FYI - Command Line Programs for the Blind

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Many thanks for this,   it is the best description of how I would like to 
work,  system permitting.

R.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Linux for blind general discussion" <blinux-list at redhat.com>
To: "Linux for blind general discussion" <blinux-list at redhat.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2022 7:06 PM
Subject: Re: FYI - Command Line Programs for the Blind


To me the real advantage of screen is the ability to position the screen at 
the right machine in the right
directory with the right user login.
For example I keep one screen logged into  system 1 as root, another on 
system 2 over ssh for email,
another logged in as a normal user on system 1 in a documents directory, 
another for playing youtube streams, and so forth
and so on.

This saves a lot of cd'ing and ssh'ing, plus I don't have to close down one 
application to use another.
I can even pause a youtube play to send an email or a text from another 
screen, and
then return to the youtube screen and resume play.

So while I'm not exactly multi tasking, I'm definitely interrupt driven 
tasking.

Rudy

On Wed, Apr 13, 2022 at 12:05:56PM -0400, Linux for blind general discussion 
wrote:
> It's advantageous locking full screen programs out if minds work better on
> single task at a time rather than multiple tasks at a time.  The entire
> windows interface and everything emanating from that interface was
> intended for the A.D.H.D. multi-tasking types among us and they do exist.
> Screen can be helpful in my context so long as only one task has focus at
> a time.
>
>
> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
>
> >  I have issues with that approach though, in that okay that may have 
> > been the case 20 years ago, but technology has moved on. You now have 
> > desktops and things that can convey a full screen experience on Linux 
> > with stuff like Orca. I don't feel like deliberately locking out full 
> > screen programs helps anyone though. See I feel this is where everyone 
> > having differing ideas n what is or isn't accessible comes into play. 
> > For me, I have no issues with Mutt and using it, to me it flows and 
> > makes sense, whereas I flail around and struggl with Emacspeak and have 
> > zero idea where to go or what to even do, and given Edbrowse isn't in 
> > the AUR or Arch repos I can't try it however though
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 13, 2022 at 04:36:22PM +0200, Linux for blind general 
> > discussion wrote:
> > > It is worth noting that Karl's article linked to in the original post, 
> > > was
> > > not arguing in favour of programs like Mutt. He calls these types of
> > > programs full screen programs, and considers them to be less 
> > > accessible as
> > > well. The ideal interface for a blind user according to the article, 
> > > is a
> > > program taking in a stream of text (commands) via standard input, and
> > > replying with a stream of text via standard output.
> > > It is also interesting that both Karl Dahlke (Edbrowse), and TV Raman
> > > (Emacspeak) identified a problem with conveying full screen programs 
> > > via
> > > speech, but chose to solve it in very different ways. Karl Dahlke by
> > > reducing the interface to a command line (text in, text out) 
> > > interface, and
> > > TV Raman by conveying more context and semantic information via speech
> > > (gathered by hooking the internals of Emacs.)
> > >
> > > TV Raman's argument is presented in this paper:
> > >
> > > https://www.cs.cornell.edu/info/people/raman/publications/chi96-emacspeak/paper.html
> > >
> > > Much of what he proposes there is now possible with modern 
> > > accessibility
> > > API's though.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Rynhardt
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Apr 13, 2022 at 4:16 PM Linux for blind general discussion <
> > > blinux-list at redhat.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > See to me, Thunderbird is entirely too cluttered by default. I don't 
> > > > need
> > > > or want a calendar and search bar. I don't want or need to have to 
> > > > go
> > > > digging to turn those things off in first boot. TO me they should be 
> > > > off by
> > > > default and opt in, not somthing a user has to go hunting to get rid 
> > > > of on
> > > > first boot.
> > > >
> > > > You are doing the xact same config steps in a CLI email client vs a 
> > > > gGUI
> > > > one. THe only difference is a CLI one exposes a lot more of the 
> > > > settings.
> > > > It's like putting oil in a car through a hole in the hood, vs 
> > > > opening up
> > > > the hood to put the oil into the engine. Both let you put the oil 
> > > > in, but
> > > > one lets you get to far more of the engine than the other.
