From stickster at gmail.com Tue Jan 3 13:50:04 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 08:50:04 -0500 Subject: Meeting today? Message-ID: <1136296204.7463.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Happy new year, FDSCo peeps! Am I correct that we are GO for our meeting today? -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stuart at elsn.org Tue Jan 3 23:23:12 2006 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 23:23:12 +0000 Subject: IRC Log FDSCo Meeting Jan 03 2006 Message-ID: <1136330593.2857.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> (21:09:04) quaid: (21:09:23) quaid: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/FedoraDocsSchedule (21:11:53) quaid: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsRawhide (21:12:00) quaid: if you have any suggestions for improvement, add them to that page (21:13:11) quaid: I've forgotten already what we discussed for ideas, but this page will give sopwith and i something to work from. (21:13:30) quaid: so we don't even need to talk about that (21:13:32) stickster: You mean DocsRawhide? (21:13:34) quaid: yes (21:13:35) stickster: nm ok (21:13:46) mether: quaid, docsrawhide has the confusion of being docs meant for rawhide (21:13:52) mether: quaid, you guys need a better name (21:14:01) stickster: I disagree, that would be RawhideDocs ;-) (21:14:05) quaid: yep (21:14:17) stickster: We had one we liked but I think it was taken or s-thing (21:14:32) elliss: There was a list of the ideas on the minutes for a previous meeting...hunting for the mail (21:14:46) megacoder: How about "Not ready for prime time docs"? (21:14:49) mether: stickster, you think people would differntiate between docsrawhide and rawhideddocs. you are being way too clever (21:15:13) stickster: Sorry, joking (21:15:13) quaid: the problem is (21:15:23) quaid: Docs Rawhide is totally accurate (21:15:30) quaid: we need to think of documentation as being like the rest of the code (21:15:32) mether: quaid, how about we do a "whats wrong with the fedora docs survey"? (21:15:43) mether: quaid, end users dont really think like that (21:15:50) quaid: mether: it's on the agenda (21:16:07) quaid: mether: docs rawhide is not for your average end user (21:16:13) stickster: Disco (21:16:22) quaid: nor is rawhide (21:16:29) stickster: Disco again (21:16:46) quaid: we can just make it clear at the top of the page, and populate RawhideDocs in a similar fashion. (21:17:05) quaid: I'm sure it will confuse people, but since it's not really a title for average people, we don't have to consider their confusion as highly :) (21:17:18) stickster: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-dsco-list/2005-December/msg00004.html - IRC minutes from 13 Dec 2005, some DocsRawhide there (21:17:44) stickster: ideas included: (1) email build errors to doc maintainers; (2) building branches other than current; (3) listing of docs on Fedora Project websites (21:18:19) quaid: adding .... (21:18:45) stickster: http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2005-December/msg00045.html was the short version (21:19:20) quaid: added (21:20:05) quaid: we can always change the name/term later (21:20:13) quaid: WetInk or something :) (21:20:40) quaid: ? (21:21:07) stickster: node (21:21:09) stickster: *nod (21:21:28) quaid: how about ... on to congratulating stickster and megacoder on their packaging progress! (21:21:34) stickster: Woo-hoo!!! (21:21:41) quaid: and see if there is anything you fellas need from us? (21:21:43) megacoder: I second that emotion! (21:21:55) stickster: Makefile rules need to be sanitized and moved to the .common area, but it demonstrably works (21:22:20) stickster: One thing that has been implicated is the new rpm-info.xml file (21:22:22) quaid: what do you think we'll have packaged for test2? docs-common, example-tutorial ... (21:22:42) stickster: Actually, example-tutorial may not itself be quite ready yet! :-D (21:22:49) quaid: perhaps we can get some testing on the IG if you provide a package (21:23:16) stickster: I've made a info2rpminfo.xsl so people can get the beginnings of a rpm-info.xml file out of their existing doc (21:24:14) megacoder: Far freakin' out! (21:24:47) stickster: The idea is: (1) make rpm-info.xml using that XSL file; (2) fix as necessary; (3) remove or section from existing doc, replace with entity referencing new fdp-info.xml file; (4) uh, panic because we're not quite Makefile-ready yet (21:24:58) quaid: is that ready for testing? (21:25:02) quaid: heh (21:25:08) quaid: ok, not quite ready for testing (21:25:35) stickster: Yeah, not quite... as soon as Tommy reviews my work, strangles it mercifully in the cradle, and replaces it with something better in Makefile.common :-D (21:25:46) stickster: But we are VERY VERY CLOSE. (21:25:54) megacoder: We will need a new DG section on creating the rpm-info.xml file. (21:25:58) stickster: Like, "dude I can smell it" close. (21:26:05) quaid: *sniff, sniff* (21:26:06) stickster: megacoder: Thanks for that segue -- (21:26:35) stickster: Because I was going to suggest that Tommy take up the scrubbing and porting to Makefile.common, while I work on the DocGuide (21:26:38) stickster: Now's the time! (21:26:40) stickster: NOW! (21:26:46) stickster: I mean, uh... NOW! (21:26:46) megacoder: stickster; How "reviewable" is what you have now? (21:27:04) stickster: I didn't want to puff up too much over it, but I think it's actually not bad (21:27:20) megacoder: +OK, I get the drift, but I wish you wouldn't express yourself so passively ;-) (21:27:23) stickster: It's certainly completely readable and there's nothing kludged for example-tutorial (21:27:38) stickster: IOW, I think it will work if you're happy with what you see (21:27:48) megacoder: Let it out, man! (21:27:58) stickster: I ROCK!!!! I MEAN, TRULY ROCK!!!! (21:28:12) stickster: *pant, heave* (21:28:17) megacoder: OK, I'll mangle it for a while. I'll keep you in the loop. (21:28:22) stickster: :-) cool (21:28:31) megacoder: Lord, it's hard to be humble when you're perfect in every way... (21:29:17) stickster: megacoder: I'm thinking I'll write a quick wiki page, not just for our reference but as scratch pad for the DG (21:29:55) quaid: +10 baby! (21:29:58) megacoder: Good. I'll review it, too. (21:29:59) quaid: the whole thing (21:30:27) stickster: Great (21:30:38) megacoder: And the best darn thing is that if you can type "make rpm" you can have one. (21:31:01) stickster: Exactly... also, by the way, that makes one with the "DRAFT" watermark if you're not building out of official CVS (21:31:16) quaid: even leeter (21:31:43) quaid: people have to have clue to un-draft it, at which point they are like the dude with his own root password -- unsupportable and on their own and happy about it. (21:32:26) stickster: disco (21:32:41) quaid: ok, anything else on this topic? (21:32:54) megacoder: Um, maybe. (21:33:07) stickster: fire away kemo sabe (21:33:28) megacoder: The infrastructure for doc generation has such a high degree of nift, that other folks will probably use it. (21:33:42) quaid: yep (21:33:45) megacoder: They should really have a painless way to un-draft stuff. (21:34:02) quaid: make not-draft? (21:34:03) stickster: It's not too painful... you just send a flag to the rpm building process (21:34:08) megacoder: But I don't think "make HTMLCSSEXTRA=foo xxx" is too high. (21:34:18) quaid: ah, cool, yeah (21:34:22) megacoder: of a bar. (21:34:31) quaid: as long as it's well documented (21:34:48) megacoder: Just wanted to point out that this is dead simple as long as we don't forget to doc it. (21:34:53) megacoder: (21:35:00) stickster: megacoder: one thing to look for as you're reviewing--- (21:35:03) quaid: yeah, I'm working up an initial mission statement for us, and I want it to include this mission -- providing documentation frameworks and tools, as well as content. (21:35:18) megacoder: fer sure (21:35:47) stickster: There's a big nasty sed in there which it might be good to abstract out in some way... you'll jump on it, I'm sure (21:36:28) megacoder: Perhaps the "xmlstarlet" might be a good substitute; I'll consider it. (21:37:01) megacoder: As we allowed to consider / utilize Fedora Extras tools for this? (21:37:03) stickster: Actually, we might even be able to do it with XSL; I