Sonar GNU/Linux merges with Vinux
Tobias Vinteus
tobvin at algonet.se
Tue Apr 18 13:45:21 UTC 2017
Hi,
What motivated their choice of Fedora over, sayy, Ubuntu? What was it's
selling points for the devs?
On Thu, 16 Mar 2017, Tony Baechler wrote:
> Be warned that my comments are most likely unpopular and controversial. See
> below. I'm not really interested in discussing this further, so don't expect
> a response.
>
> On 3/15/2017 3:30 AM, Kyle wrote:
>> Sonar merges with the Vinux Project.
>
>
> Well, this is indeed unfortunate. First, it was never said what "common
> goals" were discussed. Granted I don't closely follow either project, but I'm
> disappointed and surprised to see Vinux heading towards a Fedora base. Red
> Hat has stated many, even numerous times, both in their inaction and in
> published docs on their sites, that they have no or very little interest in
> core accessibility. Yes, I realize this list is hosted by Red Hat, but
> honestly, anyone can host a mailing list nowadays, so to me, that doesn't
> count. Look at groups.io, Yahoo Groups, etc. Unlike Debian, Ubuntu and
> Slackware, to the best of my knowledge, Fedora has never made their installer
> accessible out of the box. I understand that now their installer talks with
> Orca, but I think that's more by accident than anything. Fedora does claim to
> have accessibility with the Gnome desktop though, but I don't think one can
> easily use Speakup and a text console to do the install. I could very well be
> wrong on this as I quit following Fedora years ago for the above reasons.
> There were projects like Speakup Modified (now dead I think), but they were
> community projects with no support from Fedora developers. Presumably, since
> Sonar is being folded in, they will use a distro other than Fedora. In the
> long term, I think Fedora would be a very bad idea for many reasons which I
> won't go into here.
>
> I think it's a great idea for there to be an a11y, or even blindness-specific
> nonprofit to be formed. I would even say it's very long overdue. If Apache,
> Mozilla, the Linux kernel and many others can do it, there is no reason why
> the blind community can't. I would even suggest moving this and other Linux
> lists to that organization. Yes, I realize that nonprofit and not-for-profit
> are different. I would push to make it a U.S based nonprofit. Start a
> Kickstarter or other fundraising compaign. I would donate to it. As much as
> Facebook doesn't support accessibility and generally is against the open
> source spirit, a page on there, Twitter, Tumblr, etc would be a very good
> idea. There needs to be a strong publicity team to write articles for both
> the blindness magazines (ACB Braille Forum, etc) and the mainstream Linux
> magazines like LWN. Amazingly, there has been almost no mention of Speakup in
> the mainstream Linux community at all. I think a fair number of companies and
> developers don't take us seriously because they don't know we exist and that
> blind people not only can and do use computers but in fact can and do use
> Linux on a regular basis. I just got an email from someone asking if I'm
> blind, how do I read and write? There is still a huge amount of ignorance out
> there. I realize this isn't strictly a Linux accessibility issue, but what
> leads to the next great breakthrough might be started by a developer seeing
> that blind people want an accessible desktop like everyone else. With an
> actual organization, KDE could be pushed for accessibility and developers
> from the organization could help. In other words, not only does it need to be
> a nonprofit a11y organization who works with other developers and develops
> software, but it also needs to be an advocacy and lobbyist group to demand
> big and small companies make their software accessible.
>
> However, I see a huge flaw in the merger. I think we're going down the same
> path as Windows screen readers. I'm not saying that Vinux would go
> commercial. What I'm saying is I fear they would end up like a big company
> who shall remain nameless. There are other screen readers out there such as
> NVDA, but very few people take them seriously because this big company has
> almost a monopoly. Granted, Linux is still far from having a huge share of
> the market, but if it should reach the 90% or even 50% point some day, it
> would be very unfortunate for rehab agencies and employers to force people to
> use Vinux because that's the only specialized distro for the blind. What
> would be much better is to work with the mainstream distros like Debian and
> Ubuntu to fix accessibility problems. Ubuntu is the most popular distro on
> the desktop. While accessibility is good, it has problems. When 16.04 came
> out, Orca was broken. I believe there are only a small number (no more than a
> few) people on the accessibility team. Debian could also desperately use
> help. It would look much better for the blind community if an organization
> donated their time and talents to auditing the packages in Debian and either
> fixing those with accessibility bugs which could easily be fixed or working
> with the upstream developers, providing patches and consulting with them to
> make their packages more accessible. To me, it seems like a huge waste of
> time to put a ton of energy into beating Fedora, Ubuntu or whatever distro
> into submission and slapping a "Vinux" or "Sonar" label on it when that same
> upstream distro with very few tweaks could be made that way out of the box.
> If you absolutely must modify packages, desktop settings, etc from the
> upstream defaults, such as for low vision users, create a Vinux repository
> instead or work with the Ubuntu community to create an official Ubuntu flavor
> called Ubuntu VI or something. There is already a Ubuntu MATE flavor, so why
> not work with them directly? While we're at it, what about Orca? I see only
> one main paid developer working on it. I'm sure she could use some help, not
> to mention thorough testing. Getting back to the Windows screen readers, I
> fear that blind people will not be given the choice of what distro they want
> and will be locked out of mainstream use because there is primarily one Vinux
> to rule them all.
>
> In conclusion, I will continue not recommending any specialized distro to my
> clients and other people. I think they are almost always a mistake. As we
> have seen yet again, it does lead to fragmentation and generally bad luck for
> all concerned. I couldn't get any of them (Sonar, Vinux or Talking Arch) to
> work reliably on my 2009 machine which runs XP great and has a very old,
> well-supported standard sound card. I had to invent my own live / rescue CD
> because there wasn't anything reliable. Hopefully the official Debian rescue
> CD will have reliable speech soon. Something like a Vinux rescue CD would be
> a great idea, but not a live system with an unreliable graphical desktop,
> horrible speech (ESpeak) and an unreliable infrastructure which crashes for
> no obvious reason while the mainstream Debian and Ubuntu distros don't. All
> of that said, I wish both teams the best of luck and I guess we'll see what
> happens. I would only add that if you haven't taken the plunge and actually
> tried Linux, give Ubuntu MATE a try. It's fast, works well and can be
> installed independently by the blind in about an hour. It does,
> unfortunately, still use ESpeak. Getting a commercial company to release a
> decent synth as open source would be a great thing for a nonprofit to do,
> even if it required buying the rights.
>
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