"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

Linux for blind general discussion blinux-list at redhat.com
Tue Aug 16 17:39:41 UTC 2022

actually, I have a copy I believe of a speech from a convention where an 
nfb member  stated that built in screen readers were bad for the 
blind...so, I doubt that rumor is false.

On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:

> That is hear-say, an old rumor that has been recycled countless times.
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>
> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; "Butch Bussen"
> <butchb at shellworld.net>; "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 11:49 AM
> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT*
> improve Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you
> think the NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very
> sadly mistaken.
> On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>> This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state where the
>> agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
>> Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its problems,
>> but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that society
>> has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes in
>> skills and high expectations.
>> And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of
>> choice.
>> Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but this is
>> organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy.  In fact, the fact
>> that
>> it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any other
>> organization in interpersonal staff issues.
>> And choice does not mean training center choices.
>> Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational course
>> in
>> college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of choice
>> in
>> this regard is different than computer software, where all the choices
>> will
>> reach the same end result.
>> In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I want to
>> use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get, no
>> questions asked.
>> They would not have to fight to get it.
>> I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use the
>> software that the counselor wants them to have.
>> When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch well
>> enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
>> Glenn
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>> To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan
>> Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>> You are right.  In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people and
>> took them out for steak diners and so forth.  I fought like hell to get
>> them to buy window-eyes.
>> 73
>> Butch
>> Node 3148
>> Wallace, ks.
>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>> And where do these employers learn about jaws?
>>> In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how  this works
>>> exactly.
>>> after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal Jaws
>>> users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an expensive
>>> program instead of a largely free one.
>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>   Karen,
>>>>   Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
>>>>   In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the counselors
>>>>   will
>>>>   use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
>>>>   If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but don't
>>>> know
>>>>   NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients will need
>>>> to
>>>>   learn one of the two.
>>>>   So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what the
>>>> employer
>>>>   will allow.
>>>>   Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more Jaws
>>>> scripters
>>>>   available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
>>>>   So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31 years in
>>>> the
>>>>   business I can say is rubbish.
>>>>   Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either may be
>>>>   chosen,
>>>>   the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the counselor feels
>>>> is
>>>>   best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
>>>>   When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for non-vocational
>>>>   purchases,
>>>>   where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's best
>>>>   interest
>>>>   to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back like VR
>>>>   expenditures do.
>>>>   Glenn
>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>>>   From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>   To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>   Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>   <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>   Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
>>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>   The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets reminded,
>>>> the
>>>>   rehab systems track record for facilitating  employment for their
>>>> clients
>>>>   is quite poor.
>>>>   With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients.  Making,
>>>>   speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really
>>>>   reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative request.
>>>>   Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom scientific, we
>>>> are
>>>>   creating an employment program where our clients will train in Linux,
>>>>   needing a solid screen reader solution for the system.  We will give
>>>> you
>>>>   an
>>>>   exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool.
>>>>   Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>>>>   On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>   True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at work,
>>>>>   and
>>>>>   probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the client.
>>>>>   If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would
>>>>> advocate
>>>>>   that
>>>>>   the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a specific
>>>>> job.
>>>>>   In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than we did
>>>>>   for
>>>>>   work related situations.
>>>>>   So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would indeed
>>>>>   purchase a JFL product.
>>>>>   Glenn
>>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>   From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>   To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>   Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>   <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>   Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>>>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>   there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the blinux
>>>>>   list
>>>>>   about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to say
>>>>>   command line,  the comments were quite informative.
>>>>>   Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they
>>>>>   market
>>>>>   to the American rehab community.
>>>>>   how much market research has  the rehab community done to support the
>>>>>   need
>>>>>   for choices?
>>>>>   How many rehab counselors support  training in Linux?
>>>>>   one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality
>>>>> speech
>>>>>   is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.
>>>>> everyone
>>>>>   brings their needs to the table there.
>>>>>   if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you  need to prove there
>>>>> is
>>>>>   money for  them there, from their main source of income.
>>>>>   On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>   Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why
>>>>>> FS
>>>>>>   would
>>>>>>   not be able to do the same.
>>>>>>   If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game
>>>>>>   changer,
>>>>>>   and
>>>>>>   I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
>>>>>>   accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>>>>>>   Glenn
>>>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>   From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>   To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>   Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>   <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>   Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>>>>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>   Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, being
>>>>>>   bought
>>>>>>   by another company.
>>>>>>   Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools
>>>>>>   for
>>>>>>   Linux.
>>>>>>   That is because as I understand it, Linux is  quite like clay. You
>>>>>> can
>>>>>>   mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>>>>>>   personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and
>>>>>>   options
>>>>>>   for creativity.
>>>>>>   however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
>>>>>>   characteristics,
>>>>>>   hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>>>>>>   To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid  foundation as
>>>>>> it
>>>>>>   were.  that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple
>>>>>>   efforts
>>>>>>   at
>>>>>>   inclusion, they  created  with, and then created in-house adaptive
>>>>>>   tools
>>>>>>   for various  populations that were built into the system.
>>>>>>   Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at
>>>>>>   least,
>>>>>>   the
>>>>>>   consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the
>>>>>>   former
>>>>>>   gw  micro or nvda to create something that can in theory  work.
>>>>>>   Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>>>>>>   Just my thoughts,
>>>>>>   On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>   I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
>>>>>>>   JFL
>>>>>>>   I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring
>>>>>>>   many
>>>>>>>   more
>>>>>>>   users into Linux.
>>>>>>>   FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than
>>>>>>>   Orca.
>>>>>>>   Glenn
>>>>>>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>   From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>>>>>>   To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>>>>>>   Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>   Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>>>>>>   Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>>>   "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>> writes:
>>>>>>> KL>  What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> KL>  absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
>>>>>>> KL>  defines Linux usage for everyone.  That attitude is dangerous,
>>>>>>> KL>  because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
>>>>>>> KL>  experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.  he
>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>> KL>  to be expert, it is his job.
>>>>>>>   Hi Karen,
>>>>>>>   I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>>>>>>> qualifications.
>>>>>>>   I
>>>>>>>   also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>   believe heâ?Td be happy to be corrected about possible technical
>>>>>>>   inaccuracies in the interview.  It may be also a good opportunity
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>   find out whatâ?Ts possibly missing in making anybody better
>>>>>>>   informed.
>>>>>>>   As for â?oabsolute dismissal of what he has not experiencedâ?,
>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>   reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard
>>>>>>>   desktop
>>>>>>>   with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common
>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>>   user
>>>>>>>   who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process
>>>>>>>   text
>>>>>>>   documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
>>>>>>>   And letâ?Ts be realistic.  We celebrate every single developer
>>>>>>> hired
>>>>>>>   to
>>>>>>>   improve accessibility.  This tells something about the state of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>   matters.  We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the
>>>>>>>   kinds
>>>>>>>   of accessibility problems in all the environments.  Lukas works at
>>>>>>>   his
>>>>>>>   job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones
>>>>>>>   and I
>>>>>>>   appreciate this opportunity.  Anybody else seeing a need to work
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>   other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I
>>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>>   Regards,
>>>>>>>   Milan

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