Sonar GNU/Linux merges with Vinux

Linux for blind general discussion blinux-list at
Tue Apr 25 18:38:37 UTC 2017

I don't think I disagree with you much, but I made that point and others 
in the context of a lot of messages.  Also, I did not say that there is 
too much unity, only that some kinds of unity are better than others.


On 04/25/2017 11:22 AM, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
> But the world doesn't have a problem with too much unity. You say,
> "unity behind the wrong philosophy very well might give us a worse
> world, not a better one." But it's not as if that has been a huge
> problem for the blind community, developers of accessibility software,
> or the combination of the two. And this is actually the key issue. I
> started out in this thread defending developers of custom distros for
> the blind. Critics say they are wasting a precious resource, their own
> expertise, on custom distros for the blind when they should be
> concentrating on fixing the upstream distros. Why is that anybody's
> business but their own? Well, for one thing, we're all in this thing
> together. All humans on this planet are interconnected whether they like
> it or not. But even without that, there are questions as to how much
> support the rest of us should give them. And even beyond that, you could
> argue that it's a public list and anybody has a right to offer criticism
> if they like. I originally used the line, "Don't let the perfect be the
> enemy of the good" by way of defending the developers of custom distros
> for the blind.
> Even talking about possible problems with too much unity seems crazy to
> me when we are drowning in a sea of disunity and can't compromise on
> even the tiniest thing.
> On 04/25/2017 09:01 AM, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
>> Sometimes that slogan about the perfect being the enemy of the good is
>> useful, sometimes not.  In this instance, I'm inclined to think it's not.
>> Sighted people as a group disagree on a great many things, and vary a
>> great deal on the willingness to compromise.  It's the same with blind
>> folks, and we should expect no differently.  How willing I am to
>> compromise depends largely on whether matters of principle are involved.
>>  With computers and other devices, it also depends in part on whether I
>> think I'm being called on to change for an arbitrary reason or whether
>> the change seems to be intuitively better or clearly be a logical
>> improvement.
>> I use both JAWS and Orca.  I'm therefore used to using F12 with the
>> first and the letter t with the second for getting the time.  It would
>> be a bit easier if there were just one key for both screen readers, as
>> there are with a good number of other keyboard actions, but I usually
>> remember when to use which.  I'm kind of an old guy, so I had to learn a
>> bunch of different keystrokes for several screen readers since 1989.  I
>> have a memory like a broken coffee strainer, so maybe I should mind
>> more, but it doesn't bother me too much if (a) I can learn gradually and
>> (b) the thing I'm learning may have something genuinely better to offer,
>> as with Linux.
>> Incidentally, the other side of this is why I hated screwing around with
>> chromium and chromevox, along with the hassles of getting and installing
>> the latter.  I had to learn too many keystrokes at once just to use the
>> bastard, and I've heard of no reason why chrome/chromium couldn't be
>> designed to work with existing screen readers.  (Correct me if I'm
>> wrong, but as far as I know it hasn't been, although GoogleDocs or
>> whatever seems to be better in that respect than it was.)
>> Concerning the time keystrokes, I think the orca key and t is more
>> intuitive than the JAWS key and f12 is.  Other things being more or less
>> equal, I'd therefore want the t for the time if I were designing a
>> standard for all screen readers.  I might choose a JAWS key for
>> something else, but no example comes to mind.  I don't know how much
>> screen reader keystroke differences among screen readers has to do with
>> blind folks not giving Linux a good shot, but I do suspect it would be a
>> damned nuisance for many people, including me, if I'm using one system
>> and find I have to use different keys in the hope of pulling folks over
>> from another.  In this regard, "because it's the standard," seems to me
>> harsh and arbitrary, at least unless it's true beyond any reasonable
>> doubt.  (I refrain from ranting about the NLS switch from Grade II
>> Braille to UEB only because I consider that it might in the long run
>> flood the world with Braille.)
>> The complaint about there being two advocacy organizations among blind
>> people (I think there are more now) is old.  As far as I'm concerned, it
>> is as wrong as it was in the late 1970s, when I first heard it.  Yes,
>> we're a small group compared to others--though maybe a larger percentage
>> of people now than we were in the late 1970s.  Still, we're quite large
>> enough to have people with varied ideas about what our rightful place in
>> the world is and how we should try to get it.  The bitter battle that
>> created the American Council of the Blind from what was almost the
>> junkheap of the National Federation of the Blind seems to have had a lot
>> more to do with personality clashes and tyrannical tendencies than I
>> realized when I joined NFB, but there also were, or grew to be, some
>> genuine philosophical differences between the two groups.  (I remain
>> philosophically an NFB type in the main, but I'm not a member at the
>> moment.) The people with those differences, as well as others, have a
>> moral as well as a legal right to compete with their differing peers in
>> trying to shape the place we live in.  Yes, our lives would be simpler
>> if we were all united, and our list of "accomplishments" might be
>> longer, but unity behind the wrong philosophy very well might give us a
>> worse world, not a better one.  Which is the correct general course of
>> action is, of course, still up for grabs, but we seem to be better than
>> we once were at acting in concert when we find common ground.  I think
>> the world would be a much better place for us if it adopted my NFB-style
>> blindness philosophy, just as I think it would be better if it adopted a
>> free software philosophy--and, indeed, eradicated so-called intellectual
>> property from the known universe.  But it's more important to me, in
>> philosophy and in practice, that we have reasoned, principled, caring
>> discussions about how best to improve the world, a willingness to start
>> from the ground up if necessary but to avoid it if it isn't, and to
>> retain and respect the freedom of all of us to try to spread our
>> different views regardless of perceptions about our disunity.  That's
>> the kind of world in which I or anybody else can be proven as wrong as
>> acid rain and, at least after a moment's whining, be willing to adopt a
>> different view even on matters of principle.
>> I realize this got long as hell, but it seemed necessary.  Now for more
>> coffee.
>> Al
>> On 04/24/2017 10:32 AM, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
>>> Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Again, a little give can
>>> sometimes be a very good thing. Honestly, nerds all seem to have this
>>> thing where they think their way is the best way. This is how distro
>>> religious wars start. But of all the community of nerds I am associated
>>> with, blind nerds are the worst. There is absolutely no compromise, no
>>> willingness to work together, nothing! In fact, it's ubiquitous in the
>>> blind community. We even have 2 different advocacy groups, the NFB and
>>> the ACB.  And the health of the blind community as a whole can just go
>>> to heck for all anyone cares. Drives me crazy. The reason why F12 should
>>> give you the time is that that the standard. Because people expect F12
>>> to give them the time. It's that simple.
>>> On 04/24/2017 01:11 AM, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
>>>> Why do I want insert+f12 to tell me the time when insert+t, (t for
>>>> time), can do that for me just fine and more intuitively? How is f12
>>>> better than t, which stands for time? No, that's simply not a logical
>>>> keybinding, and I don't want it in Orca. BTDubs, holding in the insert
>>>> Orca key and double tapping t for time does tell me the date. So again
>>>> I ask what the hell does f12 mean and why is it needed to do the same
>>>> thing that t already does?
>>>> ~Kyle
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