Mar 12 12:01:16 * smooge has changed the topic to: EPEL Sig meeting -- Meeting rules at http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Extras/Schedule/MeetingGuidelines -- Init process Mar 12 12:01:26 >#fedora-devel< Meeting ping: Jeff_S, knurd, mmcgrath, nirik, smooge, stahnma, quaid and everyone interested in EPEL -- EPEL meeting in #fedora-meeting now! Mar 12 12:01:47 Hi everybody; who's around for the EPEL meeting? Mar 12 12:01:49 * nirik is still here. Mar 12 12:01:56 * knurd is for a few minutes Mar 12 12:02:54 ok I forgot to update http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Extras/Schedule/MeetingGuidelines.. but they still seem relevant Mar 12 12:03:34 * mmcgrath will likely be only sort of here, still working out the FAS2 bugs Mar 12 12:03:42 anyone else here? quaid? Mar 12 12:03:52 I understand.. this meeting should be pretty short Mar 12 12:04:18 * smooge has changed the topic to: EPEL SIG Meeting | fill the steering committee; one self-nomination: Xavier Lamien| all | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/EPEL/Tasks/Misc Mar 12 12:05:08 I had asked Xavier for a self-introduction to the list, but have not heard from him on this.. anyone talked with Xavier? Mar 12 12:05:19 I haven't... Mar 12 12:06:18 * knurd hasn't Mar 12 12:06:24 * No5251 has quit ("Kein Anschluss unter dieser Nummer!") Mar 12 12:07:28 Any suggestions on the next step to do? Look for more nominations.. look over what our 'board' needs are and staff accordingly? I could not find where it says the board must be X members.. but my search-foo could be poor Mar 12 12:07:55 well, it's mostly anyone interested I think... Mar 12 12:08:09 perhaps send him a private email and ask again? and deffer till next time? Mar 12 12:08:27 we never had a hard limit Mar 12 12:09:02 the goal afaics always was 7 -- if there are one or two more it's no problem; less actually is a problem imho Mar 12 12:09:07 right now you are 7 iirc Mar 12 12:09:14 knurd, ok thanks. I was wondering if there were general guidelines on how many people were supposed to be there, and what quorum was. Mar 12 12:09:47 * cebbert (n=cebbert@nat/redhat/x-703649d7deb2a17d) has joined #fedora-meeting Mar 12 12:09:54 as I said, the goal was 7, but the world still rotates if we are a few more or less Mar 12 12:10:11 * nirik nods Mar 12 12:10:16 I actually think a few more is better, as long as they are active in either the meetings or the list Mar 12 12:10:45 Ok I will send out another private email, one to the list, and then put this for the next meeting. Mar 12 12:11:33 * smooge has changed the topic to: EPEL SIG Meeting | Status Reports | all | Build System, Packages in waiting etc Mar 12 12:12:12 Ok I sent out a general status report on Sunday, though not UTC Sunday :(. I will try and get that more automated Mar 12 12:12:30 mmcgrath, are there any issues with the current build system? Mar 12 12:12:54 smooge, what do you mean by "Packages in waiting"? Mar 12 12:13:06 we can do pushes more often if there is a need to Mar 12 12:13:07 * nirik has no knowledge of problems with the buildsys. Other than its still plague. ;) Mar 12 12:13:26 smooge: buildsys is on an old and unsupported box. Mar 12 12:13:26 I've been doing pushes about every other day or so... or trying to. Mar 12 12:13:28 Packages that are not in testing yet because they are waiting for other issues: rt3 and zenoss coems to mind Mar 12 12:13:39 * quaid is back, sorry I was delayed Mar 12 12:13:52 * smooge takes the Eric Troan noodle and slaps quaid Mar 12 12:13:55 and the builders have been crashing lately from some sort of recursive call to texpdf. Mar 12 12:14:00 those are the only two issues I know of. Mar 12 12:14:14 I have 2 things I am looking to get in: Mar 12 12:14:26 * llaumgui_ (n=llaumgui@cro34-2-82-226-153-125.