From kwade at redhat.com Tue Aug 2 17:06:46 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 10:06:46 -0700 Subject: Agenda 2 August meeting Message-ID: <1123002406.5322.141.camel@erato.phig.org> Again, sorry about missing last week's meeting without notice. Here are the things on my mind for this week. Anything you want to discuss? * P2PW certainly motivated this group, but not a lot of noise on list, and not much else * Keep pushing to finish what you are working on * Buzz around documentation is still good, but where are the actual documents and writers? * Fact: 396 Non-digested Members of fedora-docs-list 174 Digested Members of fedora-docs-list * Question: What are all those people doing on the list? * Any last minute LinuxWorld thoughts? * ... [something from you] * AOB -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Tue Aug 2 21:08:32 2005 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 17:08:32 -0400 Subject: Schedule for meetings Message-ID: <1123016912.3405.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> A couple times recently we had problems making quorum for FDSCo meetings. Everybody at this week's meeting seemed to think it was worthwhile to float the idea of changing the schedule. Are there meeting times that people would find more convenient? Keep in mind we have committee members in the following time zones: British (GMT+1 right now) Eastern (GMT-4 " " ) Central (GMT-5...) Pacific (GMT-7) So we have an eight-hour span to cover, which is not easy. Some people have pre-existing obligations, and some can't meet during work hours. What say you all? Is there a reason to move the time, or should we take some other action, or none at all? -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Thu Aug 4 06:13:49 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2005 23:13:49 -0700 Subject: FDSCo 2 August 2005 IRC log Message-ID: <1123136029.6692.13.camel@erato.phig.org> Aug 02 13:11:35 Aug 02 13:11:45 Tuesdays have become problematic for me these days. Aug 02 13:11:49 G2: starting late, looking to see if there are enough in attendance or lurking. Aug 02 13:11:54 That's 4 Aug 02 13:12:18 Just got a new nx6110, so resizing NTFS with Knoppix Aug 02 13:12:28 stickster: ok, bring it up in AOB and we'll make sure to start a new thread. Aug 02 13:12:31 k Aug 02 13:12:41 G2: Knoppix STD has saved me a few times, it rox Aug 02 13:13:26 aye. need to keep XP Pro on for testing Samba PDC :-( Aug 02 13:13:34 Shouldn't that be "Knoppix SMA"? Aug 02 13:13:43 sorry, I'm pulling open windows, I got stuck in a bit of lunchtime traffic coming back to the office Aug 02 13:14:39 lunchtime there? Aug 02 13:14:42 megacoder: too obscure for me Aug 02 13:14:48 G2: 1:14 pm PDT :) Aug 02 13:14:59 SMA = Save my ... Aug 02 13:15:11 ah, hee Aug 02 13:15:23 CYA I know, of course Aug 02 13:15:36 SMA = Baby Milk here Aug 02 13:15:57 ok, so, howdy everyone Aug 02 13:16:09 I sent the agenda out this AM, it was actually ready at 3 am but I forgot to send it :) Aug 02 13:16:52 and now I can't pull it up Aug 02 13:16:59 someone help me with the first item ? Aug 02 13:17:08 * quaid kicks his VPN in the nards Aug 02 13:17:08 p2pw Aug 02 13:17:15 ah, right Aug 02 13:17:37 stickster: yes, there ya go, let's publish the yum mgmt as beta, why not Aug 02 13:17:52 or make it a release, since it's pretty well edited by this point Aug 02 13:18:04 as we don't have a proper beta process really Aug 02 13:18:07 right Aug 02 13:18:47 are there any other leftovers to publish or push? Aug 02 13:18:57 mirror-tutorial ;-) Aug 02 13:19:49 what does it need? Aug 02 13:19:58 Umm... editorial approval? Aug 02 13:20:15 I don't know if it made it through final review by you Aug 02 13:21:31 There was a question about missing procedures for current Core, but it turned out I hadn't pushed the latest stuff to CVS somehow Aug 02 13:21:35 It's there now Aug 02 13:21:50 I'd recommend publishing a beta and RFC Aug 02 13:22:10 ok Aug 02 13:22:58 how about this ... I'll take a look w/in the next 24 hours, at the end of that period, do you have time to publish it? Aug 02 13:23:08 yeah Aug 02 13:23:26 gives me a chance to practice my web-fu Aug 02 13:23:27 you can check everything in, and I can take a look at it before you tag it LIVE Aug 02 13:23:38 ok Aug 02 13:24:25 I'm slowly working on SELinux FAQ updates, nothing there yet. Aug 02 13:24:35 maybe I'll write down of the FAQs I get next week :) Aug 02 13:24:51 You need a scribe! Aug 02 13:24:58 does anyone else have any other docs that need a push? Aug 02 13:25:12 stickster: laptop and wifi Aug 02 13:25:20 ? Aug 02 13:25:32 stickster: at least I'll be able to keep notes wherever I wander Aug 02 13:25:37 :-) aye Aug 02 13:25:46 one last thing re: yum tutorial Aug 02 13:25:50 ok Aug 02 13:26:00 I would humbly offer that we remove the "keeping up to date" tutorial in favor of the new yum doc Aug 02 13:26:01 I think you could push it as a 1.0 Aug 02 13:26:27 how about, remove as in leave at URL but take down references/links to it? Aug 02 13:26:42 I was just about to write that, thanks for saving me the trouble Aug 02 13:26:42 i.e., is it historically accurate for FC1? Aug 02 13:26:56 Switching to audit mode; gotta run. Aug 02 13:27:01 ok Aug 02 13:27:17 Well, accurate somewhat... still questionable on the quality Aug 02 13:27:23 megacoder: audit this ... we'll discuss on list alternate meeting schedules. Aug 02 13:28:01 stickster: I don't like breaking URLs, if the information is inaccurate we can always ammend the page to say that it is out-of-date, out-of-scope, etc. Aug 02 13:28:23 stickster: might be another good test of your web-fu :) Aug 02 13:28:31 Right... I will revise the DocBook accordingly and you can include it in your review before tagging LIVE Aug 02 13:28:40 ok, humbly remove it Aug 02 13:28:45 Humbly thanks Aug 02 13:28:52 ready for next agenda item? Aug 02 13:29:20 Need a feed? The password is "Buzz" Aug 02 13:30:26 $listmembers/20 > $active Aug 02 13:31:18 well, yeah, about Aug 02 13:31:42 that was just my first start of thought, why all this attention for such little activity? Aug 02 13:31:51 Whose attention? Aug 02 13:32:01 Oh nm Aug 02 13:32:05 *slap* Aug 02 13:32:23 can we be doing more active recruiting? Aug 02 13:32:26 should we be? Aug 02 13:32:35 do we feel we have enough to offer? can we handle the influx? Aug 02 13:33:15 I'm confused -- doc writing is one of the easiest things to start in a solitary fashion. So where are all the drafts? Ideas? Aug 02 13:33:59 that's sort of how I feel Aug 02 13:34:45 Where are the drafts? Aug 02 13:34:59 I realize that I haven't started the real DocGuide overhaul yet, and digested our process into something easier for people to get their arms around... but... uh... yeah, what StillBob said Aug 02 13:34:59 Just getting weverything set up is a chore Aug 02 13:35:19 Where are the posts to the list asking us "how-to"? Aug 02 13:35:31 StillBob: not meant directed at you Aug 02 13:36:03 I have been reading about "mentors" this would be a great way to develope somethign like that Aug 02 13:36:20 I agree, no one seems to standup and write anything (including me) Aug 02 13:36:31 yes, actually, the docs project is a good mentoring opportunity, we move slow enough to spend time on that Aug 02 13:36:36 Someone to show a new member "the ropes" Aug 02 13:36:45 StillBob: I volunteer to mentor you Aug 02 13:36:47 :-) Aug 02 13:36:55 stickster: accepted Aug 02 13:37:10 StillBob: One condition -- let's keep all Q&A on the fedora-docs-list, in public where others can read it Aug 02 13:37:11 and I will mentor another when the time is right Aug 02 13:37:19 Maybe it will inspire other people to pipe up for help Aug 02 13:37:46 can we also chat and publish the results? Aug 02 13:37:59 Absolutely. Believe me, no question is going to get you kicked out, else quaid would have done that to me shortly after I started Aug 02 13:38:29 OK that is a staryt Aug 02 13:38:34 start Aug 02 13:38:38 "No, Paul," I said, "Red Hat does not supply the hookers and blow, you have to bring your own party favors." Aug 02 13:38:58 quaid: Thanks *SO* much for re-airing that dirty laundry Aug 02 13:39:07 LOL Aug 02 13:39:09 yeah, in IRC log forever, too Aug 02 13:39:34 so, back to the recruiting question ... Aug 02 13:39:35 I'll make sure to Google myself next time I'm teaching at a symposium Aug 02 13:39:39 right Aug 02 13:40:00 I tend to be a recruiting type Aug 02 13:40:02 StillBob: This helps me too, because the DocGuide is supposed to be a handy reference for newcomers... if helping someone can help me with reorganizing/rewriting bits of the DocGuide, so much the better Aug 02 13:40:20 stickster: Understood Aug 02 13:40:30 quaid: What about a msg to the list as a call to arms? Specifically inviting in the