<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"> <meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)"> <style></style> </head> <body lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="word-wrap:break-word"> <div class="WordSection1"> <p class="MsoNormal">Hi All,<o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal">Pedro is 100% correct. The primary use case and the reason I added this is to remove library duplication across all the .efi files. This is actually super valuable because LZMA compression is becoming ineffective because compiler optimization is getting so good that the patterns for a library across binaries don’t match very well anymore. For XIP PEI code… it will really help and would be very timely since the transition of PEI from 32-bit to 64-bit is going to increase the size of PEI by ~20%.<o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal">Nate<o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt"> <div> <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"> <p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Pedro Falcato <pedro.falcato@gmail.com> <br> <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 13, 2022 11:43 AM<br> <b>To:</b> edk2-devel-groups-io <devel@edk2.groups.io>; Marvin Häuser <mhaeuser@posteo.de><br> <b>Cc:</b> discuss@edk2.groups.io; adachristine18@gmail.com; Desimone, Nathaniel L <nathaniel.l.desimone@intel.com>; Shi, Steven <steven.shi@intel.com><br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: [edk2-devel] [edk2-discuss] GSoC Proposal<o:p></o:p></p> </div> </div> <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <div> <div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal">Hi Marvin, Ada,<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal">Some comments:<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal">I don't think the purpose of the dynamic linker is to treat EFI as a complete operating system, but to try to eliminate the static linking that may be needlessly duplicating<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal">code that could instead be put in a single dynamic library. For instance, MdePkg and MdeModulePkg are linked into a *lot* of .efi, instead of being just a library. It'd be nice to see some<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal">numbers on this (something like Google's bloaty could be run on every .efi file, in order to understand how much file space we would actually save).<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal">Other comments inline.<o:p></o:p></p> </div> </div> <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Apr 13, 2022 at 4:15 PM Marvin Häuser <<a href="mailto:mhaeuser@posteo.de">mhaeuser@posteo.de</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"> <div> <div> <div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> </div> <div> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">On 13. Apr 2022, at 16:38, Ada Christine <<a href="mailto:adachristine18@gmail.com" target="_blank">adachristine18@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p> </blockquote> </div> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <div> <p class="MsoNormal">i was replying via the <a href="http://groups.io" target="_blank"> groups.io</a> web interface, I'm guessing that messed up<br> the thread? i haven't used mailing lists before and don't know how they<br> work. I'll use my mail client from here on.<br> <br> I'm on board with not treating EFI as an operating system. the more i think<br> about it the more it looks like scope creep.<o:p></o:p></p> </div> </blockquote> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal">Agreed.<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <p class="MsoNormal"><br> <br> <o:p></o:p></p> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <div> <p class="MsoNormal">I'm not quite as enthusiastic<br> about it as i was at first glance.<br> <br> I'm still keen on doing my gsoc proposal for edk, though, and even if this<br> task and the acpica application are decided to be out of scope unit<br> testing, <o:p></o:p></p> </div> </blockquote> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal">How about fuzz-testing? This is also something edk2 needs quite badly. At Acidanthera, we compile edk2 code in userspace outside the edk2 build system and fuzz with dummy applications.<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> </div> </div> </div> </blockquote> <div> <p class="MsoNormal">Note: fuzzing is also part of the LLVM instrumentation suite (see <a href="https://llvm.org/docs/LibFuzzer.html">https://llvm.org/docs/LibFuzzer.html</a>) and is something I could happily mentor.<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"> <div> <div> <div> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <div> <p class="MsoNormal">clang integration<o:p></o:p></p> </div> </blockquote> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal">Pedro and Vitaly are looking for someone to finish ASan: <a href="https://edk2.groups.io/g/devel/topic/90010978#87991" target="_blank">https://edk2.groups.io/g/devel/topic/90010978#87991</a><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal">There are working UBSan concepts, but they also need to be mainlined.<o:p></o:p></p> </div> </div> </div> </div> </blockquote> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal">Is Vitaly going to be a mentor? I was assuming it was going to be me and some other, more senior, mentor (possibly Steven Shi, which I included in the task).<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal">Anyway, re: ASAN, if the project includes ASAN, UBSAN and possibly some other sanitizer it's quite possible that it could be considered a large project (which means more hours but a larger stipend too). Fuzzing + coverage could<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal">be very nice additions to this project idea.<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal">Also, is stress-testing a decent idea?<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"> <div> <div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><br> <br> <o:p></o:p></p> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <div> <p class="MsoNormal">and source-level debugging are all relevant to<br> my interests.<br> <br> how about your ideas for security stuff?<o:p></o:p></p> </div> </blockquote> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal">I want the entirety of MM to leverage SmmMemLib and to support SMAP. SmmMemLib would then handle UEFI->MMRAM and BaseMemoryLib would only work on MMRAM. Also evaluation of how to best avoid pointers in MM communication buffers would be nice.<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal">There also is a bunch of other stuff, like working out moving a part of CpuDxe into DxeCore to have memory protection live immediately, memory protection in PEI, a replacement for the TE format (it’s buggy and most platforms mostly abandoned it over various issues), and alternatives to guarding critical code with SMM (like allowing NVRAM commits only as part of a reboot).<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal">I personally find all of those projects very important, but I cannot promise many people agree. Especially those that impose global changes (most notably the TE replacement) may be very tedious to submit. Gladly, I believe you can submit multiple proposals (?)<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal">Best regards,<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal">Marvin<o:p></o:p></p> </div> <p class="MsoNormal"><br> <br> <o:p></o:p></p> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <div> <p class="MsoNormal">I'm not very knowledgeable about<br> trusted platform or secure boot but I'm willing to learn whatever is<br> necessary to get something spun up for my proposal.<br> <br> On Wed, Apr 13, 2022, 12:05 Marvin Häuser <<a href="mailto:mhaeuser@posteo.de" target="_blank">mhaeuser@posteo.de</a>> wrote:<br> <br> <br> <o:p></o:p></p> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal">Do you use the “reply all” option in your mail client? Looks like my CCs<o:p></o:p></p> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal">have been dropped again. Comments inline.<o:p></o:p></p> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal">On 13. Apr 2022, at 12:54, Ada Christine <<a href="mailto:adachristine18@gmail.com" target="_blank">adachristine18@gmail.com</a>><o:p></o:p></p> </blockquote> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal">wrote:<o:p></o:p></p> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal">Hi, Marvin<o:p></o:p></p> </blockquote> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> </blockquote> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal">Its similarity to my own latest experiment is the key to what grabbed my<o:p></o:p></p> </blockquote> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal">attention. I have no particular use case in mind for it, but I see its<o:p></o:p></p> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal">potential for anybody developing larger applications in that when a library<o:p></o:p></p> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal">is changed there's no need to distribute a new version of the whole binary,<o:p></o:p></p> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal">just the relevant library module.<o:p></o:p></p> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal">I really do not like the trend of treating UEFI as a full-fledged OS - it<o:p></o:p></p> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal">is not. The most used UEFI applications, OS loaders, are really not that<o:p></o:p></p> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal">huge and are distributed as part of the OS image anyway. Even for less used<o:p></o:p></p> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal">applications, you will always get a full snapshot anyhow. Gladly we don’t<o:p></o:p></p> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal">have auto-update and package management yet. :)<o:p></o:p></p> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> </blockquote> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal">I slept on it and it occurred to me that the whole thing could operate<o:p></o:p></p> </blockquote> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal">similarly to the shell protocol in that the linker/loader is itself an<o:p></o:p></p> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal">application that does a LoadImage() on the application needing dynamic<o:p></o:p></p> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal">linking facilities.<o:p></o:p></p> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal">That would mean the linker itself is shipped with every application that<o:p></o:p></p> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal">requires it? Otherwise it doesn’t make much sense for it to be an app and<o:p></o:p></p> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal">below’s problems apply.<o:p></o:p></p> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal">If however the whole plan is making the linker as a DXE and including it<o:p></o:p></p> </blockquote> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal">with the firmware, that I'm not quite as sure about. That would necessarily<o:p></o:p></p> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal">tie any applications using dynamic linking to TianoCore or any firmware<o:p></o:p></p> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal">distribution that derives from it.<o:p></o:p></p> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal">I think that was the idea referred to as “edk2 core” by Steven, but I’d<o:p></o:p></p> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal">like to hear his proposal to be sure. Virtually everyone uses edk2, so that<o:p></o:p></p> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal">itself is not the problem, but versioning is. Vendors are slow to update<o:p></o:p></p> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal">their snapshots or have just given up doing that entirely. Distributing it<o:p></o:p></p> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal">for external applications like OS loaders would mean this can be leveraged<o:p></o:p></p> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal">probably no earlier than 10 years from now. And for in-firmware things, I<o:p></o:p></p> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal">have a hard time thinking about a use-case that outweighs the drawbacks.<o:p></o:p></p> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> </blockquote> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal">To shift the topic slightly back to GSoC, however, I'm willing to work<o:p></o:p></p> </blockquote> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal">on other items on the task list. Unit testing and an ACPICA application are<o:p></o:p></p> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal">the alternative projects I had thought about. I need to choose fairly soon<o:p></o:p></p> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal">as the proposal deadline is next Tuesday. I know a tiny bit about porting<o:p></o:p></p> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal">ACPICA as I also have plans to incorporate it into my own project.<o:p></o:p></p> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal">I have a few more ideas for security stuff, but Nate did not confirm them<o:p></o:p></p> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal">as appropriate yet and I’m not here to drive you away from this specific<o:p></o:p></p> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal">task (or the others). However, I’m still curious and concerned. :)<o:p></o:p></p> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal">Best regards,<o:p></o:p></p> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal">Marvin<o:p></o:p></p> </blockquote> <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> </blockquote> <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br> <br> <br> <br> <o:p></o:p></p> </div> </blockquote> </div> </div> </div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal"></o:p></span></p> </div> </blockquote> </div> <p class="MsoNormal"><br clear="all"> <br> -- <o:p></o:p></p> <div> <div> <p class="MsoNormal">Pedro Falcato<o:p></o:p></p> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </body> </html> <div width="1" style="color:white;clear:both">_._,_._,_</div> <hr> Groups.io Links:<p> You receive all messages sent to this group. <p> <a target="_blank" href="https://edk2.groups.io/g/devel/message/88887">View/Reply Online (#88887)</a> | | <a target="_blank" href="https://groups.io/mt/90435699/1813853">Mute This Topic</a> | <a href="https://edk2.groups.io/g/devel/post">New Topic</a><br> <a href="https://edk2.groups.io/g/devel/editsub/1813853">Your Subscription</a> | <a href="mailto:devel+owner@edk2.groups.io">Contact Group Owner</a> | <a href="https://edk2.groups.io/g/devel/unsub">Unsubscribe</a> [edk2-devel-archive@redhat.com]<br> <div width="1" style="color:white;clear:both">_._,_._,_</div>