"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
Linux for blind general discussion
blinux-list at redhat.com
Tue Aug 16 16:56:42 UTC 2022
Did you know the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT* develop Narrator to
the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you think the NFB is
incapable of forcing a choice on blind people, you are sadly mistaken.
On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state where the
> agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
> Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its problems,
> but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that society
> has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes in
> skills and high expectations.
> And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of
> choice.
> Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but this is
> organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy. In fact, the fact that
> it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any other
> organization in interpersonal staff issues.
> And choice does not mean training center choices.
> Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational course in
> college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of choice in
> this regard is different than computer software, where all the choices will
> reach the same end result.
> In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I want to
> use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get, no
> questions asked.
> They would not have to fight to get it.
> I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use the
> software that the counselor wants them to have.
> When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch well
> enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
>
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
> To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan
> Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>
>
> You are right. In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people and
> took them out for steak diners and so forth. I fought like hell to get
> them to buy window-eyes.
> 73
> Butch
> WA0VJR
> Node 3148
> Wallace, ks.
>
>
> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>
>> And where do these employers learn about jaws?
>> In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how this works exactly.
>> after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal Jaws
>> users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an expensive
>> program instead of a largely free one.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>
>>> Karen,
>>> Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
>>> In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the counselors
>>> will
>>> use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
>>> If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but don't know
>>> NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients will need
>>> to
>>> learn one of the two.
>>> So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what the
>>> employer
>>> will allow.
>>> Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more Jaws
>>> scripters
>>> available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
>>> So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31 years in the
>>> business I can say is rubbish.
>>> Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either may be
>>> chosen,
>>> the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the counselor feels
>>> is
>>> best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
>>> When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for non-vocational
>>> purchases,
>>> where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's best
>>> interest
>>> to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back like VR
>>> expenditures do.
>>> Glenn
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>
>>>
>>> The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets reminded,
>>> the
>>> rehab systems track record for facilitating employment for their
>>> clients
>>> is quite poor.
>>> With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients. Making,
>>> speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really
>>> reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative request.
>>> Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom scientific, we
>>> are
>>> creating an employment program where our clients will train in Linux,
>>> needing a solid screen reader solution for the system. We will give you
>>> an
>>> exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool.
>>> Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>
>>>> True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at work,
>>>> and
>>>> probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the client.
>>>> If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would
>>>> advocate
>>>> that
>>>> the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a specific
>>>> job.
>>>> In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than we did
>>>> for
>>>> work related situations.
>>>> So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would indeed
>>>> purchase a JFL product.
>>>> Glenn
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the blinux
>>>> list
>>>> about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to say
>>>> command line, the comments were quite informative.
>>>> Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they
>>>> market
>>>> to the American rehab community.
>>>> how much market research has the rehab community done to support the
>>>> need
>>>> for choices?
>>>> How many rehab counselors support training in Linux?
>>>> one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality
>>>> speech
>>>> is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices. everyone
>>>> brings their needs to the table there.
>>>>
>>>> if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you need to prove there is
>>>> money for them there, from their main source of income.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why
>>>>> FS
>>>>> would
>>>>> not be able to do the same.
>>>>> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game
>>>>> changer,
>>>>> and
>>>>> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
>>>>> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>>>>> Glenn
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, being
>>>>> bought
>>>>> by another company.
>>>>> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools
>>>>> for
>>>>> Linux.
>>>>> That is because as I understand it, Linux is quite like clay. You
>>>>> can
>>>>> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>>>>> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and
>>>>> options
>>>>> for creativity.
>>>>> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
>>>>> characteristics,
>>>>> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>>>>> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid foundation as
>>>>> it
>>>>> were. that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple
>>>>> efforts
>>>>> at
>>>>> inclusion, they created with, and then created in-house adaptive
>>>>> tools
>>>>> for various populations that were built into the system.
>>>>> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at
>>>>> least,
>>>>> the
>>>>> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the
>>>>> former
>>>>> gw micro or nvda to create something that can in theory work.
>>>>> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>>>>> Just my thoughts,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
>>>>>> JFL
>>>>>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring
>>>>>> many
>>>>>> more
>>>>>> users into Linux.
>>>>>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than
>>>>>> Orca.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>>>>> To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>>>>> Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>> writes:
>>>>>> KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
>>>>>> KL> defines Linux usage for everyone. That attitude is dangerous,
>>>>>> KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
>>>>>> KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual. he
>>>>>> has
>>>>>> KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Karen,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>>>>>> qualifications.
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> believe heâ?Td be happy to be corrected about possible technical
>>>>>> inaccuracies in the interview. It may be also a good opportunity
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> find out whatâ?Ts possibly missing in making anybody better
>>>>>> informed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As for â?oabsolute dismissal of what he has not experiencedâ?,
>>>>>> what
>>>>>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard
>>>>>> desktop
>>>>>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common
>>>>>> blind
>>>>>> user
>>>>>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process
>>>>>> text
>>>>>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And letâ?Ts be realistic. We celebrate every single developer
>>>>>> hired
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> improve accessibility. This tells something about the state of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> matters. We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the
>>>>>> kinds
>>>>>> of accessibility problems in all the environments. Lukas works at
>>>>>> his
>>>>>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones
>>>>>> and I
>>>>>> appreciate this opportunity. Anybody else seeing a need to work
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I
>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Milan
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>
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