"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

Linux for blind general discussion blinux-list at redhat.com
Tue Aug 16 16:56:42 UTC 2022

Did you know the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT* develop Narrator to 
the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you think the NFB is 
incapable of forcing a choice on blind people, you are sadly mistaken.

On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state where the
> agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
> Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its problems,
> but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that society
> has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes in
> skills and high expectations.
> And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of
> choice.
> Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but this is
> organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy.  In fact, the fact that
> it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any other
> organization in interpersonal staff issues.
> And choice does not mean training center choices.
> Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational course in
> college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of choice in
> this regard is different than computer software, where all the choices will
> reach the same end result.
> In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I want to
> use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get, no
> questions asked.
> They would not have to fight to get it.
> I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use the
> software that the counselor wants them to have.
> When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch well
> enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
> To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan
> Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> You are right.  In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people and
> took them out for steak diners and so forth.  I fought like hell to get
> them to buy window-eyes.
> 73
> Butch
> Node 3148
> Wallace, ks.
> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>> And where do these employers learn about jaws?
>> In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how  this works exactly.
>> after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal Jaws
>> users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an expensive
>> program instead of a largely free one.
>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>   Karen,
>>>   Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
>>>   In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the counselors
>>>   will
>>>   use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
>>>   If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but don't know
>>>   NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients will need
>>> to
>>>   learn one of the two.
>>>   So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what the
>>> employer
>>>   will allow.
>>>   Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more Jaws
>>> scripters
>>>   available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
>>>   So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31 years in the
>>>   business I can say is rubbish.
>>>   Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either may be
>>>   chosen,
>>>   the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the counselor feels
>>> is
>>>   best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
>>>   When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for non-vocational
>>>   purchases,
>>>   where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's best
>>>   interest
>>>   to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back like VR
>>>   expenditures do.
>>>   Glenn
>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>>   From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>   To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>   Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>   <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>   Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>   The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets reminded,
>>> the
>>>   rehab systems track record for facilitating  employment for their
>>> clients
>>>   is quite poor.
>>>   With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients.  Making,
>>>   speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really
>>>   reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative request.
>>>   Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom scientific, we
>>> are
>>>   creating an employment program where our clients will train in Linux,
>>>   needing a solid screen reader solution for the system.  We will give you
>>>   an
>>>   exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool.
>>>   Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>>>   On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>   True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at work,
>>>>   and
>>>>   probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the client.
>>>>   If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would
>>>> advocate
>>>>   that
>>>>   the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a specific
>>>> job.
>>>>   In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than we did
>>>>   for
>>>>   work related situations.
>>>>   So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would indeed
>>>>   purchase a JFL product.
>>>>   Glenn
>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>>>   From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>   To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>   Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>   <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>   Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>   there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the blinux
>>>>   list
>>>>   about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to say
>>>>   command line,  the comments were quite informative.
>>>>   Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they
>>>>   market
>>>>   to the American rehab community.
>>>>   how much market research has  the rehab community done to support the
>>>>   need
>>>>   for choices?
>>>>   How many rehab counselors support  training in Linux?
>>>>   one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality
>>>> speech
>>>>   is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.  everyone
>>>>   brings their needs to the table there.
>>>>   if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you  need to prove there is
>>>>   money for  them there, from their main source of income.
>>>>   On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>   Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why
>>>>> FS
>>>>>   would
>>>>>   not be able to do the same.
>>>>>   If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game
>>>>>   changer,
>>>>>   and
>>>>>   I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
>>>>>   accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>>>>>   Glenn
>>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>   From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>   To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>   Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>   <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>   Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>>>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>   Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, being
>>>>>   bought
>>>>>   by another company.
>>>>>   Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools
>>>>>   for
>>>>>   Linux.
>>>>>   That is because as I understand it, Linux is  quite like clay. You
>>>>> can
>>>>>   mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>>>>>   personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and
>>>>>   options
>>>>>   for creativity.
>>>>>   however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
>>>>>   characteristics,
>>>>>   hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>>>>>   To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid  foundation as
>>>>> it
>>>>>   were.  that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple
>>>>>   efforts
>>>>>   at
>>>>>   inclusion, they  created  with, and then created in-house adaptive
>>>>>   tools
>>>>>   for various  populations that were built into the system.
>>>>>   Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at
>>>>>   least,
>>>>>   the
>>>>>   consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the
>>>>>   former
>>>>>   gw  micro or nvda to create something that can in theory  work.
>>>>>   Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>>>>>   Just my thoughts,
>>>>>   On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>   I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
>>>>>>   JFL
>>>>>>   I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring
>>>>>>   many
>>>>>>   more
>>>>>>   users into Linux.
>>>>>>   FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than
>>>>>>   Orca.
>>>>>>   Glenn
>>>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>   From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>>>>>   To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>>>>>   Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>   Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>>>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>>   "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>> writes:
>>>>>> KL>  What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> KL>  absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
>>>>>> KL>  defines Linux usage for everyone.  That attitude is dangerous,
>>>>>> KL>  because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
>>>>>> KL>  experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.  he
>>>>>> has
>>>>>> KL>  to be expert, it is his job.
>>>>>>   Hi Karen,
>>>>>>   I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>>>>>> qualifications.
>>>>>>   I
>>>>>>   also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and
>>>>>> I
>>>>>>   believe heâ?Td be happy to be corrected about possible technical
>>>>>>   inaccuracies in the interview.  It may be also a good opportunity
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>   find out whatâ?Ts possibly missing in making anybody better
>>>>>>   informed.
>>>>>>   As for â?oabsolute dismissal of what he has not experiencedâ?,
>>>>>> what
>>>>>>   reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard
>>>>>>   desktop
>>>>>>   with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common
>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>   user
>>>>>>   who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process
>>>>>>   text
>>>>>>   documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
>>>>>>   And letâ?Ts be realistic.  We celebrate every single developer
>>>>>> hired
>>>>>>   to
>>>>>>   improve accessibility.  This tells something about the state of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>   matters.  We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the
>>>>>>   kinds
>>>>>>   of accessibility problems in all the environments.  Lukas works at
>>>>>>   his
>>>>>>   job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones
>>>>>>   and I
>>>>>>   appreciate this opportunity.  Anybody else seeing a need to work
>>>>>> on
>>>>>>   other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I
>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>   Regards,
>>>>>>   Milan

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