Alpha Emulators
Alexey Chupahin
alex_vms at gawab.com
Thu Dec 18 19:53:52 UTC 2008
I've tested some emulators.
Even you start PersonalAlpha emulator (the best of), you get DEC
3000 emulated hardware.
With perfomance equal or less of that DEC3000 nearly 133Mhz.
Any 164-based machines should be much faster.
About Alpha team - in Linux (I mostly work in OpenVMS) I usually
work with Gentoo too, but I think Fedora for Alpha should be
also. And we should co-ordinate with Gentoo and Debian teams to
resolve problems with gcc, glibc, Xorg, kernel.
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. The State of Alpha Linux (Matt Turner)
> 2. Re: The State of Alpha Linux (Dialup Jon Norstog)
> 3. Re: The State of Alpha Linux (Matt Turner)
> 4. Re: The State of Alpha Linux (Alexander Huemer)
> 5. Re: How to upload compiled packages? (Sergey Tikhonov)
> 6. Re: How to upload compiled packages? (Jeff Garzik)
> 7. Re: How to upload compiled packages? (Alan Young)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 13:28:17 -0500
> From: "Matt Turner" <mattst88 at gmail.com>
> Subject: The State of Alpha Linux
> To: "Linux on Alpha processors" <axp-list at redhat.com>
> Message-ID:
> <b4198de60812141028v4f94e303k2a60340bffa0110a at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> The State of Alpha Linux
>
> We're all subscribed to this list because we use a dying platform. We
> do what we can to keep it going, but in recent months the State of
> Alpha Linux has been deteriorating at an accelerated rate.
>
> Let me outline some issues facing us today:
> 1.We have no glibc/Alpha maintainer [1]
> 2.Kernel development for Alpha is comatose
> 3.We can't run modern X.Org [2]
>
> To make things worse, for such a small group of users, we're much too
> segregated and disorganized. For instance, how many (of the only four)
> Gentoo/Alpha maintainers are subscribed to this list? Debian/Alpha?
> How many realized we were without a glibc maintainer? That we can't
> use X.Org 7.4?
>
> If this trend continues, we will completely first lose X.Org support.
> I even had an X.Org developer tell me he didn't care [about Alpha
> support] when I pinged him about an Alpha bug he had originally filed
> [3]!
>
> We'll later lose glibc support. As it stands now, Alpha isn't even in
> the main tree [4]. I'm not sure what version Debian ships, but Gentoo
> is 3 versions behind at 2.6.1. Newer than that and the test suite
> causes a hard lock [5]. How much longer is it going to be before 2.6
> is incompatible with the latest version and we begin to lose the
> ability to use other modern software?
>
> While we may never lose kernel support, it will certainly begin to lag
> behind other platforms more and more. Bugs begin to take longer and
> longer to be fixed [6]. Release candidate kernels as late in the cycle
> as rc-8 of the 2.6.28 series fail to compile on Alpha [7]. This is
> definitely a worrying sign.
>
> It is certainly expected that as a platform ages, it slowly loses its
> users and developers. In 1999, many average users knew or we're
> interested in learning Alpha assembly language, were interested in
> support for Alpha among Free Software, and were interested in
> programming for the platform. Obviously this cannot be the case today.
> We don't expect that it should.
>
> We, the ones who do wish to see our platform live on, even if only a
> little longer, should focus on fixing what we can and maintaining what
> we already have.
>
> Whether Fedora adds Alpha as a Second Tier Architecture is trivial in
> comparison to these issues. We should focus on making sure we have
> working software for Fedora/Alpha before we consider how to properly
> market it.
>
> We, the small band of Alpha users, need to work together. We have the
> same problems, why should we work separately on them?
>
> In order to facilitate better communication among Alpha users,
> developers, please use the Alpha IRC channel on Freenode, #alpha, and
> the Wiki [8]. If you have unused hardware that may be useful to
> developers, consider donating it.
>
>>From here, it's up to us to find solutions to these problems.
>
> Ideas and Suggestions requested.
>
> Matt Turner
>
> [1] http://sourceware.org/ml/libc-alpha/2008-12/msg00009.html
> [2] http://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=17801
> http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10893
> [3] http://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=19026
> [4] http://sources.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=6896
> [5] Actually a kernel problem,
> http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=205099
> [6] http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10893
> [7] http://lkml.org/lkml/2008/10/29/69
> [8] http://alphalinux.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 14:07:07 -0700
> From: "Dialup Jon Norstog" <thursday at allidaho.com>
> Subject: Re: The State of Alpha Linux
> To: Linux on Alpha processors <axp-list at redhat.com>
> Message-ID: <20081214204732.M41905 at allidaho.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Original Message -----------
> From: "Matt Turner" <mattst88 at gmail.com>
> To: "Linux on Alpha processors" <axp-list at redhat.com>
> Sent: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 13:28:17 -0500
> Subject: The State of Alpha Linux
>
>> The State of Alpha Linux
>>
>> We're all subscribed to this list because we use a dying platform. We
>> do what we can to keep it going, but in recent months the State of
>> Alpha Linux has been deteriorating at an accelerated rate.
