On the one hand you mention server, the other desktop, then you disregard my comment about using wine or crossover. I'm not really sure how to respond to your queries. IF you're really serious about wanting a fully working solution that includes a business server solution together with great fully working desktops, I'd suggest SLES and SLED, both of which have great easily integrated and working LDAP for server and client, as well as Thin terminal server support, and the host of other items. Kivio is indeed a QT native app, but its really very close to what Visio does, being free and all, it surely makes it worth it, but there is nothing stopping you from using Visio on Linux. In fact, the school I administered ran LTSP 5 which made it real easy to manage, and local apps microsoft items for those who wanted it. Wine is at a stage where pretty much everything major just works... yes, even access... and for the real easy solution crossover. Of course SLES, SLED, MS licenses and crossover are all paid solutions, but its still far less than paying individual licenses for MS Vista, MS Office for every station as well as anything else like small business server with active directory etc. Another solution is to use IBMs domino server, which runs quite well on Linux and is a fair replacement for SBS, but again a paid solution, though far less than the MS counterpart. My point is, there are many many alternatives, and its just about finding the right one to fit your needs. Linux is ready for the desktop and server and has been for about a year now. I'm betting that in 5 years, this wont even be a discussion anymore, but its funny how people still need to discover a lot of this to believe it. Someone else telling them the tools exist obviously isn't enough. <div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 5:21 PM, Moon <<a href="mailto:moon@smbis.com">moon@smbis.com</a>> wrote: <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> <div> SBS = Small Business Server. You missed the whole point, I am talking about Linux desktop being 100% ready, not band-aids to address lack of an equivalent app or functionality. Kivio is not much more than an upscale DIA at best. It's close, but it's no Visio by any measure. Kivio is a step in the right direction, but it requires installing the entire KOffice suite just to get the one application you want, Kivio. <div><div></div><div class="h5"> On Tue, 2009-05-19 at 21:51 +0200, David Van Assche wrote: <blockquote type="CITE"> <pre>hmmm.... what's an SBS? Anyway.... try kivio, works great, and if u really want visio, use that using wine or crossover, whatever you prefer. I really don't see your issue here. If you are looking for something that works out of the box (ie... a linux based system, pick a current distro and you are likely to get what you want, but for me openSUSE, ubuntu, fedora, pcbsd, and Mandriva all work just fine out of the box) On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 9:37 PM, Moon <<a href="mailto:moon@smbis.com" target="_blank">moon@smbis.com</a>> wrote: > Wasn't meant to insult, only point out the facts as I see them, and > obviously as others see them, reference the original web link comments. > > As I said in my original message, show me an SBS "equivalent" or one that > even comes close that works out of the box and I'll eat my words. Don't tell > me what you think, tell me which one is as good or better than SBS out of > the box. BTW, I'm aware of SME Server, ClarkConnect, eBox, SUSE's rendition, > and a host of other talk about SBS, like that on Ubuntu. But again, show me > one, just one that works out of the box. > > While you are at it, show me an equivalent to Visio in Linux, one that even > comes close, please... This application is the most popular voice/data > network documentation tool used in the IT industry. The best that Linux has > is DIA? > > > > > On Tue, 2009-05-19 at 11:25 -0600, David L. Willson wrote: > > ... >> obviously not basing their opinion on fact. > > Pretty insulting language, there. I think Linux is as ready for the desktop > as say, MacOS, and I'm basing that on fact, AFAIK. > >> I have been using Linux exclusively as my desktop platform for the >> past two years (willing to work through and around Linux desktop's >> shot comings) and can tell you honestly that there are a lot of >> shortcomings in Linux as a desktop client. Note that I have used >> CentOS, Fedora, and Ubuntu for the last four plus releases, as well as >> deployed K12LTSP and K12Linux in school labs for the past two plus >> years, so I have had extensive experience with the usability as well >> as issues with Linux. > > Same here, but longer. > >> Continuing to blindly favor and praise Linux desktop solely because of >> ones prejudices against Microsoft is foolishness ... > > Again, pretty insulting language. Isn't there a guide somewhere to > intelligently dissenting without insulting? > >> cause Linux to not address it's weaknesses and enhance it's usability >> for desktop users. Out of the box experience, what 90% of the >> computing user world experiences, determines their preferences, and if >> they have to go through Linux setup/configuration Hell to do it, guess >> what, they won't. Look at the statistics for the number of returned >> Linux based Netbook PCs vs Windows XP based Netbook PCs, that alone >> should tell us something. > > 'that people want a McComputer? That's what I get from it. And, where are > those statistics, so that I can look at them? > > And what Linux setup/configuration Hell are you talking about? Do people > build their own Windows PCs, and it's easier, or something? I've done both > many, many, many times, and they seem pretty similar in terms of complexity. > Linux compensates for the fact that Windows is on the box already, Windows > destroys Linux's ability to boot. Which is more Hellish? > >> It is in Linux best interest to seriously tune and optimize their >> desktop offerings. Secondly, Linux seriously needs a Small Business >> Server platform that competes with Microsoft's SBS. Continuing to >> ignore these two key areas will continue to be Linux Achilles heel to >> wider adoption. > > Linux has no best interest. The Linux community, or Free software > community, if you prefer, is a bunch of people and groups, each with their > own drivers. Many, but not all, of those people, are interested in the > things you infer that "Linux" is interested in, and they are doing exactly > what you suggest already. Read Shuttleworth's blog or the Ubuntu weekly > news or the Fedora weekly news or the OpenSUSE equivalent. You'll see. > Others in the community couldn't care less whether new users make the > switch; they only care about the quality of Linux, not it's attractive-ness > to Joe or Jane Windows-user as a design goal. I think that's where Red Hat > is. They're happy serving Linux users, and staying true to the Free > software thing, and being profitable, and that seems to be enough to worry > about. > > Have you checked out Zimbra? And, I think there a Linux SBS project out > there somewhere, and Ubuntu/eBox/et al really are doing a lot to commoditize > the more common server functions... > >> On Tue, 2009-05-19 at 10:00 -0600, David L. Willson wrote: >> >> I resemble that. For my part, I think Linux is completely ready for >> the desktop, but I'm not sure that the users are ready and I'm not >> sure that IT people are as ready as they think they are. So, my >> general-purpose advice is this: Go ahead and pilot Linux on the >> desktop, with an eye toward full deployment, but make darn sure you >> have a safety net: a Windows Terminal Server, a Virtual Machine, or a >> dual-boot handy for anything you might have overlooked. Working >> without a net is bad geekery. It scares users, and it should. Be >> humble. Serve the users that feed you. Study as hard as you can. >> Never, ever attack people, even when they're being "stupid" and >> "deserve it". --David ----- "Terrell Prude' Jr." < >> <a href="mailto:microman@cmosnetworks.com" target="_blank">microman@cmosnetworks.com</a> > wrote: > He's only done part of his >> homework. And some of those "points" are > just plain wrong. I smell >> an MCSE at work there.... > > --TP > > Alan Hodson wrote: > > Check >> out Tashkinov's article: > >> <a href="http://linuxfonts.narod.ru/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.html" target="_blank">http://linuxfonts.narod.ru/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.html</a> >> > > Serious food for thought! > > > > > > Alan A Hodson MEd. > > >> Instructional Applications Analyst > > El Paso Independent School >> District > > oF: 915-887-6871 > > fX: 915-772-4016 > > >> Nxt:915-892-0389 > > <a href="mailto:aahodson@episd.org" target="_blank">aahodson@episd.org</a> > > <a href="http://links.episd.org/" target="_blank">http://links.episd.org/</a> > >> > Open Source Grokker > > <a href="http://tinyurl.com/3e4sh8" target="_blank">http://tinyurl.com/3e4sh8</a> > > > > Life is >> not measured by the number of breaths we take, > > but by the moments >> that take our breath away > > -=o=- > > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > K12OSN mailing >> list > > <a href="mailto:K12OSN@redhat.com" target="_blank">K12OSN@redhat.com</a> > > >> <a href="https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn" target="_blank">https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn</a> > > For more info see < >> <a href="http://www.k12os.org" target="_blank">http://www.k12os.org</a> > > > > > >> _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list >> > <a href="mailto:K12OSN@redhat.com" target="_blank">K12OSN@redhat.com</a> > <a href="https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn" target="_blank">https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn</a> > >> For more info see < <a href="http://www.k12os.org" target="_blank">http://www.k12os.org</a> > >> _______________________________________________ K12OSN mailing list >> <a href="mailto:K12OSN@redhat.com" target="_blank">K12OSN@redhat.com</a> <a href="https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn" target="_blank">https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn</a> For >> more info see < <a href="http://www.k12os.org" target="_blank">http://www.k12os.org</a> > >> _______________________________________________ >> K12OSN mailing list >> <a href="mailto:K12OSN@redhat.com" target="_blank">K12OSN@redhat.com</a> >> <a href="https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn" target="_blank">https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn</a> >> For more info see <<a href="http://www.k12os.org" target="_blank">http://www.k12os.org</a>> > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > <a href="mailto:K12OSN@redhat.com" target="_blank">K12OSN@redhat.com</a> > <a href="https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn" target="_blank">https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn</a> > For more info see <<a href="http://www.k12os.org" target="_blank">http://www.k12os.org</a>> > > _______________________________________________ > K12OSN mailing list > <a href="mailto:K12OSN@redhat.com" target="_blank">K12OSN@redhat.com</a> > <a href="https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn" target="_blank">https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12osn</a> > For more info see <<a href="http://www.k12os.org" target="_blank">http://www.k12os.org</a>> > </pre> </blockquote> </div></div></div> </blockquote></div>