From jay at scherrer.com Thu Apr 28 23:05:10 2005 From: jay at scherrer.com (Jay Scherrer) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 16:05:10 -0700 Subject: [OS:N:] Seniors and open source Message-ID: <1114729510.4794.17.camel@gimly> Hello, I was on this list awhile back, and wanted to see how we have progressed. I am asking for some help on planning an open sourced introductory class mainly for Seniors but open to all interested. Are there any suggested sample syllabuses available from the list? I am probably going to use the Open CD project for the classroom material because we do have access to several Microsoft machines. But I haven't quite taught a class before, let a lone to Seniors. The director warned me that most of the Seniors are not very computer savvy. So any idea's will be appreciated. Thanks, Jay Scherrer From rwcitek at alum.calberkeley.org Thu Apr 28 23:31:03 2005 From: rwcitek at alum.calberkeley.org (Robert Citek) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 18:31:03 -0500 Subject: [OS:N:] Seniors and open source In-Reply-To: <1114729510.4794.17.camel@gimly> Message-ID: <96129852-B83D-11D9-B6BB-000A95880F88@alum.calberkeley.org> On Thursday, Apr 28, 2005, at 18:05 US/Central, Jay Scherrer wrote: > Are there any suggested sample syllabuses available from the list? I > am probably going to use > the Open CD project for the classroom > material because we do have access to several Microsoft machines. But I > haven't quite taught a class before, let a lone to Seniors. The > director > warned me that most of the Seniors are not very computer savvy. So any > idea's will be appreciated. Ask them, what do they do in the course of their daily lives? Then show them how they can accomplish the same things using a computer. Some guesses: - keep in touch with family and friends ( e-mail with ThuderBird, or with FireFox via Gmail ) - buy gifts for loved ones, e.g. flowers, books, etc. (e.g. amazon.com via FireFox ) - join on-line discussions and communities ( e.g. Yahoo!Groups ) In fact, you could create an on-line group for the class. Just some initial thoughts. Good luck and let this list know how things go. Regards, - Robert http://www.cwelug.org/downloads Help others get OpenSource software. Distribute FLOSS for Windows, Linux, *BSD, and MacOS X with BitTorrent From kjcole at gri.gallaudet.edu Thu Apr 28 23:43:13 2005 From: kjcole at gri.gallaudet.edu (Kevin Cole) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 19:43:13 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] Seniors and open source In-Reply-To: <1114729510.4794.17.camel@gimly> References: <1114729510.4794.17.camel@gimly> Message-ID: <42717511.5080707@gri.gallaudet.edu> Jay Scherrer wrote: > I am asking for some help on planning an open sourced introductory class > mainly for Seniors but open to all interested. Are there any suggested > sample syllabuses available from the list? I am probably going to use > the Open CD project for the classroom > material because we do have access to several Microsoft machines. But I > haven't quite taught a class before, let a lone to Seniors. The director > warned me that most of the Seniors are not very computer savvy. So any > idea's will be appreciated. Some non-curriculum-specific thoughts: Consider some of the Live CD's out there, so that you can guarantee the students that they won't do any harm by experimenting. If you are going with pre-installed stuff, and have the flexibility to do so, configure things to that they're not too animated/flashy, while still being interesting. For example, personally, I think most web portals are a pain in the ass with a menu on top, a menu on the left, a menu on the bottom, a menu on the right, a stock ticker, a weather report, an animated ad and a pop-up box. If I wanted a frigging busy-box, I can go back to my playpen. ;-) Ergonomics: How are the desks, keyboards, mice, and monitors (font size, contrast, etc), chairs, overhead lighting? How much can you control them? -- Kevin Cole | Key ID: 0xE6F332C7 Gallaudet University | WWW: http://gri.gallaudet.edu/~kjcole/ Hall Memorial Bldg S-419 | V/TTY: (202) 651-5135 Washington, D.C. 20002-3695 | FAX: (202) 651-5746 "Using vi is not a sin. It's a penance." -- St. IGNUcious, Church of Emacs -- ---------------------[ Ciphire Signature ]---------------------- From: kjcole at gri.gallaudet.edu signed email body (1322 characters) Date: on 28 April 2005 at 23:43:28 UTC To: jay at scherrer.com, open-source-now-list at redhat.com ---------------------------------------------------------------- : Ciphire has secured this email against identity theft. : Free download at www.ciphire.com. The garbled lines : below are the sender's verifiable digital signature. ---------------------------------------------------------------- 00fAAAAAEAAAAgdXFCKgUAAPQBAAIAAgACACDVXSsjxu5osxPzrLAI/kxkyZEZZp Z7APoz5WsDgUx0sgEAknCsFFdN25gNH2f4gC3hGFdrocnsgkPei7RkY5IXl+oQ7u G2NIxHd3kbABNU7L9dk8/cAgfg63IyVeGj0im8Sw== ------------------[ End Ciphire Signed Message ]---------------- From kjcole at gri.gallaudet.edu Thu Apr 28 23:44:53 2005 From: kjcole at gri.gallaudet.edu (Kevin Cole) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 19:44:53 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] Seniors and open source In-Reply-To: <1114729510.4794.17.camel@gimly> References: <1114729510.4794.17.camel@gimly> Message-ID: <42717575.8000502@gri.gallaudet.edu> Jay Scherrer wrote: > I am asking for some help on planning an open sourced introductory class > mainly for Seniors but open to all interested. Are there any suggested > sample syllabuses available from the list? I am probably going to use > the Open CD project for the classroom > material because we do have access to several Microsoft machines. But I > haven't quite taught a class before, let a lone to Seniors. The director > warned me that most of the Seniors are not very computer savvy. So any > idea's will be appreciated. Some non-curriculum-specific thoughts: Consider some of the Live CD's out there, so that you can guarantee the students that they won't do any harm by experimenting. If you are going with pre-installed stuff, and have the flexibility to do so, configure things to that they're not too animated/flashy, while still being interesting. For example, personally, I think most web portals are a pain in the ass with a menu on top, a menu on the left, a menu on the bottom, a menu on the right, a stock ticker, a weather report, an animated ad and a pop-up box. If I wanted a frigging busy-box, I can go back to my playpen. ;-) That goes for wallpaper, and the number of icons on the desktop, menu choices in the start menu, etc. When they get savvy then can clutter things up their own way. Ergonomics: How are the desks, keyboards, mice, and monitors (font size, contrast, etc), chairs, overhead lighting? How much can you control them? -- Kevin Cole | Key ID: 0xE6F332C7 Gallaudet University | WWW: http://gri.gallaudet.edu/~kjcole/ Hall Memorial Bldg S-419 | V/TTY: (202) 651-5135 Washington, D.C. 20002-3695 | FAX: (202) 651-5746 "Using vi is not a sin. It's a penance." -- St. IGNUcious, Church of Emacs -- ---------------------[ Ciphire Signature ]---------------------- From: kjcole at gri.gallaudet.edu signed email body (1455 characters) Date: on 28 April 2005 at 23:45:05 UTC To: jay at scherrer.com, open-source-now-list at redhat.com ---------------------------------------------------------------- : Ciphire has secured this email against identity theft. : Free download at www.ciphire.com. The garbled lines : below are the sender's verifiable digital signature. ---------------------------------------------------------------- 00fAAAAAEAAACBdXFCrwUAANoCAAIAAgACACDVXSsjxu5osxPzrLAI/kxkyZEZZp Z7APoz5WsDgUx0sgEAknCsFFdN25gNH2f4gC3hGFdrocnsgkPei7RkY5IXl+oNZ5 rhknXrLHsoKnNcX5sVlH6qXPOvjez/yQ3snRQrmQ== ------------------[ End Ciphire Signed Message ]---------------- From accessys at smart.net Thu Apr 28 23:49:37 2005 From: accessys at smart.net (Access Systems) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 19:49:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [OS:N:] Seniors and open source In-Reply-To: <1114729510.4794.17.camel@gimly> References: <1114729510.4794.17.camel@gimly> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Apr 2005, Jay Scherrer wrote: Check out the "Simply Mepis" (debian in disguise) it is an entire operating system on disk and runs from disk if you want. gotta be the easiest to use version I've run accross Bob > Hello, > I was on this list awhile back, and wanted to see how we have > progressed. > I am asking for some help on planning an open sourced introductory class > mainly for Seniors but open to all interested. Are there any suggested > sample syllabuses available from the list? I am probably going to use > the Open CD project for the classroom > material because we do have access to several Microsoft machines. But I > haven't quite taught a class before, let a lone to Seniors. The director > warned me that most of the Seniors are not very computer savvy. So any > idea's will be appreciated. > > Thanks, > Jay Scherrer > > _______________________________________________ > Subscription and Archive: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ > - > For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ CONFIGURE YOUR E-MAIL TO SEND TEXT ONLY, see http://expita.com/nomime.html +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve Neither liberty nor safety", Benjamin Franklin - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ASCII Ribbon Campaign accessBob NO HTML/PDF/RTF in e-mail accessys at smartnospam.net NO MSWord docs in e-mail Access Systems, engineers NO attachments in e-mail, *LINUX powered* access is a civil right *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# THIS message and any attachments are CONFIDENTIAL and may be privileged. They are intended ONLY for the individual or entity named From rwcitek at alum.calberkeley.org Fri Apr 29 01:49:52 2005 From: rwcitek at alum.calberkeley.org (Robert Citek) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 20:49:52 -0500 Subject: [OS:N:] Seniors and open source In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thursday, Apr 28, 2005, at 18:49 US/Central, Access Systems wrote: > Check out the "Simply Mepis" (debian in disguise) it is an entire > operating system on disk and runs from disk if you want. gotta be the > easiest to use version I've run accross I visited the Mepis site: http://www.mepis.org/ but could not figure out if it is a LiveCD or not. Wait. Just found it: http://www.mepis.org/node/68 took a bit of digging. Anyone here read the book "Point and Click Linux"? Regards, - Robert http://www.cwelug.org/downloads Help others get OpenSource software. Distribute FLOSS for Windows, Linux, *BSD, and MacOS X with BitTorrent From accessys at smart.net Fri Apr 29 02:06:10 2005 From: accessys at smart.net (Access Systems) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 22:06:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [OS:N:] Seniors and open source In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Apr 2005, Robert Citek wrote: > On Thursday, Apr 28, 2005, at 18:49 US/Central, Access Systems wrote: > > Check out the "Simply Mepis" (debian in disguise) it is an entire > > operating system on disk and runs from disk if you want. gotta be the > > easiest to use version I've run accross > > I visited the Mepis site: > > http://www.mepis.org/ > > but could not figure out if it is a LiveCD or not. Wait. Just found > it: > > http://www.mepis.org/node/68 > > took a bit of digging. > > Anyone here read the book "Point and Click Linux"? I have the book, very good as a beginner book, doesn't talk down to people but at the same time doesn't assume you are a computer whiz. Bob ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ CONFIGURE YOUR E-MAIL TO SEND TEXT ONLY, see http://expita.com/nomime.html +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve Neither liberty nor safety", Benjamin Franklin - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ASCII Ribbon Campaign accessBob NO HTML/PDF/RTF in e-mail accessys at smartnospam.net NO MSWord docs in e-mail Access Systems, engineers NO attachments in e-mail, *LINUX powered* access is a civil right *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# THIS message and any attachments are CONFIDENTIAL and may be privileged. They are intended ONLY for the individual or entity named From etienne.goyer at videotron.ca Fri Apr 29 01:16:55 2005 From: etienne.goyer at videotron.ca (Etienne Goyer) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 21:16:55 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] Seniors and open source In-Reply-To: <1114729510.4794.17.camel@gimly> References: <1114729510.4794.17.camel@gimly> Message-ID: <42718B07.2000808@videotron.ca> I did taught introductory computer class a few years ago, and some of the participants where senior. From my experience, I would say that the biggest error I made was trying to teach concepts instead of tasks. For example, I wanted them to understand how the file system work at a conceptual level : what is a file, what is a directory, how can directory are nested, etc. This was a total failure. I wish I had spent more time in the word processor, because that was what the participant really wanted and what would have been the most useful skill for them to acquire. Also, make no assumption. For example, some of your participants may have to be taught that to write caps, they have to hold down the Shift key, and to "skip" line, they have to press Return. That was about 6 or 7 years ago. Computers have become more commonplace in the meantime, so the situation may have evolved. Godd luck in this endeavour ! Etienne Goyer Jay Scherrer wrote: > Hello, > I was on this list awhile back, and wanted to see how we have > progressed. > I am asking for some help on planning an open sourced introductory class > mainly for Seniors but open to all interested. Are there any suggested > sample syllabuses available from the list? I am probably going to use > the Open CD project for the classroom > material because we do have access to several Microsoft machines. But I > haven't quite taught a class before, let a lone to Seniors. The director > warned me that most of the Seniors are not very computer savvy. So any > idea's will be appreciated. > > Thanks, > Jay Scherrer > > _______________________________________________ > Subscription and Archive: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ > - > For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From kjcole at gri.gallaudet.edu Fri Apr 29 14:51:40 2005 From: kjcole at gri.gallaudet.edu (Kevin Cole) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 10:51:40 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] Seniors and open source In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <427249FC.8060606@gri.gallaudet.edu> I was going to be good and avoid mentioning any specific Live CD, but, since others are making endorsements... ;-) Ubuntu seems to be up- and-coming. Worth at least looking at their Live CD's (available for x86, PowerPC and i64 architectures). To get a lot more to choose from, look at the Live CD collection: http://www.frozentech.com/content/livecd.php You MIGHT be able to find something useful on my site as well... http://pchb1f.gallaudet.edu/tricki/ It's aimed more at "juniors" than "seniors" -- i.e. I'm trying to encourage the K-12 crowd, and it's probably not going to be well suited for your purposes, but there may be some gems there. -- Kevin Cole | Key ID: 0xE6F332C7 Gallaudet University | WWW: http://gri.gallaudet.edu/~kjcole/ Hall Memorial Bldg S-419 | V/TTY: (202) 651-5135 Washington, D.C. 20002-3695 | FAX: (202) 651-5746 "Using vi is not a sin. It's a penance." -- St. IGNUcious, Church of Emacs -- ---------------------[ Ciphire Signature ]---------------------- From: kjcole at gri.gallaudet.edu signed email body (771 characters) Date: on 29 April 2005 at 14:51:10 UTC To: open-source-now-list at redhat.com ---------------------------------------------------------------- : Ciphire has secured this email against identity theft. : Free download at www.ciphire.com. The garbled lines : below are the sender's verifiable digital signature. ---------------------------------------------------------------- 00fAAAAAEAAADeSXJCAwMAAF4CAAIAAgACACDVXSsjxu5osxPzrLAI/kxkyZEZZp Z7APoz5WsDgUx0sgEAknCsFFdN25gNH2f4gC3hGFdrocnsgkPei7RkY5IXl+oavG vJmhM3cKGJZeNoXTI4gexdqFny3C0OGtvc8GSYRA== ------------------[ End Ciphire Signed Message ]---------------- From Paul.Sherman at med.va.gov Fri Apr 29 15:24:38 2005 From: Paul.Sherman at med.va.gov (Sherman, Paul (CEOSH)) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 08:24:38 -0700 Subject: [OS:N:] Seniors and open source Message-ID: Kevin: Thanks so much for the frozen tech link. I had NO idea there were so many live distros! Paul Sherman Biomedical Engineer VHA Center for Engineering & Occupational Safety and Health (CEOSH) Voice: (314) 543-6712 Fax: (314) 543-6749 -----Original Message----- From: Kevin Cole Sent: Friday, April 29, 2005 9:52 AM To: Open source advocacy in education and government Subject: Re: [OS:N:] Seniors and open source I was going to be good and avoid mentioning any specific Live CD, but, since others are making endorsements... ;-) Ubuntu seems to be up- and-coming. Worth at least looking at their Live CD's (available for x86, PowerPC and i64 architectures). To get a lot more to choose from, look at the Live CD collection: http://www.frozentech.com/content/livecd.php You MIGHT be able to find something useful on my site as well... http://pchb1f.gallaudet.edu/tricki/ It's aimed more at "juniors" than "seniors" -- i.e. I'm trying to encourage the K-12 crowd, and it's probably not going to be well suited for your purposes, but there may be some gems there. From rwcitek at alum.calberkeley.org Fri Apr 29 16:18:10 2005 From: rwcitek at alum.calberkeley.org (Robert Citek) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 11:18:10 -0500 Subject: [OS:N:] LiveCDs (was: Seniors and open source) In-Reply-To: <427249FC.8060606@gri.gallaudet.edu> Message-ID: <4761F3CE-B8CA-11D9-8005-000A95880F88@alum.calberkeley.org> On Friday, Apr 29, 2005, at 09:51 US/Central, Kevin Cole wrote: > I was going to be good and avoid mentioning any specific Live CD, but, > since others are making endorsements... ;-) Ubuntu seems to be up- > and-coming. Worth at least looking at their Live CD's (available for > x86, PowerPC and i64 architectures). Ubuntu LiveCD does work well on my Apple PowerBook G4. It's the first LiveCD that gave me a complete Linux desktop on the PPC architecture. Very nice. Regards, - Robert http://www.cwelug.org/downloads Help others get OpenSource software. Distribute FLOSS for Windows, Linux, *BSD, and MacOS X with BitTorrent From jay at scherrer.com Fri Apr 29 17:35:41 2005 From: jay at scherrer.com (Jay Scherrer) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 10:35:41 -0700 Subject: [OS:N:] Seniors and open source In-Reply-To: <4761F3CE-B8CA-11D9-8005-000A95880F88@alum.calberkeley.org> References: <4761F3CE-B8CA-11D9-8005-000A95880F88@alum.calberkeley.org> Message-ID: <1114796142.5659.12.camel@gimly> Thanks for all the support and suggestions. My first step will be designing my synopsis around "The Open CD" . This, in my view will utilize a familiar setting (Microsoft), and not create such a culture shock. Then get the students used to using open source programs and knowing the difference. If they feel up to it, move onto installing Linux. Which to my surprise has a copy of Ubunto on the cd itself. If you don't mind, I would like to post or link a copy of my synopsis after it's done to the list for open suggestions. Jay Scherrer On Fri, 2005-04-29 at 11:18 -0500, Robert Citek wrote: > On Friday, Apr 29, 2005, at 09:51 US/Central, Kevin Cole wrote: > > I was going to be good and avoid mentioning any specific Live CD, but, > > since others are making endorsements... ;-) Ubuntu seems to be up- > > and-coming. Worth at least looking at their Live CD's (available for > > x86, PowerPC and i64 architectures). > > Ubuntu LiveCD does work well on my Apple PowerBook G4. It's the first > LiveCD that gave me a complete Linux desktop on the PPC architecture. > Very nice. > > Regards, > - Robert > http://www.cwelug.org/downloads > Help others get OpenSource software. Distribute FLOSS > for Windows, Linux, *BSD, and MacOS X with BitTorrent > > _______________________________________________ > Subscription and Archive: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ > - > For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: > From markjensen at charter.net Sat Apr 30 13:27:18 2005 From: markjensen at charter.net (Mark Jensen) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 08:27:18 -0500 Subject: [OS:N:] Seniors and open source In-Reply-To: <42717575.8000502@gri.gallaudet.edu> References: <1114729510.4794.17.camel@gimly> <42717575.8000502@gri.gallaudet.edu> Message-ID: <427387B6.1000504@charter.net> Kevin Cole wrote: > Consider some of the Live CD's out there, so that you can guarantee > the students that they won't do any harm by experimenting. Since I saw a lot of LiveCD talk here, let me point out that it may be really neat to show off Linux in this way, but it really isn't practical for them to *use* a LiveCD for email, as they would have to re-setup their account settings, plus they would lose all their data (previous emails, address book, etc). Unless they only used webmail or you also taught them how to use a USB key as a permanent home storage device. I think that the target audience is comfortable with Windows, and it would be an advantage to show them Open Source apps that run on that platform, rather than try to convert them to a new OS. Mark From rwcitek at alum.calberkeley.org Sat Apr 30 21:23:27 2005 From: rwcitek at alum.calberkeley.org (Robert Citek) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 16:23:27 -0500 Subject: [OS:N:] Seniors and open source In-Reply-To: <427387B6.1000504@charter.net> Message-ID: <176BC03D-B9BE-11D9-B7FC-000A95880F88@alum.calberkeley.org> On Saturday, Apr 30, 2005, at 08:27 US/Central, Mark Jensen wrote: > Since I saw a lot of LiveCD talk here, let me point out that it may be > really neat to show off Linux in this way, but it really isn't > practical for them to *use* a LiveCD for email, as they would have to > re-setup their account settings, plus they would lose all their data > (previous emails, address book, etc). Unless they only used webmail > or you also taught them how to use a USB key as a permanent home > storage device. Gmail or IMAP, anyone? :) BTW, having to re-configuring account settings is true in a classroom without assigned seating or in a classroom where drives routinely get re-imaged. > I think that the target audience is comfortable with Windows, and it > would be an advantage to show them Open Source apps that run on that > platform, rather than try to convert them to a new OS. Good point: use what they are comfortable with. However, this does depend on how much control you have over the teaching environment. If you have admin rights and are allowed to make changes, definitely install FLOSS on Windows along side all the pre-existing software. That will demonstrate that FLOSS knows how to play well with others. On the other hand, if you do not have admin rights, a LiveCD is the next best option. For example, I'm currently helping out in an environment where I do not have admin access on the Windows machines. That creates a challenge for introducing FireFox, ThunderBird, OpenOffice.org, and other FLOSS. In that kind of environment, Knoppix + USB or Knoppix + image on HDD works great[*]. The latest Knoppix 3.8 automatically scans for knoppix.img and other config files on boot up, so you don't even have to type in "knoppix myconfig=scan home=scan" [*] On a recent trip abroad, I used the Knoppix + HDD method on a few machines in cybercafes that were running Windows XP but didn't have USB slots. I would boot Knoppix, run Qtparted to shrink the NTFS volume by about one GB, and create two new partitions: one swap and one Linux data partition. I would then save my settings to the data partition. Booting without the Knoppix CD brought up Windows XP as normal. Booting with the Knoppix CD started my custom configuration. Regards, - Robert http://www.cwelug.org/downloads Help others get OpenSource software. Distribute FLOSS for Windows, Linux, *BSD, and MacOS X with BitTorrent From jay at scherrer.com Mon May 2 05:45:12 2005 From: jay at scherrer.com (Jay Scherrer) Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 22:45:12 -0700 Subject: [OS:N:] Seniors and open source In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1115012712.4734.24.camel@gimly> I've narrowed down a synopsis for a basic computing class at the Senior Center. Please, let me know if this is on track. Sounds like the hints they have been giving suggest to start very basic. So I've attached a SC-C101 class objective "BasicComputerConcepts.html". Thank you, Jay Scherrer On Fri, 2005-04-29 at 23:01 -0500, Christine F. Wanta wrote: > jay, > > we've got a very active seniors computing group and have done some > wonderful demos (one of the seniors has become quite excellent at doing > presentation on open source as well because of it ;-> > > I'm going to pass your request to a couple of people who should get back > to you quickly... > > good luck. > > --christine > > On Thu, 28 Apr 2005, Jay Scherrer wrote: > > > Hello, > > I was on this list awhile back, and wanted to see how we have > > progressed. > > I am asking for some help on planning an open sourced introductory class > > mainly for Seniors but open to all interested. Are there any suggested > > sample syllabuses available from the list? I am probably going to use > > the Open CD project for the classroom > > material because we do have access to several Microsoft machines. But I > > haven't quite taught a class before, let a lone to Seniors. The director > > warned me that most of the Seniors are not very computer savvy. So any > > idea's will be appreciated. > > > > Thanks, > > Jay Scherrer > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Subscription and Archive: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ > > - > > For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cmacd at telecomottawa.net Mon May 2 14:11:57 2005 From: cmacd at telecomottawa.net (Charles MacDonald) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 10:11:57 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] Seniors and open source In-Reply-To: <1115012712.4734.24.camel@gimly> References: <1115012712.4734.24.camel@gimly> Message-ID: <4276352D.4010701@TelecomOttawa.net> Jay Scherrer wrote: > I've narrowed down a synopsis for a basic computing class at the Senior > Center. Please, let me know if this is on track. Sounds like the hints > they have been giving suggest to start very basic. So I've attached a > SC-C101 class objective "BasicComputerConcepts.html". ..... >> C. Basic file structures and operations: Creating, Saving, >> Deleting files. I would even watch for terms like "file system".. "how a computer keeps your letters and other information - what is a computer file?" -- Charles MacDonald Stittsville Ontario cmacd at TelecomOttawa.net Just Beyond the Fringe http://www.TelecomOttawa.net/~cmacd/ No Microsoft Products were used in sending this e-mail. From cmacd at telecomottawa.net Tue May 3 14:20:22 2005 From: cmacd at telecomottawa.net (Charles MacDonald) Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 10:20:22 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] Someone has got a virus.. Message-ID: <427788A6.2040803@TelecomOttawa.net> I got a BUNCH of MS-Virsus like messages this morning, with subjects like Mail failed - or Your password. All of them are appear to be coming from a machine at Address 24.22.149.129 which shows as: Comcast Cable Communications, IP Services EASTERNSHORE-1 (NET-24-16-0-0-1) 24.16.0.0 - 24.23.255.255 Comcast Cable Communications WASHINGTON-11 (NET-24-22-128-0-1) 24.22.128.0 - 24.22.191.255 I think the major lists that I have posted on lately that has subscribers in the US are in the addresses to this message. If you are running winders and connected to COMCAST could you please run virus check. -- Charles MacDonald Stittsville Ontario cmacd at TelecomOttawa.net Just Beyond the Fringe http://www.TelecomOttawa.net/~cmacd/ No Microsoft Products were used in sending this e-mail. From jay at scherrer.com Tue May 3 16:04:59 2005 From: jay at scherrer.com (Jay Scherrer) Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 09:04:59 -0700 Subject: [OS:N:] Re: GSC-C101 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1115136299.4738.7.camel@gimly> Yes, I do: GSLUG it although in-frequently. On Tue, 2005-05-03 at 08:42 -0700, Ken Meyer wrote: > Jay, I'd be interested in knowing when you are going to teach this class -- > maybe ask if I could come and kibitz for awhile. > Does this mean you want to help teach a class? If so you would be more then welcome. I was going to present to the List (opensourcenow.org) a success story: Of how I'm winning, turning an all Windows environment into a community open sourced solution :-) PS. How was the NWLinuxfest? Jay Scherrer > Do you ever attend the Greater Seattle Linux User Group meetings? > > http://www.gslug.org > > Ken Meyer > 206-361-5057 > From kmeyer at blarg.net Tue May 3 17:07:24 2005 From: kmeyer at blarg.net (Ken Meyer) Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 10:07:24 -0700 Subject: [OS:N:] Re: GSC-C101 In-Reply-To: <1115136299.4738.7.camel@gimly> Message-ID: Jay -- I'm really not qualified to give classes on Linux, but I certainly could make some connections to folks who are -- that has seemed to be my role in promoting OSS, so I don't have much discretionary left to increase my own expertise to the necessary levels. I know that there are various organizations locally that purport to teach seniors about using computers, and I'm really interested in observing what the general level of comprehension is, i.e. where to pitch a presentation, given various teaching approaches and techniques. I could handle generic info about computing and the availability of resources. LFNW was excellent as usual, but it gets more frustrating as the session schedule "flattens-out". That is, this year, there were only four time-slots with about 12 sessions in each one. That means that there were over 40 presentations, of which you could attend only 4 (10%) in full, but maybe 8 (20%) if you ran around and were willing to fill in the blanks. This is all in the interests of spreading out the attendees, so as to minimize the angst of the school administrators over gross overcrowding violations of fire codes, so it's hard to know how to fix this, other than repeating the whole thing on Sunday, maybe, or even starting earlier than 10:00 AM and/or going later than 4:00 PM. A number of presenters are posting their slides, usually on their own sites, but should eventually (not yet) be linked from: http://www.linuxnorthwest.org You can also find the presenters' messages in the list archives of the fest's mail list, giving the locations at which their slides are posted. http://www.peakserv.com/mailman/listinfo/fest-list Also, there was some video recorded, which may show up on a streaming server sooner or later, depending on the quality of the vids and availability of bandwidth. Of course, Pogo Linux provided buses from Seattle again, the raffle was great, including about eight VMWare Workstations, a CrossOver Office, beaucoup books, colo hosting free time, etc., etc. -- and maybe above all, the fest is an opportunity to see some friends, and to put some faces on the e-mail sources. For another angle on the fest, see: http://os.newsforge.com/os/05/05/02/1349212.shtml?tid=2&tid=18 Ken Meyer -----Original Message----- From: open-source-now-list-bounces at redhat.com [mailto:open-source-now-list-bounces at redhat.com]On Behalf Of Jay Scherrer Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 9:05 AM To: kmeyer at blarg.net Cc: Open source advocacy in education and government Subject: [OS:N:] Re: GSC-C101 Yes, I do: GSLUG it although in-frequently. On Tue, 2005-05-03 at 08:42 -0700, Ken Meyer wrote: > Jay, I'd be interested in knowing when you are going to teach this class -- > maybe ask if I could come and kibitz for awhile. Does this mean you want to help teach a class? If so you would be more then welcome. I was going to present to the List (opensourcenow.org) a success story: Of how I'm winning, turning an all Windows environment into a community open sourced solution :-) PS. How was the NWLinuxfest? Jay Scherrer > Do you ever attend the Greater Seattle Linux User Group meetings? > > http://www.gslug.org > > Ken Meyer > 206-361-5057 From popcer at hotmail.com Tue May 17 06:30:16 2005 From: popcer at hotmail.com (Sittichai Pumpetch) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 01:30:16 -0500 Subject: [OS:N:] Opensource newbie Message-ID: Hi, I'm Pop. I'm just opensource newbie. I have several skills background in - TCP/IP, Voice communication (PBX) - C,Java - MS Exchange I'm interested to join opensource because I'd like to improve my programming skil to solve the real world programming problem. Also I hope I can help your guys to develop application in opensource world. Thanks Pop _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From Jwilliams at gerdauameristeel.com Tue May 17 06:33:03 2005 From: Jwilliams at gerdauameristeel.com (Johnny Williams) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 02:33:03 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] Opensource newbie (Out of the Office--Auto Reply********) Message-ID: I will be out of the office from May 9 thru May 11. Contact operations at ext 333, if it's an emergency. Thanks., Johnny Williams Jr. >>> open-source-now-list 05/17/05 02:30 >>> Hi, I'm Pop. I'm just opensource newbie. I have several skills background in - TCP/IP, Voice communication (PBX) - C,Java - MS Exchange I'm interested to join opensource because I'd like to improve my programming skil to solve the real world programming problem. Also I hope I can help your guys to develop application in opensource world. Thanks Pop _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ Subscription and Archive: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ - For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: From tony at mail.applog.com Tue May 17 12:22:32 2005 From: tony at mail.applog.com (Tony Nichols) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 08:22:32 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] Opensource newbie In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1116332552.2134.57.camel@tony64.alsicorp.com> On Tue, 2005-05-17 at 01:30 -0500, Sittichai Pumpetch wrote: > Hi, > > I'm Pop. I'm just opensource newbie. I have several skills background in > > - TCP/IP, Voice communication (PBX) > - C,Java > - MS Exchange > > I'm interested to join opensource because I'd like to improve my programming > skil to solve the real world programming problem. Also I hope I can help > your guys to develop application in opensource world. > > Thanks > Pop Have a look at asterisk (www.asterisk.org) It is an open source pbx. The wiki is available at http://www.voip-info.org/wiki-Asterisk -- Tony Nichols Appalachian Log Structures Inc. From bwiese at cotse.com Tue May 17 13:18:35 2005 From: bwiese at cotse.com (Brian Wiese) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 08:18:35 -0500 Subject: [OS:N:] Opensource newbie In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4289EF2B.10908@cotse.com> Welcome Pop! It's always exciting to hear of new people getting interested in supporting the open source/free software movement - especially with your experience and desire to "make it happen" in developing new software. It seems this list has not been as active recently as in the past, but I'm sure there are plenty of opportunities for you get to get involved in supporting open source and your programming skillset. Unfortunately, sourceforge.net's search functionality is currently down, but when looking for FOSS (Free/Open Source Software) projects to take part in, some good sites are: http://sf.net http://freshmeat.net http://savannah.gnu.org http://savannah.nongnu.org You could search for projects of your interest and take part in them. Brian Sittichai Pumpetch wrote: > Hi, > > I'm Pop. I'm just opensource newbie. I have several skills background in > > - TCP/IP, Voice communication (PBX) > - C,Java > - MS Exchange > > I'm interested to join opensource because I'd like to improve my > programming skil to solve the real world programming problem. Also I > hope I can help your guys to develop application in opensource world. > > Thanks > Pop From hongvnc at yahoo.com Wed May 18 11:58:40 2005 From: hongvnc at yahoo.com (Nam Hoang) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 04:58:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [OS:N:] Open-Source Newbie Message-ID: <20050518115840.77556.qmail@web30515.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hello everyone, I'm Nam. I'm a student. Now, I'm taking part in a project about using (may be modifying) Linux OS so that it can run on SUPERNODE system. I'm a newbie, and I hope everyone can help me. Thanks NAM __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From mfioretti at mclink.it Wed May 18 18:17:22 2005 From: mfioretti at mclink.it (M. Fioretti) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 20:17:22 +0200 Subject: [OS:N:] Linux in Italian schools Message-ID: <20050518181721.GA20244@mclink.it> First article of a series at http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/8309 Please let me know if any cooperation (between students and/or teachers of De Sterlich and those of other schools in different countries) comes out of this. Ciao, Marco F. -- Marco Fioretti mfioretti, at the server mclink.it Fedora Core 3 for low memory http://www.rule-project.org/ Those who will be able to conquer software will be able to conquer the world. -- Tadahiro Sekimoto, president, NEC Corp. From jay at scherrer.com Wed May 18 21:04:16 2005 From: jay at scherrer.com (Jay Scherrer) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 14:04:16 -0700 Subject: [OS:N:] Linux in Italian schools In-Reply-To: <20050518181721.GA20244@mclink.it> References: <20050518181721.GA20244@mclink.it> Message-ID: <1116450256.5635.11.camel@gimly> Marco, Thanks for such a good article. As I was starting to envision introducing Linux into this all "Windows" Senior Service center, I ran across your article. Sense then I've used it almost as a field guide of how to slowly introduce new concepts in which solves the budget crunch and allows so many more avenues of tools to use. Jay Scherrer On Wed, 2005-05-18 at 20:17 +0200, M. Fioretti wrote: > First article of a series at http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/8309 > > Please let me know if any cooperation (between students and/or > teachers of De Sterlich and those of other schools in different > countries) comes out of this. > > Ciao, > Marco F. > From mfioretti at mclink.it Sun May 29 21:41:22 2005 From: mfioretti at mclink.it (M. Fioretti) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 23:41:22 +0200 Subject: [OS:N:] UKPO workshops find patent directive faulty Message-ID: <20050529214122.GC15271@mclink.it> "Those who attended Patent Office workshop around Britain have highlighted problems with the EU software directive, but a change in UK policy doesn't appear likely" http://news.zdnet.co.uk/business/legal/0,39020651,39200624,00.htm -- Marco Fioretti mfioretti, at the server mclink.it Fedora Core 3 for low memory http://www.rule-project.org/ Needs are a function of what other people have. From pnelson at riverdale.k12.or.us Sat Jun 4 04:12:43 2005 From: pnelson at riverdale.k12.or.us (Paul Nelson) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 21:12:43 -0700 Subject: [OS:N:] K12EdCom.org Announcement Message-ID: <42A12A3B.2000907@riverdale.k12.or.us> Hello Folks, For those of you who will only look at the first line... http://k12edcom.org ;-) For some time on the K12OSN list members have been talking about the need for a second listserv that was more focused on using free and open content software/curriculum. We have created a new list that we hope will meet your needs. Read on... The original K12OSN list is a great list for technical discussions about hardware and software configuration and we expect it to continue as a valuable resource for users of open source software in schools. The truth is that Linux works very well in schools and we now have a large number of non-technical education folk who are using it every day to teach. So, we created a new list for USERS of open source software in schools, but we're going one step farther. Read on... There is a growing movement around the world to make information and educational materials freely available on the Internet. A quick search of the term "opencourseware" on google.com turns up a bunch of links that look promising but they are all directed at college/university level learners. http://ocw.mit.edu/index.html http://ocw.usu.edu http://cnx.rice.edu One other interesting project is http://en.wikibooks.org - in fact, there are several interesting wiki projects. http://ibiblio.org/ is another great example of freely available information. Our goal is to develop an educational commons of curriculum and learning resources that is freely available, published under the Creative Commons license. We're calling it K12EdCom.org. The web site is up and running (barely...) at http://k12edcom.org. You can join the k12edcom list and I expect/hope that it will become a place where users of free software and free curriculum can share their ideas and get help and encouragement. We decided to host the web site using Drupal (http://drupal.org) so that we could let it evolve into other areas including publishing and linking to educational materials. There are also forums and blogging tools available to registered users. Registering on the web site is not the same as joining the listserv. You will find a link to the listerv and archives on the site though. There are two roles for registered site users: simple users and authors. I hope to attract educators interested in authoring curriculum, articles, blogs and stories on the web site. If you are interested in being an author, sign up on http://k12edcom.org and send me an email and I'll promote you right away. I have a long list of articles that need writing and it would be great to generate content for the site right away. One of the first stories we need to do is something on all the other similar projects out there. We also need to build up the links section. I'll be working on that this weekend. This is just a first step towards what I think we can become. There are a lot of ways to spend your time. Creating learning materials for kids all over the world is good one. I want to offer a special invitation to all you teachers out there with your favorite units of instruction, carefully developed over the years. Here's your chance to publish your work in a supportive community and watch it grow. I hope you'll join us and participate. ;-) Paul -- ====================================================================== Paul Nelson - Make things better. http://pnelson.us From jay at scherrer.com Sat Jun 4 05:04:09 2005 From: jay at scherrer.com (Jay Scherrer) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2005 22:04:09 -0700 Subject: [OS:N:] use Perl | Google's Summer of Code Message-ID: <1117861449.5017.11.camel@gimly> List, Students pick your mentors! And get paid? http://use.perl.org/article.pl?sid=05/06/01/1552221 Jay Scherrer -- -- Shopping for computer parts? Custom Linux configurations? Check my list: -- From David.Knight at clubcorp.com Mon Jun 6 06:01:57 2005 From: David.Knight at clubcorp.com (David.Knight at clubcorp.com) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 01:01:57 -0500 Subject: [OS:N:] David Knight/CLUBCORP/US is out of the office. Message-ID: I will be out of the office starting 06/03/2005 and will not return until 06/13/2005. I am out of the office in training starting 5/13/05 and will be returning 05/13/05. I will be checking e-mail periodically and will try to respond as soon as time permits. From rwcitek at alum.calberkeley.org Thu Jun 16 04:26:22 2005 From: rwcitek at alum.calberkeley.org (Robert Citek) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 23:26:22 -0500 Subject: [OS:N:] bash intro for high school students? Message-ID: What book or other resource would people recommend for introducing high school students to the bash shell? These are students that are familiar with the pointy-clicky Windows environment, and they've picked up KDE using Knoppix pretty quickly. But KDE can be awkward at times and some things have to be done within a bash shell. I personally like the O'Reilly book "Learning the bash Shell," but perhaps that's a bit much to chew on for an intro, or not. Has anyone else introduced high school students to bash? Regards, - Robert http://www.cwelug.org/downloads Help others get OpenSource software. Distribute FLOSS for Windows, Linux, *BSD, and MacOS X with BitTorrent From bwiese at cotse.com Thu Jun 16 05:45:02 2005 From: bwiese at cotse.com (Brian Wiese) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 01:45:02 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] bash intro for high school students? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42B111DE.1040504@cotse.com> The BEST source I have ever found, and still use it today... please point others toward it: http://www.linuxcommand.org =) enjoy Brian Robert Citek wrote: > What book or other resource would people recommend for introducing > high school students to the bash shell? > > These are students that are familiar with the pointy-clicky Windows > environment, and they've picked up KDE using Knoppix pretty quickly. > But KDE can be awkward at times and some things have to be done > within a bash shell. I personally like the O'Reilly book "Learning > the bash Shell," but perhaps that's a bit much to chew on for an > intro, or not. Has anyone else introduced high school students to bash? > > Regards, > - Robert > http://www.cwelug.org/downloads > Help others get OpenSource software. Distribute FLOSS > for Windows, Linux, *BSD, and MacOS X with BitTorrent > > _______________________________________________ > Subscription and Archive: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ > - > For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: > > -- bwiese[at]cotse.com | brianwiese.net | 402.297.9392 "What we do in life echoes in eternity" - Gladiator From dankoren at yahoo.com Thu Jun 16 08:35:20 2005 From: dankoren at yahoo.com (Dan Koren) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 01:35:20 -0700 Subject: [OS:N:] bash intro for high school students? References: Message-ID: <041c01c5724e$5542e4b0$b766979c@portal.com> It would be nice to understand the reasons why one would prefer bash to other shells, in particular with respect with introducing high school students to computers. Why bash rather than ksh or perl? IMHO the best vehicle for introducing high school (or any other) students to computing is APL ;-) dk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Citek" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 9:26 PM Subject: [OS:N:] bash intro for high school students? > > What book or other resource would people recommend for introducing > high school students to the bash shell? > > These are students that are familiar with the pointy-clicky Windows > environment, and they've picked up KDE using Knoppix pretty quickly. > But KDE can be awkward at times and some things have to be done > within a bash shell. I personally like the O'Reilly book "Learning > the bash Shell," but perhaps that's a bit much to chew on for an > intro, or not. Has anyone else introduced high school students to bash? > > Regards, > - Robert > http://www.cwelug.org/downloads > Help others get OpenSource software. Distribute FLOSS > for Windows, Linux, *BSD, and MacOS X with BitTorrent > > _______________________________________________ > Subscription and Archive: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ > - > For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: > From jkinz at kinz.org Thu Jun 16 13:00:14 2005 From: jkinz at kinz.org (Jeff Kinz) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:00:14 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] bash intro for high school students? In-Reply-To: <041c01c5724e$5542e4b0$b766979c@portal.com>; from dankoren@yahoo.com on Thu, Jun 16, 2005 at 01:35:20AM -0700 References: <041c01c5724e$5542e4b0$b766979c@portal.com> Message-ID: <20050616090014.A30431@redline.comcast.net> On Thu, Jun 16, 2005 at 01:35:20AM -0700, Dan Koren wrote: #1 - Brian and Dan - Please use bottom posting. #2 - Outlook/MS email clients are broken, you can fix them with these patches: outlook express: http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/ Outlook: http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/outlook-quotefix/ > From: "Robert Citek" > > > > What book or other resource would people recommend for introducing > > high school students to the bash shell? > > > > These are students that are familiar with the pointy-clicky Windows > > environment, and they've picked up KDE using Knoppix pretty quickly. > > But KDE can be awkward at times and some things have to be done > > within a bash shell. I personally like the O'Reilly book "Learning > > the bash Shell," but perhaps that's a bit much to chew on for an > > It would be nice to understand the reasons why one would > prefer bash to other shells, in particular with respect with > introducing high school students to computers. > > Why bash rather than ksh or perl? Perl is not a shell. Perl (while wonderful) is not designed to be used interactively. You need one of the command shells for that. One can try to use Perl as a shell, but it quickly becomes apparent that the need to have everything be a complete program is much more awkward than the "command line" mode of the shells Why bash vs other shells? ksh (which was my favorite in years past) is not available on all Linux or UNIX platforms. Since it is not compatible with bash or sh (which are available on all Linux/UNIX platforms, a ksh user when suddenly finding themselves in one of those no-ksh environments will find that many of their scripts are broken and no longer work, or, worse, the script don't break but now behave differently in subtle ways that cause significantly different functionality. It is much wiser, and you are giving up very little to stick with bash or sh. (although I do miss "typeset -Z30" ) > > IMHO the best vehicle for introducing high school (or > any other) students to computing is APL ;-) Ah, yes - the original read-only language. ;-) Now we use Perl for read-only ;-) > > intro, or not. Has anyone else introduced high school students to bash? Tons. -- Jeff Kinz, Emergent Research, Hudson, MA. From rwcitek at alum.calberkeley.org Thu Jun 16 14:17:02 2005 From: rwcitek at alum.calberkeley.org (Robert Citek) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:17:02 -0500 Subject: [OS:N:] bash intro for high school students? In-Reply-To: <041c01c5724e$5542e4b0$b766979c@portal.com> References: <041c01c5724e$5542e4b0$b766979c@portal.com> Message-ID: <22C97D5D-07EE-4B96-A8DD-020424F74B2C@alum.calberkeley.org> On Jun 16, 2005, at 3:35 AM, Dan Koren wrote: > It would be nice to understand the reasons why one would > prefer bash to other shells, in particular with respect with > introducing high school students to computers. > > Why bash rather than ksh or perl? > You gotta start somewhere, and bash is the default shell with Knoppix and derivatives: - boot with CD into graphics mode - open terminal Bingo! You're at a bash shell. Pretty simple. Alternatively: - boot: failsafe debug -b 1 You're at a bash shell as root exploring the boot process. Regards, - Robert http://www.cwelug.org/downloads Help others get OpenSource software. Distribute FLOSS for Windows, Linux, *BSD, and MacOS X with BitTorrent From jay at scherrer.com Thu Jun 16 14:34:22 2005 From: jay at scherrer.com (Jay Scherrer) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 07:34:22 -0700 Subject: [OS:N:] bash intro for high school students? In-Reply-To: <20050616090014.A30431@redline.comcast.net> References: <041c01c5724e$5542e4b0$b766979c@portal.com> <20050616090014.A30431@redline.comcast.net> Message-ID: <1118932462.5210.37.camel@gimly> On Thu, 2005-06-16 at 09:00 -0400, Jeff Kinz wrote: > On Thu, Jun 16, 2005 at 01:35:20AM -0700, Dan Koren wrote: > > #1 - Brian and Dan - Please use bottom posting. > #2 - Outlook/MS email clients are broken, you can fix them > with these patches: > > outlook express: http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/ > > > Outlook: http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/outlook-quotefix/ > > > From: "Robert Citek" > > > > > > What book or other resource would people recommend for introducing > > > high school students to the bash shell? > > > My favorite was the Linux programing Bible: by John Goerzen Altough teaching the subject of Shell programing using the diferent shells it reinforced the basics with grep, awk, and sed. > > > These are students that are familiar with the pointy-clicky Windows > > > environment, and they've picked up KDE using Knoppix pretty quickly. > > > But KDE can be awkward at times and some things have to be done > > > within a bash shell. I personally like the O'Reilly book "Learning > > > the bash Shell," but perhaps that's a bit much to chew on for an > > > > It would be nice to understand the reasons why one would > > prefer bash to other shells, in particular with respect with > > introducing high school students to computers. > > > > Why bash rather than ksh or perl? > > Perl is not a shell. > That being said, these are also the roots of Perl. So starting with the basics (grep, awk, sed) is fundamental even for .sh. > Perl (while wonderful) is not designed to be used interactively. > You need one of the command shells for that. One can try to use > Perl as a shell, but it quickly becomes apparent that the need to have > everything be a complete program is much more awkward than the > "command line" mode of the shells > This is not true. My respected instructor, Dr. Tim Maher will be publishing a great book from Manning called "Minimal Perl" . Minimal Perl is an attempt to show readers the effectiveness of what Perl can do with as little as one line of code. > Why bash vs other shells? > > ksh (which was my favorite in years past) is not available on all > Linux or UNIX platforms. Since it is not compatible with bash or sh > (which are available on all Linux/UNIX platforms, a ksh user when > suddenly finding themselves in one of those no-ksh environments will > find that many of their scripts are broken and no longer work, or, > worse, the script don't break but now behave differently in subtle > ways that cause significantly different functionality. > > It is much wiser, and you are giving up very little to stick with bash > or sh. (although I do miss "typeset -Z30" ) > > > > > IMHO the best vehicle for introducing high school (or > > any other) students to computing is APL ;-) > > Ah, yes - the original read-only language. ;-) > Now we use Perl for read-only ;-) > > > > intro, or not. Has anyone else introduced high school students to bash? > Tons. > Jay Scherrer From jkinz at kinz.org Thu Jun 16 14:46:39 2005 From: jkinz at kinz.org (Jeff Kinz) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 10:46:39 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] bash intro for high school students? In-Reply-To: <1118932462.5210.37.camel@gimly>; from jay@scherrer.com on Thu, Jun 16, 2005 at 07:34:22AM -0700 References: <041c01c5724e$5542e4b0$b766979c@portal.com> <20050616090014.A30431@redline.comcast.net> <1118932462.5210.37.camel@gimly> Message-ID: <20050616104639.B30431@redline.comcast.net> On Thu, Jun 16, 2005 at 07:34:22AM -0700, Jay Scherrer wrote: > On Thu, 2005-06-16 at 09:00 -0400, Jeff Kinz wrote: > > Perl (while wonderful) is not designed to be used interactively. > > You need one of the command shells for that. One can try to use > > Perl as a shell, but it quickly becomes apparent that the need to have > > everything be a complete program is much more awkward than the > > "command line" mode of the shells > > > This is not true. Yes it is. > My respected instructor, Dr. Tim Maher will be publishing a great book > from Manning called "Minimal Perl" . > Minimal Perl is an attempt to show readers the effectiveness of what > Perl can do with as little as one line of code. Jay, while Perl one liners are wonderful things and can be very useful, they are not as "minimally useful" nor as easy to use nor as easy to understand as bash/sh command lines. (With all due respect to Dr Maher, because Perl is truly wonderful, no question) For example, word count on a file: "wc file" Perl, of course, can do this in one line as well. Is it as easy to understand? No Is it as easy to type? No Inside the Perl shell can you go back to that line and edit it to something more complex, like count how many lines begin with "it" something like this?: egrep -i "^it" < file | wc No. Perl is wonderful. Perl one-liners are great, but Perl is not a shell. It lacks the features which make command shells the best place to use *NIX from. I challenge you to try to stop using your command shell. For one hour do everything from within Perl, or with only Perl one-liners, using none of the command shell features (like command line editing). See if you feel like you have been more or less productive. -- Jeff Kinz, Emergent Research, Hudson, MA. From jay at scherrer.com Thu Jun 16 15:33:48 2005 From: jay at scherrer.com (Jay Scherrer) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 08:33:48 -0700 Subject: [OS:N:] bash intro for high school students? In-Reply-To: <20050616104639.B30431@redline.comcast.net> References: <041c01c5724e$5542e4b0$b766979c@portal.com> <20050616090014.A30431@redline.comcast.net> <1118932462.5210.37.camel@gimly> <20050616104639.B30431@redline.comcast.net> Message-ID: <1118936029.5210.64.camel@gimly> Jeff, I don't know why you are so adamant against Perl? There is no question that in Unix the command line rules. But I was only pointing to the fact that as you teach or show students a subject, Let's say shell scripting, it might be a good idea to start at the beginning but also show how far one can go. In your example you use "egrep -i "^it" < file | wc ", now wouldn't it be great if you were to explain where "egrep" came from? And what else "egrep" can do? You see shell scripting is nothing more then grouping predefined functions together. This is what you need to get across especially in this day of oop. I really don't want to get into a script battle with you. But I see Perl as a successful accumulation of all of these languages or utilities. On one hand you have head and tail and on the other you have Perl. Jay Scherrer On Thu, 2005-06-16 at 10:46 -0400, Jeff Kinz wrote: > On Thu, Jun 16, 2005 at 07:34:22AM -0700, Jay Scherrer wrote: > > On Thu, 2005-06-16 at 09:00 -0400, Jeff Kinz wrote: > > > Perl (while wonderful) is not designed to be used interactively. > > > You need one of the command shells for that. One can try to use > > > Perl as a shell, but it quickly becomes apparent that the need to have > > > everything be a complete program is much more awkward than the > > > "command line" mode of the shells > > > > > This is not true. > > Yes it is. > > > My respected instructor, Dr. Tim Maher will be publishing a great book > > from Manning called "Minimal Perl" . > > Minimal Perl is an attempt to show readers the effectiveness of what > > Perl can do with as little as one line of code. > > Jay, while Perl one liners are wonderful things and can be very useful, > they are not as "minimally useful" nor as easy to use nor as easy to > understand as bash/sh command lines. (With all due respect to > Dr Maher, because Perl is truly wonderful, no question) > > For example, word count on a file: "wc file" > > Perl, of course, can do this in one line as well. > > Is it as easy to understand? No > > Is it as easy to type? No > > Inside the Perl shell can you go back to that line and edit it to > something more complex, like count how many lines begin with "it" > something like this?: > > egrep -i "^it" < file | wc > > No. > > Perl is wonderful. Perl one-liners are great, but Perl is not a shell. > It lacks the features which make command shells the best place to use > *NIX from. > > I challenge you to try to stop using your command shell. > For one hour do everything from within Perl, or with only Perl > one-liners, using none of the command shell features (like command line > editing). See if you feel like you have been more or less productive. > > > From jkinz at kinz.org Thu Jun 16 17:33:33 2005 From: jkinz at kinz.org (Jeff Kinz) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 13:33:33 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] bash intro for high school students? In-Reply-To: <1118936029.5210.64.camel@gimly>; from jay@scherrer.com on Thu, Jun 16, 2005 at 08:33:48AM -0700 References: <041c01c5724e$5542e4b0$b766979c@portal.com> <20050616090014.A30431@redline.comcast.net> <1118932462.5210.37.camel@gimly> <20050616104639.B30431@redline.comcast.net> <1118936029.5210.64.camel@gimly> Message-ID: <20050616133333.A452@redline.comcast.net> On Thu, Jun 16, 2005 at 08:33:48AM -0700, Jay Scherrer wrote: > Jeff, > I don't know why you are so adamant against Perl? Excuse me? Nice try Jay, but nowhere in this thread did I say I was "adamant against Perl" If anything I have praised it highly. (Re-writing history is a sleazy thing to do, please stop it.) Per the praising Perl, In this thread I have said these positive things about Perl: "Perl (while wonderful) is not designed to be used interactively." "while Perl one liners are wonderful things and can be very useful" "Perl is wonderful." "Perl one-liners are great," "(With all due respect to Dr Maher, because Perl is truly wonderful, no question)" Thats is five separate statements all praising Perl. ( please remove your head from whatever dark place it was stuck in. ;-) Now - back to the point of the original thread, which you seem to have forgotten: "Why bash rather than ksh or Perl?" High school students (and others) who are learning about *NIX should use bash over ksh for reasons of availability and compatibility. High school students (and others) who are learning about *NIX should learn bash before learning Perl for reasons of ease of use, ease of learning and higher utility, (eg , Perl is not a command shell) >There is no question that in Unix the command line rules. Then there is no point to talking about this further, right? (sigh) > But I was only pointing to the fact > that as you teach or show students a subject, Let's say shell scripting, > it might be a good idea to start at the beginning but also show how far > one can go. No, you didn't say that, you said: "That being said, these are also the roots of Perl. So starting with the basics (grep, awk, sed) is fundamental even for .sh." Which I had no argument with. The issue we are addressing is that when I said: >>>> Perl (while wonderful) is not designed to be used interactively. >>>> You need one of the command shells for that. One can try to use >>>> Perl as a shell, but it quickly becomes apparent that the need to have >>>> everything be a complete program is much more awkward than the >>>> "command line" mode of the shells You replied: >>> This is not true. To which I responded pointedly, with examples showing how bash/sh is easier to use (less awkward) than Perl. To which you responded that I was adamant against Perl, which is utter crap, and shows that you either lost track of the issue being discussed or were just attempting a sleazy "smear the debater" technique implying that I don't like Perl. ( I do like Perl((I like Python even better :-) )) > In your example you use "egrep -i "^it" < file | wc ", now > wouldn't it be great if you were to explain where "egrep" came from? And > what else "egrep" can do? Jay, when I teach shell scripting courses I do explain grep/egrep/fgrep and many other commands etc ad nauseum, but it would hardly make sense to include my entire course on shell scripting in this email thread, now would it? > You see shell scripting is nothing more then > grouping predefined functions together. Really. Imagine what a shock that must be to me, someone who has been using *NIX since 1981. ;-) > I see Perl as a successful accumulation of > all of these languages or utilities. On one hand you have head and tail > and on the other you have Perl. Congratulations on your insight. I see that you have read one of the many historical explanations for how Perl evolved or came into being, the best ones having been written by Larry Wall, the author of Perl. ;-) I'm done with this thread. Please enjoy your scripting and Perl programming and all your other future efforts. -- Jeff Kinz, Emergent Research, Hudson, MA. -- Jeff Kinz, Emergent Research, Hudson, MA. From bwiese at cotse.com Fri Jun 17 01:01:26 2005 From: bwiese at cotse.com (Brian Wiese) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 21:01:26 -0400 Subject: back on topic... Re: [OS:N:] bash intro for high school students? In-Reply-To: <20050616133333.A452@redline.comcast.net> References: <041c01c5724e$5542e4b0$b766979c@portal.com> <20050616090014.A30431@redline.comcast.net> <1118932462.5210.37.camel@gimly> <20050616104639.B30431@redline.comcast.net> <1118936029.5210.64.camel@gimly> <20050616133333.A452@redline.comcast.net> Message-ID: <42B220E6.4030300@cotse.com> Jeff Kinz wrote: >On Thu, Jun 16, 2005 at 08:33:48AM -0700, Jay Scherrer wrote: > > >>Jeff, >>I don't know why you are so adamant against Perl? >> >> > >Excuse me? > >Nice try Jay, but nowhere in this thread did I say I was >"adamant against Perl" If anything I have praised it highly. > >(Re-writing history is a sleazy thing to do, please stop it.) > >Per the praising Perl, >In this thread I have said these positive things about Perl: > >"Perl (while wonderful) is not designed to be used interactively." >"while Perl one liners are wonderful things and can be very useful" >"Perl is wonderful." >"Perl one-liners are great," >"(With all due respect to Dr Maher, because Perl is truly wonderful, no question)" > >Thats is five separate statements all praising Perl. ( please remove >your head from whatever dark place it was stuck in. ;-) > >Now - back to the point of the original thread, which you seem to have >forgotten: > >"Why bash rather than ksh or Perl?" > >High school students (and others) who are learning about *NIX should >use bash over ksh for reasons of availability and compatibility. > >High school students (and others) who are learning about *NIX should >learn bash before learning Perl for reasons of ease of use, ease of >learning and higher utility, (eg , Perl is not a command shell) > > > >>There is no question that in Unix the command line rules. >> >> > >Then there is no point to talking about this further, right? (sigh) > > > >>But I was only pointing to the fact >>that as you teach or show students a subject, Let's say shell scripting, >>it might be a good idea to start at the beginning but also show how far >>one can go. >> >> > >No, you didn't say that, you said: >"That being said, these are also the roots of Perl. >So starting with the basics (grep, awk, sed) is fundamental even >for .sh." > >Which I had no argument with. > >The issue we are addressing is that when I said: > > > >>>>>Perl (while wonderful) is not designed to be used interactively. >>>>>You need one of the command shells for that. One can try to use >>>>>Perl as a shell, but it quickly becomes apparent that the need to have >>>>>everything be a complete program is much more awkward than the >>>>>"command line" mode of the shells >>>>> >>>>> > >You replied: > > >>>>This is not true. >>>> >>>> > >To which I responded pointedly, with examples showing how bash/sh >is easier to use (less awkward) than Perl. > >To which you responded that I was adamant against Perl, which is utter >crap, and shows that you either lost track of the issue being discussed >or were just attempting a sleazy "smear the debater" technique implying >that I don't like Perl. ( I do like Perl((I like Python even better :-) )) > > > >>In your example you use "egrep -i "^it" < file | wc ", now >>wouldn't it be great if you were to explain where "egrep" came from? And >>what else "egrep" can do? >> >> > >Jay, when I teach shell scripting courses I do explain grep/egrep/fgrep >and many other commands etc ad nauseum, but it would hardly make sense >to include my entire course on shell scripting in this email thread, now >would it? > > > >>You see shell scripting is nothing more then >>grouping predefined functions together. >> >> > >Really. Imagine what a shock that must be to me, someone who has been using >*NIX since 1981. ;-) > > > >>I see Perl as a successful accumulation of >>all of these languages or utilities. On one hand you have head and tail >>and on the other you have Perl. >> >> > >Congratulations on your insight. I see that you have read one of the >many historical explanations for how Perl evolved or came into being, the >best ones having been written by Larry Wall, the author of Perl. ;-) > >I'm done with this thread. > >Please enjoy your scripting and Perl programming and all your other future >efforts. > Jeff -- please reexamine your 20 line reply to the 4 lines Jay took to recommend Perl in minimal use, to complement an instruction in the Bash shell. -----------(begin quote)----------- > My respected instructor, Dr. Tim Maher will be publishing a great book >> from Manning called "Minimal Perl" . >> Minimal Perl is an attempt to show readers the effectiveness of what >> Perl can do with as little as one line of code. > > Jay, while Perl one liners are wonderful things and can be very useful, they are not as "minimally useful" nor as easy to use nor as easy to understand as bash/sh command lines. (With all due respect to Dr Maher, because Perl is truly wonderful, no question) For example, word count on a file: "wc file" Perl, of course, can do this in one line as well. Is it as easy to understand? No Is it as easy to type? No Inside the Perl shell can you go back to that line and edit it to something more complex, like count how many lines begin with "it" something like this?: egrep -i "^it" < file | wc No. Perl is wonderful. Perl one-liners are great, but Perl is not a shell. It lacks the features which make command shells the best place to use *NIX from. I challenge you to try to stop using your command shell. For one hour do everything from within Perl, or with only Perl one-liners, using none of the command shell features (like command line editing). See if you feel like you have been more or less productive. -----------(end quote)----------- I found your comments a bit harsh, childish (No, no, no...), and off topic. I thought Jay put it quite nicely in asking "why are you so adamant against Perl?" -- to which you replied another near 50 lines (and quoted lines) again in what I felt to be a harsh, childish, and off topic manner by turning the thread into your own critical rant, with closing attempt to get "the last word in". Please... Let's just all be considerate to choose our words carefully, and realize that criticism/sarcasm doesn't carry well in emails. Now, does anyone want to address the original question (besides me)? (quote) "What book or other resource would people recommend for introducing high school students to the bash shell?" (/quote) -- bwiese[at]cotse.com | brianwiese.net | 402.297.9392 "What we do in life echoes in eternity" - Gladiator From aravind_hyd at yahoo.com Fri Jun 17 04:13:09 2005 From: aravind_hyd at yahoo.com (aravind r) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 21:13:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [OS:N:] open-source-now-list Digest, Vol 15, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <20050616153414.021A974F38@hormel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20050617041309.29639.qmail@web31701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> arvind.. I dont think bash is a butt,bcoz it would be better for the intro to accosttomed to the bash rather than ssh or korn . KDE can be the better opponent for the sucky n sticky WINDOWS addictives.. The K would be the KILLER for the windows... ____________________________________________________ Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com From nbs at sonic.net Fri Jun 17 08:41:34 2005 From: nbs at sonic.net (Bill Kendrick) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 01:41:34 -0700 Subject: [OS:N:] bash intro for high school students? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050617084134.GA21413@sonic.net> On Wed, Jun 15, 2005 at 11:26:22PM -0500, Robert Citek wrote: > > What book or other resource would people recommend for introducing > high school students to the bash shell? I'm not sure how well it'd do as an introductory book, but "Unix Power Tools" by O'Reilly, which I bought 8 or 10 years ago now (wow, how time flies!) was great. -bill! From harry at educomps.com Fri Jun 17 12:33:50 2005 From: harry at educomps.com (Harry Youell) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 07:33:50 -0500 Subject: [OS:N:] Introducing high school students to the bash shell Message-ID: <002601c57338$d0b828e0$51caa8c0@educomps.local> The following book publish by Nelson may have material that can be used with the group. The material is highly structured with clear exercises to reinforce concepts. There book contains a wealth of other instructional material that may be useful to you. Course ILT: Linux+ ISBN: 1418841048 http://hed.nelson.com/products/productPage.aspx?isbn=1418841048 Regards, Harry Robert Citek wrote: "What book or other resource would people recommend for introducing high school students to the bash shell? These are students that are familiar with the pointy-clicky Windows environment, and they've picked up KDE using Knoppix pretty quickly. But KDE can be awkward at times and some things have to be done within a bash shell. I personally like the O'Reilly book "Learning the bash Shell," but perhaps that's a bit much to chew on for an intro, or not. Has anyone else introduced high school students to bash? Regards, - Robert" From jkinz at kinz.org Fri Jun 17 16:16:42 2005 From: jkinz at kinz.org (Jeff Kinz) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:16:42 -0400 Subject: [OT]Re:[OS:N:] bash intro for high school students? In-Reply-To: <42B220E6.4030300@cotse.com>; from bwiese@cotse.com on Thu, Jun 16, 2005 at 09:01:26PM -0400 References: <041c01c5724e$5542e4b0$b766979c@portal.com> <20050616090014.A30431@redline.comcast.net> <1118932462.5210.37.camel@gimly> <20050616104639.B30431@redline.comcast.net> <1118936029.5210.64.camel@gimly> <20050616133333.A452@redline.comcast.net> <42B220E6.4030300@cotse.com> Message-ID: <20050617121642.B452@redline.comcast.net> On Thu, Jun 16, 2005 at 09:01:26PM -0400, Brian Wiese wrote: >>> 175 lines of time and space wasting previous email deleted. Brian, in the future please trim and quote your emails appropriately. >Jeff -- please reexamine your 20 line reply to the 4 lines Jay took to >recommend Perl in minimal use, to complement an instruction in the Bash >shell. Brian, if you can show me where I mis-read what Jay was saying I will handsomely apologize to both of you. Lay it out for me point by point, using the actual quoted text in context and I'll be happy to study it fully. >I thought Jay put it quite nicely in asking "why are you so >adamant against Perl?" This is exactly the problem Brian. I was never adamant against Perl. But his "question" re-frames things to imply that I did take that position. This is similar to asking someone "So have you stopped beating your wife?" No matter what they answer, they are now scum in the eyes of anyone who heard the question. Jay was claiming I was adamant against Perl. Effectively this was an attempt (whether he realizes it or not) to paint me as a "Perl hater". Which would be an extremely unlikable, untenable, and false position. It is a favorite trick of trolls to claim that someone has said something that they never said, and then attack the person for that position. (Some people call this tactic "re-framing"). This behavior is extremely sleazy. It is an indirect form of an "Ad hominem" attack - eg, smearing the reputation of the debater. ("he is a Perl hater!") I will ALWAYS call a person on that type of behavior. If Jay did not mean to re-state what I was saying then he can say so, and I will retract what I said as well. Its possible that what Jay actually meant to say was that I was being adamant against Perl being taught to high school students. Which is also not true but is at least not a completely reversed statement of my position. If that was what he meant then he should have said that rather than what he did say. > -- to which you replied another near 50 lines > (and quoted lines) again in what I felt to be a Brian, If you go back into the archives on this list, and look up posts and responses to posts by Ed Kunin you will see that your "feelings" about this post are unwarranted. Frankly I was quite mild and reserved in my response to Jay considering his actions which were quite troll-like. >topic manner by turning the thread into your own critical rant, with >closing attempt to get "the last word in". I responded to Jay's attempt to re-write my position to something untenable and completely the reverse of my actual position. Your claim that I turned an entire thread into my own is absurd. One email does not make a thread. As for the "last word", by which I assume you mean my comment that I was finished with that thread. That was simply an indication that I felt I had invested too much time already and would not put in any more. After all, on the internet, No one ever has the last word. :-) Loyalty to a friend is a good thing, but unthinking endorsement is actually a long term liability. -- Jeff Kinz, Emergent Research, Hudson, MA. From rwcitek at alum.calberkeley.org Fri Jun 17 17:01:48 2005 From: rwcitek at alum.calberkeley.org (Robert Citek) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:01:48 -0500 Subject: [OS:N:] bash intro for high school students? In-Reply-To: <42B111DE.1040504@cotse.com> References: <42B111DE.1040504@cotse.com> Message-ID: <7E2255C6-CA64-42CE-A76A-32F29356E326@alum.calberkeley.org> On Jun 16, 2005, at 12:45 AM, Brian Wiese wrote: > The BEST source I have ever found, and still use it today... please > point others toward it: > > http://www.linuxcommand.org > > =) enjoy > Thanks, Brian. Another link someone else pointed out to me: http://linux.org.mt/article/terminal Regards, - Robert http://www.cwelug.org/downloads Help others get OpenSource software. Distribute FLOSS for Windows, Linux, *BSD, and MacOS X with BitTorrent From jay at scherrer.com Fri Jun 17 17:33:22 2005 From: jay at scherrer.com (Jay Scherrer) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:33:22 -0700 Subject: [OS:N:] Senior Center Message-ID: <1119029602.5219.27.camel@gimly> I just wanted to post an update about my project concerning computer classes for Senior citizens. Recoup: This Senior Activity Center has a computer lab which is designated as a public access point here in Seattle. As the lab stands it is filled with windows '98s and '95s. The offices all run Windows 2000's. The lead project manager "was" a strict Windows advocate. My project: Get open source programs excepted and taught. We've finally got a donated Linux server put into service running Fedora core 3. It took me a while to get Samba up and running, but yesterday we were able to copy files from the win 2000's. The big question of the day was: "Is a workgroup actually a domain?" After receiving the donated U2 server, our project manager has now brought in another donated computer with Linux already installed. It's funny but once someone had donated this server things started to roll. The director has designated a closet especially for the server room. My next question for the group is: Should I put this Linux computer box in the Lab next to these other windows boxes? Or should I use it for backup for the File server? Jay Scherrer From jkinz at kinz.org Fri Jun 17 18:10:52 2005 From: jkinz at kinz.org (Jeff Kinz) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 14:10:52 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] Senior Center In-Reply-To: <1119029602.5219.27.camel@gimly>; from jay@scherrer.com on Fri, Jun 17, 2005 at 10:33:22AM -0700 References: <1119029602.5219.27.camel@gimly> Message-ID: <20050617141052.C452@redline.comcast.net> On Fri, Jun 17, 2005 at 10:33:22AM -0700, Jay Scherrer wrote: > My next question for the group is: Should I put this Linux computer box > in the Lab next to these other windows boxes? Or should I use it for > backup for the File server? Can it do both? The load on a backup file server would be minimal, until it needs to become the primary fileserver. In a lightly loaded environment (browsing, email, & word processing), many systems have enough oomph to do both file serving and acting as a workstation. Having it out with the other windows boxes gives Linux more visibility with the users, and can give your project more visibility and PR at the center. If possible, you might want to reload it with Ubuntu, or perhaps edit the standard user's menus so that the number of possible choices don't overwhelm anyone who hasn't seen Linux before. Ubuntu menus are pretty stripped down and (IIRC) meaningfully labeled. much less intimidating for newcomers. -- Jeff Kinz, Emergent Research, Hudson, MA. From jay at scherrer.com Fri Jun 17 18:32:48 2005 From: jay at scherrer.com (Jay Scherrer) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 11:32:48 -0700 Subject: [OS:N:] Senior Center In-Reply-To: <20050617141052.C452@redline.comcast.net> References: <1119029602.5219.27.camel@gimly> <20050617141052.C452@redline.comcast.net> Message-ID: <1119033168.5219.36.camel@gimly> Jeff, Your right! I had never thought of that but since we are now networked, the box can be available for user learning and serve as a backup for the file server. Great idea! Would I use a cron job for backing up once the system is turned on? Because I don't think they will want the computers in the Lab left running like the main server. Jay Scherrer On Fri, 2005-06-17 at 14:10 -0400, Jeff Kinz wrote: > On Fri, Jun 17, 2005 at 10:33:22AM -0700, Jay Scherrer wrote: > > My next question for the group is: Should I put this Linux computer box > > in the Lab next to these other windows boxes? Or should I use it for > > backup for the File server? > > Can it do both? The load on a backup file server would be minimal, > until it needs to become the primary fileserver. In a lightly loaded > environment (browsing, email, & word processing), many systems have > enough oomph to do both file serving and acting as a workstation. > > Having it out with the other windows boxes gives Linux more visibility > with the users, and can give your project more visibility and PR at the > center. > > If possible, you might want to reload it with Ubuntu, or perhaps edit > the standard user's menus so that the number of possible choices don't > overwhelm anyone who hasn't seen Linux before. > > Ubuntu menus are pretty stripped down and (IIRC) meaningfully labeled. > much less intimidating for newcomers. > > From walkerk at uchastings.edu Fri Jun 17 21:01:27 2005 From: walkerk at uchastings.edu (Kent Walker) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 14:01:27 -0700 Subject: [OS:N:] Senior Center In-Reply-To: <1119029602.5219.27.camel@gimly> References: <1119029602.5219.27.camel@gimly> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050617134855.02e0a828@pericles.uchastings.edu> At 10:33 AM 6/17/2005, Jay Scherrer wrote: >[snip] >My next question for the group is: Should I put this Linux computer box >in the Lab next to these other windows boxes? Or should I use it for >backup for the File server? Congratulations on getting open source accepted in your lab. We mix Windows and Linux servers in our machine rooms. However, I have taken to replacing case badges on Linux systems with ones picturing Tux. This raises the visibility of Linux while helping assure the Windows-only users keep their fingers off. Here's an inexpensive source: http://www.scotgold.com/acatalog/ScotGold_Catalogue_Linux_Tux_Stuff_2.html --- Kent Walker - Datatel Analyst Information Technology - U.C. Hastings College of the Law 415-565-4635 From jkinz at kinz.org Fri Jun 17 23:15:44 2005 From: jkinz at kinz.org (Jeff Kinz) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 19:15:44 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] Senior Center In-Reply-To: <1119033168.5219.36.camel@gimly>; from jay@scherrer.com on Fri, Jun 17, 2005 at 11:32:48AM -0700 References: <1119029602.5219.27.camel@gimly> <20050617141052.C452@redline.comcast.net> <1119033168.5219.36.camel@gimly> Message-ID: <20050617191544.D452@redline.comcast.net> On Fri, Jun 17, 2005 at 11:32:48AM -0700, Jay Scherrer wrote: > Jeff, > Your right! I had never thought of that but since we are now networked, > the box can be available for user learning and serve as a backup for the > file server. Great idea! Would I use a cron job for backing up once the > system is turned on? Because I don't think they will want the computers > in the Lab left running like the main server. I have some machines which I only turn on during the day, they do play catchup for the cron jobs that are supposed to run in the pre-dawn hours. These can slow the machine down enough to drag down the user responsiveness a noticeable amount. How about an evening cron jobs with two steps: Step #1. rsyncs the machine just after the center closes for the day. Step #2, does a poweroff-shutdown (assumes power switch and BIOS support software control of power) -- Jeff Kinz, Emergent Research, Hudson, MA. From pquiring at geocities.com Mon Jun 20 17:01:59 2005 From: pquiring at geocities.com (Peter Quiring) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 13:01:59 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] Cloning technology Message-ID: <42B6F687.7050509@geocities.com> I have an idea (not sure if this is valid) but why don't we clone other technology just like Compaq and AMD has cloned IBM and Intel respectively. I seen this on TV once before. To legally "clone" something you need two groups of engineers. The first group takes a product and reverse-engineers it writting all findings into a document. Then you pass this document to another group that has never attempted to reverse-engineer the product. From the document made by the first group, the second group builds a clone of the product. This legal loophole has allowed Compaq to make the first IBM clone. With this, we could create clones of MPEG, and other technologies for the Open Source community. Anyways, just my thought. Peter Quiring From etienne.goyer at videotron.ca Mon Jun 20 18:09:17 2005 From: etienne.goyer at videotron.ca (Etienne Goyer) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 14:09:17 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] Senior Center In-Reply-To: <1119029602.5219.27.camel@gimly> References: <1119029602.5219.27.camel@gimly> Message-ID: <42B7064D.7040807@videotron.ca> Jay Scherrer wrote: > My project: Get open source programs excepted and taught. > We've finally got a donated Linux server put into service running Fedora > core 3. It took me a while to get Samba up and running, but yesterday we > were able to copy files from the win 2000's. The big question of the > day was: "Is a workgroup actually a domain?" No, it's not. But do you need a domain ? If you need to centralize authentication on a group of Windows machines, NT4-style domain are relatively straightforward to implement in Samba. I recommend you refer to "Samba by Examples", a Free book full of tutorials and available on the Samba web site. From chris at forevergalleries.com Mon Jun 20 19:01:19 2005 From: chris at forevergalleries.com (Chris Spencer) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 14:01:19 -0500 Subject: [OS:N:] Cloning technology In-Reply-To: <42B6F687.7050509@geocities.com> References: <42B6F687.7050509@geocities.com> Message-ID: <1119294079.19441.133.camel@localhost.localdomain> Patents. You can't reverse engineer around a patent. Besides, it's not like we don't have open codecs. They just aren't the accepted standard. If all users wanted and cared about open standards then all the issues would just go away. However, the only people with a vested enough interest to care are the content owners which are invariably concerned primarily with making money and keeping their content locked up so they can keep making money on it. -Chris On Mon, 2005-06-20 at 13:01 -0400, Peter Quiring wrote: > I have an idea (not sure if this is valid) but why don't we clone other > technology just like Compaq and AMD has cloned IBM and Intel respectively. > > I seen this on TV once before. To legally "clone" something you need > two groups of engineers. The first group takes a product and > reverse-engineers it writting all findings into a document. Then you > pass this document to another group that has never attempted to > reverse-engineer the product. From the document made by the first > group, the second group builds a clone of the product. This legal > loophole has allowed Compaq to make the first IBM clone. > > With this, we could create clones of MPEG, and other technologies for > the Open Source community. > > Anyways, just my thought. > > Peter Quiring > > _______________________________________________ > Subscription and Archive: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ > - > For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: > From cmacd at telecomottawa.net Wed Jun 22 02:04:43 2005 From: cmacd at telecomottawa.net (Charles MacDonald) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2005 22:04:43 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] Cloning technology In-Reply-To: <42B6F687.7050509@geocities.com> References: <42B6F687.7050509@geocities.com> Message-ID: <42B8C73A.5070900@TelecomOttawa.net> Peter Quiring wrote: The first group takes a product and > reverse-engineers it writting all findings into a document. Then you > pass this document to another group that has never attempted to > reverse-engineer the product. From the document made by the first > group, the second group builds a clone of the product. This legal > loophole has allowed Compaq to make the first IBM clone. > > With this, we could create clones of MPEG, and other technologies for > the Open Source community. That gets you by Copyright (sometimes- There is the "look and feel issue) (The Famous Apple wastebasket vs the Recycle bin) but not patents. If you build something that uses the method that is in a patent, you are liable to be sued, even if you are unaware that the patent has been granted. -- Charles MacDonald Stittsville Ontario cmacd at TelecomOttawa.net Just Beyond the Fringe http://www.TelecomOttawa.net/~cmacd/ No Microsoft Products were used in sending this e-mail. From mattfrye at gmail.com Thu Jun 23 03:34:55 2005 From: mattfrye at gmail.com (Matt Frye) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2005 23:34:55 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] LAMP for Nonprofits Message-ID: <7f1eacdd050622203424ae536c@mail.gmail.com> Just wanted to share this with the group... http://matt.linuxworld.com/lamp062205.htm Regards, Matt Frye