lurkers Aug 02 13:40:44 sure, why not? Aug 02 13:40:50 * quaid takes that action item Aug 02 13:41:03 I wonder how many of them are developers who just want to keep an eye on us Aug 02 13:41:04 enumerate the lower barriers, etc. Aug 02 13:41:16 they can write too Aug 02 13:41:21 too true Aug 02 13:41:28 there are people who have been interested, joined, and stopped there Aug 02 13:41:39 I'll also recruit next week, as I can Aug 02 13:41:44 Like me Aug 02 13:42:01 Yes, we even had a superbly qualified newcomer last month, whose name I can't recall Aug 02 13:42:07 former editor IRL Aug 02 13:42:12 we have some schemes to spend time with anyone who wants to work on Fedora, maybe some schwag to sweeten the experience. Aug 02 13:42:29 oh, lord, yeah, we've had a ton of new introductions Aug 02 13:42:42 we did discuss splitting up that list for personal contact, didn't we? Aug 02 13:42:59 hmm... can't recall but I don't remember getting an assignment out of it Aug 02 13:43:14 anything we can learn for tldp? Aug 02 13:43:20 maybe we could all take some names, write them directly, ask if they need anything and generally offer support Aug 02 13:43:25 s/for/from Aug 02 13:43:39 G2: probably, too bad mether is unavailable to wisen us Aug 02 13:44:05 stickster: no assignment most likely, a brainstorm idea Aug 02 13:44:08 quaid: yeah, put did you see the massive agrument about "roles" a while ago Aug 02 13:44:23 G2: in tldp? Aug 02 13:44:35 if yes, then no Aug 02 13:45:19 yeah. Massive debates/arguments a few months back Aug 02 13:45:45 ah, no, I don't keep track of the project really Aug 02 13:46:23 we should. It's the biggest/best Aug 02 13:46:48 good point Aug 02 13:47:43 what do you all think about each of us contacting the people who have self-intro'd? Aug 02 13:47:59 or would a single email to the list (from me?) be better? easier? well, duh, yes, easier ... Aug 02 13:48:29 Let's take the individual contacts as a plan B with a 7 or 14 day tickler Aug 02 13:48:41 seems reasonable Aug 02 13:48:54 Let's give some Bob<->me discussion time to flush people out into the open :-D Aug 02 13:48:59 I'm a charmer you know Aug 02 13:49:06 yeah. If I was a newbie, I'd like to e-mail by quaid personally Aug 02 13:49:20 I wait days for personal email from quaid Aug 02 13:49:35 I may start emailing some of the people who seemed likeliest Aug 02 13:49:43 stickster: keep waiting, I'm a slow responder ... Aug 02 13:50:03 Check back in June/July traffic for that gal who emailed the list, she seemed like a shoe-in to do some major docs damage Aug 02 13:50:30 yeah, fortunately g2's Wiki list is chronological Aug 02 13:50:48 Right -- Aha, nm, found it: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2005-July/msg00024.html Aug 02 13:52:01 quaid: want it changed? I might have missed some new ones. Been at home sick the past few days Aug 02 13:52:40 G2: don't think we've had any new ones, you've been very johnny-on-the-spot thanks! Aug 02 13:52:49 yeah G2, good job with that Aug 02 13:53:09 Just about the only thing I do do at the mo, so better be quick about it Aug 02 13:53:45 G2: did you say you were going to LinuxWorld London? Aug 02 13:54:14 Yeah. The OSC are going to. I might only be going to the FudCON day though Aug 02 13:55:03 Kara Prichard Aug 02 13:55:19 StillBob: *nod* see URL above Aug 02 13:55:50 G2: cool ... just or if Stuart is going, consider if you want to do something FDP related Aug 02 13:56:09 either a talk ... BoF ... recruiting ... Aug 02 13:56:12 yeah, could do. I should be there all day by myself (no family) Aug 02 13:56:29 yeah, in the US they don't let anyone under 18 on the floor of an expo, typically. Aug 02 13:56:32 no clue why Aug 02 13:57:18 Strange Aug 02 13:58:24 ok, that's good stuff on recruiting, we can revisit again in a couple of weeks to see how it's going. Aug 02 13:58:39 * quaid is mindful of time O'clock Aug 02 13:59:05 I'm willing to try to do the meeting from the Linuxworld floor next week :) Aug 02 13:59:10 Ha! Aug 02 13:59:48 Right, I'm off. Need to do my housewife duties ;-) Aug 02 13:59:52 aye Aug 02 13:59:53 All righty, bye G2 Aug 02 14:00:00 well, that's pretty much it Aug 02 14:00:11 the AOB item was checking on this as a meeting time Aug 02 14:00:12 k... I'll send a schedule query on f-dsco-l Aug 02 14:00:22 *zap* Aug 02 14:00:28 you got it Aug 02 14:00:30 *slap* Aug 02 14:01:49 all righty then Aug 02 14:01:57 -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stuart at elsn.org Sun Aug 7 21:39:38 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2005 22:39:38 +0100 Subject: Schedule for meetings In-Reply-To: <1123016912.3405.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1123016912.3405.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1123450778.4836.10.camel@Vigor10> On Tue, 2005-08-02 at 17:08 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > A couple times recently we had problems making quorum for FDSCo > meetings. Everybody at this week's meeting seemed to think it was > worthwhile to float the idea of changing the schedule. > > Are there meeting times that people would find more convenient? I can be available on a different weekday if it's useful to change the day, but can only really be on IRC between 7-10pm (GMT). As mentioned the previous week I had to be away on the 2nd, but Tuesdays aren't normally a problem for me. -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Aug 10 19:01:29 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 12:01:29 -0700 Subject: sorry (again) Message-ID: <1123700489.5264.17.camel@erato.phig.org> Sorry about missing the meeting without notice or cancellation. We got to the booth yesterday, and our FC4 DVDs hadn't arrived. Turned out they were never finished or shipped. Spot and I ran around San Francisco getting them burned, which is a story in itself. Anyway, see you next week. cheers - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Wed Aug 10 19:26:36 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 20:26:36 +0100 Subject: sorry (again) In-Reply-To: <1123700489.5264.17.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1123700489.5264.17.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <200508102026.36649.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> On Wednesday 10 Aug 2005 20:01, Karsten Wade wrote: > Sorry about missing the meeting without notice or cancellation. > > We got to the booth yesterday, and our FC4 DVDs hadn't arrived. Turned > out they were never finished or shipped. Spot and I ran around San > Francisco getting them burned, which is a story in itself. > > Anyway, see you next week. > > cheers - Karsten Damn, damn, damn. I completely forgot!!!! So sorry guys. I'll be there next week. -- Kind Regards, Gavin Henry. Managing Director. T +44 (0) 1224 279484 M +44 (0) 7930 323266 F +44 (0) 1224 742001 E ghenry at suretecsystems.com Open Source. Open Solutions(tm). http://www.suretecsystems.com/ From tfox at redhat.com Wed Aug 10 19:31:52 2005 From: tfox at redhat.com (Tammy Fox) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 15:31:52 -0400 Subject: sorry (again) In-Reply-To: <200508102026.36649.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> References: <1123700489.5264.17.camel@erato.phig.org> <200508102026.36649.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> Message-ID: <1123702312.5814.55.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-08-10 at 20:26 +0100, Gavin Henry wrote: > On Wednesday 10 Aug 2005 20:01, Karsten Wade wrote: > > Sorry about missing the meeting without notice or cancellation. > > > > We got to the booth yesterday, and our FC4 DVDs hadn't arrived. Turned > > out they were never finished or shipped. Spot and I ran around San > > Francisco getting them burned, which is a story in itself. > > > > Anyway, see you next week. > > > > cheers - Karsten > > Damn, damn, damn. I completely forgot!!!! > > So sorry guys. I'll be there next week. > Sorry too everyone. I was hope with a sick daughter and lost track of time. Tammy From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Mon Aug 15 20:46:48 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 21:46:48 +0100 Subject: Reminder for tomorrows meeting Message-ID: <200508152146.48926.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> Just to remind everyone and myself. Have we changed our timing yet? Still at 9pm? -- Kind Regards, Gavin Henry. Managing Director. T +44 (0) 1224 279484 M +44 (0) 7930 323266 F +44 (0) 1224 742001 E ghenry at suretecsystems.com Open Source. Open Solutions(tm). http://www.suretecsystems.com/ From kwade at redhat.com Tue Aug 16 01:49:01 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 18:49:01 -0700 Subject: Reminder for tomorrows meeting In-Reply-To: <200508152146.48926.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> References: <200508152146.48926.ghenry@suretecsystems.com> Message-ID: <1124156941.18963.97.camel@erato.phig.org> On Mon, 2005-08-15 at 21:46 +0100, Gavin Henry wrote: > Just to remind everyone and myself. Thanks! > Have we changed our timing yet? Paul started the subject, but no one else picked it up as being important to change the time. > Still at 9pm? Yes. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Aug 16 18:38:29 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 11:38:29 -0700 Subject: Agenda FDSCo meeting 16 August 2005 Message-ID: <1124217509.18963.160.camel@erato.phig.org> * Questions for Karsten about LWCE * Open if you have any * tidy-bowl deployment status * revisit howto, post to wiki? * anything else to do here * recruiting * how do others handle this? * mentoring * new program * we can be leaders here * propose that we contact self-intro'd people and offer to mentor them within the Fedora Project * only say "yes" if you have a little time for this * AOB -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Wed Aug 17 17:13:12 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 12:13:12 -0500 Subject: Remember, we have duplicate copies of xmlformat-fdp.conf Message-ID: <20050817121312.e0002708.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Paul, Keep in mind there are two copies of the xmlformat stuff in the CVS process. The copies in "CVSROOT/xmlformat-*" must be mirrored in the "docs-common/bin/xmlformat-*" so that authors can use the same normalize settings as the CVS server. I keep forgetting, too. Cheers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Aug 23 17:56:37 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 10:56:37 -0700 Subject: Agenda 24 August 2005 Message-ID: <1124819797.10409.27.camel@erato.phig.org> During our meeting today, I'm going to be listening on a conference call today, and I expect Mark will be in person at that meeting. I think we'll have no problems, but I wanted to let you all know I might get occasionally distracted. Things are hot enough right now that I don't want to postpone the meeting, too much to talk about. * Infrastructure status * Commit log scraper in Sopwith queue * We'll work together on developer participation * Trying MoinMoin save-to-DocBook first * Working on a menu/flag for BZ * Autobuild in Sopwith queue (docs rawhide) * Beta testing offered * Any other technical expertise needed? Other help? * Translation * Schedule sent out, ready to finalize * CVS for translators has started * Where files live, same directory? shared Makefile? * Brief update on the Fedora Foundation * Some supplement to the press releases * AOB -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Aug 23 21:55:34 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 14:55:34 -0700 Subject: Meeting IRC log 23 August 2005 Message-ID: <1124834134.10409.68.camel@erato.phig.org> most of this first one is me first is the commit log scraper, Sopwith has agreed to develop this tool refresher: this grabs CVS commit logs that have a keyword in them, and sends an email to relnotes at fedoraproject.org we can then sort them into relnotes beats or elsewhere (IG for example) one thing we need is, what keyword to use? we can start the developers doing this now, I think >sopwith< got a few minutes? or in a meeting, like me? fdsco is on #fedora-docs --- sopwith :No such nick/channel [scraper] relnotes is an easy keyword and fast to type [notethis] Use some punctuation around whatever is chosen something that shows it's special, so you can say 'relnotes' without triggering it yeah, that :) [relnotes] will that make people think, "this isn't good for the release notes," and not mark it? i.e., does the keyword limit the scope, even apparently? [docnotes]? [docme] yeah baby! ding ok bueno ok, I'll find out when we can announce this usage, soonest is bestest we want a good process going for FC6 :) any other thoughts on this? none here let's roll on to the evil Wiki word (j/k) you may have noticed that I am not warming up to Wiki, but have accepted some inevitability stickster: I'm opening the door for your opinion here quaid, can people other you get a copy of the mails being send to relnotes at fedoraproject.org? We want low barrier to entry... but the primary goal has to be *authoritative* documentation --> G2 (n=ghenry at mail.suretecsystems.com) has joined #fedora-docs and what do people think about having a release notes mailing list? mether: Yes, just tag your bugzilla account to track that email I think another list is overkill ya it does sound like a overkill to me even So back to wiki mether: yeah, just have your bugzilla account watch that account, that's how we do it cool. thanks for the info move on to the next topic Documentation is sensitive because it's very easy for bad docs to end up floating in the googlemind/internet memory Such as people reading a bad cache instead of the updated good doc that's always true, yes bad or outdated ones Sorry I am late. s'ok we're on the second item, Wiki and DocBook Ok. You were all late yesterday ;-) stickster: do you accept that we need to open up to all editing styles? can we make do by just having editors watch wiki changes? If we have to use a Wiki, I would like to see the Wiki used for drafting, and at publication time the doc leaves that forum and goes to an authoritative place I know everything is migrating to fedoraproject.org and away from fedora.redhat.com Nevertheless. .. that's just a URL Right, my point is that there needs to be a NON-wikiable place so that docs can not be goofed up after the drafting and editing is done stickster: you saw the cogent arguments Deb Richardson made Yeah, more participants makes more docs, for one Maybe I'm holding out... and she takes advantage of the many editors fixing those problems in real time if we have a forced workflow, we lose that immediacy and gain in quality first we need to figure out where we want that balance Look at our subproject goal: "Produce *high quality* documentation" I think it -has- to move away from where we've been, and somehow not compromise quality. what if ... we create the Docs Rawhide and it's two things: 1) raw CVS builds of what is in CVS 2) raw Wiki that hasn't been blessed or promoted we mark it all as such, make it as obvious as we can that it's draft or unperfected With a big disclaimer Question If it's on fp.org, does it not achieve a certain aura of authority? What happens when someone does a drive-by "throw over the wall" of a document that just sucks? Opinion disclaimer: nobody reads disclaimers. hey, megacoder hasn't said anything in a while is he still here ? megacoder: Precisely the problem elliss: go the critical docs need to be controlled by acl's and watched by key people who care about quality that's what promoted docs are so we can keep them in the Wiki Have you considered a restricted Wiki setup we have one big DocEditors group elliss: yes, exactly mether was looking at a knowledge base system ? i can imagine people messing up forbiddenitems page to spread out misinformation badly elliss, a preview is available from fedorausers.org with a implementation that i didnt recommend elliss, site is not launched yet we can have an ACL group anytime, I'll get spot to set up one mether: Is that an official Fedora site ? elliss, its supposed to be having a list of things that are not really FAQ but important enough elliss, no. its not elliss, but no point in competing with that effort now elliss: but it's supposed to be OK for us to link to it, iirc I see - solves a slightly different problem What about: NOT BEEN EDITED OR VERIFIED in the title heh when its launched Avatraxiom said he will consider linking to it from fedorafaq.org we already link to fedorafaq.org from the release notes now so it should work in tandem I just hate, hate, HATE the fact that there will be docs on an official site saying, essentially, "This may not be correct." stickster, inevitable really We might as well just let the bloggers control the information flow stickster: we have rawhide in such a fashion stickster, almost everything has disclaimers like that stickster: it's almost a stated goal of the project, in that cutting edge = may not work correctly everywhere stickster, we use such disclaimers in all of the software, kbase, docs . basically everywhere mether: which gets back to Tommy's statement, they'll be ignored There's a middle way we haven't considered go! quaid, true. OK, OK, I'll stop belly-aching elliss: tell us Look to Wikipedia for a model * quaid lol Every page has a named owner tcf: couldn't we put a big "NOT EVEN DRAFT" watermark in the stylesheets for these docs? "I WILL EAT ALL YOUR CHEESE" megacoder: watermarks can definitely be added to PDF elliss: yes, although I've also Wikipedia as a negative example, in that it is reportedly full of in-fighting by grammer fascists and pages reworked for political goals. megacoder: probably something we can add somewhere for HTML We pick the owners, though megacoder: not sure if the HTML version will look like a watermark per se though Wiki != anybody in the world Yeah, it's possible to add a background piccy. Hey waitaminit, I is a grammar fascist * quaid too :-) stickster: but we tend to agree, so no in-fighting :) That's just a choice elliss: ok, so wiki/Docs/* one has to be in the DocWriters group to edit there, and some docs are promoted to require DocEditors group to change (such as ForbiddenItems) Yes quaid: good, and perhaps we also need some way to get these docs into a straight XML format, and possibly even auto-provision of HTML/PDF The key point is ownership though (Subsuming PDF into the larger issue of any PDF of course) Wiki can become a mess because no own is responsible elliss: exactly So we make people responsible Big kahuna docs include: DocGuide, InstallGuide, UserGuide, DevGuide, TransGuide Just as we do with CVS Which has no ACLs at all... Gotta unexpectedly duck out. Monitoring... CVS does have the option of doing so, we just haven't put it in heavy rotation yet since no one seems to be doing anything stupid or mean Exactly Plus you have to have cvsdocs membership already Membership is restricted we're more likely to use ACLs in wiki Sure - it may be better than CVS stickster: yes, that's where the agenda item, MoinMoin can do some DocBook output we can use both a concept of ownership and ACL's we may have to add to it at that point ... mether: yes someone owns every page. senisitive pages have trusted group members sensitive* nman64 watches everything anyway Not quite what I meant well i am extending on that idea elliss, but go ahead and clarify if you want to I was really referring to checking the content for basic accuracy elliss, /before/ its published? technical accuracy? linguistic accuracy? Technical ah System breaking errors Heck, even just "not using the right tool" errors what about a legally sensitive page ? How many docs do you read that don't know how to use chkconfig and service? Wiki docs have to follow the same procedures *docs do you read, written by people that... one doesn't just "start a document" well, one does, but you know, it will get tagged with a disclaimer, etc. Need to bail out. Forgot about a DVD to be back by 10pm. Sorry guys np One of the sensitive pages could be a "common errors to avoid" page :) if someone starts a new page that is formal documentation, we contact them and bring them into the fold. Yeah, I guess understanding how we're going to turn this into good process is important that's key to our comfort level In a sense, the Wiki is ALL documentation Here's an good example to work on XenQuickStart Which, if you think about it, means we have to embrace it or we are de facto obsolete stickster: yep stickster: the community has moved beyond us here, we're trying to catch up some docs make much better sense as a wiki page but i would recommend we use wiki for all draft documentation nah use what you want that's the key the reason community moved to wiki is for easy access mether: it's just another editing and publishing medium it's interchangeable right, the same reason they use gnotepad or jedit You use what you want, and the eventual destination is going to be the Wiki or we make sure that we put it big bold letters that we accept documents in plain text or html rather than docbook Draft on the Wiki if you want, or don't... but if someone beats you to the Wiki, work with them mether: been trying i dont think we have done a good job on that mether: when you find somewhere that doesn't, I'll fix it mether: It's said in several different places, and EMPHASIZED... mether: should I email f-announce-list? :) I will, when we get the Wiki 'rules' worked out quaid, it doesnt hurt really yes quaid, making a announcement that we accept docs in all formats is important I have a plan for another "come write" email to f-announce, after we work out the wiki quaid, cc the docs list i see many people move to the wiki fedora news or else where for docs that really should be in the release notes or part of the documentation effort let me bring specific examples here I have a feeling that part of our job is going to become scouring the Wiki for poor English or sketchy instructions and rewriting them No, again Not that it's a problem http://fedoranews.org/mediawiki/index.php/Fedora_Weekly_News_Issue_1#Missing_Screensavers_in_Fedora_Core_4 this was something that should have been in the release notes or in an errata someone needed to tell the Xorg beat writer about it i filed a bug report but more importantly mether: We need to make a distinction between FAQ/relnotes and larger docs the potential authors would probably have jumped into a wiki or anything that was a easy process Though both might be on the same Wiki But with different processes elliss, well for FC4, it was definitely release worthy, from FC5 onwards it is probably a FAQ OK, I hate to be a schedule nazi, but this part of the discussion is dragging... there's more to cover and we all have other obligations... let's save discussion of "how to" make this process work for the docs-list... we all know what general direction we should head ok. i am pretty sure we all understand the needs just fine the approach is what needs to be discussed On the list... we have several hundred people who might like to participate in the discussion as well (dreaming) if we can discuss that on the list, thats fine stickster, well a few people recently put out very good ideas stickster, on the lurking thread mether: Great, that's what the list is for Moving on please... sure sure * quaid just finished his call as well ok, you all have read the menu/flag for BZ email, go ahead and comment in that bz report if you have thoughts our long-discussed autobuild idea (so cool that mether came up with it, too :) that we are calling Docs Rawhide is on Sopwith's list Is that something that will generate a {docme] type message? stickster: it puts relnotes@ on the Cc: for a bug report, that's all ok quaid, great. is it happening soon though? we need to route it to a beat writer (reassign) or a document tracker (such as IG material) quaid, the docs rawhide thingy i mean mether: dunno when quaid, i would love to see that happen no schedule set yeah, everyone would :) especially when we get more docs on cvs Or uh... on the wiki I'll offer our help to Sopwith stickster: which I want to be in CVS, too k stickster: I've asked Seth and Elliot to make the MoinMoin back- end save to XML in CVS, so docs we promote are really in CVS then. that would be beautiful i.e., the process to formalize a doc on the Wiki is more than just changing it's ACL group it means touching the XML (maybe), putting it in CVS and giving it a build structure, and making -that- the real Wiki page. that may not be the first thing we get ready, but that's what I envision. ok, next translation and doc schedule I am going to press the trans lead (Sarah) for a response today, as I want to make the schedule official for us soonest for those not on f-trans-l 2 November - test1 documentation freeze 7 November - test1 release 7 December - test2 documentation freeze 12 December - test2 release 4 January - test3 documentation freeze 9 January - test3 release 1 February - FC5 documentation freeze (final) 13 February - FC5 release so, the doc freeze is two days after devel freeze to give us time to get last minute stuff in the relnotes, and account for the dateline http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-trans-list/2005- August/msg00014.html there is the original message now, before I set this in stone, any thoughts? How exactly do we envision the docs included in FC5? Other than relnotes on CD1? stickster: Extras RPM? if we get it into extras, that's the first step to Core Well, that's a possibility I'm not saying it has to be so, but it could be so I would then say, a package can include either everything, or a special subset, or each doc gets it's own package. I'm either with you or ahead of you already ;-) so we would have a "FDP packaging project" of somekind ok, I'm all right with that, but someone has to do the work I volunteer but I'm sure if you stepped up, others might be interested The IG may be better alongside the Release Notes yes A good portion of this can be automated thanks to all the other work done by the Fedora Infrastructure and Extras honchos totally and they would be fun packages to have out there Eventually I want us to take over ownership of /usr/share/doc/HTML/index.html in Core one of the @redhat.com members can sponsor them for Core, if need be, but that probably won't happen We'll start with Extras, that's easy enough stickster: that is part of fedora-release package, aiui Right so, we do control it the content, anyway :) Should packaging be allowed for on the schedule ? Oh... I see, you're right! elliss: good point, it's not I think I can make a go at this for FC5 k Details TBD on list stickster: do we need more time in the schedule for packaging QA et al? oh, wait well, not wait no, wait jk just that we can't control translations so our packaging window is tighter by that we need to include a trans freeze that gives us time to package the trans, right? 