"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
Linux for blind general discussion
blinux-list at redhat.com
Wed Aug 17 18:14:30 UTC 2022
Good morning everyone I have a basic question regarding this distribution.
Does orca come with it, or is it something that must be incorporated after
installation? If orca does come with the distribution meeting is a part of
it. What is the download link for the ISO image?
I currently have Ubuntu in a virtual machine on my MacBook Pro. I know I'm
writing this on a Windows PC but that's because there is no effective
dictation software for the Mac at present time. Dragon on the Windows
machine is it.
Unfortunately my last use of my Ubuntu distribution meeting already set up
with orca installed etc. was six months ago. Because I'm needing to get back
into using Lennix for some things I've decided it's time to start making
certain I know how to do this by practicing.
I do have something Lennix like on the PC it's the Microsoft shell
implementation. Of Ubuntu in a shell better known as Wsl.
In closing, I used to use Fedora many years ago when I was friends with one
of the principal people involved in the Speakup project. Unfortunately some
of you may know that that person passed away some years ago "the late
William F Acker" this thread is of some interest to me because I kinda would
like to get back to using Fedora. Rather than Ubuntu.
I look forward to reading everyone's comments. Please be aware that the
above has been dictated. So there may in fact be unwanted mistakes. No
matter what platform one uses, dictation software will never get what is
said absolutely correctly. So if there's something you really truly don't
understand, please reach out to me and asked me what did I really mean.
Finally, if people wish to correspond directly with me off this list, please
send all email to the email address that I read the most. That is
maurice at maurice-amines.com.
-----Original Message-----
From: Blinux-list <blinux-list-bounces at redhat.com> On Behalf Of Linux for
blind general discussion
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 12:26 AM
To: Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list at redhat.com>
Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
In orca in a terminal environment I can use vi variants other than elvis by
use of the -e option. That -e option turns what would be a screen-oriented
editor into a line-oriented editor. Once that happens I can confidently
know I'll be working with smaller objects than the entire screen. When I
used dos professionally my go to tool for editing was edlin and not edit. I
can and do use emacs but not to the level the experts with emacs do.
Jude <jdashiel at panix dot com> .
On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:
> Let me chime in here from the opposition point of view.
>
> Having used both the paid screen readers (JAWS and also GwMicro) and many
of the free screen readers, The paid ones may have more features and are
probably tuned a bit more closely to work in a specified OS, but the free
ones often times offer more latitude when dealing with non-standard content.
>
> Now, some other considerations, not all computer systems can handle a full
GUI (case in point: the RaspberryPi 3 series of which I have 1). So, the use
of a console there is a must and I use several of the console available
screen readers, Like BrltTY, Emacsspeak, Speakup and others). There are
times when this is very useful when the full GUI might present some issues.
>
> Now, this doesn?t mean I haven?t stopped using full GUI interfaces. I
have, for the most part, stuck with either JAWS or NVDA on windows (what one
can?t read, the other might), Voiceover on OS X and any of the half dozen or
so screen readers available in Linux (ORCA being the primary for GUI and
anything else for console as needed). Each has their flaws and each has
their strengths and it doesn?t hurt to know them all. Believe me, try using
VI or NANO in a terminal with ORCA. It doesn?t work very well. However, the
others work very well there, but not so well inside the GUI. It all depends
on what you need to do. It?s called using the right tool for the right job.
>
> -Eric
> From the Central Offices of the Technomage Guild, Tool Maintenance Dept.
>
>
> > On Aug 16, 2022, at 11:26 AM, Linux for blind general discussion
<blinux-list at redhat.com> wrote:
> >
> > Actually, I'd like to know where you got the idea that it's just a
rumor. It is not. I was personally involved at the time, arguing strenuously
against the policy. I can give you names of people at the NFB who backed the
policy if you'd like.
> >
> > The NFB's reasoning was that a free screen reader would not be as good
as one you had to pay for. They reasoned that Microsoft had little
motivation to keep on improving their screen reader but it might be enough
to drive Freedom Scientific out of business. As a Linux user, I felt that
reasoning was flawed mainly because I felt free, open source screen readers
were right around the corner anyway. I believe I was using Speakup and
something called Nupernicus on Linux at the time.
