<HTML><BODY style="word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; "><DIV><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">It's not that we discriminate against cluster software :). We just have<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">some worries about the potential impact the cluster suite could bring to</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">the system. Extra CPU and memory cost is ok, we can consider that's part</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">of running GFS. The part that gets us wonder is any potential behavioral</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">changes and instability to the system. After all, the system is</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">effectively tunrned into a cluster. I read some of the emails in the</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">alias about cluster issues aside from GFS.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Behavior aside, with full understanding of how it works, clustering is neither complex nor particularly troublesome. Understand that the instability you read about comes not from the clustering but rather is the nature of sharing these resources between multiple machines.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>I operate over 40 clusters with a total of well over 100 nodes and I can assure you that the day I implemented comprehensive fencing (i.e. removed fence_manual and wrote a fencing agent for our platform) was very likely the best day of my life. Fencing is what makes a GFS cluster reliable.</DIV><BR><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">For instance, we support hot removal/insertion of nodes in the system,</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">I'm not clear how fencing will get in the way. We're not planning to add</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">any fencing hardware, and most likely will set fencing mechanism as</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">manual. Ideally, we'd like to disable fencing except the part that is</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">needed for running GFS.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>There are issues. As long as you don't change to a two-node cluster at some point (going from 1 node to 2 nodes or 3 nodes to 2 nodes) you should be able to achieve this. In my personal opinion, I would avoid running GFS on less than 3 nodes anyways (again, 2-node clusters exhibit behavior that is easily avoidable with a third box, even if it doesn't use the GFS).</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>In a controlled manner it is possible to unmount the FS, leave the cluster, then change the cluster composition from a still running node.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Adding isn't too much trouble.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>In either case I suggest a quorum disk (qdisk).</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>As for uncontrolled crashes fencing is absolutely necessary to recover state of the FS.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Complete fencing is absolutely necessary for running GFS.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Suggesting that you don't need (indeed want) fencing is an indication that you don't understand how GFS will share your data. Relying on manual fencing is a sign that you will likely lose a great deal of data someday. Redhat won't even support that configuration due to liability concerns.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Fencing only makes sure that a machine that has lost contact with the cluster does not trash your data.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Without fencing, a node that is out of control can (and will) trash your GFS. This will result in the downtime required to shut down the cluster, fsck the filesystem, and then bring it back up. It will also still likely trash some data.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Make no mistake, when fencing occurs, the system is already behaving badly. It fixes it, albeit brutally.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>With fence_manual, when you have any sort of outage whatsoever, one node will be hosed and the entire cluster will halt. At this point you will do one of three things:</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>1. You may just restart the entire cluster.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>or</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>2. You may correctly make sure the dead machine is truly dead. YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO DO THIS REMOTELY WITHOUT HARDWARE SUITABLE FOR FENCING. At that point you will call fence_ack_manual (manually) to free up the cluster.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>or</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>3. You may, in your haste, run fence_ack_manual to free up the cluster. If at any point the other node is not completely dead, your data may be forfeit. Worse, it may not be visible immediately, only after it is widely corrupted. At that point you will probably get the downed node running without realizing what damage you may have done.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>In the meantime, everyone mounting your GFS will be hung. A single hardware failure can freeze your cluster. Totally.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Note that to take the only path that saves your data (#2) you will have to have remote power switches or the like to reset a toasted node in all cases. So you will NOT save yourself any money and yet you WILL create trouble. Also, have you considered fencing at your network switch (for networked storage) or at your storage device itself? It is not always necessary to purchase remote power switches to fence your data.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>If you are not able to abide fencing, you probably should farm this out to someone who can.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Fencing is the way to avoid the bad behavior you have read about. It is not the cause of trouble--it's the solution. GFS absolutely must have it in its entirety or no dice. </DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>If you would like a more official, professional explanation as to why this is absolutely, unequivocally necessary, contact me by e-mail. I'll call you. I could fly out. I can even give you a report with a letterhead and everything.</DIV><DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>However, removing fencing from GFS is not a possibility. It's not even really hard.</DIV><BR><DIV> <SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><DIV>-- </DIV><DIV>Jayson Vantuyl</DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="2"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 10px;"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 10px; ">Systems Architect</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></DIV><DIV><B style="font-weight: bold; "><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-weight: bold; ">Engine Yard</SPAN></B></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" size="2"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 10px;"><SPAN class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 10px; "><A href="mailto:jvantuyl@engineyard.com">jvantuyl@engineyard.com</A></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></DIV></SPAN><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"></SPAN></DIV><BR></BODY></HTML>