<div dir="ltr">Whatever we decide on, I think it's important to ensure that +0 and -0 mean something. We want people who are skeptical (-0s) to raise their concerns and know they will have some influence. We even want those who are optimists but don't quite see the value yet (+0s) to ask questions and participate in improving the document. If those folks "in the middle" feel that their input won't matter, they are much less likely to participate.<div><br></div><div>And as observed by others, regardless of whether +/- 0 factors into whether a PUP gets adopted, it does reflect a sentiment in the group that is important to take seriously. If voting includes lots of -0's, that would indicate a lot of skepticism, and perhaps even discontent. You can imagine someone being unhappy about a change, but not wanting to stand up and be the only person to cast a veto. That person's -0 needs to factor in somehow.</div><div><br></div><div>For these reasons, I think a "veto-or-it-passes" model would discourage participation and make it too easy to end up with processes that don't meet a broad-enough range of needs.</div><div><br></div><div>And this is a good time for a reminder that PUPs are for process changes, which tend to affect large portions of our community, particularly developers. Having broad buy-in before making process changes is something we've strived for in the past, and I think it has served us well. "Obvious consensus" seems like a good way to describe that goal.</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 1:26 PM, Daniel Alley <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:dalley@redhat.com" target="_blank">dalley@redhat.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>We could use the metric that a PUP passes if there are no -1s and more than 1/3 of the team considers it an improvement (+0 or +1). If more than 2/3rds the team is voting -0, it probably needs more discussion.</div><div><br><br></div></div><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 11:49 AM, Bryan Kearney <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:bkearney@redhat.com" target="_blank">bkearney@redhat.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I liked what Brian said, pick the model. Default to change or not. If you guys decide to default to change, I agree with Ina that the proposal is a +1. So, what would all 0s mean?<br> <br> -- bk<span><br> <br> On 06/12/2017 11:43 AM, Ina Panova wrote:<br> </span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span> Having at least one +1 is not impartial approach just because the developer who , as you said, found the time for the research and writing down the proposal obviously will vote as +1 :)<br> <br> <br> <br> --------<br> Regards,<br> <br> Ina Panova<br> Software Engineer| Pulp| Red Hat Inc.<br> <br> "Do not go where the path may lead,<br> go instead where there is no path and leave a trail."<br> <br></span><span> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 5:35 PM, Austin Macdonald <<a href="mailto:amacdona@redhat.com" target="_blank">amacdona@redhat.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:amacdona@redhat.com" target="_blank">amacdona@redhat.com</a>>> wrote:<br> <br> This reminds me of the concept of a "Do-ocracy".<br> <br> If developers take the time to research and write up a proposal,<br> they have "done". It seems completely reasonable to default to the<br> opinion of the people that cared enough to do the work. If it isn't<br> the right decision, then someone must actively block it, simple as that.<br> <br> I think the rule should be "PUP passes if we have at least one +1<br> and no -1s".<br> <br> ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br> Pulp-dev mailing list<br></span> <a href="mailto:Pulp-dev@redhat.com" target="_blank">Pulp-dev@redhat.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:Pulp-dev@redhat.com" target="_blank">Pulp-dev@redhat.com</a>><br> <a href="https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/pulp-dev" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.redhat.com/mailman<wbr>/listinfo/pulp-dev</a><br> <<a href="https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/pulp-dev" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.redhat.com/mailma<wbr>n/listinfo/pulp-dev</a>><span><br> <br> <br> <br> <br> ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br> Pulp-dev mailing list<br> <a href="mailto:Pulp-dev@redhat.com" target="_blank">Pulp-dev@redhat.com</a><br> <a href="https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/pulp-dev" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.redhat.com/mailman<wbr>/listinfo/pulp-dev</a><br> <br> </span></blockquote><div class="m_2487455411636978058HOEnZb"><div class="m_2487455411636978058h5"> <br> ______________________________<wbr>_________________<br> Pulp-dev mailing list<br> <a href="mailto:Pulp-dev@redhat.com" target="_blank">Pulp-dev@redhat.com</a><br> <a href="https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/pulp-dev" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.redhat.com/mailman<wbr>/listinfo/pulp-dev</a><br> </div></div></blockquote></div><br></div> </div></div><br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br> Pulp-dev mailing list<br> <a href="mailto:Pulp-dev@redhat.com">Pulp-dev@redhat.com</a><br> <a href="https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/pulp-dev" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.redhat.com/<wbr>mailman/listinfo/pulp-dev</a><br> <br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><p style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:overpass-mono,monospace;font-size:10px;margin:0px!important;padding:0px!important"><span style="margin:0px!important;padding:0px!important">Michael</span> <span style="margin:0px!important;padding:0px!important">Hrivnak</span></p><p style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:overpass-mono,monospace;font-size:10px;margin:0px!important;padding:0px!important"></p><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:overpass-mono,monospace;font-size:10px;margin:0px!important;padding:0px!important"><span style="margin:0px!important;padding:0px!important">Principal Software Engineer</span><span style="margin:0px!important;padding:0px!important">, <span style="margin:0px!important;padding:0px!important">RHCE</span></span> </span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:overpass-mono,monospace;font-size:10px"></span><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:overpass-mono,monospace;font-size:10px;margin:0px!important;padding:0px!important"><p style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:overpass-mono,monospace;font-size:10px;margin:0px!important;padding:0px!important">Red Hat</p></div></div> </div>