From allan.wolfe at gmail.com Thu May 3 02:14:46 2007 From: allan.wolfe at gmail.com (Allan Wolfe) Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 21:14:46 -0500 Subject: Fedora 7 test 4 - NVIDIA nforce 430 SATA controller driver not loading Message-ID: I have an HP DV9000 that has an NVIDIA nforce 430/410 SATA controller. I get prompted for specifying the device driver to load at installation with Fedora 7 test 4 installation. Fedora Core 6 had no problem finding the hard drive and installing when "noapic" is added as a kernel option, though FC6 had other sordid issues post-installation. I was a bit surprised, with such a common chipset, that the driver was not on the list/supplied. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Thu May 3 04:40:11 2007 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 23:40:11 -0500 Subject: Fedora 7 test 4 - NVIDIA nforce 430 SATA controller driver notloading In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <463967AB.3030800@prodigy.net.mx> Allan Wolfe escribi?: > I have an HP DV9000 that has an NVIDIA nforce 430/410 SATA > controller. I get prompted for specifying the device driver to > load at installation with Fedora 7 test 4 installation. > > Fedora Core 6 had no problem finding the hard drive and installing > when "noapic" is added as a kernel option, though FC6 had other > sordid issues post-installation. > > I was a bit surprised, with such a common chipset, that the driver > was not on the list/supplied. This is most likely due to the redesign of the IDE/ATA/SATA/SCSI bus in the kernel. From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon May 7 16:59:30 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 22:29:30 +0530 Subject: Playing with Big Board Message-ID: <463F5AF2.80803@fedoraproject.org> Hi I have been running Big Board ever since it was brought up on this list. Some questions and observations: Is this meant to replace both the top and bottom GNOME panels? I don't see a equivalent of a task bar if it's meant to replace them both. Why hasn't the package been submitted for review? The color on the panel is a plain white and doesn't match the rest of GNOME system colors. I see no way to move the panel around either. I can understand the lack of a quit option if it is meant to replace the panel. Is big board tied to mugshot? What if I don't have a mugshot account? Trying to change the pic shown on the identity, application descriptions, more button in calendar etc launches mugshot pages. The icons including facebook, flickr etc doesn't have any tooltips. The functionality of deskbar is not obvious. The more link on applications launches a side panel. The descriptions near the search button sometimes overflows the boundary. Example: Epiphany. Installing a new application via the menu launches a command line yum command. Though it works this is crude. You should be using the Yum API and integrating with Pirut instead. Clicking on another area of the desktop doesn't close this menu or even move it away which is annoying. There are three sections - applications, photos and calendar. If i don't intend to use any or all of these sections in the panel there is no way to remove them although clicking on it minimizing the section within the panel. Rahul From jkeating at redhat.com Mon May 7 17:08:29 2007 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 13:08:29 -0400 Subject: Playing with Big Board In-Reply-To: <463F5AF2.80803@fedoraproject.org> References: <463F5AF2.80803@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <200705071308.29497.jkeating@redhat.com> On Monday 07 May 2007 12:59:30 Rahul Sundaram wrote: > ? Some questions and observations: Many of these might be answered by http://developer.mugshot.org/wiki/Big_Board specifically the Design and Development links. As to why it isn't in Fedora yet, most likely because it's not ready for wide spread use. -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mclasen at redhat.com Mon May 7 17:14:05 2007 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 13:14:05 -0400 Subject: Playing with Big Board In-Reply-To: <200705071308.29497.jkeating@redhat.com> References: <463F5AF2.80803@fedoraproject.org> <200705071308.29497.jkeating@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1178558045.9714.12.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> On Mon, 2007-05-07 at 13:08 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Monday 07 May 2007 12:59:30 Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > Some questions and observations: > > Many of these might be answered by http://developer.mugshot.org/wiki/Big_Board > specifically the Design and Development links. > > As to why it isn't in Fedora yet, most likely because it's not ready for wide > spread use. It is not in fedora yet because getting stuff into Fedora is reasonably hard... Colins review request for the required hippo-canvas was stuff without a reviewer for a month before I reviewed and approved it, I guess Colin is now looking for a sponsor to get hippo-canvas in... Matthias From mclasen at redhat.com Mon May 7 17:28:16 2007 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 13:28:16 -0400 Subject: Plans for the desktop beyond Fedora 7 Message-ID: <1178558896.9714.20.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> The desktop team has recently started to think about what things we want to focus on beyond F7, and what we want to improve in the Fedora 8 timeframe. While there are no very detailed specs and commitments yet, I have put together some preliminary information in the wiki, and I'd like to share it with the interested public on this mailing list. Feel free to comment and discuss. There will be some more feature descriptions in the near future, and the ones I have begun will hopefully be fleshed out more fully by their respective owners. Matthias http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeaturePulseaudio http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeaturePolicyKit http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureBigboard From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon May 7 17:31:37 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 23:01:37 +0530 Subject: Playing with Big Board In-Reply-To: <200705071308.29497.jkeating@redhat.com> References: <463F5AF2.80803@fedoraproject.org> <200705071308.29497.jkeating@redhat.com> Message-ID: <463F6279.7070302@fedoraproject.org> Jesse Keating wrote: > On Monday 07 May 2007 12:59:30 Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> Some questions and observations: > > Many of these might be answered by http://developer.mugshot.org/wiki/Big_Board > specifically the Design and Development links. > I did read them of course. They don't seem to answer my questions though. Rahul From jkeating at redhat.com Mon May 7 18:21:32 2007 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 14:21:32 -0400 Subject: Playing with Big Board In-Reply-To: <1178558045.9714.12.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> References: <463F5AF2.80803@fedoraproject.org> <200705071308.29497.jkeating@redhat.com> <1178558045.9714.12.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <200705071421.32486.jkeating@redhat.com> On Monday 07 May 2007 13:14:05 Matthias Clasen wrote: > It is not in fedora yet because getting stuff into Fedora is reasonably > hard... Colins review request for the required hippo-canvas was stuff > without a reviewer for a month before I reviewed and approved it, I > guess Colin is now looking for a sponsor to get hippo-canvas in... Yes, sometimes finding a reviewer is not an easy task, especially if you don't persue it at all. There is a HUGE queue of unreviewed packages. It takes a little bit of effort to find a peer to review it for you. -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bclark at redhat.com Mon May 7 19:19:13 2007 From: bclark at redhat.com (Bryan Clark) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 15:19:13 -0400 Subject: Playing with Big Board In-Reply-To: <463F5AF2.80803@fedoraproject.org> References: <463F5AF2.80803@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <463F7BB1.8020803@redhat.com> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > I have been running Big Board ever since it was brought up on this > list. Some questions and observations: Awesome! We'd love to hear the feedback you have on it. > Is this meant to replace both the top and bottom GNOME panels? I don't > see a equivalent of a task bar if it's meant to replace them both. Why > hasn't the package been submitted for review? The color on the panel > is a plain white and doesn't match the rest of GNOME system colors. I > see no way to move the panel around either. I can understand the lack > of a quit option if it is meant to replace the panel. Big board is the begining of the replacement for the panels. However we're not working on any kind of task switcher replacement just yet, that's another task that we believe can be focused on separately. Right now we're just using the big board with the existing bottom panel, moving the top panel applets down accordingly. Since we're working to get some other elements together it's likely that big board won't get that kind of panel configuration you expect for a while as those are features which require lots of small correct details and thus tend to drag down development of other areas. A quit option is probably a good idea for big board for now, we just haven't put it in there yet. Really the inclusion of a quit option has the inverse graph of the inclusion of other panel features; at some point they'll meet in the middle :) > Is big board tied to mugshot? What if I don't have a mugshot account? > Trying to change the pic shown on the identity, application > descriptions, more button in calendar etc launches mugshot pages. Right now it is tied to mugshot so if you don't have a mugshot account that you're signed into it tries to help you get one (why it's launching all mugshot pages). A mugshot account is quick, painless, and free to get and the big board won't do fun stuff until you have one. Right now big board is using the mugshot application over dbus to talk to request information from the mugshot server. It's possible to have an alternate backend to much of what mugshot service provides, it would just require a lot more preference dialogs for the user to fill out and a lot of work for us to do in parallel to building big board itself. However we know that an alternative backend is going to be needed eventually so effort has been put into the code making it flexible to that need. > The icons including facebook, flickr etc doesn't have any tooltips. Ah, but they could! Grab a shovel and start digging! That part is probably only a line or two of code [1] > The functionality of deskbar is not obvious. We're looking into some ways to make it more obvious. [2] That one has the code out there in a previous version already, we just need to dig it up and get it back into deskbar. > > The more link on applications launches a side panel. The descriptions > near the search button sometimes overflows the boundary. Yep, that's a known bug, but since it isn't too big of a deal (i.e. doesn't hamper usage) we've ignored it. The app browser is lacking lots of visual quality to it, but we've been heads down on getting things like the installation and suggested application search working. > Example: Epiphany. Installing a new application via the menu launches > a command line yum command. Though it works this is crude. You should > be using the Yum API and integrating with Pirut instead. Yep, on rawhide I believe you should be seeing system-config-packages doing the installation. The yum command line utility is just a hack for now because the sys-config app didn't support taking a package name as a command line argument. > Clicking on another area of the desktop doesn't close this menu or > even move it away which is annoying. Yes, known problem. It's a little frustrating that it's staying on top right now. > There are three sections - applications, photos and calendar. If i > don't intend to use any or all of these sections in the panel there is > no way to remove them although clicking on it minimizing the section > within the panel. Ah, you're talking about the soon to be Portfolio Manager! (we call the sections stocks) The PM is going to be modeled after the application browser interface, which we aren't at a good point to stop with. So you should get a very similar feel of being able to search all the stocks you have installed while looking at a quick view of the stocks you're using. Also similar hooking into a web service that delivers the most popular stock in the category / search query you're viewing; helping you find new stocks. You might want to also look at the Online Desktop Project page [3] which has lots of other information about areas of development that include the big board. Cheers, ~ Bryan [1] http://developer.mugshot.org/wiki/Subversion [2] http://mail.gnome.org/archives/deskbar-applet-list/2007-April/msg00018.html [3] http://developer.mugshot.org/wiki/Online_Desktop_Project From walters at redhat.com Mon May 7 19:29:51 2007 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 15:29:51 -0400 Subject: Playing with Big Board In-Reply-To: <463F5AF2.80803@fedoraproject.org> References: <463F5AF2.80803@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <463F7E2F.4010702@redhat.com> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > I have been running Big Board ever since it was brought up on this > list. Some questions and observations: > > Is this meant to replace both the top and bottom GNOME panels? I don't > see a equivalent of a task bar if it's meant to replace them both. It's meant to replace the top panel. The bottom panel will be the task bar. > Why hasn't the package been submitted for review? It depends on hippo-canvas which is awaiting a sponsor. > The color on the panel is a plain white and doesn't match the rest of > GNOME system colors. I think GNOME upstream was talking about moving to white. But, true. It does need more visual design. > I see no way to move the panel around either. I can understand the > lack of a quit option if it is meant to replace the panel. The former will hopefully be added soon. As for a quit I'd like to be able to minimize it to the bottom panel basically or the like, but it needs some interaction design there. > > Is big board tied to mugshot? What if I don't have a mugshot account? > Trying to change the pic shown on the identity, application > descriptions, more button in calendar etc launches mugshot pages. We're using Mugshot as the server basis, yep. We're using it as basically a public service where we can store data online like the preferred applications and photo. > The icons including facebook, flickr etc doesn't have any tooltips. > The functionality of deskbar is not obvious. > Hm, tooltip functionality seems to have broken in the canvas recently. Can you explain a bit more about what you expected the search box to do, but didn't? Or it did that you didn't expect? > The more link on applications launches a side panel. The descriptions > near the search button sometimes overflows the boundary. Example: > Epiphany. Yeah, I hope to fix that soon. > Installing a new application via the menu launches a command line yum > command. Though it works this is crude. You should be using the Yum > API and integrating with Pirut instead. Right. > Clicking on another area of the desktop doesn't close this menu or > even move it away which is annoying. > Hm; did you expect clicking elsewhere to close it? What outside of the desktop context did you want to switch to? > There are three sections - applications, photos and calendar. If i > don't intend to use any or all of these sections in the panel there is > no way to remove them although clicking on it minimizing the section > within the panel. > Yeah, portfolio management is something we will need to add, but I think in the short short term we are going to get rid of the calendar stock and replace it with a people stock which should be more useful. From bpepple at fedoraproject.org Mon May 7 19:41:11 2007 From: bpepple at fedoraproject.org (Brian Pepple) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 15:41:11 -0400 Subject: Playing with Big Board In-Reply-To: <463F7E2F.4010702@redhat.com> References: <463F5AF2.80803@fedoraproject.org> <463F7E2F.4010702@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1178566871.11094.2.camel@lincoln> On Mon, 2007-05-07 at 15:29 -0400, Colin Walters wrote: > Rahul Sundaram wrote: > It's meant to replace the top panel. The bottom panel will be the task bar. > > Why hasn't the package been submitted for review? > > It depends on hippo-canvas which is awaiting a sponsor. I'm willing to be your sponsor. /B -- Brian Pepple gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 810CC15E BD5E 6F9E 8688 E668 8F5B CBDE 326A E936 810C C15E -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Mon May 7 19:55:19 2007 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 15:55:19 -0400 Subject: Plans for the desktop beyond Fedora 7 In-Reply-To: <1178558896.9714.20.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> References: <1178558896.9714.20.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1178567719.11522.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2007-05-07 at 13:28 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > The desktop team has recently started to think about what things we want > to focus on beyond F7, and what we want to improve in the Fedora 8 > timeframe. > > While there are no very detailed specs and commitments yet, I have put > together some preliminary information in the wiki, and I'd like to > share it with the interested public on this mailing list. Feel free > to comment and discuss. There will be some more feature descriptions > in the near future, and the ones I have begun will hopefully be fleshed > out more fully by their respective owners. > > Matthias > > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeaturePulseaudio > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeaturePolicyKit > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureBigboard Matthias, is PolicyKit the right place to request a feature such as poking firewall holes for avahi (Rhythmbox sharing, etc.)? I seem to remember that was one of the targets for this package. Of course, I may be misremembering that detail... -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PaulWFrields irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon May 7 20:03:10 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 01:33:10 +0530 Subject: Playing with Big Board In-Reply-To: <463F7E2F.4010702@redhat.com> References: <463F5AF2.80803@fedoraproject.org> <463F7E2F.4010702@redhat.com> Message-ID: <463F85FE.10109@fedoraproject.org> Colin Walters wrote: >> Is big board tied to mugshot? What if I don't have a mugshot account? >> Trying to change the pic shown on the identity, application >> descriptions, more button in calendar etc launches mugshot pages. > We're using Mugshot as the server basis, yep. We're using it as > basically a public service where we can store data online like the > preferred applications and photo. So what happens when I don't have a net connection or just don't want to have a mugshot account? Can big board cope up with that and produce a reasonably good user experience similar with what we have with our current "offline desktop" if you will. > Can you explain a bit more about what you expected the search box to do, > but didn't? Or it did that you didn't expect? It looks like a text box though the icon tool tip says "Show previously used actions" and I tried typing in browser (some grayed text that says search here or a title "Search" might make it more obvious) which showed up a list of applications with the word browser on them which was expected but there was some entries like login photo which was unexpected. It produces a search list from yahoo which was unexpected since I don't yahoo for searches. I couldn't figure out why or how I could change it to use a different search engine or just turn off web searches. I was expecting it to pick up the search engine settings from Firefox. In general I find applications unexpecting launching web pages and grabbing focus annoying. Reminds me of advertising popups that distract me from whatever task I was set to do. Big board does that and does that unexpectedly. For example, more in the applications stock launches a hybrid between a menu and a panel while other similar sections launches mugshot pages. I think having more settings within the application itself while picking up whatever settings it needs from mugshot, flickr or whatever service on the background would be better. Changing my photo id, adding some applications stock, installing ,uninstalling one from the system via the menu etc. I want my local desktop experience to be coherent connected applications rather than a loose collection of web pages linked from a application which is what big board feels like. > Hm; did you expect clicking elsewhere to close it? What outside of the > desktop context did you want to switch to? Yes. A normal menu would close when I click elsewhere. I think the GNOME slab menu which looks very similar in structure does the same. I was trying to access another application via a icon on the desktop or just read my mail instead of big board menu staying on top. It would have been ok if it didn't close as long as it would just moved out of my way and stay on the background when I click something. Rahul From dcbw at redhat.com Mon May 7 21:03:54 2007 From: dcbw at redhat.com (Dan Williams) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 17:03:54 -0400 Subject: Plans for the desktop beyond Fedora 7 In-Reply-To: <1178567719.11522.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1178558896.9714.20.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <1178567719.11522.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1178571834.11805.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2007-05-07 at 15:55 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Mon, 2007-05-07 at 13:28 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > The desktop team has recently started to think about what things we want > > to focus on beyond F7, and what we want to improve in the Fedora 8 > > timeframe. > > > > While there are no very detailed specs and commitments yet, I have put > > together some preliminary information in the wiki, and I'd like to > > share it with the interested public on this mailing list. Feel free > > to comment and discuss. There will be some more feature descriptions > > in the near future, and the ones I have begun will hopefully be fleshed > > out more fully by their respective owners. > > > > Matthias > > > > > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeaturePulseaudio > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeaturePolicyKit > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureBigboard > > Matthias, is PolicyKit the right place to request a feature such as > poking firewall holes for avahi (Rhythmbox sharing, etc.)? I seem to > remember that was one of the targets for this package. Of course, I may > be misremembering that detail... It's not the right place to _implement_ the poking of holes, but PolicyKit would hopefully be used by the thing that actually poked the holes to determine if you are authorized to poke holes. It's more of a "decider" than an actor. The actor asks policy kit if some operation is authorized, and PolicyKit says "yes/no". Dan From walters at redhat.com Mon May 7 12:33:29 2007 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 08:33:29 -0400 Subject: Playing with Big Board In-Reply-To: <463F85FE.10109@fedoraproject.org> References: <463F5AF2.80803@fedoraproject.org> <463F7E2F.4010702@redhat.com> <463F85FE.10109@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1178541209.28657.22.camel@neutron> On Tue, 2007-05-08 at 01:33 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > So what happens when I don't have a net connection or just don't want to > have a mugshot account? Can big board cope up with that and produce a > reasonably good user experience similar with what we have with our > current "offline desktop" if you will. It wants you to sign in, but you can use the app browser in an offline mode right now, though admittedly it isn't as good. Keep in mind that the big board is intended to be part of the larger online desktop mode, and I think Mugshot fits pretty well for someone who mostly uses online apps. > It looks like a text box though the icon tool tip says "Show previously > used actions" and I tried typing in browser (some grayed text that says > search here or a title "Search" might make it more obvious) That's in the mockups actually, but it's difficult to implement right now due to the way we reuse deskbar (a fix for this would really be a fix for deskbar). > which showed > up a list of applications with the word browser on them which was > expected but there was some entries like login photo which was > unexpected. It searches full description, I assume the login photo chooser had some random bit of text in there. We might refine the search to have some concept of relevance, but I think it's pretty decent for now. > It produces a search list from yahoo which was unexpected > since I don't yahoo for searches. I couldn't figure out why or how I > could change it to use a different search engine or just turn off web > searches. I was expecting it to pick up the search engine settings from > Firefox. A lot of people (including me) will likely be using Google for searches, but - there is no Google search API for programs any more. Trust me if we could we would! I'm sure the deskbar developers would love if this was fixed somehow too, but the only Google API available now basically requires a web browser, and I'm not sure how that could be fit into the search results cleanly. > In general I find applications unexpecting launching web pages and > grabbing focus annoying. Reminds me of advertising popups that distract > me from whatever task I was set to do. Big board does that and does > that unexpectedly. For example, more in the applications stock launches > a hybrid between a menu and a panel while other similar sections > launches mugshot pages. Right now I think it is annoying that firefox doesn't come to the top; I think we may have to pass a timestamp or something to gnome-open. But a big part of the online desktop is integrating with web pages, so we will need to make sure it works well. > I think having more settings within the application itself while picking > up whatever settings it needs from mugshot, flickr or whatever service > on the background would be better. Changing my photo id, adding some > applications stock, installing ,uninstalling one from the system via the > menu etc. > We're trying to avoid duplicating existing stuff such as the list-infos portion of Mugshot. > I want my local desktop experience to be coherent connected applications > rather than a loose collection of web pages linked from a application > which is what big board feels like. A big goal of the online desktop is to make the experience better for people who already mostly use web applications like GMail/Flickr etc. In isolation the big board using the browser may seem different, but I think the picture will make more sense when we have things like e.g. GMail under the Applications menu. > Yes. A normal menu would close when I click elsewhere. I think the GNOME > slab menu which looks very similar in structure does the same. I was > trying to access another application via a icon on the desktop or just > read my mail instead of big board menu staying on top. It would have > been ok if it didn't close as long as it would just moved out of my way > and stay on the background when I click something. I've removed the keep_on_top flag in Subversion which should help. From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon May 7 21:10:01 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 02:40:01 +0530 Subject: Playing with Big Board In-Reply-To: <1178541209.28657.22.camel@neutron> References: <463F5AF2.80803@fedoraproject.org> <463F7E2F.4010702@redhat.com> <463F85FE.10109@fedoraproject.org> <1178541209.28657.22.camel@neutron> Message-ID: <463F95A9.3000508@fedoraproject.org> Colin Walters wrote: > Keep in mind that the big board is intended to be part of the larger > online desktop mode, and I think Mugshot fits pretty well for someone > who mostly uses online apps. I am thinking that if we are going to have big board by default on F8 the user experience should be better than or atleast comparable to what we have already. > > A lot of people (including me) will likely be using Google for searches, > but - there is no Google search API for programs any more. Trust me if > we could we would! Somebody needs to beat some sense into Google I guess. > I've removed the keep_on_top flag in Subversion which should help. Thanks. Rahul From mclasen at redhat.com Mon May 7 22:15:59 2007 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 18:15:59 -0400 Subject: Plans for the desktop beyond Fedora 7 In-Reply-To: <1178567719.11522.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1178558896.9714.20.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <1178567719.11522.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1178576159.3067.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2007-05-07 at 15:55 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > Matthias, is PolicyKit the right place to request a feature such as > poking firewall holes for avahi (Rhythmbox sharing, etc.)? I seem to > remember that was one of the targets for this package. Of course, I may > be misremembering that detail... > Yes, that's another use case where PolicyKit will be used. From mclasen at redhat.com Mon May 7 22:26:11 2007 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 18:26:11 -0400 Subject: Playing with Big Board In-Reply-To: <463F95A9.3000508@fedoraproject.org> References: <463F5AF2.80803@fedoraproject.org> <463F7E2F.4010702@redhat.com> <463F85FE.10109@fedoraproject.org> <1178541209.28657.22.camel@neutron> <463F95A9.3000508@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1178576771.3067.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2007-05-08 at 02:40 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Colin Walters wrote: > > > Keep in mind that the big board is intended to be part of the larger > > online desktop mode, and I think Mugshot fits pretty well for someone > > who mostly uses online apps. > > I am thinking that if we are going to have big board by default on F8 > the user experience should be better than or atleast comparable to what > we have already. > > The current thinking is that we are going to have an "online desktop" mode and some way to switch between the online and traditional desktop modes. Realistically, bigboard and the whole online desktop will still be a bit experimental by the time F8 comes around. From davidz at redhat.com Tue May 8 02:46:01 2007 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Mon, 07 May 2007 22:46:01 -0400 Subject: Plans for the desktop beyond Fedora 7 In-Reply-To: <1178571834.11805.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1178558896.9714.20.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <1178567719.11522.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1178571834.11805.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1178592361.3570.5.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> On Mon, 2007-05-07 at 17:03 -0400, Dan Williams wrote: > > Matthias, is PolicyKit the right place to request a feature such as > > poking firewall holes for avahi (Rhythmbox sharing, etc.)? I seem to > > remember that was one of the targets for this package. Of course, I may > > be misremembering that detail... > > It's not the right place to _implement_ the poking of holes, but > PolicyKit would hopefully be used by the thing that actually poked the > holes to determine if you are authorized to poke holes. It's more of a > "decider" than an actor. The actor asks policy kit if some operation is > authorized, and PolicyKit says "yes/no". Yeah, that's a pretty accurate description. So I actually happen to have a bunch of high-level notes about the whole thing that I will post soon. Just need to sort them out so they sort of make sense. Until then, there's already code in git (with 100% gtk-doc coverage!) that should give a hint or two about how the whole thing works.. http://gitweb.freedesktop.org/?p=PolicyKit.git Also, I hope to land this pretty early in the Fedora 8 cycle because I've already added support for this thing in HAL and gnome-mount. Anyway, more on this later... David From romal at gmx.de Tue May 8 06:44:40 2007 From: romal at gmx.de (Robert M. Albrecht) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 08:44:40 +0200 Subject: Plans for the desktop beyond Fedora 7 In-Reply-To: <1178558896.9714.20.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> References: <1178558896.9714.20.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <46401C58.8060806@gmx.de> Hi, some things I would love to see improved: Network related - vpn and dialup integration for network manager - a gui for pairing with bluetooth devices - a gui for setting up bluetooth and usb dialup devices (mobile phones) for connecting to the internet - a gui for setting up 3g networks (umts, ...) for internet access. This could be an extension to system-config-network Booting - faster boot when not connected to a network; many services are starting really slow, if the network is down - faster boot times at all Security - disabling root (like ubuntu), thus forcing the user to work as a non-root user - some kind of backup tool, for the whole system or the users profile and data - Integration of clamav in Evolution and Thunderbird - support for encryption of user data ( /home/...) Configuration - Ubuntu has two software installation tools. One shows the complete repository, the other is intented for endusers. Listed are only applications, with a rating, how well it integrates into the used gui, ... I think this is really cool. Many users are overwhelmed by that many choices Pirut offers. Perhaps this could simply by a button in Pirut to suppress libs or - GUI for adding third party repositories - GUI for managing raid configurations, Anacondo can to this, but only at installation time. If you add a hdd after installation, you have to use mdadm manually. GUI - enable Gnomes NFS browsing (network places), in F7 only smb-browsing seems to be enabled. - enable more than three mouse-buttons - enhancing the gui for extended keyboards - a GUI for laptop-related things: laptop-mode, configuration suspend2ram or suspend2disk, power-management, ... cu romal Matthias Clasen schrieb: > The desktop team has recently started to think about what things we want > to focus on beyond F7, and what we want to improve in the Fedora 8 > timeframe. > > While there are no very detailed specs and commitments yet, I have put > together some preliminary information in the wiki, and I'd like to > share it with the interested public on this mailing list. Feel free > to comment and discuss. There will be some more feature descriptions > in the near future, and the ones I have begun will hopefully be fleshed > out more fully by their respective owners. > > Matthias > > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeaturePulseaudio > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeaturePolicyKit > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureBigboard > > From bnocera at redhat.com Tue May 8 10:46:19 2007 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 11:46:19 +0100 Subject: Plans for the desktop beyond Fedora 7 In-Reply-To: <1178558896.9714.20.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> References: <1178558896.9714.20.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1178621179.31098.10.camel@cookie.hadess.net> Hey Matthias, On Mon, 2007-05-07 at 13:28 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > The desktop team has recently started to think about what things we want > to focus on beyond F7, and what we want to improve in the Fedora 8 > timeframe. > > While there are no very detailed specs and commitments yet, I have put > together some preliminary information in the wiki, and I'd like to > share it with the interested public on this mailing list. Feel free > to comment and discuss. There will be some more feature descriptions > in the near future, and the ones I have begun will hopefully be fleshed > out more fully by their respective owners. > > Matthias > > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeaturePulseaudio I added my soundcard use cases to the page. I posted them quite some time ago, at http://mail.gnome.org/archives/utopia-list/2005-July/msg00001.html And I believe they're pretty good starting points as well. > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeaturePolicyKit For use case 3, I guess that Ray's girlfriend shouldn't be able to shutdown the computer, as Ray is busy downloading *cough*art-house movies*cough*. Shouldn't it be only the "principal" user that should be able to choose whether other users can shut down the computer? > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureBigboard And let's add http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureBluetooth I hope a lot of the Bluetooth SoC work will clear that up, although the subject is so wide that one person is far from enough to take it on by themselves... Cheers From mclasen at redhat.com Tue May 8 12:21:21 2007 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 08:21:21 -0400 Subject: Plans for the desktop beyond Fedora 7 In-Reply-To: <1178621179.31098.10.camel@cookie.hadess.net> References: <1178558896.9714.20.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <1178621179.31098.10.camel@cookie.hadess.net> Message-ID: <1178626881.3490.19.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> On Tue, 2007-05-08 at 11:46 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeaturePolicyKit > > For use case 3, I guess that Ray's girlfriend shouldn't be able to > shutdown the computer, as Ray is busy downloading *cough*art-house > movies*cough*. Shouldn't it be only the "principal" user that should be > able to choose whether other users can shut down the computer? The idea here is there will be two different privileges here, one for shutting down the machine with only one session, and one for shutting down with multiple sessions. gdm can then be smart and ask PolicyKit for the right privilege, depending on the situation. From mclasen at redhat.com Tue May 8 12:47:31 2007 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 08:47:31 -0400 Subject: Plans for the desktop beyond Fedora 7 In-Reply-To: <46401C58.8060806@gmx.de> References: <1178558896.9714.20.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <46401C58.8060806@gmx.de> Message-ID: <1178628451.3490.32.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> On Tue, 2007-05-08 at 08:44 +0200, Robert M. Albrecht wrote: > Hi, > > some things I would love to see improved: Thanks for jumping right into this discussion. Your contribution is very appreciated. Even cooler than a long list of things you would like to see improved would be a shorter list of things you can imagine improving yourself. With the new merged and more open Fedora, there is ample opportunity for people outside of the desktop team to contribute. > Network related > > - vpn and dialup integration for network manager We are going to post our plans for NM work for Fedora 8 shortly. > - a gui for pairing with bluetooth devices > - a gui for setting up bluetooth and usb dialup devices (mobile phones) > for connecting to the internet > - a gui for setting up 3g networks (umts, ...) for internet access. This > could be an extension to system-config-network Bastian already send a pointer to his Bluetooth writeup. A lot of this depends on how well the SoC project for Bluetooth goes. > > - faster boot when not connected to a network; many services are > starting really slow, if the network is down > - faster boot times at all We are also going to post our plans for startup modernization in a bit. > Security > > - disabling root (like ubuntu), thus forcing the user to work as a > non-root user This is a really easy fix, just toggling a gdm setting. We might do this by default for Fedora 8. > - some kind of backup tool, for the whole system or the users profile > and data > - Integration of clamav in Evolution and Thunderbird > - support for encryption of user data ( /home/...) Some of these things should probably be discussed in the wider context of fedora-devel, since they are not really desktop specific. > Configuration > > - Ubuntu has two software installation tools. One shows the complete > repository, the other is intented for endusers. Listed are only > applications, with a rating, how well it integrates into the used gui, > ... I think this is really cool. Many users are overwhelmed by that many > choices Pirut offers. Perhaps this could simply by a button in Pirut to > suppress libs or > - GUI for adding third party repositories > - GUI for managing raid configurations, Anacondo can to this, but only > at installation time. If you add a hdd after installation, you have to > use mdadm manually. These sound all like good things. For improved software installation, I hope that bigboards application browser can make a difference there. > GUI > > - enable Gnomes NFS browsing (network places), in F7 only smb-browsing > seems to be enabled. > - enable more than three mouse-buttons > - enhancing the gui for extended keyboards > - a GUI for laptop-related things: laptop-mode, configuration > suspend2ram or suspend2disk, power-management, ... Can you be more specific what you are missing here ? - How do you envision the user interface to use a fourth mouse button (apart from special applications that may need the extra button) ? - What keyboard configuration are you missing (other than keyboard layouts that actually match your keyboard) ? From tiagomatos at gmail.com Tue May 8 13:01:55 2007 From: tiagomatos at gmail.com (Rui Tiago =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ca=E7=E3o?= Matos) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 14:01:55 +0100 Subject: Plans for the desktop beyond Fedora 7 In-Reply-To: <46401C58.8060806@gmx.de> References: <1178558896.9714.20.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <46401C58.8060806@gmx.de> Message-ID: <1178629315.18226.9.camel@hive> On Ter, 2007-05-08 at 08:44 +0200, Robert M. Albrecht wrote: > Network related > > - vpn and dialup integration for network manager > - a gui for pairing with bluetooth devices > - a gui for setting up bluetooth and usb dialup devices (mobile phones) > for connecting to the internet > - a gui for setting up 3g networks (umts, ...) for internet access. This > could be an extension to system-config-network I'd rather prefer that system-config-network disappeared (at least as a default) and Network Manager becomes the default network management system... Rui -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From dcbw at redhat.com Tue May 8 14:00:13 2007 From: dcbw at redhat.com (Dan Williams) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 10:00:13 -0400 Subject: Plans for the desktop beyond Fedora 7 In-Reply-To: <46401C58.8060806@gmx.de> References: <1178558896.9714.20.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <46401C58.8060806@gmx.de> Message-ID: <1178632813.17850.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2007-05-08 at 08:44 +0200, Robert M. Albrecht wrote: > Hi, > > some things I would love to see improved: > > Network related > > - vpn and dialup integration for network manager > - a gui for pairing with bluetooth devices > - a gui for setting up bluetooth and usb dialup devices (mobile phones) > for connecting to the internet > - a gui for setting up 3g networks (umts, ...) for internet access. This > could be an extension to system-config-network These are all targets for NetworkManager in the quite-near future, though PPP (ie Bluetooth DUN, 1xRTT/EVDO/GPRS/EDGE/UMTS, and ISDN/Dialup) may be added on a bit later. It's estimated that NM 0.7 will be done in the FC-8 timeframe (though that's what I said for FC-7 too), which is flexible enough to at least enable all the PPP stuff without breaking API or anything. Dan > Booting > > - faster boot when not connected to a network; many services are > starting really slow, if the network is down > - faster boot times at all > > Security > > - disabling root (like ubuntu), thus forcing the user to work as a > non-root user > - some kind of backup tool, for the whole system or the users profile > and data > - Integration of clamav in Evolution and Thunderbird > - support for encryption of user data ( /home/...) > > Configuration > > - Ubuntu has two software installation tools. One shows the complete > repository, the other is intented for endusers. Listed are only > applications, with a rating, how well it integrates into the used gui, > ... I think this is really cool. Many users are overwhelmed by that many > choices Pirut offers. Perhaps this could simply by a button in Pirut to > suppress libs or > - GUI for adding third party repositories > - GUI for managing raid configurations, Anacondo can to this, but only > at installation time. If you add a hdd after installation, you have to > use mdadm manually. > > GUI > > - enable Gnomes NFS browsing (network places), in F7 only smb-browsing > seems to be enabled. > - enable more than three mouse-buttons > - enhancing the gui for extended keyboards > - a GUI for laptop-related things: laptop-mode, configuration > suspend2ram or suspend2disk, power-management, ... > > cu romal > > > Matthias Clasen schrieb: > > The desktop team has recently started to think about what things we want > > to focus on beyond F7, and what we want to improve in the Fedora 8 > > timeframe. > > > > While there are no very detailed specs and commitments yet, I have put > > together some preliminary information in the wiki, and I'd like to > > share it with the interested public on this mailing list. Feel free > > to comment and discuss. There will be some more feature descriptions > > in the near future, and the ones I have begun will hopefully be fleshed > > out more fully by their respective owners. > > > > Matthias > > > > > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeaturePulseaudio > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeaturePolicyKit > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureBigboard > > > > > From dcbw at redhat.com Tue May 8 14:02:08 2007 From: dcbw at redhat.com (Dan Williams) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 10:02:08 -0400 Subject: Plans for the desktop beyond Fedora 7 In-Reply-To: <1178628451.3490.32.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> References: <1178558896.9714.20.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <46401C58.8060806@gmx.de> <1178628451.3490.32.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1178632928.17850.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2007-05-08 at 08:47 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Tue, 2007-05-08 at 08:44 +0200, Robert M. Albrecht wrote: > > Hi, > > > > some things I would love to see improved: > > Thanks for jumping right into this discussion. Your contribution is very > appreciated. Even cooler than a long list of things you would like to > see improved would be a shorter list of things you can imagine improving > yourself. With the new merged and more open Fedora, there is ample > opportunity for people outside of the desktop team to contribute. > > > Network related > > > > - vpn and dialup integration for network manager > > We are going to post our plans for NM work for Fedora 8 shortly. > > > - a gui for pairing with bluetooth devices > > - a gui for setting up bluetooth and usb dialup devices (mobile phones) > > for connecting to the internet > > - a gui for setting up 3g networks (umts, ...) for internet access. This > > could be an extension to system-config-network > > Bastian already send a pointer to his Bluetooth writeup. A lot of > this depends on how well the SoC project for Bluetooth goes. There have been patches for BT PAN posted to gnome bugzilla for NetworkManager that recognize the device and talk to it, we're working through the specifics at this time. The BT guys hadn't understood how BT support in NM should be structured, so there was some lag during the education period. http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=432774 Dan > > > > - faster boot when not connected to a network; many services are > > starting really slow, if the network is down > > - faster boot times at all > > We are also going to post our plans for startup modernization in a bit. > > > Security > > > > - disabling root (like ubuntu), thus forcing the user to work as a > > non-root user > > This is a really easy fix, just toggling a gdm setting. We might do this > by default for Fedora 8. > > > - some kind of backup tool, for the whole system or the users profile > > and data > > - Integration of clamav in Evolution and Thunderbird > > - support for encryption of user data ( /home/...) > > Some of these things should probably be discussed in the wider context > of fedora-devel, since they are not really desktop specific. > > > > Configuration > > > > - Ubuntu has two software installation tools. One shows the complete > > repository, the other is intented for endusers. Listed are only > > applications, with a rating, how well it integrates into the used gui, > > ... I think this is really cool. Many users are overwhelmed by that many > > choices Pirut offers. Perhaps this could simply by a button in Pirut to > > suppress libs or > > - GUI for adding third party repositories > > - GUI for managing raid configurations, Anacondo can to this, but only > > at installation time. If you add a hdd after installation, you have to > > use mdadm manually. > > These sound all like good things. For improved software installation, I > hope that bigboards application browser can make a difference there. > > > GUI > > > > - enable Gnomes NFS browsing (network places), in F7 only smb-browsing > > seems to be enabled. > > - enable more than three mouse-buttons > > - enhancing the gui for extended keyboards > > - a GUI for laptop-related things: laptop-mode, configuration > > suspend2ram or suspend2disk, power-management, ... > > > Can you be more specific what you are missing here ? > > - How do you envision the user interface to use a fourth mouse button > (apart from special applications that may need the extra button) ? > - What keyboard configuration are you missing (other than keyboard > layouts that actually match your keyboard) ? > > From romal at gmx.de Tue May 8 15:07:19 2007 From: romal at gmx.de (Robert M. Albrecht) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 17:07:19 +0200 Subject: Plans for the desktop beyond Fedora 7 In-Reply-To: <1178558896.9714.20.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> References: <1178558896.9714.20.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <46409227.6060705@gmx.de> Hi, installing pdf-creation-tools is non-intuitive. It`s burried deep inside cups and has to be installed manually. I create many pdfs,I use it every day. I imagine this is widespread usage. PDF should have a more prominet place. Even more, we can show what Fedora can do, as other operating-systems do not have built-in pdf-creating-capabilities. This could be an extensio to first boot: - Do you want to created pdf-files ? - Do you want to setup your email-encryption ? ... cu romal Matthias Clasen schrieb: > The desktop team has recently started to think about what things we want > to focus on beyond F7, and what we want to improve in the Fedora 8 > timeframe. > > While there are no very detailed specs and commitments yet, I have put > together some preliminary information in the wiki, and I'd like to > share it with the interested public on this mailing list. Feel free > to comment and discuss. There will be some more feature descriptions > in the near future, and the ones I have begun will hopefully be fleshed > out more fully by their respective owners. > > Matthias > > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeaturePulseaudio > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeaturePolicyKit > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureBigboard > > From romal at gmx.de Tue May 8 15:32:56 2007 From: romal at gmx.de (Robert M. Albrecht) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 17:32:56 +0200 Subject: Plans for the desktop beyond Fedora 7 In-Reply-To: <1178628451.3490.32.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> References: <1178558896.9714.20.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <46401C58.8060806@gmx.de> <1178628451.3490.32.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <46409828.8060603@gmx.de> Hi, >> - enable Gnomes NFS browsing (network places), in F7 only smb-browsing >> seems to be enabled. Gnomes user manual shows screenshots and descriptions of browsing the network places "Windows computers" and "Unix computers". I only see Windows computers. I tried to fiddle around in gnome-vfs config-files, ... but I never got nfs-browsing to work. Fedora- and gnome-users mailinglists, could help either. Perhaps it`s broken in gnome, perhaps some module is missing, perhaps it's some misconfiguration. I simply don't know. Does it work on your machine ? >> - enable more than three mouse-buttons Mainly Firefox. Firefox does use the additonal buttons for backward and forward. This first appeared in MSIE, Firefox cloned it. It works out of the box in Fedora, if you enable the buttons in xorg.conf. >> - enhancing the gui for extended keyboards Most keyboards and laptop do have extra keys fort starting applications or changing the speaker-volume. Getting them to work is, in my opinion, non-obvious and sure to complicated to an average user. cu romal From bnocera at redhat.com Tue May 8 16:18:54 2007 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 17:18:54 +0100 Subject: Plans for the desktop beyond Fedora 7 In-Reply-To: <46409828.8060603@gmx.de> References: <1178558896.9714.20.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <46401C58.8060806@gmx.de> <1178628451.3490.32.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <46409828.8060603@gmx.de> Message-ID: <1178641134.31098.62.camel@cookie.hadess.net> On Tue, 2007-05-08 at 17:32 +0200, Robert M. Albrecht wrote: > Hi, > > >> - enable Gnomes NFS browsing (network places), in F7 only smb-browsing > >> seems to be enabled. > > Gnomes user manual shows screenshots and descriptions of browsing the > network places "Windows computers" and "Unix computers". > > I only see Windows computers. I tried to fiddle around in gnome-vfs > config-files, ... but I never got nfs-browsing to work. That's because the module isn't built by default, because the person that wrote it knows that it contains data corruption bugs. It's broken, NFS is broken. > >> - enhancing the gui for extended keyboards > > Most keyboards and laptop do have extra keys fort starting applications > or changing the speaker-volume. > > Getting them to work is, in my opinion, non-obvious and sure to > complicated to an average user. Go to the keyboard shortcuts, assign keys, it works. And if it doesn't, it's a bug somewhere, and you should file a bug. Not sure what's complicated about it (although, when the keyboard is detectable, and a keymap exists, it would be nice if it selected the keymap automatically...) From mclasen at redhat.com Tue May 8 17:19:51 2007 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 13:19:51 -0400 Subject: Plans for the desktop beyond Fedora 7 In-Reply-To: <46409828.8060603@gmx.de> References: <1178558896.9714.20.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <46401C58.8060806@gmx.de> <1178628451.3490.32.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <46409828.8060603@gmx.de> Message-ID: <1178644791.3490.39.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> On Tue, 2007-05-08 at 17:32 +0200, Robert M. Albrecht wrote: > > >> - enhancing the gui for extended keyboards > > Most keyboards and laptop do have extra keys fort starting applications > or changing the speaker-volume. > > Getting them to work is, in my opinion, non-obvious and sure to > complicated to an average user. > 100% agreed. However, additional gui is not necessary the right answer for that. There is currently a discussion on the hal mailing list on how to best make those keys work. From ajackson at redhat.com Tue May 8 17:03:42 2007 From: ajackson at redhat.com (Adam Jackson) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 13:03:42 -0400 Subject: Plans for the desktop beyond Fedora 7 In-Reply-To: <1178641134.31098.62.camel@cookie.hadess.net> References: <1178558896.9714.20.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <46401C58.8060806@gmx.de> <1178628451.3490.32.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <46409828.8060603@gmx.de> <1178641134.31098.62.camel@cookie.hadess.net> Message-ID: <1178643822.2672.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2007-05-08 at 17:18 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote: > On Tue, 2007-05-08 at 17:32 +0200, Robert M. Albrecht wrote: > > Hi, > > > > >> - enable Gnomes NFS browsing (network places), in F7 only smb-browsing > > >> seems to be enabled. > > > > Gnomes user manual shows screenshots and descriptions of browsing the > > network places "Windows computers" and "Unix computers". > > > > I only see Windows computers. I tried to fiddle around in gnome-vfs > > config-files, ... but I never got nfs-browsing to work. > > That's because the module isn't built by default, because the person > that wrote it knows that it contains data corruption bugs. It's broken, > NFS is broken. > > > >> - enhancing the gui for extended keyboards > > > > Most keyboards and laptop do have extra keys fort starting applications > > or changing the speaker-volume. > > > > Getting them to work is, in my opinion, non-obvious and sure to > > complicated to an average user. > > Go to the keyboard shortcuts, assign keys, it works. And if it doesn't, > it's a bug somewhere, and you should file a bug. What would be even cooler is "You just pressed a key I don't know about. What do you want it to do?" - ajax From nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net Tue May 8 17:40:19 2007 From: nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net (Nicolas Mailhot) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 19:40:19 +0200 Subject: Plans for the desktop beyond Fedora 7 In-Reply-To: <1178643822.2672.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1178558896.9714.20.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <46401C58.8060806@gmx.de> <1178628451.3490.32.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <46409828.8060603@gmx.de> <1178641134.31098.62.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <1178643822.2672.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1178646019.3099.2.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Le mardi 08 mai 2007 ? 13:03 -0400, Adam Jackson a ?crit : > On Tue, 2007-05-08 at 17:18 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote: > > Go to the keyboard shortcuts, assign keys, it works. And if it doesn't, > > it's a bug somewhere, and you should file a bug. > > What would be even cooler is "You just pressed a key I don't know about. > What do you want it to do?" What would be even cooler is correct handling of those keyboards at the driver level (thanksfully handling of HID devices is being reworked right now http://marc.info/?l=linux-usb-devel&m=117670276527382&w=2 ) -- Nicolas Mailhot -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Ceci est une partie de message num?riquement sign?e URL: From ajackson at redhat.com Tue May 8 17:20:54 2007 From: ajackson at redhat.com (Adam Jackson) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 13:20:54 -0400 Subject: Plans for the desktop beyond Fedora 7 In-Reply-To: <1178646019.3099.2.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> References: <1178558896.9714.20.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <46401C58.8060806@gmx.de> <1178628451.3490.32.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <46409828.8060603@gmx.de> <1178641134.31098.62.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <1178643822.2672.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1178646019.3099.2.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <1178644854.2672.33.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2007-05-08 at 19:40 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > Le mardi 08 mai 2007 ? 13:03 -0400, Adam Jackson a ?crit : > > On Tue, 2007-05-08 at 17:18 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote: > > > > Go to the keyboard shortcuts, assign keys, it works. And if it doesn't, > > > it's a bug somewhere, and you should file a bug. > > > > What would be even cooler is "You just pressed a key I don't know about. > > What do you want it to do?" > > What would be even cooler is correct handling of those keyboards at the > driver level (thanksfully handling of HID devices is being reworked > right now http://marc.info/?l=linux-usb-devel&m=117670276527382&w=2 ) Reactive. Adding new models will always take turnaround, vendors won't agree what keys should send what keysyms, blah blah. I mean, yes, wonderful work, but we still need to fix the enablement path of hardware we've never seen before. "Poke all the weird keys on your keyboard, tell me what they mean, and then click here to submit upstream" sounds like a nice model. - ajax From nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net Tue May 8 18:19:33 2007 From: nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net (Nicolas Mailhot) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 20:19:33 +0200 Subject: Plans for the desktop beyond Fedora 7 In-Reply-To: <1178644854.2672.33.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1178558896.9714.20.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <46401C58.8060806@gmx.de> <1178628451.3490.32.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <46409828.8060603@gmx.de> <1178641134.31098.62.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <1178643822.2672.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1178646019.3099.2.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <1178644854.2672.33.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1178648373.3099.8.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Le mardi 08 mai 2007 ? 13:20 -0400, Adam Jackson a ?crit : > On Tue, 2007-05-08 at 19:40 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > > Le mardi 08 mai 2007 ? 13:03 -0400, Adam Jackson a ?crit : > > > On Tue, 2007-05-08 at 17:18 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote: > > > > > > Go to the keyboard shortcuts, assign keys, it works. And if it doesn't, > > > > it's a bug somewhere, and you should file a bug. > > > > > > What would be even cooler is "You just pressed a key I don't know about. > > > What do you want it to do?" > > > > What would be even cooler is correct handling of those keyboards at the > > driver level (thanksfully handling of HID devices is being reworked > > right now http://marc.info/?l=linux-usb-devel&m=117670276527382&w=2 ) > > Reactive. Adding new models will always take turnaround, vendors won't > agree what keys should send what keysyms, blah blah. It's a lot more standardised than you think, since MS apps rely on standard MM keys. The only reason a lot of stuff does not work now is there was no framework to declare enhanced keys at the kernel level/ > I mean, yes, wonderful work, but we still need to fix the enablement > path of hardware we've never seen before. "Poke all the weird keys on > your keyboard, tell me what they mean, and then click here to submit > upstream" sounds like a nice model. We'll see how stuff works out. Not needing a userspace pile of workarounds would be nice (pretend every mice is a MS one worked better than expose all device-spocific alsa knobs to userspace) -- Nicolas Mailhot -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Ceci est une partie de message num?riquement sign?e URL: From mclasen at redhat.com Tue May 8 19:08:09 2007 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 15:08:09 -0400 Subject: Plans for the desktop beyond Fedora 7 In-Reply-To: <1178558896.9714.20.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> References: <1178558896.9714.20.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1178651289.3490.48.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> Here are two more plans: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureNetworkManager http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureBetterStartup From pemboa at gmail.com Tue May 8 20:31:03 2007 From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 15:31:03 -0500 Subject: Plans for the desktop beyond Fedora 7 In-Reply-To: <46401C58.8060806@gmx.de> References: <1178558896.9714.20.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <46401C58.8060806@gmx.de> Message-ID: <16de708d0705081331p7da4541fk83aa37b9640dd729@mail.gmail.com> On 5/8/07, Robert M. Albrecht wrote: > Hi, > > some things I would love to see improved: > > Network related > > - vpn and dialup integration for network manager > - a gui for pairing with bluetooth devices > - a gui for setting up bluetooth and usb dialup devices (mobile phones) > for connecting to the internet > - a gui for setting up 3g networks (umts, ...) for internet access. This > could be an extension to system-config-network > > Booting > > - faster boot when not connected to a network; many services are > starting really slow, if the network is down > - faster boot times at all > > Security > > - disabling root (like ubuntu), thus forcing the user to work as a > non-root user > - some kind of backup tool, for the whole system or the users profile > and data > - Integration of clamav in Evolution and Thunderbird > - support for encryption of user data ( /home/...) > > Configuration > > - Ubuntu has two software installation tools. One shows the complete > repository, the other is intented for endusers. Listed are only > applications, with a rating, how well it integrates into the used gui, > ... I think this is really cool. Many users are overwhelmed by that many > choices Pirut offers. Perhaps this could simply by a button in Pirut to > suppress libs or > - GUI for adding third party repositories > - GUI for managing raid configurations, Anacondo can to this, but only > at installation time. If you add a hdd after installation, you have to > use mdadm manually. > > GUI > > - enable Gnomes NFS browsing (network places), in F7 only smb-browsing > seems to be enabled. > - enable more than three mouse-buttons > - enhancing the gui for extended keyboards > - a GUI for laptop-related things: laptop-mode, configuration > suspend2ram or suspend2disk, power-management, ... > > cu romal > > > Matthias Clasen schrieb: > > The desktop team has recently started to think about what things we want > > to focus on beyond F7, and what we want to improve in the Fedora 8 > > timeframe. > > > > While there are no very detailed specs and commitments yet, I have put > > together some preliminary information in the wiki, and I'd like to > > share it with the interested public on this mailing list. Feel free > > to comment and discuss. There will be some more feature descriptions > > in the near future, and the ones I have begun will hopefully be fleshed > > out more fully by their respective owners. > > > > Matthias > > > > > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeaturePulseaudio > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeaturePolicyKit > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureBigboard I take it that this is all for Gnome users? -- Fedora Core 6 and proud From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Tue May 8 20:45:10 2007 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 22:45:10 +0200 Subject: Installation of Flash plugin on Fedora 7 test 4 in Firefox Message-ID: <64b14b300705081345l72a1f550me7a30c357b1e9468@mail.gmail.com> I tried installing adobe flash plugin on clean install of Fedora 7 test 4. It failed 2-3 times then I recorded my first video of it failing for bug submission. And here is the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9zI9vpLdgM Should this be reported as a bug? And if yes - where? Is this a Firefox bug? After that I tied once more and it failed again. Then I started recording it again, and then it seceded! Here is the video of it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=666z1sGfEv8 What are other people's experience with installing flash under Fedora 7? It is great that it works as it does in Windows in order to make it easier for new users. Great job Fedora team! Keep it up and just polish these small quirks. Thanks! -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241 Skype: valent.turkovic From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue May 8 20:54:28 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 02:24:28 +0530 Subject: Plans for the desktop beyond Fedora 7 In-Reply-To: <16de708d0705081331p7da4541fk83aa37b9640dd729@mail.gmail.com> References: <1178558896.9714.20.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <46401C58.8060806@gmx.de> <16de708d0705081331p7da4541fk83aa37b9640dd729@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4640E384.2040605@fedoraproject.org> Arthur Pemberton wrote: >> > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeaturePulseaudio >> > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeaturePolicyKit >> > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureBigboard > > > I take it that this is all for Gnome users? The first two features are DE neutral. Next time trim your post. Rahul From bnocera at redhat.com Tue May 8 21:00:36 2007 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 22:00:36 +0100 Subject: Plans for the desktop beyond Fedora 7 In-Reply-To: <1178644791.3490.39.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> References: <1178558896.9714.20.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <46401C58.8060806@gmx.de> <1178628451.3490.32.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <46409828.8060603@gmx.de> <1178644791.3490.39.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1178658036.31098.81.camel@cookie.hadess.net> On Tue, 2007-05-08 at 13:19 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Tue, 2007-05-08 at 17:32 +0200, Robert M. Albrecht wrote: > > > > > >> - enhancing the gui for extended keyboards > > > > Most keyboards and laptop do have extra keys fort starting applications > > or changing the speaker-volume. > > > > Getting them to work is, in my opinion, non-obvious and sure to > > complicated to an average user. > > > > 100% agreed. However, additional gui is not necessary the right answer > for that. There is currently a discussion on the hal mailing list on how > to best make those keys work. Not quite. The keys talked about on the HAL mailing-list don't even show up in X, or at the input layer. They just don't exist at the kernel level. The keys that show up without a keysym at the X level (the ones with 0x... in the control-center capplet) need keymaps, or GTK+ understanding X keycodes. From bnocera at redhat.com Tue May 8 21:26:17 2007 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 22:26:17 +0100 Subject: Plans for the desktop beyond Fedora 7 In-Reply-To: <1178651289.3490.48.