think when I put it in, I wasn't yet comfortable with that idea (21:37:24) megacoder: Yeah, xmlstarlet is just a convenience wrapper for that. (21:37:26) stickster: right (21:37:59) stickster: OK, sorry quaid (21:38:27) quaid: ? (21:38:31) stickster: k (21:38:42) quaid: beat writers (21:38:47) quaid: I'm OK with the gaps we have right now (21:38:56) quaid: and don't want to burn ill will with more active recrutiing (21:39:11) ***stickster will brb (21:39:12) quaid: I think the gaps will show themselves as ppl in those projects realize they are not getting coverage. (21:39:40) quaid: so ... I'm thinking of moving this recruiting of beat writers down to priority 2 and moving on. (21:39:41) quaid: thoughts? (21:40:14) megacoder: That should work. The squeeking wheel is the first to know it needs grease. (21:41:00) stickster: agree (21:41:34) quaid: coo' (21:41:48) quaid: ok, moved and moving on (21:41:52) quaid: (21:42:34) quaid: with the time we have left (21:42:46) quaid: I move we skip to the end of the priorty 1 items and discuss the survey results, as suggested (21:42:53) quaid: and table the rest to update next week. (21:43:19) stickster: no objection here (21:43:22) megacoder: I so move. (21:43:36) megacoder: Er, I second. (21:43:39) stickster: I *so* third. (21:43:43) quaid: all right, moving on (21:44:21) ***stickster and megacoder are quaid's lapdogs today, apparently (21:44:37) calennert left the room (quit: "heading home"). (21:45:01) stickster: hmm, need to generate more conflict... what to do, what to do? Ahh! *picks up pie* (21:46:03) megacoder: NO! Pick up sticks! (21:46:04) stickster: Speaking of pie in the face, I guess at least a few people looked at the results/summary (21:46:29) quaid: first thing to say, I saw those results a month ago or so (internally) and I took the chance to point out some of my favorite rants (21:46:43) quaid: and to point out that the support in beat writers, for example, is helping. (21:47:42) stickster: Yes it is... so people *want* a thriving Docs Project, but other than with (most) beats right now, they just don't want to *be* the Docs Project (21:48:05) quaid: did you see my marketing campaign suggestions? (21:48:12) megacoder: no (21:48:15) quaid: "Put your survey answers where your mouth is." (21:48:35) stickster: One day, we'll be like Queen (21:48:48) quaid: "X% of you think Fedora documentation sucks. If that % includes you, you can make it suck less." (21:48:49) megacoder: Well, the first two priorities were "stable" and "new features". Huh? (21:48:55) stickster: I loved that band WAY before Wayne's World made them cool again (21:49:23) stickster: megacoder: Right, that would be the big tug-of-war that knocked us out of first place :-D (21:50:11) megacoder: Well, a survey that puts emphasis on "A" and "not A" makes me a little cautious. (21:50:22) quaid: there is one part that I know will help (21:50:35) quaid: Red Hat has put zero in the way of resources into Fedora content stuff (21:50:49) quaid: I seriously expect that to change over the next 12 to 18 months. (21:51:02) quaid: that will grow the project and have the effect of attracting more interest. (21:51:05) stickster: Well, to be fair, they were just giving people a way to vote for what they want... some people want A, others not A -- same goes for release schedule -- some love 6 mos, others want 1 yr + (21:51:06) megacoder: Maybe that timing could be front-end loaded? (21:51:16) quaid: megacoder: I'm trying :) (21:51:53) megacoder: Do we need to dig a trench to lower the bar enough? (21:51:53) quaid: conceptually it is already there, that is, I think I am now doing my job and not just my volunteer work. (21:51:59) quaid: but that is not in my job description yet, so ... (21:52:52) quaid: well, that darn Wiki front-end to DocBook stuff would be the icing (21:53:09) quaid: but our internal help is on other things that are more biz important :/ (21:53:43) quaid: I think that is a core, following the experience of Mozilla devel docs (21:53:58) quaid: that we need to have a useful Wiki or easier way for people to work. (21:54:19) megacoder: I've found a sf.net project for DB import into OpenOffice; some dedicated RH support for that would be useful and anti-Wiki enough for me. (21:54:21) quaid: same with CMS ... that kind of workbench only helps us to integrate new people more easily, make them productive from the start. (21:56:16) quaid: well (21:56:21) quaid: what can we take out of that survey? (21:56:44) elliss: A lot of the people filling it were experienced users (21:56:45) EvilBob: I have a question (21:56:47) megacoder: (21:57:16) stickster: megacoder: You can see the current stuff in the openoffice.org-xsltfilter package if you have it installed (21:57:27) stickster: sorry if you knew that (21:57:30) EvilBob: Is there a way that the formal RHEL documentation can be edited to e relevent to Fedora? (21:57:38) stickster: EvilBob: Unfortunately, not with its licensing, no (21:57:50) stickster: EvilBob: That's one of the very first things we had to live with on the project (21:58:00) ***EvilBob just shakes his head (21:58:00) quaid: and even if that changes ... (21:58:07) stickster: You'll probably find several discussion threads about it early in the list archives (21:58:11) quaid: it won't solve anything, having a bunch of content and no one to work on it (21:58:17) stickster: quaid: good point (21:58:17) quaid: but (21:58:21) megacoder: stickster; that's for export, not import. (21:58:29) quaid: if it comes with help from RH to at least shepherd ... that would be good (21:58:43) stickster: Actually it does both as I remember -- there's a docbooktosoffheadings.xsl and a sofftodocbookheadings.xsl (21:58:55) stickster: But I don't think it's incredibly full-featured (21:59:09) quaid: OO.org is something we should encourage, yes (21:59:13) quaid: when it works right (21:59:24) quaid: maybe we do need a template or something customized we can upstream? (21:59:45) elliss: That might work for tutorials (21:59:47) stickster: This is something I might like to take another look at once FC5 goes gold and we have some packages rolling (21:59:58) stickster: Now that I've had the opportunity to learn some XSL{,T} (22:00:19) stickster: It's no longer Greek, now it's German (22:01:02) quaid: kewl (22:01:10) megacoder: Wait until it's linqua franca (22:02:42) _stickster_ [n=pfrields at ip68-110-253-201.dc.dc.cox.net] entered the room. (22:02:50) quaid: doppelganger! (22:03:15) _stickster_: quaid: sorry, laptop had been giving me fits so I abandoned it for the downstairs office (22:03:31) stickster left the room ("I'm melting!"). (22:05:40) _stickster_: So... (22:06:33) _stickster_: Has anyone had any contact re: screencast scripting etc.? (22:06:58) ***quaid forgot to send out the call (22:07:24) _stickster_: oops (22:08:37) quaid: I'll finish it now (22:09:02) _stickster_ is now known as stickster (22:09:17) megacoder: I'm jumping out of quaid lap after that faux-paw! (22:09:24) megacoder: (sic!) (22:09:30) quaid: boo hoo (22:10:20) stickster: OK... are we to AOB now? (22:11:51) quaid: sure (22:13:02) stickster: I want to encourage people to talk on the list about the IG and make sure people buy into the redesign (22:13:32) stickster: Sonar_Guy has done some work already on the wiki and hopefully we can build off that design in CVS (22:13:39) megacoder: Why is a redesign necessary? What is the shortcoming of the current layout? (22:14:21) EvilBob: Not so much a redesign, but a remapping (22:14:35) EvilBob: so it covers all the bases for a new user (22:14:37) stickster: The introduction and first few chapters are a little touch and go... the flow is hard for a newb to follow (22:14:49) stickster: The information is there, it's just not easy to follow (22:15:16) stickster: And it's less than explicit about a few things that are probably /de rigeur/ for long time users but less so for a newcomer (22:15:17) megacoder: I see that the current few chapters are feature-oriented instead of being task-oriented. (22:15:31) megacoder: s/current/first/ (22:15:53) stickster: Right, we're trying to make it a better flow (22:16:21) megacoder: Is now the time for suggestions, or will there be a different forum? (22:16:23) stickster: But rather than puff the document up into endless permutations