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Re: Reworking the Keyboard management (spoke included)

Hi Adam,

May I correct you regarding visual accuracy?  Wikipaedia is a good source to use as a standard layout for cafr.

I need the Euro character and on the newer keyboards from Microsoft based laptops, it is at level 3 on the E keytop.

On the Canadian French Layout, it is not included, so, using the Gnome tweak-tool, I set the Euro to the E key. It initially worked and I was able to working with it for the initial December F20 release.

Now, 3 weeks later, it is no more. Some update nullified that tweak making it non-functional for cafr, however it does work for the USA English layout.

If you have Debian installed, check out the two layouts they visually present, and compare them to the Gnome versions. Quite a disparity.  If you do not have debian, refer to the following:
 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/42050559/cafrpng from my Dropbox.

It is a png file and it opens with image viewer. The latam layout is:  https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/42050559/latam.png.  compare that layout to what Gnome presents.

I am believing that Gnome was not developed for multi-nationals who write in two or three Languages. Tweak-tool is broken for Cafr, and probably for other non USA keyboard layouts as well. I will try the yum downgrade. I will check to determine if my bugzilla complaint was even responded to.

So for now, I am forced to switch to the English Layout to type the Euro, and to switch back. 

KDE does it right, by the way. My Latin American netbook has that extra keytop between the Z and the left shift.

Regarding keyboard selection after the initial screen. I add the second language layout and delete the USA English layout. (I use the USA English as the basis of my installation). The balance of the installation is completed with Anaconda respecting my second language layout. So, my request for spoke correction is to insure that layouts match what is defined for a country layout and match what is represented by layouts in Wikeapaedia. Add, but don't take away stuff.


Mr. Leslie Satenstein
An experienced Information Technology specialist.
Yesterday was a good day, today is a better day,
and tomorrow will be even better.
lsatenstein yahoo com

From: Adam Williamson <awilliam redhat com>
To: Leslie S Satenstein <lsatenstein yahoo com>; Discussion of Development and Customization of the Red Hat Linux Installer <anaconda-devel-list redhat com>
Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 3:04 PM
Subject: Re: Reworking the Keyboard spoke

On Thu, 2014-01-23 at 11:30 -0800, Leslie S Satenstein wrote:
> While addressing keyboard spoke, etc. There are a few points I would
> like to address.
> I would like to bring up a reference to the first Anaconda beta
> version.  On the opening screen where all the languages were listed,
> there was no default keyboard established. The default was later
> selected after choosing the default language. Ergo, we chose the
> language, then on a following spoke we chose the keyboard layout to be
> used for installation. An implicit default was English.
> Regarding keyboard layouts.
> Many newer keyboards(1995) are of a PC105 model, with an extra
> physical key between the Z and the left Shift Key (Qwerty layout) At
> different times I use two keyboards, cafr and Latam. Old keyboards
> were PC101.
> CAFR . EURO symbol should default to the E key. There is currently no
> Euro symbol on this layout. This is a good location, as many boards
> have the E keytop embossed with that symbol and it is already
> appearing along side the E key  on laptops sold in Quebec Canada. The
> key between Z and left shift contains regular case «» and  on shift,
> an ° 

None of this is remotely relevant to the topic at hand. We are
discussing the *selection* of keyboard layouts, not the *definition* of
keyboard layouts.

Fedora does not involve itself in the *definition* of keyboard layouts.
Our keyboard layouts come from the Xkb project -
http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/XKeyboardConfig/ - and the kbd
project - www.kbd-project.org . Those links should provide the
appropriate channels for feedback on details of the existing layouts.
Fedora intentionally does not second-guess the upstreams in these areas,
as they are considered to be the domain experts.

> The missing key bug has been in three successive bugzilla error
> reports (F18,19,20), repeated with each release since Fedora 18.

You are reporting it to the wrong people.

> Latam  (Latin America) and Canadian French (ca(fr). These keyboards
> have the extra keytop between the Z key and the left shift key. This
> is not shown on the keyboard layout after Fedora 17. (It was OK with
> F17, as it was shown therein, but not with later Fedora versions.)

This is also not relevant to the topic at hand, but for the record, it
is essentially an impossible problem to solve.

There are different keyboard layout preview rendering widgets. Some just
assume a PC104 layout. Some respect the 'XkbModel' setting to determine
which layout to paint - note that in almost all cases, this is the
*only* function of the XkbModel setting in the modern day.

There is, as far as I'm aware, no mechanism by which a keyboard can
signal to the OS what its physical layout is, so we cannot reliably
determine what physical layout your keys have and set 'XkbModel'
correctly so the preview is rendered correctly. We *could* start trying
to guess at the most common physical layout for each logical layout - as
you suggest above, most keyboards for which people would select the
'ca(fr)' logical layout have the PC105 physical layout - but this would
be a huge odyssey of data collection for a very trivial benefit
(correctly rendered keyboard previews), and still would not be 100%
correct, as people can and frequently do use "PC105" layouts on "PC104"
keyboards and vice versa.

anaconda would not be the place, or the team, to do such collection if
it were to be done: the natural place for it would be langtable -
https://github.com/mike-fabian/langtable .

To be clear, the only issue here is the rendering of illustrations of a
keyboard's physical layout. No Xkb or kbd logical layout's behaviour
changes depending on the setting of the XkbModel parameter, to my
knowledge. The 'extra key' will still work and do what the logical
layout configures it to do, whatever that parameter is set to, just as
the Super keys still work if it's set to 101 or 102.

Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net

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