"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
Linux for blind general discussion
blinux-list at redhat.com
Tue Aug 16 19:12:03 UTC 2022
I'm on my third stint as an NFB member, and am quite intrigued. Who were
the people involved? Also, for the record, who's writing the message below?
I wasn't in NFB at the time of whatever happened. I'd heard that it was
kind of a deal between Freedom Scientific (or whatever it was then) and
Microsoft, but I had no specifics.
Al
On 8/16/22 14:26, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
> Actually, I'd like to know where you got the idea that it's just a
> rumor. It is not. I was personally involved at the time, arguing
> strenuously against the policy. I can give you names of people at the
> NFB who backed the policy if you'd like.
>
> The NFB's reasoning was that a free screen reader would not be as good
> as one you had to pay for. They reasoned that Microsoft had little
> motivation to keep on improving their screen reader but it might be
> enough to drive Freedom Scientific out of business. As a Linux user, I
> felt that reasoning was flawed mainly because I felt free, open
> source screen readers were right around the corner anyway. I believe
> I was using Speakup and something called Nupernicus on Linux at the time.
>
> This is absolutely not a rumor.
>
>
> On 8/16/22 12:31, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>> That is hear-say, an old rumor that has been recycled countless times.
>> Glenn
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>
>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; "Butch Bussen"
>> <butchb at shellworld.net>; "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 11:49 AM
>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>
>>
>> Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT*
>> improve Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you
>> think the NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very
>> sadly mistaken.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>> This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state
>>> where the
>>> agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
>>> Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its
>>> problems,
>>> but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that
>>> society
>>> has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes in
>>> skills and high expectations.
>>> And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of
>>> choice.
>>> Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but
>>> this is
>>> organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy. In fact, the fact
>>> that
>>> it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any other
>>> organization in interpersonal staff issues.
>>> And choice does not mean training center choices.
>>> Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational
>>> course
>>> in
>>> college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of
>>> choice
>>> in
>>> this regard is different than computer software, where all the choices
>>> will
>>> reach the same end result.
>>> In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I
>>> want to
>>> use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get, no
>>> questions asked.
>>> They would not have to fight to get it.
>>> I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use the
>>> software that the counselor wants them to have.
>>> When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch
>>> well
>>> enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
>>>
>>> Glenn
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>>> To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>> Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; <speakup at linux-speakup.org>;
>>> "Milan
>>> Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>
>>>
>>> You are right. In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people and
>>> took them out for steak diners and so forth. I fought like hell to get
>>> them to buy window-eyes.
>>> 73
>>> Butch
>>> WA0VJR
>>> Node 3148
>>> Wallace, ks.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>>
>>>> And where do these employers learn about jaws?
>>>> In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how this works
>>>> exactly.
>>>> after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal
>>>> Jaws
>>>> users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an
>>>> expensive
>>>> program instead of a largely free one.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Karen,
>>>>> Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
>>>>> In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the
>>>>> counselors
>>>>> will
>>>>> use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
>>>>> If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but
>>>>> don't
>>>>> know
>>>>> NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients
>>>>> will need
>>>>> to
>>>>> learn one of the two.
>>>>> So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what the
>>>>> employer
>>>>> will allow.
>>>>> Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more Jaws
>>>>> scripters
>>>>> available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
>>>>> So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31
>>>>> years in
>>>>> the
>>>>> business I can say is rubbish.
>>>>> Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either
>>>>> may be
>>>>> chosen,
>>>>> the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the
>>>>> counselor feels
>>>>> is
>>>>> best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
>>>>> When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for non-vocational
>>>>> purchases,
>>>>> where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's
>>>>> best
>>>>> interest
>>>>> to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back
>>>>> like VR
>>>>> expenditures do.
>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>> <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets
>>>>> reminded,
>>>>> the
>>>>> rehab systems track record for facilitating employment for their
>>>>> clients
>>>>> is quite poor.
>>>>> With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients. Making,
>>>>> speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really
>>>>> reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative request.
>>>>> Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom
>>>>> scientific, we
>>>>> are
>>>>> creating an employment program where our clients will train in
>>>>> Linux,
>>>>> needing a solid screen reader solution for the system. We will
>>>>> give
>>>>> you
>>>>> an
>>>>> exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool.
>>>>> Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows
>>>>>> at work,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the
>>>>>> client.
>>>>>> If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would
>>>>>> advocate
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a
>>>>>> specific
>>>>>> job.
>>>>>> In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than
>>>>>> we did
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> work related situations.
>>>>>> So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would
>>>>>> indeed
>>>>>> purchase a JFL product.
>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>> <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the
>>>>>> blinux
>>>>>> list
>>>>>> about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed
>>>>>> to say
>>>>>> command line, the comments were quite informative.
>>>>>> Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> market
>>>>>> to the American rehab community.
>>>>>> how much market research has the rehab community done to
>>>>>> support the
>>>>>> need
>>>>>> for choices?
>>>>>> How many rehab counselors support training in Linux?
>>>>>> one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality
>>>>>> speech
>>>>>> is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.
>>>>>> everyone
>>>>>> brings their needs to the table there.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you need to prove
>>>>>> there
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> money for them there, from their main source of income.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't
>>>>>>> know why
>>>>>>> FS
>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>> not be able to do the same.
>>>>>>> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game
>>>>>>> changer,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
>>>>>>> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>> <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any
>>>>>>> longer, being
>>>>>>> bought
>>>>>>> by another company.
>>>>>>> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their
>>>>>>> tools
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> Linux.
>>>>>>> That is because as I understand it, Linux is quite like
>>>>>>> clay. You
>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>>>>>>> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> options
>>>>>>> for creativity.
>>>>>>> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
>>>>>>> characteristics,
>>>>>>> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>>>>>>> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid
>>>>>>> foundation as
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> were. that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple
>>>>>>> efforts
>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>> inclusion, they created with, and then created in-house
>>>>>>> adaptive
>>>>>>> tools
>>>>>>> for various populations that were built into the system.
>>>>>>> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at
>>>>>>> least,
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom
>>>>>>> or the
>>>>>>> former
>>>>>>> gw micro or nvda to create something that can in theory work.
>>>>>>> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>>>>>>> Just my thoughts,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
>>>>>>>> JFL
>>>>>>>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would
>>>>>>>> bring
>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>> users into Linux.
>>>>>>>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than
>>>>>>>> Orca.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>>>>>>> To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>>>>>>> Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> writes:
>>>>>>>> KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications,
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
>>>>>>>> KL> defines Linux usage for everyone. That attitude is
>>>>>>>> dangerous,
>>>>>>>> KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
>>>>>>>> KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual. he
>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>> KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Karen,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>>>>>>>> qualifications.
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive
>>>>>>>> feedback and
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> believe heâ?Td be happy to be corrected about possible
>>>>>>>> technical
>>>>>>>> inaccuracies in the interview. It may be also a good
>>>>>>>> opportunity
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> find out whatâ?Ts possibly missing in making anybody better
>>>>>>>> informed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As for â?oabsolute dismissal of what he has not experiencedâ?,
>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more
>>>>>>>> standard
>>>>>>>> desktop
>>>>>>>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common
>>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>>> user
>>>>>>>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and
>>>>>>>> process
>>>>>>>> text
>>>>>>>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And letâ?Ts be realistic. We celebrate every single developer
>>>>>>>> hired
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> improve accessibility. This tells something about the state of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> matters. We cannot expect that a single person will fix all
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> kinds
>>>>>>>> of accessibility problems in all the environments. Lukas
>>>>>>>> works at
>>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent
>>>>>>>> ones
>>>>>>>> and I
>>>>>>>> appreciate this opportunity. Anybody else seeing a need to
>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I
>>>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>> Milan
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>
>
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