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> References: <1178558896.9714.20.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <1178651289.3490.48.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1178659577.31098.88.camel@cookie.hadess.net> On Tue, 2007-05-08 at 15:08 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > Here are two more plans: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureNetworkManager " Configuration interface (est. 4 weeks) * Tambet Ingo has started here. He's 50% done but we need to get 100% done. There's about 3 weeks worth of work here still. " I guess I don't need to have this on my TODO list any more then :) > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureBetterStartup And I saw: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureBootShutdownSpeedup which says: " Do I need to be running a smartcard daemon on a system with no smartcard reader? Do I need a bluetooth service on a system with no bluetooth? " I'm fairly certain I made that same remark (about the Bluetooth stuff) some years ago, and got called a doofus :) That's https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=222312 (and blockers) for the interested people. From caillon at redhat.com Tue May 8 21:40:28 2007 From: caillon at redhat.com (Christopher Aillon) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 17:40:28 -0400 Subject: Plans for the desktop beyond Fedora 7 In-Reply-To: <1178659577.31098.88.camel@cookie.hadess.net> References: <1178558896.9714.20.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <1178651289.3490.48.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <1178659577.31098.88.camel@cookie.hadess.net> Message-ID: <4640EE4C.5000008@redhat.com> Bastien Nocera wrote: > On Tue, 2007-05-08 at 15:08 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: >> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureNetworkManager > > " > Configuration interface (est. 4 weeks) > > * Tambet Ingo has started here. He's 50% done but we need to get > 100% done. There's about 3 weeks worth of work here still. > " > > I guess I don't need to have this on my TODO list any more then :) If you're interested, I'd recommend asking him about helping with this. While Tambet is awesome, I understand that he's not working full time on this and it would probably take him longer than we'd like to get done through no fault of his own. We need this in order to enable it by default for FC8 and we should do what we can to make sure this happens. From mclasen at redhat.com Tue May 8 21:51:54 2007 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 17:51:54 -0400 Subject: Plans for the desktop beyond Fedora 7 In-Reply-To: <1178658036.31098.81.camel@cookie.hadess.net> References: <1178558896.9714.20.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <46401C58.8060806@gmx.de> <1178628451.3490.32.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <46409828.8060603@gmx.de> <1178644791.3490.39.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <1178658036.31098.81.camel@cookie.hadess.net> Message-ID: <1178661114.3006.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2007-05-08 at 22:00 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote: > On Tue, 2007-05-08 at 13:19 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > On Tue, 2007-05-08 at 17:32 +0200, Robert M. Albrecht wrote: > > > > > > > > >> - enhancing the gui for extended keyboards > > > > > > Most keyboards and laptop do have extra keys fort starting applications > > > or changing the speaker-volume. > > > > > > Getting them to work is, in my opinion, non-obvious and sure to > > > complicated to an average user. > > > > > > > 100% agreed. However, additional gui is not necessary the right answer > > for that. There is currently a discussion on the hal mailing list on how > > to best make those keys work. > > Not quite. The keys talked about on the HAL mailing-list don't even show > up in X, or at the input layer. They just don't exist at the kernel > level. For these, I had the crazy idea today that maybe you could have a tool that asks you to press a key, and if no key event is coming forward, parse the dmesg output for the keyboard driver warning... From mclasen at redhat.com Tue May 8 21:52:38 2007 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 17:52:38 -0400 Subject: Plans for the desktop beyond Fedora 7 In-Reply-To: <16de708d0705081331p7da4541fk83aa37b9640dd729@mail.gmail.com> References: <1178558896.9714.20.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <46401C58.8060806@gmx.de> <16de708d0705081331p7da4541fk83aa37b9640dd729@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1178661158.3006.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2007-05-08 at 15:31 -0500, Arthur Pemberton wrote: > > > > > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeaturePulseaudio > > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeaturePolicyKit > > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureBigboard > > > I take it that this is all for Gnome users? > No, this is all for users of the Fedora desktop spin. From mclasen at redhat.com Tue May 8 22:00:41 2007 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 18:00:41 -0400 Subject: Plans for the desktop beyond Fedora 7 In-Reply-To: <1178661158.3006.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1178558896.9714.20.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <46401C58.8060806@gmx.de> <16de708d0705081331p7da4541fk83aa37b9640dd729@mail.gmail.com> <1178661158.3006.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1178661641.3006.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2007-05-08 at 17:52 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Tue, 2007-05-08 at 15:31 -0500, Arthur Pemberton wrote: > > > > > > > > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeaturePulseaudio > > > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeaturePolicyKit > > > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureBigboard > > > > > > I take it that this is all for Gnome users? > > > > No, this is all for users of the Fedora desktop spin. > And I should have added that of course, people who want KDE to become a first class citizen in Fedora are very much invited to participate in the development to ensure that these things work nicely with KDE, too. The best place to become involved in PolicyKit development is the hal mailing list, for pulseaudio and bigboard this mailing list is probably fine. From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue May 8 22:04:14 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 03:34:14 +0530 Subject: Installation of Flash plugin on Fedora 7 test 4 in Firefox In-Reply-To: <64b14b300705081345l72a1f550me7a30c357b1e9468@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300705081345l72a1f550me7a30c357b1e9468@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4640F3DE.6060406@fedoraproject.org> Valent Turkovic wrote: > I tried installing adobe flash plugin on clean install of Fedora 7 > test 4. It failed 2-3 times then I recorded my first video of it > failing for bug submission. And here is the video: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9zI9vpLdgM > > Should this be reported as a bug? And if yes - where? Is this a Firefox > bug? > > After that I tied once more and it failed again. > > Then I started recording it again, and then it seceded! > Here is the video of it: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=666z1sGfEv8 > > What are other people's experience with installing flash under Fedora 7? > > It is great that it works as it does in Windows in order to make it > easier for new users. > > Great job Fedora team! Keep it up and just polish these small quirks. Would you kindly stop cross posting to multiple lists? See the purpose of these lists at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate. Please just use fedora-test list for test issues. If you can reproduce a problem consistently then you should file a bug report. Rahul From pemboa at gmail.com Tue May 8 23:29:57 2007 From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 18:29:57 -0500 Subject: Plans for the desktop beyond Fedora 7 In-Reply-To: <4640E384.2040605@fedoraproject.org> References: <1178558896.9714.20.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <46401C58.8060806@gmx.de> <16de708d0705081331p7da4541fk83aa37b9640dd729@mail.gmail.com> <4640E384.2040605@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <16de708d0705081629s7f68a53bo7377916f1a7cb488@mail.gmail.com> On 5/8/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Arthur Pemberton wrote: > > >> > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeaturePulseaudio > >> > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeaturePolicyKit > >> > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureBigboard > > > > > > I take it that this is all for Gnome users? > > The first two features are DE neutral. Next time trim your post. > > Rahul Sorry, that was laziness on my part. -- Fedora Core 6 and proud From nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net Wed May 9 05:29:36 2007 From: nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net (Nicolas Mailhot) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 07:29:36 +0200 Subject: Plans for the desktop beyond Fedora 7 In-Reply-To: <1178661114.3006.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1178558896.9714.20.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <46401C58.8060806@gmx.de> <1178628451.3490.32.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <46409828.8060603@gmx.de> <1178644791.3490.39.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <1178658036.31098.81.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <1178661114.3006.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1178688576.7187.2.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Le mardi 08 mai 2007 ? 17:51 -0400, Matthias Clasen a ?crit : > For these, I had the crazy idea today that maybe you could have a tool > that asks you to press a key, and if no key event is coming forward, > parse the dmesg output for the keyboard driver warning... You won't get a keyboard warning : most enhanced keys do not generate anything today because they're attached to a different device than the main keyboard, and there's no driver for this device (yet) -- Nicolas Mailhot -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Ceci est une partie de message num?riquement sign?e URL: From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Wed May 9 09:57:49 2007 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 11:57:49 +0200 Subject: Installation of Flash plugin on Fedora 7 test 4 in Firefox In-Reply-To: <4640F3DE.6060406@fedoraproject.org> References: <64b14b300705081345l72a1f550me7a30c357b1e9468@mail.gmail.com> <4640F3DE.6060406@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <64b14b300705090257h39c0add3i589361823b2da706@mail.gmail.com> I had my brain switched off when I posted this, and I was aware of the cross-post the second after I sent it. Sorry - I had a hectic day yesterday and was my brain was on autopilot after that :) On 5/9/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Valent Turkovic wrote: > > I tried installing adobe flash plugin on clean install of Fedora 7 > > test 4. It failed 2-3 times then I recorded my first video of it > > failing for bug submission. And here is the video: > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9zI9vpLdgM > > > > Should this be reported as a bug? And if yes - where? Is this a Firefox > > bug? > > > > After that I tied once more and it failed again. > > > > Then I started recording it again, and then it seceded! > > Here is the video of it: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=666z1sGfEv8 > > > > What are other people's experience with installing flash under Fedora 7? > > > > It is great that it works as it does in Windows in order to make it > > easier for new users. > > > > Great job Fedora team! Keep it up and just polish these small quirks. > > Would you kindly stop cross posting to multiple lists? See the purpose > of these lists at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate. Please just > use fedora-test list for test issues. > > If you can reproduce a problem consistently then you should file a bug > report. > > Rahul > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241 Skype: valent.turkovic From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Wed May 9 10:07:11 2007 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 12:07:11 +0200 Subject: CodecBuddy - how to help? In-Reply-To: <1177109935.32379.111.camel@cookie.hadess.net> References: <64b14b300704201416q43f259f5t666b57707265420@mail.gmail.com> <1177109935.32379.111.camel@cookie.hadess.net> Message-ID: <64b14b300705090307i7bb1f072id08d2fc33784c278@mail.gmail.com> On 4/21/07, Bastien Nocera wrote: > On Fri, 2007-04-20 at 23:16 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > Hi, > > I tried contacting CodecBuddy develoopers but with no luck. I wan't to > > help with testing it and bug hunting but need some pointers how. Can > > anybody tell me how I can get in and help out? > > Who did you contact? How did you want to help? I want to try it out and test it, give feedback and suggestions. How can I test it out? Are the pacgakes available in some repos? Are there RPMs that I can install on Fedora 7 test 4? I can't remember who I contacted, but if I remember correctly I send emails to addresses found on the CodecBuddy project page. Thank you. From mclasen at redhat.com Wed May 9 13:15:47 2007 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 09:15:47 -0400 Subject: Plans for the desktop beyond Fedora 7 In-Reply-To: <1178688576.7187.2.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> References: <1178558896.9714.20.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <46401C58.8060806@gmx.de> <1178628451.3490.32.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <46409828.8060603@gmx.de> <1178644791.3490.39.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <1178658036.31098.81.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <1178661114.3006.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1178688576.7187.2.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <1178716547.3020.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2007-05-09 at 07:29 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > Le mardi 08 mai 2007 ? 17:51 -0400, Matthias Clasen a ?crit : > > > For these, I had the crazy idea today that maybe you could have a tool > > that asks you to press a key, and if no key event is coming forward, > > parse the dmesg output for the keyboard driver warning... > > You won't get a keyboard warning : most enhanced keys do not generate > anything today because they're attached to a different device than the > main keyboard, and there's no driver for this device (yet) > I do get warnings for all of the nonworking keys on this laptop, at least. From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Thu May 10 06:57:11 2007 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 08:57:11 +0200 Subject: F7 test4 - ugly login - or is it me? :) Message-ID: <64b14b300705092357i7de9600cmdaf2c88b5e2686de@mail.gmail.com> Hi, IMHO the GDM theme on Fedora 7 test 3 was much more user-friendly and looked nicer than one I see in Fedora 7 test 4. The theme hasn't changed but the icon for "face browser" had. Not beside user name there is some strange icon with a question mark on the face which looks odious to me. It doesn't look inviting, and doesn't give me the welcome feeling that a login page should be about. And comments? Or is it just me? :) -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241 Skype: valent.turkovic From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Thu May 10 07:06:40 2007 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 10:06:40 +0300 Subject: F7 test4 - ugly login - or is it me? :) In-Reply-To: <64b14b300705092357i7de9600cmdaf2c88b5e2686de@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300705092357i7de9600cmdaf2c88b5e2686de@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4642C480.5020705@nicubunu.ro> Valent Turkovic wrote: > Hi, > IMHO the GDM theme on Fedora 7 test 3 was much more user-friendly and > looked nicer than one I see in Fedora 7 test 4. The theme hasn't > changed but the icon for "face browser" had. Not beside user name > there is some strange icon with a question mark on the face which > looks odious to me. > > It doesn't look inviting, and doesn't give me the welcome feeling that > a login page should be about. > > And comments? Or is it just me? :) Maybe an ugly icon work as an effective invitation for the user to change it to something nicer and personalized? -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu May 10 09:42:19 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 15:12:19 +0530 Subject: F7 test4 - ugly login - or is it me? :) In-Reply-To: <64b14b300705092357i7de9600cmdaf2c88b5e2686de@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300705092357i7de9600cmdaf2c88b5e2686de@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4642E8FB.2070802@fedoraproject.org> Valent Turkovic wrote: > Hi, > IMHO the GDM theme on Fedora 7 test 3 was much more user-friendly and > looked nicer than one I see in Fedora 7 test 4. The theme hasn't > changed but the icon for "face browser" had. Not beside user name > there is some strange icon with a question mark on the face which > looks odious to me. > > It doesn't look inviting, and doesn't give me the welcome feeling that > a login page should be about. > > And comments? Or is it just me? :) Again this question belongs to fedora-test list and is already discussed there. https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=230584 Rahul From marcelo.sales at sefaz.pe.gov.br Thu May 10 13:25:49 2007 From: marcelo.sales at sefaz.pe.gov.br (Marcelo Magno T. Sales) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 10:25:49 -0300 Subject: Plans for the desktop beyond Fedora 7 In-Reply-To: <1178716547.3020.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1178558896.9714.20.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <1178688576.7187.2.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <1178716547.3020.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200705101025.49229.marcelo.sales@sefaz.pe.gov.br> Em Qua 09 Mai 2007, Matthias Clasen escreveu: > On Wed, 2007-05-09 at 07:29 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > > Le mardi 08 mai 2007 ? 17:51 -0400, Matthias Clasen a ?crit : > > > For these, I had the crazy idea today that maybe you could have a tool > > > that asks you to press a key, and if no key event is coming forward, > > > parse the dmesg output for the keyboard driver warning... > > > > You won't get a keyboard warning : most enhanced keys do not generate > > anything today because they're attached to a different device than the > > main keyboard, and there's no driver for this device (yet) > > I do get warnings for all of the nonworking keys on this laptop, at > least. Lucky you :) On mine, none of them are detected by the kernel. []'s Marcelo From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Thu May 10 20:34:36 2007 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 15:34:36 -0500 Subject: Plans for the desktop beyond Fedora 7 In-Reply-To: <1178629315.18226.9.camel@hive> References: <1178558896.9714.20.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <46401C58.8060806@gmx.de> <1178629315.18226.9.camel@hive> Message-ID: <464381DC.2030408@prodigy.net.mx> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Rui Tiago Ca??o Matos escribi?: > On Ter, 2007-05-08 at 08:44 +0200, Robert M. Albrecht wrote: >> Network related >> >> - vpn and dialup integration for network manager - a gui for >> pairing with bluetooth devices - a gui for setting up bluetooth >> and usb dialup devices (mobile phones) for connecting to the >> internet - a gui for setting up 3g networks (umts, ...) for >> internet access. This could be an extension to >> system-config-network > > I'd rather prefer that system-config-network disappeared (at least > as a default) and Network Manager becomes the default network > management system... > > Rui > I wouldn't be so forward for this (yet). NM is good, but not THAT good, and neat/system-config-network is a very mature network configuration system. I've had endless problems with NM, particularly with wireless devices (but mainly due to "roaming" from network to network), and have had a bit of issues configuring seemingly trivial stuff that wouldn't stick. Sure that was some time ago, and things have improved, I'm sure, but for the time being system-config-network hasn't let me down, not even once... If the device is not present or not working at a driver level, it is far easier (IMO) to diagnose that with neat than NM... Or has my experience been. I'll have to give NM a try in F7 final (as F7T4 still has some quirks) and hopefully I'll be able to finally ditch the infamous proprietary wireless tool for my wireless connection, and have the system use the wireless connection and activation of profiles and whatnot directly from NM instead (and no need for root for that either would be nice too). -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGQ4HcXM+XOp70dwoRAkbqAKCW84spD9R8aIWMkRLnOh7QV1bBSACaA8yi FpLc22E1NUJK8ITwuUuyIoA= =oxuA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From skunkworx at verizon.net Fri May 11 11:20:17 2007 From: skunkworx at verizon.net (Skunk Worx) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 04:20:17 -0700 Subject: RFC local modify of gnome-screensaver unlock and or pam Message-ID: <46445171.6060907@verizon.net> Goal: ----- When using gnome-screensaver I would like a simple unlock dialog that prompts for both user name and password. It should not show the current user name. If the (user,password) pair authenticates, the current user desktop is unlocked and the applications are again visible. The unlock (user,password) pair need not be the owner of the desktop. Background: ----------- I am creating an information kiosk. On power-up it does an auto-login and locks the screen with gnome-screensaver-command. Finally it auto-starts a number of graphical system status applications. There exists a set of (user,password) pairs that should be able to unlock the screen and see the currently running applications. After one user authenticates with their (user,password) pair, the user locks the screen with either the menu lock option or the screen will eventually lock due to a screensaver timeout. Another user can then walk up to the kiosk, unlock the screen with their specific (user,password) pair, check the system status, and then leave. This should be logged so I know which user is looking at the system status apps at any given time. The process continues with other (user,password) pairs as necessary. We don't want the users to have a single (user,password) pair. Current Status : ---------------- It looks like Fedora 7 will be the basic platform. I am using FC6 for now. Auto-login, starting the apps, locking and unlocking the screen with the auto-start system (user,password) are all working. However the dialog that pops up to unlock the screen shows the auto-login user name and prompts for a password. So far I have tried adding "user1" and "user2" using the -o option to useradd (giving them the same UID/GID as the auto-start account) and then setting "user_switch_enabled" for gnome-screensaver. Unfortunately this is not enough: 1) Actually switching users only shows "other UID" users in the selection list, not the "sibling UID users". 2) Switching to a "other UID" user creates a new Desktop for the other UID, which is as expected, but not desired. Useful for testing though. 3) Switching users again from an "other UID" shows all the "sibling UID" accounts in the list. Selecting one of the "sibling UID" users (but not the auto-login user) gets to the auto-login desktop configuration, but without the auto-started applications visible. It appears I will have to modify the gnome-screensaver-dialog and possibly pam to get this to work. I have looked at the g-s src rpm plugin code and have considered a few mods but haven't tried anything yet. Before continuing I thought I would ask here for advice, comments or suggestions. Thanks, John From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Fri May 11 11:54:42 2007 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 13:54:42 +0200 Subject: CodecBuddy - how to help? In-Reply-To: <1177109935.32379.111.camel@cookie.hadess.net> References: <64b14b300704201416q43f259f5t666b57707265420@mail.gmail.com> <1177109935.32379.111.camel@cookie.hadess.net> Message-ID: <64b14b300705110454v7c95898cue6e9d3b8ef4829d2@mail.gmail.com> On 4/21/07, Bastien Nocera wrote: > On Fri, 2007-04-20 at 23:16 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > Hi, > > I tried contacting CodecBuddy develoopers but with no luck. I wan't to > > help with testing it and bug hunting but need some pointers how. Can > > anybody tell me how I can get in and help out? > > Who did you contact? How did you want to help? I found the email. I sent it on 17th of April to: gdk at fedoraproject.org, mspevack at redhat.com with no reply. > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241 Skype: valent.turkovic From bnocera at redhat.com Fri May 11 12:14:09 2007 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 13:14:09 +0100 Subject: RFC local modify of gnome-screensaver unlock and or pam In-Reply-To: <46445171.6060907@verizon.net> References: <46445171.6060907@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1178885649.31098.162.camel@cookie.hadess.net> On Fri, 2007-05-11 at 04:20 -0700, Skunk Worx wrote: > Goal: > ----- > When using gnome-screensaver I would like a simple unlock dialog that > prompts for both user name and password. It should not show the current > user name. If the (user,password) pair authenticates, the current user > desktop is unlocked and the applications are again visible. The unlock > (user,password) pair need not be the owner of the desktop. Sounds like you should be using F7 as your starting point, with Fast User Switching enabled. From bnocera at redhat.com Fri May 11 13:30:59 2007 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 14:30:59 +0100 Subject: CodecBuddy - how to help? In-Reply-To: <64b14b300705110454v7c95898cue6e9d3b8ef4829d2@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300704201416q43f259f5t666b57707265420@mail.gmail.com> <1177109935.32379.111.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <64b14b300705110454v7c95898cue6e9d3b8ef4829d2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1178890259.31098.167.camel@cookie.hadess.net> On Fri, 2007-05-11 at 13:54 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote: > On 4/21/07, Bastien Nocera wrote: > > On Fri, 2007-04-20 at 23:16 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > > Hi, > > > I tried contacting CodecBuddy develoopers but with no luck. I wan't to > > > help with testing it and bug hunting but need some pointers how. Can > > > anybody tell me how I can get in and help out? > > > > Who did you contact? How did you want to help? > > I found the email. I sent it on 17th of April to: > gdk at fedoraproject.org, > mspevack at redhat.com > > with no reply. Right. They're not the ones developing the application, so they probably wouldn't know how/where to get it. See details in my other mail. From bnocera at redhat.com Fri May 11 13:33:26 2007 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 14:33:26 +0100 Subject: CodecBuddy - how to help? In-Reply-To: <64b14b300705090307i7bb1f072id08d2fc33784c278@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300704201416q43f259f5t666b57707265420@mail.gmail.com> <1177109935.32379.111.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <64b14b300705090307i7bb1f072id08d2fc33784c278@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1178890406.31098.171.camel@cookie.hadess.net> On Wed, 2007-05-09 at 12:07 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote: > On 4/21/07, Bastien Nocera wrote: > > On Fri, 2007-04-20 at 23:16 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > > Hi, > > > I tried contacting CodecBuddy develoopers but with no luck. I wan't to > > > help with testing it and bug hunting but need some pointers how. Can > > > anybody tell me how I can get in and help out? > > > > Who did you contact? How did you want to help? > > I want to try it out and test it, give feedback and suggestions. > > How can I test it out? Are the pacgakes available in some repos? Are > there RPMs that I can install on Fedora 7 test 4? Thomas uploaded some packages at: http://thomas.apestaart.org/download/pkg/ Although they might be slightly outdated. The details for the codeina SVN repository is on the Codec Buddy page on the Fedora wiki. > I can't remember who I contacted, but if I remember correctly I send > emails to addresses found on the CodecBuddy project page. Feel free to send your remarks/comments to this list. Cheers From kanarip at kanarip.com Sat May 12 03:45:46 2007 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 05:45:46 +0200 Subject: Plans for the desktop beyond Fedora 7 In-Reply-To: <1178651289.3490.48.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> References: <1178558896.9714.20.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <1178651289.3490.48.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <4645386A.5000809@kanarip.com> Matthias Clasen wrote: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureNetworkManager > I'm working on a script framework for NetworkManagerDispatcher, allowing the user to configure a network environment using some characteristics. When connecting to that network environment, actions that the user configures are taken. I'm thinking of authconfig, firewall settings, NFS file sharing, ... and maybe anything else. -kanarip From kanarip at kanarip.com Sat May 12 03:52:55 2007 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 05:52:55 +0200 Subject: Plans for the desktop beyond Fedora 7 In-Reply-To: <1178651289.3490.48.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> References: <1178558896.9714.20.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <1178651289.3490.48.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <46453A17.20704@kanarip.com> Matthias Clasen wrote: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureNetworkManager > Now that I'm reading the page a little closer, I see that NetworkManager should also work on servers. I'm not sure I understand the rationale behind this. Does anyone care to elaborate? -kanarip From drago01 at gmail.com Sat May 12 08:43:40 2007 From: drago01 at gmail.com (dragoran) Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 10:43:40 +0200 Subject: Plans for the desktop beyond Fedora 7 In-Reply-To: <200705101025.49229.marcelo.sales@sefaz.pe.gov.br> References: <1178558896.9714.20.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <1178688576.7187.2.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <1178716547.3020.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200705101025.49229.marcelo.sales@sefaz.pe.gov.br> Message-ID: <46457E3C.2060903@gmail.com> Marcelo Magno T. Sales wrote: > Em Qua 09 Mai 2007, Matthias Clasen escreveu: > >> On Wed, 2007-05-09 at 07:29 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: >> >>> Le mardi 08 mai 2007 ? 17:51 -0400, Matthias Clasen a ?crit : >>> >>>> For these, I had the crazy idea today that maybe you could have a tool >>>> that asks you to press a key, and if no key event is coming forward, >>>> parse the dmesg output for the keyboard driver warning... >>>> >>> You won't get a keyboard warning : most enhanced keys do not generate >>> anything today because they're attached to a different device than the >>> main keyboard, and there's no driver for this device (yet) >>> >> I do get warnings for all of the nonworking keys on this laptop, at >> least. >> > > Lucky you :) On mine, none of them are detected by the kernel. > > I also get this kind of warings: atkbd.c: Unknown key pressed (translated set 2, code 0xd8 on isa0060/serio0). atkbd.c: Use 'setkeycodes e058 ' to make it known. atkbd.c: Unknown key released (translated set 2, code 0xd8 on isa0060/serio0). atkbd.c: Use 'setkeycodes e058 ' to make it known. From jkeating at redhat.com Sat May 12 10:55:06 2007 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 03:55:06 -0700 Subject: Plans for the desktop beyond Fedora 7 In-Reply-To: <46453A17.20704@kanarip.com> References: <1178558896.9714.20.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <1178651289.3490.48.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <46453A17.20704@kanarip.com> Message-ID: <200705120355.06896.jkeating@redhat.com> On Friday 11 May 2007 20:52:55 Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > Now that I'm reading the page a little closer, I see that NetworkManager > should also work on servers. I'm not sure I understand the rationale > behind this. Does anyone care to elaborate? If we're going to move toward NetworkManager everywhere (which we really should, multiple config stacks == bad), NM needs to work well in a server env, static IPs, brought up without login, various other server related needs. -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kanarip at kanarip.com Sat May 12 16:00:44 2007 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 18:00:44 +0200 Subject: Plans for the desktop beyond Fedora 7 In-Reply-To: <200705120355.06896.jkeating@redhat.com> References: <1178558896.9714.20.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <1178651289.3490.48.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <46453A17.20704@kanarip.com> <200705120355.06896.jkeating@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4645E4AC.7010205@kanarip.com> Jesse Keating wrote: > On Friday 11 May 2007 20:52:55 Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: >> Now that I'm reading the page a little closer, I see that NetworkManager >> should also work on servers. I'm not sure I understand the rationale >> behind this. Does anyone care to elaborate? > > If we're going to move toward NetworkManager everywhere (which we really > should, multiple config stacks == bad), NM needs to work well in a server > env, static IPs, brought up without login, various other server related > needs. > So the obvious question would be; Are we going to move toward NetworkManager? I agree that having multiple config stacks is bad, but the problem here is choice (where did I hear that before?). As long as we're not forcing the user / system admin to choose between s-c-n/NM, and/or service network vs. NM, you'll have multiple config stacks. The problem may not be solved by enabling upstream NM to take over s-c-n functionality and stability and just force the use of NM over s-c-n, rather then just letting (forcing) someone choose between the two configuration systems, right? -kanarip From jkeating at redhat.com Mon May 14 15:30:58 2007 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 11:30:58 -0400 Subject: Plans for the desktop beyond Fedora 7 In-Reply-To: <4645E4AC.7010205@kanarip.com> References: <1178558896.9714.20.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <200705120355.06896.jkeating@redhat.com> <4645E4AC.7010205@kanarip.com> Message-ID: <200705141130.58945.jkeating@redhat.com> On Saturday 12 May 2007 12:00:44 Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > So the obvious question would be; Are we going to move toward > NetworkManager? > > I agree that having multiple config stacks is bad, but the problem here > is choice (where did I hear that before?). As long as we're not forcing > the user / system admin to choose between s-c-n/NM, and/or service > network vs. NM, you'll have multiple config stacks. The problem may not > be solved by enabling upstream NM to take over s-c-n functionality and > stability and just force the use of NM over s-c-n, rather then just > letting (forcing) someone choose between the two configuration systems, > right? I personally don't have an answer for this. -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ajackson at redhat.com Mon May 14 15:55:19 2007 From: ajackson at redhat.com (Adam Jackson) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 11:55:19 -0400 Subject: Plans for the desktop beyond Fedora 7 In-Reply-To: <200705120355.06896.jkeating@redhat.com> References: <1178558896.9714.20.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <1178651289.3490.48.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <46453A17.20704@kanarip.com> <200705120355.06896.jkeating@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1179158119.24664.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2007-05-12 at 03:55 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Friday 11 May 2007 20:52:55 Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > > Now that I'm reading the page a little closer, I see that NetworkManager > > should also work on servers. I'm not sure I understand the rationale > > behind this. Does anyone care to elaborate? > > If we're going to move toward NetworkManager everywhere (which we really > should, multiple config stacks == bad), NM needs to work well in a server > env, static IPs, brought up without login, various other server related > needs. No one is going to put any testing effort into this unless we enable NM by default. - ajax From marcelo.sales at sefaz.pe.gov.br Mon May 14 16:07:29 2007 From: marcelo.sales at sefaz.pe.gov.br (Marcelo Magno T. Sales) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 13:07:29 -0300 Subject: Plans for the desktop beyond Fedora 7 In-Reply-To: <46457E3C.2060903@gmail.com> References: <1178558896.9714.20.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <200705101025.49229.marcelo.sales@sefaz.pe.gov.br> <46457E3C.2060903@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200705141307.29510.marcelo.sales@sefaz.pe.gov.br> Em S?b 12 Mai 2007, dragoran escreveu: > Marcelo Magno T. Sales wrote: > > Em Qua 09 Mai 2007, Matthias Clasen escreveu: > >> On Wed, 2007-05-09 at 07:29 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > >>> Le mardi 08 mai 2007 ? 17:51 -0400, Matthias Clasen a ?crit : > >>>> For these, I had the crazy idea today that maybe you could have a tool > >>>> that asks you to press a key, and if no key event is coming forward, > >>>> parse the dmesg output for the keyboard driver warning... > >>> > >>> You won't get a keyboard warning : most enhanced keys do not generate > >>> anything today because they're attached to a different device than the > >>> main keyboard, and there's no driver for this device (yet) > >> > >> I do get warnings for all of the nonworking keys on this laptop, at > >> least. > > > > Lucky you :) On mine, none of them are detected by the kernel. > > I also get this kind of warings: > atkbd.c: Unknown key pressed (translated set 2, code 0xd8 on > isa0060/serio0). > atkbd.c: Use 'setkeycodes e058 ' to make it known. > atkbd.c: Unknown key released (translated set 2, code 0xd8 on > isa0060/serio0). > atkbd.c: Use 'setkeycodes e058 ' to make it known. These are easier to solve. Use the setkeycodes command to map ths scancodes listed to unused keycodes. Then you'll be able to use these keys even in X and map shortcuts to them. You may add the setkeycodes lines in /etc/rc.d/rc.local so that they are always executed when you boot. []'s Marcelo From bnocera at redhat.com Mon May 14 17:07:03 2007 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 18:07:03 +0100 Subject: Plans for the desktop beyond Fedora 7 In-Reply-To: <200705141307.29510.marcelo.sales@sefaz.pe.gov.br> References: <1178558896.9714.20.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <200705101025.49229.marcelo.sales@sefaz.pe.gov.br> <46457E3C.2060903@gmail.com> <200705141307.29510.marcelo.sales@sefaz.pe.gov.br> Message-ID: <1179162423.12523.62.camel@cookie.hadess.net> On Mon, 2007-05-14 at 13:07 -0300, Marcelo Magno T. Sales wrote: > Em S?b 12 Mai 2007, dragoran escreveu: > > I also get this kind of warings: > > atkbd.c: Unknown key pressed (translated set 2, code 0xd8 on > > isa0060/serio0). > > atkbd.c: Use 'setkeycodes e058 ' to make it known. > > atkbd.c: Unknown key released (translated set 2, code 0xd8 on > > isa0060/serio0). > > atkbd.c: Use 'setkeycodes e058 ' to make it known. > > These are easier to solve. Use the setkeycodes command to map ths scancodes > listed to unused keycodes. Then you'll be able to use these keys even in X > and map shortcuts to them. > You may add the setkeycodes lines in /etc/rc.d/rc.local so that they are > always executed when you boot. This is exactly what we're trying to fix in a current discussion on the HAL list. See: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.freedesktop.hal/8257 From drago01 at gmail.com Mon May 14 17:14:07 2007 From: drago01 at gmail.com (dragoran) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 19:14:07 +0200 Subject: Plans for the desktop beyond Fedora 7 In-Reply-To: <200705141307.29510.marcelo.sales@sefaz.pe.gov.br> References: <1178558896.9714.20.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <200705101025.49229.marcelo.sales@sefaz.pe.gov.br> <46457E3C.2060903@gmail.com> <200705141307.29510.marcelo.sales@sefaz.pe.gov.br> Message-ID: <464898DF.2020800@gmail.com> Marcelo Magno T. Sales wrote: > Em S?b 12 Mai 2007, dragoran escreveu: > >> Marcelo Magno T. Sales wrote: >> >>> Em Qua 09 Mai 2007, Matthias Clasen escreveu: >>> >>>> On Wed, 2007-05-09 at 07:29 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: >>>> >>>>> Le mardi 08 mai 2007 ? 17:51 -0400, Matthias Clasen a ?crit : >>>>> >>>>>> For these, I had the crazy idea today that maybe you could have a tool >>>>>> that asks you to press a key, and if no key event is coming forward, >>>>>> parse the dmesg output for the keyboard driver warning... >>>>>> >>>>> You won't get a keyboard warning : most enhanced keys do not generate >>>>> anything today because they're attached to a different device than the >>>>> main keyboard, and there's no driver for this device (yet) >>>>> >>>> I do get warnings for all of the nonworking keys on this laptop, at >>>> least. >>>> >>> Lucky you :) On mine, none of them are detected by the kernel. >>> >> I also get this kind of warings: >> atkbd.c: Unknown key pressed (translated set 2, code 0xd8 on >> isa0060/serio0). >> atkbd.c: Use 'setkeycodes e058 ' to make it known. >> atkbd.c: Unknown key released (translated set 2, code 0xd8 on >> isa0060/serio0). >> atkbd.c: Use 'setkeycodes e058 ' to make it known. >> > > These are easier to solve. Use the setkeycodes command to map ths scancodes > listed to unused keycodes. Then you'll be able to use these keys even in X > and map shortcuts to them. > You may add the setkeycodes lines in /etc/rc.d/rc.local so that they are > always executed when you boot. > > thats what I do now ;) but I don't think this is a user friendly way .... From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Tue May 15 09:36:11 2007 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 11:36:11 +0200 Subject: Fedora 8 - more user friendly updates? Message-ID: <64b14b300705150236i6cc22513y7483a25f9e70e302@mail.gmail.com> Hi, I posted this as a bug - if I should post this somewhere else please tell me where. https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=240110 I find Fedora 6/7 update system not so user friendly as other linux desktops I tested. Ubuntu and OpenSuse ask during the first update if you would like to add the current user to privileged user list. All users on this list don't need to type root password every time they do an update. One thing I found really exceptional was Ubuntu's granual update. You can choose what types of updates you wan't the system to inform you of - only security updates, system updates (desktop and related programs) or all updates (all installed packages). Is there any plan for Fedora 8 to be more user friendly in this regard? I love Fedora Desktop more that any other linux desktop and just would like to see it adopt the great ideas that others have already implemented and then suprise them with some new features that other destops don't have. Thank you. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241 Skype: valent.turkovic From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Tue May 15 11:39:45 2007 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 13:39:45 +0200 Subject: fedora 6/7 - why do you ignore k3b by default? Message-ID: <64b14b300705150439s25e5738dqa61b9a28fed56ed3@mail.gmail.com> Why isn't the best burning software on by default on new fedora 6/7 installations? Is there some particular reason? I see k3b as the best cd/dvd burning app and it should be installed by default IMHO. Also when it is installed by hand it still doesn't play well on Fedora 6/7 desktops. I posted a bug for it: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=240097 Can you please give a bit more of much needed attention to k3b? Thank you very much. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241 Skype: valent.turkovic From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Tue May 15 12:25:03 2007 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 15:25:03 +0300 Subject: fedora 6/7 - why do you ignore k3b by default? In-Reply-To: <64b14b300705150439s25e5738dqa61b9a28fed56ed3@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300705150439s25e5738dqa61b9a28fed56ed3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4649A69F.8000302@nicubunu.ro> Valent Turkovic wrote: > Why isn't the best burning software on by default on new fedora 6/7 > installations? > > Is there some particular reason? I see k3b as the best cd/dvd burning > app and it should be installed by default IMHO. I see this form the opposite direction: I would like to drop K3B for good for my personal use, as it is *the only* desktop application I have using *the other* toolkit (and it does not integrate well with the rest of the desktop, is very slow to start etc.). note: my main usage scenario in using K3B is to write multisession disks, feature not available in nautilus-burn. In some case the default choice in the Fedora desktop is the easiest to use and/or the most integrated solution, this is why Nautilus-burn is the recommended way to burn disks and on the same thinking, a gtk Bittorent client is preferred to Azureus (and I agree here, with a strong personal liking for Transmission and maybe Deluge). Of course, the rule is not always true, as Firefox is preferred to Epiphany, and examples can continue on both sides. > Also when it is installed by hand it still doesn't play well on Fedora > 6/7 desktops. > I posted a bug for it: > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=240097 > > Can you please give a bit more of much needed attention to k3b? -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From cibertazzi at netsite.com.br Tue May 15 13:31:48 2007 From: cibertazzi at netsite.com.br (cibertazzi) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 10:31:48 -0300 Subject: Hi fedora users Message-ID: <017001c796f5$64447370$cd00a8c0@engenharia> I was install Fedora Core 6 in my desktop ,and everything ok ,but in uptodate my fedora in new boot not work ,how can I do about this? anybody know? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Tue May 15 19:38:36 2007 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 14:38:36 -0500 Subject: fedora 6/7 - why do you ignore k3b by default? In-Reply-To: <64b14b300705150439s25e5738dqa61b9a28fed56ed3@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300705150439s25e5738dqa61b9a28fed56ed3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <464A0C3C.3020804@prodigy.net.mx> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Valent Turkovic escribi?: > Why isn't the best burning software on by default on new fedora 6/7 > installations? > > Is there some particular reason? I see k3b as the best cd/dvd burning > app and it should be installed by default IMHO. > > Also when it is installed by hand it still doesn't play well on Fedora > 6/7 desktops. > I posted a bug for it: > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=240097 > > Can you please give a bit more of much needed attention to k3b? > > Thank you very much. > I would assume that the main reason not to include it, is that it requires a hefty amount of KDE packages (almost a small installation of the bulk of KDE) to run. It requires KDE-base, KDE-multimedia (not to mention QT) and maybe I'm skipping a few others. Sure, it is a good program, and by all means it should be on by default in every Fedora KDE installation. If you don't mind cross DE programs, you can also install it if you are using GNOME, XFCE, Fluxbox or whatever other DE you want (which is what I do, anyway). Bottom line is that K3B is more of an option than a requirement. For those GNOME users, there're alternatives like Gnome Baker (successor of the old gToaster, which at the time was THE best CD burning front end for Linux) or the already mentioned nautilus-burn. Sure, K3B is great, but it should be part or not of the default installation whether you'll be installing KDE or not, not on by default, at least that's my opinion. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGSgw8XM+XOp70dwoRArkjAJ9JHpD9A0o1G6BbcP7UFA28KyHg3wCgheQa zE+6svnhZW+l3JyCXHbqfrw= =KoCY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue May 15 19:44:53 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 01:14:53 +0530 Subject: fedora 6/7 - why do you ignore k3b by default? In-Reply-To: <64b14b300705150439s25e5738dqa61b9a28fed56ed3@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300705150439s25e5738dqa61b9a28fed56ed3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <464A0DB5.4060209@fedoraproject.org> Valent Turkovic wrote: > Why isn't the best burning software on by default on new fedora 6/7 > installations? Best is certainly subjective. If I a GNOME user I certainly don't want a whole bunch of KDE packages to have K3b installed. If I just want to burn some files quickly nautilus cd burning is more suitable. For other purposes there are programs like Brasero. > > Is there some particular reason? I see k3b as the best cd/dvd burning > app and it should be installed by default IMHO. Installed by default in where? The GNOME based live images wouldn't have enough space. KDE based live images already have them. If you choose KDE in "Fedora" spin you get k3b by default too. > Also when it is installed by hand it still doesn't play well on Fedora > 6/7 desktops. > I posted a bug for it: > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=240097 > > Can you please give a bit more of much needed attention to k3b? Merge will get such programs more maintainers hopefully. Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue May 15 19:49:32 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 01:19:32 +0530 Subject: Hi fedora users In-Reply-To: <017001c796f5$64447370$cd00a8c0@engenharia> References: <017001c796f5$64447370$cd00a8c0@engenharia> Message-ID: <464A0ECC.70203@fedoraproject.org> cibertazzi wrote: > I was install Fedora Core 6 in my desktop ,and everything ok ,but in > uptodate my fedora in new boot not work ,how can I do about this? > anybody know? This is a list for desktop development. Post to fedora-list or fedoraforum.org for end user questions. Be as specific as you and provide more details when you post. Version numbers, what updates, what exactly doesn't work etc. Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue May 15 19:50:23 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 01:20:23 +0530 Subject: Fedora 8 - more user friendly updates? In-Reply-To: <64b14b300705150236i6cc22513y7483a25f9e70e302@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300705150236i6cc22513y7483a25f9e70e302@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <464A0EFF.3020602@fedoraproject.org> Valent Turkovic wrote: > Hi, I posted this as a bug - if I should post this somewhere else > please tell me where. > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=240110 > > I find Fedora 6/7 update system not so user friendly as other linux > desktops I tested. Ubuntu and OpenSuse ask during the first update if > you would like to add the current user to privileged user list. All > users on this list don't need to type root password every time they do > an update. This I believe is planned for Fedora 8 but simply setting up sudo doesn't solve all the issues. See the policy kit integration spec in http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/8/FeatureList > One thing I found really exceptional was Ubuntu's granual update. You > can choose what types of updates you wan't the system to inform you of > - only security updates, system updates (desktop and related programs) > or all updates (all installed packages). > > Is there any plan for Fedora 8 to be more user friendly in this > regard? I love Fedora Desktop more that any other linux desktop and > just would like to see it adopt the great ideas that others have > already implemented and then suprise them with some new features that > other destops don't have. Fedora repositories already the necessary metadata in the repository that classified updates in security, bug fixes or enhancements. This is extensible. Pup used to display them till it ran into some hiccups and was diabled temporarily. There is a yum security plugin recently added to yum-utils which lets you install only security updates for example. For other things file RFE's against pirut in http://bugzilla.redhat.com Rahul From katzj at redhat.com Tue May 15 20:02:13 2007 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 16:02:13 -0400 Subject: Fedora 8 - more user friendly updates? In-Reply-To: <464A0EFF.3020602@fedoraproject.org> References: <64b14b300705150236i6cc22513y7483a25f9e70e302@mail.gmail.com> <464A0EFF.3020602@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1179259334.29594.42.camel@erebor.boston.redhat.com> On Wed, 2007-05-16 at 01:20 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Valent Turkovic wrote: > > One thing I found really exceptional was Ubuntu's granual update. You > > can choose what types of updates you wan't the system to inform you of > > - only security updates, system updates (desktop and related programs) > > or all updates (all installed packages). > > > > Is there any plan for Fedora 8 to be more user friendly in this > > regard? I love Fedora Desktop more that any other linux desktop and > > just would like to see it adopt the great ideas that others have > > already implemented and then suprise them with some new features that > > other destops don't have. > > Fedora repositories already the necessary metadata in the repository > that classified updates in security, bug fixes or enhancements. This is > extensible. Pup used to display them till it ran into some hiccups and > was diabled temporarily. Everything should already be displayed; the only thing that was ever disabled was clicking on links within advisories Jeremy From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue May 15 20:08:14 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 01:38:14 +0530 Subject: Fedora 8 - more user friendly updates? In-Reply-To: <1179259334.29594.42.camel@erebor.boston.redhat.com> References: <64b14b300705150236i6cc22513y7483a25f9e70e302@mail.gmail.com> <464A0EFF.3020602@fedoraproject.org> <1179259334.29594.42.camel@erebor.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <464A132E.6080806@fedoraproject.org> Jeremy Katz wrote: > On Wed, 2007-05-16 at 01:20 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> Valent Turkovic wrote: >>> One thing I found really exceptional was Ubuntu's granual update. You >>> can choose what types of updates you wan't the system to inform you of >>> - only security updates, system updates (desktop and related programs) >>> or all updates (all installed packages). >>> >>> Is there any plan for Fedora 8 to be more user friendly in this >>> regard? I love Fedora Desktop more that any other linux desktop and >>> just would like to see it adopt the great ideas that others have >>> already implemented and then suprise them with some new features that >>> other destops don't have. >> Fedora repositories already the necessary metadata in the repository >> that classified updates in security, bug fixes or enhancements. This is >> extensible. Pup used to display them till it ran into some hiccups and >> was diabled temporarily. > > Everything should already be displayed; the only thing that was ever > disabled was clicking on links within advisories That was because it launched the web browser as root. Right? Was that ever fixed or did you have any ideas? Rahul From pemboa at gmail.com Tue May 15 23:40:39 2007 From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 19:40:39 -0400 Subject: Fedora 8 - more user friendly updates? In-Reply-To: References: <64b14b300705150236i6cc22513y7483a25f9e70e302@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <16de708d0705151640o3b84a479xa62deec3ee274c5e@mail.gmail.com> > When you use yum, you can use this yum plugin to only install security > updates. This works for Core Packages in FC6 and all in F7. Isn't moving so many, apparently useful features into non default plugins diluting the apparent effectiveness of yum? -- Fedora Core 6 and proud From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue May 15 23:42:01 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 05:12:01 +0530 Subject: Fedora 8 - more user friendly updates? In-Reply-To: <16de708d0705151640o3b84a479xa62deec3ee274c5e@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300705150236i6cc22513y7483a25f9e70e302@mail.gmail.com> <16de708d0705151640o3b84a479xa62deec3ee274c5e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <464A4549.2030000@fedoraproject.org> Arthur Pemberton wrote: >> When you use yum, you can use this yum plugin to only install security >> updates. This works for Core Packages in FC6 and all in F7. > > > Isn't moving so many, apparently useful features into non default > plugins diluting the apparent effectiveness of yum? Not moving. Adding. Rahul From pemboa at gmail.com Tue May 15 23:50:48 2007 From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 19:50:48 -0400 Subject: Fedora 8 - more user friendly updates? In-Reply-To: <464A4549.2030000@fedoraproject.org> References: <64b14b300705150236i6cc22513y7483a25f9e70e302@mail.gmail.com> <16de708d0705151640o3b84a479xa62deec3ee274c5e@mail.gmail.com> <464A4549.2030000@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <16de708d0705151650n7084f658gc95a6c5dfbbd152a@mail.gmail.com> On 5/15/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Arthur Pemberton wrote: > >> When you use yum, you can use this yum plugin to only install security > >> updates. This works for Core Packages in FC6 and all in F7. > > > > > > Isn't moving so many, apparently useful features into non default > > plugins diluting the apparent effectiveness of yum? > > Not moving. Adding. Thanks for the correction, but my question still stands. -- Fedora Core 6 and proud From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue May 15 23:54:59 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 05:24:59 +0530 Subject: Fedora 8 - more user friendly updates? In-Reply-To: <16de708d0705151650n7084f658gc95a6c5dfbbd152a@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300705150236i6cc22513y7483a25f9e70e302@mail.gmail.com> <16de708d0705151640o3b84a479xa62deec3ee274c5e@mail.gmail.com> <464A4549.2030000@fedoraproject.org> <16de708d0705151650n7084f658gc95a6c5dfbbd152a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <464A4853.8000204@fedoraproject.org> Arthur Pemberton wrote: > On 5/15/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> Arthur Pemberton wrote: >> >> When you use yum, you can use this yum plugin to only install security >> >> updates. This works for Core Packages in FC6 and all in F7. >> > >> > >> > Isn't moving so many, apparently useful features into non default >> > plugins diluting the apparent effectiveness of yum? >> >> Not moving. Adding. > > > Thanks for the correction, but my question still stands. No. It doesn't. Adding new features as plugins cannot possibly dilute the effectiveness of yum. Removing features might but that depends on the feature. For example, earlier versions of yum had a feature that displays rss feeds that got moved into a separate utility. Rahul From pemboa at gmail.com Wed May 16 00:13:45 2007 From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 20:13:45 -0400 Subject: Fedora 8 - more user friendly updates? In-Reply-To: <464A4853.8000204@fedoraproject.org> References: <64b14b300705150236i6cc22513y7483a25f9e70e302@mail.gmail.com> <16de708d0705151640o3b84a479xa62deec3ee274c5e@mail.gmail.com> <464A4549.2030000@fedoraproject.org> <16de708d0705151650n7084f658gc95a6c5dfbbd152a@mail.gmail.com> <464A4853.8000204@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <16de708d0705151713w32768e9ds2b57dbf71f09f9da@mail.gmail.com> On 5/15/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Arthur Pemberton wrote: > > On 5/15/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > >> Arthur Pemberton wrote: > >> >> When you use yum, you can use this yum plugin to only install security > >> >> updates. This works for Core Packages in FC6 and all in F7. > >> > > >> > > >> > Isn't moving so many, apparently useful features into non default > >> > plugins diluting the apparent effectiveness of yum? > >> > >> Not moving. Adding. > > > > > > Thanks for the correction, but my question still stands. > > No. It doesn't. Adding new features as plugins cannot possibly dilute > the effectiveness of yum. Removing features might but that depends on > the feature. For example, earlier versions of yum had a feature that > displays rss feeds that got moved into a separate utility. > > Rahul Plugins are nice, I like them. I was referring to "non default plugins" as in those very nice plugins that aren't in by default, and require knowledge of their existence (generally) to get to. -- Fedora Core 6 and proud From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed May 16 00:25:09 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 05:55:09 +0530 Subject: Fedora 8 - more user friendly updates? In-Reply-To: <16de708d0705151713w32768e9ds2b57dbf71f09f9da@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300705150236i6cc22513y7483a25f9e70e302@mail.gmail.com> <16de708d0705151640o3b84a479xa62deec3ee274c5e@mail.gmail.com> <464A4549.2030000@fedoraproject.org> <16de708d0705151650n7084f658gc95a6c5dfbbd152a@mail.gmail.com> <464A4853.8000204@fedoraproject.org> <16de708d0705151713w32768e9ds2b57dbf71f09f9da@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <464A4F65.20608@fedoraproject.org> Arthur Pemberton wrote: > > Plugins are nice, I like them. I was referring to "non default > plugins" as in those very nice plugins that aren't in by default, and > require knowledge of their existence (generally) to get to. We can't install every single plugin yum plugin by default. What you find useful is not what others find useful. Every single non-default packages requires knowledge about that to install them. That is not a yum specific issue. If you want to make the functionality more visible one solution is to document them better. I wanted to publish a new guide for Fedora 7 but have got little help so far. Want to contribute? http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/SoftwareManagementGuide Rahul From katzj at redhat.com Wed May 16 02:18:23 2007 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 22:18:23 -0400 Subject: Fedora 8 - more user friendly updates? In-Reply-To: <16de708d0705151640o3b84a479xa62deec3ee274c5e@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300705150236i6cc22513y7483a25f9e70e302@mail.gmail.com> <16de708d0705151640o3b84a479xa62deec3ee274c5e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1179281903.19251.1.camel@aglarond.local> On Tue, 2007-05-15 at 19:40 -0400, Arthur Pemberton wrote: > > When you use yum, you can use this yum plugin to only install security > > updates. This works for Core Packages in FC6 and all in F7. > > Isn't moving so many, apparently useful features into non default > plugins diluting the apparent effectiveness of yum? One thing that's had a little bit of discussion on yum-devel is looking through plugins and seeing if any of them make sense to be included by default or integrated into the core of yum over the next little bit. Overall, I'm not opposed to making some of them installed and enabled by default (for F8), but it's a case by case discussion Jeremy From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Wed May 16 08:37:30 2007 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 10:37:30 +0200 Subject: fedora 6/7 - why do you ignore k3b by default? In-Reply-To: <464A0DB5.4060209@fedoraproject.org> References: <64b14b300705150439s25e5738dqa61b9a28fed56ed3@mail.gmail.com> <464A0DB5.4060209@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <64b14b300705160137i6faa3662i1e5ebc16523c4afe@mail.gmail.com> On 5/15/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Valent Turkovic wrote: > > Why isn't the best burning software on by default on new fedora 6/7 > > installations? > Best is certainly subjective. If I a GNOME user I certainly don't want a > whole bunch of KDE packages to have K3b installed. If I just want to > burn some files quickly nautilus cd burning is more suitable. For other > purposes there are programs like Brasero. I'm not only giving my own personal opinion, but also of a few other people who switched from windows to linux desktop. And they love k3b more than they did Nero on the "dark" side :) > > Is there some particular reason? I see k3b as the best cd/dvd burning > > app and it should be installed by default IMHO. > > Installed by default in where? The GNOME based live images wouldn't have > enough space. KDE based live images already have them. If you choose KDE > in "Fedora" spin you get k3b by default too. I installed gnome desktiop from Fedora 7 test 4 dvd, and I feel that from DVD it should be installed by default no matter what DE I choose. Gnome has some programs that KDE doesn't and also is true for the KDE (qt). There is no point sticking to only one platform - the best apps from whole array of linux apps should be presented to new users. Users don't care it it's qt or not. > > Also when it is installed by hand it still doesn't play well on Fedora > > 6/7 desktops. > > I posted a bug for it: > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=240097 > > > > Can you please give a bit more of much needed attention to k3b? > > Merge will get such programs more maintainers hopefully. > > Rahul Great ! > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Wed May 16 08:45:57 2007 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 10:45:57 +0200 Subject: fedora 6/7 - why do you ignore k3b by default? In-Reply-To: <4649A69F.8000302@nicubunu.ro> References: <64b14b300705150439s25e5738dqa61b9a28fed56ed3@mail.gmail.com> <4649A69F.8000302@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <64b14b300705160145p4c37eb3fn615bcac347b99d4d@mail.gmail.com> On 5/15/07, Nicu Buculei wrote: > Valent Turkovic wrote: > > Why isn't the best burning software on by default on new fedora 6/7 > > installations? > > > > Is there some particular reason? I see k3b as the best cd/dvd burning > > app and it should be installed by default IMHO. > > I see this form the opposite direction: I would like to drop K3B for > good for my personal use, as it is *the only* desktop application I have > using *the other* toolkit (and it does not integrate well with the rest I installed k3b on my gnome desktop after and some kde dependencies got also installed. so what?!? is that a bad thing?!? Users don't care which toolkit an app uses - when they can use it and it works. And all the hard work KDE and Gnome people are doing to make the usage of mixed apps the most pleasant experience possible should not be dismissed. > of the desktop, is very slow to start etc.). note: my main usage Ok, 3 seconds it too much time to wait :) Then switch to windows, they boot much faster than linux :) Speed is not a sane argument here for me. > scenario in using K3B is to write multisession disks, feature not > available in nautilus-burn. I use it all the time, ISO burning the most, making cd and dvd compilations of multimedia... etc... formating DVD-RW and DVD+RW's... > In some case the default choice in the Fedora desktop is the easiest to > use and/or the most integrated solution, this is why Nautilus-burn is > the recommended way to burn disks and on the same thinking, a gtk For basic burning it is ok, but most users need more. Trust me I know users habits. > Bittorent client is preferred to Azureus (and I agree here, with a > strong personal liking for Transmission and maybe Deluge). > > Of course, the rule is not always true, as Firefox is preferred to > Epiphany, and examples can continue on both sides. Firefox is a great example and also is OpenOffice on KDE where it feels a bit misplaced but is needed still. From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Wed May 16 08:48:40 2007 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 10:48:40 +0200 Subject: fedora 6/7 - why do you ignore k3b by default? In-Reply-To: <464A0DB5.4060209@fedoraproject.org> References: <64b14b300705150439s25e5738dqa61b9a28fed56ed3@mail.gmail.com> <464A0DB5.4060209@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <64b14b300705160148h104cd943x151f990e47a91e3c@mail.gmail.com> > purposes there are programs like Brasero. Why at least isn't Brasero installed by default? I didn't wvwn know that there is a program called brasero. Now I installed it and it is really nice. At lease brasero should be installed by default. From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Wed May 16 08:53:33 2007 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 11:53:33 +0300 Subject: fedora 6/7 - why do you ignore k3b by default? In-Reply-To: <64b14b300705160137i6faa3662i1e5ebc16523c4afe@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300705150439s25e5738dqa61b9a28fed56ed3@mail.gmail.com> <464A0DB5.4060209@fedoraproject.org> <64b14b300705160137i6faa3662i1e5ebc16523c4afe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <464AC68D.5080808@nicubunu.ro> Valent Turkovic wrote: > > I'm not only giving my own personal opinion, but also of a few other > people who switched from windows to linux desktop. And they love k3b > more than they did Nero on the "dark" side :) Out of curiosity, have those users tried GnomeBaker? Maybe Brassero also? Which advantages have K3b over those? (beside support for mp3, which is not enabled in Fedora anyway) > I installed gnome desktiop from Fedora 7 test 4 dvd, and I feel that > from DVD it should be installed by default no matter what DE I choose. Not if Gnome have a comparable native alternative. > Gnome has some programs that KDE doesn't and also is true for the KDE > (qt). There is no point sticking to only one platform - the best apps > from whole array of linux apps should be presented to new users. Users > don't care it it's qt or not. Well, on my desktop K3b look alien (I can tell from a mile it use another set of widgets) and is very slow to start. Its Open/Save dialogs look strange and do not include the bookmarks available in all other applications, the order of "OK"/"Cancel" buttons in dialogs is weird, the menu structure is bad (instead of Edit > Preferences it have Settings). I could go with this more and more. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Wed May 16 09:10:16 2007 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 12:10:16 +0300 Subject: fedora 6/7 - why do you ignore k3b by default? In-Reply-To: <64b14b300705160145p4c37eb3fn615bcac347b99d4d@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300705150439s25e5738dqa61b9a28fed56ed3@mail.gmail.com> <4649A69F.8000302@nicubunu.ro> <64b14b300705160145p4c37eb3fn615bcac347b99d4d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <464ACA78.4080903@nicubunu.ro> Valent Turkovic wrote: > > I installed k3b on my gnome desktop after and some kde dependencies > got also installed. so what?!? is that a bad thing?!? Users don't care Yes, wasted space is a bad thing: - on the media space is important, the liveCD had already to leave out useful applications due to space constraints; - for an online install there is much more to download; - more libraries will require more updates to be downloaded and installed in the future; - how about machines with a limited amount of RAM? > which toolkit an app uses - when they can use it and it works. I detailed in another message why users care. Well, maybe not the users coming from Windows, where almost every application has its own incompatible look and feel... > Ok, 3 seconds it too much time to wait :) Then switch to windows, they > boot much faster than linux :) Speed is not a sane argument here for > me. GnomeBaker is much faster to start (because the libraries are already in memory). > I use it all the time, ISO burning the most, making cd and dvd > compilations of multimedia... etc... formating DVD-RW and DVD+RW's... I believe you know about ISO burning with a right-click directly from Nautilus. >> Of course, the rule is not always true, as Firefox is preferred to >> Epiphany, and examples can continue on both sides. > > Firefox is a great example and also is OpenOffice on KDE where it > feels a bit misplaced but is needed still. I see quite a lot of KDE users preferring Konqueror instead of Firefox and OpenOffice.org was kicked out of the LiveCD because is too large. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Wed May 16 09:16:19 2007 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 11:16:19 +0200 Subject: Fedora 8 - more user friendly updates? In-Reply-To: References: <64b14b300705150236i6cc22513y7483a25f9e70e302@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <64b14b300705160216y56ad87f4v808599a712f621c9@mail.gmail.com> On 5/15/07, Till Maas wrote: > Valent Turkovic wrote: > > > One thing I found really exceptional was Ubuntu's granual update. You > > can choose what types of updates you wan't the system to inform you of > > - only security updates, system updates (desktop and related programs) > > or all updates (all installed packages). > > > Is there any plan for Fedora 8 to be more user friendly in this > > regard? I love Fedora Desktop more that any other linux desktop and > > just would like to see it adopt the great ideas that others have > > already implemented and then suprise them with some new features that > > other destops don't have. > > When you use yum, you can use this yum plugin to only install security > updates. This works for Core Packages in FC6 and all in F7. > > http://people.redhat.com/jantill/yum-security/yum-security.man.html > > Regards, > Till > I know that no matter what technical question I ask there is an answer. I know about yum plugins... but the point is that in Ubuntu there is a really nice gui and it is really intuitive. You see there three choices, choose which kind of updates you want and off you go. If you don't know about yum plugins on fedora you are stuck, and on Ubuntu (sorry to push it all the time in your face) even if you don't know that there is a such possibility when you open the "update config tool" or what it is called - you see it and it becomes clear instantly. From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Wed May 16 09:23:16 2007 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 11:23:16 +0200 Subject: Fedora 8 - more user friendly updates? In-Reply-To: <16de708d0705151650n7084f658gc95a6c5dfbbd152a@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300705150236i6cc22513y7483a25f9e70e302@mail.gmail.com> <16de708d0705151640o3b84a479xa62deec3ee274c5e@mail.gmail.com> <464A4549.2030000@fedoraproject.org> <16de708d0705151650n7084f658gc95a6c5dfbbd152a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <64b14b300705160223s69728bcj175aa3bf98cdad37@mail.gmail.com> On 5/16/07, Arthur Pemberton wrote: > On 5/15/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > Arthur Pemberton wrote: > > >> When you use yum, you can use this yum plugin to only install security > > >> updates. This works for Core Packages in FC6 and all in F7. > > > > > > > > > Isn't moving so many, apparently useful features into non default > > > plugins diluting the apparent effectiveness of yum? > > > > Not moving. Adding. > > > Thanks for the correction, but my question still stands. > > Can I correct yout question? Is the decision not to including some "best" plugins by default diluting the apparent effectiveness of yum? From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Wed May 16 09:23:36 2007 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 11:23:36 +0200 Subject: Fedora 8 - more user friendly updates? In-Reply-To: <64b14b300705160223s69728bcj175aa3bf98cdad37@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300705150236i6cc22513y7483a25f9e70e302@mail.gmail.com> <16de708d0705151640o3b84a479xa62deec3ee274c5e@mail.gmail.com> <464A4549.2030000@fedoraproject.org> <16de708d0705151650n7084f658gc95a6c5dfbbd152a@mail.gmail.com> <64b14b300705160223s69728bcj175aa3bf98cdad37@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <64b14b300705160223pc7ec831s7739f5d55c24894f@mail.gmail.com> -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241 Skype: valent.turkovic On 5/16/07, Valent Turkovic wrote: > On 5/16/07, Arthur Pemberton wrote: > > On 5/15/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > Arthur Pemberton wrote: > > > >> When you use yum, you can use this yum plugin to only install security > > > >> updates. This works for Core Packages in FC6 and all in F7. > > > > > > > > > > > > Isn't moving so many, apparently useful features into non default > > > > plugins diluting the apparent effectiveness of yum? > > > > > > Not moving. Adding. > > > > > > Thanks for the correction, but my question still stands. > > > > > > Can I correct yout question? > > Is the decision not to including some "best" plugins by default > diluting the apparent effectiveness of yum? > From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Wed May 16 09:23:45 2007 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 11:23:45 +0200 Subject: Fedora 8 - more user friendly updates? In-Reply-To: <64b14b300705160223pc7ec831s7739f5d55c24894f@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300705150236i6cc22513y7483a25f9e70e302@mail.gmail.com> <16de708d0705151640o3b84a479xa62deec3ee274c5e@mail.gmail.com> <464A4549.2030000@fedoraproject.org> <16de708d0705151650n7084f658gc95a6c5dfbbd152a@mail.gmail.com> <64b14b300705160223s69728bcj175aa3bf98cdad37@mail.gmail.com> <64b14b300705160223pc7ec831s7739f5d55c24894f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <64b14b300705160223v73e8baedo7dc1199b9d0a8d4@mail.gmail.com> -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241 Skype: valent.turkovic On 5/16/07, Valent Turkovic wrote: > -- > http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ > linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless > registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. > ICQ: 2125241 > Skype: valent.turkovic > > > On 5/16/07, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > On 5/16/07, Arthur Pemberton wrote: > > > On 5/15/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > > Arthur Pemberton wrote: > > > > >> When you use yum, you can use this yum plugin to only install security > > > > >> updates. This works for Core Packages in FC6 and all in F7. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Isn't moving so many, apparently useful features into non default > > > > > plugins diluting the apparent effectiveness of yum? > > > > > > > > Not moving. Adding. > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the correction, but my question still stands. > > > > > > > > > > Can I correct yout question? > > > > Is the decision not to including some "best" plugins by default > > diluting the apparent effectiveness of yum? > > > From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Wed May 16 09:24:53 2007 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 11:24:53 +0200 Subject: Fedora 8 - more user friendly updates? In-Reply-To: <64b14b300705160223s69728bcj175aa3bf98cdad37@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300705150236i6cc22513y7483a25f9e70e302@mail.gmail.com> <16de708d0705151640o3b84a479xa62deec3ee274c5e@mail.gmail.com> <464A4549.2030000@fedoraproject.org> <16de708d0705151650n7084f658gc95a6c5dfbbd152a@mail.gmail.com> <64b14b300705160223s69728bcj175aa3bf98cdad37@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <64b14b300705160224j70f8158bo396500f9bcc9b1e1@mail.gmail.com> Can I correct your question? Is the decision not to including some "best" plugins by default diluting the apparent effectiveness of yum? From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Wed May 16 10:10:32 2007 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 12:10:32 +0200 Subject: fedora 6/7 - why do you ignore k3b by default? In-Reply-To: <464AC68D.5080808@nicubunu.ro> References: <64b14b300705150439s25e5738dqa61b9a28fed56ed3@mail.gmail.com> <464A0DB5.4060209@fedoraproject.org> <64b14b300705160137i6faa3662i1e5ebc16523c4afe@mail.gmail.com> <464AC68D.5080808@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <64b14b300705160310t1f6a2054i4f1fe49267e68078@mail.gmail.com> On 5/16/07, Nicu Buculei wrote: > Valent Turkovic wrote: > > > > I'm not only giving my own personal opinion, but also of a few other > > people who switched from windows to linux desktop. And they love k3b > > more than they did Nero on the "dark" side :) > > Out of curiosity, have those users tried GnomeBaker? Maybe Brassero also? > Which advantages have K3b over those? (beside support for mp3, which is > not enabled in Fedora anyway) Yes. They tested a few and still came back to k3b. Why? I know only they said it is the best they used - I didn't go into details. > > > I installed gnome desktiop from Fedora 7 test 4 dvd, and I feel that > > from DVD it should be installed by default no matter what DE I choose. > > Not if Gnome have a comparable native alternative. Ok, here I agree. But not even brasero is installed by default on my gnome desktop in fedora core 6 or fedora 7 test 4. > > Gnome has some programs that KDE doesn't and also is true for the KDE > > (qt). There is no point sticking to only one platform - the best apps > > from whole array of linux apps should be presented to new users. Users > > don't care it it's qt or not. > > Well, on my desktop K3b look alien (I can tell from a mile it use I think you are a bit too biased to make this claim. I alt-tab firefox-nautilus-thunderbird-openoffice-evolution and then k3b... and when I switch to k3b it doesn't look at least out of place. It looks like a native linux app - and in place. I don't judge an app by widgets set and think that is discriminating. > another set of widgets) and is very slow to start. I (and probably over 50% of users) have one or other app that uses other widget set - on my system k3b launces in 2 seconds, and that is not because of time to load libraries but because it test the system and devices during launch - if you aren't familiar how k3b works I suggest you use it first and then claim that it is slow because of kde libraries. On my desktop k3b >Its Open/Save dialogs > look strange and do not include the bookmarks available in all other > applications, the order of "OK"/"Cancel" buttons in dialogs is weird, > the menu structure is bad (instead of Edit > Preferences it have > Settings). I could go with this more and more Come on, are you really serious? Almost every app has differently places some buttons or menu... Try using some really different app like gaim ie. pidgin - what would you say to that app? > -- > nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com > Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ > Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org > my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Wed May 16 10:27:25 2007 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 12:27:25 +0200 Subject: fedora 6/7 - why do you ignore k3b by default? In-Reply-To: <464ACA78.4080903@nicubunu.ro> References: <64b14b300705150439s25e5738dqa61b9a28fed56ed3@mail.gmail.com> <4649A69F.8000302@nicubunu.ro> <64b14b300705160145p4c37eb3fn615bcac347b99d4d@mail.gmail.com> <464ACA78.4080903@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <64b14b300705160327xb159facqcd4ad50edc7f1492@mail.gmail.com> On 5/16/07, Nicu Buculei wrote: > Valent Turkovic wrote: > > > > I installed k3b on my gnome desktop after and some kde dependencies > > got also installed. so what?!? is that a bad thing?!? Users don't care > > Yes, wasted space is a bad thing: > - on the media space is important, the liveCD had already to leave out > useful applications due to space constraints; I didn't mention livecd. I'm talking about dvd installation. > - for an online install there is much more to download; Well until they invent quantum data transfer and you have everything installed before you finish your thought about installing it. For every app there is an package that needs to be installed - that is obvious and shouldn't even be mentioned. > - more libraries will require more updates to be downloaded and > installed in the future; I'm very active in pushing deltarpm - if you really wan't to make a real change then get involved in presto yum plugin project. > - how about machines with a limited amount of RAM? If somebody can run gnome or kde deskop I can bet you that it can run k3b. > > which toolkit an app uses - when they can use it and it works. > > I detailed in another message why users care. Well, maybe not the users > coming from Windows, where almost every application has its own > incompatible look and feel... Have you been to real world recently? I suggest you walk around and look at other peoples desktops - and count how much of them are in mixed mode - KDE desktop + gnome apps or Gnome desktiops + KDE apps. Then tell me who uses only Gnome desktop and not a single app that uses qt widget set or vice versa. I can bet you won't find any. > > Ok, 3 seconds it too much time to wait :) Then switch to windows, they > > boot much faster than linux :) Speed is not a sane argument here for > > me. > > GnomeBaker is much faster to start (because the libraries are already in > memory). I answered this in previous message - it is not because of libraries - please get to know how k3b works before you send such false information. I have kde libraries loaded because I have krusader or some other kde app already running and it is still slower to start k3b - but only a second slower, and that is because k3b checks the system and configuration - NOT because of libraries need to load. > > I use it all the time, ISO burning the most, making cd and dvd > > compilations of multimedia... etc... formating DVD-RW and DVD+RW's... > > I believe you know about ISO burning with a right-click directly from > Nautilus. And I believe you know that nautilus doesn't have md5 calculator on it's right click integrated with the ISO burning. I know why I use k3b over nautilus. > >> Of course, the rule is not always true, as Firefox is preferred to > >> Epiphany, and examples can continue on both sides. > > > > Firefox is a great example and also is OpenOffice on KDE where it > > feels a bit misplaced but is needed still. > > I see quite a lot of KDE users preferring Konqueror instead of Firefox > and OpenOffice.org was kicked out of the LiveCD because is too large. Great - one single most important app on the whole linux desktop and it is not on livecd - I really strongly believe that it is a really huge mistake. Ubuntu in then clearly a much much better live CD then IMHO - because if you wan't to present a "linux desktio" via LiveCD how would you do it without OpenOffice? What would you say to potentianl users - "You know there is this great office suite but we deleted it of the cd - but trust us it is great!" :) And again I wasn't aware I was talking about live-cd. From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Wed May 16 10:28:00 2007 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 12:28:00 +0200 Subject: fedora 6/7 - why do you ignore k3b by default? In-Reply-To: <64b14b300705160327xb159facqcd4ad50edc7f1492@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300705150439s25e5738dqa61b9a28fed56ed3@mail.gmail.com> <4649A69F.8000302@nicubunu.ro> <64b14b300705160145p4c37eb3fn615bcac347b99d4d@mail.gmail.com> <464ACA78.4080903@nicubunu.ro> <64b14b300705160327xb159facqcd4ad50edc7f1492@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <64b14b300705160328q48b92517mdbc01a67fb8aecde@mail.gmail.com> -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241 Skype: valent.turkovic On 5/16/07, Valent Turkovic wrote: > On 5/16/07, Nicu Buculei wrote: > > Valent Turkovic wrote: > > > > > > I installed k3b on my gnome desktop after and some kde dependencies > > > got also installed. so what?!? is that a bad thing?!? Users don't care > > > > Yes, wasted space is a bad thing: > > - on the media space is important, the liveCD had already to leave out > > useful applications due to space constraints; > > I didn't mention livecd. I'm talking about dvd installation. > > > - for an online install there is much more to download; > > Well until they invent quantum data transfer and you have everything > installed before you finish your thought about installing it. > > For every app there is an package that needs to be installed - that is > obvious and shouldn't even be mentioned. > > > - more libraries will require more updates to be downloaded and > > installed in the future; > > I'm very active in pushing deltarpm - if you really wan't to make a > real change then get involved in presto yum plugin project. > > > - how about machines with a limited amount of RAM? > > If somebody can run gnome or kde deskop I can bet you that it can run k3b. > > > > which toolkit an app uses - when they can use it and it works. > > > > I detailed in another message why users care. Well, maybe not the users > > coming from Windows, where almost every application has its own > > incompatible look and feel... > > Have you been to real world recently? I suggest you walk around and > look at other peoples desktops - and count how much of them are in > mixed mode - KDE desktop + gnome apps or Gnome desktiops + KDE apps. > > Then tell me who uses only Gnome desktop and not a single app that > uses qt widget set or vice versa. I can bet you won't find any. > > > > Ok, 3 seconds it too much time to wait :) Then switch to windows, they > > > boot much faster than linux :) Speed is not a sane argument here for > > > me. > > > > GnomeBaker is much faster to start (because the libraries are already in > > memory). > > I answered this in previous message - it is not because of libraries - > please get to know how k3b works before you send such false > information. > > I have kde libraries loaded because I have krusader or some other kde > app already running and it is still slower to start k3b - but only a > second slower, and that is because k3b checks the system and > configuration - NOT because of libraries need to load. > > > > I use it all the time, ISO burning the most, making cd and dvd > > > compilations of multimedia... etc... formating DVD-RW and DVD+RW's... > > > > I believe you know about ISO burning with a right-click directly from > > Nautilus. > > And I believe you know that nautilus doesn't have md5 calculator on > it's right click integrated with the ISO burning. > I know why I use k3b over nautilus. > > > >> Of course, the rule is not always true, as Firefox is preferred to > > >> Epiphany, and examples can continue on both sides. > > > > > > Firefox is a great example and also is OpenOffice on KDE where it > > > feels a bit misplaced but is needed still. > > > > I see quite a lot of KDE users preferring Konqueror instead of Firefox > > and OpenOffice.org was kicked out of the LiveCD because is too large. > > Great - one single most important app on the whole linux desktop and > it is not on livecd - I really strongly believe that it is a really > huge mistake. Ubuntu in then clearly a much much better live CD then > IMHO - because if you wan't to present a "linux desktio" via LiveCD > how would you do it without OpenOffice? What would you say to > potentianl users - "You know there is this great office suite but we > deleted it of the cd - but trust us it is great!" :) > > And again I wasn't aware I was talking about live-cd. > From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Wed May 16 10:29:04 2007 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 12:29:04 +0200 Subject: fedora 6/7 - why do you ignore k3b by default? In-Reply-To: <64b14b300705160328q48b92517mdbc01a67fb8aecde@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300705150439s25e5738dqa61b9a28fed56ed3@mail.gmail.com> <4649A69F.8000302@nicubunu.ro> <64b14b300705160145p4c37eb3fn615bcac347b99d4d@mail.gmail.com> <464ACA78.4080903@nicubunu.ro> <64b14b300705160327xb159facqcd4ad50edc7f1492@mail.gmail.com> <64b14b300705160328q48b92517mdbc01a67fb8aecde@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <64b14b300705160329s696fd6bclb957dc500b0e6f7b@mail.gmail.com> Just to be clear - I don't use Ubuntu, except I test it and look at what have they done. I'm a fedora users and really love it... From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Wed May 16 10:41:18 2007 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 13:41:18 +0300 Subject: fedora 6/7 - why do you ignore k3b by default? In-Reply-To: <64b14b300705160327xb159facqcd4ad50edc7f1492@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300705150439s25e5738dqa61b9a28fed56ed3@mail.gmail.com> <4649A69F.8000302@nicubunu.ro> <64b14b300705160145p4c37eb3fn615bcac347b99d4d@mail.gmail.com> <464ACA78.4080903@nicubunu.ro> <64b14b300705160327xb159facqcd4ad50edc7f1492@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <464ADFCE.7030308@nicubunu.ro> Valent Turkovic wrote: > Have you been to real world recently? I suggest you walk around and > look at other peoples desktops - and count how much of them are in > mixed mode - KDE desktop + gnome apps or Gnome desktiops + KDE apps. > > Then tell me who uses only Gnome desktop and not a single app that > uses qt widget set or vice versa. I can bet you won't find any. I already said I still use K3b (but I am looking for a change). And yes, I have Scribus installed, but not use it even once in a month. It is not the best data source or users sample but have a look at http://mugshot.org/applications K3b is on the 71 place with 68 users, to put in perspective Firefox is 1st with 4272 and gedit 7th place with 1569. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From ml at deadbabylon.de Wed May 16 10:48:32 2007 From: ml at deadbabylon.de (Sebastian Vahl) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 12:48:32 +0200 Subject: fedora 6/7 - why do you ignore k3b by default? In-Reply-To: <64b14b300705160327xb159facqcd4ad50edc7f1492@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300705150439s25e5738dqa61b9a28fed56ed3@mail.gmail.com> <4649A69F.8000302@nicubunu.ro> <64b14b300705160145p4c37eb3fn615bcac347b99d4d@mail.gmail.com> <464ACA78.4080903@nicubunu.ro> <64b14b300705160327xb159facqcd4ad50edc7f1492@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070516124832.75d51f44@localhost.localdomain> Am Wed, 16 May 2007 12:27:25 +0200 schrieb "Valent Turkovic" : > > I detailed in another message why users care. Well, maybe not the > > users coming from Windows, where almost every application has its > > own incompatible look and feel... > > Have you been to real world recently? I suggest you walk around and > look at other peoples desktops - and count how much of them are in > mixed mode - KDE desktop + gnome apps or Gnome desktiops + KDE apps. > > Then tell me who uses only Gnome desktop and not a single app that > uses qt widget set or vice versa. I can bet you won't find any. /me raises his hand I have two machines and they are strictly divided into Gnome/Xfce and KDE. That's because I really really hate the mixed file dialogs and handlings when putting all of them together. (Don't get me wrong: the gtk file dialog is ok, the kde file dialog is great but I don't want both of them in one session). Only my kde machine has some gtk apps (and of course system-config-*). And yeah, I'm a member of kde-sig. :) And that's of course only my opinion as a user of both desktops. Sebastian -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kms at passback.co.uk Wed May 16 11:04:17 2007 From: kms at passback.co.uk (Keith Sharp) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 12:04:17 +0100 Subject: fedora 6/7 - why do you ignore k3b by default? In-Reply-To: <64b14b300705160310t1f6a2054i4f1fe49267e68078@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300705150439s25e5738dqa61b9a28fed56ed3@mail.gmail.com> <464A0DB5.4060209@fedoraproject.org> <64b14b300705160137i6faa3662i1e5ebc16523c4afe@mail.gmail.com> <464AC68D.5080808@nicubunu.ro> <64b14b300705160310t1f6a2054i4f1fe49267e68078@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1179313457.29432.11.camel@animal.passback.co.uk> On Wed, 2007-05-16 at 12:10 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote: > >Its Open/Save dialogs > > look strange and do not include the bookmarks available in all other > > applications, the order of "OK"/"Cancel" buttons in dialogs is > weird, > > the menu structure is bad (instead of Edit > Preferences it have > > Settings). I could go with this more and more > > Come on, are you really serious? > Almost every app has differently places some buttons or menu... Try > using some really different app like gaim ie. pidgin - what would you > say to that app? The whole point of the GNOME HIG is so that all core GNOME applications are consistent in look and feel. GAIM/Pidgin is not a core GNOME application and makes little effort to follow the HIG, however if you look at the UI for Gossip you will see an IM client that integrates far better with GNOME. One of the reasons that Apple has been praised for its desktop is because of the ruthless application of their HIG to all parts of the system. This means that the learning curve for new users is significantly lower. Keith. From bnocera at redhat.com Wed May 16 11:15:21 2007 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 12:15:21 +0100 Subject: fedora 6/7 - why do you ignore k3b by default? In-Reply-To: <64b14b300705160327xb159facqcd4ad50edc7f1492@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300705150439s25e5738dqa61b9a28fed56ed3@mail.gmail.com> <4649A69F.8000302@nicubunu.ro> <64b14b300705160145p4c37eb3fn615bcac347b99d4d@mail.gmail.com> <464ACA78.4080903@nicubunu.ro> <64b14b300705160327xb159facqcd4ad50edc7f1492@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1179314121.1236.51.camel@cookie.hadess.net> On Wed, 2007-05-16 at 12:27 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote: > On 5/16/07, Nicu Buculei wrote: > > Valent Turkovic wrote: > > > I use it all the time, ISO burning the most, making cd and dvd > > > compilations of multimedia... etc... formating DVD-RW and DVD+RW's... > > > > I believe you know about ISO burning with a right-click directly from > > Nautilus. > > And I believe you know that nautilus doesn't have md5 calculator on > it's right click integrated with the ISO burning. > I know why I use k3b over nautilus. http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=153428 From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Wed May 16 11:30:10 2007 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 13:30:10 +0200 Subject: shutdown compared ubuntu vs fedora Message-ID: <64b14b300705160430l52f33d27ha1669e22fd090206@mail.gmail.com> I used Mint Linux (ubuntu derivative) and loved it's shutdown button. This looks to me much more user friendly than one we have on Fedora. First buttons for shutdown, restart, sleep and log-off have icons - and fedora has only naked buttons. The screen dims when you click on shutdown - really nice effect. This looks to me as standard Ubuntu button and not something ubuntu has made them selves so I was puzzled when I didn't see it in Fedora 7 test 3 or 4. Can you also include this - a much better version of shutdown button than one fedora currently uses. It is much more usable, and user frendly - and it has logoff button integrated in it and not separate (as it should also be on fedora IMHO). Please look at the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWuZvOAAE9c Thank you. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241 Skype: valent.turkovic From nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net Wed May 16 12:01:03 2007 From: nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net (Nicolas Mailhot) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 14:01:03 +0200 Subject: fedora 6/7 - why do you ignore k3b by default? In-Reply-To: <20070516124832.75d51f44@localhost.localdomain> References: <64b14b300705150439s25e5738dqa61b9a28fed56ed3@mail.gmail.com> <4649A69F.8000302@nicubunu.ro> <64b14b300705160145p4c37eb3fn615bcac347b99d4d@mail.gmail.com> <464ACA78.4080903@nicubunu.ro> <64b14b300705160327xb159facqcd4ad50edc7f1492@mail.gmail.com> <20070516124832.75d51f44@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1179316863.3459.1.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Le mercredi 16 mai 2007 ? 12:48 +0200, Sebastian Vahl a ?crit : > Am Wed, 16 May 2007 12:27:25 +0200 > schrieb "Valent Turkovic" : > > Have you been to real world recently? I suggest you walk around and > > look at other peoples desktops - and count how much of them are in > > mixed mode - KDE desktop + gnome apps or Gnome desktiops + KDE apps. > > > > Then tell me who uses only Gnome desktop and not a single app that > > uses qt widget set or vice versa. I can bet you won't find any. > > /me raises his hand [nim at rousalka ~]$ rpm -qa|grep qt [nim at rousalka ~]$ rpm -qa|grep mono [nim at rousalka ~]$ rpm -q gtk2 gtk2-2.10.11-5.fc7.x86_64 -- Nicolas Mailhot Purist -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Ceci est une partie de message num?riquement sign?e URL: From mclasen at redhat.com Wed May 16 12:01:42 2007 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 08:01:42 -0400 Subject: shutdown compared ubuntu vs fedora In-Reply-To: <64b14b300705160430l52f33d27ha1669e22fd090206@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300705160430l52f33d27ha1669e22fd090206@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1179316902.3219.4.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> On Wed, 2007-05-16 at 13:30 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote: > I used Mint Linux (ubuntu derivative) and loved it's shutdown button. > > This looks to me much more user friendly than one we have on Fedora. > > First buttons for shutdown, restart, sleep and log-off have icons - > and fedora has only naked buttons. > The screen dims when you click on shutdown - really nice effect. > > This looks to me as standard Ubuntu button and not something ubuntu > has made them selves so I was puzzled when I didn't see it in Fedora 7 > test 3 or 4. > > Can you also include this - a much better version of shutdown button > than one fedora currently uses. > > It is much more usable, and user frendly - and it has logoff button > integrated in it and not separate (as it should also be on fedora > IMHO). > > Please look at the video: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWuZvOAAE9c > The logout dialog is one of the best-hated derivations from upstream that you can find in Ubuntu. Don't expect us to blindly follow them where they err, just because it looks shiny. From mclasen at redhat.com Wed May 16 12:02:34 2007 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 08:02:34 -0400 Subject: shutdown compared ubuntu vs fedora In-Reply-To: <1179316902.3219.4.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> References: <64b14b300705160430l52f33d27ha1669e22fd090206@mail.gmail.com> <1179316902.3219.4.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1179316954.3219.6.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> On Wed, 2007-05-16 at 08:01 -0400, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > > > The logout dialog is one of the best-hated derivations from upstream > that you can find in Ubuntu. Don't expect us to blindly follow them > where they err, just because it looks shiny. > s/derivations/deviations/ From kanarip at kanarip.com Wed May 16 13:41:08 2007 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 15:41:08 +0200 Subject: shutdown compared ubuntu vs fedora In-Reply-To: <64b14b300705160430l52f33d27ha1669e22fd090206@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300705160430l52f33d27ha1669e22fd090206@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <464B09F4.9010706@kanarip.com> Valent Turkovic wrote: > > Can you also include this - a much better version of shutdown button > than one fedora currently uses. > IMHO, a shutdown button is a shutdown button... it shuts your computer down... if you want eye-candy (apart from whatever anyone subjectively considers eye-candy), you shouldn't shut down the computer in the first place. -kanarip From pemboa at gmail.com Wed May 16 15:24:06 2007 From: pemboa at gmail.com (Arthur Pemberton) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 11:24:06 -0400 Subject: Fedora 8 - more user friendly updates? In-Reply-To: <64b14b300705160224j70f8158bo396500f9bcc9b1e1@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300705150236i6cc22513y7483a25f9e70e302@mail.gmail.com> <16de708d0705151640o3b84a479xa62deec3ee274c5e@mail.gmail.com> <464A4549.2030000@fedoraproject.org> <16de708d0705151650n7084f658gc95a6c5dfbbd152a@mail.gmail.com> <64b14b300705160223s69728bcj175aa3bf98cdad37@mail.gmail.com> <64b14b300705160224j70f8158bo396500f9bcc9b1e1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <16de708d0705160824r35709d22qb5a3984565169535@mail.gmail.com> On 5/16/07, Valent Turkovic wrote: > Can I correct your question? Sure, why not. > Is the decision not to including some "best" plugins by default > diluting the apparent effectiveness of yum? > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > -- Fedora Core 6 and proud From walters at redhat.com Wed May 16 15:22:26 2007 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 11:22:26 -0400 Subject: shutdown compared ubuntu vs fedora In-Reply-To: <64b14b300705160430l52f33d27ha1669e22fd090206@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300705160430l52f33d27ha1669e22fd090206@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1179328946.1043.3.camel@neutron> On Wed, 2007-05-16 at 13:30 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote: > I used Mint Linux (ubuntu derivative) and loved it's shutdown button. Even better, work on making the shutdown and reboot buttons sync kernel buffers to disk, perhaps some other misc cleanup on the order of 2-3 seconds max, then cut the power. From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Wed May 16 16:00:05 2007 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 18:00:05 +0200 Subject: shutdown compared ubuntu vs fedora In-Reply-To: <1179316902.3219.4.