>>
>>
>
> Matt, & list:
>
> I've seen this day coming for a while. The last usable distro was FC3 and we
> only got that because a couple of Russians gave up sleeping for a year. If,
> as you say the basic libraries are becoming unusable, maybe the thing to do is
> put together one really good, working Aplpha distro with clean, usable
> libraries and sources. A clean build of OpenOffice would be nice!
>
> What the Alpha architecture did was give the Linux community a platform to
> develop 64-bit Linux well ahead of the shift to x86-64 by AMD and Intel. MS
> killed off its 64-bit programming team and still hasn't caught up. What is
> the percentage of 64-bit PCs running a 64-bit Windows OS?
>
> I will probably keep using my Alpha machine until it goes up in smoke. It is
> my main, day-to-day computer and I also run Tru64 Unix because I've got the
> DEC/Alpha version of ArcInfo.
>
> I've got FC9 running on PC and just put a backdoor installation of FC10 on my
> PC at work. I'm not sold on these distros: I'd like to figure out how to log
> on the desktop as root, I miss the superuser file manager, I used to like to
> put a different picture on each of my KDE desktops, stuff like that. NTFS
> mounts are handled better now .. what else? Do we really need the latest and
> greatest?
>
> just myy thoughts.
>
> jn
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 16:55:27 -0500
> From: "Matt Turner" <mattst88 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: The State of Alpha Linux
> To: "Linux on Alpha processors" <axp-list at redhat.com>
> Message-ID:
> <b4198de60812141355w6e261b1ds70ff4a1af62c6189 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Hi,
>
>> I've seen this day coming for a while. The last usable distro was FC3 and we
>> only got that because a couple of Russians gave up sleeping for a year. If,
>> as you say the basic libraries are becoming unusable, maybe the thing to do is
>> put together one really good, working Aplpha distro with clean, usable
>> libraries and sources. A clean build of OpenOffice would be nice!
>
> I'd obviously recommend Gentoo, but that's just me. Since, for better
> or for worse, you compile everything, you're given more flexibility
> with optional dependencies. Plus, there's none of this finding
> EV5/EV56/PCA56/EV6 optimized binaries, since you specify how they're
> compiled. Obviously, it's more painful for slower boxes though.
>
> Anyway, I don't mean to advertise (too much :).
>
>> mounts are handled better now .. what else? Do we really need the latest and
>> greatest?
>
> Latest and greatest isn't exactly what I'm after. I'd be happy knowing
> we were always going to be two revisionr behind. Unfortunately, when
> X.Org leaves us behind, there's no guarantee we can get the relevant
> bugs fixed to get ourselves caught up.
>
> I try to do my part, but there are some things I'm not experienced
> with and therefore unable to fix. The kernel bugs for instance. We
> need someone like Ivan Kokshaysky, Richard Henderson, or Jay Estabrook
> to step up fix those issues.
>
> I'm not quite sure what happened to the glibc Alpha stuff. I thought
> Richard Henderson was the maintainer...
>
> Matt Turner
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 00:59:03 +0100
> From: Alexander Huemer <alexander.huemer at sbg.ac.at>
> Subject: Re: The State of Alpha Linux
> To: Linux on Alpha processors <axp-list at redhat.com>
> Message-ID: <49459DC7.2060202 at sbg.ac.at>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Matt Turner wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>>> I've seen this day coming for a while. The last usable distro was FC3 and we
>>> only got that because a couple of Russians gave up sleeping for a year. If,
>>> as you say the basic libraries are becoming unusable, maybe the thing to do is
>>> put together one really good, working Aplpha distro with clean, usable
>>> libraries and sources. A clean build of OpenOffice would be nice!
>>>
>>
>> I'd obviously recommend Gentoo, but that's just me. Since, for better
>> or for worse, you compile everything, you're given more flexibility
>> with optional dependencies. Plus, there's none of this finding
>> EV5/EV56/PCA56/EV6 optimized binaries, since you specify how they're
>> compiled. Obviously, it's more painful for slower boxes though.
>>
>> Anyway, I don't mean to advertise (too much :).
>>
>>
>>> mounts are handled better now .. what else? Do we really need the latest and
>>> greatest?
>>>
>>
>> Latest and greatest isn't exactly what I'm after. I'd be happy knowing
>> we were always going to be two revisionr behind. Unfortunately, when
>> X.Org leaves us behind, there's no guarantee we can get the relevant
>> bugs fixed to get ourselves caught up.
>>
>> I try to do my part, but there are some things I'm not experienced
>> with and therefore unable to fix. The kernel bugs for instance. We
>> need someone like Ivan Kokshaysky, Richard Henderson, or Jay Estabrook
>> to step up fix those issues.
>>
>> I'm not quite sure what happened to the glibc Alpha stuff. I thought
>> Richard Henderson was the maintainer...
>>
>> Matt Turner
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> axp-list mailing list
>> axp-list at redhat.com
>> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/axp-list
>>
> i recommend gentoo too.
> it has very good support for alpha based systems, most packages in the
> portage tree (the gentoo package repository) are available for alpha
> based systems out of the box.
> it is very easy to apply (possibly self made) patches to software,
> because everything is compiled on the local machine anyway.
