From tom.hoffman at gmail.com Fri May 1 02:13:20 2009 From: tom.hoffman at gmail.com (Tom Hoffman) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 22:13:20 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] SchoolTool 1.0 Released Message-ID: <92de6c880904301913i34c537e7h2eb29bb249712b38@mail.gmail.com> I'm happy to announce the release of SchoolTool 1.0. The old-timers know it has been a long and winding road, and this is just one milestone along the way. Overview of features: http://book.schooltool.org/htmlhelp/features.html Release Notes: http://book.schooltool.org/htmlhelp/jaunty-release-notes.html Installation: http://book.schooltool.org/htmlhelp/setup.html Now the fun *really* begins. --Tom From dahopkins429 at gmail.com Fri May 1 12:03:15 2009 From: dahopkins429 at gmail.com (David Hopkins) Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 08:03:15 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] More feedback on Fedora 10 + LTSP In-Reply-To: <1240546835.4535.14.camel@merlin.localnetsolutions.com> References: <1240347249.13306.16.camel@merlin.localnetsolutions.com> <1240546835.4535.14.camel@merlin.localnetsolutions.com> Message-ID: >> yep, there is a reason that CentOS/RHEL exists. I would prefer to >> stay with CentOS but I have to resolve sound (talk about beating a >> dead horse issue) and with LTSP5 I have to admit that sound 'just >> works' in all the apps I have to have (except for Audacity but I've >> found some documentation that implies it can be made to work). > > Load up the EPEL repo and install pulsaudio. That will let flash sound > work again with flash > v9 . That change clobbered everybody. > A late reply on this part but while I can load up the EPEL repo and install MOST of the pulseaudio rpm's cleanly, I can't get pulseaudio-compat-esound to install as a dependency with esound is detected. It seems that all of gnome (and other packages) requires esound. If I use "rpm -e --nodeps ..." to remove esound and then install pulseaudio-esound-compat, it is then impossible to log onto the system with a gnome session. The error message is that libesd.so isn't found by gnome session and the session immediately exits. Googling reveals that apparently this has been an issue for a bit. Re-installing esound allows users to log back in again (which automatically uninstalls pulseaudio-esound-compat) So, how do I cleanly uninstall esound? I could just let the system uninstall every package with a dependency and then re-install all of them but that is a daunting proposition. Sincerely, Dave Hopkins From rowens at ptd.net Sat May 2 00:11:12 2009 From: rowens at ptd.net (Rob Owens) Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 20:11:12 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] More feedback on Fedora 10 + LTSP In-Reply-To: References: <1240347249.13306.16.camel@merlin.localnetsolutions.com> <1240546835.4535.14.camel@merlin.localnetsolutions.com> Message-ID: <20090502001112.GA14050@aurora.owens.net> On Fri, May 01, 2009 at 08:03:15AM -0400, David Hopkins wrote: > >> yep, there is a reason that CentOS/RHEL exists. I would prefer to > >> stay with CentOS but I have to resolve sound (talk about beating a > >> dead horse issue) and with LTSP5 I have to admit that sound 'just > >> works' in all the apps I have to have (except for Audacity but I've > >> found some documentation that implies it can be made to work). > > > > Load up the EPEL repo and install pulsaudio. That will let flash sound > > work again with flash > v9 . That change clobbered everybody. > > > > A late reply on this part but while I can load up the EPEL repo and > install MOST of the pulseaudio rpm's cleanly, I can't get > pulseaudio-compat-esound to install as a dependency with esound is > detected. It seems that all of gnome (and other packages) requires > esound. If I use "rpm -e --nodeps ..." to remove esound and then > install pulseaudio-esound-compat, it is then impossible to log onto > the system with a gnome session. The error message is that libesd.so > isn't found by gnome session and the session immediately exits. If this is just an issue of Gnome checking for something that it really doesn't need, maybe you should try IceWM or some other window manager. If you can log in, then you can test to see if sound is working the way you want. Then try making Gnome work. > Googling reveals that apparently this has been an issue for a bit. > Re-installing esound allows users to log back in again (which > automatically uninstalls pulseaudio-esound-compat) > > So, how do I cleanly uninstall esound? I could just let the system > uninstall every package with a dependency and then re-install all of > them but that is a daunting proposition. > I'm not sure if this would even help anything. Wouldn't Gnome still complain? I'm not an rpm expert, but I think you could do an "rpm -qa > allfiles.txt" to get a list of all of your installed packages. Then let the system uninstall every package with a dependency. Then "rpm -qa > somefiles.txt", then do a diff of allfiles.txt and somefiles.txt. You could then probably send the diff to the "rpm -i" command. -Rob From burke at thealmquists.net Sun May 3 11:06:59 2009 From: burke at thealmquists.net (Almquist Burke) Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 06:06:59 -0500 Subject: [K12OSN] Single NIC Howto Message-ID: <56554C22-AC04-4CEF-A07B-5F7FCAB4E72F@thealmquists.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I finally have the single NIC howto done. It actually turned out to be easier than I thought. You can check it out at https://fedorahosted.org/k12linux/wiki/ MixedNetworkSetup Any comment's, thoughts, or questions? This was based on my experience adding an K12Linux FC10 server to an existing network with a DHCP and DNS server (dnsmasq actually). -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (Darwin) iEYEARECAAYFAkn9etMACgkQxWV7OPa/g5HtpgCZAY2Mi1hxv3XID+trU3R8nkGd 2H0AnRr40OedZI7CQnl88adYPa3KjjZt =roPf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jkinney at localnetsolutions.com Sun May 3 14:39:32 2009 From: jkinney at localnetsolutions.com (James P. Kinney III) Date: Sun, 03 May 2009 10:39:32 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] More feedback on Fedora 10 + LTSP In-Reply-To: References: <1240347249.13306.16.camel@merlin.localnetsolutions.com> <1240546835.4535.14.camel@merlin.localnetsolutions.com> Message-ID: <1241361572.1016.26.camel@merlin.localnetsolutions.com> Download the pulseaudio-esound-compat and do a manual rpm -ivh pulseaudio-esound-compat --replacefiles . Don't remove the the old esound rpm. It really seems like the compat is built incorrectly. It should be an upgrade to esound. It only contains : /usr/bin/esd /usr/bin/esdcompat /usr/share/man/man1/esdcompat.1.gz On Fri, 2009-05-01 at 08:03 -0400, David Hopkins wrote: > >> yep, there is a reason that CentOS/RHEL exists. I would prefer to > >> stay with CentOS but I have to resolve sound (talk about beating a > >> dead horse issue) and with LTSP5 I have to admit that sound 'just > >> works' in all the apps I have to have (except for Audacity but I've > >> found some documentation that implies it can be made to work). > > > > Load up the EPEL repo and install pulsaudio. That will let flash sound > > work again with flash > v9 . That change clobbered everybody. > > > > A late reply on this part but while I can load up the EPEL repo and > install MOST of the pulseaudio rpm's cleanly, I can't get > pulseaudio-compat-esound to install as a dependency with esound is > detected. It seems that all of gnome (and other packages) requires > esound. If I use "rpm -e --nodeps ..." to remove esound and then > install pulseaudio-esound-compat, it is then impossible to log onto > the system with a gnome session. The error message is that libesd.so > isn't found by gnome session and the session immediately exits. > Googling reveals that apparently this has been an issue for a bit. > Re-installing esound allows users to log back in again (which > automatically uninstalls pulseaudio-esound-compat) > > So, how do I cleanly uninstall esound? I could just let the system > uninstall every package with a dependency and then re-install all of > them but that is a daunting proposition. > > Sincerely, > Dave Hopkins > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see > -- James P. Kinney III CEO & Director of Engineering Local Net Solutions,LLC http://www.localnetsolutions.com GPG ID: 829C6CA7 James P. Kinney III (M.S. Physics) Fingerprint = 3C9E 6366 54FC A3FE BA4D 0659 6190 ADC3 829C 6CA7 -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From dahopkins429 at gmail.com Sun May 3 23:15:28 2009 From: dahopkins429 at gmail.com (David Hopkins) Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 19:15:28 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] More feedback on Fedora 10 + LTSP In-Reply-To: <1241361572.1016.26.camel@merlin.localnetsolutions.com> References: <1240347249.13306.16.camel@merlin.localnetsolutions.com> <1240546835.4535.14.camel@merlin.localnetsolutions.com> <1241361572.1016.26.camel@merlin.localnetsolutions.com> Message-ID: On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 10:39 AM, James P. Kinney III wrote: > Download the pulseaudio-esound-compat and do a manual rpm -ivh > pulseaudio-esound-compat --replacefiles . Don't remove the the old > esound rpm. > > It really seems like the compat is built incorrectly. It should be an > upgrade to esound. It only contains : > /usr/bin/esd > /usr/bin/esdcompat > /usr/share/man/man1/esdcompat.1.gz > Well, that didn't quite work :( but ... rpm -ivh --replacefiles --nodeps pulseaudio-esound-compat did install the package. And sound still works and users can log in. Since a check on /usr/bin/esd shows it linked to esdcompat, I'll assume that pulse is now being used. #ls -l /usr/bin/esd lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 9 May 3 19:03 /usr/bin/esd -> esdcompat Thanks!!! I'll let this run on one of this system for a week or so before implementing it on the other 5 ltsp servers. Sincerely, Dave Hopkins But, From dtrask at vcsvikings.org Tue May 5 15:53:42 2009 From: dtrask at vcsvikings.org (David Trask) Date: Tue, 05 May 2009 11:53:42 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] FOSSed 2009 Scholarship....and register now...less than 50 days! Message-ID: This message is Open Source just like the conference! Distribute it far and WIDE! Let everyone know! Good morning everyone! Guess what! FOSSed 2009 is less than 50 days away! That means the school year is winding down and we're all getting ready to think about summer and our plans for the next school year. For tech folks, both classroom teachers and IT personnel, summertime is a time for planning and redirection. Summer is also a great time to LEARN new skills and formulate new ideas! THIS summer is particularly important as many folks are faced with cutbacks, funding shortfalls, and decisions on how to get the most out of what you currently have. FOSSed is a perfect opportunity to learn new ideas, network with other colleagues, and share your own knowledge with others. Bring a team of your colleagues...sit, relax, unwind and just talk. Learn from each other...and learn what other folks in other schools/organizations are doing. FOSSed 2009 is shaping up nicely! We have some new sessions that we'll be adding to the list in the next few days. Those include sessions on netbook imaging/cloning and deployment with Shaun Meredith, Google offerings for Education, Sugar on a Stick (the One Laptop Per Child OS for EVERY computer!)....and more! (the wonderful folks from SugarLabs at MIT - Walter Bender and Caroline Meeks - would like to come to FOSSed and show us how to use the revolutionary Sugar OS for kids on a USB thumbdrive! It's pretty cool!) You can use it to repurpose older machines and also to set up new machines for younger kids with an operating system that make sense for kids! Check out the current session list at http://www.fossed.com Scholarship! The great folks at InfoBridge are huge supporters of free and open source software in education. They are offering a couple of scholarships for folks to attend FOSSed this year. One is reserved for a first-time FOSSed attendee...if you've never been to FOSSed and you'd love to come this year, but finances are an issue....then check out the scholarship section of the FOSSed web site and download the form. Entries must be received by May 15th. The second scholarship(s) will be for other members of the FOSSed community....see the form for details. *NOTE - if you are an ACTEM member we encourage you to utilize your ACTEM professional development benefit for $400 prior to the scholarship. ACTEM members Don't forget! You have an awesome benefit as part of your membership with ACTEM. You can use up to $400 per year for professional development. See the ACTEM PD section of the ACTEM site http://www.actem.org/Pages/ACTEM_ProDev/index for more information. If you have any questions, feel free to contact me at copperdoggy at gmail.com (we've been doing this for a while) ;-) ACTEM is one of our generous sponsors for the FOSSed banquet on the second night of the conference! Thanks ACTEM! You're entitled and we're flexible! If anyone understands how tight budgets are, it's me. My technology budget for next year is in danger of being cut down to near zero (my job is safe, but I may be using a lot of duct tape next year). However, my professional development money is safe. Why? Because the greatest computers in the world cannot replace dedicated and knowledgable teachers and IT folks. You are entitled to professional development. You NEED to learn. We all do. We even offer CEU's from the University of Southern Maine for those who need them. We're also VERY flexible. If you have a special financial circumstance and would like to work out some special way of finagling/scheduling payment and so forth....let us know! We're happy to help. Register soon! As I mentioned before, FOSSed is less than 50 days away. This means that it's crunch time for us. So....if you are hoping to join us at FOSSed this year....please register ASAP. (even if you don't have all the financial details worked out...register) Register at the FOSSed site at http://www.fossed.com If you have questions about FOSSed....we'll be happy to help you....contact us at copperdoggy at gmail.com Hope to see you at FOSSed! David Trask FOSSed 2009 Copperdog Consulting & Training copperdoggy at gmail.com (207) 446-2738 David N. Trask Technology Teacher/Director Vassalboro Community School dtrask at vcsvikings.org (207)923-3100 (207)923-4305 (direct) From karen at k12opened.com Tue May 5 16:13:55 2009 From: karen at k12opened.com (Karen Fasimpaur) Date: Tue, 05 May 2009 09:13:55 -0700 Subject: [K12OSN] assessment tools Message-ID: <4A0065C3.4060302@k12opened.com> Does anyone know of an open source alternative to Hot Potatoes? Thanks in advance. -- K12 Open Ed www.k12opened.com * Help build the future of open education at http://dictionary.k12opened.com From k12ltsp at hermon.net Thu May 7 13:44:01 2009 From: k12ltsp at hermon.net (k12ltsp) Date: Thu, 07 May 2009 09:44:01 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] LTSP Home Server Overload Message-ID: Hi everyone, We are having an issue with high loads on our home server. The Home Server is the central store we use for the home folder, which is shared out by NFS. It also runs NIS and is the central store for the accounts. We know it's not an issue with hardware. It's a Quad-Core Xeon 2.4 Ghz, with SAS Raid drives, and 4 Gigs of RAM. It's running with 2 Gigabit NIC's through binding. 90% of the school day, all is well and the load is normal. But occasionally, the load can spike up to 10, and this causes all of the linux servers to run slow across the district. The load can suddenly drop down to reasonable levels at an instant and all is well again. We did a top and discovered two things: The WA category is high, meaning the load is caused by the Home server queuing up I/O processes to the SAS Hard Drives. It also shows that NFS is the program queuing up the I.O requests. This means that somewhere, someone in the district is running an application that creates a significant amount of read-write queries that is passed to the Home server by NFS. However, we can't tell what application is causing this load, because from the Home Server's prospective, it only knows of the queries, but not the remote application behind it. Is there a way we can get more information from NFS to identify what these queries are, or does anyone have any idea what we can try to do to identify the responsible application and server? I'm wondering if it's possible to identify which server is generating the bulk of the NFS queries at the time of the high load. We are on CentOS 5. Also, we use async for the NFS server. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Alan Owen Assistant to the Director of Information Services Hermon Information Services/Hermon School Department "Using Technology to Empower All Students to Succeed in a Changing World." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From dyoung at mesd.k12.or.us Thu May 7 14:57:57 2009 From: dyoung at mesd.k12.or.us (Dan Young) Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 07:57:57 -0700 Subject: [K12OSN] LTSP Home Server Overload In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <994441ae0905070757u6cab1f0dt84cdcd4fe106b4b1@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 6:44 AM, k12ltsp wrote: > Is there a way we can get more information from NFS to identify what these > queries are, or does anyone have any idea what we can try to do to > identify the responsible application and server? I'm wondering if it's > possible to identify which server is generating the bulk of the NFS > queries at the time of the high load. This might get you in the ballpark http://nfswatch.sourceforge.net/ nfswatch -clients nfswatch -auth -- Dan Young Multnomah ESD - Technology Services 503-257-1562 From joseph.bishay at gmail.com Fri May 8 04:01:19 2009 From: joseph.bishay at gmail.com (Joseph Bishay) Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 00:01:19 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] Server Configuration question Message-ID: Hello, How are you doing? I hope everyone is well. I have a K12Linux (Fedora 10) LTSP server running quite nicely. The server has 3 network cards installed -- two are running as per the default setup. One is connected to our Internet router, the other is linked to the bridge and serving the thin clients. I have a second area of the Church that has thin clients and I'd like to use that third NIC to serve those thin clients. Currently the LTSP NIC connects to an old switch which both sets of thin clients connect to and the switch keeps failing. Instead of replacing the switch I'd like to just have one set of thin clients off one NIC, the other half off the other NIC. I was able to do this once before with the old version of K12LTSP and LTSP but it involved changing a bunch of files. Is this something as simple as adding the other NIC to the LTSP bridge and the system will magically load? :) Thank you Joseph From proyecto.edulin at gmail.com Fri May 8 15:56:57 2009 From: proyecto.edulin at gmail.com (Alberto Castillo) Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 12:56:57 -0300 Subject: [K12OSN] Noticia Message-ID: <12b235150905080856s33969b4cx7530d4c8573c4fc8@mail.gmail.com> Hola lista! Antes que nada paso a saludarlos y a comentarles algo que seguro a mas de uno le puede resultar interesante o usable. Acabo de terminar de implementar el sistema de que la otra vez les comente: microdistribucion linux que permite correr hasta una 486 con 4MB RAM con entorno grafico. Pero esto no termina aca, la implementacion es completa, ya que he eliminado definitivamente el bendito diskette y ahora la implementacion es via etherboot, por ROM en placa de red, asi que no necesitamos diskettera. Basicamente, etherboot pide identificacion, luego se carga el kernel via red y a continuacion el rootfs de la misma manera. El plus tambien es que con 3MB de RAM funciona! Caracteristicas: Arquitecturas: i486 SX - DX -DX2 - DX4 - CyRyx486 - desde los 25Mhz Placa de red ISA ne2000 Consumo: aprox de la CPU: 30W - aprox de un monitor CRT 14" 55W Kernel 2.4.22 compilado para 486 - 509KB (BzImage) + mknbi Rootfs - 290 kb (gz) - aprox. 700kb descomprimido uclibc+busybox+svgalib+svncviewer Entorno grafico: independiente (gnome, kde, lxde, etc) Memoria: minimo 3MB RAM (un simm de 4MB desperdicia casi 1MB entre la replicacion de ROM en RAM (cerca de 320KB) + 64KB para variables de entorno BIOS en la parte baja de RAM y los 640KB reservados para DOS (aca no se si el kernel lo utiliza). En definitva, cuando la BIOS me marca 3072KB disponibles, aun asi el sistema booteo sin problemas. Rutina de arranque: etherboot - dhcp - tftp - nfs - pantalla de login. El servidor necesita dhcpd - tftpd - nfsd - xinetd - vncserver. Eso es todo, ojo, no ando alardeando nada, estoy muy orgulloso que una persona como yo que tiene pocos conocimientos de linux y no tiene ningun titulo terciario o universitario, haya podido llegar a construir y a entender lo que hice a nivel tecnico. Esto demuestra que nada es imposible en gnu/linux. Un abrazo a toda la lista y comento que estoy documentando todo para que cualquiera lo pueda hacer de forma rapida y facil, paso a paso. cualquier cosa me mandan un mail a proyecto.edulin at gmail.com From burke at thealmquists.net Fri May 8 20:14:44 2009 From: burke at thealmquists.net (Almquist Burke) Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 15:14:44 -0500 Subject: [K12OSN] Server Configuration question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1D93B68C-9C84-4C7A-9260-AB574347CA4E@thealmquists.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On May 7, 2009, at 11:01 PM, Joseph Bishay wrote: > Hello, > > How are you doing? I hope everyone is well. > > I have a K12Linux (Fedora 10) LTSP server running quite nicely. The > server has 3 network cards installed -- two are running as per the > default setup. One is connected to our Internet router, the other is > linked to the bridge and serving the thin clients. > > I have a second area of the Church that has thin clients and I'd like > to use that third NIC to serve those thin clients. Currently the LTSP > NIC connects to an old switch which both sets of thin clients connect > to and the switch keeps failing. Instead of replacing the switch I'd > like to just have one set of thin clients off one NIC, the other half > off the other NIC. > I was able to do this once before with the old version of K12LTSP and > LTSP but it involved changing a bunch of files. Is this something as > simple as adding the other NIC to the LTSP bridge and the system will > magically load? :) > Could you just connect your two networks together? Or, if you want the speed of an extra card, you could bond them and have the bonded interface connect to the ltspbr0 bridge device instead of just the one ethN card. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (Darwin) iEYEARECAAYFAkoEkrUACgkQxWV7OPa/g5HtOgCfUmzpjTgj+5gojsHDFZSonxNb R2QAn3uA7EN8HeWzSq9h0TMkhZO+f3Zg =9wns -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sbetts at msad52.org Sun May 10 16:16:06 2009 From: sbetts at msad52.org (Sharon Betts) Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 12:16:06 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] digital lockers In-Reply-To: <92de6c880904301913i34c537e7h2eb29bb249712b38@mail.gmail.com> References: <92de6c880904301913i34c537e7h2eb29bb249712b38@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Does anyone have a good solution for student / staff digital lockers? As we move to 1-1 with possible netbook solution, this seems like a necessary step for student file access. Sharon From mrjohnlucas at gmail.com Sun May 10 17:03:46 2009 From: mrjohnlucas at gmail.com (John Lucas) Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 13:03:46 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] digital lockers In-Reply-To: References: <92de6c880904301913i34c537e7h2eb29bb249712b38@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A0708F2.8050805@gmail.com> Sharon Betts wrote: > Does anyone have a good solution for student / staff digital lockers? > As we move to 1-1 with possible netbook solution, this seems like a > necessary step for student file access. > Sharon > Perhaps you should define what you mean by a "digital locker". What functions should they serve? -- "History doesn't repeat itself; at best it rhymes." - Mark Twain | John Lucas MrJohnLucas at gmail.com | | St. Thomas, VI 00802 http://mrjohnlucas.googlepages.com/ | | 18.3?N, 65?W AST (UTC-4) | From joseph.bishay at gmail.com Tue May 12 14:24:46 2009 From: joseph.bishay at gmail.com (Joseph Bishay) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 10:24:46 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] Server Configuration question In-Reply-To: <1D93B68C-9C84-4C7A-9260-AB574347CA4E@thealmquists.net> References: <1D93B68C-9C84-4C7A-9260-AB574347CA4E@thealmquists.net> Message-ID: Hello, I hope everyone is well. On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 4:14 PM, Almquist Burke wrote: > Could you just connect your two networks together? Or, if you want the speed > of an extra card, you could bond them and have the bonded interface connect > to the ltspbr0 bridge device instead of just the one ethN card. I don't see how I can connect the two networks together. I have two different floors in the Church. Each floor has thin clients that all connect into a single switch. An uplink from each floor goes to the server room. So in the server room in the basement I've got a cable from the 2nd floor switch and a cable from the 1st floor switch. Currently I have both those cables going into another switch and then a cable from the LTSP server to that switch. I was hoping to eliminate that switch (and it's potential bottle-neck) by plugging the cable from the 2nd floor into one NIC and the the 1st floor into the other NIC. Is that do-able? Thank you! Joseph From lesmikesell at gmail.com Tue May 12 15:39:49 2009 From: lesmikesell at gmail.com (Les Mikesell) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 10:39:49 -0500 Subject: [K12OSN] Server Configuration question In-Reply-To: References: <1D93B68C-9C84-4C7A-9260-AB574347CA4E@thealmquists.net> Message-ID: <4A099845.5040006@gmail.com> Joseph Bishay wrote: > > I hope everyone is well. > > On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 4:14 PM, Almquist Burke wrote: >> Could you just connect your two networks together? Or, if you want the speed >> of an extra card, you could bond them and have the bonded interface connect >> to the ltspbr0 bridge device instead of just the one ethN card. > > I don't see how I can connect the two networks together. I have two > different floors in the Church. Each floor has thin clients that all > connect into a single switch. An uplink from each floor goes to the > server room. So in the server room in the basement I've got a cable > from the 2nd floor switch and a cable from the 1st floor switch. > Currently I have both those cables going into another switch and then > a cable from the LTSP server to that switch. I was hoping to > eliminate that switch (and it's potential bottle-neck) by plugging the > cable from the 2nd floor into one NIC and the the 1st floor into the > other NIC. > > Is that do-able? It seems like it should work to add another ethernet NIC to the bridge if you want all the clients to appear on the same net - with some overhead for propagating broadcasts between segments. That should be easy enough to try. If it doesn't work or you don't like it, you should also be able to configure two separate client subnets if you adjust the dhcpd.conf file, iptables and any other permission-related settings. You may have to change your cable from a crossover between switches to a non-crossover to the server NIC - but I think gig connections are always supposed to autodetect. -- Les Mikesell lesmikesell at gmail.com From HBurroughs at hhprep.org Tue May 12 19:36:01 2009 From: HBurroughs at hhprep.org (Burroughs, Henry) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 15:36:01 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] Help with script In-Reply-To: <20090429160042.0192C619BDA@hormel.redhat.com> References: <20090429160042.0192C619BDA@hormel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <3437EBC2F7B463439E7CD8796349DCF29872EC@enterprise.hhp.hhprep.org> Brian, See code below... put in .sh script and run through cron (test please as I haven't used this in a while!) Example Use: clear-browsercache.sh /home 25 That should cycle through all the users under /home.... in our case, I would run: clear-browsercache.sh /home/students 25 because students are in a subdir..... ----------------Code below:------------- #!/bin/bash # Copyright Henry Burroughs # This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify # it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by # the Free Software Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or # (at your option) any later version. # This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, # but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of # MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the # GNU General Public License for more details. # You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License # along with this program; if not, write to the Free Software # Foundation, Inc., 59 Temple Place, Suite 330, Boston, MA 02111-1307 USA # This script clears the browser cache files for user directories under the following directories: # It takes 2 parameters: # - The directory that holds the user homedirectories # - Purge Cache files older than days # This finds all Mozilla/Firefox Cache files that are older than 30 days: #find . -path "./*/.mozilla/*/*/Cache/*" -type f -mtime +30 -print if [ $# -lt 2 ]; then echo "$0 " echo "" echo -e "\t - The Directory that holds the user home directories" echo -e "\t - Purge cache files older than days" echo "Example:" echo -e "\t$0 /home 10" echo -e "\tWill purge mozilla & firefox cache files older than 10 days" exit fi cd $1 find . -path "./*/.mozilla/*/*/Cache/*" -type f -mtime +$2 -exec rm -f {} \; -----END CODE------------------------------------------- Henry Burroughs Technology Director Hilton Head Preparatory School www.hhprep.org Message: 15 Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:32:28 +0100 From: Brian Chivers Subject: [K12OSN] Help with script To: "Support list for opensource software in schools." Message-ID: <49F864FC.9070508 at portsmouth-college.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed I'm trying to use the script on the k12ltsp wiki(1) to remove firefox cache but the problem is that our students directories are in sub directories under /home_student e.g /home_student tutorgroup 2S-EG k123456 How can I alter the script to descend into each if the sub directories and wipe as it goes ?? Thanks Brian Chivers Portsmouth College (1)http://k12ltsp.org/mediawiki/index.php/Cache_Removal ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------ The views expressed here are my own and not necessarily the views of Portsmouth College ------------------------------ From sjxn at bigpond.net.au Wed May 13 00:50:58 2009 From: sjxn at bigpond.net.au (Steve Jackson) Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 10:50:58 +1000 Subject: [K12OSN] Server Configuration question In-Reply-To: References: <1D93B68C-9C84-4C7A-9260-AB574347CA4E@thealmquists.net> Message-ID: <1242175858.3986.26.camel@brainiac> On Tue, 2009-05-12 at 10:24 -0400, Joseph Bishay wrote: (Some bits snipped) > So in the server room in the basement I've got a cable > from the 2nd floor switch and a cable from the 1st floor switch. > Currently I have both those cables going into another switch and then > a cable from the LTSP server to that switch. I was hoping to > eliminate that switch (and it's potential bottle-neck) by plugging the > cable from the 2nd floor into one NIC and the the 1st floor into the > other NIC. I have done what you are attempting here, a long time ago with K12LTSP and more recently with Edubuntu, for the same sort of reason. It isn't going to just work without tweaking. Unfortunately I don't have my notes any more, but here's what I think I had to do: 1. Determine what the ip address range will be for the extra interface - it must not overlap the original one. 2. Define the ip range for the extra terminal network in the DHCP server config, by copying the existing range and then modifying the extra range ip addresses to suit. 3. Define workstation names in /etc/hosts for the new terminals (this was for K12LTSP using LTSP 4.2 - it isn't needed any more). 4. Check your firewall configuration on the LTSP server, to make sure you aren't blocking the new terminal IP range. 5. After restarting DHCP, check its log to make sure it is servicing the new network, then put a laptop on the extra network and verify that it can get an address. Unless you have taken extra steps, it won't be able to get to the Internet - that doesn't matter. 6. Make sure your TFTP config allows the service to work with the new IP range. 7. Start a terminal and see what happens! From otrcomm at isp-systems.net Wed May 13 03:17:20 2009 From: otrcomm at isp-systems.net (murrah boswell) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 20:17:20 -0700 Subject: [K12OSN] newbee: PXE E11 Arp Timeout Message-ID: <4A0A3BC0.1040405@isp-systems.net> Hello all, I just setup my first k12linux testing system using the Live CD version burned onto a USB stick. when I try to connect a client to the server, I see that I do get assigned and ip in the correct dhcp range, but then get this message a couple of times: PXE E11 ARP Timeout tftp Then after the arp timeout errors and the tftp notice, the client monitor just sits there with a blank screen. For my client, I am using a Dell Latitude 600 laptop with a 3Com minipc nic. Any ideas what the problem(s) might be? Also, anyone know why the version of fedora used in the Live CD does not have netfilter modules built into the kernel? Thanks, Murrah Boswell From otrcomm at isp-systems.net Wed May 13 05:37:07 2009 From: otrcomm at isp-systems.net (murrah boswell) Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 22:37:07 -0700 Subject: UPDATE: [K12OSN] newbee: PXE E11 Arp Timeout In-Reply-To: <4A0A3BC0.1040405@isp-systems.net> References: <4A0A3BC0.1040405@isp-systems.net> Message-ID: <4A0A5C83.8030308@isp-systems.net> Hello All, Okay, I reburned my usg stick and setup the LIveCD exactly like the K12Linux Quick Start Guide said and now I do not get the ARP Timeout error. However, now what happens is my client gets to a screen that shows "Sponsered by Redhat" at the bottom and a Preferences option where I can Select Language, Select Session, Reboot, Shutdown, but there is no place to Logon. There is a partial letter K in the middle of the screen. Any ideas what is going on here? I have rebooted a few times but always get stuck at the same screen. Thanks, Murrah murrah boswell wrote: > Hello all, > > I just setup my first k12linux testing system using the Live CD version > burned onto a USB stick. when I try to connect a client to the server, I > see that I do get assigned and ip in the correct dhcp range, but then > get this message a couple of times: > > PXE E11 ARP Timeout > tftp > > > Then after the arp timeout errors and the tftp notice, the client > monitor just sits there with a blank screen. > > For my client, I am using a Dell Latitude 600 laptop with a 3Com minipc > nic. > > > Any ideas what the problem(s) might be? > > Also, anyone know why the version of fedora used in the Live CD does not > have netfilter modules built into the kernel? > > Thanks, > Murrah Boswell > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see > From HBurroughs at hhprep.org Thu May 14 14:09:12 2009 From: HBurroughs at hhprep.org (Burroughs, Henry) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 10:09:12 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] Anyone got DVD player software running as local app under k12linux? Message-ID: <3437EBC2F7B463439E7CD8796349DCF29872F8@enterprise.hhp.hhprep.org> Has anyone gotten say Xine, etc to run as a local app on a thin-client with a DVD drive? I think this would be a great demonstration of the power of local apps with LTSP 5.... This also might solve the occasional issue of teachers wanting to play CDs on a Thin-client with a drive. Speaking of local applications, were can I find information on how all of that works (local apps) in the k12linux incarnation? I may be installing my own (ie: Smartnotebook 10, Crossover Office, etc) local apps once I test k12linux this summer. Henry Burroughs Technology Director Hilton Head Preparatory School www.hhprep.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From HBurroughs at hhprep.org Thu May 14 14:22:58 2009 From: HBurroughs at hhprep.org (Burroughs, Henry) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 10:22:58 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] Anyone Running ext4 with Centos 5.3/k12ltsp 5.3? Message-ID: <3437EBC2F7B463439E7CD8796349DCF29872FA@enterprise.hhp.hhprep.org> I saw that 5.3 got support for ext4. Is anyone using this in a production environment? I might give it a roll this summer when I migrate my central NFS/Samba server from Centos 4.x to 5.3.... thankfully I'll make a full backup of the Virtual Machine before I play around with ext4, but I was wondering if anyone else had gone down that trail yet? I would love to get the performance increases. Henry Burroughs Technology Director Hilton Head Preparatory School www.hhprep.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gerrylist at drouillard.ca Thu May 14 15:07:19 2009 From: gerrylist at drouillard.ca (Gerald Drouillard) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 11:07:19 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] Anyone Running ext4 with Centos 5.3/k12ltsp 5.3? In-Reply-To: <3437EBC2F7B463439E7CD8796349DCF29872FA@enterprise.hhp.hhprep.org> References: <3437EBC2F7B463439E7CD8796349DCF29872FA@enterprise.hhp.hhprep.org> Message-ID: <4A0C33A7.8010501@drouillard.ca> On 5/14/2009 10:22 AM, Burroughs, Henry wrote: > I saw that 5.3 got support for ext4. Is anyone using this in a > production environment? I might give it a roll this summer when I > migrate my central NFS/Samba server from Centos 4.x to 5.3?. thankfully > I?ll make a full backup of the Virtual Machine before I play around with > ext4, but I was wondering if anyone else had gone down that trail yet? I > would love to get the performance increases. > I am in the process of setting up a new Samba Server. I did some benchmarking with ext4 vs xfs. I was originally going to go with xfs as I have been real pleased with it in the past and it has always been a performance leader (IMO). I also did look at xfs 32bit vs 64bit and 64 had a large enough performance gain to go with it. I am using software raid 10 with 4 1T SATA drives and 16G memory and 4 core processor. I found a 256 raid chunk size to be the speediest also. Also note the tweaked performance mount options that I am using after much testing. Here are the numbers for ext4: Linux version 2.6.28-11-server (buildd at crested) (gcc version 4.3.3 (Ubuntu 4.3.3-5ubuntu4) ) #42-Ubuntu SMP Fri Apr 17 02:45:36 UTC 2009 processor : 0 vendor_id : GenuineIntel cpu family : 6 model : 23 model name : Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU X3323 @ 2.50GHz stepping : 10 cpu MHz : 2499.989 cache size : 3072 KB physical id : 0 siblings : 4 core id : 0 cpu cores : 4 apicid : 0 initial apicid : 0 fpu : yes fpu_exception : yes cpuid level : 13 wp : yes flags : fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat pse36 clflush dts acpi mmx fxsr sse sse2 ss ht tm pbe syscall nx lm constant_tsc arch_perfmon pebs bts rep_good pni dtes64 monitor ds_cpl vmx est tm2 ssse3 cx16 xtpr pdcm dca sse4_1 xsave lahf_lm tpr_shadow vnmi flexpriority bogomips : 4999.97 clflush size : 64 cache_alignment : 64 address sizes : 36 bits physical, 48 bits virtual /dev/md1 on / type ext4 (rw,noatime,nodiratime,user_xattr,acl,journal_checksum,journal_async_commit,commit=120,errors=continue) tmpfs on /lib/init/rw type tmpfs (rw,nosuid,mode=0755) proc on /proc type proc (rw,noexec,nosuid,nodev) sysfs on /sys type sysfs (rw,noexec,nosuid,nodev) varrun on /var/run type tmpfs (rw,nosuid,mode=0755) varlock on /var/lock type tmpfs (rw,noexec,nosuid,nodev,mode=1777) udev on /dev type tmpfs (rw,mode=0755) tmpfs on /dev/shm type tmpfs (rw,nosuid,nodev) devpts on /dev/pts type devpts (rw,noexec,nosuid,gid=5,mode=620) fusectl on /sys/fs/fuse/connections type fusectl (rw) lrm on /lib/modules/2.6.28-11-server/volatile type tmpfs (rw,mode=755) /dev/md0 on /boot type ext3 (rw,relatime) securityfs on /sys/kernel/security type securityfs (rw) Personalities : [linear] [multipath] [raid0] [raid1] [raid6] [raid5] [raid4] [raid10] md1 : active raid10 sda6[0] sdb6[1] sdd6[3] sdc6[2] 1949599744 blocks 256K chunks 2 far-copies [4/4] [UUUU] md0 : active raid1 sdb1[1] sdd1[3] sda1[0] sdc1[2] 979840 blocks [4/4] [UUUU] unused devices: Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on /dev/md1 1.8T 750M 1.7T 1% / tmpfs 7.8G 0 7.8G 0% /lib/init/rw varrun 7.8G 72K 7.8G 1% /var/run varlock 7.8G 0 7.8G 0% /var/lock udev 7.8G 212K 7.8G 1% /dev tmpfs 7.8G 0 7.8G 0% /dev/shm lrm 7.8G 2.7M 7.8G 1% /lib/modules/2.6.28-11-server/volatile /dev/md0 942M 32M 863M 4% /boot Bonnie++ OPTIONS: -f -u gerry -d /home/gerry -n 16:100000:16:64 Version 1.03c ------Sequential Output------ --Sequential Input- --Random- -Per Chr- --Block-- -Rewrite- -Per Chr- --Block-- --Seeks-- Machine Size K/sec %CP K/sec %CP K/sec %CP K/sec %CP K/sec %CP /sec %CP aurora 31G 162062 22 73187 9 339285 22 532.6 1 ------Sequential Create------ --------Random Create-------- -Create-- --Read--- -Delete-- -Create-- --Read--- -Delete-- files:max:min /sec %CP /sec %CP /sec %CP /sec %CP /sec %CP /sec %CP 16:100000:16/64 16920 97 +++++ +++ +++++ +++ 17233 99 +++++ +++ +++++ +++ aurora,31G,,,162062,22,73187,9,,,339285,22,532.6,1,16:100000:16/64,16920,97,+++++,+++,+++++,+++,17233,99,+++++,+++,+++++,+++ XFS: /dev/md1 on / type xfs (rw,noatime,nodiratime,allocsize=512m,logbufs=8,logbsize=262144) tmpfs on /lib/init/rw type tmpfs (rw,nosuid,mode=0755) proc on /proc type proc (rw,noexec,nosuid,nodev) sysfs on /sys type sysfs (rw,noexec,nosuid,nodev) varrun on /var/run type tmpfs (rw,nosuid,mode=0755) varlock on /var/lock type tmpfs (rw,noexec,nosuid,nodev,mode=1777) udev on /dev type tmpfs (rw,mode=0755) tmpfs on /dev/shm type tmpfs (rw,nosuid,nodev) devpts on /dev/pts type devpts (rw,noexec,nosuid,gid=5,mode=620) fusectl on /sys/fs/fuse/connections type fusectl (rw) lrm on /lib/modules/2.6.28-11-server/volatile type tmpfs (rw,mode=755) /dev/md0 on /boot type ext3 (rw,relatime) Personalities : [linear] [multipath] [raid0] [raid1] [raid6] [raid5] [raid4] [raid10] md1 : active raid10 sdb6[1] sdc6[2] sdd6[3] sda6[0] 1949599744 blocks 256K chunks 2 far-copies [4/4] [UUUU] md0 : active raid1 sdb1[1] sda1[0] sdd1[3] sdc1[2] 979840 blocks [4/4] [UUUU] unused devices: meta-data=/dev/md1 isize=256 agcount=32, agsize=15231296 blks = sectsz=512 attr=2 data = bsize=4096 blocks=487399936, imaxpct=5 = sunit=64 swidth=256 blks naming =version 2 bsize=4096 ascii-ci=0 log =internal bsize=4096 blocks=32768, version=2 = sectsz=512 sunit=64 blks, lazy-count=0 realtime =none extsz=1048576 blocks=0, rtextents=0 Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on /dev/md1 1.9T 108G 1.8T 6% / tmpfs 7.8G 0 7.8G 0% /lib/init/rw varrun 7.8G 420K 7.8G 1% /var/run varlock 7.8G 4.0K 7.8G 1% /var/lock udev 7.8G 212K 7.8G 1% /dev tmpfs 7.8G 0 7.8G 0% /dev/shm lrm 7.8G 2.7M 7.8G 1% /lib/modules/2.6.28-11-server/volatile /dev/md0 942M 32M 863M 4% /boot OPTIONS: -f -u gerry -d /home/gerry -n 16:100000:16:64 Version 1.03c ------Sequential Output------ --Sequential Input- --Random- -Per Chr- --Block-- -Rewrite- -Per Chr- --Block-- --Seeks-- Machine Size K/sec %CP K/sec %CP K/sec %CP K/sec %CP K/sec %CP /sec %CP tundra.ask-serv 31G 112496 16 66244 8 316991 23 301.5 0 ------Sequential Create------ --------Random Create-------- -Create-- --Read--- -Delete-- -Create-- --Read--- -Delete-- files:max:min /sec %CP /sec %CP /sec %CP /sec %CP /sec %CP /sec %CP 16:100000:16/64 7458 57 29348 75 7907 33 8824 67 30896 82 6111 31 tundra.ask-services.com,31G,,,112496,16,66244,8,,,316991,23,301.5,0,16:100000:16/64,7458,57,29348,75,7907,33,8824,67,30896,82,6111,31 -- Regards -------------------------------------- Gerald Drouillard Technology Architect Drouillard & Associates, Inc. http://www.Drouillard.ca From robark at gmail.com Thu May 14 15:50:09 2009 From: robark at gmail.com (Robert Arkiletian) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 08:50:09 -0700 Subject: [K12OSN] Anyone Running ext4 with Centos 5.3/k12ltsp 5.3? In-Reply-To: <3437EBC2F7B463439E7CD8796349DCF29872FA@enterprise.hhp.hhprep.org> References: <3437EBC2F7B463439E7CD8796349DCF29872FA@enterprise.hhp.hhprep.org> Message-ID: On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 7:22 AM, Burroughs, Henry wrote: > I saw that 5.3 got support for ext4.? Is anyone using this in a production > environment??? I might give it a roll this summer when I migrate my central > NFS/Samba server from Centos 4.x to 5.3?. thankfully I?ll make a full backup > of the Virtual Machine before I play around with ext4, but I was wondering > if anyone else had gone down that trail yet?? I would love to get the > performance increases. I am interested in this also. Specifically NFS performance of ext4 vs xfs. Please let us know if you discover one to be better than the other. I have talked to a few people who recommended xfs over ext3 for NFS but so far no one I know is using ext4. -- Robert Arkiletian Eric Hamber Secondary, Vancouver, Canada From brcisna at eazylivin.net Sun May 17 11:58:58 2009 From: brcisna at eazylivin.net (Barry R Cisna) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 06:58:58 -0500 Subject: [K12OSN] Firefox glitch dropdown menus Message-ID: <1242561538.11252.