From robark at gmail.com Wed Nov 4 20:42:12 2009 From: robark at gmail.com (Robert Arkiletian) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 12:42:12 -0800 Subject: Beta Fl_TeacherTool 0.71 for K12Linux (LTSP5) Message-ID: Okay it's done. At least I hope it's done. I have developed this on F9, it may need a tiny tweak for F11. I have not done extensive testing so there may be some bugs. I know screen blanking (lock) does not work but that is a general LTSP issue. The install procedure is long. I think this may be a barrier to entry for some. If someone is interested to create a script for the install (or an rpm) I think that would be much appreciated by many. BTW this new version does *not* have the security vulnerability that the old version for ltsp 4.x did :) Download http://www3.telus.net/public/robark/Fl_TeacherTool/download.html Install procedure http://www3.telus.net/public/robark/Fl_TeacherTool/k12linuxinstall.txt Special thanks to Peter Scheie for helping me figure out stuff in the install procedure. Cheers -- Robert Arkiletian Eric Hamber Secondary, Vancouver, Canada From brcisna at eazylivin.net Mon Nov 9 12:06:35 2009 From: brcisna at eazylivin.net (Barry R Cisna) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 06:06:35 -0600 (CST) Subject: Beta Fl_TeacherTool 0.71 for K12Linux (LTSP5) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44985.216.24.126.66.1257768395.squirrel@www.eazylivin.net> Hi Robert, I have about done an rpm to do everything to install Fl_TeacherTool-071. The only holdup is a script I made to do chroot to install the x11vnc and openssh-server to the ltsp tree dies/stops after chrooting. Once I get that figured out I'll email you the rpm to beat on. Take Care, Barry Cisna > Okay it's done. At least I hope it's done. > > I have developed this on F9, it may need a tiny tweak for F11. I have > not done extensive testing so there may be some bugs. I know screen > blanking (lock) does not work but that is a general LTSP issue. > > The install procedure is long. I think this may be a barrier to entry > for some. If someone is interested to create a script for the install > (or an rpm) I think that would be much appreciated by many. > > BTW this new version does *not* have the security vulnerability that > the old version for ltsp 4.x did :) > > Download > http://www3.telus.net/public/robark/Fl_TeacherTool/download.html > > Install procedure > http://www3.telus.net/public/robark/Fl_TeacherTool/k12linuxinstall.txt > > Special thanks to Peter Scheie for helping me figure out stuff in the > install procedure. > > Cheers > > -- > Robert Arkiletian > Eric Hamber Secondary, Vancouver, Canada > > _______________________________________________ > K12Linux-devel-list mailing list > K12Linux-devel-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12linux-devel-list > From robark at gmail.com Mon Nov 9 23:35:58 2009 From: robark at gmail.com (Robert Arkiletian) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 15:35:58 -0800 Subject: Beta Fl_TeacherTool 0.71 for K12Linux (LTSP5) In-Reply-To: <44985.216.24.126.66.1257768395.squirrel@www.eazylivin.net> References: <44985.216.24.126.66.1257768395.squirrel@www.eazylivin.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 4:06 AM, Barry R Cisna wrote: > Hi Robert, > > I have about done an rpm to do everything to install Fl_TeacherTool-071. > The only holdup is a script I made ?to do chroot to install the x11vnc and > openssh-server to the ltsp tree dies/stops after chrooting. Once I get > that figured out I'll email you the rpm to beat on. That's great Barry. I'm interested to know how you solve the chroot-script issue. I don't think copying the script to the same location in the chroot will help. Basically, as I see it, there will be a process which will try to access a file (the script) outside the new filesystem. One solution would be to determine just what files are modified/installed (in the chroot) and then do it all within the script from outside the chroot. cheers > > Take Care, > Barry Cisna > > >> Okay it's done. At least I hope it's done. >> >> I have developed this on F9, ?it may need a tiny tweak for F11. I have >> not done extensive testing so there may be some bugs. I know screen >> blanking (lock) does not work but that is a general LTSP issue. >> >> The install procedure is long. I think this may be a barrier to entry >> for some. If someone is interested to create a script for the install >> (or an rpm) I think that would be much appreciated by many. >> >> BTW this new version does *not* have the security vulnerability that >> the old version for ltsp 4.x did :) >> >> Download >> http://www3.telus.net/public/robark/Fl_TeacherTool/download.html >> >> Install procedure >> http://www3.telus.net/public/robark/Fl_TeacherTool/k12linuxinstall.txt >> >> Special thanks to Peter Scheie for helping me figure out stuff in the >> install procedure. >> >> Cheers >> >> -- >> Robert Arkiletian >> Eric Hamber Secondary, Vancouver, Canada >> >> _______________________________________________ >> K12Linux-devel-list mailing list >> K12Linux-devel-list at redhat.com >> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12linux-devel-list >> > > _______________________________________________ > K12Linux-devel-list mailing list > K12Linux-devel-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12linux-devel-list > -- Robert Arkiletian Eric Hamber Secondary, Vancouver, Canada From cyberorg at opensuse.org Tue Nov 10 12:41:42 2009 From: cyberorg at opensuse.org (Jigish Gohil) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 18:11:42 +0530 Subject: Beta Fl_TeacherTool 0.71 for K12Linux (LTSP5) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 2:12 AM, Robert Arkiletian wrote: > Okay it's done. At least I hope it's done. > > I have developed this on F9, ?it may need a tiny tweak for F11. I have > not done extensive testing so there may be some bugs. I know screen > blanking (lock) does not work but that is a general LTSP issue. > > The install procedure is long. I think this may be a barrier to entry > for some. If someone is interested to create a script for the install > (or an rpm) I think that would be much appreciated by many. > > BTW this new version does *not* have the security vulnerability that > the old version for ltsp 4.x did :) > > Download > http://www3.telus.net/public/robark/Fl_TeacherTool/download.html > Hi, I am unable to build this on openSUSE 11.2, gcc 4.4.1. Build log is here: http://pastebin.com/f2d0b0306 Spec file has: BuildRequires: fltk fltk-devel gcc-c++ xorg-x11-libXpm-devel xorg-x11-proto-devel xorg-x11-libX11-devel libpng-devel libjpeg-devel gnome-desktop tightvnc Missing #include? Ciao -J From robark at gmail.com Tue Nov 10 18:05:47 2009 From: robark at gmail.com (Robert Arkiletian) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 10:05:47 -0800 Subject: Beta Fl_TeacherTool 0.71 for K12Linux (LTSP5) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 4:41 AM, Jigish Gohil wrote: > On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 2:12 AM, Robert Arkiletian wrote: >> Okay it's done. At least I hope it's done. >> >> I have developed this on F9, it may need a tiny tweak for F11. I have >> not done extensive testing so there may be some bugs. I know screen >> blanking (lock) does not work but that is a general LTSP issue. >> >> The install procedure is long. I think this may be a barrier to entry >> for some. If someone is interested to create a script for the install >> (or an rpm) I think that would be much appreciated by many. >> >> BTW this new version does *not* have the security vulnerability that >> the old version for ltsp 4.x did :) >> >> Download >> http://www3.telus.net/public/robark/Fl_TeacherTool/download.html >> > Hi, I am unable to build this on openSUSE 11.2, gcc 4.4.1. Build log is here: > > http://pastebin.com/f2d0b0306 > > > Spec file has: > BuildRequires: fltk fltk-devel gcc-c++ xorg-x11-libXpm-devel > xorg-x11-proto-devel xorg-x11-libX11-devel libpng-devel