> in case you have resources to provide, join the gentoo community.
>
> --
> kind regards
> alex
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 11:13:51 +0300
> From: Sergey Tikhonov <tsv at solvo.ru>
> Subject: Re: How to upload compiled packages?
> To: Linux on Alpha processors <axp-list at redhat.com>
> Message-ID: <494611BF.1050503 at solvo.ru>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Oliver Falk wrote:
>
> Hello everyone,
>>
>> Alexey Chupahin wrote:
>>> I've compiled about first ten packages listed as *missing* or
>>> *blacklisted*, including clisp and maxima.
>>
>> It would be great if you could upload the SRPMS to
>> ftp://ftp.linux-kernel.at/uploads
>>
>> If you plan to do more, I can provide you with an account on BUILDSYS;
>> As Jay has...
> I can't send much time on Alpha hacking anymore (as it used to be), but
> I am trying to dedicate some time to it anyway -
> I am still interested of keeping support for mono on Alpha. (I sent
> patches to Jay to get it working on FC8).
> What is really makes me harder to participate (even as not active as it
> was) is the current build system. I used to have my own
> build system there I could built package in any way I wanted (even break
> dependency if I needed) and focus on important core package,
> rather than extras. I am not sure how it is possible with koji. Another
> thing - visibility of current problems with the distro. I the current
> list of missing packages (fc9) there are a lot of ones that never will
> be used on Alpha (this is my guess). I would like to see core packages
> and Extras separated.
>
> A small howto how to work with current build system would be nice too (I
> really don't have time to understand its internals). I would like to
> understand how to do routine tasks:
> - see what packages are holding builds
> - see how to make them "not buildable" temporary
> - break dependency and put comment (next time I would restore build
> dependency)
> - how to upload changes (I guess I need upload SRPMS)
> - how to change build priority of packages
> - how to mark package that is being carrying on by someone
>
> For example I would love to use more powerful Alphas than I have
> currently - I takes hours for example to get the build errors of glibc, gcc.
>
> Regards,
>
> --
> Sergey Tikhonov
>
> Head, R&D department
> Solvo Ltd.
> Saint-Petersburg, Russia
> http://www.solvo.ru
> tsv at solvo.ru
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 03:19:23 -0500
> From: Jeff Garzik <jeff at garzik.org>
> Subject: Re: How to upload compiled packages?
> To: Linux on Alpha processors <axp-list at redhat.com>
> Message-ID: <4946130B.8020507 at garzik.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Sergey Tikhonov wrote:
>> Oliver Falk wrote:
>>
>> Hello everyone,
>>>
>>> Alexey Chupahin wrote:
>>>> I've compiled about first ten packages listed as *missing* or
>>>> *blacklisted*, including clisp and maxima.
>>>
>>> It would be great if you could upload the SRPMS to
>>> ftp://ftp.linux-kernel.at/uploads
>>>
>>> If you plan to do more, I can provide you with an account on BUILDSYS;
>>> As Jay has...
>> I can't send much time on Alpha hacking anymore (as it used to be), but
>> I am trying to dedicate some time to it anyway -
>> I am still interested of keeping support for mono on Alpha. (I sent
>> patches to Jay to get it working on FC8).
>> What is really makes me harder to participate (even as not active as it
>> was) is the current build system. I used to have my own
>> build system there I could built package in any way I wanted (even break
>> dependency if I needed) and focus on important core package,
>> rather than extras. I am not sure how it is possible with koji. Another
>> thing - visibility of current problems with the distro. I the current
>> list of missing packages (fc9) there are a lot of ones that never will
>> be used on Alpha (this is my guess). I would like to see core packages
>> and Extras separated.
>>
>> A small howto how to work with current build system would be nice too (I
>> really don't have time to understand its internals). I would like to
>> understand how to do routine tasks:
>> - see what packages are holding builds
>> - see how to make them "not buildable" temporary
>> - break dependency and put comment (next time I would restore build
>> dependency)
>> - how to upload changes (I guess I need upload SRPMS)
>> - how to change build priority of packages
>> - how to mark package that is being carrying on by someone
>
> Are there any alpha emulators lying around?
>
> At a certain point, with older hardware, it becomes faster to build on a
> simulator...
>
> A standardized build environment inside a simulator might be useful to
> people wanting to keep alpha alive.
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 15:11:34 -0700
> From: Alan Young <ayoung at teleport.com>
> Subject: Re: How to upload compiled packages?
> To: Linux on Alpha processors <axp-list at redhat.com>
> Message-ID: <49497916.1040008 at teleport.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Jeff Garzik wrote:
>> Are there any alpha emulators lying around?
>
> There are two that I'm aware of.
>
> Qemu has apparently has some kind of beginnings of alpha emulation.
> It's at http://bellard.org/qemu .
>
> And there's a es40 emulator that has pages at http://www.es40.org and
> http://sourceforge.net/projects/es40 . According to it's wiki, this one
> apparently can boot OpenVMS.
>
> I haven't tried either as I still have a 264DP. :-)
>
> Alan
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
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>
> End of axp-list Digest, Vol 55, Issue 7
> ***************************************
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