From rafalzaq at gmail.com Sat Sep 8 16:11:47 2007 From: rafalzaq at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Rafa=C5=82_Psota?=) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 18:11:47 +0200 Subject: glob2 license change Message-ID: <5610e0590709080911u4f4b7b82hcb301f5a4ff5d158@mail.gmail.com> >From version 0.9.1 glob2 has changed its license from GPLv2+ to GPLv3+. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Sep 11 15:22:05 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 20:52:05 +0530 Subject: Games spin? Message-ID: <46E6B29D.5010103@fedoraproject.org> Hi Is there still interest in creating a Fedora Games spin. I might be able to cook up a kickstart file easily and we can aim to have one along with the Fedora 8 release. Btw, is anyone working on packaging http://openquartz.sourceforge.net/? Rahul From limb at jcomserv.net Tue Sep 11 15:05:32 2007 From: limb at jcomserv.net (Jon Ciesla) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 10:05:32 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Games spin? In-Reply-To: <46E6B29D.5010103@fedoraproject.org> References: <46E6B29D.5010103@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <14925.65.192.24.164.1189523132.squirrel@mail.jcomserv.net> > Hi > > Is there still interest in creating a Fedora Games spin. I might be able > to cook up a kickstart file easily and we can aim to have one along with > the Fedora 8 release. That'd be great. We were toying with a liveCD: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Games/GamesLiveCD I;d imagine you could start there. > Btw, is anyone working on packaging http://openquartz.sourceforge.net/? Not currently, but it's on the SIG Wishlist. I'll put it on my todo list, unless someone else has started. > Rahul > > _______________________________________________ > Fedora-games-list mailing list > Fedora-games-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-games-list > -- novus ordo absurdum From j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl Tue Sep 11 17:14:16 2007 From: j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl (Hans de Goede) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 19:14:16 +0200 Subject: Games spin? In-Reply-To: <46E6B29D.5010103@fedoraproject.org> References: <46E6B29D.5010103@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <46E6CCE8.7030002@hhs.nl> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > Is there still interest in creating a Fedora Games spin. I might be able > to cook up a kickstart file easily and we can aim to have one along with > the Fedora 8 release. > Yes that would definitely be a good spin to have! We have been playing with the idea, but sofar none of us has found the time (or the bandwidth need for composing in a reasonable time in my case). Basicly one could take the live cd and add all packages in the games groups in comps, we already agreed that a dvd would be best / is almost unavoidable. Regards, Hans From chris.stone at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 18:58:29 2007 From: chris.stone at gmail.com (Christopher Stone) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 11:58:29 -0700 Subject: Games spin? In-Reply-To: <46E6CCE8.7030002@hhs.nl> References: <46E6B29D.5010103@fedoraproject.org> <46E6CCE8.7030002@hhs.nl> Message-ID: On 9/11/07, Hans de Goede wrote: > Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > Hi > > > > Is there still interest in creating a Fedora Games spin. I might be able > > to cook up a kickstart file easily and we can aim to have one along with > > the Fedora 8 release. > > > > Yes that would definitely be a good spin to have! > > We have been playing with the idea, but sofar none of us has found the time (or > the bandwidth need for composing in a reasonable time in my case). > > Basicly one could take the live cd and add all packages in the games groups in > comps, we already agreed that a dvd would be best / is almost unavoidable. Do we put both KDE and GNOME on the DVD? From limb at jcomserv.net Tue Sep 11 18:37:49 2007 From: limb at jcomserv.net (Jon Ciesla) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 13:37:49 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Games spin? In-Reply-To: References: <46E6B29D.5010103@fedoraproject.org> <46E6CCE8.7030002@hhs.nl> Message-ID: <9169.65.192.24.164.1189535869.squirrel@mail.jcomserv.net> > On 9/11/07, Hans de Goede wrote: >> Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> > Hi >> > >> > Is there still interest in creating a Fedora Games spin. I might be >> able >> > to cook up a kickstart file easily and we can aim to have one along >> with >> > the Fedora 8 release. >> > >> >> Yes that would definitely be a good spin to have! >> >> We have been playing with the idea, but sofar none of us has found the >> time (or >> the bandwidth need for composing in a reasonable time in my case). >> >> Basicly one could take the live cd and add all packages in the games >> groups in >> comps, we already agreed that a dvd would be best / is almost >> unavoidable. > > Do we put both KDE and GNOME on the DVD? If we have room, but I'd cut in in favor of more games if we need the space. Or, hell, have the libs for both and install xfce. :)P > _______________________________________________ > Fedora-games-list mailing list > Fedora-games-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-games-list > -- novus ordo absurdum From kanarip at kanarip.com Tue Sep 11 19:05:48 2007 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 21:05:48 +0200 Subject: Games spin? In-Reply-To: References: <46E6B29D.5010103@fedoraproject.org> <46E6CCE8.7030002@hhs.nl> Message-ID: <46E6E70C.6050702@kanarip.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Christopher Stone wrote: > Do we put both KDE and GNOME on the DVD? > I wouldn't do that as it rapidly consumes a lot of space you'll need for the games. - -- Kind regards, Jeroen van Meeuwen - -kanarip - -- http://www.kanarip.com/ RHCE, LPIC-2, MCP, CCNA C6B0 7FB4 43E6 CDDA D258 F70B 28DE 9FDA 9342 BF08 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFG5ucMKN6f2pNCvwgRAmlXAJwLauPZ/uUiCoavbMjmz2PWmzY9YQCeInWu 1vVxjlQYEQJsKauf3Sllbpc= =VsSI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From chris.stone at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 19:09:06 2007 From: chris.stone at gmail.com (Christopher Stone) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 12:09:06 -0700 Subject: Games spin? In-Reply-To: <46E6E70C.6050702@kanarip.com> References: <46E6B29D.5010103@fedoraproject.org> <46E6CCE8.7030002@hhs.nl> <46E6E70C.6050702@kanarip.com> Message-ID: On 9/11/07, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Christopher Stone wrote: > > Do we put both KDE and GNOME on the DVD? > > > > I wouldn't do that as it rapidly consumes a lot of space you'll need for > the games. So whats the plan then? We put both KDE and GNOME on it now if it fits. Then we reduce to just GNOME and then to just XFCE? Does anyone have space requirements for minimal KDE, GNOME, XFCE installs? From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Sep 11 19:06:37 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 00:36:37 +0530 Subject: Games spin? In-Reply-To: References: <46E6B29D.5010103@fedoraproject.org> <46E6CCE8.7030002@hhs.nl> Message-ID: <46E6E73D.6050201@fedoraproject.org> Christopher Stone wrote: > Do we put both KDE and GNOME on the DVD? We can but I will go with just GNOME and put in more games. There is no point in having two desktop environments in a DVD showcasing games. Rahul From chris.stone at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 19:14:17 2007 From: chris.stone at gmail.com (Christopher Stone) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 12:14:17 -0700 Subject: Games spin? In-Reply-To: <46E6E73D.6050201@fedoraproject.org> References: <46E6B29D.5010103@fedoraproject.org> <46E6CCE8.7030002@hhs.nl> <46E6E73D.6050201@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: On 9/11/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Christopher Stone wrote: > > > Do we put both KDE and GNOME on the DVD? > > We can but I will go with just GNOME and put in more games. There is no > point in having two desktop environments in a DVD showcasing games. Wait, so you are saying we don't have enough room already to fit all games and both desktops? If we remove GNOME does that also allow more games? And I'm still not convinced GNOME is actually smaller in size than KDE. Why not use KDE instead of GNOME if KDE allows more games? Or indeed, XFCE... From wart at kobold.org Tue Sep 11 19:14:16 2007 From: wart at kobold.org (Michael Thomas) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 12:14:16 -0700 Subject: Games spin? In-Reply-To: <46E6E73D.6050201@fedoraproject.org> References: <46E6B29D.5010103@fedoraproject.org> <46E6CCE8.7030002@hhs.nl> <46E6E73D.6050201@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <46E6E908.3070407@kobold.org> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Christopher Stone wrote: > >> Do we put both KDE and GNOME on the DVD? > > We can but I will go with just GNOME and put in more games. There is no > point in having two desktop environments in a DVD showcasing games. The problem is that if we add the 'kdegames' package then it will pull in almost all of kde anyway. --Wart From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Sep 11 19:17:40 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 00:47:40 +0530 Subject: Games spin? In-Reply-To: References: <46E6B29D.5010103@fedoraproject.org> <46E6CCE8.7030002@hhs.nl> <46E6E73D.6050201@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <46E6E9D4.5040107@fedoraproject.org> Christopher Stone wrote: > On 9/11/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> Christopher Stone wrote: >> >>> Do we put both KDE and GNOME on the DVD? >> We can but I will go with just GNOME and put in more games. There is no >> point in having two desktop environments in a DVD showcasing games. > > Wait, so you are saying we don't have enough room already to fit all > games and both desktops? If we remove GNOME does that also allow more > games? We won't have enough room to fit all games anyway. Only selected games and we will have more of those if we include less unrelated packages. I am not very interested in a debate of which desktop environment as such. I will go with GNOME since that is the spec I am deriving from unless there is strong objection to that. Rahul From limb at jcomserv.net Tue Sep 11 18:56:55 2007 From: limb at jcomserv.net (Jon Ciesla) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 13:56:55 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Games spin? In-Reply-To: <46E6E9D4.5040107@fedoraproject.org> References: <46E6B29D.5010103@fedoraproject.org> <46E6CCE8.7030002@hhs.nl> <46E6E73D.6050201@fedoraproject.org> <46E6E9D4.5040107@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <25978.65.192.24.164.1189537015.squirrel@mail.jcomserv.net> > Christopher Stone wrote: >> On 9/11/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >>> Christopher Stone wrote: >>> >>>> Do we put both KDE and GNOME on the DVD? >>> We can but I will go with just GNOME and put in more games. There is no >>> point in having two desktop environments in a DVD showcasing games. >> >> Wait, so you are saying we don't have enough room already to fit all >> games and both desktops? If we remove GNOME does that also allow more >> games? > > We won't have enough room to fit all games anyway. Only selected games > and we will have more of those if we include less unrelated packages. I > am not very interested in a debate of which desktop environment as such. > I will go with GNOME since that is the spec I am deriving from unless > there is strong objection to that. +1 Or, we could always use BlackBox. (ducks) > Rahul > > _______________________________________________ > Fedora-games-list mailing list > Fedora-games-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-games-list > -- novus ordo absurdum From chris.stone at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 19:30:02 2007 From: chris.stone at gmail.com (Christopher Stone) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 12:30:02 -0700 Subject: Games spin? In-Reply-To: <46E6E9D4.5040107@fedoraproject.org> References: <46E6B29D.5010103@fedoraproject.org> <46E6CCE8.7030002@hhs.nl> <46E6E73D.6050201@fedoraproject.org> <46E6E9D4.5040107@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: On 9/11/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Christopher Stone wrote: > > On 9/11/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > >> Christopher Stone wrote: > >> > >>> Do we put both KDE and GNOME on the DVD? > >> We can but I will go with just GNOME and put in more games. There is no > >> point in having two desktop environments in a DVD showcasing games. > > > > Wait, so you are saying we don't have enough room already to fit all > > games and both desktops? If we remove GNOME does that also allow more > > games? > > We won't have enough room to fit all games anyway. Only selected games > and we will have more of those if we include less unrelated packages. I > am not very interested in a debate of which desktop environment as such. > I will go with GNOME since that is the spec I am deriving from unless > there is strong objection to that. Wow, which games take up the most space? I had no idea we had space problems already. I thought the space problems were only for CDs. Is there any kind of breakdown on space requirements for each game? From kanarip at kanarip.com Tue Sep 11 19:31:14 2007 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 21:31:14 +0200 Subject: Games spin? In-Reply-To: References: <46E6B29D.5010103@fedoraproject.org> <46E6CCE8.7030002@hhs.nl> <46E6E70C.6050702@kanarip.com> Message-ID: <46E6ED02.9000003@kanarip.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Christopher Stone wrote: > On 9/11/07, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >> Hash: SHA1 >> >> Christopher Stone wrote: >>> Do we put both KDE and GNOME on the DVD? >>> >> I wouldn't do that as it rapidly consumes a lot of space you'll need for >> the games. > > So whats the plan then? We put both KDE and GNOME on it now if it > fits. Then we reduce to just GNOME and then to just XFCE? Does > anyone have space requirements for minimal KDE, GNOME, XFCE installs? > Maybe some of us could just use one or the other tool (maybe pull them from their upstream repos and run from source) and start playing with a kickstart file that gives you the appropriate games, desktops, other packages and settings. - -- Kind regards, Jeroen van Meeuwen - -kanarip - -- http://www.kanarip.com/ RHCE, LPIC-2, MCP, CCNA C6B0 7FB4 43E6 CDDA D258 F70B 28DE 9FDA 9342 BF08 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFG5u0AKN6f2pNCvwgRAkaRAJ4iZ3n+PGOTkpUcLf98NYbK0RUtVwCcDGHm FqFIfvpHM3XGYiR8/ltwRgY= =0mfE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Sep 11 19:40:34 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 01:10:34 +0530 Subject: Games spin? In-Reply-To: References: <46E6B29D.5010103@fedoraproject.org> <46E6CCE8.7030002@hhs.nl> <46E6E73D.6050201@fedoraproject.org> <46E6E9D4.5040107@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <46E6EF32.4040609@fedoraproject.org> Christopher Stone wrote: > Wow, which games take up the most space? I had no idea we had space > problems already. I thought the space problems were only for CDs. Is > there any kind of breakdown on space requirements for each game? I need to sync my local copy of rawhide for a complete breakdown but usually the data package for many 3D games are considerably large. nexuiz-data is 261MB and openarena-data is 260MB for example. Rahul From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Wed Sep 12 05:39:43 2007 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 08:39:43 +0300 Subject: Games spin? In-Reply-To: <46E6E908.3070407@kobold.org> References: <46E6B29D.5010103@fedoraproject.org> <46E6CCE8.7030002@hhs.nl> <46E6E73D.6050201@fedoraproject.org> <46E6E908.3070407@kobold.org> Message-ID: <46E77B9F.3070009@nicubunu.ro> Michael Thomas wrote: > Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> We can but I will go with just GNOME and put in more games. There is no >> point in having two desktop environments in a DVD showcasing games. > > The problem is that if we add the 'kdegames' package then it will pull > in almost all of kde anyway. But does make any sense to have a version of MineSweeper or Solitaire from each GNOME *and* KDE? (and drag a lot of libraries only for such redundant games) -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Sep 14 14:30:12 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 20:00:12 +0530 Subject: Fedora games spin: feedback Message-ID: <46EA9AF4.4060004@fedoraproject.org> Hi I talked to Jesse Keating on IRC today and we might be potentially be able to release a games spin officially as part of Fedora 8! I have copied the kickstart file into this page. Try it out. If there are changes in the packages required, edit the kickstart section or let me know. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Games/GamesLiveCD Rahul From j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl Fri Sep 14 14:22:51 2007 From: j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl (Hans de Goede) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 16:22:51 +0200 Subject: Fedora games spin: feedback In-Reply-To: <46EA9AF4.4060004@fedoraproject.org> References: <46EA9AF4.4060004@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <46EA993B.600@hhs.nl> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > I talked to Jesse Keating on IRC today and we might be potentially be > able to release a games spin officially as part of Fedora 8! > > I have copied the kickstart file into this page. Try it out. If there > are changes in the packages required, edit the kickstart section or let > me know. > Cool, thanks! Is there a reason why flightgear is commented out? It is available now. Regards, Hans From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Sep 14 14:38:30 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 20:08:30 +0530 Subject: Fedora games spin: feedback In-Reply-To: <46EA993B.600@hhs.nl> References: <46EA9AF4.4060004@fedoraproject.org> <46EA993B.600@hhs.nl> Message-ID: <46EA9CE6.4080006@fedoraproject.org> Hans de Goede wrote: > Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> Hi >> >> I talked to Jesse Keating on IRC today and we might be potentially be >> able to release a games spin officially as part of Fedora 8! >> >> I have copied the kickstart file into this page. Try it out. If there >> are changes in the packages required, edit the kickstart section or >> let me know. >> > > Cool, thanks! > > Is there a reason why flightgear is commented out? It is available now. Refresh. I have removed the comment already. My local repository was a bit old and didn't have this package. I removed it for my local build to workaround that but you can try it out with flightgear included. Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Sep 14 15:07:57 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 20:37:57 +0530 Subject: games-menu package Message-ID: <46EAA3CD.50101@fedoraproject.org> Hi Any reasons why this is a separate package instead of being part of the standard menu? I guess we need to include this in the spin Rahul From j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl Fri Sep 14 15:09:54 2007 From: j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl (Hans de Goede) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 17:09:54 +0200 Subject: games-menu package In-Reply-To: <46EAA3CD.50101@fedoraproject.org> References: <46EAA3CD.50101@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <46EAA442.4020904@hhs.nl> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > Any reasons why this is a separate package instead of being part of the > standard menu? I guess we need to include this in the spin > For users without lots of games it might be overkill, but the main reason its not in the main menu is that getting changes like this integreated into the main menu is not a fight I want to fight, I'm a technician, not a politician. Others should feel free to press for games-menus inclusion into the main menu though. Regards, Hans p.s. Rahul we have had our differences in the past, but I think that the work you are doing on the Games spin is really cool, Thanks! From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Sep 14 15:23:51 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 20:53:51 +0530 Subject: games-menu package In-Reply-To: <46EAA442.4020904@hhs.nl> References: <46EAA3CD.50101@fedoraproject.org> <46EAA442.4020904@hhs.nl> Message-ID: <46EAA787.5010601@fedoraproject.org> Hans de Goede wrote: > For users without lots of games it might be overkill, but the main > reason its not in the main menu is that getting changes like this > integreated into the main menu is not a fight I want to fight, I'm a > technician, not a politician. > > Others should feel free to press for games-menus inclusion into the main > menu though. Have you tried filing a RFE? > p.s. > > Rahul we have had our differences in the past, but I think that the work > you are doing on the Games spin is really cool, Thanks! I argue with a lot of people over specific subjects. Not with them as such. You are welcome. It is just a kickstart file anyway. Rahul From mr.ecik at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 15:58:24 2007 From: mr.ecik at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-2?Q?Micha=B3_Bentkowski?=) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 17:58:24 +0200 Subject: Fedora games spin: feedback In-Reply-To: <46EA9AF4.4060004@fedoraproject.org> References: <46EA9AF4.4060004@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <668bb39a0709140858t1daf8a2bm4879255a745c5807@mail.gmail.com> There are some packages missing like bygfoot, glob2 or warzone2100 that would be nice to have included :) 2007/9/14, Rahul Sundaram : > Hi > > I talked to Jesse Keating on IRC today and we might be potentially be > able to release a games spin officially as part of Fedora 8! > > I have copied the kickstart file into this page. Try it out. If there > are changes in the packages required, edit the kickstart section or let > me know. > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Games/GamesLiveCD > > Rahul > > _______________________________________________ > Fedora-games-list mailing list > Fedora-games-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-games-list > -- Micha? Bentkowski mr.ecik at gmail.com From j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl Fri Sep 14 17:08:13 2007 From: j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl (Hans de Goede) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 19:08:13 +0200 Subject: Fedora games spin: feedback In-Reply-To: <668bb39a0709140858t1daf8a2bm4879255a745c5807@mail.gmail.com> References: <46EA9AF4.4060004@fedoraproject.org> <668bb39a0709140858t1daf8a2bm4879255a745c5807@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46EABFFD.3060501@hhs.nl> Micha? Bentkowski wrote: > There are some packages missing like bygfoot, glob2 or warzone2100 > that would be nice to have included :) > Its a wiki feel free to add any games you think should be on there. If we go over the size of a DVD we will start weeding out stuff. Regards, Hans From limb at jcomserv.net Fri Sep 14 18:13:31 2007 From: limb at jcomserv.net (Jon Ciesla) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 13:13:31 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Fwd: [Fedora Project Wiki] Update of "SIGs/Games" by DavidsonPaulo] Message-ID: <46058.63.85.68.164.1189793611.squirrel@mail.jcomserv.net> That's hilarious, I just started work packaging this, for probable submission next week. :) ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: [Fedora Project Wiki] Update of "SIGs/Games" by DavidsonPaulo From: fedorawiki-noreply at fedoraproject.org Date: Fri, September 14, 2007 1:33 pm To: fedorawiki-noreply at fedoraproject.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Wiki user, You have subscribed to a wiki page or wiki category on "Fedora Project Wiki" for change notification. The following page has been changed by DavidsonPaulo: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Games?action=diff&rev2=411&rev1=410 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ * Race - 3D top view racing game - http://race.sourceforge.net - warning upstream is dead * ClanShip - battleship game - web: http://web.archive.org/web/20050305231257/www.swoogan.com/clanship.html - source: http://www.sourcefiles.org/Games/Strategy/Warfare/Battleships/ClanShip-1.0.5f.zip - warning upstream is dead * pokerth - http://www.pokerth.net/index.php + * SolarWolf - free and open source action/arcade game written in Python - http://www.pygame.org/shredwheat/solarwolf/ = Game List References = -- novus ordo absurdum From wart at kobold.org Fri Sep 14 22:10:55 2007 From: wart at kobold.org (Michael Thomas) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 15:10:55 -0700 Subject: Fedora games spin: feedback In-Reply-To: <46EABFFD.3060501@hhs.nl> References: <46EA9AF4.4060004@fedoraproject.org> <668bb39a0709140858t1daf8a2bm4879255a745c5807@mail.gmail.com> <46EABFFD.3060501@hhs.nl> Message-ID: <46EB06EF.3090904@kobold.org> Hans de Goede wrote: > Micha? Bentkowski wrote: >> There are some packages missing like bygfoot, glob2 or warzone2100 >> that would be nice to have included :) >> > > Its a wiki feel free to add any games you think should be on there. If > we go over the size of a DVD we will start weeding out stuff. I added manaworld and enigma. manaworld depends on compat-guichan05, but I see that the kickstart explicitly omits compat packages. Will '-compat*' prevent compat packages that are dependencies of other explicitly listed packages from getting installed? --Wart From wart at kobold.org Sat Sep 15 00:00:35 2007 From: wart at kobold.org (Michael Thomas) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 17:00:35 -0700 Subject: Fedora games spin: feedback In-Reply-To: <46EA9AF4.4060004@fedoraproject.org> References: <46EA9AF4.4060004@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <46EB20A3.9030203@kobold.org> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > I talked to Jesse Keating on IRC today and we might be potentially be > able to release a games spin officially as part of Fedora 8! > > I have copied the kickstart file into this page. Try it out. If there > are changes in the packages required, edit the kickstart section or let > me know. Since this LiveDVD is also going to be installable, do we want to include game servers, such as crossfire, xpilot-ng-server, and cyphesis? --Wart From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sat Sep 15 01:39:57 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 07:09:57 +0530 Subject: Fedora games spin: feedback In-Reply-To: <46EB06EF.3090904@kobold.org> References: <46EA9AF4.4060004@fedoraproject.org> <668bb39a0709140858t1daf8a2bm4879255a745c5807@mail.gmail.com> <46EABFFD.3060501@hhs.nl> <46EB06EF.3090904@kobold.org> Message-ID: <46EB37ED.1090900@fedoraproject.org> Michael Thomas wrote: > Hans de Goede wrote: >> Micha? Bentkowski wrote: >>> There are some packages missing like bygfoot, glob2 or warzone2100 >>> that would be nice to have included :) >>> >> Its a wiki feel free to add any games you think should be on there. If >> we go over the size of a DVD we will start weeding out stuff. > > I added manaworld and enigma. manaworld depends on compat-guichan05, > but I see that the kickstart explicitly omits compat packages. Will > '-compat*' prevent compat packages that are dependencies of other > explicitly listed packages from getting installed? Nope. Dependencies will always be installed. Rahul From j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl Sat Sep 15 05:36:04 2007 From: j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl (Hans de Goede) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 07:36:04 +0200 Subject: Fedora games spin: feedback In-Reply-To: <46EB20A3.9030203@kobold.org> References: <46EA9AF4.4060004@fedoraproject.org> <46EB20A3.9030203@kobold.org> Message-ID: <46EB6F44.50601@hhs.nl> Michael Thomas wrote: > Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> Hi >> >> I talked to Jesse Keating on IRC today and we might be potentially be >> able to release a games spin officially as part of Fedora 8! >> >> I have copied the kickstart file into this page. Try it out. If there >> are changes in the packages required, edit the kickstart section or let >> me know. > > Since this LiveDVD is also going to be installable, do we want to > include game servers, such as crossfire, xpilot-ng-server, and cyphesis? > No I don't think we want that, we don't want to make it a larger download then necessary. I also think we should try to make sure we only include real good games, some games are fun but lack a certain spit and polish. atomorun for example is a game which I would not want to include. Regards, Hans From wayward4now at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 07:20:10 2007 From: wayward4now at gmail.com (Ric Moore) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 03:20:10 -0400 Subject: Fedora games spin: feedback In-Reply-To: <46EB6F44.50601@hhs.nl> References: <46EA9AF4.4060004@fedoraproject.org> <46EB20A3.9030203@kobold.org> <46EB6F44.50601@hhs.nl> Message-ID: <1189840810.6656.12.camel@iam.wayward4now.net> On Sat, 2007-09-15 at 07:36 +0200, Hans de Goede wrote: > Michael Thomas wrote: > > Rahul Sundaram wrote: > >> Hi > >> > >> I talked to Jesse Keating on IRC today and we might be potentially be > >> able to release a games spin officially as part of Fedora 8! > >> > >> I have copied the kickstart file into this page. Try it out. If there > >> are changes in the packages required, edit the kickstart section or let > >> me know. > > > > Since this LiveDVD is also going to be installable, do we want to > > include game servers, such as crossfire, xpilot-ng-server, and cyphesis? > > > > No I don't think we want that, we don't want to make it a larger download then > necessary. I also think we should try to make sure we only include real good > games, some games are fun but lack a certain spit and polish. atomorun for > example is a game which I would not want to include. I vote for warzone2100. I'm addicted to it. I did have some problems with the rpm, so I grabbed the tar file and built it. That seemed to work, so there must be some minor glitch in the rpm file. sauerbraten is also a high quality game to consider. It's a quake like shooter. Ric -- ================================================ My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say: "There are two Great Sins in the world... ..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity. Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad. Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/ http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar http://www.wayward4now.net <---down4now too ================================================ From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sat Sep 15 07:32:09 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 13:02:09 +0530 Subject: Fedora games spin: feedback In-Reply-To: <1189840810.6656.12.camel@iam.wayward4now.net> References: <46EA9AF4.4060004@fedoraproject.org> <46EB20A3.9030203@kobold.org> <46EB6F44.50601@hhs.nl> <1189840810.6656.12.camel@iam.wayward4now.net> Message-ID: <46EB8A79.6010902@fedoraproject.org> Ric Moore wrote: > > I vote for warzone2100. I'm addicted to it. I did have some problems > with the rpm, so I grabbed the tar file and built it. That seemed to > work, so there must be some minor glitch in the rpm file. sauerbraten is > also a high quality game to consider. It's a quake like shooter. Ric Sauerbraten game content has a commercial use restriction that prevents it from being included in Fedora. It has been explicitly listed in the "will not package" list though third party repos can and probably will package this. Maybe we can package a subset and use the autodownloader to pull in more content optionally. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Games I saw claims in the SMC website that they have cleaned up their content in recent versions. Game similarity by itself shouldn't prevent a game from being included. Worth reconsidering IMO. Rahul From j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl Sat Sep 15 07:41:17 2007 From: j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl (Hans de Goede) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 09:41:17 +0200 Subject: Fedora games spin: feedback In-Reply-To: <46EB8A79.6010902@fedoraproject.org> References: <46EA9AF4.4060004@fedoraproject.org> <46EB20A3.9030203@kobold.org> <46EB6F44.50601@hhs.nl> <1189840810.6656.12.camel@iam.wayward4now.net> <46EB8A79.6010902@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <46EB8C9D.4090105@hhs.nl> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Ric Moore wrote: > >> >> I vote for warzone2100. I'm addicted to it. I did have some problems >> with the rpm, so I grabbed the tar file and built it. That seemed to >> work, so there must be some minor glitch in the rpm file. sauerbraten is >> also a high quality game to consider. It's a quake like shooter. Ric > > Sauerbraten game content has a commercial use restriction that prevents > it from being included in Fedora. It has been explicitly listed in the > "will not package" list though third party repos can and probably will > package this. Maybe we can package a subset and use the autodownloader > to pull in more content optionally. > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Games > > I saw claims in the SMC website that they have cleaned up their content > in recent versions. Game similarity by itself shouldn't prevent a game > from being included. Similarity shouldn't but SMC has all the original artwork redrawn, it is not new artwork, remember those semi transparent papers you used in your early school days, which you would lay over a drawing and then copy the drawing like that? SMC is very much like that. I just took a look and they have finally replaced the main character by something original. but the enemies and the level blocks still look like straight copies (they are not they are redrawn, but is that enough to claim its an original work?) We could ask Spot to be sure. Regards, Hans From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sat Sep 15 08:24:25 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 13:54:25 +0530 Subject: Fedora games spin: feedback In-Reply-To: <46EB8C9D.4090105@hhs.nl> References: <46EA9AF4.4060004@fedoraproject.org> <46EB20A3.9030203@kobold.org> <46EB6F44.50601@hhs.nl> <1189840810.6656.12.camel@iam.wayward4now.net> <46EB8A79.6010902@fedoraproject.org> <46EB8C9D.4090105@hhs.nl> Message-ID: <46EB96B9.2040202@fedoraproject.org> Hans de Goede wrote: > Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> Ric Moore wrote: >> >>> >>> I vote for warzone2100. I'm addicted to it. I did have some problems >>> with the rpm, so I grabbed the tar file and built it. That seemed to >>> work, so there must be some minor glitch in the rpm file. sauerbraten is >>> also a high quality game to consider. It's a quake like shooter. Ric >> >> Sauerbraten game content has a commercial use restriction that >> prevents it from being included in Fedora. It has been explicitly >> listed in the "will not package" list though third party repos can and >> probably will package this. Maybe we can package a subset and use the >> autodownloader to pull in more content optionally. >> >> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Games >> >> I saw claims in the SMC website that they have cleaned up their >> content in recent versions. Game similarity by itself shouldn't >> prevent a game from being included. > > Similarity shouldn't but SMC has all the original artwork redrawn, it is > not new artwork, remember those semi transparent papers you used in your > early school days, which you would lay over a drawing and then copy the > drawing like that? SMC is very much like that. > > I just took a look and they have finally replaced the main character by > something original. but the enemies and the level blocks still look like > straight copies (they are not they are redrawn, but is that enough to > claim its an original work?) > > We could ask Spot to be sure. Spot, can you look into this? Rahul From sanjith.warrier at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 16:35:41 2007 From: sanjith.warrier at gmail.com (R Sanjith) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 22:05:41 +0530 Subject: Fedora games spin: feedback In-Reply-To: <46EB96B9.2040202@fedoraproject.org> References: <46EA9AF4.4060004@fedoraproject.org> <46EB20A3.9030203@kobold.org> <46EB6F44.50601@hhs.nl> <1189840810.6656.12.camel@iam.wayward4now.net> <46EB8A79.6010902@fedoraproject.org> <46EB8C9D.4090105@hhs.nl> <46EB96B9.2040202@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: Hey Folks, The Super Mario Chronicles or rather Secret Mario Chronicles (SMC) is a good game. But there still is quite some work to be done before actually packaging it into a GamesLiveCD. The levels are incomplete in some places. The saved games in the list have levels that are not there in the actual game (which keeps you wondering which world they come from....) And ofcourse the lacking originality very rightly put up by Hans. Regards Sanjith On 9/15/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > Hans de Goede wrote: > > Rahul Sundaram wrote: > >> Ric Moore wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> I vote for warzone2100. I'm addicted to it. I did have some problems > >>> with the rpm, so I grabbed the tar file and built it. That seemed to > >>> work, so there must be some minor glitch in the rpm file. sauerbraten > is > >>> also a high quality game to consider. It's a quake like shooter. Ric > >> > >> Sauerbraten game content has a commercial use restriction that > >> prevents it from being included in Fedora. It has been explicitly > >> listed in the "will not package" list though third party repos can and > >> probably will package this. Maybe we can package a subset and use the > >> autodownloader to pull in more content optionally. > >> > >> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Games > >> > >> I saw claims in the SMC website that they have cleaned up their > >> content in recent versions. Game similarity by itself shouldn't > >> prevent a game from being included. > > > > Similarity shouldn't but SMC has all the original artwork redrawn, it is > > not new artwork, remember those semi transparent papers you used in your > > early school days, which you would lay over a drawing and then copy the > > drawing like that? SMC is very much like that. > > > > I just took a look and they have finally replaced the main character by > > something original. but the enemies and the level blocks still look like > > straight copies (they are not they are redrawn, but is that enough to > > claim its an original work?) > > > > We could ask Spot to be sure. > > Spot, can you look into this? > > Rahul > > _______________________________________________ > Fedora-games-list mailing list > Fedora-games-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-games-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wayward4now at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 22:07:33 2007 From: wayward4now at gmail.com (Ric Moore) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 18:07:33 -0400 Subject: Fedora games spin: feedback In-Reply-To: <46EB8A79.6010902@fedoraproject.org> References: <46EA9AF4.4060004@fedoraproject.org> <46EB20A3.9030203@kobold.org> <46EB6F44.50601@hhs.nl> <1189840810.6656.12.camel@iam.wayward4now.net> <46EB8A79.6010902@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1189894053.11262.1.camel@iam.wayward4now.net> On Sat, 2007-09-15 at 13:02 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Ric Moore wrote: > > > > > I vote for warzone2100. I'm addicted to it. I did have some problems > > with the rpm, so I grabbed the tar file and built it. That seemed to > > work, so there must be some minor glitch in the rpm file. sauerbraten is > > also a high quality game to consider. It's a quake like shooter. Ric > > Sauerbraten game content has a commercial use restriction that prevents > it from being included in Fedora. It has been explicitly listed in the > "will not package" list though third party repos can and probably will > package this. Maybe we can package a subset and use the autodownloader > to pull in more content optionally. I thought that there had been a music restriction, and it has been replaced. Or was that warzone? I'll check. Ric -- ================================================ My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say: "There are two Great Sins in the world... ..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity. Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad. Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/ http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar http://www.wayward4now.net <---down4now too ================================================ From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Sep 18 08:55:23 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 14:25:23 +0530 Subject: Fedora games spin: feedback In-Reply-To: <46EA9AF4.4060004@fedoraproject.org> References: <46EA9AF4.4060004@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <46EF927B.4080404@fedoraproject.org> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > I talked to Jesse Keating on IRC today and we might be potentially be > able to release a games spin officially as part of Fedora 8! > > I have copied the kickstart file into this page. Try it out. If there > are changes in the packages required, edit the kickstart section or let > me know. > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Games/GamesLiveCD Did anyone try creating a DVD image from this kickstart file locally? How did it go? I am hoping to get a games spin out along with test 3 for early feedback. Rahul From j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl Tue Sep 18 08:57:09 2007 From: j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl (Hans de Goede) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 10:57:09 +0200 Subject: Fedora games spin: feedback In-Reply-To: <46EF927B.4080404@fedoraproject.org> References: <46EA9AF4.4060004@fedoraproject.org> <46EF927B.4080404@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <46EF92E5.8050909@hhs.nl> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> Hi >> >> I talked to Jesse Keating on IRC today and we might be potentially be >> able to release a games spin officially as part of Fedora 8! >> >> I have copied the kickstart file into this page. Try it out. If there >> are changes in the packages required, edit the kickstart section or >> let me know. >> >> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Games/GamesLiveCD > > Did anyone try creating a DVD image from this kickstart file locally? > How did it go? I am hoping to get a games spin out along with test 3 for > early feedback. > I haven't tried yet, but I will soon, its on my todo list. Regards, Hans From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Sep 20 18:33:16 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 00:03:16 +0530 Subject: Notes on games spin Message-ID: <46F2BCEC.3060102@fedoraproject.org> Hi Are we still planning on doing a CD spin or just a DVD spin? IMO, a CD spin doesn't make much sense considering the size of the games but if anyone feels strongly that it would be useful, I could create a kickstart file for that. In a previous discussion in #fedora-games, someone suggested that a games spin might disappoint folks since we don't provide proprietary drivers. One of the ideas that I came up to tackle this is a driver buddy. It won't install any drivers nor will it contain pointers but act more like a nudge for users to get cards that has open 3D drivers. So if you have a Nvidia card for example, you will get a message explaining the non-availability of open drives and link to cards that has one. Fedora bookmarks has been separated from the browser in the last release. Do we want to have games specific bookmarks by default? Someone would have to create a package if this is desirable. Do we want a special theme for the games spin? We could request the art team to be creative and come up with a distinctive background, look and feel. Finally, is there any major good games that are possible to package or waiting on review that we need to have before we release this spin? Rahul From j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl Thu Sep 20 19:42:52 2007 From: j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl (Hans de Goede) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 21:42:52 +0200 Subject: Notes on games spin In-Reply-To: <46F2BCEC.3060102@fedoraproject.org> References: <46F2BCEC.3060102@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <46F2CD3C.5070504@hhs.nl> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > > Are we still planning on doing a CD spin or just a DVD spin? IMO, a CD > spin doesn't make much sense considering the size of the games but if > anyone feels strongly that it would be useful, I could create a > kickstart file for that. > Nah lets focus on the dvd, that will be enough work to get finished before launch > In a previous discussion in #fedora-games, someone suggested that a > games spin might disappoint folks since we don't provide proprietary > drivers. One of the ideas that I came up to tackle this is a driver > buddy. It won't install any drivers nor will it contain pointers but act > more like a nudge for users to get cards that has open 3D drivers. So if > you have a Nvidia card for example, you will get a message explaining > the non-availability of open drives and link to cards that has one. > I've been thinking about this, and I'm planning in writing a small bash script which uses zenity which can be used as wrapper around 3d games, this script will then first check for dri, and if that isn't available pop up a note (using zenity) saying that 3D hardware accel is needed (with explanation about no open source drivers, etc.) and then exit. > Fedora bookmarks has been separated from the browser in the last > release. Do we want to have games specific bookmarks by default? Someone > would have to create a package if this is desirable. > Maybe for Fedora 9, for now I would like to juist do the 3d wrapper, if there are others who want to do this thats ok. > Do we want a special theme for the games spin? We could request the art > team to be creative and come up with a distinctive background, look and > feel. > Again maybe Fedora 9. > Finally, is there any major good games that are possible to package or > waiting on review that we need to have before we release this spin? > I would say that we would want to have the second live client, that would need someone to push the submitter of it, he is working on it but mostely doing upstream work. Alternatively we could suggest comaintaining to him and then one of us could get the packages through review, while he concentrates on improving it upstream. Regards, Hans From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Sep 20 19:54:39 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 01:24:39 +0530 Subject: Notes on games spin In-Reply-To: <46F2CD3C.5070504@hhs.nl> References: <46F2BCEC.3060102@fedoraproject.org> <46F2CD3C.5070504@hhs.nl> Message-ID: <46F2CFFF.8010100@fedoraproject.org> Hans de Goede wrote: > I've been thinking about this, and I'm planning in writing a small bash > script which uses zenity which can be used as wrapper around 3d games, > this script will then first check for dri, and if that isn't available > pop up a note (using zenity) saying that 3D hardware accel is needed > (with explanation about no open source drivers, etc.) and then exit. Sounds good for the short-term alteast. I don't know if we need a "proper" app that uses libnotify instead. Notifications on the system tray are much better than dialog boxes IMO. > I would say that we would want to have the second live client, that > would need someone to push the submitter of it, he is working on it but > mostely doing upstream work. Alternatively we could suggest > comaintaining to him and then one of us could get the packages through > review, while he concentrates on improving it upstream. Ok. Do you want to followup within the package review at https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=233946. I got interested enough to build this package locally and run it. It sort of connected once and has been continuously crashing everytime after that. The upstream binary is more recent and more stable but I haven't managed to connect in that either which might be a network firewall block which I don't administrate. Upstream stills call the Linux client "alpha" so I am not too sure about pushing that in. Rahul From chris.stone at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 03:44:11 2007 From: chris.stone at gmail.com (Christopher Stone) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 20:44:11 -0700 Subject: Games spin? In-Reply-To: <46E6EF32.4040609@fedoraproject.org> References: <46E6B29D.5010103@fedoraproject.org> <46E6CCE8.7030002@hhs.nl> <46E6E73D.6050201@fedoraproject.org> <46E6E9D4.5040107@fedoraproject.org> <46E6EF32.4040609@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: On 9/11/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Christopher Stone wrote: > > > Wow, which games take up the most space? I had no idea we had space > > problems already. I thought the space problems were only for CDs. Is > > there any kind of breakdown on space requirements for each game? > > I need to sync my local copy of rawhide for a complete breakdown but > usually the data package for many 3D games are considerably large. > nexuiz-data is 261MB and openarena-data is 260MB for example. We are talking about a DVD here right? From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Sep 21 04:21:42 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 09:51:42 +0530 Subject: Games spin? In-Reply-To: References: <46E6B29D.5010103@fedoraproject.org> <46E6CCE8.7030002@hhs.nl> <46E6E73D.6050201@fedoraproject.org> <46E6E9D4.5040107@fedoraproject.org> <46E6EF32.4040609@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <46F346D6.8010706@fedoraproject.org> Christopher Stone wrote: > On 9/11/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> Christopher Stone wrote: >> >>> Wow, which games take up the most space? I had no idea we had space >>> problems already. I thought the space problems were only for CDs. Is >>> there any kind of breakdown on space requirements for each game? >> I need to sync my local copy of rawhide for a complete breakdown but >> usually the data package for many 3D games are considerably large. >> nexuiz-data is 261MB and openarena-data is 260MB for example. > > We are talking about a DVD here right? Yep. Check out the kickstart file I have provided and do a local spin and see what size it is. Rahul From chris.stone at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 04:46:19 2007 From: chris.stone at gmail.com (Christopher Stone) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 21:46:19 -0700 Subject: Games spin? In-Reply-To: <46F346D6.8010706@fedoraproject.org> References: <46E6B29D.5010103@fedoraproject.org> <46E6CCE8.7030002@hhs.nl> <46E6E73D.6050201@fedoraproject.org> <46E6E9D4.5040107@fedoraproject.org> <46E6EF32.4040609@fedoraproject.org> <46F346D6.8010706@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: On 9/20/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Yep. Check out the kickstart file I have provided and do a local spin > and see what size it is. Where was that again? From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Sep 21 04:52:23 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 10:22:23 +0530 Subject: Games spin? In-Reply-To: References: <46E6B29D.5010103@fedoraproject.org> <46E6CCE8.7030002@hhs.nl> <46E6E73D.6050201@fedoraproject.org> <46E6E9D4.5040107@fedoraproject.org> <46E6EF32.4040609@fedoraproject.org> <46F346D6.8010706@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <46F34E07.5050908@fedoraproject.org> Christopher Stone wrote: > On 9/20/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> Yep. Check out the kickstart file I have provided and do a local spin >> and see what size it is. > > Where was that again? See later mails on this list for the details. Rahul From chris.stone at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 04:58:29 2007 From: chris.stone at gmail.com (Christopher Stone) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 21:58:29 -0700 Subject: Games spin? In-Reply-To: <46F34E07.5050908@fedoraproject.org> References: <46E6B29D.5010103@fedoraproject.org> <46E6E73D.6050201@fedoraproject.org> <46E6E9D4.5040107@fedoraproject.org> <46E6EF32.4040609@fedoraproject.org> <46F346D6.8010706@fedoraproject.org> <46F34E07.5050908@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: On 9/20/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Christopher Stone wrote: > > On 9/20/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > >> Yep. Check out the kickstart file I have provided and do a local spin > >> and see what size it is. > > > > Where was that again? > > See later mails on this list for the details. Okay, well I guess I don't have time to do that. So I guess I can assume we have plenty of free space on the DVD. So, we have have lots of free space, why don't we include KDE? From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Sep 21 05:01:26 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 10:31:26 +0530 Subject: Games spin? In-Reply-To: References: <46E6B29D.5010103@fedoraproject.org> <46E6E73D.6050201@fedoraproject.org> <46E6E9D4.5040107@fedoraproject.org> <46E6EF32.4040609@fedoraproject.org> <46F346D6.8010706@fedoraproject.org> <46F34E07.5050908@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <46F35026.9090105@fedoraproject.org> Christopher Stone wrote: > On 9/20/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> Christopher Stone wrote: >>> On 9/20/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >>>> Yep. Check out the kickstart file I have provided and do a local spin >>>> and see what size it is. >>> Where was that again? >> See later mails on this list for the details. > > Okay, well I guess I don't have time to do that. So I guess I can > assume we have plenty of free space on the DVD. So, we have have lots > of free space, why don't we include KDE? I believe I already answered your question earlier. This is a games spin and I don't think the goals filling up an entire DVD if any space is left based on your unverified assumptions to put additional desktop environments in it. A Fedora games spin is a show case for good Free software games. If users want KDE, they already have a KDE spin available. Rahul From chris.stone at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 05:15:10 2007 From: chris.stone at gmail.com (Christopher Stone) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 22:15:10 -0700 Subject: Games spin? In-Reply-To: References: <46E6B29D.5010103@fedoraproject.org> <46E6EF32.4040609@fedoraproject.org> <46F346D6.8010706@fedoraproject.org> <46F34E07.5050908@fedoraproject.org> <46F35026.9090105@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: On 9/20/07, Christopher Stone wrote: > On 9/20/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > Christopher Stone wrote: > > > On 9/20/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > >> Christopher Stone wrote: > > >>> On 9/20/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > >>>> Yep. Check out the kickstart file I have provided and do a local spin > > >>>> and see what size it is. > > >>> Where was that again? > > >> See later mails on this list for the details. > > > > > > Okay, well I guess I don't have time to do that. So I guess I can > > > assume we have plenty of free space on the DVD. So, we have have lots > > > of free space, why don't we include KDE? > > > > I believe I already answered your question earlier. This is a games spin > > and I don't think the goals filling up an entire DVD if any space is > > left based on your unverified assumptions to put additional desktop > > environments in it. A Fedora games spin is a show case for good Free > > software games. If users want KDE, they already have a KDE spin available. > > What the hell are you talking about? You cant play the games without > a desktop. Why is GNOME installed? > This is just a bunch of BS IMO. You think free space is better than allowing a user to choose between KDE and GNOME? You make up some stupid argument about this being a game spin and how game spins only have room for *your* favorite desktop. Give me a break... From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Sep 21 05:20:50 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 10:50:50 +0530 Subject: Games spin? In-Reply-To: References: <46E6B29D.5010103@fedoraproject.org> <46E6EF32.4040609@fedoraproject.org> <46F346D6.8010706@fedoraproject.org> <46F34E07.5050908@fedoraproject.org> <46F35026.9090105@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <46F354B2.5050505@fedoraproject.org> Christopher Stone wrote: >>> I believe I already answered your question earlier. This is a games spin >>> and I don't think the goals filling up an entire DVD if any space is >>> left based on your unverified assumptions to put additional desktop >>> environments in it. A Fedora games spin is a show case for good Free >>> software games. If users want KDE, they already have a KDE spin available. >> What the hell are you talking about? You cant play the games without >> a desktop. Why is GNOME installed? As I said earlier I derived the games spin from the desktop spin kickstart file and that's the reason why we have GNOME. > This is just a bunch of BS IMO. You think free space is better than > allowing a user to choose between KDE and GNOME? Yes. Saves up downloading time and bandwidth is still costly/limited in many regions including where I am. In the future, we would probably include more games if we indeed have any space left. I would appreciate you take your time you spend on this arguments to do local testing of the spin, the details which I have in other threads that followed this one. You make up some > stupid argument about this being a game spin and how game spins only > have room for *your* favorite desktop. Give me a break... A more civil tone in such discussions would be helpful. I am not interested in a desktop environment flamewar and this isn't the right forum for that and for the record I am one of the people who supported the KDE SIG in their efforts and kickstarted some discussions around forming a community around it when I was a Fedora Board member. Ask the KDE SIG folks like Rex Dieter if I am biased on that matter. Now let's get back to the topic of games. Shall we? Rahul From chris.stone at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 05:37:57 2007 From: chris.stone at gmail.com (Christopher Stone) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 22:37:57 -0700 Subject: Games spin? In-Reply-To: <46F354B2.5050505@fedoraproject.org> References: <46E6B29D.5010103@fedoraproject.org> <46F346D6.8010706@fedoraproject.org> <46F34E07.5050908@fedoraproject.org> <46F35026.9090105@fedoraproject.org> <46F354B2.5050505@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: On 9/20/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Christopher Stone wrote: > > >>> I believe I already answered your question earlier. This is a games spin > >>> and I don't think the goals filling up an entire DVD if any space is > >>> left based on your unverified assumptions to put additional desktop > >>> environments in it. A Fedora games spin is a show case for good Free > >>> software games. If users want KDE, they already have a KDE spin available. > >> What the hell are you talking about? You cant play the games without > >> a desktop. Why is GNOME installed? > > As I said earlier I derived the games spin from the desktop spin > kickstart file and that's the reason why we have GNOME. Why not derive one from the KDE spin then? How hard can it be? I guess I will have to do it myself this weekend. How long would it take? 5 minutes? Let me know, thanks. From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Sep 21 05:39:18 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 11:09:18 +0530 Subject: Games spin? In-Reply-To: References: <46E6B29D.5010103@fedoraproject.org> <46F346D6.8010706@fedoraproject.org> <46F34E07.5050908@fedoraproject.org> <46F35026.9090105@fedoraproject.org> <46F354B2.5050505@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <46F35906.9010508@fedoraproject.org> Christopher Stone wrote: > Why not derive one from the KDE spin then? How hard can it be? I > guess I will have to do it myself this weekend. How long would it > take? 5 minutes? Let me know, thanks. You can do whatever spins you like. If you based your kickstart file on mine, it shouldn't take more than a few mins but why are you so keen on any particular desktop environment for games? It is fundamentally a unimportant detail for a games spin. Why not concentrate of which games to include, package or review or atleast test my spin and provide me some feedback instead of spending time which you claimed you didn't have to read my other mails on seemingly redundant work. Rahul From chris.stone at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 05:46:23 2007 From: chris.stone at gmail.com (Christopher Stone) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 22:46:23 -0700 Subject: Games spin? In-Reply-To: <46F35906.9010508@fedoraproject.org> References: <46E6B29D.5010103@fedoraproject.org> <46F34E07.5050908@fedoraproject.org> <46F35026.9090105@fedoraproject.org> <46F354B2.5050505@fedoraproject.org> <46F35906.9010508@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: On 9/20/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Christopher Stone wrote: > > > Why not derive one from the KDE spin then? How hard can it be? I > > guess I will have to do it myself this weekend. How long would it > > take? 5 minutes? Let me know, thanks. > > You can do whatever spins you like. If you based your kickstart file on > mine, it shouldn't take more than a few mins but why are you so keen on > any particular desktop environment for games? It is fundamentally a > unimportant detail for a games spin. > > Why not concentrate of which games to include, package or review or > atleast test my spin and provide me some feedback instead of spending > time which you claimed you didn't have to read my other mails on > seemingly redundant work. I'm curious to know how much extra space it actually takes. I would also be interested in space requirements for using xfce or even just twm. From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Fri Sep 21 05:43:30 2007 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 08:43:30 +0300 Subject: Notes on games spin In-Reply-To: <46F2BCEC.3060102@fedoraproject.org> References: <46F2BCEC.3060102@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <46F35A02.8090707@nicubunu.ro> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > Do we want a special theme for the games spin? We could request the art > team to be creative and come up with a distinctive background, look and > feel. I would be against this: a Fedora spin is Fedora, so I think it should have the same look and feel. IMO, it cold have at maximum a customized version of the default background but still based on the default background. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Sep 21 05:47:41 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 11:17:41 +0530 Subject: Notes on games spin In-Reply-To: <46F35A02.8090707@nicubunu.ro> References: <46F2BCEC.3060102@fedoraproject.org> <46F35A02.8090707@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <46F35AFD.4010007@fedoraproject.org> Nicu Buculei wrote: > Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> >> Do we want a special theme for the games spin? We could request the >> art team to be creative and come up with a distinctive background, >> look and feel. > > I would be against this: a Fedora spin is Fedora, so I think it should > have the same look and feel. IMO, it cold have at maximum a customized > version of the default background but still based on the default > background. Well the KDE and GNOME spins of Fedora have already different themes. I don't see why a games spin can't have a separate look and feel too. I am just of the opinion that spins shouldn't be just a collection of packages and shouldn't acquire their own "personality" on some small but highly visible changes. Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Sep 21 05:53:34 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 11:23:34 +0530 Subject: Games spin? In-Reply-To: References: <46E6B29D.5010103@fedoraproject.org> <46F34E07.5050908@fedoraproject.org> <46F35026.9090105@fedoraproject.org> <46F354B2.5050505@fedoraproject.org> <46F35906.9010508@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <46F35C5E.9050800@fedoraproject.org> Christopher Stone wrote: > > I'm curious to know how much extra space it actually takes. I would > also be interested in space requirements for using xfce or even just > twm. I would be interested to know those details too. Let me know when you find out. Rahul From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Fri Sep 21 05:56:47 2007 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 08:56:47 +0300 Subject: Games spin? In-Reply-To: References: <46E6B29D.5010103@fedoraproject.org> <46F34E07.5050908@fedoraproject.org> <46F35026.9090105@fedoraproject.org> <46F354B2.5050505@fedoraproject.org> <46F35906.9010508@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <46F35D1F.5050406@nicubunu.ro> Christopher Stone wrote: >> Why not concentrate of which games to include, package or review or >> atleast test my spin and provide me some feedback instead of spending >> time which you claimed you didn't have to read my other mails on >> seemingly redundant work. > > I'm curious to know how much extra space it actually takes. I would > also be interested in space requirements for using xfce or even just > twm. While I don't think including two big desktop environments (GNOME and KDE) is a good idea (better include more games instead), using xfce has some merits, not because of disk space but because of less CPU and RAM consumption, leaving more free for games (IMO using twm as default is not good, is not user-friendly enough). -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Fri Sep 21 06:00:13 2007 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 09:00:13 +0300 Subject: Notes on games spin In-Reply-To: <46F35AFD.4010007@fedoraproject.org> References: <46F2BCEC.3060102@fedoraproject.org> <46F35A02.8090707@nicubunu.ro> <46F35AFD.4010007@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <46F35DED.5030700@nicubunu.ro> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Nicu Buculei wrote: >> I would be against this: a Fedora spin is Fedora, so I think it should >> have the same look and feel. IMO, it cold have at maximum a customized >> version of the default background but still based on the default >> background. > > Well the KDE and GNOME spins of Fedora have already different themes. I > don't see why a games spin can't have a separate look and feel too. I am > just of the opinion that spins shouldn't be just a collection of > packages and shouldn't acquire their own "personality" on some small but > highly visible changes. A derivative looking so different compared with the main distro as http://ubuntustudio.org/screenshots is something personally I am not interested working on. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Sep 21 06:08:25 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 11:38:25 +0530 Subject: Games spin? In-Reply-To: <46F35D1F.5050406@nicubunu.ro> References: <46E6B29D.5010103@fedoraproject.org> <46F34E07.5050908@fedoraproject.org> <46F35026.9090105@fedoraproject.org> <46F354B2.5050505@fedoraproject.org> <46F35906.9010508@fedoraproject.org> <46F35D1F.5050406@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <46F35FD9.4050607@fedoraproject.org> Nicu Buculei wrote: > While I don't think including two big desktop environments (GNOME and > KDE) is a good idea (better include more games instead), using xfce has > some merits, not because of disk space but because of less CPU and RAM > consumption, leaving more free for games (IMO using twm as default is > not good, is not user-friendly enough). I am of that opinion too but it's quite surprising that we would discussing desktop environments or window managers so much. Users who download a games spin are unlikely to care much about that as long is it's usable, attractive and familiar IMO. Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Sep 21 06:11:42 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 11:41:42 +0530 Subject: Notes on games spin In-Reply-To: <46F35DED.5030700@nicubunu.ro> References: <46F2BCEC.3060102@fedoraproject.org> <46F35A02.8090707@nicubunu.ro> <46F35AFD.4010007@fedoraproject.org> <46F35DED.5030700@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <46F3609E.1010408@fedoraproject.org> Nicu Buculei wrote: > Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> Nicu Buculei wrote: >>> I would be against this: a Fedora spin is Fedora, so I think it >>> should have the same look and feel. IMO, it cold have at maximum a >>> customized version of the default background but still based on the >>> default background. >> >> Well the KDE and GNOME spins of Fedora have already different themes. >> I don't see why a games spin can't have a separate look and feel too. >> I am just of the opinion that spins shouldn't be just a collection of >> packages and shouldn't acquire their own "personality" on some small >> but highly visible changes. > > A derivative looking so different compared with the main distro as > http://ubuntustudio.org/screenshots is something personally I am not > interested working on. Maybe not to such extend but would you be interested in working on a games flavor of infinity theme instead? I don't have much of an idea how that would look like though. I have seen games related websites looks dark and have contrasting colors and you have a taste for that. A basic desktop background and maybe a slightly different GDM theme can make quite a difference. Rahul From chris.stone at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 06:15:33 2007 From: chris.stone at gmail.com (Christopher Stone) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 23:15:33 -0700 Subject: Games spin? In-Reply-To: <46F35FD9.4050607@fedoraproject.org> References: <46E6B29D.5010103@fedoraproject.org> <46F35026.9090105@fedoraproject.org> <46F354B2.5050505@fedoraproject.org> <46F35906.9010508@fedoraproject.org> <46F35D1F.5050406@nicubunu.ro> <46F35FD9.4050607@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: On 9/20/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Nicu Buculei wrote: > > > While I don't think including two big desktop environments (GNOME and > > KDE) is a good idea (better include more games instead), using xfce has > > some merits, not because of disk space but because of less CPU and RAM > > consumption, leaving more free for games (IMO using twm as default is > > not good, is not user-friendly enough). > > I am of that opinion too but it's quite surprising that we would > discussing desktop environments or window managers so much. Users who > download a games spin are unlikely to care much about that as long is > it's usable, attractive and familiar IMO. So you are saying we should use KDE? From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Sep 21 06:23:29 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 11:53:29 +0530 Subject: Games spin? In-Reply-To: References: <46E6B29D.5010103@fedoraproject.org> <46F35026.9090105@fedoraproject.org> <46F354B2.5050505@fedoraproject.org> <46F35906.9010508@fedoraproject.org> <46F35D1F.5050406@nicubunu.ro> <46F35FD9.4050607@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <46F36361.6010102@fedoraproject.org> Christopher Stone wrote: > On 9/20/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> Nicu Buculei wrote: >> >>> While I don't think including two big desktop environments (GNOME and >>> KDE) is a good idea (better include more games instead), using xfce has >>> some merits, not because of disk space but because of less CPU and RAM >>> consumption, leaving more free for games (IMO using twm as default is >>> not good, is not user-friendly enough). >> I am of that opinion too but it's quite surprising that we would >> discussing desktop environments or window managers so much. Users who >> download a games spin are unlikely to care much about that as long is >> it's usable, attractive and familiar IMO. > > So you are saying we should use KDE? Come on Christopher Stone. Just drop this pointless argument. I have already said that I don't consider the choice of desktop environment to be very important in this instace. Your instance of discussing this in length is only serving as a distraction from useful work like testing out the spin. Please do that instead. Rahul From chris.stone at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 06:04:51 2007 From: chris.stone at gmail.com (Christopher Stone) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 23:04:51 -0700 Subject: Games spin? In-Reply-To: <46F35D1F.5050406@nicubunu.ro> References: <46E6B29D.5010103@fedoraproject.org> <46F35026.9090105@fedoraproject.org> <46F354B2.5050505@fedoraproject.org> <46F35906.9010508@fedoraproject.org> <46F35D1F.5050406@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: On 9/20/07, Nicu Buculei wrote: > Christopher Stone wrote: > >> Why not concentrate of which games to include, package or review or > >> atleast test my spin and provide me some feedback instead of spending > >> time which you claimed you didn't have to read my other mails on > >> seemingly redundant work. > > > > I'm curious to know how much extra space it actually takes. I would > > also be interested in space requirements for using xfce or even just > > twm. > > While I don't think including two big desktop environments (GNOME and > KDE) is a good idea (better include more games instead), using xfce has > some merits, not because of disk space but because of less CPU and RAM > consumption, leaving more free for games (IMO using twm as default is > not good, is not user-friendly enough). For the record, I too would be in favor of using xfce especially if it saves space. There is also the fact that no other spin has xfce as a default, so this too I think would be cool. +1 From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Fri Sep 21 06:39:02 2007 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 09:39:02 +0300 Subject: Notes on games spin In-Reply-To: <46F3609E.1010408@fedoraproject.org> References: <46F2BCEC.3060102@fedoraproject.org> <46F35A02.8090707@nicubunu.ro> <46F35AFD.4010007@fedoraproject.org> <46F35DED.5030700@nicubunu.ro> <46F3609E.1010408@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <46F36706.3010508@nicubunu.ro> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Nicu Buculei wrote: >> A derivative looking so different compared with the main distro as >> http://ubuntustudio.org/screenshots is something personally I am not >> interested working on. > > Maybe not to such extend but would you be interested in working on a > games flavor of infinity theme instead? I don't have much of an idea how > that would look like though. I have seen games related websites looks > dark and have contrasting colors and you have a taste for that. A basic > desktop background and maybe a slightly different GDM theme can make > quite a difference. My current vision (it may change easily) is something like this: I believe everyone know the "Tux with Quake rocket launcher" image, is very common on the web - http://img.hexus.net/v2/features/linuxgaming/penguincomputing.jpg I would like to have a general mascot for Fedora (we have quite a few proposals, but no one emerged) and a derivative of this for Fedora Games, just in the style of "Tux with Quake rocket launcher" so the graphics for the games spin could be like the default graphics with that personalized mascot added in a meaningful way. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Sep 21 06:42:44 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 12:12:44 +0530 Subject: Notes on games spin In-Reply-To: <46F36706.3010508@nicubunu.ro> References: <46F2BCEC.3060102@fedoraproject.org> <46F35A02.8090707@nicubunu.ro> <46F35AFD.4010007@fedoraproject.org> <46F35DED.5030700@nicubunu.ro> <46F3609E.1010408@fedoraproject.org> <46F36706.3010508@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <46F367E4.7090905@fedoraproject.org> Nicu Buculei wrote: > Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> Nicu Buculei wrote: >>> A derivative looking so different compared with the main distro as >>> http://ubuntustudio.org/screenshots is something personally I am not >>> interested working on. >> >> Maybe not to such extend but would you be interested in working on a >> games flavor of infinity theme instead? I don't have much of an idea >> how that would look like though. I have seen games related websites >> looks dark and have contrasting colors and you have a taste for that. >> A basic desktop background and maybe a slightly different GDM theme >> can make quite a difference. > > My current vision (it may change easily) is something like this: I > believe everyone know the "Tux with Quake rocket launcher" image, is > very common on the web - > http://img.hexus.net/v2/features/linuxgaming/penguincomputing.jpg > > I would like to have a general mascot for Fedora (we have quite a few > proposals, but no one emerged) and a derivative of this for Fedora > Games, just in the style of "Tux with Quake rocket launcher" so the > graphics for the games spin could be like the default graphics with that > personalized mascot added in a meaningful way. A mascot is something I find desirable too if only to get the freedom to be creative with variants more than the Fedora logo but I was looking for something that can be done for test 3 or atleast the general release of Fedora 8 and the mascot is unlikely to be decided by then. Rahul From j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl Fri Sep 21 06:39:53 2007 From: j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl (Hans de Goede) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 08:39:53 +0200 Subject: Notes on games spin In-Reply-To: <46F2CFFF.8010100@fedoraproject.org> References: <46F2BCEC.3060102@fedoraproject.org> <46F2CD3C.5070504@hhs.nl> <46F2CFFF.8010100@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <46F36739.80509@hhs.nl> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hans de Goede wrote: > >> I've been thinking about this, and I'm planning in writing a small >> bash script which uses zenity which can be used as wrapper around 3d >> games, this script will then first check for dri, and if that isn't >> available pop up a note (using zenity) saying that 3D hardware accel >> is needed (with explanation about no open source drivers, etc.) and >> then exit. > > Sounds good for the short-term alteast. I don't know if we need a > "proper" app that uses libnotify instead. Notifications on the system > tray are much better than dialog boxes IMO. > Not in this case, thje idea is that the (error) dialog gets shown when the user tries to launch a 3d game from the menu. The idea is to create a generic wrapper script and then modify all opengl games to use this (atleast all in the kickstart file), I came to this idea cause we could add some generic applet saying that no hw 3D is available and that thus some games won't work properly. But how will a user know which games will be 3D? And quiting a game when its in software rendering mode can be quite painfull, so by adding this wrapper and making games throw an error when there is no hw 3D we avoid the hard to quit when in software rendering mode problem, and we also solve the problem of the user needing to know which games require 3d support, if he tries one which does require 3d support he will just get an error. >> I would say that we would want to have the second live client, that >> would need someone to push the submitter of it, he is working on it >> but mostely doing upstream work. Alternatively we could suggest >> comaintaining to him and then one of us could get the packages through >> review, while he concentrates on improving it upstream. > > Ok. Do you want to followup within the package review at > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=233946. I got > interested enough to build this package locally and run it. It sort of > connected once and has been continuously crashing everytime after that. > > The upstream binary is more recent and more stable but I haven't managed > to connect in that either which might be a network firewall block which > I don't administrate. Upstream stills call the Linux client "alpha" so > I am not too sure about pushing that in. > Hmm I didn't know it was _that_ bad. I'm not a second life user, I just thought having the client in F-8 and the games spin would be cool. In that case I guesswe better wait till F-9. Regards, Hans From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Sep 21 06:57:52 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 12:27:52 +0530 Subject: Notes on games spin In-Reply-To: <46F36739.80509@hhs.nl> References: <46F2BCEC.3060102@fedoraproject.org> <46F2CD3C.5070504@hhs.nl> <46F2CFFF.8010100@fedoraproject.org> <46F36739.80509@hhs.nl> Message-ID: <46F36B70.4090600@fedoraproject.org> Hans de Goede wrote: > > Not in this case, thje idea is that the (error) dialog gets shown when > the user tries to launch a 3d game from the menu. > > The idea is to create a generic wrapper script and then modify all > opengl games to use this (atleast all in the kickstart file) I think this would way too annoying. I just want to provide a gentle nag. Not to frustrate users every time they try to launch 3D games which I suspect will happen if we modify all the related menu entries to launch a dialog box. > Hmm I didn't know it was _that_ bad. I'm not a second life user, I just > thought having the client in F-8 and the games spin would be cool. In > that case I guesswe better wait till F-9. I am not a second life user either. I was basically checking it out when I began planning on a games spin and spend a few weeks researching the available ones. You might want to try out the client yourself. Doesn't take more than a few mins to create a user. I plan to write a few reviews shortly when I get more time. Rahul Rahul From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Fri Sep 21 06:57:33 2007 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 09:57:33 +0300 Subject: Notes on games spin In-Reply-To: <46F367E4.7090905@fedoraproject.org> References: <46F2BCEC.3060102@fedoraproject.org> <46F35A02.8090707@nicubunu.ro> <46F35AFD.4010007@fedoraproject.org> <46F35DED.5030700@nicubunu.ro> <46F3609E.1010408@fedoraproject.org> <46F36706.3010508@nicubunu.ro> <46F367E4.7090905@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <46F36B5D.7030601@nicubunu.ro> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > A mascot is something I find desirable too if only to get the freedom to > be creative with variants more than the Fedora logo but I was looking > for something that can be done for test 3 or atleast the general release > of Fedora 8 and the mascot is unlikely to be decided by then. Considering the lack of enthusiasm about it, we may never have a mascot. But one can dream right? One of my "dreams" is about a "skin" for a game such as SuperTux where the main character is replaced with the Fedora mascot. -- nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl Fri Sep 21 07:13:45 2007 From: j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl (Hans de Goede) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 09:13:45 +0200 Subject: Notes on games spin In-Reply-To: <46F36B70.4090600@fedoraproject.org> References: <46F2BCEC.3060102@fedoraproject.org> <46F2CD3C.5070504@hhs.nl> <46F2CFFF.8010100@fedoraproject.org> <46F36739.80509@hhs.nl> <46F36B70.4090600@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <46F36F29.1000006@hhs.nl> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hans de Goede wrote: > >> >> Not in this case, thje idea is that the (error) dialog gets shown when >> the user tries to launch a 3d game from the menu. >> >> The idea is to create a generic wrapper script and then modify all >> opengl games to use this (atleast all in the kickstart file) > > I think this would way too annoying. I just want to provide a gentle > nag. Not to frustrate users every time they try to launch 3D games which > I suspect will happen if we modify all the related menu entries to > launch a dialog box. > Note that the dialog will _only_ be shown when dri (direct rendering) is not available, so if we wouldn't show the dialog (and not start the game) the user would get a slide show (software rendering) and navigating a menu with the mouse when you get 3 frames per second can be quite annoying. Alternatives are welcome. Notice that my plan means that users of the other spins who install an opengl game through yum will get the same dialog if they don't have direct rendering available. I believe this is a feature, but if others disagree then please say so, then I won't spend time on this. Regards, Hans From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Sep 21 08:13:21 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 13:43:21 +0530 Subject: Notes on games spin In-Reply-To: <46F36F29.1000006@hhs.nl> References: <46F2BCEC.3060102@fedoraproject.org> <46F2CD3C.5070504@hhs.nl> <46F2CFFF.8010100@fedoraproject.org> <46F36739.80509@hhs.nl> <46F36B70.4090600@fedoraproject.org> <46F36F29.1000006@hhs.nl> Message-ID: <46F37D21.5080008@fedoraproject.org> Hans de Goede wrote: > Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> Hans de Goede wrote: >> >>> >>> Not in this case, thje idea is that the (error) dialog gets shown >>> when the user tries to launch a 3d game from the menu. >>> >>> The idea is to create a generic wrapper script and then modify all >>> opengl games to use this (atleast all in the kickstart file) >> >> I think this would way too annoying. I just want to provide a gentle >> nag. Not to frustrate users every time they try to launch 3D games >> which I suspect will happen if we modify all the related menu entries >> to launch a dialog box. >> > > Note that the dialog will _only_ be shown when dri (direct rendering) is > not available, so if we wouldn't show the dialog (and not start the > game) the user would get a slide show (software rendering) and > navigating a menu with the mouse when you get 3 frames per second can be > quite annoying. Here is a alternative solution: Login time, check whether DRI is enabled and popup a message "Your system does not have open accelerated 3D drivers available or installed on your system. This means that you will not able to play 3D games efficiently. Click here for more information" and point them to a wiki link in Fedora with more information. Have a check box below saying "Don't remind me, next time" or just bring this dialog box up only on first login for a new user. Rahul From j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl Fri Sep 21 08:24:49 2007 From: j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl (Hans de Goede) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 10:24:49 +0200 Subject: Notes on games spin In-Reply-To: <46F37D21.5080008@fedoraproject.org> References: <46F2BCEC.3060102@fedoraproject.org> <46F2CD3C.5070504@hhs.nl> <46F2CFFF.8010100@fedoraproject.org> <46F36739.80509@hhs.nl> <46F36B70.4090600@fedoraproject.org> <46F36F29.1000006@hhs.nl> <46F37D21.5080008@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <46F37FD1.3000604@hhs.nl> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hans de Goede wrote: >> Rahul Sundaram wrote: >>> Hans de Goede wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Not in this case, thje idea is that the (error) dialog gets shown >>>> when the user tries to launch a 3d game from the menu. >>>> >>>> The idea is to create a generic wrapper script and then modify all >>>> opengl games to use this (atleast all in the kickstart file) >>> >>> I think this would way too annoying. I just want to provide a gentle >>> nag. Not to frustrate users every time they try to launch 3D games >>> which I suspect will happen if we modify all the related menu entries >>> to launch a dialog box. >>> >> >> Note that the dialog will _only_ be shown when dri (direct rendering) >> is not available, so if we wouldn't show the dialog (and not start the >> game) the user would get a slide show (software rendering) and >> navigating a menu with the mouse when you get 3 frames per second can >> be quite annoying. > > Here is a alternative solution: > > Login time, check whether DRI is enabled and popup a message "Your > system does not have open accelerated 3D drivers available or installed > on your system. This means that you will not able to play 3D games > efficiently. Click here for more information" and point them to a wiki > link in Fedora with more information. > > Have a check box below saying "Don't remind me, next time" or just bring > this dialog box up only on first login for a new user. > The user then still won't know which games use opengl and which games he/she thus shouldn't try to start. Starting one of them will result in a slide show with very poor response to mouse keyboard events making it hard to quit the game again. This is IMHO not user friendly, so I believe its better to check for dri when a game is launched and refuse to launch, with a message dialog explaining why. Regards, Hans From chris.stone at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 06:34:58 2007 From: chris.stone at gmail.com (Christopher Stone) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 23:34:58 -0700 Subject: Games spin? In-Reply-To: <46F36361.6010102@fedoraproject.org> References: <46E6B29D.5010103@fedoraproject.org> <46F354B2.5050505@fedoraproject.org> <46F35906.9010508@fedoraproject.org> <46F35D1F.5050406@nicubunu.ro> <46F35FD9.4050607@fedoraproject.org> <46F36361.6010102@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: On 9/20/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Christopher Stone wrote: > > On 9/20/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > >> Nicu Buculei wrote: > >> > >>> While I don't think including two big desktop environments (GNOME and > >>> KDE) is a good idea (better include more games instead), using xfce has > >>> some merits, not because of disk space but because of less CPU and RAM > >>> consumption, leaving more free for games (IMO using twm as default is > >>> not good, is not user-friendly enough). > >> I am of that opinion too but it's quite surprising that we would > >> discussing desktop environments or window managers so much. Users who > >> download a games spin are unlikely to care much about that as long is > >> it's usable, attractive and familiar IMO. > > > > So you are saying we should use KDE? > > Come on Christopher Stone. Just drop this pointless argument. I have > already said that I don't consider the choice of desktop environment to > be very important in this instace. Your instance of discussing this in > length is only serving as a distraction from useful work like testing > out the spin. Please do that instead. I would rather test out a KDE or Xfce spin. If I can find the time this weekend I might try making a kickstart file for an Xfce version and test that, and try to get space requirements on the different desktop configurations. From limb at jcomserv.net Fri Sep 21 10:54:07 2007 From: limb at jcomserv.net (Jon Ciesla) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 05:54:07 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Games spin? In-Reply-To: References: <46E6B29D.5010103@fedoraproject.org> <46F354B2.5050505@fedoraproject.org> <46F35906.9010508@fedoraproject.org> <46F35D1F.5050406@nicubunu.ro> <46F35FD9.4050607@fedoraproject.org> <46F36361.6010102@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <16698.63.85.68.164.1190372047.squirrel@mail.jcomserv.net> > On 9/20/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> Christopher Stone wrote: >> > On 9/20/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> >> Nicu Buculei wrote: >> >> >> >>> While I don't think including two big desktop environments (GNOME >> and >> >>> KDE) is a good idea (better include more games instead), using xfce >> has >> >>> some merits, not because of disk space but because of less CPU and >> RAM >> >>> consumption, leaving more free for games (IMO using twm as default >> is >> >>> not good, is not user-friendly enough). >> >> I am of that opinion too but it's quite surprising that we would >> >> discussing desktop environments or window managers so much. Users who >> >> download a games spin are unlikely to care much about that as long is >> >> it's usable, attractive and familiar IMO. >> > >> > So you are saying we should use KDE? >> >> Come on Christopher Stone. Just drop this pointless argument. I have >> already said that I don't consider the choice of desktop environment to >> be very important in this instace. Your instance of discussing this in >> length is only serving as a distraction from useful work like testing >> out the spin. Please do that instead. > > I would rather test out a KDE or Xfce spin. If I can find the time > this weekend I might try making a kickstart file for an Xfce version > and test that, and try to get space requirements on the different > desktop configurations. Personally, I think XFCE and Gnome would be my preferences, in that order. XFCE because it's light (although we'd probably have gnome and kde libs installed anyway for several games) and Gnome because it's the default for Fedora and what Joe Sixpack will expect if he's used a vanilla spin. Nothing against KDE, just seems simpler this way. In fact, given the library deps, just using Gnome and not installing XFCE might be lighter still. I agree with Rahul, we should be focusing on the games, despite our personal preferences. For example, I maintain nexuiz, even though I SUCK at it. :) > _______________________________________________ > Fedora-games-list mailing list > Fedora-games-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-games-list > -- novus ordo absurdum From chris.stone at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 06:09:29 2007 From: chris.stone at gmail.com (Christopher Stone) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 23:09:29 -0700 Subject: Notes on games spin In-Reply-To: <46F35DED.5030700@nicubunu.ro> References: <46F2BCEC.3060102@fedoraproject.org> <46F35A02.8090707@nicubunu.ro> <46F35AFD.4010007@fedoraproject.org> <46F35DED.5030700@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: On 9/20/07, Nicu Buculei wrote: > Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > Nicu Buculei wrote: > >> I would be against this: a Fedora spin is Fedora, so I think it should > >> have the same look and feel. IMO, it cold have at maximum a customized > >> version of the default background but still based on the default > >> background. > > > > Well the KDE and GNOME spins of Fedora have already different themes. I > > don't see why a games spin can't have a separate look and feel too. I am > > just of the opinion that spins shouldn't be just a collection of > > packages and shouldn't acquire their own "personality" on some small but > > highly visible changes. > > A derivative looking so different compared with the main distro as > http://ubuntustudio.org/screenshots is something personally I am not > interested working on. I havn't seen the default theme for Fedora 8, but if the Fedora artwork team can tweak it slightly to give a games feel, I think that would be cool. I would not be in favor of a completely different theme, but would support slight tweaks to the main theme. From chris.stone at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 05:09:18 2007 From: chris.stone at gmail.com (Christopher Stone) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 22:09:18 -0700 Subject: Games spin? In-Reply-To: <46F35026.9090105@fedoraproject.org> References: <46E6B29D.5010103@fedoraproject.org> <46E6E9D4.5040107@fedoraproject.org> <46E6EF32.4040609@fedoraproject.org> <46F346D6.8010706@fedoraproject.org> <46F34E07.5050908@fedoraproject.org> <46F35026.9090105@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: On 9/20/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Christopher Stone wrote: > > On 9/20/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > >> Christopher Stone wrote: > >>> On 9/20/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > >>>> Yep. Check out the kickstart file I have provided and do a local spin > >>>> and see what size it is. > >>> Where was that again? > >> See later mails on this list for the details. > > > > Okay, well I guess I don't have time to do that. So I guess I can > > assume we have plenty of free space on the DVD. So, we have have lots > > of free space, why don't we include KDE? > > I believe I already answered your question earlier. This is a games spin > and I don't think the goals filling up an entire DVD if any space is > left based on your unverified assumptions to put additional desktop > environments in it. A Fedora games spin is a show case for good Free > software games. If users want KDE, they already have a KDE spin available. What the hell are you talking about? You cant play the games without a desktop. Why is GNOME installed? From j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl Fri Sep 21 12:29:26 2007 From: j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl (Hans de Goede) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 14:29:26 +0200 Subject: Games spin? In-Reply-To: References: <46E6B29D.5010103@fedoraproject.org> <46E6E9D4.5040107@fedoraproject.org> <46E6EF32.4040609@fedoraproject.org> <46F346D6.8010706@fedoraproject.org> <46F34E07.5050908@fedoraproject.org> <46F35026.9090105@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <46F3B926.5060407@hhs.nl> Rahul, Chris, or Chris, Rahul, Can you please continue your little flamewar in private please? Regards, Hans From chris.stone at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 13:03:02 2007 From: chris.stone at gmail.com (Christopher Stone) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 06:03:02 -0700 Subject: Games spin? In-Reply-To: <46F3B926.5060407@hhs.nl> References: <46E6B29D.5010103@fedoraproject.org> <46E6EF32.4040609@fedoraproject.org> <46F346D6.8010706@fedoraproject.org> <46F34E07.5050908@fedoraproject.org> <46F35026.9090105@fedoraproject.org> <46F3B926.5060407@hhs.nl> Message-ID: On 9/21/07, Hans de Goede wrote: > > > Rahul, Chris, or Chris, Rahul, > > Can you please continue your little flamewar in private please? What flame war? No. From seg at haxxed.com Fri Sep 21 16:38:58 2007 From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 11:38:58 -0500 Subject: Notes on games spin In-Reply-To: <46F36739.80509@hhs.nl> References: <46F2BCEC.3060102@fedoraproject.org> <46F2CD3C.5070504@hhs.nl> <46F2CFFF.8010100@fedoraproject.org> <46F36739.80509@hhs.nl> Message-ID: <1190392739.8146.48.camel@localhost> On Fri, 2007-09-21 at 08:39 +0200, Hans de Goede wrote: > > Ok. Do you want to followup within the package review at > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=233946. I got > > interested enough to build this package locally and run it. It sort of > > connected once and has been continuously crashing everytime after that. > > > > The upstream binary is more recent and more stable but I haven't managed > > to connect in that either which might be a network firewall block which > > I don't administrate. Upstream stills call the Linux client "alpha" so > > I am not too sure about pushing that in. > > > > Hmm I didn't know it was _that_ bad. I'm not a second life user, I just thought > having the client in F-8 and the games spin would be cool. In that case I > guesswe better wait till F-9. I discovered some buffer under/overflows in OpenJPEG (Big nasty overrun in the vectorization patch, actually) which seemed to be the source of most of the crashyness. SL runs real stable for me now. :) Yes, I've been busy trying to work things upstream (and busy with life) so I've been rather distracted from packaging. I need to get a new OpenJPEG package out, I think I got SVN snapshots working the way the packaging guidelines want. Note that upstream considers the Linux build "alpha" as long as it's not feature complete. Video streaming support via gstreamer was recently added, which was the last missing feature... until they added voice support. Which the Linux client is still missing. Sigh. (Voice support is implemented via a binary blob and uses a patent encumbered codec, so even if the Linux version of the binary blob turns up, Fedora users are still SOL until that changes. Trust me, I've chewed out upstream about this.) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Sep 21 16:40:12 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 22:10:12 +0530 Subject: Notes on games spin In-Reply-To: <1190392739.8146.48.camel@localhost> References: <46F2BCEC.3060102@fedoraproject.org> <46F2CD3C.5070504@hhs.nl> <46F2CFFF.8010100@fedoraproject.org> <46F36739.80509@hhs.nl> <1190392739.8146.48.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <46F3F3EC.3000206@fedoraproject.org> Callum Lerwick wrote: Sigh. (Voice support > is implemented via a binary blob and uses a patent encumbered codec, so > even if the Linux version of the binary blob turns up, Fedora users are > still SOL until that changes. Trust me, I've chewed out upstream about > this.) (Thanks for the status info) What has been their response on the codec issue? Rahul From seg at haxxed.com Fri Sep 21 16:55:12 2007 From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 11:55:12 -0500 Subject: Notes on games spin In-Reply-To: <46F36F29.1000006@hhs.nl> References: <46F2BCEC.3060102@fedoraproject.org> <46F2CD3C.5070504@hhs.nl> <46F2CFFF.8010100@fedoraproject.org> <46F36739.80509@hhs.nl> <46F36B70.4090600@fedoraproject.org> <46F36F29.1000006@hhs.nl> Message-ID: <1190393712.8146.62.camel@localhost> On Fri, 2007-09-21 at 09:13 +0200, Hans de Goede wrote: > Note that the dialog will _only_ be shown when dri (direct rendering) is not > available, so if we wouldn't show the dialog (and not start the game) the user > would get a slide show (software rendering) and navigating a menu with the > mouse when you get 3 frames per second can be quite annoying. > > Alternatives are welcome. Notice that my plan means that users of the other > spins who install an opengl game through yum will get the same dialog if they > don't have direct rendering available. I believe this is a feature, but if > others disagree then please say so, then I won't spend time on this. IMHO this is a very good idea and should be a distro-wide feature. If DRI is not available the user should be informed in an understandable manner and possibly linked to a wiki page for more information, rather than mysteriously failing or running real slow. The latter case usually results in "Fedora sux cuz its slow" threads in the forums. Also consider the case of a user with supported hardware, but the driver just hasn't initialized DRI properly for whatever reason. Fast user switching, for one, seems to result in only the first session logged in getting DRI, later sessions are SOL. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From seg at haxxed.com Fri Sep 21 17:20:12 2007 From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 12:20:12 -0500 Subject: Notes on games spin In-Reply-To: <46F3F3EC.3000206@fedoraproject.org> References: <46F2BCEC.3060102@fedoraproject.org> <46F2CD3C.5070504@hhs.nl> <46F2CFFF.8010100@fedoraproject.org> <46F36739.80509@hhs.nl> <1190392739.8146.48.camel@localhost> <46F3F3EC.3000206@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1190395212.8146.79.camel@localhost> On Fri, 2007-09-21 at 22:10 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > (Thanks for the status info) > > What has been their response on the codec issue? "NDA prevents us from saying anything about it" basically. They can't even tell me what the hangup really is. It appears the majority of the thing is open source libraries and standard SIP stuff, so seems to me they could just drop in Speex instead of Siren14 and everything would be swell. But... they can't comment on this. I should note the binary blob is actually a completely independent executable from the SL client, the SL client controls it through a TCP socket, it makes its own connections to Vivox's servers and even outputs its own audio. (apparently using OpenAL...) So the viewer itself is still good for Fedora, we just don't get voice. (If you're really desperate to get voice you can run the daemon with Wine, or since its TCP, you can even run the voice daemon in VMware or a completely separate physical box...) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From wayward4now at gmail.com Sat Sep 22 06:32:45 2007 From: wayward4now at gmail.com (Ric Moore) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 02:32:45 -0400 Subject: Games spin? In-Reply-To: <46F36361.6010102@fedoraproject.org> References: <46E6B29D.5010103@fedoraproject.org> <46F35026.9090105@fedoraproject.org> <46F354B2.5050505@fedoraproject.org> <46F35906.9010508@fedoraproject.org> <46F35D1F.5050406@nicubunu.ro> <46F35FD9.4050607@fedoraproject.org> <46F36361.6010102@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1190442765.5221.99.camel@localhost.localdomain> 1. On Fri, 2007-09-21 at 11:53 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Christopher Stone wrote: > > On 9/20/07, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > >> Nicu Buculei wrote: > >> > >>> While I don't think including two big desktop environments (GNOME and > >>> KDE) is a good idea (better include more games instead), using xfce has > >>> some merits, not because of disk space but because of less CPU and RAM > >>> consumption, leaving more free for games (IMO using twm as default is > >>> not good, is not user-friendly enough). > >> I am of that opinion too but it's quite surprising that we would > >> discussing desktop environments or window managers so much. Users who > >> download a games spin are unlikely to care much about that as long is > >> it's usable, attractive and familiar IMO. > > > > So you are saying we should use KDE? > > Come on Christopher Stone. Just drop this pointless argument. I have > already said that I don't consider the choice of desktop environment to > be very important in this instace. Your instance of discussing this in > length is only serving as a distraction from useful work like testing > out the spin. Please do that instead. I agree, I already have both Gnome and KDE installed, so I'd hate to waste the bandwidth sucking down something already installed. I haven't seen much of any kind of program that didn't work under both. I'd leave it as an exercise for the user to decide what he wants to run as his games desktop. I'm running Croquet (which is practically another OS) on a KDE desktop and with plenty of CPU and memory, no sweat. My older Pentium 4 would gag. So, I'd cure it with xfce. My choice, and I'd make it for me and my needs. That's the Linux way. Keep the spin simply games. Ric -- ================================================ My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say: "There are two Great Sins in the world... ..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity. Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad. Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/ http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar http://www.wayward4now.net <---down4now too ================================================ From j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl Sat Sep 22 09:41:42 2007 From: j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl (Hans de Goede) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 11:41:42 +0200 Subject: Notes on games spin In-Reply-To: <1190393712.8146.62.camel@localhost> References: <46F2BCEC.3060102@fedoraproject.org> <46F2CD3C.5070504@hhs.nl> <46F2CFFF.8010100@fedoraproject.org> <46F36739.80509@hhs.nl> <46F36B70.4090600@fedoraproject.org> <46F36F29.1000006@hhs.nl> <1190393712.8146.62.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <46F4E356.1060903@hhs.nl> Callum Lerwick wrote: > On Fri, 2007-09-21 at 09:13 +0200, Hans de Goede wrote: >> Note that the dialog will _only_ be shown when dri (direct rendering) is not >> available, so if we wouldn't show the dialog (and not start the game) the user >> would get a slide show (software rendering) and navigating a menu with the >> mouse when you get 3 frames per second can be quite annoying. >> >> Alternatives are welcome. Notice that my plan means that users of the other >> spins who install an opengl game through yum will get the same dialog if they >> don't have direct rendering available. I believe this is a feature, but if >> others disagree then please say so, then I won't spend time on this. > > IMHO this is a very good idea and should be a distro-wide feature. If > DRI is not available the user should be informed in an understandable > manner and possibly linked to a wiki page for more information, rather > than mysteriously failing or running real slow. The latter case usually > results in "Fedora sux cuz its slow" threads in the forums. > > Also consider the case of a user with supported hardware, but the driver > just hasn't initialized DRI properly for whatever reason. Fast user > switching, for one, seems to result in only the first session logged in > getting DRI, later sessions are SOL. > Okay, I've written a small handy utility script for this and put it in a separate package, so that we don't get a zillion copies of the script that need updating when changes are needed. It is a very small simple package, but before we can start adding the script to the 3D games which we want to put on the DVD, it does first need a review, so if one of you could give it a quick review please: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=301571 The included README explains how to use it in your packages. Regards, Hans From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sat Sep 22 09:43:48 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 15:13:48 +0530 Subject: Notes on games spin In-Reply-To: <46F4E356.1060903@hhs.nl> References: <46F2BCEC.3060102@fedoraproject.org> <46F2CD3C.5070504@hhs.nl> <46F2CFFF.8010100@fedoraproject.org> <46F36739.80509@hhs.nl> <46F36B70.4090600@fedoraproject.org> <46F36F29.1000006@hhs.nl> <1190393712.8146.62.camel@localhost> <46F4E356.1060903@hhs.nl> Message-ID: <46F4E3D4.1090005@fedoraproject.org> Hans de Goede wrote: > Okay, I've written a small handy utility script for this and put it in a > separate package, so that we don't get a zillion copies of the script > that need updating when changes are needed. > > It is a very small simple package, but before we can start adding the > script to the 3D games which we want to put on the DVD, it does first > need a review, so if one of you could give it a quick review please: > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=301571 > > The included README explains how to use it in your packages. I just build this package and checked it out. Looks like you need to fix some typos. You might want to announce this more widely when this package is in the repository. Rahul From j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl Sat Sep 22 09:51:08 2007 From: j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl (Hans de Goede) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 11:51:08 +0200 Subject: Notes on games spin In-Reply-To: <46F4E3D4.1090005@fedoraproject.org> References: <46F2BCEC.3060102@fedoraproject.org> <46F2CD3C.5070504@hhs.nl> <46F2CFFF.8010100@fedoraproject.org> <46F36739.80509@hhs.nl> <46F36B70.4090600@fedoraproject.org> <46F36F29.1000006@hhs.nl> <1190393712.8146.62.camel@localhost> <46F4E356.1060903@hhs.nl> <46F4E3D4.1090005@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <46F4E58C.3050305@hhs.nl> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hans de Goede wrote: > >> Okay, I've written a small handy utility script for this and put it in >> a separate package, so that we don't get a zillion copies of the >> script that need updating when changes are needed. >> >> It is a very small simple package, but before we can start adding the >> script to the 3D games which we want to put on the DVD, it does first >> need a review, so if one of you could give it a quick review please: >> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=301571 >> >> The included README explains how to use it in your packages. > > I just build this package and checked it out. Looks like you need to fix > some typos. Thanks for checking it out, feedback with regard to the typos much appreciated, English isn't my first language. > You might want to announce this more widely when this > package is in the repository. Erm, more widely then the games mailinglist? Regards, Hans From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sat Sep 22 10:04:50 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 15:34:50 +0530 Subject: Notes on games spin In-Reply-To: <46F4E58C.3050305@hhs.nl> References: <46F2BCEC.3060102@fedoraproject.org> <46F2CD3C.5070504@hhs.nl> <46F2CFFF.8010100@fedoraproject.org> <46F36739.80509@hhs.nl> <46F36B70.4090600@fedoraproject.org> <46F36F29.1000006@hhs.nl> <1190393712.8146.62.camel@localhost> <46F4E356.1060903@hhs.nl> <46F4E3D4.1090005@fedoraproject.org> <46F4E58C.3050305@hhs.nl> Message-ID: <46F4E8C2.3060805@fedoraproject.org> Hans de Goede wrote: > > Thanks for checking it out, feedback with regard to the typos much > appreciated, English isn't my first language. Neither it is mine for that matter. "Your system currently is not capabable of hardware accellerated 3D. Therefor $GAME cannot run." capable and accelerated is misspelled. "Usually the cause of this error is that there are no Free Software drivers for your graphicscard, please contact your graphicscard manufacturer and kindly ask them to provide Free Software support for your card." You need space in between graphics and card. Also it might be better to point to a wiki page. >> You might want to announce this more widely when this package is in >> the repository. > > Erm, more widely then the games mailinglist? Yeah unless all the game packagers are in this list and active watching discussions, dropping them a mail tends to get better attention. Despite all the activity on the license tag, only about 50% have fixed their packages for example. I guess the traffic is getting too much for people to keep track of all the discussions. Also I noticed that you published your scripts under public domain. Atleast in the US, it is better to use a permissive license like MIT X11 license or 2 clause BSD license because they carry a warranty and avoid personal liability without causing any licensing issues. Just FYI. Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sat Sep 22 10:54:40 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 16:24:40 +0530 Subject: Notes on games spin In-Reply-To: <46F4E356.1060903@hhs.nl> References: <46F2BCEC.3060102@fedoraproject.org> <46F2CD3C.5070504@hhs.nl> <46F2CFFF.8010100@fedoraproject.org> <46F36739.80509@hhs.nl> <46F36B70.4090600@fedoraproject.org> <46F36F29.1000006@hhs.nl> <1190393712.8146.62.camel@localhost> <46F4E356.1060903@hhs.nl> Message-ID: <46F4F470.4060804@fedoraproject.org> Hans de Goede wrote: > It is a very small simple package, but before we can start adding the > script to the 3D games which we want to put on the DVD, it does first > need a review, so if one of you could give it a quick review please: > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=301571 > > The included README explains how to use it in your packages. Another thing, is this dialog box going to popup before the game gets launched and would the end user have the choice of whether or not to launch and the game? Rahul From j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl Sat Sep 22 13:21:27 2007 From: j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl (Hans de Goede) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 15:21:27 +0200 Subject: Notes on games spin In-Reply-To: <46F4F470.4060804@fedoraproject.org> References: <46F2BCEC.3060102@fedoraproject.org> <46F2CD3C.5070504@hhs.nl> <46F2CFFF.8010100@fedoraproject.org> <46F36739.80509@hhs.nl> <46F36B70.4090600@fedoraproject.org> <46F36F29.1000006@hhs.nl> <1190393712.8146.62.camel@localhost> <46F4E356.1060903@hhs.nl> <46F4F470.4060804@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <46F516D7.5010807@hhs.nl> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hans de Goede wrote: > >> It is a very small simple package, but before we can start adding the >> script to the 3D games which we want to put on the DVD, it does first >> need a review, so if one of you could give it a quick review please: >> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=301571 >> >> The included README explains how to use it in your packages. > > Another thing, is this dialog box going to popup before the game gets > launched and would the end user have the choice of whether or not to > launch and the game? > Yes it gets popped up, and no currently the user does not get a choice, if there is no direct rendering the game will not launch. This can be changed or even made configurable on a per game basis, but I see little use in this. If there is no DRI _at_all_, then OpenGL apps will suck, they will suck to the point of being unusable. Notice that if there is any DRI, even if its s3 savage pseudo accelerated 3d, the game will launch just fine. Regards, Hans From j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl Sat Sep 22 13:28:23 2007 From: j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl (Hans de Goede) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 15:28:23 +0200 Subject: Notes on games spin In-Reply-To: <46F4E8C2.3060805@fedoraproject.org> References: <46F2BCEC.3060102@fedoraproject.org> <46F2CD3C.5070504@hhs.nl> <46F2CFFF.8010100@fedoraproject.org> <46F36739.80509@hhs.nl> <46F36B70.4090600@fedoraproject.org> <46F36F29.1000006@hhs.nl> <1190393712.8146.62.camel@localhost> <46F4E356.1060903@hhs.nl> <46F4E3D4.1090005@fedoraproject.org> <46F4E58C.3050305@hhs.nl> <46F4E8C2.3060805@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <46F51877.3000703@hhs.nl> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hans de Goede wrote: >> >> Thanks for checking it out, feedback with regard to the typos much >> appreciated, English isn't my first language. > > Neither it is mine for that matter. > > "Your system currently is not capabable of hardware > accellerated 3D. Therefor $GAME cannot run." > > capable and accelerated is misspelled. > > "Usually the cause of this error is that there are no Free Software > drivers for your graphicscard, please contact your graphicscard > manufacturer and kindly ask them to provide Free Software support for > your card." > > You need space in between graphics and card. Also it might be better to > point to a wiki page. > Thanks I'll make a -2 release with these spelling issues corrected and import that (the review just got approved). About the wiki link, I thought about that, but where should it link to? Regards, Hans From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sat Sep 22 13:34:01 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 19:04:01 +0530 Subject: Notes on games spin In-Reply-To: <46F51877.3000703@hhs.nl> References: <46F2BCEC.3060102@fedoraproject.org> <46F2CD3C.5070504@hhs.nl> <46F2CFFF.8010100@fedoraproject.org> <46F36739.80509@hhs.nl> <46F36B70.4090600@fedoraproject.org> <46F36F29.1000006@hhs.nl> <1190393712.8146.62.camel@localhost> <46F4E356.1060903@hhs.nl> <46F4E3D4.1090005@fedoraproject.org> <46F4E58C.3050305@hhs.nl> <46F4E8C2.3060805@fedoraproject.org> <46F51877.3000703@hhs.nl> Message-ID: <46F519C9.5000507@fedoraproject.org> Hans de Goede wrote: > > Thanks I'll make a -2 release with these spelling issues corrected and > import that (the review just got approved). > > About the wiki link, I thought about that, but where should it link to? http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Games/Drivers? That's similar to what we planning to do with codec buddy FYI. Rahul From j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl Sat Sep 22 13:39:06 2007 From: j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl (Hans de Goede) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 15:39:06 +0200 Subject: Notes on games spin In-Reply-To: <46F519C9.5000507@fedoraproject.org> References: <46F2BCEC.3060102@fedoraproject.org> <46F2CD3C.5070504@hhs.nl> <46F2CFFF.8010100@fedoraproject.org> <46F36739.80509@hhs.nl> <46F36B70.4090600@fedoraproject.org> <46F36F29.1000006@hhs.nl> <1190393712.8146.62.camel@localhost> <46F4E356.1060903@hhs.nl> <46F4E3D4.1090005@fedoraproject.org> <46F4E58C.3050305@hhs.nl> <46F4E8C2.3060805@fedoraproject.org> <46F51877.3000703@hhs.nl> <46F519C9.5000507@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <46F51AFA.7010605@hhs.nl> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hans de Goede wrote: > >> >> Thanks I'll make a -2 release with these spelling issues corrected and >> import that (the review just got approved). >> >> About the wiki link, I thought about that, but where should it link to? > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Games/Drivers? That's similar to what we > planning to do with codec buddy FYI. > Hmm, I was kinda hoping there would something that already existed to point to, I'll just leave it linkless for now then. Regards, Hans From lemenkov at gmail.com Tue Sep 25 10:08:36 2007 From: lemenkov at gmail.com (Peter Lemenkov) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 14:08:36 +0400 Subject: FYI space shooter Astromenace now opensourced Message-ID: Hello All! Please take a look at this site: http://www.viewizard.com/ Not so long ago its main author opens up complete game sources and its resources under GPL3 license. (If someone can read russian he can read this message: http://www.linux.org.ru/jump-message.jsp?msgid=2142099 All sources can be found at the following address: http://www.viewizard.com/download.php?forceos=source The game looks very promising - maybe someone tries to package it? -- With best regards! From limb at jcomserv.net Tue Sep 25 11:03:33 2007 From: limb at jcomserv.net (Jon Ciesla) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 06:03:33 -0500 (CDT) Subject: FYI space shooter Astromenace now opensourced In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <25671.63.85.68.164.1190718213.squirrel@mail.jcomserv.net> > Hello All! > Please take a look at this site: > > http://www.viewizard.com/ > > Not so long ago its main author opens up complete game sources and its > resources under GPL3 license. (If someone can read russian he can read > this message: > http://www.linux.org.ru/jump-message.jsp?msgid=2142099 > > All sources can be found at the following address: > > http://www.viewizard.com/download.php?forceos=source > > The game looks very promising - maybe someone tries to package it? Hmm. Interesting. > -- > With best regards! > > _______________________________________________ > Fedora-games-list mailing list > Fedora-games-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-games-list > -- novus ordo absurdum From j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl Tue Sep 25 11:38:23 2007 From: j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl (Hans de Goede) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 13:38:23 +0200 Subject: FYI space shooter Astromenace now opensourced In-Reply-To: <25671.63.85.68.164.1190718213.squirrel@mail.jcomserv.net> References: <25671.63.85.68.164.1190718213.squirrel@mail.jcomserv.net> Message-ID: <46F8F32F.7020801@hhs.nl> Jon Ciesla wrote: >> Hello All! >> Please take a look at this site: >> >> http://www.viewizard.com/ >> >> Not so long ago its main author opens up complete game sources and its >> resources under GPL3 license. (If someone can read russian he can read >> this message: >> http://www.linux.org.ru/jump-message.jsp?msgid=2142099 >> >> All sources can be found at the following address: >> >> http://www.viewizard.com/download.php?forceos=source >> >> The game looks very promising - maybe someone tries to package it? > > Hmm. Interesting. > Indeed, looks very promising, will you package it or shall I? Regards, Hans From j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl Tue Sep 25 11:50:00 2007 From: j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl (Hans de Goede) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 13:50:00 +0200 Subject: Please modify your OpenGL using games to use opengl-games-utils Message-ID: <46F8F5E8.3000801@hhs.nl> Hi All, In preperation for the Games Live DVD, I've created a small bash script which resides in opengl-games-utils, which is meant to be used as a wrapper around OpenGL games. If DRI is available this wrapper does nothing, if it isn't it will show an error dialog, explaining about Free Software and 3D drivers and then exit. The idea here is that an error dialog is better then trying to click the quit menu option while the mouse is jumping from the right edge of the screen to the left edge (mouse navigation is anything but easy at 3 fps). This is esp. important for the Games Live DVD, as there people will not have those other drivers available. I've already added usage of this wrapper to all my games that are in the kickstart file for the Live DVD, and I will file bugs for this against a couple of the most highprofile games also in the kickstart, in the mean time everyone please check all your games for OpenGL usage and necessary add the wrapper. Adding the wrapper is _really_ easy: Add: "Requires: opengl-games-utils" Add to %install: "ln -s opengl-game-wrapper.sh $RPM_BUILD_ROOT%{_bindir}/%{name}-wrapper" Add "%{_bindir}/%{name}-wrapper" to files Change the .desktop file Exec entry from "%{name}" to "%{name}-wrapper" Done! This all assumes your main binary name == %{name}, otherwise adapt as necessary. If you already have a wrapper script for one reason or the other, you can incorperate the checkDriOk function directly into your wrapper, no need todo a wrapper wrapper, see vegastrike's vegastrike-wrapper.sh CVS file as example. Regards, Hans From limb at jcomserv.net Tue Sep 25 11:21:32 2007 From: limb at jcomserv.net (Jon Ciesla) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 06:21:32 -0500 (CDT) Subject: FYI space shooter Astromenace now opensourced In-Reply-To: <46F8F32F.7020801@hhs.nl> References: <25671.63.85.68.164.1190718213.squirrel@mail.jcomserv.net> <46F8F32F.7020801@hhs.nl> Message-ID: <34152.63.85.68.164.1190719292.squirrel@mail.jcomserv.net> > Jon Ciesla wrote: >>> Hello All! >>> Please take a look at this site: >>> >>> http://www.viewizard.com/ >>> >>> Not so long ago its main author opens up complete game sources and its >>> resources under GPL3 license. (If someone can read russian he can read >>> this message: >>> http://www.linux.org.ru/jump-message.jsp?msgid=2142099 >>> >>> All sources can be found at the following address: >>> >>> http://www.viewizard.com/download.php?forceos=source >>> >>> The game looks very promising - maybe someone tries to package it? >> >> Hmm. Interesting. >> > > Indeed, looks very promising, will you package it or shall I? Already on it. > Regards, > > Hans > -- novus ordo absurdum From j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl Tue Sep 25 12:18:46 2007 From: j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl (Hans de Goede) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 14:18:46 +0200 Subject: Please modify your OpenGL using games to use opengl-games-utils In-Reply-To: <1190722516.8399.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <46F8F5E8.3000801@hhs.nl> <1190722516.8399.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <46F8FCA6.6010600@hhs.nl> G?rard Milmeister wrote: > On Tue, 2007-09-25 at 13:50 +0200, Hans de Goede wrote: >> This is esp. important for the Games Live DVD, as there people will >> not have >> those other drivers available. > I wonder if it makes any sense to include OpenGL games in such a Games > Live DVD, that does not provide drivers. Yes it does, as OpenGL games will work fine on all integrated intel graphics (lots of systems) and on all pre r5xx radeons (quite a few systems). And who knows, with Fedora 9 we might have radeon 3d support over the whole line, and nouveau 3d support for nvidea cards, and yes then we still want to have this check, as there will always be some unsupported cards. Regards, Hans From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Sep 25 12:57:26 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 18:27:26 +0530 Subject: Please modify your OpenGL using games to use opengl-games-utils In-Reply-To: <46F8FCA6.6010600@hhs.nl> References: <46F8F5E8.3000801@hhs.nl> <1190722516.8399.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <46F8FCA6.6010600@hhs.nl> Message-ID: <46F905B6.1000008@fedoraproject.org> Hans de Goede wrote: > G?rard Milmeister wrote: >> On Tue, 2007-09-25 at 13:50 +0200, Hans de Goede wrote: >>> This is esp. important for the Games Live DVD, as there people will >>> not have those other drivers available. >> I wonder if it makes any sense to include OpenGL games in such a Games >> Live DVD, that does not provide drivers. > > Yes it does, as OpenGL games will work fine on all integrated intel > graphics > (lots of systems) Right. Last I heard this was over 50% of the Linux market and I have one of these and they play the OpenGL games in Fedora just fine. Some of them like Nexuiz, I had to turn off a few fancy effects to get good speed however. Rahul From abo at kth.se Tue Sep 25 13:44:44 2007 From: abo at kth.se (Alexander =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bostr=F6m?=) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 15:44:44 +0200 Subject: Please modify your OpenGL using games to use opengl-games-utils In-Reply-To: <46F8F5E8.3000801@hhs.nl> References: <46F8F5E8.3000801@hhs.nl> Message-ID: <1190727884.21155.32.camel@home.alexander.bostrom.net> On Tue, 2007-09-25 at 13:50 +0200, Hans de Goede wrote: > The idea here is that an error dialog is better then trying to click the quit > menu option while the mouse is jumping from the right edge of the screen to the > left edge (mouse navigation is anything but easy at 3 fps). Actually, I would consider that a bug in the application/game. If it's unable to render quickly enough to be usable it should either figure that out before putting the user in such a position or exit gracefully before the user gets frustrated and forces a hard reboot. A proper explanation of what happened is good, of course. /abo From mattdm at mattdm.org Tue Sep 25 15:23:15 2007 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 11:23:15 -0400 Subject: Please modify your OpenGL using games to use opengl-games-utils In-Reply-To: <1190727884.21155.32.camel@home.alexander.bostrom.net> References: <46F8F5E8.3000801@hhs.nl> <1190727884.21155.32.camel@home.alexander.bostrom.net> Message-ID: <20070925152315.GA31821@jadzia.bu.edu> On Tue, Sep 25, 2007 at 03:44:44PM +0200, Alexander Bostr?m wrote: > Actually, I would consider that a bug in the application/game. If it's Yeah, but since there's thousands of programs with that "bug", the wrapper is a nicer solution. -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> From che666 at gmail.com Tue Sep 25 17:55:49 2007 From: che666 at gmail.com (Rudolf Kastl) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 19:55:49 +0200 Subject: FYI space shooter Astromenace now opensourced In-Reply-To: <34152.63.85.68.164.1190719292.squirrel@mail.jcomserv.net> References: <25671.63.85.68.164.1190718213.squirrel@mail.jcomserv.net> <46F8F32F.7020801@hhs.nl> <34152.63.85.68.164.1190719292.squirrel@mail.jcomserv.net> Message-ID: 2007/9/25, Jon Ciesla : > > > Jon Ciesla wrote: > >>> Hello All! > >>> Please take a look at this site: > >>> > >>> http://www.viewizard.com/ > >>> > >>> Not so long ago its main author opens up complete game sources and its > >>> resources under GPL3 license. (If someone can read russian he can read > >>> this message: > >>> http://www.linux.org.ru/jump-message.jsp?msgid=2142099 > >>> > >>> All sources can be found at the following address: > >>> > >>> http://www.viewizard.com/download.php?forceos=source > >>> > >>> The game looks very promising - maybe someone tries to package it? > >> > >> Hmm. Interesting. > >> > > > > Indeed, looks very promising, will you package it or shall I? > > Already on it. > very nice! it is an awesome game and i had added it to the games sig ;) regards, Rudolf Kastl > > Regards, > > > > Hans > > > > > -- > novus ordo absurdum > > _______________________________________________ > Fedora-games-list mailing list > Fedora-games-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-games-list > From wayward4now at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 18:01:43 2007 From: wayward4now at gmail.com (Ric Moore) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 14:01:43 -0400 Subject: FYI space shooter Astromenace now opensourced In-Reply-To: References: <25671.63.85.68.164.1190718213.squirrel@mail.jcomserv.net> <46F8F32F.7020801@hhs.nl> <34152.63.85.68.164.1190719292.squirrel@mail.jcomserv.net> Message-ID: <1190829703.7330.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2007-09-25 at 19:55 +0200, Rudolf Kastl wrote: > 2007/9/25, Jon Ciesla : > > > > > Jon Ciesla wrote: > > >>> Hello All! > > >>> Please take a look at this site: > > >>> > > >>> http://www.viewizard.com/ > > >>> > > >>> Not so long ago its main author opens up complete game sources and its > > >>> resources under GPL3 license. (If someone can read russian he can read > > >>> this message: > > >>> http://www.linux.org.ru/jump-message.jsp?msgid=2142099 > > >>> > > >>> All sources can be found at the following address: > > >>> > > >>> http://www.viewizard.com/download.php?forceos=source > > >>> > > >>> The game looks very promising - maybe someone tries to package it? > > >> > > >> Hmm. Interesting. > > >> > > > > > > Indeed, looks very promising, will you package it or shall I? > > > > Already on it. > > > > very nice! it is an awesome game and i had added it to the games sig ;) Is BOSWARS to be included?? It could use some very simple docs in order to play the game. Even the keybindings don't reveal what is to be done in order to play it at all. Tecnoballz seems to have some mouse-control issues as well. Ric ================================================ My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say: "There are two Great Sins in the world... ..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity. Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad. Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/ http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar http://www.wayward4now.net <---down4now too ================================================ From j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl Thu Sep 27 13:11:58 2007 From: j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl (Hans de Goede) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 15:11:58 +0200 Subject: games spin In-Reply-To: <46F9FDE5.9020404@hhs.nl> References: <46F99F69.4040507@fedoraproject.org> <46F9FDE5.9020404@hhs.nl> Message-ID: <46FBAC1E.1050904@hhs.nl> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > Did you manage to find time to try out $subject? I wanted to push this > in time for test 3. > I've finally mangaed to find the time (and diskspace, empty dvd, etc) to give the kickstart file in the wiki a try. I had to add a "part / --size 7000" line to make the root partition big enough and fix a typo in a game name, other then that it works fine. And its "only" 3.2 Gb, so we've still got room for more games! So do we want to add some kde games, I personally like taxipilot and ksirk, as small simple games, but they will add 56 Mb worth of kdelibs. Anyways, I say send the .ks file as its now on the wiki to rel-eng for test3 inclusion! Regards, Hans From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Sep 27 13:42:42 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 19:12:42 +0530 Subject: games spin In-Reply-To: <46FBAC1E.1050904@hhs.nl> References: <46F99F69.4040507@fedoraproject.org> <46F9FDE5.9020404@hhs.nl> <46FBAC1E.1050904@hhs.nl> Message-ID: <46FBB352.8070200@fedoraproject.org> Hans de Goede wrote: > Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> Hi >> >> Did you manage to find time to try out $subject? I wanted to push this >> in time for test 3. >> > > I've finally mangaed to find the time (and diskspace, empty dvd, etc) to > give the kickstart file in the wiki a try. I had to add a "part / --size > 7000" line to make the root partition big enough and fix a typo in a > game name, other then that it works fine. And its "only" 3.2 Gb, so > we've still got room for more games! > > So do we want to add some kde games, I personally like taxipilot and > ksirk, as small simple games, but they will add 56 Mb worth of kdelibs. Sure. We can adjust some packages. I personally think first person shooters tend to attract a lot more attention. If we can do you did with Quake 3 with other games which have open engines but restricted content, we should be to accommodate a bit more games that otherwise can't be included. Btw, I wrote to American Army folks a few days back about the possibility of opening up code. A shot in the dark though let's see. > Anyways, I say send the .ks file as its now on the wiki to rel-eng for > test3 inclusion! Thanks for testing this. CC'ing Release Engineering. Kickstart file available at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Games/GamesLive. I have noted that Jeremy wanted us to inherit the desktop configuration which I will look into shortly. Rahul From j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl Thu Sep 27 13:39:46 2007 From: j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl (Hans de Goede) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 15:39:46 +0200 Subject: games spin In-Reply-To: <46FBB352.8070200@fedoraproject.org> References: <46F99F69.4040507@fedoraproject.org> <46F9FDE5.9020404@hhs.nl> <46FBAC1E.1050904@hhs.nl> <46FBB352.8070200@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <46FBB2A2.4040402@hhs.nl> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hans de Goede wrote: >> Rahul Sundaram wrote: >>> Hi >>> >>> Did you manage to find time to try out $subject? I wanted to push >>> this in time for test 3. >>> >> >> I've finally mangaed to find the time (and diskspace, empty dvd, etc) >> to give the kickstart file in the wiki a try. I had to add a "part / >> --size 7000" line to make the root partition big enough and fix a typo >> in a game name, other then that it works fine. And its "only" 3.2 Gb, >> so we've still got room for more games! >> >> So do we want to add some kde games, I personally like taxipilot and >> ksirk, as small simple games, but they will add 56 Mb worth of kdelibs. > > Sure. We can adjust some packages. I personally think first person > shooters tend to attract a lot more attention. If we can do you did with > Quake 3 with other games which have open engines but restricted content, > we should be to accommodate a bit more games that otherwise can't be > included. > Do we want to put autodownloader using games on the spin? Sofar I deliberately didn't put any on there. Regards, Hans From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Sep 27 13:58:49 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 19:28:49 +0530 Subject: games spin In-Reply-To: <46FBB2A2.4040402@hhs.nl> References: <46F99F69.4040507@fedoraproject.org> <46F9FDE5.9020404@hhs.nl> <46FBAC1E.1050904@hhs.nl> <46FBB352.8070200@fedoraproject.org> <46FBB2A2.4040402@hhs.nl> Message-ID: <46FBB719.8090301@fedoraproject.org> Hans de Goede wrote: > > Do we want to put autodownloader using games on the spin? Sofar I > deliberately didn't put any on there. Is there any reason not to? I can see some reasons why but I would like to hear your thoughts on that. One reason why I think we should do that is because it is useful to demo some of the nice games in Linux. As far as licensing is concerned, IMO gaming content restrictions can be a bit more than gaming engines due to the artistic values in the former though I definitely prefer less restrictions. In most conferences these days, they have bandwidth that pulling in game content just before the demo is not a problem and doing such a demo for a upcoming local FOSS conference is of one my main motivations behind working on this. Btw, I haven't include the regular GNOME games packages in the kickstart file. Do we want to do that? Rahul From limb at jcomserv.net Thu Sep 27 13:39:07 2007 From: limb at jcomserv.net (Jon Ciesla) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 08:39:07 -0500 (CDT) Subject: games spin In-Reply-To: <46FBB719.8090301@fedoraproject.org> References: <46F99F69.4040507@fedoraproject.org> <46F9FDE5.9020404@hhs.nl> <46FBAC1E.1050904@hhs.nl> <46FBB352.8070200@fedoraproject.org> <46FBB2A2.4040402@hhs.nl> <46FBB719.8090301@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <62565.63.85.68.164.1190900347.squirrel@mail.jcomserv.net> > Hans de Goede wrote: > >> >> Do we want to put autodownloader using games on the spin? Sofar I >> deliberately didn't put any on there. > > Is there any reason not to? I can see some reasons why but I would like > to hear your thoughts on that. One reason why I think we should do that > is because it is useful to demo some of the nice games in Linux. As far > as licensing is concerned, IMO gaming content restrictions can be a bit > more than gaming engines due to the artistic values in the former though > I definitely prefer less restrictions. > > In most conferences these days, they have bandwidth that pulling in game > content just before the demo is not a problem and doing such a demo for > a upcoming local FOSS conference is of one my main motivations behind > working on this. Btw, I haven't include the regular GNOME games packages > in the kickstart file. Do we want to do that? If I go to try out systems at Be$tBuy, and I want to play games to test the video cards, I can't play the autodownload games because there's not net connection. So why bother? > Rahul > > _______________________________________________ > Fedora-games-list mailing list > Fedora-games-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-games-list > -- novus ordo absurdum From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Sep 27 14:08:50 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 19:38:50 +0530 Subject: games spin In-Reply-To: <62565.63.85.68.164.1190900347.squirrel@mail.jcomserv.net> References: <46F99F69.4040507@fedoraproject.org> <46F9FDE5.9020404@hhs.nl> <46FBAC1E.1050904@hhs.nl> <46FBB352.8070200@fedoraproject.org> <46FBB2A2.4040402@hhs.nl> <46FBB719.8090301@fedoraproject.org> <62565.63.85.68.164.1190900347.squirrel@mail.jcomserv.net> Message-ID: <46FBB972.2080201@fedoraproject.org> Jon Ciesla wrote: >> Hans de Goede wrote: >> >>> Do we want to put autodownloader using games on the spin? Sofar I >>> deliberately didn't put any on there. >> Is there any reason not to? I can see some reasons why but I would like >> to hear your thoughts on that. One reason why I think we should do that >> is because it is useful to demo some of the nice games in Linux. As far >> as licensing is concerned, IMO gaming content restrictions can be a bit >> more than gaming engines due to the artistic values in the former though >> I definitely prefer less restrictions. >> >> In most conferences these days, they have bandwidth that pulling in game >> content just before the demo is not a problem and doing such a demo for >> a upcoming local FOSS conference is of one my main motivations behind >> working on this. Btw, I haven't include the regular GNOME games packages >> in the kickstart file. Do we want to do that? > > If I go to try out systems at Be$tBuy, and I want to play games to test > the video cards, I can't play the autodownload games because there's not > net connection. So why bother? We could bother because there are other instances where it is useful and I did give one example of that above. For testing the video card there are several other games available in the spin. Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Sep 28 14:38:27 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 20:08:27 +0530 Subject: Loki Games Message-ID: <46FD11E3.2050405@fedoraproject.org> Hi Tux games has announced that updated versions of the classic Loki games are available at http://lokifiles.tuxgames.com/ Maybe there is something useful here to dig out and package up. Rahul From lemenkov at gmail.com Fri Sep 28 14:51:47 2007 From: lemenkov at gmail.com (Peter Lemenkov) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 18:51:47 +0400 Subject: Loki Games In-Reply-To: <46FD11E3.2050405@fedoraproject.org> References: <46FD11E3.2050405@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: 2007/9/28, Rahul Sundaram : > Hi > > Tux games has announced that updated versions of the classic Loki games > are available at > > http://lokifiles.tuxgames.com/ Looks like not much opensourced stuff there :) > Maybe there is something useful here to dig out and package up. Let's wait until someone opens Heroes of Might & Magic III under GPLv3 :) -- With best regards! From mattdm at mattdm.org Fri Sep 28 17:46:59 2007 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 13:46:59 -0400 Subject: Loki Games In-Reply-To: <46FD11E3.2050405@fedoraproject.org> References: <46FD11E3.2050405@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <20070928174659.GA28282@jadzia.bu.edu> On Fri, Sep 28, 2007 at 08:08:27PM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Tux games has announced that updated versions of the classic Loki games > are available at > http://lokifiles.tuxgames.com/ > Maybe there is something useful here to dig out and package up. Doesn't look like they are new updates -- just the updates to the boxed versions that Loki released before they failed. -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> From j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl Fri Sep 28 18:11:05 2007 From: j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl (Hans de Goede) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 20:11:05 +0200 Subject: games spin In-Reply-To: <46FBB719.8090301@fedoraproject.org> References: <46F99F69.4040507@fedoraproject.org> <46F9FDE5.9020404@hhs.nl> <46FBAC1E.1050904@hhs.nl> <46FBB352.8070200@fedoraproject.org> <46FBB2A2.4040402@hhs.nl> <46FBB719.8090301@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <46FD43B9.3080806@hhs.nl> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hans de Goede wrote: > >> >> Do we want to put autodownloader using games on the spin? Sofar I >> deliberately didn't put any on there. > > Is there any reason not to? I can see some reasons why but I would like > to hear your thoughts on that. One reason why I think we should do that > is because it is useful to demo some of the nice games in Linux. As far > as licensing is concerned, IMO gaming content restrictions can be a bit > more than gaming engines due to the artistic values in the former though > I definitely prefer less restrictions. > > In most conferences these days, they have bandwidth that pulling in game > content just before the demo is not a problem and doing such a demo for > a upcoming local FOSS conference is of one my main motivations behind > working on this. Btw, I haven't include the regular GNOME games packages > in the kickstart file. Do we want to do that? > Erm, I just think it looks silly to ask people to download some 75 Mb's (to RAM!) after they have just downloaded 3 Gb worth of DVD. What do the others think? Wart? Chris(topher) ? Regards, Hans From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Sep 28 19:50:03 2007 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 01:20:03 +0530 Subject: games spin In-Reply-To: <46FD43B9.3080806@hhs.nl> References: <46F99F69.4040507@fedoraproject.org> <46F9FDE5.9020404@hhs.nl> <46FBAC1E.1050904@hhs.nl> <46FBB352.8070200@fedoraproject.org> <46FBB2A2.4040402@hhs.nl> <46FBB719.8090301@fedoraproject.org> <46FD43B9.3080806@hhs.nl> Message-ID: <46FD5AEB.20201@fedoraproject.org> Hans de Goede wrote: > Erm, > > I just think it looks silly to ask people to download some 75 Mb's (to > RAM!) after they have just downloaded 3 Gb worth of DVD. > > What do the others think? Wart? Chris(topher) ? It won't necessarily be in RAM. I could be installing them to a hard disk from the Live DVD and demo'ing that. Rahul From wart at kobold.org Sun Sep 30 20:18:57 2007 From: wart at kobold.org (Wart) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 13:18:57 -0700 Subject: games spin In-Reply-To: <46FD43B9.3080806@hhs.nl> References: <46F99F69.4040507@fedoraproject.org> <46F9FDE5.9020404@hhs.nl> <46FBAC1E.1050904@hhs.nl> <46FBB352.8070200@fedoraproject.org> <46FBB2A2.4040402@hhs.nl> <46FBB719.8090301@fedoraproject.org> <46FD43B9.3080806@hhs.nl> Message-ID: <470004B1.4060700@kobold.org> Hans de Goede wrote: > Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> Hans de Goede wrote: >> >>> >>> Do we want to put autodownloader using games on the spin? Sofar I >>> deliberately didn't put any on there. >> >> Is there any reason not to? I can see some reasons why but I would >> like to hear your thoughts on that. One reason why I think we should >> do that is because it is useful to demo some of the nice games in >> Linux. As far as licensing is concerned, IMO gaming content >> restrictions can be a bit more than gaming engines due to the artistic >> values in the former though I definitely prefer less restrictions. >> >> In most conferences these days, they have bandwidth that pulling in >> game content just before the demo is not a problem and doing such a >> demo for a upcoming local FOSS conference is of one my main >> motivations behind working on this. Btw, I haven't include the regular >> GNOME games packages in the kickstart file. Do we want to do that? >> > > Erm, > > I just think it looks silly to ask people to download some 75 Mb's (to > RAM!) after they have just downloaded 3 Gb worth of DVD. > > What do the others think? Wart? Chris(topher) ? Are the Live DVDs installable to the hard disk? If so, then I think they should definitely be included. Even if not, I think they should be included. Not everyone is going to be downloading the 3GB DVD image in order to get the DVD; people may be copying and/or sharing the DVD with friends, giving them away at conferences, etc. +1 for including autodownloader games. --Wart From Lam at Lam.pl Sun Sep 30 20:44:32 2007 From: Lam at Lam.pl (Leszek Matok) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 22:44:32 +0200 Subject: games spin In-Reply-To: <470004B1.4060700@kobold.org> References: <46F99F69.4040507@fedoraproject.org> <46F9FDE5.9020404@hhs.nl> <46FBAC1E.1050904@hhs.nl> <46FBB352.8070200@fedoraproject.org> <46FBB2A2.4040402@hhs.nl> <46FBB719.8090301@fedoraproject.org> <46FD43B9.3080806@hhs.nl> <470004B1.4060700@kobold.org> Message-ID: <20070930224432.70c9da95@pensja.lam.pl> Dnia 2007-09-30, o godz. 13:18:57 Wart napisa?(a): > +1 for including autodownloader games. Only if they wouldn't show up in the menu until I install the spin to my HDD. Lam -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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