libjpeg-devel > gnome-desktop tightvnc > > Missing #include? g++ `fltk-config --use-images --ldflags` -lXpm -Wall `fltk-config --cxxflags|sed s/-D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2//` -D FL_CONFIG=\"//etc/fl_teachertool/fl_teachertool.conf\" -D FL_MACLIST=\"//etc/fl_teachertool/fl_teachertool.maclist\" -D HOSTINFOFILE=\"//etc/fl_teachertool/HOST_INFO_FILE\" -D VNCREFLECTOR=\"/usr/bin/vncreflector\" -D TIGHTVNCVIEWER=\"/usr/bin/teachertool-vncviewer\" -D VNCSNAPSHOT=\"/usr/bin/vncsnapshot\" -D CONVERT=\"/usr/bin/convert\" -D REALVNCVIEWER=\"/usr/bin/vncviewer\" -D FLTTMESSAGE=\"//usr/bin/fl_ttmessage\" -D BINDIR=\"//usr/bin\" -D SBINDIR=\"//usr/sbin\" fl_teachertool.o -o fl_teachertool fl_teachertool.o: In function `NameWindow::cb_aboutbtn(Fl_Widget*, void*)': /usr/src/packages/BUILD/fl_teachertool-0.71/fl_teachertool.cxx:2644: undefined reference to `fl_message(char const*, ...)' fl_teachertool.o: In function `ViewWindow::vwin_callback_i()': /usr/src/packages/BUILD/fl_teachertool-0.71/fl_teachertool.cxx:1390: undefined reference to `Fl::e_number' /usr/src/packages/BUILD/fl_teachertool-0.71/fl_teachertool.cxx:1397: undefined reference to `Fl::e_keysym' fl_teachertool.o: In function `NameWindow::nwin_callback(Fl_Widget*, void*)': /usr/src/packages/BUILD/fl_teachertool-0.71/fl_teachertool.cxx:2768: undefined reference to `Fl::e_number' /usr/src/packages/BUILD/fl_teachertool-0.71/fl_teachertool.cxx:2778: undefined reference to `Fl::first_window()' /usr/src/packages/BUILD/fl_teachertool-0.71/fl_teachertool.cxx:2776: undefined reference to `Fl::first_window()' /usr/src/packages/BUILD/fl_teachertool-0.71/fl_teachertool.cxx:2770: undefined reference to `Fl::e_keysym' /usr/src/packages/BUILD/fl_teachertool-0.71/fl_teachertool.cxx:2772: undefined reference to `Fl_Browser_::deselect(int)' seems like it's an fltk linking issue. what do these give you fltk-config --use-images --ldflags fltk-config --cxxflags|sed s/-D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2// -- Robert Arkiletian Eric Hamber Secondary, Vancouver, Canada From robark at gmail.com Tue Nov 10 18:51:01 2009 From: robark at gmail.com (Robert Arkiletian) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 10:51:01 -0800 Subject: Beta Fl_TeacherTool 0.71 for K12Linux (LTSP5) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 10:05 AM, Robert Arkiletian wrote: > On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 4:41 AM, Jigish Gohil wrote: >> On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 2:12 AM, Robert Arkiletian wrote: >>> Okay it's done. At least I hope it's done. >>> >>> I have developed this on F9, ?it may need a tiny tweak for F11. I have >>> not done extensive testing so there may be some bugs. I know screen >>> blanking (lock) does not work but that is a general LTSP issue. >>> >>> The install procedure is long. I think this may be a barrier to entry >>> for some. If someone is interested to create a script for the install >>> (or an rpm) I think that would be much appreciated by many. >>> >>> BTW this new version does *not* have the security vulnerability that >>> the old version for ltsp 4.x did :) >>> >>> Download >>> http://www3.telus.net/public/robark/Fl_TeacherTool/download.html >>> >> Hi, I am unable to build this on openSUSE 11.2, gcc 4.4.1. Build log is here: >> >> http://pastebin.com/f2d0b0306 >> >> >> Spec file has: >> BuildRequires: fltk fltk-devel gcc-c++ xorg-x11-libXpm-devel >> xorg-x11-proto-devel xorg-x11-libX11-devel libpng-devel libjpeg-devel >> gnome-desktop tightvnc >> >> Missing #include? > > g++ `fltk-config --use-images --ldflags` -lXpm -Wall `fltk-config > --cxxflags|sed s/-D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2//` -D > FL_CONFIG=\"//etc/fl_teachertool/fl_teachertool.conf\" -D > FL_MACLIST=\"//etc/fl_teachertool/fl_teachertool.maclist\" -D > HOSTINFOFILE=\"//etc/fl_teachertool/HOST_INFO_FILE\" -D > VNCREFLECTOR=\"/usr/bin/vncreflector\" -D > TIGHTVNCVIEWER=\"/usr/bin/teachertool-vncviewer\" -D > VNCSNAPSHOT=\"/usr/bin/vncsnapshot\" -D CONVERT=\"/usr/bin/convert\" > -D REALVNCVIEWER=\"/usr/bin/vncviewer\" -D > FLTTMESSAGE=\"//usr/bin/fl_ttmessage\" -D BINDIR=\"//usr/bin\" -D > SBINDIR=\"//usr/sbin\" fl_teachertool.o -o fl_teachertool > fl_teachertool.o: In function `NameWindow::cb_aboutbtn(Fl_Widget*, void*)': > /usr/src/packages/BUILD/fl_teachertool-0.71/fl_teachertool.cxx:2644: > undefined reference to `fl_message(char const*, ...)' > fl_teachertool.o: In function `ViewWindow::vwin_callback_i()': > /usr/src/packages/BUILD/fl_teachertool-0.71/fl_teachertool.cxx:1390: > undefined reference to `Fl::e_number' > /usr/src/packages/BUILD/fl_teachertool-0.71/fl_teachertool.cxx:1397: > undefined reference to `Fl::e_keysym' > fl_teachertool.o: In function `NameWindow::nwin_callback(Fl_Widget*, void*)': > /usr/src/packages/BUILD/fl_teachertool-0.71/fl_teachertool.cxx:2768: > undefined reference to `Fl::e_number' > /usr/src/packages/BUILD/fl_teachertool-0.71/fl_teachertool.cxx:2778: > undefined reference to `Fl::first_window()' > /usr/src/packages/BUILD/fl_teachertool-0.71/fl_teachertool.cxx:2776: > undefined reference to `Fl::first_window()' > /usr/src/packages/BUILD/fl_teachertool-0.71/fl_teachertool.cxx:2770: > undefined reference to `Fl::e_keysym' > /usr/src/packages/BUILD/fl_teachertool-0.71/fl_teachertool.cxx:2772: > undefined reference to `Fl_Browser_::deselect(int)' > > > seems like it's an fltk linking issue. > > what do these give you > I get > fltk-config --use-images --ldflags -lfltk_images -lpng -lz -ljpeg -lfltk > fltk-config --cxxflags|sed s/-D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2// -I/usr/include/freetype2 -D_LARGEFILE_SOURCE -D_LARGEFILE64_SOURCE -D_THREAD_SAFE -D_REENTRANT -- Robert Arkiletian Eric Hamber Secondary, Vancouver, Canada From cyberorg at opensuse.org Fri Nov 20 12:02:33 2009 From: cyberorg at opensuse.org (Jigish Gohil) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 17:32:33 +0530 Subject: Beta Fl_TeacherTool 0.71 for K12Linux (LTSP5) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 12:21 AM, Robert Arkiletian wrote: >> >> seems like it's an fltk linking issue. >> >> what do these give you Found the real cause. "If you get errors that you have undefined references, but the needed libraries are defined, this means that the linking order isn't correct. All libraries in openSUSE > 1110 are linked with the ld flag --as-needed" "When using --as-needed, the order in which the libraries appear in the command line is relevant: any library X must precede all libraries Y that offer symbols that X uses." The issue is described here: http://en.opensuse.org/Packaging/Fixing Please do the needful :) Cheers -J From cyberorg at opensuse.org Fri Nov 20 17:05:20 2009 From: cyberorg at opensuse.org (Jigish Gohil) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 22:35:20 +0530 Subject: fl_teachertool-0.71 rpm In-Reply-To: <1258731470.8835.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1258731470.8835.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 9:07 PM, Barry Cisna wrote: > Hi Jigish, > > Did you by chance try downloading the rpm I built for > fl_teachertool-0.71? I have used alien in the past to convert rpm's to >> .deb etc. I am not sure this works on openSUSE? > here is my little humble ftp site to download fl_teachertool-0.71.rpm; > > ftp://eazylivin/net/server/fl_teachertool-0.71 > > Let me know how things are going with fl_teachertool-0.71 on > openSUSE,OK? > Hi We do not need alien as .debs and rpm for various distributions can be created on openSUSE Build service. The latest rpms are here: http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/server:/ltsp/openSUSE_11.2/i586/ The rpms build fine, but the code needs rearranging of all the linkers as per the docs posted in last mail Cheers -J From brcisna at eazylivin.net Sun Nov 22 03:02:49 2009 From: brcisna at eazylivin.net (Barry Cisna) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 21:02:49 -0600 Subject: f10 live on usb stick slowness Message-ID: <1258858969.6681.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hello All, Contemplating installing FC10 K12Linux onto my existing Centos 5 k12ltsp server at home - dual boot. I use an Ebox 2300 TC for my personal machine at home. This little machine works fine for me in ltsp 4.X. I setup FC10 K12Linux on a usb stick and booted the server,set up the ltspbr0 ,fired up my Ebox 2300 and the boot process started perfect out of the box. Didn't even have to switch any cables around to make it happen. It took the Ebox around 2 mins to get to a log in screen. Actually once logged into the desktop Abiword, Totem launched fairly decent. The TC even had sound without any configing which floored me as I spent countless hours? getting this to work many moons ago,on ltsp 4.x. The downside is when playing simple sounds from the /usr/share/sounds folder the sound latency was very choppy.The sound would play and about 15 seconds later the progress bar would start to go across. Sound on the Ebox plays much quicker in ltsp4.x for example. As soon as I logged into the desktop I run ifconfig and found that eth0 had already transmitted about 125MB of data! In comparison if I do the same routine in ltsp4.x the value is about half this on eth0. Does having the selinux enabled come into play in this scenario as I have always had selinux disabled ? Will the boot sequence go noticebly faster if I go ahead and install FC10 to the HD? Just wondered what others thoughts and experiences are with the slower TC's I'm all for trying to keep up to date,just wondering if my Ebox will be able to handle FC10 :) Take Care, Barry Cisna From Patrick.Healy at dsusd.us Sun Nov 22 17:18:44 2009 From: Patrick.Healy at dsusd.us (Healy, Patrick) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 09:18:44 -0800 Subject: f10 live on usb stick slowness References: <1258858969.6681.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <8DA4240136DC0E4F942F49709C8D0B750DE0D152@ds-mx2.dsusd.k12.ca.us> Hi Barry, I was using a few Ebox2300's with k12linux on FC9 and now FC11. But even though sound was "working," it was too much for these clients. To get barely acceptable performance, I had to disable sound in the bios. The audio (pulseaudio if I recall correctly) was using too many resources on these under-powered clients. (something like a third to half of the RAM and CPU just at idle) I've since retired them, in favor of some 800 MHz PIII's with 512 MB of RAM that I scrounged up from the discard pile. They work great, along with my class set of Celeron 366's with 128 MB. But if you're going to keep using the Ebox's, you probably want to stick with the old K12LTSP on Centos. Hope this helps, Patrick Healy Palm Desert High School -----Original Message----- From: k12linux-devel-list-bounces at redhat.com on behalf of Barry Cisna Sent: Sat 11/21/2009 7:02 PM just wondering if my Ebox will be able to handle FC10 :) Take Care, Barry Cisna From brcisna at eazylivin.net Sun Nov 22 20:30:21 2009 From: brcisna at eazylivin.net (Barry Cisna) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 14:30:21 -0600 Subject: f10 live on usb stick slowness In-Reply-To: <8DA4240136DC0E4F942F49709C8D0B750DE0D152@ds-mx2.dsusd.k12.ca.us> References: <1258858969.6681.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> <8DA4240136DC0E4F942F49709C8D0B750DE0D152@ds-mx2.dsusd.k12.ca.us> Message-ID: <1258921821.6681.36.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hi Patrick, Thanks much for the feedback! AT least this way I know my temp setup doesn't have something wonky.Just curious, Did the Ebox's run about the same on FC9-K12LINUX as FC11-K12LINUX? I have read so many reports that users going from FC9 to FC10 even on many laptops really noticed major lags in video performance when upgrading from FC9 to FC10. Many said they wound up downgrading the xorg drivers to older FC9 rpms then the video performance came back.I have had FC10 on an Acer Aspire One for a couple months now, and performance is fine with it. We have been happy with the way things run of EL5 k12ltsp at school so that is what we have stuck with there. I thought possibly even going to an GIGE switch in between the home server and my Ebox may help performance somewhat,as my server has both GIGE nics ,but from downstairs,were server is located to upstairs,were the Ebox is ,is an 10/100 switch in between. I do not want to give up the quietness of the Ebox fanless box. Hearing fans running almost drives me nuts after having a fanless PC for the last 5 years. If you would be interested in selling a couple of the Ebox's I may be interested in them for spares. Take Care, Barry Cisna On Sun, 2009-11-22 at 09:18 -0800, Healy, Patrick wrote: > Hi Barry, > > I was using a few Ebox2300's with k12linux on FC9 and now FC11. > > But even though sound was "working," it was too much for these clients. > To get barely acceptable performance, I had to disable sound in the bios. > The audio (pulseaudio if I recall correctly) was using too many resources > on these under-powered clients. (something like a third to half of the > RAM and CPU just at idle) > > I've since retired them, in favor of some 800 MHz PIII's with 512 MB of RAM > that I scrounged up from the discard pile. They work great, along with my > class set of Celeron 366's with 128 MB. > > But if you're going to keep using the Ebox's, you probably want to stick with > the old K12LTSP on Centos. > > Hope this helps, > Patrick Healy > Palm Desert High School > > -----Original Message----- > From: k12linux-devel-list-bounces at redhat.com on behalf of Barry Cisna > Sent: Sat 11/21/2009 7:02 PM > > just wondering if my Ebox will be able to handle FC10 :) > > Take Care, > Barry Cisna > > > > > _______________________________________________ > K12Linux-devel-list mailing list > K12Linux-devel-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12linux-devel-list From brcisna at eazylivin.net Sun Nov 29 18:04:27 2009 From: brcisna at eazylivin.net (Barry Cisna) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 12:04:27 -0600 Subject: hostap - access point your k12linux server Message-ID: <1259517867.5321.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hello All, This may or may not interest someone here. Below is an rpm available for the hostap daemon with built in nl80211 support natively. This was made with the idea of allowing your K12linux server to act as an access point to say laptops in the room were the server resides possibly. If you have an extra 802.11 wifi pci card lying around and would like to make your k12linux server act as an access point this will do it. G series AP's can be had for about $30USD any more so this may not interest anyone. I just wanted to do this to have better control over the wireless as well as getting rid of one more device (AP) and plugin. This has been tested on F9 and F10. You will need kernel 2.6.22 or newer for this to function. uname -r - tells you kernel version you have. View the README at the download URL for info if you so desire; ftp://eazylivin.net/server/hostap Take Care, Barry Cisna From linville at redhat.com Mon Nov 30 14:16:14 2009 From: linville at redhat.com (John W. Linville) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 09:16:14 -0500 Subject: hostap - access point your k12linux server In-Reply-To: <1259517867.5321.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1259517867.5321.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20091130141614.GA29198@redhat.com> On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 12:04:27PM -0600, Barry Cisna wrote: > This may or may not interest someone here. Below is an rpm available for > the hostap daemon with built in nl80211 support natively. > ftp://eazylivin.net/server/hostap Barry, Could you make the source rpm available for those who want to build for non-i386 (or who are just paranoid about binaries)? :-) Thanks! John -- John W. Linville Linux should be at the core linville at redhat.com of your literate lifestyle.