FYI - Command Line Programs for the Blind

Wed Apr 13 15:51:14 UTC 2022

Yeah, Emacs has a shell mode, where the whole shell is a buffer, like a
temporary file, one can just read and interact with, with a command line at
the bottom for entry.
Devin Prater
r.d.t.prater at gmail.com

On Wed, Apr 13, 2022 at 10:41 AM Linux for blind general discussion <
blinux-list at redhat.com> wrote:

> I disagree with the concept of the text stream as the most accessible
> output.
> For me, it is the text page. To this end I set up my environment to dump
> almost all output into
> a temporary file which  I view with the vi editor.
>   For example, my vicmd command will open a file under my $HOME/bin
> directory, allow me to edit it, and then chmod it to allow execution.
>   My vls command will execute the ls command with all arguments, put
> the output in a temp file, and  open that file with vi.  Upon exiting it
> will then delete the file.
>   Often with lynx, it is easier to print the current rendered page
> to a file, shell out, and then view the page with vi.
>   By far my most useful command is v. This lets me run another command,
> and review
> its output with vi.
>   For me, it is simply easier to examine output data with vi than it is
> with just speakup alone.
>   I imagine emacspeak has the same advantage, but I never learned emacs,
> so I can't say so from experience.
>
> Rudy
>
> On Wed, Apr 13, 2022 at 04:36:22PM +0200, Linux for blind general
> discussion wrote:
> > It is worth noting that Karl's article linked to in the original post,
> was
> > not arguing in favour of programs like Mutt. He calls these types of
> > programs full screen programs, and considers them to be less accessible
> as
> > well. The ideal interface for a blind user according to the article, is a
> > program taking in a stream of text (commands) via standard input, and
> > replying with a stream of text via standard output.
> > It is also interesting that both Karl Dahlke (Edbrowse), and TV Raman
> > (Emacspeak) identified a problem with conveying full screen programs via
> > speech, but chose to solve it in very different ways. Karl Dahlke by
> > reducing the interface to a command line (text in, text out) interface,
> and
> > TV Raman by conveying more context and semantic information via speech
> > (gathered by hooking the internals of Emacs.)
> >
> > TV Raman's argument is presented in this paper:
> >
> >
> https://www.cs.cornell.edu/info/people/raman/publications/chi96-emacspeak/paper.html
> >
> > Much of what he proposes there is now possible with modern accessibility
> > API's though.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Rynhardt
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 13, 2022 at 4:16 PM Linux for blind general discussion <
> > blinux-list at redhat.com> wrote:
> >
> > > See to me, Thunderbird is entirely too cluttered by default. I don't
> need
> > > or want a calendar and search bar. I don't want or need to have to go
> > > digging to turn those things off in first boot. TO me they should be
> off by
> > > default and opt in, not somthing a user has to go hunting to get rid
> of on
> > > first boot.
> > >
> > > You are doing the xact same config steps in a CLI email client vs a
> gGUI
> > > one. THe only difference is a CLI one exposes a lot more of the
> settings.
> > > It's like putting oil in a car through a hole in the hood, vs opening
> up
> > > the hood to put the oil into the engine. Both let you put the oil in,
> but
> > > one lets you get to far more of the engine than the other.
> > >
> > > That's the way I look at CLI vs GUI setup. Sure, you can get to the
> same
> > > settings in both ways, but a CLI exposes far more of the settings than
> a
> > > GUI does and makes it easier to view and change. There are, however,
> things
> > > like Mutt Wizard for, you guessed it, Mutt and sample configs though
> > > whether a new user would know to look for them is a whole other
> argument
> > > but at the same time, I wouldn't expect a new user to know how to turn
> off
> > > the calendar in Thunderbird or hide the message pane or folder pane
> either
> > > if it's their very first time using Thunderbird..
> > >
> > >
> > >  On Wed, Apr 13, 2022 at 03:59:11PM +0200, Linux for blind general
> > > discussion wrote:
> > > > Hi!
> > > > I sometimes have better luck with cli than graphical environment.
> > > > To be honest  Orca seldom comes up with a working braille environment
> > > for me.
> > > > ANd I have to create a special key file for the burlap if its not
> there.
> > > > Otherwise I have to fiddle around with tons of settings to make
> braille
> > > work as I want it.
> > > > In cli it just works.
> > > > And I can review the screen how I want to and I never have any issues
> > > with brltty there.
> > > > /A
> > > >
> > > > > 13 apr. 2022 kl. 15:24 skrev Linux for blind general discussion <
> > > blinux-list at redhat.com>:
> > > > >
> > > > > I just fired up Thunderbird to check and yes. I have to tab past
> the
> > > calendar, the search bar, then the list of folders, then to the
> specific
> > > message I want. Okay that's 4-5, not 10 tabs....but that's on a brand
> new
> > > config however. To me...that is less effficient than pulling down my
> > > premade .muttrc and typing mutt then I'm straight into the inbox with
> zero
> > > flufff like a search field, or a calendar or something getting in the
> way
> > > at all. yes. I can disable all that stuff. But on first run it is
> there.
