From mike at navi.cx Tue Jul 6 12:45:19 2004 From: mike at navi.cx (Mike Hearn) Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 13:45:19 +0100 Subject: Locking down Fedora Core 2 desktop References: Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 13:45:00 +0100, Damir Dezeljin wrote: > 1. Is it possible to remotely (from SSH session) lock the desktop > (screen saver lock ?) of the local loged user? How can I achieve this? xscreensaver-command -lock > 2. Is it possible to remotely (from SSH session) log out a local loged in > user without restarting the X server (init 3 && init 5)? How can I > achieve this? gnome-session-save --kill, I think might work > 4. Is it posible to prevent a user from running not allowed applications? > I want to avoid changing 'x' bit of N binaries. I would like to costumize > a file browser to allow only browsing memory cards and copy the content > to CDs ... I also want to disallow creating shortcuts on the desktop (so > that the user will not be able to run e.g. xterm). How can I do this? I don't think there's an easy way to do this. You're better off assuming that the user can access a terminal and just ensure that root vs user stops them doing any damage. > 5. Which 'easy to use' program should I use for burning CDs? Putting a blank CD in should pop up nautilus cd burner. In spatial mode it might not be obvious how to trigger the burn process ... you might want a "Burn CD" link on the desktop which triggers nautilus in non-spatial mode for burn:/// thanks -mike From markmc at redhat.com Wed Jul 7 09:00:45 2004 From: markmc at redhat.com (Mark McLoughlin) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 10:00:45 +0100 Subject: NoMachine NX, Fedora and Terminal Services Message-ID: <1089190844.21303.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hey, I've took a more detailed look at NoMachine NX and wrote down some details: http://www.gnome.org/~markmc/a-look-at-nomachine-nx.html Now, to figure out how we might go about using this for Terminal Services in Fedora. My first guess is that only nxcomp, nxcompext, nxproxy, nxagent and nx-X11 are interesting in this context. We could probably build a package that includes all these pieces, but builds the nx-X11 package using a patch against Xorg rather than using the entire copy of XFree86 4.30 (i.e. the way vnc is built). Anyone interested in taking this on? Once we have the package in place, its not immediately obvious to me the best way to actually integrate it so that it can be easily used nicely for terminal services. The problem here is that you want to somehow, from the client terminal, activate an nxagent on the server, get GDM to manage that display and then start an rfbproxy on the client which displays to the local X server. The way this is done with the NoMachine pacakges is, AFAICS, through nxclient using SSH to invoke to their proprietary nxnode/nxserver commands on the server which does this kind of setup. We could possibly take the same approach requiring the terminal server to have the SSH host key of each the client machines to allow the clients to run an nxagent. It'd be really nice to see someone try something like this out... However, since one of the reasons NX is interesting is its potential for implementing the session re-connection/mobility feature it might make more sense to take a similar approach to the one we took for VNC - dedicate a port for NX connections, when GDM gets an incoming connection on that port spawn an nxagent with a login screen, keep track of NX sessions and allow re-connections. Anyway, purposely leaving this hanging for now. Hopefully either someone will take a further poke at this now or we'll re-visit it again sometime in the future. (Oh, one question I forgot is whether or not NX is really interesting for terminal services. Low bandwidth requirements might only really come to the fore for things like connecting to your office machine from home or a sysadmin in the head office administering a desktop in a branch office. So, on a fast local network does NX really noticeably improve the usability of an X terminal?) Thanks, Mark. From mike at navi.cx Wed Jul 7 09:55:13 2004 From: mike at navi.cx (Mike Hearn) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 10:55:13 +0100 Subject: NoMachine NX, Fedora and Terminal Services References: <1089190844.21303.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 10:00:45 +0100, Mark McLoughlin wrote: > (Oh, one question I forgot is whether or not NX is really interesting > for terminal services. Low bandwidth requirements might only really come > to the fore for things like connecting to your office machine from home > or a sysadmin in the head office administering a desktop in a branch > office. So, on a fast local network does NX really noticeably improve > the usability of an X terminal?) Wouldn't a low bandwidth solution allow you to fit more terminals onto the same piece of wire without reconfiguring your network? I don't know how common that would be, but given that current thick clients don't use large amounts of bandwidth I'd guess converting them all to thin clients would place a big load on the wire itself. It'd be nice if less/no reconfiguration was needed. thanks -mike From markmc at redhat.com Wed Jul 7 11:10:05 2004 From: markmc at redhat.com (Mark McLoughlin) Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 12:10:05 +0100 Subject: NoMachine NX, Fedora and Terminal Services In-Reply-To: References: <1089190844.21303.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1089198605.21303.56.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-07-07 at 10:55, Mike Hearn wrote: > On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 10:00:45 +0100, Mark McLoughlin wrote: > > (Oh, one question I forgot is whether or not NX is really interesting > > for terminal services. Low bandwidth requirements might only really come > > to the fore for things like connecting to your office machine from home > > or a sysadmin in the head office administering a desktop in a branch > > office. So, on a fast local network does NX really noticeably improve > > the usability of an X terminal?) > > Wouldn't a low bandwidth solution allow you to fit more terminals onto the > same piece of wire without reconfiguring your network? > > I don't know how common that would be, but given that current thick > clients don't use large amounts of bandwidth I'd guess converting them all > to thin clients would place a big load on the wire itself. It'd be nice if > less/no reconfiguration was needed. I'm not saying its completely un-interesting/useless, but the fact that people are happily using large LTSP deployments makes me think that bandwidth isn't a huge issue for people here. On the other hand, the fact that modern X applications make so many X roundtrips may mean that the latency of the network does cause problems and perhaps this makes NX interesting even on fast local networks. I guess I'm wondering does anyone know of any real metrics or anecdotal evidence that would lead one to conclude that something like NX is sufficiently useful for Terminal Services to warrant piling on it in the short term ... Cheers, Mark. From sameer at unitrends.com Wed Jul 7 22:28:23 2004 From: sameer at unitrends.com (Sameer Kamat) Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 18:28:23 -0400 Subject: new window manager Message-ID: <029a01c46471$bef006e0$6bb99942@dell1> Hi , I have a window manager that I would like to add as a drop down option during logon. On Fedora Core 1 with gdm-2.4.4.5 I just added a wm.desktop file in /etc/X11/dm/Sessions/ and it worked. But the same operation does not seem to work on FC2 ( gdm-2.6.0.0-3) Is there some package I am missing since the /etc/X11/dm directory was not present in my default FC2 installation. Please advise. Thanks, Sameer. From asifsoofi at yahoo.com Thu Jul 8 16:35:39 2004 From: asifsoofi at yahoo.com (Muhammad Soofi) Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:35:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: fortran compiler for quadruple computation Message-ID: <20040708163539.70751.qmail@web40006.mail.yahoo.com> Dear Fedora users: I have a AMD64 FX51 processor based computer and want to use it for quadruple precision computation in Fortran language. The idea is to use the capabilities of the 64 bit processing of AMD64 (not quadruple support with 32 bit processor). Does anyone know of a free Fortran compiler with quadruple precision support for AMD64 under linux (Fedora)? Thank you. Regards, Muhammad A. Soofi __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From stevelist at silverorange.com Tue Jul 13 12:20:50 2004 From: stevelist at silverorange.com (Steven Garrity) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:20:50 -0300 Subject: Screensavers in FC3 Message-ID: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> There was some talk a few months back about trimming down the screensavers in Fedora Core to a more sane number. First, there was the issue of 3D screensavers bogging down machines that couldn't handle them: https://listman.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/2003-December/msg00088.html Then, I floated a proposal to pare down the included screensavers: https://listman.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/2004-February/msg00002.html Then, Bill Nottingham had my favourite proposal yet for the screensavers: https://listman.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/2004-February/msg00006.html Bill Nottingham wrote: > > xscreensaver - blank only, core > xscreensaver-extras - everything else > > Simple, clean, avoids flamewars. > Has there been any progress on this? Is it too late to do something for FC3? Thanks, Steven Garrity From rstrode at redhat.com Tue Jul 13 13:23:24 2004 From: rstrode at redhat.com (Ray Strode) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:23:24 -0400 Subject: Screensavers in FC3 In-Reply-To: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> References: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> Message-ID: <1089725005.3977.3.camel@dyn-238.desktop.boston.redhat.com> On Tue, 2004-07-13 at 09:20 -0300, Steven Garrity wrote: > There was some talk a few months back about trimming down the > screensavers in Fedora Core to a more sane number. > > > > xscreensaver - blank only, core > > xscreensaver-extras - everything else > > > > Simple, clean, avoids flamewars. > > > > Has there been any progress on this? Is it too late to do something for FC3? If there aren't any objections, I don't have a problem doing that. --Ray Strode From wcohen at redhat.com Tue Jul 13 13:56:03 2004 From: wcohen at redhat.com (Will Cohen) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:56:03 -0400 Subject: Screensavers in FC3 In-Reply-To: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> References: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> Message-ID: <40F3E9F3.9010902@redhat.com> I vote for turning just blanking the screen and turning on "Display Power Management" on video/monitor combinations that support it. Blanking the screen will save the screen much more that any of the screen savers. If people want to run screen savers for eye candy, fine. However, for most situations it seems like the screen savers are just a waste. Who is looking at the screen when they are sleeping? Also who wants the screen saver to kick in and use the CPU when they are doing a large build, e.g. GCC bootstrap? I find myself always setting screen saver preferences for blanking the screen and "Display Power management". There are financial incentives for using the power management: http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=power_mgt.pr_pm_home_office -Will Steven Garrity wrote: > There was some talk a few months back about trimming down the > screensavers in Fedora Core to a more sane number. > > First, there was the issue of 3D screensavers bogging down machines that > couldn't handle them: > https://listman.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/2003-December/msg00088.html > > > Then, I floated a proposal to pare down the included screensavers: > https://listman.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/2004-February/msg00002.html > > > Then, Bill Nottingham had my favourite proposal yet for the > screensavers: > https://listman.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/2004-February/msg00006.html > > > Bill Nottingham wrote: > > > > xscreensaver - blank only, core > > xscreensaver-extras - everything else > > > > Simple, clean, avoids flamewars. > > > > Has there been any progress on this? Is it too late to do something for > FC3? > > Thanks, > Steven Garrity > > From lists at edmack.com Tue Jul 13 14:57:32 2004 From: lists at edmack.com (Ed Mack) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:57:32 +0100 Subject: Screensavers in FC3 In-Reply-To: <1089725005.3977.3.camel@dyn-238.desktop.boston.redhat.com> References: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> <1089725005.3977.3.camel@dyn-238.desktop.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1089730652.4762.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> > > > > > > Simple, clean, avoids flamewars. > > > That's a nice way to handle it, but it's only really aimed at the geek population. 'Bootstrapping GCC' isn't something many normal users do. I like the idea of including a few 'pretty' screensavers the user can choose to run from the control panel if they feel the urge to customise - otherwise people can become disalusioned, and people will happily judge their first Linux experience by the quality of given screensavers. A lot of the Xscreensavers need to be taken to the pasture and shot, they are /so/ 1983 Ed From stevelist at silverorange.com Tue Jul 13 14:52:57 2004 From: stevelist at silverorange.com (Steven Garrity) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:52:57 -0300 Subject: Screensavers in FC3 In-Reply-To: <1089730652.4762.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> <1089725005.3977.3.camel@dyn-238.desktop.boston.redhat.com> <1089730652.4762.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <40F3F749.8060309@silverorange.com> Ed Mack wrote: >>> > >>> > Simple, clean, avoids flamewars. >>> > > > That's a nice way to handle it, but it's only really aimed at the geek > population. 'Bootstrapping GCC' isn't something many normal users do. > > I like the idea of including a few 'pretty' screensavers the user can > choose to run from the control panel if they feel the urge to customise > - otherwise people can become disalusioned, and people will happily > judge their first Linux experience by the quality of given screensavers. > A lot of the Xscreensavers need to be taken to the pasture and shot, > they are /so/ 1983 I agree that a few simple/quality screensavers would be fine to include by default, but if the debate over which should stay will at all delay the removal of all the cruft, I'd say we go to blank-only. I think blank-only is a better default for now, and we can work on getting a couple (probably just one good simple Fedora logo screensaver) back in later on. Steven Garrity From wcohen at redhat.com Tue Jul 13 15:17:50 2004 From: wcohen at redhat.com (Will Cohen) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:17:50 -0400 Subject: Screensavers in FC3 In-Reply-To: <1089730652.4762.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> <1089725005.3977.3.camel@dyn-238.desktop.boston.redhat.com> <1089730652.4762.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <40F3FD1E.3040405@redhat.com> Ed Mack wrote: >>> > >>> > Simple, clean, avoids flamewars. >>> > > > > That's a nice way to handle it, but it's only really aimed at the geek > population. 'Bootstrapping GCC' isn't something many normal users do. > > I like the idea of including a few 'pretty' screensavers the user can > choose to run from the control panel if they feel the urge to customise > - otherwise people can become disalusioned, and people will happily > judge their first Linux experience by the quality of given screensavers. > A lot of the Xscreensavers need to be taken to the pasture and shot, > they are /so/ 1983 > > Ed True, bootstrapping GCC is not a typical user activity. However, paying electricity bills is pretty common. Given that many people now have a couple computers at home, the money saved by not driving the monitors 24/7 would be attractive. Most of the preinstalled version of Windows I have seen now put the screen in power saving mode as the default. Keeping some attractive screen savers in there is fine. I just like the default preferences to be something that is more useful. I would imagine a large portion of the users don't care about the screen savers, and setting to default to something that would save them money would be a good thing. -Will -Will From james.f.powell at navy.mil Tue Jul 13 15:21:14 2004 From: james.f.powell at navy.mil (Powell, James F CONT) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 08:21:14 -0700 Subject: Screensavers in FC3 Message-ID: <0CC8704F9601FA47961256F555270F2FF2ADB5@NAWECHLKEX03VA.nadsuswe.nads.navy.mil> You know the only problem with that would be places like where I work where if your computer is on, it is required to have a screen saver, and that screen saver IS required to make it obvious that the computer is on. Personally I don't want to have to go out and find screen savers when there are so many that are currently in the Fedora Core that handle this requirement. Now I do also agree that a lot of the clutter could be removed, but there does need to be some non-blank screen savers left in. Jim Powell L3 Communications GSI Senior Scientist/Engineer AV-8B Weapons Integration james.f.powell at navy.mil (760)939-9089 > -----Original Message----- > From: fedora-desktop-list-bounces at redhat.com > [mailto:fedora-desktop-list-bounces at redhat.com]On Behalf Of Steven > Garrity > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 7:53 > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > Subject: Re: Screensavers in FC3 > > > Ed Mack wrote: > >>> > > >>> > Simple, clean, avoids flamewars. > >>> > > > > > That's a nice way to handle it, but it's only really aimed > at the geek > > population. 'Bootstrapping GCC' isn't something many normal > users do. > > > > I like the idea of including a few 'pretty' screensavers > the user can > > choose to run from the control panel if they feel the urge > to customise > > - otherwise people can become disalusioned, and people will happily > > judge their first Linux experience by the quality of given > screensavers. > > A lot of the Xscreensavers need to be taken to the pasture and shot, > > they are /so/ 1983 > > > I agree that a few simple/quality screensavers would be fine > to include > by default, but if the debate over which should stay will at > all delay > the removal of all the cruft, I'd say we go to blank-only. > > I think blank-only is a better default for now, and we can work on > getting a couple (probably just one good simple Fedora logo > screensaver) > back in later on. > > Steven Garrity > > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > From wcohen at redhat.com Tue Jul 13 15:31:05 2004 From: wcohen at redhat.com (Will Cohen) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:31:05 -0400 Subject: Screensavers in FC3 In-Reply-To: <0CC8704F9601FA47961256F555270F2FF2ADB5@NAWECHLKEX03VA.nadsuswe.nads.navy.mil> References: <0CC8704F9601FA47961256F555270F2FF2ADB5@NAWECHLKEX03VA.nadsuswe.nads.navy.mil> Message-ID: <40F40039.6070900@redhat.com> Powell, James F CONT wrote: > You know the only problem with that would be places like where I work where if your computer is on, it is required to have a screen saver, and that screen saver IS required to make it obvious that the computer is on. Personally I don't want to have to go out and find screen savers when there are so many that are currently in the Fedora Core that handle this requirement. Now I do also agree that a lot of the clutter could be removed, but there does need to be some non-blank screen savers left in. What is the logic behind this policy? Is this to make sure that someone doesn't leave a computer unsecured? If so, does the computer need to show that the screen is locked or the person is logged out? Are KVM forbidden? -Will > > Jim Powell > L3 Communications GSI > Senior Scientist/Engineer > AV-8B Weapons Integration > james.f.powell at navy.mil > (760)939-9089 > > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: fedora-desktop-list-bounces at redhat.com >>[mailto:fedora-desktop-list-bounces at redhat.com]On Behalf Of Steven >>Garrity >>Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 7:53 >>To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop >>Subject: Re: Screensavers in FC3 >> >> >>Ed Mack wrote: >> >>>>>>Simple, clean, avoids flamewars. >>>>>> >>> >>>That's a nice way to handle it, but it's only really aimed >> >>at the geek >> >>>population. 'Bootstrapping GCC' isn't something many normal >> >>users do. >> >>>I like the idea of including a few 'pretty' screensavers >> >>the user can >> >>>choose to run from the control panel if they feel the urge >> >>to customise >> >>>- otherwise people can become disalusioned, and people will happily >>>judge their first Linux experience by the quality of given >> >>screensavers. >> >>>A lot of the Xscreensavers need to be taken to the pasture and shot, >>>they are /so/ 1983 >> >> >>I agree that a few simple/quality screensavers would be fine >>to include >>by default, but if the debate over which should stay will at >>all delay >>the removal of all the cruft, I'd say we go to blank-only. >> >>I think blank-only is a better default for now, and we can work on >>getting a couple (probably just one good simple Fedora logo >>screensaver) >>back in later on. >> >>Steven Garrity >> >> >>-- >>Fedora-desktop-list mailing list >>Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com >>http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list >> > > > From james.f.powell at navy.mil Tue Jul 13 15:51:39 2004 From: james.f.powell at navy.mil (Powell, James F CONT) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 08:51:39 -0700 Subject: Screensavers in FC3 Message-ID: <0CC8704F9601FA47961256F555270F2FF2ADD1@NAWECHLKEX03VA.nadsuswe.nads.navy.mil> For the most part you have it. It is to insure that anyone walking into the room can see that the machines are on and locked. The other reason for this is security. If an unsecured person were to walk into the room, it is obvious what machines are powered up, this give the escort a bit of a heads up when coming into the room. Jim Powell L3 Communications GSI Senior Scientist/Engineer AV-8B Weapons Integration james.f.powell at navy.mil (760)939-9089 > -----Original Message----- > From: fedora-desktop-list-bounces at redhat.com > [mailto:fedora-desktop-list-bounces at redhat.com]On Behalf Of Will Cohen > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 8:31 > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > Subject: Re: Screensavers in FC3 > > > Powell, James F CONT wrote: > > You know the only problem with that would be places like > where I work where if your computer is on, it is required to > have a screen saver, and that screen saver IS required to > make it obvious that the computer is on. Personally I don't > want to have to go out and find screen savers when there are > so many that are currently in the Fedora Core that handle > this requirement. Now I do also agree that a lot of the > clutter could be removed, but there does need to be some > non-blank screen savers left in. > > What is the logic behind this policy? Is this to make sure > that someone > doesn't leave a computer unsecured? If so, does the computer need to > show that the screen is locked or the person is logged out? Are KVM > forbidden? > > -Will > > > > > Jim Powell > > L3 Communications GSI > > Senior Scientist/Engineer > > AV-8B Weapons Integration > > james.f.powell at navy.mil > > (760)939-9089 > > > > > > > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: fedora-desktop-list-bounces at redhat.com > >>[mailto:fedora-desktop-list-bounces at redhat.com]On Behalf Of Steven > >>Garrity > >>Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 7:53 > >>To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > >>Subject: Re: Screensavers in FC3 > >> > >> > >>Ed Mack wrote: > >> > >>>>>>Simple, clean, avoids flamewars. > >>>>>> > >>> > >>>That's a nice way to handle it, but it's only really aimed > >> > >>at the geek > >> > >>>population. 'Bootstrapping GCC' isn't something many normal > >> > >>users do. > >> > >>>I like the idea of including a few 'pretty' screensavers > >> > >>the user can > >> > >>>choose to run from the control panel if they feel the urge > >> > >>to customise > >> > >>>- otherwise people can become disalusioned, and people will happily > >>>judge their first Linux experience by the quality of given > >> > >>screensavers. > >> > >>>A lot of the Xscreensavers need to be taken to the pasture > and shot, > >>>they are /so/ 1983 > >> > >> > >>I agree that a few simple/quality screensavers would be fine > >>to include > >>by default, but if the debate over which should stay will at > >>all delay > >>the removal of all the cruft, I'd say we go to blank-only. > >> > >>I think blank-only is a better default for now, and we can work on > >>getting a couple (probably just one good simple Fedora logo > >>screensaver) > >>back in later on. > >> > >>Steven Garrity > >> > >> > >>-- > >>Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > >>Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > >>http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > >> > > > > > > > > > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > From nphilipp at redhat.com Tue Jul 13 15:56:34 2004 From: nphilipp at redhat.com (Nils Philippsen) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:56:34 +0200 Subject: Screensavers in FC3 In-Reply-To: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> References: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> Message-ID: <1089734194.16671.61.camel@gibraltar.stuttgart.redhat.com> On Tue, 2004-07-13 at 14:20, Steven Garrity wrote: > There was some talk a few months back about trimming down the > screensavers in Fedora Core to a more sane number. > > First, there was the issue of 3D screensavers bogging down machines that > couldn't handle them: > https://listman.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/2003-December/msg00088.html > > Then, I floated a proposal to pare down the included screensavers: > https://listman.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/2004-February/msg00002.html > > Then, Bill Nottingham had my favourite proposal yet for the > screensavers: > https://listman.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/2004-February/msg00006.html > > Bill Nottingham wrote: > > > > xscreensaver - blank only, core > > xscreensaver-extras - everything else > > > > Simple, clean, avoids flamewars. > > > > Has there been any progress on this? Is it too late to do something for FC3? From my POV this whole issue is 80% rather trivial (packaging) with 20% coding that needs to be done before that can be the case: - xscreensaver needs to revert to "blank screen" if the user has chosen anything other than {disable screen saver, blank screen}, likewise xscreensaver-demo (which should rather be xscreensaver-config, ...-prefs, ...) should only let you enable or disable blanking in that case - xscreensaver needs another means than X11 resources to let the preferences tool know about the installed hacks, messing around with /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/app-defaults/XScreenSaver is very cumbersome and bug-prone. Something like a directory /etc/xscreensaver/hacks.d where packages could just drop in small files describing their hacks would be best IMO Both of these are not that trivial and would need to be accepted upstream down the road -- we don't want to maintain such patches forever Nils -- Nils Philippsen / Red Hat / nphilipp at redhat.com "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- B. Franklin, 1759 PGP fingerprint: C4A8 9474 5C4C ADE3 2B8F 656D 47D8 9B65 6951 3011 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From james.f.powell at navy.mil Tue Jul 13 16:13:50 2004 From: james.f.powell at navy.mil (Powell, James F CONT) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:13:50 -0700 Subject: Screensavers in FC3 Message-ID: <0CC8704F9601FA47961256F555270F2FF2ADE3@NAWECHLKEX03VA.nadsuswe.nads.navy.mil> I think I through a monkey wrench in the discussion when I brought up that my jobsite requires a non-blank screen saver to be running on all platforms that are powered up. Of course because of this, we also can't take advantage of power management since that would result in a blank screen as well. Jim Powell L3 Communications GSI Senior Scientist/Engineer AV-8B Weapons Integration james.f.powell at navy.mil (760)939-9089 > -----Original Message----- > From: fedora-desktop-list-bounces at redhat.com > [mailto:fedora-desktop-list-bounces at redhat.com]On Behalf Of Nils > Philippsen > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 8:57 > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > Subject: Re: Screensavers in FC3 > > > On Tue, 2004-07-13 at 14:20, Steven Garrity wrote: > > There was some talk a few months back about trimming down the > > screensavers in Fedora Core to a more sane number. > > > > First, there was the issue of 3D screensavers bogging down > machines that > > couldn't handle them: > > > https://listman.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/2003-D > ecember/msg00088.html > > > > Then, I floated a proposal to pare down the included screensavers: > > > https://listman.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/2004-F > ebruary/msg00002.html > > > > Then, Bill Nottingham had my favourite proposal yet for the > > screensavers: > > > https://listman.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/2004-F ebruary/msg00006.html > > Bill Nottingham wrote: > > > > xscreensaver - blank only, core > > xscreensaver-extras - everything else > > > > Simple, clean, avoids flamewars. > > > > Has there been any progress on this? Is it too late to do something for FC3? >From my POV this whole issue is 80% rather trivial (packaging) with 20% coding that needs to be done before that can be the case: - xscreensaver needs to revert to "blank screen" if the user has chosen anything other than {disable screen saver, blank screen}, likewise xscreensaver-demo (which should rather be xscreensaver-config, ...-prefs, ...) should only let you enable or disable blanking in that case - xscreensaver needs another means than X11 resources to let the preferences tool know about the installed hacks, messing around with /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/app-defaults/XScreenSaver is very cumbersome and bug-prone. Something like a directory /etc/xscreensaver/hacks.d where packages could just drop in small files describing their hacks would be best IMO Both of these are not that trivial and would need to be accepted upstream down the road -- we don't want to maintain such patches forever Nils -- Nils Philippsen / Red Hat / nphilipp at redhat.com "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- B. Franklin, 1759 PGP fingerprint: C4A8 9474 5C4C ADE3 2B8F 656D 47D8 9B65 6951 3011 From behdad at cs.toronto.edu Tue Jul 13 16:20:52 2004 From: behdad at cs.toronto.edu (Behdad Esfahbod) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 12:20:52 -0400 Subject: Screensavers in FC3 In-Reply-To: <0CC8704F9601FA47961256F555270F2FF2ADE3@NAWECHLKEX03VA.nadsuswe. nads.navy.mil> References: <0CC8704F9601FA47961256F555270F2FF2ADE3@NAWECHLKEX03VA.nadsuswe. nads.navy.mil> Message-ID: In fact one of the basic reasons to move some screensavers out has been that the OpenGL ones (at least) can keep CPU usage on 100% on many machines, which contributes to the bill to pay and for many laptops it increases the temperature considerably. behdad On Tue, 13 Jul 2004, Powell, James F CONT wrote: > I think I through a monkey wrench in the discussion when I > brought up that my jobsite requires a non-blank screen saver to > be running on all platforms that are powered up. Of course > because of this, we also can't take advantage of power > management since that would result in a blank screen as well. > > Jim Powell > L3 Communications GSI > Senior Scientist/Engineer > AV-8B Weapons Integration > james.f.powell at navy.mil > (760)939-9089 > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: fedora-desktop-list-bounces at redhat.com > > [mailto:fedora-desktop-list-bounces at redhat.com]On Behalf Of Nils > > Philippsen > > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 8:57 > > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > > Subject: Re: Screensavers in FC3 > > > > > > On Tue, 2004-07-13 at 14:20, Steven Garrity wrote: > > > There was some talk a few months back about trimming down the > > > screensavers in Fedora Core to a more sane number. > > > > > > First, there was the issue of 3D screensavers bogging down > > machines that > > > couldn't handle them: > > > > > https://listman.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/2003-D > > ecember/msg00088.html > > > > > > Then, I floated a proposal to pare down the included screensavers: > > > > > https://listman.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/2004-F > > ebruary/msg00002.html > > > > > > Then, Bill Nottingham had my favourite proposal yet for the > > > screensavers: > > > > > https://listman.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/2004-F > ebruary/msg00006.html > > > > Bill Nottingham wrote: > > > > > > xscreensaver - blank only, core > > > xscreensaver-extras - everything else > > > > > > Simple, clean, avoids flamewars. > > > > > > > Has there been any progress on this? Is it too late to do something for FC3? > > >From my POV this whole issue is 80% rather trivial (packaging) with 20% > coding that needs to be done before that can be the case: > > - xscreensaver needs to revert to "blank screen" if the user has chosen > anything other than {disable screen saver, blank screen}, likewise > xscreensaver-demo (which should rather be xscreensaver-config, > ...-prefs, ...) should only let you enable or disable blanking in that > case > - xscreensaver needs another means than X11 resources to let the > preferences tool know about the installed hacks, messing around with > /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/app-defaults/XScreenSaver is very cumbersome and > bug-prone. Something like a directory /etc/xscreensaver/hacks.d where > packages could just drop in small files describing their hacks would be > best IMO > > Both of these are not that trivial and would need to be accepted > upstream down the road -- we don't want to maintain such patches forever > > Nils > --behdad behdad.org From nphilipp at redhat.com Tue Jul 13 16:26:49 2004 From: nphilipp at redhat.com (Nils Philippsen) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:26:49 +0200 Subject: Screensavers in FC3 In-Reply-To: <0CC8704F9601FA47961256F555270F2FF2ADE3@NAWECHLKEX03VA.nadsuswe.nads.navy.mil> References: <0CC8704F9601FA47961256F555270F2FF2ADE3@NAWECHLKEX03VA.nadsuswe.nads.navy.mil> Message-ID: <1089736009.16671.76.camel@gibraltar.stuttgart.redhat.com> On Tue, 2004-07-13 at 18:13, Powell, James F CONT wrote: > I think I through a monkey wrench in the discussion when I brought up > that my jobsite requires a non-blank screen saver to be running on all > platforms that are powered up. Of course because of this, we also > can't take advantage of power management since that would result in a > blank screen as well. Never mind -- there are people who want blanking only and there are people who want eye candy (for whatever reason). I was thinking about how to tackle this one from the technical side since the last time this was discussed on the list, so basically it now boils down to: - how to implement this best (the drop in config that is, the other stuff is fairly straight forward) - how to blackmail^Wbribe^Wconvince jwz to accept this upstream ;-) - how granular we want to do this (I'd vote for xscreensaver, -hacks-cheap and -hacks-expensive so everyone knows what they're dealing with ;-) Nils -- Nils Philippsen / Red Hat / nphilipp at redhat.com "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- B. Franklin, 1759 PGP fingerprint: C4A8 9474 5C4C ADE3 2B8F 656D 47D8 9B65 6951 3011 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From james.f.powell at navy.mil Tue Jul 13 16:27:47 2004 From: james.f.powell at navy.mil (Powell, James F CONT) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:27:47 -0700 Subject: Screensavers in FC3 Message-ID: <0CC8704F9601FA47961256F555270F2FF2ADEC@NAWECHLKEX03VA.nadsuswe.nads.navy.mil> Never get me wrong. I use the simplest 2d screensaver I can find. As long as something is on the screen and moves from time to time, it is sufficient. One of those awful Windows Screensavers where the logo just moves around on the screen would be sufficient for my purpose. I agree with the group as a whole that the screen savers really do need to be pared down, I just can't have them eliminated since I use Fedora as my desktop OS at work. Jim Powell L3 Communications GSI Senior Scientist/Engineer AV-8B Weapons Integration james.f.powell at navy.mil (760)939-9089 > -----Original Message----- > From: fedora-desktop-list-bounces at redhat.com > [mailto:fedora-desktop-list-bounces at redhat.com]On Behalf Of Behdad > Esfahbod > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 9:21 > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > Subject: RE: Screensavers in FC3 > > > > In fact one of the basic reasons to move some screensavers out > has been that the OpenGL ones (at least) can keep CPU usage on > 100% on many machines, which contributes to the bill to pay and > for many laptops it increases the temperature considerably. > > behdad > > On Tue, 13 Jul 2004, Powell, James F CONT wrote: > > > I think I through a monkey wrench in the discussion when I > > brought up that my jobsite requires a non-blank screen saver to > > be running on all platforms that are powered up. Of course > > because of this, we also can't take advantage of power > > management since that would result in a blank screen as well. > > > > Jim Powell > > L3 Communications GSI > > Senior Scientist/Engineer > > AV-8B Weapons Integration > > james.f.powell at navy.mil > > (760)939-9089 > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: fedora-desktop-list-bounces at redhat.com > > > [mailto:fedora-desktop-list-bounces at redhat.com]On Behalf Of Nils > > > Philippsen > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 8:57 > > > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > > > Subject: Re: Screensavers in FC3 > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 2004-07-13 at 14:20, Steven Garrity wrote: > > > > There was some talk a few months back about trimming down the > > > > screensavers in Fedora Core to a more sane number. > > > > > > > > First, there was the issue of 3D screensavers bogging down > > > machines that > > > > couldn't handle them: > > > > > > > https://listman.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/2003-D > > > ecember/msg00088.html > > > > > > > > Then, I floated a proposal to pare down the included > screensavers: > > > > > > > https://listman.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/2004-F > > > ebruary/msg00002.html > > > > > > > > Then, Bill Nottingham had my favourite proposal yet for the > > > > screensavers: > > > > > > > https://listman.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/2004-F > > ebruary/msg00006.html > > > > > > Bill Nottingham wrote: > > > > > > > > xscreensaver - blank only, core > > > > xscreensaver-extras - everything else > > > > > > > > Simple, clean, avoids flamewars. > > > > > > > > > > Has there been any progress on this? Is it too late to do > something for FC3? > > > > >From my POV this whole issue is 80% rather trivial > (packaging) with 20% > > coding that needs to be done before that can be the case: > > > > - xscreensaver needs to revert to "blank screen" if the > user has chosen > > anything other than {disable screen saver, blank screen}, likewise > > xscreensaver-demo (which should rather be xscreensaver-config, > > ...-prefs, ...) should only let you enable or disable > blanking in that > > case > > - xscreensaver needs another means than X11 resources to let the > > preferences tool know about the installed hacks, messing around with > > /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/app-defaults/XScreenSaver is very cumbersome and > > bug-prone. Something like a directory > /etc/xscreensaver/hacks.d where > > packages could just drop in small files describing their > hacks would be > > best IMO > > > > Both of these are not that trivial and would need to be accepted > > upstream down the road -- we don't want to maintain such > patches forever > > > > Nils > > > > --behdad > behdad.org > > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > From lists at edmack.com Tue Jul 13 18:29:37 2004 From: lists at edmack.com (Ed Mack) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:29:37 +0100 Subject: Screensavers in FC3 In-Reply-To: <40F3FD1E.3040405@redhat.com> References: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> <1089725005.3977.3.camel@dyn-238.desktop.boston.redhat.com> <1089730652.4762.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> <40F3FD1E.3040405@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1089743376.4762.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> > True, bootstrapping GCC is not a typical user activity. However, paying > electricity bills is pretty common. Given that many people now have a > couple computers at home, the money saved by not driving the monitors > 24/7 would be attractive. The way I run my computers is about 10 mins of screen-savers (Just for view, and also to remind me to get back to it :)) and then power saving blank. Does me great. For some nice screensavers, I say get the (assuming liscencing is ok) 'Really Slick X Screensavers' pack. It's very MacOSX-ish and pleasent to watch (All openGL). http://rss-glx.sourceforge.net/ For simplistic, keep the simple text one, and XRaySwarm and AntSpotlight. They are pretty and Screen-saverish (not just hackish :) Ed From ephex at earthlink.net Tue Jul 13 19:03:58 2004 From: ephex at earthlink.net (Chris Farber) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:03:58 -0400 Subject: Screensavers in FC3 In-Reply-To: <1089734194.16671.61.camel@gibraltar.stuttgart.redhat.com> References: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> <1089734194.16671.61.camel@gibraltar.stuttgart.redhat.com> Message-ID: <40F4321E.4090509@earthlink.net> A blank screen is more than enough to suffice for me, in fact I wouldn't want anything else. However, when I dropped off a computer I built for my Aunt, she was overly happy when she discovered she could have her screensaver cycle through some pictures she had. Simple stuff can make all the difference to new users. Trimming down the screensavers is only the start, other work needs to be done like better screensavers. The biggest issue for me, is that I can be watching a DVD in my fedora installation and then the screensaver kicks in! The only way to stop it is to disable my screensaver, and re-enable it when i'm done. For a user, that would be unnacceptable, and is certaintly annoying me to the point I just reboot if I'm going to watch a movie or tv show. From jensknutson at yahoo.com Tue Jul 13 19:14:23 2004 From: jensknutson at yahoo.com (jck) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:14:23 -0500 Subject: Screensavers in FC3 In-Reply-To: <40F4321E.4090509@earthlink.net> References: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> <1089734194.16671.61.camel@gibraltar.stuttgart.redhat.com> <40F4321E.4090509@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1089746063.31973.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-07-13 at 15:03 -0400, Chris Farber wrote: > Trimming down the screensavers is only the start, other work needs to be > done like better screensavers. The biggest issue for me, is that I can > be watching a DVD in my fedora installation and then the screensaver > kicks in! The only way to stop it is to disable my screensaver, and > re-enable it when i'm done. Try a better DVD player. :-) Totem automagically tells xscreensaver not to blank when it's playing in fullscreen. - jck -- "We act as though comfort and luxury were the chief requirements of life, when all that we need to make us happy is something to be enthusiastic about." -- Albert Einstein From ephex at earthlink.net Tue Jul 13 19:26:45 2004 From: ephex at earthlink.net (Chris Farber) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:26:45 -0400 Subject: Screensavers in FC3 In-Reply-To: <1089746063.31973.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> <1089734194.16671.61.camel@gibraltar.stuttgart.redhat.com> <40F4321E.4090509@earthlink.net> <1089746063.31973.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <40F43775.7060203@earthlink.net> thanks :) jck wrote: >On Tue, 2004-07-13 at 15:03 -0400, Chris Farber wrote: > > > >>Trimming down the screensavers is only the start, other work needs to be >>done like better screensavers. The biggest issue for me, is that I can >>be watching a DVD in my fedora installation and then the screensaver >>kicks in! The only way to stop it is to disable my screensaver, and >>re-enable it when i'm done. >> >> > >Try a better DVD player. :-) Totem automagically tells xscreensaver not >to blank when it's playing in fullscreen. > > - jck > > > From bfox at redhat.com Tue Jul 13 19:32:02 2004 From: bfox at redhat.com (Brent Fox) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:32:02 -0400 Subject: proposal to remove the "Start Here" icon Message-ID: <1089747121.16514.7.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com> I propose that we remove the "Start Here" icon from the default desktop for the following reasons: - It presents the same choices that the Main Menu does, just in a different way. This is potentially confusing and inconsistent. The Menu is a much faster way to launch apps anyway. - The name "Start Here" implies that there it will take you to a set of steps to set up your desktop, but it doesn't do that. - It's basically useless. :) I think a case could be made for a first-run desktop tutorial kind of thing, but "Start Here" as it currently exists is not it. I propose that we remove this icon for FC3test2 and see if anybody complains. Thoughts, Brent From notting at redhat.com Tue Jul 13 19:44:37 2004 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:44:37 -0400 Subject: Screensavers in FC3 In-Reply-To: <40F4321E.4090509@earthlink.net> References: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> <1089734194.16671.61.camel@gibraltar.stuttgart.redhat.com> <40F4321E.4090509@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20040713194437.GA4820@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Chris Farber (ephex at earthlink.net) said: > Trimming down the screensavers is only the start, other work needs to be > done like better screensavers. The biggest issue for me, is that I can > be watching a DVD in my fedora installation and then the screensaver > kicks in! The only way to stop it is to disable my screensaver, and > re-enable it when i'm done. For a user, that would be unnacceptable, and > is certaintly annoying me to the point I just reboot if I'm going to > watch a movie or tv show. Your DVD player is broken, it should do that for you. ;) Bill From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Jul 13 19:45:18 2004 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:45:18 -0400 Subject: proposal to remove the "Start Here" icon In-Reply-To: <1089747121.16514.7.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com> References: <1089747121.16514.7.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <604aa79104071312456135f9@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:32:02 -0400, Brent Fox wrote: > I propose that we remove the "Start Here" icon from the default desktop > for the following reasons: > - It's basically useless. :) > > I think a case could be made for a first-run desktop tutorial kind of > thing, but "Start Here" as it currently exists is not it. I propose > that we remove this icon for FC3test2 and see if anybody complains. If its removed, are there any plans to actually create anything akin to the first-run tutorial kind of thing you mention? Perhaps instead of thinking a 'first run' tutorial thing, perhaps i can infect you with the idea of something useful beyond first run, a sort of task based guided tour that can be referenced when people want to learn how to do a new task but don't really know what applications to use. And if I want to get all starry-eyed, it could be updated over the lifetime of its release to encompass more task based help beyond what was available at install time. -jef"theora videos of applications in use will be a must for any such task based tutorial guide"spaleta From mandreiana at rdslink.ro Tue Jul 13 19:55:23 2004 From: mandreiana at rdslink.ro (Marius Andreiana) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:55:23 +0300 Subject: proposal to remove the "Start Here" icon In-Reply-To: <1089747121.16514.7.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com> References: <1089747121.16514.7.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1089748523.6434.0.camel@marte.biciclete.ro> Agreed. Removal of Start Here is considered upstream too, AFAIK. -- Marius Andreiana Galuna - Solutii Linux in Romania http://www.galuna.ro From bfox at redhat.com Tue Jul 13 19:50:27 2004 From: bfox at redhat.com (Brent Fox) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:50:27 -0400 Subject: proposal to remove the "Start Here" icon In-Reply-To: <604aa79104071312456135f9@mail.gmail.com> References: <1089747121.16514.7.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com> <604aa79104071312456135f9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1089748227.16514.12.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com> On Tue, 2004-07-13 at 15:45, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:32:02 -0400, Brent Fox wrote: > > I propose that we remove the "Start Here" icon from the default desktop > > for the following reasons: > > - It's basically useless. :) > > > > I think a case could be made for a first-run desktop tutorial kind of > > thing, but "Start Here" as it currently exists is not it. I propose > > that we remove this icon for FC3test2 and see if anybody complains. > > If its removed, are there any plans to actually create anything akin > to the first-run > tutorial kind of thing you mention? Perhaps instead of thinking a > 'first run' tutorial thing, perhaps i can infect you with the idea of > something useful beyond first run, a sort of task based guided tour > that can be referenced when people want to learn how to do a new task > but don't really know what applications to use. And if I want to get > all starry-eyed, it could be updated over the lifetime of its release > to encompass more task based help beyond what was available at install > time. I agree that such a tutorial could be useful, but I know of no plans to create one. However, I don't think that the removal of the current "Start Here" should wait on the creation of a tutorial. It's not like there's any current functionality that people will miss if it's removed. --Brent From tony at tgds.net Tue Jul 13 19:58:40 2004 From: tony at tgds.net (Tony Grant) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:58:40 +0200 Subject: Screensavers in FC3 In-Reply-To: <20040713194437.GA4820@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> <1089734194.16671.61.camel@gibraltar.stuttgart.redhat.com> <40F4321E.4090509@earthlink.net> <20040713194437.GA4820@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1089748719.22476.71.camel@localhost.localdomain> Trim down the screen savers make Fedora 3 dull, drab, not fun... Hell that will pull the end user away from Windows! After all Linux is an OS for work not for fun anyway. Maybe if we made it as ugly as Windows 95 people would flock to it in droves? While we are trimming things down take out the desktop backgrounds as well! Tony Grant -- www.tgds.net Library management software toolkit From wralphie at comcast.net Tue Jul 13 20:01:02 2004 From: wralphie at comcast.net (jludwig) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:01:02 -0400 Subject: proposal to remove the "Start Here" icon In-Reply-To: <1089747121.16514.7.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com> References: <1089747121.16514.7.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1089748861.3186.71.camel@jMOD.home> On Tue, 2004-07-13 at 15:32, Brent Fox wrote: > I propose that we remove the "Start Here" icon from the default desktop > for the following reasons: > > - It presents the same choices that the Main Menu does, just in a > different way. This is potentially confusing and inconsistent. The > Menu is a much faster way to launch apps anyway. > > - The name "Start Here" implies that there it will take you to a set of > steps to set up your desktop, but it doesn't do that. > > - It's basically useless. :) > > > I think a case could be made for a first-run desktop tutorial kind of > thing, but "Start Here" as it currently exists is not it. I propose > that we remove this icon for FC3test2 and see if anybody complains. > > > > Thoughts, > Brent There have been a bunch of proposals and discussions about newbie tutorials and HowTo's. Why not here? -- jludwig From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Jul 13 20:06:02 2004 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:06:02 -0400 Subject: proposal to remove the "Start Here" icon In-Reply-To: <1089748227.16514.12.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com> References: <1089747121.16514.7.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com> <604aa79104071312456135f9@mail.gmail.com> <1089748227.16514.12.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <604aa79104071313066c8aa1f7@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:50:27 -0400, Brent Fox wrote: > I agree that such a tutorial could be useful, but I know of no plans to > create one. However, I don't think that the removal of the current > "Start Here" should wait on the creation of a tutorial. It's not like > there's any current functionality that people will miss if it's removed. On the contrary, its how i test to make sure my trashcan is functional -jef From pmmm at rnl.ist.utl.pt Tue Jul 13 20:12:29 2004 From: pmmm at rnl.ist.utl.pt (Pedro Morais) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:12:29 +0100 Subject: proposal to remove the "Start Here" icon In-Reply-To: <1089747121.16514.7.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com> References: <1089747121.16514.7.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <200407132112.30805.pmmm@rnl.ist.utl.pt> Em Ter?a, 13 de Julho de 2004 20:32, Brent Fox escreveu: > I propose that we remove the "Start Here" icon from the default desktop > for the following reasons: Please remove it. -- Pedro Morais - morais at kde.org - http://www.rnl.ist.utl.pt/~pmmm/ From lists at edmack.com Tue Jul 13 20:27:37 2004 From: lists at edmack.com (Ed Mack) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:27:37 +0100 Subject: Screensavers in FC3 In-Reply-To: <1089748719.22476.71.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> <1089734194.16671.61.camel@gibraltar.stuttgart.redhat.com> <40F4321E.4090509@earthlink.net> <20040713194437.GA4820@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1089748719.22476.71.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1089750457.4762.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> > Trim down the scre er all Linux is Have you looked at the majority of X screen savers with FC2? They are called 'hacks' by the program for a reason - most of them are cheap and ugly. Most look much more dated than Windows 95. It's trimming them that makes it more up to date and clean. The wallpapers are great, btw. Ed From stevenn at vib.tv Tue Jul 13 20:51:28 2004 From: stevenn at vib.tv (Steven Noonan) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:51:28 -0700 Subject: proposal to remove the "Start Here" icon In-Reply-To: <1089747121.16514.7.