From linuxls02 at peaksystemperformance.com Sat Oct 15 13:08:16 2005 From: linuxls02 at peaksystemperformance.com (linuxls02) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 09:08:16 -0400 Subject: [OS:N:] Adding a partition Message-ID: <29EF89FACFC02548874398559218FB8A055D2F@tracydc11.psp.com> Good morning, I am trying to add a partition to my Linux system.? I am trying to create a partition on a drive that already has some smaller partitions on it.? I was able to create the partition, but when I try to mount it on /temp I get that /dev/sda3 is not a valid block device. Any help would be greatly appreciated Thank you Richard Tracy From jhansknecht at hanstech.com Sat Oct 15 13:23:05 2005 From: jhansknecht at hanstech.com (John Hansknecht) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 09:23:05 -0400 Subject: [ok-mail] [OS:N:] Adding a partition In-Reply-To: <29EF89FACFC02548874398559218FB8A055D2F@tracydc11.psp.com> References: <29EF89FACFC02548874398559218FB8A055D2F@tracydc11.psp.com> Message-ID: <200510150923.05356.jhansknecht@hanstech.com> On Saturday 15 October 2005 09:08, linuxls02 wrote: > Good morning, I am trying to add a partition to my Linux system.? I am > trying to create a partition on a drive that already has some smaller > partitions on it.? I was able to create the partition, but when I try to > mount it on /temp I get that /dev/sda3 is not a valid block device. > Did you create a file system on the partition with mkfs? Try man mkfs for details but a simple command would be mkfs -t ext3 /dev/sda3 -- Thanks, John From linuxls02 at peaksystemperformance.com Sat Oct 15 13:28:25 2005 From: linuxls02 at peaksystemperformance.com (linuxls02) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 09:28:25 -0400 Subject: [ok-mail] [OS:N:] Adding a partition Message-ID: <29EF89FACFC02548874398559218FB8A055D30@tracydc11.psp.com> I tried that and I get No such device or address while trying to determine filesystem size. Here is a list of sda in /dev brw-rw---- 1 root disk 8, 0 May 5 1998 sda brw-rw---- 1 root disk 8, 1 May 5 1998 sda1 brw-rw---- 1 root disk 8, 10 May 5 1998 sda10 brw-rw---- 1 root disk 8, 11 May 5 1998 sda11 brw-rw---- 1 root disk 8, 12 May 5 1998 sda12 brw-rw---- 1 root disk 8, 13 May 5 1998 sda13 brw-rw---- 1 root disk 8, 14 May 5 1998 sda14 brw-rw---- 1 root disk 8, 15 May 5 1998 sda15 brw-rw---- 1 root disk 8, 2 May 5 1998 sda2 brw-rw---- 1 root disk 8, 3 May 5 1998 sda3 brw-rw---- 1 root disk 8, 4 May 5 1998 sda4 brw-rw---- 1 root disk 8, 5 May 5 1998 sda5 brw-rw---- 1 root disk 8, 6 May 5 1998 sda6 brw-rw---- 1 root disk 8, 7 May 5 1998 sda7 brw-rw---- 1 root disk 8, 8 May 5 1998 sda8 brw-rw---- 1 root disk 8, 9 May 5 1998 sda9 -----Original Message----- From: open-source-now-list-bounces at redhat.com [mailto:open-source-now-list-bounces at redhat.com] On Behalf Of John Hansknecht Posted At: Saturday, October 15, 2005 9:23 AM Posted To: Red Hat Linux Conversation: [ok-mail] [OS:N:] Adding a partition Subject: Re: [ok-mail] [OS:N:] Adding a partition On Saturday 15 October 2005 09:08, linuxls02 wrote: > Good morning, I am trying to add a partition to my Linux system.? I am > trying to create a partition on a drive that already has some smaller > partitions on it.? I was able to create the partition, but when I try to > mount it on /temp I get that /dev/sda3 is not a valid block device. > Did you create a file system on the partition with mkfs? Try man mkfs for details but a simple command would be mkfs -t ext3 /dev/sda3 -- Thanks, John _______________________________________________ Subscription and Archive: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ - For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: From kyle at foobox.homelinux.net Sat Oct 15 16:57:41 2005 From: kyle at foobox.homelinux.net (Kyle Liddell) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 11:57:41 -0500 Subject: [OS:N:] Adding a partition In-Reply-To: <29EF89FACFC02548874398559218FB8A055D2F@tracydc11.psp.com> References: <29EF89FACFC02548874398559218FB8A055D2F@tracydc11.psp.com> Message-ID: <1129395461.12040.24.camel@athlon> On Sat, 2005-10-15 at 09:08 -0400, linuxls02 wrote: > Good morning, I am trying to add a partition to my Linux system. I am trying to create a partition on a drive that already has some smaller partitions on it. I was able to create the partition, but when I try to mount it on /temp I get that /dev/sda3 is not a valid block device. > > Any help would be greatly appreciated > > Thank you > > Richard Tracy > > > _______________________________________________ > Subscription and Archive: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ > - > For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: > This list really isn't the best place to ask technical support type questions, it's more of a political/social discussion forum. Off the top of my head, if you're needing help I might check out irc.freenode.net channels #linux or #linuxhelp or #your-distro-name-here if you like doing the IRC thing, and then the comp.* newsgroups if you like that, or your distro's help mailing list if it has one. If you ask in those places, there will be quite a bit more people listening that might know about your issue. From jay at scherrer.com Sat Oct 15 17:32:26 2005 From: jay at scherrer.com (Jay Scherrer) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 10:32:26 -0700 Subject: [OS:N:] Adding a partition In-Reply-To: <29EF89FACFC02548874398559218FB8A055D2F@tracydc11.psp.com> References: <29EF89FACFC02548874398559218FB8A055D2F@tracydc11.psp.com> Message-ID: <1129397546.3037.10.camel@gimly.scherco.local> What does your fstab look like. I think if you have successfully created the partition then a simple addition to your /etc/fstab should allow it to be mounted. Which brings to mind have tried mounting this new partition? Jay Scherrer On Sat, 2005-10-15 at 09:08 -0400, linuxls02 wrote: > Good morning, I am trying to add a partition to my Linux system. I am trying to create a partition on a drive that already has some smaller partitions on it. I was able to create the partition, but when I try to mount it on /temp I get that /dev/sda3 is not a valid block device. > > Any help would be greatly appreciated > > Thank you > > Richard Tracy > > > _______________________________________________ > Subscription and Archive: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ > - > For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: > From alfred.hovdestad at usask.ca Sat Oct 15 17:32:23 2005 From: alfred.hovdestad at usask.ca (Alfred Hovdestad) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 11:32:23 -0600 Subject: [ok-mail] [OS:N:] Adding a partition In-Reply-To: <29EF89FACFC02548874398559218FB8A055D30@tracydc11.psp.com> References: <29EF89FACFC02548874398559218FB8A055D30@tracydc11.psp.com> Message-ID: <43513D27.6000507@usask.ca> What is the output of fdisk -l /dev/sda? Was the new partition (/dev/sda3?) created as an ext3 partition? Alfred Hovdestad, RHCE University of Saskatchewan linuxls02 wrote: > I tried that and I get No such device or address while trying to determine filesystem size. > > Here is a list of sda in /dev > > brw-rw---- 1 root disk 8, 0 May 5 1998 sda > brw-rw---- 1 root disk 8, 1 May 5 1998 sda1 > brw-rw---- 1 root disk 8, 10 May 5 1998 sda10 > brw-rw---- 1 root disk 8, 11 May 5 1998 sda11 > brw-rw---- 1 root disk 8, 12 May 5 1998 sda12 > brw-rw---- 1 root disk 8, 13 May 5 1998 sda13 > brw-rw---- 1 root disk 8, 14 May 5 1998 sda14 > brw-rw---- 1 root disk 8, 15 May 5 1998 sda15 > brw-rw---- 1 root disk 8, 2 May 5 1998 sda2 > brw-rw---- 1 root disk 8, 3 May 5 1998 sda3 > brw-rw---- 1 root disk 8, 4 May 5 1998 sda4 > brw-rw---- 1 root disk 8, 5 May 5 1998 sda5 > brw-rw---- 1 root disk 8, 6 May 5 1998 sda6 > brw-rw---- 1 root disk 8, 7 May 5 1998 sda7 > brw-rw---- 1 root disk 8, 8 May 5 1998 sda8 > brw-rw---- 1 root disk 8, 9 May 5 1998 sda9 > -----Original Message----- > From: open-source-now-list-bounces at redhat.com [mailto:open-source-now-list-bounces at redhat.com] On Behalf Of John Hansknecht > Posted At: Saturday, October 15, 2005 9:23 AM > Posted To: Red Hat Linux > Conversation: [ok-mail] [OS:N:] Adding a partition > Subject: Re: [ok-mail] [OS:N:] Adding a partition > > > On Saturday 15 October 2005 09:08, linuxls02 wrote: > >>Good morning, I am trying to add a partition to my Linux system. I am >>trying to create a partition on a drive that already has some smaller >>partitions on it. I was able to create the partition, but when I try to >>mount it on /temp I get that /dev/sda3 is not a valid block device. >> > > Did you create a file system on the partition with mkfs? Try man mkfs for > details but a simple command would be > > mkfs -t ext3 /dev/sda3 > From linuxls02 at peaksystemperformance.com Sat Oct 15 21:39:40 2005 From: linuxls02 at peaksystemperformance.com (linuxls02) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 17:39:40 -0400 Subject: [ok-mail] [OS:N:] Adding a partition Message-ID: <29EF89FACFC02548874398559218FB8A055D34@tracydc11.psp.com> Here is the fdisk, Disk /dev/sda: 4293 MB, 4293632000 bytes 255 heads, 63 sectors/track, 522 cylinders Units = cylinders of 16065 * 512 = 8225280 bytes Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System /dev/sda1 * 1 6 48163+ 83 Linux /dev/sda2 7 30 192780 82 Linux swap / Solaris /dev/sda3 31 522 3951990 83 Linux Thank you Richard Tracy -----Original Message----- From: open-source-now-list-bounces at redhat.com [mailto:open-source-now-list-bounces at redhat.com] On Behalf Of Alfred Hovdestad Posted At: Saturday, October 15, 2005 1:32 PM Posted To: Red Hat Linux Conversation: [ok-mail] [OS:N:] Adding a partition Subject: Re: [ok-mail] [OS:N:] Adding a partition What is the output of fdisk -l /dev/sda? Was the new partition (/dev/sda3?) created as an ext3 partition? Alfred Hovdestad, RHCE University of Saskatchewan linuxls02 wrote: > I tried that and I get No such device or address while trying to determine filesystem size. > > Here is a list of sda in /dev > > brw-rw---- 1 root disk 8, 0 May 5 1998 sda > brw-rw---- 1 root disk 8, 1 May 5 1998 sda1 > brw-rw---- 1 root disk 8, 10 May 5 1998 sda10 > brw-rw---- 1 root disk 8, 11 May 5 1998 sda11 > brw-rw---- 1 root disk 8, 12 May 5 1998 sda12 > brw-rw---- 1 root disk 8, 13 May 5 1998 sda13 > brw-rw---- 1 root disk 8, 14 May 5 1998 sda14 > brw-rw---- 1 root disk 8, 15 May 5 1998 sda15 > brw-rw---- 1 root disk 8, 2 May 5 1998 sda2 > brw-rw---- 1 root disk 8, 3 May 5 1998 sda3 > brw-rw---- 1 root disk 8, 4 May 5 1998 sda4 > brw-rw---- 1 root disk 8, 5 May 5 1998 sda5 > brw-rw---- 1 root disk 8, 6 May 5 1998 sda6 > brw-rw---- 1 root disk 8, 7 May 5 1998 sda7 > brw-rw---- 1 root disk 8, 8 May 5 1998 sda8 > brw-rw---- 1 root disk 8, 9 May 5 1998 sda9 > -----Original Message----- > From: open-source-now-list-bounces at redhat.com [mailto:open-source-now-list-bounces at redhat.com] On Behalf Of John Hansknecht > Posted At: Saturday, October 15, 2005 9:23 AM > Posted To: Red Hat Linux > Conversation: [ok-mail] [OS:N:] Adding a partition > Subject: Re: [ok-mail] [OS:N:] Adding a partition > > > On Saturday 15 October 2005 09:08, linuxls02 wrote: > >>Good morning, I am trying to add a partition to my Linux system. I am >>trying to create a partition on a drive that already has some smaller >>partitions on it. I was able to create the partition, but when I try to >>mount it on /temp I get that /dev/sda3 is not a valid block device. >> > > Did you create a file system on the partition with mkfs? Try man mkfs for > details but a simple command would be > > mkfs -t ext3 /dev/sda3 > _______________________________________________ Subscription and Archive: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ - For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: From alfred.hovdestad at usask.ca Sat Oct 15 22:34:58 2005 From: alfred.hovdestad at usask.ca (Alfred Hovdestad) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 16:34:58 -0600 Subject: [ok-mail] [OS:N:] Adding a partition In-Reply-To: <29EF89FACFC02548874398559218FB8A055D34@tracydc11.psp.com> References: <29EF89FACFC02548874398559218FB8A055D34@tracydc11.psp.com> Message-ID: <43518412.9070200@usask.ca> Which version of Linux are you running? I assume a recent version of Red Hat but you never specified which version of Linux. Try building a file system without the ext3 (this builds an ext2 file system): /sbin/mkfs /dev/sda3 Secondly, what type of drive is /dev/sda? Is it a SCSI drive, or USB, or SATA, or ??? Not all ddrives called sda are SCSI drives. Look for sda in /var/log/dmesg: grep sda /var/log/dmesg Alfred Hovdestad, RHCE University of Saskatchewan linuxls02 wrote: > Here is the fdisk, > > Disk /dev/sda: 4293 MB, 4293632000 bytes > 255 heads, 63 sectors/track, 522 cylinders > Units = cylinders of 16065 * 512 = 8225280 bytes > > Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System > /dev/sda1 * 1 6 48163+ 83 Linux > /dev/sda2 7 30 192780 82 Linux swap / > Solaris > /dev/sda3 31 522 3951990 83 Linux > > Thank you > > Richard Tracy From wsoangel at gmail.com Sun Oct 16 04:07:01 2005 From: wsoangel at gmail.com (wso angel) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 12:07:01 +0800 Subject: [OS:N:] (no subject) Message-ID: From wsoangel at gmail.com Sun Oct 16 05:33:59 2005 From: wsoangel at gmail.com (wso angel) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 22:33:59 -0700 Subject: [OS:N:] wso angel wants to talk to you using Google Talk Message-ID: I've been using Google Talk and thought you might like to try it out. We can use it to call each other for free over the internet. 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Thanks, The Gmail and Google Talk Teams To learn more about Gmail and Google Talk, visit: http://mail.google.com/mail/help/benefits.html http://www.google.com/talk/intl/zh-CN/about.html (If clicking the URLs in this message does not work, copy and paste them into the address bar of your browser). * Not a Windows user? No problem. You can also connect to the Google Talk service from any platform using third-party clients (http://www.google.com/talk/otherclients.html). From linuxls02 at peaksystemperformance.com Sun Oct 16 11:26:46 2005 From: linuxls02 at peaksystemperformance.com (linuxls02) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 07:26:46 -0400 Subject: [ok-mail] [OS:N:] Adding a partition Message-ID: <29EF89FACFC02548874398559218FB8A055D35@tracydc11.psp.com> This is a SCSI drive. And I got my same error trying sbin/mkfs /sbin/mkfs /dev/sda3 mke2fs 1.35 (28-Feb-2004) mkfs.ext2: No such device or address while trying to determine filesystem size Here is my version information: 2.4.31-5tr #1 Fri Aug 26 12:16:23 CEST 2005 i686 i686 i386 GNU/L Inux Thank you very much for your help Richard Tracy -----Original Message----- From: open-source-now-list-bounces at redhat.com [mailto:open-source-now-list-bounces at redhat.com] On Behalf Of Alfred Hovdestad Posted At: Saturday, October 15, 2005 6:35 PM Posted To: Red Hat Linux Conversation: [ok-mail] [OS:N:] Adding a partition Subject: Re: [ok-mail] [OS:N:] Adding a partition Which version of Linux are you running? I assume a recent version of Red Hat but you never specified which version of Linux. Try building a file system without the ext3 (this builds an ext2 file system): /sbin/mkfs /dev/sda3 Secondly, what type of drive is /dev/sda? Is it a SCSI drive, or USB, or SATA, or ??? Not all ddrives called sda are SCSI drives. Look for sda in /var/log/dmesg: grep sda /var/log/dmesg Alfred Hovdestad, RHCE University of Saskatchewan linuxls02 wrote: > Here is the fdisk, > > Disk /dev/sda: 4293 MB, 4293632000 bytes > 255 heads, 63 sectors/track, 522 cylinders > Units = cylinders of 16065 * 512 = 8225280 bytes > > Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System > /dev/sda1 * 1 6 48163+ 83 Linux > /dev/sda2 7 30 192780 82 Linux swap / > Solaris > /dev/sda3 31 522 3951990 83 Linux > > Thank you > > Richard Tracy _______________________________________________ Subscription and Archive: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ - For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: From alfred.hovdestad at usask.ca Sun Oct 16 20:18:27 2005 From: alfred.hovdestad at usask.ca (Alfred Hovdestad) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2005 14:18:27 -0600 Subject: [ok-mail] [OS:N:] Adding a partition In-Reply-To: <29EF89FACFC02548874398559218FB8A055D35@tracydc11.psp.com> References: <29EF89FACFC02548874398559218FB8A055D35@tracydc11.psp.com> Message-ID: <4352B593.40503@usask.ca> Have you rebooted since you repartitioned the disk? If not, you can either reboot or run the partprobe command (man partprobe). partprobe /dev/sda Alfred linuxls02 wrote: > This is a SCSI drive. And I got my same error trying sbin/mkfs > /sbin/mkfs /dev/sda3 > mke2fs 1.35 (28-Feb-2004) > mkfs.ext2: No such device or address while trying to determine > filesystem size > > Here is my version information: > > 2.4.31-5tr #1 Fri Aug 26 12:16:23 CEST 2005 i686 i686 i386 GNU/L > Inux > > Thank you very much for your help > > Richard Tracy > > -----Original Message----- > From: open-source-now-list-bounces at redhat.com > [mailto:open-source-now-list-bounces at redhat.com] On Behalf Of Alfred > Hovdestad > Posted At: Saturday, October 15, 2005 6:35 PM > Posted To: Red Hat Linux > Conversation: [ok-mail] [OS:N:] Adding a partition > Subject: Re: [ok-mail] [OS:N:] Adding a partition > > Which version of Linux are you running? I assume a recent version of > Red Hat but you never specified which version of Linux. Try building a > file system without the ext3 (this builds an ext2 file system): > > /sbin/mkfs /dev/sda3 > > > > Secondly, what type of drive is /dev/sda? Is it a SCSI drive, or USB, > or SATA, or ??? Not all ddrives called sda are SCSI drives. Look for > sda in /var/log/dmesg: > > grep sda /var/log/dmesg > > Alfred Hovdestad, RHCE > University of Saskatchewan > > > > linuxls02 wrote: > >>Here is the fdisk, >> >>Disk /dev/sda: 4293 MB, 4293632000 bytes >>255 heads, 63 sectors/track, 522 cylinders >>Units = cylinders of 16065 * 512 = 8225280 bytes >> >> Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System >>/dev/sda1 * 1 6 48163+ 83 Linux >>/dev/sda2 7 30 192780 82 Linux swap / >>Solaris >>/dev/sda3 31 522 3951990 83 Linux >> >>Thank you >> >>Richard Tracy > > > _______________________________________________ > Subscription and Archive: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ > - > For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: > > > _______________________________________________ > Subscription and Archive: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ > - > For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: > From stuart at bmsi.com Mon Oct 17 05:17:52 2005 From: stuart at bmsi.com (Stuart D. Gathman) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 01:17:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [OS:N:] Adding a partition In-Reply-To: <20051016112516.93640734A0@hormel.redhat.com> Message-ID: At least in 2.4, fdisk changes are not seen by the kernel until the disk is closed and reopened. This means that all existing filesystems on the disk must be unmounted. With most setups, in practice this means that you cannot repartition without a reboot. I would guess that you haven't rebooted since running fdisk, and that sda1 and sda2 are still in use. I would complain (about not being able to add a partition without a reboot), but using LVM instead of partitions lets you do that and more. On Sun, 16 Oct 2005 open-source-now-list-request at redhat.com wrote: > This is a SCSI drive. And I got my same error trying sbin/mkfs > /sbin/mkfs /dev/sda3 > mke2fs 1.35 (28-Feb-2004) > mkfs.ext2: No such device or address while trying to determine > filesystem size > linuxls02 wrote: > > Here is the fdisk, > > > > Disk /dev/sda: 4293 MB, 4293632000 bytes > > 255 heads, 63 sectors/track, 522 cylinders > > Units = cylinders of 16065 * 512 = 8225280 bytes > > > > Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System > > /dev/sda1 * 1 6 48163+ 83 Linux > > /dev/sda2 7 30 192780 82 Linux swap / > > Solaris > > /dev/sda3 31 522 3951990 83 Linux -- Stuart D. Gathman Business Management Systems Inc. Phone: 703 591-0911 Fax: 703 591-6154 "Confutatis maledictis, flamis acribus addictis" - background song for a Microsoft sponsored "Where do you want to go from here?" commercial. From yurekli_sitki at yahoo.com Sat Oct 22 20:12:56 2005 From: yurekli_sitki at yahoo.com (Sitki Yurekli) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 13:12:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [OS:N:] Virus Protection? In-Reply-To: <20050916094354.A2132@redline.comcast.net> Message-ID: <20051022201256.88257.qmail@web30405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Jeff, I did it, If it works so this (again) late reply will appear on your screen fine..... .... Deleted, can be followed previous corresp. ---------- > In summary, I think what Sitki is saying here is that people desire > to > hack Windows rather than Linux because Windows is "Hidden" and > "Secret". > Yes, It is one of the most important, but not the unique initiative which makes someone to hack&crack (in the black hatted men terminology) or attack windows&pals, exactly It was the same thing that you got .... > In other words people want to do it because its "not permitted" or > Naughty and therefore attractive. > > And he claims this explains why Windows has so many more people/tools > attacking it compared to Linux? > > IFF my understanding of what Sitki has written is correct then > then what Rick Moen has written here: > http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/index.php?page=virus > > is something should be read, especially this passage: > Surely it has, I read it and agree on lot of points, especially tne one which made me think on it deliberately .... .... Deleted, can be followed previous corresp. ---------- > Rick response: > (.....) culture (....) ^^^^^^^ I think, there is too much more than a mailfull answer lays beyond this concept when it refers to win-lin cultures, am I right? > > I realize this does not directly address what I think is Sitki's > point. > > Sitki's point has some merit (I Think), but it applies > equally well to both Win and Linux - People are motivated to break > security on ALL platforms because of the challenge. This actually > equally to Win and Lin, but Win is simply much easier to break into. > Yes, you're completely right, and it's my understanding, if I'm not wrong with it, "living the feeling of challenge, be a successfull one and able to do something which others can imagine" kind of literature is a typical references for the well-known OS culture ;) ..... Just to clarify my point by taking above lines as a reference, I would like to ask again the same question, which one does attract someone by means of challenge, "the secret" or "the open"???? > > This is similar to why so many more people climb Mt Marcy than climb > Mt Everest. (Marcy Elevation: 5,344 ft , Everest Elevation: 29,035 > feet) > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Marcy > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mt_Everest > Not exactly like that, may be, following case can explain my thoughts on the same basis of metaphorical reference as you did use; think you don't know how high is Mt. Marcy and you know Mt. Everest is 29,035.. Which one does sense more challenging and attractive??? > > PS: Approx. an hour ago I was watching BBC discussion on something that I couldn't catch the exact topic but it seemed like to be on "technology, communication and welfare". I thought about such kind of "malicious" behaviours against daily technological habits while they're discussing on the human rights of free communication. Can we call these as irrational by isolating them irrespectively from their own origins (causes), those origins that we might be direct architects or initiatives with our own preferences, misconceptions or opportunism (and so onnnn....)... Cheers, Sitki Yurekli __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From jkinz at kinz.org Fri Oct 28 02:39:03 2005 From: jkinz at kinz.org (Jeff Kinz) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 22:39:03 -0400 Subject: back on topic... Re: [OS:N:] bash intro for high school students? In-Reply-To: <42B220E6.4030300@cotse.com>; from bwiese@cotse.com on Thu, Jun 16, 2005 at 09:01:26PM -0400 References: <041c01c5724e$5542e4b0$b766979c@portal.com> <20050616090014.A30431@redline.comcast.net> <1118932462.5210.37.camel@gimly> <20050616104639.B30431@redline.comcast.net> <1118936029.5210.64.camel@gimly> <20050616133333.A452@redline.comcast.net> <42B220E6.4030300@cotse.com> Message-ID: <20051027223903.A9475@redline.comcast.net> On Thu, Jun 16, 2005 at 09:01:26PM -0400, Brian Wiese wrote: I'm sorry Brian, I hadn't noticed your reply here until just now. Did you produce any counter points to the points I made? No. You quoted an entire email thread and then just pronounced a subjective judgment on the whole thing without responding to anything in thread itself except for things that you imagined or misinterpreted. An email thread is an online discussion. It should be based primarily on point and counter point. (hopefully logic based. ;-) ) When making a counter-point make sure that you are responding to something that was actually said. Making up something and then claiming that the other person said it is, and always has been sleazy. Your defense of Jay when he does this smears you just as heavily as it does him. It means you either did not actually read what was written (A possibility if a person is just skimming), or you are actually trying to assist him with the effort. Remember Jay said: > >On Thu, Jun 16, 2005 at 08:33:48AM -0700, Jay Scherrer wrote: > >>Jeff, > >>I don't know why you are so adamant against Perl? Please if you can find anywhere in this thread where I took a position that Perl was bad let me know. .. .. Just to shorten this I'll delete the 170 lines you didn't say anything in .. > > I found your comments a bit harsh, childish No, simply being direct and humorous to make sure there is no sting in it. > and off topic. Actually that's what you seem to be having trouble with here. >I thought Jay put it quite nicely in asking "why are you so adamant against Perl?" -- to which you replied another near 50 lines (and quoted lines) again in what I felt to be a harsh, childish, and off topic manner by turning the thread into your own critical rant, with closing attempt to get "the last word in". I'm sorry you feel that way Brian. But everything you've said above is totally subjective. Clearly we will always be of two minds about the use of humor in an email thread. I hope you get a chance to experience more of the world soon. -- Jeff Kinz, Emergent Research, Hudson, MA. speech recognition software may have been used to create this e-mail From daniel.r.kegel at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 08:58:30 2005 From: daniel.r.kegel at gmail.com (Dan Kegel) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 00:58:30 -0800 Subject: [OS:N:] Why doesn't your neighbor use Linux? Message-ID: I recently focused a bit on the question of why more people don't use Linux on the desktop. My take on the reasons is online now at http://kegel.com/linux/comfort/ If anyone here has time to read and comment on this, I'd love your feedback. Thanks, Dan From yurekli_sitki at yahoo.com Wed Nov 2 14:50:13 2005 From: yurekli_sitki at yahoo.com (Sitki Yurekli) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 06:50:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [OS:N:] Why doesn't your neighbor use Linux? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20051102145014.37708.qmail@web30411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Dan, with my full support on such questions, two small comments if you agree on them, One of them is the "Don Quixote" sketch that you prefer to this cute Penguin like to get a saddle on a mule rather than being "Don Quixote"'s horse. Yes you're right in some sense as Linux has such kind of an humble tendency in comparison with highly competition motivated Microsoft but it's really hard to think that Microsoft has a fight against wind-mills. Second point. Beside your bullets mentioned in your page, it might be better if there is a room for this well-known "digital divide" issue and Linux promising part on the solution (which surely strengthens Linux hand against Windows desktops) in relation with those sentences; In daily practice, Microsoft has an outstanding support to education with their special offers in prices to academic staff. But it's just a "profitable" marketing strategy which forms Windows-addicted users, accustomed to use computers "easily" by "user-friendly" designed interfaces and softwares ("Allienation" might be another issue should be disscussed on it, but....). Obvious that if they can get an advice from their teachers, advisors, lecturer on Windows more comfortable than Linux; if they need to prepare their assignments in Word-Excel or another component of "user-friendly" Office packages; than they have a very good reason to prefer and learn Windows rather than Linux. I'm asking why don't those staff of education want to learn and use Linux rather than Windows on theri desktops?? Presumably they are expected to be "problem-solving" and "analytical" personalities.. I know, this argumentation can't deserve this small bundle of bits but I try to keep as small as I noticed at the beginning. Cheers, Sitki Yurekli --- Dan Kegel wrote: > I recently focused a bit on the question of why more people > don't use Linux on the desktop. My take on the reasons is > online now at > http://kegel.com/linux/comfort/ > If anyone here has time to read and comment on this, > I'd love your feedback. > > Thanks, > Dan > > _______________________________________________ > Subscription and Archive: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ > - > For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: > > __________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From daniel.r.kegel at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 16:39:25 2005 From: daniel.r.kegel at gmail.com (Dan Kegel) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 08:39:25 -0800 Subject: [OS:N:] Why doesn't your neighbor use Linux? In-Reply-To: <20051102145014.37708.qmail@web30411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20051102145014.37708.qmail@web30411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 11/2/05, Sitki Yurekli wrote: > One of them is the "Don Quixote" sketch that you prefer to this cute > Penguin like to get a saddle on a mule rather than being "Don > Quixote"'s horse. Yes you're right in some sense as Linux has such kind > of an humble tendency in comparison with highly competition motivated > Microsoft but it's really hard to think that Microsoft has a fight > against wind-mills. Really, what I want there is an illustration of a penguin riding a tank, or a tank with penguin logos all over it, but I haven't had time to find one. > Second point.... > In daily practice, Microsoft has an outstanding support to education > with their special offers in prices to academic staff. But it's just a > "profitable" marketing strategy which forms Windows-addicted users, > accustomed to use computers "easily" by "user-friendly" designed > interfaces and softwares ("Allienation" might be another issue should > be disscussed on it, but....). Obvious that if they can get an advice > from their teachers, advisors, lecturer on Windows more comfortable > than Linux; if they need to prepare their assignments in Word-Excel or > another component of "user-friendly" Office packages; than they have a > very good reason to prefer and learn Windows rather than Linux. I'm > asking why don't those staff of education want to learn and use Linux > rather than Windows on theri desktops?? Presumably they are expected to > be "problem-solving" and "analytical" personalities.. I do kind of touch on this in the "peer support" section (where I link to "The Case for Linux in Universities") and maybe the "Pre-Adaptation" section, but yes, perhaps I could say it more explicitly. Thanks, Dan From mfioretti at mclink.it Thu Nov 3 13:05:14 2005 From: mfioretti at mclink.it (Marco Fioretti) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2005 14:05:14 +0100 (CET) Subject: [OS:N:] Linux in Italian Schools Message-ID: <1.3.200511031404.36301@mclink.it> Greetings, hoping they will be of interest and give others some useful ideas and contacts, here is a series of articles on how Gnu/Linux and Free Software are used in some Italian schools: http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/8309 http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/8507 http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/8508 http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/8657 The first had already been announced here, but every of them is about a school with more or less different problems and solutions Enjoy, Marco From mfioretti at mclink.it Fri Nov 11 13:58:12 2005 From: mfioretti at mclink.it (Marco Fioretti) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 14:58:12 +0100 (CET) Subject: [OS:N:] Somebody else who should use Free Software Message-ID: <1.3.200511111458.75926@mclink.it> Greetings, Deliberately ambiguous title to not spoil the surprise: http://www.newsforge.com/articles/05/11/03/1643243.shtml?tid=152&tid=31 enjoy, Marco From mfioretti at mclink.it Mon Nov 21 12:42:51 2005 From: mfioretti at mclink.it (Marco Fioretti) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 13:42:51 +0100 (CET) Subject: [OS:N:] Linux in Italian Schools, part 5 Message-ID: <1.3.200511211342.93734@mclink.it> Greetings, the title of this issue is "Slackware in Sardinia": http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/8677 Following the request of some readers of this and other fora where I announced the previous piece, there is now a list of all previous issues at the end of the article. Ciao, Marco Fioretti From rwcitek at alum.calberkeley.org Mon Nov 28 16:11:38 2005 From: rwcitek at alum.calberkeley.org (Robert Citek) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 10:11:38 -0600 Subject: [OS:N:] FLOSS on Windows for kids Message-ID: <4F996151-C756-435B-ABA4-DDC973634162@alum.calberkeley.org> Does a FLOSS for Windows CD exist that contains software geared towards kids? There's TheOpenCD[1] and many other sites[2] with lists of FLOSS for Windows. I was just wondering if there were any collections geared for kids (<12 years old). For now, yes, the requirement is that it must run under Windows. [1] http://theopencd.org/ [2] http://osswin.sourceforge.net/ Regards, - Robert http://www.cwelug.org/downloads Help others get OpenSource software. Distribute FLOSS for Windows, Linux, *BSD, and MacOS X with BitTorrent From jkinz at kinz.org Mon Nov 28 16:21:26 2005 From: jkinz at kinz.org (Jeff Kinz) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 11:21:26 -0500 Subject: [OS:N:] FLOSS on Windows for kids In-Reply-To: <4F996151-C756-435B-ABA4-DDC973634162@alum.calberkeley.org>; from rwcitek@alum.calberkeley.org on Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 10:11:38AM -0600 References: <4F996151-C756-435B-ABA4-DDC973634162@alum.calberkeley.org> Message-ID: <20051128112126.A12217@redline.comcast.net> On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 10:11:38AM -0600, Robert Citek wrote: > > Does a FLOSS for Windows CD exist that contains software geared > towards kids? Yes, Absolutely: http://gnuwin.epfl.ch/en/order.html Welcome aboard GNUWin II ! GNUWin II is a free software compilation for Windows. Software GNUWin II includes numerous programs, completely free, which cover a wide spectrum of uses. The complete application list, sorted by type, is available here: http://gnuwin.epfl.ch/apps/en/bestlist.html The software included in GNUWin is not shareware nor freeware, but original free software and Open Source software, for which the source code is available, and that is and will always be free (free both as in "free speech", and as in "free beer"). Most programs included in this CD are also available for free and Open Source operating systems, such as GNU/Linux, BSD, etc. > > There's TheOpenCD[1] and many other sites[2] with lists of FLOSS for > Windows. I was just wondering if there were any collections geared > for kids (<12 years old). For now, yes, the requirement is that it > must run under Windows. > > [1] http://theopencd.org/ > [2] http://osswin.sourceforge.net/ > > Regards, > - Robert > http://www.cwelug.org/downloads > Help others get OpenSource software. Distribute FLOSS > for Windows, Linux, *BSD, and MacOS X with BitTorrent > > _______________________________________________ > Subscription and Archive: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ > - > For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: > > -- Jeff Kinz, Emergent Research, Hudson, MA. speech recognition software may have been used to create this e-mail From rwcitek at alum.calberkeley.org Mon Nov 28 16:53:58 2005 From: rwcitek at alum.calberkeley.org (Robert Citek) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 10:53:58 -0600 Subject: [OS:N:] FLOSS on Windows for kids In-Reply-To: <20051128112126.A12217@redline.comcast.net> References: <4F996151-C756-435B-ABA4-DDC973634162@alum.calberkeley.org> <20051128112126.A12217@redline.comcast.net> Message-ID: On Nov 28, 2005, at 10:21 AM, Jeff Kinz wrote: > Yes, Absolutely: > > http://gnuwin.epfl.ch/en/order.html Unfortunately, "GNUWin II is not maintained anymore! All information on this pages might be outdated and/or inacurate. We recommend you to get the latest version of the presented software on their respective home pages." Also, while GNUWinII does have an impressive list of software, including software for kids, it is not geared towards kids. I could compile my own list. But if there's already one out there, I'd rather contribute to an existing project than create another one from scratch. Regards, - Robert http://www.cwelug.org/downloads Help others get OpenSource software. Distribute FLOSS for Windows, Linux, *BSD, and MacOS X with BitTorrent From jkinz at kinz.org Mon Nov 28 17:03:09 2005 From: jkinz at kinz.org (Jeff Kinz) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 12:03:09 -0500 Subject: [OS:N:] FLOSS on Windows for kids In-Reply-To: ; from rwcitek@alum.calberkeley.org on Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 10:53:58AM -0600 References: <4F996151-C756-435B-ABA4-DDC973634162@alum.calberkeley.org> <20051128112126.A12217@redline.comcast.net> Message-ID: <20051128120309.A11842@redline.comcast.net> On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 10:53:58AM -0600, Robert Citek wrote: > > On Nov 28, 2005, at 10:21 AM, Jeff Kinz wrote: > > Yes, Absolutely: > > > > http://gnuwin.epfl.ch/en/order.html > > Unfortunately, > > "GNUWin II is not maintained anymore! Hi Robert, all this means is that the content of the CD's has not been updated since the last release. A new release is in the works. Last year a computer teacher at the West Avenue elementary school (Hilton, NY) found this CD very helpful for giving kids free software instead of forcing them to only work at school where licensed copies of Non-free software could be found. Distributing this software to the students in that district was very well received. If you look through the software list you'll find much of it can be used by kids despite not necessarily being designated "for kids". This software compilation has been used mostly by the educational community. Also - notice the Logo - Distinctly oriented at kids. > Also, while GNUWinII does have an impressive list of software, > including software for kids, it is not geared towards kids. I could > compile my own list. But if there's already one out there, I'd > rather contribute to an existing project than create another one from > scratch. You can sign up as a developer for the next release of Gnu-Win "GNU-Win III". > > Regards, > - Robert > http://www.cwelug.org/downloads > Help others get OpenSource software. Distribute FLOSS > for Windows, Linux, *BSD, and MacOS X with BitTorrent > > _______________________________________________ > Subscription and Archive: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ > - > For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: > > -- Jeff Kinz, Emergent Research, Hudson, MA. speech recognition software may have been used to create this e-mail From rwcitek at alum.calberkeley.org Mon Nov 28 17:50:05 2005 From: rwcitek at alum.calberkeley.org (Robert Citek) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 11:50:05 -0600 Subject: [OS:N:] FLOSS on Windows for kids In-Reply-To: <20051128120309.A11842@redline.comcast.net> References: <4F996151-C756-435B-ABA4-DDC973634162@alum.calberkeley.org> <20051128112126.A12217@redline.comcast.net> <20051128120309.A11842@redline.comcast.net> Message-ID: <517CE8D5-347D-446A-AADD-84DFC192F22A@alum.calberkeley.org> On Nov 28, 2005, at 11:03 AM, Jeff Kinz wrote: > A new release is in the works. > Cool. How did you discover this? I tried browsing around the site but several of the links, including the link to the forums, are no longer working. Regards, - Robert http://www.cwelug.org/downloads Help others get OpenSource software. Distribute FLOSS for Windows, Linux, *BSD, and MacOS X with BitTorrent From jkinz at kinz.org Mon Nov 28 19:35:00 2005 From: jkinz at kinz.org (Jeff Kinz) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 14:35:00 -0500 Subject: [OS:N:] FLOSS on Windows for kids In-Reply-To: <517CE8D5-347D-446A-AADD-84DFC192F22A@alum.calberkeley.org>; from rwcitek@alum.calberkeley.org on Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 11:50:05AM -0600 References: <4F996151-C756-435B-ABA4-DDC973634162@alum.calberkeley.org> <20051128112126.A12217@redline.comcast.net> <20051128120309.A11842@redline.comcast.net> <517CE8D5-347D-446A-AADD-84DFC192F22A@alum.calberkeley.org> Message-ID: <20051128143500.B12217@redline.comcast.net> On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 11:50:05AM -0600, Robert Citek wrote: > > On Nov 28, 2005, at 11:03 AM, Jeff Kinz wrote: > > > A new release is in the works. > > > > Cool. How did you discover this? I tried browsing around the site > but several of the links, including the link to the forums, are no > longer working. On the home page, just under the "no longer maintained..." sentence it says "The next version is beeing developped!" which is a link that you can click on. (yes, it says "beeing developped!", I assume the doubled "e"'s and "p"'s are intended to stand for extra effort and persistent perseverance ....) > > Regards, > - Robert > http://www.cwelug.org/downloads > Help others get OpenSource software. Distribute FLOSS > for Windows, Linux, *BSD, and MacOS X with BitTorrent > > > _______________________________________________ > Subscription and Archive: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/open-source-now-list/ > - > For K12OS technical help join K12OSN: > > -- Jeff Kinz, Emergent Research, Hudson, MA. speech recognition software may have been used to create this e-mail From nbs at sonic.net Mon Nov 28 22:55:00 2005 From: nbs at sonic.net (Bill Kendrick) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 14:55:00 -0800 Subject: [OS:N:] FLOSS on Windows for kids In-Reply-To: <4F996151-C756-435B-ABA4-DDC973634162@alum.calberkeley.org> References: <4F996151-C756-435B-ABA4-DDC973634162@alum.calberkeley.org> Message-ID: <20051128225500.GA22239@sonic.net> On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 10:11:38AM -0600, Robert Citek wrote: > > Does a FLOSS for Windows CD exist that contains software geared > towards kids? I've never heard of one, but I think it'd be a great idea! -bill! From rwcitek at alum.calberkeley.org Tue Nov 29 01:34:03 2005 From: rwcitek at alum.calberkeley.org (Robert Citek) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 19:34:03 -0600 Subject: [OS:N:] FLOSS on Windows for kids In-Reply-To: <20051128225500.GA22239@sonic.net> References: <4F996151-C756-435B-ABA4-DDC973634162@alum.calberkeley.org> <20051128225500.GA22239@sonic.net> Message-ID: On Nov 28, 2005, at 4:55 PM, Bill Kendrick wrote: > On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 10:11:38AM -0600, Robert Citek wrote: >> Does a FLOSS for Windows CD exist that contains software geared >> towards kids? > > I've never heard of one, but I think it'd be a great idea! Actually, I'm beginning to think that what I really want is broadcatching[1], but I'm not sure. Ideally, I'd like something like podcasting[2] for Free/Libre/ OpenSource Software (FLOSS). Instead of using a podcatcher to subscribe to a podcast which distributes the latest version of audio files, I would use a flosscatcher to subscribe to a flosscast which distributes the latest version of FLOSS packages. For large files the flosscatcher can download torrent files which then can then be used by my favorite bittorrent[3] client. Then whenever I want to build a CD, I run my flosscatcher and assemble the downloaded packages into a CD. No more need to check every FLOSS project by hand. Using a flosscatcher would greatly automate and simplify the distribution of FLOSS. For example, I could set up a server to do the following: 1) in a crontab have the flosscatcher run every hour and deposit the torrent files in a common torrent folder 2) have a bittorrent (BT) client continuously monitoring the torrent folder. Whenever a new torrent arrives, the BT client automatically starts downloading and sharing the new file. The only manual step would be the initial set up and then periodically add new subscriptions. SourceForge almost has it right with RSS feeds for their project announcements. Unfortunately, they don't include a tag with a link to the latest version of files, like the "enclosure" tag for podcasts. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadcatching [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podcasting [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bittorrent Regards, - Robert http://www.cwelug.org/downloads Help others get OpenSource software. Distribute FLOSS for Windows, Linux, *BSD, and MacOS X with BitTorrent From mfioretti at mclink.it Thu Dec 1 12:18:53 2005 From: mfioretti at mclink.it (Marco Fioretti) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 13:18:53 +0100 (CET) Subject: [OS:N:] Linux in Italian Schools 6: GPL e-learning in Turin Message-ID: <1.3.200512011318.9219@mclink.it> As per subject: http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/8702 Enjoy, Marco From mfioretti at mclink.it Fri Dec 9 08:23:27 2005 From: mfioretti at mclink.it (M. Fioretti) Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 09:23:27 +0100 Subject: [OS:N:] Economics Researchers meet OpenDocument Message-ID: <20051209082327.GE6999@mclink.it> As per subject: http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/8727 Please especially note Giulio's comments on the sides of the problem where serious research still needs to be done and his availability to discuss such projects with other researchers, or at least to gather relevant data. Ciao, Marco -- Marco Fioretti mfioretti, at the server mclink.it Fedora Core 3 for low memory http://www.rule-project.org/ Human beings act intelligently only after they have exhausted the alternatives -- Abba Eban From mfioretti at mclink.it Tue Dec 13 19:24:38 2005 From: mfioretti at mclink.it (M. Fioretti) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 20:24:38 +0100 Subject: [OS:N:] Teaching Free SW to Adults in Bari, Italy Message-ID: <20051213192438.GD2669@mclink.it> "The final part of this series looks at how a group of GNU/Linux fans in Bari is teaching free and open-source software (FOSS) ethics and technology to adults in very different contexts, from high school teachers to long-time unemployed people, people on welfare, illegal workers, inmates, immigrants, everybody who couldn't attend grade school at the right age" http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/8734 HTH, Marco -- Marco Fioretti mfioretti, at the server mclink.it Fedora Core 3 for low memory http://www.rule-project.org/ Rules should encourage thinking, not discourage it. The New York Times Manual of Style and Usage From mfioretti at mclink.it Tue Dec 20 05:29:47 2005 From: mfioretti at mclink.it (M. Fioretti) Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 06:29:47 +0100 Subject: [OS:N:] Article: University Rectors in Italy Promoting Proprietary Software Message-ID: <20051220052947.GF2671@mclink.it> ...the Foundation of the Conference of Rectors of Italian Universities (CRUI) announced an initiative to allow all students in Italian universities "to use state of the art IT tools to study and prepare their exams", namely Microsoft Windows XP and Microsoft Office Professional Edition 2003 with discounts of up to 80%, because "thanks to innovative solutions, Microsoft Office 2003 revolutionizes computer usage" http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/8739 Ciao, Marco -- Marco Fioretti mfioretti, at the server mclink.it Fedora Core 3 for low memory http://www.rule-project.org/ Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. -Albert Einstein