From kwade at redhat.com Tue Feb 7 21:33:32 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 13:33:32 -0800 Subject: actions to OPL Message-ID: <1139348013.16883.12.camel@erato.phig.org> We'll roll with this plan from Greg: 1. Agree to OPL w/o restrictions. <== DONE Steps 2a-2c should happen pretty much simultaneously: 2a. Snapshot a list of all wiki users who have accounts *right now*. Make that list into a wiki page. Call it the "legacy wiki user OPL agreement page" or some such. Put a watch on the page. People who agree should put a little "check" or something on the page. With watch, we should be able to tell if someone is doing something wacky, like agreeing on behalf of other people. 2b. Add language that says "any content here is OPL content" to the account creation / login page, BIG AND BOLD so people can't miss it. (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/UserPreferences). 2c. Announce OPL policy -- and point legacy users to the "lwuOap" page, explaining how to agree to the new policy, and what to do if you don't (i.e. go and remove your edits.) 2d. Slap "OPL" on every single page in the footer. 3. Monitor the watch list for compliance. -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Content Services Fedora Documentation Project http://www.redhat.com/docs http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stuart at elsn.org Wed Feb 8 00:00:02 2006 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 00:00:02 +0000 Subject: actions to OPL In-Reply-To: <1139348013.16883.12.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1139348013.16883.12.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1139356802.2822.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2006-02-07 at 13:33 -0800, Karsten Wade wrote: > We'll roll with this plan from Greg: > > 1. Agree to OPL w/o restrictions. <== DONE > > Steps 2a-2c should happen pretty much simultaneously: > > 2a. Snapshot a list of all wiki users who have accounts *right now*. > Make that list into a wiki page. Call it the "legacy wiki user OPL > agreement page" or some such. Put a watch on the page. People who > agree should put a little "check" or something on the page. With watch, > we should be able to tell if someone is doing something wacky, like > agreeing on behalf of other people. > > 2b. Add language that says "any content here is OPL content" to the > account creation / login page, BIG AND BOLD so people can't miss it. > (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/UserPreferences). > > 2c. Announce OPL policy -- and point legacy users to the "lwuOap" page, > explaining how to agree to the new policy, and what to do if you don't > (i.e. go and remove your edits.) > > 2d. Slap "OPL" on every single page in the footer. > > 3. Monitor the watch list for compliance. OK. A few things occurred to me whilst fiddling about with the FAQ: - Relicensing the documentation in CVS to match. Easy for us to arrange, I guess. - Content on other Fedora Web sites, e.g. the separate Wiki that the Directory Server Project maintains. I don't know how this works... - Copyright: will the above give the Foundation joint copyright, or just an OPL license grant ? (e.g the kernel licensing is an example of licensing w/o copyright grant, and the issues that it may cause) - Communicating that the licensing is going to change before it is implemented. Sorry to keep harping on about communication, but there is a track record of stuff being done without enough communication, and causing unnecessary confusion, misunderstanding, and ill-feeling. I'd like to avoid all that, if it can be done. -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Feb 8 00:13:48 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 16:13:48 -0800 Subject: actions to OPL In-Reply-To: <1139356802.2822.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1139348013.16883.12.camel@erato.phig.org> <1139356802.2822.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1139357628.16883.65.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2006-02-08 at 00:00 +0000, Stuart Ellis wrote: > Sorry to keep harping on about communication, but there is a track > record of stuff being done without enough communication, and causing > unnecessary confusion, misunderstanding, and ill-feeling. I'd like to > avoid all that, if it can be done. You are right. How are these steps now? http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Licensing/StepsToOPL I am about to ask for a vetting from the Foundation board et al. I want their input on the FAQ -before- we make it widely known. One reason we are doing this discussion on IRC with logs and first here is to start the attention small, but grow it rapidly. It's working so far, I'm feeling almost ready to face the f-docs-l with this. :) - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Content Services Fedora Documentation Project http://www.redhat.com/docs http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stuart at elsn.org Wed Feb 8 00:17:54 2006 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 00:17:54 +0000 Subject: IRC Log Meeting 7 February 2006 Message-ID: <1139357874.2822.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> (21:10:08) quaid: (21:10:15) quaid: hey m'friends, how's the week going? (21:10:36) stickster: Scurrying, hurrying and worrying (21:10:47) quaid: aye (21:12:30) quaid: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/FedoraDocsSchedule (21:12:35) quaid: ok, so we had the slip last week of the schedule (21:12:46) quaid: I still haven't gotten the release-notes to build properly (21:13:00) stickster: Let me at it (21:13:03) quaid: sure (21:13:16) quaid: I think I need to maybe make the legalnotice* stuff real XML files (21:13:22) quaid: and xinclude them, too (21:13:31) quaid: the problem is "in" the fdp-info stuff (21:13:39) quaid: in that it has entities and the like (21:13:58) quaid: stickster: I'll check in what I have right now, as we move forward w/meeting (21:14:21) stickster: disco (21:16:23) megacoder: I guess everyone here is too cheap to have a paid lwn.net subscription? (21:16:24) stickster: Do we want to follow the list or just let it all hang out? (21:16:44) G2: megacoder: I am ;-) (21:16:45) stickster: Hey, I resemble that remark (21:17:12) ***quaid is supposed to be able to use an RH corporate sub, but can't get it to work for him (21:17:22) quaid: stickster: follow the list? (21:17:27) quaid: oh, the schedule (21:17:41) stickster: yup (21:17:59) quaid: we'll go down the list, why not, just move quickly (21:18:07) quaid: ok, OPL ... I haven't sent a draft of anything yet (21:18:15) quaid: but I did raise the question to Gregdek about the Wiki ... (21:18:22) stickster: relnotes == busy (21:19:20) ***quaid looks for that msg (21:20:48) quaid: here's his idea: (21:20:56) quaid: 1. Agree to OPL w/o restrictions. (21:21:02) quaid: Steps 2a-2c should happen pretty much simultaneously: (21:21:02) quaid: 2a. Snapshot a list of all wiki users who have accounts *right now*. Make (21:21:02) quaid: that list into a wiki page. Call it the "legacy wiki user OPL agreement (21:21:02) quaid: page" or some such. Put a watch on the page. People who agree should put (21:21:02) quaid: a little "check" or something on the page. With watch, we should be able (21:21:03) quaid: to tell if someone is doing something wacky, like agreeing on behalf of (21:21:05) quaid: other people. (21:21:07) quaid: 2b. Add language that says "any content here is OPL content" to the (21:21:09) quaid: account creation / login page, BIG AND BOLD so people can't miss it. (21:21:11) quaid: (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/UserPreferences). (21:21:15) quaid: 2c. Announce OPL policy -- and point legacy users to the "lwuOap" page, (21:21:17) quaid: explaining how to agree to the new policy, and what to do if you don't (21:21:19) quaid: (i.e. go and remove your edits.) (21:21:21) quaid: 2d. Slap "OPL" on every single page in the footer. (21:21:23) quaid: 3. Monitor the watch list for compliance. (21:21:25) ***quaid tickles nman64 here (21:21:39) quaid: we don't think we need to get any legal approval here, it's just actions that follow the legal directions we've been given already. (21:22:12) G2: looks good to me. (21:22:20) quaid: 2c worries me, though (21:22:29) quaid: it's impossible for anyone to remove their changes/content, I think (21:22:33) G2: Links to a summary of the OPL in case people haven't been following the list etc? (21:22:48) quaid: so, I think we cross the bridge when we get there ... if someone insists on not agreeing, we have to figure out what can be done. (21:22:59) quaid: G2: yeah, within 2c (21:23:02) stickster: You know *someone* will just to be cantankerous (21:23:03) G2: yeah. There will be one. (21:23:13) megacoder: Don't look a me ;-) (21:23:28) stickster: :-D You're too busy revolving!!! (21:23:31) quaid: if we get a lot of work because of this (21:23:46) quaid: I'm going to shout loudly at all the "let's just do the Wiki without thinking it through first" supporters (21:24:05) MicroBob [n=bob at pdpc/supporter/sustaining/BobJensen] entered