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> References: <64b14b300705160430l52f33d27ha1669e22fd090206@mail.gmail.com> <1179316902.3219.4.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <64b14b300705160900v7b9e2d7dwe60428783e66d8ad@mail.gmail.com> > The logout dialog is one of the best-hated derivations from upstream > that you can find in Ubuntu. Hated by whom? And why? Can you explain a bit? >Don't expect us to blindly follow them > where they err, just because it looks shiny. I don't care if it is ubunut, gentoo, opensuse or fedora... but when I as a user see when one distro has taken one component and really made it shine (not as eyecandy) for users and made it much more user friendly and made it better usabillity wise ie. big icons that users get right away - that makes me want to see that kind of progress on all other linux desktops. Why do you thing that it is a mistake? Because they did it themselves independent of Gnome? I thought that it was part of gnome but that just fedora wasn't using it. Gnome people should see this as work done for them and include it in gnome.... if they like it. Or atlest give us users option to choose which shutdown button we would use. From david at lovesunix.net Wed May 16 16:13:54 2007 From: david at lovesunix.net (David Nielsen) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 18:13:54 +0200 Subject: shutdown compared ubuntu vs fedora In-Reply-To: <64b14b300705160900v7b9e2d7dwe60428783e66d8ad@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300705160430l52f33d27ha1669e22fd090206@mail.gmail.com> <1179316902.3219.4.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <64b14b300705160900v7b9e2d7dwe60428783e66d8ad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1179332034.5116.11.camel@dawkins> ons, 16 05 2007 kl. 18:00 +0200, skrev Valent Turkovic: > > The logout dialog is one of the best-hated derivations from upstream > > that you can find in Ubuntu. > > Hated by whom? And why? Can you explain a bit? Pretty much anyone I've asked at least including myself. It's non-sensical and looks out of place, if we need to redesign the upstream dialog it should be done there with an eye to how the rest of the desktop works and looks not in every distro. I'm sure there's room for improvement in the default but the Ubuntu dialog does not represent any significant added value. - David -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Dette er en digitalt underskrevet brevdel URL: From david at lovesunix.net Wed May 16 16:20:29 2007 From: david at lovesunix.net (David Nielsen) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 18:20:29 +0200 Subject: fedora 6/7 - why do you ignore k3b by default? In-Reply-To: <64b14b300705160148h104cd943x151f990e47a91e3c@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300705150439s25e5738dqa61b9a28fed56ed3@mail.gmail.com> <464A0DB5.4060209@fedoraproject.org> <64b14b300705160148h104cd943x151f990e47a91e3c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1179332429.5116.19.camel@dawkins> ons, 16 05 2007 kl. 10:48 +0200, skrev Valent Turkovic: > Why at least isn't Brasero installed by default? > I didn't wvwn know that there is a program called brasero. Now I > installed it and it is really nice. At lease brasero should be > installed by default. Because burning as functionality doesn't warrent a seperate application, that is a historical design mistake made primarily because integration was not possible in the desktops at the time when burners became affordable for everyone. GNOME already provides me with burning functionality, burn an iso by clicking it, want a music cd then create it in your music player (I use Banshee but rhythmbox does this also) and so on. I'd opt for making the integration more visible rather than doing the cope out of including a seperate application. We could extend f-spot if it doesn't already support photoCDs so you could compile one directly in your photo management application and likewise for other use cases which to me seems like a much better ideal to strive for. - David Nielsen -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Dette er en digitalt underskrevet brevdel URL: From david at lovesunix.net Wed May 16 16:30:11 2007 From: david at lovesunix.net (David Nielsen) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 18:30:11 +0200 Subject: fedora 6/7 - why do you ignore k3b by default? In-Reply-To: <464ADFCE.7030308@nicubunu.ro> References: <64b14b300705150439s25e5738dqa61b9a28fed56ed3@mail.gmail.com> <4649A69F.8000302@nicubunu.ro> <64b14b300705160145p4c37eb3fn615bcac347b99d4d@mail.gmail.com> <464ACA78.4080903@nicubunu.ro> <64b14b300705160327xb159facqcd4ad50edc7f1492@mail.gmail.com> <464ADFCE.7030308@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <1179333011.5116.29.camel@dawkins> ons, 16 05 2007 kl. 13:41 +0300, skrev Nicu Buculei: > It is not the best data source or users sample but have a look at > http://mugshot.org/applications > K3b is on the 71 place with 68 users, to put in perspective Firefox is > 1st with 4272 and gedit 7th place with 1569. Just adding the obligatory grain of salt here. Mugshot is still mainly used by willing testers with specialized background like development, QA or other Fedora tasks - as is evident by the prominent placement of GNOME-terminal. I have a feeling that the stats will level out once Mugshot becomes used by more regular users, like our mothers. Lies, damn lies and statistics, at least untill we get better coverage, how many Mugshot users who send in data do we have, maybe 5000? FC6 alone is around 3 million users, even without the data screw provided by the current mugshot userbase, that's not even 1% of our existing userbase. - David -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Dette er en digitalt underskrevet brevdel URL: From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Wed May 16 16:02:13 2007 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 18:02:13 +0200 Subject: shutdown compared ubuntu vs fedora In-Reply-To: <464B09F4.9010706@kanarip.com> References: <64b14b300705160430l52f33d27ha1669e22fd090206@mail.gmail.com> <464B09F4.9010706@kanarip.com> Message-ID: <64b14b300705160902o3ef6be92pe19a63a3a4f542f@mail.gmail.com> On 5/16/07, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > Valent Turkovic wrote: > > > > Can you also include this - a much better version of shutdown button > > than one fedora currently uses. > > > IMHO, a shutdown button is a shutdown button... it shuts your computer > down... if you want eye-candy (apart from whatever anyone subjectively > considers eye-candy), you shouldn't shut down the computer in the first > place. If you looked atleast at one desktop usabillity study you woldn't say such tings. Buttons matter to users, colors of buttons matter... the shape of buttons also matters... From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Wed May 16 17:23:13 2007 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 19:23:13 +0200 Subject: fedora 6/7 - why do you ignore k3b by default? In-Reply-To: <464ADFCE.7030308@nicubunu.ro> References: <64b14b300705150439s25e5738dqa61b9a28fed56ed3@mail.gmail.com> <4649A69F.8000302@nicubunu.ro> <64b14b300705160145p4c37eb3fn615bcac347b99d4d@mail.gmail.com> <464ACA78.4080903@nicubunu.ro> <64b14b300705160327xb159facqcd4ad50edc7f1492@mail.gmail.com> <464ADFCE.7030308@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <64b14b300705161023n7871b184k1c43174356491b48@mail.gmail.com> > It is not the best data source or users sample but have a look at > http://mugshot.org/applications > K3b is on the 71 place with 68 users, to put in perspective Firefox is > 1st with 4272 and gedit 7th place with 1569. As David said - 5000 users is hardly representative of overall fedora users. I use fedora from fc1 and I have never heard of Mugshot - and how many new users will use it even if they know about it? I guess not too many - and those who use it will be geeks, not your standard fedora desktop user. ps. I just signed up - and I LOVE IT! :) it is the best web 2.0 site I saw! Great work... and Mugshot app for fedora is also great! Love it ;) From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Wed May 16 17:29:53 2007 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 19:29:53 +0200 Subject: fedora 6/7 - why do you ignore k3b by default? In-Reply-To: <20070516124832.75d51f44@localhost.localdomain> References: <64b14b300705150439s25e5738dqa61b9a28fed56ed3@mail.gmail.com> <4649A69F.8000302@nicubunu.ro> <64b14b300705160145p4c37eb3fn615bcac347b99d4d@mail.gmail.com> <464ACA78.4080903@nicubunu.ro> <64b14b300705160327xb159facqcd4ad50edc7f1492@mail.gmail.com> <20070516124832.75d51f44@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <64b14b300705161029t3d62ccdao6cf95da61d8ee484@mail.gmail.com> > > Then tell me who uses only Gnome desktop and not a single app that > > uses qt widget set or vice versa. I can bet you won't find any. > > /me raises his hand Just because of this you should join this kinds of discussions :) You are too biased :) No purists are allowed to discuss desktop users and their behaviors :) > > I have two machines and they are strictly divided into Gnome/Xfce and > KDE. That's because I really really hate the mixed file dialogs and > handlings when putting all of them together. (Don't get me wrong: the > gtk file dialog is ok, the kde file dialog is great but I don't want > both of them in one session). Only my kde machine has some gtk apps > (and of course system-config-*). I don't see any harm in mixed dialogs... I see much greater problem when there is no app for burning on my system! I installed fedora 7 and there is no burning app on my system. How can I know that I have to go in nautilus to Go menue and then click on CD/DVD burning? Can you please explain that? There is no excuse for not at least putting a link to gnome menu for burn:/// and calling it "CD/DVD Burning application" From nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net Wed May 16 17:40:18 2007 From: nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net (Nicolas Mailhot) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 19:40:18 +0200 Subject: shutdown compared ubuntu vs fedora In-Reply-To: <64b14b300705160902o3ef6be92pe19a63a3a4f542f@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300705160430l52f33d27ha1669e22fd090206@mail.gmail.com> <464B09F4.9010706@kanarip.com> <64b14b300705160902o3ef6be92pe19a63a3a4f542f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1179337218.24939.0.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Le mercredi 16 mai 2007 ? 18:02 +0200, Valent Turkovic a ?crit : > If you looked atleast at one desktop usabillity study you woldn't say > such tings. > Buttons matter to users, colors of buttons matter... the shape of > buttons also matters... These problems are best discussed on the fedora-desktop & fedora-art lists -- Nicolas Mailhot -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Ceci est une partie de message num?riquement sign?e URL: From david at lovesunix.net Wed May 16 17:49:23 2007 From: david at lovesunix.net (David Nielsen) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 19:49:23 +0200 Subject: shutdown compared ubuntu vs fedora In-Reply-To: <1179337218.24939.0.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> References: <64b14b300705160430l52f33d27ha1669e22fd090206@mail.gmail.com> <464B09F4.9010706@kanarip.com> <64b14b300705160902o3ef6be92pe19a63a3a4f542f@mail.gmail.com> <1179337218.24939.0.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <1179337763.5116.32.camel@dawkins> ons, 16 05 2007 kl. 19:40 +0200, skrev Nicolas Mailhot: > Le mercredi 16 mai 2007 ? 18:02 +0200, Valent Turkovic a ?crit : > > > If you looked atleast at one desktop usabillity study you woldn't say > > such tings. > > Buttons matter to users, colors of buttons matter... the shape of > > buttons also matters... > > These problems are best discussed on the fedora-desktop & fedora-art > lists This is the Fedora-desktop list, I assume you meant upstream usability list? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Dette er en digitalt underskrevet brevdel URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed May 16 17:53:01 2007 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 09:53:01 -0800 Subject: fedora 6/7 - why do you ignore k3b by default? In-Reply-To: <64b14b300705161023n7871b184k1c43174356491b48@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300705150439s25e5738dqa61b9a28fed56ed3@mail.gmail.com> <4649A69F.8000302@nicubunu.ro> <64b14b300705160145p4c37eb3fn615bcac347b99d4d@mail.gmail.com> <464ACA78.4080903@nicubunu.ro> <64b14b300705160327xb159facqcd4ad50edc7f1492@mail.gmail.com> <464ADFCE.7030308@nicubunu.ro> <64b14b300705161023n7871b184k1c43174356491b48@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910705161053o76ccca8fx459d09550bc9b1d4@mail.gmail.com> On 5/16/07, Valent Turkovic wrote: > I use fedora from fc1 and I have never heard of Mugshot - and > how many new users will use it even if they know about it? > I guess not too many - and those who use it will be geeks, not your standard > fedora desktop user. First of all, you are making a pile of assumptions concerning what a "standard fedora desktop user" and what a "geek" is and assuming that "geeks" don't make up a majority of the installed userbase. This really needs to stop. You can not have sensible arguments predicated on your perception of what the average or standard or geek user is using. There are only two ways to approach a constructive conversation concerning things like what default applications should be from a user perspective. 1) Define a narrowly tailored definition of ideal usage/user scenario, that in no way claims to be typical or average. You haven't really laided out a case as to why k3b is needed as a default. Just because it has the most functionality (in your view) doesn't mean its the best choice to meet any specific functionality requirements in a targetted usage case. Maximum functionality is not a usage case. Once people agree that this usage/user scenario is worth targeting, then everyone can discuss application choices based on that usage/user. Compromises then are made to best satisfy the competing demands of all targeted usage/user scenarios and technical constraints resulting in a solution that may not be optimal for any specific scenario. 2) Discussion using statistically significant metrics concerning applications in wide use, to help determine what functionality the targeted usage scenarios isn't providing that is commonly needed in the real-world installbase. This sort of thing is very hard to do because until Mugshot started doing what Mugshot is doing, there's no metric on application usage. If you care about trying to gauge what the userbase is actually using (installing is not using), then you should definitely be looking very closely at what Mugshot is doing with application metrics. Mugshot is pretty much the only tool right now that can claim to give any systematic picture of relative application usage in the fedora userbase. If Mugshot can be enabled on enough systems to give a representative sampling of the install base, then its your best and only hope at having real metrics for application usage to mull over instead of personal perceptions. -jef"9 out of 10 Helen's agree, I miss grip"spaleta From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Wed May 16 17:53:07 2007 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 19:53:07 +0200 Subject: fedora 6/7 - why do you ignore k3b by default? In-Reply-To: <1179313457.29432.11.camel@animal.passback.co.uk> References: <64b14b300705150439s25e5738dqa61b9a28fed56ed3@mail.gmail.com> <464A0DB5.4060209@fedoraproject.org> <64b14b300705160137i6faa3662i1e5ebc16523c4afe@mail.gmail.com> <464AC68D.5080808@nicubunu.ro> <64b14b300705160310t1f6a2054i4f1fe49267e68078@mail.gmail.com> <1179313457.29432.11.camel@animal.passback.co.uk> Message-ID: <64b14b300705161053r69b81683naa6dc410df097845@mail.gmail.com> On 5/16/07, Keith Sharp wrote: > On Wed, 2007-05-16 at 12:10 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > >Its Open/Save dialogs > > > look strange and do not include the bookmarks available in all other > > > applications, the order of "OK"/"Cancel" buttons in dialogs is > > weird, > > > the menu structure is bad (instead of Edit > Preferences it have > > > Settings). I could go with this more and more > > > > Come on, are you really serious? > > Almost every app has differently places some buttons or menu... Try > > using some really different app like gaim ie. pidgin - what would you > > say to that app? > > The whole point of the GNOME HIG is so that all core GNOME applications > are consistent in look and feel. GAIM/Pidgin is not a core GNOME > application and makes little effort to follow the HIG, however if you > look at the UI for Gossip you will see an IM client that integrates far > better with GNOME. I haven't used gossip more that 6 months so in order to be up-to-date I just installed it. I don't see any better integration from gossip with Gnome in any case - I would say that they are both nicely integrated with Gnome desktop. Second thing is feature wise you can't even compare the two. Gossip is jabber client and gaim is general IM client. I use ICQ, jabber and other IM protocols. Gossip can't do anything beside jabber protocol. Plus gossip crashed 4-5 times before it connected to our local network jabber server!!! Gaim is much more stable! I prefer stability and features of gaim any time over gossip's "Gnome HIG compatibillity" and better "Gnome integration" - especially because gaim integrates great with the gnome desktop. > One of the reasons that Apple has been praised for its desktop is > because of the ruthless application of their HIG to all parts of the > system. This means that the learning curve for new users is > significantly lower. Ok. How many apps does apple have on a default OSX fresh installed desktop? I would say 100%. And when users customize the desktop I would dare to say that there is still 50% of Apple apps on average desktop and 50% of other software developers. How many apps are Gnome apps on default Fedora install? They probably all are gtk based but probably less than 30% are gnome. When users customize their desktops I guess this number falls drastically... Gnome can only apply it's HIG to it's apps and hope others do the same. But even with HIG there are some nonsenses in gnome like not being able to alt-tab when dragging a file with a mouse - why?!? So you can't expect Fedora to be in the same class as apple because Fedora doesn't make any of the core apps for "Fedora desktop" - also is also true for Gnome and KDE teams because they don't make Firefox and OpenOffice... Valent. From roguexz at gmail.com Wed May 16 17:56:51 2007 From: roguexz at gmail.com (Rogue) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 23:26:51 +0530 Subject: shutdown compared ubuntu vs fedora In-Reply-To: <1179337218.24939.0.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> References: <64b14b300705160430l52f33d27ha1669e22fd090206@mail.gmail.com> <464B09F4.9010706@kanarip.com> <64b14b300705160902o3ef6be92pe19a63a3a4f542f@mail.gmail.com> <1179337218.24939.0.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <464B45E3.4000203@gmail.com> Hi Nicolas, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > Le mercredi 16 mai 2007 ? 18:02 +0200, Valent Turkovic a ?crit : > > >> If you looked atleast at one desktop usabillity study you woldn't say >> such tings. >> Buttons matter to users, colors of buttons matter... the shape of >> buttons also matters... >> > > These problems are best discussed on the fedora-desktop & fedora-art > lists > > I am not an active poster on this thread, but I do believe that this would be the right list to discuss the OP's issue. Isn't this supposed to be the fedora usability list? If we do come to the agreement that an icon along with the text makes more sense, then we could request the art-team, or the team incharge to incorporate the changes. In the current dialog, I do see a certain usability hindrance. I am typically used to shutting down my laptop before heading to work. Recently when I wished to hibernate the system instead, I found myself taking the effort of reading the text to get to the action that I intended to perform. I am not stating that icons are useless. Just that, it is easier for a lot of people to associate an image with an action. If appropriate icons were made available, and if I had used those icons through the menu-items, then at one glance, I would know the button to click on (within the shutdown dialog). Regarding the question on the surrounding items being dimmed, I believe this is a feature that a lot of new generation applications are also taking up. I do not have the links to prove my point at the moment, but I shall do my research on get back to you on it. I *guess* the idea here is to gain the user's attention towards the action in question, but I may be wrong on this one :-) thanks, Rogue From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Wed May 16 18:07:33 2007 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 20:07:33 +0200 Subject: fedora 6/7 - why do you ignore k3b by default? In-Reply-To: <464ADFCE.7030308@nicubunu.ro> References: <64b14b300705150439s25e5738dqa61b9a28fed56ed3@mail.gmail.com> <4649A69F.8000302@nicubunu.ro> <64b14b300705160145p4c37eb3fn615bcac347b99d4d@mail.gmail.com> <464ACA78.4080903@nicubunu.ro> <64b14b300705160327xb159facqcd4ad50edc7f1492@mail.gmail.com> <464ADFCE.7030308@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <64b14b300705161107p258355a7p2284ffff6260a7a5@mail.gmail.com> On 5/16/07, Nicu Buculei wrote: > Valent Turkovic wrote: > > Have you been to real world recently? I suggest you walk around and > > look at other peoples desktops - and count how much of them are in > > mixed mode - KDE desktop + gnome apps or Gnome desktiops + KDE apps. > > > > Then tell me who uses only Gnome desktop and not a single app that > > uses qt widget set or vice versa. I can bet you won't find any. > > I already said I still use K3b (but I am looking for a change). And yes, > I have Scribus installed, but not use it even once in a month. > > It is not the best data source or users sample but have a look at > http://mugshot.org/applications > K3b is on the 71 place with 68 users, to put in perspective Firefox is > 1st with 4272 and gedit 7th place with 1569. k3b is the best rated cd burning app on that list (#70) with gnome-baker ranking as 94th and brasero on 102nd place. From nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net Wed May 16 18:08:29 2007 From: nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net (Nicolas Mailhot) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 20:08:29 +0200 Subject: shutdown compared ubuntu vs fedora In-Reply-To: <464B45E3.4000203@gmail.com> References: <64b14b300705160430l52f33d27ha1669e22fd090206@mail.gmail.com> <464B09F4.9010706@kanarip.com> <64b14b300705160902o3ef6be92pe19a63a3a4f542f@mail.gmail.com> <1179337218.24939.0.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <464B45E3.4000203@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1179338909.25231.9.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Le mercredi 16 mai 2007 ? 23:26 +0530, Rogue a ?crit : > > I am not an active poster on this thread, but I do believe that this > would be the right list to discuss the OP's issue. Isn't this supposed > to be the fedora usability list? It's the right list in theory. In practise since much of the people doing the work are on the art list, CC-ing them is required to get results and valuable input. Especially if you're talking icons and colours. (Conversely a lot of things that happen on the art list should be CC-ed there. Yes I know our organisation sucks.) Regards, -- Nicolas Mailhot -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Ceci est une partie de message num?riquement sign?e URL: From david at lovesunix.net Wed May 16 18:14:35 2007 From: david at lovesunix.net (David Nielsen) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 20:14:35 +0200 Subject: fedora 6/7 - why do you ignore k3b by default? In-Reply-To: <64b14b300705161053r69b81683naa6dc410df097845@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300705150439s25e5738dqa61b9a28fed56ed3@mail.gmail.com> <464A0DB5.4060209@fedoraproject.org> <64b14b300705160137i6faa3662i1e5ebc16523c4afe@mail.gmail.com> <464AC68D.5080808@nicubunu.ro> <64b14b300705160310t1f6a2054i4f1fe49267e68078@mail.gmail.com> <1179313457.29432.11.camel@animal.passback.co.uk> <64b14b300705161053r69b81683naa6dc410df097845@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1179339275.5116.39.camel@dawkins> ons, 16 05 2007 kl. 19:53 +0200, skrev Valent Turkovic: > I don't see any better integration from gossip with Gnome in any case > - I would say that they are both nicely integrated with Gnome desktop. > Second thing is feature wise you can't even compare the two. Gossip is > jabber client and gaim is general IM client. I use ICQ, jabber and > other IM protocols. Gossip can't do anything beside jabber protocol. > Plus gossip crashed 4-5 times before it connected to our local network > jabber server!!! Gaim is much more stable! I prefer stability and > features of gaim any time over gossip's "Gnome HIG compatibillity" and > better "Gnome integration" - especially because gaim integrates great > with the gnome desktop. I use Gossip for about 16 hours a day without a crash. It was also forked into the Empathy program to support Telepathy so we could get support for all manners of functionality including VoIP, Videoconferencing and naturally multiple IM protocols. Using Empathy I'm currently chatting on MSN and Jabber (only protocols I use currently), works fine - we should be able to offer users an improved communications experience with gar better integration and a more userfriendly interface in F8 using Empathy. - David -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Dette er en digitalt underskrevet brevdel URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed May 16 18:21:51 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 23:51:51 +0530 Subject: Fedora 8 - more user friendly updates? In-Reply-To: <64b14b300705160216y56ad87f4v808599a712f621c9@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300705150236i6cc22513y7483a25f9e70e302@mail.gmail.com> <64b14b300705160216y56ad87f4v808599a712f621c9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <464B4BBF.6020206@fedoraproject.org> Valent Turkovic wrote: > > I know that no matter what technical question I ask there is an > answer. I know about yum plugins... but the point is that in Ubuntu > there is a really nice gui and it is really intuitive. > You see there three choices, choose which kind of updates you want and > off you go. Use bugzilla.redhat.com to file RFE's. Rahul From roguexz at gmail.com Wed May 16 18:32:14 2007 From: roguexz at gmail.com (Rogue) Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 00:02:14 +0530 Subject: shutdown compared ubuntu vs fedora In-Reply-To: <1179338909.25231.9.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> References: <64b14b300705160430l52f33d27ha1669e22fd090206@mail.gmail.com> <464B09F4.9010706@kanarip.com> <64b14b300705160902o3ef6be92pe19a63a3a4f542f@mail.gmail.com> <1179337218.24939.0.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <464B45E3.4000203@gmail.com> <1179338909.25231.9.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <464B4E2E.2050900@gmail.com> > It's the right list in theory. > > In practise since much of the people doing the work are on the art list, > CC-ing them is required to get results and valuable input. Especially if > you're talking icons and colours. > Thanks for this info. I shall keep that in mind and try and subscribe that list too. > (Conversely a lot of things that happen on the art list should be CC-ed > there. Yes I know our organisation sucks.) > > I think that is an issue with huge organizations :-) ... Trust me, it ain't an organization fault. later, Rogue From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Wed May 16 18:35:16 2007 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 20:35:16 +0200 Subject: fedora 6/7 - why do you ignore k3b by default? In-Reply-To: <1179339275.5116.39.camel@dawkins> References: <64b14b300705150439s25e5738dqa61b9a28fed56ed3@mail.gmail.com> <464A0DB5.4060209@fedoraproject.org> <64b14b300705160137i6faa3662i1e5ebc16523c4afe@mail.gmail.com> <464AC68D.5080808@nicubunu.ro> <64b14b300705160310t1f6a2054i4f1fe49267e68078@mail.gmail.com> <1179313457.29432.11.camel@animal.passback.co.uk> <64b14b300705161053r69b81683naa6dc410df097845@mail.gmail.com> <1179339275.5116.39.camel@dawkins> Message-ID: <64b14b300705161135o6743ac0cm2629caa8ad7783da@mail.gmail.com> On 5/16/07, David Nielsen wrote: > ons, 16 05 2007 kl. 19:53 +0200, skrev Valent Turkovic: > > > I don't see any better integration from gossip with Gnome in any case > > - I would say that they are both nicely integrated with Gnome desktop. > > Second thing is feature wise you can't even compare the two. Gossip is > > jabber client and gaim is general IM client. I use ICQ, jabber and > > other IM protocols. Gossip can't do anything beside jabber protocol. > > Plus gossip crashed 4-5 times before it connected to our local network > > jabber server!!! Gaim is much more stable! I prefer stability and > > features of gaim any time over gossip's "Gnome HIG compatibillity" and > > better "Gnome integration" - especially because gaim integrates great > > with the gnome desktop. > > I use Gossip for about 16 hours a day without a crash. It was also > forked into the Empathy program to support Telepathy so we could get > support for all manners of functionality including VoIP, > Videoconferencing and naturally multiple IM protocols. Gossip works ok now... but for some reason it crashed a few times on account creation. > Using Empathy I'm currently chatting on MSN and Jabber (only protocols I > use currently), works fine - we should be able to offer users an > improved communications experience with gar better integration and a > more userfriendly interface in F8 using Empathy. Is there some repository I can use to install and test empathy with fedora 7? > - David > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > > From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed May 16 18:40:53 2007 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 10:40:53 -0800 Subject: fedora 6/7 - why do you ignore k3b by default? In-Reply-To: <64b14b300705161107p258355a7p2284ffff6260a7a5@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300705150439s25e5738dqa61b9a28fed56ed3@mail.gmail.com> <4649A69F.8000302@nicubunu.ro> <64b14b300705160145p4c37eb3fn615bcac347b99d4d@mail.gmail.com> <464ACA78.4080903@nicubunu.ro> <64b14b300705160327xb159facqcd4ad50edc7f1492@mail.gmail.com> <464ADFCE.7030308@nicubunu.ro> <64b14b300705161107p258355a7p2284ffff6260a7a5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910705161140p12e748e7x690aa40de7f0e6ce@mail.gmail.com> On 5/16/07, Valent Turkovic wrote: > k3b is the best rated cd burning app on that list (#70) with > gnome-baker ranking as 94th and brasero on 102nd place. I believe that nautilus-cd-burner, since its an extension to nautilus, isn't broken out of the stats for nautilus in mugshot. If that's true, then you have no way to compare usage the nautilus-cd-burner functionality to stand-alone burner apps. You might want to have a discussion with the mugshot developers about how they handle integration of nautilus extensions into their application stats. -jef From bpepple at fedoraproject.org Wed May 16 19:48:29 2007 From: bpepple at fedoraproject.org (Brian Pepple) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 15:48:29 -0400 Subject: fedora 6/7 - why do you ignore k3b by default? In-Reply-To: <1179339275.5116.39.camel@dawkins> References: <64b14b300705150439s25e5738dqa61b9a28fed56ed3@mail.gmail.com> <464A0DB5.4060209@fedoraproject.org> <64b14b300705160137i6faa3662i1e5ebc16523c4afe@mail.gmail.com> <464AC68D.5080808@nicubunu.ro> <64b14b300705160310t1f6a2054i4f1fe49267e68078@mail.gmail.com> <1179313457.29432.11.camel@animal.passback.co.uk> <64b14b300705161053r69b81683naa6dc410df097845@mail.gmail.com> <1179339275.5116.39.camel@dawkins> Message-ID: <1179344909.5813.22.camel@lincoln> On Wed, 2007-05-16 at 20:14 +0200, David Nielsen wrote: > ons, 16 05 2007 kl. 19:53 +0200, skrev Valent Turkovic: > > > I don't see any better integration from gossip with Gnome in any case > > - I would say that they are both nicely integrated with Gnome desktop. > > Second thing is feature wise you can't even compare the two. Gossip is > > jabber client and gaim is general IM client. I use ICQ, jabber and > > other IM protocols. Gossip can't do anything beside jabber protocol. > > Plus gossip crashed 4-5 times before it connected to our local network > > jabber server!!! Gaim is much more stable! I prefer stability and > > features of gaim any time over gossip's "Gnome HIG compatibillity" and > > better "Gnome integration" - especially because gaim integrates great > > with the gnome desktop. > > I use Gossip for about 16 hours a day without a crash. It was also > forked into the Empathy program to support Telepathy so we could get > support for all manners of functionality including VoIP, > Videoconferencing and naturally multiple IM protocols. > > Using Empathy I'm currently chatting on MSN and Jabber (only protocols I > use currently), works fine - we should be able to offer users an > improved communications experience with gar better integration and a > more userfriendly interface in F8 using Empathy. After F7 is released, I'll be pushing an update for gossip-0.24 which will support the use of the telepathy-plugins for those adventurous souls. Regarding Empathy I'm a little skeptical of it's readiness for inclusion in Fedora since it's only had 2 releases so far. ;) Later, /B -- Brian Pepple gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 810CC15E BD5E 6F9E 8688 E668 8F5B CBDE 326A E936 810C C15E -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jkeating at redhat.com Wed May 16 20:35:44 2007 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 16:35:44 -0400 Subject: fedora 6/7 - why do you ignore k3b by default? In-Reply-To: <1179332429.5116.19.camel@dawkins> References: <64b14b300705150439s25e5738dqa61b9a28fed56ed3@mail.gmail.com> <64b14b300705160148h104cd943x151f990e47a91e3c@mail.gmail.com> <1179332429.5116.19.camel@dawkins> Message-ID: <200705161635.45160.jkeating@redhat.com> On Wednesday 16 May 2007 12:20:29 David Nielsen wrote: > Because burning as functionality doesn't warrent a seperate application, > that is a historical design mistake made primarily because integration > was not possible in the desktops at the time when burners became > affordable for everyone. > > GNOME already provides me with burning functionality, burn an iso by > clicking it, want a music cd then create it in your music player (I use > Banshee but rhythmbox does this also) and so on. > > I'd opt for making the integration more visible rather than doing the > cope out of including a seperate application. We could extend f-spot if > it doesn't already support photoCDs so you could compile one directly in > your photo management application and likewise for other use cases which > to me seems like a much better ideal to strive for. +10. -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From david at lovesunix.net Wed May 16 22:42:15 2007 From: david at lovesunix.net (David Nielsen) Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 00:42:15 +0200 Subject: fedora 6/7 - why do you ignore k3b by default? In-Reply-To: <1179344909.5813.22.camel@lincoln> References: <64b14b300705150439s25e5738dqa61b9a28fed56ed3@mail.gmail.com> <464A0DB5.4060209@fedoraproject.org> <64b14b300705160137i6faa3662i1e5ebc16523c4afe@mail.gmail.com> <464AC68D.5080808@nicubunu.ro> <64b14b300705160310t1f6a2054i4f1fe49267e68078@mail.gmail.com> <1179313457.29432.11.camel@animal.passback.co.uk> <64b14b300705161053r69b81683naa6dc410df097845@mail.gmail.com> <1179339275.5116.39.camel@dawkins> <1179344909.5813.22.camel@lincoln> Message-ID: <1179355335.5116.52.camel@dawkins> ons, 16 05 2007 kl. 15:48 -0400, skrev Brian Pepple: > On Wed, 2007-05-16 at 20:14 +0200, David Nielsen wrote: > > ons, 16 05 2007 kl. 19:53 +0200, skrev Valent Turkovic: > > > > > I don't see any better integration from gossip with Gnome in any case > > > - I would say that they are both nicely integrated with Gnome desktop. > > > Second thing is feature wise you can't even compare the two. Gossip is > > > jabber client and gaim is general IM client. I use ICQ, jabber and > > > other IM protocols. Gossip can't do anything beside jabber protocol. > > > Plus gossip crashed 4-5 times before it connected to our local network > > > jabber server!!! Gaim is much more stable! I prefer stability and > > > features of gaim any time over gossip's "Gnome HIG compatibillity" and > > > better "Gnome integration" - especially because gaim integrates great > > > with the gnome desktop. > > > > I use Gossip for about 16 hours a day without a crash. It was also > > forked into the Empathy program to support Telepathy so we could get > > support for all manners of functionality including VoIP, > > Videoconferencing and naturally multiple IM protocols. > > > > Using Empathy I'm currently chatting on MSN and Jabber (only protocols I > > use currently), works fine - we should be able to offer users an > > improved communications experience with gar better integration and a > > more userfriendly interface in F8 using Empathy. > > After F7 is released, I'll be pushing an update for gossip-0.24 which > will support the use of the telepathy-plugins for those adventurous > souls. > > Regarding Empathy I'm a little skeptical of it's readiness for inclusion > in Fedora since it's only had 2 releases so far. ;) I've been giving it a good run for it's money, it's not bugfree but it's surprisingly stable given the that it's in the early stages of development. - David -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Dette er en digitalt underskrevet brevdel URL: From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Thu May 17 05:50:14 2007 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 08:50:14 +0300 Subject: fedora 6/7 - why do you ignore k3b by default? In-Reply-To: <64b14b300705161029t3d62ccdao6cf95da61d8ee484@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300705150439s25e5738dqa61b9a28fed56ed3@mail.gmail.com> <4649A69F.8000302@nicubunu.ro> <64b14b300705160145p4c37eb3fn615bcac347b99d4d@mail.gmail.com> <464ACA78.4080903@nicubunu.ro> <64b14b300705160327xb159facqcd4ad50edc7f1492@mail.gmail.com> <20070516124832.75d51f44@localhost.localdomain> <64b14b300705161029t3d62ccdao6cf95da61d8ee484@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <464BED16.7010102@nicubunu.ro> Valent Turkovic wrote: > > I don't see any harm in mixed dialogs... I see much greater problem > when there is no app for burning on my system! > > I installed fedora 7 and there is no burning app on my system. How can > I know that I have to go in nautilus to Go menue and then click on > CD/DVD burning? Can you please explain that? There is no excuse for > not at least putting a link to gnome menu for burn:/// and calling it > "CD/DVD Burning application" Make sure a box is checked in gnome-volume-properties and nautilus-burn is started when you insert a blank. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Thu May 17 05:55:16 2007 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 08:55:16 +0300 Subject: fedora 6/7 - why do you ignore k3b by default? In-Reply-To: <64b14b300705161053r69b81683naa6dc410df097845@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300705150439s25e5738dqa61b9a28fed56ed3@mail.gmail.com> <464A0DB5.4060209@fedoraproject.org> <64b14b300705160137i6faa3662i1e5ebc16523c4afe@mail.gmail.com> <464AC68D.5080808@nicubunu.ro> <64b14b300705160310t1f6a2054i4f1fe49267e68078@mail.gmail.com> <1179313457.29432.11.camel@animal.passback.co.uk> <64b14b300705161053r69b81683naa6dc410df097845@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <464BEE44.9080502@nicubunu.ro> Valent Turkovic wrote: > > Gnome can only apply it's HIG to it's apps and hope others do the > same. But even with HIG there are some nonsenses in gnome like not > being able to alt-tab when dragging a file with a mouse - why?!? > > So you can't expect Fedora to be in the same class as apple because > Fedora doesn't make any of the core apps for "Fedora desktop" - also > is also true for Gnome and KDE teams because they don't make Firefox > and OpenOffice... I don't get it: Fedora can't be in the same class as Apple and we should just stop trying? Fedora does not make the core apps indeed, but a lot of Fedora developers work upstream (or are even maintainers) on those applications. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net Thu May 17 09:00:22 2007 From: nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net (Nicolas Mailhot) Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 11:00:22 +0200 Subject: fedora 6/7 - why do you ignore k3b by default? In-Reply-To: <200705161635.45160.jkeating@redhat.com> References: <64b14b300705150439s25e5738dqa61b9a28fed56ed3@mail.gmail.com> <64b14b300705160148h104cd943x151f990e47a91e3c@mail.gmail.com> <1179332429.5116.19.camel@dawkins> <200705161635.45160.jkeating@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1179392422.30352.36.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> > On Wednesday 16 May 2007 12:20:29 David Nielsen wrote: > > I'd opt for making the integration more visible rather than doing the > > cope out of including a seperate application. There's zip reason a separate application can not be integrated. See sound-juicer in rhythmbox. All you need is to pass info from the picture/sound/whatever app to the burning app so it starts in the right mode without requiring the user to re-enter info. I'd rather have a full-featured integrated gnome burning app than a limited nautilus mode that forces users to search and install a non-integrated burning app as soon as they have non-trivial burning needs. You'll note that historically all the fancy integrated nautilus views have been replaced by dedicated apps in GNOME. Nautilus modes do not scale. They embark too much "file manager"-oriented garbage that clutters the UI and leaves no place for more task-oriented menus and widgets. -- Nicolas Mailhot -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Ceci est une partie de message num?riquement sign?e URL: From drago01 at gmail.com Thu May 17 11:35:57 2007 From: drago01 at gmail.com (dragoran) Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 13:35:57 +0200 Subject: Playing with Big Board In-Reply-To: <463F95A9.3000508@fedoraproject.org> References: <463F5AF2.80803@fedoraproject.org> <463F7E2F.4010702@redhat.com> <463F85FE.10109@fedoraproject.org> <1178541209.28657.22.camel@neutron> <463F95A9.3000508@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <464C3E1D.3010106@gmail.com> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Colin Walters wrote: > >> Keep in mind that the big board is intended to be part of the larger >> online desktop mode, and I think Mugshot fits pretty well for someone >> who mostly uses online apps. > > I am thinking that if we are going to have big board by default on F8 > the user experience should be better than or atleast comparable to > what we have already. it can be installed by default but not _enabled_ having a desktop that requires a net connection as default is a a very bad idea (and wrong too). From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Thu May 17 13:03:17 2007 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 15:03:17 +0200 Subject: fedora 6/7 - why do you ignore k3b by default? In-Reply-To: <1179392422.30352.36.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> References: <64b14b300705150439s25e5738dqa61b9a28fed56ed3@mail.gmail.com> <64b14b300705160148h104cd943x151f990e47a91e3c@mail.gmail.com> <1179332429.5116.19.camel@dawkins> <200705161635.45160.jkeating@redhat.com> <1179392422.30352.36.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <64b14b300705170603g6aa97ad7m70de1c4fa0cc176a@mail.gmail.com> On 5/17/07, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > > On Wednesday 16 May 2007 12:20:29 David Nielsen wrote: > > > > I'd opt for making the integration more visible rather than doing the > > > cope out of including a seperate application. > > There's zip reason a separate application can not be integrated. See > sound-juicer in rhythmbox. All you need is to pass info from the > picture/sound/whatever app to the burning app so it starts in the right > mode without requiring the user to re-enter info. > > I'd rather have a full-featured integrated gnome burning app than a > limited nautilus mode that forces users to search and install a > non-integrated burning app as soon as they have non-trivial burning > needs. > > You'll note that historically all the fancy integrated nautilus views > have been replaced by dedicated apps in GNOME. Nautilus modes do not > scale. They embark too much "file manager"-oriented garbage that > clutters the UI and leaves no place for more task-oriented menus and > widgets. Amen to that! :) Please don't thing users are satisfied with limited nautilus burning... if you do any study you will see they are not! From walters at redhat.com Thu May 17 16:38:40 2007 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 12:38:40 -0400 Subject: Playing with Big Board In-Reply-To: <464C3E1D.3010106@gmail.com> References: <463F5AF2.80803@fedoraproject.org> <463F7E2F.4010702@redhat.com> <463F85FE.10109@fedoraproject.org> <1178541209.28657.22.camel@neutron> <463F95A9.3000508@fedoraproject.org> <464C3E1D.3010106@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1179419921.15705.26.camel@neutron> On Thu, 2007-05-17 at 13:35 +0200, dragoran wrote: > Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > Colin Walters wrote: > > > >> Keep in mind that the big board is intended to be part of the larger > >> online desktop mode, and I think Mugshot fits pretty well for someone > >> who mostly uses online apps. > > > > I am thinking that if we are going to have big board by default on F8 > > the user experience should be better than or atleast comparable to > > what we have already. > it can be installed by default but not _enabled_ having a desktop that > requires a net connection as default is a a very bad idea (and wrong too). Online desktop will likely be a "spin" or something like that. I think it makes sense to continue having the developer/server/traditional desktop version of Fedora too. There will likely be cross pollination between them. As for the net connection, online desktop is targeted towards people for whom their computer is already basically a brick without at least a semi-reliable internet connection. Personally, if I couldn't get to gmail, wikipedia, online python docs, really just the web in general for an extended period of time about all I can do is code on stuff I already have installed and docs for, which is a pretty specific task. Online desktop isn't going to require an 100%-reliable connection as realistically it doesn't exist. In other words, things don't just fail if you don't happen to be connected that second. But the world is clearly moving towards internet mostly everywhere, in the form of wimax/mobile phone network/citywide wifi, and it makes sense to design for it. From kluge at fujitsu.com.au Fri May 18 00:58:09 2007 From: kluge at fujitsu.com.au (Steffen Kluge) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 10:58:09 +1000 Subject: shutdown compared ubuntu vs fedora In-Reply-To: <64b14b300705160430l52f33d27ha1669e22fd090206@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300705160430l52f33d27ha1669e22fd090206@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1179449889.18669.108.camel@syd0137.fujitsu.com.au> On Wed, 2007-05-16 at 13:30 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote: > It is much more usable, and user frendly - and it has logoff button > integrated in it and not separate (as it should also be on fedora > IMHO). I for one are no fan of lumping logout and shutdown together. They are fundamentally different tasks, at least if you come from a Unix background. As for suspend and hibernate and whatever else there may be in the future, the users shouldn't be made to choose between those every time they want to take their notebook for a walk. They should make their preferred choice once (in some preferences dialog), and then simply close the lid and walk off. Cheers Steffen. From skunkworx at verizon.net Fri May 18 05:15:21 2007 From: skunkworx at verizon.net (Skunk Worx) Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 22:15:21 -0700 Subject: fedora 6/7 - why do you ignore k3b by default? In-Reply-To: <64b14b300705150439s25e5738dqa61b9a28fed56ed3@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300705150439s25e5738dqa61b9a28fed56ed3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <464D3669.1050402@verizon.net> Valent Turkovic wrote: > Why isn't the best burning software on by default on new fedora 6/7 > installations? > > Is there some particular reason? I see k3b as the best cd/dvd burning > app and it should be installed by default IMHO. > > Also when it is installed by hand it still doesn't play well on Fedora > 6/7 desktops. > I posted a bug for it: > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=240097 > > Can you please give a bit more of much needed attention to k3b? > > Thank you very much. > Personally I'm glad they keep things to a minimum. It seems like every PC I've used for media mastering is a little odd. In general, I've found k3b and nautilus to be coaster ovens. I don't even bother anymore. For DVDs I use mkisofs and growisofs on the command line. For CDs I use xcdroast. --- John From roguexz at gmail.com Fri May 18 06:59:43 2007 From: roguexz at gmail.com (Rogue) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 12:29:43 +0530 Subject: shutdown compared ubuntu vs fedora In-Reply-To: <1179449889.18669.108.camel@syd0137.fujitsu.com.au> References: <64b14b300705160430l52f33d27ha1669e22fd090206@mail.gmail.com> <1179449889.18669.108.camel@syd0137.fujitsu.com.au> Message-ID: <464D4EDF.8070307@gmail.com> Hi Steffen, Steffen Kluge wrote: > As for suspend and hibernate and whatever else there may be in the > future, the users shouldn't be made to choose between those every time > they want to take their notebook for a walk. They should make their > preferred choice once (in some preferences dialog), and then simply > close the lid and walk off. > > This feature is already present in the power management options (available in both the task-bar and the preferences menu). > Cheers > Steffen. > > > From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Fri May 18 08:12:56 2007 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 10:12:56 +0200 Subject: fedora 6/7 - why do you ignore k3b by default? In-Reply-To: <464D3669.1050402@verizon.net> References: <64b14b300705150439s25e5738dqa61b9a28fed56ed3@mail.gmail.com> <464D3669.1050402@verizon.net> Message-ID: <64b14b300705180112p4db116d8m827c0102ebc3000f@mail.gmail.com> On 5/18/07, Skunk Worx wrote: > Valent Turkovic wrote: > > Why isn't the best burning software on by default on new fedora 6/7 > > installations? > > > > Is there some particular reason? I see k3b as the best cd/dvd burning > > app and it should be installed by default IMHO. > > > > Also when it is installed by hand it still doesn't play well on Fedora > > 6/7 desktops. > > I posted a bug for it: > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=240097 > > > > Can you please give a bit more of much needed attention to k3b? > > > > Thank you very much. > > > > Personally I'm glad they keep things to a minimum. It seems like every > PC I've used for media mastering is a little odd. > > In general, I've found k3b and nautilus to be coaster ovens. I don't > even bother anymore. > > For DVDs I use mkisofs and growisofs on the command line. > > For CDs I use xcdroast. > > --- I know that powerusers have milion an one way to bake a cake... but what message do you send to new users? DOn't use linux... it's not for you!?! k3b works great on all mine systems (3 laptops and 1 deskop with every hardware and linux distro mix you can think off). From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Fri May 18 08:17:29 2007 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 10:17:29 +0200 Subject: will there be a "cd/dvd burning application" in Fedora 7? Message-ID: <64b14b300705180117t5df13eddp1269df3070f3fa18@mail.gmail.com> Will there be a "cd/dvd burning application" in Fedora 7? I don't see any "cd/dvd burning application" in gnome menu after a clean Fedora 7 test 4 install. Why is that? I know nautilus has burning functionality - but usability wise it is terrible located and I can bet that no standard user will ever find it. Don't you do usability testing? Put a your mum, dad or some fiends and ask them do try and burn a dvd or cd... and watch what they do. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241 Skype: valent.turkovic From bnocera at redhat.com Fri May 18 08:22:55 2007 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 09:22:55 +0100 Subject: will there be a "cd/dvd burning application" in Fedora 7? In-Reply-To: <64b14b300705180117t5df13eddp1269df3070f3fa18@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300705180117t5df13eddp1269df3070f3fa18@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1179476575.4787.49.camel@cookie.hadess.net> On Fri, 2007-05-18 at 10:17 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote: > Will there be a "cd/dvd burning application" in Fedora 7? There's nautilus-cd-burner > I don't see any "cd/dvd burning application" in gnome menu after a > clean Fedora 7 test 4 install. Why is that? There is, it's nautilus-cd-burner > I know nautilus has burning functionality - but usability wise it is > terrible located and I can bet that no standard user will ever find > it. Ha! So why the rethorical questions? > Don't you do usability testing? Put a your mum, dad or some fiends and > ask them do try and burn a dvd or cd... and watch what they do. Please avoid flamebaits. If nautilus-cd-burner doesn't have a good interface, please write down the use cases, and explain the current workflow, then we can try to enhance it, and make it better for mum, dad and the friends. From bnocera at redhat.com Fri May 18 08:25:05 2007 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 09:25:05 +0100 Subject: fedora 6/7 - why do you ignore k3b by default? In-Reply-To: <464D3669.1050402@verizon.net> References: <64b14b300705150439s25e5738dqa61b9a28fed56ed3@mail.gmail.com> <464D3669.1050402@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1179476705.4787.53.camel@cookie.hadess.net> On Thu, 2007-05-17 at 22:15 -0700, Skunk Worx wrote: > Valent Turkovic wrote: > > Why isn't the best burning software on by default on new fedora 6/7 > > installations? > > > > Is there some particular reason? I see k3b as the best cd/dvd burning > > app and it should be installed by default IMHO. > > > > Also when it is installed by hand it still doesn't play well on Fedora > > 6/7 desktops. > > I posted a bug for it: > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=240097 > > > > Can you please give a bit more of much needed attention to k3b? > > > > Thank you very much. > > > > Personally I'm glad they keep things to a minimum. It seems like every > PC I've used for media mastering is a little odd. > > In general, I've found k3b and nautilus to be coaster ovens. I don't > even bother anymore. If you can, get yourself some CD-RW and file bugs. I don't see what nautilus-cd-burner would be doing differently from xcdroast in terms of burning. > For DVDs I use mkisofs and growisofs on the command line. nautilus-cd-burner uses growisofs as well, and burns directly to DVD with the latest versions. I'm not sure how n-c-b would work any differently from growisofs on the command-line. > For CDs I use xcdroast. From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Fri May 18 08:33:41 2007 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 11:33:41 +0300 Subject: will there be a "cd/dvd burning application" in Fedora 7? In-Reply-To: <1179476575.4787.49.camel@cookie.hadess.net> References: <64b14b300705180117t5df13eddp1269df3070f3fa18@mail.gmail.com> <1179476575.4787.49.camel@cookie.hadess.net> Message-ID: <464D64E5.1020600@nicubunu.ro> Bastien Nocera wrote: > > If nautilus-cd-burner doesn't have a good interface, please write down > the use cases, and explain the current workflow, then we can try to > enhance it, and make it better for mum, dad and the friends. If I put down a couple of use cases for writing multisession discs with nautilus-burn, I stand any chance to convince someone? I know the feature was talked in the past and rejected because blanks are very cheap these days. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Fri May 18 09:07:34 2007 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 11:07:34 +0200 Subject: will there be a "cd/dvd burning application" in Fedora 7? In-Reply-To: <1179476575.4787.49.camel@cookie.hadess.net> References: <64b14b300705180117t5df13eddp1269df3070f3fa18@mail.gmail.com> <1179476575.4787.49.camel@cookie.hadess.net> Message-ID: <64b14b300705180207w362e5c4cv8d4f89c776a8888a@mail.gmail.com> On 5/18/07, Bastien Nocera wrote: > On Fri, 2007-05-18 at 10:17 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > Will there be a "cd/dvd burning application" in Fedora 7? > > There's nautilus-cd-burner Nope there is not. Not in my "Application" menu. > > I don't see any "cd/dvd burning application" in gnome menu after a > > clean Fedora 7 test 4 install. Why is that? > > There is, it's nautilus-cd-burner I say again, there is not on my default Fedora 7 test 4 install. > > I know nautilus has burning functionality - but usability wise it is > > terrible located and I can bet that no standard user will ever find > > it. > > Ha! So why the rethorical questions? No it is not. It was a claim. In my application menu under gnome there is not any item called "cd burner" or nautilus cd burner... nothing. > > Don't you do usability testing? Put a your mum, dad or some fiends and > > ask them do try and burn a dvd or cd... and watch what they do. > > Please avoid flamebaits. I'm not throwing flamebaits. I would like you to picture yourselves as a new user who just installed his shiny new fedora 7 linux desktiop and wan't to burn some files to a cd or a dvd. This user called Pero has no idea that nautilus has burning option and concludes that this linux thing has no cd/dvd burning app installed. > If nautilus-cd-burner doesn't have a good interface, please write down > the use cases, and explain the current workflow, then we can try to > enhance it, and make it better for mum, dad and the friends. I don't plan to. I would like to see k3b or at least brasero installed by default on fedora desktops because you can't do anything but basic burning with nautilus - and that is just confusing. In current scenario you say to users use nautilus if you have simple burning tasks, and if you have anything more complex install some burning app and use that. And I can say that people I talked to, who are medium-advanced users from windows side just don't trust nautilus-burn or don't like it. Even if they need to burn just one file - the task nautilus-burn does perfectly - they still won't use it. If your plan it to make Fedora desktop more accessible to windows-switcher this argument is not you should be ignoring. I can argure that it is much better to say to users (by having it installed by default) - go and use k3b as it can do anything you can think off to a dvd or cd. In this case users use only one app - and get familiar with it from the start and don't have us use one in the beginning and then switch to using another when nautilus-burn outgrows their needs. If you are too strict on k3b being a qt app then use brasero instead - but use one at least. > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > From bnocera at redhat.com Fri May 18 09:22:34 2007 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 10:22:34 +0100 Subject: will there be a "cd/dvd burning application" in Fedora 7? In-Reply-To: <464D64E5.1020600@nicubunu.ro> References: <64b14b300705180117t5df13eddp1269df3070f3fa18@mail.gmail.com> <1179476575.4787.49.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <464D64E5.1020600@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <1179480154.4787.60.camel@cookie.hadess.net> On Fri, 2007-05-18 at 11:33 +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote: > Bastien Nocera wrote: > > > > If nautilus-cd-burner doesn't have a good interface, please write down > > the use cases, and explain the current workflow, then we can try to > > enhance it, and make it better for mum, dad and the friends. > > If I put down a couple of use cases for writing multisession discs with > nautilus-burn, I stand any chance to convince someone? > I know the feature was talked in the past and rejected because blanks > are very cheap these days. And also because there's no link between blank media (ie, in a specific drive) and the CD/DVD creator UI and there's no easy way to show the existing files differently in nautilus. From nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net Fri May 18 09:39:04 2007 From: nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net (Nicolas Mailhot) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 11:39:04 +0200 Subject: will there be a "cd/dvd burning application" in Fedora 7? In-Reply-To: <1179480154.4787.60.camel@cookie.hadess.net> References: <64b14b300705180117t5df13eddp1269df3070f3fa18@mail.gmail.com> <1179476575.4787.49.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <464D64E5.1020600@nicubunu.ro> <1179480154.4787.60.camel@cookie.hadess.net> Message-ID: <1179481144.5137.23.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Le vendredi 18 mai 2007 ? 10:22 +0100, Bastien Nocera a ?crit : > > > If nautilus-cd-burner doesn't have a good interface, please write down > > > the use cases, and explain the current workflow, then we can try to > > > enhance it, and make it better for mum, dad and the friends. nautilus-cd-burner tries too hard to be a file manager and as a result its task-oriented UI sucks, its menu entry is not in the right place, etc Something like brasero that reuses good parts of the nautilus file selector but is dedicated to burning without trying to be something else is much more user-friendly (not that brasero couldn't be improved a lot, but at least its basics are sound) -- Nicolas Mailhot -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Ceci est une partie de message num?riquement sign?e URL: From bnocera at redhat.com Fri May 18 09:43:07 2007 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 10:43:07 +0100 Subject: will there be a "cd/dvd burning application" in Fedora 7? In-Reply-To: <64b14b300705180207w362e5c4cv8d4f89c776a8888a@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300705180117t5df13eddp1269df3070f3fa18@mail.gmail.com> <1179476575.4787.49.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <64b14b300705180207w362e5c4cv8d4f89c776a8888a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1179481387.4787.75.camel@cookie.hadess.net> On Fri, 2007-05-18 at 11:07 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote: > On 5/18/07, Bastien Nocera wrote: > > On Fri, 2007-05-18 at 10:17 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > > Will there be a "cd/dvd burning application" in Fedora 7? > > > > There's nautilus-cd-burner > > Nope there is not. Not in my "Application" menu. You can see it in "Places" > > > I don't see any "cd/dvd burning application" in gnome menu after a > > > clean Fedora 7 test 4 install. Why is that? > > > > There is, it's nautilus-cd-burner > > I say again, there is not on my default Fedora 7 test 4 install. Same here. > > > I know nautilus has burning functionality - but usability wise it is > > > terrible located and I can bet that no standard user will ever find > > > it. > > > > Ha! So why the rethorical questions? > > No it is not. It was a claim. > In my application menu under gnome there is not any item called "cd > burner" or nautilus cd burner... nothing. It's under Places, again. > > > Don't you do usability testing? Put a your mum, dad or some fiends and > > > ask them do try and burn a dvd or cd... and watch what they do. > > > > Please avoid flamebaits. > > I'm not throwing flamebaits. I would like you to picture yourselves as > a new user who just installed his shiny new fedora 7 linux desktiop > and wan't to burn some files to a cd or a dvd. This user called Pero > has no idea that nautilus has burning option and concludes that this > linux thing has no cd/dvd burning app installed. Then the problem is about making it more discoverable, not adding a menu entry for another application. > > If nautilus-cd-burner doesn't have a good interface, please write down > > the use cases, and explain the current workflow, then we can try to > > enhance it, and make it better for mum, dad and the friends. > > I don't plan to. I would like to see k3b or at least brasero installed > by default on fedora desktops because you can't do anything but basic > burning with nautilus - and that is just confusing. What do you call advanced? Is it just multi-session discs? The only other thing you can't do with the default install is mixed CDs (audio + data), which I've never really seen used except commercially. > In current scenario you say to users use nautilus if you have simple > burning tasks, and if you have anything more complex install some > burning app and use that. What complex burning tasks? > And I can say that people I talked to, who are medium-advanced users > from windows side just don't trust nautilus-burn or don't like it. > Even if they need to burn just one file - the task nautilus-burn does > perfectly - they still won't use it. Why don't they trust it? It uses cdrecord and growisofs just like k3b does, so I'm not sure why one would be trusting one more than the other. > If your plan it to make Fedora desktop more accessible to > windows-switcher this argument is not you should be ignoring. We're not ignoring it, just that we don't know what the problem is, and you're offering a quick-fix, not something thought out with evidence to back it up. > I can argure that it is much better to say to users (by having it > installed by default) - go and use k3b as it can do anything you can > think off to a dvd or cd. In this case users use only one app - and > get familiar with it from the start and don't have us use one in the > beginning and then switch to using another when nautilus-burn outgrows > their needs. > > If you are too strict on k3b being a qt app then use brasero instead - > but use one at least. We don't want users to need to use k3b, or brasero. They can choose to install it afterwards (see the discussions about making installation of new software better). On thing I can think of for nautilus-cd-burner, is for the "CD/DVD creator" file manager window to show up in non-spatial mode, with a tree on the side, so it's easier to see the whole CD mastering tree. I filed this as: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=439388 and it would need changes to nautilus, gnome-volume-manager and gnome-panel. From bnocera at redhat.com Fri May 18 09:50:36 2007 From: bnocera at redhat.com (Bastien Nocera) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 10:50:36 +0100 Subject: will there be a "cd/dvd burning application" in Fedora 7? In-Reply-To: <1179481144.5137.23.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> References: <64b14b300705180117t5df13eddp1269df3070f3fa18@mail.gmail.com> <1179476575.4787.49.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <464D64E5.1020600@nicubunu.ro> <1179480154.4787.60.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <1179481144.5137.23.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <1179481836.4787.84.camel@cookie.hadess.net> On Fri, 2007-05-18 at 11:39 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > Le vendredi 18 mai 2007 ? 10:22 +0100, Bastien Nocera a ?crit : > > > > > If nautilus-cd-burner doesn't have a good interface, please write down > > > > the use cases, and explain the current workflow, then we can try to > > > > enhance it, and make it better for mum, dad and the friends. > > nautilus-cd-burner tries too hard to be a file manager and as a result > its task-oriented UI sucks, its menu entry is not in the right place, > etc > > Something like brasero that reuses good parts of the nautilus file > selector but is dedicated to burning without trying to be something else > is much more user-friendly (not that brasero couldn't be improved a lot, > but at least its basics are sound) Ok, let's compare this to the Apple burner UI (not their strong point, to be fair). To create a new data disk, other than the integrated "export" functions in iPhoto, iTunes, etc. you need to: - Open the Disk Utility - Create a new image of a certain size (will show up on the Desktop) - Drag'n'drop files using the file manager in the disk utility - Burn the image back in the Disk Utility What do you think of: - when blank CD/DVD is inserted, popup non-spatial nautilus window, with the sidebar tree rooted at CD/DVD creator - remove CD/DVD creator from the places menu - Add a "Master and burn CD/DVD" application entry in the system tools menu Would it make the task smoother? This is why I asked for use-cases and workflows, they're not just for show, they're useful. From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Fri May 18 10:05:16 2007 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 12:05:16 +0200 Subject: shutdown compared ubuntu vs fedora In-Reply-To: <1179449889.18669.108.camel@syd0137.fujitsu.com.au> References: <64b14b300705160430l52f33d27ha1669e22fd090206@mail.gmail.com> <1179449889.18669.108.camel@syd0137.fujitsu.com.au> Message-ID: <64b14b300705180305i4b865903o92ee43a211d6e48e@mail.gmail.com> On 5/18/07, Steffen Kluge wrote: > On Wed, 2007-05-16 at 13:30 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > It is much more usable, and user frendly - and it has logoff button > > integrated in it and not separate (as it should also be on fedora > > IMHO). > > I for one are no fan of lumping logout and shutdown together. They are > fundamentally different tasks, at least if you come from a Unix > background. When you say "unix" I hear "servers". Fedora should be more about desktop and user experience with this great desktop. You should look more towards the OSX than to unix in these matters. Look just what Apple has made with an "unix" system when they combined a great user experience. I still prefer Fedora to OSX, but I must say Fedora could do better it it borrowed some of the great solutions on OSX desktop. Different pieces should be logically grouped together even if the are for different tasks - that is done all the time - so I don't see any argument not to do it here. For a better desktop workflow for me it is nor logical to have two buttons - especially because you really have to look hard at them to make the distinction - and if you put them on gnome panel you have two buttons instead of one. To be more clear - I am talking about merging functionality of gnome panel buttons. In "System" gnome menu there is possibly a case for leaving them separate - but when I look at them now they look too similar - and it there wasn't text beside them I would have to give them a really hard look before deciding which button to push. From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Fri May 18 10:16:09 2007 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 12:16:09 +0200 Subject: shutdown compared ubuntu vs fedora In-Reply-To: <1179332034.5116.11.camel@dawkins> References: <64b14b300705160430l52f33d27ha1669e22fd090206@mail.gmail.com> <1179316902.3219.4.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <64b14b300705160900v7b9e2d7dwe60428783e66d8ad@mail.gmail.com> <1179332034.5116.11.camel@dawkins> Message-ID: <64b14b300705180316u14dd4ebal355ae2686eb41e29@mail.gmail.com> On 5/16/07, David Nielsen wrote: > ons, 16 05 2007 kl. 18:00 +0200, skrev Valent Turkovic: > > > The logout dialog is one of the best-hated derivations from upstream > > > that you can find in Ubuntu. > > > > Hated by whom? And why? Can you explain a bit? > > Pretty much anyone I've asked at least including myself. It's > non-sensical and looks out of place, if we need to redesign the upstream > dialog it should be done there with an eye to how the rest of the > desktop works and looks not in every distro. > I'm sure there's room for improvement in the default but the Ubuntu > dialog does not represent any significant added value. I can bet that you have read Debian statements when Ubuntu came out - they also concluded the same - but didn't bother to ask the users what they think or want. When Ubuntu came out the users answers were clear. From nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net Fri May 18 11:09:51 2007 From: nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net (Nicolas Mailhot) Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 13:09:51 +0200 Subject: will there be a "cd/dvd burning application" in Fedora 7? In-Reply-To: <1179481836.4787.84.camel@cookie.hadess.net> References: <64b14b300705180117t5df13eddp1269df3070f3fa18@mail.gmail.com> <1179476575.4787.49.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <464D64E5.1020600@nicubunu.ro> <1179480154.4787.60.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <1179481144.5137.23.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <1179481836.4787.84.camel@cookie.hadess.net> Message-ID: <1179486591.5137.72.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Le vendredi 18 mai 2007 ? 10:50 +0100, Bastien Nocera a ?crit : > What do you think of: > - when blank CD/DVD is inserted, popup non-spatial nautilus window, with > the sidebar tree rooted at CD/DVD creator unfortunately, won't work > - remove CD/DVD creator from the places menu yes > - Add a "Master and burn CD/DVD" application entry in the system tools > menu yes > Would it make the task smoother? This is why I asked for use-cases and > workflows, they're not just for show, they're useful. Ok, you asked for it. I apologize if a certain level of frustration and fury at the )@#! default GNOME solution leaks through. I'll only write about mastering random data disks since audio/video/picture disk mastering is likely to be launched from dedicated apps, which should pre-answer many questions and only call the burn app for the last burn stage Ideal solution: 1. have a "Master and burn CD/DVD" application entry in the system tools menu 2. the first time a new kind of blank is inserted, ask if the user wants to launch the app (and remember the answer even if it's "do nothing") 3. when the app is launched, display a multi-area single window with one part dedicated to selecting things to burn and the other showing the current to-burn disk composition. Pin the to-burn part so it never disappears from the screen 4. provide many sizing hints to help users fit data on disk. Biggest hurdle when burning things is making them fit. Examples: - size column in the file selector part so users see the size of what they can select (not in number of files, in number of bytes) - nero-like iso size gauge (showing the limits of the inserted blank, user-overridable with typical blank sizes) - baobab view of the to-burn selection, with a slice showing what space is left or what space needs to be removed to fit on one disk 5. if the selection is too big for one image, auto-split it on several disks (using smart date & hierarchy splitting so the split makes senses). Provide user feedback on the envisioned split (for examples using stripes of different colour for separate disk content in the to-burn area) 6. do auto-filtering of commonly filtered files (hidden & backup files, etc) but show the user what you're filtering and help him put some of them back in the disk image if he wants to burn them too (when you do a home backup you do not want to lose dotfiles/dirs). This can be done with a similar area to the to-burn area + user drag & dropping from one to the other 7. when the user selects burn : - propose to name the disk - propose to associate an icon to the disk - propose to add md5/sha1/sha256 file sums to the disk (and sign it using seahorse) - propose to chain-check this list after the burn (no intermediate dialog that kills unattended burning) - propose to chain-burn several disk copies Ideal user workflow : insert blank, drag & drop stuff in the burn area (with all the visual hints helping check everything is ok in real-time), press burn, name disks, go take a coffee. Because nautilus-cd-burner thinks it's a file manager not a burn app it fails this in numerous ways: 1. in spacial mode you are forced to interact with many windows (some bright person added a firefox-like blue burn line to avoid a separate menu/popup, but wasn't choked by the multi-window spacial requirement or the general unfitness of the nautilus UI to the task) 2. in non-spacial mode nautilus will just change folders and leave burning mode at the slightest opportunity because it didn't noticed we asked to burn things and just thinks we are browsing yet another folder 3. you have zip sizing help (again nautilus-cd-burner will apply common file manager rules and forget we are doing a specific task with specific constraints). And when you get to the burn stage you better hope the total size is burnable because the app is not going to help you 4. however you have a ton of unrelated menu items (emblems, shortcuts?) that clutter the UI and have no relevance for a burn task 5. you have zip checksumming/signing/verifying options, when scratched disks are a major user worry On the plus side nautilus is about as broken as the windows thing people are writing vengeful reviews about, so ex-windows users will happily note Linux is as broken-by-design as windows. Because apps like brasero or k3b are written to help users actually burn stuff (instead of trying to masquerade a file manager as a burning app) they are light-years ahead of the nautilus thing usability-wise. In the course of this review I had nautilus-burn die at least twice from to-burn selections it choked on. -- Nicolas Mailhot -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Ceci est une partie de message num?riquement sign?e URL: From skunkworx at verizon.net Sun May 20 20:42:02 2007 From: skunkworx at verizon.net (Skunk Worx) Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 13:42:02 -0700 Subject: fedora 6/7 - why do you ignore k3b by default? In-Reply-To: <64b14b300705180112p4db116d8m827c0102ebc3000f@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300705150439s25e5738dqa61b9a28fed56ed3@mail.gmail.com> <464D3669.1050402@verizon.net> <64b14b300705180112p4db116d8m827c0102ebc3000f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4650B29A.6080306@verizon.net> Valent Turkovic wrote: > On 5/18/07, Skunk Worx wrote: >> Valent Turkovic wrote: >> > Can you please give a bit more of much needed attention to k3b? >> > >> >> Personally I'm glad they keep things to a minimum. It seems like every >> PC I've used for media mastering is a little odd. >> >> --- > > I know that powerusers have milion an one way to bake a cake... but > what message do you send to new users? DOn't use linux... it's not for > you!?! > I don't think this message is being sent. The Fedora online help clearly explains how to write using the default gnome tools. One of the most common complaints about Linux is there are too many ways to do things. The Fedora KDE live-cd has k3b on it. It's kind of nice to have the option to try either desktop then decide to install your favorite on the hard drive. > k3b works great on all mine systems (3 laptops and 1 deskop with every > hardware and linux distro mix you can think off). > I'm not a power user, I had to google to see all the various problems people were having with reading and writing on various hardware and software platforms to learn how to deal with them. My experience differs from yours. Last year about 1/8 writers I tested had issues requiring firmware or software updates before they would reliably burn using...anything. --- John From kluge at fujitsu.com.au Mon May 21 02:01:48 2007 From: kluge at fujitsu.com.au (Steffen Kluge) Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 02:01:48 +0000 Subject: shutdown compared ubuntu vs fedora In-Reply-To: <64b14b300705180305i4b865903o92ee43a211d6e48e@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300705160430l52f33d27ha1669e22fd090206@mail.gmail.com> <1179449889.18669.108.camel@syd0137.fujitsu.com.au> <64b14b300705180305i4b865903o92ee43a211d6e48e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1179712908.18669.150.camel@syd0137.fujitsu.com.au> On Fri, 2007-05-18 at 12:05 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote: > You should look > more towards the OSX than to unix in these matters. Good idea. Sleep/Restart/Shutdown are separate from Logout in Mac OS X. Cheers Steffen. From kluge at fujitsu.com.au Mon May 21 02:09:36 2007 From: kluge at fujitsu.com.au (Steffen Kluge) Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 02:09:36 +0000 Subject: will there be a "cd/dvd burning application" in Fedora 7? In-Reply-To: <1179481836.4787.84.camel@cookie.hadess.net> References: <64b14b300705180117t5df13eddp1269df3070f3fa18@mail.gmail.com> <1179476575.4787.49.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <464D64E5.1020600@nicubunu.ro> <1179480154.4787.60.camel@cookie.hadess.net> <1179481144.5137.23.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <1179481836.4787.84.camel@cookie.hadess.net> Message-ID: <1179713376.18669.155.camel@syd0137.fujitsu.com.au> On Fri, 2007-05-18 at 10:50 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote: > Ok, let's compare this to the Apple burner UI (not their strong point, > to be fair). > > To create a new data disk, other than the integrated "export" functions > in iPhoto, iTunes, etc. you need to: > - Open the Disk Utility > - Create a new image of a certain size (will show up on the Desktop) > - Drag'n'drop files using the file manager in the disk utility > - Burn the image back in the Disk Utility Not true. On my Mac it works like this: - insert a blank CD, watch a blank CD icon appear on the desktop - double-click blank CD icon to open it as a Finder window (optional) - drag files into it (or onto the icon) - click burn. Disk Utility is not involved. Cheers Steffen. From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Mon May 21 07:57:43 2007 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Mon, 21 May 2007 09:57:43 +0200 Subject: shutdown compared ubuntu vs fedora In-Reply-To: <1179712908.18669.150.camel@syd0137.fujitsu.com.au> References: <64b14b300705160430l52f33d27ha1669e22fd090206@mail.gmail.com> <1179449889.18669.108.camel@syd0137.fujitsu.com.au> <64b14b300705180305i4b865903o92ee43a211d6e48e@mail.gmail.com> <1179712908.18669.150.camel@syd0137.fujitsu.com.au> Message-ID: <64b14b300705210057o7aa317f9n8e5d2def6ccbc47@mail.gmail.com> On 5/21/07, Steffen Kluge wrote: > On Fri, 2007-05-18 at 12:05 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote: > > You should look > > more towards the OSX than to unix in these matters. > > Good idea. Sleep/Restart/Shutdown are separate from Logout in Mac OS X. > > Cheers > Steffen. Come on Steffen, it is too easy to make a point when you take things out of context... i was speaking about apple in much wider terms, not to copy how they did this one thing. Logically Sleep/Restart/Shutdown and logout fit together. From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Thu May 24 20:10:35 2007 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 22:10:35 +0200 Subject: network profiles - do they work for you? they are broken for me! In-Reply-To: <464BB5DB.7030200@unb.ca> References: <64b14b300705160424r6d2a8a65ua4f76ab67275bfa2@mail.gmail.com> <464BB5DB.7030200@unb.ca> Message-ID: <64b14b300705241310i3c096f5dw911a6951789deadf@mail.gmail.com> Can you please look at my youtube video and then respond if I use system-config-network how it is not supposed to be used or if system-config-network is broken? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zoy9k5euZRQ On 5/17/07, John DeDourek wrote: > Valent Turkovic wrote: > > Hi, > > I tried using network profiles on my Fedora Core 6 and Fedora 7 > > systems and they don't work for me. > > > > Can you tell me if you use network profiles build into > > system-config-network and system-control-network tools? > > > > When I use gui system-config-network to setup network profiles no > > matter which one I choose and edit I end up with all the profiles with > > the same settings! > > > > I can't setup two different profiles! > > > > Can you please explain how do you use network profiles via > > system-config-network ? > > > > Thank you. > > > First, I am doing this from home, from memory, so I can't > give you exact wordings of menu items, nor exact location > of menus. But this general procedure works for FC5. I can't > at the moment verify it for FC6 or FC7. > > I use the following procedure. > --I leave the configuration of all the interfaces as installed > --I leave the contents of the default profile as installed > > When I want a new profile, say for my home lan, using the > GUI: > -- Make a "copy" of the appropriate lan interface > -- Edit the copy of the lan interface (leaving the original > alone); I usually change the name of the interface from > the "Copy of eth0" to something like "HomeLan"; I also edit > whatever other features I want to select for the home LAN, > e.g. static or dynamic IP, etc. > -- Create a new profile, say HomeLan; it doesn't bother me > to have a profile and interface named the same; however > if you find that confusing, name the interface "HomeLanIface" > and name the profile "HomeLanProfile" > -- Make sure only the appropriate interface (e.g. HomeLan" is > now checked from the profile (HomeLan) > -- Save it; (I think File->Save > You're done > > What is hapening behind the scenes: > > Each of those interfaces is a script file containing bash > variable assignments. You need a separate file for the LAN > interface for each profile, because they need to have different > values assigned to the variables. When you say that all the > profiles are the same, I am presuming that you are not making > a separate copy of the interface for each profile. So of course, > you are always essentially constantly changing the values in > the one and only interface file. These files are kept somewhere > like /etc/sysconfig/networking/devices/ > > Each of the profiles is a directory, I think under > /etc/sysconfig/networking/profiles/ In that directory is > a symbolic link to each of the "device" files that is > configured for that interface. > > When you switch profiles, the "device" files (which are > named something like "ifcfg-HomeLanIface") for the old > profile are deleted from /etc/sysconfig/network-scripts/ and > the "device" files for the new profile are copied in. > Actually, I think that's wrong; the scripts are probably not > copied, but links are created. I seem to recall that they > are hard links rather than symbolic links. > > BTW, if you use the commands /sbin/ifup and /sbin/ifdown rather > than the GUI to bring the interfaces up and down, use the > device name (interface name) that you created in the GUI, > not the Linux interface name as you would use it in > /sbin/ifconfig. That is, use > /sbin/ifup HomeLanIface > /sbin/ifdown HomeLanIface > > Hope this is useful to you. > > -- > fedora-list mailing list > fedora-list at redhat.com > To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list > -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241 Skype: valent.turkovic From kanarip at kanarip.com Fri May 25 08:55:13 2007 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 10:55:13 +0200 Subject: shutdown compared ubuntu vs fedora In-Reply-To: <64b14b300705210057o7aa317f9n8e5d2def6ccbc47@mail.gmail.com> References: <64b14b300705160430l52f33d27ha1669e22fd090206@mail.gmail.com> <1179449889.18669.108.camel@syd0137.fujitsu.com.au> <64b14b300705180305i4b865903o92ee43a211d6e48e@mail.gmail.com> <1179712908.18669.150.camel@syd0137.fujitsu.com.au> <64b14b300705210057o7aa317f9n8e5d2def6ccbc47@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4656A471.3090901@kanarip.com> Valent Turkovic wrote: > On 5/21/07, Steffen Kluge wrote: >> On Fri, 2007-05-18 at 12:05 +0200, Valent Turkovic wrote: >> > You should look >> > more towards the OSX than to unix in these matters. >> >> Good idea. Sleep/Restart/Shutdown are separate from Logout in Mac OS X. >> >> Cheers >> Steffen. > > Come on Steffen, it is too easy to make a point when you take things > out of context... i was speaking about apple in much wider terms, not > to copy how they did this one thing. > > Logically Sleep/Restart/Shutdown and logout fit together. > Come on, just like start -> shutdown -> logoff -> confirm? It looks to me you suggested earlier that I'm new to this world but desktop studies have shown that what is most important to users is that they can intuitively 'control' or 'use' the operating system -that includes that all software is there so when you insert a DVD it plays it, and when you connect a printer; you can print-. Anyway, back to my point. I don't know how eye-candy in the shut down dialog improves user experience in a way that makes shutting down a machine more intuitive. Now, if you're seriously considering an alteration to the shut down dialog, I suggest you put that idea upstream, because we are in-line with them. And so we should, because derivations gets you distro-specific desktops which won't make anyone any happier. In addition -this is just my personal opinion-, why do we even have a dialog? Didn't I just click 'Shut Down'? The machine should thus shut down, not ask me another question. Luckily, there is a default timeout, so the machine shuts down without user input after all. Now this is something I'd rather see different. *But I know why it's there* and I admit that for the general desktop user -not for me personally- it's an improvement. You could do the same, considering that you would like to see things different, but you know that when keeping in-line with upstream will improve upstream -and thus FOSS; even Ubuntu- if you put some effort where your mouth is, rather then complaining that derivate X looks better to you then in-line Y. IMHO there's no such thing as 'Do it different in Fedora' as far as upstream software is concerned -it breaks with upstream, we depend on them-. If we want things different, code flows into upstream source repositories. I'm sure there'll be more eye-candy in GNOME/KDE tomorrow, and even more the day after... If only we work with them, not derive from them. I bet this entire 'What should the shut down dialog look like?' discussion has already taken place, someone or some group has decided what to do and you're questioning them by saying it could improve the intuitiveness by looking different from what it looks now because the most derivative of distributions has changed the looks and you like it. You feel me? Kind regards, Jeroen van Meeuwen -kanarip From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Mon May 28 13:53:32 2007 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 15:53:32 +0200 Subject: shiny desktop, anyone? Message-ID: <64b14b300705280653t27134cbeyfc09d24b92f961da@mail.gmail.com> On 5/23/07, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Wed, 2007-05-23 at 16:39 +0800, Ken YANG wrote: > > as we see, suse 10.2 has the animation grub, it looks good. > > > > can fedora has this kind of grub? > > > > We (the desktop team) hope to get rid of the grub menu in the default > boot sequence instead of making it nicer. See > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureBetterStartup > Great! Go desktop team, go! :) I really believe that presentation of linux is one of the most important things... it must be shiny and preeeeety :) Nice kernel hacks and speedups are nice... but those are things that most desktop users don't care and don't know even exist... but they know good interface and nice boot grub screen when they see one. So please make grub as nice as possible... the test of Fedora is really nice... I really like it graphically wise. I can only share one comment of my apple osx friend who was an ex windows user after installing Fedora 6: "This looks like windows 98." And when I looked it from his perspective I saw he was right. Don't get me wrong I love Fedora theme... but when windows looks like osx I think Fedora needs also a little polish to make it shine... I saw UbuntuStudio theme, that is an other extreme... but still a good try. It is too dark an a bit too shiny... but I guess that that is what users expect to see. Just my 2c. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241 Skype: valent.turkovic From jim at duda.tzo.com Wed May 30 01:34:15 2007 From: jim at duda.tzo.com (Jim Duda) Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 21:34:15 -0400 Subject: Upgrade Issue FC5 to FC6 Message-ID: I recently upgraded to FC6 from FC5 via yum. All appeared fine for a few days. Today, my desktop was hosed. I finally figured out that I was missing the nautilus program. According to yum, nautilus was installed, however, the binary was missing from /usr/bin (maybe I deleted it accidentally somehow). Is there anyway to have yum scan all the rpms to make sure what should be installed is actually installed? Thanks, Jim From rstrode at redhat.com Thu May 31 01:14:10 2007 From: rstrode at redhat.com (Ray Strode) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 21:14:10 -0400 Subject: Upgrade Issue FC5 to FC6 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1180574050.2580.0.camel@halflap.boston.devel.redhat.com> On Tue, 2007-05-29 at 21:34 -0400, Jim Duda wrote: > I recently upgraded to FC6 from FC5 via yum. All appeared fine for a > few days. Today, my desktop was hosed. I finally figured out that I > was missing the nautilus program. According to yum, nautilus was > installed, however, the binary was missing from /usr/bin (maybe I > deleted it accidentally somehow). > > Is there anyway to have yum scan all the rpms to make sure what should > be installed is actually installed? If you do rpm -qVa it will mention any problems that it finds (in a weird format) --Ray From jim at duda.tzo.com Thu May 31 02:34:00 2007 From: jim at duda.tzo.com (Jim Duda) Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 22:34:00 -0400 Subject: Upgrade Issue FC5 to FC6 In-Reply-To: <1180574050.2580.0.camel@halflap.boston.devel.redhat.com> References: <1180574050.2580.0.camel@halflap.boston.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: Works perfect, just what I was looking for. Thanks for the response! Jim Ray Strode wrote: > On Tue, 2007-05-29 at 21:34 -0400, Jim Duda wrote: >> I recently upgraded to FC6 from FC5 via yum. All appeared fine for a >> few days. Today, my desktop was hosed. I finally figured out that I >> was missing the nautilus program. According to yum, nautilus was >> installed, however, the binary was missing from /usr/bin (maybe I >> deleted it accidentally somehow). >> >> Is there anyway to have yum scan all the rpms to make sure what should >> be installed is actually installed? > > If you do > > rpm -qVa > > it will mention any problems that it finds (in a weird format) > > --Ray > From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu May 31 02:48:39 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 08:18:39 +0530 Subject: Upgrade Issue FC5 to FC6 In-Reply-To: References: <1180574050.2580.0.camel@halflap.boston.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <465E3787.3000605@fedoraproject.org> Jim Duda wrote: > Works perfect, just what I was looking for. Thanks for the response! > > Jim > Also package-cleanup which is part of yum-utils can be useful. Rahul > Ray Strode wrote: >> On Tue, 2007-05-29 at 21:34 -0400, Jim Duda wrote: >>> I recently upgraded to FC6 from FC5 via yum. All appeared fine for a >>> few days. Today, my desktop was hosed. I finally figured out that I >>> was missing the nautilus program. According to yum, nautilus was >>> installed, however, the binary was missing from /usr/bin (maybe I >>> deleted it accidentally somehow). >>> >>> Is there anyway to have yum scan all the rpms to make sure what >>> should be installed is actually installed? >> >> If you do >> rpm -qVa >> it will mention any problems that it finds (in a weird format) >> >> --Ray >> > From mclasen at redhat.com Thu May 31 05:31:15 2007 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 01:31:15 -0400 Subject: Plans for the desktop beyond Fedora 7, status update Message-ID: <1180589475.3495.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> I thought it might be a good idea to catch the moment before the release of Fedora 7 to give a quick update on where we stand with respect to Fedora 8 features. I have also updated those feature pages with pointers to review bugs, etc, but here is a summary: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureBigboard Havoc and his team have been really busy, and there will be bigboard packages for people to play with when rawhide reopens. An online-desktop package which provides further integration is currently under review. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureCodecBuddy The codeina package is currently under review and should land in rawhide shortly. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureBluetooth Bastian has started to work on this; support for ObexFTP in gnome-vfs should land in rawhide tomorrow; and Bluetooth printer support is currently being integrated upstream. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeaturePulseaudio Not much visible progress yet, but we have begun to make pulseaudio work nicely with fast-user-switching. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeaturePolicyKit David has it all worked out in his head :-) Code should start to appear in the next few weeks... http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureBetterStartup We have started to prototype this, but there is not much to see yet, since we need modesetting in the kernel for this. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureNetworkManager http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureDriverBuddy Nothing new here yet. All in all, quite a few new things to expect in rawhide soon, together with Gnome 2.19... Matthias From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Thu May 31 05:57:21 2007 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 08:57:21 +0300 Subject: Plans for the desktop beyond Fedora 7, status update In-Reply-To: <1180589475.3495.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1180589475.3495.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <465E63C1.2020908@nicubunu.ro> Matthias Clasen wrote: > I thought it might be a good idea to catch the moment before the release > of Fedora 7 to give a quick update on where we stand with respect to > Fedora 8 features. I have also updated those feature pages with pointers > to review bugs, etc, but here is a summary: How about the superficial surface of the desktop, the artwork? Will it be again handled by the RH Desktop Team? Have you hired a replacement for Diana? Is that new person open to work in some way with the Art Team? -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Thu May 31 13:36:23 2007 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 15:36:23 +0200 Subject: Installing the Big Board part of online desktop In-Reply-To: <46279A85.4080101@redhat.com> References: <46279A85.4080101@redhat.com> Message-ID: <64b14b300705310636i6fa80b27ofd0611250b91b633@mail.gmail.com> On 4/19/07, Colin Walters wrote: > Hi, > > One thing we've been working on lately here on the Mugshot team is > prototyping part of what an "online desktop" would be. > For more information about the ideas behind the project, see Havoc's > blog entry: > > http://log.ometer.com/2007-04.html#3 > > If you'd like to try out the Big Board mentioned in that entry, see this > wiki page: > > http://developer.mugshot.org/wiki/Big_Board http://download.mugshot.org/extras/bigboard/bigboard.repo Forbidden You don't have permission to access /extras/bigboard/bigboard.repo on this server. Apache/2.0.52 (Red Hat) Server at download.mugshot.org Port 80 Can you please fix the issue or the bad link because I can't wait to test BigBoard - looks like fabulous project ! -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241 Skype: valent.turkovic From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Thu May 31 13:52:13 2007 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 15:52:13 +0200 Subject: Playing with Big Board In-Reply-To: <200705071421.32486.jkeating@redhat.com> References: <463F5AF2.80803@fedoraproject.org> <200705071308.29497.jkeating@redhat.com> <1178558045.9714.12.camel@dhcp83-33.boston.redhat.com> <200705071421.32486.jkeating@redhat.com> Message-ID: <64b14b300705310652x32cb7090gaac82ee72cfb9072@mail.gmail.com> On 5/7/07, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Monday 07 May 2007 13:14:05 Matthias Clasen wrote: > > It is not in fedora yet because getting stuff into Fedora is reasonably > > hard... Colins review request for the required hippo-canvas was stuff > > without a reviewer for a month before I reviewed and approved it, I > > guess Colin is now looking for a sponsor to get hippo-canvas in... > > Yes, sometimes finding a reviewer is not an easy task, especially if you don't > persue it at all. There is a HUGE queue of unreviewed packages. It takes a > little bit of effort to find a peer to review it for you. Can you explain to me how review process works or point me to some blog post about it? Who reviews packages that are in queue? Fedora members? Red Hat devels? Community? Is there anything the community can do to review these packages? And what does it exactly mean. Thank you all for your answers. Valent. -- http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/ linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241 Skype: valent.turkovic From davidz at redhat.com Thu May 31 14:04:35 2007 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 10:04:35 -0400 Subject: install pam_keyring by default in the GNOME based live cd? In-Reply-To: <1174294887.2699.4.camel@averatec> References: <45FDC5F7.6080808@fedoraproject.org> <1174259891.8053.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <45FDF88B.30706@fedoraproject.org> <1174294887.2699.4.camel@averatec> Message-ID: <1180620275.2702.9.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> Hi Jon, I'm replying to an old thread; see below. Is there any chance we can get pam-keyring in by default for Fedora 8? If yes, how about creating a Wiki page for the feature much like the ones Matthias created for other F8 bound features as mentioned here https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/2007-May/msg00167.html so we can track the progress and everyone can get an overview of what work is required etc. Thanks! David On Mon, 2007-03-19 at 10:01 +0100, Jon Nettleton wrote: > On Mon, 2007-03-19 at 08:12 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > Dan Williams wrote: > > > On Mon, 2007-03-19 at 04:36 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > >> Hi > > >> > > >> "PAM_KEYRING is a pam module that launches the > gnome-keyring-daemon and > > >> then unlocks a keyring using your login password." > > >> > > >> > http://www.hekanetworks.com/index.php/publisher/articleview/frmArticleID/25/staticId/31/ > > > > > > +1 > > > > We have two bugs open against pam_keyring now both of which are > very > > important to fix if we need to put this in by default. CC'ing the > > current upstream and Fedora maintainer > > > > * Should have an automated way to enable - > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=232857 > > * Make it possible to change keyring password - > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=212845 > > > > The first bug probably can fixed by adding rpm post installation > > scripts. The second bug currently requiring patching gnome-keyring. > > Well you guys caught me at a good time. I am on vacation this week and > one of the things I had planned was to finally push the next version of > pam_keyring. This version will have password changing support in it and > should close bug #212845. > > I also started working on mockups of system-config-authentication that > include a tab that would detect if you had pam_keyring or pam_ssh was > available and add check boxes to enable it at graphical login. Maybe I > will spend and hour or two and finish that up. Does that sound like a > good solution for bug #232857? > > Jon > From mclasen at redhat.com Thu May 31 16:28:03 2007 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 12:28:03 -0400 Subject: Plans for the desktop beyond Fedora 7, status update In-Reply-To: <465E63C1.2020908@nicubunu.ro> References: <1180589475.3495.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <465E63C1.2020908@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <1180628883.3480.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2007-05-31 at 08:57 +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote: > Matthias Clasen wrote: > > I thought it might be a good idea to catch the moment before the release > > of Fedora 7 to give a quick update on where we stand with respect to > > Fedora 8 features. I have also updated those feature pages with pointers > > to review bugs, etc, but here is a summary: > > How about the superficial surface of the desktop, the artwork? Will it > be again handled by the RH Desktop Team? Have you hired a replacement > for Diana? Is that new person open to work in some way with the Art Team? It is unlikely that we have a full-time graphical artist in the desktop team in time for F8; I think the discussion about how to best approach the F8 artwork should probably be had on fedora-art-list. Some points to consider: - We really need to clean up some of the artwork packaging - If we land the BetterStartup feature in F8, it should hopefully simplify a lot of the bootup graphics that have very specific requirements Matthias