From deepakzac at gmail.com Tue Feb 14 18:27:42 2006 From: deepakzac at gmail.com (Deepak Thomas) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 23:57:42 +0530 Subject: Like to contribute Message-ID: Hi I am a project trainee at IBM and wold like to contribute to the Blinux project but I am not sure how. I would love to develop something for my project at IBM.Could someone please point me in the right direction. Regards, Deepak -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eklhad at comcast.net Tue Feb 14 13:32:27 2006 From: eklhad at comcast.net (Karl Dahlke) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 13:32:27 Subject: Like to contribute Message-ID: <20060114133227.eklhad@comcast.net> I am actively seeking developers for the edbrowse project. http://edbrowse.sourceforge.net Get a sourceforge account (not a bad idea in any case) and contact me for more information. Karl Dahlke From knghtbrd at bluecherry.net Wed Feb 15 10:19:05 2006 From: knghtbrd at bluecherry.net (T. Joseph CARTER) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 02:19:05 -0800 Subject: edbrowse In-Reply-To: <20060114133227.eklhad@comcast.net> References: <20060114133227.eklhad@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20060215101905.GB12743@d172-104.uoregon.edu> On Tue, Feb 14, 2006 at 01:32:27PM +0000, Karl Dahlke wrote: > I am actively seeking developers for the edbrowse project. > > http://edbrowse.sourceforge.net > > Get a sourceforge account (not a bad idea in any case) > and contact me for more information. This is kinda cool, though I am not sure whether you should be given an award or shot for putting an ed-like interface on web browsing. In all rights that means we should give you the award, then shoot you. *smile* I was kinda interested in this project, but I don't really see the code as maintainable in its present form. fetchmail.c at 1200ish lines is not too bad for a big project, but html.c at more than three times that without a single tab anywhere in the source code ... is kinda frustrating actually. Most totally blind developers don't really care much about indentation, but those of us who have some vision find unindented code very hard to read. It's like reading email without paragraph boundaries. I can tell you from experience that much at least is as annoying in Braille as it is in print. I know this because I wrote a tool to reformat text and cut down on the level of whitespace found in print. A bug in the software caused it to basically eliminate all paragraph boundaries and wrap text into blocks. That particular bug got fixed real fast. *grin* -- "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit." -- Aristotle From samuel.thibault at ens-lyon.org Wed Feb 15 10:52:20 2006 From: samuel.thibault at ens-lyon.org (Samuel Thibault) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 11:52:20 +0100 Subject: edbrowse In-Reply-To: <20060215101905.GB12743@d172-104.uoregon.edu> References: <20060114133227.eklhad@comcast.net> <20060215101905.GB12743@d172-104.uoregon.edu> Message-ID: <20060215105220.GA4216@implementation.labri.fr> Hi, T. Joseph CARTER, le Wed 15 Feb 2006 02:19:05 -0800, a ?crit : > I was kinda interested in this project, but I don't really see the code as > maintainable in its present form. fetchmail.c at 1200ish lines is not too > bad for a big project, but html.c at more than three times that without a > single tab anywhere in the source code ... is kinda frustrating actually. Ouch, indeed ! Karl, you should really puts indentation. Else you will probably get very limited little help from people. You can use tabs for indentation (or just pass your source code through indent) and ask your editor to set them to a single space (for vim for instance, :set ts=1 and :set sw=1) Regards, Samuel From knghtbrd at bluecherry.net Wed Feb 15 11:29:13 2006 From: knghtbrd at bluecherry.net (T. Joseph CARTER) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 03:29:13 -0800 Subject: Like to contribute In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060215112913.GC12743@d172-104.uoregon.edu> I haven't really gotten involved with existing projects, so I probably can't do a whole lot for you beyond tell you what kind of thing I'd like to see. Since I don't know if you'll get a better answer here, that's what I'm going to do.. *smile* Speakup currently depends either on a hardware synthesizer or a software one (usually flite) initialized after booting the system. One of the speakup projects is tuxtalk, which is based on rsynth. The speech quality is pretty terrible, and I don't know if it's actually in a usable state right now. I'd like to see this improved at least to the point it can be used long enough to fix a broken system to the point that a better software synth can be loaded. I think it'd also be pretty cool to see tuxtalk and a very simple line reader added to GNU GRUB so that a person can actually manage their system's startup without vision. Another kind of cool project out there is speech dispatcher, which aims to be a better userspace speech server than the typical emacspeak server. (Emacspeak servers must either be written in TCL or implement a TCL script parser. They lack index-reporting (as far as I can tell), and there is no documentation outside of emacspeak's source code to tell you what commands do what. Additionally, because there's no documented and versioned API, you run into the problem where speech servers are distributed seperately and for less common synths happen to not actually work anymore..) The main limitation of Speech Dispatcher at the moment is that it pretty much uses Festival (not flite, so you'll get better speech and use more resources to get it.) It's modular enough that more synth backends can be written, but right now they pretty much tell you to use Festival. It'd be good to see ViaVoice/TTSynth/Eloquence support as another software option, same with the Linux DECtalk runtime. Lifting some support from Speakup for other synths (or even implementing something so that you can use the Speakup drivers as a backend from Speech Dispatcher) would be nice. The last one is a personal nit I may address myself one of these days. I just can't seem to get the hang of yasr. I mean, I can tell I've got it working for some definition of working, but what it reads makes no sense and what it doesn't read makes less. Most people use speakup nowadays, but speakup is pretty much tied to Linux. yasr theoretically works on pretty much any UNIX system (I've compiled it on a Mac with a little bit of work..) I'd like to see yasr behave the way speakup does, or as close to it as possible. In order to explain how I got to these things being important, I probably have to explain what I've been working with a bit. I discovered how pathological emacspeak speech servers were when I tried to make yasr to something useful on my Linux box and on my Mac, which has a decent enough software synth available almost immediately even under single-user. Because yasr wanted an emacspeak server and other things seemed to support it as an option, I tried to write one based on the eflite source and reading one of the TCL servers for a synth I knew how the codes for. Essentially, I never got the hang of yasr to the point I could actually use it as the only access mechanism, and that was enough to make the effort of trying to make another emacspeak server no longer worth it. Emacspeak's speech server API is unversioned, has changed over time so that the TCL server I was using (Accent) no longer works correctly, is basically undocumented outside of the emacspeak source code itself, and requires that you basically write in TCL or write a TCL command processor. I can't say that eflite's implementation of the latter is robust because I gave up on it before I actually understood the code. *grin* What I am working on that actually got me started down that road is essentially a software suite similar to that found on most notetakers, designed with an audio interface. Emacspeak is cool and all, but it isn't something a person can just pick up, especially if you're trying to learn both it and emacs at the same time. Anyway, the reason for the work on the Mac is that my laptop is a Powerbook and I do as much development there as on a Linux desktop. I'd pretty much decided emacspeak speech servers weren't the way to go, so that left me looking for alternatives. Speakup has lots of drivers, but they're pretty much tied to the Linux kernel. Speech Dispatcher seems like the ideal thing to standardize on, but it pretty much requires Festival at the moment, and Festival can only output to disk on a Mac, and I don't really like Festival's audio much anyway. *smile* So I am doing what everyone else has done thus far for the time being: I wrote a simple speech API for my own code, and I've written backends for both Macintalk and a serial DECtalk (which is new--I no longer have a working Accent unfortunately.) It works well, and I plan to add support for Speech Dispatcher later on. At that point I may port my existing backends to Speech Dispatcher and migrate to using that exclusively. What's really funny about all of this is that in the end, the primary thing that'll do the talking for my software is the soft synth runtime for either the DECtalk or ViaVoice/TTSynth/Eloquence/whatever, whichever I can license more affordably for small quantity (under a thousand) distribution for Linux on the XScale architecture. I know ViaVoice runs on XScale and is available for x86 for a low per-unit cost, but I don't currently know that the people providing the latter support the former. OTOH I know that I can get DECtalk software for Linux XScale, but have no idea what it's going to cost me to do it. Everything I've done related to getting speech out of the systems I am currently using is just for development and because the software would sure be convenient on my laptop if I'm going through the trouble of writing it anyway. *smile* I'm sure you were hoping to hear that things are a little more coordinated with more cooperative efforts than what I've described. That's why I am really pretty excited about things like Speech Dispatcher. It needs many more backends before it gets adopted, but if that happens, it could go a long way toward unifying how we make things talk in the free software and academic communities. Of course, lots of drivers doesn't guarantee wide adoption by projects will automatically follow. On Tue, Feb 14, 2006 at 11:57:42PM +0530, Deepak Thomas wrote: > I am a project trainee at IBM and wold like to contribute to the Blinux > project but I am not sure how. I would love to develop something for my > project at IBM.Could someone please point me in the right direction. -- "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit." -- Aristotle From knghtbrd at bluecherry.net Thu Feb 16 02:31:08 2006 From: knghtbrd at bluecherry.net (T. Joseph CARTER) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 18:31:08 -0800 Subject: edbrowse In-Reply-To: <20060215105220.GA4216@implementation.labri.fr> References: <20060114133227.eklhad@comcast.net> <20060215101905.GB12743@d172-104.uoregon.edu> <20060215105220.GA4216@implementation.labri.fr> Message-ID: <20060216023107.GD16739@d172-104.uoregon.edu> On Wed, Feb 15, 2006 at 11:52:20AM +0100, Samuel Thibault wrote: > T. Joseph CARTER, le Wed 15 Feb 2006 02:19:05 -0800, a ?crit : > > I was kinda interested in this project, but I don't really see the code as > > maintainable in its present form. fetchmail.c at 1200ish lines is not too > > bad for a big project, but html.c at more than three times that without a > > single tab anywhere in the source code ... is kinda frustrating actually. > > Ouch, indeed ! > > Karl, you should really puts indentation. Else you will probably get > very limited little help from people. Samuel, Karl pointed out in an offlist reply the obvious--that indentation doesn't matter or help a totally blind person much. (I'd argue it does if they have a Braille display, but these things are expensive as we all know far too well..) > You can use tabs for indentation (or just pass your source code through > indent) and ask your editor to set them to a single space (for vim for > instance, :set ts=1 and :set sw=1) vim's cmode is pretty handy for that, but I wonder if it wouldn't be an irritant anyway because you wouldn't know the imdemtation level it automatically gave you that way. Vim sometimes does dumb things with its automatic indent if you put code in macros and the like. I always turn off auto indent when working with only speech because I can ask for the virtual cursor position if I need to, but I often don't because I know how many times I just pressed the tab key after pressing enter. -- "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit." -- Aristotle From samuel.thibault at ens-lyon.org Thu Feb 16 07:59:05 2006 From: samuel.thibault at ens-lyon.org (Samuel Thibault) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 08:59:05 +0100 Subject: edbrowse In-Reply-To: <20060216023107.GD16739@d172-104.uoregon.edu> References: <20060114133227.eklhad@comcast.net> <20060215101905.GB12743@d172-104.uoregon.edu> <20060215105220.GA4216@implementation.labri.fr> <20060216023107.GD16739@d172-104.uoregon.edu> Message-ID: <20060216075905.GT4279@implementation.labri.fr> Hi, T. Joseph CARTER, le Wed 15 Feb 2006 18:31:08 -0800, a ?crit : > On Wed, Feb 15, 2006 at 11:52:20AM +0100, Samuel Thibault wrote: > > T. Joseph CARTER, le Wed 15 Feb 2006 02:19:05 -0800, a ?crit : > > > I was kinda interested in this project, but I don't really see the code as > > > maintainable in its present form. fetchmail.c at 1200ish lines is not too > > > bad for a big project, but html.c at more than three times that without a > > > single tab anywhere in the source code ... is kinda frustrating actually. > > > > Ouch, indeed ! > > > > Karl, you should really puts indentation. Else you will probably get > > very limited little help from people. > > Samuel, Karl pointed out in an offlist reply the obvious--that indentation > doesn't matter or help a totally blind person much. I know. I've been working with people that have a braille display for some time now. And just like I did my best to produce code like if(h[i] == (char)0xe2 && i < h_len-1 && h[i+1] == (char)0x80) { ++i; continue; } (i.e. as much as possible on the same line for better blind readibility), Karl should try his best to put tabs for non-blind people, at least through indent. > > You can use tabs for indentation (or just pass your source code through > > indent) and ask your editor to set them to a single space (for vim for > > instance, :set ts=1 and :set sw=1) > > vim's cmode is pretty handy for that, but I wonder if it wouldn't be an > irritant anyway because you wouldn't know the imdemtation level it > automatically gave you that way. In speech mode, I can understand that indeed. Then there is the automatic indent solution. It doesn't disturb people reading code through speech, and it helps people reading code through braille or vision. No reason not to do it. Regards, Samuel From jasonw at ariel.its.unimelb.edu.au Thu Feb 16 07:42:55 2006 From: jasonw at ariel.its.unimelb.edu.au (Jason White) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 18:42:55 +1100 Subject: edbrowse In-Reply-To: <20060216023107.GD16739@d172-104.uoregon.edu> References: <20060114133227.eklhad@comcast.net> <20060215101905.GB12743@d172-104.uoregon.edu> <20060215105220.GA4216@implementation.labri.fr> <20060216023107.GD16739@d172-104.uoregon.edu> Message-ID: <20060216074255.GA8018@jdc> On Wed, Feb 15, 2006 at 06:31:08PM -0800, T. Joseph CARTER wrote: > Samuel, Karl pointed out in an offlist reply the obvious--that indentation > doesn't matter or help a totally blind person much. (I'd argue it does if > they have a Braille display, but these things are expensive as we all > know far too well..) They are expensive but that's beside the point. Quite a few people have braille displays, especially in Europe where, apparently, some governments offer subsedies or even meet the entire cost. Indentation is helpful when reading code with a braille display, as it is if one has speech software that announces the indentation level at the start of each line. Emacspeak is a superb example. I think a braille display is ideal for programming. In writing shell scripts and reading code for various other purposes I've found it much more convenient to work in braille - yes, I'm one of the lucky ones who found funding with which to purchase a braille display, in a country where state subsedies for such equipment aren't offered. My advice: indent your code properly if you want others to read it, and disability has nothing to do with it. From eklhad at comcast.net Thu Feb 16 21:00:35 2006 From: eklhad at comcast.net (Karl Dahlke) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 21:00:35 Subject: indented code Message-ID: <20060116210035.eklhad@comcast.net> Well - I seem to have inadvertantly started a fire storm. Didn't mean to do that. Let me mention a couple of things, and then I'll (mostly) give you the last word. I have been writing software professionally for 25 years, and personally, I have no use for indentation. Nor would I want my adapter to speak the indent level of each line; that would really slow me down. I do put a comment on each right brace, describing the block or function that is being closed off. I suppose it's a verbal type of indent. I also have the B command in edbrowse, for balancing braces, to go to the "other" brace. Now that I'm use to this feature, I don't know what I'd do without it. On the other hand, it's clear to me how indenting helps the sighted community. I can't deny it. (I could see a long time ago.) So a compromise is called for. After some investigation I believe code can be automatically indented in a way that does not hinder the blind, and is still acceptable to the sighted. By "acceptable" I'm using the coding standards set forth in the linux kernel. I don't want to waste extra lines on braces, and neither does Linus. So you indent like this if(x) { stuff; } else { more stuff; } Similar formatting applies for struct/enum definitions. The function is the only time we invest an entire line in a single open brace. int foo(int x, int y) { function stuff; } /* foo */ Indent can be told to format in precisely this way. The following .indent.pro file seems to do a pretty good job for all parties, and I will probably apply it to my edbrowse code in the next few days. // leave blanklines alone! -nsob -ncdb -nbad -nbap -nbbb // Measure levels of indenting - I prefer 4 spaces, rather than 2. // But 8 would force the tab indenting. -i4 -bli4 -cbi4 -lp -ci0 -pi0 -cli0 -di2 // Braces are set by the coding standards of the linux kernel -br -brs -cdw -ce -nbs // Breaking long lines? -l80 -hnl -psl -nbbo // Inserting spaces - usually I don't want it -nprs -npcs -ncs -nsaf -nsai -nsaw -ss Any thoughts on these settings, from a blind or sighted perspective? Karl Dahlke From knghtbrd at bluecherry.net Fri Feb 17 07:42:29 2006 From: knghtbrd at bluecherry.net (T. Joseph CARTER) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 23:42:29 -0800 Subject: indented code In-Reply-To: <20060116210035.eklhad@comcast.net> References: <20060116210035.eklhad@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20060217074229.GA19513@d172-104.uoregon.edu> Karl Dahlke wrote: > Well - I seem to have inadvertantly started a fire storm. > Didn't mean to do that. I'm just happy to see that this list is alive. the users list is for users who mostly don't care about code details. [.. Snip stuff about jumping to matching braces ..] > Now that I'm use to this feature, I don't know what I'd do without it. It sure is handy, especially for code where the opening brace doesn't begin a newline. In my own code, I start a new line for a new brace, but I try to match the style of the code I'm working on where possible. [.. Snip stuff on using indent ..] There's some option to indent that causes it to indent foo and *bar differently because *bar has the * on it. This option is annoying, and I never did figure out whether that can be seperately controlled from the option that seperates types from identifiers in variable declarations. My advice: have indent just have one space as in int foo; rather than try to do the visual alignment thing in that case. It just comes out ugly. GNU indent allows you to specify -ts 4 if you prefer 4 space indent with hard tabs. I have vim set up this way by default, but have actually set up a macro to cycle between that an a couple of other typical settings people use. Once again, I code my way, but for other people's projects I try to code their way. Linus Torvalds is widely quoted recommending that you print a copy of the GNU Coding Standards, and then burn them as a symbolic gesture. This isn't a bad idea. The one formatting thing I never understood about GNU is that they want a newline and a two-space indent for an opening brace, then another newline and two-space indent for the content of the block. I start a new line for an opening brace to keep blocks' opening and closing points easily visible. Contents of blocks I indent sure, but not the opening and closing braces. That's just strange. -- "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit." -- Aristotle From samuel.thibault at ens-lyon.org Fri Feb 17 08:35:14 2006 From: samuel.thibault at ens-lyon.org (Samuel Thibault) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 09:35:14 +0100 Subject: indented code In-Reply-To: <20060116210035.eklhad@comcast.net> References: <20060116210035.eklhad@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20060217083514.GN4276@implementation.labri.fr> Hi, Karl Dahlke, le Thu 16 Feb 2006 21:00:35 +0000, a ?crit : > Indent can be told to format in precisely this way. > The following .indent.pro file seems to do a pretty good job for all parties, > and I will probably apply it to my edbrowse code in the next few days. Great :) > Any thoughts on these settings, from a blind or sighted perspective? It seems good, I have just a few remarks: - Why using 4 spaces? You can just use tabs and let the user choose his tab size. - Keeping if(n < CHUNKSIZE) break; on a single line doesn't hurt that much for sighted people, and is quite more readable on braille devices. However, I couldn't find an indent option for preventing him from adding a newline. Maybe we could ask upstream for such option. Regards, Samuel From eklhad at comcast.net Fri Feb 17 05:06:03 2006 From: eklhad at comcast.net (Karl Dahlke) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 05:06:03 Subject: indenting with tabs Message-ID: <20060117050603.eklhad@comcast.net> Setting spacing = 8 and making the program use tabs across the board, As Samuel suggested, is a thought that I also had, independently, and I like it, for the reason you gave (people can change their tab settings as they like), and, if I ever do want to "hear" the indent level, I just list the line and listen to the tabs, instead of having a mix of tabs and spaces, or many spaces. And it's easy to search for /^}/ to jump to the end of the block that you are in the middle of - not having to count out spaces etc. And I agree also, if(foo) bar(); should stay on one line, but indent seems incapable of doing that. Sigh. I guess that's something I'll have to give up as part of the compromise. A downer on tabs if you go 5 or 6 levels in, is that even a modest line gets cut into many pieces by the 80 column limit, and that's pretty goofy. I know, I know, properly structured code doesn't go 5 or 6 levels in, I know, but the code that I write in a hurry, that I'm not paid to write, sometimes does that. That's just the way it is. Another problem with the tabs, assuming the sighted person might have the freedom to change the spacing thereof, is that tabs are also used in the middle of a line, to push a short comment off to the right. This will get mucked up if the user changes tab = 4 for a lesser indent. Well, you know, I don't think people change their tab settings very often, so I'm not going to worry about that. The benefits of single-char tabs on the left kinda win the day, I think. So here is my revised .indent.pro file for comment. I would like to get this right, or at least reasonably satisfactory to a wide majority, then get on with my life. As you see, I had no luck getting -ci0 to work. That's the second "problem" with indent in only 20 minutes. Guess everyone just runs indent -gnu and doesn't check these things out. Well, with its faults, it's still the best program for the job, kinda like democracy. // leave blanklines alone! -nsob -ncdb -nbad -nbap -nbbb // Measure levels of indenting - use 8 spaces = one tab // The sighted user can set tab to anything he likes, // and I don't have to listen to a mix of tabs and spaces, or many spaces, // if I want to discern the indent level. -ut -ts8 -i8 -bli0 -cbi0 -nlp // I really want -ci0, but that doesn't work! // So I'm settling for ci3, which acts like -lp when an if statement // is involved, and those are the ones that are usually long anyways. -ci3 -ip0 -pi0 -cli0 -di2 // Braces are set by the coding standards of the linux kernel -br -brs -cdw -ce -bs // Breaking long lines. -l80 -hnl -psl -nbbo // Inserting spaces - usually I don't want it -nprs -npcs -ncs // can't prevent the space in switch (x) -nsaf -nsai -nsaw // the space in while(x--) ; is a good thing -ss Karl Dahlke From sielskr at sonic.net Fri Feb 17 15:44:31 2006 From: sielskr at sonic.net (Richard Uhtenwoldt) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 07:44:31 -0800 Subject: indenting with tabs In-Reply-To: <20060117050603.eklhad@comcast.net> References: <20060117050603.eklhad@comcast.net> Message-ID: Karl Dahlke writes: >A downer on tabs if you go 5 or 6 levels in, >is that even a modest line gets cut into many pieces by the 80 column limit, The Linux kernel exceeds that 80-column limit in many places, and it is not too annoying to sighted users with 80-column displays _if_ it does not happen with too many lines. It's when most of the lines in a function exceed the limit or when 10 lines in a row do that it becomes too annoying. I'm a sighted user with an 80-column display. (I use the Linux in text mode on a old, small monitor.) >and that's pretty goofy. >I know, I know, properly structured code doesn't go >5 or 6 levels in, I know, but the code that I write in a hurry, >that I'm not paid to write, sometimes does that. >That's just the way it is. > >Another problem with the tabs, assuming the sighted person might have the >freedom to change the spacing thereof, is that tabs are also used >in the middle of a line, to push a short comment off to the right. >This will get mucked up if the user changes tab = 4 for a lesser indent. >Well, you know, I don't think people change their tab settings >very often, so I'm not going to worry about that. >The benefits of single-char tabs on the left kinda win the day, I think. > >So here is my revised .indent.pro file for comment. >I would like to get this right, or at least reasonably satisfactory >to a wide majority, then get on with my life. >As you see, I had no luck getting -ci0 to work. >That's the second "problem" with indent in only 20 minutes. >Guess everyone just runs indent -gnu and doesn't check these things out. >Well, with its faults, it's still the best program for the job, >kinda like democracy. > >// leave blanklines alone! >-nsob >-ncdb >-nbad >-nbap >-nbbb >// Measure levels of indenting - use 8 spaces = one tab >// The sighted user can set tab to anything he likes, >// and I don't have to listen to a mix of tabs and spaces, or many spaces, >// if I want to discern the indent level. >-ut >-ts8 >-i8 >-bli0 >-cbi0 >-nlp >// I really want -ci0, but that doesn't work! >// So I'm settling for ci3, which acts like -lp when an if statement >// is involved, and those are the ones that are usually long anyways. >-ci3 >-ip0 >-pi0 >-cli0 >-di2 >// Braces are set by the coding standards of the linux kernel >-br >-brs >-cdw >-ce >-bs >// Breaking long lines. >-l80 >-hnl >-psl >-nbbo >// Inserting spaces - usually I don't want it >-nprs >-npcs >-ncs >// can't prevent the space in switch (x) >-nsaf >-nsai >-nsaw >// the space in while(x--) ; is a good thing >-ss > >Karl Dahlke > >_______________________________________________ >Blinux-develop mailing list >Blinux-develop at redhat.com >https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-develop From dnkeys at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 17 16:35:56 2006 From: dnkeys at sbcglobal.net (Dan Keys) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 08:35:56 -0800 Subject: indenting with tabs In-Reply-To: References: <20060117050603.eklhad@comcast.net> Message-ID: Hi, I know this isn't the subject, but how do I unsubscribe from this list. Thanks and I apologise for jumping in on top of this subject thread. On Feb 17, 2006, at 7:44 AM, Richard Uhtenwoldt wrote: > Karl Dahlke writes: >> A downer on tabs if you go 5 or 6 levels in, >> is that even a modest line gets cut into many pieces by the 80 >> column limit, > > The Linux kernel exceeds that 80-column limit in many places, > and it is not too annoying to sighted users with 80-column > displays _if_ it does not happen with too many lines. > > It's when most of the lines in a function exceed the limit > or when 10 lines in a row do that it becomes too annoying. > > I'm a sighted user with an 80-column display. (I use the > Linux in text mode on a old, small monitor.) > > >> and that's pretty goofy. >> I know, I know, properly structured code doesn't go >> 5 or 6 levels in, I know, but the code that I write in a hurry, >> that I'm not paid to write, sometimes does that. >> That's just the way it is. >> >> Another problem with the tabs, assuming the sighted person might >> have the >> freedom to change the spacing thereof, is that tabs are also used >> in the middle of a line, to push a short comment off to the right. >> This will get mucked up if the user changes tab = 4 for a lesser >> indent. >> Well, you know, I don't think people change their tab settings >> very often, so I'm not going to worry about that. >> The benefits of single-char tabs on the left kinda win the day, I >> think. >> >> So here is my revised .indent.pro file for comment. >> I would like to get this right, or at least reasonably satisfactory >> to a wide majority, then get on with my life. >> As you see, I had no luck getting -ci0 to work. >> That's the second "problem" with indent in only 20 minutes. >> Guess everyone just runs indent -gnu and doesn't check these >> things out. >> Well, with its faults, it's still the best program for the job, >> kinda like democracy. >> >> // leave blanklines alone! >> -nsob >> -ncdb >> -nbad >> -nbap >> -nbbb >> // Measure levels of indenting - use 8 spaces = one tab >> // The sighted user can set tab to anything he likes, >> // and I don't have to listen to a mix of tabs and spaces, or many >> spaces, >> // if I want to discern the indent level. >> -ut >> -ts8 >> -i8 >> -bli0 >> -cbi0 >> -nlp >> // I really want -ci0, but that doesn't work! >> // So I'm settling for ci3, which acts like -lp when an if statement >> // is involved, and those are the ones that are usually long anyways. >> -ci3 >> -ip0 >> -pi0 >> -cli0 >> -di2 >> // Braces are set by the coding standards of the linux kernel >> -br >> -brs >> -cdw >> -ce >> -bs >> // Breaking long lines. >> -l80 >> -hnl >> -psl >> -nbbo >> // Inserting spaces - usually I don't want it >> -nprs >> -npcs >> -ncs >> // can't prevent the space in switch (x) >> -nsaf >> -nsai >> -nsaw >> // the space in while(x--) ; is a good thing >> -ss >> >> Karl Dahlke >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Blinux-develop mailing list >> Blinux-develop at redhat.com >> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-develop > > _______________________________________________ > Blinux-develop mailing list > Blinux-develop at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-develop From rubini at prosa.it Fri Feb 17 16:45:51 2006 From: rubini at prosa.it (Alessandro Rubini) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 17:45:51 +0100 Subject: indenting with tabs In-Reply-To: References: <20060117050603.eklhad@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20060217164551.GA18993@mail.gnudd.com> > I know this isn't the subject, but how do I unsubscribe from this list. > Thanks and I apologise for jumping in on top of this subject thread. When I subscribed in April 1999, I send email with "subscribe" as subject to blinux-develop-request at redhat.com . This used to be working with all mail servers. Nowadays, everybody uses mailman advertising the web interface, but the "-request" address is supported as well. Still better: these lines are included in all messages: > _______________________________________________ > Blinux-develop mailing list > Blinux-develop at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-develop So please use either the blinux-develop-request@ or the url above. /alessandro -- A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From j.chetwynd at btinternet.com Sat Feb 18 09:50:53 2006 From: j.chetwynd at btinternet.com (Jonathan Chetwynd) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 09:50:53 +0000 Subject: SVG, blinux and IBM-HPR In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D7A73EB-23A5-4F45-A09E-FD9B7BB12D96@btinternet.com> It would be a significant step if IBM Home Page Reader (or another talking web browser) could read Scaleable Vector Graphics. SVG is a W3C standard for web graphics. please excuse cross-posting Jonathan Chetwynd http://www.peepo.co.uk is one possible test case. SVG is popular with accessibility aware developers but this vital area is handicapped by the lack of appropriate tools On 14 Feb 2006, at 18:27, Deepak Thomas wrote: Hi I am a project trainee at IBM and wold like to contribute to the Blinux project but I am not sure how. I would love to develop something for my project at IBM.Could someone please point me in the right direction. Regards, Deepak _______________________________________________ Blinux-develop mailing list Blinux-develop at redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-develop From j.chetwynd at btinternet.com Sat Feb 18 11:12:54 2006 From: j.chetwynd at btinternet.com (Jonathan Chetwynd) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 11:12:54 +0000 Subject: SVG, blinux and IBM-HPR Message-ID: It would be a significant step if IBM Home Page Reader (or another talking web browser) could read Scaleable Vector Graphics. SVG is a W3C standard for web graphics. please excuse cross-posting Jonathan Chetwynd http://www.peepo.co.uk is one possible test case. SVG is popular with accessibility aware developers but this vital area is handicapped by the lack of appropriate tools On 14 Feb 2006, at 18:27, Deepak Thomas wrote: Hi I am a project trainee at IBM and wold like to contribute to the Blinux project but I am not sure how. I would love to develop something for my project at IBM.Could someone please point me in the right direction. Regards, Deepak _______________________________________________ Blinux-develop mailing list Blinux-develop at redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-develop