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hello All, This should probably be posted on Mozilla/Firefox forum but thought I would see if anyone here has any resolve(s). Has anyone ever figured out what causes Firefox to have the dropdowns 'underlayed' underneath say the adds or other items on a webpage. Bottom line you can not see all of the items in a drop down menu. Good example is Ebay when you are on the auto section and click on car / makes the makes are 'underneath' all of the blasted adds that are ever changing. There are several other sites with this behaviour,this is just an easy example. It seems every version has done this of FF since the first version. I would guess it has something to do with the way flash and or java is implemented into FF? Thanks, Barry Cisna From stretchem at gmail.com Sun May 17 18:27:33 2009 From: stretchem at gmail.com (Mike Rathburn) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 14:27:33 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] Firefox glitch dropdown menus In-Reply-To: <1242561538.11252.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1242561538.11252.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <7cee901e0905171127hee68723ldcd0820461216310@mail.gmail.com> Look at the z-index attribute. It determines the layers on a web page. On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 7:58 AM, Barry R Cisna wrote: > Hello All, > > This should probably be posted on Mozilla/Firefox forum but thought I > would see if anyone here has any resolve(s). > > Has anyone ever figured out what causes Firefox to have the dropdowns > 'underlayed' underneath say the adds or other items on a webpage. Bottom > line you can not see all of the items in a drop down menu. Good example > is Ebay when you are on the auto section and click on car / makes the > makes are 'underneath' all of the blasted adds that are ever changing. > There are several other sites with this behaviour,this is just an easy > example. > It seems every version has done this of FF since the first version. I > would guess it has something to do with the way flash and or java is > implemented into FF? > > Thanks, > Barry Cisna > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see > From cisna-barry at wc235.k12.il.us Mon May 18 11:16:58 2009 From: cisna-barry at wc235.k12.il.us (Barry Cisna) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 06:16:58 -0500 Subject: [K12OSN] Firefox glitch dropdown menus Message-ID: <1242645418.18856.1.camel@hi2.wc235.k12.il.us> Mike, Could you de-cypher this. Were is the z-index attribute? What are the values possible? Thanks, Barry From bill at funnymonkey.com Mon May 18 13:25:08 2009 From: bill at funnymonkey.com (Bill Fitzgerald) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 06:25:08 -0700 Subject: [K12OSN] Firefox glitch dropdown menus In-Reply-To: <1242645418.18856.1.camel@hi2.wc235.k12.il.us> References: <1242645418.18856.1.camel@hi2.wc235.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <4A1161B4.7020005@funnymonkey.com> Hello, Barry, You are probably looking at a poorly designed page -- FF2 and 3 handles z-index settings properly; IE, on the other hand, doesn't. It makes for lots of fun :) Some background info on z-index: http://www.w3schools.com/Css/css_positioning.asp -- link is down the page a little bit http://www.w3schools.com/Css/pr_pos_z-index.asp And a post that describes a workaround for the IE z-index bug: http://www.brenelz.com/blog/2009/02/03/squish-the-internet-explorer-z-index-bug/ Cheers, Bill Barry Cisna wrote: > Mike, > > Could you de-cypher this. Were is the z-index attribute? What are the > values possible? > > Thanks, > Barry > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see > > > -- Bill Fitzgerald http://funnymonkey.com FunnyMonkey -- Click. Connect. Learn. ph. 503 897 7160 From aahodson at episd.org Tue May 19 15:13:00 2009 From: aahodson at episd.org (Alan Hodson) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 09:13:00 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [K12OSN] Scary article from Russia (w/o love) In-Reply-To: <1054699243.2227421242745901577.JavaMail.root@ecb-mx-mailbox1.episd.org> Message-ID: <1207195669.2227551242745980386.JavaMail.root@ecb-mx-mailbox1.episd.org> Check out Tashkinov's article: http://linuxfonts.narod.ru/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.html Serious food for thought! Alan A Hodson MEd. Instructional Applications Analyst El Paso Independent School District oF: 915-887-6871 fX: 915-772-4016 Nxt:915-892-0389 aahodson at episd.org http://links.episd.org/ Open Source Grokker http://tinyurl.com/3e4sh8 Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away -=o=- From microman at cmosnetworks.com Tue May 19 15:48:41 2009 From: microman at cmosnetworks.com (Terrell Prude' Jr.) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 11:48:41 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] Scary article from Russia (w/o love) In-Reply-To: <1207195669.2227551242745980386.JavaMail.root@ecb-mx-mailbox1.episd.org> References: <1207195669.2227551242745980386.JavaMail.root@ecb-mx-mailbox1.episd.org> Message-ID: <4A12D4D9.2050903@cmosnetworks.com> He's only done part of his homework. And some of those "points" are just plain wrong. I smell an MCSE at work there.... --TP Alan Hodson wrote: > Check out Tashkinov's article: http://linuxfonts.narod.ru/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.html > Serious food for thought! > > > Alan A Hodson MEd. > Instructional Applications Analyst > El Paso Independent School District > oF: 915-887-6871 > fX: 915-772-4016 > Nxt:915-892-0389 > aahodson at episd.org > http://links.episd.org/ > Open Source Grokker > http://tinyurl.com/3e4sh8 > > Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, > but by the moments that take our breath away > -=o=- > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see > From lesmikesell at gmail.com Tue May 19 16:00:15 2009 From: lesmikesell at gmail.com (Les Mikesell) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 11:00:15 -0500 Subject: [K12OSN] Scary article from Russia (w/o love) In-Reply-To: <4A12D4D9.2050903@cmosnetworks.com> References: <1207195669.2227551242745980386.JavaMail.root@ecb-mx-mailbox1.episd.org> <4A12D4D9.2050903@cmosnetworks.com> Message-ID: <4A12D78F.2080504@gmail.com> Terrell Prude' Jr. wrote: > He's only done part of his homework. And some of those "points" are > just plain wrong. I smell an MCSE at work there.... You really should compare dollars to dollars when measuring speed, etc. That is, if you want to compare Linux/Openoffice to Windows/MS office, spend the $450 you saved on the software licenses on a faster CPU, more RAM and a better video card and measure what you get for an equal cost. -- Les Mikesell lesmikesell at gmail.com From DLWillson at TheGeek.NU Tue May 19 16:00:48 2009 From: DLWillson at TheGeek.NU (David L. Willson) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 10:00:48 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [K12OSN] Scary article from Russia (w/o love) In-Reply-To: <4A12D4D9.2050903@cmosnetworks.com> Message-ID: <17721862.25841242748848624.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> I resemble that. For my part, I think Linux is completely ready for the desktop, but I'm not sure that the users are ready and I'm not sure that IT people are as ready as they think they are. So, my general-purpose advice is this: Go ahead and pilot Linux on the desktop, with an eye toward full deployment, but make darn sure you have a safety net: a Windows Terminal Server, a Virtual Machine, or a dual-boot handy for anything you might have overlooked. Working without a net is bad geekery. It scares users, and it should. Be humble. Serve the users that feed you. Study as hard as you can. Never, ever attack people, even when they're being "stupid" and "deserve it". --David ----- "Terrell Prude' Jr." wrote: > He's only done part of his homework. And some of those "points" are > just plain wrong. I smell an MCSE at work there.... > > --TP > > Alan Hodson wrote: > > Check out Tashkinov's article: > http://linuxfonts.narod.ru/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.html > > Serious food for thought! > > > > > > Alan A Hodson MEd. > > Instructional Applications Analyst > > El Paso Independent School District > > oF: 915-887-6871 > > fX: 915-772-4016 > > Nxt:915-892-0389 > > aahodson at episd.org > > http://links.episd.org/ > > Open Source Grokker > > http://tinyurl.com/3e4sh8 > > > > Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, > > but by the moments that take our breath away > > -=o=- > > > > _______________________________________________ > > K12OSN mailing list > > K12OSN at redhat.com > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > > For more info see > > > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see From dvanassche at gmail.com Tue May 19 15:41:37 2009 From: dvanassche at gmail.com (David Van Assche) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 17:41:37 +0200 Subject: [K12OSN] Scary article from Russia (w/o love) In-Reply-To: <1207195669.2227551242745980386.JavaMail.root@ecb-mx-mailbox1.episd.org> References: <1054699243.2227421242745901577.JavaMail.root@ecb-mx-mailbox1.episd.org> <1207195669.2227551242745980386.JavaMail.root@ecb-mx-mailbox1.episd.org> Message-ID: <8cc423ef0905190841u428e5a34nb656041f7b9a8391@mail.gmail.com> Clearly the writer has no concept of modern operating systems (including Windows 7 and OSX) and is basing conclusions on why Linux is hard to use on information that is probably 10 years old. Its a shame this kind of crap is written as if its actually been studied and has some merit. I've read briefly through it and found very little fact in the information delivered, if you can even call it that. It sounds more like a list of personal opinions. I mean, no unified package management? I suppose package kit is unheard of to these people.... And since when do OTHER oses like windows or osx have a unified package management system? Are they claiming what runs on windows 2000 will run on Vista or windows 7? Because that would be like claiming elephants are all pink... anyway... I won't let it troll me any further... kind regards, David Van Assche On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 5:13 PM, Alan Hodson wrote: > Check out Tashkinov's article: > http://linuxfonts.narod.ru/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.html > Serious food for thought! > > > Alan A Hodson MEd. > Instructional Applications Analyst > El Paso Independent School District > oF: 915-887-6871 > fX: 915-772-4016 > Nxt:915-892-0389 > aahodson at episd.org > http://links.episd.org/ > Open Source Grokker > http://tinyurl.com/3e4sh8 > > Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, > but by the moments that take our breath away > -=o=- > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From accessys at smart.net Tue May 19 16:31:17 2009 From: accessys at smart.net (Accessys@smart.net) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 12:31:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [K12OSN] Scary article from Russia (w/o love) In-Reply-To: <8cc423ef0905190841u428e5a34nb656041f7b9a8391@mail.gmail.com> References: <1054699243.2227421242745901577.JavaMail.root@ecb-mx-mailbox1.episd.org> <1207195669.2227551242745980386.JavaMail.root@ecb-mx-mailbox1.episd.org> <8cc423ef0905190841u428e5a34nb656041f7b9a8391@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I have put Ubuntu on my cousins computer and she has trouble finding the on/off switch and has had no trouble reading her e-mail and writing correspondence. my wife's laptop also has Ubuntu on it and while she works on Windows at work she switches back and forth with no problem and she is of the "Turn it on it better work" school. this guy has a few points but they are of the IT type not the end user. I do have to acknowledge there are still two areas where Linux is weak . specialized software for different industries, CAD etc. . games Bob On Tue, 19 May 2009, David Van Assche wrote: > Clearly the writer has no concept of modern operating systems (including > Windows 7 and OSX) and is basing conclusions on why Linux is hard to use on > information that is probably 10 years old. Its a shame this kind of crap is > written as if its actually been studied and has some merit. I've read > briefly through it and found very little fact in the information delivered, > if you can even call it that. It sounds more like a list of personal > opinions. I mean, no unified package management? I suppose package kit is > unheard of to these people.... And since when do OTHER oses like windows or > osx have a unified package management system? Are they claiming what runs on > windows 2000 will run on Vista or windows 7? Because that would be like > claiming elephants are all pink... > > anyway... I won't let it troll me any further... > > kind regards, > David Van Assche > > On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 5:13 PM, Alan Hodson wrote: > > > Check out Tashkinov's article: > > http://linuxfonts.narod.ru/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.html > > Serious food for thought! > > > > > > Alan A Hodson MEd. > > Instructional Applications Analyst > > El Paso Independent School District > > oF: 915-887-6871 > > fX: 915-772-4016 > > Nxt:915-892-0389 > > aahodson at episd.org > > http://links.episd.org/ > > Open Source Grokker > > http://tinyurl.com/3e4sh8 > > > > Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, > > but by the moments that take our breath away > > -=o=- > > > > _______________________________________________ > > K12OSN mailing list > > K12OSN at redhat.com > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > > For more info see > > > - end ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ occasionally a true patriot must defend his country from its' government +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve Neither liberty nor safety", Benjamin Franklin - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ASCII Ribbon Campaign. . . . . . . . . . . . accessBob .NO HTML/PDF/RTF/MIME in e-mail. . . . . . . accessys at smartnospam.net .NO MSWord docs in e-mail . . . .. . . . . . Access Systems, engineers .NO attachments in e-mail, .*LINUX powered*. access is a civil right *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# THIS message and any attachments are CONFIDENTIAL and may be privileged. They are intended ONLY for the individual or entity named From simpsond at leopards.k12.ar.us Tue May 19 16:32:39 2009 From: simpsond at leopards.k12.ar.us (Doug Simpson) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 11:32:39 -0500 Subject: [K12OSN] Scary article from Russia (w/o love) In-Reply-To: <4A12D4D9.2050903@cmosnetworks.com> References: <1207195669.2227551242745980386.JavaMail.root@ecb-mx-mailbox1.episd.org> <4A12D4D9.2050903@cmosnetworks.com> Message-ID: <4A1298D7.550C.0078.0@leopards.k12.ar.us> My thoughts, exactly. . . DS Doug Simpson Technology Specialist De Queen Public Schools De Queen, AR simpsond at leopards.k12.ar.us "A Dollar Saved is a Dollar Earned" >>> "Terrell Prude' Jr." 5/19/2009 10:48 AM >>> He's only done part of his homework. And some of those "points" are just plain wrong. I smell an MCSE at work there.... --TP Alan Hodson wrote: > Check out Tashkinov's article: http://linuxfonts.narod.ru/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.html > Serious food for thought! > > > Alan A Hodson MEd. > Instructional Applications Analyst > El Paso Independent School District > oF: 915-887-6871 > fX: 915-772-4016 > Nxt:915-892-0389 > aahodson at episd.org > http://links.episd.org/ > Open Source Grokker > http://tinyurl.com/3e4sh8 > > Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, > but by the moments that take our breath away > -=o=- > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see > _______________________________________________ K12OSN mailing list K12OSN at redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn For more info see From simpsond at leopards.k12.ar.us Tue May 19 16:35:03 2009 From: simpsond at leopards.k12.ar.us (Doug Simpson) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 11:35:03 -0500 Subject: [K12OSN] Scary article from Russia (w/o love) In-Reply-To: <4A12D78F.2080504@gmail.com> References: <1207195669.2227551242745980386.JavaMail.root@ecb-mx-mailbox1.episd.org> <4A12D4D9.2050903@cmosnetworks.com> <4A12D78F.2080504@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A129967.550C.0078.0@leopards.k12.ar.us> his comparison of OO.org running faster on Winders is preposterous. . . If you are running it on two identical computers, winders on one and linux on the other and start OO.org for the first time on each, they will come in at about the same speed. But, close it and start it *again* and linux will blow winders off the table. . . been there, done that. . . DS Doug Simpson Technology Specialist De Queen Public Schools De Queen, AR simpsond at leopards.k12.ar.us "A Dollar Saved is a Dollar Earned" >>> Les Mikesell 5/19/2009 11:00 AM >>> Terrell Prude' Jr. wrote: > He's only done part of his homework. And some of those "points" are > just plain wrong. I smell an MCSE at work there.... You really should compare dollars to dollars when measuring speed, etc. That is, if you want to compare Linux/Openoffice to Windows/MS office, spend the $450 you saved on the software licenses on a faster CPU, more RAM and a better video card and measure what you get for an equal cost. -- Les Mikesell lesmikesell at gmail.com _______________________________________________ K12OSN mailing list K12OSN at redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn For more info see From moon at smbis.com Tue May 19 16:38:27 2009 From: moon at smbis.com (Moon) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 12:38:27 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] Scary article from Russia (w/o love) In-Reply-To: <17721862.25841242748848624.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> References: <17721862.25841242748848624.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> Message-ID: <1242751107.4071.32.camel@mws.localdomain> Based on the comments from the Linux side, I believe one can easily see why Linux is NOT truly ready for the desktop. If anyone that thinks it is, based on applications and usability, then they are obviously not basing their opinion on fact. I have been using Linux exclusively as my desktop platform for the past two years (willing to work through and around Linux desktop's shot comings) and can tell you honestly that there are a lot of shortcomings in Linux as a desktop client. Note that I have used CentOS, Fedora, and Ubuntu for the last four plus releases, as well as deployed K12LTSP and K12Linux in school labs for the past two plus years, so I have had extensive experience with the usability as well as issues with Linux. Continuing to blindly favor and praise Linux desktop solely because of ones prejudices against Microsoft is foolishness and continues to cause Linux to not address it's weaknesses and enhance it's usability for desktop users. Out of the box experience, what 90% of the computing user world experiences, determines their preferences, and if they have to go through Linux setup/configuration Hell to do it, guess what, they won't. Look at the statistics for the number of returned Linux based Netbook PCs vs Windows XP based Netbook PCs, that alone should tell us something. It is in Linux best interest to seriously tune and optimize their desktop offerings. Secondly, Linux seriously needs a Small Business Server platform that competes with Microsoft's SBS. Continuing to ignore these two key areas will continue to be Linux Achilles heel to wider adoption. Red Hat can continue to blindly ignore desktop and Small Business Server opportunities to their own demise, but Ubuntu and SUSE will eventually fulfill that niche and eventually surpass Red Hat. Keep in mind that the lions share of businesses are small. On Tue, 2009-05-19 at 10:00 -0600, David L. Willson wrote: > I resemble that. For my part, I think Linux is completely ready for the desktop, but I'm not sure that the users are ready and I'm not sure that IT people are as ready as they think they are. So, my general-purpose advice is this: Go ahead and pilot Linux on the desktop, with an eye toward full deployment, but make darn sure you have a safety net: a Windows Terminal Server, a Virtual Machine, or a dual-boot handy for anything you might have overlooked. Working without a net is bad geekery. It scares users, and it should. Be humble. Serve the users that feed you. Study as hard as you can. Never, ever attack people, even when they're being "stupid" and "deserve it". > > --David > > ----- "Terrell Prude' Jr." wrote: > > > He's only done part of his homework. And some of those "points" are > > just plain wrong. I smell an MCSE at work there.... > > > > --TP > > > > Alan Hodson wrote: > > > Check out Tashkinov's article: > > http://linuxfonts.narod.ru/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.html > > > Serious food for thought! > > > > > > > > > Alan A Hodson MEd. > > > Instructional Applications Analyst > > > El Paso Independent School District > > > oF: 915-887-6871 > > > fX: 915-772-4016 > > > Nxt:915-892-0389 > > > aahodson at episd.org > > > http://links.episd.org/ > > > Open Source Grokker > > > http://tinyurl.com/3e4sh8 > > > > > > Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, > > > but by the moments that take our breath away > > > -=o=- > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > K12OSN mailing list > > > K12OSN at redhat.com > > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > > > For more info see > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > K12OSN mailing list > > K12OSN at redhat.com > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > > For more info see > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From simpsond at leopards.k12.ar.us Tue May 19 16:45:59 2009 From: simpsond at leopards.k12.ar.us (Doug Simpson) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 11:45:59 -0500 Subject: [K12OSN] Scary article from Russia (w/o love) In-Reply-To: <17721862.25841242748848624.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> References: <4A12D4D9.2050903@cmosnetworks.com> <17721862.25841242748848624.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> Message-ID: <4A129BF7.550C.0078.0@leopards.k12.ar.us> I use to dual-boot my computer at home becuase if the "fall back" think. . . several years ago, I gave up installing winders. . . I do everything I need to do on the linux computer at my home. I have a junk laptop with winders on it that I use if I need winders, but it has a cracked display. Point is, linux serves my needs. . . good, for cheap. DS Doug Simpson Technology Specialist De Queen Public Schools De Queen, AR simpsond at leopards.k12.ar.us "A Dollar Saved is a Dollar Earned" >>> "David L. Willson" 5/19/2009 11:00 AM >>> I resemble that. For my part, I think Linux is completely ready for the desktop, but I'm not sure that the users are ready and I'm not sure that IT people are as ready as they think they are. So, my general-purpose advice is this: Go ahead and pilot Linux on the desktop, with an eye toward full deployment, but make darn sure you have a safety net: a Windows Terminal Server, a Virtual Machine, or a dual-boot handy for anything you might have overlooked. Working without a net is bad geekery. It scares users, and it should. Be humble. Serve the users that feed you. Study as hard as you can. Never, ever attack people, even when they're being "stupid" and "deserve it". --David ----- "Terrell Prude' Jr." wrote: > He's only done part of his homework. And some of those "points" are > just plain wrong. I smell an MCSE at work there.... > > --TP > > Alan Hodson wrote: > > Check out Tashkinov's article: > http://linuxfonts.narod.ru/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.html > > Serious food for thought! > > > > > > Alan A Hodson MEd. > > Instructional Applications Analyst > > El Paso Independent School District > > oF: 915-887-6871 > > fX: 915-772-4016 > > Nxt:915-892-0389 > > aahodson at episd.org > > http://links.episd.org/ > > Open Source Grokker > > http://tinyurl.com/3e4sh8 > > > > Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, > > but by the moments that take our breath away > > -=o=- > > > > _______________________________________________ > > K12OSN mailing list > > K12OSN at redhat.com > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > > For more info see > > > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see _______________________________________________ K12OSN mailing list K12OSN at redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn For more info see From simpsond at leopards.k12.ar.us Tue May 19 16:56:26 2009 From: simpsond at leopards.k12.ar.us (Doug Simpson) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 11:56:26 -0500 Subject: [K12OSN] Scary article from Russia (w/o love) In-Reply-To: References: <1054699243.2227421242745901577.JavaMail.root@ecb-mx-mailbox1.episd.org> <1207195669.2227551242745980386.JavaMail.root@ecb-mx-mailbox1.episd.org> <8cc423ef0905190841u428e5a34nb656041f7b9a8391@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A129E69.550C.0078.0@leopards.k12.ar.us> A few years ago, I had a friend that had a computer and I was over there regularly cleaning off viruses and etc. I asked her if she wanted me to "fix" so that wouldn't happen anymore. Long story short, I set it up, dropped it in place, gave her about a 30 minute crash course and only had to go back one time about two weeks later to fix one minor thing I forgot. She ran it for two years after that, untouched by me, and actually published several book during that time. And she wasn't just geek-squad computer literate, either. . . So, desktop or not? I'd say "definitely". DS Doug Simpson Technology Specialist De Queen Public Schools De Queen, AR simpsond at leopards.k12.ar.us "A Dollar Saved is a Dollar Earned" >>> "Accessys at smart.net" 5/19/2009 11:31 AM >>> I have put Ubuntu on my cousins computer and she has trouble finding the on/off switch and has had no trouble reading her e-mail and writing correspondence. my wife's laptop also has Ubuntu on it and while she works on Windows at work she switches back and forth with no problem and she is of the "Turn it on it better work" school. this guy has a few points but they are of the IT type not the end user. I do have to acknowledge there are still two areas where Linux is weak . specialized software for different industries, CAD etc. . games Bob On Tue, 19 May 2009, David Van Assche wrote: > Clearly the writer has no concept of modern operating systems (including > Windows 7 and OSX) and is basing conclusions on why Linux is hard to use on > information that is probably 10 years old. Its a shame this kind of crap is > written as if its actually been studied and has some merit. I've read > briefly through it and found very little fact in the information delivered, > if you can even call it that. It sounds more like a list of personal > opinions. I mean, no unified package management? I suppose package kit is > unheard of to these people.... And since when do OTHER oses like windows or > osx have a unified package management system? Are they claiming what runs on > windows 2000 will run on Vista or windows 7? Because that would be like > claiming elephants are all pink... > > anyway... I won't let it troll me any further... > > kind regards, > David Van Assche > > On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 5:13 PM, Alan Hodson wrote: > > > Check out Tashkinov's article: > > http://linuxfonts.narod.ru/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.html > > Serious food for thought! > > > > > > Alan A Hodson MEd. > > Instructional Applications Analyst > > El Paso Independent School District > > oF: 915-887-6871 > > fX: 915-772-4016 > > Nxt:915-892-0389 > > aahodson at episd.org > > http://links.episd.org/ > > Open Source Grokker > > http://tinyurl.com/3e4sh8 > > > > Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, > > but by the moments that take our breath away > > -=o=- > > > > _______________________________________________ > > K12OSN mailing list > > K12OSN at redhat.com > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > > For more info see > > > - end ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ occasionally a true patriot must defend his country from its' government +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve Neither liberty nor safety", Benjamin Franklin - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ASCII Ribbon Campaign. . . . . . . . . . . . accessBob .NO HTML/PDF/RTF/MIME in e-mail. . . . . . . accessys at smartnospam.net .NO MSWord docs in e-mail . . . .. . . . . . Access Systems, engineers .NO attachments in e-mail, .*LINUX powered*. access is a civil right *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# THIS message and any attachments are CONFIDENTIAL and may be privileged. They are intended ONLY for the individual or entity named _______________________________________________ K12OSN mailing list K12OSN at redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn For more info see From DLWillson at TheGeek.NU Tue May 19 17:25:48 2009 From: DLWillson at TheGeek.NU (David L. Willson) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 11:25:48 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [K12OSN] Scary article from Russia (w/o love) In-Reply-To: <23489900.25981242752452010.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> Message-ID: <17336033.26001242753948392.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> ... > obviously not basing their opinion on fact. Pretty insulting language, there. I think Linux is as ready for the desktop as say, MacOS, and I'm basing that on fact, AFAIK. > I have been using Linux exclusively as my desktop platform for the > past two years (willing to work through and around Linux desktop's > shot comings) and can tell you honestly that there are a lot of > shortcomings in Linux as a desktop client. Note that I have used > CentOS, Fedora, and Ubuntu for the last four plus releases, as well as > deployed K12LTSP and K12Linux in school labs for the past two plus > years, so I have had extensive experience with the usability as well > as issues with Linux. Same here, but longer. > Continuing to blindly favor and praise Linux desktop solely because of > ones prejudices against Microsoft is foolishness ... Again, pretty insulting language. Isn't there a guide somewhere to intelligently dissenting without insulting? > cause Linux to not address it's weaknesses and enhance it's usability > for desktop users. Out of the box experience, what 90% of the > computing user world experiences, determines their preferences, and if > they have to go through Linux setup/configuration Hell to do it, guess > what, they won't. Look at the statistics for the number of returned > Linux based Netbook PCs vs Windows XP based Netbook PCs, that alone > should tell us something. 'that people want a McComputer? That's what I get from it. And, where are those statistics, so that I can look at them? And what Linux setup/configuration Hell are you talking about? Do people build their own Windows PCs, and it's easier, or something? I've done both many, many, many times, and they seem pretty similar in terms of complexity. Linux compensates for the fact that Windows is on the box already, Windows destroys Linux's ability to boot. Which is more Hellish? > It is in Linux best interest to seriously tune and optimize their > desktop offerings. Secondly, Linux seriously needs a Small Business > Server platform that competes with Microsoft's SBS. Continuing to > ignore these two key areas will continue to be Linux Achilles heel to > wider adoption. Linux has no best interest. The Linux community, or Free software community, if you prefer, is a bunch of people and groups, each with their own drivers. Many, but not all, of those people, are interested in the things you infer that "Linux" is interested in, and they are doing exactly what you suggest already. Read Shuttleworth's blog or the Ubuntu weekly news or the Fedora weekly news or the OpenSUSE equivalent. You'll see. Others in the community couldn't care less whether new users make the switch; they only care about the quality of Linux, not it's attractive-ness to Joe or Jane Windows-user as a design goal. I think that's where Red Hat is. They're happy serving Linux users, and staying true to the Free software thing, and being profitable, and that seems to be enough to worry about. Have you checked out Zimbra? And, I think there a Linux SBS project out there somewhere, and Ubuntu/eBox/et al really are doing a lot to commoditize the more common server functions... > On Tue, 2009-05-19 at 10:00 -0600, David L. Willson wrote: > > I resemble that. For my part, I think Linux is completely ready for > the desktop, but I'm not sure that the users are ready and I'm not > sure that IT people are as ready as they think they are. So, my > general-purpose advice is this: Go ahead and pilot Linux on the > desktop, with an eye toward full deployment, but make darn sure you > have a safety net: a Windows Terminal Server, a Virtual Machine, or a > dual-boot handy for anything you might have overlooked. Working > without a net is bad geekery. It scares users, and it should. Be > humble. Serve the users that feed you. Study as hard as you can. > Never, ever attack people, even when they're being "stupid" and > "deserve it". --David ----- "Terrell Prude' Jr." < > microman at cmosnetworks.com > wrote: > He's only done part of his > homework. And some of those "points" are > just plain wrong. I smell > an MCSE at work there.... > > --TP > > Alan Hodson wrote: > > Check > out Tashkinov's article: > > http://linuxfonts.narod.ru/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.html > > > Serious food for thought! > > > > > > Alan A Hodson MEd. > > > Instructional Applications Analyst > > El Paso Independent School > District > > oF: 915-887-6871 > > fX: 915-772-4016 > > > Nxt:915-892-0389 > > aahodson at episd.org > > http://links.episd.org/ > > > Open Source Grokker > > http://tinyurl.com/3e4sh8 > > > > Life is > not measured by the number of breaths we take, > > but by the moments > that take our breath away > > -=o=- > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > K12OSN mailing > list > > K12OSN at redhat.com > > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > > For more info see < > http://www.k12os.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > > For more info see < http://www.k12os.org > > _______________________________________________ K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn For > more info see < http://www.k12os.org > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see From monteslu at cox.net Tue May 19 17:56:23 2009 From: monteslu at cox.net (monteslu at cox.net) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 13:56:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [K12OSN] Scary article from Russia (w/o love) Message-ID: <8130243.21677.1242755783170.JavaMail.monteslu@127.0.0.1> It is in fact ready for plenty of desktops. I've been using it exclusively at home for most of the decade. It's not for EVERYONE, but neither is windows or OSX. Making a blanket statement that is not ready is trolling and should be treated as such. On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 10:54 AM , Moon wrote: Based on the comments from the Linux side, I believe one can easily see why Linux is NOT truly ready for the desktop. If anyone that thinks it is, based on applications and usability, then they are obviously not basing their opinion on fact. I have been using Linux exclusively as my desktop platform for the past two years (willing to work through and around Linux desktop's shot comings) and can tell you honestly that there are a lot of shortcomings in Linux as a desktop client. Note that I have used CentOS, Fedora, and Ubuntu for the last four plus releases, as well as deployed K12LTSP and K12Linux in school labs for the past two plus years, so I have had extensive experience with the usability as well as issues with Linux. Continuing to blindly favor and praise Linux desktop solely because of ones prejudices against Microsoft is foolishness and continues to cause Linux to not address it's weaknesses and enhance it's usability for desktop users. Out of the box experience, what 90% of the computing user world experiences, determines their preferences, and if they have to go through Linux setup/configuration Hell to do it, guess what, they won't. Look at the statistics for the number of returned Linux based Netbook PCs vs Windows XP based Netbook PCs, that alone should tell us something. It is in Linux best interest to seriously tune and optimize their desktop offerings. Secondly, Linux seriously needs a Small Business Server platform that competes with Microsoft's SBS. Continuing to ignore these two key areas will continue to be Linux Achilles heel to wider adoption. Red Hat can continue to blindly ignore desktop and Small Business Server opportunities to their own demise, but Ubuntu and SUSE will eventually fulfill that niche and eventually surpass Red Hat. Keep in mind that the lions share of businesses are small. On Tue, 2009-05-19 at 10:00 -0600, David L. Willson wrote: I resemble that. For my part, I think Linux is completely ready for the desktop, but I'm not sure that the users are ready and I'm not sure that IT people are as ready as they think they are. So, my general-purpose advice is this: Go ahead and pilot Linux on the desktop, with an eye toward full deployment, but make darn sure you have a safety net: a Windows Terminal Server, a Virtual Machine, or a dual-boot handy for anything you might have overlooked. Working without a net is bad geekery. It scares users, and it should. Be humble. Serve the users that feed you. Study as hard as you can. Never, ever attack people, even when they're being "stupid" and "deserve it". --David ----- "Terrell Prude' Jr." < microman at cmosnetworks.com > wrote: > He's only done part of his homework. And some of those "points" are > just plain wrong. I smell an MCSE at work there.... > > --TP > > Alan Hodson wrote: > > Check out Tashkinov's article: > http://linuxfonts.narod.ru/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.html > > Serious food for thought! > > > > > > Alan A Hodson MEd. > > Instructional Applications Analyst > > El Paso Independent School District > > oF: 915-887-6871 > > fX: 915-772-4016 > > Nxt:915-892-0389 > > aahodson at episd.org > > http://links.episd.org/ > > Open Source Grokker > > http://tinyurl.com/3e4sh8 > > > > Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, > > but by the moments that take our breath away > > -=o=- > > > > _______________________________________________ > > K12OSN mailing list > > K12OSN at redhat.com > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > > For more info see < http://www.k12os.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see < http://www.k12os.org > _______________________________________________ K12OSN mailing list K12OSN at redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn For more info see < http://www.k12os.org > ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ K12OSN mailing list K12OSN at redhat.com ? https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn ? For more info see ? > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From microman at cmosnetworks.com Tue May 19 18:04:23 2009 From: microman at cmosnetworks.com (Terrell Prude' Jr.) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 14:04:23 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] Scary article from Russia (w/o love) In-Reply-To: <1242751107.4071.32.camel@mws.localdomain> References: <17721862.25841242748848624.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> <1242751107.4071.32.camel@mws.localdomain> Message-ID: <4A12F4A7.5020608@cmosnetworks.com> Moon wrote: > Based on the comments from the Linux side, I believe one can easily > see why Linux is NOT truly ready for the desktop. If anyone that > thinks it is, based on applications and usability, then they are > obviously not basing their opinion on fact. Wow, and only *YOU* have the right "facts", eh? You sound just like that Russian MCSE. Go do your homework, please, and get the real facts, not Microsoft's. Jeezus.... --TP From accessys at smart.net Tue May 19 18:04:59 2009 From: accessys at smart.net (Accessys@smart.net) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 14:04:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [K12OSN] Scary article from Russia (w/o love) In-Reply-To: <17336033.26001242753948392.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> References: <17336033.26001242753948392.