> > > It's there and prompting you to set up a new account right away
> without, at
> > > least when I was checking it and this may be DE and WM specific, a way
> to
> > > get to the options menu to declutter Thunderbird's interface without
> either
> > > going through or quitting out of account setup.
> > > > >
> > > > > don't want a calendar at first boot. if I want to search messages
> I'll
> > > deliberately go and start a search, I don't want or need a search bar
> > > hovering right above my folder that I need to tab through to get to my
> > > emails, or a message pane. Just give me the list of messages and let me
> > > config Thunderbird how I want, without a ton of stuff getting in the
> way,
> > > Thunderbird people...See to me, by default, Thunderbird is cluttered
> with
> > > stufff I, personally, don't need. For my use case, Mutt is simpler and
> > > easier. The key binds make sense. M for a new mail, R to reply, D to
> > > delete, and so on. Yes I had to add urlview to get URLs from a
> message but
> > > that is a simple process (at least for me) of pasting two lines into a
> > > file, saving, and quitting that can be done with a graphical text
> editor.
> > > > >
> > > > > On that note, I'll give a shout out to Micro for being a text
> editor
> > > that actually has sensible shortcuts. Much as I love Vim, the
> shortcuts are
> > > as you pointed out, all over the place as far as a : then something. It
> > > makes sense once you grab the hang of it, sure. But....for beginners
> it's a
> > > learning curve, but the commands do make sense, :wq to wirite changes
> and
> > > quit the file for example. Chryis's stuff follows the desktop keybinds
> as
> > > much as is possible as well
> > > > >
> > > > > On that note though each WM/DE does things differently, see opening
> > > apps up in Gnome, Cinnamon, Mate, etc. The huge advantage CLI has (at
> least
> > > for me) is I don't have to deal with desktops and their varying A11Y
> > > standards, such as Mate freezing up when a Chromium app is exited (or
> on my
> > > laptop, anything relaly...I think I need to just nuke and go with
> something
> > > decent there...) or Gnome's control center or Cinnamon or....I know
> I'll
> > > have Fenrir or espeakup working in one particular way that I can learn
> > > without having to fight with a desktop or WM's idea of what shortcuts
> are
> > > best, or deal with DE or Wm maintainers who aren't up to speed or able
> > > to/willing to fix A11yY issues.
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes for your average, every day user I'd agree that graphical
> desktops
> > > are better, but I'd also argue that using the CLI for things doesn't
> really
> > > hurt. I mean, 99% of tutorials start with open a terminal and type
> this...
> > > so a bit of CLI knowledge is, I'd say just as useful as being able to
> use a
> > > desktop. No you don't have to be a power user who lives in a CLI only
> > > world, but at the same time CLI has its advantages as does a desktop
> though.
> > > > >
> > > > > See if more CLI apps have sensible key binds...I'll recommend them.
> > > Nano is horrific for this as far as that goes, a lot o the older
> software
> > > absolutely has key binds all over the place. I feel like there needs
> to be
> > > a giant list of CLI stuff with sensible key binds as well for easy
> > > reference.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Apr 13, 2022 at 08:32:59AM -0400, Linux for blind general
> > > discussion wrote:
> > > > >> so for some things, a CLI program is better and simpler with less
> work
> > > > >> involved (for example on Mutt I can just open up my Blinux list
> > > folder, hit
> > > > >> end, R, type then y to send, no need to tab 10 times then enter
> then
> > > ctrl+r
> > > > >> then ctrl+enter to send this email), ...
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Where do you get all the tabbing 10 times and all that extra work?
> > > You seem
> > > > >> to have a highly unusual concept of how graphical email programs
> > > work. For
> > > > >> example, using Thunderbird, I was able to open up just my inbox,
> > > press the
> > > > >> shift+tab key once, which seems to be necessary only because of a
> > > focus bug,
> > > > >> press end to get to the bottom of the list, then enter on the
> message
> > > I
> > > > >> wanted to read, this one in this case, select the exact text I
> wanted
> > > to
> > > > >> quote above and nothing more, press control+r to reply, edit the
> > > quote ever
> > > > >> so slightly, just to add the ... at the end, go down to the
> bottom to
> > > write
> > > > >> underneath the quote to answer the question, just as I would in
> any
> > > text
> > > > >> editor, and when I'm ready to send the message, after
> proofreading of
> > > > >> course, which I always do, but that's an editor thing, not
> something
> > > > >> specific to email, I then just press control+enter to send the
> > > message. I
> > > > >> have very easy to use conversation threading, full navigation
> > > capabilities
> > > > >> that I normally see in a web browser, links just open up in the
> > > default
> > > > >> browser without making me have to jump through all kinds of
> > > configuration
> > > > >> hoops just to get that working, and best of all, configuration
> itself
> > > takes
> > > > >> about 2 minutes from 0 to two email accounts ready to read and
> > > respond to
> > > > >> email, instead of taking weeks or even months to set up and
> having to
> > > try to
> > > > >> figure out weeks later what is still going wrong and why as was my
> > > problem
> > > > >> when I tried to use Mutt, although I admit it was years ago that I
> > > tried it
> > > > >> and gave up on it, as I never could get external email on an IMAP
> > > server
> > > > >> working correctly; the only way I could use Mutt at all was when I
> > > tried to
> > > > >> run a home-based email server that was my user account @
> > > > >> some.dyndns-provider.domain, and of course that ended up going the
> > > way of
> > > > >> the dodo because already at that time email was something that
> only
> > > > >> corporate types and server operators with boxes that were much
> > > beefier than
> > > > >> mine in power-sucking data centers with T1 pipes and static IP's
> could
> > > > >> actually run effectively. I mean now I can just run my email from
> a
> > > VPS,
> > > > >> which I do, but now we're back to the external email problem
> again,
> > > since I
> > > > >> use IMAP on the server to let me use any client I want on any
> device.
> > > > >> Regarding IMAP, I couldn't even get Alpine working with that, even
> > > though
> > > > >> the settings are supposed to be there; I just couldn't find them,
> and
> > > this
> > > > >> was fairly recently. In Thunderbird, I just add a new account, and
> > > the worst
> > > > >> case is that I may have to specify the IMAP and SMTP servers and
> ports
> > > > >> manually. But even doing this takes far less time to set up on a
> new
> > > machine
> > > > >> than text-based email, especially Mutt. I will grant you that of
> > > course I
> > > > >> could just copy over configurations to a new machine, but that is
> not
> > > > >> limited to Mutt, since Thunderbird and even the browsers have the
> > > ability to
> > > > >> read saved config files that come from other machines. I'm just
> > > referring to
> > > > >> first-run setup, or if I ever need to make any changes to the
> existing
> > > > >> configurations, which is far easier to do in graphical email
> programs
> > > of all
> > > > >> kinds.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I think the real showstopper for me when it comes to text-based
> > > applications
> > > > >> is the sheer inconsistency between applications. On my graphical
> > > desktop, I
> > > > >> have certain functionality that just works no matter where I am or
> > > what
> > > > >> application I'm using. For example, alt+f4 will close this window,
> > > > >> shift+arrows will highlight text to be copied or cut in most
> cases,
> > > that is
> > > > >> anywhere that text can be selected, then I have the standard
> > > control+x to
> > > > >> cut, control+c to copy, then control+v to paste to the application
> > > where I
> > > > >> want the text to appear, whether that's in the same application
> or a
> > > > >> different one. In most cases, control+q also closes an
> application,
> > > and
> > > > >> control+w closes the current window. These things all work 90% or
> > > more of
> > > > >> the time. With text-based applications, there is much
> inconsistency.
> > > Just to
> > > > >> give an example, control+x cuts selected text in most desktop
> > > applications,
> > > > >> but it quits Nano, and in most graphical text editors, I press
> > > control+f to
> > > > >> find something, this even works in browsers, but in Nano, I have
> to
> > > use
> > > > >> control+w. What? And we're not even gonna talk about things like
> Vim,
> > > or the
> > > > >> dreaded EMACS, or all the other text editors out there, with the
> > > exception
> > > > >> of Micro, since it is on the path to rectify the consistency
> problem
> > > by
> > > > >> using familiar keybindings for most things. The problem though is
> > > that the
> > > > >> functionality I mentioned in Nano, control+x to quit and
> control+w to
> > > find
> > > > >> something, are limited to Nano, Pico and I think it's called
> Pilot.
> > > Most if
> > > > >> not all other text-based editors have their own keybindings that
> all
> > > work
> > > > >> differently. This is pretty much fine once I have made all my
> choices
> > > of
> > > > >> favorite apps and either got used to the differences and
> > > inconsistencies or
> > > > >> reconfigured all their keybindings so that they're all the same,
> but
> > > for
> > > > >> someone just sitting down in front of a computer for the first
> time
> > > just
> > > > >> trying to edit a file or send an email, or even for someone doing
> > > this for a
> > > > >> long time, the consistency of the graphical desktop applications
> and
> > > the
> > > > >> functionality they share that is implemented in much the same way
> > > across
> > > > >> applications makes me and many others feel more comfortable at the
> > > computer
> > > > >> and certainly makes us more productive.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> ~Kyle
> > > > >>
> > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > >> Blinux-list mailing list
> > > > >> Blinux-list at redhat.com
> > > > >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > > > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > > https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > >
> > >
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>
> --
> Rudy Vener
> Website: http://www.rudyvener.com
> Twitter: https://twitter.com/RudySalt
>
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