From bruno at wolff.to Mon Jan 5 16:42:18 2009 From: bruno at wolff.to (Bruno Wolff III) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 10:42:18 -0600 Subject: Games Spin status In-Reply-To: <20081229151912.GA17692@wolff.to> References: <20081229151912.GA17692@wolff.to> Message-ID: <20090105164218.GA14939@wolff.to> I have finshed changing the partition layout on my home machine, so that will be less of a distraction. I have both F10 and F11 instances available for testing. I didn't get as far as I would have liked with the livecd-creator patches. I have a pretty good idea how I want to implement things and I just need to figure out a little bit of python in order to be able to fully test my approach (only on the i686 arch). This will probably be done in the next day or two. If it works, I'll ask to get the changes committed in rawhide. The squashfs image size is now going just over 4 GiB on both F10 and F11. So either we need to make some cuts or the livecd-creator changes need to be accepted and the Spins group OK using UDF for a DVD Spin that will still fit on a DVD. I am still seeing install errors for 3 games. 1 is fixed in current rawhide and will be removed from the list tonight. One is a post install error that probably isn't a problem other than the error message itself. The last is a preinstall script failure and my actually cause a problem. I am also still seeing an install error for the solar plugin. A new game "spring" is being reviewed. If this is a good game to add to the spin, someone should advocate for it once it is available in rawhide. There were some font dependency issues in rawhide for about a week, but I am pretty sure this has been fixed for all of the games in the spin now. I don't believe the feature wrangler has had a chance to deal with the games feature request yet. There is a dependency on the Spins SIG having a policy in place to use for F11. So I don't expect the Games Spin Feature to come up for approval at the next FESCO meeting (the 7th). I saw some hints that there may be some progress with the policy at Fudcon, so maybe it will get done in the next couple of weeks. I think there is still a reasonable chance to get the livecd-creator changes ready in time to allow for a games spin to be built for the alpha release without cutting anything out. But it is getting very close, as changing it right before the alpha release wouldn't be a good idea. From j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl Mon Jan 5 19:09:18 2009 From: j.w.r.degoede at hhs.nl (Hans de Goede) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 20:09:18 +0100 Subject: Games Spin status In-Reply-To: <20090105164218.GA14939@wolff.to> References: <20081229151912.GA17692@wolff.to> <20090105164218.GA14939@wolff.to> Message-ID: <49625ADE.4080806@hhs.nl> Bruno Wolff III wrote: > I have finshed changing the partition layout on my home machine, so that will > be less of a distraction. I have both F10 and F11 instances available for > testing. > I just wanted to say I think what you are doing is awesome and that I'm fully reading each and every status report (I don't want you to think the silence means no one cares). Keep up the good work and let me know if / when you need any testing (or other help)! Regards, Hans From wart at kobold.org Mon Jan 5 19:37:04 2009 From: wart at kobold.org (Michael Thomas) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 11:37:04 -0800 Subject: Games Spin status In-Reply-To: <20090105164218.GA14939@wolff.to> References: <20081229151912.GA17692@wolff.to> <20090105164218.GA14939@wolff.to> Message-ID: <49626160.2050503@kobold.org> Bruno Wolff III wrote: [...] > I am still seeing install errors for 3 games. 1 is fixed in current rawhide > and will be removed from the list tonight. One is a post install error > that probably isn't a problem other than the error message itself. The last > is a preinstall script failure and my actually cause a problem. Which games still give you install errors? Do you have BZ #'s for them? --Wart From bruno at wolff.to Mon Jan 5 21:19:55 2009 From: bruno at wolff.to (Bruno Wolff III) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 15:19:55 -0600 Subject: Games Spin status In-Reply-To: <49626160.2050503@kobold.org> References: <20081229151912.GA17692@wolff.to> <20090105164218.GA14939@wolff.to> <49626160.2050503@kobold.org> Message-ID: <20090105211955.GA8665@wolff.to> On Mon, Jan 05, 2009 at 11:37:04 -0800, Michael Thomas wrote: > Bruno Wolff III wrote: > [...] > > I am still seeing install errors for 3 games. 1 is fixed in current rawhide > > and will be removed from the list tonight. One is a post install error > > that probably isn't a problem other than the error message itself. The last > > is a preinstall script failure and my actually cause a problem. > > Which games still give you install errors? Do you have BZ #'s for them? nethack and nethack-vultures. The maintainer of nethack-vultures looked at the problem but has a problem with their key and doesn't know how to fix it and so can't do an update. My guess is that they didn't get a new key after the problem this past summer. nethack-vultures is also the package with the preinstall script issue, which I am worried might cause a real problem. (Don't worry about the entry for 'escape'. I am just leaving that until I verify the fix.) I have links to all of the bugzilla's on the feature page: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/GamesSpin From tibbs at math.uh.edu Tue Jan 6 02:49:06 2009 From: tibbs at math.uh.edu (Jason L Tibbitts III) Date: 05 Jan 2009 20:49:06 -0600 Subject: Games Spin status In-Reply-To: <20090105211955.GA8665@wolff.to> References: <20081229151912.GA17692@wolff.to> <20090105164218.GA14939@wolff.to> <49626160.2050503@kobold.org> <20090105211955.GA8665@wolff.to> Message-ID: >>>>> "BW" == Bruno Wolff writes: BW> nethack and nethack-vultures. The maintainer of nethack-vultures BW> looked at the problem but has a problem with their key and doesn't BW> know how to fix it and so can't do an update. Other folks can do that, you know. All someone needs to do is ask. - J< From bruno at wolff.to Tue Jan 6 05:11:53 2009 From: bruno at wolff.to (Bruno Wolff III) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 23:11:53 -0600 Subject: Games Spin status In-Reply-To: References: <20081229151912.GA17692@wolff.to> <20090105164218.GA14939@wolff.to> <49626160.2050503@kobold.org> <20090105211955.GA8665@wolff.to> Message-ID: <20090106051153.GA17722@wolff.to> On Mon, Jan 05, 2009 at 20:49:06 -0600, Jason L Tibbitts III wrote: > >>>>> "BW" == Bruno Wolff writes: > > BW> nethack and nethack-vultures. The maintainer of nethack-vultures > BW> looked at the problem but has a problem with their key and doesn't > BW> know how to fix it and so can't do an update. > > Other folks can do that, you know. All someone needs to do is ask. Consider this an official asking. From tibbs at math.uh.edu Tue Jan 6 13:01:15 2009 From: tibbs at math.uh.edu (Jason L Tibbitts III) Date: 06 Jan 2009 07:01:15 -0600 Subject: Games Spin status In-Reply-To: <20090106051153.GA17722@wolff.to> References: <20081229151912.GA17692@wolff.to> <20090105164218.GA14939@wolff.to> <49626160.2050503@kobold.org> <20090105211955.GA8665@wolff.to> <20090106051153.GA17722@wolff.to> Message-ID: >>>>> "BW" == Bruno Wolff writes: BW> Consider this an official asking. OK, maybe "all you need to do is ask and provide some details". I mean, I'd help if I could, but I don't have a clue what needs to be done. - J< From bruno at wolff.to Tue Jan 6 16:09:01 2009 From: bruno at wolff.to (Bruno Wolff III) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 10:09:01 -0600 Subject: Games Spin status In-Reply-To: References: <20081229151912.GA17692@wolff.to> <20090105164218.GA14939@wolff.to> <49626160.2050503@kobold.org> <20090105211955.GA8665@wolff.to> <20090106051153.GA17722@wolff.to> Message-ID: <20090106160901.GA10552@wolff.to> On Tue, Jan 06, 2009 at 07:01:15 -0600, Jason L Tibbitts III wrote: > >>>>> "BW" == Bruno Wolff writes: > > BW> Consider this an official asking. > > OK, maybe "all you need to do is ask and provide some details". I > mean, I'd help if I could, but I don't have a clue what needs to be > done. Probably the best thing would be to help the maintainer update their key. (I think that is what is causing them not be able to make the changes.) Otherwise if you can apply the changes that would at least solve my problem. The bug (475919) has the changes needed for the spec file in it. From bruno at wolff.to Wed Jan 7 15:28:36 2009 From: bruno at wolff.to (Bruno Wolff III) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 09:28:36 -0600 Subject: Games Spin status In-Reply-To: <20090105164218.GA14939@wolff.to> References: <20081229151912.GA17692@wolff.to> <20090105164218.GA14939@wolff.to> Message-ID: <20090107152836.GA31604@wolff.to> I have a patch to livecd-creator that switches to using udf when needed, but otherwise uses iso9660. The version posted to the RFE bug applies to F10 cleanly, but not F11. But if you play with it on F11 it's clear what to change. I have asked to get this applied to F11, but I don't know if that will happen as I didn't get feedback on the approach yet, so the patch may need to be reworked. I haven't asked for my changes to fedora-livedvd-games.ks to be applied yet, because they won't work without the updates to livecd-creator. If the change to livecd-creator is done I'll open a bug against spin-kickstarts to get that changed. Currently there is a dependency problem with poker2d in F11 that stops the livecd-creator run. Since the maintainer should be getting daily messages about the problem, I wasn't planning on filing a bug about it. I have some more testing for my proposed changes to livecd-creator to do and should get some coverage of another important case tonight. From bruno at wolff.to Wed Jan 7 22:41:08 2009 From: bruno at wolff.to (Bruno Wolff III) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 16:41:08 -0600 Subject: Games Spin Update Message-ID: <20090107224108.GA1710@wolff.to> I have been bugging people to try to get info on what I need to do to get a Games Spin published as part of the alpha release. If necessary I'll temporarily drop a couple of games in order to have a working kickstart file for the alpha release. (Either to keep broken packages, such as poker2d, out of the kickstart file or to get below the 4 GiB limit if my livecd-creator patch isn't in rawhide in time for the alpha release.) I was able to test the livecd-creator patch on a spin that was under the 4 GiB limit and it also seemed to work. So I am pretty much just waiting for review there. I ended up filing a bug for poker2d about the dependency issue triggered by the upgrade of poker-network. I plan on doing a change request bug for the kickstart file tonight. Things are getting close enough that I want to start things moving their. The current kickstart file is broken in F11 anyway as it doesn't pull in a display manager since it is based of the base spin instead of the desktop spin. It would be nice if someone could work on either the nethack-vultures or poker2d bugs. The nethack-vultures one is easy and pretty much any maintainer could take care of it. As usual, pretty much everything I have been putting in these status reports is also being tracked (with links to all of the related bugzilla entries) on the proposed feature page at: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/GamesSpin From bruno at wolff.to Fri Jan 9 06:25:57 2009 From: bruno at wolff.to (Bruno Wolff III) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 00:25:57 -0600 Subject: Games Spin Update - Looking good for alpha release Message-ID: <20090109062557.GA26471@wolff.to> poker2d got updated. Jon Ciesla helped get the spec file changes in for nethack-vultures. Jeremy Katz applied the livecd-creator patch to allow for 4+ GiB squashfs images. This isn't in rawhide yet, but Jeremy has said if it isn't by the alpha they can use the git version to do the alpha spin. There will probably be some discussion at FudCon about the Spin process and the Games Spin in particular. Approval still isn't guaranteed. I plan to attend the January 16th FESCO meeting either for a normal approval request if things fall into place for the Spin process or to ask for a temporary exception to get a games spin made for the alpha release while the process requirements are being figured out. Those are all of the issues that were left blocking the games spin for the alpha release. So while it isn't for sure yet, it is looking pretty good. There are a couple of other things that produce error messages during the livecd-creator run, but I don't think any of them actually result in a broken spin. From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Jan 9 06:28:57 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 11:58:57 +0530 Subject: Games Spin Update - Looking good for alpha release In-Reply-To: <20090109062557.GA26471@wolff.to> References: <20090109062557.GA26471@wolff.to> Message-ID: <4966EEA9.7070504@fedoraproject.org> Bruno Wolff III wrote: [Congrats on moving this, quite a bit forward] > > There are a couple of other things that produce error messages during the > livecd-creator run, but I don't think any of them actually result in a > broken spin. Doing a compose, you will often run into bugs in post-install scripts with rpm packages. It would be good if you can report and keep track of them somewhere. Some of them, break subtly which is even worse than just failing. Rahul From bruno at wolff.to Fri Jan 9 07:09:08 2009 From: bruno at wolff.to (Bruno Wolff III) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 01:09:08 -0600 Subject: Games Spin Update - Looking good for alpha release In-Reply-To: <4966EEA9.7070504@fedoraproject.org> References: <20090109062557.GA26471@wolff.to> <4966EEA9.7070504@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <20090109070908.GA8741@wolff.to> On Fri, Jan 09, 2009 at 11:58:57 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Bruno Wolff III wrote: > > [Congrats on moving this, quite a bit forward] > >> >> There are a couple of other things that produce error messages during the >> livecd-creator run, but I don't think any of them actually result in a >> broken spin. > > Doing a compose, you will often run into bugs in post-install scripts > with rpm packages. It would be good if you can report and keep track of > them somewhere. Some of them, break subtly which is even worse than just > failing. I have been. I filed a file bugzilla's on all but one that was just a warning message relating to gnu info I think. Most have been fixed. There is still one for nethack and another for the plymouth solaris plugin. The remaining bugs (including a couple that are fixed, but I haven't personally verified yet) are all linked to from the games spin feature page in the current status section. I removed links for the bugs that were fixed and verified by me. The nethack one is updating the icon cache before gtk2 has been installed. I don't think that is likely. I forget exactly what I thought was happening with the solaris plugin, but it also didn't seem likely to be causing a real problem. Though getting rid of the error messages would be nice. I was concerned when I first saw them and I expect other people will be as well. From bruno at wolff.to Fri Jan 9 19:39:03 2009 From: bruno at wolff.to (Bruno Wolff III) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 13:39:03 -0600 Subject: Games Spin Update - Looking good for alpha release In-Reply-To: <20090109062557.GA26471@wolff.to> References: <20090109062557.GA26471@wolff.to> Message-ID: <20090109193903.GA2464@wolff.to> Feedback after the Spins meeting at Fudcon was positive. One important consideration came up that I had not previously considered. Vfat files are limited to less than 4 GiB. Considering the audience for the published games spin, I think we want to keep the iso image under 4 GiB so that people using vfat file systems can use the games spin iso. I hope to be able to get under by cutting some desktop stuff. I'll be looking at this this weekend. I still want the livecd-creator change for my own stuff, so I'll continue to test that in parallel. For now I'll leave the greater than 4 GiB related stuff on the feature as it will probably be at least mentioned at the FESCO meeting. But after the FESCO meeting I'll drop it if the targetted size is going to be 4 GiB. From seg at haxxed.com Sat Jan 10 00:52:31 2009 From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 18:52:31 -0600 Subject: Games Spin Update - Looking good for alpha release In-Reply-To: <20090109193903.GA2464@wolff.to> References: <20090109062557.GA26471@wolff.to> <20090109193903.GA2464@wolff.to> Message-ID: <1218b5bc0901091652j253e6a58j7af50b24626e1ca2@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jan 9, 2009 at 1:39 PM, Bruno Wolff III wrote: > One important consideration came up that I had not previously considered. Vfat > files are limited to less than 4 GiB. Considering the audience for the > published games spin, I think we want to keep the iso image under 4 GiB so > that people using vfat file systems can use the games spin iso. Are we really that worried about people still using Windows 9x? Anyone using XP or newer ought to be using NTFS by now. Though FAT is still common on removable media. Are we looking to boot the image from an 8gb+ USB stick? From daemonlee at gmail.com Sat Jan 10 02:01:37 2009 From: daemonlee at gmail.com (Steven Lee) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 18:01:37 -0800 Subject: Games Spin Update - Looking good for alpha release In-Reply-To: <1218b5bc0901091652j253e6a58j7af50b24626e1ca2@mail.gmail.com> References: <20090109062557.GA26471@wolff.to> <20090109193903.GA2464@wolff.to> <1218b5bc0901091652j253e6a58j7af50b24626e1ca2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49680181.70800@gmail.com> Callum Lerwick wrote: > On Fri, Jan 9, 2009 at 1:39 PM, Bruno Wolff III wrote: > >> One important consideration came up that I had not previously considered. Vfat >> files are limited to less than 4 GiB. Considering the audience for the >> published games spin, I think we want to keep the iso image under 4 GiB so >> that people using vfat file systems can use the games spin iso. >> > > Are we really that worried about people still using Windows 9x? Anyone > using XP or newer ought to be using NTFS by now. > > Though FAT is still common on removable media. Are we looking to boot > the image from an 8gb+ USB stick? > I think that is very plausible, or at least an external hard drive for portability. We should always plan for something to be used in an way not originally envisioned. -Steven From bruno at wolff.to Sat Jan 10 04:22:02 2009 From: bruno at wolff.to (Bruno Wolff III) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 22:22:02 -0600 Subject: Games Spin Update - Looking good for alpha release In-Reply-To: <1218b5bc0901091652j253e6a58j7af50b24626e1ca2@mail.gmail.com> References: <20090109062557.GA26471@wolff.to> <20090109193903.GA2464@wolff.to> <1218b5bc0901091652j253e6a58j7af50b24626e1ca2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090110042202.GA17047@wolff.to> On Fri, Jan 09, 2009 at 18:52:31 -0600, Callum Lerwick wrote: > On Fri, Jan 9, 2009 at 1:39 PM, Bruno Wolff III wrote: > > One important consideration came up that I had not previously considered. Vfat > > files are limited to less than 4 GiB. Considering the audience for the > > published games spin, I think we want to keep the iso image under 4 GiB so > > that people using vfat file systems can use the games spin iso. > > Are we really that worried about people still using Windows 9x? Anyone > using XP or newer ought to be using NTFS by now. > > Though FAT is still common on removable media. Are we looking to boot > the image from an 8gb+ USB stick? If it isn't going to be a problem in general, I'd rather see it keep what is there now. I thought that vfat use might be in wider use, but I don't really follow the Windows world too closely. Since this is supposed to be an outreach spin, I don't want to do something that is going to cause problems with that. Since the idea is to burn the image to DVD, I don't think whether or not it is a problem on usb drives is a big deal. I would expect people that want to use it on a usb drive, will use the live usb tool. And for carting around, you might as well burn it to a DVD as that's what it is supposed to be used for. When people upgraded to XP, did their file systems get converted from vfat to ntfs in the process? Is there likely to be many people whose main file system is vfat? Based on this feedback, I am now thinking that using the current size for the alpha and getting feedback is probably better. I think I will need to pursue both options in the short run and get some more input from the spins sig. From bruno at wolff.to Sun Jan 11 04:59:27 2009 From: bruno at wolff.to (Bruno Wolff III) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 22:59:27 -0600 Subject: Games Spin Update Message-ID: <20090111045927.GA23394@wolff.to> The rawhide update last night was pretty good and I was able to retest the dependencies bugs. The good news there is that we are down to just nethack (not nethack-vultures which got fixed). The bad news is that I looked at the scripts for nethack, and they involve setting up links to font directories. So this is a bug that appears to have more impact than just an error message and would be nice to get fixed. X in F11 hasn't been working for me for about a week now. I don't really need it for the build testing, but for making sure the build does more than boot, I could use a graphical display. (Actually X has been broken a lot longer than that, but I apply a patch locally to force the ati driver to acknowledge the existance of the LCD which doesn't do EDID correctly. Normally that gets me by, but now something else is broken.) I updated the kickstart file in the git repository and it should make its way into rawhide soon. The livecd-tools update is also in the git repository and rel-eng might use that copy to do the spin. (Also note the F10 version of livecd-tools has a higher NVR than the F11 version.) The 4 GiB stuff is still up in the air. I'd like to try > 4 GiB for the alpha and if there are a lot of problems switch back for the beta. I'll need to get a backup kickstart file ready in case the Spins SIG says stay under 4 GiB. From bruno at wolff.to Tue Jan 20 04:06:12 2009 From: bruno at wolff.to (Bruno Wolff III) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 22:06:12 -0600 Subject: Games Spin Status Message-ID: <20090120040612.GA3842@wolff.to> The Spin SIG meeting was held today and this has a couple of impacts on the games spin. For the alpha release it was decided to keep the iso's under 4 GiB. This will be looked at again before the beta. I took a look at package sizes and I either needed to get rid of one large game or many other non-game packages. And at this point removing one game seems like a better option. The game I have selected to remove for the alpha (pending my spin compose test coming in under 4 GiB) is openarena. Of the large games it seemed to be the one that was similar to other games and hence most expendable. Spins will now not be features. I need to create a spin page with a slightly different format and move over all of my data from the feature page. This won't be done tonight, but I will send another update when it is complete that includes the new URL. I plan to continue testing livecd-creator patches to allow larger spins to make sure this feature is in place and provides an option for larger spins. I am still having problems with X on F11, which limits the amount of testing I can do. From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Jan 20 08:39:12 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 14:09:12 +0530 Subject: Games Spin Status In-Reply-To: <20090120040612.GA3842@wolff.to> References: <20090120040612.GA3842@wolff.to> Message-ID: <49758DB0.2070900@fedoraproject.org> Bruno Wolff III wrote: > The Spin SIG meeting was held today and this has a couple of impacts on > the games spin. > > For the alpha release it was decided to keep the iso's under 4 GiB. This > will be looked at again before the beta. I took a look at package sizes > and I either needed to get rid of one large game or many other non-game > packages. And at this point removing one game seems like a better option. > The game I have selected to remove for the alpha (pending my spin compose > test coming in under 4 GiB) is openarena. Of the large games it seemed > to be the one that was similar to other games and hence most expendable. Openarena is one of the few truly free and open source 3D shooters on relatively recent engine. It is also quite popular. Which ones are you comparing it too? Rahul From guido.rugo at gmail.com Tue Jan 20 12:21:24 2009 From: guido.rugo at gmail.com (Guido) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 10:21:24 -0200 Subject: Games Spin Status In-Reply-To: <49758DB0.2070900@fedoraproject.org> References: <20090120040612.GA3842@wolff.to> <49758DB0.2070900@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <3e582a840901200421x7d034d80t8f6eb9833c03f253@mail.gmail.com> Battle of Wesnoth FlightGear Hedgewar Tremulous Alien Arena You can see some games in DJL. Is an app about news and release of lots linux games. 2009/1/20, Rahul Sundaram : > Bruno Wolff III wrote: >> The Spin SIG meeting was held today and this has a couple of impacts on >> the games spin. >> >> For the alpha release it was decided to keep the iso's under 4 GiB. This >> will be looked at again before the beta. I took a look at package sizes >> and I either needed to get rid of one large game or many other non-game >> packages. And at this point removing one game seems like a better option. >> The game I have selected to remove for the alpha (pending my spin compose >> test coming in under 4 GiB) is openarena. Of the large games it seemed >> to be the one that was similar to other games and hence most expendable. > > Openarena is one of the few truly free and open source 3D shooters on > relatively recent engine. It is also quite popular. Which ones are you > comparing it too? > > Rahul > > _______________________________________________ > Fedora-games-list mailing list > Fedora-games-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-games-list > From kanarip at kanarip.com Tue Jan 20 09:28:58 2009 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 10:28:58 +0100 Subject: Games Spin Status In-Reply-To: <20090120040612.GA3842@wolff.to> References: <20090120040612.GA3842@wolff.to> Message-ID: <4975995A.2080905@kanarip.com> Bruno Wolff III wrote: > The Spin SIG meeting was held today and this has a couple of impacts on > the games spin. > > For the alpha release it was decided to keep the iso's under 4 GiB. This > will be looked at again before the beta. I took a look at package sizes > and I either needed to get rid of one large game or many other non-game > packages. And at this point removing one game seems like a better option. > The game I have selected to remove for the alpha (pending my spin compose > test coming in under 4 GiB) is openarena. Of the large games it seemed > to be the one that was similar to other games and hence most expendable. > A new version of livecd-tools was built yesterday, 021-1, and it has the patch for supporting UDF in it. > Spins will now not be features. I need to create a spin page with a slightly > different format and move over all of my data from the feature page. This > won't be done tonight, but I will send another update when it is complete > that includes the new URL. > > I plan to continue testing livecd-creator patches to allow larger spins > to make sure this feature is in place and provides an option for larger > spins. > > I am still having problems with X on F11, which limits the amount of testing > I can do. > (side-note) This can be a dependency for the Games Spin, as obviously most games need X to work properly. (/side-note) Kind regards, Jeroen van Meeuwen From bruno at wolff.to Tue Jan 20 15:20:54 2009 From: bruno at wolff.to (Bruno Wolff III) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 09:20:54 -0600 Subject: Games Spin Status In-Reply-To: <49758DB0.2070900@fedoraproject.org> References: <20090120040612.GA3842@wolff.to> <49758DB0.2070900@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <20090120152054.GA30098@wolff.to> On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 14:09:12 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Bruno Wolff III wrote: >> The Spin SIG meeting was held today and this has a couple of impacts on >> the games spin. >> >> For the alpha release it was decided to keep the iso's under 4 GiB. This >> will be looked at again before the beta. I took a look at package sizes >> and I either needed to get rid of one large game or many other non-game >> packages. And at this point removing one game seems like a better option. >> The game I have selected to remove for the alpha (pending my spin compose >> test coming in under 4 GiB) is openarena. Of the large games it seemed >> to be the one that was similar to other games and hence most expendable. > > Openarena is one of the few truly free and open source 3D shooters on > relatively recent engine. It is also quite popular. Which ones are you > comparing it too? I needed to drop about 160 MB from the iso. I got a list of the installed rpms and sorted them by size. Everything above about 10 or 20 MB was a game or a dependency of a game. Trying to remove stuff that wasn't a game but pulled in as part of the desktop was going to require removing at least 10 packages and whatever depended on them. Most likely it would have ended up being many smaller packages. Of the top games in size it appeared to be less unique than some others. I also had the option to remove several smaller games, but that also seemed like a bad option. I don't have the sorted package list handy, but I'll look at sending out the top part of the list so people can comment on it. I think a better approach is convincing the Spins SIG that the benefit of being able to go to 4.7 GB as more important than the cost of going over 4 GiB. From bruno at wolff.to Tue Jan 20 15:28:26 2009 From: bruno at wolff.to (Bruno Wolff III) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 09:28:26 -0600 Subject: Games Spin Status In-Reply-To: <4975995A.2080905@kanarip.com> References: <20090120040612.GA3842@wolff.to> <4975995A.2080905@kanarip.com> Message-ID: <20090120152826.GB30098@wolff.to> On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 10:28:58 +0100, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > Bruno Wolff III wrote: > A new version of livecd-tools was built yesterday, 021-1, and it has the > patch for supporting UDF in it. Thanks, I look for it. I have been testing stuff in the git repo, but koji is easier. >> I am still having problems with X on F11, which limits the amount of testing >> I can do. >> > > This can be a dependency for the Games Spin, as obviously most games > need X to work properly. This is probably somewhat specific to my hardware otherwise there would be a lot of screaming. Airlie is pretty busy right now with his new kid, though he did do an F10 kernel build with graphics related changes last night, and old ATI hardware isn't his highest priority. Mostly I have been working on testing the builds and getting bugs that block building and that affect games reported. It would be nice to have people here try out the alpha spin when it is ready and file bugs about problems. You can cc me in the bugs to make it easier for me to track things. I'll do some limited jaw boning for ones that aren't getting fixed and appear to be important. From kanarip at kanarip.com Wed Jan 21 00:16:46 2009 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 01:16:46 +0100 Subject: Games Spin Status In-Reply-To: <20090120152054.GA30098@wolff.to> References: <20090120040612.GA3842@wolff.to> <49758DB0.2070900@fedoraproject.org> <20090120152054.GA30098@wolff.to> Message-ID: <4976696E.6050604@kanarip.com> Bruno Wolff III wrote: > I needed to drop about 160 MB from the iso. I got a list of the installed > rpms and sorted them by size. Everything above about 10 or 20 MB was a > game or a dependency of a game. Trying to remove stuff that wasn't a game > but pulled in as part of the desktop was going to require removing at least > 10 packages and whatever depended on them. Most likely it would have ended > up being many smaller packages. Of the top games in size it appeared to > be less unique than some others. I also had the option to remove several > smaller games, but that also seemed like a bad option. > Not sure if it helps, but revisor allows for reporting the sizes of the packages used; --report-sizes Bear in mind though livecd-tools is used for the official compose, and naturally there's a difference in how revisor or livecd-tools composes the media. -Jeroen From bruno at wolff.to Wed Jan 21 14:10:38 2009 From: bruno at wolff.to (Bruno Wolff III) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 08:10:38 -0600 Subject: Games Spin Status In-Reply-To: <20090120040612.GA3842@wolff.to> References: <20090120040612.GA3842@wolff.to> Message-ID: <20090121141038.GA14569@wolff.to> Below is the top 100 packages based on rpm size. The number is the size in 1024 byte blocks. PersonalCopy-Lite-patches was a dependency of a lot of stuff including some games. If the restriction holds for the beta I'll look more carefully at what gets added using the desktop ks as a base over the base ks. That would give me a better idea of what was removable. But I might still end up pulling one of the larger games. 368736 nexuiz-data-2.4.2-1.fc10.noarch.rpm 274100 openarena-0.7.7-2.fc10.noarch.rpm 273088 alienarena-data-20081016-1.fc10.noarch.rpm 245184 FlightGear-data-1.9.0-1.fc11.noarch.rpm 142912 wesnoth-data-1.4.7-1.fc11.noarch.rpm 124444 freedroidrpg-0.11.1-2.fc11.i386.rpm 101248 fillets-ng-data-0.8.0-2.noarch.rpm 99280 tremulous-data-1.1.0-4.fc8.noarch.rpm 75276 astromenace-data-1.2-1.fc8.noarch.rpm 67840 beneath-a-steel-sky-cd-0.0372-2.fc8.noarch.rpm 63844 glest-data-3.1.2-1.fc9.noarch.rpm 62884 egoboo-data-2.7.5-3.fc11.noarch.rpm 62380 boswars-2.5-1.fc9.i386.rpm 61816 widelands-0-0.13.Build13.fc11.i386.rpm 59192 supertuxkart-0.5-2.fc10.i386.rpm 58712 scorched3d-41.3-4.fc11.i386.rpm 55920 torcs-data-tracks-road-1.3.0-2.noarch.rpm 50272 wormux-data-0.8.2-3.fc11.i386.rpm 49700 openlierox-0.57-0.11.beta8.fc11.i386.rpm 49656 gcompris-8.4.8-2.fc11.i386.rpm 45752 PersonalCopy-Lite-patches-4.1-3.fc9.noarch.rpm 44124 warzone2100-2.1.0-1.fc11.i386.rpm 44004 supertux-0.3.1-4.fc11.i386.rpm 38640 nethack-vultures-2.1.0-15.fc11.i386.rpm 38268 lincity-ng-data-1.97-0.3.beta.fc11.i386.rpm 36264 flight-of-the-amazon-queen-cd-1.0-2.fc8.noarch.rpm 35588 blobAndConquer-1.0-1.fc10.i386.rpm 33220 nogravity-data-2.00-4.fc9.noarch.rpm 32920 kdegames-4.1.96-1.fc11.i386.rpm 32908 hedgewars-0.9.8-2.fc11.i386.rpm 32428 java-1.6.0-openjdk-1.6.0.0-8.b14.fc11.i386.rpm 32368 stellarium-0.10.0-3.fc11.i386.rpm 30508 OpenSceneGraph-libs-2.6.0-1.fc10.i386.rpm 29888 tuxpaint-stamps-2008.06.30-1.fc10.noarch.rpm 29344 asc-2.2.0.0-2.fc11.i386.rpm 27852 maniadrive-music-1.0-2.fc8.noarch.rpm 27816 extremetuxracer-0.4-1.fc9.i386.rpm 23692 celestia-1.5.0-1.fc9.i386.rpm 22548 glibc-common-2.9.90-2.i386.rpm 21864 raidem-music-1.0-2.fc8.noarch.rpm 20836 xmoto-0.5.0-3.fc11.i386.rpm 20268 kernel-2.6.29-0.41.rc2.fc11.i686.rpm 20212 trackballs-music-1.2-4.fc8.noarch.rpm 20040 frozen-bubble-2.1.0-9.fc10.i386.rpm 19532 foomatic-4.0.0-1.fc11.i386.rpm 19420 auriferous-1.0.1-5.fc9.i386.rpm 19296 libgcj-4.3.2-7.i386.rpm 18712 Ri-li-2.0.1-3.fc9.i386.rpm 18180 torcs-data-1.3.0-2.noarch.rpm 17816 kdelibs3-3.5.10-3.fc11.i386.rpm 16824 magicor-1.1-2.fc11.noarch.rpm 16156 maniadrive-data-1.2-2.fc8.noarch.rpm 16088 ultimatestunts-0.7.5-2.fc11.i386.rpm 15412 gimp-2.6.4-3.fc11.i386.rpm 15056 oxygen-icon-theme-4.1.96-2.fc11.noarch.rpm 14740 gnubg-0.9.0.1-5.fc11.i386.rpm 14344 neverball-1.4.0-14.fc11.i386.rpm 14144 perl-5.10.0-53.fc11.i386.rpm 13608 kdelibs-4.1.96-9.fc11.i386.rpm 13448 libgweather-2.25.4-1.fc11.i386.rpm 12880 solar-backgrounds-0.92.0-1.fc10.noarch.rpm 12496 qt-x11-4.4.3-11.fc11.i386.rpm 12368 evolution-2.25.4-1.fc11.i386.rpm 11920 bzflag-2.0.12-4.fc11.i386.rpm 11768 pingus-0.7.2-4.fc11.i386.rpm 11664 wxPython-2.8.9.1-2.fc11.i386.rpm 11540 netpanzer-0.8.2-4.fc11.i386.rpm 11168 samba-common-3.2.5-0.23.fc11.i386.rpm 10640 glob2-0.9.3-2.fc11.i386.rpm 10552 xulrunner-1.9.1-0.6.beta2.fc11.i386.rpm 10532 asc-music-1.0-2.fc8.noarch.rpm 10428 powermanga-0.90-4.i386.rpm 10368 cjkunifonts-uming-0.2.20080216.1-13.fc11.noarch.rpm 9860 xblast-data-2.10.0-4.fc11.noarch.rpm 9612 torcs-data-cars-extra-1.3.0-2.noarch.rpm 9600 freeciv-2.1.8-1.fc11.i386.rpm 9580 gnome-backgrounds-2.24.0-2.fc10.noarch.rpm 9412 enigma-1.01-7.1.i386.rpm 9356 amoebax-0.2.0-3.fc9.i386.rpm 8536 wordwarvi-0.24-1.fc11.i386.rpm 8148 tuxpaint-0.9.20-2.fc11.i386.rpm 8100 freecol-0.7.4-4.fc11.noarch.rpm 8072 xerces-j2-2.7.1-10.2.fc10.i386.rpm 7552 libpurple-2.5.4-1.fc11.i386.rpm 7436 libabiword-2.6.6-9.fc11.i386.rpm 7220 freedoom-0.6.2-2.fc11.noarch.rpm 6992 tuxtype2-1.5.17-1.fc10.i386.rpm 6840 rocksndiamonds-3.2.6.0-1.fc11.i386.rpm 6816 libicu-4.0.1-1.fc11.i386.rpm 6796 trackballs-1.1.4-7.fc11.i386.rpm 6744 ghostscript-8.63-4.fc10.i386.rpm 6600 alienblaster-1.1.0-4.fc9.i386.rpm 6320 blobwars-1.09b2-2.fc10.i386.rpm 6268 gnome-applets-2.25.3-3.fc11.i386.rpm 5960 gnome-utils-2.25.2-1.fc11.i386.rpm 5940 worminator-data-3.0R2.1-4.fc8.noarch.rpm 5840 glibc-2.9.90-2.i686.rpm 5832 nautilus-2.25.2-6.fc11.i386.rpm 5820 python-2.6-4.fc11.i386.rpm 5796 anaconda-11.5.0.9-1.i386.rpm From wart at kobold.org Thu Jan 22 03:34:48 2009 From: wart at kobold.org (Wart) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 19:34:48 -0800 Subject: Games Spin Status In-Reply-To: <20090121141038.GA14569@wolff.to> References: <20090120040612.GA3842@wolff.to> <20090121141038.GA14569@wolff.to> Message-ID: <4977E958.8040806@kobold.org> Bruno Wolff III wrote: > Below is the top 100 packages based on rpm size. The number is the size > in 1024 byte blocks. PersonalCopy-Lite-patches was a dependency of a lot > of stuff including some games. > > If the restriction holds for the beta I'll look more carefully at what > gets added using the desktop ks as a base over the base ks. That would > give me a better idea of what was removable. But I might still end up > pulling one of the larger games. > > 27852 maniadrive-music-1.0-2.fc8.noarch.rpm > 21864 raidem-music-1.0-2.fc8.noarch.rpm > 20212 trackballs-music-1.2-4.fc8.noarch.rpm > 10532 asc-music-1.0-2.fc8.noarch.rpm I would suggest cutting the *-music packages first. That cleans up ~80GB with no real loss in playability. --Wart From bruno at wolff.to Thu Jan 22 12:35:10 2009 From: bruno at wolff.to (Bruno Wolff III) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 06:35:10 -0600 Subject: Games Spin Status In-Reply-To: <4977E958.8040806@kobold.org> References: <20090120040612.GA3842@wolff.to> <20090121141038.GA14569@wolff.to> <4977E958.8040806@kobold.org> Message-ID: <20090122123510.GB9490@wolff.to> FYI there has been a thread (http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/fedora-spins/2009-January/000420.html) started to discuss whether or not published DVD iso's will be allowed to be over 4 GiB. Since this affects the games spin I thought I would mention it here, since some of you seem to have opinions on this. It would be especially useful to hear from people that have estimates on how many Windows users that are likely to try out Fedora spins are likely to be using vfat on their C: drive. From mg at hacka.net Fri Jan 23 16:44:54 2009 From: mg at hacka.net (Magnus Glantz) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 17:44:54 +0100 Subject: Need for more interested packagers Message-ID: <1232729094.3803.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hi, I noticed that the Fedora Games SIG was not mentioned at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Join I fixed that.. so perhaps now more people will be coming you're way. I also saw that more contributors was listed as a general issue at you're Wiki page, perhaps these two things went hand in hand. -- Best regards, Magnus 'magnusg' Glantz E-mail: mg -at- hacka -dot- net GPG Fingerprint: DDCE BD02 793C 5C2E 8C5C 3FE9 1E1E 7593 0DB5 3317 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Magnusg From limb at jcomserv.net Fri Jan 23 15:50:36 2009 From: limb at jcomserv.net (Jon Ciesla) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 09:50:36 -0600 (CST) Subject: Need for more interested packagers In-Reply-To: <1232729094.3803.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1232729094.3803.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: > Hi, > > I noticed that the Fedora Games SIG was not mentioned at > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Join > > I fixed that.. so perhaps now more people will be coming you're way. > > I also saw that more contributors was listed as a general issue at > you're Wiki page, perhaps these two things went hand in hand. Thanks. The more, the merrier! :) > -- > Best regards, > Magnus 'magnusg' Glantz > E-mail: mg -at- hacka -dot- net > GPG Fingerprint: DDCE BD02 793C 5C2E 8C5C 3FE9 1E1E 7593 0DB5 3317 > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Magnusg > > _______________________________________________ > Fedora-games-list mailing list > Fedora-games-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-games-list > -- in your fear, speak only peace in your fear, seek only love -d. bowie From seg at haxxed.com Sat Jan 24 20:10:55 2009 From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 14:10:55 -0600 Subject: Games Spin Status In-Reply-To: <20090122123510.GB9490@wolff.to> References: <20090120040612.GA3842@wolff.to> <20090121141038.GA14569@wolff.to> <4977E958.8040806@kobold.org> <20090122123510.GB9490@wolff.to> Message-ID: <1218b5bc0901241210y48487fd4w94b84c624d78d2af@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 6:35 AM, Bruno Wolff III wrote: > It would be especially useful to hear from people that have estimates on how > many Windows users that are likely to try out Fedora spins are likely to > be using vfat on their C: drive. According to the latest Steam hardware survey: http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/ 97.33% of users are using NTFS. (Click "Other settings" on the bottom) Really the only worry I see is that 4GB+ images probably won't work for Live USB. USB sticks are usually FAT, and I think the Live USB system requires it, as it uses syslinux. Booting Live USB off NTFS or ext2 should be possible to implement. NTFS patches for GRUB exist, but Fedora's GRUB doesn't seem to have them: http://www.geocities.com/lode_leroy/grubinstall/ From bruno at wolff.to Sat Jan 24 21:31:51 2009 From: bruno at wolff.to (Bruno Wolff III) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 15:31:51 -0600 Subject: Games Spin Status In-Reply-To: <1218b5bc0901241210y48487fd4w94b84c624d78d2af@mail.gmail.com> References: <20090120040612.GA3842@wolff.to> <20090121141038.GA14569@wolff.to> <4977E958.8040806@kobold.org> <20090122123510.GB9490@wolff.to> <1218b5bc0901241210y48487fd4w94b84c624d78d2af@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090124213151.GA21619@wolff.to> This is pretty useful, I am going to try to tie this into a thread on the spins list which might end up looking weird for threading. On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 14:10:55 -0600, Callum Lerwick wrote: > On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 6:35 AM, Bruno Wolff III wrote: > > It would be especially useful to hear from people that have estimates on how > > many Windows users that are likely to try out Fedora spins are likely to > > be using vfat on their C: drive. > > According to the latest Steam hardware survey: > > http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/ > > 97.33% of users are using NTFS. (Click "Other settings" on the bottom) > > Really the only worry I see is that 4GB+ images probably won't work > for Live USB. USB sticks are usually FAT, and I think the Live USB > system requires it, as it uses syslinux. Booting Live USB off NTFS or > ext2 should be possible to implement. NTFS patches for GRUB exist, but > Fedora's GRUB doesn't seem to have them: > > http://www.geocities.com/lode_leroy/grubinstall/ Grub also allows its files to be referenced by block numbers. That could be used to work around loading the grub config file. I don't think getting people to reformat their usb drives is that big of a deal. They can copy stuff off, format it, and then copy stuff back. The issue is getting it to work both as liveusb and still letting it be used under windows for moving files around.