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> Message-ID: basic. I recently bought a laptop for my wife from System 76 came with Ubuntu installed natively. turned it on. and it worked out of the box. I have phutzed with "my" user but my wife just uses it right the way it came out of the box, she hasn't needed to ask me much of anything. she is not a geek and in fact pretty much hates computers. I call that ready for prime time. was much cheaper than a comparable computer from Dell even, and got it in a week. what more can one ask for. Bob On Tue, 19 May 2009, David L. Willson wrote: > ... > > obviously not basing their opinion on fact. > > Pretty insulting language, there. I think Linux is as ready for the desktop as say, MacOS, and I'm basing that on fact, AFAIK. > > > I have been using Linux exclusively as my desktop platform for the > > past two years (willing to work through and around Linux desktop's > > shot comings) and can tell you honestly that there are a lot of > > shortcomings in Linux as a desktop client. Note that I have used > > CentOS, Fedora, and Ubuntu for the last four plus releases, as well as > > deployed K12LTSP and K12Linux in school labs for the past two plus > > years, so I have had extensive experience with the usability as well > > as issues with Linux. > > Same here, but longer. > > > Continuing to blindly favor and praise Linux desktop solely because of > > ones prejudices against Microsoft is foolishness ... > > Again, pretty insulting language. Isn't there a guide somewhere to intelligently dissenting without insulting? > > > cause Linux to not address it's weaknesses and enhance it's usability > > for desktop users. Out of the box experience, what 90% of the > > computing user world experiences, determines their preferences, and if > > they have to go through Linux setup/configuration Hell to do it, guess > > what, they won't. Look at the statistics for the number of returned > > Linux based Netbook PCs vs Windows XP based Netbook PCs, that alone > > should tell us something. > > 'that people want a McComputer? That's what I get from it. And, where are those statistics, so that I can look at them? > > And what Linux setup/configuration Hell are you talking about? Do people build their own Windows PCs, and it's easier, or something? I've done both many, many, many times, and they seem pretty similar in terms of complexity. Linux compensates for the fact that Windows is on the box already, Windows destroys Linux's ability to boot. Which is more Hellish? > > > It is in Linux best interest to seriously tune and optimize their > > desktop offerings. Secondly, Linux seriously needs a Small Business > > Server platform that competes with Microsoft's SBS. Continuing to > > ignore these two key areas will continue to be Linux Achilles heel to > > wider adoption. > > Linux has no best interest. The Linux community, or Free software community, if you prefer, is a bunch of people and groups, each with their own drivers. Many, but not all, of those people, are interested in the things you infer that "Linux" is interested in, and they are doing exactly what you suggest already. Read Shuttleworth's blog or the Ubuntu weekly news or the Fedora weekly news or the OpenSUSE equivalent. You'll see. Others in the community couldn't care less whether new users make the switch; they only care about the quality of Linux, not it's attractive-ness to Joe or Jane Windows-user as a design goal. I think that's where Red Hat is. They're happy serving Linux users, and staying true to the Free software thing, and being profitable, and that seems to be enough to worry about. > > Have you checked out Zimbra? And, I think there a Linux SBS project out there somewhere, and Ubuntu/eBox/et al really are doing a lot to commoditize the more common server functions... > > > On Tue, 2009-05-19 at 10:00 -0600, David L. Willson wrote: > > > > I resemble that. For my part, I think Linux is completely ready for > > the desktop, but I'm not sure that the users are ready and I'm not > > sure that IT people are as ready as they think they are. So, my > > general-purpose advice is this: Go ahead and pilot Linux on the > > desktop, with an eye toward full deployment, but make darn sure you > > have a safety net: a Windows Terminal Server, a Virtual Machine, or a > > dual-boot handy for anything you might have overlooked. Working > > without a net is bad geekery. It scares users, and it should. Be > > humble. Serve the users that feed you. Study as hard as you can. > > Never, ever attack people, even when they're being "stupid" and > > "deserve it". --David ----- "Terrell Prude' Jr." < > > microman at cmosnetworks.com > wrote: > He's only done part of his > > homework. And some of those "points" are > just plain wrong. I smell > > an MCSE at work there.... > > --TP > > Alan Hodson wrote: > > Check > > out Tashkinov's article: > > > http://linuxfonts.narod.ru/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.html > > > > Serious food for thought! > > > > > > Alan A Hodson MEd. > > > > Instructional Applications Analyst > > El Paso Independent School > > District > > oF: 915-887-6871 > > fX: 915-772-4016 > > > > Nxt:915-892-0389 > > aahodson at episd.org > > http://links.episd.org/ > > > > Open Source Grokker > > http://tinyurl.com/3e4sh8 > > > > Life is > > not measured by the number of breaths we take, > > but by the moments > > that take our breath away > > -=o=- > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > K12OSN mailing > > list > > K12OSN at redhat.com > > > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > > For more info see < > > http://www.k12os.org > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > > > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > > > For more info see < http://www.k12os.org > > > _______________________________________________ K12OSN mailing list > > K12OSN at redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn For > > more info see < http://www.k12os.org > > > _______________________________________________ > > K12OSN mailing list > > K12OSN at redhat.com > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > > For more info see > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see > - end ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ occasionally a true patriot must defend his country from its' government +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve Neither liberty nor safety", Benjamin Franklin - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ASCII Ribbon Campaign. . . . . . . . . . . . accessBob .NO HTML/PDF/RTF/MIME in e-mail. . . . . . . accessys at smartnospam.net .NO MSWord docs in e-mail . . . .. . . . . . Access Systems, engineers .NO attachments in e-mail, .*LINUX powered*. access is a civil right *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# THIS message and any attachments are CONFIDENTIAL and may be privileged. They are intended ONLY for the individual or entity named From ericbrow at gmail.com Tue May 19 18:42:26 2009 From: ericbrow at gmail.com (Eric Brown) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 13:42:26 -0500 Subject: [K12OSN] Scary article from Russia (w/o love) In-Reply-To: <8130243.21677.1242755783170.JavaMail.monteslu@127.0.0.1> References: <8130243.21677.1242755783170.JavaMail.monteslu@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: I also thought that article was nothing but a troll. I have installed Ubuntu on hundreds of computers, and have used it for a primary desktop. I also have installed Windows hundreds of times. Many statements made in the article are true of any OS: Things have to be tweaked to user preference, sound settings are subjective, most home users use what "standard software" that comes with the machine (I can't tell you how many people I've seen stick with MS Works, ClarisWorks, or Word Perfect even though no one else can open their documents). And sound problems? On my personal machine, Ubuntu had far better control over my sound card than the drivers under Windows, I almost never have to find sound drivers for Ubuntu, but have for Windows. I've had to find way more drivers for tons of hardware under Windows (sitting in front of me now, fresh install needs network, video, sound, and chipset drivers). Maybe this person was just trying to get the list fired up. Eric On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 12:56 PM, wrote: > > It is in fact ready for plenty of desktops.? I've been using it exclusively > at home for most of the decade.? It's not for EVERYONE, but neither is > windows or OSX.? Making a blanket statement that is not ready is trolling > and should be treated as such. > > > > > > > On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 10:54 AM , Moon wrote: > ?Based on the comments from the Linux side, I believe one can easily see why > Linux is NOT truly ready for the desktop. If anyone that thinks it is, based > on applications and usability, then they are obviously not basing their > opinion on fact. > I have been using Linux exclusively as my desktop platform for the past two > years (willing to work through and around Linux desktop's shot comings) and > can tell you honestly that there are a lot of shortcomings in Linux as a > desktop client. Note that I have used CentOS, Fedora, and Ubuntu for the > last four plus releases, as well as deployed K12LTSP and K12Linux in school > labs for the past two plus years, so I have had extensive experience with > the usability as well as issues with Linux. > Continuing to blindly favor and praise Linux desktop solely because of ones > prejudices against Microsoft is foolishness and continues to cause Linux to > not address it's weaknesses and enhance it's usability for desktop users. > Out of the box experience, what 90% of the computing user world experiences, > determines their preferences, and if they have to go through Linux > setup/configuration Hell to do it, guess what, they won't. Look at the > statistics for the number of returned Linux based Netbook PCs vs Windows XP > based Netbook PCs, that alone should tell us something. > It is in Linux best interest to seriously tune and optimize their desktop > offerings. Secondly, Linux seriously needs a Small Business Server platform > that competes with Microsoft's SBS. Continuing to ignore these two key areas > will continue to be Linux Achilles heel to wider adoption. > Red Hat can continue to blindly ignore desktop and Small Business Server > opportunities to their own demise, but Ubuntu and SUSE will eventually > fulfill that niche and eventually surpass Red Hat. Keep in mind that the > lions share of businesses are small. > > > On Tue, 2009-05-19 at 10:00 -0600, David L. Willson wrote: I resemble that. > For my part, I think Linux is completely ready for the desktop, but I'm not > sure that the users are ready and I'm not sure that IT people are as ready > as they think they are.? So, my general-purpose advice is this:? Go ahead > and pilot Linux on the desktop, with an eye toward full deployment, but make > darn sure you have a safety net: a Windows Terminal Server, a Virtual > Machine, or a dual-boot handy for anything you might have overlooked. > Working without a net is bad geekery.? It scares users, and it should.? Be > humble.? Serve the users that feed you.? Study as hard as you can.? Never, > ever attack people, even when they're being "stupid" and "deserve it". > --David ----- "Terrell Prude' Jr." < microman at cmosnetworks.com> wrote: > > He's only done part of his homework.? And some of those "points" are > just > plain wrong.? I smell an MCSE at work there.... > > --TP > > Alan Hodson > wrote: > > Check out Tashkinov's article: > > http://linuxfonts.narod.ru/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.html> > > Serious food for thought! > > > > > > Alan A Hodson MEd. > > Instructional > Applications Analyst > > El Paso Independent School District > > oF: > 915-887-6871 > > fX: 915-772-4016 > > Nxt:915-892-0389 > > > aahodson at episd.org> > http://links.episd.org/> > Open Source Grokker > > > http://tinyurl.com/3e4sh8> > > > Life is not measured by the number of > breaths we take, > > but by the moments that take our breath away > > -=o=- >> > > > _______________________________________________ > > K12OSN mailing > list > > K12OSN at redhat.com> > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn> > For more info see < > http://www.k12os.org> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > > K12OSN at redhat.com> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn> For more > info see < http://www.k12os.org> > _______________________________________________ K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.comhttps://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osnFor more info > see < http://www.k12os.org> > ------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see > From moon at smbis.com Tue May 19 19:37:36 2009 From: moon at smbis.com (Moon) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 15:37:36 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] Scary article from Russia (w/o love) In-Reply-To: <17336033.26001242753948392.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> References: <17336033.26001242753948392.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> Message-ID: <1242761856.4071.78.camel@mws.localdomain> Wasn't meant to insult, only point out the facts as I see them, and obviously as others see them, reference the original web link comments. As I said in my original message, show me an SBS "equivalent" or one that even comes close that works out of the box and I'll eat my words. Don't tell me what you think, tell me which one is as good or better than SBS out of the box. BTW, I'm aware of SME Server, ClarkConnect, eBox, SUSE's rendition, and a host of other talk about SBS, like that on Ubuntu. But again, show me one, just one that works out of the box. While you are at it, show me an equivalent to Visio in Linux, one that even comes close, please... This application is the most popular voice/data network documentation tool used in the IT industry. The best that Linux has is DIA? On Tue, 2009-05-19 at 11:25 -0600, David L. Willson wrote: > ... > > obviously not basing their opinion on fact. > > Pretty insulting language, there. I think Linux is as ready for the desktop as say, MacOS, and I'm basing that on fact, AFAIK. > > > I have been using Linux exclusively as my desktop platform for the > > past two years (willing to work through and around Linux desktop's > > shot comings) and can tell you honestly that there are a lot of > > shortcomings in Linux as a desktop client. Note that I have used > > CentOS, Fedora, and Ubuntu for the last four plus releases, as well as > > deployed K12LTSP and K12Linux in school labs for the past two plus > > years, so I have had extensive experience with the usability as well > > as issues with Linux. > > Same here, but longer. > > > Continuing to blindly favor and praise Linux desktop solely because of > > ones prejudices against Microsoft is foolishness ... > > Again, pretty insulting language. Isn't there a guide somewhere to intelligently dissenting without insulting? > > > cause Linux to not address it's weaknesses and enhance it's usability > > for desktop users. Out of the box experience, what 90% of the > > computing user world experiences, determines their preferences, and if > > they have to go through Linux setup/configuration Hell to do it, guess > > what, they won't. Look at the statistics for the number of returned > > Linux based Netbook PCs vs Windows XP based Netbook PCs, that alone > > should tell us something. > > 'that people want a McComputer? That's what I get from it. And, where are those statistics, so that I can look at them? > > And what Linux setup/configuration Hell are you talking about? Do people build their own Windows PCs, and it's easier, or something? I've done both many, many, many times, and they seem pretty similar in terms of complexity. Linux compensates for the fact that Windows is on the box already, Windows destroys Linux's ability to boot. Which is more Hellish? > > > It is in Linux best interest to seriously tune and optimize their > > desktop offerings. Secondly, Linux seriously needs a Small Business > > Server platform that competes with Microsoft's SBS. Continuing to > > ignore these two key areas will continue to be Linux Achilles heel to > > wider adoption. > > Linux has no best interest. The Linux community, or Free software community, if you prefer, is a bunch of people and groups, each with their own drivers. Many, but not all, of those people, are interested in the things you infer that "Linux" is interested in, and they are doing exactly what you suggest already. Read Shuttleworth's blog or the Ubuntu weekly news or the Fedora weekly news or the OpenSUSE equivalent. You'll see. Others in the community couldn't care less whether new users make the switch; they only care about the quality of Linux, not it's attractive-ness to Joe or Jane Windows-user as a design goal. I think that's where Red Hat is. They're happy serving Linux users, and staying true to the Free software thing, and being profitable, and that seems to be enough to worry about. > > Have you checked out Zimbra? And, I think there a Linux SBS project out there somewhere, and Ubuntu/eBox/et al really are doing a lot to commoditize the more common server functions... > > > On Tue, 2009-05-19 at 10:00 -0600, David L. Willson wrote: > > > > I resemble that. For my part, I think Linux is completely ready for > > the desktop, but I'm not sure that the users are ready and I'm not > > sure that IT people are as ready as they think they are. So, my > > general-purpose advice is this: Go ahead and pilot Linux on the > > desktop, with an eye toward full deployment, but make darn sure you > > have a safety net: a Windows Terminal Server, a Virtual Machine, or a > > dual-boot handy for anything you might have overlooked. Working > > without a net is bad geekery. It scares users, and it should. Be > > humble. Serve the users that feed you. Study as hard as you can. > > Never, ever attack people, even when they're being "stupid" and > > "deserve it". --David ----- "Terrell Prude' Jr." < > > microman at cmosnetworks.com > wrote: > He's only done part of his > > homework. And some of those "points" are > just plain wrong. I smell > > an MCSE at work there.... > > --TP > > Alan Hodson wrote: > > Check > > out Tashkinov's article: > > > http://linuxfonts.narod.ru/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.html > > > > Serious food for thought! > > > > > > Alan A Hodson MEd. > > > > Instructional Applications Analyst > > El Paso Independent School > > District > > oF: 915-887-6871 > > fX: 915-772-4016 > > > > Nxt:915-892-0389 > > aahodson at episd.org > > http://links.episd.org/ > > > > Open Source Grokker > > http://tinyurl.com/3e4sh8 > > > > Life is > > not measured by the number of breaths we take, > > but by the moments > > that take our breath away > > -=o=- > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > K12OSN mailing > > list > > K12OSN at redhat.com > > > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > > For more info see < > > http://www.k12os.org > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > > > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > > > For more info see < http://www.k12os.org > > > _______________________________________________ K12OSN mailing list > > K12OSN at redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn For > > more info see < http://www.k12os.org > > > _______________________________________________ > > K12OSN mailing list > > K12OSN at redhat.com > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > > For more info see > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvanassche at gmail.com Tue May 19 19:51:47 2009 From: dvanassche at gmail.com (David Van Assche) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 21:51:47 +0200 Subject: [K12OSN] Scary article from Russia (w/o love) In-Reply-To: <1242761856.4071.78.camel@mws.localdomain> References: <17336033.26001242753948392.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> <1242761856.4071.78.camel@mws.localdomain> Message-ID: <8cc423ef0905191251q7eaa18aap72ad03bac67e9182@mail.gmail.com> hmmm.... what's an SBS? Anyway.... try kivio, works great, and if u really want visio, use that using wine or crossover, whatever you prefer. I really don't see your issue here. If you are looking for something that works out of the box (ie... a linux based system, pick a current distro and you are likely to get what you want, but for me openSUSE, ubuntu, fedora, pcbsd, and Mandriva all work just fine out of the box) On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 9:37 PM, Moon wrote: > Wasn't meant to insult, only point out the facts as I see them, and > obviously as others see them, reference the original web link comments. > > As I said in my original message, show me an SBS "equivalent" or one that > even comes close that works out of the box and I'll eat my words. Don't tell > me what you think, tell me which one is as good or better than SBS out of > the box. BTW, I'm aware of SME Server, ClarkConnect, eBox, SUSE's rendition, > and a host of other talk about SBS, like that on Ubuntu. But again, show me > one, just one that works out of the box. > > While you are at it, show me an equivalent to Visio in Linux, one that even > comes close, please... This application is the most popular voice/data > network documentation tool used in the IT industry. The best that Linux has > is DIA? > > > > > On Tue, 2009-05-19 at 11:25 -0600, David L. Willson wrote: > > ... >> obviously not basing their opinion on fact. > > Pretty insulting language, there. I think Linux is as ready for the desktop > as say, MacOS, and I'm basing that on fact, AFAIK. > >> I have been using Linux exclusively as my desktop platform for the >> past two years (willing to work through and around Linux desktop's >> shot comings) and can tell you honestly that there are a lot of >> shortcomings in Linux as a desktop client. Note that I have used >> CentOS, Fedora, and Ubuntu for the last four plus releases, as well as >> deployed K12LTSP and K12Linux in school labs for the past two plus >> years, so I have had extensive experience with the usability as well >> as issues with Linux. > > Same here, but longer. > >> Continuing to blindly favor and praise Linux desktop solely because of >> ones prejudices against Microsoft is foolishness ... > > Again, pretty insulting language. Isn't there a guide somewhere to > intelligently dissenting without insulting? > >> cause Linux to not address it's weaknesses and enhance it's usability >> for desktop users. Out of the box experience, what 90% of the >> computing user world experiences, determines their preferences, and if >> they have to go through Linux setup/configuration Hell to do it, guess >> what, they won't. Look at the statistics for the number of returned >> Linux based Netbook PCs vs Windows XP based Netbook PCs, that alone >> should tell us something. > > 'that people want a McComputer? That's what I get from it. And, where are > those statistics, so that I can look at them? > > And what Linux setup/configuration Hell are you talking about? Do people > build their own Windows PCs, and it's easier, or something? I've done both > many, many, many times, and they seem pretty similar in terms of complexity. > Linux compensates for the fact that Windows is on the box already, Windows > destroys Linux's ability to boot. Which is more Hellish? > >> It is in Linux best interest to seriously tune and optimize their >> desktop offerings. Secondly, Linux seriously needs a Small Business >> Server platform that competes with Microsoft's SBS. Continuing to >> ignore these two key areas will continue to be Linux Achilles heel to >> wider adoption. > > Linux has no best interest. The Linux community, or Free software > community, if you prefer, is a bunch of people and groups, each with their > own drivers. Many, but not all, of those people, are interested in the > things you infer that "Linux" is interested in, and they are doing exactly > what you suggest already. Read Shuttleworth's blog or the Ubuntu weekly > news or the Fedora weekly news or the OpenSUSE equivalent. You'll see. > Others in the community couldn't care less whether new users make the > switch; they only care about the quality of Linux, not it's attractive-ness > to Joe or Jane Windows-user as a design goal. I think that's where Red Hat > is. They're happy serving Linux users, and staying true to the Free > software thing, and being profitable, and that seems to be enough to worry > about. > > Have you checked out Zimbra? And, I think there a Linux SBS project out > there somewhere, and Ubuntu/eBox/et al really are doing a lot to commoditize > the more common server functions... > >> On Tue, 2009-05-19 at 10:00 -0600, David L. Willson wrote: >> >> I resemble that. For my part, I think Linux is completely ready for >> the desktop, but I'm not sure that the users are ready and I'm not >> sure that IT people are as ready as they think they are. So, my >> general-purpose advice is this: Go ahead and pilot Linux on the >> desktop, with an eye toward full deployment, but make darn sure you >> have a safety net: a Windows Terminal Server, a Virtual Machine, or a >> dual-boot handy for anything you might have overlooked. Working >> without a net is bad geekery. It scares users, and it should. Be >> humble. Serve the users that feed you. Study as hard as you can. >> Never, ever attack people, even when they're being "stupid" and >> "deserve it". --David ----- "Terrell Prude' Jr." < >> microman at cmosnetworks.com > wrote: > He's only done part of his >> homework. And some of those "points" are > just plain wrong. I smell >> an MCSE at work there.... > > --TP > > Alan Hodson wrote: > > Check >> out Tashkinov's article: > >> http://linuxfonts.narod.ru/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.html >> > > Serious food for thought! > > > > > > Alan A Hodson MEd. > > >> Instructional Applications Analyst > > El Paso Independent School >> District > > oF: 915-887-6871 > > fX: 915-772-4016 > > >> Nxt:915-892-0389 > > aahodson at episd.org > > http://links.episd.org/ > >> > Open Source Grokker > > http://tinyurl.com/3e4sh8 > > > > Life is >> not measured by the number of breaths we take, > > but by the moments >> that take our breath away > > -=o=- > > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > K12OSN mailing >> list > > K12OSN at redhat.com > > >> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > > For more info see < >> http://www.k12os.org > > > > > >> _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list >> > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > >> For more info see < http://www.k12os.org > >> _______________________________________________ K12OSN mailing list >> K12OSN at redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn For >> more info see < http://www.k12os.org > >> _______________________________________________ >> K12OSN mailing list >> K12OSN at redhat.com >> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn >> For more info see > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see > From lesmikesell at gmail.com Tue May 19 20:22:34 2009 From: lesmikesell at gmail.com (Les Mikesell) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 15:22:34 -0500 Subject: [K12OSN] Scary article from Russia (w/o love) In-Reply-To: <1242761856.4071.78.camel@mws.localdomain> References: <17336033.26001242753948392.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> <1242761856.4071.78.camel@mws.localdomain> Message-ID: <4A13150A.8010304@gmail.com> Moon wrote: > Wasn't meant to insult, only point out the facts as I see them, and > obviously as others see them, reference the original web link comments. > > As I said in my original message, show me an SBS "equivalent" or one > that even comes close that works out of the box and I'll eat my words. > Don't tell me what you think, tell me which one is as good or better > than SBS out of the box. BTW, I'm aware of SME Server, ClarkConnect, > eBox, SUSE's rendition, and a host of other talk about SBS, like that on > Ubuntu. But again, show me one, just one that works out of the box. What didn't work for you on SME server? -- Les Mikesell lesmikesell at gmail.com From moon at smbis.com Tue May 19 21:07:02 2009 From: moon at smbis.com (Moon) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 17:07:02 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] Scary article from Russia (w/o love) In-Reply-To: <4A13150A.8010304@gmail.com> References: <17336033.26001242753948392.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> <1242761856.4071.78.camel@mws.localdomain> <4A13150A.8010304@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1242767222.4071.100.camel@mws.localdomain> Linux client authentication, LDAP implementation, squidguard, any application not in their contibs or howtos due to how they are implemented through the templates. Some of the howtos and contribs are way outdated and have issues with working properly on their current version 7.4 for example. One case in point (and I have many more to point out) is squidguard. The implementation on SME Server is actually very limited and very outdated. I implemented squidguard on K12LTSP and 100% functionality, but couldn't get it to fully work on the SME Server 7.4 implementation, primarily due to the way it is implemented through the templates and the outdated version used. I worked directly with the developer of the squidguard howto and was not ever able to get it to work because the version used just doesn't support Google SafeNet scripting, not to mention other search engines and limited flexibility with editing configuration. I worked with the developer of pfsense to get squidguard capable of doing these things, but that developer was using the latest release of squidguard. BTW, the use of squid, squidguard, OpenDNS, and using SafeNet scripting on search engines addresses about 95%+ of security needs for most schools and definitely meets federal requirements. On Tue, 2009-05-19 at 15:22 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote: > Moon wrote: > > Wasn't meant to insult, only point out the facts as I see them, and > > obviously as others see them, reference the original web link comments. > > > > As I said in my original message, show me an SBS "equivalent" or one > > that even comes close that works out of the box and I'll eat my words. > > Don't tell me what you think, tell me which one is as good or better > > than SBS out of the box. BTW, I'm aware of SME Server, ClarkConnect, > > eBox, SUSE's rendition, and a host of other talk about SBS, like that on > > Ubuntu. But again, show me one, just one that works out of the box. > > What didn't work for you on SME server? > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvanassche at gmail.com Tue May 19 23:06:02 2009 From: dvanassche at gmail.com (David Van Assche) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 19:06:02 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] Scary article from Russia (w/o love) In-Reply-To: <1242768065.4071.109.camel@mws.localdomain> References: <17336033.26001242753948392.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> <1242761856.4071.78.camel@mws.localdomain> <8cc423ef0905191251q7eaa18aap72ad03bac67e9182@mail.gmail.com> <1242768065.4071.109.camel@mws.localdomain> Message-ID: <8cc423ef0905191606p27e7304dx95887f6371d8a3eb@mail.gmail.com> On the one hand you mention server, the other desktop, then you disregard my comment about using wine or crossover. I'm not really sure how to respond to your queries. IF you're really serious about wanting a fully working solution that includes a business server solution together with great fully working desktops, I'd suggest SLES and SLED, both of which have great easily integrated and working LDAP for server and client, as well as Thin terminal server support, and the host of other items. Kivio is indeed a QT native app, but its really very close to what Visio does, being free and all, it surely makes it worth it, but there is nothing stopping you from using Visio on Linux. In fact, the school I administered ran LTSP 5 which made it real easy to manage, and local apps microsoft items for those who wanted it. Wine is at a stage where pretty much everything major just works... yes, even access... and for the real easy solution crossover. Of course SLES, SLED, MS licenses and crossover are all paid solutions, but its still far less than paying individual licenses for MS Vista, MS Office for every station as well as anything else like small business server with active directory etc. Another solution is to use IBMs domino server, which runs quite well on Linux and is a fair replacement for SBS, but again a paid solution, though far less than the MS counterpart. My point is, there are many many alternatives, and its just about finding the right one to fit your needs. Linux is ready for the desktop and server and has been for about a year now. I'm betting that in 5 years, this wont even be a discussion anymore, but its funny how people still need to discover a lot of this to believe it. Someone else telling them the tools exist obviously isn't enough. On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 5:21 PM, Moon wrote: > SBS = Small Business Server. You missed the whole point, I am talking > about Linux desktop being 100% ready, not band-aids to address lack of an > equivalent app or functionality. Kivio is not much more than an upscale DIA > at best. It's close, but it's no Visio by any measure. Kivio is a step in > the right direction, but it requires installing the entire KOffice suite > just to get the one application you want, Kivio. > > > On Tue, 2009-05-19 at 21:51 +0200, David Van Assche wrote: > > hmmm.... what's an SBS? Anyway.... try kivio, works great, and if ureally want visio, use that using wine or crossover, whatever youprefer. I really don't see your issue here. If you are looking forsomething that works out of the box (ie... a linux based system, picka current distro and you are likely to get what you want, but for meopenSUSE, ubuntu, fedora, pcbsd, and Mandriva all work just fine outof the box) > On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 9:37 PM, Moon wrote:> Wasn't meant to insult, only point out the facts as I see them, and> obviously as others see them, reference the original web link comments.>> As I said in my original message, show me an SBS "equivalent" or one that> even comes close that works out of the box and I'll eat my words. Don't tell> me what you think, tell me which one is as good or better than SBS out of> the box. BTW, I'm aware of SME Server, ClarkConnect, eBox, SUSE's rendition,> and a host of other talk about SBS, like that on Ubuntu. But again, show me> one, just one that works out of the box.>> While you are at it, show me an equivalent to Visio in Linux, one that even> comes close, please... This application is the most popular voice/data> network documentation tool used in the IT industry. The best that Linux has> is DIA?>>>>> On Tue, 2009-05-19 at 11:25 -0600, David L. Willson wrote:>> ...>> obviously not basing their opinion on fact.>> Pretty insulting language, there. I think Linux is as ready for the desktop> as say, MacOS, and I'm basing that on fact, AFAIK.>>> I have been using Linux exclusively as my desktop platform for the>> past two years (willing to work through and around Linux desktop's>> shot comings) and can tell you honestly that there are a lot of>> shortcomings in Linux as a desktop client. Note that I have used>> CentOS, Fedora, and Ubuntu for the last four plus releases, as well as>> deployed K12LTSP and K12Linux in school labs for the past two plus>> years, so I have had extensive experience with the usability as well>> as issues with Linux.>> Same here, but longer.>>> Continuing to blindly favor and praise Linux desktop solely because of>> ones prejudices against Microsoft is foolishness ...>> Again, pretty insulting language. Isn't there a guide somewhere to> intelligently dissenting without insulting?>>> cause Linux to not address it's weaknesses and enhance it's usability>> for desktop users. Out of the box experience, what 90% of the>> computing user world experiences, determines their preferences, and if>> they have to go through Linux setup/configuration Hell to do it, guess>> what, they won't. Look at the statistics for the number of returned>> Linux based Netbook PCs vs Windows XP based Netbook PCs, that alone>> should tell us something.>> 'that people want a McComputer? That's what I get from it. And, where are> those statistics, so that I can look at them?>> And what Linux setup/configuration Hell are you talking about? Do people> build their own Windows PCs, and it's easier, or something? I've done both> many, many, many times, and they seem pretty similar in terms of complexity.> Linux compensates for the fact that Windows is on the box already, Windows> destroys Linux's ability to boot. Which is more Hellish?>>> It is in Linux best interest to seriously tune and optimize their>> desktop offerings. Secondly, Linux seriously needs a Small Business>> Server platform that competes with Microsoft's SBS. Continuing to>> ignore these two key areas will continue to be Linux Achilles heel to>> wider adoption.>> Linux has no best interest. The Linux community, or Free software> community, if you prefer, is a bunch of people and groups, each with their> own drivers. Many, but not all, of those people, are interested in the> things you infer that "Linux" is interested in, and they are doing exactly> what you suggest already. Read Shuttleworth's blog or the Ubuntu weekly> news or the Fedora weekly news or the OpenSUSE equivalent. You'll see.> Others in the community couldn't care less whether new users make the> switch; they only care about the quality of Linux, not it's attractive-ness> to Joe or Jane Windows-user as a design goal. I think that's where Red Hat> is. They're happy serving Linux users, and staying true to the Free> software thing, and being profitable, and that seems to be enough to worry> about.>> Have you checked out Zimbra? And, I think there a Linux SBS project out> there somewhere, and Ubuntu/eBox/et al really are doing a lot to commoditize> the more common server functions...>>> On Tue, 2009-05-19 at 10:00 -0600, David L. Willson wrote:>>>> I resemble that. For my part, I think Linux is completely ready for>> the desktop, but I'm not sure that the users are ready and I'm not>> sure that IT people are as ready as they think they are. So, my>> general-purpose advice is this: Go ahead and pilot Linux on the>> desktop, with an eye toward full deployment, but make darn sure you>> have a safety net: a Windows Terminal Server, a Virtual Machine, or a>> dual-boot handy for anything you might have overlooked. Working>> without a net is bad geekery. It scares users, and it should. Be>> humble. Serve the users that feed you. Study as hard as you can.>> Never, ever attack people, even when they're being "stupid" and>> "deserve it". --David ----- "Terrell Prude' Jr." <>> microman at cmosnetworks.com > wrote: > He's only done part of his>> homework. And some of those "points" are > just plain wrong. I smell>> an MCSE at work there.... > > --TP > > Alan Hodson wrote: > > Check>> out Tashkinov's article: >>> http://linuxfonts.narod.ru/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.html>> > > Serious food for thought! > > > > > > Alan A Hodson MEd. > >>> Instructional Applications Analyst > > El Paso Independent School>> District > > oF: 915-887-6871 > > fX: 915-772-4016 > >>> Nxt:915-892-0389 > > aahodson at episd.org > > http://links.episd.org/ >>> > Open Source Grokker > > http://tinyurl.com/3e4sh8 > > > > Life is>> not measured by the number of breaths we take, > > but by the moments>> that take our breath away > > -=o=- > > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > K12OSN mailing>> list > > K12OSN at redhat.com > >>> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > > For more info see <>> http://www.k12os.org > > > > >>> _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list>> > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn >>> For more info see < http://www.k12os.org >>> _______________________________________________ K12OSN mailing list>> K12OSN at redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn For>> more info see < http://www.k12os.org >>> _______________________________________________>> K12OSN mailing list>> K12OSN at redhat.com>> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn>> For more info see >> _______________________________________________> K12OSN mailing list> K12OSN at redhat.com> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn> For more info see >> _______________________________________________> K12OSN mailing list> K12OSN at redhat.com> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn> For more info see > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lesmikesell at gmail.com Tue May 19 23:06:56 2009 From: lesmikesell at gmail.com (Les Mikesell) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 18:06:56 -0500 Subject: [K12OSN] Scary article from Russia (w/o love) In-Reply-To: <1242767222.4071.100.camel@mws.localdomain> References: <17336033.26001242753948392.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> <1242761856.4071.78.camel@mws.localdomain> <4A13150A.8010304@gmail.com> <1242767222.4071.100.camel@mws.localdomain> Message-ID: <4A133B90.1010806@gmail.com> Moon wrote: > Linux client authentication, LDAP implementation, squidguard, any > application not in their contibs or howtos due to how they are > implemented through the templates. Did it claim to do any of those things? I don't think that constitutes "not working out of the box" - although I agree that it would be nice if all linux distributions included a working server setup to match their ldap client authentication schemes. Clarkconnect is supposed to be adding this in the release that is currently in beta, though. -- Les Mikesell lesmikesell at gmail.com From dvanassche at gmail.com Tue May 19 23:18:59 2009 From: dvanassche at gmail.com (David Van Assche) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 19:18:59 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] Scary article from Russia (w/o love) In-Reply-To: <4A133B90.1010806@gmail.com> References: <17336033.26001242753948392.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> <1242761856.4071.78.camel@mws.localdomain> <4A13150A.8010304@gmail.com> <1242767222.4071.100.camel@mws.localdomain> <4A133B90.1010806@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8cc423ef0905191618s33b3d975l18f2ed48eaaaad5c@mail.gmail.com> opensuse's LDAP works out of the box and is gui based, for both server and client. Its really very easy to set up... have a search and see... On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 7:06 PM, Les Mikesell wrote: > Moon wrote: > >> Linux client authentication, LDAP implementation, squidguard, any >> application not in their contibs or howtos due to how they are implemented >> through the templates. >> > > Did it claim to do any of those things? I don't think that constitutes > "not working out of the box" - although I agree that it would be nice if all > linux distributions included a working server setup to match their ldap > client authentication schemes. Clarkconnect is supposed to be adding this > in the release that is currently in beta, though. > > > -- > Les Mikesell > lesmikesell at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pxeboot at gmail.com Wed May 20 00:43:13 2009 From: pxeboot at gmail.com (Conrad Lawes) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 20:43:13 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] Scary article from Russia (w/o love) In-Reply-To: <8cc423ef0905191618s33b3d975l18f2ed48eaaaad5c@mail.gmail.com> References: <17336033.26001242753948392.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> <1242761856.4071.78.camel@mws.localdomain> <4A13150A.8010304@gmail.com> <1242767222.4071.100.camel@mws.localdomain> <4A133B90.1010806@gmail.com> <8cc423ef0905191618s33b3d975l18f2ed48eaaaad5c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: IMHO, Xandros Linux server 2.0 is the best Linux-based SBS solution with a 5-star out-the-box experience that can go toe-to-toe with M$. Frankly, I'm still surprise that it doesn't get the recognition that it so much deserves. Granted it's not free but sometimes free can be highly over-rated. I don't mind paying for value. http://www.xandros.com On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 7:18 PM, David Van Assche wrote: > opensuse's LDAP works out of the box and is gui based, for both server and > client. Its really very easy to set up... have a search and see... > > > On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 7:06 PM, Les Mikesell wrote: > >> Moon wrote: >> >>> Linux client authentication, LDAP implementation, squidguard, any >>> application not in their contibs or howtos due to how they are implemented >>> through the templates. >>> >> >> Did it claim to do any of those things? I don't think that constitutes >> "not working out of the box" - although I agree that it would be nice if all >> linux distributions included a working server setup to match their ldap >> client authentication schemes. Clarkconnect is supposed to be adding this >> in the release that is currently in beta, though. >> >> >> -- >> Les Mikesell >> lesmikesell at gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> K12OSN mailing list >> K12OSN at redhat.com >> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn >> For more info see >> > > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see > -- Regards, Conrad Lawes -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dvanassche at gmail.com Wed May 20 03:55:38 2009 From: dvanassche at gmail.com (David Van Assche) Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 23:55:38 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] Scary article from Russia (w/o love) In-Reply-To: <1242781801.4071.132.camel@mws.localdomain> References: <17336033.26001242753948392.