2 nov is very soon Can we get away with one package for everything ? elliss: not a good idea IMOH *IMHO elliss, i think we can start with that and see if we hear complaints Let's discuss this on list please elliss, compress everything in the package and explode it using post install scripts stickster, ok <-- G2 has quit ("oops") it's after 5pm here, sorry guys, but I have to jet ciao tcf: bye, have a good one stickster: you too ok, I'll update the schedule and cross-post it the most important thing left is: CVS for trans and we can discuss that onlist, too on f-docs-l I guess <-- tcf has quit ("Leaving") yes that would appropriate megacoder: I'm going to ask about using a single Makefile for translation, so watch out for that thread, thanks all right anyone want to hear about whatever FF babble I have? or be done? Listening... FF, kick it cool I'm presuming you all read the updates that came out at LinuxWorld we are still waiting for by-laws from outside counsel, and are recruiting for the board of directors. so, the rest of this is my opinion on the state of things: RH has done a good job of making a good foundation, and it had to be done internally because of the same stuff that always makes us do stuff behind doors, however ... the community voices were strong from within by those of us representing the community, who are @redhat.com for example, when you see Mark Webbink quoted that "the developers and documentation have helped to shape the foundation" or whatever he said like that, that was me speaking for all of us, and hopefully doing it well enough. I noticed the reference to documenters :) once the foundation is in the wild, it's up to the board to decide where to proceed, so we will continue to have a way to influence the direction, and more chance to, and all in the open. I think the by-laws have done a good job of making foundation membership accessible and useful. last point, the foundation builds on what the project has been doing, so for example, what we are doing in FDSCo is now simply codified and formalized, so work in the project is going to continue pretty much as before. Is the foundation going to continue to allow fluidity in building process as we have been doing with FDSCo? You may have answered that, I'm just trying to get a sense of what interaction this entails * quaid contemplates a second in most ways, I think so, yes ... in this case, you mean s/foundation/board/ ... they own all governance, but have a charter (like ours) that allows them to delegate by forming steering committees (like us) and empower those committees. so, it's up to the board what they do at that point, but I figure a) they won't break what is working already, and b) they will likely want to leave as much up to us, in terms of details personally, I expect to see an _active_ board, although maybe not active at our level regularly, certainly available and accessible. *nod steering committee members are board members at some level? OK, that does help, thanks mether: I don't see how mether: I don't think it's quite like that You either are, or you aren't you never know. its legal stuff. it's more that steering committees are made up of members who serve at the board's will and can do tasks the board assigns them to do. mether: Sorry, I spend a lot of time worrying about this stuff for homeowners' association board mether: IANAL, but I reckon the board is the sole legal responsibility quaid, ok. does that mean that they have their own legal team? That's what I would expect I would expect the FF would engage one or more counsel yes, I would expect that ok all right... thanks for the update, it's going to be interesting yes if there is no other business ... One nope aye? Sending announcements via f-anonunce-list I sent an announcement and got the "passed to mods message" and it never came through? But it didn't seem to hit the list No, I sent it last Tuesday I forget, what was it about? yum doc oh, yeah! huh, must be a mistake I notice that stickster has posted a downloadable copy of the IG to the site sweet, huh? Very Fixed a bug, yo elliss, dont worry about that. i am posting it everywhere anyway >notting< did you see a f-announce-l moderated message from last week about the Fedora yum guide Cool. There's a thread on FedoraForums.... >notting< also, do you want some help from f-marketing to moderate that list? we could ask for volunteers, or do you prefer @redhat.com? elliss: I'm asking the moderator about it it still deserves an announcement, it's news OK. notting is listed as the mod elliss, i posted it atleast half a dozen time in the forums and lists speaking of which does anyone know how many hits the different docs gets unique links mether: Forum thread: http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=60292 mether: no clue mether: I asked one of the web folks about this; I'm not sure they log that much due to volume of activity Sorry, unclear: They don't keep track of it because doing so would involve additional load... at least that's how I understood it Yes. I think it was Elliot I reached out to, but not sure IIRC that would be valuable information i am sure authors would love to see stats on that It would be if we planned on axeing docs... not enough of them to prune just yet :-) elliss: notting may have bitbucketed it on accident, can you resubmit the message? he'll surely let it through this time/ elliss, that forum thread isnt interesting to me Sure. mether: I'll post on it. To close the request that was raised there I just thought I'd check whether you were going to elliss, sorry. do what? Is that all then? Yep * stickster pokes quaid and motions to gavel mether: When you said "everywhere", wasn't sure if you included this sticky on the forum ah, jeez -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Wed Aug 24 16:55:41 2005 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 11:55:41 -0500 Subject: Your membership has been approved Message-ID: <20050824115541.be1b96b5.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> It's just a nuisance really, but the "approved" message that gets posted contains _no_ information identifying exactly whom has just been approved. Can there be something added, even if it's just a system name, same as we get in the "waiting to be approved" mailing? Cheers -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Aug 24 23:53:07 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 16:53:07 -0700 Subject: Agenda 24 August 2005 In-Reply-To: <1124819797.10409.27.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1124819797.10409.27.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1124927587.10409.275.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 10:56 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > During our meeting today, I'm going to be listening on a conference call > today, and I expect Mark will be in person at that meeting. I think > we'll have no problems, but I wanted to let you all know I might get > occasionally distracted. Things are hot enough right now that I don't > want to postpone the meeting, too much to talk about. > > * Infrastructure status > * Commit log scraper in Sopwith queue Sopwith, can we pick a keyword today and start announcing the process? Or do we need to wait until the commit logs can be scraped in real time? Or can you parse the history for usage, if it predates the tools existence? > * We'll work together on developer participation > * Trying MoinMoin save-to-DocBook first > * Working on a menu/flag for BZ For the record (ftr), this is: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla-devel/show_bug.cgi?id=166310 - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Thu Aug 25 22:15:59 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 15:15:59 -0700 Subject: Meeting IRC log 23 August 2005 In-Reply-To: <1124834134.10409.68.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1124834134.10409.68.