> > > >
> > > > That's the way I look at CLI vs GUI setup. Sure, you can get to the 
> > > > same
> > > > settings in both ways, but a CLI exposes far more of the settings 
> > > > than a
> > > > GUI does and makes it easier to view and change. There are, however, 
> > > > things
> > > > like Mutt Wizard for, you guessed it, Mutt and sample configs though
> > > > whether a new user would know to look for them is a whole other 
> > > > argument
> > > > but at the same time, I wouldn't expect a new user to know how to 
> > > > turn off
> > > > the calendar in Thunderbird or hide the message pane or folder pane 
> > > > either
> > > > if it's their very first time using Thunderbird..
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  On Wed, Apr 13, 2022 at 03:59:11PM +0200, Linux for blind general
> > > > discussion wrote:
> > > > > Hi!
> > > > > I sometimes have better luck with cli than graphical environment.
> > > > > To be honest  Orca seldom comes up with a working braille 
> > > > > environment
> > > > for me.
> > > > > ANd I have to create a special key file for the burlap if its not 
> > > > > there.
> > > > > Otherwise I have to fiddle around with tons of settings to make 
> > > > > braille
> > > > work as I want it.
> > > > > In cli it just works.
> > > > > And I can review the screen how I want to and I never have any 
> > > > > issues
> > > > with brltty there.
> > > > > /A
> > > > >
> > > > > > 13 apr. 2022 kl. 15:24 skrev Linux for blind general discussion 
> > > > > > <
> > > > blinux-list at redhat.com>:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I just fired up Thunderbird to check and yes. I have to tab past 
> > > > > > the
> > > > calendar, the search bar, then the list of folders, then to the 
> > > > specific
> > > > message I want. Okay that's 4-5, not 10 tabs....but that's on a 
> > > > brand new
> > > > config however. To me...that is less effficient than pulling down my
> > > > premade .muttrc and typing mutt then I'm straight into the inbox 
> > > > with zero
> > > > flufff like a search field, or a calendar or something getting in 
> > > > the way
> > > > at all. yes. I can disable all that stuff. But on first run it is 
> > > > there.
> > > > It's there and prompting you to set up a new account right away 
> > > > without, at
> > > > least when I was checking it and this may be DE and WM specific, a 
> > > > way to
> > > > get to the options menu to declutter Thunderbird's interface without 
> > > > either
> > > > going through or quitting out of account setup.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > don't want a calendar at first boot. if I want to search 
> > > > > > messages I'll
> > > > deliberately go and start a search, I don't want or need a search 
> > > > bar
> > > > hovering right above my folder that I need to tab through to get to 
> > > > my
> > > > emails, or a message pane. Just give me the list of messages and let 
> > > > me
> > > > config Thunderbird how I want, without a ton of stuff getting in the 
> > > > way,
> > > > Thunderbird people...See to me, by default, Thunderbird is cluttered 
> > > > with
> > > > stufff I, personally, don't need. For my use case, Mutt is simpler 
> > > > and
> > > > easier. The key binds make sense. M for a new mail, R to reply, D to
> > > > delete, and so on. Yes I had to add urlview to get URLs from a 
> > > > message but
> > > > that is a simple process (at least for me) of pasting two lines into 
> > > > a
> > > > file, saving, and quitting that can be done with a graphical text 
> > > > editor.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On that note, I'll give a shout out to Micro for being a text 
> > > > > > editor
> > > > that actually has sensible shortcuts. Much as I love Vim, the 
> > > > shortcuts are
> > > > as you pointed out, all over the place as far as a : then something. 
> > > > It
> > > > makes sense once you grab the hang of it, sure. But....for beginners 
> > > > it's a
> > > > learning curve, but the commands do make sense, :wq to wirite 
> > > > changes and
> > > > quit the file for example. Chryis's stuff follows the desktop 
> > > > keybinds as
> > > > much as is possible as well
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On that note though each WM/DE does things differently, see 
> > > > > > opening
> > > > apps up in Gnome, Cinnamon, Mate, etc. The huge advantage CLI has 
> > > > (at least
> > > > for me) is I don't have to deal with desktops and their varying A11Y
> > > > standards, such as Mate freezing up when a Chromium app is exited 
> > > > (or on my
> > > > laptop, anything relaly...I think I need to just nuke and go with 
> > > > something
> > > > decent there...) or Gnome's control center or Cinnamon or....I know 
> > > > I'll
> > > > have Fenrir or espeakup working in one particular way that I can 
> > > > learn
> > > > without having to fight with a desktop or WM's idea of what 
> > > > shortcuts are
> > > > best, or deal with DE or Wm maintainers who aren't up to speed or 
> > > > able
> > > > to/willing to fix A11yY issues.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yes for your average, every day user I'd agree that graphical 
> > > > > > desktops
> > > > are better, but I'd also argue that using the CLI for things doesn't 
> > > > really
> > > > hurt. I mean, 99% of tutorials start with open a terminal and type 
> > > > this...
> > > > so a bit of CLI knowledge is, I'd say just as useful as being able 
> > > > to use a
> > > > desktop. No you don't have to be a power user who lives in a CLI 
> > > > only
> > > > world, but at the same time CLI has its advantages as does a desktop 
> > > > though.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > See if more CLI apps have sensible key binds...I'll recommend 
> > > > > > them.
> > > > Nano is horrific for this as far as that goes, a lot o the older 
> > > > software
> > > > absolutely has key binds all over the place. I feel like there needs 
> > > > to be
> > > > a giant list of CLI stuff with sensible key binds as well for easy
> > > > reference.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Wed, Apr 13, 2022 at 08:32:59AM -0400, Linux for blind 
> > > > > > general
> > > > discussion wrote:
> > > > > >> so for some things, a CLI program is better and simpler with 
> > > > > >> less work
> > > > > >> involved (for example on Mutt I can just open up my Blinux list
> > > > folder, hit
> > > > > >> end, R, type then y to send, no need to tab 10 times then enter 
> > > > > >> then
> > > > ctrl+r
> > > > > >> then ctrl+enter to send this email), ...
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Where do you get all the tabbing 10 times and all that extra 
> > > > > >> work?
> > > > You seem
> > > > > >> to have a highly unusual concept of how graphical email 
> > > > > >> programs
> > > > work. For
> > > > > >> example, using Thunderbird, I was able to open up just my 
> > > > > >> inbox,
> > > > press the
> > > > > >> shift+tab key once, which seems to be necessary only because of 
> > > > > >> a
> > > > focus bug,
> > > > > >> press end to get to the bottom of the list, then enter on the 
> > > > > >> message
> > > > I
> > > > > >> wanted to read, this one in this case, select the exact text I 
> > > > > >> wanted
> > > > to
> > > > > >> quote above and nothing more, press control+r to reply, edit 
> > > > > >> the
> > > > quote ever
> > > > > >> so slightly, just to add the ... at the end, go down to the 
> > > > > >> bottom to
> > > > write
> > > > > >> underneath the quote to answer the question, just as I would in 
> > > > > >> any
> > > > text
> > > > > >> editor, and when I'm ready to send the message, after 
> > > > > >> proofreading of
> > > > > >> course, which I always do, but that's an editor thing, not 
> > > > > >> something
> > > > > >> specific to email, I then just press control+enter to send the
> > > > message. I
> > > > > >> have very easy to use conversation threading, full navigation
> > > > capabilities
> > > > > >> that I normally see in a web browser, links just open up in the
> > > > default
> > > > > >> browser without making me have to jump through all kinds of
> > > > configuration
> > > > > >> hoops just to get that working, and best of all, configuration 
> > > > > >> itself
> > > > takes
> > > > > >> about 2 minutes from 0 to two email accounts ready to read and
> > > > respond to
> > > > > >> email, instead of taking weeks or even months to set up and 
> > > > > >> having to
> > > > try to
> > > > > >> figure out weeks later what is still going wrong and why as was 
> > > > > >> my
> > > > problem
> > > > > >> when I tried to use Mutt, although I admit it was years ago 
> > > > > >> that I
> > > > tried it
> > > > > >> and gave up on it, as I never could get external email on an 
> > > > > >> IMAP
> > > > server
> > > > > >> working correctly; the only way I could use Mutt at all was 
> > > > > >> when I
> > > > tried to
> > > > > >> run a home-based email server that was my user account @
> > > > > >> some.dyndns-provider.domain, and of course that ended up going 
> > > > > >> the
> > > > way of
> > > > > >> the dodo because already at that time email was something that 
> > > > > >> only
> > > > > >> corporate types and server operators with boxes that were much
> > > > beefier than
> > > > > >> mine in power-sucking data centers with T1 pipes and static 
> > > > > >> IP's could
> > > > > >> actually run effectively. I mean now I can just run my email 
> > > > > >> from a
> > > > VPS,
> > > > > >> which I do, but now we're back to the external email problem 
> > > > > >> again,
> > > > since I
> > > > > >> use IMAP on the server to let me use any client I want on any 
> > > > > >> device.
> > > > > >> Regarding IMAP, I couldn't even get Alpine working with that, 
> > > > > >> even
> > > > though
> > > > > >> the settings are supposed to be there; I just couldn't find 
> > > > > >> them, and
> > > > this
> > > > > >> was fairly recently. In Thunderbird, I just add a new account, 
> > > > > >> and
> > > > the worst
> > > > > >> case is that I may have to specify the IMAP and SMTP servers 
> > > > > >> and ports
> > > > > >> manually. But even doing this takes far less time to set up on 
> > > > > >> a new
> > > > machine
> > > > > >> than text-based email, especially Mutt. I will grant you that 
> > > > > >> of
> > > > course I
> > > > > >> could just copy over configurations to a new machine, but that 
> > > > > >> is not
> > > > > >> limited to Mutt, since Thunderbird and even the browsers have 
> > > > > >> the
> > > > ability to
> > > > > >> read saved config files that come from other machines. I'm just
> > > > referring to
> > > > > >> first-run setup, or if I ever need to make any changes to the 
> > > > > >> existing
> > > > > >> configurations, which is far easier to do in graphical email 
> > > > > >> programs
> > > > of all
> > > > > >> kinds.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> I think the real showstopper for me when it comes to text-based
> > > > applications
> > > > > >> is the sheer inconsistency between applications. On my 
> > > > > >> graphical
> > > > desktop, I
> > > > > >> have certain functionality that just works no matter where I am 
> > > > > >> or
> > > > what
> > > > > >> application I'm using. For example, alt+f4 will close this 
> > > > > >> window,
> > > > > >> shift+arrows will highlight text to be copied or cut in most 
> > > > > >> cases,
> > > > that is
> > > > > >> anywhere that text can be selected, then I have the standard
> > > > control+x to
> > > > > >> cut, control+c to copy, then control+v to paste to the 
> > > > > >> application
> > > > where I
> > > > > >> want the text to appear, whether that's in the same application 
> > > > > >> or a
> > > > > >> different one. In most cases, control+q also closes an 
> > > > > >> application,
> > > > and
> > > > > >> control+w closes the current window. These things all work 90% 
> > > > > >> or
> > > > more of
> > > > > >> the time. With text-based applications, there is much 
> > > > > >> inconsistency.
> > > > Just to
> > > > > >> give an example, control+x cuts selected text in most desktop
> > > > applications,
> > > > > >> but it quits Nano, and in most graphical text editors, I press
> > > > control+f to
> > > > > >> find something, this even works in browsers, but in Nano, I 
> > > > > >> have to
> > > > use
> > > > > >> control+w. What? And we're not even gonna talk about things 
> > > > > >> like Vim,
> > > > or the
> > > > > >> dreaded EMACS, or all the other text editors out there, with 
> > > > > >> the
> > > > exception
> > > > > >> of Micro, since it is on the path to rectify the consistency 
> > > > > >> problem
> > > > by
> > > > > >> using familiar keybindings for most things. The problem though 
> > > > > >> is
> > > > that the
> > > > > >> functionality I mentioned in Nano, control+x to quit and 
> > > > > >> control+w to
> > > > find
> > > > > >> something, are limited to Nano, Pico and I think it's called 
> > > > > >> Pilot.
> > > > Most if
> > > > > >> not all other text-based editors have their own keybindings 
> > > > > >> that all
> > > > work
> > > > > >> differently. This is pretty much fine once I have made all my 
> > > > > >> choices
> > > > of
> > > > > >> favorite apps and either got used to the differences and
> > > > inconsistencies or
> > > > > >> reconfigured all their keybindings so that they're all the 
> > > > > >> same, but
> > > > for
> > > > > >> someone just sitting down in front of a computer for the first 
> > > > > >> time
> > > > just
> > > > > >> trying to edit a file or send an email, or even for someone 
> > > > > >> doing
> > > > this for a
> > > > > >> long time, the consistency of the graphical desktop 
> > > > > >> applications and
> > > > the
> > > > > >> functionality they share that is implemented in much the same 
> > > > > >> way
> > > > across
> > > > > >> applications makes me and many others feel more comfortable at 
> > > > > >> the
> > > > computer
> > > > > >> and certainly makes us more productive.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> ~Kyle
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > > >> Blinux-list mailing list
> > > > > >> Blinux-list at redhat.com
> > > > > >> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > > > >
> > > > >
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> > > > >
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-- 
Rudy Vener
Website: http://www.rudyvener.com
Twitter: https://twitter.com/RudySalt

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