> >
> > This is absolutely not a rumor.
> >
> >
> > On 8/16/22 12:31, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >> That is hear-say, an old rumor that has been recycled countless times.
> >> Glenn
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>
> >> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; "Butch Bussen"
> >> <butchb at shellworld.net>; "Karen Lewellen"
> >> <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> >> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> >> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 11:49 AM
> >> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>
> >>
> >> Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT*
> >> improve Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If
> >> you think the NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you
> >> are very sadly mistaken.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >>> This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state
> >>> where the agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
> >>> Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its
> >>> problems, but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that
> >>> knows that society has low expectations of the Blind, and this is
> >>> why the NFB believes in skills and high expectations.
> >>> And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect
> >>> of choice.
> >>> Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but
> >>> this is organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy. In
> >>> fact, the fact that it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no
> >>> different than any other organization in interpersonal staff
> >>> issues.
> >>> And choice does not mean training center choices.
> >>> Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational
> >>> course in college, there are things you have to take, so to me,
> >>> the lack of choice in this regard is different than computer
> >>> software, where all the choices will reach the same end result.
> >>> In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I
> >>> want to use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they
> >>> would get, no questions asked.
> >>> They would not have to fight to get it.
> >>> I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use
> >>> the software that the counselor wants them to have.
> >>> When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know
> >>> Butch well enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
> >>>
> >>> Glenn
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
> >>> To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> >>> Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>;
> >>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> >>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
> >>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> You are right. In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people
> >>> and took them out for steak diners and so forth. I fought like
> >>> hell to get them to buy window-eyes.
> >>> 73
> >>> Butch
> >>> WA0VJR
> >>> Node 3148
> >>> Wallace, ks.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> And where do these employers learn about jaws?
> >>>> In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how this works
> >>>> exactly.
> >>>> after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not
> >>>> personal Jaws users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell
> >>>> them on an expensive program instead of a largely free one.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Karen,
> >>>>> Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
> >>>>> In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the
counselors
> >>>>> will
> >>>>> use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
> >>>>> If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but
> >>>>> don't know
> >>>>> NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients
> >>>>> will need to
> >>>>> learn one of the two.
> >>>>> So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what
> >>>>> the employer
> >>>>> will allow.
> >>>>> Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more
> >>>>> Jaws scripters
> >>>>> available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
> >>>>> So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31
> >>>>> years in the
> >>>>> business I can say is rubbish.
> >>>>> Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either may
be
> >>>>> chosen,
> >>>>> the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the
> >>>>> counselor feels is
> >>>>> best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
> >>>>> When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for non-vocational
> >>>>> purchases,
> >>>>> where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's
best
> >>>>> interest
> >>>>> to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back
like VR
> >>>>> expenditures do.
> >>>>> Glenn
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> >>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> >>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
<pdm at zamazal.org>;
> >>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
> >>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets
> >>>>> reminded, the
> >>>>> rehab systems track record for facilitating employment for
> >>>>> their clients
> >>>>> is quite poor.
> >>>>> With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients. Making,
> >>>>> speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really
> >>>>> reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative request.
> >>>>> Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom
> >>>>> scientific, we are
> >>>>> creating an employment program where our clients will train in
Linux,
> >>>>> needing a solid screen reader solution for the system. We
> >>>>> will give you
> >>>>> an
> >>>>> exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool.
> >>>>> Fs would likely say where do we sign?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at
work,
> >>>>>> and
> >>>>>> probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the
client.
> >>>>>> If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor
> >>>>>> would advocate
> >>>>>> that
> >>>>>> the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a
> >>>>>> specific job.
> >>>>>> In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than we
did
> >>>>>> for
> >>>>>> work related situations.
> >>>>>> So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would
indeed
> >>>>>> purchase a JFL product.
> >>>>>> Glenn
> >>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> >>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> >>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
<pdm at zamazal.org>;
> >>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the
blinux
> >>>>>> list
> >>>>>> about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to
say
> >>>>>> command line, the comments were quite informative.
> >>>>>> Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead
they
> >>>>>> market
> >>>>>> to the American rehab community.
> >>>>>> how much market research has the rehab community done to support
the
> >>>>>> need
> >>>>>> for choices?
> >>>>>> How many rehab counselors support training in Linux?
> >>>>>> one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor
> >>>>>> quality speech
> >>>>>> is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.
> >>>>>> everyone
> >>>>>> brings their needs to the table there.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you need to prove
> >>>>>> there is
> >>>>>> money for them there, from their main source of income.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't
> >>>>>>> know why FS
> >>>>>>> would
> >>>>>>> not be able to do the same.
> >>>>>>> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game
> >>>>>>> changer,
> >>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
> >>>>>>> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
> >>>>>>> Glenn
> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> >>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> >>>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
<pdm at zamazal.org>;
> >>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer,
being
> >>>>>>> bought
> >>>>>>> by another company.
> >>>>>>> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their
tools
> >>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>> Linux.
> >>>>>>> That is because as I understand it, Linux is quite like
> >>>>>>> clay. You can
> >>>>>>> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
> >>>>>>> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes
and
> >>>>>>> options
> >>>>>>> for creativity.
> >>>>>>> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
> >>>>>>> characteristics,
> >>>>>>> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
> >>>>>>> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid
> >>>>>>> foundation as it
> >>>>>>> were. that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple
> >>>>>>> efforts
> >>>>>>> at
> >>>>>>> inclusion, they created with, and then created in-house
adaptive
> >>>>>>> tools
> >>>>>>> for various populations that were built into the system.
> >>>>>>> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at
> >>>>>>> least,
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or
the
> >>>>>>> former
> >>>>>>> gw micro or nvda to create something that can in theory work.
> >>>>>>> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
> >>>>>>> Just my thoughts,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
> >>>>>>>> JFL
> >>>>>>>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would
bring
> >>>>>>>> many
> >>>>>>>> more
> >>>>>>>> users into Linux.
> >>>>>>>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than
> >>>>>>>> Orca.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Glenn
> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>>>> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
> >>>>>>>> To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
> >>>>>>>> Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> writes:
> >>>>>>>> KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual
> >>>>>>>> KL> qualifications,
> >>>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>>> KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if
> >>>>>>>> KL> he defines Linux usage for everyone. That attitude is
> >>>>>>>> KL> dangerous, because he is educating those outside of the
> >>>>>>>> KL> accessibility experiences, who will believe his
> >>>>>>>> KL> ignorance is factual. he
> >>>>>>>> has
> >>>>>>>> KL> to be expert, it is his job.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Hi Karen,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
> >>>>>>>> qualifications.
> >>>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive
> >>>>>>>> feedback and I
> >>>>>>>> believe he??Td be happy to be corrected about possible
technical
> >>>>>>>> inaccuracies in the interview. It may be also a good
> >>>>>>>> opportunity to
> >>>>>>>> find out what??Ts possibly missing in making anybody better
> >>>>>>>> informed.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> As for ??oabsolute dismissal of what he has not
> >>>>>>>> experienced???, what
> >>>>>>>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more
standard
> >>>>>>>> desktop
> >>>>>>>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a
> >>>>>>>> common blind
> >>>>>>>> user
> >>>>>>>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and
process
> >>>>>>>> text
> >>>>>>>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> And let??Ts be realistic. We celebrate every single
> >>>>>>>> developer hired
> >>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>> improve accessibility. This tells something about the
> >>>>>>>> state of the
> >>>>>>>> matters. We cannot expect that a single person will fix all
the
> >>>>>>>> kinds
> >>>>>>>> of accessibility problems in all the environments. Lukas works
at
> >>>>>>>> his
> >>>>>>>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent
ones
> >>>>>>>> and I
> >>>>>>>> appreciate this opportunity. Anybody else seeing a need to
> >>>>>>>> work on
> >>>>>>>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit,
> >>>>>>>> as I do.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Regards,
> >>>>>>>> Milan
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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