the room. (21:24:36) elliss: We kicked around a OPL licensing FAQ when we discussed this perviously (21:24:42) elliss: previously (21:25:02) elliss: That should tackle most of the questions/compliants (21:25:15) elliss: complaints (21:25:29) elliss: I need sleep... (21:25:32) quaid: elliss: did we get any draft going? (21:25:34) quaid: I forget (21:25:39) elliss: Yes (21:25:48) stickster: elliss: You sent something to the list, didn't you? (21:25:54) stickster: Or was it wiki? (21:26:01) elliss: It was a PM attachment (21:26:08) elliss: In MoinMoin format (21:26:46) elliss: It'll be somewhere in my mail folders... (21:26:48) quaid: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/OPL/FAQ (21:26:53) G2: cool (21:26:55) quaid: is that a sane namespace? (21:27:03) quaid: i mean, can you put it there, if that's a good name :) (21:27:10) elliss: Licensing/FAQ ? (21:27:24) quaid: yeah (21:27:35) G2: looks fine (21:27:38) elliss: Or DocsProject/Licensing/FAQ ? (21:27:43) quaid: yes (21:27:50) quaid: DocsProject/ first (21:27:59) elliss: OK. (21:28:41) ***quaid moves DocsProject/OPLDiscussion -> DocsProject/Licensing/Discussion (21:30:13) quaid: ok, I'll send out an action plan to f-dsco-l right now (21:30:36) stickster: k (21:31:10) MicroBob: quaid can you verify i am on that list please (21:32:12) stickster: nman64: Can we get the webtest.f.r.c to also do a "make rpm" and "make spec" for doc modules there (21:32:35) nman64: That should be possible. (21:32:43) stickster: nman64: This gives us a canonical location to send FE reviewers for .spec and .src.rpm files (21:32:44) quaid: MicroBob: affirm, you are (21:32:51) stickster: nman64: Thans (21:32:53) stickster: *thanks (21:32:57) ***stickster shoots typist (21:33:01) MicroBob: quaid thanks (21:33:34) quaid: nman64: can you address the OPL-plan on f-dsco-list? (21:33:58) nman64: I do not believe I am subscribed to that list. (21:34:03) quaid: ok (21:34:22) G2: How many nicks do you have MicroBob ? ;-) (21:34:42) megacoder: "not enough", I think. (21:34:50) MicroBob: g2 a bunch, i use 6 (21:34:51) quaid: nman64: low vol. list, can I sub you? (21:35:00) stickster: nman64: One more note, we need those "make rpm" and "make spec" targets in the docs-common/ module as well (21:35:02) nman64: quaid: Yeah. (21:35:14) quaid: nman64 at n-man.com (21:35:15) stickster: Pigpile on Patrick (21:35:57) nman64: stickster: The builder package is in CVS. Changes can be made there. Additional configuration beyond the packaging can be emailed to me or to the list. (21:36:45) stickster: nman64: Oops, I had forgotten... let me do that then (21:36:48) stickster: Sorry (21:37:57) quaid: anything you want to say/ask on packaging? (21:38:34) stickster: Umm... "It's working well"? (21:38:38) stickster: Until we break it again ;-) (21:38:42) megacoder: native-compiled FOP in our future? (21:39:27) quaid: lordy, I don't know what the status is (21:39:36) quaid: I sent a tickler to f-devel-java-l last week but no reply (21:40:00) megacoder: I ask because we're building up more infrastructure based on my hacked xmlto. Maybe we should fork in under a different name? (21:40:16) quaid: hmm (21:40:32) megacoder: Fork "xmlto" to "fdpto" or something equally silly. (21:40:57) megacoder: Oh, well, let the idea percolate. (21:41:03) quaid: let's first (21:41:09) quaid: lean hard on the Java people to finish (21:41:22) quaid: and then lean hard on twaugh to finally upstream your changes (21:42:15) MicroBob left the room (quit: "Leaving"). (21:42:21) elliss: OK, that FAQ is now up: http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Licensing/FAQ (21:42:41) quaid: thx (21:43:06) stickster: quaid: Made report to Matthias (21:43:37) quaid: stickster: thx (21:43:37) stickster: I think he thinks we're putting all our docs in fedora-release... I clarified (21:43:37) MicroBob [n=bob at pdpc/supporter/sustaining/BobJensen] entered the room. (21:43:42) quaid: ah (21:45:15) stickster: I also gave him a quick rundown on how to see the packaging in action (21:47:16) megacoder: I like the FAQ, btw (21:47:47) quaid: ok, another plea sent (21:49:25) elliss: megacoder: Licensing FAQ ? (21:49:43) megacoder: Thats the 1 (21:50:26) elliss: Cool. Looking at it, it needs messaging to explain that the Wiki content is "documentation" (21:51:48) elliss: I'll do that in a minute... (21:53:18) elliss: Did we discuss the survey ? (21:53:36) elliss: (last "priority one" on the schedule) (21:53:51) quaid: haven't (21:54:13) ***quaid saves some updates to the schedule (21:54:27) quaid: what I want to know is (21:54:36) quaid: we know most of the stuff there, where are areas of suckage are (21:54:51) quaid: so, actions /= new stuff to write, build, etc. (21:54:55) quaid: because we are trying to do that (21:55:02) quaid: maybe actions == more resources? (21:55:25) quaid: like, should I take those results to the Foundation board and ask them to help us to do ... what? (21:55:38) quaid: the more concrete we can be, the better. (21:56:27) elliss: We need writers, but that needs more than resources (21:56:53) elliss: People have to want to do it (21:57:44) quaid: they could focus recruiting on documentation for us, for example (21:57:54) quaid: maybe do something special at FUDCon (21:58:23) quaid: also (21:58:32) quaid: if we had more technical resources, we could build wicked infrastructure (21:58:51) elliss: I think that's key in a way (21:58:51) quaid: and that would attract people (promotion of same, etc.) (21:58:56) elliss: I keep looking at other projects, and one thing strikes me... (21:59:31) elliss: The one's with a lot have content have webpages, not formal documents (22:00:24) stickster: We've had quite a few volunteers pop up in the last week or two... where are they coming from? (Not that we're not overjoyed of course) (22:00:51) G2: not sure. I have a load to add to the list (22:00:51) quaid: stickster: I'm not sure if it's more than usual or not, but what is diff is this (22:00:55) quaid: they are getting active right away (22:00:56) elliss: Publicity from test releases ? (22:00:59) quaid: v. disappearing (22:01:11) stickster: quaid: Yes, it's been a real kick (22:01:25) elliss: I think our breakthrough has been to assign/suggest work fast (22:01:28) quaid: I counted this mon. v. the last few months, it wasn't a big upswing in self-intros as much as an upswing in continuity from the intro'd (22:01:57) quaid: elliss: thank stickster for that idea (22:02:00) stickster: Hugo geared up quickly, did a bunch of work already this past week (22:02:03) megacoder: I think it's a threshold problem: success will breed success; documents breed documents. (22:02:11) quaid: we're all so ingrained to the FLOSS way of "make it yourself" (22:02:18) stickster: megacoder: I think you may have hit it on the head (22:02:24) quaid: that we tell people to look around, etc. and they disappear (22:02:27) elliss: Not yet at the tipping point :) (22:02:34) G2: need to dash. Chat tomorrow guys (22:02:38) stickster: quaid: And that is probably precisely where we need to depart from std. thinking (22:02:38) quaid: everyone just about replies, yes tell me what to do, I'll find my own way later. (22:02:40) quaid: G2: cheers (22:02:45) G2 left the room ("See you all tomorrow."). (22:02:55) quaid: right, one reason people come to docs is to -not- get treated that way (22:03:02) quaid: "The kinder, gentler sub-project," (22:03:17) stickster: quaid: Agreed, I think I would have lost without early help from several individuals (22:03:26) stickster: s/lost/lost interest/ (22:03:43) megacoder: I expect a surge of activity after FC5 and we've got stuff to show. (22:03:47) quaid: stickster: exactly, and you are the sort who _does_ do well just leaping in (22:04:28) quaid: man, I hope we can get relnotes translated for all languages for FC5 (22:04:40) quaid: megacoder: I still owe you some Make-fu, right? (22:04:53) megacoder: Right now, how to we distinguish FDP from tldp? (22:05:05) megacoder: Specifically, what make-fu? (22:05:20) quaid: megacoder: F /= TL? (22:05:31) megacoder: Huh? (22:05:33) quaid: I mean, are distinguishing characteristics are == (22:05:39) quaid: * Fedora-centric (22:05:44) quaid: * Fedora-only (22:05:52) quaid: * provides Fedora best practices, canonical (22:05:56) quaid: right? (22:06:01) elliss: Also, perhaps, we build docs to *ship* with Fedora (22:06:05) quaid: yes (22:06:11) quaid: and they are updated for the release (22:06:18) quaid: and tied to the release, v. being generic Linux (22:06:25) quaid: megacoder: xml2pot and po2xml, basically (22:06:55) quaid: megacoder: I know you can figure it out, just going to see if I can find some stuff from the RHEL packaging to kickstart and make us more like downstream (For a change) (22:07:26) megacoder: I've added "make po" to the Makefile.common, and an "apply_po" verb to fdpsh, so we are probably OK unless you've got something special in mind. (22:07:33) ***quaid is feeling the pain this week on his own imposition about per-lang sub-dirs, as he updates internal docs-common usages. (22:07:38) quaid: oh (22:07:39) quaid: sorry (22:07:41) quaid: didn't notice :) (22:07:42) megacoder: Of course, I'll look at anything. (22:07:53) ***quaid bends over for megacoder's kick in the arse (22:07:57) megacoder: Just don't get weird or something. (22:08:02) megacoder: Oops, too late. (22:08:04) quaid: not I! (22:08:15) stickster: quaid: don't fret, the per-lang is a good idea... Tommy and I have agreed, though, that the rpm-info per lang is a Bad one (22:08:20) quaid: ok (22:08:26) megacoder: ditto. (22:08:28) quaid: I know it's good (22:08:37) quaid: just feeling the effects,tha's all (22:08:40) quaid: so (22:08:52) quaid: can we tell Fedora Trans that we have .po files they can pick up? (22:09:25) megacoder: My point about distinguishing Fedora is that we need momentum and FC5 should do that. (22:09:29) quaid: ah (22:09:55) quaid: megacoder: the translators need a way to get .po back into .xml, is that function there? (22:09:57) megacoder: Anybody with a Makefile can "make po". And even commit it to CVS, now. (22:10:11) stickster: Yes, new look is just superficial (but crowd-pleasing), there's also a lot under the hood with this release, way more than FC3->4 (22:10:20) quaid: yeah, I think we're going to manually carry .po files into i18n.redhat.com (22:10:34) megacoder: PO->XML isn't done via a make target, but there's a separate script to fold it back into the XML. (22:10:37) stickster: quaid: jargon alert... can you clarify? (22:10:43) quaid: ok, that's what that is, thanks (22:10:51) quaid: stickster: ok (22:10:56) quaid: I forgot to report on a meeting I had (22:10:57) quaid: here (22:11:00) stickster: "manually carry" (22:11:04) quaid: last week, which I sent IRC log to list of, etc. (22:11:10) quaid: stickster: ideally (22:11:30) quaid: the Web apps at i18n.r.c (22:11:41) ***quaid thinks (22:11:59) quaid: 1. we need to move said Web apps to cvs.fedora from elvis.r.c (i18n.r.c) (22:12:06) quaid: trans CVS is still on elvis.r.c (22:12:14) quaid: why do we need to do that? (22:12:28) quaid: A: to allow the Web app to hook our .po files from our make targets (22:12:51) quaid: the webapp runs make, grabs .po, makes them avail to trans, and uses the script to put the .po back in. (22:13:09) quaid: to do that on separate machines takes resources we don't have. (22:13:26) quaid: bgroh wrote all that, and I put up a ticket to sopwith et al to look at taking it over from him. (22:13:31) quaid: along with the whole CVS move (22:13:38) quaid: 2. Meanwhile (22:13:57) quaid: we can give Fedora Trans access to our *-en.po files (22:14:12) quaid: and they can import them into CVS on elvis.r.c (22:14:21) quaid: and make them avail via the webapp (22:14:43) quaid: so we get many more translations for FC5 relnotes (and press releases) than just the heroes doing it by hand. (22:14:54) quaid: I don't want to expose this to all guides yet, because it's manual. (22:15:09) quaid: we will have to manually commit the trans'd .po files. (22:15:15) quaid: we == Fedora trans (22:15:58) quaid: it's 0530 for aalam , so he's probably asleep, but I believe that Fedora Trans team leaders understand all this as-is. (22:16:18) ***quaid finishes thinking (22:16:21) quaid: make sense? (22:17:33) stickster: yup (22:18:17) stickster: In other words, we're just adding one new make target to allow people to pick this stuff up (22:18:25) stickster: and translate (22:18:25) quaid: afaict, yes (22:19:12) megacoder: There must be a way to incrementally create/maintain/merge .po files during the document life, or is every update a fresh start? (22:19:22) quaid: same CVS? (22:19:25) quaid: would that do it? (22:19:37) quaid: and they use the .po files in /cvs/docs only? (22:19:46) quaid: i.e., we host our own translations, forevermore (22:19:56) quaid: oic (22:19:59) quaid: you mean, procedurally (22:20:07) megacoder: XML->PO is a complete overwrite every time. They probably have a process for handling incremental updates. (22:20:10) quaid: ideally, they use diffs (22:20:21) quaid: yes (22:20:24) quaid: but it's been line-based before (22:20:36) quaid: you may recall this as being one of the original reasons for a good xmldiff tool (22:20:42) megacoder: OK. Not my problem, then. (22:20:49) quaid: I don't think so (22:20:59) megacoder: Then I'm in favor of it. (22:20:59) quaid: well, I don't know for sure (22:21:01) quaid: heh (22:21:04) quaid: what I mean is (22:21:17) stickster: The line based thing works because of the PO format, right? (22:21:20) quaid: we may be able to put more smarts in on our side, since we're doing the .po generation (22:21:27) quaid: I think so (22:21:41) stickster: Well, an xmldiff tool may not help, because the element is equivalent to a line in PO (22:21:45) quaid: I need to get bgroh to explain it to me. (22:21:57) stickster: Have you run xml2po? (22:23:17) ***stickster very slowly catches up to megacoder's logic (22:23:36) quaid: no (22:23:58) stickster: I'm just doing it and looking at the output, i.e. PO formta (22:24:00) stickster: *format (22:25:48) stickster: Each block-level XML element gets a msgid, and the translation (msgstr) is indeed blank... but it would be a simple thing to compare the set of existing msgid's to the old set and diff, which is probably how the i18n.* system does it... i.e. a new package doesn't reset the counter to 0 every time, I think (22:26:06) stickster: If the msgid hasn't changed, no need to translate (22:26:41) stickster: I'm sorry if I am being slow here, I may not have the gist of the real issue (22:27:28) quaid: right (22:27:32) quaid: but when it changes (22:27:36) quaid: I think they do some sort of diff (22:27:43) quaid: such that, for RHEL docs (22:27:56) quaid: we're supposed to not C-c C-q (or M-q) to fix the block in Emacs (22:28:16) quaid: but leave extra long or short lines in so they whole block doesn't have to be visually diffed (22:28:21) megacoder: Step 1: You have an XML file. (22:28:21) megacoder: Step 2: make po. (22:28:21) megacoder: Step 3: add translations to .po file. (22:28:21) megacoder: Step 4: touch the original XML file. (22:28:21) megacoder: Step 5: make po. (22:28:28) megacoder: Step 6: see all previous content to PO file replaced by blanks. (22:28:54) stickster: Right, you'd have to have an intermediate diff in there (22:29:09) megacoder: As long as they know to do this step manually... (22:29:32) quaid: manually by the webapp? (22:29:45) quaid: I think the webapp replies upon the smarts being in the Makefile (22:30:31) megacoder: I see we need more details of their process before we let them roar off with a fresh batch of po files. (22:31:06) quaid: ok (22:31:20) quaid: hmm (22:31:25) quaid: how to engage ? (22:31:49) quaid: I'll ask bgroh to respond to a thread on f-trans-l (22:31:51) megacoder: Maybe they have a twiki that describes the process for newbies (22:34:00) megacoder: We're running a bit long; I've got to drop out. Anything else for me ATM? (22:34:02) quaid: http://webtest.fedora.redhat.com/docs/translation-quick-start/en (22:34:04) quaid: somewhat (22:34:14) quaid: thanks (22:34:16) quaid: -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Feb 8 00:31:50 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 19:31:50 -0500 Subject: [Fwd: [Bug 170847] Add Fedora documentation in yelp] Message-ID: <1139358710.8845.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> Recommendations for action? -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: bugzilla at redhat.com Subject: [Bug 170847] Add Fedora documentation in yelp Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 16:33:39 -0500 Size: 2497 URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stuart at elsn.org Wed Feb 8 00:42:20 2006 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 00:42:20 +0000 Subject: actions to OPL In-Reply-To: <1139357628.16883.65.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1139348013.16883.12.camel@erato.phig.org> <1139356802.2822.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1139357628.16883.65.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1139359340.2822.60.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2006-02-07 at 16:13 -0800, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Wed, 2006-02-08 at 00:00 +0000, Stuart Ellis wrote: > > > Sorry to keep harping on about communication, but there is a track > > record of stuff being done without enough communication, and causing > > unnecessary confusion, misunderstanding, and ill-feeling. I'd like to > > avoid all that, if it can be done. > > You are right. > > How are these steps now? > > http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Licensing/StepsToOPL It seems OK to me. IANAL, I-just-do-computers, etc. > I am about to ask for a vetting from the Foundation board et al. I want > their input on the FAQ -before- we make it widely known. > > One reason we are doing this discussion on IRC with logs and first here > is to start the attention small, but grow it rapidly. It's working so > far, I'm feeling almost ready to face the f-docs-l with this. :) Cool. One of the Ubuntu Docs leads posted a link to the Fedora Weekly Report on their mailing list last week (MoinMoin > DocBook), so stuff like this is being read by at least a few people... -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Feb 8 01:09:31 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 20:09:31 -0500 Subject: actions to OPL In-Reply-To: <1139357628.16883.65.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1139348013.16883.12.camel@erato.phig.org> <1139356802.2822.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1139357628.16883.65.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1139360971.8845.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2006-02-07 at 16:13 -0800, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Wed, 2006-02-08 at 00:00 +0000, Stuart Ellis wrote: > > > Sorry to keep harping on about communication, but there is a track > > record of stuff being done without enough communication, and causing > > unnecessary confusion, misunderstanding, and ill-feeling. I'd like to > > avoid all that, if it can be done. > > You are right. > > How are these steps now? > > http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Licensing/StepsToOPL > > I am about to ask for a vetting from the Foundation board et al. I want > their input on the FAQ -before- we make it widely known. BTW -- who are the board members? I hear the board mentioned often but can't find a record of the people involved. > One reason we are doing this discussion on IRC with logs and first here > is to start the attention small, but grow it rapidly. It's working so > far, I'm feeling almost ready to face the f-docs-l with this. :) With FC5t3 and final creeping up on us, the sooner we can get this done the better. Any released packages have to have the license noted in the spec file, and OPL doesn't appear on the approved list in Extras yet. As soon as Elliot gets the f-docs-l on Bugzilla, I'll ask Ville Skytta to get rpmlint fixed to accept OPL (another small speed hump on the road to Extras). -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Feb 8 00:58:44 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 19:58:44 -0500 Subject: Bugzilla address Message-ID: <1139360325.8845.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Elliot, When you get a free moment, could you sign fedora-docs-list at redhat.com up for Bugzilla, approve the subscription reply, turn off the password reminders and so forth, so we can cc: the list for certain bugs? Thanks a bunch as usual. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Feb 8 07:49:55 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 23:49:55 -0800 Subject: Bugzilla address In-Reply-To: <1139360325.8845.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1139360325.8845.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1139384995.16883.79.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2006-02-07 at 19:58 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote: > Elliot, > > When you get a free moment, could you sign fedora-docs-list at redhat.com > up for Bugzilla, approve the subscription reply, turn off the password > reminders I think you got this backwards. Bugzilla doesn't send out password reminders, and Mailman won't send reminders out to bugzilla. But I understood what you meant. :) > and so forth, so we can cc: the list for certain bugs? Are you thinking of using this account as a default in a bugzilla component, or just for occasional use? > Thanks > a bunch as usual. I took care of this. f-docs-l now is a bugzilla account, and I set the mailing list to allow messages from bugzilla at redhat.com to come through. Someone somewhere at sometime was concerned that the bug traffic to the list would annoy people. So, if anyone out there gets annoyed, let us know, OK? - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Content Services Fedora Documentation Project http://www.redhat.com/docs http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Feb 8 07:54:06 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 23:54:06 -0800 Subject: [Fwd: [Bug 170847] Add Fedora documentation in yelp] In-Reply-To: <1139358710.8845.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1139358710.8845.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1139385246.16883.81.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2006-02-07 at 19:31 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote: > Recommendations for action? Can you explain a little further? I don't understand the details or urgencies. > email message attachment, "Forwarded message - [Bug 170847] Add Fedora > documentation in yelp" > On Tue, 2006-02-07 at 19:31 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > Please do not reply directly to this email. All additional > > comments should be made in the comments box of this bug report. > > > > Summary: Add Fedora documentation in yelp > > > > > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=170847 > > > > > > > > > > > > ------- Additional Comments From mclasen at redhat.com 2006-02-07 16:33 EST ------- > > Hmm, but certainly, some documentation is going to be installed by default from > > a core package, no ? > > > > It would be good if we could at least get the "About Fedora" blurb in > > fedora-release in common. > > > > > > > -- > fedora-dsco-list mailing list > fedora-dsco-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-dsco-list -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Content Services Fedora Documentation Project http://www.redhat.com/docs http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Feb 8 12:49:45 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 07:49:45 -0500 Subject: [Fwd: [Bug 170847] Add Fedora documentation in yelp] In-Reply-To: <1139385246.16883.81.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1139358710.8845.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1139385246.16883.81.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1139402985.29311.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2006-02-07 at 23:54 -0800, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Tue, 2006-02-07 at 19:31 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > Recommendations for action? > > Can you explain a little further? I don't understand the details or > urgencies. https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/170847 What Matthias is saying, I think, is that it would be good for us to include at least a small "About Fedora" document in fedora-release, which would talk about the project, link to release notes, etc. (I think we should also include a link to the main docs page, where we can add instructions on installing our other RPMs when they are available.) The yelp package (GNOME help facility) now provides the ability for us to place items on the "front page" -- not text per se, but a link to a document. We can do this thorugh an OMF file that scrollkeeper parses automatically. We can now add this kind of documentation helper as part of our RPMs; however, none of that is included in fedora-release. I can provide the XML and OMF, and drop it in release-notes for inclusion if that's the location whence these sorts of things are derived. Am I on the right track? -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Feb 14 19:40:28 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 11:40:28 -0800 Subject: OPL schedule Message-ID: <1139946028.11779.488.camel@erato.phig.org> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Licensing/Schedule It has begun. http://iquaid.livejournal.com/7816.html That went out on planet.fp.o this morning. Now we need to get some help to get the Wiki relicensed. :) I'll do a longer announcement to f-docs-l tomorrow. If anyone wants to toss a straw man announcement to this list, please do so. :) - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Content Services Fedora Documentation Project http://www.redhat.com/docs http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stuart at elsn.org Tue Feb 14 22:35:40 2006 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 22:35:40 +0000 Subject: IRC Log FDSCo Meeting 14 February 2006 Message-ID: <1139956541.3161.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> (21:08:21) quaid: (21:08:35) G2: Here. (21:08:41) quaid: soy presente! (21:08:43) stickster: present (21:08:57) G2: anyone got a sick note ;-) (21:09:00) stickster: Hey, I think tcf_home is here too! (21:09:47) EvilBob left the room (quit: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). (21:09:48) megacoder: move to adjourn (21:09:55) stickster: ha (21:09:56) quaid: second (21:09:58) ***megacoder is kidding (21:10:00) quaid: (21:10:01) quaid: j/k (21:10:04) quaid: (21:10:09) quaid: that messes with my grep, man! (21:10:17) quaid: don't mess with my grep like that (21:10:25) stickster: That's going to be like Nixon's missing 18 min. (21:10:32) quaid: (21:10:34) quaid: oops! (21:10:38) stickster: ouch (21:10:40) megacoder: Aw, that's quite a stretch... (21:10:50) ***quaid is in Hannibal Smith mode (21:10:52) stickster: megacoder: It's Internet time, y'know ;-D (21:11:20) megacoder: Yeah, with my laptop drive busted, I'm doing this one via Knoppix live... (21:11:20) quaid: for today, I'd like to focus on just the OPL and the work involved (21:11:26) quaid: megacoder: dude, you rock (21:11:49) quaid: has everyone had a chance to catch up on the Wiki and my blog entry? (21:11:57) megacoder: Too old to rock and role, too stupid to die. (21:12:15) stickster: I read your blog entry today and the wiki entry last week, has anything changed (21:12:36) quaid: nope (21:12:40) quaid: well. uyes (21:12:41) quaid: yes (21:12:52) quaid: did you note the bit about RH changing to the OPL? (21:13:02) quaid: uh without options, I mean (21:13:04) elliss: Yes. (21:13:06) quaid: that's the new bit. (21:13:09) stickster: Oh YEAH! (21:13:12) stickster: I saw that in your blog. This is a BIG DEAL (21:13:20) stickster: When is that effective? (21:13:23) quaid: and our FAQ and StepsToOPL were vetted by a lawyer, fwiw (21:13:51) quaid: stickster: it's going to start rolling out one book/project at a time, I think, through March (21:14:09) stickster: So some of that content is going to be available by FC5 final (21:14:11) quaid: I'm hoping that we don't have some announcement yet, but maybe save it for FUDCon (21:14:21) quaid: as raw content (21:14:26) quaid: based on RHEL 4, yeah (21:14:28) quaid: perhaps (21:14:34) stickster: Even that is a huge boost (21:14:58) ***stickster thinks about the enormous amount of organizational effort that paid off in RHEL docs... (21:15:04) stickster: standing on those shoulders rocks my world (21:15:19) megacoder: stickster, then get off my back! (21:15:36) quaid: yeah, many thousands of pages, eventually (21:15:37) stickster: ya, mule (21:15:59) quaid: I'm going to be personally working on the Directory Server content, and overseeing the rest. (21:15:59) elliss: Will there be resources to Fedora-ize them ? (21:16:14) stickster: elliss: Methinks you're lookin' at 'em (21:16:18) quaid: well (21:16:20) quaid: more so than that (21:16:24) quaid: nothing is dumped (21:16:37) quaid: the writer who owns the books inside is now the editor-in-chief.lead writer (21:16:56) quaid: from the Content Services perspective, we're changing CVS (21:17:10) quaid: as sole copyright holder, etc. (21:17:20) quaid: and RH will ask for tight ACLs, which has precedence (21:17:22) G2: Saves the Fedora Project thinking about all this, when RH has done all the work. (21:17:33) quaid: but as people contribute and gain copyright ... etc. (21:17:46) quaid: obviously we are going to be able to use this content for RHEL 5 (21:18:00) quaid: we == RH (21:18:10) ***quaid has too many wewewe (21:18:16) stickster: all the way home (21:18:26) quaid: ok, so there's some work for us and Websites team (21:18:39) quaid: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Licensing/StepsToOPL (21:18:51) quaid: so, I'm to do #3 tomorrow (21:18:58) quaid: giving this a day to sink in (21:19:10) quaid: then we have to dive right into 4 (21:19:18) quaid: which is to work out the issues (21:19:24) quaid: mainly, the Wiki is the problem (21:19:33) quaid: in that there are no CLAs in place. (21:19:45) quaid: nman64: have you have a chance to give this some thought? (21:20:10) ***quaid notes to add nman64's *Tag to the schedule of tasks (21:21:42) nman64: I've only given it a little thought. Obviously, we need to work out a licensing requirement for the wiki. I'm just not sure how to enforce it. (21:22:10) stickster: Enforce == inform new user at account creation? (21:22:11) G2: HOw about a Javascript Popup? ;-) (21:22:20) G2: OK == accept (21:22:23) G2: Ha. (21:23:44) stickster: community-enforced, just require a signed email to a list? (21:23:46) Sonar_Gal [n=aglaser at ip70-174-58-25.hr.hr.cox.net] entered the room. (21:23:48) nman64: If we could come up with a way to integrate the EditGroup with the Account System... (21:24:15) stickster: megacoder, I think the problem is with previous contributions (21:24:43) stickster: You can't retroactively force someone into a license without their consent... (21:25:38) megacoder: If we don't have consent then "rm -rf" the stale stuff. If we don't have permission, we don't have permission... what's the problem with losing content you don't have rights to? (21:26:04) megacoder: Of course, I'd archive it, not delete it, but it would disappear from public view. (21:27:04) stickster: I think the idea is that most people will welcome the licensing since it's definitive, not cloudy, so we don't have to remove anything (21:27:04) nman64: That could a bit drastic. (21:27:10) quaid: problem is with integrated content, too (21:27:15) quaid: some changes are small and pervasive (21:27:21) quaid: like, what if mether refused to agree (21:27:24) quaid: we'd be screwed :D (21:27:25) stickster: Try backing out one person's changes from some of these very fluid pages (21:27:35) stickster: disco :-D (21:27:37) megacoder: Either the licensing issue is important or it's not. (21:27:48) quaid: it is to me, but what do you mean? (21:27:48) nman64: I'd say it's very important. (21:27:52) stickster: I think most of us agree it is (21:28:01) megacoder: We can't pretend that the wiki stuff is configuration controlled anyway. (21:28:08) stickster: Especially when we're drafting docs on the Wiki that will go under the OPL! (21:28:18) mether: quaid, my contributions are already signed away under the CLA (21:28:23) quaid: what about gregdeks way (21:28:24) quaid: ? (21:28:35) stickster: mether: we knew we could count on you ;-) (21:28:36) quaid: mether: j/k comment, I was using you as an example (21:28:43) quaid: mether: but the CLA doesn't cover the Wiki, does it? (21:29:19) mether: quaid, its all my contributions. CLA doesnt talk about specific content (21:29:35) quaid: awesome, ok (21:29:35) stickster: The CLA does cover it; the problem is that people can contribute to the wiki without a CLA in place (21:29:44) quaid: soe CLA people are covered, the Foundation is telling us we are now using the OPL (21:29:49) quaid: we can dual-license if we want (21:29:54) quaid: but anything that stays has to be OPL (21:30:00) quaid: stickster: exactly (21:30:05) quaid: so, greg said: (21:30:31) quaid: # (21:30:31) quaid: napshot a list of all wiki users who have accounts right now. Make that list into a wiki page. Call it the legacy wiki user OPL agreement page or some such. Put a watch on the page. People who agree should put a little check or something on the page. With watch, we should be able to tell if someone is doing something wacky, like agreeing on behalf of other people. (21:30:31) quaid: # (21:30:31) quaid: Add language that says "any content here is OPL content" to the account creation / login page, BIG AND BOLD so people can't miss it. ([WWW] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/UserPreferences). (21:30:33) quaid: # (21:30:35) quaid: Announce OPL policy -- and point legacy users to the "lwuOap" page, explaining how to agree to the new policy, and what to do if you don't (i.e., go and remove your edits.) (21:30:38) quaid: # (21:30:40) quaid: Slap OPL on every single page in the footer. (21:30:42) quaid: # (21:30:44) quaid: Monitor the watch list for compliance. (21:30:52) quaid: and that's pretty much Foundation Board approved shit, then (21:31:56) nman64: We could make that list a reverse list of who still needs to license their contributions, where contributors /remove/ their name once they agree, rather than place a mark. (21:32:15) nman64: I'll, of course, watch all changes. ;-) (21:32:22) quaid: right, us too (21:32:24) stickster: cool (21:32:25) megacoder: With no tracability for the wiki stuff, how is anyone going to establish ownership enough to make a fuss about the content by claiming ownership of any text whatsoever? (21:32:28) quaid: we can have a team on that one (21:32:40) nman64: megacoder: The wiki is traceable. (21:32:44) quaid: megacoder: we do the right thing because it's the right thing (21:32:46) quaid: regardless (21:32:49) nman64: It stores a complete history of everything. (21:33:15) megacoder: Then out goes the non-OPL stuff, no hu-hu. (21:33:15) quaid: now, making it take out UserA's content might be a hassle (21:33:21) quaid: and we don't want to have to do that. (21:33:32) quaid: but we can, and will. (21:33:39) quaid: same with /cvs/docs (21:33:46) megacoder: Agreed, but without a hard drive, I'm playing devil's advocate today ;-) (21:33:49) nman64: We can require that anyone who does not agree is responsible for removing their own edits. (21:33:56) quaid: but, if we have to do that, it's because that person fails to understand and we failed to explain why (21:33:57) stickster: The good thing about /cvs/docs is no one's in it without a CLA (21:34:06) mether: everybody is the current edit group needs to sign through the process (21:34:17) mether: and everyone in the future needs to as well (21:34:22) elliss: Agreed (21:34:37) quaid: nman64: that would be cool, but we would be the ones who need them removed, not others ... (21:34:47) elliss: Relicensing under OPL gives the Foundation no copyright (21:34:47) quaid: can we set that up _today_? (21:34:48) mether: we retain the responsibility to remove content (21:34:55) quaid: the requirement on future EditGroup additions? (21:34:57) mether: not the people who have contributed (21:34:58) nman64: Basically, leaving content is a form of agreement. (21:35:14) nman64: If they have been informed, anyway. (21:35:25) mether: we cant violate copyright and then ask them to remove content themselves (21:35:25) megacoder: Future content doesn't seem to be the problem. Is there anyway to have "implied consent" about the wiki? Like have a cut-off date for the cut-over? (21:35:30) elliss: nman64: It's nontransferable (21:35:34) mether: we are liable for not doing it if we dont do it (21:35:46) quaid: megacoder: [WWW] http://directory.fedora.redhat.com/wiki/ContentLicense (21:35:54) G2: that sounds a bit rough (21:35:56) quaid: we mirror that, and it's so (21:36:24) quaid: mether: agreed, we need to remove unlicensed content (21:36:33) stickster: *nod (21:36:42) stickster: Just so it doesn't get lost... (21:36:43) stickster: ********* (21:36:46) megacoder: How can we identify the unlicensed content. (21:36:48) quaid: s/we/\*/we\*/ (21:36:58) megacoder: s/[.]/?/ (21:36:58) quaid: megacoder: reverse list (21:36:58) stickster: can we set that up _today_? (21:37:03) nman64: That will be an extreme PITA, no matter what. (21:37:16) quaid: let's cross the how to remove if we have to (21:37:17) megacoder: Then it *is* possible to identify the non-OPL content? (21:37:20) quaid: and work our asses off to not have to (21:37:26) quaid: I want to get 100% of EditGroup to sign up (21:37:30) nman64: megacoder: Possible, but certainly not easy. (21:37:42) quaid: if I have to appeal to each of them personally (21:37:53) stickster: We should be able to contact all account holders personally thru information in their wiki account (21:38:00) quaid: and anyone who doesn't agree, they have to be removed from EditGroup (21:38:07) quaid: stickster: most don't have it (21:38:13) megacoder: OK, then I'll support the wiki-authors check-off concept for existing content. (21:38:17) quaid: oh, account (21:38:20) quaid: right (21:38:23) stickster: quaid: yuck on them then (21:38:38) quaid: well, the account system knows their addres (21:38:46) quaid: we need to prepare to use peer pressure (21:38:49) stickster: quaid: If they have one, remember (21:38:52) quaid: everyone there got there because of someone (21:39:11) quaid: if we run into someone who needs help getting over the hump to agree, we go to whoever added them to editGroup for help in explaining (21:39:12) stickster: cla_done = 316 members (21:39:29) stickster: quaid: excellent point (21:39:30) quaid: stickster: can't sign up to the Wiki without an email addy, right? (21:39:44) stickster: quaid: that's what I was talking about above (21:39:46) nman64: Aye, all wiki accounts should have a verified email. (21:39:56) quaid: we are sure to run into some dead ends (21:39:59) quaid: people who disappeared (21:40:00) nman64: Whether or not those emails are current... (21:40:04) stickster: true (21:40:04) quaid: but hopefully they made zero or no edits (21:40:16) megacoder: Isn't the relicensing problem mostly a neglect issue rather than a refusal issue? (21:40:17) quaid: maybe we want to focus first on the subset of EditGroup who have made edits (21:40:20) nman64: The fun part will be tracking down their contributions. (21:40:24) quaid: megacoder: yes (21:40:36) stickster: quaid: undoubtedly (21:40:52) quaid: nman64: eventually the copyright will expire and we'll take it from the public domain :D (21:41:06) quaid: nman64: how can we achieve this -today-? :: (21:41:09) megacoder: Mass mail out would probably catch most contributers then. (21:41:14) quaid: Add language that says "any content here is OPL content" to the account creation / login page, BIG AND BOLD so people can't miss it. ([WWW] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/UserPreferences). (21:41:14) stickster: right (21:41:22) quaid: so it lands on the new sign up template (21:41:37) quaid: EditGroup /= all users, neccessarily (21:41:55) quaid: we can use http://directory.fedora.redhat.com/wiki/ContentLicense as a source (21:42:01) quaid: or heck, just copy the language right over (21:42:01) megacoder: The OPL notice is good, mass mail-out is good, then publish a wiki page of non-responders. (21:42:20) quaid: megacoder: self-published (21:42:27) megacoder: But get the OPL in email writing. (21:42:33) quaid: megacoder: we make EditGroupWhoNeedsToAgreeToOPL (21:42:40) quaid: and then people take themselves off that page (21:42:42) G2: what cutoff date shall we set? (21:42:58) quaid: my aggressive schedule is two weeks (21:43:13) quaid: get licensing cleared up by FC5 (21:43:19) G2: what if someone is on a 2 week holiday? (21:43:27) quaid: sunset timing (21:43:31) G2: and left last night ;-) (21:43:32) quaid: means, we don't make it a hard date (21:43:35) nman64: I'll start looking in to how we can make this happen and get things started today. It might take a few days to get everything taken care of, as it might require some patches here. The UserPreferences page isn't a normal wiki page. :-) (21:43:39) stickster: and sleeps really soundly (21:43:53) quaid: nman64: ok, the sooner you get UserPref fixed, the better we sleep (21:44:06) quaid: the rest we can talk about and fix on list (21:44:18) stickster: nman64: I just added this checklist to http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Licensing/StepsToOPL (21:44:24) quaid: we have approval and Foundation reason to fix the Wiki license going forward (21:44:40) quaid: that doesn't need more announcement than I'm doing tomorrow (21:44:54) nman64: Sounds good. I've got to take off, but I'll review the backlog when I return, and post to the list if needed. (21:45:00) quaid: nman64: you rock, thank you (21:45:01) stickster: nman64: rock on (21:45:06) quaid: jinx! (21:45:10) quaid: well, not really (21:45:10) stickster: buy me a coke (21:45:15) quaid: ok, next time (21:45:38) ***quaid thinks he just scored himself tix to FUDCon Boston 2006 (21:45:42) stickster: Wow, cool! (21:45:44) quaid: be the perfect time and place to announce all this (21:45:51) quaid: well, this is my justification (21:45:59) stickster: clever (21:46:07) quaid: if anyone can make it, contact me and Alex Meier about stipend (21:46:19) quaid: she is in charge of knowing that, and I want to know what's up (21:46:33) quaid: might make you give a talk of some kind for it, but that's worth it, right? (21:46:50) quaid: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FUDCon/FUDConBoston2006 (21:46:53) quaid: 7 April 2006 (21:47:11) quaid: you'll get to meet mspevack, right Max? (21:47:54) quaid: ok, any more on the OPL for today? (21:48:06) quaid: and many many many thanks to you guys, the pieces are really coming together (21:48:07) G2: nope. covered. (21:48:44) stickster: quaid: Can we throw topics into ring for discussion, goring? (21:48:44) quaid: elliss: excellent FAQ, when it makes the Board and their Lawyer happy, it's got to be good :) (21:48:48) quaid: sure (21:48:55) stickster: elliss: second that, first rate job (21:49:09) elliss: Thanks. (21:49:16) stickster: quaid: OK: test3 slippage & relnotes (21:49:33) stickster: Can we do any content editing for better readability? (21:49:45) stickster: Or is that going to create too much churn for translators? (21:50:14) quaid: you have to edit in the Wiki and kick it out from there (21:50:19) quaid: or else you have to port edits back, etc. (21:50:24) stickster: yuck (21:50:30) quaid: which I just did, which is why I couldn't give it a readability edit in time (21:50:43) quaid: test3 is out, afawc (21:50:55) stickster: Oh, OK (21:50:57) quaid: last night sometime was the deadline, and they used it (21:51:01) stickster: I gotcha (21:51:08) quaid: so we are focused on updates for test3, year (21:51:17) quaid: s/year/yeah/ (21:51:23) quaid: and fc5 release (21:51:38) quaid: stickster: sorry, mate, you were eventually going to have to make Wiki edits ;) (21:51:43) stickster: OK, will do editing in wiki... np (21:52:06) stickster: Maybe this is an excuse to look at wiki -> DB script and improvements...? (21:52:26) stickster: (for me to do, if time, not implicating anyone) (21:52:45) quaid: yes (21:52:52) quaid: that's why it's important to get that smooth (21:53:01) quaid: so Bob-Laptop can run some commands and build the relnotes (21:53:08) quaid: and not have to hack XML (21:53:26) quaid: sorry, I unilaterally decided (21:53:34) quaid: to give up on a blended approach for now and make the Wiki canonical (21:53:39) quaid: until we can get them merged again (21:53:46) quaid: I've seen the inside of Doc-Book Wiki this week (21:53:47) quaid: btw (21:53:56) stickster: quaid: It makes sense, no qualms here (21:54:06) quaid: and that approach is really going to work, no matter how we tool it (21:54:11) stickster: Obviously you can't argue with the amount of content we got from our colophon folks (21:54:24) quaid: it has Wiki constructs for most structured stuff, then exposes the rest of the XML for Wiki-interface editing. (21:54:44) quaid: then we just load a WYSIWYG browser editor and let them go to town. (21:54:55) quaid: yeah, dria++ (21:55:24) quaid: she convinced me to follow the Moz dev way of using the Wiki (21:55:33) quaid: now we are in the "hack it to work" mode (21:56:13) elliss: Is it accessible outside RH for Fedora people to poke at ? (21:56:33) stickster: I think you just send specially formatted URL request (21:56:37) quaid: elliss: not this install (21:56:39) stickster: like ?format=xml appended or something (21:56:42) stickster: Oh (21:56:43) stickster: nm (21:56:47) ***stickster is an idiot, never listen to him (21:56:54) quaid: well, MM has stuff that elliss knows about (21:56:56) quaid: one sec (21:57:28) quaid: http://www.soft.inima.al/book/edit.php (21:57:31) quaid: requires a password (21:57:51) stickster: Oh right (21:57:57) G2: Need to dash. Nice meeting guys. (21:58:02) stickster: G2: g'night (21:58:11) megacoder: G2, cheers (21:58:27) quaid: we'll close now (21:58:33) quaid: URL on docbook wiki coming (21:59:00) megacoder: aob? (21:59:05) quaid: sure (21:59:31) stickster: trans? (21:59:39) megacoder: I've gotten some translator responses to my email about .PO files instead of translated XML in CVS. (22:00:04) megacoder: Everyone seems in favor and those who don't have .PO files for their translations say NP about re-deriving them. (22:00:23) quaid: ok, yeah, saw that (22:00:27) quaid: glad to see response has been good (22:00:28) stickster: megacoder: Sounds like you're golden, buddy (22:00:42) megacoder: All I need to to is re-instate my CVS access and update Makefile.common with as much as I remember? Could take a couple of days and then bingo! (22:01:19) megacoder: Just a heads-up really. (22:01:42) stickster: k (22:01:47) stickster: aw, crap (22:01:52) stickster: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=170847 (22:01:55) megacoder: I'll need some hints about updating my GPG key. (22:02:34) quaid: same GPG key, right? (22:02:43) megacoder: No, lost that one. (22:02:48) stickster: oh no (22:02:59) quaid: bummer (22:03:01) stickster: what, no backup? tsk (22:03:19) megacoder: That _was_ my backup ;-( (22:03:33) quaid: moo? (22:03:43) megacoder: Blessed are the Pessimists, for they shall have made backups -- The SysAdmin's Beatitude (22:03:51) quaid: stickster: wtf is going on with 170847, I don't get it? (22:04:05) elliss: megacoder: I'm using a pen drive to back mine up now (22:04:12) stickster: We just got shoved to FC6 target? (22:04:37) stickster: I thought I asked someone, how do we get content into fedora-release to cover that (22:04:55) megacoder: elliss, good idea, bad timing ;-) (22:05:17) stickster: Is fedora-release closed to us at this point? (22:05:50) ***stickster uses same keyring all over the place so backup is natural and organic (22:06:03) ***quaid too (22:06:15) quaid: stickster: I still don't get it (22:06:24) quaid: meaning, we're not in test3 so ... (22:06:47) stickster: Wait, nothing gets in after test3? I thought exceptions were made, especially since f-release itself has to change (22:06:55) quaid: I don't know (22:07:04) quaid: trying to understand what -you- are saying :) (22:07:06) stickster: Can you check? I can provide the .xml and .omf they need (22:07:12) stickster: Let me explain... (22:07:16) quaid: k (22:07:26) stickster: They want a piece of front material that will be in a Core package, i.e. fedora-release (most natural place) (22:07:49) stickster: When user hits "Help," thanks to a yelp patch, we can put that material on the front page -- at least a *link* to that material (22:08:04) stickster: So if we provide a small XML file with "About Fedora" and some other goodies, it appears right there (22:08:26) stickster: That requires just the .xml and a .omf file for yelp to know it's there (22:08:45) quaid: can we derive that from something or is it conceptually a stand-alone document? (22:08:52) stickster: If we provide a .desktop file, that could also provide "About Fedora" on the Desktop menu right next to "About GNOME" or "About KDE" (22:09:12) stickster: quaid: I'm thinking we can, I just don't know which one is canonical... without info, I could go to f.r.c but that's sort of scanty (22:09:19) quaid: how about we put the files in release-notes/ at the top (22:09:34) stickster: That would work (22:09:47) McGiwer: bye (22:09:49) stickster: We just have to get fedora-release maintainers to agree to include them (22:10:12) megacoder: McGiwer, next time... (22:10:18) stickster: McGiwer: bye (22:10:34) stickster: quaid: That works for me (22:10:35) quaid: yeah, f13 owns it (22:10:38) stickster: ? (22:10:42) quaid: stickster: ender (22:10:43) stickster: fedora-release? (22:10:44) quaid: jkeating (22:10:45) quaid: yes (22:10:53) quaid: can you contact him directly when the files are in place? (22:10:58) quaid: or put him on that bug ticet? (22:11:05) ***quaid needs to run right quick (22:11:14) stickster: Can anyone suggest a source for that material? (22:11:33) megacoder: f.d.c? (22:11:42) megacoder: f.r.c? I'm stupid today. (22:11:44) stickster: actually..... (22:11:55) quaid: Docs/Beats/Welcome (22:12:08) stickster: disco (22:12:11) stickster: *jinx, almost (22:12:41) stickster: Hmm, not quite there (22:13:29) stickster: Wow, fp.o/wiki text at top is quite on point (22:15:22) stickster: ignacio: Any word on review of the latest f-doc-common spec? (22:16:22) stickster: http://cvs.fedora.redhat.com/viewcvs/docs-common/packaging/fedora-doc-common.spec?root=docs&view=markup (22:17:35) stickster: quaid: I have a working Rawhide again today so let me see what progress I can make (22:18:24) ***stickster notices "Fedora" in "Welcome to Fedora Core" is finally blue (22:18:27) stickster: :-) (22:21:00) stickster: hmm, quaid never said so... shall we call it? (22:21:10) ignacio: Looks mostly good, although I do see "$RPM_BUILD_ROOT/%{_datadir}/fedora/doc/docs-common" an awful lot. (22:21:29) ignacio: Also, why not put just %{_datadir}/fedora in %files? (22:22:00) stickster: ignacio: I was building on FC4... (22:22:20) ignacio: You lost me... (22:22:30) stickster: sorry, continuing sentence (22:22:44) stickster: ...I believe I did a round owning either that or %{_datadir}/fedora/doc, and it did not pick up ownership of the subdirectories (22:23:14) stickster: When I did "yum remove fedora-doc-common", with no other subordinate content installed, those dirs were left as cruft (22:23:21) ignacio: Strange. It ought to be recursive. (22:23:26) stickster: That's what I thought too (22:23:30) megacoder: +yup,bug (22:23:57) megacoder: +i.e.,behavior contrary to published documentation. (22:24:09) stickster: I will retest but I'm sure you put that in your initial review, and I went through that review thoroughly (22:24:30) ignacio: How do I build the package myself? I've checked out docs-common. (22:24:46) stickster: That's it, just cd docs-common && make (22:24:50) stickster: Oops, make rpm (22:25:24) ***ignacio found a bug in the makefile (22:25:40) stickster: Do tell (22:25:42) ***megacoder wonders at "just one?" (22:25:51) stickster: down boy (22:26:04) ignacio: I redefine %_build_name_fmt, so the package isn't under the noarch subdir. (22:26:09) megacoder: I keep telling you, it's that darned knoppix! (22:26:37) stickster: Heh (22:29:27) ignacio: http://fedora.ivazquez.net/files/current/makefile-path.patch (22:29:32) stickster: -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stuart at elsn.org Tue Feb 21 22:32:22 2006 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 22:32:22 +0000 Subject: IRC Log FDSCo Meeting 21 February 2006 Message-ID: <1140561142.3063.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> (21:05:18) ***quaid breaks open http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/FedoraDocsSchedule (21:05:36) quaid: we can give stickster a few minutes to get unstuck from traffic (21:06:06) ghenry: I will be nipping back and forth trying to fix the server, so please bear with me (21:06:15) quaid: megacoder: i did the right thing with the release-notes Makefile, right? (21:06:15) elliss: ghenry: Very good to hear. There's definitely a shortage of good docs for getting started with OpenLDAP. (21:06:31) ghenry: It's easy when you knwo how ;-) (21:06:42) quaid: ghenry: tried Fedora Directory Server yet? (21:06:58) ghenry: Too much of a beast in my eyes, but no. (21:07:04) ghenry: Should do when I get time (21:07:04) quaid: megacoder: meaning, I pulled in the new Makefile from example-tutorial (21:07:18) quaid: oh, it's sizey all right (21:08:00) megacoder: quaid, looked OK to me, but I haven't gone deep yet. (21:08:07) quaid: ok, just making sure i got the right idea (21:08:10) quaid: I haven't tested it yet (21:08:18) quaid: need a newer FC or some docbook package (21:08:47) megacoder: quaid, I can't test it either ATM, I'm rebuilding from my HD crash from last week. (21:09:10) quaid: righto (21:09:30) quaid: megacoder: you know, I have this handy little script that I used to rsync every hour ... (21:09:37) megacoder: But I don't see anything serious enough to revoke your CVS rights... (21:09:41) Eitchugo left the room (quit: Remote closed the connection). (21:09:45) quaid: sometimes it's