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> <1242761856.4071.78.camel@mws.localdomain> <4A13150A.8010304@gmail.com> <1242767222.4071.100.camel@mws.localdomain> <4A133B90.1010806@gmail.com> <8cc423ef0905191618s33b3d975l18f2ed48eaaaad5c@mail.gmail.com> <1242781801.4071.132.camel@mws.localdomain> Message-ID: <8cc423ef0905192055q3e8561dam809bdeb438eca92e@mail.gmail.com> openSUSE will not be absorbed by MS in 2 years unless MS is going to be gpling all its stuff, which would be great for everyone, but will likely never happen. The novell deal is pretty irrelevant to the work being done on opensuse-edu. It is by far the best and most up to date edu distro currently available and has changed really seriosuly over the last 2 years. Take a look here: http://en.opensuse.org/Education This idea that its sellout somehow affects how good the open source software is or the community is, is quite silly... check the product for yourself... Ubuntu will take a LONG time before it has recovered from its steadly dwindling comunity in the education sector.... I know cause I'm part of that team too, but focus most of my time on opensuse-edu now, since that is where all the movement is happening. kind Regards, David (nubae) Van Assche On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 9:10 PM, Moon wrote: > I don't know if I would be that much better off using SUSE (Novell) based > or supported products, since Microsoft will probably absorb them within a > year or two. > > I've tried SUSE in the past, prior to their selling out back in late 2007, > but just didn't like the product overall compared to Red Hat (including > Fedora) and Debian (which includes Ubuntu) based products. They just didn't > seem to have a really polished product back then. > > To be honest I haven't been too interested in SUSE since they sold out to > the dark side. I think I'll wait for Ubuntu to get their solutions finalized > first. > > I do think that the ebox people have a good start challenging M$ in the SBS > market. > > > > > On Tue, 2009-05-19 at 19:18 -0400, David Van Assche wrote: > > opensuse's LDAP works out of the box and is gui based, for both server and > client. Its really very easy to set up... have a search and see... > > On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 7:06 PM, Les Mikesell > wrote: > > Moon wrote: > > Linux client authentication, LDAP implementation, squidguard, any > application not in their contibs or howtos due to how they are implemented > through the templates. > > > > Did it claim to do any of those things? I don't think that constitutes > "not working out of the box" - although I agree that it would be nice if all > linux distributions included a working server setup to match their ldap > client authentication schemes. Clarkconnect is supposed to be adding this > in the release that is currently in beta, though. > > > > > -- > Les Mikesell > lesmikesell at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From microman at cmosnetworks.com Wed May 20 05:26:37 2009 From: microman at cmosnetworks.com (Terrell Prude' Jr.) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 01:26:37 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] Scary article from Russia (w/o love) In-Reply-To: References: <17336033.26001242753948392.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> <1242761856.4071.78.camel@mws.localdomain> <4A13150A.8010304@gmail.com> <1242767222.4071.100.camel@mws.localdomain> <4A133B90.1010806@gmail.com> <8cc423ef0905191618s33b3d975l18f2ed48eaaaad5c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A13948D.5050909@cmosnetworks.com> Conrad, "Free" doesn't refer to price when we refer to free software. Rather, it refers to freedom. Think RHEL here. http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html --TP Conrad Lawes wrote: > IMHO, Xandros Linux server 2.0 is the best Linux-based SBS solution > with a 5-star out-the-box experience that can go toe-to-toe with M$. > Frankly, I'm still surprise that it doesn't get the recognition that > it so much deserves. Granted it's not free but sometimes free can be > highly over-rated. I don't mind paying for value. > > http://www.xandros.com > > > > On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 7:18 PM, David Van Assche > > wrote: > > opensuse's LDAP works out of the box and is gui based, for both > server and client. Its really very easy to set up... have a search > and see... > > > On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 7:06 PM, Les Mikesell > > wrote: > > Moon wrote: > > Linux client authentication, LDAP implementation, > squidguard, any application not in their contibs or howtos > due to how they are implemented through the templates. > > > Did it claim to do any of those things? I don't think that > constitutes "not working out of the box" - although I agree > that it would be nice if all linux distributions included a > working server setup to match their ldap client authentication > schemes. Clarkconnect is supposed to be adding this in the > release that is currently in beta, though. > > > -- > Les Mikesell > lesmikesell at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see > > > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see > > > > > -- > Regards, > Conrad Lawes > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see From lesmikesell at gmail.com Wed May 20 14:00:03 2009 From: lesmikesell at gmail.com (Les Mikesell) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 09:00:03 -0500 Subject: [K12OSN] Scary article from Russia (w/o love) In-Reply-To: <4A13948D.5050909@cmosnetworks.com> References: <17336033.26001242753948392.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> <1242761856.4071.78.camel@mws.localdomain> <4A13150A.8010304@gmail.com> <1242767222.4071.100.camel@mws.localdomain> <4A133B90.1010806@gmail.com> <8cc423ef0905191618s33b3d975l18f2ed48eaaaad5c@mail.gmail.com> <4A13948D.5050909@cmosnetworks.com> Message-ID: <4A140CE3.9060707@gmail.com> Terrell Prude' Jr. wrote: > Conrad, > > "Free" doesn't refer to price when we refer to free software. Rather, > it refers to freedom. Think RHEL here. > > http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html And there is a serious problem with this when you would like to be free to make your own choice about individual components and the GPL prevents anything with different restrictions from being included in a single work. -- Les Mikesell lesmikesell at gmail.com From microman at cmosnetworks.com Wed May 20 14:14:37 2009 From: microman at cmosnetworks.com (Terrell Prude' Jr.) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 10:14:37 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] Scary article from Russia (w/o love) In-Reply-To: <8cc423ef0905192055q3e8561dam809bdeb438eca92e@mail.gmail.com> References: <17336033.26001242753948392.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> <1242761856.4071.78.camel@mws.localdomain> <4A13150A.8010304@gmail.com> <1242767222.4071.100.camel@mws.localdomain> <4A133B90.1010806@gmail.com> <8cc423ef0905191618s33b3d975l18f2ed48eaaaad5c@mail.gmail.com> <1242781801.4071.132.camel@mws.localdomain> <8cc423ef0905192055q3e8561dam809bdeb438eca92e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A14104D.7040402@cmosnetworks.com> It's a shame that whatever good work is being done by some developers in openSUSE is overshadowed by Novell's act of treachery with Microsoft. Yep, that's what it is, so that's how I call it. You are correct that the sellout doesn't affect "how good the open source software is or the community is." Indeed, I've been running Red Hat Linux, Slackware, and Ubuntu for several years now, and I ditched IE for Mozilla 0.9 years ago. MS Office hasn't touched any of my own computers since 2003 (OpenOffice.org, baby!). I agree with you in that Open Source software, and the community around it, is wonderful. But, worst-case scenario, I would rather stick with K12LTSP 5EL (based on CentOS 5) until 2014 than use SUSE-anything. It's just too risky. We might as well just go with MS Windows and be done with it. Now, when Novell cuts off that deal and treats Microsoft like the enemy of freedom that it is (much like Red Hat treats Microsoft today), then I can revisit that position. But until then, SUSE-anything must be treated like the legal toxic waste that it has unfortunately become. Come on, Novell, rescind that deal! --TP David Van Assche wrote: > openSUSE will not be absorbed by MS in 2 years unless MS is going to > be gpling all its stuff, which would be great for everyone, but will > likely never happen. The novell deal is pretty irrelevant to the work > being done on opensuse-edu. It is by far the best and most up to date > edu distro currently available and has changed really seriosuly over > the last 2 years. Take a look here: http://en.opensuse.org/Education > This idea that its sellout somehow affects how good the open source > software is or the community is, is quite silly... check the product > for yourself... Ubuntu will take a LONG time before it has recovered > from its steadly dwindling comunity in the education sector.... I know > cause I'm part of that team too, but focus most of my time on > opensuse-edu now, since that is where all the movement is happening. > > kind Regards, > David (nubae) Van Assche > > On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 9:10 PM, Moon > wrote: > > I don't know if I would be that much better off using SUSE > (Novell) based or supported products, since Microsoft will > probably absorb them within a year or two. > > I've tried SUSE in the past, prior to their selling out back in > late 2007, but just didn't like the product overall compared to > Red Hat (including Fedora) and Debian (which includes Ubuntu) > based products. They just didn't seem to have a really polished > product back then. > > To be honest I haven't been too interested in SUSE since they sold > out to the dark side. I think I'll wait for Ubuntu to get their > solutions finalized first. > > I do think that the ebox people have a good start challenging M$ > in the SBS market. > > > > > On Tue, 2009-05-19 at 19:18 -0400, David Van Assche wrote: >> opensuse's LDAP works out of the box and is gui based, for both >> server and client. Its really very easy to set up... have a >> search and see... >> >> On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 7:06 PM, Les Mikesell >> > wrote: >> >> Moon wrote: >> >> Linux client authentication, LDAP implementation, >> squidguard, any application not in their contibs or >> howtos due to how they are implemented through the templates. >> >> >> >> Did it claim to do any of those things? I don't think that >> constitutes "not working out of the box" - although I agree >> that it would be nice if all linux distributions included a >> working server setup to match their ldap client >> authentication schemes. Clarkconnect is supposed to be >> adding this in the release that is currently in beta, though. >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Les Mikesell >> lesmikesell at gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> K12OSN mailing list >> K12OSN at redhat.com >> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn >> For more info see >> >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see From microman at cmosnetworks.com Wed May 20 14:15:10 2009 From: microman at cmosnetworks.com (Terrell Prude' Jr.) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 10:15:10 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] Scary article from Russia (w/o love) In-Reply-To: <4A140CE3.9060707@gmail.com> References: <17336033.26001242753948392.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> <1242761856.4071.78.camel@mws.localdomain> <4A13150A.8010304@gmail.com> <1242767222.4071.100.camel@mws.localdomain> <4A133B90.1010806@gmail.com> <8cc423ef0905191618s33b3d975l18f2ed48eaaaad5c@mail.gmail.com> <4A13948D.5050909@cmosnetworks.com> <4A140CE3.9060707@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A14106E.9010502@cmosnetworks.com> Les Mikesell wrote: > Terrell Prude' Jr. wrote: >> Conrad, >> >> "Free" doesn't refer to price when we refer to free software. >> Rather, it refers to freedom. Think RHEL here. >> >> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html > > And there is a serious problem with this when you would like to be > free to make your own choice about individual components and the GPL > prevents anything with different restrictions from being included in a > single work. > Huh? --TP From lesmikesell at gmail.com Wed May 20 14:30:05 2009 From: lesmikesell at gmail.com (Les Mikesell) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 09:30:05 -0500 Subject: [K12OSN] Scary article from Russia (w/o love) In-Reply-To: <4A14106E.9010502@cmosnetworks.com> References: <17336033.26001242753948392.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> <1242761856.4071.78.camel@mws.localdomain> <4A13150A.8010304@gmail.com> <1242767222.4071.100.camel@mws.localdomain> <4A133B90.1010806@gmail.com> <8cc423ef0905191618s33b3d975l18f2ed48eaaaad5c@mail.gmail.com> <4A13948D.5050909@cmosnetworks.com> <4A140CE3.9060707@gmail.com> <4A14106E.9010502@cmosnetworks.com> Message-ID: <4A1413ED.7050206@gmail.com> Terrell Prude' Jr. wrote: > > > Les Mikesell wrote: >> Terrell Prude' Jr. wrote: >>> Conrad, >>> >>> "Free" doesn't refer to price when we refer to free software. >>> Rather, it refers to freedom. Think RHEL here. >>> >>> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html >> >> And there is a serious problem with this when you would like to be >> free to make your own choice about individual components and the GPL >> prevents anything with different restrictions from being included in a >> single work. >> > > Huh? How do you propose that any existing technology covered by GPL-incompatible restrictions be combined in a single program with anything covered by the GPL? It can't - and you are forced to exclude one or the other. In cases covered only by copyright, there is the possibility of duplicating the work, but you can't do that with patents. Look at it this way: How many software patents are there? That's how many things can never be included in the Linux kernel unless someone arranges unlimited free distribution rights for each covered item. And this is regardless of the reasonableness of the terms of the patent or your own choices about the value vs. cost. -- Les Mikesell lesmikesell at mikesell From microman at cmosnetworks.com Wed May 20 14:38:39 2009 From: microman at cmosnetworks.com (Terrell Prude' Jr.) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 10:38:39 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] Scary article from Russia (w/o love) In-Reply-To: <4A1413ED.7050206@gmail.com> References: <17336033.26001242753948392.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> <1242761856.4071.78.camel@mws.localdomain> <4A13150A.8010304@gmail.com> <1242767222.4071.100.camel@mws.localdomain> <4A133B90.1010806@gmail.com> <8cc423ef0905191618s33b3d975l18f2ed48eaaaad5c@mail.gmail.com> <4A13948D.5050909@cmosnetworks.com> <4A140CE3.9060707@gmail.com> <4A14106E.9010502@cmosnetworks.com> <4A1413ED.7050206@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A1415EF.9070100@cmosnetworks.com> Les Mikesell wrote: > Terrell Prude' Jr. wrote: >> >> >> Les Mikesell wrote: >>> Terrell Prude' Jr. wrote: >>>> Conrad, >>>> >>>> "Free" doesn't refer to price when we refer to free software. >>>> Rather, it refers to freedom. Think RHEL here. >>>> >>>> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html >>> >>> And there is a serious problem with this when you would like to be >>> free to make your own choice about individual components and the GPL >>> prevents anything with different restrictions from being included in >>> a single work. >>> >> >> Huh? > > How do you propose that any existing technology covered by > GPL-incompatible restrictions be combined in a single program with > anything covered by the GPL? It can't - and you are forced to exclude > one or the other. In cases covered only by copyright, there is the > possibility of duplicating the work, but you can't do that with > patents. Look at it this way: How many software patents are there? > That's how many things can never be included in the Linux kernel > unless someone arranges unlimited free distribution rights for each > covered item. And this is regardless of the reasonableness of the > terms of the patent or your own choices about the value vs. cost. > Ooo-kaaayyy...we are now officially way, way off topic here.... --TP From accessys at smart.net Wed May 20 14:44:03 2009 From: accessys at smart.net (Accessys@smart.net) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 10:44:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [K12OSN] Scary article from Russia (w/o love) In-Reply-To: <4A1413ED.7050206@gmail.com> References: <17336033.26001242753948392.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> <1242761856.4071.78.camel@mws.localdomain> <4A13150A.8010304@gmail.com> <1242767222.4071.100.camel@mws.localdomain> <4A133B90.1010806@gmail.com> <8cc423ef0905191618s33b3d975l18f2ed48eaaaad5c@mail.gmail.com> <4A13948D.5050909@cmosnetworks.com> <4A140CE3.9060707@gmail.com> <4A14106E.9010502@cmosnetworks.com> <4A1413ED.7050206@gmail.com> Message-ID: this is true and I wouldn't mine being able to purchase linux compatable software packages a la carte for the ones that I need and/or find usefull to me. I have purchased VueScan for my Linux computer because I like that software package and it is avaliable for linux, but it seems to be the rare proprietary software program that has been converted to Linux and is avaliable to buy. there is nothing wrong with mixing GPL and proprietary software on ones personal computer it is when it is distributed to others that the problems occur. you cannot freely distribute proprietary software (usually) and the GPL stuff has to be freely avaliable. the problem is that the proprietary software makers will not for whatever reason for the most part make a linux compatible version. Bob On Wed, 20 May 2009, Les Mikesell wrote: > Terrell Prude' Jr. wrote: > > > > > > Les Mikesell wrote: > >> Terrell Prude' Jr. wrote: > >>> Conrad, > >>> > >>> "Free" doesn't refer to price when we refer to free software. > >>> Rather, it refers to freedom. Think RHEL here. > >>> > >>> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html > >> > >> And there is a serious problem with this when you would like to be > >> free to make your own choice about individual components and the GPL > >> prevents anything with different restrictions from being included in a > >> single work. > >> > > > > Huh? > > How do you propose that any existing technology covered by > GPL-incompatible restrictions be combined in a single program with > anything covered by the GPL? It can't - and you are forced to exclude > one or the other. In cases covered only by copyright, there is the > possibility of duplicating the work, but you can't do that with patents. > Look at it this way: How many software patents are there? That's how > many things can never be included in the Linux kernel unless someone > arranges unlimited free distribution rights for each covered item. And > this is regardless of the reasonableness of the terms of the patent or > your own choices about the value vs. cost. > > -- > Les Mikesell > lesmikesell at mikesell > > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see > - end ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ occasionally a true patriot must defend his country from its' government +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve Neither liberty nor safety", Benjamin Franklin - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ASCII Ribbon Campaign. . . . . . . . . . . . accessBob .NO HTML/PDF/RTF/MIME in e-mail. . . . . . . accessys at smartnospam.net .NO MSWord docs in e-mail . . . .. . . . . . Access Systems, engineers .NO attachments in e-mail, .*LINUX powered*. access is a civil right *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# THIS message and any attachments are CONFIDENTIAL and may be privileged. They are intended ONLY for the individual or entity named From lesmikesell at gmail.com Wed May 20 15:39:25 2009 From: lesmikesell at gmail.com (Les Mikesell) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 10:39:25 -0500 Subject: [K12OSN] Scary article from Russia (w/o love) In-Reply-To: <4A1415EF.9070100@cmosnetworks.com> References: <17336033.26001242753948392.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> <1242761856.4071.78.camel@mws.localdomain> <4A13150A.8010304@gmail.com> <1242767222.4071.100.camel@mws.localdomain> <4A133B90.1010806@gmail.com> <8cc423ef0905191618s33b3d975l18f2ed48eaaaad5c@mail.gmail.com> <4A13948D.5050909@cmosnetworks.com> <4A140CE3.9060707@gmail.com> <4A14106E.9010502@cmosnetworks.com> <4A1413ED.7050206@gmail.com> <4A1415EF.9070100@cmosnetworks.com> Message-ID: <4A14242D.8070106@gmail.com> Terrell Prude' Jr. wrote: > >> How do you propose that any existing technology covered by >> GPL-incompatible restrictions be combined in a single program with >> anything covered by the GPL? It can't - and you are forced to exclude >> one or the other. In cases covered only by copyright, there is the >> possibility of duplicating the work, but you can't do that with >> patents. Look at it this way: How many software patents are there? >> That's how many things can never be included in the Linux kernel >> unless someone arranges unlimited free distribution rights for each >> covered item. And this is regardless of the reasonableness of the >> terms of the patent or your own choices about the value vs. cost. >> > > Ooo-kaaayyy...we are now officially way, way off topic here.... Not really - the GPL is very directly related to what isn't, and can't be, available in Linux, and very much responsible the continuing prevalence of a proprietary monopoly. -- Les Mikesell lesmikesell at gmail.com From dvanassche at gmail.com Wed May 20 15:47:57 2009 From: dvanassche at gmail.com (David Van Assche) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 17:47:57 +0200 Subject: [K12OSN] Scary article from Russia (w/o love) In-Reply-To: References: <17336033.26001242753948392.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> <1242767222.4071.100.camel@mws.localdomain> <4A133B90.1010806@gmail.com> <8cc423ef0905191618s33b3d975l18f2ed48eaaaad5c@mail.gmail.com> <4A13948D.5050909@cmosnetworks.com> <4A140CE3.9060707@gmail.com> <4A14106E.9010502@cmosnetworks.com> <4A1413ED.7050206@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8cc423ef0905200847g540ff569y84cf1348ac6263e4@mail.gmail.com> Well everything on the opensuse-edu live dvd are totally gpl... so not sure what to say... So they made a deal with MS, so what? It has not and will now affect us directly probably ever. Novell is very behind supporting education and its buildservice is even GPL, so they are not exactly doing business like MS, they are just protecting themselves I suspect. But SLED and opensuse-edu are 2 different products, with different teams and different mind sets.. kind Regards, David Van Assche On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 4:44 PM, Accessys at smart.net wrote: > > this is true and I wouldn't mine being able to purchase linux > compatable software packages a la carte for the ones that I need > and/or find usefull to me. > > I have purchased VueScan for my Linux computer because I like that > software package and it is avaliable for linux, but it seems to be the > rare proprietary software program that has been converted to Linux and > is avaliable to buy. > > there is nothing wrong with mixing GPL and proprietary software on > ones personal computer it is when it is distributed to others that the > problems occur. you cannot freely distribute proprietary software > (usually) and the GPL stuff has to be freely avaliable. > > the problem is that the proprietary software makers will not for > whatever reason for the most part make a linux compatible version. > > Bob > > > > On Wed, 20 May 2009, Les Mikesell wrote: > > > Terrell Prude' Jr. wrote: > > > > > > > > > Les Mikesell wrote: > > >> Terrell Prude' Jr. wrote: > > >>> Conrad, > > >>> > > >>> "Free" doesn't refer to price when we refer to free software. > > >>> Rather, it refers to freedom. Think RHEL here. > > >>> > > >>> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html > > >> > > >> And there is a serious problem with this when you would like to be > > >> free to make your own choice about individual components and the GPL > > >> prevents anything with different restrictions from being included in a > > >> single work. > > >> > > > > > > Huh? > > > > How do you propose that any existing technology covered by > > GPL-incompatible restrictions be combined in a single program with > > anything covered by the GPL? It can't - and you are forced to exclude > > one or the other. In cases covered only by copyright, there is the > > possibility of duplicating the work, but you can't do that with patents. > > Look at it this way: How many software patents are there? That's how > > many things can never be included in the Linux kernel unless someone > > arranges unlimited free distribution rights for each covered item. And > > this is regardless of the reasonableness of the terms of the patent or > > your own choices about the value vs. cost. > > > > -- > > Les Mikesell > > lesmikesell at mikesell > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > K12OSN mailing list > > K12OSN at redhat.com > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > > For more info see > > > > - > end > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > occasionally a true patriot must defend his country from its' government > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary > safety deserve Neither liberty nor safety", Benjamin Franklin > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > ASCII Ribbon Campaign. . . . . . . . . . . . accessBob > .NO HTML/PDF/RTF/MIME in e-mail. . . . . . . accessys at smartnospam.net > .NO MSWord docs in e-mail . . . .. . . . . . Access Systems, engineers > .NO attachments in e-mail, .*LINUX powered*. access is a civil right > > *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# > THIS message and any attachments are CONFIDENTIAL and may be > privileged. They are intended ONLY for the individual or entity named > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From DLWillson at TheGeek.NU Wed May 20 15:56:42 2009 From: DLWillson at TheGeek.NU (David L. Willson) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 09:56:42 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [K12OSN] Scary article from Russia (w/o love) In-Reply-To: <23199185.26441242834358402.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> Message-ID: <29845938.26461242835002855.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> Which part of this system do you disagree with? There are lots of other licenses for authors to choose, many of which do not include preservation of freedom as a term of use. The GPL is not a mandate, it's something that makers of Free software choose to use to protect their work. Authors have the right to choose the license that best protects their work and reflects their social values. Would you deny that right? Do you make software? Finally, as a user, if you disagree principally with the GPL, you can choose to use BSD, or another, more liberally licensed kernel. The wonderful thing about this sector is it's Freedom. Freedom to choose, in this case. ----- "Les Mikesell" wrote: > And there is a serious problem with this when you would like to be > free > to make your own choice about individual components and the GPL > prevents > anything with different restrictions from being included in a single > work. From lesmikesell at gmail.com Wed May 20 16:47:05 2009 From: lesmikesell at gmail.com (Les Mikesell) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 11:47:05 -0500 Subject: [K12OSN] Scary article from Russia (w/o love) In-Reply-To: <29845938.26461242835002855.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> References: <29845938.26461242835002855.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> Message-ID: <4A143409.9070507@gmail.com> David L. Willson wrote: > Which part of this system do you disagree with? The part that misrepresents GPL software as 'free' when in fact it is very restricted in terms of how it can be improved. > There are lots of other licenses for authors to choose, many of which do not include preservation of freedom as a term of use. Yes, other licenses do not misrepresent restrictions as freedom. >The GPL is not a mandate, it's something that makers of Free software choose to use to protect their work. And it makes sense if your intent is to prevent improvements that compete with your own offering. But restricting improvements has and continues to hurt everyone else. > Authors have the right to choose the license that best protects their work and reflects their social values. Would you deny that right? Of course license restrictions should be up to the authors within the constraints that copyright and patent laws apply. But those restrictions don't have to be misrepresented as freedom when in fact they are just restrictions. > Do you make software? I tried to give some away once, but was prevented from sharing it because it included a GPL component and also needed other libraries that were redistributable at no cost but under terms that did not match the GPL restrictions. But, I'm more interested in using software than making or distributing it. > Finally, as a user, if you disagree principally with the GPL, you can choose to use BSD, or another, more liberally licensed kernel. Or, you can simply be forced to continue to support the proprietary monopoly business because the GPL restrictions prevent covered works from being improved to a point where they are competitive. Like 95% or so of the population does... I'm seriously convinced that Richard Stallman has done more to keep Microsoft rich than anyone else. Look, for example at the effort he made to hold java development back while MS has advanced .net. > The wonderful thing about this sector is it's Freedom. Freedom to choose, in this case. With the GPL, only one person actually gets the freedom to choose. Everyone else has to follow its restrictions which prevent any other choices. Note the contrast with commercial licenses which allow you to choose components individually and combine as you like as long as you individually meet their terms. -- Les Mikesell lesmikesell at gmail.com From jthomas at bittware.com Wed May 20 17:02:53 2009 From: jthomas at bittware.com (j.w. thomas) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 13:02:53 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] Scary article from Russia (w/o love) In-Reply-To: <4A143409.9070507@gmail.com> References: <29845938.26461242835002855.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> <4A143409.9070507@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A1437BD.5050307@bittware.com> Les Mikesell wrote: > David L. Willson wrote: >> Which part of this system do you disagree with? > > The part that misrepresents GPL software as 'free' when in fact it is > very restricted in terms of how it can be improved. > This is like saying that the US Constitution sucks because it prevents the government from restricting speech. The freedom guaranteed by the GPL is the user's freedom, not the developers. The government of Myanmar is "free" to jail people for political dissent. -- Jim Thomas Principal Applications Engineer Bittware, Inc jthomas at bittware.com http://www.bittware.com (603) 226-0404 x536 Getting an inch of snow is like winning ten cents in the lottery - Calvin From microman at cmosnetworks.com Wed May 20 17:05:21 2009 From: microman at cmosnetworks.com (Terrell Prude' Jr.) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 13:05:21 -0400 Subject: GPL-vs-BSD Holy War (was: [K12OSN] Scary article from Russia (w/o love)) In-Reply-To: <4A143409.9070507@gmail.com> References: <29845938.26461242835002855.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> <4A143409.9070507@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A143851.500@cmosnetworks.com> Folks, this does not need to become yet another GPL-vs-BSD holy war, and I see that coming. Let's keep it to K12. --TP Les Mikesell wrote: > David L. Willson wrote: >> Which part of this system do you disagree with? > > The part that misrepresents GPL software as 'free' when in fact it is > very restricted in terms of how it can be improved. > >> There are lots of other licenses for authors to choose, many of which >> do not include preservation of freedom as a term of use. > > Yes, other licenses do not misrepresent restrictions as freedom. > >> The GPL is not a mandate, it's something that makers of Free software >> choose to use to protect their work. > > And it makes sense if your intent is to prevent improvements that > compete with your own offering. But restricting improvements has and > continues to hurt everyone else. > >> Authors have the right to choose the license that best protects their >> work and reflects their social values. Would you deny that right? > > Of course license restrictions should be up to the authors within the > constraints that copyright and patent laws apply. But those > restrictions don't have to be misrepresented as freedom when in fact > they are just restrictions. > >> Do you make software? > > I tried to give some away once, but was prevented from sharing it > because it included a GPL component and also needed other libraries > that were redistributable at no cost but under terms that did not > match the GPL restrictions. But, I'm more interested in using > software than making or distributing it. > >> Finally, as a user, if you disagree principally with the GPL, you can >> choose to use BSD, or another, more liberally licensed kernel. > > Or, you can simply be forced to continue to support the proprietary > monopoly business because the GPL restrictions prevent covered works > from being improved to a point where they are competitive. Like 95% > or so of the population does... I'm seriously convinced that Richard > Stallman has done more to keep Microsoft rich than anyone else. Look, > for example at the effort he made to hold java development back while > MS has advanced .net. > >> The wonderful thing about this sector is it's Freedom. Freedom to >> choose, in this case. > > With the GPL, only one person actually gets the freedom to choose. > Everyone else has to follow its restrictions which prevent any other > choices. Note the contrast with commercial licenses which allow you > to choose components individually and combine as you like as long as > you individually meet their terms. > From DLWillson at TheGeek.NU Wed May 20 17:29:28 2009 From: DLWillson at TheGeek.NU (David L. Willson) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 11:29:28 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [K12OSN] Scary article from Russia (w/o love) In-Reply-To: <4A143409.9070507@gmail.com> Message-ID: <734136.26491242840568734.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> I certainly understand part of your point of view, but not the coercion part... You don't like the GPL because it claims to defend freedom? That's fine, you may define the word however you like, and you have the right to be offended at it's "misuse". What point is there in Linux's existence, in your perspective? What is it's key differentiator? Is it just another MacOS or another Windows, or is there something more to it? Is Linux an integral part of the Free software "thing" or is it just a free (as in cheap) operating system? For my part, I'm pretty sure there's an important principle being protected by the GPL. I'm really confused about your last statement, with regard to your use of the word "forced". You said: > Or, you can simply be forced to continue to support the proprietary > monopoly business because the GPL restrictions prevent covered works > from being improved to a point where they are competitive. Like 95% > or > so of the population does... [...] > With the GPL, only one person actually gets the freedom to choose. > Everyone else has to follow its restrictions which prevent any other > choices. [...] I think you're just plain wrong on the first one. Many GPL products are beautifully done and very competitive. Let's take Red Hat, for example. They seem to be providing a worthy product. Same with Ubuntu and OpenSUSE. But that's where we have that difference of opinion. You seem to think GPL'd products suck, because of the defining principle, and I think they rock, for exactly the same reason. I ~like~ choosing my desktop environment. I don't want KDE or GNOME to fold into the other. I like the fact that Ubuntu, Fedora, and OpenSUSE all smell and taste a little different. I ~like~ the fact there are some restrictions on packing in proprietary code. I also like the fact that I can buy and install and run all the proprietary code I want, after the fact. I like the fact that Linux is Linux, and that it is not MacOS or Windows. I don't want it to be either one. And if winning the desktop were to require "selling out" on core principles... Let me put it this way: If all Linux was, was freeware, or public domain, if authors couldn't protect their work from proprietization, if it ever goes there, Linux has lost, even if Microsoft goes away and the thing that is then called Linux has 85% (or 95% or whatever it is). Linux is Free and protected to remain so. If you want something "free-er", by your definition, try BSD or something else. There is a lot of product out there that is freeware/public-domain/LGPL/etc... I also think you're mistaken about the 95% of the people that use Windows. They're not forced ~and~ they don't choose intentionally. They just take the default, by and large. Most people want a McComputer, and they don't care about the computer or the OS. They don't realize (or care) that cars and McComputers are fundamentally different, in that car sales are competed for, where OS sales are (by and large) not. I'd be happy to see stats that prove me wrong, though. And last, how does an author's choice of license restrict anyone but those that agree that his product is worth using, under that license? Do people --David ----- "Les Mikesell" wrote: > David L. Willson wrote: > > Which part of this system do you disagree with? > > The part that misrepresents GPL software as 'free' when in fact it is > > very restricted in terms of how it can be improved. > > > There are lots of other licenses for authors to choose, many of > which do not include preservation of freedom as a term of use. > > Yes, other licenses do not misrepresent restrictions as freedom. > > >The GPL is not a mandate, it's something that makers of Free software > choose to use to > With the GPL, only one person actually gets the freedom to choose. > Everyone else has to follow its restrictions which prevent any other > choices. Note the contrast with commercial licenses which allow you > to > choose components individually and combine as you like as long as you > > individually meet their terms.protect their work. > > And it makes sense if your intent is to prevent improvements that > compete with your own offering. But restricting improvements has and > > continues to hurt everyone else. > > > Authors have the right to choose the license that best protects > their work and reflects their social values. Would you deny that > right? > > Of course license restrictions should be up to the authors within the > > constraints that copyright and patent laws apply. But those > restrictions don't have to be misrepresented as freedom when in fact > they are just restrictions. > > > Do you make software? > > I tried to give some away once, but was prevented from sharing it > because it included a GPL component and also needed other libraries > that > were redistributable at no cost but under terms that did not match the > > GPL restrictions. But, I'm more interested in using software than > making or distributing it. > > > Finally, as a user, if you disagree principally with the GPL, you > can choose to use BSD, or another, more liberally licensed kernel. > > Or, you can simply be forced to continue to support the proprietary > monopoly business because the GPL restrictions prevent covered works > from being improved to a point where they are competitive. Like 95% > or > so of the population does... I'm seriously convinced that Richard > Stallman has done more to keep Microsoft rich than anyone else. Look, > > for example at the effort he made to hold java development back while > MS > has advanced .net. > > > The wonderful thing about this sector is it's Freedom. Freedom to > choose, in this case. > > With the GPL, only one person actually gets the freedom to choose. > Everyone else has to follow its restrictions which prevent any other > choices. Note the contrast with commercial licenses which allow you > to > choose components individually and combine as you like as long as you > > individually meet their terms. > > -- > Les Mikesell > lesmikesell at gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see From lesmikesell at gmail.com Wed May 20 19:05:05 2009 From: lesmikesell at gmail.com (Les Mikesell) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 14:05:05 -0500 Subject: [K12OSN] Scary article from Russia (w/o love) In-Reply-To: <734136.26491242840568734.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> References: <734136.26491242840568734.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> Message-ID: <4A145461.2000909@gmail.com> David L. Willson wrote: > I certainly understand part of your point of view, but not the coercion part... Start from the perspective of having once built a piece of software that combined freely available components, then being prohibited from sharing it because the GPL-covered component, deceptively calling itself free, restricted distribution with the other parts unless its own restrictions could be imposed on them. > What point is there in Linux's existence, in your perspective? What is it's key differentiator? Is it just another MacOS or another Windows, or is there something more to it? Is Linux an integral part of the Free software "thing" or is it just a free (as in cheap) operating system? Linux gained its popularity because *bsd code was involved in a lawsuit from AT&T at the time. The bsd base was clearly a better design and work on it benefits everyone - including all the parts that were copied into Linux. However, that's a one way trip. Developments for Linux are restricted by the GPL from being used in many other situations and thus can't be combined with concurrent work in other components like zfs. As a user, I consider affordable and complete software to be the real objective and the GPL is an impediment to that since it prevents the covered works which could be used to reduce the cost of competitive alternatives from being combined with anything else as a derived work. > For my part, I'm pretty sure there's an important principle being protected by the GPL. At the cost of keeping a monopoly in business. > > I'm really confused about your last statement, with regard to your use of the word "forced". You said: >> Or, you can simply be forced to continue to support the proprietary >> monopoly business because the GPL restrictions prevent covered works >> from being improved to a point where they are competitive. Like 95% >> or >> so of the population does... > [...] >> With the GPL, only one person actually gets the freedom to choose. >> Everyone else has to follow its restrictions which prevent any other >> choices. > [...] > > I think you're just plain wrong on the first one. Statistics? > Many GPL products are beautifully done and very competitive. But as the posting that started this thread correctly stated, incomplete. > Let's take Red Hat, for example. They seem to be providing a worthy product. Same with Ubuntu and OpenSUSE. Don't confuse the contents of a distribution with GPL-covered material. You can aggregate separate programs in the same distribution and all distributions include bsd/mit/mpl/apache/cddl covered material too. The restriction is on any single thing that might be considered a derived work under copyright law, and if those contain any GPL code at all, it must all be covered by a GPL-compatible license. > But that's where we have that difference of opinion. You seem to think GPL'd products suck, because of the defining principle, and I think they rock, for exactly the same reason. No, I don't think GPL'd products suck. I think it sucks that the code that comprises them is restricted from being improved and reused in many other potential ways. Imagine if the *bsd networking code had such restrictions - we would almost certainly not have anything like the interoperability we see on the internet today. > I ~like~ choosing my desktop environment. I don't want KDE or GNOME to fold into the other. That's not particularly relevant, but what if also you had choices where new teams could combine the best elements of both? You can't ever have that choice where one part is GPL'd and the other not. While it is the author's right to keep it from you, I don't understand why anyone likes it. > I ~like~ the fact there are some restrictions on packing in proprietary code. I also like the fact that I can buy and install and run all the proprietary code I want, after the fact. First, the restrictions are not on 'proprietary' code - they are on any code that doesn't exactly meet the GPL restrictions and affects code which actually is free as well. Also there are things that belong in the kernel that are covered by other terms and you can't add them on. > If all Linux was, was freeware, or public domain, if authors couldn't protect their work from proprietization, if it ever goes there, Linux has lost, even if Microsoft goes away and the thing that is then called Linux has 85% (or 95% or whatever it is). Linux is Free and protected to remain so. If you want something "free-er", by your definition, try BSD or something else. There is a lot of product out there that is freeware/public-domain/LGPL/etc... The only reason anyone would need to 'protect' against other improved works would be if you expect them to be enough better than the original that everyone would switch. And why would you not want people to have a choice to use a better product? > I also think you're mistaken about the 95% of the people that use Windows. They're not forced ~and~ they don't choose intentionally. So what was the alternative over the last 10 or 15 years? What is it now if only proprietary drivers are available for a hardware component? > They just take the default, by and large. Most people want a McComputer, and they don't care about the computer or the OS. They don't realize (or care) that cars and McComputers are fundamentally different, in that car sales are competed for, where OS sales are (by and large) not. Yes, the non-competitive situation has been maintained by the GPL restrictions as much as anything else since that code can't be used to lower the bar to building a compete alternative. > And last, how does an author's choice of license restrict anyone but those that agree that his product is worth using, under that license? Do people In a large software project, getting the first working code released is about 10% of the job. If that code is covered by the GPL, the other people who want to contribute to an actual usable version have no choice about the terms on their own work that will eventually constitute the other 90% and there is no choice about the use of other library components that might be used for additional features. -- Les Mikesell lesmikesell at gmail.com From DLWillson at TheGeek.NU Wed May 20 19:22:48 2009 From: DLWillson at TheGeek.NU (David L. Willson) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 13:22:48 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [K12OSN] Scary article from Russia (w/o love) In-Reply-To: <4A145461.2000909@gmail.com> Message-ID: <16927222.26641242847368592.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> Somebody else called this a repeat of a Linux vs. BSD debate. I'm sorry for engaging, but I was unaware that it was a repeat. Call me lazy, but I want to ask or re-ask what I think is the fundamental question of the debate, at least from the Linux side: In the previous debates was the BSD proponent ever asked why they rail at the GPL/Linux for problems that are resolved in BSD, rather than just switching to BSD? IOW, if you want BSD, why don't you use it? By your own reasoning, it's free-er, and the model produces, or will produce, better, more complete, more popular product. Let Linux be Linux and BSD be BSD, and no hard feelings? It is every author's right to choose their target platform(s) and license(s) for distribution. I don't gritch that MS uses the license they use; I just decline to load their ..... Their choice; my choice. No hard feelings. --David ----- "Les Mikesell" wrote: > David L. Willson wrote: > > > I certainly understand part of your point of view, but not the > coercion part... > > Start from the perspective of having once built a piece of software > that > combined freely available components, then being prohibited from > sharing > it because the GPL-covered component, deceptively calling itself free, > > restricted distribution with the other parts unless its own > restrictions > could be imposed on them. > > > What point is there in Linux's existence, in your perspective? What > is it's key differentiator? Is it just another MacOS or another > Windows, or is there something more to it? Is Linux an integral part > of the Free software "thing" or is it just a free (as in cheap) > operating system? > > Linux gained its popularity because *bsd code was involved in a > lawsuit > from AT&T at the time. The bsd base was clearly a better design and > work on it benefits everyone - including all the parts that were > copied > into Linux. However, that's a one way trip. Developments for Linux > are > restricted by the GPL from being used in many other situations and > thus > can't be combined with concurrent work in other components like zfs. > > As a user, I consider affordable and complete software to be the real > > objective and the GPL is an impediment to that since it prevents the > covered works which could be used to reduce the cost of competitive > alternatives from being combined with anything else as a derived > work. > > > For my part, I'm pretty sure there's an important principle being > protected by the GPL. > > At the cost of keeping a monopoly in business. > > > > > I'm really confused about your last statement, with regard to your > use of the word "forced". You said: > >> Or, you can simply be forced to continue to support the proprietary > > >> monopoly business because the GPL restrictions prevent covered > works > >> from being improved to a point where they are competitive. Like > 95% > >> or > >> so of the population does... > > [...] > >> With the GPL, only one person actually gets the freedom to choose. > > >> Everyone else has to follow its restrictions which prevent any > other > >> choices. > > [...] > > > > I think you're just plain wrong on the first one. > > Statistics? > > > Many GPL products are beautifully done and very competitive. > > But as the posting that started this thread correctly stated, > incomplete. > > > Let's take Red Hat, for example. They seem to be providing a > worthy product. Same with Ubuntu and OpenSUSE. > > Don't confuse the contents of a distribution with GPL-covered > material. > You can aggregate separate programs in the same distribution and all > > distributions include bsd/mit/mpl/apache/cddl covered material too. > The > restriction is on any single thing that might be considered a derived > > work under copyright law, and if those contain any GPL code at all, it > > must all be covered by a GPL-compatible license. > > > But that's where we have that difference of opinion. You seem to > think GPL'd products suck, because of the defining principle, and I > think they rock, for exactly the same reason. > > No, I don't think GPL'd products suck. I think it sucks that the code > > that comprises them is restricted from being improved and reused in > many > other potential ways. Imagine if the *bsd networking code had such > restrictions - we would almost certainly not have anything like the > interoperability we see on the internet today. > > > I ~like~ choosing my desktop environment. I don't want KDE or > GNOME to fold into the other. > > That's not particularly relevant, but what if also you had choices > where > new teams could combine the best elements of both? You can't ever > have > that choice where one part is GPL'd and the other not. While it is > the > author's right to keep it from you, I don't understand why anyone > likes it. > > > I ~like~ the fact there are some restrictions on packing in > proprietary code. I also like the fact that I can buy and install and > run all the proprietary code I want, after the fact. > > First, the restrictions are not on 'proprietary' code - they are on > any > code that doesn't exactly meet the GPL restrictions and affects code > which actually is free as well. Also there are things that belong in > > the kernel that are covered by other terms and you can't add them on. > > > If all Linux was, was freeware, or public domain, if authors > couldn't protect their work from proprietization, if it ever goes > there, Linux has lost, even if Microsoft goes away and the thing that > is then called Linux has 85% (or 95% or whatever it is). Linux is > Free and protected to remain so. If you want something "free-er", by > your definition, try BSD or something else. There is a lot of product > out there that is freeware/public-domain/LGPL/etc... > > The only reason anyone would need to 'protect' against other improved > > works would be if you expect them to be enough better than the > original > that everyone would switch. And why would you not want people to have > a > choice to use a better product? > > > I also think you're mistaken about the 95% of the people that use > Windows. They're not forced ~and~ they don't choose intentionally. > > So what was the alternative over the last 10 or 15 years? What is it > > now if only proprietary drivers are available for a hardware > component? > > > They just take the default, by and large. Most people want a > McComputer, and they don't care about the computer or the OS. They > don't realize (or care) that cars and McComputers are fundamentally > different, in that car sales are competed for, where OS sales are (by > and large) not. > > Yes, the non-competitive situation has been maintained by the GPL > restrictions as much as anything else since that code can't be used to > > lower the bar to building a compete alternative. > > > And last, how does an author's choice of license restrict anyone but > those that agree that his product is worth using, under that license? > Do people > > In a large software project, getting the first working code released > is > about 10% of the job. If that code is covered by the GPL, the other > people who want to contribute to an actual usable version have no > choice > about the terms on their own work that will eventually constitute the > > other 90% and there is no choice about the use of other library > components that might be used for additional features. > > -- > Les Mikesell > lesmikesell at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see From wtogami at redhat.com Wed May 20 19:58:07 2009 From: wtogami at redhat.com (Warren Togami) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 15:58:07 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] Scary article from Russia (w/o love) In-Reply-To: <16927222.26641242847368592.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> References: <16927222.26641242847368592.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> Message-ID: <4A1460CF.5080000@redhat.com> Is it really necessary to discuss this at all on this list? The target audience that you are trying to win over to use K12*, LTSP or Linux in schools does not care about ideological issues. They only care about what it does. Endless discussions about ideological issues will only scare people away. Warren Togami wtogami at redhat.com From scott at hosef.org Wed May 20 20:23:07 2009 From: scott at hosef.org (R. Scott Belford) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 10:23:07 -1000 Subject: [K12OSN] Scary article from Russia (w/o love) In-Reply-To: <4A1460CF.5080000@redhat.com> References: <16927222.26641242847368592.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> <4A1460CF.5080000@redhat.com> Message-ID: Anytime Les Mikesell has an opinion, I read it. Period. End of discussion. I know of no other human that has reliably served the K12LTSP community any more than Les. I think that when half of us ask questions to this list, we are secretly hoping that Les is reading. So, on the subject of why gnu/linux is not the best thing in the world, it's no surprise that the discussion progressed to collaboration with software code. I have found this to be brilliant, enlightening, generally civil, and educational. If you are not a developer, then you can skip this thread. If you are curious about the dynamics behind software evolution, then this is compelling reading. I have never considered the GPL as restricting freedom. This is a new and educational perspective. I understand that in the pursuit of perfect code, some projects cannot borrow from others due to the licensing restrictions. I'm a user, though, and not a developer. I love and am romanticized by the principles of the GPL and Stallman because I want my software "free." However, I want it to be great, too, If I need to intellectually grasp the dynamics behind software collaboration in order to help make it better, then I am grateful for this discussion. It's all about finding the opportunity for collaboration, or, gracefully accepting and respecting that the *evolving* licensing ecosystem is not always conducive to collaboration. --scott From ltsp at dunc-it.com Thu May 21 12:40:02 2009 From: ltsp at dunc-it.com (C. Duncan Hudson) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 08:40:02 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] No screen saver Message-ID: <4A154BA2.20904@dunc-it.com> I'm running Fedora 10 (2.6.27 x86_64) and ltsp K12 5.1.58. All of my users have screensavers configured, but their screen savers never start. It doesn't matter how long I wait (even the whole weekend), none of the screens ever blank or lock. Is there a trick to getting screen savers to work with LTSP 5, it used to work fine with 4.2. Dunc From lesmikesell at gmail.com Thu May 21 18:36:25 2009 From: lesmikesell at gmail.com (Les Mikesell) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 13:36:25 -0500 Subject: [K12OSN] Scary article from Russia (w/o love) In-Reply-To: References: <16927222.26641242847368592.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> <4A1460CF.5080000@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4A159F29.1030008@gmail.com> R. Scott Belford wrote: > Anytime Les Mikesell has an opinion, I read it. Period. End of > discussion. I know of no other human that has reliably served the > K12LTSP community any more than Les. I think that when half of us ask > questions to this list, we are secretly hoping that Les is reading. > > So, on the subject of why gnu/linux is not the best thing in the > world, it's no surprise that the discussion progressed to > collaboration with software code. I have found this to be brilliant, > enlightening, generally civil, and educational. If you are not a > developer, then you can skip this thread. If you are curious about > the dynamics behind software evolution, then this is compelling > reading. > > I have never considered the GPL as restricting freedom. This is a new > and educational perspective. I understand that in the pursuit of > perfect code, some projects cannot borrow from others due to the > licensing restrictions. I've actually never used k12ltsp in the way it was intended other than playing with a few old PCs as thin clients. The thing that attracted me to the distribution was the fact that it included things or scripts to install things that the stock distros didn't even admit existed (a packaged Sun java, decent fonts, acrobat, flash, realplayer, etc.). That is, it had the right pragmatic approach to getting work done with the best tools available - and helping others do the same. Ubuntu may match this now, but remember this was years ago. > I'm a user, though, and not a developer. I love and am romanticized > by the principles of the GPL and Stallman because I want my software > "free." However, I want it to be great, too, If I need to > intellectually grasp the dynamics behind software collaboration in > order to help make it better, then I am grateful for this discussion. On the philosophical side, just consider how you and just about everyone else have benefited from the unrestricted availability of the reference TCP/IP code - and how things might have turned out if it had been encumbered with the GPL restrictions that make commercial products problematic. The same principle applies to all other reusable code - there is no 'up' side to restricting distribution or use - all that can come out of it is having to use something worse. -- Les Mikesell lesmikesell at gmail.com From dtrask at vcsvikings.org Fri May 22 02:13:55 2009 From: dtrask at vcsvikings.org (David Trask) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 22:13:55 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] FOSSed 2009 only a few weeks away! Open 1to1 announced! Message-ID: Hello everyone! The 2009 FOSSed conference (Free and Open Source Software in Education) is only a few weeks away! June 24th - 26th at Gould Academy in Bethel, Maine. The school year is winding down and now it's time to begin planning for the future. Times are tough and budgets are tight, but we have the sessions and presentations to help you out! FOSSed has been providing excellent professional development opportunties for folks just like you for 7 years! Learn new ideas that can save your schools money, increase student learning and access to technology, and revitalize your technology offerings! Yes! You are entitled to professional development! Come, relax, and learn! FOSSed is a unique hands-on opportunity for you and your team. Open 1to1 initiative Today was the official announcement of the Open 1to1 project. Open 1to1 is an effort to provide technical support, expertise, professional development and a community to help schools that are tackling one to one netbook or laptop deployments. You can view the announcement here and visit the Open 1 to 1 web site here http://www.open1to1.org. This is an exciting time in technology! Open 1 to 1 aims to give folks the tools to make their netbook/laptop deployment sucessful. So....what does that mean for FOSSed? This year we'll offer several session for those who are beginning or considering a one to one netbook/laptop deployment. Imaging/deployment, care and use, server technologies, infrastructure/management....these will be addressed as part of our offerings at FOSSed to help get you on the right track for your project! Sugar on a Stick! This year we're excited to welcome [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Bender ]Walter Bender and Caroline Meeks of SugarLabs! They will be showing Sugar the new operating system designed for exploratory education and how you can have your whole educational environment boot from a USB flash drive. From the Sugarlabs website: "Sugar provides a simple yet powerful means of engaging young children in the world of learning that is opened up by computers and the Internet. With Sugar, even the youngest learner will quickly become proficient in using the computer as a tool to engage in authentic problem-solving. Sugar promotes sharing, collaborative learning, and reflection, developing skills that help them in all aspects of life." (for those who are familiar with the One Laptop Per Child, Sugar is the interface for the OLPC) http://www.sugarlabs.org Good news for ACTEM members! At the recent ACTEM business meeting, ACTEM voted to add additional monies to the professional development budget to accomodate anyone wishing to take advantage of the $400 professional development benefit this year. Remember, the fiscal year ends June 30th, but that's just in time for FOSSed! ACTEM is a generous sponsor of FOSSed and encourages its members to take advantage of this membership benefit. The FOSSed conference is just $495 (on campus) and $455 (off campus) and the fees include everything! Meals, rooms, conference....everything. We take the worry and hassle out of attending...you just show up and bring your enthusiasm! The ACTEM web site has all the details! http://www.actem.org/Pages/ACTEM_ProDev/index We're flexible! Need special payment arrangements? Planning to be reimbursed, but can't go without your money for very long? Need to pay by credit card? Need special billing after July 1st? Let us know...we can help! We want YOU at FOSSed 2009....it's that important.... :-) Teachers, techies, integrationists, admins....we have something for everyone! So...please join us this year for FOSSed 2009! Register today! Visit our site at http://www.fossed.com for more information, flyers, pics, and more! Register soon....FOSSed will be here before you know it! David Trask FOSSed 2009 Copperdog Consulting & Training copperdoggy at gmail.com (207) 446-2738 David N. Trask Technology Teacher/Director Vassalboro Community School dtrask at vcsvikings.org (207)923-3100 (207)923-4305 (direct) From robark at gmail.com Fri May 22 02:05:46 2009 From: robark at gmail.com (Robert Arkiletian) Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 19:05:46 -0700 Subject: [K12OSN] Great Article: Ex-MS Employee Message-ID: http://tinyurl.com/ex-ms-emp -- Robert Arkiletian Eric Hamber Secondary, Vancouver, Canada From baci at harborcityschool.org Fri May 22 14:43:58 2009 From: baci at harborcityschool.org (Chris Bacigalupo) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 09:43:58 -0500 Subject: [K12OSN] wall mart wall wort as app or profile server? In-Reply-To: <4A143409.9070507@gmail.com> References: <29845938.26461242835002855.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> <4A143409.9070507@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A16BA2E.8030706@harborcityschool.org> anyone every think about this? http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/22/1410227 From microman at cmosnetworks.com Fri May 22 15:11:03 2009 From: microman at cmosnetworks.com (Terrell Prude' Jr.) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 11:11:03 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] wall mart wall wort as app or profile server? In-Reply-To: <4A16BA2E.8030706@harborcityschool.org> References: <29845938.26461242835002855.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> <4A143409.9070507@gmail.com> <4A16BA2E.8030706@harborcityschool.org> Message-ID: <4A16C087.4080907@cmosnetworks.com> Actually, I'd like to see a VGA port on it. Then we have the ultimate (i. e. really small) cheap thin client. No, that wouldn't make the device much bigger. Some lower-end (but good enough) graphics chip like an ATI Radeon 7500 or 8500 that is known to work well with the Free Software drivers in X11. Man, that'd be sweet.... --TP Chris Bacigalupo wrote: > anyone every think about this? > > http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/22/1410227 > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see From william at fragakis.com Fri May 22 16:10:15 2009 From: william at fragakis.com (William Fragakis) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 12:10:15 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] via82xx sound (or lack thereof) In-Reply-To: <20090519193805.F23D68E0027@hormel.redhat.com> References: <20090519193805.F23D68E0027@hormel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1243008615.2912.39.camel@server.ltsp> Hi, I'm trying to use a pretty robust PC as a client but I can't get sound. The sound chip is a via 8237. The module loads correctly (I've checked with lsmod) and I've even fooled around with various dxs settings. Gnome-sound-properties can't find it: "Could not get/set settings from/on resource" Gstreamer-properties can't find it either: " Alsamixer from the command line can and I've upped all the values so nothing is muted. The confounding part is that sound works fine when I boot from an F10 or F9 live cd. It just doesn't as a thin client. All my alsa and pulse libraries in the chroot are up to date (F10). The card does show up under /proc/asound/ I've tried using front panel jacks, mic jacks, etc. I've googled all sorts of "fixes" but nothing seems to work. Any insight or ideas appreciates. Thanks, William From baci at harborcityschool.org Fri May 22 17:22:33 2009 From: baci at harborcityschool.org (Chris Bacigalupo) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 12:22:33 -0500 Subject: [K12OSN] wall mart wall wort as app or profile server? In-Reply-To: <4A16C087.4080907@cmosnetworks.com> References: <29845938.26461242835002855.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> <4A143409.9070507@gmail.com> <4A16BA2E.8030706@harborcityschool.org> <4A16C087.4080907@cmosnetworks.com> Message-ID: <4A16DF59.2090809@harborcityschool.org> sounds like a hardware hack in the making .... hmmmm Terrell Prude' Jr. wrote: > Actually, I'd like to see a VGA port on it. Then we have the ultimate > (i. e. really small) cheap thin client. No, that wouldn't make the > device much bigger. Some lower-end (but good enough) graphics chip > like an ATI Radeon 7500 or 8500 that is known to work well with the > Free Software drivers in X11. Man, that'd be sweet.... > > --TP > > Chris Bacigalupo wrote: >> anyone every think about this? >> >> http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/22/1410227 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> K12OSN mailing list >> K12OSN at redhat.com >> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn >> For more info see > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see -- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Chris Bacigalupo Technology Coordinator, Instructor Harbor City International School 332 W. Mich. St. DUluth, MN 55802 tel. (218) 722-7574 ext. 430 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From micha at arava.co.il Fri May 22 14:29:46 2009 From: micha at arava.co.il (Micha Silver) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 17:29:46 +0300 Subject: [K12OSN] Scary article from Russia (w/o love) In-Reply-To: <4A159F29.1030008@gmail.com> References: <16927222.26641242847368592.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> <4A1460CF.5080000@redhat.com> <4A159F29.1030008@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A16B6DA.6060008@arava.co.il> Les Mikesell wrote: > R. Scott Belford wrote: >> Anytime Les Mikesell has an opinion, I read it. Period. End of >> discussion. I know of no other human that has reliably served the >> K12LTSP community any more than Les. I think that when half of us ask >> questions to this list, we are secretly hoping that Les is reading. >> >> So, on the subject of why gnu/linux is not the best thing in the >> world, it's no surprise that the discussion progressed to >> collaboration with software code. I have found this to be brilliant, >> enlightening, generally civil, and educational. If you are not a >> developer, then you can skip this thread. If you are curious about >> the dynamics behind software evolution, then this is compelling >> reading. >> >> I have never considered the GPL as restricting freedom. This is a new >> and educational perspective. I understand that in the pursuit of >> perfect code, some projects cannot borrow from others due to the >> licensing restrictions. > > I've actually never used k12ltsp in the way it was intended other than > playing with a few old PCs as thin clients. The thing that attracted > me to the distribution was the fact that it included things or scripts > to install things that the stock distros didn't even admit existed (a > packaged Sun java, decent fonts, acrobat, flash, realplayer, etc.). > That is, it had the right pragmatic approach to getting work done with > the best tools available - and helping others do the same. Ubuntu may > match this now, but remember this was years ago. > >> I'm a user, though, and not a developer. I love and am romanticized >> by the principles of the GPL and Stallman because I want my software >> "free." However, I want it to be great, too, If I need to >> intellectually grasp the dynamics behind software collaboration in >> order to help make it better, then I am grateful for this discussion. > > On the philosophical side, just consider how you and just about > everyone else have benefited from the unrestricted availability of the > reference TCP/IP code - and how things might have turned out if it had > been encumbered with the GPL restrictions that make commercial > products problematic. The same principle applies to all other > reusable code - there is no 'up' side to restricting distribution or > use - all that can come out of it is having to use something worse. > This thread has been fascinating and enlightening. Thanks, Les, for nudging us "a bit" off topic. I've heard the claims of GPL being sticky (or even viral) . But it's quite a leap from that to saying the it has encouraged the continued hold of proprietary software on the market. Les's example of TCP/IP is, of course correct, but on the other hand, the unrestrictive BSD license has morphed into OSX, and this has contributed nothing to OSS. The obvious reason that OSS developers continue to choose GPL (is it 70% of sourceforge today?) is to insure that their voluntary efforts won't be unfairly taken advantage of by some enterprising, proprietary company. On this point I found the following interesting blog: http://www.opensource.org/node/149 Regards, Micha From reb at taco.com Fri May 22 19:36:43 2009 From: reb at taco.com (Phydeaux) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 15:36:43 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] wall mart wall wort as app or profile server? In-Reply-To: <4A16DF59.2090809@harborcityschool.org> References: <29845938.26461242835002855.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> <4A143409.9070507@gmail.com> <4A16BA2E.8030706@harborcityschool.org> <4A16C087.4080907@cmosnetworks.com> <4A16DF59.2090809@harborcityschool.org> Message-ID: <20090522193647.186B167EFF7@althea.taco.com> At 01:22 PM 05/22/09, Chris Bacigalupo wrote: >sounds like a hardware hack in the making .... hmmmm It's as easy as plug and play: http://www.antonline.com/p_JU-000071-S1-NX_482204.htm reb From tim at litwiller.net Fri May 22 19:43:28 2009 From: tim at litwiller.net (Tim Litwiller) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 14:43:28 -0500 Subject: [K12OSN] wall mart wall wort as app or profile server? In-Reply-To: <4A16C087.4080907@cmosnetworks.com> References: <29845938.26461242835002855.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> <4A143409.9070507@gmail.com> <4A16BA2E.8030706@harborcityschool.org> <4A16C087.4080907@cmosnetworks.com> Message-ID: <4A170060.1070904@litwiller.net> as of earlier this week the usb displayports has linux drivers On 05/22/2009 10:11 AM, Terrell Prude' Jr. wrote: > Actually, I'd like to see a VGA port on it. Then we have the ultimate > (i. e. really small) cheap thin client. No, that wouldn't make the > device much bigger. Some lower-end (but good enough) graphics chip > like an ATI Radeon 7500 or 8500 that is known to work well with the > Free Software drivers in X11. Man, that'd be sweet.... > > --TP > > Chris Bacigalupo wrote: >> anyone every think about this? >> >> http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/22/1410227 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> K12OSN mailing list >> K12OSN at redhat.com >> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn >> For more info see > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see > From brcisna at eazylivin.net Fri May 22 19:52:41 2009 From: brcisna at eazylivin.net (Barry R Cisna) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 14:52:41 -0500 Subject: [K12OSN] via82xx sound (or lack thereof) Message-ID: <1243021961.29276.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> William, What version of k12ltsp are you using? As the client boots do you actually see "Accepting connections on port 16001" shortly before the video configuring lines start? When you select, SYSTEM,> Preferences,> More Preferences,> Multimedia Systems Selector,> , then click "test' button,what do you get for an error message? Barry Cisna From microman at cmosnetworks.com Fri May 22 20:28:44 2009 From: microman at cmosnetworks.com (Terrell Prude' Jr.) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 16:28:44 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] wall mart wall wort as app or profile server? In-Reply-To: <4A170060.1070904@litwiller.net> References: <29845938.26461242835002855.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> <4A143409.9070507@gmail.com> <4A16BA2E.8030706@harborcityschool.org> <4A16C087.4080907@cmosnetworks.com> <4A170060.1070904@litwiller.net> Message-ID: <4A170AFC.4040903@cmosnetworks.com> Then this is freakin' killer, dudes/dudettes. Talk about "thin" clients! All we need now with this thing is a USB hub for the keyboard, mouse, and ANTonline USB-to-VGA adapter, and we're done. Nobody'd even *see* the computer. A little mini-GNU/Linux distro with just the essentials (network stack and X11) installed on that built-in flash drive would DO THE TRICK! --TP Tim Litwiller wrote: > as of earlier this week the usb displayports has linux drivers > > On 05/22/2009 10:11 AM, Terrell Prude' Jr. wrote: >> Actually, I'd like to see a VGA port on it. Then we have the >> ultimate (i. e. really small) cheap thin client. No, that wouldn't >> make the device much bigger. Some lower-end (but good enough) >> graphics chip like an ATI Radeon 7500 or 8500 that is known to work >> well with the Free Software drivers in X11. Man, that'd be sweet.... >> >> --TP >> >> Chris Bacigalupo wrote: >>> anyone every think about this? >>> >>> http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/22/1410227 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> K12OSN mailing list >>> K12OSN at redhat.com >>> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn >>> For more info see >> >> _______________________________________________ >> K12OSN mailing list >> K12OSN at redhat.com >> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn >> For more info see >> > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see From lesmikesell at gmail.com Fri May 22 20:52:27 2009 From: lesmikesell at gmail.com (Les Mikesell) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 15:52:27 -0500 Subject: [K12OSN] wall mart wall wort as app or profile server? In-Reply-To: <4A170AFC.4040903@cmosnetworks.com> References: <29845938.26461242835002855.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> <4A143409.9070507@gmail.com> <4A16BA2E.8030706@harborcityschool.org> <4A16C087.4080907@cmosnetworks.com> <4A170060.1070904@litwiller.net> <4A170AFC.4040903@cmosnetworks.com> Message-ID: <4A17108B.7080709@gmail.com> Terrell Prude' Jr. wrote: > Then this is freakin' killer, dudes/dudettes. Talk about "thin" > clients! All we need now with this thing is a USB hub for the keyboard, > mouse, and ANTonline USB-to-VGA adapter, and we're done. Nobody'd even > *see* the computer. A little mini-GNU/Linux distro with just the > essentials (network stack and X11) installed on that built-in flash > drive would DO THE TRICK! I do like the idea, but am hoping something similar will eventually come around with some dedicated display chip embedded - maybe even something that could do hdmi out if it doesn't make it too expensive. I suspect that a USB->video adapter would be quite a load on the CPU. Maybe someone will hack a full linux onto the $99 Roku netflix box. -- Les Mikesell lesmikesell at gmail.com From news at siddall.name Fri May 22 21:07:30 2009 From: news at siddall.name (Jeff Siddall) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 17:07:30 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] wall mart wall wort as app or profile server? In-Reply-To: <4A170AFC.4040903@cmosnetworks.com> References: <29845938.26461242835002855.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> <4A143409.9070507@gmail.com> <4A16BA2E.8030706@harborcityschool.org> <4A16C087.4080907@cmosnetworks.com> <4A170060.1070904@litwiller.net> <4A170AFC.4040903@cmosnetworks.com> Message-ID: <4A171412.9000804@siddall.name> Terrell Prude' Jr. wrote: > Then this is freakin' killer, dudes/dudettes. Talk about "thin" > clients! All we need now with this thing is a USB hub for the keyboard, > mouse, and ANTonline USB-to-VGA adapter, and we're done. Nobody'd even > *see* the computer. A little mini-GNU/Linux distro with just the > essentials (network stack and X11) installed on that built-in flash > drive would DO THE TRICK! I dunno. Perhaps I am a hard to please, but by the time you are all done you will have spent $100 (wall wort) + $60 (USB2VGA) + $10 (USB hub) = $170 and what do you have? A thin client with crummy video support (1280x1024 = 17-19" monitor max. -- no widescreen support) practically no local-app support, and a bunch of dongles hung off a wall wort, plus all the time wasted getting a custom linux spin to support it all. I would rather spend $50 _less_ ($105 board/case/PS + $15 stick of DDR2) and get this: http://www.logicsupply.com/products/bp_m360_lf Which is LTSP plug-n-play. If you really like small and fanless and don't mind spending more, get this: http://www.logicsupply.com/products/ms_9a15 You could reclaim the 2.5" HD and sell it to recover some of the cost. Jeff From kuko at canarytek.com Fri May 22 21:21:31 2009 From: kuko at canarytek.com (Miguel Armas) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 22:21:31 +0100 Subject: [K12OSN] via82xx sound (or lack thereof) In-Reply-To: <1243008615.2912.39.camel@server.ltsp> References: <20090519193805.F23D68E0027@hormel.redhat.com> <1243008615.2912.39.camel@server.ltsp> Message-ID: <715a5f10905221421hbb9c7f2j4eb7e76dd84f6545@mail.gmail.com> 2009/5/22 William Fragakis : ... > The confounding part is that sound works fine when I boot from an F10 or > F9 live cd. It just doesn't as a thin client. > > All my alsa and pulse libraries in the chroot are up to date (F10). Recently I had a similar problem with pulseaudio. everything seemed to work, but I didn't get any sound. Then I realized pulseaudio was using null_sink, which throws all sound to the sink. It only uses null_sink when no other usable sound device is detected, but alsa was working... Then I saw the problem was that the pulse user (which runs pulseaudio) didn't have permissions to open /dev/snd/* so I added the following code to the /opt/ltsp/i386/usr/share/ltsp/ltsp-init-common initialization script, just before running pulseaudio: -- # Detect and report a common problem with thin clients if [ -d /dev/snd ]; then chown pulse /dev/snd/* fi -- I don't know if this problem is specific of my setup or it's a real bug, anyway I wasn't brave enough to file a bug report because I'm pretty new to LTSP Salu2! -- Miguel Armas CanaryTek Consultoria y Sistemas SL From monteslu at cox.net Fri May 22 21:24:59 2009 From: monteslu at cox.net (monteslu at cox.net) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 17:24:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [K12OSN] wall mart wall wort as app or profile server? Message-ID: <29541938.28428.1243027499409.JavaMail.monteslu@127.0.0.1> Not quite 50 bucks less, you still need to buy the processor. On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 2:24 PM , Jeff Siddall wrote: > Terrell Prude' Jr. wrote: >> Then this is freakin' killer, dudes/dudettes. Talk about "thin" >> clients! All we need now with this thing is a USB hub for the >> keyboard, >> mouse, and ANTonline USB-to-VGA adapter, and we're done. Nobody'd >> even >> *see* the computer. A little mini-GNU/Linux distro with just the >> essentials (network stack and X11) installed on that built-in flash >> drive would DO THE TRICK! > > I dunno. Perhaps I am a hard to please, but by the time you are all > done you will have spent $100 (wall wort) + $60 (USB2VGA) + $10 (USB > hub) = $170 and what do you have? A thin client with crummy video > support (1280x1024 = 17-19" monitor max. -- no widescreen support) > practically no local-app support, and a bunch of dongles hung off a > wall > wort, plus all the time wasted getting a custom linux spin to support > it > all. > > I would rather spend $50 _less_ ($105 board/case/PS + $15 stick of > DDR2) > and get this: > > http://www.logicsupply.com/products/bp_m360_lf > > Which is LTSP plug-n-play. > > If you really like small and fanless and don't mind spending more, get > this: > > http://www.logicsupply.com/products/ms_9a15 > > You could reclaim the 2.5" HD and sell it to recover some of the cost. > > Jeff > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see From news at siddall.name Fri May 22 21:28:41 2009 From: news at siddall.name (Jeff Siddall) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 17:28:41 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] wall mart wall wort as app or profile server? In-Reply-To: <29541938.28428.1243027499409.JavaMail.monteslu@127.0.0.1> References: <29541938.28428.1243027499409.JavaMail.monteslu@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <4A171909.1050207@siddall.name> monteslu at cox.net wrote: > Not quite 50 bucks less, you still need to buy the processor. Actually, the D945GLCF comes with a 1.6 GHz Atom CPU soldered on. Jeff From monteslu at cox.net Fri May 22 21:50:32 2009 From: monteslu at cox.net (monteslu at cox.net) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 17:50:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [K12OSN] wall mart wall wort as app or profile server? Message-ID: <27848280.28449.1243029032423.JavaMail.monteslu@127.0.0.1> Took a little digging, but you're right. And you can even upgrade the cpu to the dual core atom for 17 bucks. Smokin deal. On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 2:49 PM , Jeff Siddall wrote: > monteslu at cox.net wrote: >> Not quite 50 bucks less, you still need to buy the processor. > > Actually, the D945GLCF comes with a 1.6 GHz Atom CPU soldered on. > > Jeff > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see From microman at cmosnetworks.com Sat May 23 02:47:30 2009 From: microman at cmosnetworks.com (Terrell Prude' Jr.) Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 22:47:30 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] wall mart wall wort as app or profile server? In-Reply-To: <4A17108B.7080709@gmail.com> References: <29845938.26461242835002855.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> <4A143409.9070507@gmail.com> <4A16BA2E.8030706@harborcityschool.org> <4A16C087.4080907@cmosnetworks.com> <4A170060.1070904@litwiller.net> <4A170AFC.4040903@cmosnetworks.com> <4A17108B.7080709@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A1763C2.6010407@cmosnetworks.com> Les Mikesell wrote: > Terrell Prude' Jr. wrote: >> Then this is freakin' killer, dudes/dudettes. Talk about "thin" >> clients! All we need now with this thing is a USB hub for the >> keyboard, mouse, and ANTonline USB-to-VGA adapter, and we're done. >> Nobody'd even *see* the computer. A little mini-GNU/Linux distro >> with just the essentials (network stack and X11) installed on that >> built-in flash drive would DO THE TRICK! > > I do like the idea, but am hoping something similar will eventually > come around with some dedicated display chip embedded - maybe even > something that could do hdmi out if it doesn't make it too expensive. > I suspect that a USB->video adapter would be quite a load on the CPU. > Maybe someone will hack a full linux onto the $99 Roku netflix box. > Yep, that's why I'm hoping that they eventually come up with a version with built-in ATI Radeon that'd do 1920x1200. Wouldn't be that expensive if they use a non-31337 g4m0rz version of the chip. --TP From gianugo.altieri at tiscali.it Sat May 23 12:23:08 2009 From: gianugo.altieri at tiscali.it (Gianugo Altieri) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 14:23:08 +0200 Subject: [K12OSN] K12 and NetBeans Message-ID: <4A17EAAC.2090406@tiscali.it> Dear All, we run K12-Fedora10 in a production environment. Yet, I suppose that some of you have probably used (or are going to use) the NetBeans IDE in educational sites. Thus, I wonder if you can help us understand this issue. NetBeans IDE is terribly slow. Menus appear seconds after the mouse asked for them. Window background refresh happens at such a slow pace that you can relax and watch the progress. Strangely enough, Eclipse IDE runs at normal speed. We noticed also that if the *same* client, instead of starting in PXE mode, boots from a local HD and then uses VNC to connect to the server, NetBeans IDE runs at almost normal speed. What kind of viewer does K12 use and why VNC viewer appears much faster in this case? An explanation can be that K12 downloads a default O.S. onto the client, while a local VNC viewer, although running on top of a similar Fedora 10, makes optimized use of the client's graphic card with specialized drivers. Nonetheless, I wonder if a drop-down menu or a window refresh is such a graphic intensive application... Regards Gianugo Altieri From otrcomm at isp-systems.net Sun May 24 02:34:09 2009 From: otrcomm at isp-systems.net (murrah boswell) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 19:34:09 -0700 Subject: [K12OSN] New to K12Linux, Question Message-ID: <4A18B221.1040100@isp-systems.net> Hello all, I am new to K12Linux and download the Live CD. I thought OpenOffice was part of the distribution for the Live CD, but all I find is AbiWord. Have I missed something or is OpenOffice part of the full distribution? Thanks, Murrah Boswell From willems.leo at googlemail.com Sun May 24 03:42:34 2009 From: willems.leo at googlemail.com (Leo Willems) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 11:42:34 +0800 Subject: [K12OSN] New to K12Linux, Question In-Reply-To: <4A18B221.1040100@isp-systems.net> References: <4A18B221.1040100@isp-systems.net> Message-ID: <3fabbdc20905232042j770ad84docb3b012fe156c8ce@mail.gmail.com> Hello Murrah, as I understand the distribution policy, all software that has external copyright holders like OpenOffice (Sun), Adobe Reader and Adobe Flash (Adobe) and other 'free' software of this kind of copyright are excluded in the distribution. Only true 'free' open source software is included. You need to download and install this third party software yourself. By doing that you agree as individual or organization to the license agreements coming with that software individually. Thanks Leo On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 10:34 AM, murrah boswell wrote: > Hello all, > > I am new to K12Linux and download the Live CD. I thought OpenOffice was part > of the distribution for the Live CD, but all I find is AbiWord. Have I > missed something or is OpenOffice part of the full distribution? > > > Thanks, > Murrah Boswell > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see > From otrcomm at isp-systems.net Sun May 24 05:13:53 2009 From: otrcomm at isp-systems.net (murrah boswell) Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 22:13:53 -0700 Subject: [K12OSN] New to K12Linux, Question In-Reply-To: <3fabbdc20905232042j770ad84docb3b012fe156c8ce@mail.gmail.com> References: <4A18B221.1040100@isp-systems.net> <3fabbdc20905232042j770ad84docb3b012fe156c8ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A18D791.5030704@isp-systems.net> > as I understand the distribution policy, all software that has > external copyright holders like > OpenOffice (Sun), Adobe Reader and Adobe Flash (Adobe) and other > 'free' software of this kind of copyright are excluded in the > distribution. Only true 'free' open source software is included. > > You need to download and install this third party software yourself. > By doing that you agree as individual or organization to the license > agreements coming with that software individually. Okay, this makes perfect sense, but it sort of blows my demonstration! I wanted to use the Live CD to show a local school district how a pxe booted thin client could access the K12Linux environment and OpenOffice. Is there any way that I could do this with K12Linux installed on a USB stick and OpenOffice installed on the stick? Regards, Murrah Boswell > > Thanks > Leo > > > On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 10:34 AM, murrah boswell > wrote: >> Hello all, >> >> I am new to K12Linux and download the Live CD. I thought OpenOffice was part >> of the distribution for the Live CD, but all I find is AbiWord. Have I >> missed something or is OpenOffice part of the full distribution? >> >> >> Thanks, >> Murrah Boswell >> >> _______________________________________________ >> K12OSN mailing list >> K12OSN at redhat.com >> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn >> For more info see >> > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see > From willems.leo at googlemail.com Sun May 24 06:21:21 2009 From: willems.leo at googlemail.com (Leo Willems) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 14:21:21 +0800 Subject: [K12OSN] New to K12Linux, Question In-Reply-To: <4A18D791.5030704@isp-systems.net> References: <4A18B221.1040100@isp-systems.net> <3fabbdc20905232042j770ad84docb3b012fe156c8ce@mail.gmail.com> <4A18D791.5030704@isp-systems.net> Message-ID: <3fabbdc20905232321v1390a3bbsa77ab6d2b77e2820@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 1:13 PM, murrah boswell wrote: > >> as I understand the distribution policy, all software that has >> external copyright holders like >> OpenOffice (Sun), Adobe Reader and Adobe Flash (Adobe) and other >> 'free' software of this kind of copyright are excluded in the >> distribution. Only true 'free' open source software is included. >> >> You need to download and install this third party software yourself. >> By doing that you agree as individual or organization to the license >> agreements coming with that software individually. > > Okay, this makes perfect sense, but it sort of blows my demonstration! > > I wanted to use the Live CD to show a local school district how a pxe booted > thin client could access the K12Linux environment and OpenOffice. Is there > any way that I could do this with K12Linux installed on a USB stick and > OpenOffice installed on the stick? > > Regards, > Murrah Boswell > Yes, as soon install K12Linux on USB stick or hard disk you can install additional software. From joseph.bishay at gmail.com Sun May 24 12:41:39 2009 From: joseph.bishay at gmail.com (Joseph Bishay) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 08:41:39 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] wall mart wall wort as app or profile server? In-Reply-To: <4A1763C2.6010407@cmosnetworks.com> References: <29845938.26461242835002855.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> <4A143409.9070507@gmail.com> <4A16BA2E.8030706@harborcityschool.org> <4A16C087.4080907@cmosnetworks.com> <4A170060.1070904@litwiller.net> <4A170AFC.4040903@cmosnetworks.com> <4A17108B.7080709@gmail.com> <4A1763C2.6010407@cmosnetworks.com> Message-ID: So I'm not the only person who kept reading it as "Wall Mart" rather than "Wall Wart" even though it has nothing to do with Walmart? Probably a bad sign of conditioning and the pervasive marketing associated with Walmart! Joseph From peter at scheie.homedns.org Sun May 24 13:33:35 2009 From: peter at scheie.homedns.org (Peter Scheie) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 08:33:35 -0500 Subject: [K12OSN] New to K12Linux, Question In-Reply-To: <3fabbdc20905232042j770ad84docb3b012fe156c8ce@mail.gmail.com> References: <4A18B221.1040100@isp-systems.net> <3fabbdc20905232042j770ad84docb3b012fe156c8ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A194CAF.5090204@scheie.homedns.org> I think you are misinformed. OpenOffice.org *is* freely distributable, and most distros offer it. There is no licensing issue. The reason it is not included in the live USB image is that it is huge, consuming ~150MB of disk space. As the main point of the USB image is for demo purposes, Abiword is sufficient in most cases, as it, OpenOffice.org, and MS Word look very much the same. However, you can easily add OpenOffice.org after booting from the USB stick with either the graphical yumex or the command line yum. Peter Leo Willems wrote: > Hello Murrah, > > as I understand the distribution policy, all software that has > external copyright holders like > OpenOffice (Sun), Adobe Reader and Adobe Flash (Adobe) and other > 'free' software of this kind of copyright are excluded in the > distribution. Only true 'free' open source software is included. > > You need to download and install this third party software yourself. > By doing that you agree as individual or organization to the license > agreements coming with that software individually. > > Thanks > Leo > > > On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 10:34 AM, murrah boswell > wrote: >> Hello all, >> >> I am new to K12Linux and download the Live CD. I thought OpenOffice was part >> of the distribution for the Live CD, but all I find is AbiWord. Have I >> missed something or is OpenOffice part of the full distribution? >> >> >> Thanks, >> Murrah Boswell >> >> _______________________________________________ >> K12OSN mailing list >> K12OSN at redhat.com >> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn >> For more info see >> > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see > From microman at cmosnetworks.com Sun May 24 14:32:47 2009 From: microman at cmosnetworks.com (Terrell Prude' Jr.) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 10:32:47 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] New to K12Linux, Question In-Reply-To: <3fabbdc20905232042j770ad84docb3b012fe156c8ce@mail.gmail.com> References: <4A18B221.1040100@isp-systems.net> <3fabbdc20905232042j770ad84docb3b012fe156c8ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A195A8F.6030806@cmosnetworks.com> That's not true. Linux (the kernel) itself has "external" copyright holders, including Linus Torvalds, Andrew Morton, etc. Neither of these folks work for Red Hat. Linux is, in fact, under hundreds, maybe thousands of such "external" copyrights. The list goes on: - X11, copyright by X.org Foundation and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology - GNOME, copyright by many people - BASH, awk, grep, sed, GCC, and so on; copyright by the FSF - OpenSSH, copyright by Tatu Ylonen and the OpenBSD development team - The TCP/IP networking stack, copyright by the Regents of the University of California at Berkeley - TuxPaint, copyright by Bill Kendrick - LTSP, copyright by Jim McQuillan (and, I'm sure, others) Get the idea? :-) The Free Software licenses for these software packages (usually GPL or LGPL, also often BSD-style) are what give us the freedom to distribute this software as much as we want. That's why these licenses are chosen. I suspect that the reason OpenOffice.org isn't on there is simply because it's H-U-G-E. After all, it's been on every DVD of K12LTSP since version 3.0.0, including the still-current K12LTSP 5.0EL. OpenOffice.org is under the LGPL. --TP Leo Willems wrote: > Hello Murrah, > > as I understand the distribution policy, all software that has > external copyright holders like > OpenOffice (Sun), Adobe Reader and Adobe Flash (Adobe) and other > 'free' software of this kind of copyright are excluded in the > distribution. Only true 'free' open source software is included. > > You need to download and install this third party software yourself. > By doing that you agree as individual or organization to the license > agreements coming with that software individually. > > Thanks > Leo > > > On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 10:34 AM, murrah boswell > wrote: > >> Hello all, >> >> I am new to K12Linux and download the Live CD. I thought OpenOffice was part >> of the distribution for the Live CD, but all I find is AbiWord. Have I >> missed something or is OpenOffice part of the full distribution? >> >> >> Thanks, >> Murrah Boswell >> >> _______________________________________________ >> K12OSN mailing list >> K12OSN at redhat.com >> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn >> For more info see >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robert.pogson at gmail.com Sun May 24 16:28:47 2009 From: robert.pogson at gmail.com (robert pogson) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 11:28:47 -0500 Subject: [K12OSN] New to K12Linux, Question Message-ID: <6e87faa70905240928s3556cca8o1316a226c3306d47@mail.gmail.com> I have examined the copyright/licence of OpenOffice.org and, although it is complicated and has diverse ownership, it is truly free: see /usr/share/doc/openoffice.org/copyright in Debian Etch, for instance. Every bit of FLOSS has a copyright holder somewhere. Linux itself has thousands. Being complex should not make OpenOffice.org excluded. This package is one of the pillars of GNU/Linux on the desktop. Many distros include it. Sleepycat used to be involved with MySQL. Did the distro exclude MySQL? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From otrcomm at isp-systems.net Sun May 24 18:59:56 2009 From: otrcomm at isp-systems.net (murrah boswell) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 11:59:56 -0700 Subject: [K12OSN] squashfs.img question Message-ID: <4A19992C.7070605@isp-systems.net> Hello all, Anybody know how to unsquash the squashfs.img included with the distro? I mounted the iso in a loopback and tried to list the files in squashfs.img: unsquashfs -l /mnt/dvd/LiveOS/squashfs.img and got: FATAL ERROR aborting: failed to read fragment table Anybody know what the problem is here? I have the latest versions (4.0) of both mksquashfs and unsquashfs. If I can not unsquash squashfs.img, does anyone know where to get the directory tree(s) for LiveCD 10 and 11? Regards, Murrah Boswell From carl at snarlnet.com Sun May 24 19:01:48 2009 From: carl at snarlnet.com (Carl Keil) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 12:01:48 -0700 Subject: [K12OSN] New to K12Linux, Question Message-ID: <4A19999C.2060209@snarlnet.com> It might actually be a really cool part of your demo to show them how incredibly easy it is to install mindblowingly full-featured software on your average linux distro. I don't know if you can install software after booting from the live CD though. And you'd have to figure out some stuff to talk about while ~150 megs downloads. But I don't think your average proprietary software guy really gets it - what's out there, freely available, easily installable (one simple command) for linux. ck > Hello all, > > I am new to K12Linux and download the Live CD. I thought OpenOffice was part of the distribution for the Live CD, but all I find is > AbiWord. Have I missed something or is OpenOffice part of the full distribution? > > > Thanks, > Murrah Boswell From DLWillson at TheGeek.NU Sun May 24 19:11:27 2009 From: DLWillson at TheGeek.NU (David L. Willson) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 13:11:27 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [K12OSN] New to K12Linux, Question In-Reply-To: <4A19999C.2060209@snarlnet.com> Message-ID: <30207467.28591243192287011.JavaMail.root@zimbra.thegeek.nu> Yes, you can add stuph while booted from a LiveCD, at least in Ubuntu. Want a short, impressive demo? Try 'sudo apt-get install pq && pq &'. Yes, you can do updates, too. Unfortunately, the installs and updates don't write back to the CD... :-( Works dandy with a stick-boot, though. David L. Willson Trainer, Engineer, Enthusiast MCT, MCSE, Linux+ tel://720.333.LANS ----- "Carl Keil" wrote: > It might actually be a really cool part of your demo to show them how > incredibly easy it is to install mindblowingly full-featured software > on your average linux distro. I don't know if you can install > software after booting from the live CD though. And you'd have to > figure out some stuff to talk about while ~150 megs downloads. But I > don't think your average proprietary software guy really gets it - > what's out there, freely available, easily installable (one simple > command) for linux. > > ck > > > > > Hello all, > > > > I am new to K12Linux and download the Live CD. I thought OpenOffice > was part of the distribution for the Live CD, but all I find is > > AbiWord. Have I missed something or is OpenOffice part of the full > distribution? > > > > > > Thanks, > > Murrah Boswell > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see From otrcomm at isp-systems.net Sun May 24 21:21:59 2009 From: otrcomm at isp-systems.net (murrah boswell) Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 14:21:59 -0700 Subject: [K12OSN] New to K12Linux, Question In-Reply-To: <4A19999C.2060209@snarlnet.com> References: <4A19999C.2060209@snarlnet.com> Message-ID: <4A19BA77.3090202@isp-systems.net> Hello, > It might actually be a really cool part of your demo to show them how > incredibly easy it is to install mindblowingly full-featured software on > your average linux distro. I don't know if you can install software > after booting from the live CD though. And you'd have to figure out > some stuff to talk about while ~150 megs downloads. But I don't think > your average proprietary software guy really gets it - what's out there, > freely available, easily installable (one simple command) for linux. I have my K12Linux 10 Live on a 4GB usb stick that I built with Fedora LiveUSB Creator. It boots fine, but when I try to install openoffice.org-writer from a terminal session, i.e., yum install openoffice.org-writer it finds all the dependencies (24 modules), downloads them and starts installing. However, it hangs at the 21st module, openoffice.org-core, locks the system and trashes the yum databases. I have not been able to recover yum from this and have had to re-burn the usb stick. I have done this three times with the same results. Has anybody ever had success with installing openoffice on a live usb stick? I would love to be able to demonstrate how easy it is to download and install openoffice at my demonstration, but it does not appear that I have all the correct pieces. I have tried the K12Linux 11 Live beta on the usb stick, but it never gets me to the logon prompt. So I can not tell if it would let me install openoffice. Thanks for all your input and encouragement! Regards, Murrah Boswell > ck > > > >> Hello all, >> >> I am new to K12Linux and download the Live CD. I thought OpenOffice >> was part of the distribution for the Live CD, but all I find is >> AbiWord. Have I missed something or is OpenOffice part of the full >> distribution? >> >> >> Thanks, >> Murrah Boswell > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see > From carl at snarlnet.com Mon May 25 16:09:02 2009 From: carl at snarlnet.com (Carl Keil) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 09:09:02 -0700 Subject: [K12OSN] New to K12Linux, Question Message-ID: <4A1AC29E.70007@snarlnet.com> I wonder if installing all of openoffice vs. just the writer would work. Longer download. You could cheat a bit and intall it, then remove it, then install it again from cache. It would skip the download phase in the demo and you'd be pretty sure it would work. I think adding -c or something specifies not to redownload it. From peter at scheie.homedns.org Mon May 25 16:41:08 2009 From: peter at scheie.homedns.org (Peter Scheie) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 11:41:08 -0500 Subject: [K12OSN] New to K12Linux, Question In-Reply-To: <4A1AC29E.70007@snarlnet.com> References: <4A1AC29E.70007@snarlnet.com> Message-ID: <4A1ACA24.6000706@scheie.homedns.org> For demo purposes, I would skip installing any software during the demo, esp. OOo. The ease of installation is very cool, and one of the real advantages of FOSS. But, speaking from experience, in a demo the audience is usually underwhelmed by seeing it in action. *Tell them* how you can instantly add new software--no requisitions, no quotes, no vendors, no days or weeks of waiting, etc.--by just downloading it, perhaps bringing yumex up, but don't actually bother doing the installation. It's too slow, perhaps unpredictable, and it doesn't really wow people as much as one might think. Peter Carl Keil wrote: > I wonder if installing all of openoffice vs. just the writer would work. > Longer download. You could cheat a bit and intall it, then remove it, > then install it again from cache. It would skip the download phase in > the demo and you'd be pretty sure it would work. I think adding -c or > something specifies not to redownload it. > > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see > From otrcomm at isp-systems.net Mon May 25 18:20:57 2009 From: otrcomm at isp-systems.net (murrah boswell) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 11:20:57 -0700 Subject: [K12OSN] New to K12Linux, Question In-Reply-To: <4A1ACA24.6000706@scheie.homedns.org> References: <4A1AC29E.70007@snarlnet.com> <4A1ACA24.6000706@scheie.homedns.org> Message-ID: <4A1AE189.8050401@isp-systems.net> Hello Peter and Carl and All, Peter Scheie wrote: > For demo purposes, I would skip installing any software during the demo, > esp. OOo. The ease of installation is very cool, and one of the real > advantages of FOSS. But, speaking from experience, in a demo the > audience is usually underwhelmed by seeing it in action. *Tell them* > how you can instantly add new software--no requisitions, no quotes, no > vendors, no days or weeks of waiting, etc.--by just downloading it, > perhaps bringing yumex up, but don't actually bother doing the > installation. It's too slow, perhaps unpredictable, and it doesn't > really wow people as much as one might think. > > Peter > > Carl Keil wrote: >> I wonder if installing all of openoffice vs. just the writer would >> work. Longer download. You could cheat a bit and intall it, then >> remove it, then install it again from cache. It would skip the >> download phase in the demo and you'd be pretty sure it would work. I >> think adding -c or something specifies not to redownload it. Just being able to install yumex with yum install yumex from the terminal and then bringing up yumex will be perfect for my demonstration. Now, I have to admit, I have been working with Linux for over 10 years, but always in command line. The X-windows environment is foreign to me. I am not asking for a tutorial on X-windows, but how would I demonstrate adding an application from the server side and then making it available to all thin clients? What would be a good, simple application to add for my demonstration? One other thing, does K12Linux Live work out-of-the-box with a wireless router? I guess I should try before I ask, but if there are any lessons learned with wireless I would appreciate them. Thanks again for all your help! Regards, Murrah Boswell >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> K12OSN mailing list >> K12OSN at redhat.com >> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn >> For more info see >> > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see > From microman at cmosnetworks.com Mon May 25 20:58:47 2009 From: microman at cmosnetworks.com (Terrell Prude' Jr.) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 16:58:47 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] New to K12Linux, Question In-Reply-To: <4A1AE189.8050401@isp-systems.net> References: <4A1AC29E.70007@snarlnet.com> <4A1ACA24.6000706@scheie.homedns.org> <4A1AE189.8050401@isp-systems.net> Message-ID: <4A1B0687.7060306@cmosnetworks.com> murrah boswell wrote: > > One other thing, does K12Linux Live work out-of-the-box with a > wireless router? I guess I should try before I ask, but if there are > any lessons learned with wireless I would appreciate them. > Depends on the wireless card in your computer. This is a kernel issue and will thus apply to virtually all distributions. "lspci" and "iwconfig" can be helpful here. Ralink, Realtek, yup, those'll work fine. I love 'em. Some Intels will work OK, but (on CentOS 5) the 3945 requires using the RPMForge repositories. Fedora, with its newer kernel (2.6.24 and later have the Intel 3945 driver in-tree), is said to work out of the box with it. I know from experience that Slackware 12.2 (kernel 2.6.27) works great with Intel 3945 wireless. Broadcom, nope, so stay far, far away from those. Broadcom, Inc. seem not to like Linux AT ALL. If your laptop's already cursed with Broadcom wireless, then replace that wireless NIC if you can with something better (it's not hard at all), and watch for this with future purchases. *CAN* you make them work? Yes, and I have, but it's a hassle. Note also that virtually all 802.11b cards work (e. g. Orinoco). Yeah, I know, way back machine, but they work. Saved my butt one day when the Broadcom piece of junk wouldn't work. I popped my "old" Orinoco in, and boom, I had wireless. The only way to find out is to actually try it. --TP From otrcomm at isp-systems.net Mon May 25 21:58:31 2009 From: otrcomm at isp-systems.net (murrah boswell) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 14:58:31 -0700 Subject: [K12OSN] New to K12Linux, Question In-Reply-To: <4A1B0687.7060306@cmosnetworks.com> References: <4A1AC29E.70007@snarlnet.com> <4A1ACA24.6000706@scheie.homedns.org> <4A1AE189.8050401@isp-systems.net> <4A1B0687.7060306@cmosnetworks.com> Message-ID: <4A1B1487.1080504@isp-systems.net> > > Some Intels will work OK, but (on CentOS 5) the 3945 requires using the > RPMForge repositories. Fedora, with its newer kernel (2.6.24 and later > have the Intel 3945 driver in-tree), is said to work out of the box with > it. I know from experience that Slackware 12.2 (kernel 2.6.27) works > great with Intel 3945 wireless. I am currently building the K12LTSP 5 EL distribution, I guess it is based on CentOS 5. If I have to, how do I access the RPMForge repositories to get access to 3945 drivers? > > Broadcom, nope, so stay far, far away from those. Broadcom, Inc. seem > not to like Linux AT ALL. If your laptop's already cursed with Broadcom > wireless, then replace that wireless NIC if you can with something > better (it's not hard at all), and watch for this with future > purchases. *CAN* you make them work? Yes, and I have, but it's a hassle. Interesting, since Linksys uses Broadcom chips. My Linksys WRT54GLs Verson 2.2 use the Broadcom BCM5325EKQM chip and both OpenWRT and DD-WRT run fine. However, I have never connected through as a thin client, so I will find out. > > Note also that virtually all 802.11b cards work (e. g. Orinoco). Yeah, > I know, way back machine, but they work. Saved my butt one day when the > Broadcom piece of junk wouldn't work. I popped my "old" Orinoco in, and > boom, I had wireless. I use Linksys WPC54Gs (802.11b and g) on old Dell laptops, so they should work okay with K12LTSP 5 EL. I will test and report back later! Regards, Murrah Boswell > > The only way to find out is to actually try it. > > --TP > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see > From microman at cmosnetworks.com Tue May 26 01:19:04 2009 From: microman at cmosnetworks.com (Terrell Prude' Jr.) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 21:19:04 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] New to K12Linux, Question In-Reply-To: <4A1B1487.1080504@isp-systems.net> References: <4A1AC29E.70007@snarlnet.com> <4A1ACA24.6000706@scheie.homedns.org> <4A1AE189.8050401@isp-systems.net> <4A1B0687.7060306@cmosnetworks.com> <4A1B1487.1080504@isp-systems.net> Message-ID: <4A1B4388.5080800@cmosnetworks.com> murrah boswell wrote: > >> >> Some Intels will work OK, but (on CentOS 5) the 3945 requires using >> the RPMForge repositories. Fedora, with its newer kernel (2.6.24 and >> later have the Intel 3945 driver in-tree), is said to work out of the >> box with it. I know from experience that Slackware 12.2 (kernel >> 2.6.27) works great with Intel 3945 wireless. > > I am currently building the K12LTSP 5 EL distribution, I guess it is > based on CentOS 5. If I have to, how do I access the RPMForge > repositories to get access to 3945 drivers? Google is your friend. Also have a look in /etc/yum.repos.d. > >> >> Broadcom, nope, so stay far, far away from those. Broadcom, Inc. >> seem not to like Linux AT ALL. If your laptop's already cursed with >> Broadcom wireless, then replace that wireless NIC if you can with >> something better (it's not hard at all), and watch for this with >> future purchases. *CAN* you make them work? Yes, and I have, but >> it's a hassle. > > Interesting, since Linksys uses Broadcom chips. My Linksys WRT54GLs > Verson 2.2 use the Broadcom BCM5325EKQM chip and both OpenWRT and > DD-WRT run fine. However, I have never connected through as a thin > client, so I will find out. Yeah, that's because neither OpenWRT noror DD-WRT are based in the United States. OpenWRT is in Hungary (like MPlayer), and DD-WRT is in Germany. If they were in the USA, Broadcom would be suing the hell out of the developers. Both contain Broadcom's BCM43XX firmwares, for which Broadcom (unlike Ralink and Realtek) don't allow free redistribution. Essentially, OpenWRT and DD-WRT are flagrantly breaking US copyright law, but since they're overseas, Broadcom can't touch 'em. > >> >> Note also that virtually all 802.11b cards work (e. g. Orinoco). >> Yeah, I know, way back machine, but they work. Saved my butt one day >> when the Broadcom piece of junk wouldn't work. I popped my "old" >> Orinoco in, and boom, I had wireless. > > I use Linksys WPC54Gs (802.11b and g) on old Dell laptops, so they > should work okay with K12LTSP 5 EL. I will test and report back later! Waitasec... you're not wanting to do LTSP thin clients *across wireless*, are you? If that's what you're contemplating, then don't do it. The "why" has been hashed over and over on this list before. On the other hand, if you're going to use K12LTSP 5EL as your actual workstation OS (e. g. installed to your laptop's hard disk), then yes, that'll be great. I run K12LTSP 5EL in exactly that way on a Dell C640 (it has an Orinoco wireless), and it works beautifully. --TP From news at siddall.name Tue May 26 01:52:54 2009 From: news at siddall.name (Jeff Siddall) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 21:52:54 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] Remote client desktop Message-ID: <4A1B4B76.3090607@siddall.name> I am trying to find a way to remotely connect to a thin client desktop for support purposes. In LTSP4 this appeared to be done with x11vnc, or an equivalent integrated VNC module. Although I installed x11vnc in my Fedora 10 K12Linux client chroot, neither it nor I can find an X server running, and I cannot find any mention of a VNC module in LTSP5 either. Can someone explain where the client's X server is, and how I can remotely connect to it? Thanks, Jeff From otrcomm at isp-systems.net Tue May 26 06:04:09 2009 From: otrcomm at isp-systems.net (murrah boswell) Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 23:04:09 -0700 Subject: [K12OSN] New to K12Linux, Question In-Reply-To: <4A1B4388.5080800@cmosnetworks.com> References: <4A1AC29E.70007@snarlnet.com> <4A1ACA24.6000706@scheie.homedns.org> <4A1AE189.8050401@isp-systems.net> <4A1B0687.7060306@cmosnetworks.com> <4A1B1487.1080504@isp-systems.net> <4A1B4388.5080800@cmosnetworks.com> Message-ID: <4A1B8659.1010800@isp-systems.net> > > Yeah, that's because neither OpenWRT noror DD-WRT are based in the > United States. OpenWRT is in Hungary (like MPlayer), and DD-WRT is in > Germany. If they were in the USA, Broadcom would be suing the hell out > of the developers. Both contain Broadcom's BCM43XX firmwares, for which > Broadcom (unlike Ralink and Realtek) don't allow free redistribution. > Essentially, OpenWRT and DD-WRT are flagrantly breaking US copyright > law, but since they're overseas, Broadcom can't touch 'em. Works for me! > > Waitasec... you're not wanting to do LTSP thin clients *across > wireless*, are you? If that's what you're contemplating, then don't do > it. The "why" has been hashed over and over on this list before. On > the other hand, if you're going to use K12LTSP 5EL as your actual > workstation OS (e. g. installed to your laptop's hard disk), then yes, > that'll be great. I run K12LTSP 5EL in exactly that way on a Dell C640 > (it has an Orinoco wireless), and it works beautifully. I WAS thinking about doing thin clients across wireless, but I see from what you say and what I have read tonight, that it is not such a smart move. Another question. I got K12LTSP 5EL running on a server now, but have a problem with a Dell C600. It boots pxe fine, but it never makes it into X-windows. It just sits at the grey screen with an X for the cursor. The cursor does move with the mouse. Did I miss some settings in the server setup? Regards, Murrah Boswell > > --TP > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see > From brian at portsmouth-college.ac.uk Tue May 26 10:27:31 2009 From: brian at portsmouth-college.ac.uk (Brian Chivers) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 11:27:31 +0100 Subject: [K12OSN] Testing iSCSI performance Message-ID: <4A1BC413.109@portsmouth-college.ac.uk> I have setup a little test network with two machines connected together with iSCSI on gigabit ethernet. I'd like to test the filesystem performance, the iSCSI target is an OpenFiler box & the client / initiator is a Centos 5.3 machine with the iSCSI mounted as ext3. Has anyone got any recommendation for testing software or has anyone played around with this sort of setup? I've looked at Iozone and it looks very good but a little too complicated for me at the moment at this early stage. Thanks Brian Portsmouth College ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ The views expressed here are my own and not necessarily the views of Portsmouth College From cisna-barry at wc235.k12.il.us Tue May 26 12:17:30 2009 From: cisna-barry at wc235.k12.il.us (Barry Cisna) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 07:17:30 -0500 Subject: [K12OSN] Remote client desktop Message-ID: <1243340250.25532.1.camel@hi2.wc235.k12.il.us> Jeff, I may be missing exactly what you are wanting to accomplish with connecting to a TC desktop, but FL_TeacherTool should do very well for what you are wanting to do. Take Care, Barry Cisna From dahopkins429 at gmail.com Tue May 26 12:26:45 2009 From: dahopkins429 at gmail.com (David Hopkins) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 08:26:45 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] Remote client desktop In-Reply-To: <1243340250.25532.1.camel@hi2.wc235.k12.il.us> References: <1243340250.25532.1.camel@hi2.wc235.k12.il.us> Message-ID: > I may be missing exactly what you are wanting to accomplish with > connecting to a TC desktop, but FL_TeacherTool should do very well for > what you are wanting to do. > I wasn't aware that TeacherTool worked with LTSP5 for remote monitoring/control. iTalc might work but definitely looks like it could be difficult to set up initially: http://italc.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php?title=ITALC_in_a_ThinClient_environment Sincerely, Dave Hopkins From ltsp at dunc-it.com Tue May 26 13:25:20 2009 From: ltsp at dunc-it.com (C. Duncan Hudson) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 09:25:20 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] Remote client desktop In-Reply-To: References: <1243340250.25532.1.camel@hi2.wc235.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <4A1BEDC0.8040504@dunc-it.com> David Hopkins wrote: >> I may be missing exactly what you are wanting to accomplish with >> connecting to a TC desktop, but FL_TeacherTool should do very well for >> what you are wanting to do. >> >> > > I wasn't aware that TeacherTool worked with LTSP5 for remote > monitoring/control. > > iTalc might work but definitely looks like it could be difficult to > set up initially: > http://italc.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php?title=ITALC_in_a_ThinClient_environment > I haven't been able to get TeacherTool to work with LTSP5. It runs, and always says that no users are connected. Dunc From news at siddall.name Tue May 26 13:42:02 2009 From: news at siddall.name (Jeff Siddall) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 09:42:02 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] Remote client desktop In-Reply-To: References: <1243340250.25532.1.camel@hi2.wc235.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <4A1BF1AA.8030706@siddall.name> David Hopkins wrote: >> I may be missing exactly what you are wanting to accomplish with >> connecting to a TC desktop, but FL_TeacherTool should do very well for >> what you are wanting to do. >> > > I wasn't aware that TeacherTool worked with LTSP5 for remote > monitoring/control. > > iTalc might work but definitely looks like it could be difficult to > set up initially: > http://italc.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php?title=ITALC_in_a_ThinClient_environment I didn't think TeachtTool worked on LTSP5 either. Here's what the web site says: "It was designed to fit into the K12LTSP distribution but may also work with other LTSP systems. It was developed on K12LTSP 4.2EL using C++ and FLTKs." Since there are major differences between LTSP4 and 5 I presume this isn't an option. I installed iTalc at one point but it started popping up error dialogs for all users so I just removed it. It really isn't made for thin client environments, and it is unclear if it works well over low bandwidth connections (which I need). While it appears it is possible to get it working there are no Fedora instructions so it looks like an uphill battle. Since all I need is remote desktop it is overkill anyway. Is what I am trying to do impossible with standard tools (ie: VNC)? If I could figure out where the X server/client are running I expect I should be able to get x11vnc working. However, I have not seen any documentation about how X works in LTSP5 so this is a black box for me. Any tips would be appreciated. Jeff From otrcomm at isp-systems.net Tue May 26 13:51:15 2009 From: otrcomm at isp-systems.net (murrah boswell) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 06:51:15 -0700 Subject: [K12OSN] K12LTSP 5EL Questions Message-ID: <4A1BF3D3.8070209@isp-systems.net> Hello, I asked this in another thread, but I think the thread was getting old. Anyway, I have K12LTSP 5EL installed on a server but can not get a client to fully connect via pxe. The client session seems to go okay but then never gets past a grey screen with an X cursor. It never completes the boot of the desktop. I have tried changing the Screen_01 to shell in lts.conf, but that does not make any difference. I still get hung at the grey screen. My client is a Dell C600 and it works fine when I have the server booted off a usb stick with K12Linux Live CD, but I have somehow missed something in my K12LTSP 5EL setup. Anybody have any ideas what I have done wrong? A step by step setup for installing K12LTSP 5EL on a server would be helpful so I do not have to keep pestering this list with basic questions, but I have not been able to find one with all the pieces. Thanks and Regards, Murrah Boswell From dahopkins429 at gmail.com Tue May 26 14:26:51 2009 From: dahopkins429 at gmail.com (David Hopkins) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 10:26:51 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] K12LTSP 5EL Questions In-Reply-To: <4A1BF3D3.8070209@isp-systems.net> References: <4A1BF3D3.8070209@isp-systems.net> Message-ID: Have you regenerated the ssh keys? That seems to be one possible cause of this behavior. I'm not at a system so I can't tell you the exact command but perhaps it is documented on the k12linux site. Sincerely, Dave Hopkins On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 9:51 AM, murrah boswell wrote: > Hello, > > I asked this in another thread, but I think the thread was getting old. > > Anyway, I have K12LTSP 5EL installed on a server but can not get a client to > fully connect via pxe. The client session seems to go okay but then never > gets past a grey screen with an X cursor. It never completes the boot of the > desktop. > > I have tried changing the Screen_01 to shell in lts.conf, but that does not > make any difference. I still get hung at the grey screen. > > My client is a Dell C600 and it works fine when I have the server booted off > a usb stick with K12Linux Live CD, but I have somehow missed something in my > K12LTSP 5EL setup. Anybody have any ideas what I have done wrong? > > A step by step setup for installing K12LTSP 5EL on a server would be helpful > so I do not have to keep pestering this list with basic questions, but I > have not been able to find one with all the pieces. > > Thanks and Regards, > Murrah Boswell > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see > From microman at cmosnetworks.com Tue May 26 18:02:18 2009 From: microman at cmosnetworks.com (Terrell Prude' Jr.) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 14:02:18 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] K12LTSP 5EL Questions In-Reply-To: References: <4A1BF3D3.8070209@isp-systems.net> Message-ID: <4A1C2EAA.6060808@cmosnetworks.com> This is K12LTSP 5EL, which uses LTSP 4.2. SSH isn't a factor here. Here's the entry for this on www.ltsp.org. http://www.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/Troubleshooting-GrayScreen And another one from someone else who ran into it. http://web.utk.edu/~jenscag/IT566/566project.pdf Guys, Google is your friend. Seriously. --TP David Hopkins wrote: > Have you regenerated the ssh keys? That seems to be one possible > cause of this behavior. I'm not at a system so I can't tell you the > exact command but perhaps it is documented on the k12linux site. > > Sincerely, > Dave Hopkins > > > On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 9:51 AM, murrah boswell wrote: > >> Hello, >> >> I asked this in another thread, but I think the thread was getting old. >> >> Anyway, I have K12LTSP 5EL installed on a server but can not get a client to >> fully connect via pxe. The client session seems to go okay but then never >> gets past a grey screen with an X cursor. It never completes the boot of the >> desktop. >> >> I have tried changing the Screen_01 to shell in lts.conf, but that does not >> make any difference. I still get hung at the grey screen. >> >> My client is a Dell C600 and it works fine when I have the server booted off >> a usb stick with K12Linux Live CD, but I have somehow missed something in my >> K12LTSP 5EL setup. Anybody have any ideas what I have done wrong? >> >> A step by step setup for installing K12LTSP 5EL on a server would be helpful >> so I do not have to keep pestering this list with basic questions, but I >> have not been able to find one with all the pieces. >> >> Thanks and Regards, >> Murrah Boswell >> >> _______________________________________________ >> K12OSN mailing list >> K12OSN at redhat.com >> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn >> For more info see >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see > From cisna-barry at wc235.k12.il.us Tue May 26 18:27:43 2009 From: cisna-barry at wc235.k12.il.us (Barry Cisna) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 13:27:43 -0500 Subject: [K12OSN] Remote client desktop Message-ID: <1243362463.27864.8.camel@hi2.wc235.k12.il.us> Jeff, Could you try downloading fl_teachertool v_0.62 from the following link. I made an rpm of fl_teachertool for convenience.The rpm also sets all of the password stuff that usually is done manually installing fl_teachertool. It will install most dependencies in one rpm and if you are lacking others it will pull them down via yum. please read the readme.txt at the url first for a brief explanation.Id like to see how this works on FC10. Bottom line if it doesn't work you simply do an ' rpm -e --nodeps fl_teachertool' from the command line - terminal to remove what you just installed. ftp://eazylivin.net/server/fl_teachertool-0.62/ Take Care, Barry Cisna From cisna-barry at wc235.k12.il.us Tue May 26 18:35:16 2009 From: cisna-barry at wc235.k12.il.us (Barry Cisna) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 13:35:16 -0500 Subject: [K12OSN] K12LTSP 5EL Questions Message-ID: <1243362916.27864.14.camel@hi2.wc235.k12.il.us> Murrah, Do you have another machine you can use as an thin client? This will tell you if your problem is in fact the server or this particular TC that is giving you the prob.Even if you have a spare laptop that is PXE bootable try that on your setup to see if it comes up to a gray screen as well. Also do the following on the server, before you try and boot your TC. At a terminal do ' tail -f /var/log/messages ' . Then boot your TC now. Post back the contents of this file here after trying to boot your TC. This may devulge what the problem may be. Take Care, Barry Cisna From william at fragakis.com Tue May 26 21:13:27 2009 From: william at fragakis.com (William Fragakis) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 17:13:27 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] K12LTSP 5EL Questions In-Reply-To: <20090526160033.4B0B48E0054@hormel.redhat.com> References: <20090526160033.4B0B48E0054@hormel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1243372407.19587.14.camel@server.ltsp> there's an entire section on the ltsp wiki on resolving gray screen issues. http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/Troubleshooting-GrayScreen For a wild guess, it may well be your gdm (custom.conf, iirc) settings in allowing remote x connections but check the wiki as it will walk you through the likely suspects. regards, William On Tue, 2009-05-26 at 12:00 -0400, k12osn-request at redhat.com wrote: > > Message: 14 > Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 06:51:15 -0700 > From: murrah boswell > Subject: [K12OSN] K12LTSP 5EL Questions > To: k12osn at redhat.com > Message-ID: <4A1BF3D3.8070209 at isp-systems.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Hello, > > I asked this in another thread, but I think the thread was getting > old. > > Anyway, I have K12LTSP 5EL installed on a server but can not get a > client to fully connect via pxe. The client session seems to go > okay but then never gets past a grey screen with an X cursor. It never > completes the boot of the desktop. > > I have tried changing the Screen_01 to shell in lts.conf, but that > does not make any difference. I still get hung at the grey screen. > > My client is a Dell C600 and it works fine when I have the server > booted off a usb stick with K12Linux Live CD, but I have somehow > missed something in my K12LTSP 5EL setup. Anybody have any ideas what > I have done wrong? > > A step by step setup for installing K12LTSP 5EL on a server would be > helpful so I do not have to keep pestering this list with basic > questions, but I have not been able to find one with all the pieces. > > Thanks and Regards, > Murrah Boswell From news at siddall.name Tue May 26 21:51:50 2009 From: news at siddall.name (Jeff Siddall) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 17:51:50 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] Remote client desktop In-Reply-To: <1243362463.27864.8.camel@hi2.wc235.k12.il.us> References: <1243362463.27864.8.camel@hi2.wc235.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <4A1C6476.2090203@siddall.name> Barry Cisna wrote: > Jeff, > > Could you try downloading fl_teachertool v_0.62 from the following link. > I made an rpm of fl_teachertool for convenience.The rpm also sets all of > the password stuff that usually is done manually installing > fl_teachertool. It will install most dependencies in one rpm and if you > are lacking others it will pull them down via yum. please read the > readme.txt at the url first for a brief explanation.Id like to see how > this works on FC10. Bottom line if it doesn't work you simply do an ' > rpm -e --nodeps fl_teachertool' from the command line - terminal to > remove what you just installed. > > ftp://eazylivin.net/server/fl_teachertool-0.62/ > > Take Care, > Barry Cisna Barry, I grabbed fl_teachertool v_0.62 and tried an install. A bunch of files in the package conflict with xscreensaver -- ex: file /usr/bin/xscreensaver from install of fl_teachertool-0.62-RC2.i386 conflicts with file from package xscreensaver-base-1:5.08-5.fc10.i386 I forced the install and ran fl_teachertool. Unfortunately no users were listed. Any other thoughts? Jeff From proyecto.edulin at gmail.com Tue May 26 23:18:32 2009 From: proyecto.edulin at gmail.com (Alberto Castillo) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 20:18:32 -0300 Subject: [K12OSN] about EEPROM or EPROM for ne2000 ISA (help) Message-ID: <12b235150905261618j615da870l7147b2554f8dd7a1@mail.gmail.com> Hi everybody: I need some help. I need to build ROMs for a lot of NE2000 ISA that we here have. I see about a software called 'ctflasher' that flash eeproms with a simply rtl8139. My question is: Someone have experienced in use eeprom in ne2000 ISA? is that possible? or only olds EPROMs can be inserted into the sockets of theese ne2000 ISA? I see that the olds 27C**** is compatible with the new eeprom 29C***. or not??? But anybody can do it some of this? plug into a ISA ne2000 a eeprom? cheers from Argentina Alberto Castillo From otrcomm at isp-systems.net Wed May 27 01:48:22 2009 From: otrcomm at isp-systems.net (murrah boswell) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 18:48:22 -0700 Subject: SOLVED: Re: [K12OSN] K12LTSP 5EL Questions In-Reply-To: <4A1BF3D3.8070209@isp-systems.net> References: <4A1BF3D3.8070209@isp-systems.net> Message-ID: <4A1C9BE6.3070009@isp-systems.net> Hello all, Thanks for all your input on my problem. http://www.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/Troubleshooting-GrayScreen pointed me to the problems. 1. I didn't have udp port 177 open in iptables, and 2. the initdefault in /etc/inittab was set to 3 Made the changes and everything seems to be okay. Again, thanks for all your help! Regards, Murrah Boswell murrah boswell wrote: > Hello, > > I asked this in another thread, but I think the thread was getting old. > > Anyway, I have K12LTSP 5EL installed on a server but can not get a > client to fully connect via pxe. The client session seems to go okay but > then never gets past a grey screen with an X cursor. It never completes > the boot of the desktop. > > I have tried changing the Screen_01 to shell in lts.conf, but that does > not make any difference. I still get hung at the grey screen. > > My client is a Dell C600 and it works fine when I have the server booted > off a usb stick with K12Linux Live CD, but I have somehow missed > something in my K12LTSP 5EL setup. Anybody have any ideas what I have > done wrong? > > A step by step setup for installing K12LTSP 5EL on a server would be > helpful so I do not have to keep pestering this list with basic > questions, but I have not been able to find one with all the pieces. > > Thanks and Regards, > Murrah Boswell > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see > From otrcomm at isp-systems.net Wed May 27 05:30:08 2009 From: otrcomm at isp-systems.net (murrah boswell) Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 22:30:08 -0700 Subject: [K12OSN] Lock down proxy settings and home page Message-ID: <4A1CCFE0.9060308@isp-systems.net> Hello all, Does anybody know how to lock down proxy and home page settings in firefox through K12LTSP EL5? I need to be able to selectively lock down some workstations that will be in a "student" group so they can only access certain educational sites. Access to these sites will be controlled through a SquidGuard whitelist. I can do this fine using the login script function of Samba and Firefox running on windows based workstations, and can also lock down IE. Locking down Firefox on windows workstation requires that I rewrite (through vbs scripts pushed over at login and executed) some config files under C:\Program Files\Mozilla Firefox and C:\Programs Files\Mozilla Firefox\greprefs. Anybody know how to do get the same results through K12LTSP EL5? I can force all thin client traffic through port 3128 with Squid running as a transparent proxy and eliminate the need to configure client proxy settings in Firefox, but I would also like to have clients authenticate so I can manipulate SquidGuard based on username. Regards, Murrah Boswell From cisna-barry at wc235.k12.il.us Wed May 27 11:21:20 2009 From: cisna-barry at wc235.k12.il.us (Barry Cisna) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 06:21:20 -0500 Subject: [K12OSN] about EEPROM or EPROM for ne2000 ISA (help) Message-ID: <1243423280.31714.9.camel@hi2.wc235.k12.il.us> Hi Alberto, The ne2000 spec ISA nic card can be used,if you are wanting to use your existing pieces that you have lying around.Good idea,you know the new spin phrase 'go green',,:) I would suggest buying some rtl8139 pci cards to cut down on irq conflicts that are VERY possible using ISA based nic cards. You can download the images for your ne2000 cards here with various different configurations. http://www.rom-o-matic.net/ You will need to purchase a rom burner as well. Use the 32-pin CSI CAT28F512P rom chips. Hope this helps. Take Care, Barry Cisna From proyecto.edulin at gmail.com Wed May 27 12:11:48 2009 From: proyecto.edulin at gmail.com (Alberto Castillo) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 09:11:48 -0300 Subject: [K12OSN] about EEPROM or EPROM for ne2000 ISA (help) In-Reply-To: <1243423280.31714.9.camel@hi2.wc235.k12.il.us> References: <1243423280.31714.9.camel@hi2.wc235.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <12b235150905270511o36771fael908c79fc0934ab7b@mail.gmail.com> 2009/5/27 Barry Cisna : > Hi Alberto, Hi Barry! > > The ne2000 spec ISA nic card can be used,if you are wanting to use your > existing pieces that you have lying around. You tell me that an eeprom can be run into the ne2000 ISA? wow! >Good idea,you know the new > spin phrase 'go green',,:) I would suggest buying some rtl8139 pci cards I did probe the ctflasher application and run nice!, I thin to use a rtl8139 that a eeprom flasher. > to cut down on irq conflicts that are VERY possible using ISA based nic > cards. You can download the images for your ne2000 cards here with > various different configurations. > > ?http://www.rom-o-matic.net/ Yes! I did! Right now I explain: Recently, I finish to develop a micro linux that runs into a i486 with only 4MB physic RAM! and runs very very well!!!, basiclly is a kernel+uclibc+busybox+svgalib+svncviewer and I can implement with succefull, that via ethernet, the kernel boots with etherboot and later with a pair of parameters via dhcp, the kernel mounts a root file system (once a time, I do not use initram, only a root file system style Root over NFS). Well, in this moment to terminate my project and free to all that wants I need solve the problem about the if is posible replace eeprom by eproms, and if is possible, we can save a lot of money (olds eproms, burner eprom...) > > You will need to purchase a rom burner as well. > Use the 32-pin ?CSI CAT28F512P rom chips. > Hope this helps. > > Take Care, > Barry Cisna > Thank you a lot Barry. Greetings! > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see > From cisna-barry at wc235.k12.il.us Wed May 27 12:21:51 2009 From: cisna-barry at wc235.k12.il.us (Barry Cisna) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 07:21:51 -0500 Subject: [K12OSN] about EEPROM or EPROM for ne2000 ISA (help) Message-ID: <1243426911.32259.3.camel@hi2.wc235.k12.il.us> Alberto, Sounds like you are on the right track! Are you wanting to try and setup an 'embedded' eprom? If so how is the physical nic attached to this micro TC? I'm not smart enough to know how the timing,voltage,etc works on the various eprom's for your 486x. Good Luck! Barry From cisna-barry at wc235.k12.il.us Wed May 27 12:14:47 2009 From: cisna-barry at wc235.k12.il.us (Barry Cisna) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 07:14:47 -0500 Subject: [K12OSN] Remote client desktop Message-ID: <1243426487.31714.11.camel@hi2.wc235.k12.il.us> Jeff, Just making sure,,,,you did reboot the TC's after you installed fl_teachertool,right? Barry From news at siddall.name Wed May 27 12:33:22 2009 From: news at siddall.name (Jeff Siddall) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 08:33:22 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] Remote client desktop In-Reply-To: <1243426487.31714.11.camel@hi2.wc235.k12.il.us> References: <1243426487.31714.11.camel@hi2.wc235.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <4A1D3312.1020906@siddall.name> Barry Cisna wrote: > Jeff, > > Just making sure,,,,you did reboot the TC's after you installed > fl_teachertool,right? > > Barry Nope, sorry. Missed that step. I'll reboot and try again. Jeff From proyecto.edulin at gmail.com Wed May 27 12:49:43 2009 From: proyecto.edulin at gmail.com (Alberto Castillo) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 09:49:43 -0300 Subject: [K12OSN] about EEPROM or EPROM for ne2000 ISA (help) In-Reply-To: <1243426911.32259.3.camel@hi2.wc235.k12.il.us> References: <1243426911.32259.3.camel@hi2.wc235.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <12b235150905270549s5f84d060u21b363a1ee00b547@mail.gmail.com> 2009/5/27 Barry Cisna : > Alberto, > > Sounds like you are on the right track! Are you wanting to try and setup > an 'embedded' eprom? If so how is the physical nic attached to this > micro TC? I'm not smart enough to know how the timing,voltage,etc works > on the various eprom's for your 486x. > Good Luck! > Hi barry! Only I need is to know if someone just did can some time run a ne2000 etherboot code into a eeprom (like a 29***) plugged into the socket of a ne2000ISA. Than you a lot for the answer and sorry for my bad english, I try to understand your words my friend! Very soon I will terminate the documentation and for me will have a honour to me if all yours test my implementation, in fact, actually runs very well, but I need finish the documentation, because do no have any close in my language about this. and this implementation is thinking for schools with no one recurse, no one... We can gift all that 486s to schools of sudamerica, for example, and we can use like server a p4 with only 1GB ram! and run 10 486! we are implement near of 15 schools with this system in 5 years, and runs very well, we use from year 2004 k12ltsp, but we do not use ltsp that principal resource, we use a minidistro into diskette that runs with only with 8mb ram, and now I can get down to 4mb ram and eliminate the diskette. greetings from Argentina! > Barry > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see > From ssh at tranquility.net Wed May 27 12:48:40 2009 From: ssh at tranquility.net (Scott) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 12:48:40 +0000 Subject: [K12OSN] about EEPROM or EPROM for ne2000 ISA (help) In-Reply-To: <12b235150905270511o36771fael908c79fc0934ab7b@mail.gmail.com> References: <1243423280.31714.9.camel@hi2.wc235.k12.il.us><12b235150905270511o36771fael908c79fc0934ab7b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1386982038-1243428649-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-984877549-@bxe1136.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Remember that 10 mbit may be a bit sluggish on re-drawing a client screen. It will work, but 100 mbit is much better. Thx, Scott S. Sent from phone, excuse typoze -----Original Message----- From: Alberto Castillo Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 09:11:48 To: Support list for open source software in schools. Subject: Re: [K12OSN] about EEPROM or EPROM for ne2000 ISA (help) 2009/5/27 Barry Cisna : > Hi Alberto, Hi Barry! > > The ne2000 spec ISA nic card can be used,if you are wanting to use your > existing pieces that you have lying around. You tell me that an eeprom can be run into the ne2000 ISA? wow! >Good idea,you know the new > spin phrase 'go green',,:) I would suggest buying some rtl8139 pci cards I did probe the ctflasher application and run nice!, I thin to use a rtl8139 that a eeprom flasher. > to cut down on irq conflicts that are VERY possible using ISA based nic > cards. You can download the images for your ne2000 cards here with > various different configurations. > > ?http://www.rom-o-matic.net/ Yes! I did! Right now I explain: Recently, I finish to develop a micro linux that runs into a i486 with only 4MB physic RAM! and runs very very well!!!, basiclly is a kernel+uclibc+busybox+svgalib+svncviewer and I can implement with succefull, that via ethernet, the kernel boots with etherboot and later with a pair of parameters via dhcp, the kernel mounts a root file system (once a time, I do not use initram, only a root file system style Root over NFS). Well, in this moment to terminate my project and free to all that wants I need solve the problem about the if is posible replace eeprom by eproms, and if is possible, we can save a lot of money (olds eproms, burner eprom...) > > You will need to purchase a rom burner as well. > Use the 32-pin ?CSI CAT28F512P rom chips. > Hope this helps. > > Take Care, > Barry Cisna > Thank you a lot Barry. Greetings! > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see > _______________________________________________ K12OSN mailing list K12OSN at redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn For more info see From proyecto.edulin at gmail.com Wed May 27 13:23:12 2009 From: proyecto.edulin at gmail.com (Alberto Castillo) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 10:23:12 -0300 Subject: [K12OSN] about EEPROM or EPROM for ne2000 ISA (help) In-Reply-To: <1386982038-1243428649-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-984877549-@bxe1136.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <1243423280.31714.9.camel@hi2.wc235.k12.il.us> <12b235150905270511o36771fael908c79fc0934ab7b@mail.gmail.com> <1386982038-1243428649-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-984877549-@bxe1136.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <12b235150905270623w2ac1366cp10c335edca060354@mail.gmail.com> 2009/5/27 Scott : > Remember that 10 mbit may be a bit sluggish on re-drawing a client screen. > It will work, but 100 mbit is much better. > its true, but we have all for a 10mbit network, in fact, the clients are all IBM, AT&T and EPSON ISA motherboards with a PCI onboard video card cirrus logic, and we have near of 1.500 machines of this type. > Thx, > Scott S. > Sent from phone, excuse typoze > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alberto Castillo > > Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 09:11:48 > To: Support list for open source software in schools. > Subject: Re: [K12OSN] about EEPROM or EPROM for ne2000 ISA (help) > > > 2009/5/27 Barry Cisna : >> Hi Alberto, > Hi Barry! >> >> The ne2000 spec ISA nic card can be used,if you are wanting to use your >> existing pieces that you have lying around. > You tell me that an eeprom can be run into the ne2000 ISA? wow! > >>Good idea,you know the new >> spin phrase 'go green',,:) I would suggest buying some rtl8139 pci cards > I did probe the ctflasher application and run nice!, I thin to use a > rtl8139 that a eeprom flasher. > >> to cut down on irq conflicts that are VERY possible using ISA based nic >> cards. You can download the images for your ne2000 cards here with >> various different configurations. >> >> ?http://www.rom-o-matic.net/ > Yes! I did! > Right now I explain: > Recently, I finish to develop a micro linux that runs into a i486 with > only 4MB physic RAM! and runs very very well!!!, basiclly is a > kernel+uclibc+busybox+svgalib+svncviewer and I can implement with > succefull, that via ethernet, the kernel boots with etherboot and > later with a pair of parameters via dhcp, the kernel mounts a root > file system (once a time, I do not use initram, only a root file > system style Root over NFS). > Well, in this moment to terminate my project and free to all that > wants I need solve the problem about the if is posible replace eeprom > by eproms, and if is possible, we can save a lot of money (olds > eproms, burner eprom...) >> >> You will need to purchase a rom burner as well. >> Use the 32-pin ?CSI CAT28F512P rom chips. >> Hope this helps. >> >> Take Care, >> Barry Cisna >> > Thank you a lot Barry. > Greetings! >> _______________________________________________ >> K12OSN mailing list >> K12OSN at redhat.com >> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn >> For more info see >> > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see > From microman at cmosnetworks.com Wed May 27 16:43:18 2009 From: microman at cmosnetworks.com (Terrell Prude' Jr.) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 12:43:18 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] about EEPROM or EPROM for ne2000 ISA (help) In-Reply-To: <12b235150905270623w2ac1366cp10c335edca060354@mail.gmail.com> References: <1243423280.31714.9.camel@hi2.wc235.k12.il.us> <12b235150905270511o36771fael908c79fc0934ab7b@mail.gmail.com> <1386982038-1243428649-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-984877549-@bxe1136.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <12b235150905270623w2ac1366cp10c335edca060354@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A1D6DA6.5080002@cmosnetworks.com> Alberto Castillo wrote: > 2009/5/27 Scott : > >> Remember that 10 mbit may be a bit sluggish on re-drawing a client screen. >> It will work, but 100 mbit is much better. >> >> > its true, but we have all for a 10mbit network, in fact, the clients > are all IBM, AT&T and EPSON ISA motherboards with a PCI onboard video > card cirrus logic, and we have near of 1.500 machines of this type. > In that case, use what you have, and keep marching forward! I did something similar with an old Power Mac 5260, which also had 10Mbit, half duplex. It felt a bit sluggish, yes, but it did work. The thing that matters the most is that your network uses switches, not hubs, and that your server has at least a 100Mbit connection. If you can get a 1Gbit connection for the server, then that's even better, but for your 10Mbit clients, 100Mbit will do fine. --TP From proyecto.edulin at gmail.com Wed May 27 22:27:51 2009 From: proyecto.edulin at gmail.com (Alberto Castillo) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 19:27:51 -0300 Subject: [K12OSN] about EEPROM or EPROM for ne2000 ISA (help) In-Reply-To: <4A1D6DA6.5080002@cmosnetworks.com> References: <1243423280.31714.9.camel@hi2.wc235.k12.il.us> <12b235150905270511o36771fael908c79fc0934ab7b@mail.gmail.com> <1386982038-1243428649-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-984877549-@bxe1136.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <12b235150905270623w2ac1366cp10c335edca060354@mail.gmail.com> <4A1D6DA6.5080002@cmosnetworks.com> Message-ID: <12b235150905271527qdae31dfnf467a579e6493436@mail.gmail.com> Yes, but I come to ask, any have experienced about plug into a NE2000ISA a eeprom instead of a old eprom with etherboot and works? or not? 2009/5/27 Terrell Prude' Jr. : > Alberto Castillo wrote: >> >> 2009/5/27 Scott : >> >>> >>> Remember that 10 mbit may be a bit sluggish on re-drawing a client >>> screen. >>> It will work, but 100 mbit is much better. >>> >>> >> >> its true, but we have all for a 10mbit network, in fact, the clients >> are all IBM, AT&T and EPSON ISA motherboards with a PCI onboard video >> card cirrus logic, and we have near of 1.500 machines of this type. >> > > In that case, use what you have, and keep marching forward! ?I did something > similar with an old Power Mac 5260, which also had 10Mbit, half duplex. ?It > felt a bit sluggish, yes, but it did work. ?The thing that matters the most > is that your network uses switches, not hubs, and that your server has at > least a 100Mbit connection. ?If you can get a 1Gbit connection for the > server, then that's even better, but for your 10Mbit clients, 100Mbit will > do fine. > > --TP > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see > From news at siddall.name Thu May 28 02:19:25 2009 From: news at siddall.name (Jeff Siddall) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 22:19:25 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] Remote client desktop In-Reply-To: <4A1D3312.1020906@siddall.name> References: <1243426487.31714.11.camel@hi2.wc235.k12.il.us> <4A1D3312.1020906@siddall.name> Message-ID: <4A1DF4AD.1060308@siddall.name> Jeff Siddall wrote: > Barry Cisna wrote: >> Jeff, >> >> Just making sure,,,,you did reboot the TC's after you installed >> fl_teachertool,right? >> >> Barry > > Nope, sorry. Missed that step. > > I'll reboot and try again. > > Jeff Barry, I rebooted a client, then fired up fl_teachertool again. Still doesn't show any clients connected. You didn't specify, but was fl_teachertool supposed to be running when the client was rebooted? Jeff From ssh at tranquility.net Thu May 28 02:35:34 2009 From: ssh at tranquility.net (Scott) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 02:35:34 +0000 Subject: [K12OSN] Remote client desktop Message-ID: <1904245908-1243478262-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-764251912-@bxe1136.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> As root or a user? I haven't done the tweaks for VNC, but the basic fltk_teachertool works as root on any terminal on Centos 5.x for me. Thx, Scott S. ------Original Message------ From: Jeff Siddall Sender: k12osn-bounces at redhat.com To: Support list for open source software in schools. ReplyTo: Support list for open source software in schools. Subject: Re: [K12OSN] Remote client desktop Sent: May 27, 2009 9:19 PM Jeff Siddall wrote: > Barry Cisna wrote: >> Jeff, >> >> Just making sure,,,,you did reboot the TC's after you installed >> fl_teachertool,right? >> >> Barry > > Nope, sorry. Missed that step. > > I'll reboot and try again. > > Jeff Barry, I rebooted a client, then fired up fl_teachertool again. Still doesn't show any clients connected. You didn't specify, but was fl_teachertool supposed to be running when the client was rebooted? Jeff _______________________________________________ K12OSN mailing list K12OSN at redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn For more info see Sent from phone, excuse typoze From news at siddall.name Thu May 28 03:45:41 2009 From: news at siddall.name (Jeff Siddall) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 23:45:41 -0400 Subject: SOLVED: [K12OSN] Remote client desktop In-Reply-To: <4A1BF1AA.8030706@siddall.name> References: <1243340250.25532.1.camel@hi2.wc235.k12.il.us> <4A1BF1AA.8030706@siddall.name> Message-ID: <4A1E08E5.50108@siddall.name> Jeff Siddall wrote: > Is what I am trying to do impossible with standard tools (ie: VNC)? If > I could figure out where the X server/client are running I expect I > should be able to get x11vnc working. However, I have not seen any > documentation about how X works in LTSP5 so this is a black box for me. > > Any tips would be appreciated. > > Jeff The problems I was having getting x11vnc to work were apparently caused by a missing/incorrect -display and -auth parameters. As soon as I set those correctly x11vnc ran and I could connect remotely. Since finding the proper values for those two parameters is a bit of a chore I decided to write a small perl script to do it for me. I documented the procedure on the LTSP wiki here: http://wiki.ltsp.org/twiki/bin/view/Ltsp/X11vncLocalApp Hopefully this will help someone. Jeff From news at siddall.name Thu May 28 03:46:17 2009 From: news at siddall.name (Jeff Siddall) Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 23:46:17 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] Remote client desktop In-Reply-To: <1904245908-1243478262-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-764251912-@bxe1136.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <1904245908-1243478262-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-764251912-@bxe1136.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <4A1E0909.9050507@siddall.name> Scott wrote: > As root or a user? I haven't done the tweaks for VNC, but the basic fltk_teachertool works as root on any terminal on Centos 5.x for me. > > Thx, > Scott S. As root (via sudo). I am guessing that if you are running Centos 5.x you are also running LTSP 4.x. I think that makes the difference. Jeff From robark at gmail.com Thu May 28 07:21:03 2009 From: robark at gmail.com (Robert Arkiletian) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 00:21:03 -0700 Subject: [K12OSN] Remote client desktop In-Reply-To: <4A1B4B76.3090607@siddall.name> References: <4A1B4B76.3090607@siddall.name> Message-ID: On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 6:52 PM, Jeff Siddall wrote: > I am trying to find a way to remotely connect to a thin client desktop > for support purposes. ?In LTSP4 this appeared to be done with x11vnc, or > an equivalent integrated VNC module. ?Although I installed x11vnc in my > Fedora 10 K12Linux client chroot, neither it nor I can find an X server > running, and I cannot find any mention of a VNC module in LTSP5 either. > ?Can someone explain where the client's X server is, and how I can > remotely connect to it? > This is the main reason why I did not finish fl_teachertool for Fedora LTSP 5. I got stuck trying to get x11vnc working on the client. If I can get x11vnc to work on the client then I should be able to get everything working. BTW does anyone know how to get the vnc.so module of X running? That's how Eric did it in K12LTSP. Then we wouldn't need x11vnc. Also what would be nice is if xinetd started Xvnc server so you can just vncviewer localhost and boom up pops a login window. That's how it was by default in K12LTSP. My program fl_teachertool came to rely on these features. I saw Jeff's perl script and can add these links. http://doc.edubuntu-fr.org/clientleger_x11vnc https://wiki.edubuntu.org/InstallX11VncOnLtspClients I am sure we should be able to get this working. -- Robert Arkiletian Eric Hamber Secondary, Vancouver, Canada From cisna-barry at wc235.k12.il.us Thu May 28 11:08:04 2009 From: cisna-barry at wc235.k12.il.us (Barry Cisna) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 06:08:04 -0500 Subject: [K12OSN] about EEPROM or EPROM for ne2000 ISA (help) Message-ID: <1243508884.6037.3.camel@hi2.wc235.k12.il.us> Hi Alberto, I think what you are asking is,,, will an eeprom chip work on an ne2000 nic card. Yes the eeprom chip WILL work installed on an ne2000 card if burned with an etherboot image from rom-o-matic.net. Lots of times these older isa ne2000 cards have jumpers on them to select irq/memory address. Take Care, Barry Cisna From proyecto.edulin at gmail.com Thu May 28 12:08:46 2009 From: proyecto.edulin at gmail.com (Alberto Castillo) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 09:08:46 -0300 Subject: [K12OSN] about EEPROM or EPROM for ne2000 ISA (help) In-Reply-To: <1243508884.6037.3.camel@hi2.wc235.k12.il.us> References: <1243508884.6037.3.camel@hi2.wc235.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <12b235150905280508j28e9acfanc2bac6253402c02f@mail.gmail.com> 2009/5/28 Barry Cisna : > Hi Alberto, > > I think what you are asking is,,, will an eeprom chip work on an ne2000 > nic card. Yes the eeprom chip WILL work installed on an ne2000 card if > burned with an etherboot image from rom-o-matic.net. Lots of times these > older isa ne2000 cards have jumpers on them to select irq/memory > address. > > Take Care, > Barry Cisna Thank you Barry! you are save my life!!!! Take care you too! Cheers! Alberto C > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see > From cisna-barry at wc235.k12.il.us Thu May 28 12:24:40 2009 From: cisna-barry at wc235.k12.il.us (Barry Cisna) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 07:24:40 -0500 Subject: [K12OSN] Remote client desktop Message-ID: <1243513480.6502.4.camel@hi2.wc235.k12.il.us> Jeff, try disabling iptables from running on your fc11 server at startup in the servcies gui. reboot the server, reboot the clients,see now if you can see the TC's/username... Also another stupid question,,,you DO have a user actually logged into the TC's and not just powered up? Barry From news at siddall.name Thu May 28 12:28:17 2009 From: news at siddall.name (Jeff Siddall) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 08:28:17 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] Remote client desktop In-Reply-To: References: <4A1B4B76.3090607@siddall.name> Message-ID: <4A1E8361.6090901@siddall.name> Robert Arkiletian wrote: > On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 6:52 PM, Jeff Siddall wrote: >> I am trying to find a way to remotely connect to a thin client desktop >> for support purposes. In LTSP4 this appeared to be done with x11vnc, or >> an equivalent integrated VNC module. Although I installed x11vnc in my >> Fedora 10 K12Linux client chroot, neither it nor I can find an X server >> running, and I cannot find any mention of a VNC module in LTSP5 either. >> Can someone explain where the client's X server is, and how I can >> remotely connect to it? >> > > This is the main reason why I did not finish fl_teachertool for Fedora > LTSP 5. I got stuck trying to get x11vnc working on the client. > > If I can get x11vnc to work on the client then I should be able to get > everything working. BTW does anyone know how to get the vnc.so module > of X running? That's how Eric did it in K12LTSP. Then we wouldn't need > x11vnc. Also what would be nice is if xinetd started Xvnc server so > you can just vncviewer localhost and boom up pops a login window. > That's how it was by default in K12LTSP. My program fl_teachertool > came to rely on these features. > > I saw Jeff's perl script and can add these links. > > http://doc.edubuntu-fr.org/clientleger_x11vnc > https://wiki.edubuntu.org/InstallX11VncOnLtspClients > > I am sure we should be able to get this working. It turned out to be easier than I thought. The trick in Fedora appeared to be just using the xauthority stuff. I am aware of the edubuntu links but it appears the edubuntu client doesn't use xauthority since their procedure doesn't work on K12Linux (F10 based) -- I tried! I don't see any reason that some script (could even be the one I wrote) couldn't go somewhere where it would be started after X was running on the client. It would need to be modified to work a bit differently when it starts the server (ie: using -forever and some kind of password file, and definitely not -localhost) but that all seems pretty easy. Jeff From news at siddall.name Thu May 28 12:35:19 2009 From: news at siddall.name (Jeff Siddall) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 08:35:19 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] Remote client desktop In-Reply-To: <1243513480.6502.4.camel@hi2.wc235.k12.il.us> References: <1243513480.6502.4.camel@hi2.wc235.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <4A1E8507.6030904@siddall.name> Barry Cisna wrote: > Jeff, > > try disabling iptables from running on your fc11 server at startup in > the servcies gui. reboot the server, reboot the clients,see now if you > can see the TC's/username... > Also another stupid question,,,you DO have a user actually logged into > the TC's and not just powered up? Barry, I thought there were users logged in, but it appears that the ones that had rebooted the client had also logged out before I fired up fl_teachertool. iptables is disabled. I'll check again when I am sure there are clients logged in. Jeff From robark at gmail.com Thu May 28 17:46:11 2009 From: robark at gmail.com (Robert Arkiletian) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 10:46:11 -0700 Subject: [K12OSN] Remote client desktop In-Reply-To: <4A1E8507.6030904@siddall.name> References: <1243513480.6502.4.camel@hi2.wc235.k12.il.us> <4A1E8507.6030904@siddall.name> Message-ID: On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 5:35 AM, Jeff Siddall wrote: > Barry Cisna wrote: >> Jeff, >> >> try disabling iptables from running on your fc11 server at startup in >> the servcies gui. reboot the server, reboot the clients,see now if you >> can see the TC's/username... >> Also another stupid question,,,you DO have a user actually logged into >> the TC's and not just powered up? > > Barry, > > I thought there were users logged in, but it appears that the ones that > had rebooted the client had also logged out before I fired up > fl_teachertool. > > iptables is disabled. > > I'll check again when I am sure there are clients logged in. I need to make a some changes to fl_teachertool so it will work with LTSP 5 Fedora. I will download Fedora 11 (when it's released next week) and start porting it after June 16 (after report cards). It shouldn't be too hard. However, I need help with these issues: 1) Installing and running a vnc server on the client (either x11vnc or vnc.so module for X or something else see http://www.realvnc.com/products/free/4.1/x0.html ) Sounds like Jeff has almost got this done. 2) automatically launching Xvnc (vncserver) through xinetd to bring up a gdm login window when you connect to localhost with vncviewer. I am pretty sure Peter has a how-to on this (calling Peter) If people (maybe Jeff, Peter and Barry and/or others) can help add these 2 features to Fedora then I will commit to porting fl_teachertool to LTSP 5 Fedora 11 this summer. I suggest we do the work on Fedora 11 as it's less than a week away. -- Robert Arkiletian Eric Hamber Secondary, Vancouver, Canada From robark at gmail.com Thu May 28 18:37:43 2009 From: robark at gmail.com (Robert Arkiletian) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 11:37:43 -0700 Subject: [K12OSN] Remote client desktop In-Reply-To: References: <1243513480.6502.4.camel@hi2.wc235.k12.il.us> <4A1E8507.6030904@siddall.name> Message-ID: On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 10:46 AM, Robert Arkiletian wrote: > On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 5:35 AM, Jeff Siddall wrote: >> Barry Cisna wrote: >>> Jeff, >>> >>> try disabling iptables from running on your fc11 server at startup in >>> the servcies gui. reboot the server, reboot the clients,see now if you >>> can see the TC's/username... >>> Also another stupid question,,,you DO have a user actually logged into >>> the TC's and not just powered up? >> >> Barry, >> >> I thought there were users logged in, but it appears that the ones that >> had rebooted the client had also logged out before I fired up >> fl_teachertool. >> >> iptables is disabled. >> >> I'll check again when I am sure there are clients logged in. > > > I need to make a some changes to fl_teachertool so it will work with > LTSP 5 Fedora. I will download Fedora 11 (when it's released next > week) and start porting it after June 16 (after report cards). It > shouldn't be too hard. However, I need help with these issues: > > 1) Installing and running a vnc server on the client (either x11vnc > or vnc.so module for X or something else > see http://www.realvnc.com/products/free/4.1/x0.html ) Sounds > like Jeff has almost got this done. > > 2) automatically launching Xvnc (vncserver) through xinetd to bring up > a gdm login window when you connect to localhost with vncviewer. I am > pretty sure Peter has a how-to on this (calling Peter) found it http://petre.homedns.org/unix/vnc_via_inetd.html I have not tested it though. > > If people (maybe Jeff, Peter and Barry and/or others) can help add > these 2 features to Fedora then I will commit to porting > fl_teachertool to LTSP 5 Fedora 11 this summer. I suggest we do the > work on Fedora 11 as it's less than a week away. > > > > -- > Robert Arkiletian > Eric Hamber Secondary, Vancouver, Canada > -- Robert Arkiletian Eric Hamber Secondary, Vancouver, Canada From peter at scheie.homedns.org Thu May 28 21:25:24 2009 From: peter at scheie.homedns.org (Peter Scheie) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 16:25:24 -0500 Subject: [K12OSN] Remote client desktop In-Reply-To: References: <1243513480.6502.4.camel@hi2.wc235.k12.il.us> <4A1E8507.6030904@siddall.name> Message-ID: <4A1F0144.8020601@scheie.homedns.org> Robert, Do you need Xvnc launched via inetd or xinetd? Your message said xinetd, but the link to my notes that you gave references inetd. I've also got info on making it launch via xinetd. Presumably, it should be xinetd since this would run on the server, right? Let me know and I'll tackle getting it working on F11 this summer. Peter Robert Arkiletian wrote: > On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 10:46 AM, Robert Arkiletian wrote: >> On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 5:35 AM, Jeff Siddall wrote: >>> Barry Cisna wrote: >>>> Jeff, >>>> >>>> try disabling iptables from running on your fc11 server at startup in >>>> the servcies gui. reboot the server, reboot the clients,see now if you >>>> can see the TC's/username... >>>> Also another stupid question,,,you DO have a user actually logged into >>>> the TC's and not just powered up? >>> Barry, >>> >>> I thought there were users logged in, but it appears that the ones that >>> had rebooted the client had also logged out before I fired up >>> fl_teachertool. >>> >>> iptables is disabled. >>> >>> I'll check again when I am sure there are clients logged in. >> >> I need to make a some changes to fl_teachertool so it will work with >> LTSP 5 Fedora. I will download Fedora 11 (when it's released next >> week) and start porting it after June 16 (after report cards). It >> shouldn't be too hard. However, I need help with these issues: >> >> 1) Installing and running a vnc server on the client (either x11vnc >> or vnc.so module for X or something else >> see http://www.realvnc.com/products/free/4.1/x0.html ) Sounds >> like Jeff has almost got this done. >> >> 2) automatically launching Xvnc (vncserver) through xinetd to bring up >> a gdm login window when you connect to localhost with vncviewer. I am >> pretty sure Peter has a how-to on this (calling Peter) > > found it > http://petre.homedns.org/unix/vnc_via_inetd.html > I have not tested it though. > >> If people (maybe Jeff, Peter and Barry and/or others) can help add >> these 2 features to Fedora then I will commit to porting >> fl_teachertool to LTSP 5 Fedora 11 this summer. I suggest we do the >> work on Fedora 11 as it's less than a week away. >> >> >> >> -- >> Robert Arkiletian >> Eric Hamber Secondary, Vancouver, Canada >> > > > From robark at gmail.com Thu May 28 22:41:19 2009 From: robark at gmail.com (Robert Arkiletian) Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 15:41:19 -0700 Subject: [K12OSN] Remote client desktop In-Reply-To: <4A1F0144.8020601@scheie.homedns.org> References: <1243513480.6502.4.camel@hi2.wc235.k12.il.us> <4A1E8507.6030904@siddall.name> <4A1F0144.8020601@scheie.homedns.org> Message-ID: On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 2:25 PM, Peter Scheie wrote: > Robert, > Do you need Xvnc launched via inetd or xinetd? Your message said xinetd, > but the link to my notes that you gave references inetd. I've also got info > on making it launch via xinetd. Presumably, it should be xinetd since this > would run on the server, right? Let me know and I'll tackle getting it > working on F11 this summer. That's great Peter. Yes xinetd should start the vncserver (Xvnc) on the server for broadcasting. x11vnc on the client is for monitoring/controlling/snapshots I appreciate the help Peter. Thanks to Jeff for getting this ball rolling by getting x11vnc to work and thanks to Barry for making automagic rpm packages and testing. Fl_TeacherTool is still alive. > > Peter > > Robert Arkiletian wrote: >> >> On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 10:46 AM, Robert Arkiletian >> wrote: >>> >>> On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 5:35 AM, Jeff Siddall wrote: >>>> >>>> Barry Cisna wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Jeff, >>>>> >>>>> try disabling iptables from running on your fc11 server at startup in >>>>> the servcies gui. reboot the server, reboot the clients,see now if you >>>>> can see the TC's/username... >>>>> Also another stupid question,,,you DO have a user actually logged into >>>>> the TC's and not just powered up? >>>> >>>> Barry, >>>> >>>> I thought there were users logged in, but it appears that the ones that >>>> had rebooted the client had also logged out before I fired up >>>> fl_teachertool. >>>> >>>> iptables is disabled. >>>> >>>> I'll check again when I am sure there are clients logged in. >>> >>> I need to make a some changes to fl_teachertool so it will work with >>> LTSP 5 Fedora. I will download Fedora 11 (when it's released next >>> week) and start porting it after June 16 (after report cards). It >>> shouldn't be too hard. However, I need help with these issues: >>> >>> 1) Installing and running a vnc server on the client (either x11vnc >>> or vnc.so module for X or something else >>> see http://www.realvnc.com/products/free/4.1/x0.html ) Sounds >>> like Jeff has almost got this done. >>> >>> 2) automatically launching Xvnc (vncserver) through xinetd to bring up >>> a gdm login window when you connect to localhost with vncviewer. I am >>> pretty sure Peter has a how-to on this (calling Peter) >> >> found it >> http://petre.homedns.org/unix/vnc_via_inetd.html >> I have not tested it though. >> >>> If people (maybe Jeff, Peter and Barry and/or others) can help add >>> these 2 features to Fedora then I will commit to porting >>> fl_teachertool to LTSP 5 Fedora 11 this summer. I suggest we do the >>> work on Fedora 11 as it's less than a week away. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Robert Arkiletian >>> Eric Hamber Secondary, Vancouver, Canada >>> >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see > -- Robert Arkiletian Eric Hamber Secondary, Vancouver, Canada From simpsond at leopards.k12.ar.us Fri May 29 16:32:11 2009 From: simpsond at leopards.k12.ar.us (Doug Simpson) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 11:32:11 -0500 Subject: [K12OSN] about EEPROM or EPROM for ne2000 ISA (help) In-Reply-To: <1243423280.31714.9.camel@hi2.wc235.k12.il.us> References: <1243423280.31714.9.camel@hi2.wc235.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <4A1FC7BB.550C.0078.0@leopards.k12.ar.us> He did say they were 486 computers, though and I doubt they even had PCI slots in them. . . DS Doug Simpson Technology Specialist De Queen Public Schools De Queen, AR simpsond at leopards.k12.ar.us "A Dollar Saved is a Dollar Earned" >>> Barry Cisna 5/27/2009 6:21 AM >>> Hi Alberto, The ne2000 spec ISA nic card can be used,if you are wanting to use your existing pieces that you have lying around.Good idea,you know the new spin phrase 'go green',,:) I would suggest buying some rtl8139 pci cards to cut down on irq conflicts that are VERY possible using ISA based nic cards. You can download the images for your ne2000 cards here with various different configurations. http://www.rom-o-matic.net/ You will need to purchase a rom burner as well. Use the 32-pin CSI CAT28F512P rom chips. Hope this helps. Take Care, Barry Cisna _______________________________________________ K12OSN mailing list K12OSN at redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn For more info see From dhuckaby at paasda.org Fri May 29 16:39:28 2009 From: dhuckaby at paasda.org (Huck) Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 09:39:28 -0700 Subject: [K12OSN] about EEPROM or EPROM for ne2000 ISA (help) In-Reply-To: <4A1FC7BB.550C.0078.0@leopards.k12.ar.us> References: <1243423280.31714.9.camel@hi2.wc235.k12.il.us> <4A1FC7BB.550C.0078.0@leopards.k12.ar.us> Message-ID: <4A200FC0.6080901@paasda.org> fear.. did he say IRQ conflicts? wow.. haven't heard that term since the 90's.. and what a nightmare it was... Doug Simpson wrote: > He did say they were 486 computers, though and I doubt they even had PCI slots in them. . . > > DS > > Doug Simpson > Technology Specialist > De Queen Public Schools > De Queen, AR > simpsond at leopards.k12.ar.us > "A Dollar Saved is a Dollar Earned" > > >>>> Barry Cisna 5/27/2009 6:21 AM >>> > Hi Alberto, > > The ne2000 spec ISA nic card can be used,if you are wanting to use your > existing pieces that you have lying around.Good idea,you know the new > spin phrase 'go green',,:) I would suggest buying some rtl8139 pci cards > to cut down on irq conflicts that are VERY possible using ISA based nic > cards. You can download the images for your ne2000 cards here with > various different configurations. > > http://www.rom-o-matic.net/ > > You will need to purchase a rom burner as well. > Use the 32-pin CSI CAT28F512P rom chips. > Hope this helps. > > Take Care, > Barry Cisna > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see > > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see > > From robark at gmail.com Sat May 30 18:19:25 2009 From: robark at gmail.com (Robert Arkiletian) Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 11:19:25 -0700 Subject: [K12OSN] pxe boot menu feature request Message-ID: I am wondering how many would like to see K12Linux have the ability to pxe boot to a boot menu that gives users a choice of booting from network (LTSP) or boot from local hard drive (Linux or Windows)? DRBL does this and I think it's a great feature. It allows users to choose the boot device (network or local HD) without changing bios settings. It would allow easier integration of K12Linux into existing Windows labs by allowing dual boot but still have pxe netboot as first boot device in client bios. It can even be graphical with vesamenu.c32 http://syslinux.zytor.com/wiki/index.php/PXELINUX Comments, in favor, or against. -- Robert Arkiletian Eric Hamber Secondary, Vancouver, Canada From otrcomm at isp-systems.net Sun May 31 02:24:20 2009 From: otrcomm at isp-systems.net (murrah boswell) Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 19:24:20 -0700 Subject: [K12OSN] pxe boot menu feature request In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A21EA54.6050800@isp-systems.net> > I am wondering how many would like to see K12Linux have the ability to > pxe boot to a boot menu that gives users a choice of booting from > network (LTSP) or boot from local hard drive (Linux or Windows)? > > DRBL does this and I think it's a great feature. It allows users to > choose the boot device (network or local HD) without changing bios > settings. It would allow easier integration of K12Linux into existing > Windows labs by allowing dual boot but still have pxe netboot as first > boot device in client bios. It can even be graphical with vesamenu.c32 Some systems currently have this feature. That is, on my Dell C600, I press F12 at boot and it gives me options of how I want to boot, with mini-nic (pxe) being one. Also, on an intel motherboard system I have, I select F8 at boot and it lets me select how I want to boot, again with the network being one option. I guess I do not understand how you could get a K12Linux server to present this option to a client while the client is booting. Also, if the client does not have a harddrive, would the option still become available? Regards, Murrah Boswell > > http://syslinux.zytor.com/wiki/index.php/PXELINUX > > Comments, in favor, or against. > > From otrcomm at isp-systems.net Sun May 31 02:38:36 2009 From: otrcomm at isp-systems.net (murrah boswell) Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 19:38:36 -0700 Subject: [K12OSN] C-Media CM8738 Sound Card Problem Message-ID: <4A21EDAC.9050402@isp-systems.net> Hello all, I am using K12LTSP 5EL. I have been searching all over google and can not for the life of me figure out how to get modules loaded for a C-Media CM8738 sound card loaded. The snd-cmpci module is in /opt/ltsp/i386/lib/modules/2.6.17.8-ltsp-1/kernel/sound/pci/ and I added an entry in /opt/ltsp/i386/etc/audiolist" 13f6:0111 snd-cmipci #C-Media Electronics Inc CMI8738/C3DX PCI Audio Device and I can detect the sound card, but there is no sound in gnome. I also can not modprobe or modinfo the snd-cmpci module since modprobe and modinfo are not aware of modules in /opt/ltsp/i386/lib/modules/. Can someone please tell me how to get this sound card working? Regards, Murrah Boswell From brcisna at eazylivin.net Sun May 31 02:51:53 2009 From: brcisna at eazylivin.net (Barry R Cisna) Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 21:51:53 -0500 Subject: [K12OSN] C-Media CM8738 Sound Card Problem Message-ID: <1243738313.21567.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> murrah, as the tc boots ,do you ever see the line "accepting connections on port 16001",,,shortly before the line to start configuring x? from a terminal on the server do the following,,as root: tail -f /var/log/messages boot the tc,post back here what is in the messages file. you may want to try adding an entry in the lts.conf file for this TC. Something like, [ws100] SMODULE_01 = cmipci Take Care, Barry Cisna From otrcomm at isp-systems.net Sun May 31 05:55:06 2009 From: otrcomm at isp-systems.net (murrah boswell) Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 22:55:06 -0700 Subject: [K12OSN] C-Media CM8738 Sound Card Problem In-Reply-To: <1243738313.21567.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1243738313.21567.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4A221BBA.6090606@isp-systems.net> Hello Barry, > as the tc boots ,do you ever see the line "accepting connections on port > 16001",,,shortly before the line to start configuring x? > from a terminal on the server do the following,,as root: > tail -f /var/log/messages > boot the tc,post back here what is in the messages file. > you may want to try adding an entry in the lts.conf file for this TC. > Something like, > > [ws100] > SMODULE_01 = cmipci > The CM8738 is on my server and I finally got it operational by install the alsa drivers for the cmipci. Once the drivers got located in the uname -r kernel modules directory and I could modprobe the drivers into the kernel, then the server sound card started working. However, the sound system on my client terminal is not working. I am using a Dell C600 laptop to test with and it uses a maestro3 sound chipset. I added an entry for my laptop in lts.conf: [ws253] SMODULE_01 = snd-maestro3 And when I reconnected with the laptop via pxe I got: [root at testbed log]# tail -f messages May 30 22:31:18 testbed dhcpd: DHCPDISCOVER from 00:01:03:8b:0e:2e via eth0 May 30 22:31:19 testbed dhcpd: DHCPOFFER on 10.10.1.252 to 00:01:03:8b:0e:2e via eth0 May 30 22:31:19 testbed dhcpd: DHCPREQUEST for 10.10.1.252 (10.10.1.5) from 00:01:03:8b:0e:2e via eth0 May 30 22:31:19 testbed dhcpd: DHCPACK on 10.10.1.252 to 00:01:03:8b:0e:2e via eth0 May 30 22:31:19 testbed xinetd[1920]: START: tftp pid=22534 from=10.10.1.252 May 30 22:31:19 testbed in.tftpd[22535]: tftp: client does not accept options May 30 22:31:22 testbed dhcpd: DHCPDISCOVER from 00:01:03:8b:0e:2e via eth0 May 30 22:31:23 testbed dhcpd: DHCPOFFER on 10.10.1.253 to 00:01:03:8b:0e:2e via eth0 May 30 22:31:23 testbed dhcpd: DHCPREQUEST for 10.10.1.253 (10.10.1.5) from 00:01:03:8b:0e:2e via eth0 May 30 22:31:23 testbed dhcpd: DHCPACK on 10.10.1.253 to 00:01:03:8b:0e:2e via eth0 May 30 22:31:23 testbed mountd[1988]: authenticated mount request from ws253.ltsp:999 for /opt/ltsp/i386 (/opt/ltsp/i386) May 30 22:31:24 ws253 syslogd started: BusyBox v0.60.4 (2007.01.18-19:26+0000) May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: Linux version 2.6.17.8-ltsp-1 (jam at bam) (gcc version 4.0.3 (Ubuntu 4.0.3-1ubuntu5)) #0 PREEMPT Fri Aug 11 13:49:25 EDT 2006 May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: BIOS-provided physical RAM map: May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: BIOS-e820: 0000000000000000 - 000000000009fc00 (usable) May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: BIOS-e820: 000000000009fc00 - 00000000000a0000 (reserved) May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: BIOS-e820: 0000000000100000 - 000000001ffdb000 (usable) May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: BIOS-e820: 000000001ffdb000 - 0000000020000000 (reserved) May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: BIOS-e820: 00000000ffe00000 - 0000000100000000 (reserved) May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: 0MB HIGHMEM available. May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: 511MB LOWMEM available. May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: On node 0 totalpages: 131035 May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: DMA zone: 4096 pages, LIFO batch:0 May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: Normal zone: 126939 pages, LIFO batch:31 May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: DMI 2.3 present. May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: ACPI: RSDP (v000 DELL ) @ 0x000f4c00 May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: ACPI: RSDT (v001 DELL CPi R 0x27d30708 ASL 0x00000061) @ 0x1fff0000 May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: ACPI: FADT (v001 DELL CPi R 0x27d30708 ASL 0x00000061) @ 0x1fff0400 May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: ACPI: DSDT (v001 INT430 SYSFexxx 0x00001001 MSFT 0x0100000e) @ 0x00000000 May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: ACPI: PM-Timer IO Port: 0x808 May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: Allocating PCI resources starting at 30000000 (gap: 20000000:dfe00000) May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: Built 1 zonelists May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: Kernel command line: root=/dev/ram0 rw initrd=initramfs.gz BOOT_IMAGE=vmlinuz.ltsp auto May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: Enabling fast FPU save and restore... done. May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: Enabling unmasked SIMD FPU exception support... done. May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: Initializing CPU#0 May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: PID hash table entries: 2048 (order: 11, 8192 bytes) May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: Detected 1002.441 MHz processor. May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: Using pmtmr for high-res timesource May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: Console: colour VGA+ 80x25 May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: Dentry cache hash table entries: 65536 (order: 6, 262144 bytes) May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: Inode-cache hash table entries: 32768 (order: 5, 131072 bytes) May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: Memory: 514300k/524140k available (2264k kernel code, 9084k reserved, 640k data, 172k init, 0k highmem) May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: Checking if this processor honours the WP bit even in supervisor mode... Ok. May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: Calibrating delay using timer specific routine.. 2006.27 BogoMIPS (lpj=4012555) May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: Security Framework v1.0.0 initialized May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: Mount-cache hash table entries: 512 May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: CPU: After generic identify, caps: 0383f9ff 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: CPU: After vendor identify, caps: 0383f9ff 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: CPU: L1 I cache: 16K, L1 D cache: 16K May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: CPU: L2 cache: 256K May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: CPU: After all inits, caps: 0383f9ff 00000000 00000000 00000040 00000000 00000000 00000000 May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: Intel machine check architecture supported. May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: Intel machine check reporting enabled on CPU#0. May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: CPU: Intel Pentium III (Coppermine) stepping 0a May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: Checking 'hlt' instruction... OK. May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: SMP alternatives: switching to UP code May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: Freeing SMP alternatives: 0k freed May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: ACPI: setting ELCR to 0200 (from 0820) May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: checking if image is initramfs... it is May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: Freeing initrd memory: 1244k freed May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: NET: Registered protocol family 16 May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: ACPI: bus type pci registered May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: PCI: PCI BIOS revision 2.10 entry at 0xfc13e, last bus=1 May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: Setting up standard PCI resources May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: ACPI: Subsystem revision 20060127 May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: ACPI: Interpreter enabled May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: ACPI: Using PIC for interrupt routing May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: ACPI: PCI Root Bridge [PCI0] (0000:00) May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: PCI: Probing PCI hardware (bus 00) May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: ACPI: Assume root bridge [\_SB_.PCI0] bus is 0 May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: PCI quirk: region 0800-083f claimed by PIIX4 ACPI May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: PCI quirk: region 0840-084f claimed by PIIX4 SMB May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: PIIX4 devres B PIO at 00e0-00e7 May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: PIIX4 devres C PIO at 0850-085f May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: Boot video device is 0000:01:00.0 May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: ACPI: PCI Interrupt Routing Table [\_SB_.PCI0._PRT] May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: ACPI: PCI Interrupt Link [LNKA] (IRQs 9 10 *11) May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: ACPI: PCI Interrupt Link [LNKB] (IRQs *5 7) May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: ACPI: PCI Interrupt Link [LNKC] (IRQs 9 10 11) *0, disabled. May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: ACPI: PCI Interrupt Link [LNKD] (IRQs 5 7 9 10 *11) May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: ACPI: PCI Interrupt Routing Table [\_SB_.PCI0.AGP_._PRT] May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: ACPI: Power Resource [PADA] (on) May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: Linux Plug and Play Support v0.97 (c) Adam Belay May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: pnp: PnP ACPI init May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: pnp: PnP ACPI: found 15 devices May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: PnPBIOS: Disabled by ACPI PNP May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: PCI: Using ACPI for IRQ routing May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: PCI: If a device doesn't work, try "pci=routeirq". If it helps, post a report May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: pnp: 00:02: ioport range 0x4d0-0x4d1 has been reserved May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: pnp: 00:02: ioport range 0x800-0x805 could not be reserved May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: pnp: 00:02: ioport range 0x808-0x80f could not be reserved May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: pnp: 00:03: ioport range 0x806-0x807 has been reserved May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: pnp: 00:03: ioport range 0x850-0x853 has been reserved May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: pnp: 00:03: ioport range 0x856-0x85f has been reserved May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: pnp: 00:03: ioport range 0x810-0x83f has been reserved May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: pnp: 00:03: ioport range 0x840-0x84f has been reserved May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: pnp: 00:03: ioport range 0x600-0x67f has been reserved May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: pnp: 00:03: ioport range 0x680-0x6ff has been reserved May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: pnp: 00:04: ioport range 0xf000-0xf0fe has been reserved May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: pnp: 00:04: ioport range 0xf100-0xf1fe has been reserved May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: pnp: 00:04: ioport range 0xf200-0xf2fe has been reserved May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: pnp: 00:04: ioport range 0xf400-0xf4fe has been reserved May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: pnp: 00:04: ioport range 0xf500-0xf5fe has been reserved May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: pnp: 00:04: ioport range 0xf600-0xf6fe has been reserved May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: pnp: 00:04: ioport range 0xf800-0xf8fe has been reserved May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: pnp: 00:04: ioport range 0xf900-0xf9fe has been reserved May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: pnp: 00:09: ioport range 0x3f0-0x3f1 has been reserved May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: PCI: Bridge: 0000:00:01.0 May 30 22:31:24 ws253 root: IO window: e000-efff May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: MEM window: fd000000-feffffff May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: PREFETCH window: f8000000-fbffffff May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: PCI: Bus 2, cardbus bridge: 0000:00:03.0 May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: IO window: 00001000-000010ff May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: IO window: 00001400-000014ff May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: PREFETCH window: 30000000-31ffffff May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: MEM window: 32000000-33ffffff May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: PCI: Bus 6, cardbus bridge: 0000:00:03.1 May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: IO window: 00001800-000018ff May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: IO window: 00001c00-00001cff May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: PREFETCH window: 34000000-35ffffff May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: MEM window: 36000000-37ffffff May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: PCI: Enabling device 0000:00:03.0 (0000 -> 0003) May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: ACPI: PCI Interrupt Link [LNKD] enabled at IRQ 11 May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: PCI: setting IRQ 11 as level-triggered May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: ACPI: PCI Interrupt 0000:00:03.0[A] -> Link [LNKD] -> GSI 11 (level, low) -> IRQ 11 May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: PCI: Enabling device 0000:00:03.1 (0000 -> 0003) May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: ACPI: PCI Interrupt 0000:00:03.1[A] -> Link [LNKD] -> GSI 11 (level, low) -> IRQ 11 May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: NET: Registered protocol family 2 May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: IP route cache hash table entries: 4096 (order: 2, 16384 bytes) May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: TCP established hash table entries: 16384 (order: 4, 65536 bytes) May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: TCP bind hash table entries: 8192 (order: 3, 32768 bytes) May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: TCP: Hash tables configured (established 16384 bind 8192) May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: TCP reno registered May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: Installing knfsd (copyright (C) 1996 okir at monad.swb.de). May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: Initializing Cryptographic API May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: io scheduler noop registered May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: io scheduler anticipatory registered (default) May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: io scheduler deadline registered May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: io scheduler cfq registered May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: Limiting direct PCI/PCI transfers. May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: isapnp: Scanning for PnP cards... May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: isapnp: No Plug & Play device found May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: Linux agpgart interface v0.101 (c) Dave Jones May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: agpgart: Detected an Intel 440BX Chipset. May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: agpgart: AGP aperture is 64M @ 0xf4000000 May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: [drm] Initialized drm 1.0.1 20051102 May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: intelfb: Framebuffer driver for Intel(R) 830M/845G/852GM/855GM/865G/915G/915GM chipsets May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: intelfb: Version 0.9.2 May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: Serial: 8250/16550 driver $Revision: 1.90 $ 4 ports, IRQ sharing enabled May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: serial8250: ttyS0 at I/O 0x3f8 (irq = 4) is a 16550A May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: 00:0d: ttyS0 at I/O 0x3f8 (irq = 4) is a 16550A May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: RAMDISK driver initialized: 16 RAM disks of 8192K size 1024 blocksize May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: PNP: PS/2 Controller [PNP0303:KBC,PNP0f13:PS2M] at 0x60,0x64 irq 1,12 May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: serio: i8042 AUX port at 0x60,0x64 irq 12 May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: serio: i8042 KBD port at 0x60,0x64 irq 1 May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: mice: PS/2 mouse device common for all mice May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: TCP bic registered May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: NET: Registered protocol family 1 May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: NET: Registered protocol family 17 May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: Using IPI Shortcut mode May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: ACPI wakeup devices: May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: LID PBTN PCI0 UAR1 USB0 MPCI May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: ACPI: (supports S0 S1 S3 S4 S5) May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: Freeing unused kernel memory: 172k freed May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: input: AT Translated Set 2 keyboard as /class/input/input0 May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: ACPI: PCI Interrupt 0000:00:10.0[A] -> Link [LNKD] -> GSI 11 (level, low) -> IRQ 11 May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: 3c59x: Donald Becker and others. www.scyld.com/network/vortex.html May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: 0000:00:10.0: 3Com PCI 3c556 Laptop Tornado at e080ec00. May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: ACPI: PCI Interrupt 0000:00:10.0[A] -> Link [LNKD] -> GSI 11 (level, low) -> IRQ 11 May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: eth0: setting full-duplex. May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: Synaptics Touchpad, model: 1, fw: 5.7, id: 0x9b48b1, caps: 0x804793/0x0 May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: serio: Synaptics pass-through port at isa0060/serio1/input0 May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: input: SynPS/2 Synaptics TouchPad as /class/input/input1 May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: usbcore: registered new driver usbfs May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: usbcore: registered new driver hub May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: USB Universal Host Controller Interface driver v3.0 May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: ACPI: PCI Interrupt 0000:00:07.2[D] -> Link [LNKD] -> GSI 11 (level, low) -> IRQ 11 May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: uhci_hcd 0000:00:07.2: UHCI Host Controller May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: uhci_hcd 0000:00:07.2: new USB bus registered, assigned bus number 1 May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: uhci_hcd 0000:00:07.2: irq 11, io base 0x0000dce0 May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: usb usb1: configuration #1 chosen from 1 choice May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: hub 1-0:1.0: USB hub found May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: hub 1-0:1.0: 2 ports detected May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: ohci_hcd: 2005 April 22 USB 1.1 'Open' Host Controller (OHCI) Driver (PCI) May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: usb 1-1: new low speed USB device using uhci_hcd and address 2 May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: usb 1-1: configuration #1 chosen from 1 choice May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: input: Logitech USB-PS/2 Optical Mouse as /class/input/input2 May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: usbcore: registered new driver usbmouse May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: drivers/usb/input/usbmouse.c: v1.6:USB HID Boot Protocol mouse driver May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: usbcore: registered new driver usbkbd May 30 22:31:25 ws253 root: drivers/usb/input/usbkbd.c: :USB HID Boot Protocol keyboard driver May 30 22:31:32 ws253 root: udev detected add of floppy May 30 22:31:32 ws253 /bin/ltspfsd[1089]: Program started May 30 22:31:32 ws253 init: Entering runlevel: 5 May 30 22:31:32 ws253 root: udev detected add of cdrom May 30 22:32:31 ws253 ltspinfod: Connection from 10.10.1.5 port 51370 Then I logged on as a user: May 30 22:32:31 testbed gconfd (muleindeyard-22654): starting (version 2.14.0), pid 22654 user 'muleindeyard' May 30 22:32:31 testbed gconfd (muleindeyard-22654): Resolved address "xml:readonly:/etc/gconf/gconf.xml.mandatory" to a read-only configuration source at position 0 May 30 22:32:31 testbed gconfd (muleindeyard-22654): Resolved address "xml:readwrite:/home/muleindeyard/.gconf" to a writable configuration source at position 1 May 30 22:32:31 testbed gconfd (muleindeyard-22654): Resolved address "xml:readonly:/etc/gconf/gconf.xml.defaults" to a read-only configuration source at position 2 May 30 22:32:44 testbed gconfd (muleindeyard-22654): Resolved address "xml:readwrite:/home/muleindeyard/.gconf" to a writable configuration source at position 0 But I still have no local sound from the laptop. How can I probe for and detect the local sound device on the laptop while in a k12ltsp session? I don't seem to have access to any of the laptop devices? Regards, Murrah Boswell > > > Take Care, > Barry Cisna > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see > From informatik at steinerschule-basel.ch Sun May 31 12:13:12 2009 From: informatik at steinerschule-basel.ch (Informatik (Christian Ostheimer)) Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 14:13:12 +0200 Subject: [K12OSN] pxe boot menu feature request In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <94CC8ED7-5205-439F-8255-66AE45D9FD7B@steinerschule-basel.ch> Robert Arkiletian wrote: > I am wondering how many would like to see K12Linux have the ability > to > pxe boot to a boot menu that gives users a choice of booting from > network (LTSP) or boot from local hard drive (Linux or Windows)? Very useful in case you have a mixed lab. In my case 30 ltsp clients and 2 of them have windows as a second boot option. (dhcpd config contains mac addresses of clients; I use pxe-grub; pxelinux (based on syslinux) with textmenu extension should work as well. - In my setup pxe-grub works fine but needs to be compiled with a nic specific driver; so pxelinux with option keeppxe seems to be the better choice) Compared with bios based boot menu ("F12") you have with a pxe loaded boot menu the advantage that you can freely (and on the server) configure the bootmenu text and that you have full control which boot devices are allowed. However this should be strictly optional because it adds another layer of possible complications (e.g. http://syslinux.zytor.com/wiki/index.php/PXELINUX#What_Problems_Are_There_Currently_With_PXELINUX.3F ) Christian Ostheimer > > -- > Robert Arkiletian > Eric Hamber Secondary, Vancouver, Canada > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see > From rowens at ptd.net Sun May 31 12:55:06 2009 From: rowens at ptd.net (Rob Owens) Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 08:55:06 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] Lock down proxy settings and home page In-Reply-To: <4A1CCFE0.9060308@isp-systems.net> References: <4A1CCFE0.9060308@isp-systems.net> Message-ID: <20090531125506.GB7385@aurora.owens.net> I know that you can lock down settings in the Epiphany browser, using gconf. Users will find it very similar to Firefox. Google for "gnome lockdown". -Rob On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 10:30:08PM -0700, murrah boswell wrote: > Hello all, > > Does anybody know how to lock down proxy and home page settings in > firefox through K12LTSP EL5? I need to be able to selectively lock down > some workstations that will be in a "student" group so they can only > access certain educational sites. Access to these sites will be > controlled through a SquidGuard whitelist. > > I can do this fine using the login script function of Samba and Firefox > running on windows based workstations, and can also lock down IE. > > Locking down Firefox on windows workstation requires that I rewrite > (through vbs scripts pushed over at login and executed) some config files > under C:\Program Files\Mozilla Firefox and C:\Programs Files\Mozilla > Firefox\greprefs. Anybody know how to do get the same results through > K12LTSP EL5? > > I can force all thin client traffic through port 3128 with Squid running > as a transparent proxy and eliminate the need to configure client proxy > settings in Firefox, but I would also like to have clients authenticate > so I can manipulate SquidGuard based on username. > > > Regards, > Murrah Boswell > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see From rowens at ptd.net Sun May 31 12:58:49 2009 From: rowens at ptd.net (Rob Owens) Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 08:58:49 -0400 Subject: [K12OSN] pxe boot menu feature request In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090531125849.GC7385@aurora.owens.net> On Sat, May 30, 2009 at 11:19:25AM -0700, Robert Arkiletian wrote: > I am wondering how many would like to see K12Linux have the ability to > pxe boot to a boot menu that gives users a choice of booting from > network (LTSP) or boot from local hard drive (Linux or Windows)? > > DRBL does this and I think it's a great feature. It allows users to > choose the boot device (network or local HD) without changing bios > settings. It would allow easier integration of K12Linux into existing > Windows labs by allowing dual boot but still have pxe netboot as first > boot device in client bios. It can even be graphical with vesamenu.c32 > > http://syslinux.zytor.com/wiki/index.php/PXELINUX > > Comments, in favor, or against. > I like the idea but I think it should come as a preconfigured option (not as default), because in most cases I think users/admins won't need the choice and anything that slows down the boot process is undesirable. I imagine using such a boot menu to choose between LTSP 5, LTSP 4.2, DRBL, Clonezilla, netinstall of various distros, etc. -Rob From otrcomm at isp-systems.net Sun May 31 20:00:10 2009 From: otrcomm at isp-systems.net (murrah boswell) Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 13:00:10 -0700 Subject: [K12OSN] Local CD/DVD and USB Drive Problems From Terminal Message-ID: <4A22E1CA.1060002@isp-systems.net> Hello All, I am using the K12Linux 10 Live CD booted on a server from a USB stick! I read that K12Linux provides access to local devices like the CD/DVD drive but when I put a music cd into the local drive and try to play it, I get an error about not being able to mount /dev/sr0 because of Permission denied. How can I enable the clients to utilize local resources like the CD/DVD drive and USB dive? Regards, Murrah Boswell From peter at scheie.homedns.org Sun May 31 21:26:01 2009 From: peter at scheie.homedns.org (Peter Scheie) Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 16:26:01 -0500 Subject: [K12OSN] Local CD/DVD and USB Drive Problems From Terminal In-Reply-To: <4A22E1CA.1060002@isp-systems.net> References: <4A22E1CA.1060002@isp-systems.net> Message-ID: <4A22F5E9.30209@scheie.homedns.org> Access to local CD drives on the client does not support music CDs. They are a different format than data CDs. Peter murrah boswell wrote: > Hello All, > > I am using the K12Linux 10 Live CD booted on a server from a USB stick! > > I read that K12Linux provides access to local devices like the CD/DVD > drive but when I put a music cd into the local drive and try to play it, > I get an error about not being able to mount /dev/sr0 because of > Permission denied. > > How can I enable the clients to utilize local resources like the CD/DVD > drive and USB dive? > > > Regards, > Murrah Boswell > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see > From mparic at compbizsolutions.com Sun May 31 21:41:58 2009 From: mparic at compbizsolutions.com (Michael Paric) Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 14:41:58 -0700 Subject: [K12OSN] Lock down proxy settings and home page In-Reply-To: <20090531160024.1C192619BA8@hormel.redhat.com> References: <20090531160024.1C192619BA8@hormel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <4A19BF6F-748B-4321-9308-A56D98E499AE@compbizsolutions.com> The proxy, home page and other preferences are saved in the file: /home//.mozilla/firefox//prefs.js What we did at our high school was to create a master prefs.js file in the /etc/skel/ directory that was only writable by root (but readable by all). Then if we needed to update the preferences (change proxy server, home page, etc.) we ran this simple shell script called prefsupdate.sh as root: #/bin/bash cd /home for user in `ls -d *` do DEST=`ls /home/$user/.mozilla/firefox/*/prefs.js` echo $DEST cp --preserve=mode /etc/skel/prefs.js $DEST done Automatically updated everyone's Firefox preferences (including proxy settings) but since it was not writable by user, it effectively locked them out of changing it. Not automatic when adding new users but simple and quick enough to run when you did. Hope it helps! -------------------------------------------------------- Michael Paric Computer Business Solutions 707-317-6710 mparic at compbizsolutions.com www.compbizsolutions.com > Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 08:55:06 -0400 > From: Rob Owens > Subject: Re: [K12OSN] Lock down proxy settings and home page > To: "Support list for open source software in schools." > > Message-ID: <20090531125506.GB7385 at aurora.owens.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > I know that you can lock down settings in the Epiphany browser, > using gconf. Users will find it very similar to Firefox. Google > for "gnome lockdown". > > -Rob > > On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 10:30:08PM -0700, murrah boswell wrote: >> Hello all, >> >> Does anybody know how to lock down proxy and home page settings in >> firefox through K12LTSP EL5? I need to be able to selectively lock >> down >> some workstations that will be in a "student" group so they can only >> access certain educational sites. Access to these sites will be >> controlled through a SquidGuard whitelist. >> >> I can do this fine using the login script function of Samba and >> Firefox >> running on windows based workstations, and can also lock down IE. >> >> Locking down Firefox on windows workstation requires that I rewrite >> (through vbs scripts pushed over at login and executed) some config >> files >> under C:\Program Files\Mozilla Firefox and C:\Programs Files\Mozilla >> Firefox\greprefs. Anybody know how to do get the same results through >> K12LTSP EL5? >> >> I can force all thin client traffic through port 3128 with Squid >> running >> as a transparent proxy and eliminate the need to configure client >> proxy >> settings in Firefox, but I would also like to have clients >> authenticate >> so I can manipulate SquidGuard based on username. >> >> >> Regards, >> Murrah Boswell >> >> _______________________________________________ >> K12OSN mailing list >> K12OSN at redhat.com >> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn >> For more info see From otrcomm at isp-systems.net Sun May 31 22:17:42 2009 From: otrcomm at isp-systems.net (murrah boswell) Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 15:17:42 -0700 Subject: [K12OSN] Local CD/DVD and USB Drive Problems From Terminal In-Reply-To: <4A22F5E9.30209@scheie.homedns.org> References: <4A22E1CA.1060002@isp-systems.net> <4A22F5E9.30209@scheie.homedns.org> Message-ID: <4A230206.3060706@isp-systems.net> Hello Peter, Peter Scheie wrote: > Access to local CD drives on the client does not support music CDs. > They are a different format than data CDs. Okay, thanks for the info! Is there any way to support music CDs? Also, I did get the USB access working from the terminal, however, there is strange behavior. If I plug a USB stick in on the server, it shows up on my testing terminal desktop also. But if I just mount one from the terminal it does not appear on the server desktop. I do not want a USB stick mounted at the server to appear at the terminal(s)? Is this configurable, and if so, how? Regards, Murrah Boswell > > Peter > > murrah boswell wrote: >> Hello All, >> >> I am using the K12Linux 10 Live CD booted on a server from a USB stick! >> >> I read that K12Linux provides access to local devices like the CD/DVD >> drive but when I put a music cd into the local drive and try to play >> it, I get an error about not being able to mount /dev/sr0 because of >> Permission denied. >> >> How can I enable the clients to utilize local resources like the >> CD/DVD drive and USB dive? >> >> >> Regards, >> Murrah Boswell >> >> _______________________________________________ >> K12OSN mailing list >> K12OSN at redhat.com >> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn >> For more info see >> > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see > From otrcomm at isp-systems.net Sun May 31 23:43:39 2009 From: otrcomm at isp-systems.net (murrah boswell) Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 16:43:39 -0700 Subject: [K12OSN] Lock down proxy settings and home page In-Reply-To: <4A19BF6F-748B-4321-9308-A56D98E499AE@compbizsolutions.com> References: <20090531160024.1C192619BA8@hormel.redhat.com> <4A19BF6F-748B-4321-9308-A56D98E499AE@compbizsolutions.com> Message-ID: <4A23162B.3080103@isp-systems.net> Hello Michael, Michael Paric wrote: > The proxy, home page and other preferences are saved in the file: > > /home//.mozilla/firefox//prefs.js I am testing with K12Linux 5EL that uses Firefox 3 running on top of xulrunner. I tried to modify a test account prefs.js file but Firefox didn't pay any attention to the changes. I just tried to lock the browser.startup.homepage setting with: lockPref("browser.startup.page", 1); lockPref("browser.startup.homepage", "http://www.google.com/"); and it had no impact. Under K12LTSP 5, I can lock Firefox 2 down tighter than a drum, but Firefox 3 is another animal. What version of Firefox are you using? Thanks, Murrah Boswell > > What we did at our high school was to create a master prefs.js file in > the /etc/skel/ directory that was only writable by root (but readable by > all). Then if we needed to update the preferences (change proxy server, > home page, etc.) we ran this simple shell script called prefsupdate.sh > as root: > > #/bin/bash > cd /home > for user in `ls -d *` > do > DEST=`ls /home/$user/.mozilla/firefox/*/prefs.js` > echo $DEST > cp --preserve=mode /etc/skel/prefs.js $DEST > done > > Automatically updated everyone's Firefox preferences (including proxy > settings) but since it was not writable by user, it effectively locked > them out of changing it. Not automatic when adding new users but simple > and quick enough to run when you did. > > Hope it helps! > -------------------------------------------------------- > Michael Paric > Computer Business Solutions > 707-317-6710 > mparic at compbizsolutions.com > www.compbizsolutions.com > > >> Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 08:55:06 -0400 >> From: Rob Owens >> Subject: Re: [K12OSN] Lock down proxy settings and home page >> To: "Support list for open source software in schools." >> >> Message-ID: <20090531125506.GB7385 at aurora.owens.net> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> >> I know that you can lock down settings in the Epiphany browser, using >> gconf. Users will find it very similar to Firefox. Google for "gnome >> lockdown". >> >> -Rob >> >> On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 10:30:08PM -0700, murrah boswell wrote: >>> Hello all, >>> >>> Does anybody know how to lock down proxy and home page settings in >>> firefox through K12LTSP EL5? I need to be able to selectively lock down >>> some workstations that will be in a "student" group so they can only >>> access certain educational sites. Access to these sites will be >>> controlled through a SquidGuard whitelist. >>> >>> I can do this fine using the login script function of Samba and Firefox >>> running on windows based workstations, and can also lock down IE. >>> >>> Locking down Firefox on windows workstation requires that I rewrite >>> (through vbs scripts pushed over at login and executed) some config >>> files >>> under C:\Program Files\Mozilla Firefox and C:\Programs Files\Mozilla >>> Firefox\greprefs. Anybody know how to do get the same results through >>> K12LTSP EL5? >>> >>> I can force all thin client traffic through port 3128 with Squid running >>> as a transparent proxy and eliminate the need to configure client proxy >>> settings in Firefox, but I would also like to have clients authenticate >>> so I can manipulate SquidGuard based on username. >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> Murrah Boswell >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> K12OSN mailing list >>> K12OSN at redhat.com >>> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn >>> For more info see > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > K12OSN at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn > For more info see >