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1125008159.5522.36.camel@erato.phig.org> For those who missed it, here is a highlight of the state of the Fedora Foundation that I discussed. I have a follow-up that is inline below. On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 14:55 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > I'm presuming you all read the updates that came out at > LinuxWorld > we are still waiting for by-laws from outside counsel, and are > recruiting for the board of directors. > so, the rest of this is my opinion on the state of things: > RH has done a good job of making a good foundation, and it had > to be done internally because of the same stuff that always makes us do > stuff behind doors, however ... > the community voices were strong from within by those of us > representing the community, who are @redhat.com > for example, when you see Mark Webbink quoted that "the > developers and documentation have helped to shape the foundation" or > whatever he said like that, that was me speaking for all of us, and > hopefully doing it well enough. > I noticed the reference to documenters :) > once the foundation is in the wild, it's up to the board to > decide where to proceed, so we will continue to have a way to influence > the direction, and more chance to, and all in the open. > I think the by-laws have done a good job of making foundation > membership accessible and useful. > last point, the foundation builds on what the project has been > doing, so for example, what we are doing in FDSCo is now simply codified > and formalized, so work in the project is going to continue pretty much > as before. > Is the foundation going to continue to allow fluidity in > building process as we have been doing with FDSCo? The proper answer is, yes. The Board will appoint the Project Management Committees (PCM == FDSCo), and have control over firing the committee or members for whatever appropriate reason. Otherwise, the Board will stay out of the way and let the pros do what they do. In other words, once we are blessed, and we surely will be, we will continue exactly as before, but this time with a stronger structure to report into. > You may have answered that, I'm just trying to get a sense > of what interaction this entails > * quaid contemplates a second > in most ways, I think so, yes ... in this case, you mean > s/foundation/board/ ... they own all governance, but have a charter > (like ours) that allows them to delegate by forming steering committees > (like us) and empower those committees. > so, it's up to the board what they do at that point, but I > figure a) they won't break what is working already, and b) they will > likely want to leave as much up to us, in terms of details > personally, I expect to see an _active_ board, although maybe > not active at our level regularly, certainly available and accessible. > *nod > steering committee members are board members at some level? > OK, that does help, thanks > mether: I don't see how > mether: I don't think it's quite like that > You either are, or you aren't > you never know. its legal stuff. > it's more that steering committees are made up of members who > serve at the board's will > and can do tasks the board assigns them to do. > mether: Sorry, I spend a lot of time worrying about this > stuff for homeowners' association board > mether: IANAL, but I reckon the board is the sole legal > responsibility > quaid, ok. does that mean that they have their own legal team? > That's what I would expect > I would expect the FF would engage one or more counsel > yes, I would expect that > ok > all right... thanks for the update, it's going to be > interesting > yes > if there is no other business ... > One > nope > aye? > Sending announcements via f-anonunce-list > I sent an announcement and got the "passed to mods message" > and it never came through? > But it didn't seem to hit the list > No, I sent it last Tuesday > I forget, what was it about? > yum doc > oh, yeah! > huh, must be a mistake > I notice that stickster has posted a downloadable copy of the > IG to the site > sweet, huh? > Very > Fixed a bug, yo > elliss, dont worry about that. i am posting it everywhere > anyway > >notting< did you see a f-announce-l moderated message from last week > about the Fedora yum guide > Cool. There's a thread on FedoraForums.... > >notting< also, do you want some help from f-marketing to moderate that > list? we could ask for volunteers, or do you prefer @redhat.com? > elliss: I'm asking the moderator about it > it still deserves an announcement, it's news > OK. notting is listed as the mod > elliss, i posted it atleast half a dozen time in the forums and > lists > speaking of which does anyone know how many hits the different > docs gets > unique links > mether: Forum thread: > http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=60292 > mether: no clue > mether: I asked one of the web folks about this; I'm not > sure they log that much due to volume of activity > Sorry, unclear: They don't keep track of it because doing so > would involve additional load... at least that's how I understood it > Yes. > I think it was Elliot I reached out to, but not sure IIRC > that would be valuable information > i am sure authors would love to see stats on that > It would be if we planned on axeing docs... not enough of > them to prune just yet :-) > elliss: notting may have bitbucketed it on accident, can you > resubmit the message? he'll surely let it through this time/ > elliss, that forum thread isnt interesting to me > Sure. > mether: I'll post on it. > To close the request that was raised there > I just thought I'd check whether you were going to > elliss, sorry. do what? > Is that all then? > Yep > * stickster pokes quaid and motions to gavel > mether: When you said "everywhere", wasn't sure if you included > this sticky on the forum > ah, jeez > > -- > fedora-dsco-list mailing list > fedora-dsco-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-dsco-list -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From gdk at redhat.com Fri Aug 26 14:25:09 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 10:25:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Meeting IRC log 23 August 2005 In-Reply-To: <1125008159.5522.36.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1124834134.10409.68.camel@erato.phig.org> <1125008159.5522.36.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: Yes, F-Disco will be blessed as a formal project. Bet on it. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan On Thu, 25 Aug 2005, Karsten Wade wrote: > For those who missed it, here is a highlight of the state of the Fedora > Foundation that I discussed. I have a follow-up that is inline below. > > On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 14:55 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > > I'm presuming you all read the updates that came out at > > LinuxWorld > > we are still waiting for by-laws from outside counsel, and are > > recruiting for the board of directors. > > so, the rest of this is my opinion on the state of things: > > RH has done a good job of making a good foundation, and it had > > to be done internally because of the same stuff that always makes us do > > stuff behind doors, however ... > > the community voices were strong from within by those of us > > representing the community, who are @redhat.com > > for example, when you see Mark Webbink quoted that "the > > developers and documentation have helped to shape the foundation" or > > whatever he said like that, that was me speaking for all of us, and > > hopefully doing it well enough. > > I noticed the reference to documenters :) > > once the foundation is in the wild, it's up to the board to > > decide where to proceed, so we will continue to have a way to influence > > the direction, and more chance to, and all in the open. > > I think the by-laws have done a good job of making foundation > > membership accessible and useful. > > last point, the foundation builds on what the project has been > > doing, so for example, what we are doing in FDSCo is now simply codified > > and formalized, so work in the project is going to continue pretty much > > as before. > > Is the foundation going to continue to allow fluidity in > > building process as we have been doing with FDSCo? > > The proper answer is, yes. The Board will appoint the Project > Management Committees (PCM == FDSCo), and have control over firing the > committee or members for whatever appropriate reason. Otherwise, the > Board will stay out of the way and let the pros do what they do. In > other words, once we are blessed, and we surely will be, we will > continue exactly as before, but this time with a stronger structure to > report into. > > > > You may have answered that, I'm just trying to get a sense > > of what interaction this entails > > * quaid contemplates a second > > in most ways, I think so, yes ... in this case, you mean > > s/foundation/board/ ... they own all governance, but have a charter > > (like ours) that allows them to delegate by forming steering committees > > (like us) and empower those committees. > > so, it's up to the board what they do at that point, but I > > figure a) they won't break what is working already, and b) they will > > likely want to leave as much up to us, in terms of details > > personally, I expect to see an _active_ board, although maybe > > not active at our level regularly, certainly available and accessible. > > *nod > > steering committee members are board members at some level? > > OK, that does help, thanks > > mether: I don't see how > > mether: I don't think it's quite like that > > You either are, or you aren't > > you never know. its legal stuff. > > it's more that steering committees are made up of members who > > serve at the board's will > > and can do tasks the board assigns them to do. > > mether: Sorry, I spend a lot of time worrying about this > > stuff for homeowners' association board > > mether: IANAL, but I reckon the board is the sole legal > > responsibility > > quaid, ok. does that mean that they have their own legal team? > > That's what I would expect > > I would expect the FF would engage one or more counsel > > yes, I would expect that > > ok > > all right... thanks for the update, it's going to be > > interesting > > yes > > if there is no other business ... > > One > > nope > > aye? > > Sending announcements via f-anonunce-list > > I sent an announcement and got the "passed to mods message" > > and it never came through? > > But it didn't seem to hit the list > > No, I sent it last Tuesday > > I forget, what was it about? > > yum doc > > oh, yeah! > > huh, must be a mistake > > I notice that stickster has posted a downloadable copy of the > > IG to the site > > sweet, huh? > > Very > > Fixed a bug, yo > > elliss, dont worry about that. i am posting it everywhere > > anyway > > >notting< did you see a f-announce-l moderated message from last week > > about the Fedora yum guide > > Cool. There's a thread on FedoraForums.... > > >notting< also, do you want some help from f-marketing to moderate that > > list? we could ask for volunteers, or do you prefer @redhat.com? > > elliss: I'm asking the moderator about it > > it still deserves an announcement, it's news > > OK. notting is listed as the mod > > elliss, i posted it atleast half a dozen time in the forums and > > lists > > speaking of which does anyone know how many hits the different > > docs gets > > unique links > > mether: Forum thread: > > http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=60292 > > mether: no clue > > mether: I asked one of the web folks about this; I'm not > > sure they log that much due to volume of activity > > Sorry, unclear: They don't keep track of it because doing so > > would involve additional load... at least that's how I understood it > > Yes. > > I think it was Elliot I reached out to, but not sure IIRC > > that would be valuable information > > i am sure authors would love to see stats on that > > It would be if we planned on axeing docs... not enough of > > them to prune just yet :-) > > elliss: notting may have bitbucketed it on accident, can you > > resubmit the message? he'll surely let it through this time/ > > elliss, that forum thread isnt interesting to me > > Sure. > > mether: I'll post on it. > > To close the request that was raised there > > I just thought I'd check whether you were going to > > elliss, sorry. do what? > > Is that all then? > > Yep > > * stickster pokes quaid and motions to gavel > > mether: When you said "everywhere", wasn't sure if you included > > this sticky on the forum > > ah, jeez > > > > -- > > fedora-dsco-list mailing list > > fedora-dsco-list at redhat.com > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-dsco-list > -- > Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ > gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 > Red Hat SELinux Guide > http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ > From kwade at redhat.com Tue Aug 30 11:30:25 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 04:30:25 -0700 Subject: Agenda 30 August 2005 meeting Message-ID: <1125401426.17936.25.camel@erato.phig.org> Agenda: ======= 30 August 2005 meeting * Docs schedule * Discuss * Relnote beats * Active recruitment == we don't have to do the notes ourselves * Other ideas * Updates: * Wiki ACLs - patch applied to provide ACL inheritance - request in to apply ACLs to Docs/ and Docs/Drafts/ * Commit log keyword - proposal out to Sopwith - need to write up a page of what-to document, tips, etc. - introduce to developers - f-devel-l --> Sopwith? - internal --> Karsten? -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Aug 30 21:52:00 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 14:52:00 -0700 Subject: IRC log 29-AUG-2005 FDSCo meeting Message-ID: <1125438720.17936.91.camel@erato.phig.org> howdy everyone hello hiya well, now that we're done with the pleasantries how 'bout that schedule? If relnotes content wants to start by 24 Oct, probably need announcements in all the appropriate places s/start/freeze for FC5t1/ * mrj just joined mrj: howdy, lad g'day mrj: Welcome back Kotter stickster: ok, that's still me as the Voice o' Docs, unless anyone else is starting to feel like singing some arias? thx quaid: fully assigned here, thx :-) * quaid hums, "Yeah, they teased him a lot ..." * stickster finishes, "But we got him on the spot, welcome back!" * mrj hears, "Who'd a thought they'd need ya" fwiw, I'm not perfectly comfie with the HUGE LAG between content freeze and devel freeze. hi all. sorry late Indeed, it probably won't work for guides the link at the top of the notes doesn't help the version in the installer, so if there is any late-breaking installation related stuff, it's TFB elliss: I tried to give a week for trans for guides, which should be trans updates not from scratch. Won't the link point to what we can republish dynamically? Sorry if I'm dense * quaid TFB = Too F'ing Bad stickster: it will, but there is no way to get to the link from Anaconda quaid: From experience the big stuff hits in test2 I gotcha, sorry I guess you can lead the horse to water ... but you can't make them hand type the URL in another window. So finalising the guides before then may not be workable The thing we have going for us is that t3 -> final, almost nothing should really change anyway, it's better than what we've had, so that's always a selling point. elliss: I see elliss: in the RHEL world, we finish a guide and give it over for several weeks to be translated elliss: A good start might be getting a hold of the Anaconda team and asking them to bulletize a list for us of things they think are important to update for FC5 IG I'm interested in i) rolling translations posted, i.e., when they become available, they get posted to the Web, and ii) allowing trans teams to work as they see best, with a solid freeze they can rely upon to finish after. this is for the guides relnotes, best is trans within fedora-release package * quaid gives elliss the task to contact anaconda-devel We can try to nail down as much as possible, but we can't sign off on the IG until after t3, unfortunately are there any problems with this schedule? with the caveat that the appearance of guide content freeze for test1 might be premature. we could just lift that and not have a guide content freeze until test2? We are at the mercy of dev requirements I can help this time round. So changes may be reverted between t2 and t3 G2: Great, we're going to need it... :-) We can give preliminary guides, I guess We just can't give hard assurances to the trans guys that the content is final ok first question: do we -want- the guides to release with FC? that is a commercial requirement that bugs the living daylights out of me, every release :) Define "release with FC" i) on the day of The IG, yes - we want that on the CD if we can ii) in the week of iii) within several weeks of, rolling updates with announcements Other can be staggered I agree with elliss oh, oops, I mistaked then about the IG in terms of the schedule if we can get the IG out with the GOLD and on the CD, that's great it needs to track with the relnotes, for packaging we can since the others are online only, we can polish for a week before releasing 'zactly! which actually could be the week that FC is sitting in final tree format e.g. 1 Nov to 7 Nov. however Again, T1 doesn't mean much for the IG do the trans need to be on the CD? best, yes elliss: elliss: :) ok, let's start tracking for trans at t2? I'm happy to try right, it's only going to be as many trans as there can be To make this as unhard for the translators as we can elliss: if they can get the bulk translated in the time between now and then, the deltas could be less ... we need noriko or someone to help us know how that affects them tcf: I know they don't go for that traditionally, but that was with line based diffs if they can use an xml diff tool ... I don't know what bernd is doing there, I need to find out quaid: right, if we could give them real word diffs, they might go for it ok, we'll find out more about that I'll revise the schedule, too :) thirty more seconds for schedule talk? onwards Does stickster want packaging to be on the schedule ? it is allotted for, yeah I mean, I tried :) but it's not spelled out :-) :) is there enough time in there, you think? I'm looking at the time between content freeze and release... 