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #fedora-meeting Mar 12 12:14:27 munin - blocking on 2 perl modules... need to bug spot about them. Mar 12 12:14:44 Xfce - I have done some test builds here, but need to do a bit more testing before I add them all in. Mar 12 12:15:08 ok thanks mmcgrath . The good news is that they are still building.. The bad news is that it is a not-quite-dead box.. Mar 12 12:15:41 * izaac has quit () Mar 12 12:16:08 Ok thanks nirik . Our wishlist has quite a few items on it. I need to pick up some more packages but not sure about how exactly we do 'forks' when Fedora maintainer is non-responsive Mar 12 12:16:30 smooge, we just do them in bugzilla with the Fedora maintainer CCed Mar 12 12:16:34 * llaumgui_ is now known as llaugui Mar 12 12:16:51 then he can yell if he wants to take care of the package in EPEL Mar 12 12:17:14 Well I have some bug reports in place for like john the ripper, but have not see a 'fork' for it. Maybe I did the bug report wrong Mar 12 12:17:19 yeah, give them a week to answer. Mar 12 12:17:26 I will work with nirik on this later Mar 12 12:17:50 * nirik nods Mar 12 12:18:03 * knurd has to leave soon Mar 12 12:18:09 next topic will be build reports Mar 12 12:18:10 * smooge has changed the topic to: EPEL SIG Meeting | make broken dep reports work and send them to the list | mmcgrath | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/EPEL/Tasks/Misc Mar 12 12:18:17 just a note, I'll prepare the next EPEL4 testing->stable move tomorrow Mar 12 12:18:20 I think this is a closed issue now. Mar 12 12:18:22 Thanks knurd Mar 12 12:18:29 and will likely relaize it this weekend Mar 12 12:18:59 Thanks.. that was my next one.. but since you need to leave Mar 12 12:19:00 * knurd should watch the keyboard more closely -- to many typos today Mar 12 12:19:01 knurd: sounds good. I will avoid pushing el4 after today until thats done. Mar 12 12:19:14 nirik, thx Mar 12 12:19:16 * smooge has changed the topic to: EPEL SIG Meeting | EL-4/EL-5 pushes | knurd Mar 12 12:19:50 smooge, I know, you'd prefer a exact time for the movements Mar 12 12:19:50 knurd, is it in your plans of 'easing' out that this needs to be turned over to someone else? Or are you willing/wanting to do this for the forseeable future? Mar 12 12:19:55 * fab_away (n=bellet@bellet.info) has joined #fedora-meeting Mar 12 12:20:06 but that's not that easy always Mar 12 12:20:12 * schlobinux_ (n=xavierb@AGrenoble-257-1-25-148.w86-194.abo.wanadoo.fr) has joined #fedora-meeting Mar 12 12:20:30 smooge, it's not that hard; I can take care of it in the future as well Mar 12 12:20:33 * nirik is happy to take over as long as there are good instructions. Mar 12 12:20:37 knurd, actually my goal is to have a 'set' time. Goals are something we measure by and then move when we see we can or can not meet them Mar 12 12:20:48 nirik, I updated the instructions in the wiki Mar 12 12:20:55 yeah, just haven't had a chance to look. Mar 12 12:21:11 smooge, well, I know, but life sometimes comes in between Mar 12 12:21:13 so if it turns out that we have to do it on the first and second Saturday of every month.. thats cool with me. I just want to get some 'results' to measure against Mar 12 12:21:32 And the results are that this is a volunteer project ;) Mar 12 12:21:32 I also like to have a few work and weekend days betweeen annoucements and the actualy moving Mar 12 12:21:53 that should give people a chance to respond to my "the next move will happen soon" mail Mar 12 12:22:13 knurd, would it be better if we had a 3rd channel? Or made testing just the place for stuff going into push? As in the devel -> integration -> production -> retirement model? Mar 12 12:22:13 yeah... Mar 12 12:22:36 well, there are always going to be some things maintainers aren't ready to push to stable yet. Mar 12 12:22:38 np, a 3rd channel just complicates things more without a benefit IMHO Mar 12 12:23:01 * nirik nods. Mar 12 12:23:05 I don't think a devel branch makes sense for EPEL Mar 12 12:23:09 ok cool. I want to make sure that we are not missing something Mar 12 12:23:21 it only makes sense when a new RHEL release is approaching Mar 12 12:23:43 maybe once EPEL is really big a 3rd channel might make sense Mar 12 12:23:57 but that's not the case yet Mar 12 12:24:31 ok cool. I will bring this up every couple of meetings just to make sure we havent passed the epiphany moment too far.. "You know we really could do with a 3rd channel last month" Mar 12 12:24:40 bodhi might change the whole process sooner or later again in any case Mar 12 12:24:41 But I will consider it a "Not yet" Mar 12 12:24:51 smooge, k Mar 12 12:24:56 yeah, bodhi will be nice for epel. Mar 12 12:25:07 * smooge has changed the topic to: EPEL SIG Meeting | RHEL-5.2beta Mar 12 12:25:11 * wolfy (n=lonewolf@fedora/wolfy) has joined #fedora-meeting Mar 12 12:25:12 ok this came out yesterday.. Mar 12 12:25:15 nirik, +1, as the maintainer then can decide on their own what to do Mar 12 12:25:21 * quaid missed if there is a schedule for bodhi-izing EPEL Mar 12 12:25:39 * jmbuser agrees it should 35 minutes from now Mar 12 12:25:39 quaid, the schedule afaics is "once we switched to koji" ;-) Mar 12 12:25:42 quaid: it's waiting on koji support, which is waiting on code changes in koji that no one has time for. ;( Mar 12 12:25:49 as bodhi depends a lot on koji Mar 12 12:25:49 quaid, it is problematic due to EL binaries with koji Mar 12 12:25:56 theoretically speaking :-) Mar 12 12:26:01 ====> slow typer Mar 12 12:26:14 understood Mar 12 12:26:22 * knurd leaves the keyboard for two or three minutes Mar 12 12:26:29 * quaid didn't mean to change topics, will wait for other biz Mar 12 12:26:31 Ok 5.2beta was announced yesterday. It has a lot of newer packages and will affect EPEL in some parts Mar 12 12:26:38 jmbuser: 35min? Mar 12 12:26:40 * jmbuser pardons himself - sorry Mar 12 12:26:54 wrong channel :-( Mar 12 12:26:59 smooge: did some packages in EPEL get snarfed into 5.2? Mar 12 12:27:05 smooge: cool. We will need to identify the packages from epel that got pulled in. Mar 12 12:27:16 First part that affects EPEL, 5.1 will still be around. 2 packages have been snarfed like rsyslog Mar 12 12:27:24 evil Mar 12 12:27:27 which I think was in the epel waiting Mar 12 12:27:32 we need someone on the RHEL side communicating with us on that before it happens Mar 12 12:27:41 it happened in 5.1 as well, no biggie. Mar 12 12:27:50 still ... Mar 12 12:27:51 quaid, I thought that was you :) Mar 12 12:28:07 <== Brand Communications now, far from Engineering these days Mar 12 12:28:12 we just need to identify them, and make sure the 5.2 version is newer, and make sure the epel maintainers dead.package them in epel. Mar 12 12:28:15 smooge: yeah, I need to find that person Mar 12 12:28:41 quaid, hehehe Well I will remember to type out Red Hat Enterprise Linux istead of RHEL ;) Mar 12 12:28:57 stickster: we need to talk about getting someone in the RHEL prod mgmt chain to own the EPEL relationship Mar 12 12:29:23 * quaid rolls his eyes Mar 12 12:29:26 nirik, the issue comes up with the 5.1 channel issues. Are we going to deal with them? Or just stick with the 'latest' channel Mar 12 12:29:48 we just have stuck with the latest. Mar 12 12:29:59 I think doing multiple channels is too much for us... Mar 12 12:30:10 quaid, sorry.. I spent a summer getting whacked for every RedHat versus Red Hat typing I did :) Mar 12 12:30:30 well, that one is for certain! Mar 12 12:30:49 nirik, ok.. I will need to clarify that in our documentation.. Mar 12 12:30:50 * knurd leaves now Mar 12 12:30:54 by knurd Mar 12 12:31:08 have a nice day/evening/night/whatever everyone Mar 12 12:31:11 * knurd is now known as knurd_afk Mar 12 12:31:20 night knurd_afk Mar 12 12:31:20 * smooge has changed the topic to: EPEL SIG Meeting | KojiAndBodhiForEpel | mmcgrath, _blah_ | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/EPEL/Tasks/KojiAndBodhiForEpel Mar 12 12:32:05 status on this is that no one has had the time to work on this.. I am hoping to try and scope out what needs to be done on it myself.. but have been running into 'work reorgs' and such Mar 12 12:32:15 yeah. Mar 12 12:32:54 the ideas are 1) CentOS and its delays.. so that the build system is 'open', 2) patching koji to use a 'hidden' partition with RHEL(*) binaries in it Mar 12 12:33:21 1) I have been told by a number of people is not an option. Mar 12 12:33:32 quaid: Can you write me some email about what, specifically, you need from that relationship? That might make it easier for me to find someone who wants to own it... Mar 12 12:33:51 2) there are ideas, but no one working on it... perhaps once the fedora cycle gets less frantic people will have more time. Mar 12 12:33:53 * stickster can see from above that schedule updates are one need. Mar 12 12:34:03 stickster: ok Mar 12 12:34:44 nirik, I keep hearing that on #1.. but no specifics beyond the "hidden voices behind the cloaks at black sabbat meetings" Mar 12 12:35:15 smooge: yes, it would be nice to get some sort of more concrete reason why this is a non starter... Mar 12 12:35:50 Anyway.. I think that we will need to look at #3, we go with #1 and aim for #2 in the case that our build box sleeps with the fishes finally Mar 12 12:36:24 or try and get someone/anyone to work on the #2 code issues... _blah_ was trying to... Mar 12 12:37:06 * dwmw2_AVF is now known as dwmw2_gone Mar 12 12:37:50 yes.. in either case, I think we have said pretty much what we said last time :).. Mar 12 12:38:08 yeah. ;( Still an issue, still no solution in sight. ;( Mar 12 12:38:15 stickster, can you get us a documented reason for why we need to stay with one set of binaries? Mar 12 12:38:56 smooge: ? Mar 12 12:39:22 stickster: you want the background on this issue? :) Mar 12 12:39:25 smooge: I'm Cc;ing you on that email to stickster so you can give more details on some stuff like that Mar 12 12:39:32 nirik: Correct. Mar 12 12:39:35 thanks. Mar 12 12:39:37 yeah, I reckon we're going to need to give stickster some bg love Mar 12 12:40:12 stickster: epel uses RHEL binaries to build against. Currently it does not use koji because koji requires all binaries to be in it and tagged. If we did that to RHEL, anyone could download RHEL binaries from koji. Mar 12 12:40:14 * smooge puts on his Barry White impersonation for stickster Mar 12 12:40:35 so, we need some way for koji to let us build against rhel, but not expose the binaries to the universe. Mar 12 12:40:51 or we need to use binaries that we can expose to the universe Mar 12 12:40:56 https://hosted.fedoraproject.org/koji/ticket/49 Mar 12 12:41:20 we could switch to CentOS binaries... but then we loose ppc (they don't support it) and we also get a delay after releases before they are ready. Mar 12 12:41:24 * quaid *cough* Free the RHEL bits!! *cough* Mar 12 12:41:26 and also it's probibly pretty bad PR. Mar 12 12:41:40 also EPEL are not as supportable against RHEL binaries Mar 12 12:41:51 which matters for our relationship with RHT GSS Mar 12 12:42:09 right. Some enterprise people would balk at packages not built against official rhel binaries. Mar 12 12:42:09 (support services, for the TLA impaired) Mar 12 12:42:09 Is EPEL considered "supportable" at this point? To what extent? Mar 12 12:42:18 stickster: not supportable by RHT Mar 12 12:42:20 but Mar 12 12:42:26 we do get *referenced* by RHT stuff Mar 12 12:42:32 like RHCE training Mar 12 12:42:41 "Get hg from EPEL then ..." Mar 12 12:43:06 * linuxlala (n=linuxlal@122.162.115.32) has joined #fedora-meeting Mar 12 12:43:06 I clearly believe it is important for RHT itself to have EPEL built against RHEL binaries Mar 12 12:43:14 * linuxlala has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) Mar 12 12:43:37 * wolfy has quit (Remote closed the connection) Mar 12 12:43:50 we should be more explicit than EPEL. We should be calling it Extras Packages for Enterprise Linux 4, Extras Packages for Enterprise Linux 5, etc Mar 12 12:43:53 * jwb ducks Mar 12 12:44:36 jwb, that would be Extra Packages for Red Hat Enterprise Linux EPRHEL which sounds like a drug Mar 12 12:44:50 quaid: smooge: What is option #3? Mar 12 12:45:03 Sorry, nirik should have been second there. Mar 12 12:45:32 I don't see one. Mar 12 12:45:38 I guess keep going as we are. Mar 12 12:45:45 Anyway.. I think that we will need to look at #3, we go with #1 and aim for #2 in the case that our build box sleeps with the fishes finally Mar 12 12:45:50 smooge: techically, Enterprise Linux is the (tm) Mar 12 12:46:03 * quaid saw that #3 and was confused too Mar 12 12:46:45 stickster, #3 is that we try to make ourselves flexible. If the server dies.. we will need to use solution #1 until we have patches that make koji secrative Mar 12 12:47:19 or we just stop producing EPEL until those patches become available. Mar 12 12:47:56 that is what I meant by #3 Mar 12 12:48:15 is there anything else on this? Mar 12 12:48:30 ... Mar 12 12:48:34 * smooge has changed the topic to: EPEL SIG Meeting | more mirrors | smooge | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/EPEL/Tasks/Misc Mar 12 12:48:55 Ok I sent this off to mirror list this week... and I think we have more mirrors signed up. Mar 12 12:48:59 yeah Mar 12 12:49:43 cool Mar 12 12:50:08 sorry mischan on that yeah.. Mar 12 12:50:23 forgot to find out how we can report that number. will ask mdomsch on it Mar 12 12:51:10 My final item on my list of things todo was: Marketing Mar 12 12:51:21 yeah, that Mar 12 12:51:33 * smooge has changed the topic to: EPEL SIG Meeting | marketing: Logo, Posters, etc?| smooge | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/EPEL/Tasks/Misc Mar 12 12:51:47 I put in a request for design logos on the arts page. Mar 12 12:51:54 Havent had anyone pick it up yet. Mar 12 12:51:57 stahnma and I have complementary talks _proposed_ for the Red Hat Summit; hopefully both get in Mar 12 12:52:12 Cool Mar 12 12:52:24 and I want folks from RHT marketing to get involved because it seems kind of lame for only Fedora to be promoting this :) Mar 12 12:52:39 If not.. could we propose them to Red Hat Magazine? Mar 12 12:52:44 * quaid knows that some ISV-oriented folks are aware but we haven't really pitched it to them as something to carry around for their partners Mar 12 12:53:00 smooge: good call! we can certainly write a series of articles on EPEL Mar 12 12:53:09 technical, business focuses, etc. Mar 12 12:53:26 quaid, we need this to be a two way conversation with ISV's.. we need to know what they want and what they will help sponsor Mar 12 12:53:27 * nim-nim has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) Mar 12 12:53:38 smooge: right Mar 12 12:53:42 does that make sense? Mar 12 12:54:04 sorry slow typing.. wrist wrap on Mar 12 12:54:16 yes it does Mar 12 12:54:24 one vehicle for this is the Get Involved Guide Mar 12 12:54:54 we currently have a bunch of packages that we fedorans want.. but what do the ISV's want, and how can we better manage them as they have 'special' needs (the Zenos package is a good example) Mar 12 12:55:18 * J5_ (n=quintice@nat/redhat/x-8eb1e22ed3edd75e) has joined #fedora-meeting Mar 12 12:55:48 It is open source, but since it carries its own versions of certain packages it has a stronger need to sit in /opt so its not a 'core' item. Mar 12 12:56:00 stickster: will you continue to tag-team with me on that? This is a funny marketing/technical cross-over, which is why I grabbed Mr. North America (gregdek) into the EPEL conversation Mar 12 12:56:23 that == internal selling and support about EPEL, like what we are doing with TOmen Mar 12 12:56:28 quaid: I'm writing an email to the internal program list and cc'ing you on it Mar 12 12:56:30 I would like if we can pull in Mr Europe and Ms South America too Mar 12 12:56:32 I'll include gdk too Mar 12 12:56:46 We have a Ms South America? Mar 12 12:56:47 smooge: one at a time, buddy! Mar 12 12:56:54 stickster: doesn't everyone? Mar 12 12:56:54 I can dream stickster Mar 12 12:57:03 Apparently so can quaid Mar 12 12:57:33 stickster: in fact, let's see if Tomen wants to partner with us more here; he has a desire to be involved in Fedora and it would be a great help if he helped us negotiate the partner marketing stuffs Mar 12 12:57:43 Anyway.. I was trying not to be sexist in names.. and failed. sorry Mar 12 12:58:01 ok, I need to go do a quick two-minute honey-do Mar 12 12:58:09 brb for FDSCo Mar 12 12:58:10 Ok lets go over it Mar 12 12:58:45 quaid: What does 'let's' mean -- are you emailing him, then? Mar 12 12:58:56 We need to work with Red Hat internals on a couple of issues: ISV's, marketing, and build system. We need to put a date on when we are looking for this so that we don't fall off the radar Mar 12 12:59:11 * stickster needs to track who he's supposed to tag and with what. Mar 12 12:59:16 ok.. I think we have another meeting in here... in 1 Mar 12 12:59:37 * smooge will close the meeting in 30 seconds Mar 12 12:59:53 and publish logs and todos unless I am wrong Mar 12 12:59:58 ... Mar 12 13:00:19 * smooge has changed the topic to: Channel is used by various Fedora groups and committees for their regular meetings | Note that meetings often get logged | For questions about using Fedora please ask in #fedora | See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/FedoraMeetingChannel for meeting schedule Mar 12 13:00:24 Ok sorry if we ran over..