"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
Linux for blind general discussion
blinux-list at redhat.com
Wed Aug 17 16:18:13 UTC 2022
My personal favorite is the rejection of money that could be identified
by touch. never mind that for honestly thousands of years the practice has
been common so those with limited education could still engage in commerce.
On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Butch Bussen wrote:
> Yes, I remember that. And what about their oposition to descriptive video,
> even filed a law sute to get the law thrown out, which it was at that time.
> 73
> Butch
> WA0VJR
> Node 3148
> Wallace, ks.
>
>
> On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, John G. Heim wrote:
>
>> Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT* improve
>> Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you think the
>> NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very sadly
>> mistaken.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>> > This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state where
>> > the
>> > agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
>> > Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its
>> > problems,
>> > but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that
>> > society
>> > has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes in
>> > skills and high expectations.
>> > And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of
>> > choice.
>> > Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but this
>> > is
>> > organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy. In fact, the fact
>> > that
>> > it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any other
>> > organization in interpersonal staff issues.
>> > And choice does not mean training center choices.
>> > Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational
>> > course
>> > in
>> > college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of
>> > choice
>> > in
>> > this regard is different than computer software, where all the choices
>> > will
>> > reach the same end result.
>> > In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I want
>> > to
>> > use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get, no
>> > questions asked.
>> > They would not have to fight to get it.
>> > I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use the
>> > software that the counselor wants them to have.
>> > When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch
>> > well
>> > enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
>> >
>> > Glenn
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>> > To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> > Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; <speakup at linux-speakup.org>;
>> > "Milan
>> > Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> > Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
>> > Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>> >
>> >
>> > You are right. In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people and
>> > took them out for steak diners and so forth. I fought like hell to get
>> > them to buy window-eyes.
>> > 73
>> > Butch
>> > WA0VJR
>> > Node 3148
>> > Wallace, ks.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>> >
>> > > And where do these employers learn about jaws?
>> > > In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how this works
>> > > exactly.
>> > > after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal
>> > > Jaws
>> > > users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an
>> > > expensive
>> > > program instead of a largely free one.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > Karen,
>> > > > Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
>> > > > In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the
>> > > > counselors
>> > > > will
>> > > > use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
>> > > > If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but
>> > > > don't know
>> > > > NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients will
>> > > > need
>> > > > to
>> > > > learn one of the two.
>> > > > So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what the
>> > > > employer
>> > > > will allow.
>> > > > Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more Jaws
>> > > > scripters
>> > > > available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
>> > > > So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31 years
>> > > > in the
>> > > > business I can say is rubbish.
>> > > > Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either may
>> > > > be
>> > > > chosen,
>> > > > the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the counselor
>> > > > feels
>> > > > is
>> > > > best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
>> > > > When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for non-vocational
>> > > > purchases,
>> > > > where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's
>> > > > best
>> > > > interest
>> > > > to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back
>> > > > like VR
>> > > > expenditures do.
>> > > > Glenn
>> > > >
>> > > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > > From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> > > > To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>> > > > Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>> > > > <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> > > > <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> > > > Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
>> > > > Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets
>> > > > reminded,
>> > > > the
>> > > > rehab systems track record for facilitating employment for their
>> > > > clients
>> > > > is quite poor.
>> > > > With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients.
>> > > > Making,
>> > > > speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really
>> > > > reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative
>> > > > request.
>> > > > Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom
>> > > > scientific, we
>> > > > are
>> > > > creating an employment program where our clients will train in
>> > > > Linux,
>> > > > needing a solid screen reader solution for the system. We will
>> > > > give you
>> > > > an
>> > > > exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool.
>> > > > Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at
>> > > > > work,
>> > > > > and
>> > > > > probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the
>> > > > > client.
>> > > > > If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would
>> > > > > advocate
>> > > > > that
>> > > > > the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a
>> > > > > specific
>> > > > > job.
>> > > > > In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than
>> > > > > we did
>> > > > > for
>> > > > > work related situations.
>> > > > > So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would
>> > > > > indeed
>> > > > > purchase a JFL product.
>> > > > > Glenn
>> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > > > From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> > > > > To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>> > > > > Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>> > > > > <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> > > > > <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> > > > > Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>> > > > > Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the
>> > > > > blinux
>> > > > > list
>> > > > > about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed
>> > > > > to say
>> > > > > command line, the comments were quite informative.
>> > > > > Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead
>> > > > > they
>> > > > > market
>> > > > > to the American rehab community.
>> > > > > how much market research has the rehab community done to
>> > > > > support the
>> > > > > need
>> > > > > for choices?
>> > > > > How many rehab counselors support training in Linux?
>> > > > > one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor
>> > > > > quality
>> > > > > speech
>> > > > > is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.
>> > > > > everyone
>> > > > > brings their needs to the table there.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you need to prove
>> > > > > there is
>> > > > > money for them there, from their main source of income.
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't
>> > > > > > know why
>> > > > > > FS
>> > > > > > would
>> > > > > > not be able to do the same.
>> > > > > > If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real
>> > > > > > game
>> > > > > > changer,
>> > > > > > and
>> > > > > > I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start
>> > > > > > seeing
>> > > > > > accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>> > > > > > Glenn
>> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > > > > From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> > > > > > To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>> > > > > > Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>> > > > > > <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> > > > > > <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> > > > > > Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>> > > > > > Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any
>> > > > > > longer, being
>> > > > > > bought
>> > > > > > by another company.
>> > > > > > Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their
>> > > > > > tools
>> > > > > > for
>> > > > > > Linux.
>> > > > > > That is because as I understand it, Linux is quite like
>> > > > > > clay. You
>> > > > > > can
>> > > > > > mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>> > > > > > personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes
>> > > > > > and
>> > > > > > options
>> > > > > > for creativity.
>> > > > > > however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
>> > > > > > characteristics,
>> > > > > > hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>> > > > > > To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid
>> > > > > > foundation as
>> > > > > > it
>> > > > > > were. that is part of why there have needed to be so few
>> > > > > > Apple
>> > > > > > efforts
>> > > > > > at
>> > > > > > inclusion, they created with, and then created in-house
>> > > > > > adaptive
>> > > > > > tools
>> > > > > > for various populations that were built into the system.
>> > > > > > Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory
>> > > > > > at
>> > > > > > least,
>> > > > > > the
>> > > > > > consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom
>> > > > > > or the
>> > > > > > former
>> > > > > > gw micro or nvda to create something that can in theory
>> > > > > > work.
>> > > > > > Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>> > > > > > Just my thoughts,
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > > I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For
>> > > > > > > Linux.
>> > > > > > > JFL
>> > > > > > > I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it
>> > > > > > > would bring
>> > > > > > > many
>> > > > > > > more
>> > > > > > > users into Linux.
>> > > > > > > FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust
>> > > > > > > than
>> > > > > > > Orca.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Glenn
>> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > > > > > From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>> > > > > > > To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>> > > > > > > Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>> > > > > > > Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > > > "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> > > > > > > > > > > > writes:
>> > > > > > > KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual
>> > > > > > > qualifications,
>> > > > > > > and
>> > > > > > > KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if
>> > > > > > > KL> he
>> > > > > > > KL> defines Linux usage for everyone. That attitude is
>> > > > > > > KL> dangerous,
>> > > > > > > KL> because he is educating those outside of the
>> > > > > > > KL> accessibility
>> > > > > > > KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.
>> > > > > > > KL> he
>> > > > > > > has
>> > > > > > > KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Hi Karen,
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>> > > > > > > qualifications.
>> > > > > > > I
>> > > > > > > also know first hand that he is open to constructive
>> > > > > > > feedback and
>> > > > > > > I
>> > > > > > > believe heâ?Td be happy to be corrected about possible
>> > > > > > > technical
>> > > > > > > inaccuracies in the interview. It may be also a good
>> > > > > > > opportunity
>> > > > > > > to
>> > > > > > > find out whatâ?Ts possibly missing in making anybody
>> > > > > > > better
>> > > > > > > informed.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > As for â?oabsolute dismissal of what he has not
>> > > > > > > experiencedâ?�,
>> > > > > > > what
>> > > > > > > reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more
>> > > > > > > standard
>> > > > > > > desktop
>> > > > > > > with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a
>> > > > > > > common
>> > > > > > > blind
>> > > > > > > user
>> > > > > > > who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and
>> > > > > > > process
>> > > > > > > text
>> > > > > > > documents, to be compatible with other computer users,
>> > > > > > > etc.?
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > And letâ?Ts be realistic. We celebrate every single
>> > > > > > > developer
>> > > > > > > hired
>> > > > > > > to
>> > > > > > > improve accessibility. This tells something about the
>> > > > > > > state of
>> > > > > > > the
>> > > > > > > matters. We cannot expect that a single person will fix
>> > > > > > > all the
>> > > > > > > kinds
>> > > > > > > of accessibility problems in all the environments. Lukas
>> > > > > > > works at
>> > > > > > > his
>> > > > > > > job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as
>> > > > > > > urgent ones
>> > > > > > > and I
>> > > > > > > appreciate this opportunity. Anybody else seeing a need to
>> > > > > > > work
>> > > > > > > on
>> > > > > > > other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit,
>> > > > > > > as I
>> > > > > > > do.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Regards,
>> > > > > > > Milan
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>
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