01 Nov. Relnotes freeze for release (ISO) 02 Nov. Final ISO spin. Why would we want the relnotes in a package though? Are those now part of fedora-release? they are That's the place to keep them... I think repackaging them would probably be seen as wasteful and we need that day to be sure they don't blow up the package, our QA there is tight. IG package? IG, yes... The package is kind of secondary, there It's better if it's on the ISO so, uh, there isn't an Applications > Documentation menu? or can we put stuff there? elliss: oh, you mean in the root of the install tree? ah I think the idea was that we should try to take advantage of the "Help" on the Desktop menu, using scrollkeeper (GNOME) and yelp (KDE) And yes to elliss' thing about the ISO yelp is GNOME, btw Whoops... what's KDE's? are we doing an IG package then? i forget KHelpCenter scrollkeeper :-) yep scrollkeeper is for registration in the gnome help system, iirc Yes, I don't see why not I hadn't hoped to get anything in yelp et al, although we do have the XML so why the heck not, if someone wants to package it I'm gonna try, fer sure stickster: all docs? or just the IG? yum guide? IG, yum, jargon-buster, DocG, DevG(?)... others? cool Difficulty doesn't scale with the # of docs, fortunately :-) It sure would be cool to get the packagers-handbook up to snuff with the Wiki I see ignacio camping... I would think this would be a good way to subsume some of the content he presented sorry, OT... moving on --> Sopwith (n=sopwith at nat-pool-rdu.redhat.com) has joined #fedora-docs * mrj must leave, briefly --- mrj is now known as mrj_afk ... sorry :) recruiting for relnotes or we're going to have to do it again ourselves ;) ah :-) is this a discussion we all can participate in on f-docs-l? like, start a thread and try to get people to volunteer? and maybe someone besides me starts the thread ;-P This sounds like a job for G2 * quaid is thankfully prompted to assign tasks * stickster puts away cattle prod my weakness :/ G2: can you help prod the list with a discussion on recruiting beat writers? I think it's such a great way to get involved, and no one is jumping at it. it's like, total inner circle shit, you get to write release notes for Fedora! how cool is that? we have lots of this coolness to spread We ought to make sure that beat writers get recognized in the relnotes themselves "your name in lights" colophon! I was thinking just that all other docs, author at top is fine, but I think relnotes needs to have a list of contributors at the end. It's not cool if you're anonymous :) damn right I already have people email me (who know me IRL) saying they saw my name on the IG... I just want everyone to have that same warm fuzzy ;-D quaid: colophon, excellent idea * quaid bugzillas that ok, I'll make sure we get a ACK/NACK from G2 before we close moving on for now Wiki ACLs - seth applied a MoinMoin patch that allows children pages to inherit the ACLs from their parent it should go down the tree until it finds a manually placed #acl that breaks the chain hopefully the new #acl starts a new chain aye sorry. Sure which is what I'm counting on for Docs/ and Docs/Drafts/ to have diff. ACL roots G2: thanks, figured you were distracted for a sec :) this morning I asked seth to apply the #acls to those pages * quaid adds Docs.* to his subscribe list as always ok, it's not changed yet * stickster does same ok, commit log keyword, if Sopwith has anything to say about that, now is a good time Basically I want to suggest waiting until the script gets written - there may not be a single 'word' for example. G2: can you also take the task of starting a Wiki page of "when to use the [docme] and other what to document guidelines" Sopwith: ok, that was the main thing we wanted to know, if to wait, and we can many features for FC5 are already committed, we can't get those anyway, so the timing is not necc. crucial (?) docme? Sopwith: ok, we'll just get ready G2: sorry, I started at the end G2: we're looking to hvae developers insert one or more keywords in CVS commit logs G2: these get scraped and generate an email to relnotes at fp.org, and we sort them into appropriate relnote beats final questions for this meeting? any other important business? --- mrj_afk is now known as mrj One item you can always amend the agenda via email, I'll make sure we get time for the item that way elliss: go ahead Wiki > DocBook export We don't know the limitations skvidal said he'll test it for us, but that puts us in the Seth queue OK. The key issue is handling of subpages Because doc sections will probably have to be separate pages I can feel quite certain it won't output a the way we make them. right, sep. pages ok, fine. so sep. XML files for each sub page? I'm just guessing in MoinMoin, aiui, these are all just text files Yes so each page is a separate file look, let's be honest I've used MoinMoin, but only with the plain-text backend anyone who uses the Wiki to write something with s is going to regret it it's a short-tutorial, relnote section beat kind of tool quaid: hear, hear stickster: if someone does it, more power to 'em, but they won't, I'm sure of that :) agreed real books require real tools, etc. night all <-- G2 has quit ("oops") and if they do, they will regret it but it's a great place to write and maintain a tutorial, for a low entry cost gotta go too ciao have a good night <-- tcf has quit ("Leaving") tcf: bye, take care oops :-) she's fast! quite so, we're really only trying to convert Wiki >
with each subpage a
Yeah, it is really nice for being able to exchange ideas quickly and visibly but it would be hell to try and maintain anything past the draft level with it right I haven't had time to check the Wiki lately, I am happy with the progress being made on the new guides elliss: I'm not worried about the 2xml portion of things yet, and here's the reason: we don't have anything in the Wiki that we want in XML yet, and many tutorials we may not bother converting. it's more of a future option, and to allow for sets of tutorials to be bound into a guide. My interest here is starting the Admin Guide so, pages that go from Docs/Drafts/ to Docs/ are just going to be renamed Wiki pages, for now. ah, ic To go beyond a topic list I have to pick a tool what do the authors want to use? That's the issue of course Emacs + PSGML, all else is folly :-D CVS means doing it all myself Wiki may not stickster: you go, Curmudgeon Boy! Never by yourself... :-) quaid: Hush up or I'll cane you, whippersnapper elliss: can you identify a page in the current wiki that might make an interesting conversion? elliss: or several, enough to get Seth to test. XenQuickstart ah, right, you said that before, cool I've been updating it And getting feedback too.. So there's interest FedoraXenQuickstart ? --> mariusm (n=mariusm at modemcable051.52-131-66.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #fedora-docs yep that's it elliss: if you can break the admin guide down to a number of chapters, and make each a single Wiki root, then generate all your content there for a while ... elliss: I'll see what I can do about getting some sample XML output Well, so far I have a chapter list I could see the first draft being doable entirely in a Wiki, with a pretty mature draft at that point. What I'm not sure on is how to link section/wiki pages to tie together as a single doc ok, before I consider that point. elliss: I guess what happens automatically is up to this new facility... but if it outputs them separately, you can declare each file as an entity and include them in the main
page yes, to do the the XML our way is going to require a parent XML file, that pulls in the entities, legalnotice, etc. I'm going to end the meeting, with discussion to continue. elliss: I'll Cc: on email with Seth about the 2xml conversion tests -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: