From moorejon at usd465.com Mon Jul 12 21:35:46 2004 From: moorejon at usd465.com (Jonathan Moore) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:35:46 -0500 Subject: [OS:N:] MoodleMoot Message-ID: <1089668146.40f3043213615@imp.usd465.com> I thought this would be of interest to the list. ***** Forwarded From Michelle Moore contact info below ****** Are you looking for a quality open source alternative to Blackboard and WebCT? If so, I would like to encourage you to check out Moodle. Moodle is an open source online course management system. Moodle is full-featured, user-friendly, and currently experiencing tremendous growth. You can preview and download Moodle at http://moodle.org, but I am would like to tell you about another opportunity to learn more about Moodle. This summer, in coordination with the MACE (Mid-America Association for Computers in Education) conference, I am hosting the first US MoodleMoot. MoodleMoot US will be a conference for both experienced Moodle users and Moodle ?newbies? interested in learning more about this powerful tool. The highlight of the day will be a presentation via the Internet by Moodle developer Martin Dougiamas. Participants can also anticipate an "Introduction to Moodle" session as well as sessions to discuss Moodle implementation, mini-workshops focused on specific Moodle modules, and roundtables to share different Moodle sites. There will even be a session to help you learn how to set up your own Moodle server. MoodleMoot US will take place on July 28th at Blue Valley Northwest High School in Overland Park, Kansas. To register for MoodleMoot and the MACE conference, please visit http://mace-ks.org. To learn more about MoodleMoot, please visit http://usd465.com/~michelle_moore/moodle. If you have questions, please email me at michelle_moore at no-usd465.com-spam or call 620-222-7907. Thank you, Michelle Moore -- Jonathan Moore Director of Technology Winfield Public Schools Office 620.221.5100 Fax 620.221.0508 -- Jonathan Moore Director of Technology Winfield Public Schools Office 620.221.5100 Fax 620.221.0508 Visit Winfield Public Schools at http://usd465.com ------------------------------------------------- This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/ From opensource at whitenitro.com Fri Jul 23 03:45:03 2004 From: opensource at whitenitro.com (OpenSourceFan) Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 23:45:03 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] OSCON and OS Eduction BoF Message-ID: Hello All - I was wondering if anyone was going to the Open Source conference in Portland OR next week. I am new to the Open Source community but have 20+ years designing educational software and I am very interested in learning about success stories in K-12 using OS solutions. As a method to learn more, I suggested to the O'Reilly crew running the conference that they offer a Birds of a Feather (BoF) session on Open Source and Education. Here is the blurb I submitted: "With K-12 schools chronically short of funding and Open Source solutions being largely 'free', why have OS solutions not taken over the high school environment? Is it lack of understanding or the traditional worries of support? How are Open Sources operating systems, tools and applications currently being used in high schools and colleges beyond the traditional LAMP server uses? Macintosh and Wintel computers fill most high school labs but there are success stories for OS solutions. What are they and how can we get the word out? Come and share your successes, failures and hopes for the future." After having submitted this suggestion, and having it accepted and scheduled, had the horrible, sinking feeling that people might show up expecting *me* to know something or at least be able to open the discussion with some basic facts, URLs, etc. Panic. So, I am wondering if anyone who actually knows something or has stories to relate might be going to OSCON or, barring that, can this group point me to web sites, provide sources for statistics, stories, etc that I could study over the weekend to get a crash course in what is happening nationally. Key questions that would be great to get the collective wisdom of this group to jump start a discussion next week include: 1) What is an estimate for the percentage of machines in K-12 schools that are running Open Source solutions? 2) What are the top 3 reasons that OS systems are not more widely adopted? 3) Would people be interested in contributing chapters to a book if we could find a publisher interested in releasing a book about the subject? Here are some resources already on my list (but please let me know what I haven't included): http://www.redhat.com/opensourcenow/intro.html http://www.netc.org/openoptions/ http://edge-op.org/grouch/schools.html http://www.k12ltsp.org/ http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=6349 http://baldwinets.tripod.com/linux.html http://www.schoolforge.net/ http://www.osef.org/ http://www.k12os.org/ http://www.opentextbook.org/ Any and all advice greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance for any help. Apologies in advance for cross posting this on k12osn at redhat.com and open-source-now-list at redhat.com. Bryant Patten White Nitro, LLC From mfioretti at mclink.it Fri Jul 23 07:17:43 2004 From: mfioretti at mclink.it (M. Fioretti) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 09:17:43 +0200 Subject: [OS:N:] OSCON and OS Eduction BoF In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040723071743.GM10441@mclink.it> On Thu, Jul 22, 2004 23:45:03 PM -0400, OpenSourceFan (opensource at whitenitro.com) wrote: > 2) What are the top 3 reasons that OS systems are not more widely > adopted? The first one is being locked in proprietary formats: you might adore the FLOSS philosophy, learn Unix by night and adapt to a different interface, but if you lose your Access DBs, Outlook addressbook, the formatting of all your Word and Spreadsheet files is less than perfect and the embedded macros don't work anymore *you* and your business are blocked. > 3) Would people be interested in contributing chapters to a book if > we could find a publisher interested in releasing a book about the > subject? Maybe, please keep me posted. And consider listing RULE (see sig) as a resource, for those cases where k12/ltsp solutions simply cannot be used. Ciao, Marco Fioretti -- Marco Fioretti mfioretti, at the server mclink.it Red Hat & Fedora for low memory http://www.rule-project.org/ I doni ricevuti dal Padreterno, servono se utilizzati: chi li contempla gode, ma chi ne fa uso probabilmente aiuta altri a godere. From houghton at email.wcu.edu Fri Jul 23 18:33:22 2004 From: houghton at email.wcu.edu (Bob Houghton) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 14:33:22 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] OSCON and OS Eduction BoF and the future Message-ID: <9F049C291D551F4DAFDF27E857FE0F437D0FB8@exchange6.wcu.edu> Bryant, Thanks for pulling folks together on this topic. I look forward to hearing the wisdom you collect there. Please share when you return. Cost is the primary factor in the spread of innovations. But that does not mean that other factors are not important. One must have access. It is not yet sufficiently accessible. Yes, it is free for the download, but even for many active computer users, the complexities of install, setup, and transfer of data into new applications is too high a bar with too much risk. Dual boot just adds to the complexity. The only safe way is to buy a second computer just for Linux, et al and that drives the cost factor back up. Linux and Open Source have met the technological challenge of developing an effective competitor as an OS. Free Hotspots (wireless) in many communities may solve the online access problem. But what stands behind the Mac and Win OSs are layers of effective organizations of people, from the corporate vendor down through in-institution technical help. Open Source must decide if it is willing to deal with the next challenge of developing something similar or better. The Salvation Army, the Red Cross and others built their way up from grass-roots issues. Is the Open Source initiative that motivated? Red Hat and others have wisely chosen not to wait on the all volunteer model, and therefore theirs is based on cost for service. It takes a long time to build something to match the scale of Microsoft so things are moving slowly. One genius started and continues Linux; others champion other code projects. Can the coders develop code which takes so little maintenance and has such great online automated code updating that others can build a free technical resource team. It will most likely take someone to develop a "kernel" of a volunteer organization that can scale to national levels to handle the technical support needed here. What social kernels within or outside Open Source do we have that can scale? I believe that organizational leadership is the next major challenge facing the free Open Source movement. Universal access to issues, debate, help and knowledge for all sides of the digital divide on all continents are just part of the goals and rewards. The cost of failure remains universal access to weapons of destruction. Ending that cycle of waste more quickly is a significant inspiration as well. Is the Open Source initiative that motivated? Sorry that I can't be with you at the Conference. How can I help? Bob Houghton http://ceap.wcu.edu/houghton/EDELCompEduc/Ch1/linux.html ****************** From willy at linuxgazette.com Fri Jul 23 21:12:10 2004 From: willy at linuxgazette.com (Willy Smith) Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 16:12:10 -0500 Subject: [OS:N:]FOSS in Malaysia In-Reply-To: <9F049C291D551F4DAFDF27E857FE0F437D0FB8@exchange6.wcu.edu> References: <9F049C291D551F4DAFDF27E857FE0F437D0FB8@exchange6.wcu.edu> Message-ID: <200407231612.11135.willy@linuxgazette.com> Hi, I was searching this morning for material for a42.com on what's going on in Malaysia, and found this PDF presentation which I thought might be interesting for some of you. It tells about their project to encourage FOSS both in government and educational institutions. Here's the original link: http://opensource.mimos.my/our_participation/slides/LinuxWorld - An Open Source Policy for Malaysia v5.2.pdf Since there are spaces in the URL, you may have to try this: http://opensource.mimos.my/our_participation/slides/ LinuxWorld%20-%20An% 20Open%20Source%20Policy%20for%20Malaysia%20v5.2.pdf I also put a mirror of the document with a filename which has no spaces here: http://www.a42.com/library/OSPolicyMalaysiaV5_2.pdf Short, but very interesting and has references to what's going on in some other countries. Please excuse if this is a duplicate post. Regards, -- Willy Smith Editor in Chief www.LinuxGazette.com www.a42.com Ciudad Panam?, Panam? Central America From cspencer at cait.org Sat Jul 24 12:49:04 2004 From: cspencer at cait.org (Chris Spencer) Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 07:49:04 -0500 Subject: [OS:N:] OSCON and OS Eduction BoF In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1090673344.2318.1285.camel@cnote> > So, I am wondering if anyone who actually knows something or has > stories to relate might be going to OSCON or, barring that, can this > group point me to web sites, provide sources for statistics, stories, > etc that I could study over the weekend to get a crash course in what > is happening nationally. Join up with tech-geeks.org's mailing list and ask the same questions. It seems that the unfunded no child left behind mandates forced almost every school in Illinois into a pretty tight spot. Most of them now have at least some Linux servers in their server room. Things like email, web servers, proxy servers, file servers, and firewalls are all in common use. Although I am not aware of any schools in Illinois using Linux desktops I am aware of some of the schools embracing open source desktop apps under other OS's. Open office and Mozilla are probably the most popular. -Chris From jhogan at redhat.com Sun Aug 1 18:53:31 2004 From: jhogan at redhat.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 14:53:31 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] The new and improved(?) redhat.com Message-ID: <1091386411.2961.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> Folks, After a lot of thought, surveys, discussions and feedback, we've revamped www.redhat.com. Including an initial update to the www.redhat.com/opensourcenow pages. For much of the web site this is a milestone of completion. For the Open Source Now section, it's a beginning. Please take a free moment to take a look and offer suggestions or two on how to improve that section. Functionality you'd like, info you'd hope to find there, etc. Thanks! --jeremy From satheeshkumarap at yahoo.com Wed Aug 11 05:41:59 2004 From: satheeshkumarap at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?satheesh=20ap?=) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 06:41:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: [OS:N:] new member Message-ID: <20040811054159.94705.qmail@web8304.mail.in.yahoo.com> hai open source people, i am satheesh ,an indian.Doing my MCA(master of computer applications).And i am very much interested to join int the open source world.wish u open best to u. ________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! India Matrimony: Find your life partner online Go to: http://yahoo.shaadi.com/india-matrimony From jhogan at redhat.com Wed Aug 11 14:39:02 2004 From: jhogan at redhat.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 10:39:02 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] new member In-Reply-To: <20040811054159.94705.qmail@web8304.mail.in.yahoo.com> References: <20040811054159.94705.qmail@web8304.mail.in.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1092235142.2592.2.camel@dhcp63-232.rdu.redhat.com> On Wed, 2004-08-11 at 01:41, satheesh ap wrote: > hai open source people, > i am satheesh ,an indian.Doing my MCA(master of > computer applications).And i am very much interested > to join int the open source world.wish u open best to u. Welcome Sateesh! --jeremy From rwcitek at alum.calberkeley.org Thu Aug 12 16:53:53 2004 From: rwcitek at alum.calberkeley.org (Robert Citek) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 11:53:53 -0500 Subject: [OS:N:] Messaging system & support In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040812100556.04cb5210@mail.prin.edu> Message-ID: <3143C14F-EC80-11D8-AE6B-000A95880F88@alum.calberkeley.org> Hello all, I got this message from a friend. On Thursday, Aug 12, 2004, at 10:06 US/Central, [a friend] wrote: > I'm managing a project here at [some company] to replace our email > system from the current unix-based sendmail/smtp/pop3 setup with > Eudora clients to something else--whatever that turns out to be. We > have people demanding built-in calendaring and while they could use > Outlook as a client with our current server offerings, the calendaring > won't be as nice as if we had an Exchange Server behind it. > > I have no problem finding people to install and support Exchange, but > I'm trying to present alternatives as well. The leader seems to be > SuSE Linux's Openexchange Server (now owned by Novell). But I don't > know who could support us on that locally. > > Do you know of any companies that could give us really good support on > whatever system we choose, even up to 24/7/365 if we want to pay for > that? Any ideas? Specifically: - What other products offer built-in (or nearly built-in) Calendaring? - Any opinions on SLOX? - Is there any reason not to use Exchange? - What other questions should my friend be asking? Regards, - Robert From etienne.goyer at linuxquebec.com Thu Aug 12 17:48:33 2004 From: etienne.goyer at linuxquebec.com (Etienne Goyer) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 13:48:33 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] Messaging system & support In-Reply-To: <3143C14F-EC80-11D8-AE6B-000A95880F88@alum.calberkeley.org> References: <3143C14F-EC80-11D8-AE6B-000A95880F88@alum.calberkeley.org> Message-ID: <411BAD71.4090504@linuxquebec.com> Robert Citek wrote: > - What other questions should my friend be asking? Yes: do they *really* need an Outlook+Exchange combo level of features ? Whatever they choose (Exchange, OpenExchange, another groupware, etc), they will be paying a lot of money in license and/or setup. If they are ok about restricting the scope of their requirement to email only, there are many free and very robust Open-Source solution. The big problem here would be at the client end. Outlook is very featureful, and these features are thightly coupled to Exchange via mostly proprietary standard. I do not think Outlook (for example, subsitute your favorite MUA here) have a very seemless way to connect to the various network calendering scheme (iCal-over-WebDAV, CAP, etc). I never really understood the PIM concept anyway. For me, email, contacts management and calendering are three separate application domain. I profoundly dislike the bloat of all-in-one client such as Outlook (and Evolution), but everybody seem dead set on them. Go figure. One last thing : latest Exchange require Active Directory. If they don't already have one, they should be aware of it and be prepared for some work setting up one should they choose the Exchange route. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 252 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From kjcole at gri.gallaudet.edu Thu Aug 12 18:13:46 2004 From: kjcole at gri.gallaudet.edu (Kevin Cole) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 14:13:46 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] Messaging system & support In-Reply-To: <3143C14F-EC80-11D8-AE6B-000A95880F88@alum.calberkeley.org> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20040812100556.04cb5210@mail.prin.edu> <3143C14F-EC80-11D8-AE6B-000A95880F88@alum.calberkeley.org> Message-ID: <20040812181346.GC30099@gri.gallaudet.edu> On Thu, Aug 12, 2004 at 11:53:53AM -0500, Robert Citek wrote: > Any ideas? Specifically: > - What other products offer built-in (or nearly built-in) Calendaring? Does Ximian Evolution, in combination with Ximian Connector do that sort of thing? (I don't know cuz I don't have need of such and haven't really paid attention, but I got that sense...) -- Kevin Cole | Key ID: 0xE6F332C7 Gallaudet University | WWW: http://gri.gallaudet.edu/~kjcole/ Hall Memorial Bldg S-419 | V/TTY: (202) 651-5135 Washington, D.C. 20002-3695 | FAX: (202) 651-5746 "Using vi is not a sin. It's a penance." -- St. IGNUcious, Church of Emacs From hwolff at sunshineincnwo.com Thu Aug 12 18:29:57 2004 From: hwolff at sunshineincnwo.com (Hans Wolff) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 14:29:57 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] Messaging system & support In-Reply-To: <3143C14F-EC80-11D8-AE6B-000A95880F88@alum.calberkeley.org> References: <3143C14F-EC80-11D8-AE6B-000A95880F88@alum.calberkeley.org> Message-ID: <411BB725.50902@sunshineincnwo.com> Our company recently went through the same bout with high level employees wanting shared calendars, contact lists, etc, etc, and we went as-so-far as "buying" the demo copy of SLOX. My opinion on SLOX is, it's a great system in progress, but the Outlook clients are still very grim in terms of stability and features. Their method of thinking goes so far that any shared calendars you are subscribed to also show up in your main personal calendar, and there's no way around that (we have some employees that need to see room calendars but don't need to have them clutter their primary calendar). We also had multiple calendar events that didn't show up on one screen or another, and support, as opposed to other open source projects, has been in my opinion terrible for SLOX. The server appears to be quite reliable, and the webmail for SLOX is great as well. I would wait a bit longer, however, for the Outlook plugins to catch up before you consider it a viable alternative. Which brings me to my next point.. price. SLOX used to be relatively affordable when you include the Outlook client, although after the Novell merger their pricing is on par with Groupwise and Domino/Notes. Yes, SLOX was recently open-sourced (www.open-xchange.com I believe), but that is for the server technology only and not their still-proprietary offline slox client (developed by Netline). We were very interested in using SLOX, but after considering pricing, support, and its questionable future and viability we had to turn it down. That brought us to decide upon Groupwise, Domino, or Exchange. Being the Linux shop we are and past horrid experience with Exchange, it was my task to decide between Groupwise and Domino. Now, I do not know what type of company this company is for, but for a large non-profit with a non-existent technology budget, we ended up chosing Lotus. If you just need basic calendaring, email, and shared contact lists, Lotus Domino/Notes Messaging Express has a competitive trade-up program right now from any competitor's email package (yes, including Sendmail!) for $47/user. The license includes Domino Server, Lotus Notes, Web access, and their Sametime/instant messaging server. We are currently testing the platform out on a Dell PowerEdge 1600SC server with 10 licenses before we begin rolling it out to everyone and begin formal training, and so far it appears to be the winner. Groupwise, while a great package, was twice the price due to them not considering Sendmail a competitve upgrade, and as such we did not consider it any further due to cost. I hope my experience helps you out a bit. If you have any more questions, don't be afraid to ask. Hans Wolff Network Systems Administrator Sunshine Inc of NW Ohio Robert Citek wrote: > > Hello all, > > I got this message from a friend. > > On Thursday, Aug 12, 2004, at 10:06 US/Central, [a friend] wrote: > >> I'm managing a project here at [some company] to replace our email >> system from the current unix-based sendmail/smtp/pop3 setup with >> Eudora clients to something else--whatever that turns out to be. We >> have people demanding built-in calendaring and while they could use >> Outlook as a client with our current server offerings, the >> calendaring won't be as nice as if we had an Exchange Server behind it. >> >> I have no problem finding people to install and support Exchange, but >> I'm trying to present alternatives as well. The leader seems to be >> SuSE Linux's Openexchange Server (now owned by Novell). But I don't >> know who could support us on that locally. >> >> Do you know of any companies that could give us really good support >> on whatever system we choose, even up to 24/7/365 if we want to pay >> for that? > > > Any ideas? Specifically: > - What other products offer built-in (or nearly built-in) Calendaring? > - Any opinions on SLOX? > - Is there any reason not to use Exchange? > - What other questions should my friend be asking? > > Regards, > - Robert > > > _______________________________________________ > Subscription and Archive: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ > - > For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: > ______________________________________ This electronic mail transmission, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential information. Any unauthorized use, review, disclosure, or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and delete all copies of the original message. From jhogan at redhat.com Thu Aug 12 18:55:06 2004 From: jhogan at redhat.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 14:55:06 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] Messaging system & support In-Reply-To: <20040812181346.GC30099@gri.gallaudet.edu> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20040812100556.04cb5210@mail.prin.edu> <3143C14F-EC80-11D8-AE6B-000A95880F88@alum.calberkeley.org> <20040812181346.GC30099@gri.gallaudet.edu> Message-ID: <1092336906.2591.73.camel@dhcp63-232.rdu.redhat.com> On Thu, 2004-08-12 at 14:13, Kevin Cole wrote: > Does Ximian Evolution, in combination with Ximian Connector do that > sort of thing? (I don't know cuz I don't have need of such and haven't > really paid attention, but I got that sense...) It will connect Evolution to MS Exchange. Netline's Open-Xchange will though. IIRC that's the code base they also began www.opengroupware.org with. --jeremy From jay at scherrer.com Thu Aug 12 19:23:02 2004 From: jay at scherrer.com (Jay Scherrer) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 12:23:02 -0700 Subject: [OS:N:] Messaging system & support In-Reply-To: <3143C14F-EC80-11D8-AE6B-000A95880F88@alum.calberkeley.org> References: <3143C14F-EC80-11D8-AE6B-000A95880F88@alum.calberkeley.org> Message-ID: <200408121223.04234.jay@scherrer.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Robert, Have you tried Evolution for your e-mail and calendering : comes standard with fedora and redhat 9. fedora has a good support team of users Free, And so does Redhat through subscription. Jay On Thursday 12 August 2004 09:53 am, Robert Citek wrote: > Hello all, > > I got this message from a friend. > > On Thursday, Aug 12, 2004, at 10:06 US/Central, [a friend] wrote: > > I'm managing a project here at [some company] to replace our email > > system from the current unix-based sendmail/smtp/pop3 setup with > > Eudora clients to something else--whatever that turns out to be. We > > have people demanding built-in calendaring and while they could use > > Outlook as a client with our current server offerings, the calendaring > > won't be as nice as if we had an Exchange Server behind it. > > > > I have no problem finding people to install and support Exchange, but > > I'm trying to present alternatives as well. The leader seems to be > > SuSE Linux's Openexchange Server (now owned by Novell). But I don't > > know who could support us on that locally. > > > > Do you know of any companies that could give us really good support on > > whatever system we choose, even up to 24/7/365 if we want to pay for > > that? > > Any ideas? Specifically: > - What other products offer built-in (or nearly built-in) Calendaring? > - Any opinions on SLOX? > - Is there any reason not to use Exchange? > - What other questions should my friend be asking? > > Regards, > - Robert > > > _______________________________________________ > Subscription and Archive: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ - > For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBG8OW7+UFWg+1k3YRAhuNAJ9ylTlztpduJ2juQNp+ZCa+naGaOgCeKXcL TxUXYC8akcRbE798RqjDddM= =VT8R -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From rwcitek at alum.calberkeley.org Thu Aug 12 21:00:32 2004 From: rwcitek at alum.calberkeley.org (Robert Citek) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 16:00:32 -0500 Subject: [OS:N:] Messaging system & support In-Reply-To: <200408121223.04234.jay@scherrer.com> Message-ID: On Thursday, Aug 12, 2004, at 14:23 US/Central, Jay Scherrer wrote: > On Thursday 12 August 2004 09:53 am, Robert Citek wrote: >> On Thursday, Aug 12, 2004, at 10:06 US/Central, [a friend] wrote: >>> I'm managing a project here at [some company] to replace our email >>> system from the current unix-based sendmail/smtp/pop3 setup with >>> Eudora clients to something else--whatever that turns out to be. > > Have you tried Evolution for your e-mail and calendering : comes > standard with > fedora and redhat 9. > fedora has a good support team of users Free, And so does Redhat > through > subscription. From my friends e-mail I can only guess that his current setup involves Windows desktops and Unix/Linux servers. Given that, what would a Fedora or RHEL solution look like? BTW, I've e-mailed him some questions about his network setup and critical applications, but have not heard back, yet. Regards, - Robert From rwcitek at alum.calberkeley.org Fri Aug 13 15:44:04 2004 From: rwcitek at alum.calberkeley.org (Robert Citek) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 10:44:04 -0500 Subject: [OS:N:] Messaging system & support In-Reply-To: <3143C14F-EC80-11D8-AE6B-000A95880F88@alum.calberkeley.org> Message-ID: <9AEBE41E-ED3F-11D8-A60C-000A95880F88@alum.calberkeley.org> On Thursday, Aug 12, 2004, at 11:53 US/Central, Robert Citek wrote: > Any ideas? Specifically: > - What other products offer built-in (or nearly built-in) Calendaring? > - Any opinions on SLOX? > - Is there any reason not to use Exchange? > - What other questions should my friend be asking? I've created an initial summary page here: http://www.cwelug.org/cgi-bin/wiki.cgi?GroupWare Will be filling it in based on the e-mail comments. But everyone is welcome to add their own ideas, too. Regards, - Robert From etienne.goyer at linuxquebec.com Fri Aug 13 15:55:55 2004 From: etienne.goyer at linuxquebec.com (Etienne Goyer) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 11:55:55 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] Messaging system & support In-Reply-To: <9AEBE41E-ED3F-11D8-A60C-000A95880F88@alum.calberkeley.org> References: <9AEBE41E-ED3F-11D8-A60C-000A95880F88@alum.calberkeley.org> Message-ID: <411CE48B.6010907@linuxquebec.com> Robert Citek wrote: > I've created an initial summary page here: > > http://www.cwelug.org/cgi-bin/wiki.cgi?GroupWare I can't reach it. Either your server is offline, or it is overloaded. Just to let you know ... -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 252 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From rwcitek at alum.calberkeley.org Fri Aug 13 15:57:29 2004 From: rwcitek at alum.calberkeley.org (Robert Citek) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 10:57:29 -0500 Subject: [OS:N:] Messaging system & support In-Reply-To: <411CE48B.6010907@linuxquebec.com> Message-ID: <7AC754EC-ED41-11D8-A60C-000A95880F88@alum.calberkeley.org> On Friday, Aug 13, 2004, at 10:55 US/Central, Etienne Goyer wrote: > I can't reach it. Either your server is offline, or it is overloaded. > Just to let you know ... Must've just happened. Can't get to it either from work. Will have to check in a couple hours when I head over to the servers. Sorry about that. Regards, - Robert From rwcitek at alum.calberkeley.org Fri Aug 13 20:35:52 2004 From: rwcitek at alum.calberkeley.org (Robert Citek) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 15:35:52 -0500 Subject: [OS:N:] Messaging system & support In-Reply-To: <411CE48B.6010907@linuxquebec.com> Message-ID: <5E65729E-ED68-11D8-98BD-000A95880F88@alum.calberkeley.org> On Friday, Aug 13, 2004, at 10:55 US/Central, Etienne Goyer wrote: > I can't reach it. Either your server is offline, or it is overloaded. > Just to let you know ... Turns out it was the proverbial "backhoe + fiber" problem. Someone had cut the cable. It works now. Regards, - Robert From mattfrye at gmail.com Tue Aug 24 19:08:23 2004 From: mattfrye at gmail.com (Matt Frye) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 15:08:23 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] Developing for developers and users In-Reply-To: <95796EEB962111468091DAAB4ABE934E03F1A4B8@tinman3.rexhealth.com> References: <95796EEB962111468091DAAB4ABE934E03F1A4B8@tinman3.rexhealth.com> Message-ID: <7f1eacdd040824120898797a6@mail.gmail.com> This article http://www.builderau.com.au/webdev/0,39024680,39130602,00.htm received the typical treatment on Slashdot because Jakob Nielsen said some unpopular things about open source development. However, Nielsen makes some good points that kind of echo Eugene Eric Kim's thoughts in his Manifesto for Collaborative Tools - http://www.redhat.com/archives/open-source-now-list/2004-April/msg00009.html From mattfrye at gmail.com Tue Aug 24 20:40:13 2004 From: mattfrye at gmail.com (Matt Frye) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 16:40:13 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] Developing for developers and users In-Reply-To: <7f1eacdd040824120898797a6@mail.gmail.com> References: <95796EEB962111468091DAAB4ABE934E03F1A4B8@tinman3.rexhealth.com> <7f1eacdd040824120898797a6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7f1eacdd040824134019b0ac36@mail.gmail.com> This article http://www.builderau.com.au/webdev/0,39024680,39130602,00.htm received the typical treatment on Slashdot because Jakob Nielsen said some unpopular things about open source development. However, Nielsen makes some good points that kind of echo Eugene Eric Kim's thoughts in his Manifesto for Collaborative Tools - http://www.redhat.com/archives/open-source-now-list/2004-April/msg00009.html Specifically... - developers are designing for each other - value systems are kind of opposite for what average users need and what open source developers want to do - when they (open source developers) turn to the general tools they tend to be in the line of "let's implement what we already know" so they will take Microsoft Office and they will clone it. We talked about the effects of these problems on Linux and OSS at a Redhat meetup a few months ago. The example we used was the similarity between Outlook and Evolution. While this kind of development fills a need and expands the audience, the effects are temporary. In 15 years when people are complaining about Linux (and Microsoft is a much different company), will something else will come along and we have to have this discussion all over again? Innovation is the key to not repeating the mistakes of our computing past. Matt Frye From etienne.goyer at linuxquebec.com Tue Aug 24 20:49:39 2004 From: etienne.goyer at linuxquebec.com (Etienne Goyer) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 16:49:39 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] Developing for developers and users In-Reply-To: <7f1eacdd040824134019b0ac36@mail.gmail.com> References: <95796EEB962111468091DAAB4ABE934E03F1A4B8@tinman3.rexhealth.com> <7f1eacdd040824120898797a6@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd040824134019b0ac36@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <412BA9E3.6050206@linuxquebec.com> Matt Frye wrote: > - when they (open source developers) turn to the general tools they > tend to be in the line of "let's implement what we already know" so they > will take Microsoft Office and they will clone it. I don't really understand the stigma associated with that. Why reinvent the wheel when you can improve it ? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 252 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From mattfrye at gmail.com Tue Aug 24 21:38:01 2004 From: mattfrye at gmail.com (Matt Frye) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 17:38:01 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] Developing for developers and users In-Reply-To: <412BA9E3.6050206@linuxquebec.com> References: <95796EEB962111468091DAAB4ABE934E03F1A4B8@tinman3.rexhealth.com> <7f1eacdd040824120898797a6@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd040824134019b0ac36@mail.gmail.com> <412BA9E3.6050206@linuxquebec.com> Message-ID: <7f1eacdd04082414386955eea4@mail.gmail.com> Your argument would make more sense if they were actually improving on something. I don't remember Microsoft opening up any code so that OSS developers could improve on it. They _are_ reinventing the wheel by writing applications that mimick MS Office, etc. I think the point that Nielsen is making (and that Kim already made) is that there _are_ better methods out there, but developers aren't taking advantage of them. "Open source software offers an excellent and underutilized avenue for disseminating innovations in user interface." from Kim's Manifesto Why imitate Microsoft's wheel when you can create a better one? MPF On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 16:49:39 -0400, Etienne Goyer wrote: > Matt Frye wrote: > > - when they (open source developers) turn to the general tools they > > tend to be in the line of "let's implement what we already know" so they > > will take Microsoft Office and they will clone it. > > I don't really understand the stigma associated with that. Why reinvent > the wheel when you can improve it ? > > > _______________________________________________ > Subscription and Archive: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ > - > For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: > > > > > > From kjcole at gri.gallaudet.edu Tue Aug 24 23:19:08 2004 From: kjcole at gri.gallaudet.edu (Kevin Cole) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 19:19:08 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] Developing for developers and users In-Reply-To: <7f1eacdd04082414386955eea4@mail.gmail.com> References: <95796EEB962111468091DAAB4ABE934E03F1A4B8@tinman3.rexhealth.com> <7f1eacdd040824120898797a6@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd040824134019b0ac36@mail.gmail.com> <412BA9E3.6050206@linuxquebec.com> <7f1eacdd04082414386955eea4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040824231908.GA21691@gri.gallaudet.edu> I'll go with Matt on that. Or at least I THINK I'm agreeing. ;-) One of the things I like about Linux is a powerful command line and the ability to string lots of little things together to do custom stuff. I see these monolithic programs that try to be a web-browser, mail program, calendar, addressbook, back-scratcher, word processor, spreadsheet, checkbook balancer, presentation, database, babysitter, veg-o-matic, and I fail to see the advantage of bundling them all together. Granted the components are used by a lot of people and it's nice to have all of them available. But simultaneously? For a better approach (at least in concept), take Mozilla: People were complaining, as I understand it, about it getting bloated. Enter Firefox and Thunderbird, which are usable as separate components that know how to work together. That, to me is the Unix/Linux Way. ;-) -- Kevin Cole | Key ID: 0xE6F332C7 Gallaudet University | WWW: http://gri.gallaudet.edu/~kjcole/ Hall Memorial Bldg S-419 | V/TTY: (202) 651-5135 Washington, D.C. 20002-3695 | FAX: (202) 651-5746 "Using vi is not a sin. It's a penance." -- St. IGNUcious, Church of Emacs From chris at forevergalleries.com Wed Aug 25 13:51:32 2004 From: chris at forevergalleries.com (Chris Spencer) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 08:51:32 -0500 Subject: [OS:N:] Developing for developers and users In-Reply-To: <7f1eacdd04082414386955eea4@mail.gmail.com> References: <95796EEB962111468091DAAB4ABE934E03F1A4B8@tinman3.rexhealth.com> <7f1eacdd040824120898797a6@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd040824134019b0ac36@mail.gmail.com> <412BA9E3.6050206@linuxquebec.com> <7f1eacdd04082414386955eea4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1093441891.30909.25.camel@cspencer> I must respectively disagree with you Matt. You use MS Office as an example likely thinking that OpenOffice simply mimics it and that it was built from the ground up. That is not the case though. OpenOffice was from an existing codebase that Sun Microsystems aquired and open sourced. Since the time that it was opened it has had developers significantly improve it. Features to export as a pdf from the writer and export as flash from the presentation piece, increased compatibility with Microsoft Office, XML document formats (very nice and small). Programming and all human knowledge is evolutionary much more so than revolutionary. The purpose of word processors was to emulate what people had been doing on paper and cave walls for thousands of years. Nothing revolutionary there. Don't get me wrong, people developing open source are inventing. There are experts in pretty much any field of science the world has to offer that are part of the open source movement. Take the work on cryptology. Invariably open source software was the proving ground for the inventions before they went mainstream. While much spit and polish goes into closed source products to give the external appearance of something new and revolutionary, often times it existed in open source projects for years prior. The inventions of tomorrows businesses are happening with open source today. Look to the big businesses for spit and polish. -Chris On Tue, 2004-08-24 at 16:38, Matt Frye wrote: > Your argument would make more sense if they were actually improving on > something. I don't remember Microsoft opening up any code so that OSS > developers could improve on it. They _are_ reinventing the wheel by > writing applications that mimick MS Office, etc. > > I think the point that Nielsen is making (and that Kim already made) > is that there _are_ better methods out there, but developers aren't > taking advantage of them. > > "Open source software offers an excellent and underutilized avenue for > disseminating innovations in user interface." from Kim's Manifesto > > Why imitate Microsoft's wheel when you can create a better one? > > MPF > > > On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 16:49:39 -0400, Etienne Goyer > wrote: > > Matt Frye wrote: > > > - when they (open source developers) turn to the general tools they > > > tend to be in the line of "let's implement what we already know" so they > > > will take Microsoft Office and they will clone it. > > > > I don't really understand the stigma associated with that. Why reinvent > > the wheel when you can improve it ? > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Subscription and Archive: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ > > - > > For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Subscription and Archive: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ > - > For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: > "There is a lot of speculation and I guess there is going to continue to be a lot of speculation until the speculation ends." - George W. Bush on October 18, 1998 From cmacd at ACHILLES.net Wed Aug 25 13:39:58 2004 From: cmacd at ACHILLES.net (Charles MacDonald) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 09:39:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [OS:N:] Developing for developers and users In-Reply-To: <412BA9E3.6050206@linuxquebec.com> References: <95796EEB962111468091DAAB4ABE934E03F1A4B8@tinman3.rexhealth.com> <7f1eacdd040824120898797a6@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd040824134019b0ac36@mail.gmail.com> <412BA9E3.6050206@linuxquebec.com> Message-ID: <33177.209.151.7.148.1093441198.squirrel@webmail.achilles.net> Etienne Goyer said: > Matt Frye wrote: >> - when they (open source developers) turn to the general tools they >> tend to be in the line of "let's implement what we already know" so >> they will take Microsoft Office and they will clone it. > > I don't really understand the stigma associated with that. Why reinvent > the wheel when you can improve it ? Perhaps if one were to look at the problem, one could come up with a "Mag-lev transporter" instead of "Just a wheel" MS office is not the best tool for what it is used for. Many users use 10% of the features and get lost with the rest. I have seen many folks use it like a typewriter, with a lot of Hidden whitespace which of course breaks when the page is changed. A fresh approch might be better, but of course will require more retraining of MS users. -- Charles MacDonald Stittsville Ontario cmacd at achilles.net Just Beyond the Fringe http://home.achilles.net/~cmacd/ No Microsoft Products were used in sending this e-mail. From mattfrye at gmail.com Wed Aug 25 14:01:06 2004 From: mattfrye at gmail.com (Matt Frye) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 10:01:06 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] Developing for developers and users In-Reply-To: <1093441891.30909.25.camel@cspencer> References: <95796EEB962111468091DAAB4ABE934E03F1A4B8@tinman3.rexhealth.com> <7f1eacdd040824120898797a6@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd040824134019b0ac36@mail.gmail.com> <412BA9E3.6050206@linuxquebec.com> <7f1eacdd04082414386955eea4@mail.gmail.com> <1093441891.30909.25.camel@cspencer> Message-ID: <7f1eacdd040825070129840e38@mail.gmail.com> I think you are taking my Outlook example too far. Also consider that some of the comments were not my own; it should be clear which I quoted. In any case, you can say such things about OpenOffice, but if you carry that analysis back a bit farther and apply the comment to StarOffice or even further back, you still don't find that it came from Microsoft. If I am wrong and somewhere OO's ancestor is MS Office, please let me know, but I think billg would have something to say about it, SCO style. Point is, somewhere along the line, someone had to look at MS Office and decided to build something that was, for all intents and purposes, like it (but not it by invention). It's wonderful that OO (or it's predecessors) are feature rich and can export in all kinds of formats, but that doesn't make it fundamentally different from MS Office. Keeping on topic... "Feature rich" looks nice and impresses developers, but products written in this way (for developers or not) will eventually collapse under their own weight. Invent new things, but keep them lightweight and clean. Open source is a great opportunity for doing that. That's all I'm really saying. I agree with Charles M's comment about retraining, but perhaps the best way to do that is to manage the evolution of the application through the evolutionary programming process that you allude to, Chris. When that happens, the retraining is organic. I know it's not going to happen overnight, but that doesn't mean it's not revolutionary. Afterall, most revolutionary changes actually take 20 years or more. Matt Frye From etienne.goyer at linuxquebec.com Wed Aug 25 15:32:33 2004 From: etienne.goyer at linuxquebec.com (Etienne Goyer) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 11:32:33 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] Developing for developers and users In-Reply-To: <7f1eacdd04082414386955eea4@mail.gmail.com> References: <95796EEB962111468091DAAB4ABE934E03F1A4B8@tinman3.rexhealth.com> <7f1eacdd040824120898797a6@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd040824134019b0ac36@mail.gmail.com> <412BA9E3.6050206@linuxquebec.com> <7f1eacdd04082414386955eea4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <412CB111.4030504@linuxquebec.com> Matt Frye wrote: > I think the point that Nielsen is making (and that Kim already made) > is that there _are_ better methods out there, but developers aren't > taking advantage of them. And these methods are ... ? There is not much "innovation" per se in software, mostly incremental improvements. I'm perfectly ok with that, standing on the shoulders of giants and all that. My expectation toward OSS is not to have "innovative" softwares based on new paradigm, it is to have access to robust software that get the job done. People want/need a word processor. OpenOffice provide that. I can't blame OO.o for providing a rip-off that happen to be useful to people. Actually, it is the right thing to do. Innovation is not mutually exclusive with usefulness, but I'd rather have a useful non-innovative software than a (mostly-) useless innovative one. BTW, OSS *does* produce innovative stuff. I think we can agreee that one of the most important breakthrough in how we use software and computer, in the past decade or so, was the Web. AFAIK, the Mosaic web browser and NCSA httpd *where* OSS. The best implementation of a web browser and web server today *are* OSS. This is just one example. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 252 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From nbs at sonic.net Wed Aug 25 17:14:33 2004 From: nbs at sonic.net (Bill Kendrick) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 10:14:33 -0700 Subject: [OS:N:] Developing for developers and users In-Reply-To: <33177.209.151.7.148.1093441198.squirrel@webmail.achilles.net> References: <95796EEB962111468091DAAB4ABE934E03F1A4B8@tinman3.rexhealth.com> <7f1eacdd040824120898797a6@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd040824134019b0ac36@mail.gmail.com> <412BA9E3.6050206@linuxquebec.com> <33177.209.151.7.148.1093441198.squirrel@webmail.achilles.net> Message-ID: <20040825171433.GD6970@sonic.net> On Wed, Aug 25, 2004 at 09:39:58AM -0400, Charles MacDonald wrote: > MS office is not the best tool for what it is used for. I always joked that MS should take Excel, remove all of the math and charting features out of it, and sell it as a completely new product: "MS Table." 99% of the time I see an Excel spreadsheet, it's used simply as a kluge to cobble together data into columns and rows. Half the time, it's not even in a form that's easily sortable. *sigh* (e.g., a set of phone numbers, or a list of books, or...) -bill! bill at newbreedsoftware.com "Maybe it's just a parlor trick, like Fry" http://www.newbreedsoftware.com/ "Like Fry! Like Fry!" New Breed Software From nbs at sonic.net Wed Aug 25 17:18:46 2004 From: nbs at sonic.net (Bill Kendrick) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 10:18:46 -0700 Subject: [OS:N:] Developing for developers and users In-Reply-To: <7f1eacdd040825070129840e38@mail.gmail.com> References: <95796EEB962111468091DAAB4ABE934E03F1A4B8@tinman3.rexhealth.com> <7f1eacdd040824120898797a6@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd040824134019b0ac36@mail.gmail.com> <412BA9E3.6050206@linuxquebec.com> <7f1eacdd04082414386955eea4@mail.gmail.com> <1093441891.30909.25.camel@cspencer> <7f1eacdd040825070129840e38@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040825171846.GE6970@sonic.net> On Wed, Aug 25, 2004 at 10:01:06AM -0400, Matt Frye wrote: > Point is, somewhere along the line, someone had to look at MS Office > and decided to build something that was, for all intents and purposes, > like it (but not it by invention). It's wonderful that OO (or it's > predecessors) are feature rich and can export in all kinds of formats, > but that doesn't make it fundamentally different from MS Office. This thread is starting to imply that Microsoft actually invented the interface for MS Office. I don't know any precise history of MS Office, but the way Microsoft works is to take other people's work (either by buyout, or simply by cloning... I mean, shit... anyone remember Macintosh? ... and yeah, even that was just a ripoff of the earlier PARC stuff) In some sense, it's not /trivial/ to make a /better/ mousetrap. That's why so many mousetraps look the same. Compare word processors from various vendors and across various platforms for the past 20 years, and you can easily argue they were all ripping each other's designs off, as well. :^) -bill! bill at newbreedsoftware.com "Maybe it's just a parlor trick, like Fry" http://www.newbreedsoftware.com/ "Like Fry! Like Fry!" New Breed Software From mmaxwell at mail.ucf.edu Wed Aug 25 17:37:41 2004 From: mmaxwell at mail.ucf.edu (Marc Maxwell) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 13:37:41 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] Developing for developers and users Message-ID: I am not obsessed with blaming Microsoft and I don't care about office, since I don't use it except in the workplace sometimes. I also don't think that all open source software is fantastic -- only that which has truly been QA'd by some seriously high level developers. But what is even worse than making cruddy, proprietary software, is for a company to kill off innovation with cruddy, proprietary software patents. When a company like M$ wants to 'patent' something like 'click and drag' , or 'right click and look at properties' of software objects, then it prevents any TRUE innovators from coming along later and releasing quality software. M$ isn't in the business of making great software. They are in the business of selling closed-lid software to dumb people and organizations, then charging them more to fix it, secure it, upgrade it, license it, etc. I went through the entire Microsoft Certified Systems Monkey certification. Now I am pursuing Linux certs, where you really have to know something to pass. I never *did* know the differrence between 'Server' and 'Server in the Enterprise'. I think that's because there really isn't any differrence, not noticeably anyway....they probably just put differrent names on products and try to sell them as differrent. BTW I heard what M$ did when it wanted to take over Citrix. The guys that wrote Citrix were excited that M$ had expressed an interest. They said, 'oh, you want to buy our software?' M$ said, 'Buy'? Shortly thereafter, M$ released Terminal Server as part of the win2k package -- an exact duplicate of the Citrix product. All of the terms that you agree to when you click 'I agree' in the EULA, are *precisely* the practices that M$ engages in -- reverse engineering, etc. Whenever a company creates a good app, like pc anywhere or something like that -- soon thereafter, MS has incorporated it into its next OS. Thank God for open source software. Marc Maxwell Programmer-Analyst Certified Technical Trainer Scheduling Team SDES, Registrar's Office University of Central Florida Orlando, Florida 407.823.0588 >>> nbs at sonic.net 8/25/2004 1:18:46 PM >>> On Wed, Aug 25, 2004 at 10:01:06AM -0400, Matt Frye wrote: > Point is, somewhere along the line, someone had to look at MS Office > and decided to build something that was, for all intents and purposes, > like it (but not it by invention). It's wonderful that OO (or it's > predecessors) are feature rich and can export in all kinds of formats, > but that doesn't make it fundamentally different from MS Office. This thread is starting to imply that Microsoft actually invented the interface for MS Office. I don't know any precise history of MS Office, but the way Microsoft works is to take other people's work (either by buyout, or simply by cloning... I mean, shit... anyone remember Macintosh? ... and yeah, even that was just a ripoff of the earlier PARC stuff) In some sense, it's not /trivial/ to make a /better/ mousetrap. That's why so many mousetraps look the same. Compare word processors from various vendors and across various platforms for the past 20 years, and you can easily argue they were all ripping each other's designs off, as well. :^) -bill! bill at newbreedsoftware.com "Maybe it's just a parlor trick, like Fry" http://www.newbreedsoftware.com/ "Like Fry! Like Fry!" New Breed Software _______________________________________________ Subscription and Archive: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ - For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: From chris at forevergalleries.com Wed Aug 25 17:45:54 2004 From: chris at forevergalleries.com (Chris Spencer) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 12:45:54 -0500 Subject: [OS:N:] Developing for developers and users In-Reply-To: <412CB111.4030504@linuxquebec.com> References: <95796EEB962111468091DAAB4ABE934E03F1A4B8@tinman3.rexhealth.com> <7f1eacdd040824120898797a6@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd040824134019b0ac36@mail.gmail.com> <412BA9E3.6050206@linuxquebec.com> <7f1eacdd04082414386955eea4@mail.gmail.com> <412CB111.4030504@linuxquebec.com> Message-ID: <1093455953.32174.236.camel@cspencer> I love a good rant. On Wed, 2004-08-25 at 10:32, Etienne Goyer wrote: > My expectation toward OSS is not to have "innovative" softwares based on > new paradigm, it is to have access to robust software that get the job > done. People want/need a word processor. OpenOffice provide that. I > can't blame OO.o for providing a rip-off that happen to be useful to > people. Actually, it is the right thing to do. No, no, no. We aren't providing rip-offs. There is work being done on function-alikes such that there is a stable free base of software that can be worked from to provide the innovative new features required for tomorrows computing users. (and us) The people doing this work in our community are nothing less than heroes. Fighting the right fight for a free tomorrow. > Innovation is not mutually exclusive with usefulness, but I'd rather > have a useful non-innovative software than a (mostly-) useless > innovative one. I will take both. Because sooner or later the useless but innovative one will pass the non-innovative software and if I already have that non-innovative one to build on, it will happen sooner. > BTW, OSS *does* produce innovative stuff. I think we can agreee that > one of the most important breakthrough in how we use software and > computer, in the past decade or so, was the Web. AFAIK, the Mosaic web > browser and NCSA httpd *where* OSS. The best implementation of a web > browser and web server today *are* OSS. This is just one example. Innovative, yes. Revolutionary, no. The web browser and server are predated by gopher and gopher by BBS systems and BBS systems by posters and posters by town criers ... etc. Microsoft has it right when they admitted that they had a failure of imagination. With good reason too. Imagination is a function of many different perspectives seeing the same problem from a different viewpoint. Their size is not big enough. They can not compete. There loss is immanent. For Microsoft to win the battle they will have to doom the world to a life of idea slavery. Idea slavery is a crime against humanity and in the end it too will fail. If you want your freedom then you need to listen the words of Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis found in my signature. Choose your masters carefully. -Chris "Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the Government's purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding." - Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis, Olmstead v. U.S. (1928) From jhogan at redhat.com Wed Aug 25 17:32:48 2004 From: jhogan at redhat.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 13:32:48 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] Developing for developers and users In-Reply-To: <20040825171846.GE6970@sonic.net> References: <95796EEB962111468091DAAB4ABE934E03F1A4B8@tinman3.rexhealth.com> <7f1eacdd040824120898797a6@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd040824134019b0ac36@mail.gmail.com> <412BA9E3.6050206@linuxquebec.com> <7f1eacdd04082414386955eea4@mail.gmail.com> <1093441891.30909.25.camel@cspencer> <7f1eacdd040825070129840e38@mail.gmail.com> <20040825171846.GE6970@sonic.net> Message-ID: <1093455168.2627.111.camel@dhcp63-232.rdu.redhat.com> > This thread is starting to imply that Microsoft actually invented the > interface for MS Office. I don't know any precise history of MS Office, > but the way Microsoft works is to take other people's work (either by buyout, > or simply by cloning... I mean, shit... anyone remember Macintosh? ... > and yeah, even that was just a ripoff of the earlier PARC stuff) > MS crafted word purely as an attack on WordPerfect. Focusing on the deficiencies or customer requests. WP had already proven itself as the processor to use on DOS, and more so on the GUI. Excel was not even Excel at the time, and nothing was bundled. http://blogs.msdn.com/chris_pratley/archive/2004/04/27/120944.aspx http://blogs.msdn.com/chris_pratley/archive/2004/04/28/122004.aspx So in essence, MS was smart in starting where the world already was, and while they were focusing on the customer they won. As has been their track record, at the point of dominance, the customer requests no longer mattered and they started the "arms race" of bundling and feature shock. Brilliant marketing convinced the world they were missing the gravy train on biscuit wheels and so it went, and so it goes now. MS strength in the early days was much that of Japan in its foray into the automotive and electronics industry. "Do that. And do it better, faster and/or cheaper". Note the distinction between invention and innovation. Innovation is monetizing or tactically using an invention in a new way, or to solve a different problem than it was initially invented for. As far as I can see in their history, invention is not their bag. Bought DOS, stole the GUI, copied the office suite, stole the browser market, eventually strong armed AOL into playing ball, continue to beat down Real and other alternative media players, etc. --jeremy From jay at scherrer.com Wed Aug 25 20:14:20 2004 From: jay at scherrer.com (Jay Scherrer) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 13:14:20 -0700 Subject: [OS:N:] Developing for developers and users In-Reply-To: <20040825171846.GE6970@sonic.net> References: <95796EEB962111468091DAAB4ABE934E03F1A4B8@tinman3.rexhealth.com> <7f1eacdd040825070129840e38@mail.gmail.com> <20040825171846.GE6970@sonic.net> Message-ID: <200408251314.22258.jay@scherrer.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Actually, developers were shooting common look and feel usage, when it comes to office applications. This way they reduce 1. Time To Market and 2. Shorter learning curve for new customers. One way that they accomplised this was with standardized API's The old "Why reinvent the wheel just make it a porche". Jay On Wednesday 25 August 2004 10:18 am, Bill Kendrick wrote: > On Wed, Aug 25, 2004 at 10:01:06AM -0400, Matt Frye wrote: > > Point is, somewhere along the line, someone had to look at MS Office > > and decided to build something that was, for all intents and purposes, > > like it (but not it by invention). It's wonderful that OO (or it's > > predecessors) are feature rich and can export in all kinds of formats, > > but that doesn't make it fundamentally different from MS Office. > > This thread is starting to imply that Microsoft actually invented the > interface for MS Office. I don't know any precise history of MS Office, > but the way Microsoft works is to take other people's work (either by > buyout, or simply by cloning... I mean, shit... anyone remember Macintosh? > ... and yeah, even that was just a ripoff of the earlier PARC stuff) > > In some sense, it's not /trivial/ to make a /better/ mousetrap. That's why > so many mousetraps look the same. Compare word processors from various > vendors and across various platforms for the past 20 years, and you can > easily argue they were all ripping each other's designs off, as well. :^) > > -bill! > bill at newbreedsoftware.com "Maybe it's just a parlor trick, like > Fry" http://www.newbreedsoftware.com/ "Like Fry! Like Fry!" New > Breed Software > > > _______________________________________________ > Subscription and Archive: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ - > For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBLPMc7+UFWg+1k3YRAtPrAJ9MdXHLz1hXu3LqVW5Fxz1JAueIUQCfZReE /KXM8KSD1vud7Q9nepOlXwg= =RDI+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From pdfernhout at kurtz-fernhout.com Thu Aug 26 01:32:26 2004 From: pdfernhout at kurtz-fernhout.com (Paul D. Fernhout) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 21:32:26 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] Developing for developers and users In-Reply-To: <20040825171846.GE6970@sonic.net> References: <95796EEB962111468091DAAB4ABE934E03F1A4B8@tinman3.rexhealth.com> <7f1eacdd040824120898797a6@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd040824134019b0ac36@mail.gmail.com> <412BA9E3.6050206@linuxquebec.com> <7f1eacdd04082414386955eea4@mail.gmail.com> <1093441891.30909.25.camel@cspencer> <7f1eacdd040825070129840e38@mail.gmail.com> <20040825171846.GE6970@sonic.net> Message-ID: <412D3DAA.5040705@kurtz-fernhout.com> Bill Kendrick wrote: > I mean, shit... anyone remember Macintosh? ... > and yeah, even that was just a ripoff of the earlier PARC stuff) Actually there was some licensing deal between Apple and Xerox PARC so it wasn't exactly a ripoff in the financial sense, but clearly many of the ideas for the Macintosh were taken from Alan Kay's (and other's) innovative Smalltalk system. There is a quote somewhere by Steven Jobs (see for example) http://www.smalltalk.org/alankay.html http://americanhistory.si.edu/csr/comphist/sj1.html saying he was so bowled over by the GUI during his visit to PARC he immediately wanted to get back to Apple and start working on that that, but he wished in retrospect he had stayed longer to get the idea of Smalltalk and object-oriented programming (as well as networked computers). If you look at Steve Jobs' subsequent effort, NeXT, you will see many more of the Smalltalk ideas and network ideas (in Objective-C and NeXTStep type ideas). A proprietary Smalltalk system called "The Analyst" built for the intelligence community then leveraged Smalltalk to an incredible degree to form an integrated information handling suite far beyond Office. http://wiki.cs.uiuc.edu/VisualWorks/The+Analyst http://www.mojowire.com/TravelsWithSmalltalk/DaveThomas-TravelsWithSmalltalk.htm "Why would Xerox develop an incredible spreadsheet that could display images, conjugate Russian verbs and why did that happen in a strange group called XSIS located in Los Angeles and Washington? Apparently they had an important customer with a lot of complex information to analyze. How did Angela Coppola know that 1000 people would show up for OOPSLA'86 when the PC committee predicted 100-200? What sort of technology could the National Security Administration use to print Chinese leaflets circa 1978? The Xerox Analyst served the CIA as a analytic tool for many years. Even 13 years later it still offers tools more powerful than MSOffice. The Analyst is still alive and well and forms a key component in TI ControlWorks Wafer Fab Automation System." So anyway, even more than a decade ago, there were much better things than Microsoft Office. And Engelbart's (and other's) work on Augment (predating Smalltalk in a sense) was also a move in that direction of integrated information management tools (embodying coding tools together with text and hypertext and collaboration tools), eventually moving to being on top of Smalltalk at some point. [I have my own issues with the Engelbart approach -- including particularly a need to rethink what is meant by "document" in an age of tiny modules, but in general I like what Engelbart attempts.] It's been said any sufficiently complex C program reimplements half-of Common Lisp badly, and I think once could also say any sufficiently complex GUI application in C/C++ reimplements half of Smalltalk badly (garbage collection, dependencies, MVC, bitblt, dynamic binding of plugins, inspectors, browsers, modifying running code, developing while debugging, etc.). As a software developer, the problem I have contributing to most any mainstream project like Mozilla or OpenOffice (except maybe ones in certain Smalltalks, or perhaps Python) is this notion that so much of the code base is going to be a specific implementation of things that a good Smalltalk (or Common Lisp, etc.) generalizes. [BTW, Java fails at some of this too, so it isn't the answer.] Take for example garbage collection; almost all C (or C++) GUI type programs generates lots of temporary objects, and they carefully manage allocation and deallocation with lots of code (or now some link in conservative garbage collectors for freeing malloced blocks). Compare this with, say, the advanced garbage collection schemes in something like VisualWorks Smalltalk http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/CincomSmalltalkWiki/VisualWorks+7+White+Paper (a modern Smalltalk architecture, though a proprietary implementation, which tenures objects as they age, has separate spaces for objects of different characteristics, supports weak references, and some other aspects, some user-tailorable) http://wiki.cs.uiuc.edu/VisualWorks/ObjectMemory+Size+Tuning you end up finding out often enough that a complex GUI type C program spends more time on garbage collection in that sense and does a worse job of it than Smalltalk, which has a highly optimized general system. Python is currently struggling with some of this as it has a simple-minded reference counting approach that bogs it down in speed and circularity problems and programming burden for extension writers. While I have adopted GNU/Linux for my main system, it was only after many years of avoidance because of the legacy UNIX architecture (including the C focus) and hoping for something better to emerge as a standard. Even now, I face an installed GNU/Linux system of literally gigabytes of software where most of that code is simply reimplementing Smalltalk VM like ideas and duplicating code etc (poorly). By comparison, a Forth system could do timesharing, compiling, scheduling, and editing in about 16K (not MB!) bytes of RAM. http://www.colorforth.com/HOPL.html And Squeak Smalltalk can run on bare metal and provide a complete GUI development system in about a megabyte or so. Granted, we want full featured applications, but overall, do we really need gigabytes of compiled code to do not much more in core functionality than these systems? Now this bloat and redundancy isn't specific to GNU/Linux; for a long time now, to save on storage space and memory use, Microsoft has many proprietary hidden interpreters embedded into Windows applications, including one which uses bytecode like instructions unpacked into real code at the heart of Microsoft Office applications. For what it is worth, even Bill Gates was big on Smalltalk a long time ago: http://www.danielsen.com/jokes/BillGatesquotes.txt From the back of an old Digitalk Smalltalk/V PM manual, 1990: "This is the right way to develop applications for OS/2 PM. OS/2 PM is a tremendously rich environment, which makes it inherently complex. Smalltalk/V PM removes that complexity and lets you concentrate on writing great programs. Smalltalk/V PM is the kind of tool that will make OS/2 the successor to MS/DOS". Just one more example of the power of such thinking -- Dan Ingalls, a key original Smalltalk developer who later worked on Squeak Smalltalk, wrote the following: http://minnow.cc.gatech.edu/squeak/3084 "Mini.image, on the servers, is not much over 500k and includes a full development environment. Since it can reconstruct and browse over 800k of source code by decompilation, we used to boast that it was like source code compression with a full-featured development environment thrown in for free." Now when you are used to that kind of system, it's hard to look at systems that take 30MB just to do some simple dedicated application. Anyway, this isn't an argument everything should be written in Smalltalk or GNU/Linux should be ditched in factor of saw Squeak Smalltalk on the bare metal. But it is to say something similar to one of Kim's points, only in the field of core software (not hypertext functionality), that many wheels are getting reinvented badly in the community -- I might add perhaps as part of a learning process. Now that may just be the nature of open source / free software, but one can hope that as this culture grows and becomes somewhat more introspective and educated (through the power of the internet) these issues will slowly resolve themselves, and we will see much more powerful cores of VMs and libraries on which to build special purpose applications. Python is one step in that direction (having some advantages over typical Smalltalks, plus some disadvantages). But it does lead to a problem for more experienced developers, when they look at something like the C/C++ (or Java etc.) codebase for Mozilla or OpenOffice and say, gee, why maintain all that poorly done Smalltalk reimplementations rather than start over (and no offense intended, I use Mozilla every day and I like it, and OpenOffice rocks too). And anyone starting over would be foolish not to look at how those systems worked and all the application specific problems they have solved. And there remains the tension of how much of legacy support to build into a new system, as it is in that legacy support (especially if done broadly) that much complexity and bloat lies. I think there is a general feeling we are not there yet for a good underlying system architecture; the Gnome convolutions, the continued work on language and library design, and so on all points to a hope for something better underlying this all. I feel one reason end-user experience is so poor is that the tools the end-user applications are built on under GNU/Linux are so poor (C/C++, files, etc.; as good as they are in many ways at what they think is important). I feel that situation is improving with various desktops and an increase in library functionality in a small way, but it nowhere near approaches the promise of something like, say, Squeak Smalltalk (this is not to say Squeak delivers on such promises either, it just shows them in the hands of someone like Alan Kay if you watch his live demo). So in any case, I would not agree withthe spirit of the point that office type applications are taking from each other (even if that is true); I think it more like they are all harking back to the 1960s and 1970s, and we have not yet reached the potential of Engelbart's Augment or Kay's Smalltalk in a free and open way. We can still do OK with what we have, but if we could realize the promise of Augment and Smalltalk, we could finally move beyond that (although I would add the web is something different and wonderful in its own right in terms of sheer volume of content accessible via a search engine like Google). Yes, I know Ocaml/Haskell/etc. are cool, and a lot of hard work goes into tracking standards and deviations like with HTML versions, reverse engineering .Doc version formats, etc. etc.; this isn't meant to put down future great ideas in the making or lots of hard work needed to make today's approaches go, just to say something about the unrealized potential of free computing even with 1960s/1970s ideals... --Paul Fernhout From teh.apex at gmail.com Thu Aug 26 06:44:52 2004 From: teh.apex at gmail.com (Derek Robinson) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 02:44:52 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] (no subject) Message-ID: <29ab3b4a04082523447098043d@mail.gmail.com> teh.apex at gmail.com From cmacd at achilles.net Thu Aug 26 14:09:27 2004 From: cmacd at achilles.net (Charles MacDonald) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 10:09:27 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] Developing for developers and users Message-ID: <412DEF17.6050500@achilles.net> Bill Kendrick said: > On Wed, Aug 25, 2004 at 09:39:58AM -0400, Charles MacDonald wrote: >> MS office is not the best tool for what it is used for. > > I always joked that MS should take Excel, remove all of the math and > charting features out of it, and sell it as a completely new product: > "MS Table." 99% of the time I see an Excel spreadsheet, it's used > simply as a kludge to cobble together data into columns and rows. Half > the time, it's not even in a form that's easily sortable. *sigh* Not wanting to pick on a monopoly, but I recall an interesting conversation with a developer who was doing spreadsheet stuff at OLS 2003. He said he was tempted to make his product have TWO versions of some of the math stuff. The academically Correct version and a MS compatibility mode with the bugs he had observed in the behavior of Excel. I agree that using Excel as a mini-db application is problematic. Even my wife has rejected my old database of my record albums, and has listed our CD's in Excel, with one title of songs she likes per column and one CD per row. - with the Row numbers corresponding to the position of the CD in the Pioneer 300 Cd player. I am not suggesting that developers should go out on a limb and create artificial interfaces out of the blue, just saying that the MS interfaces although often designed with a good deal of human factors research are not always the best for user needs. Perhaps OSS needs to start thinking about user forums where interface issues get looked at with real non-technical users. perhaps a spiffy data-management program is more important than a spreadsheet? (in fairness, the second spreadsheet to reach popular sales -Lotus 123- was advertised as a database management tool. with only 64K to play with, Visi-Calc on the Apple ][ really did not have the space to ponder such an application.) -- Charles MacDonald Stittsville Ontario cmacd at achilles.net Just Beyond the Fringe http://home.achilles.net/~cmacd/ No Microsoft Products were used in sending this e-mail. From mattfrye at gmail.com Thu Aug 26 14:56:02 2004 From: mattfrye at gmail.com (Matt Frye) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 10:56:02 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] Developing for developers and users In-Reply-To: <412DEF17.6050500@achilles.net> References: <412DEF17.6050500@achilles.net> Message-ID: <7f1eacdd040826075672fe42c4@mail.gmail.com> > Perhaps OSS needs to start thinking about user forums where interface > issues get looked at with real non-technical users. This is precisely the point I was attempting to make when this thread began. I can't say it much better than this comment on Nielsen's thoughts from Slashdot, rated "Insightful." >Don't generalize "usability" -- it's multipart... > >To simply say "Don't expect usability from a programmer" may sound cool, but it's incorrect. >It's incorrect because usability is a multipart issue, comprising a large body of >domain-independent elements that underpin access to one or more domain-specific object >sets and relationships. Ref: http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=119000&cid=10048603 As always, I encourage you to read the entire reference. Anyway, the onus is on software companies to widen the research and experience of everyone in the development cycle. Sure, it takes more money, etc, and I'm not even including things like outsourcing development overseas, although that has an obvious effect, but I see it as part of the development to usability equation. Matt Frye From jay at scherrer.com Thu Aug 26 16:01:11 2004 From: jay at scherrer.com (Jay Scherrer) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 09:01:11 -0700 Subject: [OS:N:] Developing for developers and users In-Reply-To: <412DEF17.6050500@achilles.net> References: <412DEF17.6050500@achilles.net> Message-ID: <200408260901.21609.jay@scherrer.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 List, What iss all this talk about? - From what I understand, is excel is only a csv file (comma seperated version text file). The only thing that Ms's excel does is add eye candy. That is where Microsoft has a niche, as in presentation of data and or desktop. his what we have to understand. Microsoft is really good at taking raw data and making it easier to comprehend via presentation. It wasn't until Unix started to perfect the X windowing driver that we started to beable to compete visually with Microsoft. But that's not to say that Linux/Unix didn't have the backend (processing power) for applications. I use Perl all the time to create my csv text files and load them into OpenOffice. At my last interview I was asked if could use excel. In which I redily replied "Oh my yes, and I can even convert excel files into a more useable data format such as MySQL". Jay On Thursday 26 August 2004 07:09 am, Charles MacDonald wrote: > Bill Kendrick said: > > On Wed, Aug 25, 2004 at 09:39:58AM -0400, Charles MacDonald wrote: > >> MS office is not the best tool for what it is used for. > > > > I always joked that MS should take Excel, remove all of the math and > > charting features out of it, and sell it as a completely new product: > > "MS Table." 99% of the time I see an Excel spreadsheet, it's used > > simply as a kludge to cobble together data into columns and rows. Half > > the time, it's not even in a form that's easily sortable. *sigh* > > Not wanting to pick on a monopoly, but I recall an interesting > conversation with a developer who was doing spreadsheet stuff at OLS > 2003. He said he was tempted to make his product have TWO versions of > some of the math stuff. The academically Correct version and a MS > compatibility mode with the bugs he had observed in the behavior of Excel. > > I agree that using Excel as a mini-db application is problematic. Even > my wife has rejected my old database of my record albums, and has listed > our CD's in Excel, with one title of songs she likes per column and one > CD per row. - with the Row numbers corresponding to the position of the > CD in the Pioneer 300 Cd player. > > I am not suggesting that developers should go out on a limb and create > artificial interfaces out of the blue, just saying that the MS > interfaces although often designed with a good deal of human factors > research are not always the best for user needs. > > Perhaps OSS needs to start thinking about user forums where interface > issues get looked at with real non-technical users. perhaps a spiffy > data-management program is more important than a spreadsheet? > > (in fairness, the second spreadsheet to reach popular sales -Lotus 123- > was advertised as a database management tool. with only 64K to play > with, Visi-Calc on the Apple ][ really did not have the space to ponder > such an application.) > > -- > Charles MacDonald Stittsville Ontario > cmacd at achilles.net Just Beyond the Fringe > http://home.achilles.net/~cmacd/ > No Microsoft Products were used in sending this e-mail. > > > _______________________________________________ > Subscription and Archive: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ - > For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBLglP7+UFWg+1k3YRAirdAJ9yaArQplKJdJLBLLDlHw/B30rWvwCfSCam OOvoEf/KaiOMnphLald5XOI= =IwWp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From m0bvu at yahoo.co.uk Wed Sep 8 11:48:30 2004 From: m0bvu at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Steve=20Noble-King?=) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 12:48:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: [OS:N:] Hello Message-ID: <20040908114830.11622.qmail@web25003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Hi All, ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From timothylaws at netscape.net Wed Sep 8 14:28:55 2004 From: timothylaws at netscape.net (timothylaws at netscape.net) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 10:28:55 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] Hello Message-ID: <662CA43B.0A30CC40.52EEA091@netscape.net> And a good morning to you sir. Steve Noble-King wrote: >Hi All, > > > > > > > >___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > >_______________________________________________ >Subscription and Archive: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ >- >For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: > > > __________________________________________________________________ Switch to Netscape Internet Service. As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register Netscape. Just the Net You Need. New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups. Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp From ljd65536 at comcast.net Thu Sep 9 00:58:19 2004 From: ljd65536 at comcast.net (Larry D) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 20:58:19 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] GIMP vs. Adobe Photoshop Message-ID: <200409082058.20062.ljd65536@comcast.net> My daughter has started taking digital photography in high school this year. But apparently the digital photography class is at the bottom of the food chain as far as computers are concerned. They have an ancient version of Adobe photoshop running on 1996 vintage computers. According to my daughter, the students find this depressing as many of them have better stuff on their home computers. I occasionally use the GIMP on my Linux machine but I have never used any version of Photoshop. Can any one tell me how the latest GIMP compares to photoshop? Will it run on 300MHz machines? I will be talking to the teacher in a few weeks at open house. Perhaps I can convince her that this is a better alternative than spending scarce resources on new versions of Photoshop. Larry -- -------------------> 42 <----------------------- From nbs at sonic.net Thu Sep 9 01:24:26 2004 From: nbs at sonic.net (Bill Kendrick) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 18:24:26 -0700 Subject: [OS:N:] GIMP vs. Adobe Photoshop In-Reply-To: <200409082058.20062.ljd65536@comcast.net> References: <200409082058.20062.ljd65536@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20040909012426.GC6908@sonic.net> On Wed, Sep 08, 2004 at 08:58:19PM -0400, Larry D wrote: > I occasionally use the GIMP on my Linux machine but I have never used any > version of Photoshop. Can any one tell me how the latest GIMP compares to > photoshop? Will it run on 300MHz machines? I will be talking to the teacher > in a few weeks at open house. Perhaps I can convince her that this is a > better alternative than spending scarce resources on new versions of > Photoshop. Not having hundreds of dollars to spend on Photoshop, I can't compare the two directly. However, Gimp is extremely powerful and flexible. I would HIGHLY recommend it, especially for the budget-conscious!!! I just recently upgraded from Gimp 1.2.5 to Gimp 2.0.x on my Linux box at home, and so far I've been quite impressed with the UI changes. (The ability to group, reorganize, attach and detach various dialogs. It looks like you can load and save your configuration, as well, which means if you have one preference for doing photo editing, and another for creating logos, you can easily switch between interface layouts! Tres cool!) Good luck! -bill! From karl at dadoka.h.ni.schule.de Thu Sep 9 05:50:22 2004 From: karl at dadoka.h.ni.schule.de (Karl Sarnow) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 07:50:22 +0200 Subject: [OS:N:] GIMP vs. Adobe Photoshop In-Reply-To: <200409082058.20062.ljd65536@comcast.net> References: <200409082058.20062.ljd65536@comcast.net> Message-ID: <413FEF1E.5030404@dadoka.h.ni.schule.de> Larry D wrote: > My daughter has started taking digital photography in high school this year. > But apparently the digital photography class is at the bottom of the food > chain as far as computers are concerned. They have an ancient version of > Adobe photoshop running on 1996 vintage computers. According to my daughter, > the students find this depressing as many of them have better stuff on their > home computers. > > I occasionally use the GIMP on my Linux machine but I have never used any > version of Photoshop. Can any one tell me how the latest GIMP compares to > photoshop? Will it run on 300MHz machines? I will be talking to the teacher > in a few weeks at open house. Perhaps I can convince her that this is a > better alternative than spending scarce resources on new versions of > Photoshop. > > Larry > > Larry, the latest versiojn of GIMP is like all newer software fatter than the older ones. You will have problems running later KDE versions running on old machines. I have an old 400MHz AMD machine with 128MByte RAM and it runs SuSE 9.2 _ssllooowww_. As graphics operations are always CPU demanding, photo manipulation on these machines is no fun. This holds for Photoshop as well as GIMP. Anyway I propose your students think of moving to GIMP, saving money for licenses and invest that in new hardware, which is necessary anyway. Karl -- Dr. Karl Sarnow Teacher at Gymnasium Isernhagen German national co-ordinator of the European Schools Project e-Mail: karl at dadoka.h.ni.schule.de URL: http://www.shuttle.schule.de/h/dadoka From mrkkhattak at yahoo.com Thu Sep 9 08:33:54 2004 From: mrkkhattak at yahoo.com (Meraj Rasool Khattak) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 01:33:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [OS:N:] GIMP vs. Adobe Photoshop In-Reply-To: <413FEF1E.5030404@dadoka.h.ni.schule.de> Message-ID: <20040909083354.45616.qmail@web40413.mail.yahoo.com> -- Karl Sarnow wrote: > Larry D wrote: > > My daughter has started taking digital photography > in high school this year. > > But apparently the digital photography class is at > the bottom of the food > > chain as far as computers are concerned. They have > an ancient version of > > Adobe photoshop running on 1996 vintage computers. > According to my daughter, > > the students find this depressing as many of them > have better stuff on their > > home computers. > > > > I occasionally use the GIMP on my Linux machine > but I have never used any > > version of Photoshop. Can any one tell me how the > latest GIMP compares to > > photoshop? Will it run on 300MHz machines? I will > be talking to the teacher > > in a few weeks at open house. Perhaps I can > convince her that this is a > > better alternative than spending scarce resources > on new versions of > > Photoshop. > > > > Larry > > I have been using Adobe Photoshop from the last 4+ years, I found it very useful & easy to use. I started using GIMP only a year or so ago. I can not compare it completely with Photoshop, but from the day I switched to Linux I have to use GIMP, I am able to do almost eveything I was previously doing with Adobe Photoshop. So it means if anyone starts using GIMP (instead of Photoshop) they will be able to achieve the same result as one could with Photoshop. By doing so any person or institute will obviously save hundred of $$ in licenses. After saving that money, that could be used in improving hardware as Karl said. Regards, -Meraj > > > > Larry, > the latest versiojn of GIMP is like all newer > software fatter than the > older ones. You will have problems running later KDE > versions running on > old machines. I have an old 400MHz AMD machine with > 128MByte RAM and it > runs SuSE 9.2 _ssllooowww_. As graphics operations > are always CPU > demanding, photo manipulation on these machines is > no fun. This holds > for Photoshop as well as GIMP. > > Anyway I propose your students think of moving to > GIMP, saving money for > licenses and invest that in new hardware, which is > necessary anyway. > > Karl ===== http://www.naqoosh.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From gary.frederick at jsoft.com Thu Sep 9 11:43:03 2004 From: gary.frederick at jsoft.com (Gary Frederick) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 06:43:03 -0500 Subject: [OS:N:] GIMP vs. Adobe Photoshop In-Reply-To: <413FEF1E.5030404@dadoka.h.ni.schule.de> References: <200409082058.20062.ljd65536@comcast.net> <413FEF1E.5030404@dadoka.h.ni.schule.de> Message-ID: <414041C7.70306@jsoft.com> Howdy, and you should consider getting GIMP for Windows and seeing if it runs on the machines in the class. and bring KNOPPIX and see if that runs. If it does, explain it will be SSLLOOWW because it is running in memory. That tests if the machines will load k12ltsp without problems and shows GIMP. Gary Karl Sarnow wrote: > Larry D wrote: > >> My daughter has started taking digital photography in high school this >> year. But apparently the digital photography class is at the bottom of >> the food chain as far as computers are concerned. They have an ancient >> version of Adobe photoshop running on 1996 vintage computers. >> According to my daughter, the students find this depressing as many of >> them have better stuff on their home computers. >> >> I occasionally use the GIMP on my Linux machine but I have never used >> any version of Photoshop. Can any one tell me how the latest GIMP >> compares to photoshop? Will it run on 300MHz machines? I will be >> talking to the teacher in a few weeks at open house. Perhaps I can >> convince her that this is a better alternative than spending scarce >> resources on new versions of Photoshop. >> >> Larry >> >> > > Larry, > the latest versiojn of GIMP is like all newer software fatter than > the older ones. You will have problems running later KDE versions > running on old machines. I have an old 400MHz AMD machine with 128MByte > RAM and it runs SuSE 9.2 _ssllooowww_. As graphics operations are always > CPU demanding, photo manipulation on these machines is no fun. This > holds for Photoshop as well as GIMP. > > Anyway I propose your students think of moving to GIMP, saving money for > licenses and invest that in new hardware, which is necessary anyway. > > Karl > > From mmaxwell at mail.ucf.edu Thu Sep 9 13:26:43 2004 From: mmaxwell at mail.ucf.edu (Marc Maxwell) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 09:26:43 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] GIMP vs. Adobe Photoshop Message-ID: GIMP is amazing. I am not personally very skilled in it, but I have read some amazing things in Linux Journal and other magazines. Photoshop, to me, is very flat and static compared to GIMP. When I was in Ca there was even a GIMP 'movie users LUG' or something like that for people in the movie industry. YOu hear about it being used for major movie edits and stuff like that, which is pretty far out of the basic user level, but it's nice to know it has such capabilities. In my opinion GIMP will do everything that photoshop will do, and GIMP will also do a lot that photoshop will not do. As with other open source tools, of course, there's a learning curve, but that is expected with any worthwhile application. Maybe the kids can delve into the app and it will (hopefully) help them to not focus on the old machines. Marc Maxwell Programmer-Analyst Certified Technical Trainer Scheduling Team SDES, Registrar's Office University of Central Florida Orlando, Florida 407.823.0588 >>> gary.frederick at jsoft.com 9/9/2004 7:43:03 AM >>> Howdy, and you should consider getting GIMP for Windows and seeing if it runs on the machines in the class. and bring KNOPPIX and see if that runs. If it does, explain it will be SSLLOOWW because it is running in memory. That tests if the machines will load k12ltsp without problems and shows GIMP. Gary Karl Sarnow wrote: > Larry D wrote: > >> My daughter has started taking digital photography in high school this >> year. But apparently the digital photography class is at the bottom of >> the food chain as far as computers are concerned. They have an ancient >> version of Adobe photoshop running on 1996 vintage computers. >> According to my daughter, the students find this depressing as many of >> them have better stuff on their home computers. >> >> I occasionally use the GIMP on my Linux machine but I have never used >> any version of Photoshop. Can any one tell me how the latest GIMP >> compares to photoshop? Will it run on 300MHz machines? I will be >> talking to the teacher in a few weeks at open house. Perhaps I can >> convince her that this is a better alternative than spending scarce >> resources on new versions of Photoshop. >> >> Larry >> >> > > Larry, > the latest versiojn of GIMP is like all newer software fatter than > the older ones. You will have problems running later KDE versions > running on old machines. I have an old 400MHz AMD machine with 128MByte > RAM and it runs SuSE 9.2 _ssllooowww_. As graphics operations are always > CPU demanding, photo manipulation on these machines is no fun. This > holds for Photoshop as well as GIMP. > > Anyway I propose your students think of moving to GIMP, saving money for > licenses and invest that in new hardware, which is necessary anyway. > > Karl > > _______________________________________________ Subscription and Archive: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ - For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: From chris at forevergalleries.com Thu Sep 9 14:22:27 2004 From: chris at forevergalleries.com (Chris Spencer) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 09:22:27 -0500 Subject: [OS:N:] GIMP vs. Adobe Photoshop In-Reply-To: <200409082058.20062.ljd65536@comcast.net> References: <200409082058.20062.ljd65536@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1094739746.12611.205.camel@cspencer> I love the GIMP. I think it does a great job and will take care of almost everything that they need. However, you will need to be prepared to address several concerns that the teacher will have. Be prepared to counter the following objections: For starters there is the "image" of teaching the "industry standard". Photoshop is a well established product and is used by most graphics professionals. The GIMP is an unknown quantity. It is likely that you will be introducing it for the first time to the instructor and if not then you may need to overcome a bias against it. To overcome that objection you will need to give examples where the GIMP is being used by professionals and probably have a working copy handy (IE: Knoppix) so you can do a live demo. Then after you have established that the GIMP is a real and viable alternative used by professionals and is easy enough to use then you can address issues related to teaching materials and training. The teacher will almost certainly continue to have reservations about using a product if they already have textbooks that teach Photoshop and even if they don't learning the product will cause problems because they are inherently against change! In fact the longer they have been teaching something the more stupid they become about change. To overcome this hurdle is going to take some luck and probably a willingness to teach the teacher. Alternately there may be text books available for the GIMP, but, then you would have to overcome other budget issues. After that you may have the door open with the teacher but you with the instructor will then need to convince the administrators. If the instructor is unwilling to go to them with it then that will probably kill it too. All in all there are significant problems pushing through change for the better in public institutions of every size. It's much easier for the employees to just grumble and go with the flow. Honestly, Open Office is an easier sell and still schools are very (very) slow to adopt it. It's just unbelievable the strength of product lock-in through the ever popular "industry standard". A complete waste of tax dollars in my not so humble opinion. In any case presenting it along the lines of "you should use the GIMP and save on licensing costs" is a good idea. Even if it fails the teacher is forced to see that there are alternatives. I can't emphasize enough how much resistance there is to change though. Here we are with products that could save billions upon billions of dollars (trillions?) every year and people steadfastly refuse. Yes, we are making headway, but it seems to be like taking a sailboat into the wind! The day will come though when the wind shifts and all these commercial products will have to face the fury the free and open jet stream. Of this we can be certain. Fight the fight. -Chris On Wed, 2004-09-08 at 19:58, Larry D wrote: > My daughter has started taking digital photography in high school this year. > But apparently the digital photography class is at the bottom of the food > chain as far as computers are concerned. They have an ancient version of > Adobe photoshop running on 1996 vintage computers. According to my daughter, > the students find this depressing as many of them have better stuff on their > home computers. > > I occasionally use the GIMP on my Linux machine but I have never used any > version of Photoshop. Can any one tell me how the latest GIMP compares to > photoshop? Will it run on 300MHz machines? I will be talking to the teacher > in a few weeks at open house. Perhaps I can convince her that this is a > better alternative than spending scarce resources on new versions of > Photoshop. > > Larry "Why, of course, the people don't want war... Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders... All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." - Nazi Hermann Goering, at the Nuremberg war-crimes tribunal From chris at forevergalleries.com Thu Sep 9 14:27:50 2004 From: chris at forevergalleries.com (Chris Spencer) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 09:27:50 -0500 Subject: [OS:N:] GIMP vs. Adobe Photoshop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1094740069.12611.212.camel@cspencer> There once was a product known as the GIMP. Then someone said "wouldn't it be cool if we could touch up video" and others said "Yes, it would be cool" and it was done. Film Gimp was born. Then someone said "but we are more than GIMP we are CinePaint" and others mindlessly chimed in "Yes, master" and it was so. http://cinepaint.sourceforge.net/ CinePaint is EXTREMELY popular in the movie business. So is Linux for that matter. -Chris On Thu, 2004-09-09 at 08:26, Marc Maxwell wrote: > GIMP is amazing. I am not personally very skilled in it, but I have > read some amazing things in Linux Journal and other magazines. > Photoshop, to me, is very flat and static compared to GIMP. When I was > in Ca there was even a GIMP 'movie users LUG' or something like that for > people in the movie industry. YOu hear about it being used for major > movie edits and stuff like that, which is pretty far out of the basic > user level, but it's nice to know it has such capabilities. > > In my opinion GIMP will do everything that photoshop will do, and GIMP > will also do a lot that photoshop will not do. As with other open source > tools, of course, there's a learning curve, but that is expected with > any worthwhile application. Maybe the kids can delve into the app and > it will (hopefully) help them to not focus on the old machines. > > > > > > > > > Marc Maxwell > Programmer-Analyst > Certified Technical Trainer > Scheduling Team > SDES, Registrar's Office > University of Central Florida > Orlando, Florida > 407.823.0588 > > >>> gary.frederick at jsoft.com 9/9/2004 7:43:03 AM >>> > Howdy, > > and you should consider getting GIMP for Windows and seeing if it runs > on the machines in the class. > > and bring KNOPPIX and see if that runs. If it does, explain it will be > SSLLOOWW because it is running in memory. That tests if the machines > will load k12ltsp without problems and shows GIMP. > > Gary > > Karl Sarnow wrote: > > Larry D wrote: > > > >> My daughter has started taking digital photography in high school > this > >> year. But apparently the digital photography class is at the bottom > of > >> the food chain as far as computers are concerned. They have an > ancient > >> version of Adobe photoshop running on 1996 vintage computers. > >> According to my daughter, the students find this depressing as many > of > >> them have better stuff on their home computers. > >> > >> I occasionally use the GIMP on my Linux machine but I have never > used > >> any version of Photoshop. Can any one tell me how the latest GIMP > >> compares to photoshop? Will it run on 300MHz machines? I will be > >> talking to the teacher in a few weeks at open house. Perhaps I can > >> convince her that this is a better alternative than spending scarce > > >> resources on new versions of Photoshop. > >> > >> Larry > >> > >> > > > > Larry, > > the latest versiojn of GIMP is like all newer software fatter > than > > the older ones. You will have problems running later KDE versions > > running on old machines. I have an old 400MHz AMD machine with > 128MByte > > RAM and it runs SuSE 9.2 _ssllooowww_. As graphics operations are > always > > CPU demanding, photo manipulation on these machines is no fun. This > > holds for Photoshop as well as GIMP. > > > > Anyway I propose your students think of moving to GIMP, saving money > for > > licenses and invest that in new hardware, which is necessary anyway. > > > > Karl > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Subscription and Archive: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ > - > For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: > > > > _______________________________________________ > Subscription and Archive: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ > - > For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: > Bush staffers "are the biggest control freaks since Nixon. They are not just unhelpful, they are aggressively unhelpful." -Tom Defrank - Washington bureau chief New York Daily News From rwcitek at alum.calberkeley.org Thu Sep 9 14:46:48 2004 From: rwcitek at alum.calberkeley.org (Robert Citek) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 09:46:48 -0500 Subject: [OS:N:] GIMP vs. Adobe Photoshop In-Reply-To: <20040909083354.45616.qmail@web40413.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <142F928A-026F-11D9-B33E-000A95880F88@alum.calberkeley.org> On Thursday, Sep 9, 2004, at 03:33 US/Central, Meraj Rasool Khattak wrote: > I have been using Adobe Photoshop from the last 4+ > years, I found it very useful & easy to use. I started > using GIMP only a year or so ago. I can not compare it > completely with Photoshop, but from the day I switched > to Linux I have to use GIMP, I am able to do almost > eveything I was previously doing with Adobe Photoshop. > > So it means if anyone starts using GIMP (instead of > Photoshop) they will be able to achieve the same > result as one could with Photoshop. By doing so any > person or institute will obviously save hundred of $$ > in licenses. Are you saying that the skills learned with GIMP are directly and easily transferable to learning Photoshop, and vice versa? Regards, - Robert http://www.cwelug.org From kaveh at unice.fr Thu Sep 9 15:04:38 2004 From: kaveh at unice.fr (Kaveh Rassoulzadegan) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 17:04:38 +0200 Subject: [OS:N:] Re: GIMP vs. Adobe Photoshop (kv) In-Reply-To: <20040909141354.CC2F173454@hormel.redhat.com> Message-ID: Adobe photoshop has no real free open architecture enabling further low cost software development in the most comfortable manner. I doubt the highest average at high-school has to that yet learn image advanced filter development. For the most up-to-date ones, they might have installed themselves their favorite free or commercial package. The most useful approach according to me is not to that close focus on a particular commercial or open-source product but to much consider what all these products have in common (I/O formats, filter types, layers functionalities, palettes/histos). Even the older commercial or open source packages have those basic elements. Upon the hardware configuration of this school should be chosen the fastest/cheapest solutions. Tons of freewares allows to realize an increasing amount of functions slowly classed as basic ones nowadays. Some of them are open source as well and GIMP is kind of complete and far to be alone. If I dare adding something, I tempted to say that reflexes must be developed to be more functional and therefore less depending on a single free or commercial tool. Thus, might be gathered the right behavior to apply towards each corresponding image or other tool packages, making them more complementary. kv From accessys at smart.net Thu Sep 9 15:12:49 2004 From: accessys at smart.net (Access Systems) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 11:12:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [OS:N:] GIMP vs. Adobe Photoshop In-Reply-To: <1094740069.12611.212.camel@cspencer> References: <1094740069.12611.212.camel@cspencer> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Sep 2004, Chris Spencer wrote: > http://cinepaint.sourceforge.net/ > > CinePaint is EXTREMELY popular in the movie business. So is Linux for > that matter. Wasn't Shrek done in Linux????? Bob ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ CONFIGURE YOUR E-MAIL TO SEND TEXT ONLY, see http://expita.com/nomime.html +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve Neither liberty nor safety", Benjamin Franklin - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ASCII Ribbon Campaign accessBob NO HTML/PDF/RTF in e-mail accessys at smartnospam.net NO MSWord docs in e-mail Access Systems, engineers NO attachments in e-mail, *LINUX powered* access is a civil right *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# THIS message and any attachments are CONFIDENTIAL and may be privileged. They are intended ONLY for the individual or entity named From mmaxwell at mail.ucf.edu Thu Sep 9 15:23:21 2004 From: mmaxwell at mail.ucf.edu (Marc Maxwell) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 11:23:21 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] GIMP vs. Adobe Photoshop Message-ID: Shrek Toy Story The Incredible Hulk Harry Potter Lord of the Rings Gone with the wind (just kidding ha ha) They are usually at least rendered on linux. I had always envisioned the rendering being done on some high performance workstations but in the case of the Incredible Hulk, I think they did some serious clustering to make the rendering happen. Marc Maxwell Programmer-Analyst Certified Technical Trainer Scheduling Team SDES, Registrar's Office University of Central Florida Orlando, Florida 407.823.0588 >>> accessys at smart.net 9/9/2004 11:12:49 AM >>> On Thu, 9 Sep 2004, Chris Spencer wrote: > http://cinepaint.sourceforge.net/ > > CinePaint is EXTREMELY popular in the movie business. So is Linux for > that matter. Wasn't Shrek done in Linux????? Bob ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ CONFIGURE YOUR E-MAIL TO SEND TEXT ONLY, see http://expita.com/nomime.html +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve Neither liberty nor safety", Benjamin Franklin - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ASCII Ribbon Campaign accessBob NO HTML/PDF/RTF in e-mail accessys at smartnospam.net NO MSWord docs in e-mail Access Systems, engineers NO attachments in e-mail, *LINUX powered* access is a civil right *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# THIS message and any attachments are CONFIDENTIAL and may be privileged. They are intended ONLY for the individual or entity named _______________________________________________ Subscription and Archive: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ - For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: From chris at forevergalleries.com Thu Sep 9 16:03:39 2004 From: chris at forevergalleries.com (Chris Spencer) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 11:03:39 -0500 Subject: [OS:N:] GIMP vs. Adobe Photoshop In-Reply-To: <142F928A-026F-11D9-B33E-000A95880F88@alum.calberkeley.org> References: <142F928A-026F-11D9-B33E-000A95880F88@alum.calberkeley.org> Message-ID: <1094745818.12611.248.camel@cspencer> On Thu, 2004-09-09 at 09:46, Robert Citek wrote: > Are you saying that the skills learned with GIMP are directly and > easily transferable to learning Photoshop, and vice versa? Please don't consider this the answer for Meraj, however, the concepts are the same regardless of applications. The only difference really is in what buttons and other hoops are needed to generate the results. Each application offers a similar tool set and generates the same results. I can't attest to which one is better (more efficient at completing the majority of the needed results) because I am not familiar with recent versions of photoshop but I know that what can be done in one can be done in the other. -Chris Windows it the most secure when it is COMPLETELY OUT of anyone's box. - Anonymous NewsForge Reader From nbs at sonic.net Thu Sep 9 16:48:43 2004 From: nbs at sonic.net (Bill Kendrick) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 09:48:43 -0700 Subject: [OS:N:] GIMP vs. Adobe Photoshop In-Reply-To: <1094739746.12611.205.camel@cspencer> References: <200409082058.20062.ljd65536@comcast.net> <1094739746.12611.205.camel@cspencer> Message-ID: <20040909164843.GE22189@sonic.net> Be prepared to counter the following objections: > Which many argue schools aren't supposed to be concering themselves over. (e.g., "auto shop teaches car repair, not Ford repair" ;^) ) > > Photoshop is a well established product and is used by most graphics > professionals. The GIMP is an unknown quantity. It is likely that you > will be introducing it for the first time to the Apparently it, along with Inkscape and Scribus (I think?) are being used by a professional newspaper. I can dig up the article if you can't find it. (It was in the news within the last week or so.) The 16-bit version of Gimp (Cinepaint, prev. known as FilmGimp) is used for touching up movies. (Ever hear of the movies "Harry Potter" or "Scooby-Doo"? ;^) ) > then you may need to overcome a bias against it. > > To overcome that objection you will need to give examples where the GIMP > is being used by professionals and probably have a working copy handy > (IE: Knoppix) so you can do a live demo. Gimp _does_ run on Windows. If they have Windows machines, no reason to jump to Linux just to demo it. (And no reason to force the school to switch to Linux -- even though that would probably be beneficial -- just to use Gimp... or OpenOffice.org... or...) > To overcome this hurdle is going to take some luck and probably a > willingness to teach the teacher. Alternately there may be text books > available for the GIMP, but, then you would have to overcome other > budget issues. I'm not sure that there are TEXT books, but there are numerous books. I'm not sure how many are up-to-date (e.g., regarding Gimp 2.0), but many of the ideas from Gimp 1 should work in Gimp 2. The Gimp Users Manual is actually released as an 'Open Source' book. It is(was?) available at manual.gimp.org. I have the print version. :^) > It's just unbelievable the strength of product lock-in through the ever > popular "industry standard". Yep, that's why schools are all still using Apple IIs. Oh, wait! ;^) It is kind of ridiculous how people yell about "but this is _standard_!", and then a year later it's completely out-of-date and incompatible with the latest-and-greatest from Company X. *sigh* > Yes, we are making headway, but it seems to be like taking a sailboat > into the wind! We are DEFINITELY making headway. I've been involved in Linux and Linux User Groups since early 1999, and even in that short time (5.5 years), there's been an incredible growth of awareness _and_ interest in the 'general populace.' In the past, we'd go out to demo Linux, and people were completely unfamiliar and not usually very interested. Now when we do that, people seek us out! They _want_ to jump on the bandwagon, so to speak. ;) > The day will come though when the wind shifts and all these commercial > products will have to face the fury the free and open jet stream. Of > this we can be certain. > > Fight the fight. Indeed. :) -bill! From nbs at sonic.net Thu Sep 9 16:50:29 2004 From: nbs at sonic.net (Bill Kendrick) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 09:50:29 -0700 Subject: [OS:N:] GIMP vs. Adobe Photoshop In-Reply-To: <413FEF1E.5030404@dadoka.h.ni.schule.de> References: <200409082058.20062.ljd65536@comcast.net> <413FEF1E.5030404@dadoka.h.ni.schule.de> Message-ID: <20040909165029.GF22189@sonic.net> On Thu, Sep 09, 2004 at 07:50:22AM +0200, Karl Sarnow wrote: > Anyway I propose your students think of moving to GIMP, saving money for > licenses and invest that in new hardware, which is necessary anyway. The other great thing about Open Source like The Gimp. "Wanna work at home, kids? Here's a CD with The Gimp on it. Go install it" Can't exactly do that with something like $$ Photoshop $$ ;) -bill! From nbs at sonic.net Thu Sep 9 16:52:16 2004 From: nbs at sonic.net (Bill Kendrick) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 09:52:16 -0700 Subject: [OS:N:] GIMP vs. Adobe Photoshop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040909165216.GG22189@sonic.net> On Thu, Sep 09, 2004 at 09:26:43AM -0400, Marc Maxwell wrote: > GIMP is amazing. I am not personally very skilled in it, but I have > read some amazing things in Linux Journal and other magazines. > Photoshop, to me, is very flat and static compared to GIMP. When I was > in Ca there was even a GIMP ' The group was in SF. The person who ran that group, Robin Rowe (from Linux Journal mag, last I saw) moved down to LA. So now there are TWO "Linux Movie" groups in CA. On in the SF area (Fremont, to be exact; near San Jose), and one in the Hollywood Region (LA). http://linuxmovies.sourceforge.net/ -bill! From nbs at sonic.net Thu Sep 9 16:54:41 2004 From: nbs at sonic.net (Bill Kendrick) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 09:54:41 -0700 Subject: [OS:N:] GIMP vs. Adobe Photoshop In-Reply-To: References: <1094740069.12611.212.camel@cspencer> Message-ID: <20040909165441.GH22189@sonic.net> On Thu, Sep 09, 2004 at 11:12:49AM -0400, Access Systems wrote: > On Thu, 9 Sep 2004, Chris Spencer wrote: > > > http://cinepaint.sourceforge.net/ > > > > CinePaint is EXTREMELY popular in the movie business. So is Linux for > > that matter. > > Wasn't Shrek done in Linux????? "Done" as in '3D rendered', yes. Not sure if any Gimp'ing or Cinepaint'ing was done after the fact, though. Other movies, like the new Star Wars prequels, the latest Star Trek movie, The Incredible Hulk, the Lord of the Rings trilogy, and numerous others, were all 'done' in Linux, to some degree. (Probably rendering on massive clusters. WETA is apparently interesting in letting people use their rendering cluster for LotR for supercomputing use, now. :^) ) This is getting off-topic, though, since we're talking Gimp in classroom, not clusters doing multi-million-dollar movies. :) -bill! From nbs at sonic.net Thu Sep 9 16:56:30 2004 From: nbs at sonic.net (Bill Kendrick) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 09:56:30 -0700 Subject: [OS:N:] GIMP vs. Adobe Photoshop In-Reply-To: <142F928A-026F-11D9-B33E-000A95880F88@alum.calberkeley.org> References: <20040909083354.45616.qmail@web40413.mail.yahoo.com> <142F928A-026F-11D9-B33E-000A95880F88@alum.calberkeley.org> Message-ID: <20040909165630.GI22189@sonic.net> On Thu, Sep 09, 2004 at 09:46:48AM -0500, Robert Citek wrote: > > Are you saying that the skills learned with GIMP are directly and > easily transferable to learning Photoshop, and vice versa? I know that skills learned in PaintShop Pro were transferable to Gimp. Then I learned layers in Gimp, and I'm sure that would be transferable back to the newer versions of PSP, as well as PhotoShop. I just don't have $$ for Photoshop, nor a Windows machine to run it on. Hell, I use Gimp on WinXP at work for doing graphics for cellphone games. (Of course, you don't really need Photoshop for that. You need a simple sprite-editor. No reason to pay $100s and $100s for that functionality!) -bill! From gary.frederick at jsoft.com Thu Sep 9 17:18:42 2004 From: gary.frederick at jsoft.com (Gary Frederick) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 12:18:42 -0500 Subject: [OS:N:] GIMP vs. Adobe Photoshop In-Reply-To: <20040909165029.GF22189@sonic.net> References: <200409082058.20062.ljd65536@comcast.net> <413FEF1E.5030404@dadoka.h.ni.schule.de> <20040909165029.GF22189@sonic.net> Message-ID: <41409072.6050303@jsoft.com> Howdy, Bill Kendrick wrote: > On Thu, Sep 09, 2004 at 07:50:22AM +0200, Karl Sarnow wrote: > >>Anyway I propose your students think of moving to GIMP, saving money for >>licenses and invest that in new hardware, which is necessary anyway. > > > The other great thing about Open Source like The Gimp. > "Wanna work at home, kids? Here's a CD with The Gimp on it. Go install it" > > Can't exactly do that with something like $$ Photoshop $$ ;) !!! Make sure you have the Windows version and even the Mac version on the CD the kids can take home. Gary > > -bill! > > > _______________________________________________ > Subscription and Archive: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ > - > For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: > From gary.frederick at jsoft.com Thu Sep 9 17:22:47 2004 From: gary.frederick at jsoft.com (Gary Frederick) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 12:22:47 -0500 Subject: [OS:N:] GIMP vs. Adobe Photoshop In-Reply-To: <20040909164843.GE22189@sonic.net> References: <200409082058.20062.ljd65536@comcast.net> <1094739746.12611.205.camel@cspencer> <20040909164843.GE22189@sonic.net> Message-ID: <41409167.3060708@jsoft.com> Bill Kendrick wrote: > Be prepared to counter the following objections: > > > Which many argue schools aren't supposed to be concering themselves over. > (e.g., "auto shop teaches car repair, not Ford repair" ;^) ) > > > >>Photoshop is a well established product and is used by most graphics >>professionals. The GIMP is an unknown quantity. It is likely that you >>will be introducing it for the first time to the Blender was used to do some of the work on Spiderman. Someone that gets paid to do 3D animation said going from one $$$ program to Blender to another $$$ program took a little learning, but was worth it because of the skills you learn. Take some examples of movies created with Blender when you show what can be done with GIMP. Gary www.blender.org > > > Apparently it, along with Inkscape and Scribus (I think?) are being used > by a professional newspaper. I can dig up the article if you can't find it. > (It was in the news within the last week or so.) > > The 16-bit version of Gimp (Cinepaint, prev. known as FilmGimp) is used for > touching up movies. (Ever hear of the movies "Harry Potter" or "Scooby-Doo"? > ;^) ) > > > >>then you may need to overcome a bias against it. >> >>To overcome that objection you will need to give examples where the GIMP >>is being used by professionals and probably have a working copy handy >>(IE: Knoppix) so you can do a live demo. > > > Gimp _does_ run on Windows. If they have Windows machines, no reason to > jump to Linux just to demo it. (And no reason to force the school to > switch to Linux -- even though that would probably be beneficial -- just to > use Gimp... or OpenOffice.org... or...) > > > > >>To overcome this hurdle is going to take some luck and probably a >>willingness to teach the teacher. Alternately there may be text books >>available for the GIMP, but, then you would have to overcome other >>budget issues. > > > I'm not sure that there are TEXT books, but there are numerous books. > I'm not sure how many are up-to-date (e.g., regarding Gimp 2.0), but many > of the ideas from Gimp 1 should work in Gimp 2. > > The Gimp Users Manual is actually released as an 'Open Source' book. > It is(was?) available at manual.gimp.org. I have the print version. :^) > > > > >>It's just unbelievable the strength of product lock-in through the ever >>popular "industry standard". > > > Yep, that's why schools are all still using Apple IIs. Oh, wait! ;^) > > It is kind of ridiculous how people yell about "but this is _standard_!", > and then a year later it's completely out-of-date and incompatible with the > latest-and-greatest from Company X. *sigh* > > > > >>Yes, we are making headway, but it seems to be like taking a sailboat >>into the wind! > > > We are DEFINITELY making headway. I've been involved in Linux and Linux User > Groups since early 1999, and even in that short time (5.5 years), there's > been an incredible growth of awareness _and_ interest in the 'general > populace.' > > In the past, we'd go out to demo Linux, and people were completely unfamiliar > and not usually very interested. Now when we do that, people seek us out! > They _want_ to jump on the bandwagon, so to speak. ;) > > > >>The day will come though when the wind shifts and all these commercial >>products will have to face the fury the free and open jet stream. Of >>this we can be certain. >> >>Fight the fight. > > > Indeed. :) > > -bill! > > > _______________________________________________ > Subscription and Archive: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ > - > For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: > From jkinz at kinz.org Thu Sep 9 17:35:45 2004 From: jkinz at kinz.org (Jeff Kinz) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 13:35:45 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] GIMP vs. Adobe Photoshop In-Reply-To: <20040909165630.GI22189@sonic.net>; from nbs@sonic.net on Thu, Sep 09, 2004 at 09:56:30AM -0700 References: <20040909083354.45616.qmail@web40413.mail.yahoo.com> <142F928A-026F-11D9-B33E-000A95880F88@alum.calberkeley.org> <20040909165630.GI22189@sonic.net> Message-ID: <20040909133545.A24635@redline.comcast.net> On Thu, Sep 09, 2004 at 09:56:30AM -0700, Bill Kendrick wrote: > I know that skills learned in PaintShop Pro were transferable to Gimp. > Then I learned layers in Gimp, and I'm sure that would be transferable > back to the newer versions of PSP, as well as PhotoShop. > > I just don't have $$ for Photoshop, nor a Windows machine to run it on. > > Hell, I use Gimp on WinXP at work for doing graphics for cellphone games. > (Of course, you don't really need Photoshop for that. You need a simple > sprite-editor. No reason to pay $100s and $100s for that functionality!) An additional "Promo" point for Gimp when talking to educators: Only a small number (if any) of their students will become professional graphics artists. The rest (most) will receive the largest benefit from learning about the tool they are most likely to end up using in the future. Even if they feel Gimp is not as good as PhotoShop, Gimp is the right answer for all of the students except for the (**)three out of one thousand who will be computer artists. Since the future of all broadly based computing, including desktop computing, is Open Source, Gimp is the right answer from both a $ and the most useful thing to learn vantage point. (**)This statistic was totally made up. Replace it with any information you have that actually reflects reality. (***) (***)40% of all statistics are totally made up. -- Linux/Open Source. Now all your base belongs to you, for free. ============================================================ Idealism: "Realism applied over a longer time period" Jeff Kinz, Emergent Research, Hudson, MA. From jhogan at redhat.com Thu Sep 9 17:41:03 2004 From: jhogan at redhat.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 13:41:03 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] GIMP vs. Adobe Photoshop In-Reply-To: <20040909165441.GH22189@sonic.net> References: <1094740069.12611.212.camel@cspencer> <20040909165441.GH22189@sonic.net> Message-ID: <1094751663.2633.8.camel@dhcp63-232.rdu.redhat.com> On Thu, 2004-09-09 at 12:54, Bill Kendrick wrote: > On Thu, Sep 09, 2004 at 11:12:49AM -0400, Access Systems wrote: > > On Thu, 9 Sep 2004, Chris Spencer wrote: > > > > > http://cinepaint.sourceforge.net/ > > > > > > CinePaint is EXTREMELY popular in the movie business. So is Linux for > > > that matter. > > > > Wasn't Shrek done in Linux????? > > "Done" as in '3D rendered', yes. Not sure if any Gimp'ing or Cinepaint'ing > was done after the fact, though. IIRC they did most art work in Maya (running on Linux) and used Pixar's Renderman Maya plug-in to render to an x86 farm running Linux. --jeremy From jhogan at redhat.com Thu Sep 9 17:55:34 2004 From: jhogan at redhat.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 13:55:34 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] GIMP vs. Adobe Photoshop In-Reply-To: <41409167.3060708@jsoft.com> References: <200409082058.20062.ljd65536@comcast.net> <1094739746.12611.205.camel@cspencer> <20040909164843.GE22189@sonic.net> <41409167.3060708@jsoft.com> Message-ID: <1094752534.2633.21.camel@dhcp63-232.rdu.redhat.com> On Thu, 2004-09-09 at 13:22, Gary Frederick wrote: > Take some examples of movies created with Blender when you show what can > be done with GIMP. Also, check out what the National Centre for Computer Animation at Bournemouth does with Linx and F/OSS tools. http://www.redhat.com/worldtour/followup/ Second presentation down. They have a mixed stack still, but use all of the best F/OSS tools. Ari mentioned that they teach the fundamentals of design and 3D and animation, which conceptually transfer, and learning new tools is common in this sector. The students often have to use multiple tools because one or the other has a particular feature they like. Since that's gotten off topic from Gimp v Photoshop, I will say that a designer who worked here used to design in Photoshop/Illustrator and the Gimp and said plus or minus some filters and fonts the Gimp was a learning curve away from being every bit as powerful as Photoshop. He also mentioned having to take a class and read books on Adobe, and it's no big deal to have to do so again to learn the Gimp. There are a few books on Amazon I've seen folks recommend (Michael Hammel's books, and Grokking the Gimp by New Riders) but they look dated to me (esp since 2.x is out) you may want to poke around and see if there's a more recent title. --jeremy From cmacd at ACHILLES.net Thu Sep 9 18:17:43 2004 From: cmacd at ACHILLES.net (Charles MacDonald) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 14:17:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: GNUwin Re: [OS:N:] GIMP vs. Adobe Photoshop In-Reply-To: <41409072.6050303@jsoft.com> References: <200409082058.20062.ljd65536@comcast.net> <413FEF1E.5030404@dadoka.h.ni.schule.de> <20040909165029.GF22189@sonic.net> <41409072.6050303@jsoft.com> Message-ID: <33496.209.151.7.146.1094753863.squirrel@webmail.achilles.net> Gary Frederick said: >> "Wanna work at home, kids? Here's a CD with The Gimp on it. Go >> install it" >> >> Can't exactly do that with something like $$ Photoshop $$ ;) > > !!! > > Make sure you have the Windows version and even the Mac version on the > CD the kids can take home. > What you mean you have not been giving all the kids who use windows copies of GNUwin? http://gnuwin.epfl.ch/ -- Charles MacDonald Stittsville Ontario cmacd at achilles.net Just Beyond the Fringe http://home.achilles.net/~cmacd/ No Microsoft Products were used in sending this e-mail. From nbs at sonic.net Thu Sep 9 18:30:42 2004 From: nbs at sonic.net (Bill Kendrick) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 11:30:42 -0700 Subject: GNUwin Re: [OS:N:] GIMP vs. Adobe Photoshop In-Reply-To: <33496.209.151.7.146.1094753863.squirrel@webmail.achilles.net> References: <200409082058.20062.ljd65536@comcast.net> <413FEF1E.5030404@dadoka.h.ni.schule.de> <20040909165029.GF22189@sonic.net> <41409072.6050303@jsoft.com> <33496.209.151.7.146.1094753863.squirrel@webmail.achilles.net> Message-ID: <20040909183042.GC3093@sonic.net> On Thu, Sep 09, 2004 at 02:17:43PM -0400, Charles MacDonald wrote: > > What you mean you have not been giving all the kids who use windows copies > of GNUwin? > > http://gnuwin.epfl.ch/ And/or TheOpenCD? http://www.theopencd.org/ -bill! (proud to say both come with Tux Paint ;) ) From rwcitek at alum.calberkeley.org Thu Sep 9 18:41:29 2004 From: rwcitek at alum.calberkeley.org (Robert Citek) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 13:41:29 -0500 Subject: GNUwin Re: [OS:N:] GIMP vs. Adobe Photoshop In-Reply-To: <20040909183042.GC3093@sonic.net> Message-ID: On Thursday, Sep 9, 2004, at 13:30 US/Central, Bill Kendrick wrote: > On Thu, Sep 09, 2004 at 02:17:43PM -0400, Charles MacDonald wrote: >> >> What you mean you have not been giving all the kids who use windows >> copies >> of GNUwin? >> >> http://gnuwin.epfl.ch/ > > And/or TheOpenCD? > > http://www.theopencd.org/ And both (and other FLOSS for Windows, Mac OS/X, and Linux) are available via BitTorrent. For a list of software and .torrent files, visit: http://www.cwelug.org/cgi-bin/wiki.cgi?Downloads I'm still working on putting together a Mac OS/X FLOSS CD. Regards, - Robert http://www.cwelug.org From jhogan at redhat.com Thu Sep 9 18:33:11 2004 From: jhogan at redhat.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 14:33:11 -0400 Subject: GNUwin Re: [OS:N:] GIMP vs. Adobe Photoshop In-Reply-To: <20040909183042.GC3093@sonic.net> References: <200409082058.20062.ljd65536@comcast.net> <413FEF1E.5030404@dadoka.h.ni.schule.de> <20040909165029.GF22189@sonic.net> <41409072.6050303@jsoft.com> <33496.209.151.7.146.1094753863.squirrel@webmail.achilles.net> <20040909183042.GC3093@sonic.net> Message-ID: <1094754790.2633.23.camel@dhcp63-232.rdu.redhat.com> On Thu, 2004-09-09 at 14:30, Bill Kendrick wrote: > On Thu, Sep 09, 2004 at 02:17:43PM -0400, Charles MacDonald wrote: > > > > What you mean you have not been giving all the kids who use windows copies > > of GNUwin? > > > > http://gnuwin.epfl.ch/ > > And/or TheOpenCD? > > http://www.theopencd.org/ And to round out the trifecta: http://pchb1f.gallaudet.edu/tricki/LegUp --jeremy From jkinz at kinz.org Thu Sep 9 18:43:08 2004 From: jkinz at kinz.org (Jeff Kinz) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 14:43:08 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] commercial artists - 1 in 4000 Message-ID: <20040909144308.B24635@redline.comcast.net> This just in, according to the US dept. of Labor, approximately 1 out of every 3,880 people employed in the US today is a commercial artists. (graphic/computer artists are a subset of that group). So - schools only need to educate 1 in about every 3800 students to be commercial artists. Even if Gimp isn't exactly equivalent to Adobe Photoshop, it is certainly adequate to the needs of primary schools. -- Linux/Open Source. Now all your base belongs to you, for free. ============================================================ Idealism: "Realism applied over a longer time period" Jeff Kinz, Emergent Research, Hudson, MA. From nbs at sonic.net Thu Sep 9 18:46:46 2004 From: nbs at sonic.net (Bill Kendrick) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 11:46:46 -0700 Subject: GNUwin Re: [OS:N:] GIMP vs. Adobe Photoshop In-Reply-To: References: <20040909183042.GC3093@sonic.net> Message-ID: <20040909184646.GA4618@sonic.net> On Thu, Sep 09, 2004 at 01:41:29PM -0500, Robert Citek wrote: > I'm still working on putting together a Mac OS/X FLOSS CD. Let us know when you do! When my LUG goes out to promote Linux and OSS, we tend to find far more than 3% of them are Mac users. :) (Maybe it's Davis...?) -bill! From gary.frederick at jsoft.com Thu Sep 9 19:22:08 2004 From: gary.frederick at jsoft.com (Gary Frederick) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 14:22:08 -0500 Subject: GNUwin Re: [OS:N:] GIMP vs. Adobe Photoshop In-Reply-To: <1094754790.2633.23.camel@dhcp63-232.rdu.redhat.com> References: <200409082058.20062.ljd65536@comcast.net> <413FEF1E.5030404@dadoka.h.ni.schule.de> <20040909165029.GF22189@sonic.net> <41409072.6050303@jsoft.com> <33496.209.151.7.146.1094753863.squirrel@webmail.achilles.net> <20040909183042.GC3093@sonic.net> <1094754790.2633.23.camel@dhcp63-232.rdu.redhat.com> Message-ID: <4140AD60.5000908@jsoft.com> Jeremy Hogan wrote: > On Thu, 2004-09-09 at 14:30, Bill Kendrick wrote: > >>On Thu, Sep 09, 2004 at 02:17:43PM -0400, Charles MacDonald wrote: >> >>>What you mean you have not been giving all the kids who use windows copies >>>of GNUwin? >>> >>>http://gnuwin.epfl.ch/ I have >> >>And/or TheOpenCD? >> >> http://www.theopencd.org/ ditto > > > And to round out the trifecta: > > http://pchb1f.gallaudet.edu/tricki/LegUp And will now include this nice page with good info - thanks ----- I have found that TheOpenCD and especially the GNUwin CD are a lot to give a kid that is just learning about open source. It is sometimes useful to have just the software you are looking at such as GIMP and a few others and pointers to ALL they can get via BitTorrent or other methods on a CD. And it is nice to have the Windows and Mac versions so if you have someone with a Mac, they get going right away. There are so many choices that it is somewhat overwhelming to get started. Getting the idea that there are choices and good ones across with pointers to where to go to follow up is useful. Gary From kjcole at gri.gallaudet.edu Thu Sep 9 19:32:04 2004 From: kjcole at gri.gallaudet.edu (Kevin Cole) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 15:32:04 -0400 Subject: GNUwin Re: [OS:N:] GIMP vs. Adobe Photoshop In-Reply-To: <4140AD60.5000908@jsoft.com> References: <200409082058.20062.ljd65536@comcast.net> <413FEF1E.5030404@dadoka.h.ni.schule.de> <20040909165029.GF22189@sonic.net> <41409072.6050303@jsoft.com> <33496.209.151.7.146.1094753863.squirrel@webmail.achilles.net> <20040909183042.GC3093@sonic.net> <1094754790.2633.23.camel@dhcp63-232.rdu.redhat.com> <4140AD60.5000908@jsoft.com> Message-ID: <20040909193203.GD24833@gri.gallaudet.edu> On Thu, Sep 09, 2004 at 02:22:08PM -0500, Gary Frederick wrote: > > Jeremy Hogan wrote: > > > >And to round out the trifecta: > > > >http://pchb1f.gallaudet.edu/tricki/LegUp > > And will now include this > nice page with good info - thanks Yer welcome. ;-) -- Kevin Cole | Key ID: 0xE6F332C7 Gallaudet University | WWW: http://gri.gallaudet.edu/~kjcole/ Hall Memorial Bldg S-419 | V/TTY: (202) 651-5135 Washington, D.C. 20002-3695 | FAX: (202) 651-5746 "Using vi is not a sin. It's a penance." -- St. IGNUcious, Church of Emacs From chris at forevergalleries.com Thu Sep 9 20:03:20 2004 From: chris at forevergalleries.com (Chris Spencer) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 15:03:20 -0500 Subject: GNUwin Re: [OS:N:] GIMP vs. Adobe Photoshop In-Reply-To: <20040909193203.GD24833@gri.gallaudet.edu> References: <200409082058.20062.ljd65536@comcast.net> <413FEF1E.5030404@dadoka.h.ni.schule.de> <20040909165029.GF22189@sonic.net> <41409072.6050303@jsoft.com> <33496.209.151.7.146.1094753863.squirrel@webmail.achilles.net> <20040909183042.GC3093@sonic.net> <1094754790.2633.23.camel@dhcp63-232.rdu.redhat.com> <4140AD60.5000908@jsoft.com> <20040909193203.GD24833@gri.gallaudet.edu> Message-ID: <1094760200.12611.378.camel@cspencer> Everything I read about free versions of the GIMP on windows suggest that it's not terribly stable. I certainly hope you give it an extensive try before advocating it. -Chris (who would pitch Linux anyway) From nbs at sonic.net Thu Sep 9 20:18:09 2004 From: nbs at sonic.net (Bill Kendrick) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 13:18:09 -0700 Subject: GNUwin Re: [OS:N:] GIMP vs. Adobe Photoshop In-Reply-To: <1094760200.12611.378.camel@cspencer> References: <200409082058.20062.ljd65536@comcast.net> <413FEF1E.5030404@dadoka.h.ni.schule.de> <20040909165029.GF22189@sonic.net> <41409072.6050303@jsoft.com> <33496.209.151.7.146.1094753863.squirrel@webmail.achilles.net> <20040909183042.GC3093@sonic.net> <1094754790.2633.23.camel@dhcp63-232.rdu.redhat.com> <4140AD60.5000908@jsoft.com> <20040909193203.GD24833@gri.gallaudet.edu> <1094760200.12611.378.camel@cspencer> Message-ID: <20040909201809.GA13564@sonic.net> On Thu, Sep 09, 2004 at 03:03:20PM -0500, Chris Spencer wrote: > Everything I read about free versions of the GIMP on windows suggest > that it's not terribly stable. > > I certainly hope you give it an extensive try before advocating it. I haven't had many issues with Gimp 1.2.5 on WinXP. Something somewhere somehow killed it's PNG capabilities, but who knows WHAT XP does to itself in the course of 6 months. >:^( I should see if Gimp 2 is out for Win (probably is), and give it a whirl. -bill! From gary.frederick at jsoft.com Thu Sep 9 20:38:00 2004 From: gary.frederick at jsoft.com (Gary Frederick) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 15:38:00 -0500 Subject: GNUwin Re: [OS:N:] GIMP vs. Adobe Photoshop In-Reply-To: <1094760200.12611.378.camel@cspencer> References: <200409082058.20062.ljd65536@comcast.net> <413FEF1E.5030404@dadoka.h.ni.schule.de> <20040909165029.GF22189@sonic.net> <41409072.6050303@jsoft.com> <33496.209.151.7.146.1094753863.squirrel@webmail.achilles.net> <20040909183042.GC3093@sonic.net> <1094754790.2633.23.camel@dhcp63-232.rdu.redhat.com> <4140AD60.5000908@jsoft.com> <20040909193203.GD24833@gri.gallaudet.edu> <1094760200.12611.378.camel@cspencer> Message-ID: <4140BF28.3040600@jsoft.com> Howdy, Chris Spencer wrote: > Everything I read about free versions of the GIMP on windows suggest > that it's not terribly stable. > > I certainly hope you give it an extensive try before advocating it. We did. We have used it for a while. I have not heard of any problems with GIMP 2. Gary > > -Chris > (who would pitch Linux anyway) > > > _______________________________________________ > Subscription and Archive: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ > - > For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: > From chris at forevergalleries.com Thu Sep 9 21:08:35 2004 From: chris at forevergalleries.com (Chris Spencer) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 16:08:35 -0500 Subject: GNUwin Re: [OS:N:] GIMP vs. Adobe Photoshop In-Reply-To: <4140BF28.3040600@jsoft.com> References: <200409082058.20062.ljd65536@comcast.net> <413FEF1E.5030404@dadoka.h.ni.schule.de> <20040909165029.GF22189@sonic.net> <41409072.6050303@jsoft.com> <33496.209.151.7.146.1094753863.squirrel@webmail.achilles.net> <20040909183042.GC3093@sonic.net> <1094754790.2633.23.camel@dhcp63-232.rdu.redhat.com> <4140AD60.5000908@jsoft.com> <20040909193203.GD24833@gri.gallaudet.edu> <1094760200.12611.378.camel@cspencer> <4140BF28.3040600@jsoft.com> Message-ID: <1094764114.12611.417.camel@cspencer> Great. Can you point me to the stable easy to install GIMP 2 for windows location? Is it: http://www2.arnes.si/~sopjsimo/gimp/stable.html ? -Chris On Thu, 2004-09-09 at 15:38, Gary Frederick wrote: > Howdy, > > Chris Spencer wrote: > > Everything I read about free versions of the GIMP on windows suggest > > that it's not terribly stable. > > > > I certainly hope you give it an extensive try before advocating it. > > We did. We have used it for a while. > > I have not heard of any problems with GIMP 2. > > Gary > > > > > -Chris > > (who would pitch Linux anyway) > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Subscription and Archive: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ > > - > > For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Subscription and Archive: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ > - > For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: > "Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the Government's purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding." - Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis, Olmstead v. U.S. (1928) From jkinz at kinz.org Thu Sep 9 23:11:19 2004 From: jkinz at kinz.org (Jeff Kinz) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 19:11:19 -0400 Subject: GNUwin Re: [OS:N:] GIMP vs. Adobe Photoshop In-Reply-To: <1094764114.12611.417.camel@cspencer>; from chris@forevergalleries.com on Thu, Sep 09, 2004 at 04:08:35PM -0500 References: <20040909165029.GF22189@sonic.net> <41409072.6050303@jsoft.com> <33496.209.151.7.146.1094753863.squirrel@webmail.achilles.net> <20040909183042.GC3093@sonic.net> <1094754790.2633.23.camel@dhcp63-232.rdu.redhat.com> <4140AD60.5000908@jsoft.com> <20040909193203.GD24833@gri.gallaudet.edu> <1094760200.12611.378.camel@cspencer> <4140BF28.3040600@jsoft.com> <1094764114.12611.417.camel@cspencer> Message-ID: <20040909191119.D24635@redline.comcast.net> On Thu, Sep 09, 2004 at 04:08:35PM -0500, Chris Spencer wrote: > Great. Can you point me to the stable easy to install GIMP 2 for > windows location? > > Is it: > http://www2.arnes.si/~sopjsimo/gimp/stable.html yep! thats it. -- Linux/Open Source. Now all your base belongs to you, for free. ============================================================ Idealism: "Realism applied over a longer time period" Jeff Kinz, Emergent Research, Hudson, MA. From jay at scherrer.com Thu Sep 9 23:38:35 2004 From: jay at scherrer.com (Jay Scherrer) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 16:38:35 -0700 Subject: [OS:N:] GIMP vs. Adobe Photoshop In-Reply-To: <20040909164843.GE22189@sonic.net> References: <200409082058.20062.ljd65536@comcast.net> <1094739746.12611.205.camel@cspencer> <20040909164843.GE22189@sonic.net> Message-ID: <200409091638.35909.jay@scherrer.com> I refer to the "Gimp: the official hand book" published by Coriolis almost daily. There is no reason to not use the Gimp. After all it is basically the backbone for most of the Linux graphics. But in particular The Gimp is very plug-in friendly. By that I mean, a student might even take up learning perl to add a script that would standardize a certain graphic effect. Isn't that how open source works? Jay On Thursday 09 September 2004 09:48 am, Bill Kendrick wrote: > Be prepared to counter the following objections: > > > Which many argue schools aren't supposed to be concering themselves over. > (e.g., "auto shop teaches car repair, not Ford repair" ;^) ) > > > Photoshop is a well established product and is used by most graphics > > professionals. The GIMP is an unknown quantity. It is likely that you > > will be introducing it for the first time to the > > Apparently it, along with Inkscape and Scribus (I think?) are being used > by a professional newspaper. I can dig up the article if you can't find > it. (It was in the news within the last week or so.) > > The 16-bit version of Gimp (Cinepaint, prev. known as FilmGimp) is used for > touching up movies. (Ever hear of the movies "Harry Potter" or > "Scooby-Doo"? ;^) ) > > > then you may need to overcome a bias against it. > > > > To overcome that objection you will need to give examples where the GIMP > > is being used by professionals and probably have a working copy handy > > (IE: Knoppix) so you can do a live demo. > > Gimp _does_ run on Windows. If they have Windows machines, no reason to > jump to Linux just to demo it. (And no reason to force the school to > switch to Linux -- even though that would probably be beneficial -- just to > use Gimp... or OpenOffice.org... or...) > > > > > > To overcome this hurdle is going to take some luck and probably a > > willingness to teach the teacher. Alternately there may be text books > > available for the GIMP, but, then you would have to overcome other > > budget issues. > > I'm not sure that there are TEXT books, but there are numerous books. > I'm not sure how many are up-to-date (e.g., regarding Gimp 2.0), but many > of the ideas from Gimp 1 should work in Gimp 2. > > The Gimp Users Manual is actually released as an 'Open Source' book. > It is(was?) available at manual.gimp.org. I have the print version. :^) > > > > > > It's just unbelievable the strength of product lock-in through the ever > > popular "industry standard". > > Yep, that's why schools are all still using Apple IIs. Oh, wait! ;^) > > It is kind of ridiculous how people yell about "but this is _standard_!", > and then a year later it's completely out-of-date and incompatible with the > latest-and-greatest from Company X. *sigh* > > > > > > Yes, we are making headway, but it seems to be like taking a sailboat > > into the wind! > > We are DEFINITELY making headway. I've been involved in Linux and Linux > User Groups since early 1999, and even in that short time (5.5 years), > there's been an incredible growth of awareness _and_ interest in the > 'general populace.' > > In the past, we'd go out to demo Linux, and people were completely > unfamiliar and not usually very interested. Now when we do that, people > seek us out! They _want_ to jump on the bandwagon, so to speak. ;) > > > The day will come though when the wind shifts and all these commercial > > products will have to face the fury the free and open jet stream. Of > > this we can be certain. > > > > Fight the fight. > > Indeed. :) > > -bill! > > > _______________________________________________ > Subscription and Archive: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ - > For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: > From jay at scherrer.com Thu Sep 9 23:55:14 2004 From: jay at scherrer.com (Jay Scherrer) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 16:55:14 -0700 Subject: [OS:N:] commercial artists - 1 in 4000 In-Reply-To: <20040909144308.B24635@redline.comcast.net> References: <20040909144308.B24635@redline.comcast.net> Message-ID: <200409091655.14530.jay@scherrer.com> According to your quote from the US Dept. of Labor, about how many people are sales people? To be a Graphic / Computer artist comes hand in hand with anything communicated over the web. I figure about 75% of programing is done by graphic artists. Jay On Thursday 09 September 2004 11:43 am, Jeff Kinz wrote: > This just in, according to the US dept. of Labor, approximately > 1 out of every 3,880 people employed in the US today is a commercial > artists. (graphic/computer artists are a subset of that group). > > So - schools only need to educate 1 in about every 3800 students to be > commercial artists. Even if Gimp isn't exactly equivalent to > Adobe Photoshop, it is certainly adequate to the needs of primary > schools. > > -- > Linux/Open Source. Now all your base belongs to you, for free. > ============================================================ > Idealism: "Realism applied over a longer time period" > > Jeff Kinz, Emergent Research, Hudson, MA. > > > _______________________________________________ > Subscription and Archive: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ - > For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: > From jkinz at kinz.org Fri Sep 10 01:23:14 2004 From: jkinz at kinz.org (Jeff Kinz) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 21:23:14 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] commercial artists - 1 in 4000 In-Reply-To: <200409091655.14530.jay@scherrer.com>; from jay@scherrer.com on Thu, Sep 09, 2004 at 04:55:14PM -0700 References: <20040909144308.B24635@redline.comcast.net> <200409091655.14530.jay@scherrer.com> Message-ID: <20040909212314.E24635@redline.comcast.net> On Thu, Sep 09, 2004 at 04:55:14PM -0700, Jay Scherrer wrote: > According to your quote from the US Dept. of Labor, about how many people are > sales people? To be a Graphic / Computer artist comes hand in hand with > anything communicated over the web. I figure about 75% of programing is done > by graphic artists. Rephrase please. I don't understand what you're asking/stating. BTW- here is the page for DOL stats: http://www.bls.gov/ Everything comes from there (starts w/census). > Jay > On Thursday 09 September 2004 11:43 am, Jeff Kinz wrote: > > This just in, according to the US dept. of Labor, approximately > > 1 out of every 3,880 people employed in the US today is a commercial > > artists. (graphic/computer artists are a subset of that group). > > > > So - schools only need to educate 1 in about every 3800 students to be > > commercial artists. Even if Gimp isn't exactly equivalent to > > Adobe Photoshop, it is certainly adequate to the needs of primary > > schools. > > > > -- > > Linux/Open Source. Now all your base belongs to you, for free. > > ============================================================ > > Idealism: "Realism applied over a longer time period" > > > > Jeff Kinz, Emergent Research, Hudson, MA. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Subscription and Archive: > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ - > > For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Subscription and Archive: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ > - > For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: > > -- Linux/Open Source. Now all your base belongs to you, for free. ============================================================ Idealism: "Realism applied over a longer time period" Jeff Kinz, Emergent Research, Hudson, MA. From nick at linux.act.edu.au Fri Sep 10 02:05:05 2004 From: nick at linux.act.edu.au (Nicholas Oliver) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 12:05:05 +1000 Subject: [OS:N:] Re: Gimp V Photoshop In-Reply-To: <20040909193503.D59E873FCC@hormel.redhat.com> References: <20040909193503.D59E873FCC@hormel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1094775319.2818.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> Gimp V Photoshop recount I teach multimedia in a Mac OS X lab with four additional modest 1Gig x86 machines running FC 2. When we learn about image editing we use Photoshop because we are lucky enough to have a current licence. The burden that this program puts on our 500mhz iMacs is pretty substantial but everything holds together. In order to achieve the various competencies students must demonstrate that they can perform a series of key operations on images repeatedly and over a period of time. You don't get the competencies by doing it once. While most of my instruction is done with Photoshop key operations like selecting, transforming, saving, layers, filters, levels, colour balance, curves etc must be done using Gimp as well. We use Gimp 1 on the macs (soon to upgrade to the new Gimp2 since the binary was put on the Apple web site) but the FC 2 linux boxes have version 2 and it seems to work the same way. Students can take home a "TheOpenCD" disk and install on their mostly windows machines and practise these key skills. Gimp is critical to our teaching image editing competencies because it allows us to really evaluate the students understanding of the principles and generic skills involved in this knowledge domain. If the kids can load, touch-up, save an image in Adobe Photoshop and Gimp then they can do it in any such program. >From an equity and access point of view I am persuaded that Gimp is an important tool to be teaching because it can be distributed freely. I am not persuaded that we should be teaching "industry standard" programs just because they are used in business, that is just playing into the hands of industry. Using very expensive software because it is a dominant product in the graphic arts businesses simply sells that software to children and their families. It is incumbent on school teachers to show children and families powerful and economical software. Having said that I would recommend teaching with Adobe Photoshop because it is a well designed and powerful editing tool. It does cost hundreds and hundreds of Aussie dollars though and this worries me because from a show of hands almost all of my students with PCs at home claim to have it.They don't pay the $1000 for it, they steal it of course and then pass them around with cracked codes. This is I believe a very great problem and one that can in part be addressed by demonstrating the use of FOSS and showing it being used in powerful ways. Using expensive software in front of the children makes them want it and so naturally because they can, they steal it. I can teach generic skills on both programs easily and the only difficulty is getting the students over their frustration that the quick clicks they learn in one don't always work in the other but that is a minor problem. The younger they are the less this seems to matter. For example getting to the levels controls in both programs requires the same number of mouse clicks just to slightly different parts of the screen. From there it is all much the same. Hope that helps Larry. Nick Oliver Multimedia Lake Tuggeranong College nick at linux.act.edu.au From karl at dadoka.h.ni.schule.de Fri Sep 10 09:34:29 2004 From: karl at dadoka.h.ni.schule.de (Karl Sarnow) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:34:29 +0200 Subject: [OS:N:] GIMP vs. Adobe Photoshop In-Reply-To: <1094740069.12611.212.camel@cspencer> References: <1094740069.12611.212.camel@cspencer> Message-ID: <41417525.8020906@dadoka.h.ni.schule.de> Chris Spencer wrote: > There once was a product known as the GIMP. Then someone said "wouldn't > it be cool if we could touch up video" and others said "Yes, it would be > cool" and it was done. > > Film Gimp was born. Then someone said "but we are more than GIMP we are > CinePaint" and others mindlessly chimed in "Yes, master" and it was so. > > http://cinepaint.sourceforge.net/ > > CinePaint is EXTREMELY popular in the movie business. So is Linux for > that matter. > > -Chris > Great! Just what I needed to manipulate 32Bit/color images. Karl -- Dr. Karl Sarnow Teacher at Gymnasium Isernhagen German national co-ordinator of the European Schools Project e-Mail: karl at dadoka.h.ni.schule.de URL: http://www.shuttle.schule.de/h/dadoka From karl at dadoka.h.ni.schule.de Fri Sep 10 09:44:24 2004 From: karl at dadoka.h.ni.schule.de (Karl Sarnow) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:44:24 +0200 Subject: [OS:N:] GIMP vs. Adobe Photoshop In-Reply-To: <20040909165029.GF22189@sonic.net> References: <200409082058.20062.ljd65536@comcast.net> <413FEF1E.5030404@dadoka.h.ni.schule.de> <20040909165029.GF22189@sonic.net> Message-ID: <41417778.1000506@dadoka.h.ni.schule.de> Bill Kendrick wrote: > On Thu, Sep 09, 2004 at 07:50:22AM +0200, Karl Sarnow wrote: > >>Anyway I propose your students think of moving to GIMP, saving money for >>licenses and invest that in new hardware, which is necessary anyway. > > > The other great thing about Open Source like The Gimp. > "Wanna work at home, kids? Here's a CD with The Gimp on it. Go install it" > > Can't exactly do that with something like $$ Photoshop $$ ;) > > -bill! > > Exactly! And if you give them a Knoppix CDROM, they even do not need to install anything. Just insert and go. For this reason I have created a Knoppix version for my school, containing all software I need for teaching my subjects. You may download it at http://gymnasium.isernhagen.de/giknoppix/index.html Karl -- Dr. Karl Sarnow Teacher at Gymnasium Isernhagen German national co-ordinator of the European Schools Project e-Mail: karl at dadoka.h.ni.schule.de URL: http://www.shuttle.schule.de/h/dadoka From ljd65536 at comcast.net Fri Sep 10 14:54:24 2004 From: ljd65536 at comcast.net (Larry D) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 10:54:24 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] Re: Gimp V Photoshop In-Reply-To: <1094775319.2818.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20040909193503.D59E873FCC@hormel.redhat.com> <1094775319.2818.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200409101054.25003.ljd65536@comcast.net> Wow. This thread had been been pretty sleepy lately but my original post seems to have woken everybody up. I've been away from my email for a day. Thanks for all the comments. There are quite a few good suggestions for trying to sell this. There must be something about a case like this that catches peoples imagination. I talked to a few people at work about this and a couple of people with Linux system administrator experience immediately volunteered to help. I'm inspired to pursue this. I've been looking at the k12ltsp site and clearly part of the solution is to address the ancient hardware problem. Image manipulation puts quite a burden on a memory and resources. I have some old hardware lying around that I'm going to experiment with. For a few hundred dollars worth of memory, which I will donate, I think I can make a server. The comments I have received convince me that GIMP will do the job. If it can have a snappy response, I think that should put it over the top. I feel much less daunted by the technical issues than how to approach it with the teacher and ultimately the educational bureaucracy. Larry From kjcole at gri.gallaudet.edu Fri Sep 10 14:58:32 2004 From: kjcole at gri.gallaudet.edu (Kevin Cole) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 10:58:32 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] GIMP vs. Adobe Photoshop In-Reply-To: <41417778.1000506@dadoka.h.ni.schule.de> References: <200409082058.20062.ljd65536@comcast.net> <413FEF1E.5030404@dadoka.h.ni.schule.de> <20040909165029.GF22189@sonic.net> <41417778.1000506@dadoka.h.ni.schule.de> Message-ID: <20040910145832.GA4249@gri.gallaudet.edu> On Fri, Sep 10, 2004 at 11:44:24AM +0200, Karl Sarnow wrote: > For this reason I have created a Knoppix version for my school, > containing all software I need for teaching my subjects. > > You may download it at > > http://gymnasium.isernhagen.de/giknoppix/index.html You should consider informing the folks who maintain the Live CD Collection at: http://www.frozentech.com/content/livecd.php (You might also check out some of the Educational Live CD's already there and maybe get ideas for your next release...) -- Kevin Cole | Key ID: 0xE6F332C7 Gallaudet University | WWW: http://gri.gallaudet.edu/~kjcole/ Hall Memorial Bldg S-419 | V/TTY: (202) 651-5135 Washington, D.C. 20002-3695 | FAX: (202) 651-5746 "Using vi is not a sin. It's a penance." -- St. IGNUcious, Church of Emacs From gary.frederick at jsoft.com Sat Sep 11 10:27:01 2004 From: gary.frederick at jsoft.com (Gary Frederick) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 05:27:01 -0500 Subject: GNUwin Re: [OS:N:] GIMP vs. Adobe Photoshop In-Reply-To: <20040909191119.D24635@redline.comcast.net> References: <20040909165029.GF22189@sonic.net> <41409072.6050303@jsoft.com> <33496.209.151.7.146.1094753863.squirrel@webmail.achilles.net> <20040909183042.GC3093@sonic.net> <1094754790.2633.23.camel@dhcp63-232.rdu.redhat.com> <4140AD60.5000908@jsoft.com> <20040909193203.GD24833@gri.gallaudet.edu> <1094760200.12611.378.camel@cspencer> <4140BF28.3040600@jsoft.com> <1094764114.12611.417.camel@cspencer> <20040909191119.D24635@redline.comcast.net> Message-ID: <4142D2F5.8000801@jsoft.com> I updated GIMP from 2.0.0 to 2.0.4 with the newer gtk+ and the help and animation program to see if it went smooth. So far I have had no problems and I have been using the new version for almost 3 minutes ;-) I enjoyed the conversation in this thread. One thing I read was that learning to use various tools is benefitial. You have more choices of ways to do things and the basics are the same even if a tool does something different from another tool. Gary Jeff Kinz wrote: > On Thu, Sep 09, 2004 at 04:08:35PM -0500, Chris Spencer wrote: > >>Great. Can you point me to the stable easy to install GIMP 2 for >>windows location? >> >>Is it: >>http://www2.arnes.si/~sopjsimo/gimp/stable.html > > > yep! thats it. > > From jkohler2 at earthlink.net Sun Sep 12 01:22:03 2004 From: jkohler2 at earthlink.net (John Kohler) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 18:22:03 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [OS:N:] I want to join this list Message-ID: <32803106.1094952123688.JavaMail.root@bigbird.psp.pas.earthlink.net> -----Original Message----- From: open-source-now-list-request at redhat.com Sent: Sep 11, 2004 9:00 AM To: open-source-now-list at redhat.com Subject: open-source-now-list Digest, Vol 7, Issue 8 Send open-source-now-list mailing list submissions to open-source-now-list at redhat.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to open-source-now-list-request at redhat.com You can reach the person managing the list at open-source-now-list-owner at redhat.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of open-source-now-list digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: GNUwin Re: [OS:N:] GIMP vs. Adobe Photoshop (Gary Frederick) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 05:27:01 -0500 From: Gary Frederick Subject: Re: GNUwin Re: [OS:N:] GIMP vs. Adobe Photoshop To: Open source advocacy in education and government Message-ID: <4142D2F5.8000801 at jsoft.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed I updated GIMP from 2.0.0 to 2.0.4 with the newer gtk+ and the help and animation program to see if it went smooth. So far I have had no problems and I have been using the new version for almost 3 minutes ;-) I enjoyed the conversation in this thread. One thing I read was that learning to use various tools is benefitial. You have more choices of ways to do things and the basics are the same even if a tool does something different from another tool. Gary Jeff Kinz wrote: > On Thu, Sep 09, 2004 at 04:08:35PM -0500, Chris Spencer wrote: > >>Great. Can you point me to the stable easy to install GIMP 2 for >>windows location? >> >>Is it: >>http://www2.arnes.si/~sopjsimo/gimp/stable.html > > > yep! thats it. > > ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ open-source-now-list mailing list open-source-now-list at redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list End of open-source-now-list Digest, Vol 7, Issue 8 ************************************************** From accessys at smart.net Mon Sep 13 16:45:20 2004 From: accessys at smart.net (Access Systems) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 12:45:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [OS:N:] CD Burner glitch. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ok strange problem. Red Hat 9 Yamaha CD Burner.CDRW Memorex CDRW brand new disks I used X-CD-Roast to burn a few jpg for a friend and burner seemed to work fine. after finish I try to read the disk, "No medium found" so I try again...burn another disk, "No Medium found" hmmmm, switch to Gnome toaster, burn another disk, "no Medium found" stuff one of the disks into my laptop, runs perfectly, put in all the others and they all run perfect???? so start checking and any CD burned on this drive will no longer open. (they did in the past) But any CD burned on any other software or machine works fine! well went to a LUG meeting and took one of the disks. on some folks machines they opened and on some others they wouldn't on one machine it opened burner software as though it was a new disk. now I suspect a hardware problem but this really has me baffled, especially why it will open disks burned on some guys windows machine but won't read a disk that was just burned on that drive??? anyone got any thoughts before I go buy a new burner.??? thanks Bob ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ CONFIGURE YOUR E-MAIL TO SEND TEXT ONLY, see http://expita.com/nomime.html +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve Neither liberty nor safety", Benjamin Franklin - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ASCII Ribbon Campaign accessBob NO HTML/PDF/RTF in e-mail accessys at smartnospam.net NO MSWord docs in e-mail Access Systems, engineers NO attachments in e-mail, *LINUX powered* access is a civil right *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# THIS message and any attachments are CONFIDENTIAL and may be privileged. They are intended ONLY for the individual or entity named From mmaxwell at mail.ucf.edu Mon Sep 13 18:12:22 2004 From: mmaxwell at mail.ucf.edu (Marc Maxwell) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:12:22 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] CD Burner glitch. Message-ID: Hi, Tim at linux migration www.linuxmigration.org had a nice tutorial on cd-burning on his site. You might check that out, it has both command line and gui stuff too as I recall. good luck Marc Maxwell Programmer-Analyst Certified Technical Trainer Scheduling Team SDES, Registrar's Office University of Central Florida Orlando, Florida 407.823.0588 >>> accessys at smart.net 9/13/2004 12:45:20 PM >>> ok strange problem. Red Hat 9 Yamaha CD Burner.CDRW Memorex CDRW brand new disks I used X-CD-Roast to burn a few jpg for a friend and burner seemed to work fine. after finish I try to read the disk, "No medium found" so I try again...burn another disk, "No Medium found" hmmmm, switch to Gnome toaster, burn another disk, "no Medium found" stuff one of the disks into my laptop, runs perfectly, put in all the others and they all run perfect???? so start checking and any CD burned on this drive will no longer open. (they did in the past) But any CD burned on any other software or machine works fine! well went to a LUG meeting and took one of the disks. on some folks machines they opened and on some others they wouldn't on one machine it opened burner software as though it was a new disk. now I suspect a hardware problem but this really has me baffled, especially why it will open disks burned on some guys windows machine but won't read a disk that was just burned on that drive??? anyone got any thoughts before I go buy a new burner.??? thanks Bob ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ CONFIGURE YOUR E-MAIL TO SEND TEXT ONLY, see http://expita.com/nomime.html +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve Neither liberty nor safety", Benjamin Franklin - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ASCII Ribbon Campaign accessBob NO HTML/PDF/RTF in e-mail accessys at smartnospam.net NO MSWord docs in e-mail Access Systems, engineers NO attachments in e-mail, *LINUX powered* access is a civil right *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# THIS message and any attachments are CONFIDENTIAL and may be privileged. They are intended ONLY for the individual or entity named _______________________________________________ Subscription and Archive: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ - For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: From accessys at smart.net Mon Sep 13 22:54:47 2004 From: accessys at smart.net (Access Systems) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 18:54:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [OS:N:] CD Burner glitch. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Sep 2004, Marc Maxwell wrote: > Tim at linux migration www.linuxmigration.org had a nice tutorial on "unable to connect to remote host" thanks anyway Bob > cd-burning on his site. You might check that out, it has both command > line and gui stuff too as I recall. > > good luck > > > > Marc Maxwell > Programmer-Analyst > Certified Technical Trainer > Scheduling Team > SDES, Registrar's Office > University of Central Florida > Orlando, Florida > 407.823.0588 > > >>> accessys at smart.net 9/13/2004 12:45:20 PM >>> > > ok strange problem. > Red Hat 9 > Yamaha CD Burner.CDRW > Memorex CDRW brand new disks > > I used X-CD-Roast to burn a few jpg for a friend and burner seemed to > work > fine. > after finish I try to read the disk, "No medium found" > > so I try again...burn another disk, "No Medium found" > > hmmmm, switch to Gnome toaster, burn another disk, "no Medium > found" > > stuff one of the disks into my laptop, runs perfectly, put in all the > others and they all run perfect???? > > so start checking and any CD burned on this drive will no longer open. > (they did in the past) But any CD burned on any other software or > machine > works fine! > > well went to a LUG meeting and took one of the disks. > > on some folks machines they opened and on some others they wouldn't > on one machine it opened burner software as though it was a new disk. > > now I suspect a hardware problem but this really has me baffled, > especially why it will open disks burned on some guys windows machine > but > won't read a disk that was just burned on that drive??? > > anyone got any thoughts before I go buy a new burner.??? > > thanks > Bob > > > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > CONFIGURE YOUR E-MAIL TO SEND TEXT ONLY, see > http://expita.com/nomime.html > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary > safety deserve Neither liberty nor safety", Benjamin Franklin > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > - > ASCII Ribbon Campaign accessBob > NO HTML/PDF/RTF in e-mail > accessys at smartnospam.net > NO MSWord docs in e-mail Access Systems, > engineers > NO attachments in e-mail, *LINUX powered* access is a civil > right > *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# > THIS message and any attachments are CONFIDENTIAL and may be > privileged. They are intended ONLY for the individual or entity named > > > _______________________________________________ > Subscription and Archive: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ > - > For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: > > > > _______________________________________________ > Subscription and Archive: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ > - > For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ CONFIGURE YOUR E-MAIL TO SEND TEXT ONLY, see http://expita.com/nomime.html +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve Neither liberty nor safety", Benjamin Franklin - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ASCII Ribbon Campaign accessBob NO HTML/PDF/RTF in e-mail accessys at smartnospam.net NO MSWord docs in e-mail Access Systems, engineers NO attachments in e-mail, *LINUX powered* access is a civil right *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# THIS message and any attachments are CONFIDENTIAL and may be privileged. They are intended ONLY for the individual or entity named From accessys at smart.net Mon Sep 13 23:04:30 2004 From: accessys at smart.net (Access Systems) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 19:04:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [OS:N:] CD Burner glitch. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Sep 2004, Marc Maxwell wrote: > Tim at linux migration www.linuxmigration.org had a nice tutorial on > cd-burning on his site. You might check that out, it has both command > line and gui stuff too as I recall. well that is the problem, I don't have a problem burning the CD, it is a problem reading the CD that is burned, only some computers even see the CD, the ones that do display the contents do it perfectly Bob > >>> accessys at smart.net 9/13/2004 12:45:20 PM >>> > > ok strange problem. > Red Hat 9 > Yamaha CD Burner.CDRW > Memorex CDRW brand new disks > > I used X-CD-Roast to burn a few jpg for a friend and burner seemed to > work > fine. > after finish I try to read the disk, "No medium found" > > so I try again...burn another disk, "No Medium found" > > hmmmm, switch to Gnome toaster, burn another disk, "no Medium > found" > > stuff one of the disks into my laptop, runs perfectly, put in all the > others and they all run perfect???? > > so start checking and any CD burned on this drive will no longer open. > (they did in the past) But any CD burned on any other software or > machine > works fine! > > well went to a LUG meeting and took one of the disks. > > on some folks machines they opened and on some others they wouldn't > on one machine it opened burner software as though it was a new disk. > > now I suspect a hardware problem but this really has me baffled, > especially why it will open disks burned on some guys windows machine > but > won't read a disk that was just burned on that drive??? > > anyone got any thoughts before I go buy a new burner.??? > > thanks > Bob > > > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > CONFIGURE YOUR E-MAIL TO SEND TEXT ONLY, see > http://expita.com/nomime.html > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary > safety deserve Neither liberty nor safety", Benjamin Franklin > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > - > ASCII Ribbon Campaign accessBob > NO HTML/PDF/RTF in e-mail > accessys at smartnospam.net > NO MSWord docs in e-mail Access Systems, > engineers > NO attachments in e-mail, *LINUX powered* access is a civil > right > *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# > THIS message and any attachments are CONFIDENTIAL and may be > privileged. They are intended ONLY for the individual or entity named > > > _______________________________________________ > Subscription and Archive: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ > - > For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: > > > > _______________________________________________ > Subscription and Archive: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ > - > For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ CONFIGURE YOUR E-MAIL TO SEND TEXT ONLY, see http://expita.com/nomime.html +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve Neither liberty nor safety", Benjamin Franklin - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ASCII Ribbon Campaign accessBob NO HTML/PDF/RTF in e-mail accessys at smartnospam.net NO MSWord docs in e-mail Access Systems, engineers NO attachments in e-mail, *LINUX powered* access is a civil right *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# THIS message and any attachments are CONFIDENTIAL and may be privileged. They are intended ONLY for the individual or entity named From jay at scherrer.com Mon Sep 13 23:11:51 2004 From: jay at scherrer.com (Jay Scherrer) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:11:51 -0700 Subject: [OS:N:] CD Burner glitch. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200409131611.51774.jay@scherrer.com> What ISO version did you use to burn the cd? [DAO, TAO,or RAW] Was there any hint with the log as the disk was burned? Jay On Monday 13 September 2004 04:04 pm, Access Systems wrote: > On Mon, 13 Sep 2004, Marc Maxwell wrote: > > Tim at linux migration www.linuxmigration.org had a nice tutorial on > > cd-burning on his site. You might check that out, it has both command > > line and gui stuff too as I recall. > > well that is the problem, I don't have a problem burning the CD, it is a > problem reading the CD that is burned, only some computers even see the > CD, the ones that do display the contents do it perfectly > > > Bob > > > >>> accessys at smart.net 9/13/2004 12:45:20 PM >>> > > > > ok strange problem. > > Red Hat 9 > > Yamaha CD Burner.CDRW > > Memorex CDRW brand new disks > > > > I used X-CD-Roast to burn a few jpg for a friend and burner seemed to > > work > > fine. > > after finish I try to read the disk, "No medium found" > > > > so I try again...burn another disk, "No Medium found" > > > > hmmmm, switch to Gnome toaster, burn another disk, "no Medium > > found" > > > > stuff one of the disks into my laptop, runs perfectly, put in all the > > others and they all run perfect???? > > > > so start checking and any CD burned on this drive will no longer open. > > (they did in the past) But any CD burned on any other software or > > machine > > works fine! > > > > well went to a LUG meeting and took one of the disks. > > > > on some folks machines they opened and on some others they wouldn't > > on one machine it opened burner software as though it was a new disk. > > > > now I suspect a hardware problem but this really has me baffled, > > especially why it will open disks burned on some guys windows machine > > but > > won't read a disk that was just burned on that drive??? > > > > anyone got any thoughts before I go buy a new burner.??? > > > > thanks > > Bob > > > > > > > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > CONFIGURE YOUR E-MAIL TO SEND TEXT ONLY, see > > http://expita.com/nomime.html > > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > > "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary > > safety deserve Neither liberty nor safety", Benjamin Franklin > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > > - > > ASCII Ribbon Campaign accessBob > > NO HTML/PDF/RTF in e-mail > > accessys at smartnospam.net > > NO MSWord docs in e-mail Access Systems, > > engineers > > NO attachments in e-mail, *LINUX powered* access is a civil > > right > > *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#* > >#*#*# THIS message and any attachments are CONFIDENTIAL and may be > > privileged. They are intended ONLY for the individual or entity named > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Subscription and Archive: > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ > > - > > For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Subscription and Archive: > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ - > > For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: > > > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > CONFIGURE YOUR E-MAIL TO SEND TEXT ONLY, see http://expita.com/nomime.html > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary > safety deserve Neither liberty nor safety", Benjamin Franklin > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > ASCII Ribbon Campaign accessBob > NO HTML/PDF/RTF in e-mail accessys at smartnospam.net > NO MSWord docs in e-mail Access Systems, engineers > NO attachments in e-mail, *LINUX powered* access is a civil right > *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#* >#*# THIS message and any attachments are CONFIDENTIAL and may be > privileged. They are intended ONLY for the individual or entity named > > > _______________________________________________ > Subscription and Archive: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ - > For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: > From johnnie123 at sbcglobal.net Tue Sep 14 04:22:44 2004 From: johnnie123 at sbcglobal.net (Johnnie Peters) Date: 13 Sep 2004 21:22:44 -0700 Subject: [OS:N:] CD Burner glitch. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1095135764.2943.11.camel@obelix> I have had this problem on a CD burner before that I had used a great deal. I suspect that over time the laser no longer created as strong an image as it had in the past. If the image is a bit weak then some CD drivers may read it fine while other fail to read it at all. I have only seen this with one CD burner. I have seen this a lot with tape drives in the past. The old 80 and 160 megabyte cartridge tapes (late 80s timeframe) were notorious for this. Johnnie On Mon, 2004-09-13 at 09:45, Access Systems wrote: > ok strange problem. > Red Hat 9 > Yamaha CD Burner.CDRW > Memorex CDRW brand new disks > > I used X-CD-Roast to burn a few jpg for a friend and burner seemed to work > fine. > after finish I try to read the disk, "No medium found" > > so I try again...burn another disk, "No Medium found" > > hmmmm, switch to Gnome toaster, burn another disk, "no Medium found" > > stuff one of the disks into my laptop, runs perfectly, put in all the > others and they all run perfect???? > > so start checking and any CD burned on this drive will no longer open. > (they did in the past) But any CD burned on any other software or machine > works fine! > > well went to a LUG meeting and took one of the disks. > > on some folks machines they opened and on some others they wouldn't > on one machine it opened burner software as though it was a new disk. > > now I suspect a hardware problem but this really has me baffled, > especially why it will open disks burned on some guys windows machine but > won't read a disk that was just burned on that drive??? > > anyone got any thoughts before I go buy a new burner.??? > > thanks > Bob > > > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > CONFIGURE YOUR E-MAIL TO SEND TEXT ONLY, see http://expita.com/nomime.html > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary > safety deserve Neither liberty nor safety", Benjamin Franklin > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > ASCII Ribbon Campaign accessBob > NO HTML/PDF/RTF in e-mail accessys at smartnospam.net > NO MSWord docs in e-mail Access Systems, engineers > NO attachments in e-mail, *LINUX powered* access is a civil right > *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# > THIS message and any attachments are CONFIDENTIAL and may be > privileged. They are intended ONLY for the individual or entity named > > > _______________________________________________ > Subscription and Archive: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ > - > For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: > > From accessys at smart.net Tue Sep 14 20:54:04 2004 From: accessys at smart.net (Access Systems) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 16:54:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [OS:N:] CD Burner glitch. In-Reply-To: <1095135764.2943.11.camel@obelix> References: <1095135764.2943.11.camel@obelix> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Sep 2004, Johnnie Peters wrote: > I have had this problem on a CD burner before that I had used a great > deal. I suspect that over time the laser no longer created as strong an > image as it had in the past. If the image is a bit weak then some CD > drivers may read it fine while other fail to read it at all. I'm not a heavy user by any means, maybe one or two disks a week max. but I have had the burner for about 2 years, figured it almost had to be a hardware problem. guess when I get a new burner I will need to reburn them any suggestions as to a new internal burner, > I have only seen this with one CD burner. I have seen this a lot with > tape drives in the past. The old 80 and 160 megabyte cartridge tapes > (late 80s timeframe) were notorious for this. yeah one of the reasons I gave up on tape backups thanks Bob ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ CONFIGURE YOUR E-MAIL TO SEND TEXT ONLY, see http://expita.com/nomime.html +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve Neither liberty nor safety", Benjamin Franklin - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ASCII Ribbon Campaign accessBob NO HTML/PDF/RTF in e-mail accessys at smartnospam.net NO MSWord docs in e-mail Access Systems, engineers NO attachments in e-mail, *LINUX powered* access is a civil right *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# THIS message and any attachments are CONFIDENTIAL and may be privileged. They are intended ONLY for the individual or entity named From chris at forevergalleries.com Tue Sep 14 21:28:48 2004 From: chris at forevergalleries.com (Chris Spencer) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 16:28:48 -0500 Subject: [OS:N:] CD Burner glitch. In-Reply-To: References: <1095135764.2943.11.camel@obelix> Message-ID: <1095197327.30624.80.camel@cspencer> I disagree with the diagnostic. I would put my money on the brand of CD's. On Tue, 2004-09-14 at 15:54, Access Systems wrote: > On Tue, 13 Sep 2004, Johnnie Peters wrote: > > > I have had this problem on a CD burner before that I had used a great > > deal. I suspect that over time the laser no longer created as strong an > > image as it had in the past. If the image is a bit weak then some CD > > drivers may read it fine while other fail to read it at all. > > I'm not a heavy user by any means, maybe one or two disks a week max. but > I have had the burner for about 2 years, figured it almost had to be a > hardware problem. > guess when I get a new burner I will need to reburn them > > any suggestions as to a new internal burner, > > > I have only seen this with one CD burner. I have seen this a lot with > > tape drives in the past. The old 80 and 160 megabyte cartridge tapes > > (late 80s timeframe) were notorious for this. > > yeah one of the reasons I gave up on tape backups > > thanks > Bob > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > CONFIGURE YOUR E-MAIL TO SEND TEXT ONLY, see http://expita.com/nomime.html > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary > safety deserve Neither liberty nor safety", Benjamin Franklin > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > ASCII Ribbon Campaign accessBob > NO HTML/PDF/RTF in e-mail accessys at smartnospam.net > NO MSWord docs in e-mail Access Systems, engineers > NO attachments in e-mail, *LINUX powered* access is a civil right > *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# > THIS message and any attachments are CONFIDENTIAL and may be > privileged. They are intended ONLY for the individual or entity named > > > _______________________________________________ > Subscription and Archive: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ > - > For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: > "As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware of change in the air, however slight, lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness." - Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas From accessys at smart.net Tue Sep 14 21:27:35 2004 From: accessys at smart.net (Access Systems) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 17:27:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [OS:N:] CD Burner glitch. In-Reply-To: <1095197327.30624.80.camel@cspencer> References: <1095135764.2943.11.camel@obelix> <1095197327.30624.80.camel@cspencer> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Sep 2004, Chris Spencer wrote: > I disagree with the diagnostic. I would put my money on the brand of > CD's. 2 different brands and purchased couple different times and places. and ones I could read couple weeks ago I can no longer read Bob > > > > On Tue, 2004-09-14 at 15:54, Access Systems wrote: > > On Tue, 13 Sep 2004, Johnnie Peters wrote: > > > > > I have had this problem on a CD burner before that I had used a great > > > deal. I suspect that over time the laser no longer created as strong an > > > image as it had in the past. If the image is a bit weak then some CD > > > drivers may read it fine while other fail to read it at all. > > > > I'm not a heavy user by any means, maybe one or two disks a week max. but > > I have had the burner for about 2 years, figured it almost had to be a > > hardware problem. > > guess when I get a new burner I will need to reburn them > > > > any suggestions as to a new internal burner, > > > > > I have only seen this with one CD burner. I have seen this a lot with > > > tape drives in the past. The old 80 and 160 megabyte cartridge tapes > > > (late 80s timeframe) were notorious for this. > > > > yeah one of the reasons I gave up on tape backups > > > > thanks > > Bob > > > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > CONFIGURE YOUR E-MAIL TO SEND TEXT ONLY, see http://expita.com/nomime.html > > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > > "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary > > safety deserve Neither liberty nor safety", Benjamin Franklin > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > > ASCII Ribbon Campaign accessBob > > NO HTML/PDF/RTF in e-mail accessys at smartnospam.net > > NO MSWord docs in e-mail Access Systems, engineers > > NO attachments in e-mail, *LINUX powered* access is a civil right > > *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# > > THIS message and any attachments are CONFIDENTIAL and may be > > privileged. They are intended ONLY for the individual or entity named > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Subscription and Archive: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ > > - > > For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: > > > "As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both > instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly > unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware of > change in the air, however slight, lest we become unwitting victims of > the darkness." - Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas > > > _______________________________________________ > Subscription and Archive: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ > - > For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ CONFIGURE YOUR E-MAIL TO SEND TEXT ONLY, see http://expita.com/nomime.html +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve Neither liberty nor safety", Benjamin Franklin - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ASCII Ribbon Campaign accessBob NO HTML/PDF/RTF in e-mail accessys at smartnospam.net NO MSWord docs in e-mail Access Systems, engineers NO attachments in e-mail, *LINUX powered* access is a civil right *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# THIS message and any attachments are CONFIDENTIAL and may be privileged. They are intended ONLY for the individual or entity named From jay at scherrer.com Tue Sep 14 21:28:36 2004 From: jay at scherrer.com (Jay Scherrer) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 14:28:36 -0700 Subject: [OS:N:] CD Burner glitch. In-Reply-To: References: <1095135764.2943.11.camel@obelix> Message-ID: <200409141428.36377.jay@scherrer.com> With DVD burners so cheap why stop with CD's? My Emprex has been chugging just great. And BenQ has some good deals also. You will need to copy the Pro-DVD key into the set up in order to burn DVD's though. Jay On Tuesday 14 September 2004 01:54 pm, Access Systems wrote: > On Tue, 13 Sep 2004, Johnnie Peters wrote: > > I have had this problem on a CD burner before that I had used a great > > deal. I suspect that over time the laser no longer created as strong an > > image as it had in the past. If the image is a bit weak then some CD > > drivers may read it fine while other fail to read it at all. > > I'm not a heavy user by any means, maybe one or two disks a week max. but > I have had the burner for about 2 years, figured it almost had to be a > hardware problem. > guess when I get a new burner I will need to reburn them > > any suggestions as to a new internal burner, > > > I have only seen this with one CD burner. I have seen this a lot with > > tape drives in the past. The old 80 and 160 megabyte cartridge tapes > > (late 80s timeframe) were notorious for this. > > yeah one of the reasons I gave up on tape backups > > thanks > Bob > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > CONFIGURE YOUR E-MAIL TO SEND TEXT ONLY, see http://expita.com/nomime.html > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary > safety deserve Neither liberty nor safety", Benjamin Franklin > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > ASCII Ribbon Campaign accessBob > NO HTML/PDF/RTF in e-mail accessys at smartnospam.net > NO MSWord docs in e-mail Access Systems, engineers > NO attachments in e-mail, *LINUX powered* access is a civil right > *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#* >#*# THIS message and any attachments are CONFIDENTIAL and may be > privileged. They are intended ONLY for the individual or entity named > > > _______________________________________________ > Subscription and Archive: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ - > For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: > From mattfrye at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 20:45:41 2004 From: mattfrye at gmail.com (Matt Frye) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 16:45:41 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] Linux, Vtund, and speakfreely saved the day In-Reply-To: <4147B521.3060300@blach.dnsalias.org> References: <4147B521.3060300@blach.dnsalias.org> Message-ID: <7f1eacdd04091513456e871a10@mail.gmail.com> Here is a story from my local LUG mailing list. I think it says a lot about how we should view and use Linux and Open Source _outside_ the office/data center. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Ralph Blach Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 23:21:05 -0400 Subject: [TriLUG] Linux, Vtund, and speakfreely saved the day To: Triangle Linux Users Group discussion list Well, I love linux. This help me make arrangements for my son to evacuate from the path of Hurricane Ivan very efficently. Here the story. My son goes to St Stanislaus, in Bay St. Louis,Ms and he has a linux machine with speakfreely and vtund. We use vtund to keep a tunnel up between our two machines so that we can use speak freely. Well, when it was late, and I need to contact him. I telneted to his machine through the tunnel, and started the speak freely speaker application. I then started up the speakfreely sfmike on my machine and was able to get his attention He then made his taxi reservations to get to the airport I love linux. Chip -- Triangle Linux Users Group : http://www.trilug.org/ TriLUG mailing list : http://www.trilug.org/mailman/listinfo/trilug TriLUG Organizational FAQ : http://trilug.org/faq/ From johnnie123 at sbcglobal.net Sat Sep 18 04:53:50 2004 From: johnnie123 at sbcglobal.net (Johnnie Peters) Date: 17 Sep 2004 21:53:50 -0700 Subject: [OS:N:] CD Burner glitch. In-Reply-To: <1095197327.30624.80.camel@cspencer> References: <1095135764.2943.11.camel@obelix> <1095197327.30624.80.camel@cspencer> Message-ID: <1095483229.2943.14.camel@obelix> On Tue, 2004-09-14 at 14:28, Chris Spencer wrote: > I disagree with the diagnostic. I would put my money on the brand of > CD's. I have had differing experiences with various brands of CDs. This is of course the easy thing to try first. Did not help me that time. Johnnie > > > > On Tue, 2004-09-14 at 15:54, Access Systems wrote: > > On Tue, 13 Sep 2004, Johnnie Peters wrote: > > > > > I have had this problem on a CD burner before that I had used a great > > > deal. I suspect that over time the laser no longer created as strong an > > > image as it had in the past. If the image is a bit weak then some CD > > > drivers may read it fine while other fail to read it at all. > > > > I'm not a heavy user by any means, maybe one or two disks a week max. but > > I have had the burner for about 2 years, figured it almost had to be a > > hardware problem. > > guess when I get a new burner I will need to reburn them > > > > any suggestions as to a new internal burner, > > > > > I have only seen this with one CD burner. I have seen this a lot with > > > tape drives in the past. The old 80 and 160 megabyte cartridge tapes > > > (late 80s timeframe) were notorious for this. > > > > yeah one of the reasons I gave up on tape backups > > > > thanks > > Bob > > > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > CONFIGURE YOUR E-MAIL TO SEND TEXT ONLY, see http://expita.com/nomime.html > > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > > "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary > > safety deserve Neither liberty nor safety", Benjamin Franklin > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > > ASCII Ribbon Campaign accessBob > > NO HTML/PDF/RTF in e-mail accessys at smartnospam.net > > NO MSWord docs in e-mail Access Systems, engineers > > NO attachments in e-mail, *LINUX powered* access is a civil right > > *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# > > THIS message and any attachments are CONFIDENTIAL and may be > > privileged. They are intended ONLY for the individual or entity named > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Subscription and Archive: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ > > - > > For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: > > > "As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both > instances, there is a twilight when everything remains seemingly > unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all must be most aware of > change in the air, however slight, lest we become unwitting victims of > the darkness." - Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas > > > _______________________________________________ > Subscription and Archive: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ > - > For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: > From cmacd at achilles.net Mon Sep 20 16:32:31 2004 From: cmacd at achilles.net (Charles MacDonald) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 12:32:31 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] For reference http://www.go-opensource.co.za/ Message-ID: <414F061F.4020905@achilles.net> http://www.go-opensource.co.za/ This is a group in South Africa that is mailing out free/gratis copies of "the Open CD" http://theopencd.sunsite.dk/programs-v1.4/ to windows users in that country.. Gee I wonder if HP would sponsor that In North America -- Charles MacDonald Stittsville Ontario cmacd at achilles.net Just Beyond the Fringe http://home.achilles.net/~cmacd/ No Microsoft Products were used in sending this e-mail. From bortvern at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 17:16:59 2004 From: bortvern at gmail.com (Bort Vern) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 13:16:59 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] For reference http://www.go-opensource.co.za/ In-Reply-To: <414F061F.4020905@achilles.net> References: <414F061F.4020905@achilles.net> Message-ID: Charles, I would consider helping to find money to fund such a project to provide limited copies of the "Open CD" in the US, but I would tend to believe that the money could be better spent elsewhere as all of the software is available for download and network connections in the United States are more ubiquitous here (not completely, but better than South Africa). -David W. Taylor _____________________ Serablue Inc., Nonprofit http://www.serablue.com On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 12:32:31 -0400, Charles MacDonald wrote: > http://www.go-opensource.co.za/ > > This is a group in South Africa that is mailing out free/gratis copies > of "the Open CD" http://theopencd.sunsite.dk/programs-v1.4/ to windows > users in that country.. > > Gee I wonder if HP would sponsor that In North America > > -- > Charles MacDonald Stittsville Ontario > cmacd at achilles.net Just Beyond the Fringe > http://home.achilles.net/~cmacd/ > No Microsoft Products were used in sending this e-mail. > > _______________________________________________ > Subscription and Archive: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ > - > For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: > > From kjcole at gri.gallaudet.edu Mon Sep 20 17:23:56 2004 From: kjcole at gri.gallaudet.edu (Kevin Cole) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 13:23:56 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] For reference http://www.go-opensource.co.za/ In-Reply-To: References: <414F061F.4020905@achilles.net> Message-ID: <20040920172356.GA30027@gri.gallaudet.edu> On Mon, Sep 20, 2004 at 01:16:59PM -0400, Bort Vern wrote: > I would consider helping to find money to fund such a project to > provide limited copies of the "Open CD" in the US, but I would tend > to believe that the money could be better spent elsewhere as all of > the software is available for download and network connections in > the United States are more ubiquitous here (not completely, but > better than South Africa). The problem, it seems to me, is that a lot of vaguely curious people aren't willing to make even the effort required to download stuff -- often because they aren't confident that they would be able do it correctly, or because they've heard all sorts of horror stories about downloading viruses, etc -- whereas if you hand them a halfway decent-looking CD, they'll at least pop it into their machines and have a look. They've figured out CD's, and are less suspicious (rightly or not) of infection from such sources. -- Kevin Cole | Key ID: 0xE6F332C7 Gallaudet University | WWW: http://gri.gallaudet.edu/~kjcole/ Hall Memorial Bldg S-419 | V/TTY: (202) 651-5135 Washington, D.C. 20002-3695 | FAX: (202) 651-5746 "Using vi is not a sin. It's a penance." -- St. IGNUcious, Church of Emacs From cmacd at ACHILLES.net Mon Sep 20 17:21:53 2004 From: cmacd at ACHILLES.net (Charles MacDonald) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 13:21:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [OS:N:] For reference http://www.go-opensource.co.za/ In-Reply-To: References: <414F061F.4020905@achilles.net> Message-ID: <33312.209.151.7.144.1095700913.squirrel@webmail.achilles.net> Bort Vern said: > Charles, > > I would consider helping to find money to fund such a project to > provide limited copies of the "Open CD" in the US, but I would tend to > believe that the money could be better spent elsewhere as all of the > software is available for download and network connections in the > United States are more ubiquitous here (not completely, but better than > South Africa). While I can agree that the wholesale distribution of many disks would not be cost effective, I do wonder if the slective distribution might fit into some situations, like lobbying political folks, educating CIO and the like, and particularly in educational settings. Last year some friends and I made about 200 CD's by hand to give out at the GTEC conference here in Ottawa, http://www.gtecweek.com/ which is aimed at the IT crowd in Government. We used the GNUwin distribution because it is multi-lingulal, and here in Canada the Governement can't use stuff unless it is available in both english and French. -- Charles MacDonald Stittsville Ontario cmacd at achilles.net Just Beyond the Fringe http://home.achilles.net/~cmacd/ No Microsoft Products were used in sending this e-mail. From anil at acrossworld.com Mon Sep 20 17:35:16 2004 From: anil at acrossworld.com (Anil Srivastava) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 10:35:16 -0700 Subject: [OS:N:] For reference http://www.go-opensource.co.za/ In-Reply-To: <20040920172356.GA30027@gri.gallaudet.edu> References: <414F061F.4020905@achilles.net> <20040920172356.GA30027@gri.gallaudet.edu> Message-ID: <6F237D49-0B2B-11D9-B3B9-0030656E8E9C@acrossworld.com> There is another aspect of the problem to be considered when it comes down to downloading in developing countries. People cannot depend on the connection and download being interrupted and having to start all over again, therefore, the availability of the basic OS software would be a convenience across the world. An idea comes to my mind. A consensus amongst all of us on what is the basic open source software that should be put on a CD. Then an image being created and made available. Institutions (including companies) could then download the image, burn CDs with their labels, and that being made available through nonprofit institutions in developing countries free of cost. Anil Srivastava AcrossWorld Communications, Inc. 1601 Civic Center Drive Santa Clara, California 95050-4109, USA www.acrossworld.com +1 408 306 1119 mobile +1 408 716 2487 eFax anil at acrossworld.com On Sep 20, 2004, at 10:23 AM, Kevin Cole wrote: > On Mon, Sep 20, 2004 at 01:16:59PM -0400, Bort Vern wrote: > >> I would consider helping to find money to fund such a project to >> provide limited copies of the "Open CD" in the US, but I would tend >> to believe that the money could be better spent elsewhere as all of >> the software is available for download and network connections in >> the United States are more ubiquitous here (not completely, but >> better than South Africa). > > The problem, it seems to me, is that a lot of vaguely curious people > aren't willing to make even the effort required to download stuff -- > often because they aren't confident that they would be able do it > correctly, or because they've heard all sorts of horror stories about > downloading viruses, etc -- whereas if you hand them a halfway > decent-looking CD, they'll at least pop it into their machines and > have a look. They've figured out CD's, and are less suspicious > (rightly or not) of infection from such sources. > > -- > Kevin Cole | Key ID: 0xE6F332C7 > Gallaudet University | WWW: > http://gri.gallaudet.edu/~kjcole/ > Hall Memorial Bldg S-419 | V/TTY: (202) 651-5135 > Washington, D.C. 20002-3695 | FAX: (202) 651-5746 > > "Using vi is not a sin. It's a penance." -- St. IGNUcious, Church of > Emacs > > > _______________________________________________ > Subscription and Archive: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ > - > For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: > > From kjcole at gri.gallaudet.edu Mon Sep 20 17:49:42 2004 From: kjcole at gri.gallaudet.edu (Kevin Cole) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 13:49:42 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] For reference http://www.go-opensource.co.za/ In-Reply-To: <6F237D49-0B2B-11D9-B3B9-0030656E8E9C@acrossworld.com> References: <414F061F.4020905@achilles.net> <20040920172356.GA30027@gri.gallaudet.edu> <6F237D49-0B2B-11D9-B3B9-0030656E8E9C@acrossworld.com> Message-ID: <20040920174942.GA30202@gri.gallaudet.edu> On Mon, Sep 20, 2004 at 10:35:16AM -0700, Anil Srivastava wrote: > An idea comes to my mind. A consensus amongst all of us on what is > the basic open source software that should be put on a CD. Then an > image being created and made available. Institutions (including > companies) could then download the image, burn CDs with their > labels, and that being made available through nonprofit institutions > in developing countries free of cost. The GNUwin II project, recently mentioned (about two minutes ago) by Mr. MacDonald of the Great White North, is an excellent collection, IMHO. Also, I've mentioned this before, but for any newcomers here: Consider the links on: http://pchb1f.gallaudet.edu/tricki/ as one starting point (of potentially many) for compiling such a list. Particularly, look at links on the LEG-UP CD Project page there. -- Kevin Cole | Key ID: 0xE6F332C7 Gallaudet University | WWW: http://gri.gallaudet.edu/~kjcole/ Hall Memorial Bldg S-419 | V/TTY: (202) 651-5135 Washington, D.C. 20002-3695 | FAX: (202) 651-5746 "Using vi is not a sin. It's a penance." -- St. IGNUcious, Church of Emacs From mfioretti at mclink.it Mon Sep 20 18:04:55 2004 From: mfioretti at mclink.it (M. Fioretti) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 20:04:55 +0200 Subject: [OS:N:] For reference http://www.go-opensource.co.za/ In-Reply-To: <6F237D49-0B2B-11D9-B3B9-0030656E8E9C@acrossworld.com> References: <414F061F.4020905@achilles.net> <20040920172356.GA30027@gri.gallaudet.edu> <6F237D49-0B2B-11D9-B3B9-0030656E8E9C@acrossworld.com> Message-ID: <20040920180455.GE2852@mclink.it> On Mon, Sep 20, 2004 10:35:16 AM -0700, Anil Srivastava (anil at acrossworld.com) wrote: > There is another aspect of the problem to be considered when it > comes down to downloading in developing countries. People cannot > depend on the connection and download being interrupted and having > to start all over again, therefore, the availability of the basic OS > software would be a convenience across the world. > > An idea comes to my mind. A consensus amongst all of us on what is > the basic open source software that should be put on a CD. Hmmm... if you wait until people agree on what are the best 700 MB of OS software, you'll grow reaaaaaaaaaaaally old, I'm afraid! Said this, I'd like to remember to all list members the existence of the RULE project (see signature) and of its byproduct directly related to this. After reading the home page, please go to: http://www.rule-project.org/article.php3?id_article=1 It can distribute different CDs, just ask. Or join it, if you feel like it. HTH, Marco F. -- Marco Fioretti mfioretti, at the server mclink.it Red Hat & Fedora for low memory http://www.rule-project.org/ May your future be limited only by your dreams. Christa McAuliffe From rwcitek at alum.calberkeley.org Mon Sep 20 21:34:26 2004 From: rwcitek at alum.calberkeley.org (Robert Citek) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 16:34:26 -0500 Subject: [OS:N:] For reference http://www.go-opensource.co.za/ In-Reply-To: <6F237D49-0B2B-11D9-B3B9-0030656E8E9C@acrossworld.com> Message-ID: On Monday, Sep 20, 2004, at 12:35 US/Central, Anil Srivastava wrote: > There is another aspect of the problem to be considered when it comes > down to downloading in developing countries. People cannot depend on > the connection and download being interrupted and having to start all > over again, therefore, the availability of the basic OS software would > be a convenience across the world. BitTorrent ( http://bittorrent.com/ ) handles issues of poor or dropped connections quite nicely. Not only does it distribute the server load to all clients, but it also knows how to resume if the connection is dropped. These properties and others make BT ideal for distributing large files, such as ISO images or DVD images. > An idea comes to my mind. A consensus amongst all of us on what is the > basic open source software that should be put on a CD. Then an image > being created and made available. Institutions (including companies) > could then download the image, burn CDs with their labels, and that > being made available through nonprofit institutions in developing > countries free of cost. That's a nice idea, except that it brings up the questions of what should be included and what should be left behind. Why not take that idea a step further: have a list of possible software from which people can choose. Once they choose their list, a server packages it up into an ISO/DVD image. You can even have pre-built ISOs/DVDs ready to go with the most popular items. I'm thinking of a model similar to a pizza restaurant where you have a dozen or so pre-made pizzas ("The Hawaiian", "Slaughterhouse 5", "Veggie", etc.) and also where you can make your own ("cheese plus choose any 5 toppings from this list"). The question then becomes who maintains the database with copies of (or links to) the latest binaries, source, and documentation? BTW, GnuWinII has such a database which is maintained by volunteers from around the world: http://gnuwin.epfl.ch/ What they don't have (at least from what I can tell) is the method of creating custom ISOs/DVDs for users. Regards, - Robert http://www.cwelug.org From sampln at sbcglobal.net Mon Sep 20 23:56:51 2004 From: sampln at sbcglobal.net (Lincoln Peters) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 16:56:51 -0700 Subject: [OS:N:] For reference http://www.go-opensource.co.za/ In-Reply-To: <20040920180455.GE2852@mclink.it> References: <414F061F.4020905@achilles.net> <20040920172356.GA30027@gri.gallaudet.edu> <6F237D49-0B2B-11D9-B3B9-0030656E8E9C@acrossworld.com> <20040920180455.GE2852@mclink.it> Message-ID: <1095724610.15989.36883.camel@localhost> On Mon, 2004-09-20 at 11:04, M. Fioretti wrote: > Hmmm... if you wait until people agree on what are the best 700 MB of > OS software, you'll grow reaaaaaaaaaaaally old, I'm afraid! I seem to recall that the Debian project has been trying to resolve this issue (or one that is very similar) with an automated popularity contest. If you install the "popularity-contest" package on a box running Debian/sarge or later, your computer will report to the Debian project which packages you have installed. They use that information to decide which of the 13+ CD-ROM's to place individual packages on (the most popular packages go on Disc 1, the least popular on Disc 13). It might be possible to do something similar with open-source educational software, although I'm not sure how. I imagine that you could get started by using the data that the Debian project has already collected and narrowing it down to educational software and a handful of productivity applications (word processors, spreadsheets, et al.). --- Lincoln Peters Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what value there may be in owning a piece thereof. -- National Lampoon, "Deteriorata" From lawbieb at myrealbox.com Mon Sep 27 17:42:43 2004 From: lawbieb at myrealbox.com (Bieber) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 13:42:43 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] Jeremy Hogan, Please contact me Message-ID: <1096306963.d64a1fdclawbieb@myrealbox.com> Jeremy, I am not sure my mail sent directly to you is getting through. Please contact me at lawbieb at myrealbox.com or bieber at law.emory.edu Thanks Harold From nbs at sonic.net Tue Sep 28 18:54:53 2004 From: nbs at sonic.net (Bill Kendrick) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 11:54:53 -0700 Subject: [OS:N:] [OT] Open Source recommendation of California Performance Review Message-ID: <20040928185453.GB20867@sonic.net> Members from the Linux Users' Group of Davis (near Sacramento) attended yesterday's 'California Performance Review' [1] hearing at UC Davis, and submitted a comment card and written comments in favor of recommendation SO10 of CPR, entitled: "Explore Open Source Alternatives." [2] LUGOD's Henry House was the last speaker at the very end of the hearing, and has posted his summary of the event to LUGOD's 'vox-outreach' mailing list: http://lists.lugod.org/pipermail/vox-outreach/2004-September/001048.html Here's the interesting part: "I was the very last speaker and all I got to say was: 'I am representing the Linux Users' Group of Davis, reresenting over 200 open-source-software users in Davis. We strongly support recommendation SO10 in the CPR report. Using open-source software can save the State a lot of money.' "To our great surprise, several members of the CPR staff came up to us after I spoke and thanked us for voicing our support for the OSS recommendation. They said that it is one of the most controversial recommendations in the entire report. They collected a copy of my 3-minute speech that I was not able to deliver and encouraged me and LUGOD to submit detailed written comments using their website. They also mentioned that they built their web comment-taking system using open-source software." Testimony and feedback on the CRP commission hearings can be submitted online via an email form, or by uploaded a PDF, but only until this Thursday, September 30th: http://cpr.ca.gov/feedback For the Californians out here, please consider taking a moment to read over SO10 and provide your feedback! -bill! pr at lugod.org http://www.lugod.org/ Linux Users' Group of Davis [1] California Performance Review: http://www.cpr.ca.gov/ [2] SO10: Explore Open Source Alternatives http://www.report.cpr.ca.gov/cprrpt/issrec/stops/it/so10.htm