annoying, but each time my laptop harddrive has died, it makes me so happy. (21:09:48) quaid: thanks (21:10:02) quaid: working on it, though, and someday I hope to be a serious fuckup! (21:10:24) megacoder: quaid, I'd need an rsync dest, no? Making offers? (21:10:36) quaid: oh (21:10:39) quaid: right, yeah (21:10:46) quaid: I could if I had another disk! (21:10:57) quaid: "But ... there's a hole in the bucket, dear Liza, dear Liza ..." (21:11:20) quaid: ok, all active members save stickster are present (21:11:23) quaid: so I'm going to open (21:11:31) quaid: so's we can all be done on time :) (21:11:33) quaid: (21:11:47) quaid: and to start, nman64++ for pushing us nicely into relicensing land (21:12:10) ***megacoder claps politely (21:12:55) quaid: so far, so good, only a few complaints I've heard of (21:14:50) quaid: so, I'm changing the first task to read an in progress on OPL changes (21:16:33) quaid: anything on that topic from the assembled? (21:16:37) quaid: or nman64 et al? (21:22:34) quaid: okey dokey :) (21:23:07) quaid: stickster isn't here to tell us about docs packages in Extras for FC5, does anyone else know if/what is? (21:24:11) megacoder: Not I (21:24:50) ***quaid is behind there, too (21:25:29) quaid: ok, I think the hottest thing on our agenda is the Wiki to XML conversion process (21:26:01) quaid: nman64 has asked/suggested we move some of the infrasructure off his machine, but I think we need an updated MoinMoin to get that (21:26:14) quaid: we've got two areas of concern: (21:26:28) quaid: i) now until FC5 with minimal problems (21:26:38) quaid: ii) tear it all up and figure out something better for FC6 (21:26:45) quaid: now, I want to talk about ii, but it's not pressing :) (21:27:14) quaid: StillBob: perhaps we can find a way to move some extra time into the schedule for problems like we always have (21:27:23) quaid: and just do our manual process to get through fc5 (21:27:26) StillBob: Yup (21:27:34) ***quaid guessed at the right computer! (21:27:59) quaid: right, there is still value in the current process, if anything to use as compost for the next-gen (21:30:09) StillBob: as I learn the process I will try to do what it takes to be on schedule for the release notes between now and the fc5 release (21:30:25) quaid: no worries, we'll get it (21:30:47) quaid: paul and I worked through quite a bit of this last weekend, so we've a good idea of the issues involved (21:31:02) quaid: we were mixing XIncludes with DocBook entities, and it was a rough time :) (21:31:18) StillBob: I watched quietly (21:31:26) StillBob: ;^) (21:32:30) quaid: ok, I'll talk with nman64 and Sopwith later about what we need to get through fc5 (21:32:38) quaid: we can talk about fc6 after fc5 is out the door, I reckon (21:32:39) quaid: :) (21:33:06) quaid: but a sneak preview is that I'm going to be showing around the feature-set of Doc-Book Wiki as "What we must have," and seeing if we can challenge ourselves to make it happne. (21:33:16) quaid: I'll even pick up Python to do it, if I have to :P (21:33:48) quaid: ok, I skipped DocsRawhide, going to postpone more talk until post-FC5 (21:33:53) ***quaid notes that (21:34:14) quaid: same for recruiting, we've got our hands full with our crew right now :) (21:34:23) quaid: but that's definitely a big one for me ... post FC5 (21:35:39) quaid: ok, on to Trans ... (21:36:23) quaid: I sent another follow-up to the FTrans leadership this morning, giving them these details: (21:36:29) quaid: "make po" (21:36:31) quaid: basiclaly (21:37:04) quaid: we are asking them to manually load just the release-notes into their tool for community translation. They'll have to manually load the .po files back in to our CVS. (21:37:32) quaid: post-FC5 we can do more. (21:37:45) megacoder: A well-timed "make xml-de" will let them see the fruits of their labor. (21:37:48) quaid: so, if aalam has any questions about this, please contact us (21:37:51) quaid: ah, cool (21:38:19) quaid: I don't know yet if they want to (21:38:27) quaid: load up the .po files early and then update the -en source (21:38:28) quaid: or (21:38:33) quaid: wait until we freeze certainly. (21:38:51) megacoder: The sequence is: create the ${PRI_LANG} XML, "make po", edit the .pot files, and "make html-de". Repeat until happy. Send us the .po files. (21:38:52) quaid: either way, aalam is going to do a -pa test run (21:39:16) quaid: make xml-de or html-de (21:39:19) megacoder: I await aalam's results and/or questions. (21:39:28) quaid: and is de == "my language code" (21:39:47) elliss: Where do things stand with other documents ? (21:39:52) megacoder: Yeah, "xml-${LOCALE}", et. al. (21:40:06) quaid: I'm a little concerned that there is something being lost .. in translation. (21:40:15) quaid: I'm not positive that we are moving as-one with Fedora Trans on this or not (21:40:32) quaid: elliss: for example, for loading into the trans system? (21:40:45) quaid: elliss: I really wanted to get them in the same CVS, instead of doing manual processes (21:40:52) quaid: but we can do the manual, if we can line up someone to do the work on their system (21:41:07) quaid: it will make the total CVS history broken, but it's all going to be new stuff in six months anyway. (21:42:30) elliss: Yuan Yijun had issues with the IG, and couldn't really advise him as to whether it should work or not (21:42:49) quaid: right (21:43:17) quaid: I wish xi was convenient as &FOO; (21:43:18) megacoder: Yeah, we need to revisit the whole entity concept and make the language neutral. (21:43:30) quaid: ok (21:44:24) elliss: I understood from Paul that the entities file declaration was an issue - is this a showstopper ? (21:44:37) megacoder: Like, we could copy the boilerplate from the "docs-common/common" stuff into a local file, use "xmlstarlet" or the like to edit in place the proper localized entities. (21:45:07) megacoder: elliss, we could add some pre-processing to work around that if it's the deal killer. (21:46:49) megacoder: Think of it like a pre-processing XSL stylesheet that would transform &FOO; into or something. (21:47:29) megacoder: I'd nominate stickster to do the stylesheet, he's liking that sort of thing. Besides, he isn't here ;-) (21:47:42) StillBob: lol (21:47:46) elliss: I'm looking for his mail in the archive...he did some kind of work around, but I'm not sure if it worked 100% (21:48:10) megacoder: Point is, workarounds are possible given the necesssary urgency about an issue. (21:48:49) elliss: The RH site isn't responding... (21:48:50) megacoder: I think for the RelNotes, they resorted to brute force s/&FOO;/what is foo anyway/g sort of things. (21:49:03) megacoder: Not scalable. (21:50:12) StillBob: elliss: IIRC Sopwith was going to be doing some things this afternoow (21:51:39) elliss: OK. Can you post to the docs- or -trans list if you have some info, so that Yuan Yijun can pick it up ? (21:52:56) megacoder: elliss, Whom? Meem? (21:54:07) elliss: Anybody, really. (21:55:45) elliss: He seemed unclear, and I'm not clear how to help him beyond testing that the en/ files are OK (which I did). (21:58:38) megacoder: I can do a short post to docs- asking about any problems; that should flush him out. (21:59:33) elliss: Thanks. (22:00:27) elliss: I feel guilty about basically having to say "don't know". (22:00:57) megacoder: elliss, it's easy, I do it all the time. (22:02:15) ***quaid drifted into a phone call (22:02:42) elliss: "Is you document broke ?" "don't know, it works in English" :| (22:03:05) megacoder left the room (quit: Remote closed the connection). (22:03:27) megacoder [n=reynolds at adsl-065-005-229-109.sip.lft.bellsouth.net] entered the room. (22:03:47) ***megacoder manages to crash xchat (22:09:30) ghenry left the room (quit: "Chatzilla 0.9.70 [Firefox 1.5.0.1/2006011112]"). (22:20:50) megacoder: Are we still meeting? (22:21:32) elliss: quaid ? (22:21:44) quaid: -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Feb 28 18:14:17 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 10:14:17 -0800 Subject: working meeting today (28 Feb 2006) Message-ID: <1141150457.26154.24.camel@erato.phig.org> We are finishing the release notes for translation today, so should work through the meeting. If you have the time and want to pitch in, come on down, there surely will be something for ya'll to curmudgeon-up. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Content Services Fedora Documentation Project http://www.redhat.com/docs http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Feb 28 18:15:44 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 10:15:44 -0800 Subject: starting post-FC5 task list Message-ID: <1141150544.26154.27.camel@erato.phig.org> I've started moving tasks back up in priority or adding new ones for the post-FC5 world. I've folded new dates into some of them. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/FedoraDocsSchedule Feel free to add in items, move some priorities around, etc. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Content Services Fedora Documentation Project http://www.redhat.com/docs http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: