"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
Linux for blind general discussion
blinux-list at redhat.com
Wed Aug 17 20:46:14 UTC 2022
Glen,
you are missing the point.
A commission board, at least if constructed with integrity serves as a
watchdog for your organization's activities.
Making sure that you act, objectively, and above influence with government
funding.
That role differs from a public servant, like yourself.
In fact that the commission has members from both organizations is
exactly why you should not be a member.
if, as you said, the state has an Nfb philosophy, I wonder just how above
influence that commission actually is, lip service attendance does not
translate to the statement you freely made.
Honestly, i wish I knew someone with Nebraska public radio. there is a
investigative, data journalism piece right here, exploring how objective
your office is in fact.
On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> Karen,
> In Nebraska, the commission board attends both consumer groups' state
> conventions.
> So there is total transparency within the consumer groups.
> The agency sends clients to both conventions for educational purposes.
> Some can go to either national convention on the state.
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>;
> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 2:06 PM
> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>
>
> wrong.
> Your first duty is to those clients You serve. as illustrated here the Nfb
> used their ability to reach insiders to influence policy to the detriment
> of the broader community...same can clearly be said for freedom
> scientific.
> That you stated clearly that your rehab system runs on an nfb philosophy
> illustrates my point perfectly.
> There are countless legal terms for such conflicts of interest, I dare
> say if you were serving any other clientele your government watchdog would
> put a stop to the practice.
> allows the organization to have undue almost antitrust influence on
> people's lives.
>
>
>
> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>
>> I don't think so, we are people first, and being a government employee
>> should not preclude personal rights.
>> Besides, I attended the conventions for CEU credits, but I never joined
>> with
>> dues.
>> Glenn
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim"
>> <jheim at wisc.edu>;
>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:36 AM
>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>
>>
>> speaking personally?
>> No government employee should be a member of the NfB. ethical conflict
>> of interest personified.
>>
>> Karen
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>
>>> Yeah, I had been to a state NFBN convention that year and did the PAC
>>> thing.
>>> Then when the NFB did that, I called up the state treasurer for the NFBN
>>> and
>>> cancelled my PAC plan.
>>> I told them that they don't care if I can read my money, then they don't
>>> need any from me.
>>> Glenn
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>> To: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>>> Cc: "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>; "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>;
>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:18 AM
>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>
>>>
>>> My personal favorite is the rejection of money that could be identified
>>> by touch. never mind that for honestly thousands of years the practice
>>> has
>>> been common so those with limited education could still engage in
>>> commerce.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Butch Bussen wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yes, I remember that. And what about their oposition to descriptive
>>>> video,
>>>> even filed a law sute to get the law thrown out, which it was at that
>>>> time.
>>>> 73
>>>> Butch
>>>> WA0VJR
>>>> Node 3148
>>>> Wallace, ks.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT*
>>>>> improve
>>>>> Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you think
>>>>> the
>>>>> NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very sadly
>>>>> mistaken.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>> This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state
>>>>>> where
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
>>>>>> Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its
>>>>>> problems,
>>>>>> but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that
>>>>>> society
>>>>>> has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> skills and high expectations.
>>>>>> And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> choice.
>>>>>> Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy. In fact, the
>>>>>> fact
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any
>>>>>> other
>>>>>> organization in interpersonal staff issues.
>>>>>> And choice does not mean training center choices.
>>>>>> Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational
>>>>>> course
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of
>>>>>> choice
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> this regard is different than computer software, where all the
>>>>>> choices
>>>>>> will
>>>>>> reach the same end result.
>>>>>> In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I
>>>>>> want
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get,
>>>>>> no
>>>>>> questions asked.
>>>>>> They would not have to fight to get it.
>>>>>> I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> software that the counselor wants them to have.
>>>>>> When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch
>>>>>> well
>>>>>> enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>>>>>> To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>> Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; <speakup at linux-speakup.org>;
>>>>>> "Milan
>>>>>> Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You are right. In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> took them out for steak diners and so forth. I fought like hell to
>>>>>> get
>>>>>> them to buy window-eyes.
>>>>>> 73
>>>>>> Butch
>>>>>> WA0VJR
>>>>>> Node 3148
>>>>>> Wallace, ks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And where do these employers learn about jaws?
>>>>>>> In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how this works
>>>>>>> exactly.
>>>>>>> after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal
>>>>>>> Jaws
>>>>>>> users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an
>>>>>>> expensive
>>>>>>> program instead of a largely free one.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Karen,
>>>>>>>> Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
>>>>>>>> In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the
>>>>>>>> counselors
>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>> use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
>>>>>>>> If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but
>>>>>>>> don't know
>>>>>>>> NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients
>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> learn one of the two.
>>>>>>>> So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> employer
>>>>>>>> will allow.
>>>>>>>> Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more
>>>>>>>> Jaws
>>>>>>>> scripters
>>>>>>>> available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
>>>>>>>> So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31
>>>>>>>> years
>>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>>> business I can say is rubbish.
>>>>>>>> Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either
>>>>>>>> may
>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> chosen,
>>>>>>>> the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the
>>>>>>>> counselor
>>>>>>>> feels
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
>>>>>>>> When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for
>>>>>>>> non-vocational
>>>>>>>> purchases,
>>>>>>>> where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's
>>>>>>>> best
>>>>>>>> interest
>>>>>>>> to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back
>>>>>>>> like VR
>>>>>>>> expenditures do.
>>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>> <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets
>>>>>>>> reminded,
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> rehab systems track record for facilitating employment for
>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>> clients
>>>>>>>> is quite poor.
>>>>>>>> With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients.
>>>>>>>> Making,
>>>>>>>> speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not
>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>> reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative
>>>>>>>> request.
>>>>>>>> Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom
>>>>>>>> scientific, we
>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>> creating an employment program where our clients will train in
>>>>>>>> Linux,
>>>>>>>> needing a solid screen reader solution for the system. We will
>>>>>>>> give you
>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>> exclusive development contract for s millions to create the
>>>>>>>> tool.
>>>>>>>> Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows
>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>> work,
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the
>>>>>>>>> client.
>>>>>>>>> If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor
>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>> advocate
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a
>>>>>>>>> specific
>>>>>>>>> job.
>>>>>>>>> In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use
>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>> we did
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> work related situations.
>>>>>>>>> So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would
>>>>>>>>> indeed
>>>>>>>>> purchase a JFL product.
>>>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>>> <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the
>>>>>>>>> blinux
>>>>>>>>> list
>>>>>>>>> about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed
>>>>>>>>> to say
>>>>>>>>> command line, the comments were quite informative.
>>>>>>>>> Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead
>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>> market
>>>>>>>>> to the American rehab community.
>>>>>>>>> how much market research has the rehab community done to
>>>>>>>>> support the
>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>> for choices?
>>>>>>>>> How many rehab counselors support training in Linux?
>>>>>>>>> one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor
>>>>>>>>> quality
>>>>>>>>> speech
>>>>>>>>> is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.
>>>>>>>>> everyone
>>>>>>>>> brings their needs to the table there.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you need to prove
>>>>>>>>> there is
>>>>>>>>> money for them there, from their main source of income.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't
>>>>>>>>>> know why
>>>>>>>>>> FS
>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>> not be able to do the same.
>>>>>>>>>> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real
>>>>>>>>>> game
>>>>>>>>>> changer,
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start
>>>>>>>>>> seeing
>>>>>>>>>> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>>>>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>>>> <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any
>>>>>>>>>> longer, being
>>>>>>>>>> bought
>>>>>>>>>> by another company.
>>>>>>>>>> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created
>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>> tools
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> Linux.
>>>>>>>>>> That is because as I understand it, Linux is quite like
>>>>>>>>>> clay. You
>>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>>> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>>>>>>>>>> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and
>>>>>>>>>> changes
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> options
>>>>>>>>>> for creativity.
>>>>>>>>>> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
>>>>>>>>>> characteristics,
>>>>>>>>>> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>>>>>>>>>> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid
>>>>>>>>>> foundation as
>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>> were. that is part of why there have needed to be so few
>>>>>>>>>> Apple
>>>>>>>>>> efforts
>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>> inclusion, they created with, and then created in-house
>>>>>>>>>> adaptive
>>>>>>>>>> tools
>>>>>>>>>> for various populations that were built into the system.
>>>>>>>>>> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in
>>>>>>>>>> theory
>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>> least,
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for
>>>>>>>>>> freedom
>>>>>>>>>> or the
>>>>>>>>>> former
>>>>>>>>>> gw micro or nvda to create something that can in theory
>>>>>>>>>> work.
>>>>>>>>>> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For
>>>>>>>>>>> Linux.
>>>>>>>>>>> JFL
>>>>>>>>>>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it
>>>>>>>>>>> would bring
>>>>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>> users into Linux.
>>>>>>>>>>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more
>>>>>>>>>>> robust
>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>> Orca.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>> KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual
>>>>>>>>>>> qualifications,
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as
>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>> KL> he
>>>>>>>>>>> KL> defines Linux usage for everyone. That attitude is
>>>>>>>>>>> KL> dangerous,
>>>>>>>>>>> KL> because he is educating those outside of the
>>>>>>>>>>> KL> accessibility
>>>>>>>>>>> KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is
>>>>>>>>>>> factual.
>>>>>>>>>>> KL> he
>>>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>>>> KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Karen,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>>>>>>>>>>> qualifications.
>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive
>>>>>>>>>>> feedback and
>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>> believe heâ?Td be happy to be corrected about possible
>>>>>>>>>>> technical
>>>>>>>>>>> inaccuracies in the interview. It may be also a good
>>>>>>>>>>> opportunity
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> find out whatâ?Ts possibly missing in making anybody
>>>>>>>>>>> better
>>>>>>>>>>> informed.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As for â?oabsolute dismissal of what he has not
>>>>>>>>>>> experiencedâ?�,
>>>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>>>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more
>>>>>>>>>>> standard
>>>>>>>>>>> desktop
>>>>>>>>>>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a
>>>>>>>>>>> common
>>>>>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>>>>>> user
>>>>>>>>>>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and
>>>>>>>>>>> process
>>>>>>>>>>> text
>>>>>>>>>>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users,
>>>>>>>>>>> etc.?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And letâ?Ts be realistic. We celebrate every single
>>>>>>>>>>> developer
>>>>>>>>>>> hired
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> improve accessibility. This tells something about the
>>>>>>>>>>> state of
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> matters. We cannot expect that a single person will fix
>>>>>>>>>>> all the
>>>>>>>>>>> kinds
>>>>>>>>>>> of accessibility problems in all the environments. Lukas
>>>>>>>>>>> works at
>>>>>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>>>>>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as
>>>>>>>>>>> urgent ones
>>>>>>>>>>> and I
>>>>>>>>>>> appreciate this opportunity. Anybody else seeing a need
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees
>>>>>>>>>>> fit,
>>>>>>>>>>> as I
>>>>>>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>> Milan
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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