"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
Linux for blind general discussion
blinux-list at redhat.com
Thu Aug 18 03:51:59 UTC 2022
Might I ask what the firetruck this has to do w/Linux accessibility, &
why this branch of the discussion is allowed to persist, except, of
course, for the fact there's no moderator.
Come on, yall--this is normally a productive list--it's now nothing
more than a dumpster fire. Can yall *please* QUIT!
On 8/17/22, Linux for blind general discussion <blinux-list at redhat.com> wrote:
> Glen,
> I have no reason to follow up on anything. The role of a commission, and
> the duty of a rehab system employee are two different things.
> that you state you work for a nfb philosophy rehab office speaks volumes
> for your integrity.
> clearly your staff simply tell this commission what they want to hear, or
> they exist in name only.
> nothing changes your description of your state.
>
>
>
> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>
>> I knew you wouldn't follow up on it, they would just laugh at you.
>> Glenn
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim"
>> <jheim at wisc.edu>;
>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 4:48 PM
>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>
>>
>> Glen,
>> why would I bother?
>> your own words as a seasoned employee speak for themselves.
>> Nebraska is an NFB philosophy state.
>> Were you here in Ontario, that could be a human rights violation, since
>> here the code establishes that claiming everyone sharing a label
>> accommodates the same is a violation of the individual's human rights.
>> No wonder the state of new York supported my professional move, if rehab
>> systems like yours are Nfb puppets.
>> The commission is not the individual rehab staffer, who states he makes
>> decisions using a NFB dictionary.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>
>>> Karen,
>>> Start out at the web site for
>>> Nebraska Commission for the Blind.
>>> There are links to communicate with all the board members, who are
>>> appointed
>>> by the governor.
>>> Glenn
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim"
>>> <jheim at wisc.edu>;
>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 4:24 PM
>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>
>>>
>>> Do what?
>>> where I am it is actually a violation of vendor contract to tell someone
>>> they must use a certain tool.
>>> give them the chance in an office to try several things yes.
>>> Force jaws down their throat like rehab does no.
>>> I said I wished I knew someone in Nebraska media not that I
>>> did...although
>>> perhaps.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>
>>>> Please do.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim"
>>>> <jheim at wisc.edu>;
>>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 3:46 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Glen,
>>>> you are missing the point.
>>>> A commission board, at least if constructed with integrity serves as a
>>>> watchdog for your organization's activities.
>>>> Making sure that you act, objectively, and above influence with
>>>> government
>>>> funding.
>>>> That role differs from a public servant, like yourself.
>>>> In fact that the commission has members from both organizations is
>>>> exactly why you should not be a member.
>>>> if, as you said, the state has an Nfb philosophy, I wonder just how
>>>> above
>>>> influence that commission actually is, lip service attendance does not
>>>> translate to the statement you freely made.
>>>> Honestly, i wish I knew someone with Nebraska public radio. there is a
>>>> investigative, data journalism piece right here, exploring how
>>>> objective
>>>> your office is in fact.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Karen,
>>>>> In Nebraska, the commission board attends both consumer groups' state
>>>>> conventions.
>>>>> So there is total transparency within the consumer groups.
>>>>> The agency sends clients to both conventions for educational purposes.
>>>>> Some can go to either national convention on the state.
>>>>> Glenn
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim"
>>>>> <jheim at wisc.edu>;
>>>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 2:06 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> wrong.
>>>>> Your first duty is to those clients You serve. as illustrated here
>>>>> the
>>>>> Nfb
>>>>> used their ability to reach insiders to influence policy to the
>>>>> detriment
>>>>> of the broader community...same can clearly be said for freedom
>>>>> scientific.
>>>>> That you stated clearly that your rehab system runs on an nfb
>>>>> philosophy
>>>>> illustrates my point perfectly.
>>>>> There are countless legal terms for such conflicts of interest, I
>>>>> dare
>>>>> say if you were serving any other clientele your government watchdog
>>>>> would
>>>>> put a stop to the practice.
>>>>> allows the organization to have undue almost antitrust influence on
>>>>> people's lives.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think so, we are people first, and being a government
>>>>>> employee
>>>>>> should not preclude personal rights.
>>>>>> Besides, I attended the conventions for CEU credits, but I never
>>>>>> joined
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> dues.
>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>> Cc: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>; "John G. Heim"
>>>>>> <jheim at wisc.edu>;
>>>>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:36 AM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> speaking personally?
>>>>>> No government employee should be a member of the NfB. ethical
>>>>>> conflict
>>>>>> of interest personified.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Karen
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yeah, I had been to a state NFBN convention that year and did the
>>>>>>> PAC
>>>>>>> thing.
>>>>>>> Then when the NFB did that, I called up the state treasurer for the
>>>>>>> NFBN
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> cancelled my PAC plan.
>>>>>>> I told them that they don't care if I can read my money, then they
>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>> need any from me.
>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>> To: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>> Cc: "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>; "K0LNY_Glenn"
>>>>>>> <glenn at ervin.email>;
>>>>>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:18 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My personal favorite is the rejection of money that could be
>>>>>>> identified
>>>>>>> by touch. never mind that for honestly thousands of years the
>>>>>>> practice
>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>> been common so those with limited education could still engage in
>>>>>>> commerce.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Butch Bussen wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, I remember that. And what about their oposition to
>>>>>>>> descriptive
>>>>>>>> video,
>>>>>>>> even filed a law sute to get the law thrown out, which it was at
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> time.
>>>>>>>> 73
>>>>>>>> Butch
>>>>>>>> WA0VJR
>>>>>>>> Node 3148
>>>>>>>> Wallace, ks.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, John G. Heim wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to
>>>>>>>>> *NOT*
>>>>>>>>> improve
>>>>>>>>> Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you
>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very sadly
>>>>>>>>> mistaken.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state
>>>>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
>>>>>>>>>> Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its
>>>>>>>>>> problems,
>>>>>>>>>> but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> society
>>>>>>>>>> has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB
>>>>>>>>>> believes
>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>> skills and high expectations.
>>>>>>>>>> And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the
>>>>>>>>>> respect
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> choice.
>>>>>>>>>> Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse,
>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>> organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy. In fact,
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> fact
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than
>>>>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>>> organization in interpersonal staff issues.
>>>>>>>>>> And choice does not mean training center choices.
>>>>>>>>>> Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a
>>>>>>>>>> vocational
>>>>>>>>>> course
>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>> college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> choice
>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>> this regard is different than computer software, where all the
>>>>>>>>>> choices
>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>> reach the same end result.
>>>>>>>>>> In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client
>>>>>>>>>> said
>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would
>>>>>>>>>> get,
>>>>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>>>>> questions asked.
>>>>>>>>>> They would not have to fight to get it.
>>>>>>>>>> I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to
>>>>>>>>>> use
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> software that the counselor wants them to have.
>>>>>>>>>> When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know
>>>>>>>>>> Butch
>>>>>>>>>> well
>>>>>>>>>> enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>> From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>> To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>> Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>;
>>>>>>>>>> <speakup at linux-speakup.org>;
>>>>>>>>>> "Milan
>>>>>>>>>> Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You are right. In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab
>>>>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> took them out for steak diners and so forth. I fought like
>>>>>>>>>> hell
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>>> them to buy window-eyes.
>>>>>>>>>> 73
>>>>>>>>>> Butch
>>>>>>>>>> WA0VJR
>>>>>>>>>> Node 3148
>>>>>>>>>> Wallace, ks.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And where do these employers learn about jaws?
>>>>>>>>>>> In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how this
>>>>>>>>>>> works
>>>>>>>>>>> exactly.
>>>>>>>>>>> after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not
>>>>>>>>>>> personal
>>>>>>>>>>> Jaws
>>>>>>>>>>> users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an
>>>>>>>>>>> expensive
>>>>>>>>>>> program instead of a largely free one.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Karen,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
>>>>>>>>>>>> In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the
>>>>>>>>>>>> counselors
>>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>>> use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
>>>>>>>>>>>> If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws,
>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>> don't know
>>>>>>>>>>>> NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other
>>>>>>>>>>>> clients
>>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> learn one of the two.
>>>>>>>>>>>> So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on
>>>>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> employer
>>>>>>>>>>>> will allow.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more
>>>>>>>>>>>> Jaws
>>>>>>>>>>>> scripters
>>>>>>>>>>>> available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
>>>>>>>>>>>> So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31
>>>>>>>>>>>> years
>>>>>>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>>>>>>> business I can say is rubbish.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and
>>>>>>>>>>>> either
>>>>>>>>>>>> may
>>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>> chosen,
>>>>>>>>>>>> the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the
>>>>>>>>>>>> counselor
>>>>>>>>>>>> feels
>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>> best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
>>>>>>>>>>>> When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for
>>>>>>>>>>>> non-vocational
>>>>>>>>>>>> purchases,
>>>>>>>>>>>> where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the
>>>>>>>>>>>> agency's
>>>>>>>>>>>> best
>>>>>>>>>>>> interest
>>>>>>>>>>>> to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come
>>>>>>>>>>>> back
>>>>>>>>>>>> like VR
>>>>>>>>>>>> expenditures do.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>>>>>> <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets
>>>>>>>>>>>> reminded,
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> rehab systems track record for facilitating employment for
>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>> clients
>>>>>>>>>>>> is quite poor.
>>>>>>>>>>>> With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Making,
>>>>>>>>>>>> speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not
>>>>>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>>>>>> reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative
>>>>>>>>>>>> request.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom
>>>>>>>>>>>> scientific, we
>>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>> creating an employment program where our clients will train
>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>> Linux,
>>>>>>>>>>>> needing a solid screen reader solution for the system. We
>>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>>>> give you
>>>>>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>>>>> exclusive development contract for s millions to create the
>>>>>>>>>>>> tool.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Fs would likely say where do we sign?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Windows
>>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> work,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> client.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor
>>>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>>> advocate
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> specific
>>>>>>>>>>>>> job.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use
>>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>>> we did
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> work related situations.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab
>>>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>>> indeed
>>>>>>>>>>>>> purchase a JFL product.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> blinux
>>>>>>>>>>>>> list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> apposed
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to say
>>>>>>>>>>>>> command line, the comments were quite informative.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Instead
>>>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>>> market
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to the American rehab community.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> how much market research has the rehab community done to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> support the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for choices?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> How many rehab counselors support training in Linux?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor
>>>>>>>>>>>>> quality
>>>>>>>>>>>>> speech
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech
>>>>>>>>>>>>> choices.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone
>>>>>>>>>>>>> brings their needs to the table there.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you need to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> prove
>>>>>>>>>>>>> there is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> money for them there, from their main source of income.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know why
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> FS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not be able to do the same.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> game
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> changer,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seeing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> longer, being
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bought
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by another company.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tools
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Linux.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is because as I understand it, Linux is quite like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> clay. You
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> various
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> changes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> options
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for creativity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> characteristics,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> foundation as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were. that is part of why there have needed to be so few
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> efforts
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inclusion, they created with, and then created in-house
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> adaptive
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tools
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for various populations that were built into the system.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> theory
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> least,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> freedom
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> former
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gw micro or nvda to create something that can in theory
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Linux.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JFL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would bring
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> users into Linux.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> robust
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Orca.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Glenn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> qualifications,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> he
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> defines Linux usage for everyone. That attitude is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> dangerous,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> because he is educating those outside of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> accessibility
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> factual.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> he
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Karen,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> qualifications.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> feedback and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe heâ?Td be happy to be corrected about possible
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> technical
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inaccuracies in the interview. It may be also a good
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> opportunity
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> find out whatâ?Ts possibly missing in making anybody
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> informed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As for â?oabsolute dismissal of what he has not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> experiencedâ?�,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> standard
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> desktop
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> common
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> user
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> process
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> text
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc.?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And letâ?Ts be realistic. We celebrate every single
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hired
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> improve accessibility. This tells something about the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> state of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> matters. We cannot expect that a single person will fix
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kinds
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of accessibility problems in all the environments.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lukas
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> works at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> urgent ones
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> appreciate this opportunity. Anybody else seeing a need
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fit,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Milan
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
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