"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
Linux for blind general discussion
blinux-list at redhat.com
Wed Aug 17 16:36:50 UTC 2022
speaking personally?
No government employee should be a member of the NfB. ethical conflict
of interest personified.
Karen
On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> Yeah, I had been to a state NFBN convention that year and did the PAC thing.
> Then when the NFB did that, I called up the state treasurer for the NFBN and
> cancelled my PAC plan.
> I told them that they don't care if I can read my money, then they don't
> need any from me.
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> To: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
> Cc: "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>; "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>;
> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:18 AM
> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>
>
> My personal favorite is the rejection of money that could be identified
> by touch. never mind that for honestly thousands of years the practice has
> been common so those with limited education could still engage in commerce.
>
>
>
> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Butch Bussen wrote:
>
>> Yes, I remember that. And what about their oposition to descriptive
>> video,
>> even filed a law sute to get the law thrown out, which it was at that
>> time.
>> 73
>> Butch
>> WA0VJR
>> Node 3148
>> Wallace, ks.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, John G. Heim wrote:
>>
>>> Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT*
>>> improve
>>> Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you think the
>>> NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very sadly
>>> mistaken.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>> This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state where
>>>> the
>>>> agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
>>>> Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its
>>>> problems,
>>>> but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that
>>>> society
>>>> has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes
>>>> in
>>>> skills and high expectations.
>>>> And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of
>>>> choice.
>>>> Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but this
>>>> is
>>>> organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy. In fact, the
>>>> fact
>>>> that
>>>> it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any
>>>> other
>>>> organization in interpersonal staff issues.
>>>> And choice does not mean training center choices.
>>>> Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational
>>>> course
>>>> in
>>>> college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of
>>>> choice
>>>> in
>>>> this regard is different than computer software, where all the
>>>> choices
>>>> will
>>>> reach the same end result.
>>>> In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I
>>>> want
>>>> to
>>>> use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get,
>>>> no
>>>> questions asked.
>>>> They would not have to fight to get it.
>>>> I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use
>>>> the
>>>> software that the counselor wants them to have.
>>>> When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch
>>>> well
>>>> enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
>>>>
>>>> Glenn
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>>>> To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>> Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; <speakup at linux-speakup.org>;
>>>> "Milan
>>>> Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You are right. In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people
>>>> and
>>>> took them out for steak diners and so forth. I fought like hell to
>>>> get
>>>> them to buy window-eyes.
>>>> 73
>>>> Butch
>>>> WA0VJR
>>>> Node 3148
>>>> Wallace, ks.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> And where do these employers learn about jaws?
>>>>> In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how this works
>>>>> exactly.
>>>>> after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal
>>>>> Jaws
>>>>> users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an
>>>>> expensive
>>>>> program instead of a largely free one.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Karen,
>>>>>> Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
>>>>>> In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the
>>>>>> counselors
>>>>>> will
>>>>>> use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
>>>>>> If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but
>>>>>> don't know
>>>>>> NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients
>>>>>> will
>>>>>> need
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> learn one of the two.
>>>>>> So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> employer
>>>>>> will allow.
>>>>>> Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more
>>>>>> Jaws
>>>>>> scripters
>>>>>> available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
>>>>>> So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31
>>>>>> years
>>>>>> in the
>>>>>> business I can say is rubbish.
>>>>>> Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either
>>>>>> may
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> chosen,
>>>>>> the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the
>>>>>> counselor
>>>>>> feels
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
>>>>>> When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for
>>>>>> non-vocational
>>>>>> purchases,
>>>>>> where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's
>>>>>> best
>>>>>> interest
>>>>>> to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back
>>>>>> like VR
>>>>>> expenditures do.
>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>> <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets
>>>>>> reminded,
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> rehab systems track record for facilitating employment for
>>>>>> their
>>>>>> clients
>>>>>> is quite poor.
>>>>>> With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients.
>>>>>> Making,
>>>>>> speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not
>>>>>> really
>>>>>> reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative
>>>>>> request.
>>>>>> Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom
>>>>>> scientific, we
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> creating an employment program where our clients will train in
>>>>>> Linux,
>>>>>> needing a solid screen reader solution for the system. We will
>>>>>> give you
>>>>>> an
>>>>>> exclusive development contract for s millions to create the
>>>>>> tool.
>>>>>> Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows
>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>> work,
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the
>>>>>>> client.
>>>>>>> If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor
>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>> advocate
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a
>>>>>>> specific
>>>>>>> job.
>>>>>>> In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use
>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>> we did
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> work related situations.
>>>>>>> So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would
>>>>>>> indeed
>>>>>>> purchase a JFL product.
>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>> <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the
>>>>>>> blinux
>>>>>>> list
>>>>>>> about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed
>>>>>>> to say
>>>>>>> command line, the comments were quite informative.
>>>>>>> Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead
>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>> market
>>>>>>> to the American rehab community.
>>>>>>> how much market research has the rehab community done to
>>>>>>> support the
>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>> for choices?
>>>>>>> How many rehab counselors support training in Linux?
>>>>>>> one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor
>>>>>>> quality
>>>>>>> speech
>>>>>>> is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.
>>>>>>> everyone
>>>>>>> brings their needs to the table there.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you need to prove
>>>>>>> there is
>>>>>>> money for them there, from their main source of income.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't
>>>>>>>> know why
>>>>>>>> FS
>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>> not be able to do the same.
>>>>>>>> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real
>>>>>>>> game
>>>>>>>> changer,
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start
>>>>>>>> seeing
>>>>>>>> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>> <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any
>>>>>>>> longer, being
>>>>>>>> bought
>>>>>>>> by another company.
>>>>>>>> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created
>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>> tools
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> Linux.
>>>>>>>> That is because as I understand it, Linux is quite like
>>>>>>>> clay. You
>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>>>>>>>> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and
>>>>>>>> changes
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> options
>>>>>>>> for creativity.
>>>>>>>> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
>>>>>>>> characteristics,
>>>>>>>> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>>>>>>>> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid
>>>>>>>> foundation as
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>> were. that is part of why there have needed to be so few
>>>>>>>> Apple
>>>>>>>> efforts
>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>> inclusion, they created with, and then created in-house
>>>>>>>> adaptive
>>>>>>>> tools
>>>>>>>> for various populations that were built into the system.
>>>>>>>> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in
>>>>>>>> theory
>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>> least,
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for
>>>>>>>> freedom
>>>>>>>> or the
>>>>>>>> former
>>>>>>>> gw micro or nvda to create something that can in theory
>>>>>>>> work.
>>>>>>>> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For
>>>>>>>>> Linux.
>>>>>>>>> JFL
>>>>>>>>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it
>>>>>>>>> would bring
>>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>> users into Linux.
>>>>>>>>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more
>>>>>>>>> robust
>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>> Orca.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>>>>>>>> To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>>>>>>>> Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> writes:
>>>>>>>>> KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual
>>>>>>>>> qualifications,
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as
>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>> KL> he
>>>>>>>>> KL> defines Linux usage for everyone. That attitude is
>>>>>>>>> KL> dangerous,
>>>>>>>>> KL> because he is educating those outside of the
>>>>>>>>> KL> accessibility
>>>>>>>>> KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is
>>>>>>>>> factual.
>>>>>>>>> KL> he
>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>> KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Karen,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>>>>>>>>> qualifications.
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive
>>>>>>>>> feedback and
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> believe heâ?Td be happy to be corrected about possible
>>>>>>>>> technical
>>>>>>>>> inaccuracies in the interview. It may be also a good
>>>>>>>>> opportunity
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> find out whatâ?Ts possibly missing in making anybody
>>>>>>>>> better
>>>>>>>>> informed.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As for â?oabsolute dismissal of what he has not
>>>>>>>>> experiencedâ?�,
>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more
>>>>>>>>> standard
>>>>>>>>> desktop
>>>>>>>>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a
>>>>>>>>> common
>>>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>>>> user
>>>>>>>>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and
>>>>>>>>> process
>>>>>>>>> text
>>>>>>>>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users,
>>>>>>>>> etc.?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And letâ?Ts be realistic. We celebrate every single
>>>>>>>>> developer
>>>>>>>>> hired
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> improve accessibility. This tells something about the
>>>>>>>>> state of
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> matters. We cannot expect that a single person will fix
>>>>>>>>> all the
>>>>>>>>> kinds
>>>>>>>>> of accessibility problems in all the environments. Lukas
>>>>>>>>> works at
>>>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>>>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as
>>>>>>>>> urgent ones
>>>>>>>>> and I
>>>>>>>>> appreciate this opportunity. Anybody else seeing a need
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees
>>>>>>>>> fit,
>>>>>>>>> as I
>>>>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>> Milan
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
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