of "if you already chose A, now do this; if you already chose B, now do this"... (22:16:55) stickster: ...we want to get the flow right, so that it's "Pick one from column A, one from column B, et al.", followed by "Here are your choices for column A, etc." (22:17:05) stickster: I would like to keep them on-list if possible (22:17:13) stickster: (the suggestions, that is) (22:17:43) stickster: I think this is a chance for the larger community to step up and pitch in their comments as well (22:18:00) stickster: The thing is, we will NEVER please 100% of the people (22:18:09) stickster: If we can make it work for 90% we've done a good job IMHO (22:18:12) megacoder: OK. I'm going to lobby for a per-method walkthrough chapter for each installation media followed by a "choosing packages" and a "first boot" common chapter. (22:18:41) stickster: megacoder: Go fer it (22:19:02) megacoder: as if... (22:19:15) megacoder: sorry; that looked wrong. withdrawn (22:19:39) stickster: :-D (22:20:26) Sonar_Guy: Ok, I am here now. (22:20:30) elliss: Stickster: can you or SonicGuy post a summary of your ideas/discussion to the list ? (22:20:44) Sonar_Guy: Yes I can. (22:21:07) elliss: Thanks. (22:21:08) stickster: elliss: I think Sonar_Guy did that yesterday, at least in part (22:21:20) stickster: oops, or maybe not (?) (22:22:09) stickster: http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2006-January/msg00006.html (22:22:10) Sonar_Guy: No not really, but the idea for a layout in on the wiki http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs/Drafts/InstallationGuide/ (22:23:34) elliss: OK. Feel free to hack the DocBook and post a copy of the HTML it builds (22:23:37) stickster: Sonar_Guy: Don't feel like you have to attack this stuff by yourself (22:23:44) stickster: You don't have to bring a complete finished product for us to consider it (22:23:56) elliss: That may be quicker than replicating it all in Wiki (22:24:32) elliss: Since it looks like you just want to change the first couple of files/chapters (22:24:42) Sonar_Guy: Will do, it is all new to me so this may take a little bit of time. (22:25:05) stickster: Sonar_Guy: All the more reason to do the part that's easy for you now, and let elliss and I pick up the baton as we move into areas with which you're less familiar (22:25:12) Sonar_Guy: right most of it will follow your original flow, it is the installation method I would like to see changed. (22:25:30) elliss: Sonar_Guy: I'm around here on Thursdays and Mondays (22:25:50) elliss: Sometimes Wednesday as well (22:25:51) EvilBob: Yes we cleared a lot of confusion up in FedoraUnity discussions (22:25:53) Sonar_Guy: Well I got the files from the CVS and it looks pretty easy to modify once I started looking at it. (22:26:17) stickster: Right (22:26:35) stickster: You could simply issue patches to the list (22:26:51) stickster: Or whatever you're comfortable with -- just post the files on the wiki as Attachments (22:27:03) stickster: We could use it as sort of a "drop box" during this proces (22:27:17) calennert [n=calenner at 66-191-55-096.dhcp.gnvl.sc.charter.com] entered the room. (22:27:24) elliss: Perhaps attach patches to the BZ bug we have going (22:27:49) quaid: I've invited the RHEL IG maintainer to watch/chime in on any list discussion (22:27:50) Sonar_Guy: Ok, that works for me. I did not really want to play with CVS write, so I will do that and put the modified files in the RFE. (22:28:50) quaid: -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com Fri Jan 6 18:36:27 2006 From: Tommy.Reynolds at MegaCoder.com (Tommy Reynolds) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 12:36:27 -0600 Subject: RPM Packaging For The Masses, Part 1+2 Message-ID: <20060106123627.cdea9b4a.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Hello, As I review Paul's excellent RPM packaging tools, it seems we could be giving the doc authors a head start in replacing the embedded and elements with the "rpm-info.xml" file, from which we derive everything needed to build the RPM's and keep all the author/revision information consistent. Two steps will be required to get all this working for the masses: 1) Authors must replace the or with a separate "rpm-info.xml" file; and 2) "docs-common/Makefile.common" must be updated with the RPM rules. I have the example-tutorial and the docs-common/Makefile.common ready to check-in and thus require that each document have a "fdp-info-${LANG}.xml" file before the document will build. I've already checked in a "docs-common/bin/db2rpm-info" script to make extracting the "rpm-info.xml" file data as simple as possible. This seems to be a natural checkpoint before moving on to working on the RPM packaging stuff. Getting the RPM rules packaged properly could take a few more days, and doc authors could be busily cranking out the "rpm-info.xml" files. Question: should I: a) go ahead a check in the "rpm-info.xml" changes, along with a message to the list; or b) wait until all the RPM infrastructure is ready and do it all in one fell swoop? I'd prefer to a) go ahead now. Paul or I should do a quick HOW-TO about what goes into the "rpm-info.xml" file so that would be available concurrently with step (a). Pay me now, or pay me later ;-) Comments? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stuart at elsn.org Fri Jan 6 19:36:13 2006 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 19:36:13 +0000 Subject: RPM Packaging For The Masses, Part 1+2 In-Reply-To: <20060106123627.cdea9b4a.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> References: <20060106123627.cdea9b4a.Tommy.Reynolds@MegaCoder.com> Message-ID: <1136576173.2888.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2006-01-06 at 12:36 -0600, Tommy Reynolds wrote: > Question: should I: a) go ahead a check in the "rpm-info.xml" changes, > along with a message to the list; or b) wait until all the RPM > infrastructure is ready and do it all in one fell swoop? > > I'd prefer to a) go ahead now. Paul or I should do a quick HOW-TO > about what goes into the "rpm-info.xml" file so that would be > available concurrently with step (a). I'm OK with that. Karsten is actually the person most likely to be affected by modifications to the build system, though - the test2 Release Notes are probably the only document that will be released in the next couple of weeks. -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Tue Jan 17 03:55:30 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 22:55:30 -0500 Subject: Meeting tomorrow Message-ID: <1137470130.26451.27.camel@localhost.localdomain> Gang, My abject apologies, but I cannot attend tomorrow's meeting. I have a rehearsal tomorrow that I can't reschedule. I'm irked because I wanted to drop some info regarding the docs-common module enhancements Tommy and I have been making. If someone could summarize questions I will be happy to drop a reply on-list so everyone can get any information that's missing or unclear. I don't have time to update the wiki before then, unfortunately. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stuart at elsn.org Tue Jan 17 22:33:16 2006 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 22:33:16 +0000 Subject: IRC Log FDSCo Meeting 17 January 2005 Message-ID: <1137537196.2903.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> (21:11:22) quaid: (21:13:26) quaid: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/FedoraDocsSchedule (21:13:55) quaid: hmm (21:13:58) quaid: I can't seem to edit that page (21:14:08) quaid: it says immutable (21:14:31) elliss: Expired login ? (21:15:41) quaid: probably (21:15:48) quaid: never had that happen before (21:15:52) nman64: No, there seems to be a problem. (21:16:14) mether: nman64, yes. there is a problem. I am not able to edit any pages (21:16:25) megacoder: All pages seem immutable. (21:16:50) BobJensen: Oh fun (21:17:10) BobJensen: I hope we did not break the Wiki, I was just starting to like it (21:17:11) quaid: all right, well (21:17:22) quaid: ok, short meeting needed anyway (21:17:32) nman64: If you want to carry on with the meeting, I'll see about getting it fixed. (21:17:51) quaid: the only thing on my mind is getting a replacement editor-in-chief for the relnotes (21:17:57) quaid: and getting some more automation around it (21:18:33) BobJensen: Oh a job is open? (21:18:49) quaid: depends on what you mean by job :) (21:18:53) BobJensen: LOL (21:18:55) mether: BobJensen, its all yours (21:19:00) quaid: yeah, I'm firing myself because of multiple missed schedules (21:19:07) quaid: but I need a replacement first (21:19:14) BobJensen: quaid: If you will train me I will sign up (21:19:18) quaid: done (21:19:21) quaid: I' (21:19:23) quaid: I' (21:19:25) quaid: arrgh! (21:19:41) BobJensen: Your studdering (21:19:49) quaid: BobJensen: I'll get with you in the next few days and we can work out a co-joined effort for test3, identify what needs automation and how, etc. (21:19:51) mether: quaid, are you firing yourself off the chair. we have a predence in Fedora Extras now (21:20:01) BobJensen: quaid: works for me (21:20:09) quaid: mether: only from E-in-C duties for the relnotes (21:20:10) G2: Sorry guys (21:20:20) quaid: which I have wanted to hand off for six months anyway (21:20:50) G2: I need to get one of those "I won't fix your computer, as you're family" t-shirts (21:21:16) quaid: I think we can use XIncludes to pull in the
s that Moin Moin outputs (21:21:17) stickster: quaid: Expired signons on wiki are running rampant... same thing happened to me last night. Signing on again fixed it for me (21:21:19) megacoder: I you don't want to do it, screw it up. (21:21:24) quaid: that will help with the automation of content migration. (21:21:35) quaid: stickster: thanks for your save yesterday, btw (21:21:58) stickster: quaid: Sorry I wasn't comfortable doing the whole thing... I got enough done for us to get by at least (21:22:19) stickster: The whole tag thing was confusing me... was I supposed to tag the new rpm-info.xml in some way to match something already frozen? You can see my confusion (21:22:31) StillBob [n=evilbob at pdpc/supporter/sustaining/BobJensen] entered the room. (21:22:39) stickster: Or maybe not, since I am a dolt (21:23:07) ***quaid can't find a logout now :) (21:23:21) quaid: stickster: it didn't exist back then (21:23:37) StillBob left the room (quit: Client Quit). (21:23:43) quaid: stickster: the solution would be to fix what I didn't do, which is to tag the earlier version of the Makefile that didn't need the rpm0-info,.xml (21:23:52) stickster: OIC (21:24:06) quaid: I just made that up, too! (21:24:17) stickster: Shh... I won't tell anyone if you... D'OH!! (21:24:28) StillBob [n=evilbob at pdpc/supporter/sustaining/BobJensen] entered the room. (21:24:37) EvilBob left the room (quit: Nick collision from services.). (21:25:04) StillBob is now known as EvilBob (21:25:09) G2: Noone going to say hi? ;-) (21:25:26) stickster: Hi G2 (21:25:27) quaid: G2: hi! (21:25:29) megacoder: HI, G2! (21:25:30) G2: Ha (21:25:38) megacoder: HI, G2! (21:25:39) megacoder: HI, G2! (21:25:41) megacoder: HI, G2! (21:25:42) megacoder: HI, G2! (21:25:43) megacoder: HI, G2! (21:25:43) megacoder: HI, G2! (21:25:45) EvilBob: Hi G2 (21:25:45) megacoder: HI, G2! (21:25:46) stickster: quaid: Immutable page problem is hitting me too (21:25:54) stickster: nman64: I am signed in but pages are immutable for me (21:26:01) stickster: I am listed in EditGroup (21:26:06) nman64: I know. We're looking into it. (21:26:15) stickster: nman64: OK, sorry to bug ya (21:26:20) nman64: np (21:26:31) EvilBob: hey nman64 is somethign wrong with the wiki... (21:26:36) ***EvilBob hides (21:26:37) ***stickster checks chatlog... *KONK* (21:27:06) nman64: Ya know, EvilBob, I'm not sure. Maybe I should look into it. ;-) (21:27:26) EvilBob: hehehe (21:27:49) EvilBob: I bet it is a PHP exploit.. oh never mind (21:27:54) EvilBob: LOL (21:27:58) quaid: so, the other thing, which I would want to talk with nman64 about, but we can fill him in later ... (21:28:06) quaid: is how to better pull and push content from the Wiki (21:28:25) quaid: the rest of that schedule of tasks ... well, we can talk about that, too, first (21:28:29) quaid: then will do my AOB, I guess (21:28:41) quaid: So ... looking at our tasks, any updates? in order, pls (21:28:46) quaid: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/FedoraDocsSchedule (21:28:51) stickster: Rawhide? (21:29:07) quaid: DocsRawhide -- still collecting ideas, no new movement, need a dedicate infrastructure help I reckon (21:29:15) stickster: *nod (21:29:16) quaid: Packagin'? (21:29:35) stickster: Yup... since I'm here, I was going to mention again how important it is for people to start converting to the new rpm-info.xml (21:29:50) stickster: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/PackagePrep (21:29:55) megacoder: Essential, even. (21:30:06) stickster: *disco (21:30:27) stickster: I.e., builds won't work until you convert, which I suppose is a great way of getting 100% compliance :-D (21:31:00) megacoder: I thought that would be the gentlest nudge. (21:31:05) elliss: Should we be using clog as standard from this point ? (21:31:19) quaid: clog? (21:31:22) stickster: make clog (21:31:34) stickster: It's a great idea, but you can always edit the XML by hand... using make clog ensures you will get valid XML (21:31:43) stickster: (So does a DTD-aware editor like vi, Emacs, etc.) (21:31:59) megacoder: jedit.org! (21:32:00) stickster: So, yes, use "make clog" when you make a revision to the document (21:32:16) stickster: And use "make colophon" if you ever need to add an additional author, editor, or translator (21:32:59) stickster: (Currently you also have to manually add an , , element, but that's pretty easy... we will try to make it easier with an auto-tool (21:33:40) elliss: Naive question: could the version etc. entities currently in the main file come from the rpm-info.xml ? (21:33:51) stickster: They do (21:33:53) stickster: Oh (21:33:54) stickster: sorry (21:34:37) megacoder: All of the "meta-information", such as authors, versions, and change log info, goes in the rpm info file. Everything else is derived from that. (21:34:49) stickster: megacoder: He's talking about DOCBASE, DOCVERSION, DOCDATE (21:35:12) megacoder: Oh. OK, just advertising, then. (21:35:13) stickster: So I suppose the answer is "yes, if we write a li'l sump'n sump'n to write a doc-specific entities file on the side" (21:35:25) stickster: The answer is also "no, not right now" :-) (21:35:33) stickster: elliss: But not naive, a GREAT question (21:35:46) elliss: OK. I'll just be careful to keep the bits in sync (21:35:57) stickster: I thought the same thing last night when I wrote one of my emails... "Gee, it sure would be nice if people didn't have to remember to make 2 changes instead of just 1" (21:36:11) megacoder: Actually, that fits into the "fdp-info-${LANG}.xml" file rather well, I think. (21:36:13) stickster: elliss: So, yes, consider it now on the drawing board (21:36:24) stickster: megacoder: Unfortunately we can't declare entities there (21:36:43) stickster: We would have to have a system entity in the prolog, and then write it as a separate file (21:36:45) megacoder: Just an implementation detail, though. (21:36:58) stickster: The ideer's the same (21:37:13) quaid: stickster: can you declare XIncludes? (21:37:45) stickster: I have no idea... does MarkJ ever show up here any more? let's get an answer from him (21:37:52) stickster: And kick his tush off FDSCo otherwise (21:37:53) stickster: :-D (21:38:01) nman64: Okay, wiki should be fixed. You /might/ need to logout and back in. (21:38:27) stickster: nman64: looking good (21:38:33) quaid: stickster: don't know that we kick people off other than for negligence of duty ... and without duties, you can't be negligent, right? (21:38:37) stickster: right (21:38:40) elliss: nman64: Thanks. (21:38:40) quaid: stickster: but we can make a motion to replace his position (21:38:44) stickster: sorry, I was joking only (21:38:47) quaid: on the active board (21:38:48) EvilBob: WOW and service with a smile, I am impressed (21:39:02) quaid: stickster: well, I actually was going to ask (21:39:12) quaid: if we wanted to review the # of active FDSCo members and increase it? (21:39:19) quaid: or do we not want to suck the blood of more people (21:39:21) quaid: ? (21:39:29) stickster: Increase, no (21:39:39) megacoder: TCF? (21:39:46) stickster: I was thinking the size was a little large for the number of active participants we have (21:40:00) quaid: well, the inactive go go inactive (21:40:05) quaid: s/go go/could go/ (21:40:15) elliss: Reserve members :) (21:40:24) quaid: active == quaid, stickster, megacoder, g2, elliss (21:40:25) stickster: Call 'em up and move 'em out (21:40:27) quaid: is five big enough? (21:40:44) stickster: When we have a community of about 10-12, I would think so :-D (21:40:51) quaid: there ya go (21:41:04) megacoder: Is there a current problem we're having due to size? (21:41:06) stickster: Bob, Ig, Rahul, Scott, Scott's wife, a couple others...? (21:41:13) stickster: megacoder: Speak for yourself (21:41:17) quaid: yeah, gregdek asked me last night if it was time for me to pass on the hat around here, and I said first we need to get all the way dressed. (21:41:56) ***stickster is getting ready to duck out, sorry (21:41:57) elliss: If there's an obvious candidate, IMO we should increase the size rather than not (21:42:03) elliss: OK. Second naive question on packaging: what will the end outcome be, i.e. where will the built RPMs go for FC5 ? (21:42:09) stickster: FE (21:42:18) EvilBob: OK Kid duty here, will be back as StillBob (21:42:38) quaid: stickster won't be here next week? (21:42:39) G2: Size isn't everything boys ;-) (21:42:44) quaid: on this meeting, I mean (21:43:00) stickster: Crap, probably not... out of town on business (21:43:04) quaid: elliss: the thing is, for a while the only cool thing we had to offer people was this committee (21:43:06) G2: Ha (21:43:19) elliss: Suggestion: could we have a script in FC to pull in the Docs set from FE ? (21:43:19) stickster: Now we have punch and pie too (21:43:35) quaid: which docs set? (21:43:46) elliss: IG, yum, mirror... (21:44:00) stickster: The only problem with doing it in FC is that FE is built more as a rolling repo, so changes get communicated out more quickly (21:44:01) nman64: With properly defined groups, that script would simply be 'yum groupinstall blah'. (21:44:26) elliss: nman64: Yes, with a graphical wrapper :) (21:44:39) stickster: Now that FE works out of the box, it might make a better fit (21:45:23) stickster: Plus, you can make a good case that docs are not "vital" per se to the Core functionality, and the move has generally been to reduce its size (21:45:41) elliss: I'd make the opposite case :) (21:46:00) megacoder: What's another ISO image, more or less? (21:46:04) Sonar_Guy [n=sglaser at ip70-174-58-25.hr.hr.cox.net] entered the room. (21:46:25) stickster: :-) The only thing I could see keeping on the Core disc set would be a copy of the IG, and *maybe* the yum doc (21:46:53) nman64: The IG? "Congratulations, you've just installed Fedora Core! Now, here's how to install Fedora Core!" (21:46:54) stickster: But even that... most people need the IG *before* they get the ISO's, so I'm not sure that really helps as much as we might think (21:47:00) stickster: nman64: disco (21:47:06) elliss: I was thinking the IG, and the Getting Started Guide (when ready) (21:47:10) megacoder: Rel Notes would be appropriate, don't you thing. (21:47:15) megacoder: s/thing/think/g (21:47:20) nman64: megacoder: We already have those. ;-) (21:47:24) stickster: relnotes goes without saying -- or maybe not :-) -- they're there already (21:47:30) StillBob [n=bobjense at pdpc/supporter/sustaining/BobJensen] entered the room. (21:47:31) elliss: GSG may well have something on graphical package install, I guess (21:47:34) stickster: included as part of fedora-release pkg (21:47:36) nman64: GSG, definitely. (21:48:16) stickster: I think the best thing we could have would be a prominent mention and a URL at the top of the relnotes, and the FIRST PAGE that comes up from that link says, "yum fedora-doc-*" or something to that effect (21:48:32) stickster: From that point on, it's on their Help menu, Documentation submenu, etc. (21:48:50) stickster: Or maybe even put the commands themselves at the top of the relnotes (21:49:23) elliss: I think that we could have a couple of dedicated relnotes sessions (21:49:27) StillBob: Marty and I are thinking that the GSG would fit between the IG and Desktop Guides, are we thinking correctly? (21:49:36) stickster: stickster: I think you're right FWIW (21:49:41) elliss: StillBob: I thought so (21:49:46) stickster: GSG is for Grandma (21:49:56) stickster: Grandma's Starting Guide (21:50:01) StillBob: LOL (21:50:03) stickster: OK, really I have to run now (21:50:05) stickster: Bye all (21:50:10) StillBob: you are being a stinkster again (21:50:16) stickster: *snif (21:50:18) stickster left the room (quit: "Ex-Chat"). (21:51:53) quaid: well well (21:52:37) quaid: anything else? (21:52:49) StillBob: quaid: can we set a time for our first meeting on teh RelNotes? (21:52:53) quaid: aye (21:53:30) quaid: StillBob: I'd like nman64 to be there, because much of what is there right now could use some love before we do it again (21:53:38) quaid: i.e., I don't want to teach a process that I want to dump (21:53:45) StillBob: Sure (21:53:50) StillBob: that is logical (21:54:13) quaid: I think there are better ways to get the content out of the Wiki right now without having to rewrite MOin MOin (21:54:23) quaid: so ... (21:54:41) G2: so (21:54:59) quaid: StillBob: let' (21:55:06) ***nman64 harkens. (21:55:08) quaid: s get nman64's attention when he notices us (21:55:10) quaid: ah ha! (21:55:19) StillBob: Just let me know, thursdays are the only bad evening for me normally (21:55:46) StillBob: I am also commonly available in the day time (21:58:01) quaid: tomorrow afternoon would be OK for me (21:58:05) quaid: or Thursday all day (21:58:17) quaid: Tonight late and Wed. late are also OK (21:59:04) StillBob: wednesday eve we are hacking zope + plone for Fedora Unity (21:59:22) StillBob: Tonight I am doing a Ham Radio Install (21:59:48) quaid: cool! (22:00:00) StillBob: lets shoot for thursday in the day if that is ok with Patrick (22:00:27) quaid: 11 am PST/1 pm CST? (22:00:36) StillBob: that is perfect for me (22:01:13) quaid: we can talk ideas with nman64 first, then let him go and follow with the details between the two of us about access, details, etc. (22:01:56) nman64: I can't promise that time, but I'll try my damnedest. (22:02:55) quaid: ok, if there is a better time? (22:03:02) quaid: we can always talk with you later, too (22:03:09) quaid: after StillBob understands stuff better :) (22:03:22) nman64: Later hours are easiest for me. (22:03:29) quaid: roger that (22:04:06) G2: Minutes of that going to be avail? (22:05:00) StillBob: want to do this wednesday about 10pm cst / 8pm pst? (22:05:17) StillBob: that I should be able to do (22:05:19) nman64: That'd be good for me. (22:05:35) quaid: ok, I'll be here (22:05:40) StillBob: I can do my fedora unity stuff and then shift gears (22:05:45) quaid: StillBob: let's keep Thu. open as a time to continue, just in case (22:05:58) StillBob: quaid: sounds great (22:06:10) quaid: -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stuart at elsn.org Tue Jan 24 22:25:39 2006 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 22:25:39 +0000 Subject: IRC Log FDSCo Meeting January 24 2006 Message-ID: <1138141539.2855.36.camel@localhost.localdomain> (21:05:42) quaid: (21:05:53) quaid: greetings amig{o,a}s (21:06:53) megacoder: Good morning, teacher. (21:08:33) quaid: oh, gee (21:09:40) ***quaid had his chat tab stolen (21:09:45) quaid: my least favorite xchat "feature" (21:09:54) quaid: Ok, so ... (21:10:13) quaid: I forget ... are we discussing the OPL? (21:10:27) quaid: is this a good time to start a first in-meeting discussion? (21:10:46) quaid: because IMO that is a pressing need, for AOB? (21:11:02) quaid: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/FedoraDocsSchedule (21:11:16) ***quaid adds the OPL research and report to the Open Tasks (21:11:29) elliss: Do we have a quorum ? (21:11:42) quaid: elliss, megacoder, stickster, g2, quaid (21:11:51) stickster: Here (21:12:06) megacoder: +sleeping (21:12:10) BobJensen: quaid: FedoraUnity also has questions abotu the lic options to make sure we are inline with Fedora-Docs (21:13:17) quaid: good (21:13:20) quaid: let's get those all solved (21:13:34) quaid: I'll role through the open tasks then we can discuss the OPL, ok? (21:13:47) elliss: Ok (21:13:50) Bob-Laptop: Let 'er rip boss (21:14:08) quaid: DocsRawhide is still taking suggestions :) (21:14:18) quaid: Packaging is in open season (21:14:29) quaid: megacoder, stickster: anything for our earn? (21:15:00) megacoder: I think we're down to the fine-tuning stage. Stickster, you agree? (21:15:09) G2: brb. Ben is being a pain tonight. Will NOT sleep!! (21:15:11) stickster: I had a chance to make a few minor corrections over the weekend to ensure rpm-info.xml stays sane... but yes, I'd say that too (21:15:37) quaid: sweet (21:15:58) stickster: Still needed -- getting things through Fedora Extras process... we may need to coordinate this with FESCo (21:16:10) megacoder: I don't think the CVS release-notes or installation-guide will build RPM's yet. (21:16:21) MicroBob [n=upirc at pdpc/supporter/sustaining/BobJensen] entered the room. (21:17:10) megacoder: stickster; what sort of things? (21:20:00) stickster: Sorry, I am peeking in momentarily -- I am on Pacific time and at work right now (21:20:11) stickster: things = packages (21:20:41) stickster: megacoder: I'll take a look at relnotes, IG tonight if I can (21:22:06) megacoder: OK. I get errors on the translated documents; just "make rpm" and stand back. (21:22:51) stickster: megacoder: I see a problem in that ja_JP is missing some translations (21:23:07) megacoder: BTW: the relnotes has their own cobbled-up "make rpm" stuff that I haven't taken out. (21:23:16) megacoder: s/has/have/g (21:23:33) stickster: megacoder: You should feel free -- I think quaid copied them in from my example-tutorial crapfest (21:23:49) quaid: prolly (21:24:00) quaid: in fact, the entire Makefile can be replaced, I reckon (21:24:16) megacoder: Very good. I'll fire up vi and get on it. (21:24:27) quaid: ok, then (21:24:31) quaid: General Recruiting (21:24:49) quaid: I am doing another internal recruiting email, for Fedora in general. (21:25:07) stickster: We have had a *LOT* of people signing up lately... (21:25:10) ***stickster is happy (21:25:15) quaid: true (21:25:30) quaid: I continue to think our best recruiting is just the work that we do (21:25:33) quaid: and being visible about it (21:25:40) quaid: so, in that regards, good on ya'll (21:25:51) MicroBob: quaid, I have been sending people to the docs wiki pages when I hear things in #fedora (21:26:07) quaid: yeah, we need to spearhead moving over to fp.o pretty soon (21:26:31) elliss: The Wiki definitely helps. (21:26:33) quaid: MicroBob: a good on you, too, mate! (21:26:58) quaid: I am trying hard to get our internal DocBook Wiki needs to be worked on within a Fedora context as a joint project (21:27:07) quaid: so, we'll see how that goes, soon I hope (21:28:17) quaid: ok (21:28:19) quaid: Wiki2XML (21:28:31) quaid: nman64, MicroBob, and I discussed this last week (21:28:40) quaid: I think that XIncludes are going to save us hassle (21:28:49) quaid: and allow us to have the Wiki be truly canonial for the beats right now (21:28:57) quaid: but it requires that we give up pretty tagging (21:29:02) quaid: to accept whatever the Wiki gives us for now (21:29:14) quaid: i.e., a Wiki is a lossy compression scheme (to quote nman64) (21:29:56) quaid: so, I'm thinking that we want the Wiki2XML stuff to be a F Websites project, we give whatever resources and support we have over there (21:30:09) quaid: and it will certainly end up requiring Infrastructure help (21:30:39) stickster: *nod (21:30:53) quaid: Ok, trans (21:31:04) quaid: Bernd wrote the i18n.redhat.com cgi stuff (21:31:12) quaid: and he is too swamped to get is integrated right now (21:31:20) quaid: I asked if I got community resources, could that help (21:31:23) quaid: and possibly, yes (21:31:32) quaid: the major hurdle is that Trans is still on i18n.r.c (21:31:46) quaid: once we are in cvs.fedora together, it's easier to do the fun stuff (21:32:06) quaid: and we can set dates for stuff and have it ready, and the i18n.r.c stuff handles the trans itself (21:32:18) quaid: we are likely to pick up more languages translated across all the content, I hope :) (21:32:55) quaid: megacoder: if you are available to help with any of this, I'd like to connect you with Bernd, your trust level might be high enough to get you started on something for it. (21:33:18) megacoder: Fine. (21:33:28) quaid: thxc (21:33:33) quaid: "Thanks C!" (21:33:44) quaid: ok, about relnotes (21:34:01) quaid: we had a first meeting last week, MicroBob is going to shadow me on the test3 notes and *hopefully* we (21:34:10) quaid: we'll work up some better automation (21:34:18) quaid: XIncludes in particular (21:34:28) quaid: helping (21:34:57) quaid: if megacoder or stickster or anyone else even partially groks XIncludes, let's have a discussion on f-websites-l about how to do this, OK? (21:35:01) megacoder: You got a pointer about xincludes with DB? (21:35:08) quaid: it's not really a DB thing (21:35:11) quaid: it's an XML thing (21:35:18) quaid: but they can be used like ENTITY but more pow'ful (21:35:34) quaid: i.e., the target file can be a real XML doc with (21:35:47) megacoder: Not me. I've tried getting it to work with DB but had trouble adding the xi: namespace to a DB document. (21:35:51) quaid: and when you XInclude it, you say, make this thing be a section, appendix, book etc. (21:35:58) G2: I've played with them, but they're a pain (21:36:04) quaid: ok, well, that experience will help (21:36:17) quaid: oh, right, I never reported on xmldiff :) (21:36:22) G2: WE did it for the Amanda docs conversion to DB XMl (21:36:22) quaid: which didn't act as I expected (21:36:39) G2: All the manpages were included with XIncludes (21:36:39) megacoder: My interest was that every XML snipped could have its own referencing the proper DTD and avoid all this emacs-preloading stuff. (21:36:51) quaid: megacoder: that's another bennie (21:37:02) G2: use nxml-mode (21:37:09) quaid: he uses vi (21:37:13) megacoder: I'll not use either ;-) (21:37:20) megacoder: "jedit.org" for me. (21:37:21) quaid: and other editors such as J-edit (21:37:22) quaid: ah, right (21:37:37) quaid: and Conglomerate (RIP?) would want the doctype (21:37:43) megacoder: But I'd like to get the inserted so we could edit files indivirually. (21:37:50) quaid: yep (21:37:57) G2: yes, that's a good point (21:37:58) quaid: so, we're going to work on that for the relnotes (21:38:04) G2: with entitys you can't (21:38:05) quaid: the Wiki outputs (21:38:07) megacoder: All this for free if we can get xincludes to include. (21:38:27) quaid: and we want to pull them in as s and
s (21:38:32) G2: we should co the amanda docs for tips on this (21:38:50) G2: we converted manpages to db xml with doclifter and then used xincludes (21:38:51) quaid: cool (21:38:55) quaid: nice (21:39:30) G2: I have example code if needed (21:39:35) quaid: please :) (21:39:43) quaid: so, is this a f-websites-l or f-docs-l discussion? (21:39:49) G2: docs (21:39:53) quaid: everyone is on f-docs-l (21:39:55) quaid: ok (21:40:01) G2: nowt to do with websites ;-) (21:40:05) quaid: nman64's script is still working to get us XML (21:40:09) quaid: well, the pre-part does :) (21:40:22) megacoder: If we're done with that, you mentioned xmldiff? (21:40:28) quaid: oh, right (21:40:42) quaid: it seemed to produce a standard -u diff (21:40:48) quaid: all the tags were visible, etc. (21:40:49) quaid: now (21:40:56) quaid: I don't think the XML matched that well (21:41:08) quaid: which is why I got to thinking about how to use the existing XML without cut-n-paste (21:41:26) G2: is this conversion from the wiki? (21:41:31) quaid: I'm not sure we need it, with the current 1:1 of files to Wiki beats (21:41:37) quaid: yeah, and it had to cross files (21:41:45) quaid: now it mayn't need to, if XIncludes work (21:41:50) quaid: but I do want a working xmldiff (21:41:57) megacoder: Try the different xmldiff options. (21:42:05) quaid: I forget, stickster and I talked about it (21:42:14) quaid: we need an IRC logging bot (21:42:39) Bob-Laptop: quaid, I will set one up for us (21:42:47) quaid: cool, thanks (21:43:06) quaid: I have the log around here somewhere, but it would be nice to grep for it locally and use the logbot output as URL :) (21:43:12) quaid: or even to google for it, eventually (21:43:16) stickster: quaid: Which xmldiff are you using? The Logilab one? (21:43:24) quaid: see, that's what I can't remember (21:43:51) stickster: :-) The Logilab one outputs changes in Xupdate XML spec, or other primitives (21:43:52) quaid: DecisionSoft one (21:44:03) stickster: I have the Logilab one in Fedora Extras... ALMOST (21:44:08) quaid: ok (21:44:15) stickster: There's a build problem with ppc I haven't licked yet (21:44:23) stickster: Or was it x86_64? Anyhoo... (21:44:24) quaid: we'll use it on another project, I'm hoping we can just have the wiki be canonical (21:44:39) quaid: so, since we spoke last (21:44:46) quaid: I did try to get some action on a few toolchain items: (21:44:54) quaid: * bugged twaugh about xmlto changes, no response yet (21:44:59) megacoder: I didn't like that one because I couldn't get a stable version to play with. When its FE'ed, I'll look at it again. (21:45:10) quaid: * need to bug agreen about Java details, are those going to make it into FC5 since the schedule slipped so much? (21:45:24) mutk [n=mutk at pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mutk] entered the room. (21:46:22) ***quaid does that latter bugging right now (21:47:46) quaid: http://wiki.apache.org/xmlgraphics/GnuClasspathCompatibility (21:47:51) quaid: that seems to be the status page (21:47:55) quaid: it's the Batik problem :) (21:48:44) quaid: OK, so, I'll let you know when I hear more about that one (21:48:58) quaid: I skipped the f.r.c/docs to fp.o/docs move (21:49:03) quaid: which I don't have a status on (21:49:14) quaid: it's waiting on a CMS (21:49:23) quaid: because we don't want to bother to move the existing PHP cr4p (21:49:30) quaid: which has worked quite well, etc.!!! (21:49:36) ***quaid doesn't disparage crap that works (21:49:45) quaid: but we don't want to move to the new house with the dust from the old house, you dig>? (21:49:51) ***MicroBob bites his lip (21:49:56) quaid: so, that waits for that (21:50:03) quaid: MicroBob: or speak out, your choice :) (21:50:28) MicroBob: not the sysadmin, not my place (21:50:33) quaid: oic (21:50:37) quaid: yeah, that's OT :) (21:50:41) ***quaid is all politick n shit (21:50:49) MicroBob: yup (21:51:01) quaid: oh, look, the colophon item is done, I'll move that down to completed (21:51:37) G2: Here are your xincludes. Took me a while. (21:51:38) G2: http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/amanda/xml-docs/howto/index.xml?view=markup (21:52:10) G2: (21:52:13) G2: etc. (21:52:20) G2: (21:52:30) G2: easy (21:52:47) quaid: does it derive the hierarchy from it's position in the doc? (21:52:54) G2: Note the book id (21:52:55) quaid: or do you need to specify what element it is? (21:52:57) G2: yes (21:53:00) G2: (21:54:02) megacoder: Sweet. I'm getting xi: ideas... (21:54:25) megacoder: I've always hated &entities; (21:54:29) quaid: yep (21:54:39) quaid: XIncludes were supposed to be a promise, but I never knew what for ,but I do now :) (21:54:48) G2: every include has the doctype at the top (21:54:51) quaid: ok, (21:54:52) quaid: a few minutes for the OPL (21:54:55) quaid: (21:54:57) G2: k (21:55:07) quaid: So, we're talking about moving over to the OPL without options (21:55:09) G2: automatic scripts? (21:55:11) quaid: v. the GNU FDL (21:55:14) ***BobJensen sits back down (21:55:15) G2: sorry, go on (21:55:26) G2: See Debian moved (21:55:32) quaid: yep (21:55:47) quaid: we've been discussing this since last Summer (Northern Hemisphere, that is) (21:56:00) quaid: ain't no time like the present (21:56:21) quaid: I'd like us to all be ready to discuss, explain (21:56:29) quaid: why? how? who? when? (21:56:33) quaid: so, we have: (21:56:38) quaid: well (21:56:42) quaid: maybe we need a Wiki page for this? (21:56:44) quaid: thoughts? (21:56:46) G2: yes (21:56:54) BobJensen: I think that would be a good idea (21:56:58) G2: So much bad about GNU at the moment (21:57:04) G2: It makes me feel bad (21:57:08) stickster: Guys, I want to participate but I'm in the middle of a discussion in a workshop, and will have to duck out (21:57:10) G2: After what GNU has done (21:57:19) G2: for us all (21:57:22) BobJensen: Later stickster (21:57:31) stickster: Still monitoring, just away (21:57:39) quaid: G2: just the GFDL? or are there rumblings about the GPL v3? (21:57:56) G2: both (21:58:01) G2: Just seems mad (21:58:22) G2: We wouldn't have Linux or any of this stuff without RMS's work (21:58:24) quaid: haven't heard any v3 rumblings, but I'm not listening. (21:58:26) G2: Anyway.... (21:58:27) quaid: no doubt! (21:58:38) quaid: I understand why they wrote the GFDL, but I think it was the wrong decision (21:58:43) quaid: it's OK to make wrong decisions, we all do it (21:59:53) G2: so, a wiki page (21:59:56) quaid: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/OPLDiscussion (22:00:15) quaid: and we can migrate content to DocsProject/OPL (22:00:21) BobJensen: what are the pluses and minuses of each lic type (22:00:26) quaid: and that is canonical for our OPL discussions in the future? (22:00:37) quaid: BobJensen: risks getting into a put-down of the GFDL (22:00:49) quaid: how do we do that with out being negative toward it ... too much, that is? (22:00:49) G2: this iwll have been discussed before. Can we try to find a summary somewhere? (22:01:01) quaid: we are not saying that the GFDL has to be removed, but that the OPL has to be added (22:01:27) quaid: here, I'll take a stab at the page (22:01:39) quaid: and then send a link to f-dsco-l to start discussions (22:01:50) quaid: we want people to pick up the rumor as we are going, so that there aren't surprises :) (22:02:04) quaid: and we get a chance to answer and learn from some objections, early on, before a Big Announcement (22:02:08) quaid: sensible? (22:02:23) megacoder: +1 (22:02:29) quaid: BobJensen: if you aren't on f-dsco-l, I invite you to join in :) (22:02:42) quaid: everyone else, too, what the heck! (22:02:42) quaid: :) (22:02:55) elliss: G2: Draft Debian statement is here: http://wiki.debian.org/GFDLPositionStatement (22:03:01) quaid: OK, I'm done for the day -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stuart at elsn.org Tue Jan 31 22:41:50 2006 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 22:41:50 +0000 Subject: IRC Log FDSCo Meeting 31 January 2006 Message-ID: <1138747310.2843.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> (21:08:24) quaid: (21:09:48) quaid: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/FedoraDocsSchedule (21:10:28) quaid: anyone had any thoughts or writing about the OPL this week? (21:10:50) megacoder: And the choir said "amen". (21:11:01) stickster: Aye (21:11:12) ***megacoder means "agree with the done deal" (21:11:26) ***stickster nervously thinks that he was supposed to send something to list and failed (21:11:29) quaid: right (21:11:37) quaid: we discussed a gentle blog-like introduction (21:11:40) quaid: from a non (21:11:46) quaid: non at redhat.com poison (21:11:54) quaid: but that's not rew (21:11:56) quaid: required (21:12:01) quaid: <-- fat fingers (21:12:05) ***stickster remembers now.... D'OH! (21:12:06) megacoder: "poison"? (21:12:10) quaid: person (21:12:15) stickster: nyuk nyuk (21:12:17) quaid: morale++ (21:14:33) megacoder: I added the anti-GPL3 reference from linux. (21:14:33) ***quaid happy happy joy joy (21:14:45) stickster: Rrr? (21:16:03) quaid: sorry, I'm delivering a report in a very long IRC meeting at the same time (21:16:18) quaid: ok, I'm the $BIG_CHEESE so I get ot write upt he annonce (21:16:21) quaid: right (21:16:45) quaid: I'll do a draft on f-dsco-l, which previews it publically, before f-docs-l and .. f-devel-l? (21:16:54) quaid: seems like it matters to all developers, too (21:17:07) stickster: f-announce-l, maybe f-maintainers-l (21:17:13) mumumu_ [n=narinari at p22191-adsau16honb12-acca.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] entered the room. (21:17:22) quaid: does it matter to f-announce? (21:17:29) quaid: aren't all of f-maintainers on f-devel? (21:17:55) stickster: re: f-maintainers-l, good point... for f-announce-l, I would say a major licensing change is worth while (21:18:02) quaid: ok (21:19:41) elliss: If you drop the Licensing FAQ on to the Wiki you could link to it on the mail. (21:19:43) stickster: Sorry I dropped the ball on this one, can only plead "out of pocket" most of week (21:27:06) quaid: ok (21:29:16) quaid: I'm distracted a bit (21:29:31) quaid: stickster: can you take over the task roll through for me? (21:29:38) quaid: keep the confab going, so I'm not stalling us up (21:29:42) stickster: k (21:29:55) stickster: OPL: done with that topic? (21:30:55) stickster: OK, silence gives consent (21:31:04) stickster: DocsRawhide, let's skip since quaid is rather busy (21:31:19) stickster: Packaging... (21:31:32) stickster: Tommy, are things building for you now that you chased down local issues? (21:32:01) stickster: megacoder: Sorry, should have tagged you at the beginning of that last line (21:32:18) megacoder: Yeah, I had some trouble because emacs was leaving some '#foo#' files around that borked the RPM build. That should be OK now. (21:32:37) megacoder: Or maybe they were '.#foo'; doesn't matter. (21:32:40) stickster: WORKSFORME too fwiw (21:32:46) megacoder: Great (21:33:11) stickster: Discovered a yelp bug I am tryng to track down to send upstream... Glossary (i.e. Jargon Buster) is futzed due to mishandling (21:33:29) megacoder: Quaid posted that he would like the *-${LANG}.xml files broken into language-specific subdirectories. (21:33:37) mumumu left the room (quit: Connection timed out). (21:33:47) stickster: Yeah, I'm not sure how to handle that with the relnotes trans freeze (21:33:58) quaid: let's look at that for fc5, if it matters (21:34:06) quaid: we are at bust for the size of l10n files we have there (21:34:19) stickster: quaid: Agreed... too many cats to herd before gold (21:34:25) quaid: just not sure when Fedora Trans is going to i) move to cvs.fedora so that, ii) we can be part of their system. (21:34:42) megacoder: I have the Makefile.common changes needed ready to check in, but I'll need Sopwith's help to move the files around and not loose the history. (21:35:09) megacoder: This change will also require major packaging-fu surgery. (21:35:25) stickster: megacoder: I think that was the reason we were going to wait until FC5 got out and some docs with it (21:35:49) megacoder: Awrigh' by me (21:35:56) stickster: but if we gotta do it now for some reason, then I'll kick some tush (21:36:51) stickster: One issue with packaging: Making sure our spec file meets muster (21:37:05) stickster: ignacio: ping (21:38:13) stickster: ignacio: If you are available, I'd like you to look over two spec files, one a fairly complete as-is for our "common files" RPM, the other an XSL skeleton for our individual docs... I would like to get your comments before I go to FE with individual doc packages (21:39:02) Sopwith: megacoder: How can I help? :) (21:39:07) megacoder: While he's answering... I've come around to liking the per-${LANG} rpm-info-${LANG}.xml file idea (21:39:38) stickster: megacoder: OK, that means some pkg-fu surgery, we can deal with this without too much heartache, methinks (21:40:02) megacoder: Sopwith; the plan is to ultimately put each language document into its own subdir. I can create the necessary subdirs but I'll need you, Sopwith, to move the CVS files around when the time comes. (21:40:10) stickster: Anyone have a clue who I should tickle about getting a package group for "Documentation"? (i.e. "Development Tools," "Web Server," et al.) (21:40:40) megacoder: Tickle me; it won't get the group created, but I'll like it. Probably the Anaconda maintainer, I forget who. (21:40:51) stickster: Jeremy, I think (21:41:58) quaid: oh, yeah (21:42:01) quaid: I'm being stoopid (21:42:10) quaid: of course we need to solve this in our CVS, the translations won't move (21:42:17) stickster: I'm thinking the best way to get katzj attention is a BZ (21:42:28) quaid: i18n.r.c/magic-fu will just pull from our repo (21:42:39) quaid: stickster: bz++ (21:43:02) megacoder: Which is the chicken and which is the egg? (21:46:37) stickster: ok, moving along then (21:46:54) stickster: Anybody have a MoinMoin report? Is nman64 around? (21:47:14) quaid: I'm not finding it easy to switch to XIncludes in mid stream (21:47:21) quaid: that's why I'm focusing on fixing the Wiki (21:47:31) quaid: and abandonign the old XML and old ENTITY declaratiosn entirely (21:47:35) megacoder: Before we move on, I wanna know whether the CVS is driving the i18n linking or the other way round? (21:47:51) quaid: first, I think (21:48:02) quaid: they need to move CVSes, higher priority item with no time yet to do it (21:48:15) quaid: and once that it done, it is easy to link us in (21:48:29) quaid: to do it now would require, iirc, mirroring our CVS in and out (21:48:29) megacoder: OK, let me know when we can do the CVS reorg. (21:48:31) quaid: so, new code, etc. (21:48:42) quaid: anytime ... after test3 is out (21:48:45) quaid: stickster: sound ok? (21:49:06) megacoder: FWIW, I joined the i.r.c as a "translator", just so I could get some access. (21:49:55) stickster: quaid: ok by me... (21:50:30) ***stickster thinks that sort of covers trans process too, by the way (21:50:47) quaid: megacoder: cool (21:51:06) stickster: Are we going to make deadline for relnotes for t3? (21:51:20) stickster: (not meant snarkily, trying to figure out how to help) (21:51:51) quaid: trans deadline is past, so the first answer is, now (21:51:54) quaid: but how to help, yeah baby (21:52:02) quaid: got to Docs/Beats (21:52:09) quaid: and work your way up from the bottom (21:52:13) quaid: I'm working my way down (21:52:20) quaid: syncing content _From_ the XML to the Wiki (21:52:27) quaid: Wiki is now canonical (21:52:36) quaid: we are giving up, for now, on perfect XML, etc. (21:52:48) quaid: we are going to figure out how to stitch together whatever the Wiki gives us using XIncludes. (21:53:05) quaid: so, we are retiring the old XML in place of generated XML from the Wiki, for now (21:55:00) megacoder: So then we'll have XML documents and "release notes". (21:55:12) Sopwith: megacoder: The i18n migration is on the infrastructure TODO list, but right now it's blocked on Bernd. If you hear anything, please make sure the sysadmins know :) (21:55:57) quaid: Sopwith: you know ... (21:55:58) megacoder: right, wilco (21:56:18) quaid: Sopwith: bernd said to me that he can't really use help in the connecting us to him part, that it would take more time to explain than to do (21:56:19) quaid: but (21:56:29) quaid: Sopwith: perhaps you could offer to help him with CVS migration? (21:56:35) quaid: I mean, offer to do it somehow (21:56:51) SubNuke left the room ("Parting"). (21:57:06) Sopwith: quaid: It's not CVS itself that is the problem - it's the web apps that need migrating. (21:57:12) quaid: ah (21:57:16) stickster: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=179503 (21:58:51) G2: I was supposed to be here, but Ben is a pain in the arse. (21:58:54) G2: Sorry guys. (21:58:59) G2: Just sat back down. (21:59:12) stickster: G2: parenting is a kick in the tush, ain't it? np afaic (21:59:28) G2: oh yeah. (21:59:41) ***quaid has a five-year-old who has discovered full arm belly punches to show Dad she is unhappy (22:00:25) megacoder: Wait until they're older and bring home an AK-47 (22:00:46) megacoder: To show they're unhappy. (22:01:10) Sonar_Gal left the room (quit: "Leaving"). (22:01:21) stickster: OK, so I've bugged the anaconda maint team, q.v. above... once I get ignacio or someone to comment on the spec files we should be rarin' to go, I'll get packages entered in Extras, at least for yum guide, the canonical guides (Dev, Doc and Trans), and the translation QSG (22:02:10) ***G2 off. night (22:02:13) G2 left the room ("See you all tomorrow."). (22:02:30) megacoder: Whoo-whee! (22:02:35) Sonar_Gal [n=aglaser at ip70-174-58-25.hr.hr.cox.net] entered the room. (22:02:50) quaid: productive group, what! (22:02:57) stickster: wot-wot (22:05:05) stickster: quaid: You can remove mirror tutorial objective from P2 list on wiki, it's published and receiving bugs every once in a while... have one to fix currently, as a matter o' fact (22:08:52) stickster: Anybody still here? (22:09:01) ***quaid is (22:09:08) quaid: just updating the schedule (22:09:14) nman64: Not exactly "still", but I'm here. (22:10:05) stickster: Okey doke, I think that kind of wraps up the P1 stuff then (22:11:17) quaid: yeah, we can stop there, we have enough with that (22:13:46) stickster: k (22:17:03) stickster: *sigh* (22:19:15) megacoder: ? -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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