"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
Linux for blind general discussion
blinux-list at redhat.com
Tue Aug 16 17:39:41 UTC 2022
actually, I have a copy I believe of a speech from a convention where an
nfb member stated that built in screen readers were bad for the
blind...so, I doubt that rumor is false.
On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> That is hear-say, an old rumor that has been recycled countless times.
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>
> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; "Butch Bussen"
> <butchb at shellworld.net>; "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 11:49 AM
> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>
>
> Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT*
> improve Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you
> think the NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very
> sadly mistaken.
>
>
>
> On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>> This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state where the
>> agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
>> Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its problems,
>> but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that society
>> has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes in
>> skills and high expectations.
>> And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of
>> choice.
>> Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but this is
>> organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy. In fact, the fact
>> that
>> it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any other
>> organization in interpersonal staff issues.
>> And choice does not mean training center choices.
>> Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational course
>> in
>> college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of choice
>> in
>> this regard is different than computer software, where all the choices
>> will
>> reach the same end result.
>> In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I want to
>> use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get, no
>> questions asked.
>> They would not have to fight to get it.
>> I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use the
>> software that the counselor wants them to have.
>> When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch well
>> enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
>>
>> Glenn
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>> To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan
>> Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>
>>
>> You are right. In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people and
>> took them out for steak diners and so forth. I fought like hell to get
>> them to buy window-eyes.
>> 73
>> Butch
>> WA0VJR
>> Node 3148
>> Wallace, ks.
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>
>>> And where do these employers learn about jaws?
>>> In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how this works
>>> exactly.
>>> after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal Jaws
>>> users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an expensive
>>> program instead of a largely free one.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>
>>>> Karen,
>>>> Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
>>>> In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the counselors
>>>> will
>>>> use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
>>>> If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but don't
>>>> know
>>>> NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients will need
>>>> to
>>>> learn one of the two.
>>>> So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what the
>>>> employer
>>>> will allow.
>>>> Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more Jaws
>>>> scripters
>>>> available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
>>>> So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31 years in
>>>> the
>>>> business I can say is rubbish.
>>>> Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either may be
>>>> chosen,
>>>> the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the counselor feels
>>>> is
>>>> best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
>>>> When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for non-vocational
>>>> purchases,
>>>> where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's best
>>>> interest
>>>> to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back like VR
>>>> expenditures do.
>>>> Glenn
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets reminded,
>>>> the
>>>> rehab systems track record for facilitating employment for their
>>>> clients
>>>> is quite poor.
>>>> With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients. Making,
>>>> speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really
>>>> reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative request.
>>>> Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom scientific, we
>>>> are
>>>> creating an employment program where our clients will train in Linux,
>>>> needing a solid screen reader solution for the system. We will give
>>>> you
>>>> an
>>>> exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool.
>>>> Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at work,
>>>>> and
>>>>> probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the client.
>>>>> If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would
>>>>> advocate
>>>>> that
>>>>> the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a specific
>>>>> job.
>>>>> In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than we did
>>>>> for
>>>>> work related situations.
>>>>> So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would indeed
>>>>> purchase a JFL product.
>>>>> Glenn
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the blinux
>>>>> list
>>>>> about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to say
>>>>> command line, the comments were quite informative.
>>>>> Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they
>>>>> market
>>>>> to the American rehab community.
>>>>> how much market research has the rehab community done to support the
>>>>> need
>>>>> for choices?
>>>>> How many rehab counselors support training in Linux?
>>>>> one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality
>>>>> speech
>>>>> is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.
>>>>> everyone
>>>>> brings their needs to the table there.
>>>>>
>>>>> if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you need to prove there
>>>>> is
>>>>> money for them there, from their main source of income.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why
>>>>>> FS
>>>>>> would
>>>>>> not be able to do the same.
>>>>>> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game
>>>>>> changer,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
>>>>>> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, being
>>>>>> bought
>>>>>> by another company.
>>>>>> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> Linux.
>>>>>> That is because as I understand it, Linux is quite like clay. You
>>>>>> can
>>>>>> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>>>>>> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and
>>>>>> options
>>>>>> for creativity.
>>>>>> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
>>>>>> characteristics,
>>>>>> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>>>>>> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid foundation as
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> were. that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple
>>>>>> efforts
>>>>>> at
>>>>>> inclusion, they created with, and then created in-house adaptive
>>>>>> tools
>>>>>> for various populations that were built into the system.
>>>>>> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at
>>>>>> least,
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the
>>>>>> former
>>>>>> gw micro or nvda to create something that can in theory work.
>>>>>> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>>>>>> Just my thoughts,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
>>>>>>> JFL
>>>>>>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring
>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>> users into Linux.
>>>>>>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than
>>>>>>> Orca.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>>>>>> To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>>>>>> Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>> writes:
>>>>>>> KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
>>>>>>> KL> defines Linux usage for everyone. That attitude is dangerous,
>>>>>>> KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
>>>>>>> KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual. he
>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>> KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Karen,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>>>>>>> qualifications.
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> believe heâ?Td be happy to be corrected about possible technical
>>>>>>> inaccuracies in the interview. It may be also a good opportunity
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> find out whatâ?Ts possibly missing in making anybody better
>>>>>>> informed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As for â?oabsolute dismissal of what he has not experiencedâ?,
>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard
>>>>>>> desktop
>>>>>>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common
>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>> user
>>>>>>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process
>>>>>>> text
>>>>>>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And letâ?Ts be realistic. We celebrate every single developer
>>>>>>> hired
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> improve accessibility. This tells something about the state of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> matters. We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the
>>>>>>> kinds
>>>>>>> of accessibility problems in all the environments. Lukas works at
>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones
>>>>>>> and I
>>>>>>> appreciate this opportunity. Anybody else seeing a need to work
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I
>>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> Milan
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>
>
>
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