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <200407131354480.SM02580@asgard> I agree with this. The 'Start Here' icon is useless, even for newbies. If they have a brain in their head they should figure out how to click on the 'Start Menu' equivalent (at least, from a Windows-user's point of view). I also agree that a first-run tutorial would be much more useful for first-time users. But don't make the first-run tutorial as retarded as Windows's tutorials which tell you things like 'move the mouse and click. Like this!' Regards, Steven Noonan -----Original Message----- From: fedora-desktop-list-bounces at redhat.com [mailto:fedora-desktop-list-bounces at redhat.com] On Behalf Of Brent Fox Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 12:32 PM To: fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com Subject: proposal to remove the "Start Here" icon I propose that we remove the "Start Here" icon from the default desktop for the following reasons: - It presents the same choices that the Main Menu does, just in a different way. This is potentially confusing and inconsistent. The Menu is a much faster way to launch apps anyway. - The name "Start Here" implies that there it will take you to a set of steps to set up your desktop, but it doesn't do that. - It's basically useless. :) I think a case could be made for a first-run desktop tutorial kind of thing, but "Start Here" as it currently exists is not it. I propose that we remove this icon for FC3test2 and see if anybody complains. Thoughts, Brent -- Fedora-desktop-list mailing list Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list From foolish at fedoraforum.org Tue Jul 13 21:15:57 2004 From: foolish at fedoraforum.org (Sindre Pedersen Bjordal) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 23:15:57 +0200 Subject: Lock Screen in menu only works when screensaver is configured. Message-ID: <1089753356.22638.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> The other day I came across this weirdness. I pressed the lock screen button in the menu and nothing happened. Nothing, it didn't lock, it didn't display any message, nothing. I got into #Fedora and asked around, I was answered quickly, I didn't have my screen saver configured, that's why lock screen doesn't work. I found this rather silly. Locking the screen isn't the same as a screen saver. Screen savers pop up when you don't use your computer for a while. Lock screen however, is used to prevent other users accessing the computer while you're away. I don't use a screen I've disabled it in the screen saver settings, but I do want to lock screen from time to time. Is there any way we could separate the lock screen and the screen saver, so that when I press lock screen, it just works, regardless of my screen saver settings? I don't care what the screen displays when my screen is locked, I don't care at all. I just want it to lock. If it's not possible to separate them, at least give me some kind of message saying I should configure my screen saver, the last thing we want to happen is nothing at all. -- Sindre Pedersen Bjordal www.fedoraforum.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Dette er en digitalt signert meldingsdel URL: From p.vandenberg at personainternet.com Tue Jul 13 21:36:00 2004 From: p.vandenberg at personainternet.com (Paul Vandenberg) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:36:00 -0000 (GMT) Subject: proposal to remove the "Start Here" icon In-Reply-To: <20040713201807.E4F7F73670@hormel.redhat.com> References: <20040713201807.E4F7F73670@hormel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1278.66.206.236.127.1089754560.squirrel@webmail.personainternet.com> The first thing I do with a new setup is get rid of the 'Start Here' icon. From hp at redhat.com Wed Jul 14 00:39:45 2004 From: hp at redhat.com (Havoc Pennington) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:39:45 -0400 Subject: Screensavers in FC3 In-Reply-To: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> References: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> Message-ID: <1089765585.7200.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-07-13 at 08:20, Steven Garrity wrote: > Bill Nottingham wrote: > > > > xscreensaver - blank only, core > > xscreensaver-extras - everything else > > > > Simple, clean, avoids flamewars. > > > > Has there been any progress on this? Is it too late to do something for FC3? Regular desktop-using people like screensavers. Trimming them down good, making it blank/powersave after a while by default good, deleting them all kind of lame. A simple default saver could cycle through the desktop backgrounds, and let people specify a directory of images to cycle through instead. Then have a couple of simple pretty savers in the spirit of the gdm theme and default background, perhaps. Havoc From psychoelmo at gmail.com Wed Jul 14 03:08:35 2004 From: psychoelmo at gmail.com (psychoelmo) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:08:35 -0600 Subject: Screensavers in FC3 In-Reply-To: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> References: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> Message-ID: this makes sense to me.. although i would leave a couple of basic ones in core, and split up the rest into two packages, ones that run without 3d accel. and those that need it. On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:20:50 -0300, Steven Garrity wrote: > > Then, Bill Nottingham had my favourite proposal yet for the > screensavers: > https://listman.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/2004-February/msg00006.html > > Bill Nottingham wrote: > > > > xscreensaver - blank only, core > > xscreensaver-extras - everything else > > > > Simple, clean, avoids flamewars. > > > > Has there been any progress on this? Is it too late to do something for FC3? From psychoelmo at gmail.com Wed Jul 14 03:17:23 2004 From: psychoelmo at gmail.com (psychoelmo) Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:17:23 -0600 Subject: Lock Screen in menu only works when screensaver is configured. In-Reply-To: <1089753356.22638.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1089753356.22638.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: i can understand you not wanting a screen saver to kick in.. but afaik, that's what locks the screen.. can you set the screensaver timeout really high and just use blank-screen for the saver? at least then the screen wont blank unless it sits, say, overnight or something, a cpu hog screensaver wont run, and you still have the ability to lock the screen at the touch of a button.. that's what i do here. might work for you until something else comes along. On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 23:15:57 +0200, Sindre Pedersen Bjordal wrote: > The other day I came across this weirdness. I pressed the lock screen > button in the menu and nothing happened. Nothing, it didn't lock, it > didn't display any message, nothing. > > I got into #Fedora and asked around, I was answered quickly, I didn't > have my screen saver configured, that's why lock screen doesn't work. > > I found this rather silly. Locking the screen isn't the same as a screen > saver. Screen savers pop up when you don't use your computer for a > while. Lock screen however, is used to prevent other users accessing the > computer while you're away. I don't use a screen I've disabled it in > the screen saver settings, but I do want to lock screen from time to > time. > > Is there any way we could separate the lock screen and the screen saver, > so that when I press lock screen, it just works, regardless of my screen > saver settings? I don't care what the screen displays when my screen is > locked, I don't care at all. I just want it to lock. > > If it's not possible to separate them, at least give me some kind of > message saying I should configure my screen saver, the last thing we > want to happen is nothing at all. > > > -- > Sindre Pedersen Bjordal > www.fedoraforum.org > > > From mharris at www.linux.org.uk Wed Jul 14 04:19:30 2004 From: mharris at www.linux.org.uk (Mike A. Harris) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 00:19:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Screensavers in FC3 In-Reply-To: References: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jul 2004, psychoelmo wrote: >this makes sense to me.. although i would leave a couple of basic ones >in core, and split up the rest into two packages, ones that run >without 3d accel. and those that need it. All of the OpenGL screensavers work with Mesa software OpenGL, albeit some of them are quite slow, but none of them have a hard requirement of 3D acceleration. It does make sense to me for them to be in a xscreensaver-3D-savers package or something perhaps. From mharris at www.linux.org.uk Wed Jul 14 04:23:45 2004 From: mharris at www.linux.org.uk (Mike A. Harris) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 00:23:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Lock Screen in menu only works when screensaver is configured. In-Reply-To: References: <1089753356.22638.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jul 2004, psychoelmo wrote: >Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:17:23 -0600 >From: psychoelmo >To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII >Reply-To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > >X-BeenThere: fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com >Subject: Re: Lock Screen in menu only works when screensaver is configured. > >i can understand you not wanting a screen saver to kick in.. but >afaik, that's what locks the screen.. can you set the screensaver >timeout really high and just use blank-screen for the saver? at least >then the screen wont blank unless it sits, say, overnight or >something, a cpu hog screensaver wont run, and you still have the >ability to lock the screen at the touch of a button.. that's what i do >here. might work for you until something else comes along. One problem with making a blank screen the default screensaver, is that there are many users out there who for whatever reason, just wont realize this is happening, and might think their machine has locked up or crashed or something and hit reset or poweroff, thus trashing their session. If only they had moved the mouse or hit a key they'd know it was just a blank screen. I've even done this myself absent mindedly a few times at the console on a rarely used machine. The default screensaver definitely should not be "random" IMHO, but it also shouldn't just be "blank". I believe the default Microsoft Windows screensaver is a Windows logo that randomly moves around the screen every n seconds. It's pretty basic and boring, but it does the job, and also lets the user know it is a screensaver and not a locked up machine. ;o) We should create a "Fedora Logo" screensaver and make that the default. One of the xscreensaver savers is probably close enough to use as a basis for derivative work. If not, it would probably be only a few hours to hack up a basic screensaver of this nature with minimal effort. Sound sensible? From mfedyk at matchmail.com Wed Jul 14 17:57:26 2004 From: mfedyk at matchmail.com (Mike Fedyk) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:57:26 -0700 Subject: Screensavers in FC3 In-Reply-To: References: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> Message-ID: <40F57406.3050703@matchmail.com> Mike A. Harris wrote: >On Tue, 13 Jul 2004, psychoelmo wrote: > > > >>this makes sense to me.. although i would leave a couple of basic ones >>in core, and split up the rest into two packages, ones that run >>without 3d accel. and those that need it. >> >> > > >All of the OpenGL screensavers work with Mesa software OpenGL, >albeit some of them are quite slow, but none of them have a hard >requirement of 3D acceleration. > > That's like listening to a CD that skips, or a download that goes at two bytes per second. >It does make sense to me for them to be in a >xscreensaver-3D-savers package or something perhaps. > > Yes, it does. From notting at redhat.com Wed Jul 14 18:01:29 2004 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:01:29 -0400 Subject: Screensavers in FC3 In-Reply-To: References: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> Message-ID: <20040714180129.GI25279@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Mike A. Harris (mharris at www.linux.org.uk) said: > All of the OpenGL screensavers work with Mesa software OpenGL, > albeit some of them are quite slow, but none of them have a hard > requirement of 3D acceleration. Well, gflux is rather... unpleasant to run on a SW-GL only box. But it's not in the default config. Bill From notting at redhat.com Wed Jul 14 18:43:45 2004 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:43:45 -0400 Subject: Screensavers in FC3 In-Reply-To: <20040714180129.GI25279@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> <20040714180129.GI25279@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20040714184345.GA26591@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Bill Nottingham (notting at redhat.com) said: > Mike A. Harris (mharris at www.linux.org.uk) said: > > All of the OpenGL screensavers work with Mesa software OpenGL, > > albeit some of them are quite slow, but none of them have a hard > > requirement of 3D acceleration. > > Well, gflux is rather... unpleasant to run on a SW-GL only box. > But it's not in the default config. Erm, glblur. :) Bill From mattdm at mattdm.org Wed Jul 14 19:03:34 2004 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 15:03:34 -0400 Subject: Lock Screen in menu only works when screensaver is configured. In-Reply-To: References: <1089753356.22638.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20040714190334.GA12015@jadzia.bu.edu> On Wed, Jul 14, 2004 at 12:23:45AM -0400, Mike A. Harris wrote: > The default screensaver definitely should not be "random" IMHO, > but it also shouldn't just be "blank". I believe the default Why shouldn't it be random? Although this seems silly, a _lot_ of people in my office have seen the screensavers bouncing around on one of my test machines, and said "woah, what's that"? And then when I explain that it's the default xscreensaver that comes with Linux, they are impressed -- "wow, that's really graphical, and nicer than Windows". -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> From mharris at www.linux.org.uk Wed Jul 14 20:07:13 2004 From: mharris at www.linux.org.uk (Mike A. Harris) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 16:07:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Lock Screen in menu only works when screensaver is configured. In-Reply-To: <20040714190334.GA12015@jadzia.bu.edu> References: <1089753356.22638.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20040714190334.GA12015@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Jul 2004, Matthew Miller wrote: >> The default screensaver definitely should not be "random" IMHO, >> but it also shouldn't just be "blank". I believe the default > >Why shouldn't it be random? One main reason is for security/privacy/confidentiality purposes. Currently, a large number of the screensavers leak screen content information, by turning your desktop into a jigsaw puzzle, or some other eye candy that uses the current graphics on-screen in a manipulative manner. In enviroments which are sensitive to information leakage of this nature, those have to be disabled. Since there's no real tangible benefit to having random screensavers by default, and there is a tangible benefit to having security by default, it makes sense to not have a random screensaver by default. >Although this seems silly, a _lot_ of people in my office have >seen the screensavers bouncing around on one of my test >machines, and said "woah, what's that"? And then when I explain >that it's the default xscreensaver that comes with Linux, they >are impressed -- "wow, that's really graphical, and nicer than >Windows". Indeed, and random screensavers should still remain an option for that purpose. It just shouldn't be the default. From stevelist at silverorange.com Thu Jul 15 00:27:26 2004 From: stevelist at silverorange.com (Steven Garrity) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 21:27:26 -0300 Subject: Screensavers in FC3 In-Reply-To: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> References: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> Message-ID: <40F5CF6E.6070901@silverorange.com> So, as this thread illustrates, there are plenty of opinions on the screensavers. Perhaps someone with the authority/ability can make a call on this based on the various options floated on this thread and go ahead with it. There seems, at least, to be consensus that there are too many old/ugly screensavers in there now. Steven Garrity From rstrode at redhat.com Thu Jul 15 00:33:51 2004 From: rstrode at redhat.com (Ray Strode) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:33:51 -0400 Subject: Screensavers in FC3 In-Reply-To: <40F5CF6E.6070901@silverorange.com> References: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> <40F5CF6E.6070901@silverorange.com> Message-ID: <1089851631.5048.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-07-14 at 21:27 -0300, Steven Garrity wrote: > So, as this thread illustrates, there are plenty of opinions on the > screensavers. > > Perhaps someone with the authority/ability can make a call on this based > on the various options floated on this thread and go ahead with it. So what I'm going to end up doing is making the base xscreensaver package have a small number of screensavers, and then have an additional package for the more fancy ones. --Ray Strode From mfedyk at matchmail.com Thu Jul 15 02:20:12 2004 From: mfedyk at matchmail.com (Mike Fedyk) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:20:12 -0700 Subject: Screensavers in FC3 In-Reply-To: <1089851631.5048.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> <40F5CF6E.6070901@silverorange.com> <1089851631.5048.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <40F5E9DC.5020608@matchmail.com> Ray Strode wrote: >On Wed, 2004-07-14 at 21:27 -0300, Steven Garrity wrote: > > >>So, as this thread illustrates, there are plenty of opinions on the >>screensavers. >> >>Perhaps someone with the authority/ability can make a call on this based >>on the various options floated on this thread and go ahead with it. >> >> >So what I'm going to end up doing is making the base xscreensaver >package have a small number of screensavers, and then have an additional >package for the more fancy ones. > How about a four way split (feel free to come up with better names)? screensavers-base screensavers-3d screensavers-pretty (all judged to be better than the ones in misc) screensavers-misc (all of the ones you'd love to leave out completely) Now let's nominate some screensavers that are not resource intensive (ie, not 3d and don't take up more than say 25% CPU on a computer 3-4 years old) and pleasing to the eye to make a list totaling 10 or less. I can think of some now, but can't think of their name right now. So, what say you? From ephex at earthlink.net Thu Jul 15 03:25:19 2004 From: ephex at earthlink.net (Chris Farber) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 23:25:19 -0400 Subject: Screensavers in FC3 In-Reply-To: <40F5E9DC.5020608@matchmail.com> References: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> <40F5CF6E.6070901@silverorange.com> <1089851631.5048.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <40F5E9DC.5020608@matchmail.com> Message-ID: <1089861919.2957.3.camel@bluesphere> I like this idea. I'm not sure if a screensaver like this exists - but how about including a slideshow screensaver, one that cycles through images in a directory with some nice transitional effects [don't ask me to program this though hehe]. Since this probably won't eat much cpu at all, it would make a very nice choice for the screensavers-base package. On Wed, 2004-07-14 at 22:20, Mike Fedyk wrote: > Ray Strode wrote: > > >On Wed, 2004-07-14 at 21:27 -0300, Steven Garrity wrote: > > > > > >>So, as this thread illustrates, there are plenty of opinions on the > >>screensavers. > >> > >>Perhaps someone with the authority/ability can make a call on this based > >>on the various options floated on this thread and go ahead with it. > >> > >> > >So what I'm going to end up doing is making the base xscreensaver > >package have a small number of screensavers, and then have an additional > >package for the more fancy ones. > > > How about a four way split (feel free to come up with better names)? > > screensavers-base > screensavers-3d > screensavers-pretty (all judged to be better than the ones in misc) > screensavers-misc (all of the ones you'd love to leave out completely) > > Now let's nominate some screensavers that are not resource intensive > (ie, not 3d and don't take up more than say 25% CPU on a computer 3-4 > years old) and pleasing to the eye to make a list totaling 10 or less. > I can think of some now, but can't think of their name right now. > > So, what say you? From mfedyk at matchmail.com Thu Jul 15 03:45:38 2004 From: mfedyk at matchmail.com (Mike Fedyk) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:45:38 -0700 Subject: Screensavers in FC3 In-Reply-To: <1089861919.2957.3.camel@bluesphere> References: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> <40F5CF6E.6070901@silverorange.com> <1089851631.5048.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <40F5E9DC.5020608@matchmail.com> <1089861919.2957.3.camel@bluesphere> Message-ID: <40F5FDE2.20200@matchmail.com> Chris Farber wrote: >I like this idea. >I'm not sure if a screensaver like this exists - but how about including > The idea is to choose between existing screen savers already in the package. So please reply with a list of existing savers already in the package, and we can go from there... From duffy at redhat.com Thu Jul 15 04:01:29 2004 From: duffy at redhat.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn?= Duffy) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 00:01:29 -0400 Subject: Screensavers in FC3 In-Reply-To: <40F5E9DC.5020608@matchmail.com> References: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> <40F5CF6E.6070901@silverorange.com> <1089851631.5048.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <40F5E9DC.5020608@matchmail.com> Message-ID: <1089864089.2548.19.camel@dhcp64-226.boston.redhat.com> I've been trying to hack up a basic logo display/slideshow screensaver, but it's quite difficult. Would anybody with experience using xscreensaver/screenhack.h/xlib be willing to help or take over? What I've got so far is here: http://www.linuxgrrl.com/ss/ - a modification to grenetic. Here are my nominations for each category, for what it's worth: > How about a four way split (feel free to come up with better names)? > > screensavers-base 1. Popsquares 2. Attraction Splines 3. Halo 4. Halftone 5. Phosphor 6. Font Glide 7. Font Glide Scroller 8. Slide screen > screensavers-3d 1. Atlantis 2. Bouncing Cow 3. Circuit 4. Endgame 5. Flying Toasters 6. Lavalite 7. queens 8. Atunnel 9. GL snake 10. GL Blur > screensavers-pretty (all judged to be better than the ones in misc) 1. metaballs 2. polytopes 3. shadebobs 4. glmatrix 5. xmatrix 6. stairs 7. Flurry 8. eruption Also came up with two other categories looking through them: Desktop Distortions: 1. decay screen 2. ripples (desktop) 3. rot zoomer 4. rot zoomer sweep 5. slide screen 6. spotlight 7. twang 8. zoom fatbits 9. Distort Text: 1. phosphor 2. star wars 3. GL text 4. Font Glide 5. Font Glide Scroller > screensavers-misc (all of the ones you'd love to leave out completely) > > Now let's nominate some screensavers that are not resource intensive > (ie, not 3d and don't take up more than say 25% CPU on a computer 3-4 > years old) and pleasing to the eye to make a list totaling 10 or less. > I can think of some now, but can't think of their name right now. > > So, what say you? > > From nphilipp at redhat.com Thu Jul 15 07:47:52 2004 From: nphilipp at redhat.com (Nils Philippsen) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:47:52 +0200 Subject: Screensavers in FC3 In-Reply-To: <1089851631.5048.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> <40F5CF6E.6070901@silverorange.com> <1089851631.5048.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1089877672.3505.18.camel@wombat.tiptoe.de> On Thu, 2004-07-15 at 02:33, Ray Strode wrote: > On Wed, 2004-07-14 at 21:27 -0300, Steven Garrity wrote: > > So, as this thread illustrates, there are plenty of opinions on the > > screensavers. > > > > Perhaps someone with the authority/ability can make a call on this based > > on the various options floated on this thread and go ahead with it. > So what I'm going to end up doing is making the base xscreensaver > package have a small number of screensavers, and then have an additional > package for the more fancy ones. Have you already decided how to tackle the "how can xscreensaver hacks packages be dropped in simply" problem I outlined in one of my last posts? I've already messed around with adding hacks to /usr/X11R6/lib/app-defaults/XScreensaver (in the course of packaging rss-glx for Fedora) and this is neither fun and nor reliable ;-) -- you need to deal with any of {xscreensaver base package,random xscreensaver extra hacks package} being {installed,removed,updated}. I'd vote very much for some /etc/xscreensaver/hacks.d directory where extra hacks pacvkages can simply drop their configuration. Nils -- Nils Philippsen / Red Hat / nphilipp at redhat.com "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- B. Franklin, 1759 PGP fingerprint: C4A8 9474 5C4C ADE3 2B8F 656D 47D8 9B65 6951 3011 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mattdm at mattdm.org Thu Jul 15 07:51:20 2004 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 03:51:20 -0400 Subject: Screensavers in FC3 In-Reply-To: <1089864089.2548.19.camel@dhcp64-226.boston.redhat.com> References: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> <40F5CF6E.6070901@silverorange.com> <1089851631.5048.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <40F5E9DC.5020608@matchmail.com> <1089864089.2548.19.camel@dhcp64-226.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20040715075120.GA7543@jadzia.bu.edu> On Thu, Jul 15, 2004 at 12:01:29AM -0400, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > > screensavers-3d > 1. Atlantis > 2. Bouncing Cow > 3. Circuit > 4. Endgame > 5. Flying Toasters > 6. Lavalite > 7. queens > 8. Atunnel > 9. GL snake > 10. GL Blur Plus, add in the super-cool rss_glx screensavers -- having it as a completely separate package introduces a nasty kludge.... -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> From pmatilai at welho.com Thu Jul 15 08:08:25 2004 From: pmatilai at welho.com (Panu Matilainen) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 11:08:25 +0300 (EEST) Subject: Screensavers in FC3 In-Reply-To: <1089877672.3505.18.camel@wombat.tiptoe.de> References: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> <40F5CF6E.6070901@silverorange.com> <1089851631.5048.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1089877672.3505.18.camel@wombat.tiptoe.de> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Jul 2004, Nils Philippsen wrote: > On Thu, 2004-07-15 at 02:33, Ray Strode wrote: > > On Wed, 2004-07-14 at 21:27 -0300, Steven Garrity wrote: > > > So, as this thread illustrates, there are plenty of opinions on the > > > screensavers. > > > > > > Perhaps someone with the authority/ability can make a call on this based > > > on the various options floated on this thread and go ahead with it. > > So what I'm going to end up doing is making the base xscreensaver > > package have a small number of screensavers, and then have an additional > > package for the more fancy ones. > > Have you already decided how to tackle the "how can xscreensaver hacks > packages be dropped in simply" problem I outlined in one of my last > posts? > > I've already messed around with adding hacks to > /usr/X11R6/lib/app-defaults/XScreensaver (in the course of packaging > rss-glx for Fedora) and this is neither fun and nor reliable ;-) -- you > need to deal with any of {xscreensaver base package,random xscreensaver > extra hacks package} being {installed,removed,updated}. I'd vote very > much for some /etc/xscreensaver/hacks.d directory where extra hacks > pacvkages can simply drop their configuration. Seconded. I've seen the rss-glx %post hack and by gawd it's not, uh, exactly clean :) - Panu - From rstrode at redhat.com Thu Jul 15 08:31:40 2004 From: rstrode at redhat.com (Ray Strode) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 04:31:40 -0400 Subject: Screensavers in FC3 In-Reply-To: <1089877672.3505.18.camel@wombat.tiptoe.de> References: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> <40F5CF6E.6070901@silverorange.com> <1089851631.5048.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1089877672.3505.18.camel@wombat.tiptoe.de> Message-ID: <1089880300.7641.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2004-07-15 at 09:47 +0200, Nils Philippsen wrote: > Have you already decided how to tackle the "how can xscreensaver hacks > packages be dropped in simply" problem I outlined in one of my last > posts? No. I haven't looked at the technical issues involved at all yet. Your proposal may be the best way to go. I'll revisit the issue when I've set aside time to make the required changes. --Ray From mharris at www.linux.org.uk Thu Jul 15 08:25:54 2004 From: mharris at www.linux.org.uk (Mike A. Harris) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 04:25:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Screensavers in FC3 In-Reply-To: <20040715075120.GA7543@jadzia.bu.edu> References: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> <40F5CF6E.6070901@silverorange.com> <1089851631.5048.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <40F5E9DC.5020608@matchmail.com> <1089864089.2548.19.camel@dhcp64-226.boston.redhat.com> <20040715075120.GA7543@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Jul 2004, Matthew Miller wrote: >On Thu, Jul 15, 2004 at 12:01:29AM -0400, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: >> > screensavers-3d >> 1. Atlantis >> 2. Bouncing Cow >> 3. Circuit >> 4. Endgame >> 5. Flying Toasters >> 6. Lavalite >> 7. queens >> 8. Atunnel >> 9. GL snake >> 10. GL Blur > >Plus, add in the super-cool rss_glx screensavers -- having it as a >completely separate package introduces a nasty kludge.... We're trying to cut down on screensavers, not increase them. ;o) Seriously though, Fedora Extras is the best place for something like rss. Of course only after any legal issues that might exist in the code can be investigated and resolved/concluded. Last I checked there was some potential problems, and even low risks are risks not worth taking for something as trivial as screensavers. ;) From harald at redhat.com Thu Jul 15 09:25:05 2004 From: harald at redhat.com (Harald Hoyer) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 11:25:05 +0200 Subject: Screensavers in FC3 In-Reply-To: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> References: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> Message-ID: <40F64D71.4030003@redhat.com> I can't believe screensavers are this popular to Linux users... What a long thread :-) for *just* screensavers... We must have a really stable distribution :) or are they just distraction from all the bugs? :) From behdad at cs.toronto.edu Thu Jul 15 09:24:10 2004 From: behdad at cs.toronto.edu (Behdad Esfahbod) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 05:24:10 -0400 Subject: Screensavers in FC3 In-Reply-To: <1089864089.2548.19.camel@dhcp64-226.boston.redhat.com> References: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> <40F5CF6E.6070901@silverorange.com> <1089851631.5048.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <40F5E9DC.5020608@matchmail.com> <1089864089.2548.19.camel@dhcp64-226.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Jul 2004, [ISO-8859-1] M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > Desktop Distortions: It looks quite reasonable to me to package these separately and do not include them by default. They break the rule "lock and no one will see what's on your desktop while you get your coffee". behdad > 1. decay screen > 2. ripples (desktop) > 3. rot zoomer > 4. rot zoomer sweep > 5. slide screen > 6. spotlight > 7. twang > 8. zoom fatbits > 9. Distort --behdad From breun at xs4all.nl Thu Jul 15 09:57:47 2004 From: breun at xs4all.nl (Nils Breunese) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 11:57:47 +0200 Subject: Screensavers in FC3 In-Reply-To: <40F5E9DC.5020608@matchmail.com> References: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> <40F5CF6E.6070901@silverorange.com> <1089851631.5048.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <40F5E9DC.5020608@matchmail.com> Message-ID: <40F6551B.7020807@xs4all.nl> Mike Fedyk wrote: > How about a four way split (feel free to come up with better names)? > > screensavers-base > screensavers-3d > screensavers-pretty (all judged to be better than the ones in misc) > screensavers-misc (all of the ones you'd love to leave out completely) Wouldn't it be better to create a separate OpenGL screensavers package? Or is that the -3d package? I have a dual-head setup, one nvidia geforce4mx and an old sis pci card. I like to run flurry, but it needs OpenGL and unfortunately that sis card doesn't support it. So if my system starts the screensaver one monitor has the pretty flurry visuals and the other one prints out some errors. Having different screensavers on each screen would probably involve changing xscreensaver? Nils. -- "I got a funny feeling they got plastic in the afterlife" - Beck From charm at porchlight.ca Thu Jul 15 12:39:45 2004 From: charm at porchlight.ca (Charles McColm) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 08:39:45 -0400 Subject: Screensavers in FC3 In-Reply-To: <20040713160014.DB2937400B@hormel.redhat.com> References: <20040713160014.DB2937400B@hormel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1089895037.19532.8.camel@jaguar.jungle.lan> On Tue, 2004-07-13 at 12:00, fedora-desktop-list-request at redhat.com wrote: > First, there was the issue of 3D screensavers bogging down machines that > couldn't handle them: I leave my FC machine running at a computer recycling centre where I help out and quite a few people have commented positively on them. I know it's silly, but the screen savers were one of the things that have helped us direct people away from Windows. It's not the only thing of course, but I have done a couple of FC installs just because people were impressed by the fact that they never saw the same screen saver twice. Those things said, some of the 3D savers probably should go (as well as some of the regular screen savers). FC does come with a lot of SS. Cheers, Chas From pmatilai at welho.com Thu Jul 15 14:12:35 2004 From: pmatilai at welho.com (Panu Matilainen) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:12:35 +0300 Subject: Screensavers in FC3 In-Reply-To: <40F64D71.4030003@redhat.com> References: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> <40F64D71.4030003@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1089900755.29471.8.camel@chip.laiskiainen.org> On Thu, 2004-07-15 at 12:25, Harald Hoyer wrote: > I can't believe screensavers are this popular to Linux users... > What a long thread :-) for *just* screensavers... > We must have a really stable distribution :) or are they just distraction from all the bugs? :) Seriously many of my friends, both from computer illiterate and Windows-camps simply drool over some of the screensavers Linux has. Does that have *anything* to do with reality of usability? No. But cool screensavers sure as hell makes people think "wow, linux has that kind of stuff as *screensavers*, wonder what else can it do my windows box doesn't" :) - Panu - > From mattdm at mattdm.org Thu Jul 15 16:10:11 2004 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:10:11 -0400 Subject: Screensavers in FC3 In-Reply-To: References: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> <40F5CF6E.6070901@silverorange.com> <1089851631.5048.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <40F5E9DC.5020608@matchmail.com> <1089864089.2548.19.camel@dhcp64-226.boston.redhat.com> <20040715075120.GA7543@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: <20040715161011.GA22941@jadzia.bu.edu> On Thu, Jul 15, 2004 at 04:25:54AM -0400, Mike A. Harris wrote: > We're trying to cut down on screensavers, not increase them. ;o) Bah. :) > Seriously though, Fedora Extras is the best place for something > like rss. Of course only after any legal issues that might exist The current rss package does a sick thing with sed and /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/app-defaults/XScreenSaver in its rpm postinstall scripts. Is there a way to avoid that other than including them in the base package? -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> From mattdm at mattdm.org Thu Jul 15 16:11:03 2004 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 12:11:03 -0400 Subject: Screensavers in FC3 In-Reply-To: <20040715161011.GA22941@jadzia.bu.edu> References: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> <40F5CF6E.6070901@silverorange.com> <1089851631.5048.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <40F5E9DC.5020608@matchmail.com> <1089864089.2548.19.camel@dhcp64-226.boston.redhat.com> <20040715075120.GA7543@jadzia.bu.edu> <20040715161011.GA22941@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: <20040715161103.GB22941@jadzia.bu.edu> On Thu, Jul 15, 2004 at 12:10:11PM -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: > The current rss package does a sick thing with sed and > /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/app-defaults/XScreenSaver in its rpm postinstall scripts. > Is there a way to avoid that other than including them in the base package? *notices rest of thread* (Nevermindme.) -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> From mfedyk at matchmail.com Thu Jul 15 17:25:18 2004 From: mfedyk at matchmail.com (Mike Fedyk) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 10:25:18 -0700 Subject: Screensavers in FC3 In-Reply-To: <40F6551B.7020807@xs4all.nl> References: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> <40F5CF6E.6070901@silverorange.com> <1089851631.5048.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <40F5E9DC.5020608@matchmail.com> <40F6551B.7020807@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <40F6BDFE.6010006@matchmail.com> Nils Breunese wrote: > Mike Fedyk wrote: > >> How about a four way split (feel free to come up with better names)? >> >> screensavers-base >> screensavers-3d >> screensavers-pretty (all judged to be better than the ones in misc) >> screensavers-misc (all of the ones you'd love to leave out completely) > > > Wouldn't it be better to create a separate OpenGL screensavers package? Yes. > Or is that the -3d package? Yes > I have a dual-head setup, one nvidia geforce4mx and an old sis pci > card. I like to run flurry, but it needs OpenGL and unfortunately that > sis card doesn't support it. So if my system starts the screensaver > one monitor has the pretty flurry visuals and the other one prints out > some errors. Having different screensavers on each screen would > probably involve changing xscreensaver? Dunno. From corywynn at comcast.net Thu Jul 15 17:41:38 2004 From: corywynn at comcast.net (corywynn at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:41:38 +0000 Subject: Custom Desktop Message-ID: <071520041741.4114.40F6C1D2000B13AB00001012220074567202029799979D010C@comcast.net> Forgive me if I am missing something but I am attempting to setup a small business with FC1 and my buddy who is willing to try it out only wants his clients to access certain apps from the desktop and little to no chance of file/desktop alteration. Can someone help me and/or direct me to how I might say only have default /home/anyuser environments that gives them only logout options, internet, and messenger? I am just curious. I can't find it anywhere. Thx for any help. Cory From strange at nsk.no-ip.org Thu Jul 15 19:12:22 2004 From: strange at nsk.no-ip.org (Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:12:22 +0100 Subject: Screensavers in FC3 In-Reply-To: <1089861919.2957.3.camel@bluesphere> References: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> <40F5CF6E.6070901@silverorange.com> <1089851631.5048.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <40F5E9DC.5020608@matchmail.com> <1089861919.2957.3.camel@bluesphere> Message-ID: <20040715191221.GA13965@nsk.no-ip.org> On Wed, Jul 14, 2004 at 11:25:19PM -0400, Chris Farber wrote: > I like this idea. > I'm not sure if a screensaver like this exists - but how about including > a slideshow screensaver, one that cycles through images in a directory > with some nice transitional effects [don't ask me to program this though > hehe]. Since this probably won't eat much cpu at all, it would make a > very nice choice for the screensavers-base package. There are many screensavers now that do that stuff. It's a xscreensaver option, to pick images from a directory, the desktop, or video frames. Fedora default could be changed from the desktop to random images from a directory. Regards, Luciano Rocha From mattdm at mattdm.org Thu Jul 15 19:21:39 2004 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:21:39 -0400 Subject: Screensavers in FC3 In-Reply-To: <20040715191221.GA13965@nsk.no-ip.org> References: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> <40F5CF6E.6070901@silverorange.com> <1089851631.5048.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <40F5E9DC.5020608@matchmail.com> <1089861919.2957.3.camel@bluesphere> <20040715191221.GA13965@nsk.no-ip.org> Message-ID: <20040715192139.GA31796@jadzia.bu.edu> On Thu, Jul 15, 2004 at 08:12:22PM +0100, Luciano Miguel Ferreira Rocha wrote: > Fedora default could be changed from the desktop to random images from a > directory. And should be -- it's annoying to lock your screen, only to find later that your desktop is exposed anyway. -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> From nphilipp at redhat.com Thu Jul 15 21:11:57 2004 From: nphilipp at redhat.com (Nils Philippsen) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 23:11:57 +0200 Subject: Screensavers in FC3 In-Reply-To: References: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> <40F5CF6E.6070901@silverorange.com> <1089851631.5048.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <40F5E9DC.5020608@matchmail.com> <1089864089.2548.19.camel@dhcp64-226.boston.redhat.com> <20040715075120.GA7543@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: <1089925917.4585.12.camel@gibraltar.stuttgart.redhat.com> On Thu, 2004-07-15 at 10:25, Mike A. Harris wrote: > Seriously though, Fedora Extras is the best place for something > like rss. Of course only after any legal issues that might exist > in the code can be investigated and resolved/concluded. Last I > checked there was some potential problems, and even low risks are > risks not worth taking for something as trivial as screensavers. > ;) Sorry, but I guess I've asked that question already -- which problems are there with rss (well, other than maybe that ugly matrixview hack that I'd be most happy to throw out ;-)? Nils -- Nils Philippsen / Red Hat / nphilipp at redhat.com "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- B. Franklin, 1759 PGP fingerprint: C4A8 9474 5C4C ADE3 2B8F 656D 47D8 9B65 6951 3011 From nphilipp at redhat.com Thu Jul 15 21:14:42 2004 From: nphilipp at redhat.com (Nils Philippsen) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 23:14:42 +0200 Subject: Screensavers in FC3 In-Reply-To: <40F64D71.4030003@redhat.com> References: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> <40F64D71.4030003@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1089926082.4585.16.camel@gibraltar.stuttgart.redhat.com> On Thu, 2004-07-15 at 11:25, Harald Hoyer wrote: > I can't believe screensavers are this popular to Linux users... > What a long thread :-) for *just* screensavers... They all just want rss-glx/skyrocket and I'm set to make that happen (one way or the other) ;-). Nils -- Nils Philippsen / Red Hat / nphilipp at redhat.com "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- B. Franklin, 1759 PGP fingerprint: C4A8 9474 5C4C ADE3 2B8F 656D 47D8 9B65 6951 3011 From nphilipp at redhat.com Thu Jul 15 21:17:41 2004 From: nphilipp at redhat.com (Nils Philippsen) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 23:17:41 +0200 Subject: Screensavers in FC3 In-Reply-To: <40F6551B.7020807@xs4all.nl> References: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> <40F5CF6E.6070901@silverorange.com> <1089851631.5048.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <40F5E9DC.5020608@matchmail.com> <40F6551B.7020807@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <1089926261.4585.19.camel@gibraltar.stuttgart.redhat.com> On Thu, 2004-07-15 at 11:57, Nils Breunese wrote: > Wouldn't it be better to create a separate OpenGL screensavers package? > Or is that the -3d package? I have a dual-head setup, one nvidia > geforce4mx and an old sis pci card. I like to run flurry, but it needs > OpenGL and unfortunately that sis card doesn't support it. So if my > system starts the screensaver one monitor has the pretty flurry visuals > and the other one prints out some errors. Having different screensavers > on each screen would probably involve changing xscreensaver? Surely. XScreensaver already marks GL hacks as such so I guess it would be doable to only call them if HW rendering for GL is available... Nils -- Nils Philippsen / Red Hat / nphilipp at redhat.com "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- B. Franklin, 1759 PGP fingerprint: C4A8 9474 5C4C ADE3 2B8F 656D 47D8 9B65 6951 3011 From srinivas at APone.com Fri Jul 16 00:52:31 2004 From: srinivas at APone.com (Srinivas Yalavarthy) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 20:52:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FC2 - Screen Resolution woes!!! Message-ID: <32855.68.160.37.217.1089939151.squirrel@webmail.apone.com> Hi, I've installed FC2 with all the latest updates. Desktop resolution is really bugging me. I have ATI RADEON 7200 card and Sun 21" monitor which Sony GDM-20E20. Here is the problem... In the windows manager I can set my resolution to 1600x1200 at 60. It works great. But when I reboot the box both during "start up" and "login screen" screen goes blank. Since I set to do "auto login" I do get the desktop but at 1152x864. This happens every time. I manually have to change the resolution back to 1600x1200. I am lost. Please Help. Here is /etc/X11/xorg.conf...... # Xorg configuration created by system-config-display Section "ServerLayout" Identifier "single head configuration" Screen 0 "Screen0" 0 0 InputDevice "Mouse0" "CorePointer" InputDevice "Keyboard0" "CoreKeyboard" EndSection Section "Files" # RgbPath is the location of the RGB database. Note, this is the name of the # file minus the extension (like ".txt" or ".db"). There is normally # no need to change the default. # Multiple FontPath entries are allowed (they are concatenated together) # By default, Red Hat 6.0 and later now use a font server independent of # the X server to render fonts. RgbPath "/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/rgb" FontPath "unix/:7100" EndSection Section "Module" Load "dbe" Load "extmod" Load "fbdevhw" Load "glx" Load "record" Load "freetype" Load "type1" Load "dri" EndSection Section "InputDevice" # Specify which keyboard LEDs can be user-controlled (eg, with xset(1)) # Option "Xleds" "1 2 3" # To disable the XKEYBOARD extension, uncomment XkbDisable. # Option "XkbDisable" # To customise the XKB settings to suit your keyboard, modify the # lines below (which are the defaults). For example, for a non-U.S. # keyboard, you will probably want to use: # Option "XkbModel" "pc102" # If you have a US Microsoft Natural keyboard, you can use: # Option "XkbModel" "microsoft" # # Then to change the language, change the Layout setting. # For example, a german layout can be obtained with: # Option "XkbLayout" "de" # or: # Option "XkbLayout" "de" # Option "XkbVariant" "nodeadkeys" # # If you'd like to switch the positions of your capslock and # control keys, use: # Option "XkbOptions" "ctrl:swapcaps" # Or if you just want both to be control, use: # Option "XkbOptions" "ctrl:nocaps" # Identifier "Keyboard0" Driver "keyboard" Option "XkbModel" "pc105" Option "XkbLayout" "us" EndSection Section "InputDevice" Identifier "Mouse0" Driver "mouse" Option "Protocol" "IMPS/2" Option "Device" "/dev/input/mice" Option "ZAxisMapping" "4 5" Option "Emulate3Buttons" "yes" EndSection Section "Monitor" Identifier "Monitor0" VendorName "Monitor Vendor" ModelName "Sony GDM-20SE2T5" HorizSync 30.0 - 96.0 VertRefresh 48.0 - 160.0 Option "dpms" EndSection Section "Device" Identifier "Videocard0" Driver "radeon" VendorName "Videocard vendor" BoardName "ATI Radeon 7200" EndSection Section "Screen" Identifier "Screen0" Device "Videocard0" Monitor "Monitor0" DefaultDepth 24 SubSection "Display" Viewport 0 0 Depth 24 Modes "1600x1200" "1400x1050" "1280x1024" "1280x960" "1152x864" "1024x768" "800x600" "640x480" EndSubSection EndSection Section "DRI" Group 0 Mode 0666 EndSection From wralphie at comcast.net Fri Jul 16 03:52:02 2004 From: wralphie at comcast.net (jludwig) Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 23:52:02 -0400 Subject: FC2 - Screen Resolution woes!!! In-Reply-To: <32855.68.160.37.217.1089939151.squirrel@webmail.apone.com> References: <32855.68.160.37.217.1089939151.squirrel@webmail.apone.com> Message-ID: <1089949922.3206.15.camel@jMOD.home> On Thu, 2004-07-15 at 20:52, Srinivas Yalavarthy wrote: > Hi, > > I've installed FC2 with all the latest updates. Desktop resolution > is really bugging me. I have ATI RADEON 7200 card and Sun 21" > monitor which Sony GDM-20E20. Here is the problem... > > In the windows manager I can set my resolution to 1600x1200 at 60. It works > great. But when I reboot the box both during "start up" and "login screen" > screen goes blank. Since I set to do "auto login" I do get the desktop but > at 1152x864. This happens every time. I manually have to change the > resolution back to 1600x1200. I am lost. Please Help. > > Here is /etc/X11/xorg.conf...... > > # Xorg configuration created by system-config-display > > Section "ServerLayout" > Identifier "single head configuration" > Screen 0 "Screen0" 0 0 > InputDevice "Mouse0" "CorePointer" > InputDevice "Keyboard0" "CoreKeyboard" > EndSection > > Section "Files" > > # RgbPath is the location of the RGB database. Note, this is the name of the > # file minus the extension (like ".txt" or ".db"). There is normally > # no need to change the default. > # Multiple FontPath entries are allowed (they are concatenated together) > # By default, Red Hat 6.0 and later now use a font server independent of > # the X server to render fonts. > RgbPath "/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/rgb" > FontPath "unix/:7100" > EndSection > > Section "Module" > Load "dbe" > Load "extmod" > Load "fbdevhw" > Load "glx" > Load "record" > Load "freetype" > Load "type1" > Load "dri" > EndSection > > Section "InputDevice" > > # Specify which keyboard LEDs can be user-controlled (eg, with xset(1)) > # Option "Xleds" "1 2 3" > # To disable the XKEYBOARD extension, uncomment XkbDisable. > # Option "XkbDisable" > # To customise the XKB settings to suit your keyboard, modify the > # lines below (which are the defaults). For example, for a non-U.S. > # keyboard, you will probably want to use: > # Option "XkbModel" "pc102" > # If you have a US Microsoft Natural keyboard, you can use: > # Option "XkbModel" "microsoft" > # > # Then to change the language, change the Layout setting. > # For example, a german layout can be obtained with: > # Option "XkbLayout" "de" > # or: > # Option "XkbLayout" "de" > # Option "XkbVariant" "nodeadkeys" > # > # If you'd like to switch the positions of your capslock and > # control keys, use: > # Option "XkbOptions" "ctrl:swapcaps" > # Or if you just want both to be control, use: > # Option "XkbOptions" "ctrl:nocaps" > # > Identifier "Keyboard0" > Driver "keyboard" > Option "XkbModel" "pc105" > Option "XkbLayout" "us" > EndSection > > Section "InputDevice" > Identifier "Mouse0" > Driver "mouse" > Option "Protocol" "IMPS/2" > Option "Device" "/dev/input/mice" > Option "ZAxisMapping" "4 5" > Option "Emulate3Buttons" "yes" > EndSection > > Section "Monitor" > Identifier "Monitor0" > VendorName "Monitor Vendor" > ModelName "Sony GDM-20SE2T5" > HorizSync 30.0 - 96.0 > VertRefresh 48.0 - 160.0 > Option "dpms" > EndSection > > Section "Device" > Identifier "Videocard0" > Driver "radeon" > VendorName "Videocard vendor" > BoardName "ATI Radeon 7200" > EndSection > > Section "Screen" > Identifier "Screen0" > Device "Videocard0" > Monitor "Monitor0" > DefaultDepth 24 > SubSection "Display" > Viewport 0 0 > Depth 24 > Modes "1600x1200" "1400x1050" "1280x1024" "1280x960" > "1152x864" "1024x768" "800x600" "640x480" > EndSubSection > EndSection > > Section "DRI" > Group 0 > Mode 0666 > EndSection What I don't see here is the amount of video memory available. If the window manager decides you don't have enough it will drop to a lower resolution. I would try setting for 16 bit DefaultDepth color setting. -- jludwig From nandox7 at myrealbox.com Fri Jul 16 08:04:23 2004 From: nandox7 at myrealbox.com (Nando) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 09:04:23 +0100 Subject: proposal to remove the "Start Here" icon References: <1089747121.16514.7.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <005501c46b0b$82a8cf50$0901a8c0@frozzen.com> I agree. The first thing i do after the login, is to send "Start Here" to trash. It's really useless. And i also agree, whit the inclusion of some sort of inicial "tutorial" or walk-trough. That could help a lot the Fedora Rookies. :) With some basic steps, where are some tools or how to configure some simple stuff. And why not a bit of Fedora, evolution history. ;) signature(); ?> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brent Fox" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 8:32 PM Subject: proposal to remove the "Start Here" icon > I propose that we remove the "Start Here" icon from the default desktop > for the following reasons: > > - It presents the same choices that the Main Menu does, just in a > different way. This is potentially confusing and inconsistent. The > Menu is a much faster way to launch apps anyway. > > - The name "Start Here" implies that there it will take you to a set of > steps to set up your desktop, but it doesn't do that. > > - It's basically useless. :) > > > I think a case could be made for a first-run desktop tutorial kind of > thing, but "Start Here" as it currently exists is not it. I propose > that we remove this icon for FC3test2 and see if anybody complains. > > > > Thoughts, > Brent > > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > > From mharris at www.linux.org.uk Fri Jul 16 09:17:52 2004 From: mharris at www.linux.org.uk (Mike A. Harris) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 05:17:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FC2 - Screen Resolution woes!!! In-Reply-To: <1089949922.3206.15.camel@jMOD.home> References: <32855.68.160.37.217.1089939151.squirrel@webmail.apone.com> <1089949922.3206.15.camel@jMOD.home> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Jul 2004, jludwig wrote: >> is really bugging me. I have ATI RADEON 7200 card and Sun 21" >> monitor which Sony GDM-20E20. Here is the problem... >> >> In the windows manager I can set my resolution to 1600x1200 at 60. It works >> great. But when I reboot the box both during "start up" and "login screen" >> screen goes blank. Since I set to do "auto login" I do get the desktop but >> at 1152x864. This happens every time. I manually have to change the >> resolution back to 1600x1200. I am lost. Please Help. >> >> Here is /etc/X11/xorg.conf...... >> >> # Xorg configuration created by system-config-display >> >> Section "ServerLayout" >> Identifier "single head configuration" >> Screen 0 "Screen0" 0 0 >> InputDevice "Mouse0" "CorePointer" >> InputDevice "Keyboard0" "CoreKeyboard" >> EndSection >> >> Section "Files" >> >> # RgbPath is the location of the RGB database. Note, this is the name of the >> # file minus the extension (like ".txt" or ".db"). There is normally >> # no need to change the default. >> # Multiple FontPath entries are allowed (they are concatenated together) >> # By default, Red Hat 6.0 and later now use a font server independent of >> # the X server to render fonts. >> RgbPath "/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/rgb" >> FontPath "unix/:7100" >> EndSection >> >> Section "Module" >> Load "dbe" >> Load "extmod" >> Load "fbdevhw" >> Load "glx" >> Load "record" >> Load "freetype" >> Load "type1" >> Load "dri" >> EndSection >> >> Section "InputDevice" >> >> # Specify which keyboard LEDs can be user-controlled (eg, with xset(1)) >> # Option "Xleds" "1 2 3" >> # To disable the XKEYBOARD extension, uncomment XkbDisable. >> # Option "XkbDisable" >> # To customise the XKB settings to suit your keyboard, modify the >> # lines below (which are the defaults). For example, for a non-U.S. >> # keyboard, you will probably want to use: >> # Option "XkbModel" "pc102" >> # If you have a US Microsoft Natural keyboard, you can use: >> # Option "XkbModel" "microsoft" >> # >> # Then to change the language, change the Layout setting. >> # For example, a german layout can be obtained with: >> # Option "XkbLayout" "de" >> # or: >> # Option "XkbLayout" "de" >> # Option "XkbVariant" "nodeadkeys" >> # >> # If you'd like to switch the positions of your capslock and >> # control keys, use: >> # Option "XkbOptions" "ctrl:swapcaps" >> # Or if you just want both to be control, use: >> # Option "XkbOptions" "ctrl:nocaps" >> # >> Identifier "Keyboard0" >> Driver "keyboard" >> Option "XkbModel" "pc105" >> Option "XkbLayout" "us" >> EndSection >> >> Section "InputDevice" >> Identifier "Mouse0" >> Driver "mouse" >> Option "Protocol" "IMPS/2" >> Option "Device" "/dev/input/mice" >> Option "ZAxisMapping" "4 5" >> Option "Emulate3Buttons" "yes" >> EndSection >> >> Section "Monitor" >> Identifier "Monitor0" >> VendorName "Monitor Vendor" >> ModelName "Sony GDM-20SE2T5" >> HorizSync 30.0 - 96.0 >> VertRefresh 48.0 - 160.0 >> Option "dpms" >> EndSection >> >> Section "Device" >> Identifier "Videocard0" >> Driver "radeon" >> VendorName "Videocard vendor" >> BoardName "ATI Radeon 7200" >> EndSection >> >> Section "Screen" >> Identifier "Screen0" >> Device "Videocard0" >> Monitor "Monitor0" >> DefaultDepth 24 >> SubSection "Display" >> Viewport 0 0 >> Depth 24 >> Modes "1600x1200" "1400x1050" "1280x1024" "1280x960" >> "1152x864" "1024x768" "800x600" "640x480" >> EndSubSection >> EndSection >> >> Section "DRI" >> Group 0 >> Mode 0666 >> EndSection >What I don't see here is the amount of video memory available. If the >window manager decides you don't have enough it will drop to a lower >resolution. Never ever put the VideoRam setting in the X server config file. When that setting gets used, in almost all cases it is used incorrectly and *causes* problems for the user. Every video driver contains code to autodetect video memory, which is automatically used, and in most of the video drivers it is correct. In the Radeon driver it is correct 100% of the time, and I have intentionally patched our driver to ignore the VideoRAM option to prevent people from breaking their configuration by overriding the amount of video memory. The mga driver permits the VideoRAM option, because the proper way to do memory detection for G400 is unknown. All other Matrox hardware memory detection should work correctly for and should never be specified by the user. The nv driver, permits it for Nvidia RivaTNT, as it isn't known how to detect memory on that hardware either. All other Nvidia hardware should autodetect properly however. The i810 driver permits this setting, but it uses it slightly differently that most. In addition to being able to limit memory lower than what the BIOS has configured memory for, it is capable of increasing the amount of memory stolen from the system - *but* this feature only works on certain systems, and not at all on others. Some of the remaining drivers have the odd board or two they can't autodetect memory for also, and so the VideoRAM setting can be used to tell the driver the real amount of Video memory on the card - but it should only be used by experienced users who truely know how much memory the card has on it and would bet their life savings on the number they provide to the driver. Getting this number wrong has one of 2 major consequences. In the first case, you specify memory lower than what you really have - this limits the amount of memory available and depending on how low you go wrong, it may cause certain video modes/refresh rates to no longer be available, or it may cause the driver to disable DRI as there isn't enough memory for textures, or it may cause video overlays to no longer work, or some other feature to stop working. Generally the log file will inform about anything being disabled and why. In the worst case, you specify memory HIGHER than what you really have, either because "the guy at the computer store told me this was a 128Mb video card, but X says it's only 64Mb, so X is broken and I'm fixing it", or for some other reason you are convinced the video driver's video memory autodetection is wrong. In almost 100% of bug reports received in which videoRam is being used to override memory autodetection in this manner, the "computer store guy" lied, or was otherwise wrong, or the person was somehow otherwise misled into thinking they had a card with more memory on it than it really does. A good test of how much video memory is available, is to boot into Microsoft Windows with the manufacturer's official Windows drivers and see how much video memory there is. The exact procedure to do so is left as an exercise to the reader however. ;o) If the video driver is told there is 128Mb of memory, it WILL TRY TO USE IT ALL. This means that if you have a 64Mb card, it will write to memory beyond 64Mb. What happens at that point depends on how things are wired on the card and a number of other factors. In some cases memory address access wraps around to the beginning of video memory, causing writes over 64Mb point to be written to the 0Mb point, etc. That will corrupt video memory, pixmap memory, mouse pointer memory, buffers used by the 2D and/or 3D engines, or any other number of problems. Another problem, is if you're using a multihead card. VideoRAM option needs to be specified per head, and the total has to be equal or less than the total video memory that is really available. People usually put the real total in both places, so the video driver thinks each head has the total amount of memory, which of course breaks things. When people experience these odd problems, it usually appears as if the video card is severely broken, or the video drivers are just totally insanely broken. Bug reports come in which are usually quite obscure, and unless the person reviewing them notices VideoRAM being used and being a possible culprit, a great number of hours or days of time could potentially be wasted on a red herring bug report. As such, when I see people suggesting the use of VideoRAM for a particular problem, I feel compelled to take the soapbox and spread the truth about this evil option. ;o) On the good side of things however, I've disabled the VideoRAM setting on the Radeon driver, so that it is impossible to override the driver detected memory. The driver will refuse the setting and log a comment to the log file stating: (II) VideoRAM override ignored, this driver autodetects RAM While I've made the Radeon driver sane, it's slightly trickier to disable this setting in most other drivers, as each driver seems to have one or two ancient cards that require this parameter. As such, I decided to leave the other drivers be when I did the Radeon patch, with plans on labotomizing this option on the other drivers once I had time to google around to determine what chips in each driver really do need the option - and then to disable the option on all chips except those that truely do need it. Nowadays though, most hardware works fine with autodetection, so it might be a good idea to just disable the option across the board except on hardware we already know needs it (like RivaTNT, G400 and a few others), and then just wait for bug reports from people who say "the video driver detects the wrong amount of video memory". It would be easier to troubleshoot these cases for people, and to update the driver to permit VideoRam overrides on chips the driver turns out to get it wrong on. I believe this will make the drivers more robust against user misconfiguration and will reduce the number of unnecessary bug reports received both upstream and by us. In the mean time however, the VideoRAM setting is not your friend. It is there to make your life harder, and to allow people to unintentionally and innocently break their setups. Ignore the naysayers and repent! ;o) There, I feel better now. Please spread the knowledge of the evils of VideoRAM around any time you hear someone suggest using the option. Eventually it will lead to world peace. ;o) >I would try setting for 16 bit DefaultDepth color setting. Shouldn't make a difference, a Radeon 7200 has enough video memory (32Mb minimum) to use the largest resoltion the card is capable of displaying (2048x1536) at the highest color depth, with 3D acceleration enabled. If changing the color depth does however make a difference, there is a bug somewhere. If so, please bugzilla it and attach the X server log file and the config file that was used during that log file's invocation. Thanks in advance! From wtogami at redhat.com Fri Jul 16 10:15:42 2004 From: wtogami at redhat.com (Warren Togami) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 00:15:42 -1000 Subject: Gnome image viewers In-Reply-To: <1089972351.30295.38.camel@chip.laiskiainen.org> References: <1089921833.2694.12.camel@tiger> <40F7A3D2.9000702@redhat.com> <1089972351.30295.38.camel@chip.laiskiainen.org> Message-ID: <40F7AACE.5080106@redhat.com> Panu Matilainen wrote: > On Fri, 2004-07-16 at 12:45, Warren Togami wrote: > >>Louis Garcia wrote: >> >>>Why are there two image viewers for gnome. Eog and gthumb basically do >>>the same thing. I personally like gthumb as eog ui can use some work. As >>>I understand eog is used as a bonobo component for nautilus to display >>>images in the nautilus window. Why can't we just move the bonobo >>>component to gthumb and kill eog? >>> >> >>In my experience gthumb seems to be less buggy than eog, especially in >>printing of large graphics. eog seems to intermittently lockup during >>printing or exhibit other weird behavior... while gthumb at least works. >> This is true of latest rawhide too... > > > In my experience, and just verified by looking what eog does nowadays > (==not much), eog and gthumb cannot be even compared. Gthumb is what I > call an image viewer application, eog is a dumb "open this one image for > me" application. If you ask me, eog as an image viewer application is 2 > megabytes of wasted diskspace. Ok since it's used by nautilus then > that's a justification for it's existence but can we please throw it out > of the menu and replace it with gthumb as the default "Image Viewer" > application? > > - Panu - Totally in agreement, can we make gthumb default instead of eog for FC3? Warren Togami wtogami at redhat.com From wtogami at redhat.com Fri Jul 16 10:48:26 2004 From: wtogami at redhat.com (Warren Togami) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 00:48:26 -1000 Subject: proposal to remove the "Start Here" icon In-Reply-To: <200407131354480.SM02580@asgard> References: <200407131354480.SM02580@asgard> Message-ID: <40F7B27A.70402@redhat.com> Steven Noonan wrote: > I agree with this. The 'Start Here' icon is useless, even for newbies. If > they have a brain in their head they should figure out how to click on the > 'Start Menu' equivalent (at least, from a Windows-user's point of view). Has anyone opened a RH Bugzilla to track this? While we are all in agreement here, it may become forgotten and never happen if it isn't filed and become a FC3 Target. Warren Togami wtogami at redhat.com From gopal_kulkarni at hotmail.com Fri Jul 16 13:28:26 2004 From: gopal_kulkarni at hotmail.com (GOPAL KULKARNI) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:28:26 +0000 Subject: Sound not working : Installed Fedora 2.6 on DELL Inspiron 9100 Message-ID: All:, I have installed Fedora on DELL Inspiron 9100 machine, everything is working except sound. Is there any workaround for this problem? Thanks in Advance. Regards Gopal Kulkarni _________________________________________________________________ Reach out to millions of buyers. http://go.msnserver.com/IN/52047.asp With zero investment. From ba at linuxin.dk Fri Jul 16 14:02:38 2004 From: ba at linuxin.dk (Bjorn Andersen) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 16:02:38 +0200 Subject: proposal to remove the "Start Here" icon In-Reply-To: <005501c46b0b$82a8cf50$0901a8c0@frozzen.com> References: <1089747121.16514.7.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com> <005501c46b0b$82a8cf50$0901a8c0@frozzen.com> Message-ID: <1089986558.3452.5.camel@Mars> What about removing the GNOME-start -> "System Config" instead and place "Start Here" in that menu? It is frustrating for a new user to see the admin options, that they have no rights to enter. Maby then put the system tools in the same menu? A little Menu cleanup is in order. /Bjorn fre, 2004-07-16 kl. 10:04 skrev Nando: > I agree. > The first thing i do after the login, is to send "Start Here" to trash. > It's really useless. > And i also agree, whit the inclusion of some sort of inicial "tutorial" or > walk-trough. That could help a lot the Fedora Rookies. :) > With some basic steps, where are some tools or how to configure some simple > stuff. And why not a bit of Fedora, evolution history. ;) > > > Nando->signature(); > ?> > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brent Fox" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 8:32 PM > Subject: proposal to remove the "Start Here" icon > > > > I propose that we remove the "Start Here" icon from the default desktop > > for the following reasons: > > > > - It presents the same choices that the Main Menu does, just in a > > different way. This is potentially confusing and inconsistent. The > > Menu is a much faster way to launch apps anyway. > > > > - The name "Start Here" implies that there it will take you to a set of > > steps to set up your desktop, but it doesn't do that. > > > > - It's basically useless. :) > > > > > > I think a case could be made for a first-run desktop tutorial kind of > > thing, but "Start Here" as it currently exists is not it. I propose > > that we remove this icon for FC3test2 and see if anybody complains. > > > > > > > > Thoughts, > > Brent > > > > > > -- > > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > > > > > > From bfox at redhat.com Fri Jul 16 14:04:23 2004 From: bfox at redhat.com (Brent Fox) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:04:23 -0400 Subject: proposal to remove the "Start Here" icon In-Reply-To: <40F7B27A.70402@redhat.com> References: <200407131354480.SM02580@asgard> <40F7B27A.70402@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1089986663.12804.15.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com> On Fri, 2004-07-16 at 06:48, Warren Togami wrote: > Steven Noonan wrote: > > I agree with this. The 'Start Here' icon is useless, even for newbies. If > > they have a brain in their head they should figure out how to click on the > > 'Start Menu' equivalent (at least, from a Windows-user's point of view). > > Has anyone opened a RH Bugzilla to track this? While we are all in > agreement here, it may become forgotten and never happen if it isn't > filed and become a FC3 Target. http://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=128021 --Brent From Pilla.Venkataratnam at ge.com Fri Jul 16 14:06:22 2004 From: Pilla.Venkataratnam at ge.com (Pilla, Venkataratnam (GE Consumer Finance)) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:06:22 +0100 Subject: Sound not working : Installed Fedora 2.6 on DELL Inspiron 9100 Message-ID: Hi Gopal, By default sound comes with mute turned on for some reason. Use aumix to unmute, particularly Pcm and Pcm2 for the speakers. I haven't tried the headphone jack yet. The built-in speakers are amazingly good. Cheers Venkat -----Original Message----- From: fedora-desktop-list-bounces at redhat.com [mailto:fedora-desktop-list-bounces at redhat.com] On Behalf Of GOPAL KULKARNI Sent: 16 July 2004 14:28 To: fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com Subject: Sound not working : Installed Fedora 2.6 on DELL Inspiron 9100 All:, I have installed Fedora on DELL Inspiron 9100 machine, everything is working except sound. Is there any workaround for this problem? Thanks in Advance. Regards Gopal Kulkarni _________________________________________________________________ Reach out to millions of buyers. http://go.msnserver.com/IN/52047.asp With zero investment. -- Fedora-desktop-list mailing list Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list From swardell at team.bantu.com Fri Jul 16 15:56:53 2004 From: swardell at team.bantu.com (Steve Wardell) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 11:56:53 -0400 Subject: terminal services prototype (Remote desktops using VNC) Message-ID: <40F7FAC5.3080406@team.bantu.com> This was listed as being part of Fedore Core 3 Test 1, but I'm unable to find how to use / set this up. Was this part of that release? If so, how do I configure / enable it? Thanks, Steve From wralphie at comcast.net Fri Jul 16 16:35:16 2004 From: wralphie at comcast.net (jludwig) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 12:35:16 -0400 Subject: FC2 - Screen Resolution woes!!! In-Reply-To: References: <32855.68.160.37.217.1089939151.squirrel@webmail.apone.com> <1089949922.3206.15.camel@jMOD.home> Message-ID: <1089995715.3298.1.camel@jMOD.home> On Fri, 2004-07-16 at 05:17, Mike A. Harris wrote: > On Thu, 15 Jul 2004, jludwig wrote: > > >> is really bugging me. I have ATI RADEON 7200 card and Sun 21" > >> monitor which Sony GDM-20E20. Here is the problem... > >> > >> In the windows manager I can set my resolution to 1600x1200 at 60. It works > >> great. But when I reboot the box both during "start up" and "login screen" > >> screen goes blank. Since I set to do "auto login" I do get the desktop but > >> at 1152x864. This happens every time. I manually have to change the > >> resolution back to 1600x1200. I am lost. Please Help. > >> > >> Here is /etc/X11/xorg.conf...... > >> > >> # Xorg configuration created by system-config-display > >> > >> Section "ServerLayout" > >> Identifier "single head configuration" > >> Screen 0 "Screen0" 0 0 > >> InputDevice "Mouse0" "CorePointer" > >> InputDevice "Keyboard0" "CoreKeyboard" > >> EndSection > >> > >> Section "Files" > >> > >> # RgbPath is the location of the RGB database. Note, this is the name of the > >> # file minus the extension (like ".txt" or ".db"). There is normally > >> # no need to change the default. > >> # Multiple FontPath entries are allowed (they are concatenated together) > >> # By default, Red Hat 6.0 and later now use a font server independent of > >> # the X server to render fonts. > >> RgbPath "/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/rgb" > >> FontPath "unix/:7100" > >> EndSection > >> > >> Section "Module" > >> Load "dbe" > >> Load "extmod" > >> Load "fbdevhw" > >> Load "glx" > >> Load "record" > >> Load "freetype" > >> Load "type1" > >> Load "dri" > >> EndSection > >> > >> Section "InputDevice" > >> > >> # Specify which keyboard LEDs can be user-controlled (eg, with xset(1)) > >> # Option "Xleds" "1 2 3" > >> # To disable the XKEYBOARD extension, uncomment XkbDisable. > >> # Option "XkbDisable" > >> # To customise the XKB settings to suit your keyboard, modify the > >> # lines below (which are the defaults). For example, for a non-U.S. > >> # keyboard, you will probably want to use: > >> # Option "XkbModel" "pc102" > >> # If you have a US Microsoft Natural keyboard, you can use: > >> # Option "XkbModel" "microsoft" > >> # > >> # Then to change the language, change the Layout setting. > >> # For example, a german layout can be obtained with: > >> # Option "XkbLayout" "de" > >> # or: > >> # Option "XkbLayout" "de" > >> # Option "XkbVariant" "nodeadkeys" > >> # > >> # If you'd like to switch the positions of your capslock and > >> # control keys, use: > >> # Option "XkbOptions" "ctrl:swapcaps" > >> # Or if you just want both to be control, use: > >> # Option "XkbOptions" "ctrl:nocaps" > >> # > >> Identifier "Keyboard0" > >> Driver "keyboard" > >> Option "XkbModel" "pc105" > >> Option "XkbLayout" "us" > >> EndSection > >> > >> Section "InputDevice" > >> Identifier "Mouse0" > >> Driver "mouse" > >> Option "Protocol" "IMPS/2" > >> Option "Device" "/dev/input/mice" > >> Option "ZAxisMapping" "4 5" > >> Option "Emulate3Buttons" "yes" > >> EndSection > >> > >> Section "Monitor" > >> Identifier "Monitor0" > >> VendorName "Monitor Vendor" > >> ModelName "Sony GDM-20SE2T5" > >> HorizSync 30.0 - 96.0 > >> VertRefresh 48.0 - 160.0 > >> Option "dpms" > >> EndSection > >> > >> Section "Device" > >> Identifier "Videocard0" > >> Driver "radeon" > >> VendorName "Videocard vendor" > >> BoardName "ATI Radeon 7200" > >> EndSection > >> > >> Section "Screen" > >> Identifier "Screen0" > >> Device "Videocard0" > >> Monitor "Monitor0" > >> DefaultDepth 24 > >> SubSection "Display" > >> Viewport 0 0 > >> Depth 24 > >> Modes "1600x1200" "1400x1050" "1280x1024" "1280x960" > >> "1152x864" "1024x768" "800x600" "640x480" > >> EndSubSection > >> EndSection > >> > >> Section "DRI" > >> Group 0 > >> Mode 0666 > >> EndSection > >What I don't see here is the amount of video memory available. If the > >window manager decides you don't have enough it will drop to a lower > >resolution. > > Never ever put the VideoRam setting in the X server config file. Snip I know that, but, I had no idea how much memory the card had and if you are not familiar with the card how would you know. jludwig From alexl at redhat.com Fri Jul 16 17:05:23 2004 From: alexl at redhat.com (Alexander Larsson) Date: 16 Jul 2004 19:05:23 +0200 Subject: proposal to remove the "Start Here" icon In-Reply-To: <1089986663.12804.15.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com> References: <200407131354480.SM02580@asgard> <40F7B27A.70402@redhat.com> <1089986663.12804.15.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1089997523.9530.133.camel@greebo.homeip.net> On Fri, 2004-07-16 at 16:04, Brent Fox wrote: > On Fri, 2004-07-16 at 06:48, Warren Togami wrote: > > Steven Noonan wrote: > > > I agree with this. The 'Start Here' icon is useless, even for newbies. If > > > they have a brain in their head they should figure out how to click on the > > > 'Start Menu' equivalent (at least, from a Windows-user's point of view). > > > > Has anyone opened a RH Bugzilla to track this? While we are all in > > agreement here, it may become forgotten and never happen if it isn't > > filed and become a FC3 Target. > > http://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=128021 I just killed Start here in upstream nautilus. It will go away when we update. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Alexander Larsson Red Hat, Inc alexl at redhat.com alla at lysator.liu.se He's a world-famous coffee-fuelled farmboy on his last day in the job. She's an orphaned green-skinned widow who don't take no shit from nobody. They fight crime! From bfox at redhat.com Fri Jul 16 17:09:48 2004 From: bfox at redhat.com (Brent Fox) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 13:09:48 -0400 Subject: proposal to remove the "Start Here" icon In-Reply-To: <1089997523.9530.133.camel@greebo.homeip.net> References: <200407131354480.SM02580@asgard> <40F7B27A.70402@redhat.com> <1089986663.12804.15.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com> <1089997523.9530.133.camel@greebo.homeip.net> Message-ID: <1089997788.12804.50.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com> On Fri, 2004-07-16 at 13:05, Alexander Larsson wrote: > On Fri, 2004-07-16 at 16:04, Brent Fox wrote: > > On Fri, 2004-07-16 at 06:48, Warren Togami wrote: > > > Steven Noonan wrote: > > > > I agree with this. The 'Start Here' icon is useless, even for newbies. If > > > > they have a brain in their head they should figure out how to click on the > > > > 'Start Menu' equivalent (at least, from a Windows-user's point of view). > > > > > > Has anyone opened a RH Bugzilla to track this? While we are all in > > > agreement here, it may become forgotten and never happen if it isn't > > > filed and become a FC3 Target. > > > > http://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=128021 > > > I just killed Start here in upstream nautilus. It will go away when we > update. Great. Thanks. --Brent > > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > Alexander Larsson Red Hat, Inc > alexl at redhat.com alla at lysator.liu.se > He's a world-famous coffee-fuelled farmboy on his last day in the job. She's > an orphaned green-skinned widow who don't take no shit from nobody. They fight > crime! > From nandox7 at myrealbox.com Fri Jul 16 19:26:49 2004 From: nandox7 at myrealbox.com (Fernando Morais) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 20:26:49 +0100 Subject: proposal to remove the "Start Here" icon References: <1089747121.16514.7.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com><005501c46b0b$82a8cf50$0901a8c0@frozzen.com> <1089986558.3452.5.camel@Mars> Message-ID: <000e01c46b6a$d8574580$0901a8c0@frozzen.com> I agree with this also. A menu cleanup, and re-arrange is a need. Some config tools, are scattered over some menus. Will gnome menu editing, will be possible in FC3? Is it planned? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bjorn Andersen" To: "Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop" Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 3:02 PM Subject: Re: proposal to remove the "Start Here" icon > What about removing the GNOME-start -> "System Config" instead and place > "Start Here" in that menu? It is frustrating for a new user to see the > admin options, that they have no rights to enter. > > Maby then put the system tools in the same menu? > > A little Menu cleanup is in order. > > > > /Bjorn > > > fre, 2004-07-16 kl. 10:04 skrev Nando: > > I agree. > > The first thing i do after the login, is to send "Start Here" to trash. > > It's really useless. > > And i also agree, whit the inclusion of some sort of inicial "tutorial" or > > walk-trough. That could help a lot the Fedora Rookies. :) > > With some basic steps, where are some tools or how to configure some simple > > stuff. And why not a bit of Fedora, evolution history. ;) > > > > > > > Nando->signature(); > > ?> > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Brent Fox" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 8:32 PM > > Subject: proposal to remove the "Start Here" icon > > > > > > > I propose that we remove the "Start Here" icon from the default desktop > > > for the following reasons: > > > > > > - It presents the same choices that the Main Menu does, just in a > > > different way. This is potentially confusing and inconsistent. The > > > Menu is a much faster way to launch apps anyway. > > > > > > - The name "Start Here" implies that there it will take you to a set of > > > steps to set up your desktop, but it doesn't do that. > > > > > > - It's basically useless. :) > > > > > > > > > I think a case could be made for a first-run desktop tutorial kind of > > > thing, but "Start Here" as it currently exists is not it. I propose > > > that we remove this icon for FC3test2 and see if anybody complains. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thoughts, > > > Brent > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > > > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > > > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > > From smahon at gmail.com Fri Jul 16 22:06:55 2004 From: smahon at gmail.com (Shawn Mahon) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 17:06:55 -0500 Subject: Nautilus Icon Selection Screen Message-ID: <1ab923910407161506607b0ca9@mail.gmail.com> This may be a fairly trivial question, but here goes. When I create a new launcher and try to select a custom icon it opens the screen which shows /usr/src/pixmaps. If I want to select a new directory I type the path in the top, however it doesnt attempt to autocomplete the path, nor does it show directories listed in the path. This is kind of annoying since some of my icon folders are buried deep, and i have to type the exact path from memory. Is this a setting I messed up, or is there a way to fix it? If you need me to elaborate or want a screenshot of the exact window let me know. Thanks for your time, Shawn From mgordon at matchmail.com Fri Jul 16 22:56:23 2004 From: mgordon at matchmail.com (Mark Gordon) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:56:23 -0700 Subject: proposal to remove the "Start Here" icon In-Reply-To: <1089997788.12804.50.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com> References: <200407131354480.SM02580@asgard> <40F7B27A.70402@redhat.com> <1089986663.12804.15.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com> <1089997523.9530.133.camel@greebo.homeip.net> <1089997788.12804.50.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <40F85D17.7090903@matchmail.com> Brent Fox wrote: >On Fri, 2004-07-16 at 13:05, Alexander Larsson wrote: > > >>On Fri, 2004-07-16 at 16:04, Brent Fox wrote: >> >> >>>On Fri, 2004-07-16 at 06:48, Warren Togami wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Steven Noonan wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>I agree with this. The 'Start Here' icon is useless, even for newbies. If >>>>>they have a brain in their head they should figure out how to click on the >>>>>'Start Menu' equivalent (at least, from a Windows-user's point of view). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>Has anyone opened a RH Bugzilla to track this? While we are all in >>>>agreement here, it may become forgotten and never happen if it isn't >>>>filed and become a FC3 Target. >>>> >>>> >>>http://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=128021 >>> >>> >>I just killed Start here in upstream nautilus. It will go away when we >>update. >> >> > >Great. Thanks. > > >--Brent > > > >>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= >> Alexander Larsson Red Hat, Inc >> alexl at redhat.com alla at lysator.liu.se >>He's a world-famous coffee-fuelled farmboy on his last day in the job. She's >>an orphaned green-skinned widow who don't take no shit from nobody. They fight >>crime! >> >> >> If this icon really bothers you, just delete it. For people who want to keep it , I think that's cool to have a second way to access all those tools. Mark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mfedyk at matchmail.com Fri Jul 16 23:20:34 2004 From: mfedyk at matchmail.com (Mike Fedyk) Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 16:20:34 -0700 Subject: proposal to remove the "Start Here" icon In-Reply-To: <1089747121.16514.7.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com> References: <1089747121.16514.7.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <40F862C2.3010801@matchmail.com> Brent Fox wrote: >I propose that we remove the "Start Here" icon from the default desktop >for the following reasons: > >- It presents the same choices that the Main Menu does, just in a >different way. This is potentially confusing and inconsistent. The >Menu is a much faster way to launch apps anyway. > > But it's nice to have one window with all of the "panels" available for double clicking on. It's a pain to have to go through the menu to get to each pref panel especially on low resolution. >- The name "Start Here" implies that there it will take you to a set of >steps to set up your desktop, but it doesn't do that. > > But it does. It gives you the preferences and system settings in a window, which some people prefer to the menus. >- It's basically useless. :) > > Allowing another way to get the same window should still be there though. >I think a case could be made for a first-run desktop tutorial kind of >thing, but "Start Here" as it currently exists is not it. I propose >that we remove this icon for FC3test2 and see if anybody complains. > > Maybe "start here" should be renamed to "Control Panel" or something. While it isn't a step through introduction to the system, it does provide an alternate view in the "spacial" way. You're not taking away the "start-here:///" target in nautilus are you? Mike From otaylor at redhat.com Sat Jul 17 14:37:45 2004 From: otaylor at redhat.com (Owen Taylor) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 10:37:45 -0400 Subject: proposal to remove the "Start Here" icon In-Reply-To: <40F862C2.3010801@matchmail.com> References: <1089747121.16514.7.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com> <40F862C2.3010801@matchmail.com> Message-ID: <1090075064.2902.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2004-07-16 at 19:20, Mike Fedyk wrote: > Brent Fox wrote: > > >I propose that we remove the "Start Here" icon from the default desktop > >for the following reasons: > > > >- It presents the same choices that the Main Menu does, just in a > >different way. This is potentially confusing and inconsistent. The > >Menu is a much faster way to launch apps anyway. > > > > > But it's nice to have one window with all of the "panels" available for > double clicking on. It's a pain to have to go through the menu to get > to each pref panel especially on low resolution. Just to give some historical background, when we introduced Start Here in Red Hat 8 or so, our goal, or at least, my goal, was to deemphasize and hopefully eventually get rid of the big panel menu. For apps there are basically three things the user might want to do: - Start an app they are already familiar with. Finding an item two levels deep in a big menu is an awful way to do this. You want to encourage, even force the user to make a favorites menu entry for it. - Start an app that they don't know about yet to accomplish a particular task. The panel menu is an awful way of searching for an app to do a particular task. - Browse through the apps on the system seeing what cool things they can do. The panel menu is an awful way of browsing apps on the system. I'd much rather see a menu used only as a short list of favorite applications and common actions like "logout" and have a real app browser for everything else. But I've never been very successful at pushing this point of view... Regards, Owen -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From walters at redhat.com Sat Jul 17 17:33:42 2004 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 13:33:42 -0400 Subject: proposal to remove the "Start Here" icon In-Reply-To: <1090075064.2902.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1089747121.16514.7.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com> <40F862C2.3010801@matchmail.com> <1090075064.2902.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1090085622.4445.15.camel@nexus.verbum.private> On Sat, 2004-07-17 at 10:37 -0400, Owen Taylor wrote: > Just to give some historical background, when we introduced Start Here > in Red Hat 8 or so, our goal, or at least, my goal, was to deemphasize > and hopefully eventually get rid of the big panel menu. Ok, that's a pretty good goal I think. But the reason I never used "Start Here" is simply because I could never see it - I always run nearly every application maximized. The panel menu is always accessible and in the same place. I do think "Start Here" has a major advantage over the panel menu in that it's meaningful to someone new to our desktop - when I first switched to Fedora it took me a minute to realize that the Red Hat icon was actually a menu. Before I'd been used nearly stock upstream GNOME on Debian for years, with the "Applications" menu. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mfedyk at matchmail.com Sat Jul 17 18:17:27 2004 From: mfedyk at matchmail.com (Mike Fedyk) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 11:17:27 -0700 Subject: proposal to remove the "Start Here" icon In-Reply-To: <1090075064.2902.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1089747121.16514.7.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com> <40F862C2.3010801@matchmail.com> <1090075064.2902.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <40F96D37.8090806@matchmail.com> Owen Taylor wrote: >On Fri, 2004-07-16 at 19:20, Mike Fedyk wrote: > > >>Brent Fox wrote: >> >> >> >>>I propose that we remove the "Start Here" icon from the default desktop >>>for the following reasons: >>> >>>- It presents the same choices that the Main Menu does, just in a >>>different way. This is potentially confusing and inconsistent. The >>>Menu is a much faster way to launch apps anyway. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>But it's nice to have one window with all of the "panels" available for >>double clicking on. It's a pain to have to go through the menu to get >>to each pref panel especially on low resolution. >> >> > >Just to give some historical background, when we introduced Start Here >in Red Hat 8 or so, our goal, or at least, my goal, was to deemphasize >and hopefully eventually get rid of the big panel menu. > > Thanks Owen, >For apps there are basically three things the user might want to do: > > - Start an app they are > already familiar with. Finding an item two levels > deep in a big menu is an awful way to do this. You want to encourage, > even force the user to make a favorites menu entry for it. > > Encourage yes. Force, no. A MRU and MFU application list in the red hat/start menu seems like a good solution. > - Start an app that they don't know about yet to accomplish a > particular task. The panel menu is an awful way of searching for > an app to do a particular task. > > Yep, but most people have been trained to do that, and concepts like "search" don't really seem to penetrate into their psyche. :-/ > - Browse through the apps on the system seeing what cool things > they can do. The panel menu is an awful way of browsing apps on > the system. > > True. Why not have both? Windows did this by using base concepts of directories and shortcuts. And it allows the user to modify their menu layout with base tools. Very unix like don't you think? > >I'd much rather see a menu used only as a short list of favorite >applications and common actions like "logout" and have a real app >browser for everything else. > > Well, where is this app browser you mention? If that's the intention of "start here" then it's really missing the desired functionality... >But I've never been very successful at pushing this point of view... > > Maybe with some work it can get somewhere. From kas11 at tampabay.rr.com Sat Jul 17 22:10:57 2004 From: kas11 at tampabay.rr.com (K. Spearel) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 18:10:57 -0400 Subject: proposal to remove the "Start Here" icon In-Reply-To: <1090075064.2902.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1089747121.16514.7.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com> <40F862C2.3010801@matchmail.com> <1090075064.2902.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1090102257.9455.133.camel@neptune> On Sat, 2004-07-17 at 10:37, Owen Taylor wrote: > On Fri, 2004-07-16 at 19:20, Mike Fedyk wrote: > > Brent Fox wrote: > > > > >I propose that we remove the "Start Here" icon from the default desktop > > >for the following reasons: > > > > > >- It presents the same choices that the Main Menu does, just in a > > >different way. This is potentially confusing and inconsistent. The > > >Menu is a much faster way to launch apps anyway. > > > > > > > > But it's nice to have one window with all of the "panels" available for > > double clicking on. It's a pain to have to go through the menu to get > > to each pref panel especially on low resolution. > > Just to give some historical background, when we introduced Start Here > in Red Hat 8 or so, our goal, or at least, my goal, was to deemphasize > and hopefully eventually get rid of the big panel menu. > > For apps there are basically three things the user might want to do: > > - Start an app they are > already familiar with. Finding an item two levels > deep in a big menu is an awful way to do this. You want to encourage, > even force the user to make a favorites menu entry for it. > > - Start an app that they don't know about yet to accomplish a > particular task. The panel menu is an awful way of searching for > an app to do a particular task. > > - Browse through the apps on the system seeing what cool things > they can do. The panel menu is an awful way of browsing apps on > the system. > > I'd much rather see a menu used only as a short list of favorite > applications and common actions like "logout" and have a real app > browser for everything else. > > But I've never been very successful at pushing this point of view... > > Regards, > Owen While I agree that "Start Here" is a rather lame label, I would rather have seen the label changed to something more intuitive...although I seem to remember reading that removal is already a done deal. Rather than giving a long exposition on "the way the desktop ought to be according to Karen" since I doubt anyone cares, I am just going to ask a few questions and see if it engenders any discussion. Why does it seem that developers/people in charge are so eager to remove things from the desktop? Should the desktop not be the users primary way of accessing the system? Why shouldn't the desktop present icons so a simple point and click will bring up 90% of all the things a user typically does in a day's work? Does anyone agree that perhaps the reason for the lack of acceptance of the Linux desktop is what I see as a bias on the part of "those in charge" away from using truly graphical methods and a reliance on the keyboard to do the heavy lifting? Isn't a point and click on a desktop icon even more efficient than launching from a menu? Shouldn't the desktop be easily configurable as the ultimate "Favorites Menu"? While I realize that most all of the tools are in place already so that one can cover her desktop in just the way suggested above, I wonder why the default Fedora desktop is so barren and under-utilized. Surely it can be used for more important purposes than displaying some pretty wallpaper. KAS From hp at redhat.com Sat Jul 17 23:52:03 2004 From: hp at redhat.com (Havoc Pennington) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 19:52:03 -0400 Subject: proposal to remove the "Start Here" icon In-Reply-To: <1090102257.9455.133.camel@neptune> References: <1089747121.16514.7.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com> <40F862C2.3010801@matchmail.com> <1090075064.2902.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1090102257.9455.133.camel@neptune> Message-ID: <1090108323.17226.102.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2004-07-17 at 18:10, K. Spearel wrote: > > Why does it seem that developers/people in charge are so eager to remove > things from the desktop? The problem with the desktop is that it's covered up most of the time, and when not covered up is packed with zillions of documents and other clutter. The panel is a lot better for controls. > Does anyone agree that perhaps the > reason for the lack of acceptance of the Linux desktop is what I see as > a bias on the part of "those in charge" away from using truly graphical > methods and a reliance on the keyboard to do the heavy lifting? I don't really agree, since you could summarize almost all the work we do here as eliminating various reasons you currently have to use the command line. > Shouldn't the desktop be easily configurable as the > ultimate "Favorites Menu"? It is, btw - try dragging any applications menu item or panel launcher icon to the desktop. Havoc From jspaleta at gmail.com Sun Jul 18 00:52:15 2004 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:52:15 -0400 Subject: proposal to remove the "Start Here" icon In-Reply-To: <1090075064.2902.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1089747121.16514.7.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com> <40F862C2.3010801@matchmail.com> <1090075064.2902.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <604aa791040717175243b6552c@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 10:37:45 -0400, Owen Taylor wrote: > I'd much rather see a menu used only as a short list of favorite > applications and common actions like "logout" and have a real app > browser for everything else. I think this is a good idea. A "browser" view for all installed applications backup by some logic or editing ability so the main menu could be used as a favorites or a most recent/frequeny hotlist for the user. A "Browse All Applications"/"Find an Application" action in the main menu that opened up an application browser, would complement a short menu of frequently used applications, instead of one big menu for everything installed. But certaintly implementing this as a main menu action button instead of the desktop icon, would be better if the intention is to have an application browser thats meant to be used regularly and not just on first contact with the gnome desktop, because it would be very difficult to get to the icon under all those spatial nautilus windows people regularly have open. As an crude example of how this could work, and something I already do. Start using the commandline panel applet instead of the main menu to launch programs. The history list on the applet acts as a recent applications menu. Sadly the browser button on the applet just lets you search the filesytem for executables and has no knowledge of the application .desktop entries, so you'll have to use your imagination as to how wonderful it would be if the browser button on the applet let you browse applictions instead of the filesystem. -jef From dave at webaugur.com Sun Jul 18 06:01:16 2004 From: dave at webaugur.com (David L Norris) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 01:01:16 -0500 Subject: proposal to remove the "Start Here" icon In-Reply-To: <1090075064.2902.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1089747121.16514.7.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com> <40F862C2.3010801@matchmail.com> <1090075064.2902.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1090130476.12125.160.camel@Daneel.WebAugur.com> On Sat, 2004-07-17 at 10:37 -0400, Owen Taylor wrote: > I'd much rather see a menu used only as a short list of favorite > applications and common actions like "logout" and have a real app > browser for everything else. Well, this is straying from "start here" a bit. But here are some ideas: 1. Do away with start-here: (done?) 2. Place launchers for applications: and favorites: in computer: 3. Create a favorites menu applet similar to the menubar. 4. Fix the bugs in the favorites: handler such as the broken trash can. 5. If feasible, replace the "main menu" with an applet that can embed into a panel. 6. Record all application launches in the run dialog MRU. (Everyone realizes they can drag launchers from the run dialog, right?) 7. Create a MRU menu applet which generates itself from the run dialog MRU. This applet would look like the new main menu applet. 8. Fedora's default "main menu" could then be a drawer with the main menu and mru applets embedded. 9. For extra credit, modify drawers to support "text beside icon" (and fix them so they don't run off the edges of the screen), implement the favorites menu like the proposed mru and main menu applets, and this would replace both the menubar and main menu with a normal drawer that embeds favorites menu, main menu, and mru menu. I went into some (rambling) detail and made a couple of mockups: http://webaugur.com/dave/blogger/2004/07/gnome-menus-and-start-here.html -- David Norris http://www.webaugur.com/dave/ ICQ - 412039 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From beartooth at adelphia.net Sun Jul 18 19:36:29 2004 From: beartooth at adelphia.net (Beartooth) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 15:36:29 -0400 Subject: proposal to remove the "Start Here" icon References: <1089747121.16514.7.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com> <40F862C2.3010801@matchmail.com> <1090075064.2902.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1090102257.9455.133.camel@neptune> <1090108323.17226.102.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 19:52:03 -0400, Havoc Pennington wrote: >> Shouldn't the desktop be easily configurable as the >> ultimate "Favorites Menu"? > > It is, btw - try dragging any applications menu item or panel launcher > icon to the desktop. Very good to know -- when it works. I didn't. Many thanks! But ... I tried it with Pan (0.14.2 under FC1); it three-quarter-worked: put a launcher on the desktop, and also let me put the launcher where I wanted it. But now it's there on all six workspaces, of which exactly one is reserved for Pan and only Pan. I'll take it away again, most likely. So I tried again, with Opera (7.52) -- and it under-half-worked: put a launcher in the worst place for me (way in the upper left corner, which I *always* have covered up, on all six workspaces), and wouldn't let me move it at all. It also put a great big new one on the panel, in addition to the one in the drawer where it belongs. (It didn't do that with Pan.) So I removed it from desktop and panel without ever even invoking it. I'm sure linux would let me put a launcher on one and only one particular workspace, if I knew how; but I don't. Maybe making a GUI to do that, or an option added into the present one, would help any others who work the way I do. The beauty of this would be its simplicity: when I click my usenet workspace, either the reader window would already fill it (if already open), or the launcher would be handy (but out of sight when the app is already open). Marginalium: I'd like to be able to make a given workspace launch other apps into a pre-designated other workspace. So, for instance, if I click on a URL in a usenet message, my chosen browser would open, not out over the top of my reader, but in the workspace adjacent to the reader. Dunno if that's related here ... -- Beartooth Autodidact, curmudgeonly codger learning linux Keep in mind that I know precious little of what I'm asking about! From mfedyk at matchmail.com Sun Jul 18 22:43:45 2004 From: mfedyk at matchmail.com (Mike Fedyk) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 15:43:45 -0700 Subject: proposal to remove the "Start Here" icon In-Reply-To: <1090102257.9455.133.camel@neptune> References: <1089747121.16514.7.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com> <40F862C2.3010801@matchmail.com> <1090075064.2902.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1090102257.9455.133.camel@neptune> Message-ID: <40FAFD21.2000104@matchmail.com> K. Spearel wrote: >Why does it seem that developers/people in charge are so eager to remove >things from the desktop? Should the desktop not be the users primary >way of accessing the system? Why shouldn't the desktop present icons so >a simple point and click will bring up 90% of all the things a user >typically does in a day's work? Does anyone agree that perhaps the >reason for the lack of acceptance of the Linux desktop is what I see as >a bias on the part of "those in charge" away from using truly graphical >methods and a reliance on the keyboard to do the heavy lifting? Isn't a >point and click on a desktop icon even more efficient than launching >from a menu? Shouldn't the desktop be easily configurable as the >ultimate "Favorites Menu"? > It seems to me that more icons on the desktop, and a drawer of desktop contents (for those that don't see their desktop often) would be a great default setup... From tweeksjunk2 at theweeks.org Mon Jul 19 03:57:41 2004 From: tweeksjunk2 at theweeks.org (Tom Weeks) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 22:57:41 -0500 Subject: Screensavers in FC3 In-Reply-To: <40F3F749.8060309@silverorange.com> References: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> <1089730652.4762.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> <40F3F749.8060309@silverorange.com> Message-ID: <200407182257.41854.tweeksjunk2@theweeks.org> On Tuesday 13 July 2004 09:52 am, Steven Garrity wrote: > I agree that a few simple/quality screensavers would be fine to include > by default, but if the debate over which should stay will at all delay > the removal of all the cruft, I'd say we go to blank-only. Why not do a default screen savor that provides information such as clickable links to the Fedora Core mail lists, on line RH-EL3 manuals or Fedora Docs, useful info for newbies and geeks alike. Tweeks From tweeksjunk2 at theweeks.org Mon Jul 19 04:18:20 2004 From: tweeksjunk2 at theweeks.org (Tom Weeks) Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 23:18:20 -0500 Subject: Custom Desktop In-Reply-To: <071520041741.4114.40F6C1D2000B13AB00001012220074567202029799979D010C@comcast.net> References: <071520041741.4114.40F6C1D2000B13AB00001012220074567202029799979D010C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <200407182318.20536.tweeksjunk2@theweeks.org> On Thursday 15 July 2004 12:41 pm, corywynn at comcast.net wrote: > Forgive me if I am missing something but I am attempting to setup a small > business with FC1 and my buddy who is willing to try it out only wants his > clients to access certain apps from the desktop and little to no chance of > file/desktop alteration. Can someone help me and/or direct me to how I > might say only have default /home/anyuser environments that gives them only > logout options, internet, and messenger? I am just curious. I can't find > it anywhere. Thx for any help. Put a default ".xsession" file in the /etc/skeleton directory (and chmod 750 it) that contains the list of apps that you want to run. For example, in your case, you could just put one app: mozilla -width 800 -height 600 file:///home/$USER/close.html And also put in /etc/skeleton/ a file called close.html... Then each user will ONLY get a browser, and that's it. In the "close.html", put something like:
To log out, hit CTRL-ALT-BACKSPACE And that should do nicely.. For more info on using the .xsession control method, see here: http://www.jics.utk.edu/I2UNIX/xsession.html I go over this in my the book: Good luck.. Tweeks From nphilipp at redhat.com Mon Jul 19 06:45:49 2004 From: nphilipp at redhat.com (Nils Philippsen) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 08:45:49 +0200 Subject: Screensavers in FC3 In-Reply-To: <200407182257.41854.tweeksjunk2@theweeks.org> References: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> <1089730652.4762.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> <40F3F749.8060309@silverorange.com> <200407182257.41854.tweeksjunk2@theweeks.org> Message-ID: <1090219549.3140.22.camel@wombat.tiptoe.de> On Mon, 2004-07-19 at 05:57, Tom Weeks wrote: > On Tuesday 13 July 2004 09:52 am, Steven Garrity wrote: > > > I agree that a few simple/quality screensavers would be fine to include > > by default, but if the debate over which should stay will at all delay > > the removal of all the cruft, I'd say we go to blank-only. > > Why not do a default screen savor that provides information such as clickable > links to the Fedora Core mail lists, on line RH-EL3 manuals or Fedora Docs, > useful info for newbies and geeks alike. That kind of subverts the idea of a screensaver that kicks in automatically after a period of inactivity and vanished as soon as the user does something, e.g. move the mouse ;-). I thunk the info you mention would be more suited to be put into the default home page (file:///usr/share/doc/HTML/index.html). Feel free to put an RFE into bugzilla. Nils -- Nils Philippsen / Red Hat / nphilipp at redhat.com "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- B. Franklin, 1759 PGP fingerprint: C4A8 9474 5C4C ADE3 2B8F 656D 47D8 9B65 6951 3011 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From bfox at redhat.com Mon Jul 19 15:04:08 2004 From: bfox at redhat.com (Brent Fox) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 11:04:08 -0400 Subject: proposal to remove the "Start Here" icon In-Reply-To: <40F862C2.3010801@matchmail.com> References: <1089747121.16514.7.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com> <40F862C2.3010801@matchmail.com> Message-ID: <1090249448.10067.70.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com> On Fri, 2004-07-16 at 19:20, Mike Fedyk wrote: > Brent Fox wrote: > > >I propose that we remove the "Start Here" icon from the default desktop > >for the following reasons: > > > >- It presents the same choices that the Main Menu does, just in a > >different way. This is potentially confusing and inconsistent. The > >Menu is a much faster way to launch apps anyway. > > > > > But it's nice to have one window with all of the "panels" available for > double clicking on. It's a pain to have to go through the menu to get > to each pref panel especially on low resolution. I agree that the Main Menu is not a very good way of browsing all the configuration options. I'll try to explain more below. > > >- The name "Start Here" implies that there it will take you to a set of > >steps to set up your desktop, but it doesn't do that. > > > > > But it does. It gives you the preferences and system settings in a > window, which some people prefer to the menus. Nope. System settings is the wrong place to "Start". If changing the preferences is the first thing a user needs to do, then we've picked the wrong defaults. If the name was "Control Panel" or something like that, fine. > > >- It's basically useless. :) > > > > > Allowing another way to get the same window should still be there though. Why must there be two different ways of viewing configuration options? I think we should either present the configuration options in the Menu or in a Control Panel, but not both. To be honest, I think either choice would be ok but having both is inconsistent. How about this: - Remove "Start Here" icon from the desktop. Instead, call it "Control Panel" and put it in the Main Menu just below "Browse Filesystems". Make it browse just "Preferences" and "System Settings" - not "Applications". - Remove the "Preferences" and "System Settings" menus from the Main Menu. This would remove some serious clutter in the Menu. Just some thoughts, Brent > >I think a case could be made for a first-run desktop tutorial kind of > >thing, but "Start Here" as it currently exists is not it. I propose > >that we remove this icon for FC3test2 and see if anybody complains. > > > > > Maybe "start here" should be renamed to "Control Panel" or something. > > While it isn't a step through introduction to the system, it does > provide an alternate view in the "spacial" way. > > You're not taking away the "start-here:///" target in nautilus are you? > > Mike > From mike at navi.cx Mon Jul 19 16:38:11 2004 From: mike at navi.cx (Mike Hearn) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 17:38:11 +0100 Subject: Screensavers in FC3 References: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> <1089730652.4762.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> <40F3F749.8060309@silverorange.com> <200407182257.41854.tweeksjunk2@theweeks.org> <1090219549.3140.22.camel@wombat.tiptoe.de> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 08:45:49 +0200, Nils Philippsen wrote: > That kind of subverts the idea of a screensaver that kicks in > automatically after a period of inactivity and vanished as soon as the > user does something, e.g. move the mouse ;-). However, a screensaver that gave random tips, fortune cookies, helpful advice, alerted you if there were pending security updates etc *would* be very cool :) From mandreiana at rdslink.ro Mon Jul 19 16:42:56 2004 From: mandreiana at rdslink.ro (Marius Andreiana) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 19:42:56 +0300 Subject: proposal to remove the "Start Here" icon In-Reply-To: <1090249448.10067.70.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com> References: <1089747121.16514.7.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com> <40F862C2.3010801@matchmail.com> <1090249448.10067.70.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1090255376.6657.1.camel@marte.biciclete.ro> On Mon, 2004-07-19 at 11:04 -0400, Brent Fox wrote: > How about this: > > - Remove "Start Here" icon from the desktop. Instead, call it "Control > Panel" and put it in the Main Menu just below "Browse Filesystems". > Make it browse just "Preferences" and "System Settings" - not > "Applications". > > - Remove the "Preferences" and "System Settings" menus from the Main > Menu. This would remove some serious clutter in the Menu. great! This will also make loading of the menu faster, so I don't have to wait 2 seconds after click until it appears (celeron 1.7ghz, 256mb ram). -- Marius Andreiana Galuna - Solutii Linux in Romania http://www.galuna.ro From jspaleta at gmail.com Mon Jul 19 17:31:03 2004 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:31:03 -0400 Subject: Screensavers in FC3 In-Reply-To: References: <40F3D3A2.6040404@silverorange.com> <1089730652.4762.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> <40F3F749.8060309@silverorange.com> <200407182257.41854.tweeksjunk2@theweeks.org> <1090219549.3140.22.camel@wombat.tiptoe.de> Message-ID: <604aa791040719103171be91fb@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 17:38:11 +0100, Mike Hearn wrote: > However, a screensaver that gave random tips, fortune cookies, helpful > advice, alerted you if there were pending security updates etc *would* be > very cool :) Not as a default. I cringe at the thought of computers that by default broadcast a message like "Hey moron! You need to totally update me with security updates" while sitting.. idling...with the operator away from the display..just waiting for someone to walk by and to note that the computer the display is attached to is in a vulnerable state. Information leakage isn't really a good idea. I don't even want to see the Operating system version being display if at all possible, certainly not uptime or kernel version or whether the machine is security patched in a screensaver. -jef From hp at redhat.com Mon Jul 19 17:36:32 2004 From: hp at redhat.com (Havoc Pennington) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:36:32 -0400 Subject: AD connection Message-ID: <1090258592.5632.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> How much of this can we get going out of the box, or make easy? http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1624773,00.asp Havoc From jdennis at redhat.com Mon Jul 19 17:51:33 2004 From: jdennis at redhat.com (John Dennis) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:51:33 -0400 Subject: AD connection In-Reply-To: <1090258592.5632.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1090258592.5632.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1090259493.14836.16.camel@finch.boston.redhat.com> I believe Nalin has augmented some of this in the fc3 tree, not 100% sure, I've just cc'ed him. I suspect most of it can be made to work out of the box, I think a bugzilla should be opened on this. Dan Reed recently experimented with winbind, I wonder if his experiences were the same. Dan emailed a report, but I didn't save a copy. Dan what say you? On Mon, 2004-07-19 at 13:36, Havoc Pennington wrote: > How much of this can we get going out of the box, or make easy? > > http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1624773,00.asp > > Havoc -- John Dennis From nandox7 at myrealbox.com Mon Jul 19 18:05:04 2004 From: nandox7 at myrealbox.com (Nando) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 19:05:04 +0100 Subject: AD connection In-Reply-To: <1090259493.14836.16.camel@finch.boston.redhat.com> References: <1090258592.5632.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1090259493.14836.16.camel@finch.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <40FC0D50.8090009@myrealbox.com> Well, regarding being possible from out off the box, i've done that with FC1. Only editing some files, i was able to register the linux box in the domain, obtaining users lists, and so on... all the usual stuff needed. Even after the updates, that where released to FC1 including the ones for kerberos rpm's. It keep working perfectly. Nando John Dennis wrote: >I believe Nalin has augmented some of this in the fc3 tree, not 100% >sure, I've just cc'ed him. > >I suspect most of it can be made to work out of the box, I think a >bugzilla should be opened on this. > >Dan Reed recently experimented with winbind, I wonder if his experiences >were the same. Dan emailed a report, but I didn't save a copy. Dan what >say you? > > >On Mon, 2004-07-19 at 13:36, Havoc Pennington wrote: > > >>How much of this can we get going out of the box, or make easy? >> >>http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1624773,00.asp >> >>Havoc >> >> From nalin at redhat.com Mon Jul 19 18:21:17 2004 From: nalin at redhat.com (Nalin Dahyabhai) Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 14:21:17 -0400 Subject: AD connection In-Reply-To: <1090259493.14836.16.camel@finch.boston.redhat.com> References: <1090258592.5632.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1090259493.14836.16.camel@finch.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20040719182115.GD2743@redhat.com> On Mon, Jul 19, 2004 at 01:51:33PM -0400, John Dennis wrote: > On Mon, 2004-07-19 at 13:36, Havoc Pennington wrote: > > How much of this can we get going out of the box, or make easy? > > > > http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1624773,00.asp > > > > Havoc > > I believe Nalin has augmented some of this in the fc3 tree, not 100% > sure, I've just cc'ed him. > > I suspect most of it can be made to work out of the box, I think a > bugzilla should be opened on this. > > Dan Reed recently experimented with winbind, I wonder if his experiences > were the same. Dan emailed a report, but I didn't save a copy. Dan what > say you? Like the article noted, most of this should work already. It really boils down to configuring Samba (and possibly Kerberos) correctly, joining the domain, and setting your nsswitch.conf and PAM configuration files to use winbind. I think the problems the eWeek folks ran into were caused by authconfig attempting to make the Samba and Kerberos configuration mirror each other in a way which turned out to just be confusing to people who weren't expecting it, so that's going away. Not sure those changes hit Test 1, though. There's more configuration required if you want to have Kerberos credentials available *after* you log in, and that hasn't been done yet. I'll spare you the details. Nalin From xsos1982 at yahoo.com.sg Tue Jul 20 05:26:29 2004 From: xsos1982 at yahoo.com.sg (Rubi Sutanto) Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:26:29 +0700 Subject: Participake in making wallpaper Message-ID: <1090301189.3338.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hi Guys, Could I participate in making fedora core 3 wallpaper :) I had created 1 wallpaper with title Blue Silk and 1 splash screen with the same title.. Here the link -> I had upload it into gnome-look.org, kde-look.org and fedoraforum.org Wallpaper http://gnome-look.org/content/download.php?content=14561&id=1 Splash screen http://gnome-look.org/content/download.php?content=14563&id=1 thanks From jose.moreno at gmail.com Wed Jul 21 18:34:45 2004 From: jose.moreno at gmail.com (Jose Moreno) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:34:45 -0400 Subject: Fedora Core2 Freezes on Dell Lattitude LS400 Message-ID: <5c88c0fe040721113439fd73c5@mail.gmail.com> I loaded Fedora Core2 from the ftp.redhat.com site on my dell latitude. it loads up until the Login screen, then once i enter my username and password, it freezes midway through. I tried KDE and GNOME and they both freeze any ideas why? i'm eager to get started with Linux. Display is a NeoMagice MagicGraph256AV Pentium 3 it works fine on Windows XP. i hate xp though :-0 From dcbw at redhat.com Wed Jul 21 18:39:12 2004 From: dcbw at redhat.com (Dan Williams) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:39:12 -0400 Subject: Fedora Core2 Freezes on Dell Lattitude LS400 In-Reply-To: <5c88c0fe040721113439fd73c5@mail.gmail.com> References: <5c88c0fe040721113439fd73c5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1090435152.3366.4.camel@dcbw.boston.redhat.com> Hi, There was a problem with the NeoMagic MagicMedia 256 sound driver in kernels 2.6.6-1.440 and earlier, see: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=121601 This is fixed both upstream in the Linus kernel, and in Red Hat Fedora kernels as well. If you get a newer kernel (I know that 2.6.7-1.488 works for example) your laptop will not freeze, but your sound might also not work. I have not been able to get actual sound out of the laptop, but at least it doesn't freeze. Dan On Wed, 2004-07-21 at 14:34 -0400, Jose Moreno wrote: > I loaded Fedora Core2 from the ftp.redhat.com site on my dell > latitude. > it loads up until the Login screen, then once i enter my username and > password, it freezes midway through. I tried KDE and GNOME and they > both freeze > > any ideas why? i'm eager to get started with Linux. > > Display is a NeoMagice MagicGraph256AV > Pentium 3 > > it works fine on Windows XP. i hate xp though :-0 > > From nandox7 at myrealbox.com Wed Jul 21 19:58:03 2004 From: nandox7 at myrealbox.com (Fernando Morais) Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 20:58:03 +0100 Subject: Icons for media devices. References: <5c88c0fe040721113439fd73c5@mail.gmail.com> <1090435152.3366.4.camel@dcbw.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <002b01c46f5d$0b2f08d0$0901a8c0@frozzen.com> Hi, does anyone made or have, some fedorishh :) look icons, for a usb disk, or pen drive. Whathever you want to call it... If you could share them with me, i would appreciate. Thank you, Nando From jose.moreno at gmail.com Thu Jul 22 16:52:58 2004 From: jose.moreno at gmail.com (Jose Moreno) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 12:52:58 -0400 Subject: installing latest kernel from CD-ROM Message-ID: <5c88c0fe04072209523d3fb2b5@mail.gmail.com> hello, i'm new to RED HAT i'm trying to update my kernel from a CD-ROM i burned the kernel using Windows XP mounted the cdrom and could see the file copied to /tmp attempted to run the package but get the error " could not open file" is there a way for me to update the kernel through this method? From tweeksjunk2 at theweeks.org Fri Jul 23 03:13:25 2004 From: tweeksjunk2 at theweeks.org (Tom Weeks) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 22:13:25 -0500 Subject: X.org and Touchpads In-Reply-To: <1090258592.5632.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1090258592.5632.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200407222213.25673.tweeksjunk2@theweeks.org> Is there a fix for x.org and laptop touchpads? Tweeks From stevenn at vib.tv Fri Jul 23 03:15:31 2004 From: stevenn at vib.tv (Steven Noonan) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 20:15:31 -0700 Subject: X.org and Touchpads In-Reply-To: <200407222213.25673.tweeksjunk2@theweeks.org> References: <1090258592.5632.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200407222213.25673.tweeksjunk2@theweeks.org> Message-ID: <410082D3.8090401@vib.tv> You'll have to be more specific. It works with both my laptops' touchpads. What brand is your touchpad? What does your xorg.conf say? Steven Noonan Tom Weeks wrote: >Is there a fix for x.org and laptop touchpads? > >Tweeks > > > > From jose.moreno at gmail.com Fri Jul 23 20:32:31 2004 From: jose.moreno at gmail.com (Jose Moreno) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 16:32:31 -0400 Subject: How do i install the Fast Etherlink XL Card Bus (Gmail incentive) i have three invites left Message-ID: <5c88c0fe040723133210ba7bcf@mail.gmail.com> Hello, How can i get my Fast Etherlink cardbus PC Card to work on my Fedora install. 3c575-TX, 32BIT, 10/100 Base-TX Jose From 777tahder at schlaegel.com Sat Jul 24 05:55:10 2004 From: 777tahder at schlaegel.com (Aaron Schlaegel) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 22:55:10 -0700 Subject: Bluecurve icons derivative works Message-ID: <4101F9BE.6090601@schlaegel.com> I would like to distribute an application icon that will fit with the style of the Bluecurve theme. To do this I have taken some of the icons from redhat-artwork to use as bases. This makes my icon a derivate work of the redhat-artwork icons. Is distributing my derivative work allowed? From hp at redhat.com Sat Jul 24 13:46:58 2004 From: hp at redhat.com (Havoc Pennington) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 09:46:58 -0400 Subject: Bluecurve icons derivative works In-Reply-To: <4101F9BE.6090601@schlaegel.com> References: <4101F9BE.6090601@schlaegel.com> Message-ID: <1090676818.26245.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2004-07-24 at 01:55, Aaron Schlaegel wrote: > I would like to distribute an application icon that will fit with the > style of the Bluecurve theme. > To do this I have taken some of the icons from redhat-artwork to use as > bases. > This makes my icon a derivate work of the redhat-artwork icons. > > Is distributing my derivative work allowed? > Yes, the icons are GPL. Havoc From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Sat Jul 24 14:21:00 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 10:21:00 -0400 Subject: Bluecurve icons derivative works In-Reply-To: <1090676818.26245.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4101F9BE.6090601@schlaegel.com> <1090676818.26245.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1090678860.7496.5.camel@binkley> > Yes, the icons are GPL. > But you can't refer to them as derived from Bluecurve, can you? Isn't that name trademarked? -sv From mattdm at mattdm.org Sat Jul 24 14:29:01 2004 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 10:29:01 -0400 Subject: Bluecurve icons derivative works In-Reply-To: <1090678860.7496.5.camel@binkley> References: <4101F9BE.6090601@schlaegel.com> <1090676818.26245.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1090678860.7496.5.camel@binkley> Message-ID: <20040724142901.GA22516@jadzia.bu.edu> On Sat, Jul 24, 2004 at 10:21:00AM -0400, seth vidal wrote: > > Yes, the icons are GPL. > But you can't refer to them as derived from Bluecurve, can you? Isn't > that name trademarked? That doesn't mean (Red Hat's trademark policy notwithstanding) you can't use that term descriptively. The icons _are_ derived from Bluecurve, and there's no reasonable way to say that without using the trademark. PS: I'm certainly not a lawyer. But I can use google. :) So you don't have to take my word for it: -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> From hp at redhat.com Sun Jul 25 02:46:39 2004 From: hp at redhat.com (Havoc Pennington) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 22:46:39 -0400 Subject: Bluecurve icons derivative works In-Reply-To: <1090678860.7496.5.camel@binkley> References: <4101F9BE.6090601@schlaegel.com> <1090676818.26245.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1090678860.7496.5.camel@binkley> Message-ID: <1090723599.11782.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2004-07-24 at 10:21, seth vidal wrote: > > Yes, the icons are GPL. > > > > But you can't refer to them as derived from Bluecurve, can you? Isn't > that name trademarked? You can't use the Bluecurve trademark in not-allowed ways, the simplest guideline is probably to not say "Bluecurve" at all, but the real legal rules are more complicated than that I guess. Havoc From tweeksjunk2 at theweeks.org Mon Jul 26 02:24:30 2004 From: tweeksjunk2 at theweeks.org (Tom Weeks) Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 21:24:30 -0500 Subject: How do i install the Fast Etherlink XL Card Bus (Gmail incentive) i have three invites left In-Reply-To: <5c88c0fe040723133210ba7bcf@mail.gmail.com> References: <5c88c0fe040723133210ba7bcf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200407252124.30866.tweeksjunk2@theweeks.org> On Friday 23 July 2004 03:32 pm, Jose Moreno wrote: > Hello, > > How can i get my Fast Etherlink cardbus PC Card to work on my Fedora > install. 3c575-TX, 32BIT, 10/100 Base-TX A bit more description of it's behavior would be useful... To give us more info.. as root, type "tail -f /var/log/messages" Then plug your card in... and send the output to us. Quick and dirty that helps a lot of newer laptop owners (at least on FC1 on 2.4 kernel) is to.. from the GRUB boot menu... hit "A" to append the boot kernel option: acpi=on Then do the same "tail -f ..." trick and see if it's different. Tweeks p.s. this (and more) is all covered in our new book: "Linux Troubleshooting Bible" http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/076456997X/ From sopwith at redhat.com Tue Jul 27 17:39:17 2004 From: sopwith at redhat.com (Elliot Lee) Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 13:39:17 -0400 Subject: Fedora Project Mailing Lists reminder Message-ID: This is a reminder of the mailing lists for the Fedora Project, and the purpose of each list. You can view this information at http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/communicate/ When you're using these mailing lists, please take the time to choose the one that is most appropriate to your post. If you don't know the right mailing list to use for a question or discussion, please contact me. This will help you get the best possible answer for your question, and keep other list subscribers happy! Mailing Lists Mailing lists are email addresses which send email to all users subscribed to the mailing list. Sending an email to a mailing list reaches all users interested in discussing a specific topic and users available to help other users with the topic. The following mailing lists are available. To subscribe, send email to -request at redhat.com (replace with the desired mailing list name such as fedora-list) with the word subscribe in the subject. fedora-announce-list - Announcements of changes and events. To stay aware of news, subscribe to this list. fedora-list - For users of releases. If you want help with a problem installing or using , this is the list for you. fedora-test-list - For testers of test releases. If you would like to discuss experiences using TEST releases, this is the list for you. fedora-devel-list - For developers, developers, developers. If you are interested in helping create releases, this is the list for you. fedora-docs-list - For participants of the docs project fedora-desktop-list - For discussions about desktop issues such as user interfaces, artwork, and usability fedora-config-list - For discussions about the development of configuration tools fedora-legacy-announce - For announcements about the Fedora Legacy Project fedora-legacy-list - For discussions about the Fedora Legacy Project fedora-selinux-list - For discussions about the Fedora SELinux Project fedora-de-list - For discussions about Fedora in the German language fedora-es-list - For discussions about Fedora in the Spanish language fedora-ja-list - For discussions about Fedora in the Japanese language fedora-i18n-list - For discussions about the internationalization of Fedora Core fedora-trans-list - For discussions about translating the software and documentation associated with the Fedora Project German: fedora-trans-de French: fedora-trans-fr Spanish: fedora-trans-es Italian: fedora-trans-it Brazilian Portuguese: fedora-trans-pt_br Japanese: fedora-trans-ja Korean: fedora-trans-ko Simplified Chinese: fedora-trans-zh_cn Traditional Chinese: fedora-trans-zh_tw From hp at redhat.com Thu Jul 29 19:15:14 2004 From: hp at redhat.com (Havoc Pennington) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:15:14 -0400 Subject: test plans Message-ID: <1091128514.3528.43.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hi, I'd like to see some more detailed test plans for the Fedora desktop. These need not be complicated or long, just a set of basic things we want to try out in each of the major apps and in the OS itself. Here are some notes I have on things we might include. I know that some of these tests would not pass at the moment, no need to point that out ;-) - basic run through a login session; log in, log out, launch some apps; does anything embarassing happen - install previous version of the OS; log in to a user account, play with some things, change settings; tar up and save the user home directory; install current version of the OS, and unpack same user home directory; repeat the above basic run through a login session - develop list of major apps that must be tested, check basic functionality of each. e.g. browser, office, mail, IM, etc. - input methods work in these apps - printing works properly in all 10 languages from these major apps - Windows printers are detected and shown automatically in print dialog - CUPS printers are detected and shown automatically in print dialog - in Nautilus, verify that Windows file shares appear automatically and the files there can be opened on double click, specifically check MS Office files - verify that plugging in several representative USB storage devices results in them appearing on the desktop and working - verify that if a local USB printer is plugged in, it is automatically configured and made available - verify that on plugging a network cable the link is automatically brought up and dhcp run - verify that wireless networking can be used without resorting to the command line at all - login to FC1/2, login to FC3 same homedir, run through major apps and check for confusion with shared NFS homedir - login on two different machines, same homedir, with same FC version, check for badness - login twice on same machine same user and check for badness - test lockdown of settings, ensure desktop behaves properly and user can't avoid the lockdown - test X on some list of video hardware; automated smoke test - accessibility, e.g. test screen reader and onscreen keyboard - correct fonts used in 10 languages for set of common font names - suite of Microsoft documents to be imported correctly (screenshots of correct appearance?) - suite of web pages to render correctly - cut-and-paste to/from a big matrix of sources/targets - out of disk space, behavior on login and when saving from the major apps - set date/time backward, see if desktop or login breaks - run any test suites we have for specific components - verify that all browser plugins work (including the proprietary ones available from third parties) - verify important MIME associations, e.g. .doc opens in OpenOffice.org, etc. - test use of an Active Directory account for Linux login As you can see from the list, the plans need to be more specific, and point to the files (tarred up homedirs, web pages, office documents, etc.) to be used. Havoc From jrb at redhat.com Thu Jul 29 19:52:36 2004 From: jrb at redhat.com (Jonathan Blandford) Date: 29 Jul 2004 15:52:36 -0400 Subject: test plans In-Reply-To: <1091128514.3528.43.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1091128514.3528.43.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: Havoc Pennington writes: > Hi, > > I'd like to see some more detailed test plans for the Fedora desktop. > These need not be complicated or long, just a set of basic things we > want to try out in each of the major apps and in the OS itself. > - accessibility, e.g. test screen reader and onscreen keyboard The accessibility project has helpfully put together a test plan at: http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gap/testing/a11y_sanity_suite.html -Jonathan From snickell at redhat.com Thu Jul 29 20:02:36 2004 From: snickell at redhat.com (Seth Nickell) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:02:36 -0400 Subject: Fedora Project Mailing Lists reminder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1091131356.2817.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> This sort of discussion is not appropriate for fedora-desktop-list. This list is devoted to discussion of the fedora desktop. It would be more appropriately made to fedora-announce. Please use that list in the future for this sort of traffic... oh wait... ;-) -Seth On Tue, 2004-07-27 at 13:39 -0400, Elliot Lee wrote: > This is a reminder of the mailing lists for the Fedora Project, and > the purpose of each list. You can view this information at > http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/communicate/ > > When you're using these mailing lists, please take the time to choose > the one that is most appropriate to your post. If you don't know the > right mailing list to use for a question or discussion, please contact > me. This will help you get the best possible answer for your question, > and keep other list subscribers happy! > > Mailing Lists > > Mailing lists are email addresses which send email to all users > subscribed to the mailing list. Sending an email to a mailing list > reaches all users interested in discussing a specific topic and users > available to help other users with the topic. > > The following mailing lists are available. To subscribe, send email to -request at redhat.com > (replace with the desired mailing list name such as > fedora-list) with the word subscribe in the subject. > > fedora-announce-list - Announcements of changes and events. To stay > aware of news, subscribe to this list. > fedora-list - For users of releases. If you want help with a problem > installing or using , this is the list for you. > fedora-test-list - For testers of test releases. If you would like to > discuss experiences using TEST releases, this is the list for you. > fedora-devel-list - For developers, developers, developers. If you are > interested in helping create releases, this is the list for you. > fedora-docs-list - For participants of the docs project > fedora-desktop-list - For discussions about desktop issues such as user > interfaces, artwork, and usability > fedora-config-list - For discussions about the development of > configuration tools > fedora-legacy-announce - For announcements about the Fedora Legacy > Project > fedora-legacy-list - For discussions about the Fedora Legacy Project > fedora-selinux-list - For discussions about the Fedora SELinux Project > fedora-de-list - For discussions about Fedora in the German language > fedora-es-list - For discussions about Fedora in the Spanish language > fedora-ja-list - For discussions about Fedora in the Japanese language > fedora-i18n-list - For discussions about the internationalization of > Fedora Core > fedora-trans-list - For discussions about translating the software and > documentation associated with the Fedora Project > German: fedora-trans-de > French: fedora-trans-fr > Spanish: fedora-trans-es > Italian: fedora-trans-it > Brazilian Portuguese: fedora-trans-pt_br > Japanese: fedora-trans-ja > Korean: fedora-trans-ko > Simplified Chinese: fedora-trans-zh_cn > Traditional Chinese: fedora-trans-zh_tw > > From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Jul 29 20:06:55 2004 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:06:55 -0400 Subject: test plans In-Reply-To: <1091128514.3528.43.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1091128514.3528.43.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <604aa791040729130647438ef5@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:15:14 -0400, Havoc Pennington wrote: > Hi, > > I'd like to see some more detailed test plans for the Fedora desktop. > These need not be complicated or long, just a set of basic things we > want to try out in each of the major apps and in the OS itself. Is this aimed at other developers, or is this list aimed for testers to run? I'd very much like to see a set of tasks laid out for community testers to work through in an organized way... homework assignments for lack of a better phrase. I've been waiting on the prophetic CMS system for fedora's website instead going off on my own and starting a crappy attempt to write a testing guide. But if this a serious attempt to codify a set of specific tasks for people to test and report back failures on, I'm more than willing to help generate things like office documents if I still don't have access to contributing webpage text for the guide. -jef From caillon at redhat.com Thu Jul 29 20:35:01 2004 From: caillon at redhat.com (Christopher Aillon) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:35:01 -0400 Subject: test plans In-Reply-To: <1091128514.3528.43.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1091128514.3528.43.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <41095F75.6030103@redhat.com> Havoc Pennington wrote: > - develop list of major apps that must be tested, check basic > functionality of each. e.g. browser, office, mail, IM, etc. > - input methods work in these apps > - printing works properly in all 10 languages from these major apps > > ... > - verify that all browser plugins work (including > the proprietary ones available from third parties) > Mozilla's basic functionality test suite (smoketest) which includes plugins testing is at http://www.mozilla.org/quality/smoketests/index.html From hp at redhat.com Thu Jul 29 22:48:48 2004 From: hp at redhat.com (Havoc Pennington) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 18:48:48 -0400 Subject: test plans In-Reply-To: <604aa791040729130647438ef5@mail.gmail.com> References: <1091128514.3528.43.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa791040729130647438ef5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1091141328.4558.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2004-07-29 at 16:06, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > Is this aimed at other developers, or is this list aimed for testers to run? I'd like the developers to help define the tests, then I figure Red Hat QA guys will run as much of it as they can, and Red Hat developers and perhaps Fedora contributors (if there's interest) can pitch in and help run the rest of it. > I'd very much like to see a set of tasks laid out for community > testers to work through in an organized way... homework assignments > for lack of a better phrase. I've been waiting on the prophetic CMS > system for fedora's website instead going off on my own and starting a > crappy attempt to write a testing guide. But if this a serious > attempt to codify a set of specific tasks for people to test and > report back failures on, I'm more than willing to help generate things > like office documents if I still don't have access to contributing > webpage text for the guide. That sounds great. I wouldn't wait for us to have a wiki, you can always write content elsewhere, including fedora.us wiki, and then we can move stuff to the wiki when we have it. Or whatever. I don't know what the best approach is. Maybe we should put the files to be used in the tests in an RPM package - then the kickstart files for the test machines can just include that package ;-) The Mozilla smoke test caillon posted looks like exactly the right kind of thing that we should have covering all the major desktop bits. Havoc From jonathanbearak at yahoo.com Fri Jul 30 03:01:15 2004 From: jonathanbearak at yahoo.com (Jonathan Marc Bearak) Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 23:01:15 -0400 Subject: Comments Regarding Linux Desktop Usability for Teenagers Message-ID: <1091156471.4310.59.camel@localhost.localdomain> I believe that one of the most intriguing areas of desktop usability is for teenagers. That is, not teenagers such as myself, but rather ones who are not hackers and are not unusually knowledgeable about computers for someone of their age group. My sister, who is 15, has now been working with Fedora Core 2 for a few weeks. She is not particularly adept with computers. I often needed to help with simple tasks on Windows, such as setting up a printer. She is not someone who would typically be running Linux. I will say quickly regarding why she switched that she experienced platform reliability issues and recently faced a situation requiring a clean install. My main interest at this point, however, is in her continued use of Linux. She commented to me that she no longer misses Windows because she has found Fedora to be reliable. It is extremely important to understand that she is not referring to the Windows OS but the platform as a whole. The Linux desktop is actively working to create a clean and consistent environment. Applications on Windows are often inconsistent and unreliable. The desktop platform is what appeals to her -- not Linux itself. From a person without any understanding of open source or the GPL, the concept of the Linux kernel, or any interest in our politics, that is a user's perspective which should make desktop developers proud of the progress that has been made. I have had to help in several areas to maintain my sister's now-Linux computer. These have not been in areas of cross-platform compatibility, but of interaction with the system. As I recall, one of the first things I had to do was install giFToxic. I used Dag Wiers' yum repository. I found that files were missing in /usr/lib/giFT and so copied files from my computer's /usr/local/lib/giFT (compiled) to her notebook. I also copied my .giFT directory. This is not something that is likely to be dealt with in Fedora development, nor should it. I know that without peer-to-peer software and without the ability to download music, she would not continue using her computer. This is a predominant aspect of teenage computer use, and one that is difficult to overlook. I installed multimedia apps through yum. A standard procedure, and frankly, easier than Windows -- just a command and some patience. Password, enter, wait. I installed RealPlayer 10. I thought this would be necessary for streaming media now that she doesn't have Windows Media Player. She complained that launch.com doesn't work. I remembered something obscure -- launch only worked in Netscape 4. I couldn't remember why, but that was the case. I installed netscape-navigator from the Dag yum repository. This of course is already beyond what a normal user would even think vaguely about. I then opened Launchcast. The window opened, and I awaited the Flash applet to load. But I was told that it could not work; Launchcast requires Windows Media Player. I didn't immediately understand this -- I used to use Launch not so many years ago. RealPlayer had been an option in the past. This bring up another platform issue: multimedia. Linux desktop applications exist that are compatible with Office documents. But Linux multimedia has is limited by outside factors. Fortunately, giFToxic satisfied her needs; she could watch music videos on her computer. I would point out that WMA support is going to be necessary in applications like Rhythmbox, which she seems to use as her only audio player. Her downloaded songs are mp3's, and I had Ogg Vorbis copies of much of her music. CD's which she had already ripped were in mp3 format only because I set Windows Media Player to encode to mp3s almost immediately after she first bought her notebook. This is not the case for most individuals, and there is not much that can be done to stop people from making WMA recordings. Down the line, this will be a big factor in people trying Linux. (It is somewhat analogous to the concept of "addicting" college students to Napster subscriptions.) Another area was in setting up her printer. On Windows, this involved downloading and installing drivers for her (HP PhotoSmart P1100) printer. It took me a long time, and was way too complex. On Linux, I simply plugged in the printer, chose /dev/USB/lp0 in the Add Printer druid, chose the appropriate printer from the list, and was done. Still, she could not figure out how to set up her printer. Of course not -- /dev/USB/lp0 is meaningless. I looked in System Tools->Hardware Browser. The Linux desktop knows that's her printer (regardless of the apps involved in detecting that detail (kudzu is irrelevant to her)). The printer configuration application should match /dev/USB/lp0 to the name of the printer attached to the USB port. It's a matter of terminology; a small detail that totally removes a user's ability to administer the system despite the rest of the procedure being understandable. Further, the new desktop background interface is unusable without explanation. There are no choices given by default! I had to show her to /usr/share/backgrounds in Nautilus and demonstrate dragging images into the Desktop Background window to change them. A simple solution is having a something akin to Apple's "Desktop Pictures" / "Choose Folder" options in the Mac OS X Desktop Background settings application. Also related to Gnome configuration, I asked if she liked Bluecurve. She wasn't fond of it. She didn't hate it, but she didn't like it either. (Nothing to say regarding Bluecurve's quality; I use the default theme with the Bluecurve-Gnome color scheme.) I showed her that she simply had to go to Prefs->Theme. She was confused "where's the preview" but was happily surprised that the themes changed instantly so there was no need for a preview Window as in Windows' Display control panel. Unfortunately, I had to go in to Details and switch the icons back to Bluecurve. Icons should not change when changing themes; this is unintuitive -- normal users do not think of this as part of the theme. On Windows, you can change the widgets. On Mac OS X, you can change the widget colors (blue/graphite). (Perhaps themes should just stick to Bluecurve unless they have their own specially-crafted icon set.) The rest of her system is normal. Firefox (installed through yum; but irrelevant, Mozilla provided by the base would have functioned just as well), Gaim, and OpenOffice.org. Her install consists of Personal Desktop + Games + Samba + the afforementioned applications installed through yum/up2date. Her computer is typically running all the time; she does not appear to turn it off. The nightly yum update is enabled (she ignored Windows Update alerts, and she ignored the red exclamation point of rhn-applet-gui.) She uses AOL for email (webmail interface). (She has commented that people should complain to AOL that they should make it work on Linux (not write a GTK+ client, of course, but "make it work" on Linux; an interesting particular in the way non-hackers understand how software works.)) These have been my observations of my sister's use of Linux, and my experiences where intervention has been required. I have brought up some larger issues, and some smaller points which can probably be addressed without too much effort. I hope others find this to be helpful and relevant to working with the desktop environment on Linux and Fedora. -- Jonathan Marc Bearak From mike at navi.cx Fri Jul 30 13:16:29 2004 From: mike at navi.cx (Mike Hearn) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:16:29 +0100 Subject: test plans References: <1091128514.3528.43.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:15:14 -0400, Havoc Pennington wrote: > - Windows printers are detected and shown automatically in print > dialog > - in Nautilus, verify that Windows file shares appear automatically > and the files there can be opened on double click, specifically > check MS Office files Last time I checked these two were broken by the default firewall configuration. There is a bug filed on this, assigned to Bill Nottingham I think > - suite of Microsoft documents to be imported correctly > (screenshots of correct appearance?) I suspect OpenOffice has a test suite of these, why does it need to be duplicated in Fedora? > - cut-and-paste to/from a big matrix of sources/targets > - out of disk space, behavior on login and when saving > from the major apps - Session management works correctly in major apps? > - verify that all browser plugins work (including > the proprietary ones available from third parties) Heh, does that include CrossOver Plugin? :) thanks -mike From mike at navi.cx Fri Jul 30 13:49:28 2004 From: mike at navi.cx (Mike Hearn) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 14:49:28 +0100 Subject: Comments Regarding Linux Desktop Usability for Teenagers References: <1091156471.4310.59.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 23:01:15 -0400, Jonathan Marc Bearak wrote: > I have had to help in several areas to maintain my sister's now-Linux > computer. These have not been in areas of cross-platform compatibility, > but of interaction with the system. .... > I installed RealPlayer 10. I thought this would be necessary for > streaming media now that she doesn't have Windows Media Player. I then > opened Launchcast. The window opened, and I awaited the Flash applet to > load. But I was told that it could not work; Launchcast requires > Windows Media Player. I didn't immediately understand this -- I used to > use Launch not so many years ago. RealPlayer had been an option in the > past. Are you sure your problems are not to do with compatibility? ;) Websites that only work with Internet Explorer/Windows are a pretty common issue really. My brother is a musician, he visits lots of music related websites - and he's said that if it weren't for the current security problems IE has he would switch back to it from Firefox. Why? Because some websites don't work, and others don't work as well. In his words: "you never know what you're missing out on". Potential solutions for this problem from short-term to long-term on the Linux desktop are: * Install Internet Explorer then WMP in Linux, and let people know that if they find a website that doesn't work they can use IE - obviously making it clear that it's only to be used for backwards compat purposes. It's still possible to get hijacked and generally screwed over by worms even via emulation, if you're careless. * Bridge Gecko and ActiveX, so you only have to install WMP and Firefox can use WMP directly like IE does. There is work underway to enable ActiveX support in Gecko on Windows, enabling this for Linux as well would require some interesting backflips but could be done. The approach CrossOver uses is too hacky to make the majority of such apps work (they expect scripting integration and such). * Write a native plugin which matches the WMP plugin interfaces, and ship reverse engineered codecs in "dodgy" repositories. Obviously this might involve interface compatibility too. It also requires you to have a friendly geek on hand to know that you have to add extra repositories and install extra codecs to get equivalent functionality out of the box on Windows: not great. * Long term: evangelism for W3C standards, open multimedia codecs etc. I'm not especially optimistic here :( > almost immediately after she first bought her notebook. This is not the > case for most individuals, and there is not much that can be done to > stop people from making WMA recordings. Down the line, this will be a > big factor in people trying Linux. (It is somewhat analogous to the > concept of "addicting" college students to Napster subscriptions.) Solutions: - Install and use Windows Media Player. - Install the WMA codecs/Windows Media Player and have native players like RhythmBox/XMMS use it as their backend. Apps like mplayer/xine can do this today though the installation routine isn't exactly obvious. Yes yes requires Windows license, *yawn*, this is only a big deal for corporate users where the cost of licenses is something that they think about. For home users they (nearly by definition) already have a Windows license as it came with their computer. Licenses don't expire, as far as I know once you bought Windows XP you can install the software that came with it for ever. This is also a technique that works for DRMd music like M4P/WMA files bought online, unlike the current "just host the codecs" system which unfortunately requires breaking the encryption on the files so violating the DMCA/EUCD. > Further, the new desktop background interface is unusable without > explanation. There are no choices given by default! I had to show her > to /usr/share/backgrounds in Nautilus and demonstrate dragging images > into the Desktop Background window to change them. A simple solution is > having a something akin to Apple's "Desktop Pictures" / "Choose Folder" > options in the Mac OS X Desktop Background settings application. That should probably be filed in bugzilla - I guess by default all the images in /usr/share/backgrounds should be registered (or maybe symlinked to in the skeleton home directory as part of a "welcome pack" :) > The nightly yum update is enabled > (she ignored Windows Update alerts, and she ignored the red exclamation > point of rhn-applet-gui.) Action point: offer to run up2date in silent/automatic mode during system install like Windows XP is defaulting to in SP2 so users aren't involved in the update process. Just makes things a bit easier when installing Linux for non-technical friends/relatives. > She uses AOL for email (webmail interface). > (She has commented that people should complain to AOL that they should > make it work on Linux (not write a GTK+ client, of course, but "make it > work" on Linux; an interesting particular in the way non-hackers > understand how software works.)) I don't really understand, she uses AOL dialup? If so there is PengAOL though finding this out is *really hard* or certainly used to be back when I was trying to use Linux with AOL. If you mean something else then I think the AOL protocols are pretty much entirely reverse engineered these days, making it work would be possible if it's not already done. thanks -mike From markmc at redhat.com Fri Jul 30 15:06:27 2004 From: markmc at redhat.com (Mark McLoughlin) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 16:06:27 +0100 Subject: Updating to GNOME 2.7 Message-ID: <1091199986.17538.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hey, Just a heads up - starting soon we're going to be updating FC3 to GNOME 2.7. Its a lot of packages and there are bound to be transient problems but hopefully things won't be too bad. We'll also be going through the process (on fedora-desktop-list) of figuring out which of the new GNOME packages we'll be including in FC3. >From a cursory look, those are: - dasher - evolution-webcal - gnome-keyring-manager - gnome-nettool Appended is the list of packages which need updating. Obviously, more packages will need updating as releases upstream happen. As this is happening, please do test and report any brokenness on fedora-test-list - we'll let you know whether its a simple transient issue or something you should put into bugzilla. Thanks, Mark ORBit2 2.10.0 2.11.1 pango 1.4.0 1.5.1 atk 1.6.0 1.7.2 GConf2 2.6.0 2.7.3.1 gnome-vfs2 2.6.0 2.7.4 audiofile 0.2.5 0.2.6 libgnome 2.6.0 2.7.2 libgnomecanvas 2.6.1.1 2.7.1 libbonoboui 2.6.0 2.6.1 libgnomeui 2.6.0 2.7.2 gail 1.6.0 1.6.6 at-spi 1.4.0 1.5.3 bug-buddy 2.6.1 2.7.0 desktop-file-utils 0.4 0.7 eel2 2.6.0 2.7.3 eog 2.6.1 2.7.0 epiphany 1.2.6 1.3.3 file-roller 2.6.2 2.7.2 gal 0.24 2.1.12 gconf-editor 2.6.0 2.7.4 gdm 2.6.0.3 2.6.0.3 gedit 2.6.1 2.7.1 ggv 2.6.1 2.7.0 gnome-applets 2.6.2.1 2.7.0 gnome-desktop 2.6.0.1 2.7.4 gnome-games 2.6.2 2.7.5 gnome-icon-theme 1.2.0 1.3.5 gnome-keyring 0.2.0 0.3.2 gnome-media 2.6.2 2.7.1 gnome-netstatus 2.6.0.1 2.7.3.1 gnome-panel 2.6.0 2.7.4.1 gnome-session 2.6.0 2.7.4 gnome-speech 0.3.2 0.3.3 gnome-system-monitor 2.6.0 2.7.0 gnome-terminal 2.6.0 2.7.3 gnome-themes 2.6.0 2.7.3 gnome-utils 2.6.2 2.7.0 gnopernicus 0.9.5 0.9.6 gok 0.11.2 0.11.5 gpdf 0.131 2.7.2 gtkhtml 1.1.9 3.1.18 gtksourceview 1.0.0 1.0.1 libgail-gnome 1.0.2 1.0.5 gtkhtml2 2.6.0 2.6.2 libgtop2 2.5.2 2.7.4 librsvg2 2.6.4 2.7.2 libwnck 2.6.0.1 2.6.2.1 nautilus 2.6.0 2.7.2 nautilus-cd-burner 2.6.0 2.7.4 startup-notification 0.6 0.7 vino 2.7.3.1 2.7.4 pygtk 2.2.0 2.3.94 From asifsoofi at yahoo.com Sat Jul 31 01:16:04 2004 From: asifsoofi at yahoo.com (Muhammad Soofi) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 18:16:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: gcc-3.4.1 on amd64 Message-ID: <20040731011604.59670.qmail@web40006.mail.yahoo.com> Dear Fedora users, I am trying to install gcc-3.4.1 on my desktop which has an amd64 processor, running Fedora Core 2. The system has gcc-3.3.3 and attempts to upgrade it to gcc-3.4.1 has been unsuccessful. In the first attempt everything was kept as default. The process failed in the "make bootstrap" stage with the error: fatal error, run-time library not installed correctly cannot locate file system.ads Learning that this error is related to Ada part of gcc, decided to exclude Ada from the gcc implementation with the option: */configure --languages=c,c++,objc,f77,java This also failed with the error, /usr/bin/ld: crti.o: No such file or directory actual location of the file is, /usr/lib64/crti.o The procedure I am following is as follow: gcc341 (directory) _____________|__________ | | srcdir objdir | In the directory ran gcc-3.4.1 following commands: -> .../srcdir/gcc-3.4.1/configure -> make bootstrap -> make install The above procedure worked for installation of gcc-3.4.1 on a PII machine running Fedora Core 2 but cannot pass "make bootstrap" for amd64 machine. Any suggestion towards the solution of the problem would be highly appreciated. Thank you. Muhammad Soofi _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now. http://messenger.yahoo.com From hp at redhat.com Sat Jul 31 03:19:20 2004 From: hp at redhat.com (Havoc Pennington) Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 23:19:20 -0400 Subject: test plans In-Reply-To: References: <1091128514.3528.43.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1091243960.11500.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2004-07-30 at 09:16, Mike Hearn wrote: > Last time I checked these two were broken by the default firewall > configuration. There is a bug filed on this, assigned to Bill Nottingham I > think Aha, Colin was trying to figure that out. ;-) > > - suite of Microsoft documents to be imported correctly > > (screenshots of correct appearance?) > > I suspect OpenOffice has a test suite of these, why does it need to be > duplicated in Fedora? What we have to do is *run* the test suite on the package in Fedora. That means having a pointer to said suite and instructions on how to run it in the Fedora test plan. > - Session management works correctly in major apps? I think we've more or less given up on session management these days, though it would be nice. > > - verify that all browser plugins work (including > > the proprietary ones available from third parties) > > Heh, does that include CrossOver Plugin? :) Yep, ideally. Havoc From ephex at earthlink.net Sat Jul 31 06:18:13 2004 From: ephex at earthlink.net (Chris Farber) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 02:18:13 -0400 Subject: Quicktime In-Reply-To: References: <1091128514.3528.43.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <410B39A5.9080104@earthlink.net> Is there currently any way to watch quicktime movies inside Mozilla/Mozilla Firefox? Thanks Chris From byte at aeon.com.my Sat Jul 31 06:45:35 2004 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 16:45:35 +1000 Subject: Quicktime In-Reply-To: <410B39A5.9080104@earthlink.net> References: <1091128514.3528.43.camel@localhost.localdomain> <410B39A5.9080104@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1091256335.19546.82.camel@hermione.aeon.com.my> On Sat, 2004-07-31 at 16:18, Chris Farber wrote: > Is there currently any way to watch quicktime movies inside > Mozilla/Mozilla Firefox? fedora-list at redhat.com is the right place to ask this sort of questions http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-list/2004-January/msg03811.html (might be of some help) -- Colin Charles, byte at aeon.com.my http://www.bytebot.net/ "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mohandas Gandhi From walters at redhat.com Sat Jul 31 15:08:24 2004 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 11:08:24 -0400 Subject: test plans In-Reply-To: <1091243960.11500.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1091128514.3528.43.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1091243960.11500.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1091286504.12017.3.camel@nexus.verbum.private> On Fri, 2004-07-30 at 23:19 -0400, Havoc Pennington wrote: > On Fri, 2004-07-30 at 09:16, Mike Hearn wrote: > > Last time I checked these two were broken by the default firewall > > configuration. There is a bug filed on this, assigned to Bill Nottingham I > > think > > Aha, Colin was trying to figure that out. ;-) I dropped the firewall long ago, so I'm pretty sure that wasn't the problem. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: