From mspevack at redhat.com Wed Apr 12 20:37:55 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 16:37:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] first post Message-ID: I've added the fedora project board members, as well as a couple of other Red Hat folks to the list. I will continue to populate it when I have a bit more time. We'll be kicking off the wiki page, with the meeting minutes, and info about all of these lists *real soon now* and then we'll basically be rolling. --Max -- Max Spevack gpg key: mspevack.asc http://people.redhat.com/mspevack/ fingerprint: 5A17 CF21 From kwade at redhat.com Wed Apr 12 23:08:01 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 16:08:01 -0700 Subject: [fab] ulous name In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1144883281.11992.56.camel@erato.phig.org> First pun. I opened Max's message just coming out of the rain and having to head back out into it in a few minutes, and it brought a needed smile to my face. Fab! - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Editor * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Fedora Documentation Project http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject Learn. Network. Experience open source. Red Hat Summit Nashville | May 30 - June 2, 2006 Learn more: http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mspevack at redhat.com Thu Apr 13 21:38:31 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 17:38:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] welcome Message-ID: Welcome all, to the Fedora Advisory Board. There's 25 folks on here now. I've migrated people over from the old advisors list who either made sense to be here or specifically asked to be included. I also pulled some other names and added them as made sense, or who I thought would have some good opinions about Fedora, and want to be involved in the discussions. Take a look at the subscriber list, and think about who else in the Fedora world should be on this list. Coming soon -- the first few discussion threads of real substance. :-) buckle up. --Max -- Max Spevack + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/~mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From nman64 at n-man.com Sat Apr 15 23:11:57 2006 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick W. Barnes) Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 18:11:57 -0500 Subject: [fab] Google's Summer of Code 2006 Message-ID: <200604151812.00088.nman64@n-man.com> Last year, Google sponsored the Summer of Code program, which introduces collegiate students to open source development by connecting them with mentors and providing initiative. The Fedora Project participated and provided mentoring for 12 projects. These had mixed results but provided us with some valuable tools, including our Live CD generator and a tool that we're currently working on adding to our infrastructure to gather hardware usage information from our users. Google has just announced that they will sponsor the event again this year. Will we participate again? I'd really like for us to work on this program again. It is a valuable opportunity to bring new contributors to our project and to support an awesome program. This year, I think we can better involve our contributors in the process, gathering more volunteers to help in the mentoring and to provide suggestions and feedback. Last year, the burden of the program rested almost entirely upon Elliot. One of the people who was accepted for the program last year was actually a co-worker of mine, and I enjoyed the opportunity to help someone get started with open source in such a fashion. His results were not ideal, and I have been disappointed with his failure to follow-up, but a program like this is always going to have a few participants that don't measure up. I'd very much enjoy the opportunity to work with the program again, hopefully with better results. As a bonus, every student that we mentor will bring $500 for our participation. That $500 per student could be a valuable addition to our budget. Google will be accepting organization applications until May 1st. Can we participate? http://code.google.com/soc/ -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com http://www.n-man.com/ Have I been helpful? Rate my assistance! http://rate.affero.net/nman64/ -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jkeating at redhat.com Sun Apr 16 16:00:30 2006 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 12:00:30 -0400 Subject: [fab] Google's Summer of Code 2006 In-Reply-To: <200604151812.00088.nman64@n-man.com> References: <200604151812.00088.nman64@n-man.com> Message-ID: <1145203230.2480.2.camel@ender> On Sat, 2006-04-15 at 18:11 -0500, Patrick W. Barnes wrote: > Google has just announced that they will sponsor the event again this > year. > Will we participate again? The question is how are we doing now with the projects we SoC'd last year? Where are the developers we paid to do work? How maintainable/sustainable is the code and the projects? One of the problems I heard expressed from last year was that once the money dried up the developers vanished, leaving what they had done at whatever state it was at. While this might be acceptable for improvements to existing projects, it wasn't very good for brand new projects. I think we seriously need to look at how to use these folks in the best way possible, and I honestly thing starting a bunch of projects from scratch is a bad use. Have them work on improving some project with code that can be maintainable after they leave. Basically approach it with the idea that as soon as the summer is over, the developer will be vanished, and we have to take what they've done and continue it somehow. -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mspevack at redhat.com Sun Apr 16 17:54:44 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 13:54:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Fedora Project Board Update Message-ID: Hi folks, Just wanted to send a brief update about the Fedora Project Board, which was announced prior to FUDCon Boston, and had its first meting there. A few pages on the wiki that will be of interest to everyone: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board (includes contact info) http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/Meetings And a summary of our first meeting: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/Meetings/2006-04-07 Thanks, Max -- Max Spevack + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/~mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From mspevack at redhat.com Sun Apr 16 17:55:48 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 13:55:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] second board meeting Message-ID: Our next meeting will be on Tuesday 4/18, at 5:00 PM eastern time. I'll be setting up the call details and sending out an agenda sometime on Monday. Gotta tend to some Easter-type obligations now. --Max -- Max Spevack + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/~mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From blizzard at redhat.com Sun Apr 16 19:45:00 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 15:45:00 -0400 Subject: [fab] second board meeting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44429EBC.8010409@redhat.com> Max Spevack wrote: > Our next meeting will be on Tuesday 4/18, at 5:00 PM eastern time. > > I'll be setting up the call details and sending out an agenda sometime > on Monday. Gotta tend to some Easter-type obligations now. > > --Max > Not sure I can make this one; still in Brazil. -Chris From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Sun Apr 16 19:50:58 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 15:50:58 -0400 Subject: [fab] Google's Summer of Code 2006 In-Reply-To: <1145203230.2480.2.camel@ender> References: <200604151812.00088.nman64@n-man.com> <1145203230.2480.2.camel@ender> Message-ID: <1145217058.18481.20.camel@cutter> On Sun, 2006-04-16 at 12:00 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Sat, 2006-04-15 at 18:11 -0500, Patrick W. Barnes wrote: > > Google has just announced that they will sponsor the event again this > > year. > > Will we participate again? > > The question is how are we doing now with the projects we SoC'd last > year? Where are the developers we paid to do work? How > maintainable/sustainable is the code and the projects? One of the > problems I heard expressed from last year was that once the money dried > up the developers vanished, leaving what they had done at whatever state > it was at. While this might be acceptable for improvements to existing > projects, it wasn't very good for brand new projects. > > I think we seriously need to look at how to use these folks in the best > way possible, and I honestly thing starting a bunch of projects from > scratch is a bad use. Have them work on improving some project with > code that can be maintainable after they leave. Basically approach it > with the idea that as soon as the summer is over, the developer will be > vanished, and we have to take what they've done and continue it somehow. > I agree. I can think of a number of enhancements to moinmoin or applications in turbo gears (what Elliot has been doing a fair bit of coding in) that would be useful for fedora and wouldn't take a herculean effort to maintain. Targeting web apps might be a better way. Hey, I know - what if we had someone write us a mirror database system since it seems like bouncer is just about never going to be in the state we need it in. :) or maybe just see if we can SoC someone into fixing bouncer as we need it. -sv From nman64 at n-man.com Sun Apr 16 21:47:16 2006 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick W. Barnes) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 16:47:16 -0500 Subject: [fab] Google's Summer of Code 2006 In-Reply-To: <1145217058.18481.20.camel@cutter> References: <200604151812.00088.nman64@n-man.com> <1145203230.2480.2.camel@ender> <1145217058.18481.20.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <200604161647.18346.nman64@n-man.com> On Sunday 16 April 2006 14:50, seth vidal wrote: > On Sun, 2006-04-16 at 12:00 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > > On Sat, 2006-04-15 at 18:11 -0500, Patrick W. Barnes wrote: > > > Google has just announced that they will sponsor the event again this > > > year. > > > Will we participate again? > > > > The question is how are we doing now with the projects we SoC'd last > > year? Where are the developers we paid to do work? How > > maintainable/sustainable is the code and the projects? One of the > > problems I heard expressed from last year was that once the money dried > > up the developers vanished, leaving what they had done at whatever state > > it was at. While this might be acceptable for improvements to existing > > projects, it wasn't very good for brand new projects. > > > > I think we seriously need to look at how to use these folks in the best > > way possible, and I honestly thing starting a bunch of projects from > > scratch is a bad use. Have them work on improving some project with > > code that can be maintainable after they leave. Basically approach it > > with the idea that as soon as the summer is over, the developer will be > > vanished, and we have to take what they've done and continue it somehow. > > I agree. > > I can think of a number of enhancements to moinmoin or applications in > turbo gears (what Elliot has been doing a fair bit of coding in) that > would be useful for fedora and wouldn't take a herculean effort to > maintain. > > Targeting web apps might be a better way. > > Hey, I know - what if we had someone write us a mirror database system > since it seems like bouncer is just about never going to be in the state > we need it in. :) > > or maybe just see if we can SoC someone into fixing bouncer as we need > it. > > -sv +1 Some of the projects from last year have been valuable, but the developers have largely disappeared. Some have done a better job of keeping in touch than others. Part of the problem is that these people are college students, and so give up working with us when classes are in. Also, maintaining a large from-scratch project is a daunting task for someone who's just getting started. Improvement of existing projects would be a great use of their talent, and they'd be more likely to stick around when they aren't completely overwhelmed by a new project. Of course, the exact projects they apply for are their decision, but we can encourage them to apply for the enhancement projects by focusing on them in the FedoraBounties page. Another thing that might help is getting more of the community involved in mentoring the students and putting the students in better touch with our community. Last year, they were largely disconnected from our community, and without the sense of community, very few developers will stick with any project. Some of the students are bound to disappear no matter what we do, but there is a potential opportunity to gain some valuable contributors. If we at least get the best contributions possible out of them over the summer, we haven't got much to lose. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com http://www.n-man.com/ Have I been helpful? Rate my assistance! http://rate.affero.net/nman64/ -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kwade at redhat.com Mon Apr 17 02:03:29 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 19:03:29 -0700 Subject: [fab] on contributing Message-ID: <1145239409.2465.93.camel@erato.phig.org> For people looking to make a financial contribution to the Fedora Project, we can point them at this: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Contribute It's trying to distill the message from places such as HelpWanted, while answering the feeling that we are "missing opportunities" because people don't have a way to contribute cash. To that I say, "Nope." - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Editor * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Fedora Documentation Project http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject Learn. Network. Experience open source. Red Hat Summit Nashville | May 30 - June 2, 2006 Learn more: http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From laroche at redhat.com Mon Apr 17 09:45:07 2006 From: laroche at redhat.com (Florian La Roche) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 11:45:07 +0200 Subject: [fab] Google's Summer of Code 2006 In-Reply-To: <200604161647.18346.nman64@n-man.com> References: <200604151812.00088.nman64@n-man.com> <1145203230.2480.2.camel@ender> <1145217058.18481.20.camel@cutter> <200604161647.18346.nman64@n-man.com> Message-ID: <20060417094507.GA10100@dudweiler.stuttgart.redhat.com> > Some of the projects from last year have been valuable, but the developers > have largely disappeared. Some have done a better job of keeping in touch For many things the development discussions in the upstream Open Source projects are very healthy and working ok, but I think we also have many rough edges where even upstream doesn't care too much or the projects do not integrate enough into our environment. We should keep roadmap discussions and lists of interesting ideas on the fedoraproject.org wiki and keep being a collection point for those discussions. regards, Florian La Roche From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Apr 17 09:09:00 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 14:39:00 +0530 Subject: [fab] Google's Summer of Code 2006 In-Reply-To: <200604151812.00088.nman64@n-man.com> References: <200604151812.00088.nman64@n-man.com> Message-ID: <1145264940.349.45.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> On Sat, 2006-04-15 at 18:11 -0500, Patrick W. Barnes wrote: > Last year, Google sponsored the Summer of Code program, which introduces > collegiate students to open source development by connecting them with > mentors and providing initiative. The Fedora Project participated and > provided mentoring for 12 projects. These had mixed results but provided us > with some valuable tools, including our Live CD generator and a tool that > we're currently working on adding to our infrastructure to gather hardware > usage information from our users. > > Google has just announced that they will sponsor the event again this year. > Will we participate again? > > I'd really like for us to work on this program again. It is a valuable > opportunity to bring new contributors to our project and to support an > awesome program. This year, I think we can better involve our contributors > in the process, gathering more volunteers to help in the mentoring and to > provide suggestions and feedback. Last year, the burden of the program > rested almost entirely upon Elliot. > > One of the people who was accepted for the program last year was actually a > co-worker of mine, and I enjoyed the opportunity to help someone get started > with open source in such a fashion. His results were not ideal, and I have > been disappointed with his failure to follow-up, but a program like this is > always going to have a few participants that don't measure up. I'd very much > enjoy the opportunity to work with the program again, hopefully with better > results. As a bonus, every student that we mentor will bring $500 for our > participation. That $500 per student could be a valuable addition to our > budget. > > Google will be accepting organization applications until May 1st. Can we > participate? Last time many of the projects that we choose to pursue within Google SoC were those that required ongoing development and maintenance rather than simple independent tasks and pretty much all of them have failed miserably. If we are participating this year we should identify very specific tasks that people can do and walk away from and still be beneficial. Rahul From gdk at redhat.com Mon Apr 17 14:48:52 2006 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 10:48:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Google's Summer of Code 2006 In-Reply-To: <1145264940.349.45.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> References: <200604151812.00088.nman64@n-man.com> <1145264940.349.45.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: > On Sat, 2006-04-15 at 18:11 -0500, Patrick W. Barnes wrote: > > Last year, Google sponsored the Summer of Code program, which introduces > > collegiate students to open source development by connecting them with > > mentors and providing initiative. The Fedora Project participated and > > provided mentoring for 12 projects. These had mixed results but provided us > > with some valuable tools, including our Live CD generator and a tool that > > we're currently working on adding to our infrastructure to gather hardware > > usage information from our users. > > > > Google has just announced that they will sponsor the event again this year. > > Will we participate again? I talked with Chris DiBona last week, and gave him the tentative nod on Fedora's behalf. We've obviously got some planning work to do. The nice thing: last year we agreed to do SoC on, like, June 2nd. So at least we've got some time to plan this year. > > I'd really like for us to work on this program again. It is a valuable > > opportunity to bring new contributors to our project and to support an > > awesome program. This year, I think we can better involve our contributors > > in the process, gathering more volunteers to help in the mentoring and to > > provide suggestions and feedback. Last year, the burden of the program > > rested almost entirely upon Elliot. I see the Mentoring project perhaps taking off as a direct result. If we do it right. > > One of the people who was accepted for the program last year was > > actually a co-worker of mine, and I enjoyed the opportunity to help > > someone get started with open source in such a fashion. His results > > were not ideal, and I have been disappointed with his failure to > > follow-up, but a program like this is always going to have a few > > participants that don't measure up. I'd very much enjoy the > > opportunity to work with the program again, hopefully with better > > results. As a bonus, every student that we mentor will bring $500 for > > our participation. That $500 per student could be a valuable addition > > to our budget. > > Last time many of the projects that we choose to pursue within Google > SoC were those that required ongoing development and maintenance rather > than simple independent tasks and pretty much all of them have failed > miserably. If we are participating this year we should identify very > specific tasks that people can do and walk away from and still be > beneficial. Yep. In general, I think we need to do a better job of specifying small projects that could add big value for us. And actually understanding the difference between "small projects" and "not at all small projects" will help. :) Some ideas off the top of my head: * It would be nice to move the ball forward on Pootypedia, a project from last year's SoC that never took off like it should have. Maybe it's actually done and just needs to be deployed and used -- but I'm guessing it's not that simple. (Check it out at http://pootypedia.sourceforge.net/) * Depending on how the RT deploy goes, it might be useful to have a queueing mechanism for the Freemedia project -- a simple way for people to be able to push media requests onto a stack, and then have various Freemedia volunteers cleaim the ones they're fulfilling. I'm sure there's tons of other ideas. It's probably time to start collecting them somewhere central. --g ------------------------------------------------------------- Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Project || fedoraproject.org Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors ------------------------------------------------------------- From katzj at redhat.com Mon Apr 17 14:51:43 2006 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 10:51:43 -0400 Subject: [fab] Google's Summer of Code 2006 In-Reply-To: <200604151812.00088.nman64@n-man.com> References: <200604151812.00088.nman64@n-man.com> Message-ID: <1145285503.26993.9.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> On Sat, 2006-04-15 at 18:11 -0500, Patrick W. Barnes wrote: > Last year, Google sponsored the Summer of Code program, which introduces > collegiate students to open source development by connecting them with > mentors and providing initiative. The Fedora Project participated and > provided mentoring for 12 projects. These had mixed results but provided us > with some valuable tools, including our Live CD generator and a tool that > we're currently working on adding to our infrastructure to gather hardware > usage information from our users. As mentioned by others, the biggest lesson from last year's SoC (both for us and also mirrored by a number of other projects) is that the best projects are things which can easily be integrated into an existing body of code. And being clear that part of the SoC objective is getting the code integrated is pretty important, too. Jeremy From sopwith at redhat.com Mon Apr 17 16:01:20 2006 From: sopwith at redhat.com (Elliot Lee) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 12:01:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Google's Summer of Code 2006 In-Reply-To: <1145264940.349.45.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> References: <200604151812.00088.nman64@n-man.com> <1145264940.349.45.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Apr 2006, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Last time many of the projects that we choose to pursue within Google > SoC were those that required ongoing development and maintenance rather > than simple independent tasks and pretty much all of them have failed > miserably. If we are participating this year we should identify very > specific tasks that people can do and walk away from and still be > beneficial. I don't believe there's any such thing that meets these requirements and still meets the requirements of the SoC... Please prove me wrong ;-) -- Elliot From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Apr 17 16:22:46 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 21:52:46 +0530 Subject: [fab] Google's Summer of Code 2006 In-Reply-To: References: <200604151812.00088.nman64@n-man.com> <1145264940.349.45.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1145290966.349.57.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> On Mon, 2006-04-17 at 12:01 -0400, Elliot Lee wrote: > On Mon, 17 Apr 2006, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > Last time many of the projects that we choose to pursue within Google > > SoC were those that required ongoing development and maintenance rather > > than simple independent tasks and pretty much all of them have failed > > miserably. If we are participating this year we should identify very > > specific tasks that people can do and walk away from and still be > > beneficial. > > I don't believe there's any such thing that meets these requirements and > still meets the requirements of the SoC... Please prove me wrong ;-) > -- Elliot I havent seen the SoC requirements in their site that contradict what I suggested would be the ideal procedure to tackle this. If it does contradict, we are better off doing our own bounties program based on what we think would work well rather than shoehorn the process into something that has proven itself a failure. Rahul From sopwith at redhat.com Mon Apr 17 16:30:28 2006 From: sopwith at redhat.com (Elliot Lee) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 12:30:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Google's Summer of Code 2006 In-Reply-To: <1145290966.349.57.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> References: <200604151812.00088.nman64@n-man.com> <1145264940.349.45.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1145290966.349.57.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Apr 2006, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > I havent seen the SoC requirements in their site that contradict what I > suggested would be the ideal procedure to tackle this. If it does > contradict, we are better off doing our own bounties program based on > what we think would work well rather than shoehorn the process into > something that has proven itself a failure. It's not a failure for the students. It's not a failure as far as us getting money out of it ;-) Best, -- Elliot From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Apr 17 16:37:39 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 22:07:39 +0530 Subject: [fab] Google's Summer of Code 2006 In-Reply-To: References: <200604151812.00088.nman64@n-man.com> <1145264940.349.45.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1145290966.349.57.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1145291859.349.67.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> On Mon, 2006-04-17 at 12:30 -0400, Elliot Lee wrote: > On Mon, 17 Apr 2006, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > I havent seen the SoC requirements in their site that contradict what I > > suggested would be the ideal procedure to tackle this. If it does > > contradict, we are better off doing our own bounties program based on > > what we think would work well rather than shoehorn the process into > > something that has proven itself a failure. > > It's not a failure for the students. > > It's not a failure as far as us getting money out of it ;-) > > Best, > -- Elliot I assumed that we are participating as mentoring organizations not merely to give intellectual exercises to students but also get useful tasks done. >From the list of bounties done last year, I cant see many projects that have found their way into Fedora itself. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SummerOfCode/2005 Rahul From nman64 at n-man.com Mon Apr 17 17:59:12 2006 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick W. Barnes) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 12:59:12 -0500 Subject: [fab] Google's Summer of Code 2006 In-Reply-To: <1145291859.349.67.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> References: <200604151812.00088.nman64@n-man.com> <1145291859.349.67.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: <200604171259.15568.nman64@n-man.com> On Monday 17 April 2006 11:37, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > On Mon, 2006-04-17 at 12:30 -0400, Elliot Lee wrote: > > On Mon, 17 Apr 2006, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > I havent seen the SoC requirements in their site that contradict what I > > > suggested would be the ideal procedure to tackle this. If it does > > > contradict, we are better off doing our own bounties program based on > > > what we think would work well rather than shoehorn the process into > > > something that has proven itself a failure. > > > > It's not a failure for the students. > > > > It's not a failure as far as us getting money out of it ;-) > > > > I assumed that we are participating as mentoring organizations not > merely to give intellectual exercises to students but also get useful > tasks done. > While the results could have been better last year, we did get at least some value from the program. In addition to the projects that were started and abandoned, we also saw new projects emerge that were taken up by the community even after the developer left, such as Kadischi. Darko told us that he would be kept away from the project for his education, and Chitlesh and other community members have stepped in to push the project forward. Without Darko, we don't know where our Live CD efforts would be. Mentoring people as they get started in open source is mutually beneficial, and even one good project or contributor coming out of the program makes our participation worthwhile. That said, under the terms of the SoC, students are able to work on existing projects to further develop or enhance them, and working on smaller projects that they are able to fully complete is also allowed. We can certainly provide projects that leave us with something that we can work with even if the developer walks away. The idea really is to give the students tasks to complete on their own, which gives them more development experience, but we can certainly provide them with those tasks even in the scope of larger projects or in the form of small and simple, but much-needed, projects. So, do we give Chris our official go-ahead? :-) -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com http://www.n-man.com/ Have I been helpful? Rate my assistance! http://rate.affero.net/nman64/ -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wtogami at redhat.com Mon Apr 17 18:47:19 2006 From: wtogami at redhat.com (Warren Togami) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 14:47:19 -0400 Subject: [fab] Split Fedora-Announce-List Message-ID: <4443E2B7.40100@redhat.com> Fedora-announce-list is broken and difficult to read. We currently post the important announcements on that list, but those are drown out by the very numerous package update announcements that happen on the same list. In order to fix this situation, I propose that we split fedora-announce-list in this way. fedora-announce-list Announcements of the general Fedora Project go here. Relatively low traffic and no extraneous noise. fedora-updates-3 fedora-updates-4 fedora-updates-5 Distribution specific mailing lists for all package update announcements. If you use FC4, you subscribe to that list and receive notifications from Core, Extras and eventually Legacy specific to that distribution. When Core + Extras + Legacy eventually merge into a single project, announcements continue going to the distro specific lists. Thoughts? Warren Togami wtogami at redhat.com From notting at redhat.com Mon Apr 17 18:50:13 2006 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 14:50:13 -0400 Subject: [fab] Split Fedora-Announce-List In-Reply-To: <4443E2B7.40100@redhat.com> References: <4443E2B7.40100@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20060417185013.GB32157@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Warren Togami (wtogami at redhat.com) said: > Fedora-announce-list is broken and difficult to read. We currently post > the important announcements on that list, but those are drown out by the > very numerous package update announcements that happen on the same list. > > In order to fix this situation, I propose that we split > fedora-announce-list in this way. > > fedora-announce-list > Announcements of the general Fedora Project go here. Relatively low > traffic and no extraneous noise. > > fedora-updates-3 > fedora-updates-4 > fedora-updates-5 > Distribution specific mailing lists for all package update > announcements. If you use FC4, you subscribe to that list and receive > notifications from Core, Extras and eventually Legacy specific to that > distribution. When Core + Extras + Legacy eventually merge into a > single project, announcements continue going to the distro specific lists. > > Thoughts? We already use mailman categories for each release; users already have the option to only see what they want. Bill From sopwith at redhat.com Mon Apr 17 18:53:50 2006 From: sopwith at redhat.com (Elliot Lee) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 14:53:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Split Fedora-Announce-List In-Reply-To: <4443E2B7.40100@redhat.com> References: <4443E2B7.40100@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Apr 2006, Warren Togami wrote: > Fedora-announce-list is broken and difficult to read. We currently post > the important announcements on that list, but those are drown out by the > very numerous package update announcements that happen on the same list. > > In order to fix this situation, I propose that we split > fedora-announce-list in this way. > > fedora-announce-list > Announcements of the general Fedora Project go here. Relatively low > traffic and no extraneous noise. > > fedora-updates-3 > fedora-updates-4 > fedora-updates-5 > Distribution specific mailing lists for all package update > announcements. If you use FC4, you subscribe to that list and receive > notifications from Core, Extras and eventually Legacy specific to that > distribution. When Core + Extras + Legacy eventually merge into a > single project, announcements continue going to the distro specific lists. > > Thoughts? The way that worked well for RHL was separating things into a redhat-announce-list that received just regular announcements, and redhat-watch-list that received security notices. I think per-distro update lists is going overboard. A fedora-updates-list or fedora-watch-list should be fine. Best, -- Elliot From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Apr 17 18:53:53 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 00:23:53 +0530 Subject: [fab] Split Fedora-Announce-List In-Reply-To: <20060417185013.GB32157@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <4443E2B7.40100@redhat.com> <20060417185013.GB32157@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1145300033.349.83.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> On Mon, 2006-04-17 at 14:50 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Warren Togami (wtogami at redhat.com) said: > > Fedora-announce-list is broken and difficult to read. We currently post > > the important announcements on that list, but those are drown out by the > > very numerous package update announcements that happen on the same list. > > > > In order to fix this situation, I propose that we split > > fedora-announce-list in this way. > > > > fedora-announce-list > > Announcements of the general Fedora Project go here. Relatively low > > traffic and no extraneous noise. > > > > fedora-updates-3 > > fedora-updates-4 > > fedora-updates-5 > > Distribution specific mailing lists for all package update > > announcements. If you use FC4, you subscribe to that list and receive > > notifications from Core, Extras and eventually Legacy specific to that > > distribution. When Core + Extras + Legacy eventually merge into a > > single project, announcements continue going to the distro specific lists. > > > > Thoughts? > > We already use mailman categories for each release; users already have > the option to only see what they want. I dont think many people have a clue on what mailman categories are and how to use them. Separate mailing lists sound cleaner to me. This has already come up before in the context of the ambassadors project in which many people felt that keeping track of announcements ad-mist all the other package updates has been hard. Rahul From gdk at redhat.com Mon Apr 17 18:55:27 2006 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 14:55:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Split Fedora-Announce-List In-Reply-To: References: <4443E2B7.40100@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Apr 2006, Elliot Lee wrote: > The way that worked well for RHL was separating things into a > redhat-announce-list that received just regular announcements, and > redhat-watch-list that received security notices. +1 to fedora-watch-list for updates to all Fedora versions. --g ------------------------------------------------------------- Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Project || fedoraproject.org Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors ------------------------------------------------------------- From notting at redhat.com Mon Apr 17 18:58:39 2006 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 14:58:39 -0400 Subject: [fab] Split Fedora-Announce-List In-Reply-To: <1145300033.349.83.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> References: <4443E2B7.40100@redhat.com> <20060417185013.GB32157@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1145300033.349.83.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20060417185839.GC32157@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Rahul Sundaram (sundaram at fedoraproject.org) said: > > We already use mailman categories for each release; users already have > > the option to only see what they want. > > I dont think many people have a clue on what mailman categories are and > how to use them. Opportunities for education. I think the overhead of having to continually create and maintain different mailing lists (and point all the update announcements at different places per release, etc.) isn't worth it. We could go down the RHN route.... most general package updates aren't announced, and data is pulled from the update tool. How's that advisory-in-pup work going? Bill From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Apr 17 19:05:19 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 00:35:19 +0530 Subject: [fab] Split Fedora-Announce-List In-Reply-To: <20060417185839.GC32157@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <4443E2B7.40100@redhat.com> <20060417185013.GB32157@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1145300033.349.83.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <20060417185839.GC32157@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1145300719.349.87.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> On Mon, 2006-04-17 at 14:58 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Rahul Sundaram (sundaram at fedoraproject.org) said: > > > We already use mailman categories for each release; users already have > > > the option to only see what they want. > > > > I dont think many people have a clue on what mailman categories are and > > how to use them. > > Opportunities for education. I think the overhead of having to > continually create and maintain different mailing lists (and > point all the update announcements at different places per release, > etc.) isn't worth it. Educating the unwashed masses is a daunting prospect. fedora-watch-list sounds a reasonable compromise. > > We could go down the RHN route.... most general package updates > aren't announced, and data is pulled from the update tool. How's > that advisory-in-pup work going? Pretty well from watching yum devel list discussions. Rahul From wtogami at redhat.com Mon Apr 17 19:06:20 2006 From: wtogami at redhat.com (Warren Togami) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 15:06:20 -0400 Subject: [fab] Split Fedora-Announce-List In-Reply-To: References: <4443E2B7.40100@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4443E72C.2000909@redhat.com> Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > On Mon, 17 Apr 2006, Elliot Lee wrote: > >> The way that worked well for RHL was separating things into a >> redhat-announce-list that received just regular announcements, and >> redhat-watch-list that received security notices. > > +1 to fedora-watch-list for updates to all Fedora versions. I do agree with Rahul's concern that the categories thing is not used by users, but it is a great improvement to split fedora-announce-list and update announcements. So let's go ahead with this simple change for now since there seems to be most agreement behind it. Who drives these changes? Warren Togami wtogami at redhat.com From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Apr 17 19:12:12 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 00:42:12 +0530 Subject: [fab] Split Fedora-Announce-List In-Reply-To: <4443E72C.2000909@redhat.com> References: <4443E2B7.40100@redhat.com> <4443E72C.2000909@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1145301133.349.88.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> On Mon, 2006-04-17 at 15:06 -0400, Warren Togami wrote: > Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > On Mon, 17 Apr 2006, Elliot Lee wrote: > > > >> The way that worked well for RHL was separating things into a > >> redhat-announce-list that received just regular announcements, and > >> redhat-watch-list that received security notices. > > > > +1 to fedora-watch-list for updates to all Fedora versions. > > I do agree with Rahul's concern that the categories thing is not used by > users, but it is a great improvement to split fedora-announce-list and > update announcements. So let's go ahead with this simple change for now > since there seems to be most agreement behind it. > > Who drives these changes? Elliot Lee? Rahul From stickster at gmail.com Mon Apr 17 19:42:52 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 15:42:52 -0400 Subject: [fab] Split Fedora-Announce-List In-Reply-To: References: <4443E2B7.40100@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1145302972.6247.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2006-04-17 at 14:53 -0400, Elliot Lee wrote: > On Mon, 17 Apr 2006, Warren Togami wrote: > > > Fedora-announce-list is broken and difficult to read. We currently post > > the important announcements on that list, but those are drown out by the > > very numerous package update announcements that happen on the same list. > > > > In order to fix this situation, I propose that we split > > fedora-announce-list in this way. > > > > fedora-announce-list > > Announcements of the general Fedora Project go here. Relatively low > > traffic and no extraneous noise. > > > > fedora-updates-3 > > fedora-updates-4 > > fedora-updates-5 > > Distribution specific mailing lists for all package update > > announcements. If you use FC4, you subscribe to that list and receive > > notifications from Core, Extras and eventually Legacy specific to that > > distribution. When Core + Extras + Legacy eventually merge into a > > single project, announcements continue going to the distro specific lists. > > > > Thoughts? > > The way that worked well for RHL was separating things into a > redhat-announce-list that received just regular announcements, and > redhat-watch-list that received security notices. > > I think per-distro update lists is going overboard. A fedora-updates-list > or fedora-watch-list should be fine. This sounds like a good compromise to me. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From tchung at fedoraproject.org Mon Apr 17 19:45:43 2006 From: tchung at fedoraproject.org (Thomas Chung) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 12:45:43 -0700 Subject: [fab] Split Fedora-Announce-List In-Reply-To: <4443E72C.2000909@redhat.com> References: <4443E2B7.40100@redhat.com> <4443E72C.2000909@redhat.com> Message-ID: <369bce3b0604171245t32bfe209r3cdb948e7b183d02@mail.gmail.com> On 4/17/06, Warren Togami wrote: > Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > On Mon, 17 Apr 2006, Elliot Lee wrote: > > > >> The way that worked well for RHL was separating things into a > >> redhat-announce-list that received just regular announcements, and > >> redhat-watch-list that received security notices. > > > > +1 to fedora-watch-list for updates to all Fedora versions. > > I do agree with Rahul's concern that the categories thing is not used by > users, but it is a great improvement to split fedora-announce-list and > update announcements. So let's go ahead with this simple change for now > since there seems to be most agreement behind it. I also agree with the idea. Although I prefer fedora-updates-list than fedora-watch-list. BTW, where fedoranews announcement will fit in? fedora-news-list? Just a thought. :) -- Thomas Chung http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung From katzj at redhat.com Mon Apr 17 19:49:43 2006 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 15:49:43 -0400 Subject: [fab] Split Fedora-Announce-List In-Reply-To: <369bce3b0604171245t32bfe209r3cdb948e7b183d02@mail.gmail.com> References: <4443E2B7.40100@redhat.com> <4443E72C.2000909@redhat.com> <369bce3b0604171245t32bfe209r3cdb948e7b183d02@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1145303383.26993.104.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> On Mon, 2006-04-17 at 12:45 -0700, Thomas Chung wrote: > BTW, where fedoranews announcement will fit in? > fedora-news-list? Just a thought. :) Personally, I think they're handy on fedora-announce-list just to help keep peopel apprised of what's going on Jeremy From gdk at redhat.com Mon Apr 17 19:51:08 2006 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 15:51:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Split Fedora-Announce-List In-Reply-To: <1145303383.26993.104.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> References: <4443E2B7.40100@redhat.com> <4443E72C.2000909@redhat.com> <369bce3b0604171245t32bfe209r3cdb948e7b183d02@mail.gmail.com> <1145303383.26993.104.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Apr 2006, Jeremy Katz wrote: > On Mon, 2006-04-17 at 12:45 -0700, Thomas Chung wrote: > > BTW, where fedoranews announcement will fit in? > > fedora-news-list? Just a thought. :) > > Personally, I think they're handy on fedora-announce-list just to help > keep peopel apprised of what's going on > > Jeremy +1 to that. fedoranews has become the de facto news source for all things Fedora; it should be represented as such. --g ------------------------------------------------------------- Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Project || fedoraproject.org Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors ------------------------------------------------------------- From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Apr 17 19:59:08 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 01:29:08 +0530 Subject: [fab] Split Fedora-Announce-List In-Reply-To: References: <4443E2B7.40100@redhat.com> <4443E72C.2000909@redhat.com> <369bce3b0604171245t32bfe209r3cdb948e7b183d02@mail.gmail.com> <1145303383.26993.104.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1145303949.349.92.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> On Mon, 2006-04-17 at 15:51 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > On Mon, 17 Apr 2006, Jeremy Katz wrote: > > > On Mon, 2006-04-17 at 12:45 -0700, Thomas Chung wrote: > > > BTW, where fedoranews announcement will fit in? > > > fedora-news-list? Just a thought. :) > > > > Personally, I think they're handy on fedora-announce-list just to help > > keep peopel apprised of what's going on > > > > Jeremy > > +1 to that. fedoranews has become the de facto news source for all things > Fedora; it should be represented as such. Ok. So while we are it, what does it take to endorse fedoranews.org as the formal news source similar to what we did for fedoraforum.org? Rahul From mspevack at redhat.com Mon Apr 17 20:02:34 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 16:02:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Split Fedora-Announce-List In-Reply-To: <1145303949.349.92.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> References: <4443E2B7.40100@redhat.com> <4443E72C.2000909@redhat.com> <369bce3b0604171245t32bfe209r3cdb948e7b183d02@mail.gmail.com> <1145303383.26993.104.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> <1145303949.349.92.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Apr 2006, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > On Mon, 2006-04-17 at 15:51 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: >> On Mon, 17 Apr 2006, Jeremy Katz wrote: >> >>> On Mon, 2006-04-17 at 12:45 -0700, Thomas Chung wrote: >>>> BTW, where fedoranews announcement will fit in? >>>> fedora-news-list? Just a thought. :) >>> >>> Personally, I think they're handy on fedora-announce-list just to help >>> keep peopel apprised of what's going on >>> >>> Jeremy >> >> +1 to that. fedoranews has become the de facto news source for all things >> Fedora; it should be represented as such. > > Ok. So while we are it, what does it take to endorse fedoranews.org as > the formal news source similar to what we did for fedoraforum.org? Nothing special, since it already *is the de facto news source*. We just start referring to it as such, and treating it as such. And we get the logo usage stuff worked out so that Thomas can slap the official Fedora logo up there somewhere. (that's on me) --Max -- Max Spevack + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/~mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From tchung at fedoraproject.org Mon Apr 17 20:03:39 2006 From: tchung at fedoraproject.org (Thomas Chung) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 13:03:39 -0700 Subject: [fab] Split Fedora-Announce-List In-Reply-To: <1145303949.349.92.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> References: <4443E2B7.40100@redhat.com> <4443E72C.2000909@redhat.com> <369bce3b0604171245t32bfe209r3cdb948e7b183d02@mail.gmail.com> <1145303383.26993.104.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> <1145303949.349.92.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: <369bce3b0604171303lc4d3bfcp5788e7a19d3d46b9@mail.gmail.com> On 4/17/06, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > On Mon, 2006-04-17 at 15:51 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > +1 to that. fedoranews has become the de facto news source for all things > > Fedora; it should be represented as such. > > Ok. So while we are it, what does it take to endorse fedoranews.org as > the formal news source similar to what we did for fedoraforum.org? > > Rahul A box of Hawaiian Macadamia Nut Chocolate from Warren? :) -- Thomas Chung http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung From jkeating at redhat.com Mon Apr 17 20:08:54 2006 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 16:08:54 -0400 Subject: [fab] Split Fedora-Announce-List In-Reply-To: <369bce3b0604171303lc4d3bfcp5788e7a19d3d46b9@mail.gmail.com> References: <4443E2B7.40100@redhat.com> <4443E72C.2000909@redhat.com> <369bce3b0604171245t32bfe209r3cdb948e7b183d02@mail.gmail.com> <1145303383.26993.104.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> <1145303949.349.92.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <369bce3b0604171303lc4d3bfcp5788e7a19d3d46b9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1145304534.3071.28.camel@ender> On Mon, 2006-04-17 at 13:03 -0700, Thomas Chung wrote: > A box of Hawaiian Macadamia Nut Chocolate from Warren? :) No no, that should be a package of Taro Pancake Mix. -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From wtogami at redhat.com Mon Apr 17 20:12:04 2006 From: wtogami at redhat.com (Warren Togami) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 16:12:04 -0400 Subject: [fab] Split Fedora-Announce-List In-Reply-To: <369bce3b0604171245t32bfe209r3cdb948e7b183d02@mail.gmail.com> References: <4443E2B7.40100@redhat.com> <4443E72C.2000909@redhat.com> <369bce3b0604171245t32bfe209r3cdb948e7b183d02@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4443F694.3020908@redhat.com> Thomas Chung wrote: > > I also agree with the idea. > Although I prefer fedora-updates-list than fedora-watch-list. > BTW, where fedoranews announcement will fit in? > fedora-news-list? Just a thought. :) fedora-news-list announcements are infrequent enough that they belong on fedora-announce-list. The only change that I am suggesting is putting update announcements somewhere else. Warren Togami wtogami at redhat.com From sopwith at redhat.com Mon Apr 17 20:19:00 2006 From: sopwith at redhat.com (Elliot Lee) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 16:19:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Split Fedora-Announce-List In-Reply-To: <1145301133.349.88.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> References: <4443E2B7.40100@redhat.com> <4443E72C.2000909@redhat.com> <1145301133.349.88.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Apr 2006, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > On Mon, 2006-04-17 at 15:06 -0400, Warren Togami wrote: > > Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > > On Mon, 17 Apr 2006, Elliot Lee wrote: > > > > > >> The way that worked well for RHL was separating things into a > > >> redhat-announce-list that received just regular announcements, and > > >> redhat-watch-list that received security notices. > > > > > > +1 to fedora-watch-list for updates to all Fedora versions. > > > > I do agree with Rahul's concern that the categories thing is not used by > > users, but it is a great improvement to split fedora-announce-list and > > update announcements. So let's go ahead with this simple change for now > > since there seems to be most agreement behind it. > > > > Who drives these changes? > > Elliot Lee? Someone inside RH (Warren?) can fill in the form to request a new mailing list, and once it is created, we'll need someone to change the fedora updates system & docs to have the new address, and announce the change to the world, with a special message to the RH developers and the fedora-announce-list moderators. Best, -- Elliot From wtogami at redhat.com Mon Apr 17 21:01:05 2006 From: wtogami at redhat.com (Warren Togami) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 17:01:05 -0400 Subject: [fab] Split Fedora-Announce-List In-Reply-To: References: <4443E2B7.40100@redhat.com> <4443E72C.2000909@redhat.com> <1145301133.349.88.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: <44440211.3010909@redhat.com> Elliot Lee wrote: > Someone inside RH (Warren?) can fill in the form to request a new mailing > list, and once it is created, we'll need someone to change the fedora > updates system & docs to have the new address, and announce the change to > the world, with a special message to the RH developers and the > fedora-announce-list moderators. > OK, I'll drive this. But do we have agreement on the list name? I personally think "fedora-updates-announce" would be good, because it states the exact purpose of this list. Warren Togami wtogami at redhat.com From lmacken at redhat.com Mon Apr 17 21:06:19 2006 From: lmacken at redhat.com (Luke Macken) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 17:06:19 -0400 Subject: [fab] Split Fedora-Announce-List In-Reply-To: <20060417185839.GC32157@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <4443E2B7.40100@redhat.com> <20060417185013.GB32157@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1145300033.349.83.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <20060417185839.GC32157@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20060417210619.GA25648@tomservo.boston.redhat.com> On Mon, Apr 17, 2006 at 02:58:39PM -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Rahul Sundaram (sundaram at fedoraproject.org) said:. > > > We already use mailman categories for each release; users already have > > > the option to only see what they want. > >. > > I dont think many people have a clue on what mailman categories are and > > how to use them. >. > Opportunities for education. I think the overhead of having to > continually create and maintain different mailing lists (and > point all the update announcements at different places per release, > etc.) isn't worth it. > > We could go down the RHN route.... most general package updates > aren't announced, and data is pulled from the update tool. How's > that advisory-in-pup work going? That sounds like a good option to me. The other day I wrote up some notes[0] on bringing the update system out from under it's rock, which would help bring a bit more cohesion between the core/extras/legacy projects. The update system would have no problem firing off emails all day, so both are viable options. The metadata generation code is already in the update system, and having all update notifications stream through a pup applet sounds like a good approach. luke [0]: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/UpdateSystem From mspevack at redhat.com Mon Apr 17 21:06:29 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 17:06:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Split Fedora-Announce-List In-Reply-To: <44440211.3010909@redhat.com> References: <4443E2B7.40100@redhat.com> <4443E72C.2000909@redhat.com> <1145301133.349.88.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <44440211.3010909@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Apr 2006, Warren Togami wrote: > Elliot Lee wrote: >> Someone inside RH (Warren?) can fill in the form to request a new mailing >> list, and once it is created, we'll need someone to change the fedora >> updates system & docs to have the new address, and announce the change to >> the world, with a special message to the RH developers and the >> fedora-announce-list moderators. >> > > OK, I'll drive this. A big part of this is that last part -- adequately informing the community of the changes that are made, so people don't feel like they're losing information, or drop off the train of information. People are bound to have questions -- we should have the content for the wiki page, email post, etc. about this changed ready *before* we do it, so that we can make the change and also have the communication about it all go out at once. -- Max Spevack + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/~mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From tchung at fedoraproject.org Mon Apr 17 21:10:55 2006 From: tchung at fedoraproject.org (Thomas Chung) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 14:10:55 -0700 Subject: [fab] Split Fedora-Announce-List In-Reply-To: <44440211.3010909@redhat.com> References: <4443E2B7.40100@redhat.com> <4443E72C.2000909@redhat.com> <1145301133.349.88.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <44440211.3010909@redhat.com> Message-ID: <369bce3b0604171410h677275abw82b013a929e6e748@mail.gmail.com> On 4/17/06, Warren Togami wrote: > But do we have agreement on the list name? > > I personally think "fedora-updates-announce" would be good, because it > states the exact purpose of this list. Is it "fedora-updates-announce-list" or just "fedora-updates-announce"? "fedora-announce-updates" has a room to grow if we ever decided to add "-extras", "-legacy", "-news" or something in the the future. It this is too long, I will simply go with "fedora-updates-list" which is a lot easy to remember and refer to general users. Regards, -- Thomas Chung http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung From mspevack at redhat.com Tue Apr 18 03:44:14 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 23:44:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] tuesday's fedora project board meeting Message-ID: The Fedora Project Board meets on Tuesday at 5:00 PM EDT. I'm posting a proposed agenda to this list because it's a great way to generate discussion, and the meeting summary will be posted to the wiki once it is compiled. This is my first draft -- it's probably more than enough to get some conversations going on this list and take up a big chunk of the hour phone call. If there's other topics people would like to see, please add them. An action item for me is to set up some space on the wiki to track this stuff, so that it doesn't get lost in email list jumble. ==================================================================== AGENDA 1. Topics ready for f-advisory-b list discussion. For each of these topics, I'd like to get one board member to volunteer to start the thread on f-a-b this week, and serve as a moderator of the discussion. + Fedora Project Board governance policy - succession and election - handling of Red Hat seats - handling of community seats - terms for community seats - expand on the initial discussion we had at the first meeting 2. Topics to discuss and assign a board member to "own" where applicable -- with other board members offering support (for example, lots of legal questions will probably go through me to Mark Webbink). + Updates from Board members on happenings in the Fedora world: - what do we need to know, that we might not already? - new packaging guidelines for maintainers - what is Ambassadors up to? - anything going on in Extras? Docs? etc. + Lowering barriers to entry for contributors - getting started as a contributor - how to start a new SIG - how can we simplify the CLA and still keep things legal? - etc, etc. coming up with the questions is part of it. + Single sign-on capability, plone, website team's plans - this needs an owner who can make some headway and report back - skvidal seems like a good choice for this??? + "opening core" - what's the best term for this? - notting, katzj, sopwith, mspevack all involved - bring the other board members up to speed - make sure everyone knows what's going on - any additional action needed? + Need a clear, coherent policy around usage of "Fedora" as a whole - what can people do/change and still call it Fedora - Kadischi as an example - everything must be part of the Fedora project? - any exceptions? - does Paul want to tackle a draft of this? 3. Stuff that needs to start getting done, and has an owner. + Producing frequent "Fedora Status Reports" - aggregating status reports from all PMC's (monthly) - Fedora Board status reports - Messaging of progress through RHAT and community - If we do it right, this *shouldn't* be that much work - mspevack volunteers for ownership -- Max Spevack + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/~mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From mspevack at redhat.com Tue Apr 18 03:56:41 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 23:56:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] how should we run this list? Message-ID: I've got 31 folks on this list right now. They're all folks who were either on the old advisors list, or who contacted me specifically and "made sense" to add. http://www.redhat.com/mailman/roster/fedora-advisory-board How do we want to handle subscriptions in general? Should we just let anyone on? Do we want to keep the subscribed members to folks who have "proven" their contributions to Fedora? How do we decide? How do we keep the signal/noise level on this list at a good place? Are there criteria under which people can be removed? etc etc. Discuss. -- Max Spevack + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/~mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From tchung at fedoraproject.org Tue Apr 18 04:15:53 2006 From: tchung at fedoraproject.org (Thomas Chung) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2006 21:15:53 -0700 Subject: [fab] how should we run this list? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <369bce3b0604172115j355da127ld07b38942ccc63c3@mail.gmail.com> On 4/17/06, Max Spevack wrote: > I've got 31 folks on this list right now. They're all folks who were > either on the old advisors list, or who contacted me specifically and > "made sense" to add. > > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/roster/fedora-advisory-board > > How do we want to handle subscriptions in general? Should we just let > anyone on? Do we want to keep the subscribed members to folks who have > "proven" their contributions to Fedora? How do we decide? How do we keep > the signal/noise level on this list at a good place? Are there criteria > under which people can be removed? Allow me to be the first to start the conversation. :) Personally, I believe this list should run similar to fedora-ambassadors-list. We have several moderators who all monitor the subscriptions and approve based on their minimum requirements. Obviously those requirements should be different than Fedora Ambassadors Program since this is a place where *the leaders of leaders* discuss the future direction of Fedora Project. So yes, I believe this list should be subscribed by people who "proved" their contributions to Fedora. As far as criteria goes, I believe it should be drafted by the board and fine tuned by the advisory board. Regards, -- Thomas Chung http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung From deisenst at gtw.net Tue Apr 18 08:43:08 2006 From: deisenst at gtw.net (David Eisenstein) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 03:43:08 -0500 Subject: But Why? Re: [fab] Split Fedora-Announce-List In-Reply-To: References: <4443E2B7.40100@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4444A69C.3070601@gtw.net> Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > On Mon, 17 Apr 2006, Elliot Lee wrote: > > >>The way that worked well for RHL was separating things into a >>redhat-announce-list that received just regular announcements, and >>redhat-watch-list that received security notices. > > > +1 to fedora-watch-list for updates to all Fedora versions. Have a question and a few comments. Why do we need to do this? Split up the Fedora-Announce list? I haven't heard complaints from the general user community about there being announcements mixed in with package updates. The idea may have merits, might it be a good idea to run this by our peers in the Fedora community? Could there be downstream consequences to changing the lists and/or adding a new one? Could there be end users or corporate users or security-related mailing lists or websites that will be affected if all of a sudden Fedora-Announce-List is bereft of software update announcements? Regarding Fedora Announcements (or Fedora *Package* Announcements): I find that sometimes the announcements of package updates have ended up not being as well-maintained in the archives that are kept as I would like. In my opinion, it is very important to have some formal repository where end-users and developers can go to find all the info on updates for package xyz for distro X. But the Fedora Project does not (yet) offer some kind of formal web-based or RSS-based repository for package update information comparable to Red Hat Network's web-pages for Red Hat Enterprise Linux. We have instead - list archives. Which work, to a point. Sometimes these list archives end up borked. For example, the gzipped mbox archive file for Fedora Announce List, , is missing everything before March 22nd. The other day, I needed that information: So I had to go out to an externally-maintained place, gmane.org, to retrieve those missing announcements. (Yes, I know, I should be subscribed there....) The point is this: However the Fedora lists are organized, they need to be well-maintained if they are to be a reliable record of Fedora software activity for end users who come to install Fedora long after a distro has been released, so they'll know what updates are available and why they've been updated from the CD's they bought. This is the *only* record some of us have. Thanks for considering these random thoughts. Regards, David Eisenstein of Fedora Legacy From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Apr 18 11:53:42 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 17:23:42 +0530 Subject: But Why? Re: [fab] Split Fedora-Announce-List In-Reply-To: <4444A69C.3070601@gtw.net> References: <4443E2B7.40100@redhat.com> <4444A69C.3070601@gtw.net> Message-ID: <1145361222.349.111.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> On Tue, 2006-04-18 at 03:43 -0500, David Eisenstein wrote: > Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > On Mon, 17 Apr 2006, Elliot Lee wrote: > > > > > >>The way that worked well for RHL was separating things into a > >>redhat-announce-list that received just regular announcements, and > >>redhat-watch-list that received security notices. > > > > > > +1 to fedora-watch-list for updates to all Fedora versions. > > Have a question and a few comments. Why do we need to do this? Split up > the Fedora-Announce list? I haven't heard complaints from the general user > community about there being announcements mixed in with package updates. > The idea may have merits, might it be a good idea to run this by our peers > in the Fedora community? Ambassadors for example had complaints that general announcements being mixed with package updates made it much harder for them to track relevant information. > > Could there be downstream consequences to changing the lists and/or adding a > new one? Could there be end users or corporate users or security-related > mailing lists or websites that will be affected if all of a sudden > Fedora-Announce-List is bereft of software update announcements? We would send a announcement to the list explaining the nature of the change and why it is made of course. > > Regarding Fedora Announcements (or Fedora *Package* Announcements): I find > that sometimes the announcements of package updates have ended up not being > as well-maintained in the archives that are kept as I would like. In my > opinion, it is very important to have some formal repository where end-users > and developers can go to find all the info on updates for package xyz for > distro X. But the Fedora Project does not (yet) offer some kind of formal > web-based or RSS-based repository for package update information comparable > to Red Hat Network's web-pages for Red Hat > Enterprise Linux. We have instead - list archives. Which work, to a point. > > Sometimes these list archives end up borked. For example, the gzipped > mbox archive file for Fedora Announce List, > , > is missing everything before March 22nd. The other day, I needed that > information: So I had to go out to an externally-maintained place, > gmane.org, to retrieve those missing announcements. (Yes, I know, I should > be subscribed there....) > > The point is this: However the Fedora lists are organized, they need to > be well-maintained if they are to be a reliable record of Fedora software > activity for end users who come to install Fedora long after a distro has > been released, so they'll know what updates are available and why they've > been updated from the CD's they bought. This is the *only* record some of > us have. > > Thanks for considering these random thoughts. Right. The lists would have to be well maintained but we are not going to rely on this to notify end users about updates. Not many non technical end users would subscribe to mailing list to keep themselves updated. For them, the answer is providing good notification information using client side tools that is already being worked upon. Rahul From chitlesh at fedoraproject.org Tue Apr 18 13:37:53 2006 From: chitlesh at fedoraproject.org (Chitlesh GOORAH) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 15:37:53 +0200 Subject: [fab] Kadischi : Legal issues Message-ID: <13dbfe4f0604180637y26891076vb123bf24ccdea683@mail.gmail.com> Hello there, I wish to find answers to certain confusions within the Kadischi community concerning the Kadischi Project since the "No Fedora Foundation" announcement and the Fedora Live CD/DVD intention. Legal --------- Based on the 'Legal' materials on the fedoraproject wiki, I've published http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Kadischi/Legal with the approval of GDK. This wiki page defines certain legal issues for the Livecd tester and as well as the Livecd creator. Nevertheless, there's still confusion concerning the Fedora Logo usage and the trademark 'Fedora', specialy that many are building their own livecd. [quoting] "Red Hat does not permit or consent to any use of its trademarks in any manner that is likely to cause confusion by implying association with or sponsorship by Red Hat" There is a lack of guidelines concerning the use of word "Red Hat" in a 1. - personalised livecd based on Fedora but still complies to the Fedora Policies 2. - personalised livecd based on Fedora but does NOT comply to the Fedora Policies Should the both creators of such livecds strip the words 'Fedora' and 'redhat' completely from their product ? or only the creator (2) should strip them off. For me it's clear enough, that Red Hat isn't associated or a sponsor for those livecds. Hence should we state clearly that neither the Fedora Project nor Red Hat approve the usage of Fedora Logo in those LiveCDs ? But how about, if I or Kadischi/Contributors wants to bring forward a _official_ live CD, does Red Hat still associated of a sponsor for such livecd ? Any other idea that you might think that Kadischi/Legal wiki page should entail for the benefit of everyone ? Fedora Live CD/DVD --------- [quoting] Live CD (Kadischi) -- Lots of people like the idea of this project, but there are still some problems to solve. We should empower people to take the reins, but if they hit a roadblock we need to find a way to assign them some help, without simply (a) taking the project away, or (b) saddling Red Hat developers with new work. DECIDED: Jeremy will take up the cause for Kadischi. I've started a discussion on the live-cd mailing list late last week: Kadischi: roadmap from Board meeting https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-livecd-list/2006-April/msg00096.html I just want to hear more on this subject, (preferably on the livecd mailing list) what is intended and how things will get moving ? - who builds the livecds ? me ? - how to make the livecd useful for Fedora ambassadors ... - infrastructure for uploading livecds? (last time, I was hard to find somebody to grant me some space) This is really something new. There was never an official livecd before for the Fedora Project, i think Its time we start to do brainstorming about it. Also, we should be clear enough about the definitions: Kadischi : Kadischi is a Fedora Live CD creator tool. (shouldn't be confused as a Fedora Live CD) Kadischi Project : Kadischi Project is an initiative to build and make available a Fedora Live CD. maybe many things of these have been discussed before that Im not aware of. regards, Chitlesh GOORAH -- http://clunixchit.blogspot.com From amaier at redhat.com Tue Apr 18 13:44:25 2006 From: amaier at redhat.com (Alex Maier) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 09:44:25 -0400 Subject: [fab] Kadischi : Legal issues In-Reply-To: <13dbfe4f0604180637y26891076vb123bf24ccdea683@mail.gmail.com> References: <13dbfe4f0604180637y26891076vb123bf24ccdea683@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1145367866.4611.2.camel@dhcp13-197.munich.redhat.com> Chitlesh, In my understanding the below passage means that the "Red Hat" logo and trademark cannot be used by anyone without express permission, NOT the "Fedora" logo and trademark. This august body will correct me if I'm wrong. Cheers, a On Tue, 2006-04-18 at 15:37 +0200, Chitlesh GOORAH wrote: > [quoting] > "Red Hat does not permit or consent to any use of its trademarks in > any manner > that is likely to cause confusion by implying association with or > sponsorship > by Red Hat" Alex Maier Red Hat---Sr Marketing Specialist 1801 Varsity Dr, Raleigh, NC 27606, USA Direct: +1 919 754 4004 Mobile: +1 919 455 8330 From mwebbink at redhat.com Tue Apr 18 13:51:45 2006 From: mwebbink at redhat.com (Mark Webbink) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 09:51:45 -0400 Subject: [fab] Kadischi : Legal issues In-Reply-To: <13dbfe4f0604180637y26891076vb123bf24ccdea683@mail.gmail.com> References: <13dbfe4f0604180637y26891076vb123bf24ccdea683@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4444EEF1.1090502@redhat.com> Immediate answer - the Fedora trademark guidelines pertain to the specific FEDORA mark and logo, not the Red Hat marks (RED HAT, Shadowman logo, etc.). No permission is granted to use RED HAT or other Red Hat marks with the Fedora Project or Fedora Project technologies. As to appropriate use of the Fedora marks, longer answer to follow. Mark Chitlesh GOORAH wrote: >Hello there, > >I wish to find answers to certain confusions within the Kadischi >community concerning the Kadischi Project since the "No Fedora >Foundation" announcement and the Fedora Live CD/DVD intention. > >Legal >--------- >Based on the 'Legal' materials on the fedoraproject wiki, I've >published http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Kadischi/Legal with the >approval of GDK. > >This wiki page defines certain legal issues for the Livecd tester and >as well as the Livecd creator. > >Nevertheless, there's still confusion concerning the Fedora Logo usage >and the trademark 'Fedora', specialy that many are building their own >livecd. > >[quoting] >"Red Hat does not permit or consent to any use of its trademarks in any manner >that is likely to cause confusion by implying association with or sponsorship >by Red Hat" > >There is a lack of guidelines concerning the use of word "Red Hat" in a >1. - personalised livecd based on Fedora but still complies to the >Fedora Policies >2. - personalised livecd based on Fedora but does NOT comply to the >Fedora Policies >Should the both creators of such livecds strip the words 'Fedora' and >'redhat' completely from their product ? or only the creator (2) >should strip them off. > >For me it's clear enough, that Red Hat isn't associated or a sponsor >for those livecds. Hence should we state clearly that neither the >Fedora Project nor Red Hat approve the usage of Fedora Logo in those >LiveCDs ? > >But how about, if I or Kadischi/Contributors wants to bring forward a >_official_ live CD, does Red Hat still associated of a sponsor for >such livecd ? > >Any other idea that you might think that Kadischi/Legal wiki page >should entail for the benefit of everyone ? > >Fedora Live CD/DVD >--------- > >[quoting] >Live CD (Kadischi) -- Lots of people like the idea of this project, >but there are still some problems to solve. We should empower people >to take the reins, but if they hit a roadblock we need to find a way >to assign them some help, without simply (a) taking the project away, >or (b) saddling Red Hat developers with new work. DECIDED: Jeremy will >take up the cause for Kadischi. > > >I've started a discussion on the live-cd mailing list late last week: >Kadischi: roadmap from Board meeting > >https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-livecd-list/2006-April/msg00096.html > >I just want to hear more on this subject, (preferably on the livecd >mailing list) what is intended and how things will get moving ? > > - who builds the livecds ? me ? > - how to make the livecd useful for Fedora ambassadors ... > - infrastructure for uploading livecds? (last time, I was hard to >find somebody to grant me some space) > >This is really something new. There was never an official livecd >before for the Fedora Project, i think Its time we start to do >brainstorming about it. > >Also, we should be clear enough about the definitions: > >Kadischi : Kadischi is a Fedora Live CD creator tool. >(shouldn't be confused as a Fedora Live CD) > >Kadischi Project : Kadischi Project is an initiative to build and make >available a Fedora Live CD. > >maybe many things of these have been discussed before that Im not aware of. > >regards, >Chitlesh GOORAH >-- >http://clunixchit.blogspot.com > >_______________________________________________ >fedora-advisory-board mailing list >fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chitlesh at fedoraproject.org Tue Apr 18 14:11:22 2006 From: chitlesh at fedoraproject.org (Chitlesh GOORAH) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 16:11:22 +0200 Subject: [fab] Kadischi : Legal issues In-Reply-To: <4444EEF1.1090502@redhat.com> References: <13dbfe4f0604180637y26891076vb123bf24ccdea683@mail.gmail.com> <4444EEF1.1090502@redhat.com> Message-ID: <13dbfe4f0604180711o7ad51e72t7a6112d86d610151@mail.gmail.com> I got you two guys right, Red Hat allows anyone who builds a livecd to use Fedora Logos and Fedora Trademarks, or are there some restrictions? On 4/18/06, Mark Webbink wrote: > Immediate answer - the Fedora trademark guidelines pertain to the specific > FEDORA mark and logo, not the Red Hat marks (RED HAT, Shadowman logo, etc.). > No permission is granted to use RED HAT or other Red Hat marks with the > Fedora Project or Fedora Project technologies. As to appropriate use of the > Fedora marks, longer answer to follow. > > Mark > > Chitlesh GOORAH wrote: > > Hello there, I wish to find answers to certain confusions within the > Kadischi community concerning the Kadischi Project since the "No Fedora > Foundation" announcement and the Fedora Live CD/DVD intention. Legal > --------- Based on the 'Legal' materials on the fedoraproject wiki, I've > published http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Kadischi/Legal with > the approval of GDK. This wiki page defines certain legal issues for the > Livecd tester and as well as the Livecd creator. Nevertheless, there's still > confusion concerning the Fedora Logo usage and the trademark 'Fedora', > specialy that many are building their own livecd. [quoting] "Red Hat does > not permit or consent to any use of its trademarks in any manner that is > likely to cause confusion by implying association with or sponsorship by Red > Hat" There is a lack of guidelines concerning the use of word "Red Hat" in a > 1. - personalised livecd based on Fedora but still complies to the Fedora > Policies 2. - personalised livecd based on Fedora but does NOT comply to the > Fedora Policies Should the both creators of such livecds strip the words > 'Fedora' and 'redhat' completely from their product ? or only the creator > (2) should strip them off. For me it's clear enough, that Red Hat isn't > associated or a sponsor for those livecds. Hence should we state clearly > that neither the Fedora Project nor Red Hat approve the usage of Fedora Logo > in those LiveCDs ? But how about, if I or Kadischi/Contributors wants to > bring forward a _official_ live CD, does Red Hat still associated of a > sponsor for such livecd ? Any other idea that you might think that > Kadischi/Legal wiki page should entail for the benefit of everyone ? Fedora > Live CD/DVD --------- [quoting] Live CD (Kadischi) -- Lots of people like > the idea of this project, but there are still some problems to solve. We > should empower people to take the reins, but if they hit a roadblock we need > to find a way to assign them some help, without simply (a) taking the > project away, or (b) saddling Red Hat developers with new work. DECIDED: > Jeremy will take up the cause for Kadischi. I've started a discussion on the > live-cd mailing list late last week: Kadischi: roadmap from Board meeting > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-livecd-list/2006-April/msg00096.html > I just want to hear more on this subject, (preferably on the livecd mailing > list) what is intended and how things will get moving ? - who builds the > livecds ? me ? - how to make the livecd useful for Fedora ambassadors ... - > infrastructure for uploading livecds? (last time, I was hard to find > somebody to grant me some space) This is really something new. There was > never an official livecd before for the Fedora Project, i think Its time we > start to do brainstorming about it. Also, we should be clear enough about > the definitions: Kadischi : Kadischi is a Fedora Live CD creator tool. > (shouldn't be confused as a Fedora Live CD) Kadischi Project : Kadischi > Project is an initiative to build and make available a Fedora Live CD. maybe > many things of these have been discussed before that Im not aware of. > regards, Chitlesh GOORAH -- http://clunixchit.blogspot.com > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board > > > -- http://clunixchit.blogspot.com From rdieter at math.unl.edu Tue Apr 18 14:16:49 2006 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 09:16:49 -0500 Subject: [fab] Kadischi : Legal issues In-Reply-To: <13dbfe4f0604180711o7ad51e72t7a6112d86d610151@mail.gmail.com> References: <13dbfe4f0604180637y26891076vb123bf24ccdea683@mail.gmail.com> <4444EEF1.1090502@redhat.com> <13dbfe4f0604180711o7ad51e72t7a6112d86d610151@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4444F4D1.4090502@math.unl.edu> Chitlesh GOORAH wrote: > I got you two guys right, Red Hat allows anyone who builds a livecd to > use Fedora Logos and Fedora Trademarks, or are there some > restrictions? Other than following (1), AFAIK, there are no other restrictions. -- Rex (1) http://fedora.redhat.com/about/trademarks/guidelines/ From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Apr 18 15:21:53 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 20:51:53 +0530 Subject: [fab] tuesday's fedora project board meeting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1145373713.349.129.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> On Mon, 2006-04-17 at 23:44 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: > > + Producing frequent "Fedora Status Reports" > - aggregating status reports from all PMC's (monthly) > - Fedora Board status reports > - Messaging of progress through RHAT and community > - If we do it right, this *shouldn't* be that much work > - mspevack volunteers for ownership I believe I have already pointed out that I have this effort running currently (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Projects/WeeklyReports/Archive) which is precisely meant to do what you in mind. Of course more contributions are always welcome. Rahul From mspevack at redhat.com Tue Apr 18 15:26:39 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 11:26:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] tuesday's fedora project board meeting In-Reply-To: <1145373713.349.129.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> References: <1145373713.349.129.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Apr 2006, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > On Mon, 2006-04-17 at 23:44 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: >> >> + Producing frequent "Fedora Status Reports" >> - aggregating status reports from all PMC's (monthly) >> - Fedora Board status reports >> - Messaging of progress through RHAT and community >> - If we do it right, this *shouldn't* be that much work >> - mspevack volunteers for ownership > > I believe I have already pointed out that I have this effort running > currently (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Projects/WeeklyReports/Archive) > which is precisely meant to do what you in mind. Of course more > contributions are always welcome. Yep, it's a matter of building on that and making it even better than it already is. That's why it shouldn't be too hard -- it's already mostly done. --Max -- Max Spevack + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/~mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From kwade at redhat.com Tue Apr 18 15:30:11 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 08:30:11 -0700 Subject: But Why? Re: [fab] Split Fedora-Announce-List In-Reply-To: <1145361222.349.111.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> References: <4443E2B7.40100@redhat.com> <4444A69C.3070601@gtw.net> <1145361222.349.111.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1145374211.2465.239.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2006-04-18 at 17:23 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > On Tue, 2006-04-18 at 03:43 -0500, David Eisenstein wrote: > > > > Could there be downstream consequences to changing the lists and/or adding a > > new one? Could there be end users or corporate users or security-related > > mailing lists or websites that will be affected if all of a sudden > > Fedora-Announce-List is bereft of software update announcements? > > We would send a announcement to the list explaining the nature of the > change and why it is made of course. Which would be an interesting test of David's point -- do people who depend on the content and structure of f-announce-l actually read it? I'd recommend in fact _only_ announcing the idea on f-announce-l and set a specific reply-to for fedora-list or another general discussion list. If that does not generate enough discussion, then we'll know something more than we did before, and can carry the discussion down to specific lists. IME, certain kinds of announcements need to be carried into sub-projects intentionally. When I see something I think Fedora Documentation needs to see from f-announce-l, I forward it. I personally think is makes sense from a content perspective to separate out automated content (package updates, build reports) from general discussion content, especially when one threatens to overwhelm and drown out the other. However, I don't know if it is a good idea to separate _security_ update announcements into just a package update list. I think those warrant a double-post, one to a package list for all software updates, and one to a general announcement list. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Editor * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Fedora Documentation Project http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject Learn. Network. Experience open source. Red Hat Summit Nashville | May 30 - June 2, 2006 Learn more: http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Apr 18 15:34:41 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 08:34:41 -0700 Subject: [fab] Kadischi : Legal issues In-Reply-To: <13dbfe4f0604180711o7ad51e72t7a6112d86d610151@mail.gmail.com> References: <13dbfe4f0604180637y26891076vb123bf24ccdea683@mail.gmail.com> <4444EEF1.1090502@redhat.com> <13dbfe4f0604180711o7ad51e72t7a6112d86d610151@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1145374481.2465.242.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2006-04-18 at 16:11 +0200, Chitlesh GOORAH wrote: > I got you two guys right, Red Hat allows anyone who builds a livecd to > use Fedora Logos and Fedora Trademarks, or are there some > restrictions? Mark addressed that by saying that he would follow his initial email with another email about Fedora marks: > On 4/18/06, Mark Webbink wrote: > As to appropriate use of the > > Fedora marks, longer answer to follow. We should wait for that answer. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Editor * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Fedora Documentation Project http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject Learn. Network. Experience open source. Red Hat Summit Nashville | May 30 - June 2, 2006 Learn more: http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Apr 18 15:35:47 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 21:05:47 +0530 Subject: But Why? Re: [fab] Split Fedora-Announce-List In-Reply-To: <1145374211.2465.239.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <4443E2B7.40100@redhat.com> <4444A69C.3070601@gtw.net> <1145361222.349.111.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1145374211.2465.239.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1145374547.349.133.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> On Tue, 2006-04-18 at 08:30 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Tue, 2006-04-18 at 17:23 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > On Tue, 2006-04-18 at 03:43 -0500, David Eisenstein wrote: > > > > > > Could there be downstream consequences to changing the lists and/or adding a > > > new one? Could there be end users or corporate users or security-related > > > mailing lists or websites that will be affected if all of a sudden > > > Fedora-Announce-List is bereft of software update announcements? > > > > We would send a announcement to the list explaining the nature of the > > change and why it is made of course. > > Which would be an interesting test of David's point -- do people who > depend on the content and structure of f-announce-l actually read it? > > I'd recommend in fact _only_ announcing the idea on f-announce-l and set > a specific reply-to for fedora-list or another general discussion list. > If that does not generate enough discussion, then we'll know something > more than we did before, and can carry the discussion down to specific > lists. > > IME, certain kinds of announcements need to be carried into sub-projects > intentionally. When I see something I think Fedora Documentation needs > to see from f-announce-l, I forward it. I personally think is makes > sense from a content perspective to separate out automated content > (package updates, build reports) from general discussion content, > especially when one threatens to overwhelm and drown out the other. > > However, I don't know if it is a good idea to separate _security_ update > announcements into just a package update list. I think those warrant a > double-post, one to a package list for all software updates, and one to > a general announcement list. The problem with that is that many people *only* want the announcements and do not need the package updates information especially for all the current releases like within Fedora Ambassadors. The arrangement you are suggesting would be more fit for end users who only want to package updates but not the announcements. I dont think there is any value in that. Rahul From gdk at redhat.com Tue Apr 18 15:48:27 2006 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 11:48:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Kadischi : Legal issues In-Reply-To: <1145374481.2465.242.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <13dbfe4f0604180637y26891076vb123bf24ccdea683@mail.gmail.com> <4444EEF1.1090502@redhat.com> <13dbfe4f0604180711o7ad51e72t7a6112d86d610151@mail.gmail.com> <1145374481.2465.242.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: This has been an issue for a long time. I just spoke again with Mark about it. Here's the position we want to adopt, and Mark is good with it: If you build: * A Live CD with entirely Fedora (Core+Extras) content; * A distribution with entirely Fedora (Core+Extras) content; ...then you should be entitled to use the Fedora name "somehow" to represent that content. The "somehow" is not a legal exercise. It's a BRANDING exercise. We need to figure that out, propose it to Mark, and get legal's blessing. We need to answer some hypothetical questions, like for instance: Rex puts together a Whole New Distro, built entirely of Fedora (Core+Extras components), that has just KDE and no GNOME. a. Does he call it: + Fedora KDE? + RexKDE, based on Fedora? + KDExcellent, a Fedora distribution? b. Does he need our approval, or is that approval implied by the fact that it's all Fedora components? Once we successfully answer these branding questions, we can close the issue. --g ------------------------------------------------------------- Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Project || fedoraproject.org Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors ------------------------------------------------------------- On Tue, 18 Apr 2006, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Tue, 2006-04-18 at 16:11 +0200, Chitlesh GOORAH wrote: > > I got you two guys right, Red Hat allows anyone who builds a livecd to > > use Fedora Logos and Fedora Trademarks, or are there some > > restrictions? > > Mark addressed that by saying that he would follow his initial email > with another email about Fedora marks: > > > On 4/18/06, Mark Webbink wrote: > > As to appropriate use of the > > > Fedora marks, longer answer to follow. > > We should wait for that answer. > > - Karsten > -- > Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Editor * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ > gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 > Fedora Documentation Project http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject > > Learn. Network. Experience open source. > Red Hat Summit Nashville | May 30 - June 2, 2006 > Learn more: http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ > From fedora at leemhuis.info Tue Apr 18 15:50:18 2006 From: fedora at leemhuis.info (Thorsten Leemhuis) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 17:50:18 +0200 Subject: [fab] tuesday's fedora project board meeting In-Reply-To: References: <1145373713.349.129.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1145375419.2318.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Am Dienstag, den 18.04.2006, 11:26 -0400 schrieb Max Spevack: > On Tue, 18 Apr 2006, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > On Mon, 2006-04-17 at 23:44 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: > >> + Producing frequent "Fedora Status Reports" > >> - aggregating status reports from all PMC's (monthly) > >> - Fedora Board status reports > >> - Messaging of progress through RHAT and community > >> - If we do it right, this *shouldn't* be that much work > >> - mspevack volunteers for ownership > > > > I believe I have already pointed out that I have this effort running > > currently (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Projects/WeeklyReports/Archive) > > which is precisely meant to do what you in mind. Of course more > > contributions are always welcome. > > Yep, it's a matter of building on that and making it even better than it > already is. That's why it shouldn't be too hard -- it's already mostly > done. The weekly reports worked better in the beginning -- it seems to me that they stalled a bit. Why? Well, for Extras this is my fault because I stopped writing them after I got the impression that other Fedora-Subprojects stopped writing them, too. Cu thl -- Thorsten Leemhuis From gdk at redhat.com Tue Apr 18 15:48:48 2006 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 11:48:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: But Why? Re: [fab] Split Fedora-Announce-List In-Reply-To: <1145374547.349.133.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> References: <4443E2B7.40100@redhat.com> <4444A69C.3070601@gtw.net> <1145361222.349.111.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1145374211.2465.239.camel@erato.phig.org> <1145374547.349.133.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: A lot of discussion here. Who's got the ball to make the decision? --g ------------------------------------------------------------- Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Project || fedoraproject.org Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors ------------------------------------------------------------- On Tue, 18 Apr 2006, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > On Tue, 2006-04-18 at 08:30 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > > On Tue, 2006-04-18 at 17:23 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > On Tue, 2006-04-18 at 03:43 -0500, David Eisenstein wrote: > > > > > > > > Could there be downstream consequences to changing the lists and/or adding a > > > > new one? Could there be end users or corporate users or security-related > > > > mailing lists or websites that will be affected if all of a sudden > > > > Fedora-Announce-List is bereft of software update announcements? > > > > > > We would send a announcement to the list explaining the nature of the > > > change and why it is made of course. > > > > Which would be an interesting test of David's point -- do people who > > depend on the content and structure of f-announce-l actually read it? > > > > I'd recommend in fact _only_ announcing the idea on f-announce-l and set > > a specific reply-to for fedora-list or another general discussion list. > > If that does not generate enough discussion, then we'll know something > > more than we did before, and can carry the discussion down to specific > > lists. > > > > IME, certain kinds of announcements need to be carried into sub-projects > > intentionally. When I see something I think Fedora Documentation needs > > to see from f-announce-l, I forward it. I personally think is makes > > sense from a content perspective to separate out automated content > > (package updates, build reports) from general discussion content, > > especially when one threatens to overwhelm and drown out the other. > > > > However, I don't know if it is a good idea to separate _security_ update > > announcements into just a package update list. I think those warrant a > > double-post, one to a package list for all software updates, and one to > > a general announcement list. > > The problem with that is that many people *only* want the announcements > and do not need the package updates information especially for all the > current releases like within Fedora Ambassadors. The arrangement you are > suggesting would be more fit for end users who only want to package > updates but not the announcements. I dont think there is any value in > that. > > > Rahul > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board > From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Tue Apr 18 15:54:23 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 11:54:23 -0400 Subject: But Why? Re: [fab] Split Fedora-Announce-List In-Reply-To: References: <4443E2B7.40100@redhat.com> <4444A69C.3070601@gtw.net> <1145361222.349.111.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1145374211.2465.239.camel@erato.phig.org> <1145374547.349.133.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1145375663.1568.50.camel@cutter> On Tue, 2006-04-18 at 11:48 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > A lot of discussion here. > > Who's got the ball to make the decision? You left out an 's' in that sentence. -sv From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Apr 18 15:53:25 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 21:23:25 +0530 Subject: [fab] tuesday's fedora project board meeting In-Reply-To: <1145375419.2318.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1145373713.349.129.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1145375419.2318.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1145375605.349.139.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> On Tue, 2006-04-18 at 17:50 +0200, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > Am Dienstag, den 18.04.2006, 11:26 -0400 schrieb Max Spevack: > > On Tue, 18 Apr 2006, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > On Mon, 2006-04-17 at 23:44 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: > > >> + Producing frequent "Fedora Status Reports" > > >> - aggregating status reports from all PMC's (monthly) > > >> - Fedora Board status reports > > >> - Messaging of progress through RHAT and community > > >> - If we do it right, this *shouldn't* be that much work > > >> - mspevack volunteers for ownership > > > > > > I believe I have already pointed out that I have this effort running > > > currently (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Projects/WeeklyReports/Archive) > > > which is precisely meant to do what you in mind. Of course more > > > contributions are always welcome. > > > > Yep, it's a matter of building on that and making it even better than it > > already is. That's why it shouldn't be too hard -- it's already mostly > > done. > > The weekly reports worked better in the beginning -- it seems to me that > they stalled a bit. Why? Well, for Extras this is my fault because I > stopped writing them after I got the impression that other > Fedora-Subprojects stopped writing them, too. I counted on various people within the individual sub projects to provide updates rather me trying to keep track of everything. For some reason or the other not many have did it continuously. It's a relatively simple task if contributors involved with the sub project share the work. That has worked out well for the release notes. Rahul From gdk at redhat.com Tue Apr 18 15:53:57 2006 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 11:53:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: But Why? Re: [fab] Split Fedora-Announce-List In-Reply-To: <1145375663.1568.50.camel@cutter> References: <4443E2B7.40100@redhat.com> <4444A69C.3070601@gtw.net> <1145361222.349.111.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1145374211.2465.239.camel@erato.phig.org> <1145374547.349.133.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1145375663.1568.50.camel@cutter> Message-ID: It's not a particularly ballsy decision. It just needs to get made. :) --g ------------------------------------------------------------- Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Project || fedoraproject.org Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors ------------------------------------------------------------- On Tue, 18 Apr 2006, seth vidal wrote: > On Tue, 2006-04-18 at 11:48 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > A lot of discussion here. > > > > Who's got the ball to make the decision? > > You left out an 's' in that sentence. > > -sv > > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board > From rdieter at math.unl.edu Tue Apr 18 15:58:13 2006 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 10:58:13 -0500 Subject: But Why? Re: [fab] Split Fedora-Announce-List In-Reply-To: <1145375663.1568.50.camel@cutter> References: <4443E2B7.40100@redhat.com> <4444A69C.3070601@gtw.net> <1145361222.349.111.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1145374211.2465.239.camel@erato.phig.org> <1145374547.349.133.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1145375663.1568.50.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <44450C95.2060805@math.unl.edu> seth vidal wrote: > On Tue, 2006-04-18 at 11:48 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > >>A lot of discussion here. >> >>Who's got the ball to make the decision? > > > You left out an 's' in that sentence. Either way, the thread pretty much had a consensus (minus one dissenter). To me, the decision to split is an easy one. -- Rex From notting at redhat.com Tue Apr 18 15:58:32 2006 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 11:58:32 -0400 Subject: [fab] tuesday's fedora project board meeting In-Reply-To: <1145375605.349.139.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> References: <1145373713.349.129.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1145375419.2318.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1145375605.349.139.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20060418155832.GB8624@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Rahul Sundaram (sundaram at fedoraproject.org) said: > > The weekly reports worked better in the beginning -- it seems to me that > > they stalled a bit. Why? Well, for Extras this is my fault because I > > stopped writing them after I got the impression that other > > Fedora-Subprojects stopped writing them, too. > > I counted on various people within the individual sub projects to > provide updates rather me trying to keep track of everything. For some > reason or the other not many have did it continuously. It's a relatively > simple task if contributors involved with the sub project share the > work. That has worked out well for the release notes. What I think we should intend is that there Will be weekly reports, that are then rolled up into the Wiki and FWN. If there is consistent slack in a project, then we, as the board, can get out the hammer. Bill From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Tue Apr 18 16:03:00 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 12:03:00 -0400 Subject: But Why? Re: [fab] Split Fedora-Announce-List In-Reply-To: References: <4443E2B7.40100@redhat.com> <4444A69C.3070601@gtw.net> <1145361222.349.111.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1145374211.2465.239.camel@erato.phig.org> <1145374547.349.133.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1145375663.1568.50.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1145376180.1568.53.camel@cutter> On Tue, 2006-04-18 at 11:53 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > It's not a particularly ballsy decision. It just needs to get made. :) > I guess I'm missing what the big controversy is. We'd be best off producing messages in such a way and using such technology that we can easily convert them into N different formats. Or better yet, that someone else can for themselves. -sv From rdieter at math.unl.edu Tue Apr 18 16:14:19 2006 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 11:14:19 -0500 Subject: [fab] Re: Kadischi : Legal issues In-Reply-To: References: <13dbfe4f0604180637y26891076vb123bf24ccdea683@mail.gmail.com> <4444EEF1.1090502@redhat.com> <13dbfe4f0604180711o7ad51e72t7a6112d86d610151@mail.gmail.com> <1145374481.2465.242.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <4445105B.1000307@math.unl.edu> Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > If you build: > * A Live CD with entirely Fedora (Core+Extras) content; > * A distribution with entirely Fedora (Core+Extras) content; > > ...then you should be entitled to use the Fedora name "somehow" to > represent that content. > > The "somehow" is not a legal exercise. It's a BRANDING exercise. We need > to figure that out, propose it to Mark, and get legal's blessing. +1 (I'll see if I can whip up something more concrete...) > We need to answer some hypothetical questions, like for instance: > Rex puts together a Whole New Distro, built entirely of Fedora > (Core+Extras components), that has just KDE and no GNOME. > > a. Does he call it: > + Fedora KDE? > + RexKDE, based on Fedora? > + KDExcellent, a Fedora distribution? All good suggestions. :) > b. Does he need our approval, or is that approval implied > by the fact that it's all Fedora components? I'd say implied, if we go with your (IMO good) suggestion that LiveCDs/distributions derived from entirely Fedora content be entitled to use the Fedora name. On the other hand, what about folks who include non-Fedora components? Should they be able to say something like "based on... Fedora" too? I'm guessing, no, unfortunately. I'd hate to have to forbid this kind of thing outright, so what allowance(s) can be made for situations like this? -- Rex From matt at domsch.com Tue Apr 18 16:22:11 2006 From: matt at domsch.com (Matt Domsch) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 11:22:11 -0500 Subject: [fab] Re: Kadischi : Legal issues In-Reply-To: <4445105B.1000307@math.unl.edu> References: <13dbfe4f0604180637y26891076vb123bf24ccdea683@mail.gmail.com> <4444EEF1.1090502@redhat.com> <13dbfe4f0604180711o7ad51e72t7a6112d86d610151@mail.gmail.com> <1145374481.2465.242.camel@erato.phig.org> <4445105B.1000307@math.unl.edu> Message-ID: <20060418162211.GA26908@domsch.com> On Tue, Apr 18, 2006 at 11:14:19AM -0500, Rex Dieter wrote: > On the other hand, what about folks who include non-Fedora components? > Should they be able to say something like "based on... Fedora" too? > I'm guessing, no, unfortunately. I'd hate to have to forbid this kind > of thing outright, so what allowance(s) can be made for situations like > this? Not in the name of the product (the branding thereof), but there shouldn't be a problem with someone branding a CD "FooBar the Great" (with no mention of Fedora in the name), that includes Fedora content. As a hypothetical, say a LiveCD with Fedora components, plus Dell's OMSA management software (which isn't open source). It can't be branded anything related to Fedora, but it can be separately branded. The READMEs and docs may say "based on Fedora" or "created with Fedora content", but not the product title. -Matt From fedora at leemhuis.info Tue Apr 18 16:43:18 2006 From: fedora at leemhuis.info (Thorsten Leemhuis) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 18:43:18 +0200 Subject: [fab] tuesday's fedora project board meeting In-Reply-To: <1145375605.349.139.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> References: <1145373713.349.129.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1145375419.2318.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1145375605.349.139.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1145378599.2318.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> Am Dienstag, den 18.04.2006, 21:23 +0530 schrieb Rahul Sundaram: > On Tue, 2006-04-18 at 17:50 +0200, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > > Am Dienstag, den 18.04.2006, 11:26 -0400 schrieb Max Spevack: > > > On Tue, 18 Apr 2006, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > > On Mon, 2006-04-17 at 23:44 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: > > > >> + Producing frequent "Fedora Status Reports" > > > >> - aggregating status reports from all PMC's (monthly) > > > >> - Fedora Board status reports > > > >> - Messaging of progress through RHAT and community > > > >> - If we do it right, this *shouldn't* be that much work > > > >> - mspevack volunteers for ownership > > > > > > > > I believe I have already pointed out that I have this effort running > > > > currently (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Projects/WeeklyReports/Archive) > > > > which is precisely meant to do what you in mind. Of course more > > > > contributions are always welcome. > > > > > > Yep, it's a matter of building on that and making it even better than it > > > already is. That's why it shouldn't be too hard -- it's already mostly > > > done. > > > > The weekly reports worked better in the beginning -- it seems to me that > > they stalled a bit. Why? Well, for Extras this is my fault because I > > stopped writing them after I got the impression that other > > Fedora-Subprojects stopped writing them, too. > > I counted on various people within the individual sub projects to > provide updates rather me trying to keep track of everything. And that's okay. I tried to help by doing the work for some weeks until it seemed to me that the concept stucked. > For some > reason or the other not many have did it continuously. I got the impression that nobody read it (I know that not entirely true). The reports didn't get announced on fedora-announce list and the Red Hat Magazine continued to use the news from fedoranews.org instead of the weekly reports. It seemed that only some insiders even knew that there are weekly reports compiled. That was the point where I thought "I have more important things to do" (BTW: I really would prefer if the Fedora weekly reports were used in the Red Hat magazine. Why? I don't like some of the content on fedoranews.org much -- but that's another story and I should probably talk to tchung about that directly). > It's a relatively > simple task if contributors involved with the sub project share the > work. That has worked out well for the release notes. I agree. But you have to find new contributors for that. Putting the burden only one one person per sub-project is going to fail. Especially if those persons don't have a lot of other work already. CU thl -- Thorsten Leemhuis From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Apr 18 16:51:03 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 22:21:03 +0530 Subject: [fab] tuesday's fedora project board meeting In-Reply-To: <1145378599.2318.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1145373713.349.129.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1145375419.2318.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1145375605.349.139.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1145378599.2318.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1145379064.349.146.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Hi On Tue, 2006-04-18 at 18:43 +0200, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > > > I counted on various people within the individual sub projects to > > provide updates rather me trying to keep track of everything. > > And that's okay. I tried to help by doing the work for some weeks until > it seemed to me that the concept stucked. I dont think it got struck but the flow of content has been low. > > > For some > > reason or the other not many have did it continuously. > > I got the impression that nobody read it (I know that not entirely > true). The reports didn't get announced on fedora-announce list and the > Red Hat Magazine continued to use the news from fedoranews.org instead > of the weekly reports. It seemed that only some insiders even knew that > there are weekly reports compiled. That was the point where I thought "I > have more important things to do" Thats a good point. I guess I could do the announcements every monday to fedora-announce list. > > (BTW: I really would prefer if the Fedora weekly reports were used in > the Red Hat magazine. Why? I don't like some of the content on > fedoranews.org much -- but that's another story and I should probably > talk to tchung about that directly). I would like fedoranews.org to move into a model where it publishes news as and when it is announced rather than wait for the end of the week. Weekly summaries can still be provided for all the published news for other websites to syndicate it. Fedoranews.org and Red Hat Magazine can link to the weekly reports too. > > > It's a relatively > > simple task if contributors involved with the sub project share the > > work. That has worked out well for the release notes. > > I agree. But you have to find new contributors for that. Putting the > burden only one one person per sub-project is going to fail. Especially > if those persons don't have a lot of other work already. It is not limited to one person per sub-project. Like I said anyone who is willing to contribute is more than welcome to do so. Rahul From gdk at redhat.com Tue Apr 18 16:50:26 2006 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 12:50:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Re: Kadischi : Legal issues In-Reply-To: <20060418162211.GA26908@domsch.com> References: <13dbfe4f0604180637y26891076vb123bf24ccdea683@mail.gmail.com> <4444EEF1.1090502@redhat.com> <13dbfe4f0604180711o7ad51e72t7a6112d86d610151@mail.gmail.com> <1145374481.2465.242.camel@erato.phig.org> <4445105B.1000307@math.unl.edu> <20060418162211.GA26908@domsch.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Apr 2006, Matt Domsch wrote: > Not in the name of the product (the branding thereof), but there > shouldn't be a problem with someone branding a CD "FooBar the Great" > (with no mention of Fedora in the name), that includes Fedora content. > As a hypothetical, say a LiveCD with Fedora components, plus Dell's > OMSA management software (which isn't open source). It can't be > branded anything related to Fedora, but it can be separately branded. > The READMEs and docs may say "based on Fedora" or "created with Fedora > content", but not the product title. This is correct, as I understand it, with one notable caveat: I believe that you must then pull the Fedora trademarks out. Which is, IIRC, pretty straightforward. We may want to present a helpful guide on how to do that. --g ------------------------------------------------------------- Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Project || fedoraproject.org Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors ------------------------------------------------------------- From mspevack at redhat.com Tue Apr 18 16:53:30 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 12:53:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: But Why? Re: [fab] Split Fedora-Announce-List In-Reply-To: <1145376180.1568.53.camel@cutter> References: <4443E2B7.40100@redhat.com> <4444A69C.3070601@gtw.net> <1145361222.349.111.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1145374211.2465.239.camel@erato.phig.org> <1145374547.349.133.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1145375663.1568.50.camel@cutter> <1145376180.1568.53.camel@cutter> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Apr 2006, seth vidal wrote: > On Tue, 2006-04-18 at 11:53 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: >> It's not a particularly ballsy decision. It just needs to get made. :) >> > > I guess I'm missing what the big controversy is. > > We'd be best off producing messages in such a way and using such > technology that we can easily convert them into N different formats. Or > better yet, that someone else can for themselves. Warren -- you brought this discussion to the list. It's your baby. Sort through all the comments, present a final proposal/decision, and then make it happen. If you still want it. If not, say so and someone else can pick up the ball. --Max -- Max Spevack + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/~mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From gdk at redhat.com Tue Apr 18 16:52:44 2006 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 12:52:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] tuesday's fedora project board meeting In-Reply-To: <1145378599.2318.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1145373713.349.129.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1145375419.2318.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1145375605.349.139.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1145378599.2318.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Apr 2006, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > (BTW: I really would prefer if the Fedora weekly reports were used in > the Red Hat magazine. Why? I don't like some of the content on > fedoranews.org much -- but that's another story and I should probably > talk to tchung about that directly). Why not ensure that the Fedora weekly reports are included in fedoranews.org, and use both? --g ------------------------------------------------------------- Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Project || fedoraproject.org Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors ------------------------------------------------------------- From jkeating at redhat.com Tue Apr 18 17:02:07 2006 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 13:02:07 -0400 Subject: [fab] Re: Kadischi : Legal issues In-Reply-To: References: <13dbfe4f0604180637y26891076vb123bf24ccdea683@mail.gmail.com> <4444EEF1.1090502@redhat.com> <13dbfe4f0604180711o7ad51e72t7a6112d86d610151@mail.gmail.com> <1145374481.2465.242.camel@erato.phig.org> <4445105B.1000307@math.unl.edu> <20060418162211.GA26908@domsch.com> Message-ID: <1145379727.3071.47.camel@ender> On Tue, 2006-04-18 at 12:50 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > This is correct, as I understand it, with one notable caveat: > > I believe that you must then pull the Fedora trademarks out. Which > is, > IIRC, pretty straightforward. We may want to present a helpful guide > on > how to do that. > Which brings us to the OEM vendor issue which I talked to you (Greg) about a few months ago. Vendors want to pre-install the popular distro, things that people know, say Fedora. However they also want to be able to value-add to their customers, such as hardware tools (Raid managers), support tools (click me to get customer support), modules for new hardware, etc... These types of things would normally cause the vendor to have to go the route of removing logos and calling it something else, thus confusing the customer base. Instead I would really like to see an OEM program where they can still call it Fedora, or Fedora Plus or something along those lines, and still use the Logo. In order to do this, they should have to provide to the customer the unmodified media sets, and have an 'opt-out' option to get JUST Fedora w/out the vendor enhancements (when possible w/ the hardware sold), and then provide media of the Vendor's enhancements. I don't really have any legal ideas on how to make this happen, but I really do think we need to tackle the OEM issue sooner rather than the continued later. -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From fedora at leemhuis.info Tue Apr 18 17:03:15 2006 From: fedora at leemhuis.info (Thorsten Leemhuis) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 19:03:15 +0200 Subject: [fab] tuesday's fedora project board meeting In-Reply-To: <1145379064.349.146.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> References: <1145373713.349.129.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1145375419.2318.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1145375605.349.139.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1145378599.2318.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1145379064.349.146.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1145379796.2318.27.camel@localhost.localdomain> Am Dienstag, den 18.04.2006, 22:21 +0530 schrieb Rahul Sundaram: > On Tue, 2006-04-18 at 18:43 +0200, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > > > I counted on various people within the individual sub projects to > > > provide updates rather me trying to keep track of everything. > > And that's okay. I tried to help by doing the work for some weeks until > > it seemed to me that the concept stucked. > I dont think it got struck but the flow of content has been low. Very low ;-) > > (BTW: I really would prefer if the Fedora weekly reports were used in > > the Red Hat magazine. Why? I don't like some of the content on > > fedoranews.org much -- but that's another story and I should probably > > talk to tchung about that directly). > I would like fedoranews.org to move into a model where it publishes news > as and when it is announced rather than wait for the end of the week. > Weekly summaries can still be provided for all the published news for > other websites to syndicate it. Fedoranews.org and Red Hat Magazine can > link to the weekly reports too. Sounds like a good idea. It would be good if the news post could be integrated directly info Fedora People. > > > It's a relatively > > > simple task if contributors involved with the sub project share the > > > work. That has worked out well for the release notes. > > I agree. But you have to find new contributors for that. Putting the > > burden only one one person per sub-project is going to fail. Especially > > if those persons don't have a lot of other work already. > It is not limited to one person per sub-project. Like I said anyone who > is willing to contribute is more than welcome to do so. Well, you talked me a bit into it. I didn't like to have yet another job that consumes time -- I did it nevertheless until some weeks ago. I tried to find someone else for the job but no one stepped up. Somebody probably has to get the ball running again and poke Extras people -- I'm sure that we'd find some interested people for it. CU thl -- Thorsten Leemhuis From matt at domsch.com Tue Apr 18 17:09:56 2006 From: matt at domsch.com (Matt Domsch) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 12:09:56 -0500 Subject: [fab] Re: Kadischi : Legal issues In-Reply-To: <1145379727.3071.47.camel@ender> References: <13dbfe4f0604180637y26891076vb123bf24ccdea683@mail.gmail.com> <4444EEF1.1090502@redhat.com> <13dbfe4f0604180711o7ad51e72t7a6112d86d610151@mail.gmail.com> <1145374481.2465.242.camel@erato.phig.org> <4445105B.1000307@math.unl.edu> <20060418162211.GA26908@domsch.com> <1145379727.3071.47.camel@ender> Message-ID: <20060418170956.GB26908@domsch.com> On Tue, Apr 18, 2006 at 01:02:07PM -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > Which brings us to the OEM vendor issue which I talked to you (Greg) > about a few months ago. Vendors want to pre-install the popular distro, > things that people know, say Fedora. When you say OEM and Vendors here, I presume you don't mean any of the large hardware vendors (Dell, IBM, HP, ...), as none of these, due to their product reseller relationships with Red Hat, distribute Fedora as a product (Fedora is not a product...). > However they also want to be able to value-add to their customers, > such as hardware tools (Raid managers), support tools (click me to > get customer support), modules for new hardware, etc... These types > of things would normally cause the vendor to have to go the route of > removing logos and calling it something else, thus confusing the > customer base. > > Instead I would really like to see an OEM program where they can still > call it Fedora, or Fedora Plus or something along those lines, and still > use the Logo. Clearly hardware vendors do this with RHEL today, it must be a solvable issue (or a non-issue). Thanks, Matt From gdk at redhat.com Tue Apr 18 17:10:03 2006 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 13:10:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Fedora branding discussion In-Reply-To: <4445105B.1000307@math.unl.edu> References: <13dbfe4f0604180637y26891076vb123bf24ccdea683@mail.gmail.com> <4444EEF1.1090502@redhat.com> <13dbfe4f0604180711o7ad51e72t7a6112d86d610151@mail.gmail.com> <1145374481.2465.242.camel@erato.phig.org> <4445105B.1000307@math.unl.edu> Message-ID: So after having discussed this with Max over lunch, here's an idea: toss the "branding" question over to Fedora marketing for brainstorming / discussion. Here's the note I'd send: === Subject: Fedora derivates branding discussion The Fedora board needs help with a policy decision. As Fedora evolves, we'll be seeing more and more custom distributions that are spun from the Fedora Universe of packages. Kadischi-based Live CDs are a good example. We'd like to be able to allow these distributions to use the Fedora name -- and we've got tentative buy-in from legal to do it -- so long as the distros are built entirely from Fedora (Core+Extras) packages. So. How should the Fedora brand be used in such cases? Let's say, for example, that Rex Dieter builds a minimal Fedora distro that has KDE and no GNOME -- and he wants to call it "KDExcellent". He also wants people to know that it's derived from official Fedora packages. Should we let him call it: + Fedora KDExcellent? + KDExcellent, based on Fedora? + KDExcellent, a Fedora distribution? Whatever policy we come up with now, we'll be stuck with for quite a while -- so we could use some help. We'll hold this discussion on fedora-marketing-list. If you're interested in this discussion but you're not on fedora-marketing list, you can join here (link). Thanks in advance for your ideas. === Thoughts? --g ------------------------------------------------------------- Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Project || fedoraproject.org Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors ------------------------------------------------------------- On Tue, 18 Apr 2006, Rex Dieter wrote: > Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > > If you build: > > * A Live CD with entirely Fedora (Core+Extras) content; > > * A distribution with entirely Fedora (Core+Extras) content; > > > > ...then you should be entitled to use the Fedora name "somehow" to > > represent that content. > > > > The "somehow" is not a legal exercise. It's a BRANDING exercise. We need > > to figure that out, propose it to Mark, and get legal's blessing. > > +1 (I'll see if I can whip up something more concrete...) > > > We need to answer some hypothetical questions, like for instance: > > > b. Does he need our approval, or is that approval implied > > by the fact that it's all Fedora components? > > I'd say implied, if we go with your (IMO good) suggestion that > LiveCDs/distributions derived from entirely Fedora content be entitled > to use the Fedora name. > > On the other hand, what about folks who include non-Fedora components? > Should they be able to say something like "based on... Fedora" too? > I'm guessing, no, unfortunately. I'd hate to have to forbid this kind > of thing outright, so what allowance(s) can be made for situations like > this? > > -- Rex > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board > From jkeating at redhat.com Tue Apr 18 17:15:58 2006 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 13:15:58 -0400 Subject: [fab] Re: Kadischi : Legal issues In-Reply-To: <20060418170956.GB26908@domsch.com> References: <13dbfe4f0604180637y26891076vb123bf24ccdea683@mail.gmail.com> <4444EEF1.1090502@redhat.com> <13dbfe4f0604180711o7ad51e72t7a6112d86d610151@mail.gmail.com> <1145374481.2465.242.camel@erato.phig.org> <4445105B.1000307@math.unl.edu> <20060418162211.GA26908@domsch.com> <1145379727.3071.47.camel@ender> <20060418170956.GB26908@domsch.com> Message-ID: <1145380559.3071.50.camel@ender> On Tue, 2006-04-18 at 12:09 -0500, Matt Domsch wrote: > When you say OEM and Vendors here, I presume you don't mean any of the > large hardware vendors (Dell, IBM, HP, ...), as none of these, due to > their product reseller relationships with Red Hat, distribute Fedora > as a product (Fedora is not a product...). Yes, I'm speaking of the smaller hardware vendors, like Pogo Linux, or Penguin Computing. Vendors that are too small to have a beneficial reseller relationship with Red Hat and must pay full price for their entitlements. > > However they also want to be able to value-add to their customers, > > such as hardware tools (Raid managers), support tools (click me to > > get customer support), modules for new hardware, etc... These types > > of things would normally cause the vendor to have to go the route of > > removing logos and calling it something else, thus confusing the > > customer base. > > > > Instead I would really like to see an OEM program where they can > still > > call it Fedora, or Fedora Plus or something along those lines, and > still > > use the Logo. > > Clearly hardware vendors do this with RHEL today, it must be a > solvable issue (or a non-issue). There may be something in the OEM agreement with Red Hat for RHEL on what can be added and how. There is nothing for Fedora now, and I'd like to get something in place (; I don't mind driving this either. -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jkeating at redhat.com Tue Apr 18 17:17:31 2006 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 13:17:31 -0400 Subject: [fab] Fedora branding discussion In-Reply-To: References: <13dbfe4f0604180637y26891076vb123bf24ccdea683@mail.gmail.com> <4444EEF1.1090502@redhat.com> <13dbfe4f0604180711o7ad51e72t7a6112d86d610151@mail.gmail.com> <1145374481.2465.242.camel@erato.phig.org> <4445105B.1000307@math.unl.edu> Message-ID: <1145380651.3071.52.camel@ender> On Tue, 2006-04-18 at 13:10 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > As Fedora evolves, we'll be seeing more and more custom distributions > that > are spun from the Fedora Universe of packages. Should this be clarified as the binary packages? IE no taking the srpms, rebuilding them in some wild way, and then releasing THAT as Fedora? -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mspevack at redhat.com Tue Apr 18 17:18:04 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 13:18:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Red Hat Magazine's Fedora Issue Message-ID: Folks might enjoy some light reading, in the latest issue of Red Hat Magazine focusing almost entirely on Fedora: http://www.redhat.com/magazine/ There's some real gems in here -- all of the articles about Fedora are worth a look, in particular: - Greg's FUDCon diary - Rahul's look at FC5 - Igor and Tom's Eclipse articles - my podcast/interview about Fedora Read it, blog about it, spread the word about the stuff you like. -- Max Spevack + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/~mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From fedora at leemhuis.info Tue Apr 18 17:20:55 2006 From: fedora at leemhuis.info (Thorsten Leemhuis) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 19:20:55 +0200 Subject: fedoranews.org (Was Re: [fab] tuesday's fedora project board meeting) In-Reply-To: References: <1145373713.349.129.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1145375419.2318.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1145375605.349.139.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1145378599.2318.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1145380855.2318.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> Am Dienstag, den 18.04.2006, 12:52 -0400 schrieb Greg DeKoenigsberg: > On Tue, 18 Apr 2006, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > > (BTW: I really would prefer if the Fedora weekly reports were used in > > the Red Hat magazine. Why? I don't like some of the content on > > fedoranews.org much -- but that's another story and I should probably > > talk to tchung about that directly). > > Why not ensure that the Fedora weekly reports are included in > fedoranews.org, and use both? Well, I'd like to ask what purpose we are up to with fedoranews.org. What does it do what we can't do at fedoraproject.org? Is it outside of the scope from the legal rules of the Fedora Project? BTW, the reason why I dislike fedoranews.org are articles like this: http://fedoranews.org/mediawiki/index.php/Installing_NVIDIA_drivers_manually_on_FC4 (that's a improved version -- the first one was even worse). There are a lot better ways to install the drivers that are more clean. See http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Xorg/3rdPartyVideoDrivers http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2006-February/msg01178.html Also it encourages people sometimes to enable repos that are not compatible with Core and Extras. CU thl -- Thorsten Leemhuis From rdieter at math.unl.edu Tue Apr 18 17:24:11 2006 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 12:24:11 -0500 Subject: [fab] Fedora branding discussion In-Reply-To: <1145380651.3071.52.camel@ender> References: <13dbfe4f0604180637y26891076vb123bf24ccdea683@mail.gmail.com> <4444EEF1.1090502@redhat.com> <13dbfe4f0604180711o7ad51e72t7a6112d86d610151@mail.gmail.com> <1145374481.2465.242.camel@erato.phig.org> <4445105B.1000307@math.unl.edu> <1145380651.3071.52.camel@ender> Message-ID: <444520BB.9010507@math.unl.edu> Jesse Keating wrote: > On Tue, 2006-04-18 at 13:10 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: >> As Fedora evolves, we'll be seeing more and more custom distributions >> that >> are spun from the Fedora Universe of packages. > > Should this be clarified as the binary packages? IE no taking the > srpms, rebuilding them in some wild way, and then releasing THAT as > Fedora? Yes. ... spun from the Fedora Universe of binary packages (ie, those signed with Fedora's RPM-GPG-KEY(s)). -- Rex From gdk at redhat.com Tue Apr 18 17:26:06 2006 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 13:26:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: fedoranews.org (Was Re: [fab] tuesday's fedora project board meeting) In-Reply-To: <1145380855.2318.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1145373713.349.129.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1145375419.2318.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1145375605.349.139.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1145378599.2318.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1145380855.2318.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Apr 2006, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > > > BTW, the reason why I dislike fedoranews.org are articles like this: > http://fedoranews.org/mediawiki/index.php/Installing_NVIDIA_drivers_manually_on_FC4 > > (that's a improved version -- the first one was even worse). There are a > lot better ways to install the drivers that are more clean. See > > http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Xorg/3rdPartyVideoDrivers > http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2006-February/msg01178.html > > Also it encourages people sometimes to enable repos that are not > compatible with Core and Extras. > > Disclaimer so noted. :) If we're going to make Fedora News "official", then perhaps we should consider putting an editorial board in place. Not to put even more work on people's plates -- but hey, if there are disagreements about "official content", we should hash them out. And why "fedoranews" versus "fedoraproject"? Because fedoranews has already built a brand. --g ------------------------------------------------------------- Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Project || fedoraproject.org Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors ------------------------------------------------------------- From tchung at fedoraproject.org Tue Apr 18 17:47:40 2006 From: tchung at fedoraproject.org (Thomas Chung) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 10:47:40 -0700 Subject: [fab] Re: fedoranews.org Message-ID: <369bce3b0604181047q3a4da5e3pceb553f60fb8f684@mail.gmail.com> On 4/18/06, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > Well, I'd like to ask what purpose we are up to with fedoranews.org. > What does it do what we can't do at fedoraproject.org? Is it outside of > the scope from the legal rules of the Fedora Project? > > > > BTW, the reason why I dislike fedoranews.org are articles like this: > http://fedoranews.org/mediawiki/index.php/Installing_NVIDIA_drivers_manually_on_FC4 > > (that's a improved version -- the first one was even worse). There are a > lot better ways to install the drivers that are more clean. See > > http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Xorg/3rdPartyVideoDrivers > http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2006-February/msg01178.html > > Also it encourages people sometimes to enable repos that are not > compatible with Core and Extras. > > > > CU > thl > -- > Thorsten Leemhuis Wow. What did I miss here? I just saw this email with subject "fedoranews.org" It sounds like someone doesn't like the site just because a few contributors wrote some articles in the past and not happy about. Please note, this is a community website much like community forum such as fedoraforum.org where people can write *whatever* they like and yes, sometimes I let them write an article about *forbidden* item by Fedora Project. Again, this is the *past* and now that Fedora Project is considering "blessing" our site officially, there will be some changes. For one thing, there will be more "moderations" before the artlces get published. In other words, a Review Process will be used among moderators before we publish. However, the site will remain the status of "Community" site where any community member can write just about anything they want if they feel it will benefit the community. If you are concerned about the content of our site, I invite you to become a moderator and help me to maintain a quality site for Fedora Community. Regards, -- Thomas Chung http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung From blizzard at redhat.com Tue Apr 18 18:37:46 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 14:37:46 -0400 Subject: [fab] Kadischi : Legal issues In-Reply-To: References: <13dbfe4f0604180637y26891076vb123bf24ccdea683@mail.gmail.com> <4444EEF1.1090502@redhat.com> <13dbfe4f0604180711o7ad51e72t7a6112d86d610151@mail.gmail.com> <1145374481.2465.242.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <444531FA.8070101@redhat.com> Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > a. Does he call it: > + Fedora KDE? > + RexKDE, based on Fedora? > + KDExcellent, a Fedora distribution? Another might be "KDE LiveCD, based on Fedora." Sounds dorky, but if he's doing it because he likes KDE more than Fedora it makes sense. It's not strong branding for us, because it doesn't look like it has our blessing. So maybe "KDE LiveCD, powered by Fedora." might be better if we're actually blessing it. > > b. Does he need our approval, or is that approval implied > by the fact that it's all Fedora components? Here's another way to put it: if you get it from fedoraproject.org and/or official mirrors, it's Fedora. If you get it from somewhere else it's based on/powered by. That's one possible knife we can use. --Chris > > Once we successfully answer these branding questions, we can close the > issue. > > --g > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Project || fedoraproject.org > Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > On Tue, 18 Apr 2006, Karsten Wade wrote: > >> On Tue, 2006-04-18 at 16:11 +0200, Chitlesh GOORAH wrote: >>> I got you two guys right, Red Hat allows anyone who builds a livecd to >>> use Fedora Logos and Fedora Trademarks, or are there some >>> restrictions? >> Mark addressed that by saying that he would follow his initial email >> with another email about Fedora marks: >> >>> On 4/18/06, Mark Webbink wrote: >>> As to appropriate use of the >>>> Fedora marks, longer answer to follow. >> We should wait for that answer. >> >> - Karsten >> -- >> Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Editor * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ >> gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 >> Fedora Documentation Project http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject >> >> Learn. Network. Experience open source. >> Red Hat Summit Nashville | May 30 - June 2, 2006 >> Learn more: http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ >> > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board From blizzard at redhat.com Tue Apr 18 18:39:00 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 14:39:00 -0400 Subject: [fab] Re: Kadischi : Legal issues In-Reply-To: References: <13dbfe4f0604180637y26891076vb123bf24ccdea683@mail.gmail.com> <4444EEF1.1090502@redhat.com> <13dbfe4f0604180711o7ad51e72t7a6112d86d610151@mail.gmail.com> <1145374481.2465.242.camel@erato.phig.org> <4445105B.1000307@math.unl.edu> <20060418162211.GA26908@domsch.com> Message-ID: <44453244.70503@redhat.com> Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > This is correct, as I understand it, with one notable caveat: > > I believe that you must then pull the Fedora trademarks out. Which is, > IIRC, pretty straightforward. We may want to present a helpful guide on > how to do that. I believe this is already being documented as part of another project. Ask Diana Fong - I think she knows the URL. --Chris From mwebbink at redhat.com Tue Apr 18 18:55:09 2006 From: mwebbink at redhat.com (Mark Webbink) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 14:55:09 -0400 Subject: [fab] Kadischi : Legal issues In-Reply-To: <444531FA.8070101@redhat.com> References: <13dbfe4f0604180637y26891076vb123bf24ccdea683@mail.gmail.com> <4444EEF1.1090502@redhat.com> <13dbfe4f0604180711o7ad51e72t7a6112d86d610151@mail.gmail.com> <1145374481.2465.242.camel@erato.phig.org> <444531FA.8070101@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4445360D.2020905@redhat.com> I am not, not have I ever been, a fan of powered by or based on, since that attributes the value of the brand to something that isn't the brand. It is either a technology to which the brand applies in its entirety, or its not. Mark Christopher Blizzard wrote: > Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > >> a. Does he call it: >> + Fedora KDE? >> + RexKDE, based on Fedora? >> + KDExcellent, a Fedora distribution? > > > Another might be "KDE LiveCD, based on Fedora." Sounds dorky, but if > he's doing it because he likes KDE more than Fedora it makes sense. > It's not strong branding for us, because it doesn't look like it has > our blessing. So maybe "KDE LiveCD, powered by Fedora." might be > better if we're actually blessing it. > >> >> b. Does he need our approval, or is that approval implied >> by the fact that it's all Fedora components? > > > Here's another way to put it: if you get it from fedoraproject.org > and/or official mirrors, it's Fedora. If you get it from somewhere > else it's based on/powered by. That's one possible knife we can use. > > --Chris > >> >> Once we successfully answer these branding questions, we can close >> the issue. >> >> --g >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------- >> Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Project || fedoraproject.org >> Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors >> ------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> On Tue, 18 Apr 2006, Karsten Wade wrote: >> >>> On Tue, 2006-04-18 at 16:11 +0200, Chitlesh GOORAH wrote: >>> >>>> I got you two guys right, Red Hat allows anyone who builds a livecd to >>>> use Fedora Logos and Fedora Trademarks, or are there some >>>> restrictions? >>> >>> Mark addressed that by saying that he would follow his initial email >>> with another email about Fedora marks: >>> >>>> On 4/18/06, Mark Webbink wrote: >>>> As to appropriate use of the >>>> >>>>> Fedora marks, longer answer to follow. >>>> >>> We should wait for that answer. >>> >>> - Karsten >>> -- >>> Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Editor * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ >>> gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E >>> 0C41 Fedora Documentation Project >>> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject >>> >>> Learn. Network. Experience open source. >>> Red Hat Summit Nashville | May 30 - June 2, 2006 >>> Learn more: http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> fedora-advisory-board mailing list >> fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com >> http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board > > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Apr 18 20:30:20 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 02:00:20 +0530 Subject: [fab] Re: Kadischi : Legal issues In-Reply-To: <44453244.70503@redhat.com> References: <13dbfe4f0604180637y26891076vb123bf24ccdea683@mail.gmail.com> <4444EEF1.1090502@redhat.com> <13dbfe4f0604180711o7ad51e72t7a6112d86d610151@mail.gmail.com> <1145374481.2465.242.camel@erato.phig.org> <4445105B.1000307@math.unl.edu> <20060418162211.GA26908@domsch.com> <44453244.70503@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1145392220.349.150.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> On Tue, 2006-04-18 at 14:39 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > This is correct, as I understand it, with one notable caveat: > > > > I believe that you must then pull the Fedora trademarks out. Which is, > > IIRC, pretty straightforward. We may want to present a helpful guide on > > how to do that. > > I believe this is already being documented as part of another project. > Ask Diana Fong - I think she knows the URL. ... or you could ask someone like me who watches all the wiki changes ;-) http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing/Branding Rahul From tchung at fedoraproject.org Tue Apr 18 21:14:27 2006 From: tchung at fedoraproject.org (Thomas Chung) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 14:14:27 -0700 Subject: [fab] tuesday's fedora project board meeting In-Reply-To: References: <1145373713.349.129.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1145375419.2318.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1145375605.349.139.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1145378599.2318.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <369bce3b0604181414t70944c82u1ff19fa37f4b1a7e@mail.gmail.com> On 4/18/06, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > On Tue, 18 Apr 2006, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > > > (BTW: I really would prefer if the Fedora weekly reports were used in > > the Red Hat magazine. Why? I don't like some of the content on > > fedoranews.org much -- but that's another story and I should probably > > talk to tchung about that directly). > > Why not ensure that the Fedora weekly reports are included in > fedoranews.org, and use both? Finally, I caught up with mass amount of emails. :) Very well, here is what I can do for the Project. I will *volunteer* every week to keep up with Fedora Weekly Report [1] and will add it to Fedora Weekly News [2] then submit it to fedora-announce-list. I've already added "The Board" section to report the meeting minutes in the late issue. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Projects/WeeklyReports/2006-04-17 [1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Projects/WeeklyReports/Archive [2] http://fedoranews.org/mediawiki/index.php/Fedora_Weekly_News Regards, -- Thomas Chung http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung From stickster at gmail.com Tue Apr 18 22:12:52 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 18:12:52 -0400 Subject: [fab] Re: fedoranews.org In-Reply-To: <369bce3b0604181047q3a4da5e3pceb553f60fb8f684@mail.gmail.com> References: <369bce3b0604181047q3a4da5e3pceb553f60fb8f684@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1145398372.7519.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2006-04-18 at 10:47 -0700, Thomas Chung wrote: > On 4/18/06, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > > Well, I'd like to ask what purpose we are up to with fedoranews.org. > > What does it do what we can't do at fedoraproject.org? Is it outside of > > the scope from the legal rules of the Fedora Project? > > > > > > > > BTW, the reason why I dislike fedoranews.org are articles like this: > > http://fedoranews.org/mediawiki/index.php/Installing_NVIDIA_drivers_manually_on_FC4 > > > > (that's a improved version -- the first one was even worse). There are a > > lot better ways to install the drivers that are more clean. See > > > > http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Xorg/3rdPartyVideoDrivers > > http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2006-February/msg01178.html > > > > Also it encourages people sometimes to enable repos that are not > > compatible with Core and Extras. > > > > > > > > CU > > thl > > -- > > Thorsten Leemhuis > > Wow. What did I miss here? I just saw this email with subject "fedoranews.org" > > It sounds like someone doesn't like the site just because a few > contributors wrote some articles in the past and not happy about. > > Please note, this is a community website much like community forum > such as fedoraforum.org where people can write *whatever* they like > and yes, sometimes I let them write an article about *forbidden* item > by Fedora Project. > > Again, this is the *past* and now that Fedora Project is considering > "blessing" our site officially, there will be some changes. For one > thing, there will be more "moderations" before the artlces get > published. In other words, a Review Process will be used among > moderators before we publish. > > However, the site will remain the status of "Community" site where any > community member can write just about anything they want if they feel > it will benefit the community. > > If you are concerned about the content of our site, I invite you to > become a moderator and help me to maintain a quality site for Fedora > Community. We should also note that people on the planet aggregator can pretty much write what they please as well. The fact that Thomas is setting up an editorial board is a good thing, and it will hopefully increase the quality of the articles in general. Personally, I'd also love to see a news site free of encumbered software cruft, but that to me is an editorial question. As long as the availability of this information is not a legal problem, it's an issue for the community. As with any news site, I'm pretty sure at fn.o people are free to comment, trackback, etc. (in addition to blogging -- planet anyone?) with suggestions, issues, or complaints. I suspect there will end up being some debate through those channels, and I hope it's conducted in a respectful and reasonable manner. I suspect the reaction of the community will determine what tack is adopted by the fn.o editorial board. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From blizzard at redhat.com Wed Apr 19 02:33:19 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 22:33:19 -0400 Subject: But Why? Re: [fab] Split Fedora-Announce-List In-Reply-To: <1145361222.349.111.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> References: <4443E2B7.40100@redhat.com> <4444A69C.3070601@gtw.net> <1145361222.349.111.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: <4445A16F.8090201@redhat.com> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Ambassadors for example had complaints that general announcements being > mixed with package updates made it much harder for them to track > relevant information. New package updates are the kind of automated, regularized information that RSS feeds were built for. Not mailing lists. --Chri From notting at redhat.com Wed Apr 19 02:52:57 2006 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 22:52:57 -0400 Subject: [fab] project hosting? Message-ID: <20060419025256.GC6302@devserv.devel.redhat.com> So, someone today wanted to move a Fedora-related bit of source to externally available CVS. This was easily enough done; just import it onto cvs.fedora:/cvs/devel, add an ACL, etc. He then asked 'now, what if I want to release tarballs?'. Oops. So, this leads to: what do we want to do for project hosting? - CVS/? - mailing lists? - bug tracking? - web space? How do we tie it together? Do we take the savannah software? Something else? Roll our own? (shudder) This is going to become even more of a need when we decomission i18n.redhat.com and move all of that source... Bill From mspevack at redhat.com Wed Apr 19 04:21:39 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 00:21:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: But Why? Re: [fab] Split Fedora-Announce-List In-Reply-To: <1145361222.349.111.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> References: <4443E2B7.40100@redhat.com> <4444A69C.3070601@gtw.net> <1145361222.349.111.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Apr 2006, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> Have a question and a few comments. Why do we need to do this? Split up >> the Fedora-Announce list? I haven't heard complaints from the general user >> community about there being announcements mixed in with package updates. >> The idea may have merits, might it be a good idea to run this by our peers >> in the Fedora community? > > Ambassadors for example had complaints that general announcements being > mixed with package updates made it much harder for them to track > relevant information. I do like the idea of separating the RPM announcements from more general fedora announcements, like stuff that the board wants to make public. Some sort of global announce list that people are on because they see the high signal/low noise value of it is very useful. Stops us from having to cross-post stuff to multiple lists if we want it to be seen. --Max -- Max Spevack + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/~mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From kwade at redhat.com Wed Apr 19 13:03:34 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 06:03:34 -0700 Subject: [fab] project hosting? In-Reply-To: <20060419025256.GC6302@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <20060419025256.GC6302@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1145451814.25148.24.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2006-04-18 at 22:52 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > So, someone today wanted to move a Fedora-related bit of source > to externally available CVS. This was easily enough done; just > import it onto cvs.fedora:/cvs/devel, add an ACL, etc. > > He then asked 'now, what if I want to release tarballs?'. Oops. Developer Nation is open[1] for anyone who wants to host a project there. They can use it for just the few tools they want, such as housing binary objects and making announcements. If someone has an active project, let's use the tools. I'm looking into Greg's question, which is, "Would we trap Fedora projects in the CollabNet-based Developer Nation?" If the answer is good enough for us to proceed, we could setup devnation.fedoraproject.org and give projects the Fedora association (v. the redhat.com association.) [1] Well, not open _today_ but RSN. > So, this leads to: what do we want to do for project hosting? > > - CVS/? > - mailing lists? > - bug tracking? > - web space? Yeah, Developer Nation has all that. CVS or SVN, take your choice. :) > How do we tie it together? Do we take the savannah software? > Something else? Roll our own? (shudder) Gforge? If we decide that Developer Nation isn't going to fit, then I recommend we put up our own instance of one of these tools. CollabNet is definitely at the forefront on features. As a managed service, it is comprised largely of FLOSS components with CollabNet's own Java wrapped around it. If the vendor lock-in is the concern that stops us using the CollabNet-based instance, perhaps we could still setup under the same Developer Nation banner at devnation.fp.o but with different software. However, the benefit of sharing a platform is much, much more than the sum of the parts. The benefit of a full platform like CollabNet or Gforge is like the difference of a proper CMS over cobbled-together publishing + Wiki. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Editor * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Fedora Documentation Project http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject Learn. Network. Experience open source. Red Hat Summit Nashville | May 30 - June 2, 2006 Learn more: http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Wed Apr 19 13:12:29 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 09:12:29 -0400 Subject: [fab] project hosting? In-Reply-To: <1145451814.25148.24.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <20060419025256.GC6302@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1145451814.25148.24.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1145452350.7526.0.camel@cutter> > However, the benefit of sharing a platform is much, much more than the > sum of the parts. > > The benefit of a full platform like CollabNet or Gforge is like the > difference of a proper CMS over cobbled-together publishing + Wiki. However, for many people who are not fulltime editors or fulltime developers the difference you allude to in the above is non-existent. -sv From cbodell at vasoftware.com Wed Apr 19 13:27:41 2006 From: cbodell at vasoftware.com (Colin Bodell) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 06:27:41 -0700 Subject: [fab] project hosting? In-Reply-To: <20060419025256.GC6302@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <20060419025256.GC6302@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <44463ACD.6030304@vasoftware.com> I'd like to offer a solution for this requirement. VA Software, the company that runs SourceForge.net, Slashdot, Linux.com etc would be happy to host the project on a dedicated instance of SourceForge Enterprise as it's contribution to Fedora. You can see an example of SourceForge Enterprise at https://forge.joomla.org - this site was launched about 7 months ago for the Joomla community. It now has over 22,000 registered users and sees about 250,000 unique visitors a month. The deployment stack is all Open Source: RedHat ES, JBoss, CVS, Subversion, Apache, Postgres etc. Having it part of the extended SourceForge family means we can drive a lot of traffic and provide lots of visibility for the project. (Note: SourceForge Enterprise is about four years ahead of SourceForge.net. If you think you know SourceForge Enterprise because you know SourceForge.net -- you don't. Check it out. You can see it in action running Joomla Forge, or you can sign up to evaluate the app at http://ondemand.sourceforge.com) Col Colin Bodell CTO VA Software Bill Nottingham wrote: >So, someone today wanted to move a Fedora-related bit of source >to externally available CVS. This was easily enough done; just >import it onto cvs.fedora:/cvs/devel, add an ACL, etc. > >He then asked 'now, what if I want to release tarballs?'. Oops. > >So, this leads to: what do we want to do for project hosting? > >- CVS/? >- mailing lists? >- bug tracking? >- web space? > >How do we tie it together? Do we take the savannah software? >Something else? Roll our own? (shudder) > >This is going to become even more of a need when we decomission >i18n.redhat.com and move all of that source... > >Bill > >_______________________________________________ >fedora-advisory-board mailing list >fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board > > From kwade at redhat.com Wed Apr 19 13:29:47 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 06:29:47 -0700 Subject: [fab] project hosting? In-Reply-To: <1145452350.7526.0.camel@cutter> References: <20060419025256.GC6302@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1145451814.25148.24.camel@erato.phig.org> <1145452350.7526.0.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1145453388.25148.37.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2006-04-19 at 09:12 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > > However, the benefit of sharing a platform is much, much more than the > > sum of the parts. > > > > The benefit of a full platform like CollabNet or Gforge is like the > > difference of a proper CMS over cobbled-together publishing + Wiki. > > However, for many people who are not fulltime editors or fulltime > developers the difference you allude to in the above is non-existent. It is the difference between hand-rolling packages from CVS v. having an automated back-end testing and building platform. It is the difference between posting and archiving HTML pages v. using a blog. For Extras, we built our own. Sometimes it makes sense. Other times it's nice not to have to. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Editor * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Fedora Documentation Project http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject Learn. Network. Experience open source. Red Hat Summit Nashville | May 30 - June 2, 2006 Learn more: http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Wed Apr 19 13:37:51 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 09:37:51 -0400 Subject: [fab] project hosting? In-Reply-To: <1145453388.25148.37.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <20060419025256.GC6302@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1145451814.25148.24.camel@erato.phig.org> <1145452350.7526.0.camel@cutter> <1145453388.25148.37.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1145453872.7526.6.camel@cutter> On Wed, 2006-04-19 at 06:29 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > > It is the difference between hand-rolling packages from CVS v. having an > automated back-end testing and building platform. > > It is the difference between posting and archiving HTML pages v. using a > blog. > > For Extras, we built our own. Sometimes it makes sense. Other times > it's nice not to have to. So all those things that distribute power to individuals and remove it from centralized organizations. :) -sv From kwade at redhat.com Wed Apr 19 13:42:48 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 06:42:48 -0700 Subject: [fab] project hosting? In-Reply-To: <1145452350.7526.0.camel@cutter> References: <20060419025256.GC6302@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1145451814.25148.24.camel@erato.phig.org> <1145452350.7526.0.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1145454168.25148.51.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2006-04-19 at 09:12 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > > However, the benefit of sharing a platform is much, much more than the > > sum of the parts. > > > > The benefit of a full platform like CollabNet or Gforge is like the > > difference of a proper CMS over cobbled-together publishing + Wiki. > > However, for many people who are not fulltime editors or fulltime > developers the difference you allude to in the above is non-existent. And now that I've got the glib response out of my system :), let me actually show what I mean: Bootstrapping a New Sub-Project in Fedora ========================================= Current Method -------------- This presumes you know enough players to get things working. The definition of a sub-project is, anything that might need its own Web space, CVS modules, Wiki pages, mailing list, but is under the umbrella of another PMC. Extras SIGs. Cross-group project such as Kadischi. Etc. 1. Get a Fedora account 1.1 Sign CLA 1.2 Request various CVS accesses 2. Get Wiki edit access, create a Wiki page. 3. Ask someone @redhat.com to setup a mailing list for you. 4. Find a project with their own CVS administrators who will host your module(s) for you. Get the module(s) created and do your initial import. 5. Write about it on your blog; get used to that, this is one of your main "announcement" channels. 6. Post announcements to existing lists to attract other people. 7. Reuse the manual wheel of FLOSS development practices within your new project. 8. Walk your project members who need it through the process of steps 1 and 2. All-in-one Collaboration Web App Method --------------------------------------- This could be hosted (SF.net as Colin offered, devnation.redhat.com) or our own instance (Gforge, savannah, etc.). 1. Get an account on the Web app 2. Use the Web app to create your project, request approval. 3. When the project is approved, start committing code. 4. Invite users with existing accounts in the Web app to join. 5. Use your announce at projectname.devnation.fedoraproject.org, then post links to that and details to appropriate, existing Fedora mailing lists. 6. Reuse the automated features designed and built to support FLOSS development practices within your new project. These are fewer steps, sure, but they are also much, much easier. The system walks one through project creation, v. right now where the knowledge is buried on the Wiki and shared again and again between community leaders. My thinking is, yes, it is worth it to have an all-in-one collaboration system. From there, the road is less clear. :) - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Editor * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Fedora Documentation Project http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject Learn. Network. Experience open source. Red Hat Summit Nashville | May 30 - June 2, 2006 Learn more: http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Wed Apr 19 13:50:50 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 09:50:50 -0400 Subject: [fab] project hosting? In-Reply-To: <1145454168.25148.51.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <20060419025256.GC6302@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1145451814.25148.24.camel@erato.phig.org> <1145452350.7526.0.camel@cutter> <1145454168.25148.51.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1145454650.7526.15.camel@cutter> On Wed, 2006-04-19 at 06:42 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Wed, 2006-04-19 at 09:12 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > > > However, the benefit of sharing a platform is much, much more than the > > > sum of the parts. > > > > > > The benefit of a full platform like CollabNet or Gforge is like the > > > difference of a proper CMS over cobbled-together publishing + Wiki. > > > > However, for many people who are not fulltime editors or fulltime > > developers the difference you allude to in the above is non-existent. > > And now that I've got the glib response out of my system :), let me > actually show what I mean: > > Bootstrapping a New Sub-Project in Fedora > ========================================= > > Current Method > -------------- > > This presumes you know enough players to get things working. The > definition of a sub-project is, anything that might need its own Web > space, CVS modules, Wiki pages, mailing list, but is under the umbrella > of another PMC. Extras SIGs. Cross-group project such as Kadischi. > Etc. > > 1. Get a Fedora account > 1.1 Sign CLA > 1.2 Request various CVS accesses > 2. Get Wiki edit access, create a Wiki page. > 3. Ask someone @redhat.com to setup a mailing list for you. > 4. Find a project with their own CVS administrators who will host your > module(s) for you. Get the module(s) created and do your initial > import. > 5. Write about it on your blog; get used to that, this is one of your > main "announcement" channels. > 6. Post announcements to existing lists to attract other people. > 7. Reuse the manual wheel of FLOSS development practices within your new > project. > 8. Walk your project members who need it through the process of steps 1 > and 2. > > All-in-one Collaboration Web App Method > --------------------------------------- > > This could be hosted (SF.net as Colin offered, devnation.redhat.com) or > our own instance (Gforge, savannah, etc.). > > 1. Get an account on the Web app > 2. Use the Web app to create your project, request approval. > 3. When the project is approved, start committing code. > 4. Invite users with existing accounts in the Web app to join. > 5. Use your announce at projectname.devnation.fedoraproject.org, then post > links to that and details to appropriate, existing Fedora mailing lists. > 6. Reuse the automated features designed and built to support FLOSS > development practices within your new project. > > These are fewer steps, sure, but they are also much, much easier. The > system walks one through project creation, v. right now where the > knowledge is buried on the Wiki and shared again and again between > community leaders. > > My thinking is, yes, it is worth it to have an all-in-one collaboration > system. From there, the road is less clear. :) > then let me walk you through a different way: Current model: 1. all the parts you mentioned 2. as a developer be intimately aware of all the moving parts that go on 3. when the system is changed be able to change your practices simply by modifying a few lines of a makefile. All-in-one-model: 1. all the parts you mentioned 2. when the all-in-one system stops being developed or becomes commercial code you become hopelessly lost and left out in the cold b/c you don't know how the pieces work you only know how to press the big web-interface button. 3. be angry b/c your code is overwritten with virus/warez/pr0n b/c there are no more security audits going on of the, now abandoned, all-in-one wonder system. -sv From gdk at redhat.com Wed Apr 19 14:05:14 2006 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 10:05:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] project hosting? In-Reply-To: <20060419025256.GC6302@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <20060419025256.GC6302@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: I think Savannah is the right choice, myself. --g ------------------------------------------------------------- Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Project || fedoraproject.org Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors ------------------------------------------------------------- On Tue, 18 Apr 2006, Bill Nottingham wrote: > So, someone today wanted to move a Fedora-related bit of source > to externally available CVS. This was easily enough done; just > import it onto cvs.fedora:/cvs/devel, add an ACL, etc. > > He then asked 'now, what if I want to release tarballs?'. Oops. > > So, this leads to: what do we want to do for project hosting? > > - CVS/? > - mailing lists? > - bug tracking? > - web space? > > How do we tie it together? Do we take the savannah software? > Something else? Roll our own? (shudder) > > This is going to become even more of a need when we decomission > i18n.redhat.com and move all of that source... > > Bill > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board > From mspevack at redhat.com Wed Apr 19 15:00:44 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 11:00:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] project hosting? In-Reply-To: <20060419025256.GC6302@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <20060419025256.GC6302@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Apr 2006, Bill Nottingham wrote: > How do we tie it together? Do we take the savannah software? > Something else? Roll our own? (shudder) Three options: 1. Savannah 2. DevNation 3. Sourceforge What's the ideal? The fully open solution. What's stopping us. We need to have enough people dedicated to making it happen and maintaining it so that we actually have the infrastructure in place to allow people to host/code new projects. If we can get there, then that's superb, and we've got a fully open solution that we can show to anyone else (like Ubuntu) who doesn't. The realistic decision that must be made is: what's the likely timeframe for getting Savannah deployed and useful for the Fedora community? Is that time/cost worth it, or are we better off using one of the other options in which a lot of the infrastructure is done for us, but the backend isn't entirely open. "Fedora Infrastructure" has a huge amount of stuff swirling around it, and listening to Elliot talk, not nearly enough people who are able to work on all of it. -- Max Spevack + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/~mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Wed Apr 19 15:10:20 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 11:10:20 -0400 Subject: [fab] project hosting? In-Reply-To: References: <20060419025256.GC6302@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1145459420.7526.18.camel@cutter> On Wed, 2006-04-19 at 11:00 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: > The realistic decision that must be made is: what's the likely timeframe > for getting Savannah deployed and useful for the Fedora community? Is > that time/cost worth it, or are we better off using one of the other > options in which a lot of the infrastructure is done for us, but the > backend isn't entirely open. > > "Fedora Infrastructure" has a huge amount of stuff swirling around it, and > listening to Elliot talk, not nearly enough people who are able to work on > all of it. a lot of it is an issue of being able to commit to it. None of the items are a release and walk away sort of thing and EVERYONE is busy. It's rare to find someone who is experienced enough with opensource and/or development infrastructure who doesn't already have all of their time tasked out. It's not like having more people will help. No one wants to bite off a project that they'll have around their necks forever. -sv From laroche at redhat.com Wed Apr 19 15:55:16 2006 From: laroche at redhat.com (Florian La Roche) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 17:55:16 +0200 Subject: [fab] project hosting? In-Reply-To: References: <20060419025256.GC6302@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20060419155516.GA4324@dudweiler.stuttgart.redhat.com> > "Fedora Infrastructure" has a huge amount of stuff swirling around it, and > listening to Elliot talk, not nearly enough people who are able to work on > all of it. We should check if this could be opened up, so that more people can work on infrastructure. I think many more people would contribute if we start to open this up. regards, Florian La Roche From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Wed Apr 19 15:59:13 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 11:59:13 -0400 Subject: [fab] project hosting? In-Reply-To: <20060419155516.GA4324@dudweiler.stuttgart.redhat.com> References: <20060419025256.GC6302@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20060419155516.GA4324@dudweiler.stuttgart.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1145462353.7526.25.camel@cutter> On Wed, 2006-04-19 at 17:55 +0200, Florian La Roche wrote: > > "Fedora Infrastructure" has a huge amount of stuff swirling around it, and > > listening to Elliot talk, not nearly enough people who are able to work on > > all of it. > > We should check if this could be opened up, so that more > people can work on infrastructure. I think many more > people would contribute if we start to open this up. > How is it not open? The projects are all in fedora cvs or in the upstream developer's cvs. -sv From laroche at redhat.com Wed Apr 19 16:09:48 2006 From: laroche at redhat.com (Florian La Roche) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 18:09:48 +0200 Subject: [fab] project hosting? In-Reply-To: <1145462353.7526.25.camel@cutter> References: <20060419025256.GC6302@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20060419155516.GA4324@dudweiler.stuttgart.redhat.com> <1145462353.7526.25.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <20060419160948.GB6077@dudweiler.stuttgart.redhat.com> > How is it not open? > > The projects are all in fedora cvs or in the upstream developer's cvs. I know many people are interested, but don't know if they could also work on this. I know all this is in cvs, so this looks more like a messaging item todo... regards, Florian La Roche From notting at redhat.com Wed Apr 19 16:25:57 2006 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 12:25:57 -0400 Subject: [fab] project hosting? In-Reply-To: <1145451814.25148.24.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <20060419025256.GC6302@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1145451814.25148.24.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <20060419162556.GC32734@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Karsten Wade (kwade at redhat.com) said: > On Tue, 2006-04-18 at 22:52 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > So, someone today wanted to move a Fedora-related bit of source > > to externally available CVS. This was easily enough done; just > > import it onto cvs.fedora:/cvs/devel, add an ACL, etc. > > > > He then asked 'now, what if I want to release tarballs?'. Oops. > > Developer Nation is open[1] for anyone who wants to host a project > there. They can use it for just the few tools they want, such as > housing binary objects and making announcements. If someone has an > active project, let's use the tools. > > I'm looking into Greg's question, which is, "Would we trap Fedora > projects in the CollabNet-based Developer Nation?" If the answer is > good enough for us to proceed, we could setup > devnation.fedoraproject.org and give projects the Fedora association (v. > the redhat.com association.) So, does devnation integrate with the Fedora account system? I'd hate to go down the 'another account' road. Bill From notting at redhat.com Wed Apr 19 16:31:05 2006 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 12:31:05 -0400 Subject: [fab] project hosting? In-Reply-To: <1145451814.25148.24.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <20060419025256.GC6302@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1145451814.25148.24.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <20060419163105.GD32734@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Karsten Wade (kwade at redhat.com) said: > On Tue, 2006-04-18 at 22:52 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Developer Nation is open[1] for anyone who wants to host a project > there. They can use it for just the few tools they want, such as > housing binary objects and making announcements. If someone has an > active project, let's use the tools. > > I'm looking into Greg's question, which is, "Would we trap Fedora > projects in the CollabNet-based Developer Nation?" If the answer is > good enough for us to proceed, we could setup > devnation.fedoraproject.org and give projects the Fedora association (v. > the redhat.com association.) > > [1] Well, not open _today_ but RSN. > > > So, this leads to: what do we want to do for project hosting? > > > > - CVS/? > > - mailing lists? > > - bug tracking? > > - web space? > > Yeah, Developer Nation has all that. CVS or SVN, take your choice. :) So, how does this work with: a) the people that want git/hg/I-wrote-my-own-SCM-instead-of-an-IRC-client? b) the translation project, where you have a group of *thousands* that needs to check out, lock, and commit to specific files under other projects? Bill From fedora at leemhuis.info Wed Apr 19 16:53:50 2006 From: fedora at leemhuis.info (Thorsten Leemhuis) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 18:53:50 +0200 Subject: [fab] Re: fedoranews.org In-Reply-To: <369bce3b0604181047q3a4da5e3pceb553f60fb8f684@mail.gmail.com> References: <369bce3b0604181047q3a4da5e3pceb553f60fb8f684@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1145465630.2338.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> Am Dienstag, den 18.04.2006, 10:47 -0700 schrieb Thomas Chung: > On 4/18/06, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > > Well, I'd like to ask what purpose we are up to with fedoranews.org. > > What does it do what we can't do at fedoraproject.org? Is it outside of > > the scope from the legal rules of the Fedora Project? > > > > > > > > BTW, the reason why I dislike fedoranews.org are articles like this: > > http://fedoranews.org/mediawiki/index.php/Installing_NVIDIA_drivers_manually_on_FC4 > > > > (that's a improved version -- the first one was even worse). There are a > > lot better ways to install the drivers that are more clean. See > > > > http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Xorg/3rdPartyVideoDrivers > > http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2006-February/msg01178.html > > > > Also it encourages people sometimes to enable repos that are not > > compatible with Core and Extras. > > > > > > > Wow. What did I miss here? I just saw this email with subject "fedoranews.org" No, I think this one was the most important for you. > It sounds like someone /me > doesn't like the site just because a few > contributors wrote some articles in the past and not happy about. yes > Please note, this is a community website much like community forum > such as fedoraforum.org where people can write *whatever* they like That's okay -- but I have problems if that goes directly into the Red Hat magazine. > and yes, sometimes I let them write an article about *forbidden* item > by Fedora Project. "*forbidden* item by Fedora Project." is not my problem -- but there are better ways to install the nvidia drivers and most of us know that repo mixing is problematic. That's what I don't like. To extend above disclaimer: I'm not only involved in Fedora Extras but also working a lot for a well known 3rd party repo that extends Fedora Core/Extras and provides the Nvidia drivers. > Again, this is the *past* and now that Fedora Project is considering > "blessing" our site officially, there will be some changes. For one > thing, there will be more "moderations" before the artlces get > published. In other words, a Review Process will be used among > moderators before we publish. Okay. > However, the site will remain the status of "Community" site where any > community member can write just about anything they want if they feel > it will benefit the community. > > If you are concerned about the content of our site, I invite you to > become a moderator and help me to maintain a quality site for Fedora > Community. Well, I can try to do that. I'll write a private mail with some things that probably need to be discussed first -- this is going off topic here. CU thl -- Thorsten Leemhuis From cbodell at vasoftware.com Wed Apr 19 17:55:58 2006 From: cbodell at vasoftware.com (Colin Bodell) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 10:55:58 -0700 Subject: [fab] project hosting? In-Reply-To: References: <20060419025256.GC6302@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <444679AE.7000503@vasoftware.com> Why's that Greg? If we provide a SourceForge instance to Fedora you can customize it to meet your needs, you'll have site admin access (i.e. complete control over the site) hardware and network will be managed by the team that looks after SourceForge.net 24x7, access to the SourceForge mirrors around the world and you'll get the visibility and community support from the largest open source nexus on the planet :-) Would be useful if there were a list of requirements for hosting Fedora then all of the candidates could respond with what they can and can't do for Fedora. Col Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: >I think Savannah is the right choice, myself. > >--g > >------------------------------------------------------------- >Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Project || fedoraproject.org >Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors >------------------------------------------------------------- > >On Tue, 18 Apr 2006, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > > >>So, someone today wanted to move a Fedora-related bit of source >>to externally available CVS. This was easily enough done; just >>import it onto cvs.fedora:/cvs/devel, add an ACL, etc. >> >>He then asked 'now, what if I want to release tarballs?'. Oops. >> >>So, this leads to: what do we want to do for project hosting? >> >>- CVS/? >>- mailing lists? >>- bug tracking? >>- web space? >> >>How do we tie it together? Do we take the savannah software? >>Something else? Roll our own? (shudder) >> >>This is going to become even more of a need when we decomission >>i18n.redhat.com and move all of that source... >> >>Bill >> >>_______________________________________________ >>fedora-advisory-board mailing list >>fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com >>http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board >> >> >> > >_______________________________________________ >fedora-advisory-board mailing list >fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board > > From cbodell at vasoftware.com Wed Apr 19 18:00:15 2006 From: cbodell at vasoftware.com (Colin Bodell) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 11:00:15 -0700 Subject: [fab] project hosting? In-Reply-To: References: <20060419025256.GC6302@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <44467AAF.30308@vasoftware.com> If you do select SourceForge we'll run the hardware and network for the community as our contribution. The Fedora team will have 100% control over the site. I'm actually leaving VA Software this Friday, moving up to Seattle as VP Platform Operations for Amazon.com. I'd be happy to admin the site and look after site ops etc independent from VA Software. Thoughts? Col Colin Bodell CTO VA Software Soon to be VP Platform Operations at Amazon.com Max Spevack wrote: > On Tue, 18 Apr 2006, Bill Nottingham wrote: > >> How do we tie it together? Do we take the savannah software? >> Something else? Roll our own? (shudder) > > > Three options: > 1. Savannah > 2. DevNation > 3. Sourceforge > > What's the ideal? The fully open solution. What's stopping us. We > need to have enough people dedicated to making it happen and > maintaining it so that we actually have the infrastructure in place to > allow people to host/code new projects. If we can get there, then > that's superb, and we've got a fully open solution that we can show to > anyone else (like Ubuntu) who doesn't. > > The realistic decision that must be made is: what's the likely > timeframe for getting Savannah deployed and useful for the Fedora > community? Is that time/cost worth it, or are we better off using one > of the other options in which a lot of the infrastructure is done for > us, but the backend isn't entirely open. > > "Fedora Infrastructure" has a huge amount of stuff swirling around it, > and listening to Elliot talk, not nearly enough people who are able to > work on all of it. > From jkeating at redhat.com Wed Apr 19 18:00:38 2006 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 14:00:38 -0400 Subject: [fab] project hosting? In-Reply-To: <444679AE.7000503@vasoftware.com> References: <20060419025256.GC6302@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <444679AE.7000503@vasoftware.com> Message-ID: <1145469638.13331.4.camel@ender> On Wed, 2006-04-19 at 10:55 -0700, Colin Bodell wrote: > If we provide a SourceForge instance Would the software that provides this instance be open source? -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From cbodell at vasoftware.com Wed Apr 19 19:04:14 2006 From: cbodell at vasoftware.com (Colin Bodell) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 12:04:14 -0700 Subject: [fab] project hosting? In-Reply-To: <1145469638.13331.4.camel@ender> References: <20060419025256.GC6302@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <444679AE.7000503@vasoftware.com> <1145469638.13331.4.camel@ender> Message-ID: <444689AE.6010607@vasoftware.com> SourceForge Enterprise Edition is (today) proprietary. Col Jesse Keating wrote: >On Wed, 2006-04-19 at 10:55 -0700, Colin Bodell wrote: > > >>If we provide a SourceForge instance >> >> > >Would the software that provides this instance be open source? > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >fedora-advisory-board mailing list >fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board > > From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Wed Apr 19 19:08:14 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 15:08:14 -0400 Subject: [fab] project hosting? In-Reply-To: <444689AE.6010607@vasoftware.com> References: <20060419025256.GC6302@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <444679AE.7000503@vasoftware.com> <1145469638.13331.4.camel@ender> <444689AE.6010607@vasoftware.com> Message-ID: <1145473694.7526.34.camel@cutter> On Wed, 2006-04-19 at 12:04 -0700, Colin Bodell wrote: > SourceForge Enterprise Edition is (today) proprietary. > and should, therefore, be avoided. In the same way we ducked bitkeeper when we were originally looking at SCMs -sv From cbodell at vasoftware.com Wed Apr 19 19:34:42 2006 From: cbodell at vasoftware.com (Colin Bodell) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 12:34:42 -0700 Subject: [fab] project hosting? In-Reply-To: <1145473694.7526.34.camel@cutter> References: <20060419025256.GC6302@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <444679AE.7000503@vasoftware.com> <1145469638.13331.4.camel@ender> <444689AE.6010607@vasoftware.com> <1145473694.7526.34.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <444690D2.1090402@vasoftware.com> Why should it be avoided? SourceForge.net is not open source yet delivers a tremendous service to the community. We should focus on capability and community value. You get a no cost, turnkey, hosted system with admin, backup network that you can configure the meet the needs of the Fedora community etc. That's not a bad deal in my book. Compare SourceForge Enterprise against, say, Savannah (except there is not much of a comparison). I'd be happy to admin it for the community too :-) Col seth vidal wrote: >On Wed, 2006-04-19 at 12:04 -0700, Colin Bodell wrote: > > >>SourceForge Enterprise Edition is (today) proprietary. >> >> >> > >and should, therefore, be avoided. > >In the same way we ducked bitkeeper when we were originally looking at >SCMs > > >-sv > > >_______________________________________________ >fedora-advisory-board mailing list >fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board > > From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Wed Apr 19 19:40:04 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 15:40:04 -0400 Subject: [fab] project hosting? In-Reply-To: <444690D2.1090402@vasoftware.com> References: <20060419025256.GC6302@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <444679AE.7000503@vasoftware.com> <1145469638.13331.4.camel@ender> <444689AE.6010607@vasoftware.com> <1145473694.7526.34.camel@cutter> <444690D2.1090402@vasoftware.com> Message-ID: <1145475604.7526.37.camel@cutter> On Wed, 2006-04-19 at 12:34 -0700, Colin Bodell wrote: > Why should it be avoided? SourceForge.net is not open source yet > delivers a tremendous service to the community. > We should focus on capability and community value. You get a no cost, > turnkey, hosted system with admin, backup network that you > can configure the meet the needs of the Fedora community etc. That's not > a bad deal in my book. Compare SourceForge Enterprise > against, say, Savannah (except there is not much of a comparison). I'd > be happy to admin it for the community too :-) Okay, I'll say what I bet a lot of red hat folks don't want to say for various political reasons. I, speaking only for myself, am uncomfortable relying on vasoftware or sourceforge for anything. It being closed source is just ANOTHER nail in the coffin of using sourceforge enterprise, imo. -sv From jkeating at redhat.com Wed Apr 19 19:45:20 2006 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 15:45:20 -0400 Subject: [fab] project hosting? In-Reply-To: <444690D2.1090402@vasoftware.com> References: <20060419025256.GC6302@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <444679AE.7000503@vasoftware.com> <1145469638.13331.4.camel@ender> <444689AE.6010607@vasoftware.com> <1145473694.7526.34.camel@cutter> <444690D2.1090402@vasoftware.com> Message-ID: <1145475920.13331.7.camel@ender> On Wed, 2006-04-19 at 12:34 -0700, Colin Bodell wrote: > Why should it be avoided? SourceForge.net is not open source yet > delivers a tremendous service to the community. > We should focus on capability and community value. You get a no cost, > turnkey, hosted system with admin, backup network that you > can configure the meet the needs of the Fedora community etc. That's > not > a bad deal in my book. Compare SourceForge Enterprise > against, say, Savannah (except there is not much of a comparison). > I'd > be happy to admin it for the community too :-) Because of Fedora's goals of being once open, always open. Anything Fedora should be built up from OpenSource software. This includes the software that Red Hat users to put it together, there is something of a push to open that software too. (note that I'm speaking as a person, NOT RED HAT) Using proprietary software to facilitate the project is a nonstarter IMHO. -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From cbodell at vasoftware.com Wed Apr 19 19:50:27 2006 From: cbodell at vasoftware.com (Colin Bodell) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 12:50:27 -0700 Subject: [fab] project hosting? In-Reply-To: <1145475920.13331.7.camel@ender> References: <20060419025256.GC6302@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <444679AE.7000503@vasoftware.com> <1145469638.13331.4.camel@ender> <444689AE.6010607@vasoftware.com> <1145473694.7526.34.camel@cutter> <444690D2.1090402@vasoftware.com> <1145475920.13331.7.camel@ender> Message-ID: <44469483.1080501@vasoftware.com> Understood. I would hope the cost factor would somewhat mitigate this position ;-) Who makes the final call on this? Col Jesse Keating wrote: >On Wed, 2006-04-19 at 12:34 -0700, Colin Bodell wrote: > > >>Why should it be avoided? SourceForge.net is not open source yet >>delivers a tremendous service to the community. >>We should focus on capability and community value. You get a no cost, >>turnkey, hosted system with admin, backup network that you >>can configure the meet the needs of the Fedora community etc. That's >>not >>a bad deal in my book. Compare SourceForge Enterprise >>against, say, Savannah (except there is not much of a comparison). >>I'd >>be happy to admin it for the community too :-) >> >> > >Because of Fedora's goals of being once open, always open. Anything >Fedora should be built up from OpenSource software. This includes the >software that Red Hat users to put it together, there is something of a >push to open that software too. (note that I'm speaking as a person, >NOT RED HAT) Using proprietary software to facilitate the project is a >nonstarter IMHO. > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >fedora-advisory-board mailing list >fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board > > From cbodell at vasoftware.com Wed Apr 19 19:53:29 2006 From: cbodell at vasoftware.com (Colin Bodell) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 12:53:29 -0700 Subject: [fab] project hosting? In-Reply-To: <1145475604.7526.37.camel@cutter> References: <20060419025256.GC6302@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <444679AE.7000503@vasoftware.com> <1145469638.13331.4.camel@ender> <444689AE.6010607@vasoftware.com> <1145473694.7526.34.camel@cutter> <444690D2.1090402@vasoftware.com> <1145475604.7526.37.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <44469539.3060908@vasoftware.com> Why would you not want to rely on VA Software or SourceForge for anything? We're quite happy relying on RedHat for Linux distro's. There is quite a number of Redhat staff hat have accounts on SourceForge and use it frequently, that read Slashdot daily etc etc. Col seth vidal wrote: >On Wed, 2006-04-19 at 12:34 -0700, Colin Bodell wrote: > > >>Why should it be avoided? SourceForge.net is not open source yet >>delivers a tremendous service to the community. >>We should focus on capability and community value. You get a no cost, >>turnkey, hosted system with admin, backup network that you >>can configure the meet the needs of the Fedora community etc. That's not >>a bad deal in my book. Compare SourceForge Enterprise >>against, say, Savannah (except there is not much of a comparison). I'd >>be happy to admin it for the community too :-) >> >> > >Okay, > I'll say what I bet a lot of red hat folks don't want to say for >various political reasons. > >I, speaking only for myself, am uncomfortable relying on vasoftware or >sourceforge for anything. > >It being closed source is just ANOTHER nail in the coffin of using >sourceforge enterprise, imo. > >-sv > > >_______________________________________________ >fedora-advisory-board mailing list >fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board > > From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Wed Apr 19 19:56:34 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 15:56:34 -0400 Subject: [fab] project hosting? In-Reply-To: <44469483.1080501@vasoftware.com> References: <20060419025256.GC6302@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <444679AE.7000503@vasoftware.com> <1145469638.13331.4.camel@ender> <444689AE.6010607@vasoftware.com> <1145473694.7526.34.camel@cutter> <444690D2.1090402@vasoftware.com> <1145475920.13331.7.camel@ender> <44469483.1080501@vasoftware.com> Message-ID: <1145476595.7526.39.camel@cutter> On Wed, 2006-04-19 at 12:50 -0700, Colin Bodell wrote: > Understood. I would hope the cost factor would somewhat mitigate this > position ;-) > Who makes the final call on this? Cost isn't the issue. Freedom is. There are some of us who still believe in open source b/c of freedom. -sv From gdk at redhat.com Wed Apr 19 19:57:28 2006 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 15:57:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] project hosting? In-Reply-To: <44469483.1080501@vasoftware.com> References: <20060419025256.GC6302@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <444679AE.7000503@vasoftware.com> <1145469638.13331.4.camel@ender> <444689AE.6010607@vasoftware.com> <1145473694.7526.34.camel@cutter> <444690D2.1090402@vasoftware.com> <1145475920.13331.7.camel@ender> <44469483.1080501@vasoftware.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Apr 2006, Colin Bodell wrote: > Understood. I would hope the cost factor would somewhat mitigate this > position ;-) > Who makes the final call on this? > > Col The Fedora project board: Max Spevack Seth Vidal Paul W. Frields Rex Dieter Elliot Lee Bill Nottingham Chris Blizzard Jeremy Katz Rahul Sundaram (+1 mystery man to be named soon) --g ------------------------------------------------------------- Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Project || fedoraproject.org Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors ------------------------------------------------------------- From kwade at redhat.com Wed Apr 19 20:52:18 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 13:52:18 -0700 Subject: [fab] project hosting? In-Reply-To: <20060419163105.GD32734@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <20060419025256.GC6302@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1145451814.25148.24.camel@erato.phig.org> <20060419163105.GD32734@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1145479939.25148.92.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2006-04-19 at 12:31 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > So, how does this work with: > a) the people that want git/hg/I-wrote-my-own-SCM-instead-of-an-IRC-client? Where we can't provide SCM, guess it would have to be external hosting. We already have this with projects and established mailing lists, we probably don't want to say to move if it's not needed. We lose some functionality but gain others. > b) the translation project, where you have a group of *thousands* that > needs to check out, lock, and commit to specific files under other > projects? Separate critter. They have a working Web app that Elliot is looking at migrating. It needs to live on the same machine that houses the SCM (CVS), at least as it is written. We can look at replacing it later, if we want to. But we do need to get Translation in cvs.fedora so we can have them translate docs using the Web app. But Translation project members could have accounts in a collaboration app for other purposes, if they want/need. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Editor * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Fedora Documentation Project http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject Learn. Network. Experience open source. Red Hat Summit Nashville | May 30 - June 2, 2006 Learn more: http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Apr 19 20:53:31 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 13:53:31 -0700 Subject: [fab] project hosting? In-Reply-To: <20060419162556.GC32734@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <20060419025256.GC6302@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1145451814.25148.24.camel@erato.phig.org> <20060419162556.GC32734@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1145480012.25148.94.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2006-04-19 at 12:25 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > So, does devnation integrate with the Fedora account system? I'd > hate to go down the 'another account' road. Close. It is going to use shared authentication with the longer-existing redhat.com account system. I.e., what you use for RHN etc. Right now the shared auth is not yet available, so I'm confirming one-to-one sync with new accounts and existing redhat.com accounts. - Karsten, who _loves_ release early, release often -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Editor * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Fedora Documentation Project http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject Learn. Network. Experience open source. Red Hat Summit Nashville | May 30 - June 2, 2006 Learn more: http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Apr 19 21:01:01 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 14:01:01 -0700 Subject: [fab] project hosting? In-Reply-To: <1145454650.7526.15.camel@cutter> References: <20060419025256.GC6302@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1145451814.25148.24.camel@erato.phig.org> <1145452350.7526.0.camel@cutter> <1145454168.25148.51.camel@erato.phig.org> <1145454650.7526.15.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1145480462.25148.102.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2006-04-19 at 09:50 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > then let me walk you through a different way: > > Current model: > 1. all the parts you mentioned > 2. as a developer be intimately aware of all the moving parts that go on > 3. when the system is changed be able to change your practices simply by > modifying a few lines of a makefile. Just note that this system is _very_ intimidating to many potential contributors. I'd posit it is more intimidates more than it excites, in terms of new people. So, the purpose is as much to attract and facilitate new contributors, and ideally does not freak with the lives of existing contributors. :) > All-in-one-model: > 1. all the parts you mentioned > 2. when the all-in-one system stops being developed or becomes > commercial code you become hopelessly lost and left out in the cold b/c > you don't know how the pieces work you only know how to press the big > web-interface button. > 3. be angry b/c your code is overwritten with virus/warez/pr0n b/c there > are no more security audits going on of the, now abandoned, all-in-one > wonder system. I share your concerns. Personally, I want to see a blended model, with different interfaces into existing systems. Perhaps that's easier if we host our own e.g. Gforge the way we host our own Wiki and CMS. Because I'm personally in charge of our Developer Nation collaboration portal, I'm in a unique position to set governance from the start that guarantees that free == free forevermore. FWIW, I was working at VA Linux Systems when SourceForge was forked and closed, and have long held concern about enclosing projects in hosted scenarios that have other motives they perceive as being higher than FLOSS. If, after some due research, this group feels that CollabNet also should not be trusted for the same risk, then my recommendation shifts over to hosting our own from a trusted FLOSS source such as savannah or gforge. If/when that happens, I'll be there to lend my recent experiences and skills. :) - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Editor * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Fedora Documentation Project http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject Learn. Network. Experience open source. Red Hat Summit Nashville | May 30 - June 2, 2006 Learn more: http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Apr 19 21:08:56 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 14:08:56 -0700 Subject: [fab] project hosting? In-Reply-To: <1145459420.7526.18.camel@cutter> References: <20060419025256.GC6302@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1145459420.7526.18.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1145480936.25148.107.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2006-04-19 at 11:10 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > On Wed, 2006-04-19 at 11:00 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: > > > The realistic decision that must be made is: what's the likely timeframe > > for getting Savannah deployed and useful for the Fedora community? Is > > that time/cost worth it, or are we better off using one of the other > > options in which a lot of the infrastructure is done for us, but the > > backend isn't entirely open. > > > > "Fedora Infrastructure" has a huge amount of stuff swirling around it, and > > listening to Elliot talk, not nearly enough people who are able to work on > > all of it. > > a lot of it is an issue of being able to commit to it. None of the items > are a release and walk away sort of thing and EVERYONE is busy. It's > rare to find someone who is experienced enough with opensource and/or > development infrastructure who doesn't already have all of their time > tasked out. > > It's not like having more people will help. No one wants to bite off a > project that they'll have around their necks forever. FWIW, I'll fully withdraw my proposal to use devnation.redhat.com, despite obvious tie-ins with other work at Red Hat and with the same pool of developers. However ... Right now what choice to Fedora contributors have? Nothing more than begging on mailing lists or knowing the right people. It's like using people.redhat.com for a yum repo for custom packages. Talk about a high barrier to entry. "1. Get hired by Red Hat ..." So, if we can wait until we can get up our own solution, cool. If not ... people are already hosting projects on SF.net because they have nowhere else to go. I am offering that alternative in devnation.redhat.com, not even as a primary mission but as a side-effect, and to avoid that bleed-off. I'd _love_ to see devnation.fedoraproject.org running 100% FLOSS. What is the right first steps to get there? - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Editor * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Fedora Documentation Project http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject Learn. Network. Experience open source. Red Hat Summit Nashville | May 30 - June 2, 2006 Learn more: http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Thu Apr 20 02:56:00 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 22:56:00 -0400 Subject: [fab] project hosting? In-Reply-To: <1145475920.13331.7.camel@ender> References: <20060419025256.GC6302@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <444679AE.7000503@vasoftware.com> <1145469638.13331.4.camel@ender> <444689AE.6010607@vasoftware.com> <1145473694.7526.34.camel@cutter> <444690D2.1090402@vasoftware.com> <1145475920.13331.7.camel@ender> Message-ID: <1145501760.2659.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2006-04-19 at 15:45 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Wed, 2006-04-19 at 12:34 -0700, Colin Bodell wrote: > > Why should it be avoided? SourceForge.net is not open source yet > > delivers a tremendous service to the community. > > We should focus on capability and community value. You get a no cost, > > turnkey, hosted system with admin, backup network that you > > can configure the meet the needs of the Fedora community etc. That's > > not > > a bad deal in my book. Compare SourceForge Enterprise > > against, say, Savannah (except there is not much of a comparison). > > I'd > > be happy to admin it for the community too :-) > > Because of Fedora's goals of being once open, always open. Anything > Fedora should be built up from OpenSource software. This includes the > software that Red Hat users to put it together, there is something of a > push to open that software too. (note that I'm speaking as a person, > NOT RED HAT) Using proprietary software to facilitate the project is a > nonstarter IMHO. If I was the kind of person to say "+1," I'd do it here. The goal of the project is to advance open source software. Relying on proprietary software to run project bits runs counter to the goal, therefore my vote is against proprietary. Your offer is appreciated, Colin. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From nman64 at n-man.com Thu Apr 20 06:59:18 2006 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick W. Barnes) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 01:59:18 -0500 Subject: [fab] Google's Summer of Code 2006 In-Reply-To: <200604171259.15568.nman64@n-man.com> References: <200604151812.00088.nman64@n-man.com> <1145291859.349.67.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <200604171259.15568.nman64@n-man.com> Message-ID: <200604200159.21073.nman64@n-man.com> On Monday 17 April 2006 12:59, "Patrick W. Barnes" wrote: > > So, do we give Chris our official go-ahead? :-) > Google has changed their closing date for applications from mentoring organizations: http://google-code-updates.blogspot.com/2006/04/too-much-of-good-thing.html Still, we shouldn't wait until the last possible moment. Are there any specific objections to our participation? Who'll give them the final nod of approval? We're obviously welcome. Greg and I have each talked to Chris DiBona, and Leslie Hawthorn has emailed Elliot and talked to me on IRC. We've also had a few students ask if we'll be participating this year. I'd sure hate to disappoint them. ;-) -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com http://www.n-man.com/ Have I been helpful? Rate my assistance! http://rate.affero.net/nman64/ -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Apr 20 12:01:47 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 17:31:47 +0530 Subject: [fab] project hosting? In-Reply-To: References: <20060419025256.GC6302@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <444679AE.7000503@vasoftware.com> <1145469638.13331.4.camel@ender> <444689AE.6010607@vasoftware.com> <1145473694.7526.34.camel@cutter> <444690D2.1090402@vasoftware.com> <1145475920.13331.7.camel@ender> <44469483.1080501@vasoftware.com> Message-ID: <1145534507.18551.79.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> On Wed, 2006-04-19 at 15:57 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > On Wed, 19 Apr 2006, Colin Bodell wrote: > > > Understood. I would hope the cost factor would somewhat mitigate this > > position ;-) > > Who makes the final call on this? > > Its a nice offer but we are not going to rely on proprietary infrastructure for Fedora regardless of the cost factor. Rahul From rdieter at math.unl.edu Thu Apr 20 13:52:54 2006 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 08:52:54 -0500 Subject: [fab] project hosting? In-Reply-To: <1145534507.18551.79.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> References: <20060419025256.GC6302@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <444679AE.7000503@vasoftware.com> <1145469638.13331.4.camel@ender> <444689AE.6010607@vasoftware.com> <1145473694.7526.34.camel@cutter> <444690D2.1090402@vasoftware.com> <1145475920.13331.7.camel@ender> <44469483.1080501@vasoftware.com> <1145534507.18551.79.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: <44479236.2020104@math.unl.edu> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Its a nice offer but we are not going to rely on proprietary > infrastructure for Fedora regardless of the cost factor. I don't think it wise for the board to discount sf's offer out-of-hand without at least exploring the true viability of open-source alternatives. Now, how much time/effort/resources will be involved in implementing our own project hosting (using savanna or whatever)? I don't think we should decide for or against *any* solution until this question is answered. If it comes down to either using sourceforge or nothing (for the foreseeable future, because of limited resources), well, I think doing nothing would be just plain silly. -- Rex From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Apr 20 13:46:27 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 19:16:27 +0530 Subject: [fab] project hosting? In-Reply-To: <44479236.2020104@math.unl.edu> References: <20060419025256.GC6302@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <444679AE.7000503@vasoftware.com> <1145469638.13331.4.camel@ender> <444689AE.6010607@vasoftware.com> <1145473694.7526.34.camel@cutter> <444690D2.1090402@vasoftware.com> <1145475920.13331.7.camel@ender> <44469483.1080501@vasoftware.com> <1145534507.18551.79.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <44479236.2020104@math.unl.edu> Message-ID: <1145540787.18551.99.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 08:52 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote: > Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > Its a nice offer but we are not going to rely on proprietary > > infrastructure for Fedora regardless of the cost factor. > > I don't think it wise for the board to discount sf's offer out-of-hand > without at least exploring the true viability of open-source > alternatives. Now, how much time/effort/resources will be involved in > implementing our own project hosting (using savanna or whatever)? I > don't think we should decide for or against *any* solution until this > question is answered. > If it comes down to either using sourceforge or nothing (for the > foreseeable future, because of limited resources), well, I think doing > nothing would be just plain silly. In Fedora, if the choice is between proprietary infrastructure and nothing, we can very well choose nothing. There is nothing silly about sticking to the ideals of the project. Rahul From rdieter at math.unl.edu Thu Apr 20 14:46:28 2006 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 09:46:28 -0500 Subject: [fab] project hosting? In-Reply-To: <1145540787.18551.99.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> References: <20060419025256.GC6302@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <444679AE.7000503@vasoftware.com> <1145469638.13331.4.camel@ender> <444689AE.6010607@vasoftware.com> <1145473694.7526.34.camel@cutter> <444690D2.1090402@vasoftware.com> <1145475920.13331.7.camel@ender> <44469483.1080501@vasoftware.com> <1145534507.18551.79.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <44479236.2020104@math.unl.edu> <1145540787.18551.99.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: <44479EC4.1080608@math.unl.edu> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > In Fedora, if the choice is between proprietary infrastructure and > nothing, we can very well choose nothing. There is nothing silly about > sticking to the ideals of the project. The open-source "ideal" of the project, as far as I see it, applies only to what is included-in/released-by Fedora (Core/Extras) (*). I agree it certainly is appealing to be able to apply this same ideal to the project entirely (ie, including internal project infrastructure), but my opinion is that in this case, the cost is just too high. I had thought that it was a given that the fedora project absolutely *needed* project hosting. We have to weigh this need (and possibly not satisfying it with an open-source solution) against the cost of upholding your theoretical ideal. Now don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that we should use sourceforge. I'm saying that I think it is too early to say that we should not. -- Rex (*) After a quick scan of both fedora.redhat.com and fedoraproject.org, I couldn't find any definition of Fedora's ideals/goals (I'm sure it's there somewhere). I'll be perfectly happy to shut up if a definitive definition of Fedora and it's goals/ideals exists, that says these ideals apply to Fedora infrastructure as well. From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Apr 20 14:43:35 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 20:13:35 +0530 Subject: [fab] project hosting? In-Reply-To: <44479EC4.1080608@math.unl.edu> References: <20060419025256.GC6302@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <444679AE.7000503@vasoftware.com> <1145469638.13331.4.camel@ender> <444689AE.6010607@vasoftware.com> <1145473694.7526.34.camel@cutter> <444690D2.1090402@vasoftware.com> <1145475920.13331.7.camel@ender> <44469483.1080501@vasoftware.com> <1145534507.18551.79.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <44479236.2020104@math.unl.edu> <1145540787.18551.99.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <44479EC4.1080608@math.unl.edu> Message-ID: <1145544216.18551.105.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 09:46 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote: > Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > In Fedora, if the choice is between proprietary infrastructure and > > nothing, we can very well choose nothing. There is nothing silly about > > sticking to the ideals of the project. > > The open-source "ideal" of the project, as far as I see it, applies only > to what is included-in/released-by Fedora (Core/Extras) (*). I agree it > certainly is appealing to be able to apply this same ideal to the > project entirely (ie, including internal project infrastructure), but my > opinion is that in this case, the cost is just too high. > > I had thought that it was a given that the fedora project absolutely > *needed* project hosting. We have to weigh this need (and possibly not > satisfying it with an open-source solution) against the cost of > upholding your theoretical ideal. It is far from clear to me why Fedora needs to provide its own infrastructure for itself rather than just use something like Savannah. > > Now don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that we should use sourceforge. > I'm saying that I think it is too early to say that we should not. > > -- Rex > > (*) After a quick scan of both fedora.redhat.com and fedoraproject.org, > I couldn't find any definition of Fedora's ideals/goals (I'm sure it's > there somewhere). I'll be perfectly happy to shut up if a definitive > definition of Fedora and it's goals/ideals exists, that says these > ideals apply to Fedora infrastructure as well. That is what we are trying to define here I believe. You think the ideals of providing a Free and open source system doesnt apply to its infrastructure. I think it absolutely does. When we reach consensus we can write it down somewhere and call it definitive. Rahul From rdieter at math.unl.edu Thu Apr 20 15:08:30 2006 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 10:08:30 -0500 Subject: [fab] project hosting? In-Reply-To: <1145544216.18551.105.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> References: <20060419025256.GC6302@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <444679AE.7000503@vasoftware.com> <1145469638.13331.4.camel@ender> <444689AE.6010607@vasoftware.com> <1145473694.7526.34.camel@cutter> <444690D2.1090402@vasoftware.com> <1145475920.13331.7.camel@ender> <44469483.1080501@vasoftware.com> <1145534507.18551.79.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <44479236.2020104@math.unl.edu> <1145540787.18551.99.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <44479EC4.1080608@math.unl.edu> <1145544216.18551.105.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: <4447A3EE.5010502@math.unl.edu> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 09:46 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote: >> I had thought that it was a given that the fedora project absolutely >> *needed* project hosting. We have to weigh this need (and possibly not >> satisfying it with an open-source solution) against the cost of >> upholding your theoretical ideal. > > It is far from clear to me why Fedora needs to provide its own > infrastructure for itself rather than just use something like Savannah. Single sign-on (with the rest of fedoraproject.org bits) would be nice, but I suppose it's not a deal-breaker. I can live with hosting stuff at savannah.gnu.org (or savannah.nongnu.org) too. Ideally, we could host it ourselves (gna.org/projects/savane), but then we get into the time/energy/resources problem again. >> (*) After a quick scan of both fedora.redhat.com and fedoraproject.org, >> I couldn't find any definition of Fedora's ideals/goals (I'm sure it's >> there somewhere). I'll be perfectly happy to shut up if a definitive >> definition of Fedora and it's goals/ideals exists, that says these >> ideals apply to Fedora infrastructure as well. > > That is what we are trying to define here I believe. You think the > ideals of providing a Free and open source system doesnt apply to its > infrastructure. I think it absolutely does. When we reach consensus we > can write it down somewhere and call it definitive. I would have to agree that it would send mixed messages to the community if Fedora didn't eat it's own open-source cake. -- Rex From notting at redhat.com Thu Apr 20 15:13:34 2006 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 11:13:34 -0400 Subject: [fab] project hosting? In-Reply-To: <1145544216.18551.105.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> References: <1145473694.7526.34.camel@cutter> <444690D2.1090402@vasoftware.com> <1145475920.13331.7.camel@ender> <44469483.1080501@vasoftware.com> <1145534507.18551.79.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <44479236.2020104@math.unl.edu> <1145540787.18551.99.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <44479EC4.1080608@math.unl.edu> <1145544216.18551.105.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20060420151334.GB30403@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Rahul Sundaram (sundaram at fedoraproject.org) said: > It is far from clear to me why Fedora needs to provide its own > infrastructure for itself rather than just use something like Savannah. Integrating the translation project into Savannah seems like it would be hard, if not impossible. Bill From rdieter at math.unl.edu Thu Apr 20 15:30:31 2006 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 10:30:31 -0500 Subject: [fab] project hosting? In-Reply-To: <20060420151334.GB30403@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <1145473694.7526.34.camel@cutter> <444690D2.1090402@vasoftware.com> <1145475920.13331.7.camel@ender> <44469483.1080501@vasoftware.com> <1145534507.18551.79.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <44479236.2020104@math.unl.edu> <1145540787.18551.99.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <44479EC4.1080608@math.unl.edu> <1145544216.18551.105.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <20060420151334.GB30403@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <4447A917.2070807@math.unl.edu> Bill Nottingham wrote: > Rahul Sundaram (sundaram at fedoraproject.org) said: >> It is far from clear to me why Fedora needs to provide its own >> infrastructure for itself rather than just use something like Savannah. > > Integrating the translation project into Savannah seems like > it would be hard, if not impossible. How so? In a similar vein, we should probably come up with a list of requirements, if we have any hope of properly evaluating project hosting alternatives. -- Rex From notting at redhat.com Thu Apr 20 15:33:36 2006 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 11:33:36 -0400 Subject: [fab] project hosting? In-Reply-To: <4447A917.2070807@math.unl.edu> References: <1145475920.13331.7.camel@ender> <44469483.1080501@vasoftware.com> <1145534507.18551.79.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <44479236.2020104@math.unl.edu> <1145540787.18551.99.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <44479EC4.1080608@math.unl.edu> <1145544216.18551.105.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <20060420151334.GB30403@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <4447A917.2070807@math.unl.edu> Message-ID: <20060420153336.GA20356@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Rex Dieter (rdieter at math.unl.edu) said: > Bill Nottingham wrote: > > Rahul Sundaram (sundaram at fedoraproject.org) said: > >> It is far from clear to me why Fedora needs to provide its own > >> infrastructure for itself rather than just use something like Savannah. > > > > Integrating the translation project into Savannah seems like > > it would be hard, if not impossible. > > How so? Just bringing in 1000 users who all need access to specific subsets of 100 packages; it's possible, I suppose. Seems like a large maintenance issue that we could solve better if we at least controlled the backend. There's also the current infrastructure that allows translators to 'reserve' files for a period of time. I'm not sure how that would work at all. > In a similar vein, we should probably come up with a list of > requirements, if we have any hope of properly evaluating project hosting > alternatives. Okily dokily. 1) Various and sundry SCM (currently used: CVS, hg, git) - ACLs - notification of commits, per module and general - pre-commit sanity checks (translation validity, etc.) 2) Ability to release & host tarballs 3) Some sort of basic web space, either via a CMS, or static. vhosting could even be nice. 4) mailing lists? 5) bug tracking? 6) Ability to work with our translation infrastructure; currently, this involves: - 2113 translator accounts (admittedly, not all active) - 173 locales (admittedly, not all active) - Ability for translators to reserve files - Ability to set up per-language translator team mailing lists that span projects - Ability to restrict translators to a specific subset of a project's files, not maintained per-project - (wishlist) ability to not have to maintain a @&$& modules file by hand to get stuff to translators :) - (wishlist) web download/upload/commit mechanisms? - reports! That's off the top of my head. Bill From blizzard at redhat.com Thu Apr 20 15:37:59 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 11:37:59 -0400 Subject: [fab] fedora in brazil Message-ID: <4447AAD7.60706@redhat.com> I just met a couple of ambassadors down here who are manning a small fedora booth. I think they were both named Rodruigez? I'm _terrible_ with names. I guess they are going to be doing events in a number of cities around the country to do talks/shows. The pointed out a few things that they are doing: o I walked away with an installation CD. One CD. It's based on Fedora, so they are doing that work. o They are actively working on a LiveCD project. They really want to have one and said they would have an alpha some time in the next month or so. o They are setting up a huge mount of local infrastructure to do CD distribution inside of the country. They have a form set up so you can request a CD and the person that's closest to you puts it in the mail. The local mail here is apparently slow at times. http://www.projetofedora.org/ There's a lot of that here. o They seem to know Greg and Alex well. Nice job, guys! o They have no idea what's going on with the board or how Fedora relates to Red Hat. For example, there's rumor going around that we're dropping KDE completely. Which is of course not true. I explained some of that "wanting to get KDE maintained by the KDE community" but I don't think I was telling the right people. Not sure if they understood all of that; the language barrier was large. In any case, I didn't even know that they had a little stand set up here. It's nice to see the Fedora symbol up and around. But they clearly need more support if we can get them. Oh, and the word "Fedora" in Brazil is very close to the word for "skanky." Thought everyone might want to know that. Anyone want to do a FUDCON at the 8th FISL? This conference is pretty big and the locals would probably be interesting. --Chris From notting at redhat.com Thu Apr 20 15:40:10 2006 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 11:40:10 -0400 Subject: [fab] project hosting? In-Reply-To: <20060420151334.GB30403@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <444690D2.1090402@vasoftware.com> <1145475920.13331.7.camel@ender> <44469483.1080501@vasoftware.com> <1145534507.18551.79.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <44479236.2020104@math.unl.edu> <1145540787.18551.99.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <44479EC4.1080608@math.unl.edu> <1145544216.18551.105.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <20060420151334.GB30403@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20060420154010.GB20356@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Bill Nottingham (notting at redhat.com) said: > Rahul Sundaram (sundaram at fedoraproject.org) said: > > It is far from clear to me why Fedora needs to provide its own > > infrastructure for itself rather than just use something like Savannah. > > Integrating the translation project into Savannah seems like > it would be hard, if not impossible. Addtional points that would be problematic: Savannah project musts: * Use a license compatible with the GNU GPL; * Refer to the GNU/Linux operating system instead of the Linux, which is the kernel. Advertise the free software movements, which we support, and not the open source one, which we don't. Do not use "Open" in your project name. I'd rather not get into politics. Bill From notting at redhat.com Thu Apr 20 15:41:15 2006 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 11:41:15 -0400 Subject: [fab] fedora in brazil In-Reply-To: <4447AAD7.60706@redhat.com> References: <4447AAD7.60706@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20060420154115.GC20356@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Christopher Blizzard (blizzard at redhat.com) said: > o They are actively working on a LiveCD project. They really want to > have one and said they would have an alpha some time in the next month > or so. Are they on the livced list? Do they know about it? Bill From blizzard at redhat.com Thu Apr 20 15:42:28 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 11:42:28 -0400 Subject: [fab] fedora in brazil In-Reply-To: <20060420154115.GC20356@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <4447AAD7.60706@redhat.com> <20060420154115.GC20356@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <4447ABE4.5020206@redhat.com> Bill Nottingham wrote: > Christopher Blizzard (blizzard at redhat.com) said: >> o They are actively working on a LiveCD project. They really want to >> have one and said they would have an alpha some time in the next month >> or so. > > Are they on the livced list? Do they know about it? > REPLY HAZY. ASK AGAIN LATER. --Chris From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Apr 20 15:45:40 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 21:15:40 +0530 Subject: [fab] fedora in brazil In-Reply-To: <4447AAD7.60706@redhat.com> References: <4447AAD7.60706@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1145547940.18551.113.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 11:37 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > I just met a couple of ambassadors down here who are manning a small > fedora booth. I think they were both named Rodruigez? I'm _terrible_ > with names. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors/CountryList http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/CategoryAmbassadorsBrazil?highlight=% 28CategoryAmbassadors%29 Possibly Rodrigo Menezes and Rodrigo Padula. > > I guess they are going to be doing events in a number of cities around > the country to do talks/shows. The pointed out a few things that they > are doing: > > o I walked away with an installation CD. One CD. It's based on Fedora, > so they are doing that work. Any chance they might be willing to push this work back into Fedora? > > o They are actively working on a LiveCD project. They really want to > have one and said they would have an alpha some time in the next month > or so. It is based on Kadischi? > > o They are setting up a huge mount of local infrastructure to do CD > distribution inside of the country. They have a form set up so you can > request a CD and the person that's closest to you puts it in the mail. > The local mail here is apparently slow at times. > > http://www.projetofedora.org/ > > There's a lot of that here. > > o They seem to know Greg and Alex well. Nice job, guys! > o They have no idea what's going on with the board or how Fedora relates > to Red Hat. For example, there's rumor going around that we're dropping > KDE completely. Which is of course not true. I explained some of that > "wanting to get KDE maintained by the KDE community" but I don't think I > was telling the right people. Not sure if they understood all of that; > the language barrier was large. This is pretty much the same wherever I go. > > In any case, I didn't even know that they had a little stand set up > here. It's nice to see the Fedora symbol up and around. But they > clearly need more support if we can get them. We already are sponsoring events and providing other help in many places as part of the Ambassadors project. Rahul From katzj at redhat.com Thu Apr 20 15:46:57 2006 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 11:46:57 -0400 Subject: [fab] fedora in brazil In-Reply-To: <4447AAD7.60706@redhat.com> References: <4447AAD7.60706@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1145548018.26605.24.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 11:37 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > o I walked away with an installation CD. One CD. It's based on Fedora, > so they are doing that work. Wow, they have a fully self-hosting Fedora distro on a single CD? I want to see their compression technology! More seriously, as I've said now I don't know how many times -- the problems around a single CD are _ENTIRELY_ non-technical. They instead revolve around the fact that one of the big things around Fedora Core is that we ship is a self-hosting set of packages. And then the secondary bit of making the choices of what to put on there. FWIW, do a CD install of a basic desktop install of FC5 (deselect office, as OOo is big) in English and I think it only really uses the first CD. It'll ask for the second due to a dumb bug, but it doesn't actually use any bits off of it. > o They are actively working on a LiveCD project. They really want to > have one and said they would have an alpha some time in the next month > or so. ... instead of being off in their own world, it'd be nice if they'd actually participate on fedora-livecd-list. Building a live cd isn't that hard. Building a live cd framework in a way that's sustainable so that you don't have n people spending a month or two on it after ever release is the more interesting point. Jeremy From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Thu Apr 20 15:49:48 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 11:49:48 -0400 Subject: [fab] fedora in brazil In-Reply-To: <4447AAD7.60706@redhat.com> References: <4447AAD7.60706@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1145548189.2809.6.camel@cutter> On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 11:37 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > o They are setting up a huge mount of local infrastructure to do CD > distribution inside of the country. They have a form set up so you can > request a CD and the person that's closest to you puts it in the mail. > The local mail here is apparently slow at times. > > http://www.projetofedora.org/ We were going to be hosting it here a while ago - I setup the vhost on fedoraproject.org and was setting up a wiki instance then something happened with them getting the name registered - I don't remember all the details - maybe elliot or greg know. I didn't realize they'd set something else up. Or maybe I did and I didn't remember. > o They have no idea what's going on with the board or how Fedora relates > to Red Hat. For example, there's rumor going around that we're dropping > KDE completely. Which is of course not true. I explained some of that > "wanting to get KDE maintained by the KDE community" but I don't think I > was telling the right people. Not sure if they understood all of that; > the language barrier was large. Are they reading the mailing lists? Do they speak english well enough to be willing to translate the board minutes to Portuguese? > Oh, and the word "Fedora" in Brazil is very close to the word for > "skanky." Thought everyone might want to know that. sounds about right. -sv From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Apr 20 15:52:26 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 21:22:26 +0530 Subject: [fab] fedora in brazil In-Reply-To: <1145548189.2809.6.camel@cutter> References: <4447AAD7.60706@redhat.com> <1145548189.2809.6.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1145548346.18551.116.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 11:49 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 11:37 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > > > o They are setting up a huge mount of local infrastructure to do CD > > distribution inside of the country. They have a form set up so you can > > request a CD and the person that's closest to you puts it in the mail. > > The local mail here is apparently slow at times. > > > > http://www.projetofedora.org/ > > We were going to be hosting it here a while ago - I setup the vhost on > fedoraproject.org and was setting up a wiki instance then something > happened with them getting the name registered - I don't remember all > the details - maybe elliot or greg know. I didn't realize they'd set > something else up. Or maybe I did and I didn't remember. > > > o They have no idea what's going on with the board or how Fedora relates > > to Red Hat. For example, there's rumor going around that we're dropping > > KDE completely. Which is of course not true. I explained some of that > > "wanting to get KDE maintained by the KDE community" but I don't think I > > was telling the right people. Not sure if they understood all of that; > > the language barrier was large. > > Are they reading the mailing lists? Do they speak english well enough to > be willing to translate the board minutes to Portuguese? There were a post in fedora-list earlier asking if they have the permission to translate announcements. We might clarify the copyright license on announcements to allow this. Rahul From mspevack at redhat.com Thu Apr 20 15:56:03 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 11:56:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] fedora in brazil In-Reply-To: <4447AAD7.60706@redhat.com> References: <4447AAD7.60706@redhat.com> Message-ID: FAMSCO actually contributed $3000 to the Fedora efforts at FISL, so I'm really glad to hear that it's going well. Great summary Chris -- enjoy Brazil! --Max On Thu, 20 Apr 2006, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > I just met a couple of ambassadors down here who are manning a small fedora > booth. I think they were both named Rodruigez? I'm _terrible_ with names. > > I guess they are going to be doing events in a number of cities around the > country to do talks/shows. The pointed out a few things that they are doing: > > o I walked away with an installation CD. One CD. It's based on Fedora, so > they are doing that work. > > o They are actively working on a LiveCD project. They really want to have > one and said they would have an alpha some time in the next month or so. > > o They are setting up a huge mount of local infrastructure to do CD > distribution inside of the country. They have a form set up so you can > request a CD and the person that's closest to you puts it in the mail. The > local mail here is apparently slow at times. > > http://www.projetofedora.org/ > > There's a lot of that here. > > o They seem to know Greg and Alex well. Nice job, guys! > > o They have no idea what's going on with the board or how Fedora relates to > Red Hat. For example, there's rumor going around that we're dropping KDE > completely. Which is of course not true. I explained some of that "wanting > to get KDE maintained by the KDE community" but I don't think I was telling > the right people. Not sure if they understood all of that; the language > barrier was large. > > In any case, I didn't even know that they had a little stand set up here. > It's nice to see the Fedora symbol up and around. But they clearly need more > support if we can get them. > > Oh, and the word "Fedora" in Brazil is very close to the word for "skanky." > Thought everyone might want to know that. > > Anyone want to do a FUDCON at the 8th FISL? This conference is pretty big > and the locals would probably be interesting. > > --Chris > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board > -- Max Spevack + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/~mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From mspevack at redhat.com Thu Apr 20 16:33:14 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 12:33:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] project hosting? In-Reply-To: <4447A917.2070807@math.unl.edu> References: <1145473694.7526.34.camel@cutter> <444690D2.1090402@vasoftware.com> <1145475920.13331.7.camel@ender> <44469483.1080501@vasoftware.com> <1145534507.18551.79.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <44479236.2020104@math.unl.edu> <1145540787.18551.99.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <44479EC4.1080608@math.unl.edu> <1145544216.18551.105.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <20060420151334.GB30403@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <4447A917.2070807@math.unl.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Apr 2006, Rex Dieter wrote: > In a similar vein, we should probably come up with a list of > requirements, if we have any hope of properly evaluating project hosting > alternatives. Can you take the lead on this Rex? We can get more in depth analysis done -- it will inform our decision here, help us with policy for the future, etc. The perils of being on the Board and speaking up. :-) --Max -- Max Spevack + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/~mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From rdieter at math.unl.edu Thu Apr 20 16:53:16 2006 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 11:53:16 -0500 Subject: [fab] project hosting? In-Reply-To: References: <1145473694.7526.34.camel@cutter> <444690D2.1090402@vasoftware.com> <1145475920.13331.7.camel@ender> <44469483.1080501@vasoftware.com> <1145534507.18551.79.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <44479236.2020104@math.unl.edu> <1145540787.18551.99.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <44479EC4.1080608@math.unl.edu> <1145544216.18551.105.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <20060420151334.GB30403@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <4447A917.2070807@math.unl.edu> Message-ID: <4447BC7C.5030607@math.unl.edu> Max Spevack wrote: > On Thu, 20 Apr 2006, Rex Dieter wrote: > >> In a similar vein, we should probably come up with a list of >> requirements, if we have any hope of properly evaluating project >> hosting alternatives. > > Can you take the lead on this Rex? We can get more in depth analysis > done -- it will inform our decision here, help us with policy for the > future, etc. OK. I'll use Bill's suggestions as a starting point, and throw something on the wiki in the next day or 2. -- Rex From mspevack at redhat.com Thu Apr 20 16:44:55 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 12:44:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Google's Summer of Code 2006 In-Reply-To: <200604200159.21073.nman64@n-man.com> References: <200604151812.00088.nman64@n-man.com> <1145291859.349.67.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <200604171259.15568.nman64@n-man.com> <200604200159.21073.nman64@n-man.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Apr 2006, Patrick W. Barnes wrote: > Google has changed their closing date for applications from mentoring > organizations: > > http://google-code-updates.blogspot.com/2006/04/too-much-of-good-thing.html > > Still, we shouldn't wait until the last possible moment. Are there any > specific objections to our participation? Who'll give them the final > nod of approval? The general consensus of this list, and if that isn't obvious, then the Board will step in and make the call. So let's wrap this thread up. Here's the "Mentoring FAQ" from Google http://code.google.com/soc/mentorfaq.html I don't see anything on there that offers a compelling reason why we shouldn't do this program. Fedora doesn't *lose* anything, and depending on how well we get ourselves organized and what projects we suggest (and it appears that we can suggest *anything* we want), in theory we stand to gain a considerable amount. I didn't see anything in their FAQ about licensing, etc. But I assume the code is GPL'd or has some sort of friendly license that allows us to re-use it. In my opinion, we might as well do it, but if we're going to, let's put the people who believe in it most behind it. I'd like to nominate Patrick to be the primary Mentor contact (what Elliot did last year) and ask members of f-a-b who have time and are excited about the program to help make a list of projects, etc. Really, this is all work that we need to do anyway. Figuring out what a whole bunch of moderately-sized projects that Fedora needs work done on are, cataloging them somewhere, and being able to provide mentoring/support to folks who are working on them. My vote: let's do it, but let's do it in a way that gets the most value for us. So basically what most others said. --Max -- Max Spevack + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/~mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From rdieter at math.unl.edu Thu Apr 20 17:12:11 2006 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 12:12:11 -0500 Subject: [fab] project hosting? In-Reply-To: <20060420154010.GB20356@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <444690D2.1090402@vasoftware.com> <1145475920.13331.7.camel@ender> <44469483.1080501@vasoftware.com> <1145534507.18551.79.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <44479236.2020104@math.unl.edu> <1145540787.18551.99.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <44479EC4.1080608@math.unl.edu> <1145544216.18551.105.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <20060420151334.GB30403@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20060420154010.GB20356@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <4447C0EB.8010608@math.unl.edu> Bill Nottingham wrote: > Bill Nottingham (notting at redhat.com) said: >> Rahul Sundaram (sundaram at fedoraproject.org) said: >>> It is far from clear to me why Fedora needs to provide its own >>> infrastructure for itself rather than just use something like Savannah. >> Integrating the translation project into Savannah seems like >> it would be hard, if not impossible. > > Addtional points that would be problematic: > > Savannah project musts: > * Use a license compatible with the GNU GPL; Any current/potential problems with this? > * Refer to the GNU/Linux operating system instead of the Linux, > which is the kernel. Advertise the free software movements, > which we support, and not the open source one, which we don't. The blurb about GNU/Linux I found said: *... please acknowledge our work, by referring to this system as 'GNU/Linux', when you mention it in connection with this package (savannah)." I have no problem with that (and besides, they asked politely). > * Do not use "Open" in your project name. Not a problem. -- Rex From rdieter at math.unl.edu Thu Apr 20 17:24:43 2006 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 12:24:43 -0500 Subject: [fab] project hosting? In-Reply-To: <20060420153336.GA20356@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <1145475920.13331.7.camel@ender> <44469483.1080501@vasoftware.com> <1145534507.18551.79.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <44479236.2020104@math.unl.edu> <1145540787.18551.99.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <44479EC4.1080608@math.unl.edu> <1145544216.18551.105.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <20060420151334.GB30403@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <4447A917.2070807@math.unl.edu> <20060420153336.GA20356@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <4447C3DB.2080409@math.unl.edu> Bill Nottingham wrote: > There's also the current infrastructure that allows translators > to 'reserve' files for a period of time. I'm not sure how that > would work at all. How many potentially hosted projects need these umpteen-gazzillion translator accounts/features? 1, 2, many, all of them? -- Rex From notting at redhat.com Thu Apr 20 17:16:10 2006 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 13:16:10 -0400 Subject: [fab] project hosting? In-Reply-To: <4447C0EB.8010608@math.unl.edu> References: <44469483.1080501@vasoftware.com> <1145534507.18551.79.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <44479236.2020104@math.unl.edu> <1145540787.18551.99.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <44479EC4.1080608@math.unl.edu> <1145544216.18551.105.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <20060420151334.GB30403@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20060420154010.GB20356@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <4447C0EB.8010608@math.unl.edu> Message-ID: <20060420171610.GC14128@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Rex Dieter (rdieter at math.unl.edu) said: > > Savannah project musts: > > * Use a license compatible with the GNU GPL; > > Any current/potential problems with this? There may still be some OSL stuff lying around. > > * Refer to the GNU/Linux operating system instead of the Linux, > > which is the kernel. Advertise the free software movements, > > which we support, and not the open source one, which we don't. > > The blurb about GNU/Linux I found said: > *... please acknowledge our work, by referring to this system as > 'GNU/Linux', when you mention it in connection with this package > (savannah)." > > I have no problem with that (and besides, they asked politely). The Fedora Project, as a whole, doesn't mention GNU/Linux, so requiring that individual sources we host do so seems counterintuitive. > > * Do not use "Open" in your project name. > > Not a problem. There's nothing named that yet that we're hosting, but I'd rather not enforce that on new projects. Bill From katzj at redhat.com Thu Apr 20 17:28:29 2006 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 13:28:29 -0400 Subject: [fab] project hosting? In-Reply-To: <4447C3DB.2080409@math.unl.edu> References: <1145475920.13331.7.camel@ender> <44469483.1080501@vasoftware.com> <1145534507.18551.79.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <44479236.2020104@math.unl.edu> <1145540787.18551.99.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <44479EC4.1080608@math.unl.edu> <1145544216.18551.105.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <20060420151334.GB30403@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <4447A917.2070807@math.unl.edu> <20060420153336.GA20356@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <4447C3DB.2080409@math.unl.edu> Message-ID: <1145554109.26605.60.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 12:24 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote: > Bill Nottingham wrote: > > There's also the current infrastructure that allows translators > > to 'reserve' files for a period of time. I'm not sure how that > > would work at all. > > How many potentially hosted projects need these umpteen-gazzillion > translator accounts/features? 1, 2, many, all of them? "many" Think all of the config tool type stuff at a minimum including anaconda, etc as well as a lot of the docs stuff Jeremy From notting at redhat.com Thu Apr 20 17:42:41 2006 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 13:42:41 -0400 Subject: [fab] project hosting? In-Reply-To: <4447C3DB.2080409@math.unl.edu> References: <1145534507.18551.79.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <44479236.2020104@math.unl.edu> <1145540787.18551.99.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <44479EC4.1080608@math.unl.edu> <1145544216.18551.105.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <20060420151334.GB30403@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <4447A917.2070807@math.unl.edu> <20060420153336.GA20356@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <4447C3DB.2080409@math.unl.edu> Message-ID: <20060420174241.GE14128@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Rex Dieter (rdieter at math.unl.edu) said: > Bill Nottingham wrote: > > > There's also the current infrastructure that allows translators > > to 'reserve' files for a period of time. I'm not sure how that > > would work at all. > > How many potentially hosted projects need these umpteen-gazzillion > translator accounts/features? 1, 2, many, all of them? Many. The quick count shows 80 projects with po directories. Bill From nman64 at n-man.com Thu Apr 20 22:09:18 2006 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick W. Barnes) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 17:09:18 -0500 Subject: [fab] Google's Summer of Code 2006 In-Reply-To: References: <200604151812.00088.nman64@n-man.com> <200604200159.21073.nman64@n-man.com> Message-ID: <200604201709.21086.nman64@n-man.com> On Thursday 20 April 2006 11:44, Max Spevack wrote: > So let's wrap this thread up. Here's the "Mentoring FAQ" from Google > http://code.google.com/soc/mentorfaq.html > > I don't see anything on there that offers a compelling reason why we > shouldn't do this program. Fedora doesn't *lose* anything, and depending > on how well we get ourselves organized and what projects we suggest (and > it appears that we can suggest *anything* we want), in theory we stand to > gain a considerable amount. > > I didn't see anything in their FAQ about licensing, etc. But I assume the > code is GPL'd or has some sort of friendly license that allows us to > re-use it. We actually determine the licensing of the code, and the student owns copyright and can assign it to us (per the CLA). The only requirement is that we use an OSI-approved license. There should be no problems there. > > In my opinion, we might as well do it, but if we're going to, let's put > the people who believe in it most behind it. I'd like to nominate Patrick > to be the primary Mentor contact (what Elliot did last year) and ask > members of f-a-b who have time and are excited about the program to help > make a list of projects, etc. > > Really, this is all work that we need to do anyway. Figuring out what a > whole bunch of moderately-sized projects that Fedora needs work done on > are, cataloging them somewhere, and being able to provide > mentoring/support to folks who are working on them. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraBounties http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SummerOfCode We created the FedoraBounties page for this program last year, and we have a live thread in fedora-devel-list bringing up ideas. We'll just need to cultivate those ideas and add them to the page. > > My vote: let's do it, but let's do it in a way that gets the most value > for us. > > So basically what most others said. > > --Max -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com http://www.n-man.com/ Have I been helpful? Rate my assistance! http://rate.affero.net/nman64/ -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kwade at redhat.com Thu Apr 20 22:28:23 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 15:28:23 -0700 Subject: [fab] project hosting? In-Reply-To: <4447C0EB.8010608@math.unl.edu> References: <444690D2.1090402@vasoftware.com> <1145475920.13331.7.camel@ender> <44469483.1080501@vasoftware.com> <1145534507.18551.79.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <44479236.2020104@math.unl.edu> <1145540787.18551.99.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <44479EC4.1080608@math.unl.edu> <1145544216.18551.105.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <20060420151334.GB30403@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20060420154010.GB20356@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <4447C0EB.8010608@math.unl.edu> Message-ID: <1145572103.25148.221.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 12:12 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote: > Bill Nottingham wrote: > > Bill Nottingham (notting at redhat.com) said: > >> Rahul Sundaram (sundaram at fedoraproject.org) said: > >>> It is far from clear to me why Fedora needs to provide its own > >>> infrastructure for itself rather than just use something like Savannah. > >> Integrating the translation project into Savannah seems like > >> it would be hard, if not impossible. > > > > Addtional points that would be problematic: > > > > Savannah project musts: > > * Use a license compatible with the GNU GPL; > > Any current/potential problems with this? Is the OPL compatible with the GNU GPL? - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Editor * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Fedora Documentation Project http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject Learn. Network. Experience open source. Red Hat Summit Nashville | May 30 - June 2, 2006 Learn more: http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Thu Apr 20 22:34:45 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 15:34:45 -0700 Subject: [fab] fedora in brazil In-Reply-To: <1145548346.18551.116.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> References: <4447AAD7.60706@redhat.com> <1145548189.2809.6.camel@cutter> <1145548346.18551.116.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1145572486.25148.225.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 21:22 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > There were a post in fedora-list earlier asking if they have the > permission to translate announcements. We might clarify the copyright > license on announcements to allow this. IANAL but I heard from one recently at Red Hat who said, "Make it all OPL!" Or words to that effect. Let's make it obvious that announcements, board minutes, etc. are all 100% libre forever. - Karsten, who is considering a media project to produce a buzzword cloud from the board minutes :) -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Editor * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Fedora Documentation Project http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject Learn. Network. Experience open source. Red Hat Summit Nashville | May 30 - June 2, 2006 Learn more: http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Thu Apr 20 23:23:19 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 19:23:19 -0400 Subject: [fab] project hosting? In-Reply-To: <1145572103.25148.221.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <444690D2.1090402@vasoftware.com> <1145475920.13331.7.camel@ender> <44469483.1080501@vasoftware.com> <1145534507.18551.79.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <44479236.2020104@math.unl.edu> <1145540787.18551.99.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <44479EC4.1080608@math.unl.edu> <1145544216.18551.105.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <20060420151334.GB30403@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20060420154010.GB20356@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <4447C0EB.8010608@math.unl.edu> <1145572103.25148.221.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1145575399.2559.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 15:28 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 12:12 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote: > > Bill Nottingham wrote: > > > Bill Nottingham (notting at redhat.com) said: > > >> Rahul Sundaram (sundaram at fedoraproject.org) said: > > >>> It is far from clear to me why Fedora needs to provide its own > > >>> infrastructure for itself rather than just use something like Savannah. > > >> Integrating the translation project into Savannah seems like > > >> it would be hard, if not impossible. > > > > > > Addtional points that would be problematic: > > > > > > Savannah project musts: > > > * Use a license compatible with the GNU GPL; > > > > Any current/potential problems with this? > > Is the OPL compatible with the GNU GPL? Provided the copyright holder does not exercise either of the optional clauses (which we don't in Fedora), it is considered a "free" documentation license according to the FSF: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html#RealOPL I would say that's probably the best answer you'll get, outside of a Real Legal Opinion that performs an exhaustive analysis of the conjunction of those licenses. Further IANAL answers are probably just as useless as mine. :-D -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Thu Apr 20 23:48:25 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 19:48:25 -0400 Subject: [fab] fedora in brazil In-Reply-To: <1145572486.25148.225.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <4447AAD7.60706@redhat.com> <1145548189.2809.6.camel@cutter> <1145548346.18551.116.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1145572486.25148.225.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1145576905.2559.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 15:34 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 21:22 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > There were a post in fedora-list earlier asking if they have the > > permission to translate announcements. We might clarify the copyright > > license on announcements to allow this. > > IANAL but I heard from one recently at Red Hat who said, "Make it all > OPL!" Or words to that effect. > > Let's make it obvious that announcements, board minutes, etc. are all > 100% libre forever. IANAL either, but licensing this stuff may be overkill: http://www.piercelaw.edu/tfield/copynet.htm Stuff like this that is disseminated over public email lists has VERY broad fair use. If the text at the above link is an accurate assessment, it seems that even trying to artificially exclude, through copyright, a lot of the uses we care about (redistribution, translation) is not necessarily effective. If we don't make any express limitations on this material and send it over public email lists, I think translators should be told "There's no issue with this, please feel free to translate." Translation, especially in a project that has global participation and aspiration, and that encourages same, is a no-brainer. If copyright was a real factor here, wouldn't that kind of put the kibosh on things like Babelfish, Google Translations, etc.? -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From nman64 at n-man.com Fri Apr 21 00:47:46 2006 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick W. Barnes) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 19:47:46 -0500 Subject: [fab] fedora in brazil In-Reply-To: <1145576905.2559.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4447AAD7.60706@redhat.com> <1145572486.25148.225.camel@erato.phig.org> <1145576905.2559.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200604201947.48553.nman64@n-man.com> On Thursday 20 April 2006 18:48, "Paul W. Frields" wrote: > On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 15:34 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > > On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 21:22 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > There were a post in fedora-list earlier asking if they have the > > > permission to translate announcements. We might clarify the copyright > > > license on announcements to allow this. > > > > IANAL but I heard from one recently at Red Hat who said, "Make it all > > OPL!" Or words to that effect. > > > > Let's make it obvious that announcements, board minutes, etc. are all > > 100% libre forever. > > IANAL either, but licensing this stuff may be overkill: > > http://www.piercelaw.edu/tfield/copynet.htm > > Stuff like this that is disseminated over public email lists has VERY > broad fair use. If the text at the above link is an accurate > assessment, it seems that even trying to artificially exclude, through > copyright, a lot of the uses we care about (redistribution, translation) > is not necessarily effective. If we don't make any express limitations > on this material and send it over public email lists, I think > translators should be told "There's no issue with this, please feel free > to translate." Translation, especially in a project that has global > participation and aspiration, and that encourages same, is a no-brainer. > > If copyright was a real factor here, wouldn't that kind of put the > kibosh on things like Babelfish, Google Translations, etc.? Really, the bigger issue here isn't whether or not someone can translate the text, but whether or not they can complete the translation and distribute it or refer to it as being a canonical resource. They have the legal capability (especially with our license) to translate it and publish that translation. Only with our authorization can they label the translation as a canonical resource. I think we should make it clear that translators can indeed translate the documents, but that they respect the OPL and provide a reference to the original English document when they publish or redistribute the translation. That would leave only the English form as a canonical resource, which avoids any liability issues from translation errors, and it would allow translators to help the information proliferate through the community. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com http://www.n-man.com/ Have I been helpful? Rate my assistance! http://rate.affero.net/nman64/ -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mspevack at redhat.com Fri Apr 21 00:52:16 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 20:52:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Google's Summer of Code 2006 In-Reply-To: <200604201709.21086.nman64@n-man.com> References: <200604151812.00088.nman64@n-man.com> <200604200159.21073.nman64@n-man.com> <200604201709.21086.nman64@n-man.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Apr 2006, Patrick W. Barnes wrote: >> In my opinion, we might as well do it, but if we're going to, let's put >> the people who believe in it most behind it. I'd like to nominate Patrick >> to be the primary Mentor contact (what Elliot did last year) and ask >> members of f-a-b who have time and are excited about the program to help >> make a list of projects, etc. >> >> Really, this is all work that we need to do anyway. Figuring out what a >> whole bunch of moderately-sized projects that Fedora needs work done on >> are, cataloging them somewhere, and being able to provide >> mentoring/support to folks who are working on them. > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraBounties > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SummerOfCode > > We created the FedoraBounties page for this program last year, and we have a > live thread in fedora-devel-list bringing up ideas. We'll just need to > cultivate those ideas and add them to the page. Excellent! So Patrick, are you willing to be the point man for this year's SOC? If that's a yes, then it sounds to me like we're a go. --Max -- Max Spevack + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/~mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From nman64 at n-man.com Fri Apr 21 01:04:56 2006 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick W. Barnes) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 20:04:56 -0500 Subject: [fab] Google's Summer of Code 2006 In-Reply-To: References: <200604151812.00088.nman64@n-man.com> <200604201709.21086.nman64@n-man.com> Message-ID: <200604202004.59024.nman64@n-man.com> On Thursday 20 April 2006 19:52, Max Spevack wrote: > On Thu, 20 Apr 2006, Patrick W. Barnes wrote: > >> In my opinion, we might as well do it, but if we're going to, let's put > >> the people who believe in it most behind it. I'd like to nominate > >> Patrick to be the primary Mentor contact (what Elliot did last year) and > >> ask members of f-a-b who have time and are excited about the program to > >> help make a list of projects, etc. > >> > >> Really, this is all work that we need to do anyway. Figuring out what a > >> whole bunch of moderately-sized projects that Fedora needs work done on > >> are, cataloging them somewhere, and being able to provide > >> mentoring/support to folks who are working on them. > > > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraBounties > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SummerOfCode > > > > We created the FedoraBounties page for this program last year, and we > > have a live thread in fedora-devel-list bringing up ideas. We'll just > > need to cultivate those ideas and add them to the page. > > Excellent! > > So Patrick, are you willing to be the point man for this year's SOC? > > If that's a yes, then it sounds to me like we're a go. > I'll give Google the word! :-) -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com http://www.n-man.com/ Have I been helpful? Rate my assistance! http://rate.affero.net/nman64/ -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: not available URL: From blizzard at redhat.com Fri Apr 21 02:42:44 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 22:42:44 -0400 Subject: [fab] fedora in brazil In-Reply-To: <1145547940.18551.113.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> References: <4447AAD7.60706@redhat.com> <1145547940.18551.113.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: <444846A4.4010705@redhat.com> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 11:37 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: >> I just met a couple of ambassadors down here who are manning a small >> fedora booth. I think they were both named Rodruigez? I'm _terrible_ >> with names. > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors/CountryList > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/CategoryAmbassadorsBrazil?highlight=% > 28CategoryAmbassadors%29 > > Possibly Rodrigo Menezes and Rodrigo Padula. Yep, those were they. >> o I walked away with an installation CD. One CD. It's based on Fedora, >> so they are doing that work. > > Any chance they might be willing to push this work back into Fedora? I will ask tomorrow if they are still there. >> o They are actively working on a LiveCD project. They really want to >> have one and said they would have an alpha some time in the next month >> or so. > > It is based on Kadischi? I don't think so. The english conversations weren't great, but I don't think they were using it. >> o They have no idea what's going on with the board or how Fedora relates >> to Red Hat. For example, there's rumor going around that we're dropping >> KDE completely. Which is of course not true. I explained some of that >> "wanting to get KDE maintained by the KDE community" but I don't think I >> was telling the right people. Not sure if they understood all of that; >> the language barrier was large. > > This is pretty much the same wherever I go. It's spelled D-E-P-R-E-S-S-I-N-G. --Chris From blizzard at redhat.com Fri Apr 21 02:44:18 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 22:44:18 -0400 Subject: [fab] fedora in brazil In-Reply-To: References: <4447AAD7.60706@redhat.com> Message-ID: <44484702.2040705@redhat.com> What, no one took my fudcon bait? --Chris From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Fri Apr 21 02:49:59 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 22:49:59 -0400 Subject: [fab] fedora in brazil In-Reply-To: <44484702.2040705@redhat.com> References: <4447AAD7.60706@redhat.com> <44484702.2040705@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1145587799.7813.6.camel@cutter> On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 22:44 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > What, no one took my fudcon bait? Why not have the brazilian folks organize a fudcon for brazil? I don't think any of us speak any Portuguese so we'd probably not be all that useful. -sv From nman64 at n-man.com Fri Apr 21 02:58:27 2006 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick W. Barnes) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 21:58:27 -0500 Subject: [fab] fedora in brazil In-Reply-To: <1145587799.7813.6.camel@cutter> References: <4447AAD7.60706@redhat.com> <44484702.2040705@redhat.com> <1145587799.7813.6.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <200604202158.30347.nman64@n-man.com> On Thursday 20 April 2006 21:49, seth vidal wrote: > On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 22:44 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > > What, no one took my fudcon bait? > > Why not have the brazilian folks organize a fudcon for brazil? I don't > think any of us speak any Portuguese so we'd probably not be all that > useful. > > -sv > Several Fedora ambassadors are in Brazil, and one of the Ambassadors Steering Committee members speaks Brazilian Portuguese, so I'm sure we could handle the language issues. :-) -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com http://www.n-man.com/ Have I been helpful? Rate my assistance! http://rate.affero.net/nman64/ -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gdk at redhat.com Fri Apr 21 14:48:25 2006 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 10:48:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Project Proposal feedback request (fwd) Message-ID: Hey, smart technical people. Nitin is already trying to jump on the SoC bandwagon. Can someone get this in front of a kernel guy and see if it's sensible work? --g ------------------------------------------------------------- Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Project || fedoraproject.org Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors ------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 18:09:20 +0530 From: Nitin Gupta To: gdk at redhat.com Subject: Project Proposal feedback request Hello, I am writing this to get your feedback on my project which I intend to submit to Fedora through Google Summer of Code. Basically, I could not find any of mentors with interest in Linux kernel work from among the ones listed of Fedora Mentors page. So, I would be nice if you can please guide me to contact a mentor who might be interested in this work. I myself think that this project will be very beneficial to Fedora (or any other distribution). Because of significant progress (detailed below) made thus far, I am very confident to complete it within SoC deadline of 3 months. Also, I've been working on this project alone since long time without any funding yet, so usual worries from Fedora about the developer running away from project after SoC completion does not apply! Please Reply with _any_ of your comments on this project and whether you are (why not? :) interested in this project. Your feedback will be really helpful in shaping my application for SoC '06. ------------------ About the Project ----------------------- * Project Name: Compressed Cache for Linux 2.6.x kernels Hosted at: http://linuxcompressed.sourceforge.net Implementation (under-development) for 2.6.x kernels (CVS WebView: http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/linuxcompressed/linux26) * Description: This project involves introducing a new layer in existing virtual memory hierarchy - Compressed Cache. This is an area in RAM that will store pages that were to be swapped out due to memory pressure. This will give very significant performance improvements to system under heavy memory pressure. The project was originally started by Rodrigo S de Castro who developed it for 2.4 kernel series but nothing was done to port it to 2.6.x kernel series. Additionally, he has now left its development and now I'm the only developer working on this project. (Project members: http://sourceforge.net/project/memberlist.php?group_id=13472). I have decided to completely re-write this feature for Linux 2.6.x kernels to have maximum flexibility in trying out new ideas and to take optimum advantage of many new features 2.6 kernels offer. I have been working on its design for 3 months and a working ccache is scheduled to be completed in next 3 months. * Here is my design work for this project: Compressed Cache storage structure: http://nitingupta.mail.googlepages.com/CCache-InitialDesign.zip Compressed Cache structure in more detail: http://nitingupta.mail.googlepages.com/structuredetails * Coding Progress thus far: http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/linuxcompressed/linux26 Currently, the implementation is able to take the page (page-cache page) about to be feed during reclaim and store it in ccache and restores the page when lookup is performed over page-cache. Many of ideas are taken from previous works (largely by Rodrigo) and many are new ones developed by me. This structure focuses to have a high performance during cache lookup, insert, retrieval, low fragmentation compact compressed cache structure. Future work (which might not be covered by SoC) includes adding adaptivity to cache size by being able to automatically adjust ccache size based on heuristic design (which will be largely based on Rodrigo's work: Adaptive Compressed Caching: Design and Implementation ). I strongly believe that this will be extremely useful for Embedded devices like PDAs, Virtualized environment (like XEN, VMWare), LiveCD environment, and on "general" desktop systems (GNOME+OpenOffice on 128MB RAM?). I will be glad to provide you with my previous experience in open-source works or anything specific to this project: details about cache design, other design decisions and project roadmap together with current implementation progress. Please Reply with any of your comments on this project -- that will be really helpful for me. Best Regards, Nitin Gupta nitingupta.mail at gmail.com Home Page: http://nitingupta.mail.googlepages.com From matt at domsch.com Fri Apr 21 15:23:33 2006 From: matt at domsch.com (Matt Domsch) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 10:23:33 -0500 Subject: [fab] Project Proposal feedback request (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060421152333.GB18567@domsch.com> On Fri, Apr 21, 2006 at 10:48:25AM -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > Hey, smart technical people. Nitin is already trying to jump on the SoC > bandwagon. Can someone get this in front of a kernel guy and see if it's > sensible work? I bounced it at riel, who given his kernelnewbies activity and extensive VM knowledge, would make a good mentor (if he has the time). Thanks, Matt From kwade at redhat.com Fri Apr 21 15:28:59 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 08:28:59 -0700 Subject: [fab] fedora in brazil In-Reply-To: <200604201947.48553.nman64@n-man.com> References: <4447AAD7.60706@redhat.com> <1145572486.25148.225.camel@erato.phig.org> <1145576905.2559.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200604201947.48553.nman64@n-man.com> Message-ID: <1145633339.25148.285.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 19:47 -0500, Patrick W. Barnes wrote: > the translation. That would leave only the English form as a canonical > resource, which avoids any liability issues from translation errors, and it > would allow translators to help the information proliferate through the > community. I agree in principal, but this brings up a very interesting point. Why is English our only trusted language? By that I mean ... if we put the same safeguards in place for $LANG that we put in for English, can we pass trust to trusted people who work within that $LANG? For example, in Fedora Documentation, I have been encouraging works submitted in original languages other than English. Such a work must come with a trusted editor who speaks/reads the language well enough to confirm translation, so, either a native speaker or a language genius. That's the exact same thing we require in English; no content can progress very far or be draft published without an editor. By trust, I mean, formal recognition that this person knows wtf Fedora is about and can be trusted to speak for the whole and correct wrongs where they find them. Trust goes like this: Board -> PMC -> individuals in the project. So, since we already display this passage of trust in the case of Ambassadors, we should be able to use the same for translations. One reason we need to follow this method is, we already display this trust in Fedora Translation. We trust them to translate the strings faithfully. This is why I don't have to go to Red Hat translators and ask them to verify every line of a translation. Does it make sense to establish this level of trust into announcements, etc.? - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Editor * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Fedora Documentation Project http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject Learn. Network. Experience open source. Red Hat Summit Nashville | May 30 - June 2, 2006 Learn more: http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From nman64 at n-man.com Fri Apr 21 15:54:23 2006 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick W. Barnes) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 10:54:23 -0500 Subject: [fab] fedora in brazil In-Reply-To: <1145633339.25148.285.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <4447AAD7.60706@redhat.com> <200604201947.48553.nman64@n-man.com> <1145633339.25148.285.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <200604211054.27279.nman64@n-man.com> On Friday 21 April 2006 10:28, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Thu, 2006-04-20 at 19:47 -0500, Patrick W. Barnes wrote: > > the translation. That would leave only the English form as a canonical > > resource, which avoids any liability issues from translation errors, and > > it would allow translators to help the information proliferate through > > the community. > > I agree in principal, but this brings up a very interesting point. > > Why is English our only trusted language? > > By that I mean ... if we put the same safeguards in place for $LANG that > we put in for English, can we pass trust to trusted people who work > within that $LANG? > > For example, in Fedora Documentation, I have been encouraging works > submitted in original languages other than English. Such a work must > come with a trusted editor who speaks/reads the language well enough to > confirm translation, so, either a native speaker or a language genius. > That's the exact same thing we require in English; no content can > progress very far or be draft published without an editor. > > By trust, I mean, formal recognition that this person knows wtf Fedora > is about and can be trusted to speak for the whole and correct wrongs > where they find them. > > Trust goes like this: Board -> PMC -> individuals in the project. > > So, since we already display this passage of trust in the case of > Ambassadors, we should be able to use the same for translations. > > One reason we need to follow this method is, we already display this > trust in Fedora Translation. We trust them to translate the strings > faithfully. This is why I don't have to go to Red Hat translators and > ask them to verify every line of a translation. > > Does it make sense to establish this level of trust into announcements, > etc.? > I would say that my statement applies equally to materials that originate within the project in another language. The basic idea is that each document should have only one form in one language that is considered the canonical resource. We start to have problems if we consider more than one resource canonical, since they might contain slight differences that are inherent in translation and could lead to conflicts. A perfectly accurate translation can be picked apart to create discrepancies, simply due to differences in language constructs. In my previous message, I address the English form as the canonical form only because it is the language that most of our materials originate in, but materials created in another language could just as easily have their canonical version in that language. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com http://www.n-man.com/ Have I been helpful? Rate my assistance! http://rate.affero.net/nman64/ -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tiemann at redhat.com Fri Apr 21 22:06:36 2006 From: tiemann at redhat.com (Michael Tiemann) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 18:06:36 -0400 Subject: [fab] Fedora as Free Software? Message-ID: <1145657196.4688.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> I'm in Porto Alegre attending the FISL (Brazilian Free Software) conference. Free software gets a lot of play down here in Brazil. There's an edited copy of the Ubuntu distribution on the FSF's tabletop, as well as an edited copy of the Kubuntu distribution. The edits look like this: NOT NOT This software is free software. You are encouraged to share it ^ ^ The point the FSF is making is that Ubuntu includes non-free software, like nVidia drivers. I believe that the last go-round on the Fedora lists about our strong, STRONG commitment to free software suggests that we can take a strong position, and enlist the free software community to take a stand for us and with us. Today, we have the following packaging guidelines for Fedora: The goal of The Fedora Project is to work with the Linux community to build a complete, general purpose operating system exclusively from open source software. In accordance with that, all packages included in Fedora must be covered under an open source license. We clarify an open source license in three ways: * OSI-approved license. You can find the list of OSI approved licenses here: [WWW]http://www.opensource.org/licenses/ * GPL-Compatible, Free Software Licenses. You can find the list here: [WWW]http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/license- list.html#GPLCompatibleLicenses * GPL-Incompatible, Free Software Licenses. You can find the list here: [WWW]http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/license- list.html#GPLIncompatibleLicenses If the license of a package isn't covered in one of those lists, urge the upstream maintainer to seek OSI-approval for their license here: [WWW]http://www.opensource.org/docs/certification_mark.php#approval Alternately, if code is dual licensed, and one of the licenses meets the open source license criteria, that code can be included in Fedora under the open source license. Kernel-module packages must use one of the following licenses: GNU General Public License v2.0, GNU Lesser General Public License v2, IBM Public License v1.0, Common Public License v0.5, Q Public License v1.0, Open Software License v1.1, or any open source license granted by Red Hat. Note that any kernel module licensed with any license except GPL or LGPL will taint the kernel. I'm wondering what you guys think about changing the tilt of Fedora from open source to free software. Namely, saying that the license should meet the free software definition ( http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html ) and then mentioning that OSI-certified licenses (with the exception of the Reciprocal Public License, which we're going to reevaluate) are a good list, as well as the free software licenses that are listed on the FSF website. The goal is to make Fedora a distribution that the FSF can positively endorse. I think we're really close. Any reason to not try to go all the way? M From nman64 at n-man.com Fri Apr 21 23:34:18 2006 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick W. Barnes) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 18:34:18 -0500 Subject: [fab] Fedora as Free Software? In-Reply-To: <1145657196.4688.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1145657196.4688.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200604211834.20757.nman64@n-man.com> On Friday 21 April 2006 17:06, Michael Tiemann wrote: > I'm wondering what you guys think about changing the tilt of Fedora from > open source to free software. Namely, saying that the license should > meet the free software definition ( > http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html ) and then mentioning that > OSI-certified licenses (with the exception of the Reciprocal Public > License, which we're going to reevaluate) are a good list, as well as > the free software licenses that are listed on the FSF website. > > The goal is to make Fedora a distribution that the FSF can positively > endorse. I think we're really close. Any reason to not try to go all > the way? > Our mission is, and always has been, free AND open source software. This is in the definitions of both our project and our platform. We already meet the terms of the Free Software Definition, and I certainly wouldn't have any objections to adding such a statement to the guidelines. I feel that our current guidelines already assure our compliance, but it wouldn't hurt to make an explicit declaration. Either way, we will certainly not back down our stance for open source software in any way. I realize that the Free Software Definition requires software to be open source, but we like our dedication to open source to be explicit, too. ;-) -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com http://www.n-man.com/ Have I been helpful? Rate my assistance! http://rate.affero.net/nman64/ -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: not available URL: From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Sat Apr 22 00:08:26 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 20:08:26 -0400 Subject: [fab] Fedora as Free Software? In-Reply-To: <1145657196.4688.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1145657196.4688.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1145664506.13271.2.camel@cutter> > I'm wondering what you guys think about changing the tilt of Fedora from > open source to free software. Namely, saying that the license should > meet the free software definition ( > http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html ) and then mentioning that > OSI-certified licenses (with the exception of the Reciprocal Public > License, which we're going to reevaluate) are a good list, as well as > the free software licenses that are listed on the FSF website. > > The goal is to make Fedora a distribution that the FSF can positively > endorse. I think we're really close. Any reason to not try to go all > the way? Do we have an idea of what we would need to drop to be completely free software definition compliant? What would we lose? I guess a few rpm queries on license should work. what licenses are we looking for? -sv From notting at redhat.com Sat Apr 22 01:01:10 2006 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 21:01:10 -0400 Subject: [fab] Fedora as Free Software? In-Reply-To: <1145657196.4688.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1145657196.4688.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20060422010110.GF29220@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Michael Tiemann (tiemann at redhat.com) said: > I'm wondering what you guys think about changing the tilt of Fedora from > open source to free software. Namely, saying that the license should > meet the free software definition ( > http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html ) and then mentioning that > OSI-certified licenses (with the exception of the Reciprocal Public > License, which we're going to reevaluate) are a good list, as well as > the free software licenses that are listed on the FSF website. > > The goal is to make Fedora a distribution that the FSF can positively > endorse. I think we're really close. Any reason to not try to go all > the way? a) do we know of anything that doesn't fit this? b) will they require us to change everything to say GNU/Linux? :) Bill From tiemann at redhat.com Sat Apr 22 02:33:42 2006 From: tiemann at redhat.com (Michael Tiemann) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 22:33:42 -0400 Subject: [fab] Fedora as Free Software? In-Reply-To: <1145664506.13271.2.camel@cutter> References: <1145657196.4688.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1145664506.13271.2.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1145673222.3863.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2006-04-21 at 20:08 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > > I'm wondering what you guys think about changing the tilt of Fedora from > > open source to free software. Namely, saying that the license should > > meet the free software definition ( > > http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html ) and then mentioning that > > OSI-certified licenses (with the exception of the Reciprocal Public > > License, which we're going to reevaluate) are a good list, as well as > > the free software licenses that are listed on the FSF website. > > > > The goal is to make Fedora a distribution that the FSF can positively > > endorse. I think we're really close. Any reason to not try to go all > > the way? > > Do we have an idea of what we would need to drop to be completely free > software definition compliant? I think the main thing is declaring it to be free software ourselves. We miss the mark by not actually saying it explicitly. > What would we lose? > > I guess a few rpm queries on license should work. > what licenses are we looking for? I've only found one problematic license (the Reciprocal Public License), and I seriously doubt that license is attached to any software we actually ship. Now, it could be that I'm monstrously in the dark, and that we ship non- free drivers with Fedora, but I don't think so... M From tiemann at redhat.com Sat Apr 22 02:35:51 2006 From: tiemann at redhat.com (Michael Tiemann) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 22:35:51 -0400 Subject: [fab] Fedora as Free Software? In-Reply-To: <20060422010110.GF29220@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <1145657196.4688.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060422010110.GF29220@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1145673351.3863.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2006-04-21 at 21:01 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Michael Tiemann (tiemann at redhat.com) said: > > I'm wondering what you guys think about changing the tilt of Fedora from > > open source to free software. Namely, saying that the license should > > meet the free software definition ( > > http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html ) and then mentioning that > > OSI-certified licenses (with the exception of the Reciprocal Public > > License, which we're going to reevaluate) are a good list, as well as > > the free software licenses that are listed on the FSF website. > > > > The goal is to make Fedora a distribution that the FSF can positively > > endorse. I think we're really close. Any reason to not try to go all > > the way? > > a) do we know of anything that doesn't fit this? Dunno--but I'm not the expert in that department. > b) will they require us to change everything to say GNU/Linux? :) No. That's not a requirement of the Free Software Definition 8-P M From matt at domsch.com Sat Apr 22 02:57:56 2006 From: matt at domsch.com (Matt Domsch) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 21:57:56 -0500 Subject: [fab] Fedora as Free Software? In-Reply-To: <1145664506.13271.2.camel@cutter> References: <1145657196.4688.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1145664506.13271.2.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <20060422025755.GA23288@domsch.com> On Fri, Apr 21, 2006 at 08:08:26PM -0400, seth vidal wrote: > > > I'm wondering what you guys think about changing the tilt of Fedora from > > open source to free software. Namely, saying that the license should > > meet the free software definition ( > > http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html ) and then mentioning that > > OSI-certified licenses (with the exception of the Reciprocal Public > > License, which we're going to reevaluate) are a good list, as well as > > the free software licenses that are listed on the FSF website. > > > > The goal is to make Fedora a distribution that the FSF can positively > > endorse. I think we're really close. Any reason to not try to go all > > the way? > > Do we have an idea of what we would need to drop to be completely free > software definition compliant? > > What would we lose? > > I guess a few rpm queries on license should work. > what licenses are we looking for? At a glance of Core -devel, the following packages don't have licenses that are explicitly on the FSF's list: tog-pegasus Open Group Pegasus Open Source (motif) tog-pegasus-devel Open Group Pegasus Open Source openmotif Open Group Public License openmotif-devel Open Group Public License xorg-x11-proto-devel The Open Group License xorg-x11-util-macros The Open Group License jdepend Clarkware License jdepend-demo Clarkware License jdepend-javadoc Clarkware License adaptx Exolab Software License adaptx-doc Exolab Software License adaptx-javadoc Exolab Software License castor Exolab Software License castor-demo Exolab Software License castor-doc Exolab Software License castor-javadoc Exolab Software License castor-test Exolab Software License castor-xml Exolab Software License latex2html Free To Use But Restricted (See LICENSE) tanukiwrapper Tanuki Software License (open source) tanukiwrapper-demo Tanuki Software License (open source) tanukiwrapper-javadoc Tanuki Software License (open source) tanukiwrapper-manual Tanuki Software License (open source) libc-client University of Washington Free-Fork License libc-client-devel University of Washington Free-Fork License xdoclet XDoclet Open Source Licence xdoclet-javadoc XDoclet Open Source Licence xdoclet-manual XDoclet Open Source Licence For that matter, none of these are on the OSI's list either explicitly. Then there's all of the "distributable" License tags, and the packages marked "various". So yes, close, but not a done deal. Thanks, Matt From blizzard at redhat.com Sat Apr 22 03:20:41 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 23:20:41 -0400 Subject: [fab] Fedora as Free Software? In-Reply-To: <20060422010110.GF29220@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <1145657196.4688.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060422010110.GF29220@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <4449A109.7070602@redhat.com> Bill Nottingham wrote: > Michael Tiemann (tiemann at redhat.com) said: >> I'm wondering what you guys think about changing the tilt of Fedora from >> open source to free software. Namely, saying that the license should >> meet the free software definition ( >> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html ) and then mentioning that >> OSI-certified licenses (with the exception of the Reciprocal Public >> License, which we're going to reevaluate) are a good list, as well as >> the free software licenses that are listed on the FSF website. >> >> The goal is to make Fedora a distribution that the FSF can positively >> endorse. I think we're really close. Any reason to not try to go all >> the way? > > a) do we know of anything that doesn't fit this? > b) will they require us to change everything to say GNU/Linux? :) This is actually one of my concerns as well - that by doing this we're putting a stake in the ground and that we're setting ourselves up to fall in the eyes of FSF followers. I'm sure that at some point in the future we'll do something that bothers them and then we'll be the bad guys. So yeah, as long as this is done on _our_ terms and we're endorsing ourselves it's fine. --Chris From stickster at gmail.com Sat Apr 22 14:33:26 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 10:33:26 -0400 Subject: [fab] Re: Fedora core suggestions In-Reply-To: <604aa7910604220630t14b3ac45m48b03f20be3a6bb3@mail.gmail.com> References: <44491C48.4010101@warmcat.com> <1145644743.6606.27.camel@fortinbras.dpniner.net> <4449328C.2040606@warmcat.com> <1145657739.27565.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910604211634m49310079pc327e5cd231f123b@mail.gmail.com> <20060422121801.GA909@imperial.ac.uk> <604aa7910604220630t14b3ac45m48b03f20be3a6bb3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1145716407.3046.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2006-04-22 at 09:30 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 4/22/06, Kostas Georgiou wrote: > > qemu can use VMDK images so the tool is already available in extras. > > Most likely you'll only need minor (if any) configuration changes > > before you can use the image with vmplayer. > > qemu can use them... can qemu create them? We need an open tool that > can be included in FC/FE that can create the content not just use it. The press release on the website claims the licensing terms are GPL-compatible. There doesn't seem to be anywhere to download the actual terms, though. I have sent email to VMWare asking for a copy of the terms for review. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Sat Apr 22 17:15:39 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 10:15:39 -0700 Subject: [fab] brand v. proprietary Message-ID: <1145726139.25148.407.camel@erato.phig.org> Based on recent discussions, I think it is going to be a non-starter for me to further encourage the use of the physical, CollabNet-based platform that Developer Nation is running on at devnation.redhat.com. I'm not entirely withdrawing the offer, but I no longer recommend it. The Developer Nation brand is another thing, though. Red Hat is going to put considerable effort into this, and the idea of the brand separates it a bit from "Red Hat Foo Bar Baz". Thus ... I propose that we extend Developer Nation's non-borders to include Fedora and begin work on putting up a FLOSS collaboration suite[1] at devnation.fedoraproject.org. We lose everything from single-sign and database sharing with devnation.redhat.com, but that probably matters less than it appears. After all, hyperlinking still works. :) The Developer Nation idea is nation without borders because we are trying to dissolve traditional barriers to community and collaboration that corporate walls create. In that sense, Fedora is not already within the Developer Nation, but is actually one of the leaders we all need to watch and embrace. My proposal is to formalize that relationship and wrap infrastructure around it. If you do want to take advantage of Red Hat's offer in this case, I'll continue work on resolving how to make *.devnation.fedoraproject.org do the right thing. If we want to proceed with identifying and starting up a collaboration suite, I volunteer to be on that committee and make it happen. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Editor * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Fedora Documentation Project http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject Learn. Network. Experience open source. Red Hat Summit Nashville | May 30 - June 2, 2006 Learn more: http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From blizzard at redhat.com Sat Apr 22 18:12:08 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 14:12:08 -0400 Subject: [fab] brand v. proprietary In-Reply-To: <1145726139.25148.407.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1145726139.25148.407.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <444A71F8.5070202@redhat.com> I don't know much about the devnation stuff that Red Hat was going to do in the first place. Can you give us a little more background? --Chris Karsten Wade wrote: > Based on recent discussions, I think it is going to be a non-starter for > me to further encourage the use of the physical, CollabNet-based > platform that Developer Nation is running on at devnation.redhat.com. > I'm not entirely withdrawing the offer, but I no longer recommend it. > > The Developer Nation brand is another thing, though. Red Hat is going > to put considerable effort into this, and the idea of the brand > separates it a bit from "Red Hat Foo Bar Baz". Thus ... > > I propose that we extend Developer Nation's non-borders to include > Fedora and begin work on putting up a FLOSS collaboration suite[1] at > devnation.fedoraproject.org. > > We lose everything from single-sign and database sharing with > devnation.redhat.com, but that probably matters less than it appears. > After all, hyperlinking still works. :) > > The Developer Nation idea is nation without borders because we are > trying to dissolve traditional barriers to community and collaboration > that corporate walls create. In that sense, Fedora is not already > within the Developer Nation, but is actually one of the leaders we all > need to watch and embrace. My proposal is to formalize that > relationship and wrap infrastructure around it. > > If you do want to take advantage of Red Hat's offer in this case, I'll > continue work on resolving how to make *.devnation.fedoraproject.org do > the right thing. > > If we want to proceed with identifying and starting up a collaboration > suite, I volunteer to be on that committee and make it happen. > > - Karsten > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sat Apr 22 19:05:15 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 00:35:15 +0530 Subject: [fab] Fedora as Free Software? In-Reply-To: <1145657196.4688.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1145657196.4688.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1145732715.18551.179.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> On Fri, 2006-04-21 at 18:06 -0400, Michael Tiemann wrote: > I'm in Porto Alegre attending the FISL (Brazilian Free Software) > conference. Free software gets a lot of play down here in Brazil. > > There's an edited copy of the Ubuntu distribution on the FSF's tabletop, > as well as an edited copy of the Kubuntu distribution. The edits look > like this: > > NOT NOT > This software is free software. You are encouraged to share it > ^ ^ > > The point the FSF is making is that Ubuntu includes non-free software, > like nVidia drivers. I believe that the last go-round on the Fedora > lists about our strong, STRONG commitment to free software suggests that > we can take a strong position, and enlist the free software community to > take a stand for us and with us. > > Today, we have the following packaging guidelines for Fedora: > > The goal of The Fedora Project is to work with the Linux > community to build a complete, general purpose operating system > exclusively from open source software. In accordance with that, > all packages included in Fedora must be covered under an open > source license. > > We clarify an open source license in three ways: > > * OSI-approved license. You can find the list of OSI > approved licenses here: > [WWW]http://www.opensource.org/licenses/ > > * GPL-Compatible, Free Software Licenses. You can find the > list here: [WWW]http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/license- > list.html#GPLCompatibleLicenses > > * GPL-Incompatible, Free Software Licenses. You can find > the list here: > [WWW]http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/license- > list.html#GPLIncompatibleLicenses > > > If the license of a package isn't covered in one of those lists, > urge the upstream maintainer to seek OSI-approval for their > license here: > [WWW]http://www.opensource.org/docs/certification_mark.php#approval > > Alternately, if code is dual licensed, and one of the licenses > meets the open source license criteria, that code can be > included in Fedora under the open source license. > > Kernel-module packages must use one of the following licenses: > GNU General Public License v2.0, GNU Lesser General Public > License v2, IBM Public License v1.0, Common Public License v0.5, > Q Public License v1.0, Open Software License v1.1, or any open > source license granted by Red Hat. > > Note that any kernel module licensed with any license except GPL > or LGPL will taint the kernel. > > I'm wondering what you guys think about changing the tilt of Fedora from > open source to free software. Namely, saying that the license should > meet the free software definition ( > http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html ) and then mentioning that > OSI-certified licenses (with the exception of the Reciprocal Public > License, which we're going to reevaluate) are a good list, as well as > the free software licenses that are listed on the FSF website. > > The goal is to make Fedora a distribution that the FSF can positively > endorse. I think we're really close. Any reason to not try to go all > the way? I was corresponding with RMS earlier after a brief discussion in the earlier advisors list and he brought in the point that the current guidelines allow open source licenses which FSF consider's non-free. A mail to licensing at gnu.org will get FSF to evaluate a license an a post will be made to http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html on FSF's opinion. There have been apprehensions about getting into political maneuvering which is valid concern to a good extend but this is something worth exploring. Rahul From tiemann at redhat.com Sat Apr 22 19:11:34 2006 From: tiemann at redhat.com (Michael Tiemann) Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 15:11:34 -0400 Subject: [fab] Fedora as Free Software? In-Reply-To: <1145732715.18551.179.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> References: <1145657196.4688.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1145732715.18551.179.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1145733094.13296.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2006-04-23 at 00:35 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > I was corresponding with RMS earlier after a brief discussion in the > earlier advisors list and he brought in the point that the current > guidelines allow open source licenses which FSF consider's non-free. A > mail to licensing at gnu.org will get FSF to evaluate a license an a post > will be made to http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html on FSF's > opinion. There have been apprehensions about getting into political > maneuvering which is valid concern to a good extend but this is > something worth exploring. I think that what we've seen from Matt Domsch's email is that there are more licenses in Fedora that are not even OSI-compliant than are in the zone of "OSI-certified but non-free". If we clean our house to follow our own more explicit guidelines, we get free for free. M From stickster at gmail.com Sun Apr 23 14:49:27 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 10:49:27 -0400 Subject: [fab] Plone Bootcamp Message-ID: <1145803768.3046.71.camel@localhost.localdomain> http://plone.org/news/zpugdc-plone-bootcamp There's a very low-priced Plone Bootcamp for developers going on in Washington, DC next month. Registration is supposed to open this week. I didn't know if anyone was interested in going to such a thing, but with our own Plone coming someday soonish, would it be worthwhile to sponsor someone's (or someones') attendance from Websites? -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From fedora at leemhuis.info Sun Apr 23 18:59:35 2006 From: fedora at leemhuis.info (Thorsten Leemhuis) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 20:59:35 +0200 Subject: [fab] FESCo future Message-ID: <1145818775.2767.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hi all! Just FYI, the Fedora Extras Steering Commitee is now round about a year old and it's time for a rotations/some fresh blood and ideas. I proposed a rough plan for that in https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-extras-list/2006-April/msg01383.html The current plan is to let all extras packagers vote people that nominated theirself for FESCo. The nomination to a public list should include a section with a short mission statement with goals, objectives, etc. The plan is to let the newly elected FESCo elect the (new) chairman -- or does the Fedora Board want to get /should be involved in that process, too? CU thl -- Thorsten Leemhuis From mspevack at redhat.com Mon Apr 24 00:29:05 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 20:29:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] FESCo future In-Reply-To: <1145818775.2767.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1145818775.2767.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Apr 2006, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > Hi all! > > Just FYI, the Fedora Extras Steering Commitee is now round about a year > old and it's time for a rotations/some fresh blood and ideas. I proposed > a rough plan for that in > > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-extras-list/2006-April/msg01383.html > > The current plan is to let all extras packagers vote people that > nominated theirself for FESCo. The nomination to a public list should > include a section with a short mission statement with goals, objectives, > etc. > > The plan is to let the newly elected FESCo elect the (new) chairman -- > or does the Fedora Board want to get /should be involved in that > process, too? I don't see any reason why FESCo shouldn't elect their own chairman. In fact, I think the Board should pay attention to how you handle your elections, and take some ideas for our own policies. --Max -- Max Spevack + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/~mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From kwade at redhat.com Mon Apr 24 13:53:01 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 06:53:01 -0700 Subject: [fab] brand v. proprietary In-Reply-To: <444A71F8.5070202@redhat.com> References: <1145726139.25148.407.camel@erato.phig.org> <444A71F8.5070202@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1145886781.25148.517.camel@erato.phig.org> On Sat, 2006-04-22 at 14:12 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > I don't know much about the devnation stuff that Red Hat was going to do > in the first place. Can you give us a little more background? Developer Nation is our one-stop developer community resource. This is an intentional direction Red Hat is taking, to provide infrastructure that supports developer collaboration beyond the ad hoc FLOSS projects we put together as we need them. It has different meaning to different people, but I'll ignore all the marketing positioning stuff for here to focus on what it means to FLOSS. Our first mission is to serve developers who use FLOSS but are not active in the communities or otherwise need a central location to learn about and be part of FLOSS. In this job, we are providing a collaboration portal focused on content about FLOSS -- raw materials (blogs, mailing list entries), slightly polished (del.icio.us links, quick Wiki articles), and fully complete (submitted or sought articles, polished content from people.r.c). I expect to see early uptake by: RH developers moving from e.g. people.r.c; RM product and program managers who want to talk directly with developers at ISVs, IHVs, and enterprise IT shops; many of the RH partners, small and large; early adopter developers who hear about it and are looking to increase their knowledge of and visibility within FLOSS; Fedora developers looking for better, faster project and collaboration space; and so forth. Now that I'm close enough to talk about this thing for real, I think I'll take this message as a starting point and do some real blogging about it. :) - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Editor * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Fedora Documentation Project http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject Learn. Network. Experience open source. Red Hat Summit Nashville | May 30 - June 2, 2006 Learn more: http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Mon Apr 24 13:59:54 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 06:59:54 -0700 Subject: [fab] FESCo future In-Reply-To: <1145818775.2767.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1145818775.2767.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1145887194.25148.521.camel@erato.phig.org> On Sun, 2006-04-23 at 20:59 +0200, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > Hi all! > > Just FYI, the Fedora Extras Steering Commitee is now round about a year > old and it's time for a rotations/some fresh blood and ideas. I proposed > a rough plan for that in > > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-extras-list/2006-April/msg01383.html > > The current plan is to let all extras packagers vote people that > nominated theirself for FESCo. The nomination to a public list should > include a section with a short mission statement with goals, objectives, > etc. > > The plan is to let the newly elected FESCo elect the (new) chairman -- > or does the Fedora Board want to get /should be involved in that > process, too? As someone who has been following in FESCo's footsteps, I agree with this approach. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Editor * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Fedora Documentation Project http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject Learn. Network. Experience open source. Red Hat Summit Nashville | May 30 - June 2, 2006 Learn more: http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mspevack at redhat.com Mon Apr 24 14:22:05 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 10:22:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Plone Bootcamp In-Reply-To: <1145803768.3046.71.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1145803768.3046.71.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Apr 2006, Paul W. Frields wrote: > http://plone.org/news/zpugdc-plone-bootcamp > > There's a very low-priced Plone Bootcamp for developers going on in > Washington, DC next month. Registration is supposed to open this week. > I didn't know if anyone was interested in going to such a thing, but > with our own Plone coming someday soonish, would it be worthwhile to > sponsor someone's (or someones') attendance from Websites? Who's the best choice? --Max -- Max Spevack + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/~mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From mspevack at redhat.com Mon Apr 24 14:51:24 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 10:51:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Plone Bootcamp In-Reply-To: <1145803768.3046.71.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1145803768.3046.71.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Apr 2006, Paul W. Frields wrote: > http://plone.org/news/zpugdc-plone-bootcamp > > There's a very low-priced Plone Bootcamp for developers going on in > Washington, DC next month. Registration is supposed to open this week. > I didn't know if anyone was interested in going to such a thing, but > with our own Plone coming someday soonish, would it be worthwhile to > sponsor someone's (or someones') attendance from Websites? Who's the best choice? --Max -- Max Spevack + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/~mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From mspevack at redhat.com Mon Apr 24 14:55:43 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 10:55:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] meeting summary is posted Message-ID: Just wanted to make sure everyone knew that the meeting summary from the last board meeting is up on the wiki now. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/Meetings/2006-04-18 Thanks, Max -- Max Spevack + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/~mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From wtogami at redhat.com Mon Apr 24 16:08:11 2006 From: wtogami at redhat.com (Warren Togami) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 12:08:11 -0400 Subject: [fab] Proposed Plan for Split of Fedora-Announce-List In-Reply-To: <1145376180.1568.53.camel@cutter> References: <4443E2B7.40100@redhat.com> <4444A69C.3070601@gtw.net> <1145361222.349.111.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1145374211.2465.239.camel@erato.phig.org> <1145374547.349.133.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1145375663.1568.50.camel@cutter> <1145376180.1568.53.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <444CF7EB.5080908@redhat.com> seth vidal wrote: > On Tue, 2006-04-18 at 11:53 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: >> It's not a particularly ballsy decision. It just needs to get made. :) >> > > I guess I'm missing what the big controversy is. > > We'd be best off producing messages in such a way and using such > technology that we can easily convert them into N different formats. Or > better yet, that someone else can for themselves. > 1) Split fedora-announce-list ----------------------------- Make fedora-announce-list into a low traffic, high relevance list of only announcements. 2) Redirect package update announcements onto its own list ---------------------------------------------------------- fedora-package-announce exists for people who want to receive update announcements of any Fedora package. People can login to change their subscription to include or exclude different channels within fedora-package-announce. So you could ask for only Fedora 5 (including FC5, FE5 and FL5). This package announce list only temporarily will be the only solution. When the next objective is achieved, then people will have other options to view the same information. 3) Make package announcements backed by a database -------------------------------------------------- We should have all of this information stored in a database. Generated from this database are a number of both push & pull representations like: - Package update and security advisory list announcements - RSS feeds - Canonical package update website (links from RSS feed point here) - Metadata for pirut and pup http://people.redhat.com/wtogami/temp/fedora-updates.png Luke Macken's previous work on the Fedora Update tracking system that we currently use only internally give us a head start in these goals. It would be fairly easy to build upon this existing foundation, but only after we achieve a few other objectives. (Putting the Fedora Updates system in the public requires some design considerations for proper handling of Embargo and possibly other aspects related to the Fedora distribution merge.) Thoughts? Warren Togami wtogami at redhat.com From tiemann at redhat.com Mon Apr 24 16:23:14 2006 From: tiemann at redhat.com (Michael Tiemann) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 12:23:14 -0400 Subject: [fab] Proposed Plan for Split of Fedora-Announce-List In-Reply-To: <444CF7EB.5080908@redhat.com> References: <4443E2B7.40100@redhat.com> <4444A69C.3070601@gtw.net> <1145361222.349.111.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1145374211.2465.239.camel@erato.phig.org> <1145374547.349.133.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1145375663.1568.50.camel@cutter> <1145376180.1568.53.camel@cutter> <444CF7EB.5080908@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1145895794.3694.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2006-04-24 at 12:08 -0400, Warren Togami wrote: > 3) Make package announcements backed by a database > -------------------------------------------------- > We should have all of this information stored in a database. Generated > from this database are a number of both push & pull representations like: > - Package update and security advisory list announcements > - RSS feeds > - Canonical package update website (links from RSS feed point here) > - Metadata for pirut and pup > > http://people.redhat.com/wtogami/temp/fedora-updates.png > Luke Macken's previous work on the Fedora Update tracking system that we > currently use only internally give us a head start in these goals. It > would be fairly easy to build upon this existing foundation, but only > after we achieve a few other objectives. (Putting the Fedora Updates > system in the public requires some design considerations for proper > handling of Embargo and possibly other aspects related to the Fedora > distribution merge.) > > Thoughts? I will volunteer to help with the database design and testing, and feature enhancement requests. I prefer to write SQL to C++ these days-- go figure! I cannot volunteer to actually run the production system, but do think it would be fun to make this system a window into Fedora development. M From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Apr 24 16:26:47 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 21:56:47 +0530 Subject: [fab] Proposed Plan for Split of Fedora-Announce-List In-Reply-To: <1145895794.3694.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4443E2B7.40100@redhat.com> <4444A69C.3070601@gtw.net> <1145361222.349.111.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1145374211.2465.239.camel@erato.phig.org> <1145374547.349.133.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1145375663.1568.50.camel@cutter> <1145376180.1568.53.camel@cutter> <444CF7EB.5080908@redhat.com> <1145895794.3694.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1145896008.3799.28.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> On Mon, 2006-04-24 at 12:23 -0400, Michael Tiemann wrote: > On Mon, 2006-04-24 at 12:08 -0400, Warren Togami wrote: > > > 3) Make package announcements backed by a database > > -------------------------------------------------- > > We should have all of this information stored in a database. Generated > > from this database are a number of both push & pull representations like: > > - Package update and security advisory list announcements > > - RSS feeds > > - Canonical package update website (links from RSS feed point here) > > - Metadata for pirut and pup > > > > http://people.redhat.com/wtogami/temp/fedora-updates.png > > Luke Macken's previous work on the Fedora Update tracking system that we > > currently use only internally give us a head start in these goals. It > > would be fairly easy to build upon this existing foundation, but only > > after we achieve a few other objectives. (Putting the Fedora Updates > > system in the public requires some design considerations for proper > > handling of Embargo and possibly other aspects related to the Fedora > > distribution merge.) > > > > Thoughts? > > I will volunteer to help with the database design and testing, and > feature enhancement requests. I prefer to write SQL to C++ these days-- > go figure! I cannot volunteer to actually run the production system, > but do think it would be fun to make this system a window into Fedora > development. > Yes. The ability of people outside of Red Hat to check the status and even resolve issues is important. Rahul From gdk at redhat.com Mon Apr 24 16:29:03 2006 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 12:29:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Proposed Plan for Split of Fedora-Announce-List In-Reply-To: <444CF7EB.5080908@redhat.com> References: <4443E2B7.40100@redhat.com> <4444A69C.3070601@gtw.net> <1145361222.349.111.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1145374211.2465.239.camel@erato.phig.org> <1145374547.349.133.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1145375663.1568.50.camel@cutter> <1145376180.1568.53.camel@cutter> <444CF7EB.5080908@redhat.com> Message-ID: I like it. --g ------------------------------------------------------------- Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Project || fedoraproject.org Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors ------------------------------------------------------------- On Mon, 24 Apr 2006, Warren Togami wrote: > seth vidal wrote: > > On Tue, 2006-04-18 at 11:53 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > >> It's not a particularly ballsy decision. It just needs to get made. :) > >> > > > > I guess I'm missing what the big controversy is. > > > > We'd be best off producing messages in such a way and using such > > technology that we can easily convert them into N different formats. Or > > better yet, that someone else can for themselves. > > > > 1) Split fedora-announce-list > ----------------------------- > Make fedora-announce-list into a low traffic, high relevance list of > only announcements. > > 2) Redirect package update announcements onto its own list > ---------------------------------------------------------- > fedora-package-announce exists for people who want to receive update > announcements of any Fedora package. People can login to change their > subscription to include or exclude different channels within > fedora-package-announce. So you could ask for only Fedora 5 (including > FC5, FE5 and FL5). > > This package announce list only temporarily will be the only solution. > When the next objective is achieved, then people will have other options > to view the same information. > > 3) Make package announcements backed by a database > -------------------------------------------------- > We should have all of this information stored in a database. Generated > from this database are a number of both push & pull representations like: > - Package update and security advisory list announcements > - RSS feeds > - Canonical package update website (links from RSS feed point here) > - Metadata for pirut and pup > > http://people.redhat.com/wtogami/temp/fedora-updates.png > Luke Macken's previous work on the Fedora Update tracking system that we > currently use only internally give us a head start in these goals. It > would be fairly easy to build upon this existing foundation, but only > after we achieve a few other objectives. (Putting the Fedora Updates > system in the public requires some design considerations for proper > handling of Embargo and possibly other aspects related to the Fedora > distribution merge.) > > Thoughts? > > Warren Togami > wtogami at redhat.com > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board > From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Apr 24 16:40:21 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 22:10:21 +0530 Subject: [fab] FESCo future In-Reply-To: <1145818775.2767.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1145818775.2767.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1145896821.3799.31.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> On Sun, 2006-04-23 at 20:59 +0200, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > Hi all! > > Just FYI, the Fedora Extras Steering Commitee is now round about a year > old and it's time for a rotations/some fresh blood and ideas. I proposed > a rough plan for that in > > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-extras-list/2006-April/msg01383.html > > The current plan is to let all extras packagers vote people that > nominated theirself for FESCo. The nomination to a public list should > include a section with a short mission statement with goals, objectives, > etc. > > The plan is to let the newly elected FESCo elect the (new) chairman -- > or does the Fedora Board want to get /should be involved in that > process, too? I dont think the board needs to get involved with it other than watching closely the discussions and results of the process. Considering that we are still evolving the governance model and there is more questions than answers with how the end result should look like even when applying similar processes to the board itself, any direct involvement from the board within FESCo wouldnt yield much benefits. Rahul From mspevack at redhat.com Mon Apr 24 16:45:32 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 12:45:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Proposed Plan for Split of Fedora-Announce-List In-Reply-To: <444CF7EB.5080908@redhat.com> References: <4443E2B7.40100@redhat.com> <4444A69C.3070601@gtw.net> <1145361222.349.111.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1145374211.2465.239.camel@erato.phig.org> <1145374547.349.133.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1145375663.1568.50.camel@cutter> <1145376180.1568.53.camel@cutter> <444CF7EB.5080908@redhat.com> Message-ID: Go for it. I would add a final step 4) make sure we communicate what we did out to everyone. :-) --Max On Mon, 24 Apr 2006, Warren Togami wrote: > seth vidal wrote: >> On Tue, 2006-04-18 at 11:53 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: >>> It's not a particularly ballsy decision. It just needs to get made. :) >>> >> >> I guess I'm missing what the big controversy is. >> >> We'd be best off producing messages in such a way and using such >> technology that we can easily convert them into N different formats. Or >> better yet, that someone else can for themselves. >> > > 1) Split fedora-announce-list > ----------------------------- > Make fedora-announce-list into a low traffic, high relevance list of > only announcements. > > 2) Redirect package update announcements onto its own list > ---------------------------------------------------------- > fedora-package-announce exists for people who want to receive update > announcements of any Fedora package. People can login to change their > subscription to include or exclude different channels within > fedora-package-announce. So you could ask for only Fedora 5 (including > FC5, FE5 and FL5). > > This package announce list only temporarily will be the only solution. > When the next objective is achieved, then people will have other options > to view the same information. > > 3) Make package announcements backed by a database > -------------------------------------------------- > We should have all of this information stored in a database. Generated > from this database are a number of both push & pull representations like: > - Package update and security advisory list announcements > - RSS feeds > - Canonical package update website (links from RSS feed point here) > - Metadata for pirut and pup > > http://people.redhat.com/wtogami/temp/fedora-updates.png > Luke Macken's previous work on the Fedora Update tracking system that we > currently use only internally give us a head start in these goals. It > would be fairly easy to build upon this existing foundation, but only > after we achieve a few other objectives. (Putting the Fedora Updates > system in the public requires some design considerations for proper > handling of Embargo and possibly other aspects related to the Fedora > distribution merge.) > > Thoughts? > > Warren Togami > wtogami at redhat.com > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board > -- Max Spevack + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/~mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From gdk at redhat.com Mon Apr 24 18:14:13 2006 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 14:14:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] I have a few questions for the board. Message-ID: PMCs * Which projects are official Fedora projects? * Who chairs the projects? * What's the current status of the projects? * Where can I find the authoritative answers to these questions? SIGs * Where's the authoritative list of current SIGs? * Who's responsible for keeping them alive? --g ------------------------------------------------------------- Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Project || fedoraproject.org Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors ------------------------------------------------------------- From jkeating at redhat.com Mon Apr 24 18:23:13 2006 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 14:23:13 -0400 Subject: [fab] I have a few questions for the board. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1145902993.2738.29.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> On Mon, 2006-04-24 at 14:14 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > PMCs > * Which projects are official Fedora projects? > * Who chairs the projects? > * What's the current status of the projects? Fedora Legacy is an official Fedora Project. I chair this project. Current status of this project is long winded, but basically we're still pushing updates (slowly), we need more people that can do package pushing, but we need a better infrastructure before I want to go too far down that road. I posted a request for resources to the board, that discussion is (still?) ongoing. -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From gdk at redhat.com Mon Apr 24 19:30:10 2006 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 15:30:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] I have a few questions for the board. In-Reply-To: <1145902993.2738.29.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> References: <1145902993.2738.29.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: Thanks, Jesse, but the real question was: Where are we documenting this stuff, clearly, and are we keeping up with it? Is Ambassadors an Official Project? Or a SIG? What about Marketing? What about Live CD? --g ------------------------------------------------------------- Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Project || fedoraproject.org Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors ------------------------------------------------------------- On Mon, 24 Apr 2006, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Mon, 2006-04-24 at 14:14 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > PMCs > > * Which projects are official Fedora projects? > > * Who chairs the projects? > > * What's the current status of the projects? > > Fedora Legacy is an official Fedora Project. > > I chair this project. > > Current status of this project is long winded, but basically we're still > pushing updates (slowly), we need more people that can do package > pushing, but we need a better infrastructure before I want to go too far > down that road. I posted a request for resources to the board, that > discussion is (still?) ongoing. > > -- > Jesse Keating > Release Engineer: Fedora > From rdieter at math.unl.edu Mon Apr 24 19:37:00 2006 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 14:37:00 -0500 Subject: [fab] I have a few questions for the board. In-Reply-To: References: <1145902993.2738.29.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <444D28DC.6080503@math.unl.edu> Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > Thanks, Jesse, but the real question was: > > Where are we documenting this stuff, clearly, and are we keeping up with > it? > > Is Ambassadors an Official Project? > What about Marketing? > What about Live CD? AFAICT, yes, no, yes, yes, respectively: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Projects -- Rex From rdieter at math.unl.edu Mon Apr 24 19:39:29 2006 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 14:39:29 -0500 Subject: [fab] I have a few questions for the board. In-Reply-To: <444D28DC.6080503@math.unl.edu> References: <1145902993.2738.29.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <444D28DC.6080503@math.unl.edu> Message-ID: <444D2971.9030509@math.unl.edu> Rex Dieter wrote: > Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > >> Thanks, Jesse, but the real question was: >> >> Where are we documenting this stuff, clearly, and are we keeping up >> with it? >> >> Is Ambassadors an Official Project? >> What about Marketing? >> What about Live CD? > > AFAICT, yes, no, yes, yes, respectively: > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Projects Ugh, more answers than questions (I trimmed out 1 ?), forget the no. -- Rex From chitlesh at fedoraproject.org Mon Apr 24 19:43:51 2006 From: chitlesh at fedoraproject.org (Chitlesh GOORAH) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 21:43:51 +0200 Subject: [fab] I have a few questions for the board. In-Reply-To: References: <1145902993.2738.29.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <13dbfe4f0604241243o23fc5dc0s42f413c46ffce24f@mail.gmail.com> > What about Live CD? > About The Kadischi Project, Till now there are no permanent maintainer. JasperHartline, Tashiro and I are maintaining it. But in the long run, JeremyKatz said it too, Kadischi will continue to break for any changes in Fedora Core, hence no output or a bad one if any. So we are now looking forward to JeremyKatz's remastered Kadischi and we will follow that direction. Documentation about Kadischi: With the collaboration of JasperHartline, Im maintaining the docs on the wiki and furthermore we have Jasper's man pages. These will utterly change with JeremyKatz's remastered Kadischi With Kadischi still under heavy development, The Kadischi Project is not yet blessed to be part of the Official Fedora projects. There is no steering community, all discussions are done on the live-cd mailing list. regards, Chitlesh Goorah -- http://clunixchit.blogspot.com From mwebbink at redhat.com Mon Apr 24 19:44:07 2006 From: mwebbink at redhat.com (Mark Webbink) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 15:44:07 -0400 Subject: [fab] Fedora as Free Software? In-Reply-To: <1145673222.3863.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1145657196.4688.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1145664506.13271.2.camel@cutter> <1145673222.3863.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <444D2A87.7010803@redhat.com> Michael, I think if you look carefully, there are a lot of packages in Fedora that are licensed under licenses the FSF does not believe to be Free. They are, however, open source. If RMS is willing to drop his compatibility issues around these licenses, then FEDORA could be Free. Until then, RMS is being inconsistent if he says, in one breath, that these licenses are not Free but that he is still willing to call the distribution Free even if it includes them. But then again, when you are a dictator, you can make any rules you want. Patrick is right when we say Fedora has already been FOSS. I see little value to be gained beyond that position. Mark Michael Tiemann wrote: >On Fri, 2006-04-21 at 20:08 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > > >>>I'm wondering what you guys think about changing the tilt of Fedora from >>>open source to free software. Namely, saying that the license should >>>meet the free software definition ( >>> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html ) and then mentioning that >>>OSI-certified licenses (with the exception of the Reciprocal Public >>>License, which we're going to reevaluate) are a good list, as well as >>>the free software licenses that are listed on the FSF website. >>> >>>The goal is to make Fedora a distribution that the FSF can positively >>>endorse. I think we're really close. Any reason to not try to go all >>>the way? >>> >>> >>Do we have an idea of what we would need to drop to be completely free >>software definition compliant? >> >> > >I think the main thing is declaring it to be free software ourselves. >We miss the mark by not actually saying it explicitly. > > > >>What would we lose? >> >>I guess a few rpm queries on license should work. >>what licenses are we looking for? >> >> > >I've only found one problematic license (the Reciprocal Public License), >and I seriously doubt that license is attached to any software we >actually ship. > >Now, it could be that I'm monstrously in the dark, and that we ship non- >free drivers with Fedora, but I don't think so... > >M > >_______________________________________________ >fedora-advisory-board mailing list >fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jkeating at redhat.com Mon Apr 24 19:47:54 2006 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 15:47:54 -0400 Subject: [fab] I have a few questions for the board. In-Reply-To: References: <1145902993.2738.29.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1145908074.2738.35.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> On Mon, 2006-04-24 at 15:30 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > Thanks, Jesse, but the real question was: > > Where are we documenting this stuff, clearly, and are we keeping up > with > it? define 'stuff'. IE what is an official project and what isn't? Or the current status of each project? -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Apr 24 19:54:32 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 01:24:32 +0530 Subject: [fab] I have a few questions for the board. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1145908472.3799.69.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> On Mon, 2006-04-24 at 14:14 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > PMCs > * Which projects are official Fedora projects? http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Projects > * Who chairs the projects? Not every project has a clear chair or leader. Extras - Thorsten Leemhuis, Documentation - Karsten Wade, Ambassadors & Marketing - Alex Maier, L10N - Aman Alam & Chester Cheng does. > * What's the current status of the projects? Extras - Thriving well. Ongoing improvements in processes and governance model. Documentation - Well defined processes and a strong core team. Needs more actual contributions. Planned RHEL docs licensing would be a great boost. Legacy - needs more visibility, contributors, infrastructure. Ambassadors - Pretty active. Lot of events and discussions. Marketing - Needs more leadership and creativeness. Translation - Very large number of contributors. Needs more visibility. Websites - Wiki is active. Good number of contributors. Plone based site planned to be launched. Infrastructure - Seems to be doing well. Live CD - Jeremy Katz seems to be leading the development side now. We have many interested contributors. > * Where can I find the authoritative answers to these questions? I am not sure how to authoritatively define the "status" of a project. What information are you looking for here? > > SIGs > * Where's the authoritative list of current SIGs? As defined within Extras, http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Extras/SIGs > * Who's responsible for keeping them alive? The projects which as a steering committee and chair has clearly identifiable leaders responsible for it. Over time we can hope all of the active projects gets this kind of arrangement. Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Apr 24 19:56:49 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 01:26:49 +0530 Subject: [fab] I have a few questions for the board. In-Reply-To: <1145908472.3799.69.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> References: <1145908472.3799.69.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1145908609.3799.70.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> On Tue, 2006-04-25 at 01:24 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > On Mon, 2006-04-24 at 14:14 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > PMCs > > * Which projects are official Fedora projects? > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Projects > > > * Who chairs the projects? > > Not every project has a clear chair or leader. Extras - Thorsten > Leemhuis, Documentation - Karsten Wade, Ambassadors & Marketing - Alex > Maier, L10N - Aman Alam & Chester Cheng does. Left out Legacy - Jesse Keating. Sorry. Rahul From mspevack at redhat.com Mon Apr 24 20:44:46 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 16:44:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] I have a few questions for the board. In-Reply-To: <1145908074.2738.35.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> References: <1145902993.2738.29.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <1145908074.2738.35.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Apr 2006, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Mon, 2006-04-24 at 15:30 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: >> >> Thanks, Jesse, but the real question was: >> >> Where are we documenting this stuff, clearly, and are we keeping up >> with >> it? > > define 'stuff'. IE what is an official project and what isn't? Or the > current status of each project? He means both. We talked about this in our first board meeting. Really, at this point it's gating on someone (probably me) doing the leg-work to make all of this information as clear as possible. The Weekly Reports is doing some of this. I need to look into that more and expand on it. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Projects/WeeklyReports -- Max Spevack + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/~mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From nman64 at n-man.com Mon Apr 24 23:22:39 2006 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick W. Barnes) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 18:22:39 -0500 Subject: [fab] I have a few questions for the board. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200604241822.41551.nman64@n-man.com> Below are my thoughts, for what they're worth. If any of them are incorrect, we need to make them correct. ;-) On Monday 24 April 2006 13:14, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > PMCs > * Which projects are official Fedora projects? http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Projects > * Who chairs the projects? http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Projects (Follow the links. If you have to click more than two, I call that a bug.) > * What's the current status of the projects? http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Projects (Weekly Reports are linked to from here. We need to keep them current.) > * Where can I find the authoritative answers to these questions? http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Projects > > SIGs > * Where's the authoritative list of current SIGs? http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Extras/SIGs (Are these going to remain Extras-only?) > * Who's responsible for keeping them alive? Now that's a good question. ;-) -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com http://www.n-man.com/ Have I been helpful? Rate my assistance! http://rate.affero.net/nman64/ -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stickster at gmail.com Mon Apr 24 23:51:54 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 19:51:54 -0400 Subject: [fab] Plone Bootcamp In-Reply-To: References: <1145803768.3046.71.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1145922714.6376.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2006-04-24 at 10:51 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: > On Sun, 23 Apr 2006, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > > http://plone.org/news/zpugdc-plone-bootcamp > > > > There's a very low-priced Plone Bootcamp for developers going on in > > Washington, DC next month. Registration is supposed to open this week. > > I didn't know if anyone was interested in going to such a thing, but > > with our own Plone coming someday soonish, would it be worthwhile to > > sponsor someone's (or someones') attendance from Websites? > > Who's the best choice? Patrick Barnes comes immediately to mind... others? -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Tue Apr 25 00:11:57 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 20:11:57 -0400 Subject: [fab] Schedule notes Message-ID: <1145923917.6376.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> For FDSCo and Board information: * I will not be able to make tomorrow's (25 Apr 2006) FDSCo meeting, since I will be supervising some work for an office relocation which will keep me late at the office. I'll look for the notes and minutes to get up to speed. * At my new office, our new broadband line is not ready, and may not arrive for some time. In the meantime we will be sharing a pipe with another group, and their various and poorly-conceived security regulations may make it impossible (or at least very difficult) for me to be active online (IRC, etc.) during the day. I'll try to take care of as much work as I can after hours; your patience is appreciated! -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From nman64 at n-man.com Tue Apr 25 00:38:39 2006 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick W. Barnes) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 19:38:39 -0500 Subject: [fab] Plone Bootcamp In-Reply-To: <1145922714.6376.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1145803768.3046.71.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1145922714.6376.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200604241938.42263.nman64@n-man.com> On Monday 24 April 2006 18:51, "Paul W. Frields" wrote: > On Mon, 2006-04-24 at 10:51 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: > > On Sun, 23 Apr 2006, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > > http://plone.org/news/zpugdc-plone-bootcamp > > > > > > There's a very low-priced Plone Bootcamp for developers going on in > > > Washington, DC next month. Registration is supposed to open this week. > > > I didn't know if anyone was interested in going to such a thing, but > > > with our own Plone coming someday soonish, would it be worthwhile to > > > sponsor someone's (or someones') attendance from Websites? > > > > Who's the best choice? > > Patrick Barnes comes immediately to mind... others? -1 I fear it would be too costly if I could even manage it. Is there anyone in the region that would be interested? A few thoughts: * The person should probably be in the region. This probably isn't worth big travel expenses. * The person should probably be a member of Documentation or Infrastructure. * The person should be a good note-taker. ;-) Zope and Plone are powerful and complex, but we should seldom need to dive into the depths of the tools. The extra knowledge from this event could be useful, but most of our people will probably never need it. Someone who is familiar with Python and web design could probably put this to the best use, and they could hopefully share what they learn with the rest of us. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com http://www.n-man.com/ Have I been helpful? Rate my assistance! http://rate.affero.net/nman64/ -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: not available URL: From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Tue Apr 25 00:48:24 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 20:48:24 -0400 Subject: [fab] Plone Bootcamp In-Reply-To: <200604241938.42263.nman64@n-man.com> References: <1145803768.3046.71.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1145922714.6376.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200604241938.42263.nman64@n-man.com> Message-ID: <1145926104.31773.2.camel@cutter> On Mon, 2006-04-24 at 19:38 -0500, Patrick W. Barnes wrote: > -1 > > I fear it would be too costly if I could even manage it. Is there anyone in > the region that would be interested? > > A few thoughts: > > * The person should probably be in the region. > This probably isn't worth big travel expenses. > * The person should probably be a member of Documentation or Infrastructure. > * The person should be a good note-taker. ;-) > Sounds like Paul or Karsten - though neither of them are in the area. -sv From stickster at gmail.com Tue Apr 25 01:19:22 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 21:19:22 -0400 Subject: [fab] Plone Bootcamp In-Reply-To: <1145926104.31773.2.camel@cutter> References: <1145803768.3046.71.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1145922714.6376.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200604241938.42263.nman64@n-man.com> <1145926104.31773.2.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1145927963.6376.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2006-04-24 at 20:48 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > On Mon, 2006-04-24 at 19:38 -0500, Patrick W. Barnes wrote: > > > -1 > > > > I fear it would be too costly if I could even manage it. Is there anyone in > > the region that would be interested? > > > > A few thoughts: > > > > * The person should probably be in the region. > > This probably isn't worth big travel expenses. > > * The person should probably be a member of Documentation or Infrastructure. > > * The person should be a good note-taker. ;-) > > > > Sounds like Paul or Karsten - though neither of them are in the area. I'm in the DC area but I can't attend. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From laroche at redhat.com Tue Apr 25 07:57:13 2006 From: laroche at redhat.com (Florian La Roche) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 09:57:13 +0200 Subject: [fab] Proposed Plan for Split of Fedora-Announce-List In-Reply-To: <444CF7EB.5080908@redhat.com> References: <4444A69C.3070601@gtw.net> <1145361222.349.111.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1145374211.2465.239.camel@erato.phig.org> <1145374547.349.133.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1145375663.1568.50.camel@cutter> <1145376180.1568.53.camel@cutter> <444CF7EB.5080908@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20060425075713.GA7157@dudweiler.stuttgart.redhat.com> > 3) Make package announcements backed by a database > -------------------------------------------------- > We should have all of this information stored in a database. Generated > from this database are a number of both push & pull representations like: > - Package update and security advisory list announcements > - RSS feeds > - Canonical package update website (links from RSS feed point here) > - Metadata for pirut and pup > > http://people.redhat.com/wtogami/temp/fedora-updates.png > Luke Macken's previous work on the Fedora Update tracking system that we > currently use only internally give us a head start in these goals. It > would be fairly easy to build upon this existing foundation, but only > after we achieve a few other objectives. (Putting the Fedora Updates > system in the public requires some design considerations for proper > handling of Embargo and possibly other aspects related to the Fedora > distribution merge.) I am sure Karel Zak would also contribute to the database and addon infrastructure. Warren, are you leading up the above items and is there some official "collection point" (wiki?) on where the details are put together? regards, Florian La Roche From mspevack at redhat.com Tue Apr 25 13:40:44 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 09:40:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] I have a few questions for the board. In-Reply-To: <1145908472.3799.69.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> References: <1145908472.3799.69.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Apr 2006, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> * Who chairs the projects? > > Not every project has a clear chair or leader. That right there is something that the Board needs to fix. --Max -- Max Spevack + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/~mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From matt at domsch.com Tue Apr 25 15:18:51 2006 From: matt at domsch.com (Matt Domsch) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 10:18:51 -0500 Subject: [fab] I have a few questions for the board. In-Reply-To: References: <1145908472.3799.69.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20060425151851.GA6925@domsch.com> On Tue, Apr 25, 2006 at 09:40:44AM -0400, Max Spevack wrote: > On Tue, 25 Apr 2006, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > >>* Who chairs the projects? > > > >Not every project has a clear chair or leader. > > That right there is something that the Board needs to fix. Leader (perhaps aka maintainer), absolutely. Chair of a committee, yes, but dependent on size of the project of course. -Matt From katzj at redhat.com Tue Apr 25 15:27:46 2006 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 11:27:46 -0400 Subject: [fab] I have a few questions for the board. In-Reply-To: <20060425151851.GA6925@domsch.com> References: <1145908472.3799.69.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <20060425151851.GA6925@domsch.com> Message-ID: <1145978866.9680.19.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> On Tue, 2006-04-25 at 10:18 -0500, Matt Domsch wrote: > On Tue, Apr 25, 2006 at 09:40:44AM -0400, Max Spevack wrote: > > On Tue, 25 Apr 2006, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > >>* Who chairs the projects? > > > > > >Not every project has a clear chair or leader. > > > > That right there is something that the Board needs to fix. > > Leader (perhaps aka maintainer), absolutely. Chair of a committee, > yes, but dependent on size of the project of course. Agreed -- we shouldn't be imposing that everything which is a project or SIG be run like it's a government. Especially in cases where we're talking about chunks of coding, strong leadership in the form of a project maintainer is likely to often work better. This is one of the things which is often pointed to as a reason for why the Linux kernel is more successful than the various free BSDs Jeremy From katzj at redhat.com Tue Apr 25 15:47:34 2006 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 11:47:34 -0400 Subject: [fab] I have a few questions for the board. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1145980055.9680.37.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> On Mon, 2006-04-24 at 14:14 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: ... And for the real ten million dollar question -- what's the difference between a project/PMC and a SIG? I don't think trying to answer your questions makes any sense without understanding that first. Especially as thus far, any blessing as such has been ad-hoc at best. For taking a pass at trying to brainstorm some of the answers, I think there are really kind of three different things at work here. Trying to fit each of them into the same structure doesn't necessarily make any sense. First is the current PMCs. These are groups that are formed for purposes of advancing "a cause". Good examples include Extras, Legacy, Ambassadors, and Docs. They have leadership that's going to tend to be more committee based with someone in a "chair" type of role. A second set would be things which are more "code projects" where the goal is to write some code and have the software be more of the end goal. There's a fuzzy line between this and the PMCs above, but I think it might be important to explore that line and actually better define it. Because software development doesn't work like the advancement of causes, even in open source -- instead, there tends to be a strong leader who is the maintainer that has the start of some code and then other people help work on it. Things which are big "code projects" in the Fedora space are more like the Directory Server. There are also a lot of smaller examples with things like anaconda or pretty much any of the other software that we ship and develop ourselves. The third set are SIGs. These are things which are probably somewhat incubatory. Some of them will grow over time to be be full-fledged PMC type things (eg, I can see the Extras Games stuff ending up doing so), some will get past incubation and actually get take-up for code development (this is where most of the current live CD effort is likely to end up), some may stay in sort of the incubatory state indefinitely and some will wither away due to lack of sufficient interest. I think all of these could be healthy outcomes depending on the SIG. This is all just my impression/opinion. Once there's that, then we can work out the gnarly details of how do we maintain lists of them, etc. Plus coming up with cooler names for them ;) Jeremy From fedora at leemhuis.info Tue Apr 25 17:31:33 2006 From: fedora at leemhuis.info (Thorsten Leemhuis) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 19:31:33 +0200 Subject: [fab] I have a few questions for the board. In-Reply-To: <1145980055.9680.37.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> References: <1145980055.9680.37.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1145986293.2325.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> Am Dienstag, den 25.04.2006, 11:47 -0400 schrieb Jeremy Katz: > On Mon, 2006-04-24 at 14:14 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > ... > > And for the real ten million dollar question -- what's the difference > between a project/PMC and a SIG? Good question :) IMHO it should work like this (or maybe: IMHO we should have something like the following -- if we name it "SIG" might be a different discussion): Extras, Legacy, Ambassadors, Docs, Core (?) and other "big" projects/PMC's to be started in the future are the "main" Fedora projects. When there is a large sub-area of work (to give the example of Extras: People that watch security lists and file bugs for open issues, people that take care of QA, people that are interested in reviewing and maintaining games or perl-stuff) then it can be handled by a special interest group (SIG) that should consist of at least three (five?) people. That SIG should have a leader and maybe a small (two or three people) "Board". The leader and/or the board report to the lead of the project/PMC (e.g. in the Extras case to FESCo). [...] > The third set are SIGs. These are things which are probably somewhat > incubatory. Some of them will grow over time to be be full-fledged PMC > type things (eg, I can see the Extras Games stuff ending up doing so), Well, the "Extras Games stuff" IMHO still should remain as a sub-project of Extras that reports to FESCo normally. Just my 2 cent that look at it from the Extras perspective. CU thl -- Thorsten Leemhuis From gdk at redhat.com Tue Apr 25 17:42:50 2006 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 13:42:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] I have a few questions for the board. In-Reply-To: <1145978866.9680.19.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> References: <1145908472.3799.69.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <20060425151851.GA6925@domsch.com> <1145978866.9680.19.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Apr 2006, Jeremy Katz wrote: > > Leader (perhaps aka maintainer), absolutely. Chair of a committee, > > yes, but dependent on size of the project of course. > > Agreed -- we shouldn't be imposing that everything which is a project or > SIG be run like it's a government. Not saying we should. But somebody needs to be accountable for the basic tasks of every PMC, at the very least. Meaning: * Someone who holds periodic meetings, and makes sure that the appropriate people know about them and attend them. * Someone who ensures that *simple* public minutes are provided for these meetings. i.e. a few paragraphs, max. * Someone who keeps an updated list of "tasks to be completed", and drives people to complete the tasks they've promised to complete. * Someone who has the authority to make hard decisions -- or failing that, acts as the conduit when the Board makes hard decisions. >From my perspective, these are the items that differentiate a PMC from a SIG. A PMC has a clear charter to "get stuff done" -- and the mechanisms by which the PMCs do that should be as consistent as possible, so that the outside observer can stay informed without too much trouble. What I am *NOT* talking about: * Someone who holds lots of votes. * Someone who omphaloskepsizes endlessly about Procedural Issues. > Especially in cases where we're talking about chunks of coding, strong > leadership in the form of a project maintainer is likely to often work > better. This is one of the things which is often pointed to as a reason > for why the Linux kernel is more successful than the various free BSDs Strong coders are great at moving a project along, but they tend to suck at communicating the progress of the project -- and that communication is one of the big things that's missing. People just don't have time to follow every mailing list to keep up; even the Board will be incapable of it. This kind of high-level communication also takes time and effort to do well, and it can be thankless. Maybe the coder-project-lead appoints someone to do this work. Doesn't matter, really, but ultimately, the Leader is responsible for everything getting done. Here's what I'm basically asking for, I guess -- maybe a simple wiki page that looks like this: === OFFICIAL FEDORA PROJECTS. Fedora Extras. * Mission: The one-paragraph missions statement that every Fedora PMC should have. * Project Lead: Thorsten Leemhuis (link) * Meetings: (whenever) * Minutes: (link) (maybe to a blog / rss feed?) * Tasks: (link) Fedora Docs. * Mission: ... ...and so on, and so on. It also calls these open questions: 1. Is Fedora Directory Server a real project, by this standard? 2. How about Fedora Translations? 3. How about Fedora Live CD? === SIGs, on the other hand, can be dead simple. Just a descriptive paragraph and a link to a mailing list. My $0.02. --g ------------------------------------------------------------- Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Project || fedoraproject.org Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors ------------------------------------------------------------- From katzj at redhat.com Tue Apr 25 18:28:12 2006 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 14:28:12 -0400 Subject: [fab] I have a few questions for the board. In-Reply-To: References: <1145908472.3799.69.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <20060425151851.GA6925@domsch.com> <1145978866.9680.19.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1145989692.9680.57.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> On Tue, 2006-04-25 at 13:42 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > On Tue, 25 Apr 2006, Jeremy Katz wrote: > > > Leader (perhaps aka maintainer), absolutely. Chair of a committee, > > > yes, but dependent on size of the project of course. > > > > Agreed -- we shouldn't be imposing that everything which is a project or > > SIG be run like it's a government. > > Not saying we should. But somebody needs to be accountable for the basic > tasks of every PMC, at the very least. Meaning: This gets to the heart of my other mail, though... eg, there are definitely types of projects for which meetings aren't the answer for really _any_ question. And trying to put that structure around them could well get to "well, why would I be a Fedora project then?" The idea of groups with meetings, task lists, etc are all good for certain types of projects (eg, extras, marketing, etc). But for things which largely revolve around code, then I just don't see it being successful. It's the difference between the Linux kernel and the BSD kernel communities. So it all depends on what _kinds_ of projects we're talking about. [snip] > It also calls these open questions: > > 1. Is Fedora Directory Server a real project, by this standard? > 2. How about Fedora Translations? > 3. How about Fedora Live CD? Yep, and I really do think there is or needs to be a third classification. While your set of things works for some classes of projects, for others, I think the overhead is more likely to a) turn the project off of being a "Fedora" project or b) run it into the ground. Maybe I'm wrong. Or maybe we don't care about having those as Fedora projects. But I know that a lot of what we currently actively work on falls into those camps. > === > > SIGs, on the other hand, can be dead simple. Just a descriptive paragraph > and a link to a mailing list. ... or maybe, we just roll the things which don't meet the above up and call them a SIG? Heck, maybe it doesn't really matter at the end of the day :) Jeremy From gdk at redhat.com Tue Apr 25 18:40:22 2006 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 14:40:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] I have a few questions for the board. In-Reply-To: <1145989692.9680.57.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> References: <1145908472.3799.69.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <20060425151851.GA6925@domsch.com> <1145978866.9680.19.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> <1145989692.9680.57.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Apr 2006, Jeremy Katz wrote: > ... or maybe, we just roll the things which don't meet the above up and > call them a SIG? +1 to this. Basically: PMCs demand coordination and communication. SIGs don't. So we can have the "Anaconda SIG" and the "stateless SIG" and the "Live CD SIG" and the "Fedora Games SIG", and it's a fancy name for... a mailing list? --g ------------------------------------------------------------- Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Project || fedoraproject.org Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors ------------------------------------------------------------- From katzj at redhat.com Tue Apr 25 18:47:35 2006 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 14:47:35 -0400 Subject: [fab] I have a few questions for the board. In-Reply-To: References: <1145908472.3799.69.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <20060425151851.GA6925@domsch.com> <1145978866.9680.19.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> <1145989692.9680.57.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1145990855.9680.69.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> On Tue, 2006-04-25 at 14:40 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > On Tue, 25 Apr 2006, Jeremy Katz wrote: > > ... or maybe, we just roll the things which don't meet the above up and > > call them a SIG? > > +1 to this. > > Basically: PMCs demand coordination and communication. SIGs don't. > > So we can have the "Anaconda SIG" and the "stateless SIG" and the "Live CD > SIG" and the "Fedora Games SIG", and it's a fancy name for... a mailing > list? List plus potentially some hosting of $SCM and potentially a way to push some releases if we're talking about something that's a software project. It just seems weird to call what's actually a software project a SIG. And I think the needs of the two are somewhat different and should be handled a little differently, but we can take it as it comes. I think it does mean that our number of "projects" is less, but perhaps that's a good thing anyway Jeremy From nman64 at n-man.com Tue Apr 25 19:01:38 2006 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick W. Barnes) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 14:01:38 -0500 Subject: [fab] I have a few questions for the board. In-Reply-To: <1145989692.9680.57.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> References: <1145989692.9680.57.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <200604251401.41205.nman64@n-man.com> On Tuesday 25 April 2006 13:28, Jeremy Katz wrote: > On Tue, 2006-04-25 at 13:42 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > It also calls these open questions: > > > > 1. Is Fedora Directory Server a real project, by this standard? > > 2. How about Fedora Translations? > > 3. How about Fedora Live CD? > > Yep, and I really do think there is or needs to be a third > classification. While your set of things works for some classes of > projects, for others, I think the overhead is more likely to a) turn the > project off of being a "Fedora" project or b) run it into the ground. > Maybe I'm wrong. Or maybe we don't care about having those as Fedora > projects. But I know that a lot of what we currently actively work on > falls into those camps. > Thus far, I've tried to use simple classification to separate efforts that are organized and worthy of things like meetings and efforts that are young or too small or simple to warrant meetings and committees. Although I haven't stuck to it 100%, and can't provide specific guidelines, I've tried to classify the former as "projects" and the latter as "programs". I've had to do this in order to maintain related wiki pages and to establish the relationships between many of the smaller efforts. The programs fall underneath projects, such as the way that Free Media falls under Distribution or Word of Mouth falls under Ambassadors. These small programs often do not need their own infrastructure or regular meetings. They do, however, have leads. Those leads can report the program's status to the project which oversees it. IMHO, we should never have a program or SIG that doesn't have a parent project. Those parent projects can provide the oversight and drive to keep the program going, and they can do so without smothering it. There are also cases, such as Websites, where meetings can be deemed unnecessary for a period of time. Websites suspended its meetings since there was never enough to discuss. They will be resumed when the need arises. There are other projects which may also have fewer needs. The Artwork project also does not currently conduct meetings. Each of these projects still has leadership and structure. I believe it should be up to the leadership of each project to determine what the needs of that project are. As long as the projects are maintained and someone is able to track their status, I don't think we need to mandate meetings, schedules, or task lists. I believe that Translation and Localization should be very closely allied, and together should be considered a formal project. I believe that the Live CD project should also qualify as a formal project, with Kadischi's development as a program beneath it. Each of these projects need a little love and guidance. FDS should be working on becoming a formal Fedora project, but it needs to be brought closer to the community before I can name it in one breath with the other key projects. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com http://www.n-man.com/ Have I been helpful? Rate my assistance! http://rate.affero.net/nman64/ -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sopwith at redhat.com Tue Apr 25 22:18:35 2006 From: sopwith at redhat.com (Elliot Lee) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 18:18:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] I have a few questions for the board. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Apr 2006, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > PMCs > * Which projects are official Fedora projects? > * Who chairs the projects? > * What's the current status of the projects? Fedora Administration & Infrastructure Project me Active :) Best, -- Elliot From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Wed Apr 26 04:17:55 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 00:17:55 -0400 Subject: [fab] The next board once this board is tired of being the board Message-ID: <1146025075.4866.15.camel@cutter> Hey folks, I promised I would get this thread started so I thought I should stop waffling and do it. Things I need help figuring out: - How do we determine: 1. who gets in and under what circumstances for the red hat filled seats of the board. This is really an issue internal to red hat but the part that gets complex for the board is how and who we talk to about getting rid of someone who is a problem and who fills one of the red hat seats. 2. Placement of community seats: a. Do we have elections or is it all placed? i. If elections how often to have elections (proposed: every 2 releases) ii. how to have the elections (who votes?) b. If appointments: how do we handle nominations and/or do we want to have a certain kind of minimum standards for appointed persons (membership/active contribution to another project inside fedora, etc) In the first meeting of the board we more or less suggested this: 1. community seats are elected 2. community seats have new elections every 2 releases 3. the rh seats will be settled by rh internally 4. if the board generally is unhappy with the board member it should be taken up with project lead 5. if the board is generally unhappy with the project lead then max has us all arrested and appoints a new board with brand new rubber stamps to approve all of his excellent and, may I say, expertly drafted decrees. since this is about seats and what not and ostensibly about elections I'm sure everyone has something to say/suggest or other models to follow from other organizations. Please, discuss. -sv From kwade at redhat.com Wed Apr 26 13:37:05 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 06:37:05 -0700 Subject: [fab] The next board once this board is tired of being the board In-Reply-To: <1146025075.4866.15.camel@cutter> References: <1146025075.4866.15.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1146058627.25148.689.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2006-04-26 at 00:17 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > 1. who gets in and under what circumstances for the red hat filled > seats of the board. This is really an issue internal to red hat but the > part that gets complex for the board is how and who we talk to about > getting rid of someone who is a problem and who fills one of the red hat > seats. At the minimum, I'd expect the sitting board to recommend who from Red Hat could/should fill seats. > ii. how to have the elections (who votes?) Must have Fedora account to get into the voting? However, that disturbs the anonymity. We'd need to code an open application that shows how the authentication confirms that someone exists in the account system and marks that they have voted, while not associating the specific vote with the individual voter. The strongest members of the community are the self-selected who go through the process to create an account. That seems like the best voter demographic we could get without picking them. :) - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Editor * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Fedora Documentation Project http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject Learn. Network. Experience open source. Red Hat Summit Nashville | May 30 - June 2, 2006 Learn more: http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Apr 26 13:47:00 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 06:47:00 -0700 Subject: [fab] I have a few questions for the board. In-Reply-To: <200604251401.41205.nman64@n-man.com> References: <1145989692.9680.57.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> <200604251401.41205.nman64@n-man.com> Message-ID: <1146059221.25148.693.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2006-04-25 at 14:01 -0500, Patrick W. Barnes wrote: > Thus far, I've tried to use simple classification to separate efforts that are > organized and worthy of things like meetings and efforts that are young or > too small or simple to warrant meetings and committees. Although I haven't > stuck to it 100%, and can't provide specific guidelines, I've tried to > classify the former as "projects" and the latter as "programs". I've had to > do this in order to maintain related wiki pages and to establish the > relationships between many of the smaller efforts. The problem with this usage is that it is the exact opposite of the usage of the two terms in project management.[1] A program is a large, overarching project that consists of multiple projects. A program manager is a PM over many projects that have their own PMs, etc. If we use this language backwards from the way the rest of IT uses it, we're more likely to foment confusion. [1] I just made Jeremy's blood pressure go up a few ticks, but recall that there are always useful things to learn from a discipline even if you don't adhere to it. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Editor * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Fedora Documentation Project http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject Learn. Network. Experience open source. Red Hat Summit Nashville | May 30 - June 2, 2006 Learn more: http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From katzj at redhat.com Wed Apr 26 14:30:57 2006 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 10:30:57 -0400 Subject: [fab] The next board once this board is tired of being the board In-Reply-To: <1146025075.4866.15.camel@cutter> References: <1146025075.4866.15.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1146061857.16554.5.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> On Wed, 2006-04-26 at 00:17 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > Things I need help figuring out: > - How do we determine: > 1. who gets in and under what circumstances for the red hat filled > seats of the board. This is really an issue internal to red hat but the > part that gets complex for the board is how and who we talk to about > getting rid of someone who is a problem and who fills one of the red hat > seats. Right -- large chunks of this are going to be due to what people are tasked with in their roles at Red Hat and that's likely to be the biggest source of some of this. As for getting rid of someone, going to the person in Max's role is probably best for the general case. If the problem is the person in that role, then go to one of the other people. Unfortunately, I don't have much in the way of better suggestions than that. > 2. Placement of community seats: > a. Do we have elections or is it all placed? > i. If elections how often to have elections (proposed: every 2 > releases) I thought the suggestion was to stagger things -- essentially, have an election every release but only turn over half of the community seats. This will help to ensure continuity and "memory" Jeremy From jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org Wed Apr 26 14:41:06 2006 From: jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org (Josh Boyer) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 09:41:06 -0500 Subject: [fab] The next board once this board is tired of being the board In-Reply-To: <1146061857.16554.5.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> References: <1146025075.4866.15.camel@cutter> <1146061857.16554.5.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20060426144106.GA26817@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> On Wed, Apr 26, 2006 at 10:30:57AM -0400, Jeremy Katz wrote: > On Wed, 2006-04-26 at 00:17 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > > 2. Placement of community seats: > > a. Do we have elections or is it all placed? > > i. If elections how often to have elections (proposed: every 2 > > releases) > > I thought the suggestion was to stagger things -- essentially, have an > election every release but only turn over half of the community seats. > This will help to ensure continuity and "memory" I (and others) have been pushing for that in the current FESCo discussions. But, I don't think the seats _have_ to be turned over. It is an election, so if the same people get elected again that's fine too. It's more about the length of a term and making sure the stagger is setup so that at most half the seats can be turned at one time. josh From katzj at redhat.com Wed Apr 26 14:44:18 2006 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 10:44:18 -0400 Subject: [fab] The next board once this board is tired of being the board In-Reply-To: <20060426144106.GA26817@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> References: <1146025075.4866.15.camel@cutter> <1146061857.16554.5.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> <20060426144106.GA26817@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: <1146062659.16554.17.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> On Wed, 2006-04-26 at 09:41 -0500, Josh Boyer wrote: > On Wed, Apr 26, 2006 at 10:30:57AM -0400, Jeremy Katz wrote: > > On Wed, 2006-04-26 at 00:17 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > > > 2. Placement of community seats: > > > a. Do we have elections or is it all placed? > > > i. If elections how often to have elections (proposed: every 2 > > > releases) > > > > I thought the suggestion was to stagger things -- essentially, have an > > election every release but only turn over half of the community seats. > > This will help to ensure continuity and "memory" > > I (and others) have been pushing for that in the current FESCo discussions. > But, I don't think the seats _have_ to be turned over. It is an election, so > if the same people get elected again that's fine too. It's more about the > length of a term and making sure the stagger is setup so that at most half the > seats can be turned at one time. Right, my wording was imprecise. The seats don't have to be turned over, just up for re-election Jeremy From nman64 at n-man.com Wed Apr 26 15:44:17 2006 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick W. Barnes) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 10:44:17 -0500 Subject: [fab] I have a few questions for the board. In-Reply-To: <1146059221.25148.693.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <200604251401.41205.nman64@n-man.com> <1146059221.25148.693.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <200604261044.21319.nman64@n-man.com> On Wednesday 26 April 2006 08:47, Karsten Wade wrote: > The problem with this usage is that it is the exact opposite of the > usage of the two terms in project management.[1] > > A program is a large, overarching project that consists of multiple > projects. A program manager is a PM over many projects that have their > own PMs, etc. > > If we use this language backwards from the way the rest of IT uses it, > we're more likely to foment confusion. > > [1] I just made Jeremy's blood pressure go up a few ticks, but recall > that there are always useful things to learn from a discipline even if > you don't adhere to it. > I certainly wouldn't mind using the two terms properly, but it would require a lot of changes, since we started out calling all of our big efforts "projects". The approach is sound, we just have to decide what words to use. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com http://www.n-man.com/ Have I been helpful? Rate my assistance! http://rate.affero.net/nman64/ -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rdieter at math.unl.edu Wed Apr 26 15:47:38 2006 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 10:47:38 -0500 Subject: [fab] I have a few questions for the board. In-Reply-To: <200604261044.21319.nman64@n-man.com> References: <200604251401.41205.nman64@n-man.com> <1146059221.25148.693.camel@erato.phig.org> <200604261044.21319.nman64@n-man.com> Message-ID: <444F961A.1090606@math.unl.edu> Patrick W. Barnes wrote: > On Wednesday 26 April 2006 08:47, Karsten Wade wrote: > >>The problem with this usage is that it is the exact opposite of the >>usage of the two terms in project management.[1] >> >>A program is a large, overarching project that consists of multiple >>projects. A program manager is a PM over many projects that have their >>own PMs, etc. >> >>If we use this language backwards from the way the rest of IT uses it, >>we're more likely to foment confusion. >> >>[1] I just made Jeremy's blood pressure go up a few ticks, but recall >>that there are always useful things to learn from a discipline even if >>you don't adhere to it. >> > > > I certainly wouldn't mind using the two terms properly, but it would require a > lot of changes, since we started out calling all of our big efforts > "projects". The approach is sound, we just have to decide what words to use. don't be too hasty... following that path could ulitmately lead to renaming Fedora Project -> Fedora Program :) -- Rex From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Wed Apr 26 15:52:40 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 11:52:40 -0400 Subject: [fab] I have a few questions for the board. In-Reply-To: <444F961A.1090606@math.unl.edu> References: <200604251401.41205.nman64@n-man.com> <1146059221.25148.693.camel@erato.phig.org> <200604261044.21319.nman64@n-man.com> <444F961A.1090606@math.unl.edu> Message-ID: <1146066760.6311.24.camel@cutter> On Wed, 2006-04-26 at 10:47 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote: > > > > I certainly wouldn't mind using the two terms properly, but it would require a > > lot of changes, since we started out calling all of our big efforts > > "projects". The approach is sound, we just have to decide what words to use. > > don't be too hasty... following that path could ulitmately lead to > renaming Fedora Project -> Fedora Program > :) oooooooooo I want to start a new program in fedora. it'll be called 12-step. The Fedora 12-step Program has a nice ring to it. -sv From smooge at gmail.com Wed Apr 26 16:23:18 2006 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 10:23:18 -0600 Subject: [fab] The next board once this board is tired of being the board In-Reply-To: <1146058627.25148.689.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1146025075.4866.15.camel@cutter> <1146058627.25148.689.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <80d7e4090604260923n2eb43736s12ed98a387c0ca2e@mail.gmail.com> On 4/26/06, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Wed, 2006-04-26 at 00:17 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > > > 1. who gets in and under what circumstances for the red hat filled > > seats of the board. This is really an issue internal to red hat but the > > part that gets complex for the board is how and who we talk to about > > getting rid of someone who is a problem and who fills one of the red hat > > seats. > > At the minimum, I'd expect the sitting board to recommend who from Red > Hat could/should fill seats. > > > ii. how to have the elections (who votes?) > > Must have Fedora account to get into the voting? > > However, that disturbs the anonymity. We'd need to code an open > application that shows how the authentication confirms that someone > exists in the account system and marks that they have voted, while not > associating the specific vote with the individual voter. > Are there programs there already? And if not would this not be a cool product for all the Diebold advocates to point out there is competition in the market (sorry.. the humour is a bit weak there). -- Stephen J Smoogen. CSIRT/Linux System Administrator From smooge at gmail.com Wed Apr 26 16:33:45 2006 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 10:33:45 -0600 Subject: [fab] I have a few questions for the board. In-Reply-To: <1146066760.6311.24.camel@cutter> References: <200604251401.41205.nman64@n-man.com> <1146059221.25148.693.camel@erato.phig.org> <200604261044.21319.nman64@n-man.com> <444F961A.1090606@math.unl.edu> <1146066760.6311.24.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <80d7e4090604260933j45b93885tb2698ffe77a43618@mail.gmail.com> On 4/26/06, seth vidal wrote: > On Wed, 2006-04-26 at 10:47 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote: > > > > > > I certainly wouldn't mind using the two terms properly, but it would require a > > > lot of changes, since we started out calling all of our big efforts > > > "projects". The approach is sound, we just have to decide what words to use. > > > > don't be too hasty... following that path could ulitmately lead to > > renaming Fedora Project -> Fedora Program > > :) > > oooooooooo > > I want to start a new program in fedora. > > it'll be called 12-step. > > The Fedora 12-step Program has a nice ring to it. > Also make sure that you patent it and put it in the commons. On a serious note, is there a better sub-term in program management for sub-projects. That way instead of s/Programs/xxxx/; s/Projects/Programs/; s/xxxx/Projects/; we just do a s/Programs/Sub-Project/ or whatever the correct term is? -- Stephen J Smoogen. CSIRT/Linux System Administrator From Christian.Iseli at licr.org Wed Apr 26 21:46:12 2006 From: Christian.Iseli at licr.org (Christian.Iseli at licr.org) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 23:46:12 +0200 Subject: [fab] The next board once this board is tired of being the board In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 26 Apr 2006 06:37:05 PDT." <1146058627.25148.689.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <200604262146.k3QLkJYr005096@mx3.redhat.com> kwade at redhat.com said: > However, that disturbs the anonymity. We'd need to code an open application > that shows how the authentication confirms that someone exists in the account > system and marks that they have voted, while not associating the specific > vote with the individual voter. Is anonymity really a requirement ? This is all supposed to be "open" after all, no? Christian P.S.: thanks to the kind person who took the trouble of adding me to this ml. From sopwith at redhat.com Wed Apr 26 21:47:52 2006 From: sopwith at redhat.com (Elliot Lee) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 17:47:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] The next board once this board is tired of being the board In-Reply-To: <200604262146.k3QLkJYr005096@mx3.redhat.com> References: <200604262146.k3QLkJYr005096@mx3.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 Christian.Iseli at licr.org wrote: > Is anonymity really a requirement ? This is all supposed to be "open" after > all, no? But perhaps "freedom isn't free" so to speak. :) The GNOME project has experimented with both anonymous and non-anonymous voting. I suggest finding out what their experiences have revealed... Best, -- Elliot From mspevack at redhat.com Wed Apr 26 22:09:33 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 18:09:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] The next board once this board is tired of being the board In-Reply-To: References: <200604262146.k3QLkJYr005096@mx3.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Apr 2006, Elliot Lee wrote: > On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 Christian.Iseli at licr.org wrote: > >> Is anonymity really a requirement ? This is all supposed to be "open" after >> all, no? > > But perhaps "freedom isn't free" so to speak. :) > > The GNOME project has experimented with both anonymous and non-anonymous > voting. I suggest finding out what their experiences have revealed... Looking forward to hearing the results of your research into that. :-) --Max -- Max Spevack + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/~mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Thu Apr 27 01:21:50 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 21:21:50 -0400 Subject: [fab] The next board once this board is tired of being the board In-Reply-To: <200604262146.k3QLkJYr005096@mx3.redhat.com> References: <200604262146.k3QLkJYr005096@mx3.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1146100910.12671.3.camel@cutter> On Wed, 2006-04-26 at 23:46 +0200, Christian.Iseli at licr.org wrote: > kwade at redhat.com said: > > However, that disturbs the anonymity. We'd need to code an open application > > that shows how the authentication confirms that someone exists in the account > > system and marks that they have voted, while not associating the specific > > vote with the individual voter. > > Is anonymity really a requirement ? This is all supposed to be "open" after > all, no? > > Christian > > P.S.: thanks to the kind person who took the trouble of adding me to this ml. > open is not the same as not private. secret ballots are important b/c then no one's feelings are involved. If my ballots are going to be open to the people running then I'd be afraid of NOT voting for someone who is my friend. Additionally, my vote for who is in charge could be used against me if the person elected isn't very good. Read up on the value of secret ballots for general elections. -sv From aoliva at redhat.com Thu Apr 27 01:59:30 2006 From: aoliva at redhat.com (Alexandre Oliva) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 22:59:30 -0300 Subject: [fab] Fedora as Free Software? In-Reply-To: <1145673351.3863.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> (Michael Tiemann's message of "Fri, 21 Apr 2006 22:35:51 -0400") References: <1145657196.4688.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20060422010110.GF29220@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1145673351.3863.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Apr 21, 2006, Michael Tiemann wrote: > On Fri, 2006-04-21 at 21:01 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: >> b) will they require us to change everything to say GNU/Linux? :) > No. That's not a requirement of the Free Software Definition 8-P Indeed :-) As I told Michael personally, I like the way Fedora sidesteps the issue of committing to Linux or GNU/Linux, by avoiding it completely. It's Fedora, after all. And if you must explain, it's a Linux-based operating system, which is also sufficiently ambiguous that you could still claim to be on the FSF's side on this issue :-) That said, I think it would be just fair to use GNU/Linux to refer to the operating system. After all, how many applications do you know that issue system calls directly, as opposed to going through the GNU libc? Have you heard of the project that takes Linux out and replaces it with the OpenSolaris kernel, and pretty much everything still works after libc is ported to issue the appropriate syscalls on it, retaining the same userland ABI? When talking about a GNU/Linux system, if you feel compelled to omit one of the names, it should be Linux, not GNU, that you omit. Now if you like using the term Linux, that's fine. After all, it's an important part of the operating system. It's just not the only part, and it's debatable whether it's actually the one essential part of it. True enough, there are other libcs out there, and they're even usable to some extent, but they're not binary compatible with GNU libc, so if you have a system built atop of GNU libc, there's little hope to replace GNU libc with something else and still get everything to work. Not so for the kernel, and it's not even only theoretical any more. Besides, if Fedora does subscribe to the ideals of freedom, why not help promote them, instead of promoting the project that chose the GNU GPL almost by accident (maybe just for fun? :-) and whose main author is proud of being apolitical and prefers to sidestep such important issues as the very ethics behind the Free Software movement? If none of this makes sense to you, I guess Linux-based is still acceptable, even if unfair. -- Alexandre Oliva http://www.lsd.ic.unicamp.br/~oliva/ Secretary for FSF Latin America http://www.fsfla.org/ Red Hat Compiler Engineer aoliva@{redhat.com, gcc.gnu.org} Free Software Evangelist oliva@{lsd.ic.unicamp.br, gnu.org} From aoliva at redhat.com Thu Apr 27 02:02:56 2006 From: aoliva at redhat.com (Alexandre Oliva) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 23:02:56 -0300 Subject: [fab] Fedora as Free Software? In-Reply-To: <1145664506.13271.2.camel@cutter> (seth vidal's message of "Fri, 21 Apr 2006 20:08:26 -0400") References: <1145657196.4688.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1145664506.13271.2.camel@cutter> Message-ID: On Apr 21, 2006, seth vidal wrote: > Do we have an idea of what we would need to drop to be completely free > software definition compliant? Probably very little. Although there are differences between the OSD and the FSD, I'm not aware of any licenses that actually exercise them. So if we're already compliant with our own policies, we shouldn't have to drop anything at all. Now if we aren't... Say, proprietary firmwares pretending to be legitimate source files inside the kernel, or in other firmware packages that the packaging guidelines might approve even though they are not free software. > What would we lose? Nothing compared with what we'd gain. > I guess a few rpm queries on license should work. That's not quite enough. There are a number of packages whose license says Distributable, which isn't entirely clear on the licensing terms. Also, there's the issue of how much you trust the License field in every one of the thousands of spec files in Fedora Core and Extras. -- Alexandre Oliva http://www.lsd.ic.unicamp.br/~oliva/ Secretary for FSF Latin America http://www.fsfla.org/ Red Hat Compiler Engineer aoliva@{redhat.com, gcc.gnu.org} Free Software Evangelist oliva@{lsd.ic.unicamp.br, gnu.org} From aoliva at redhat.com Thu Apr 27 02:12:14 2006 From: aoliva at redhat.com (Alexandre Oliva) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 23:12:14 -0300 Subject: [fab] Fedora as Free Software? In-Reply-To: <1145673222.3863.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> (Michael Tiemann's message of "Fri, 21 Apr 2006 22:33:42 -0400") References: <1145657196.4688.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1145664506.13271.2.camel@cutter> <1145673222.3863.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Apr 21, 2006, Michael Tiemann wrote: > I think the main thing is declaring it to be free software ourselves. > We miss the mark by not actually saying it explicitly. Yes, this is indeed the main point, as far as I understand it. I often tell people that, even though I do believe Fedora contains only Free Software, I cannot promote it, because its policy allows non-free software to go in, even if it's just a theoretical threat. Consider that someone might be aware of the differences between the OSD and the FSD and design a license specifically for the purpose of passing the OSD and not passing the FSD. Fedora, per its current guidelines, might accept such a project, and at that point, it would no longer be free, and any work we (FSFs) might have done promoting Fedora would have to be undone, *if* we noticed the problem, which would be tricky in itself given that it wouldn't require any changes in policy. So, yes, saying it explicitly is probably the most important thing to enable all of us FSFers to realize that Fedora is indeed committed to the same goals as we are, such that we can help Fedora verify that Fedora is already purely Free Software and, if not, help it become, such that we can then endorse it and promote it. I enclose below an e-mail I sent Max Spevack a while ago, when he was drawning in Fedora Foundation work, which is probably why I never got a reply. It probably helps figure out the sort of stuff we're after. Compliance and committment with the FSD is the most important of all; the other issues are still important, but not as important as the main issue. Of course, if Fedora were willing to switch to a Free Software focus, as Michael suggested, that would make the secondary matters much simpler, but if not, we're very close to what I ask below as we stand anyway. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Alexandre Oliva Subject: getting Fedora to be promoted by Free Software Foundations? Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 03:32:53 -0300 Size: 6724 URL: From aoliva at redhat.com Thu Apr 27 02:20:57 2006 From: aoliva at redhat.com (Alexandre Oliva) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 23:20:57 -0300 Subject: [fab] Fedora as Free Software? In-Reply-To: <20060422025755.GA23288@domsch.com> (Matt Domsch's message of "Fri, 21 Apr 2006 21:57:56 -0500") References: <1145657196.4688.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1145664506.13271.2.camel@cutter> <20060422025755.GA23288@domsch.com> Message-ID: On Apr 21, 2006, Matt Domsch wrote: > On Fri, Apr 21, 2006 at 08:08:26PM -0400, seth vidal wrote: >> >> > I'm wondering what you guys think about changing the tilt of Fedora from >> > open source to free software. Namely, saying that the license should >> > meet the free software definition ( >> > http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html ) and then mentioning that >> > OSI-certified licenses (with the exception of the Reciprocal Public >> > License, which we're going to reevaluate) are a good list, as well as >> > the free software licenses that are listed on the FSF website. >> > >> > The goal is to make Fedora a distribution that the FSF can positively >> > endorse. I think we're really close. Any reason to not try to go all >> > the way? >> >> Do we have an idea of what we would need to drop to be completely free >> software definition compliant? >> >> What would we lose? >> >> I guess a few rpm queries on license should work. >> what licenses are we looking for? > At a glance of Core -devel, the following packages don't have licenses > that are explicitly on the FSF's list: > tog-pegasus Open Group Pegasus Open Source (motif) > tog-pegasus-devel Open Group Pegasus Open Source > openmotif Open Group Public License > openmotif-devel Open Group Public License > xorg-x11-proto-devel The Open Group License > xorg-x11-util-macros The Open Group License > jdepend Clarkware License > jdepend-demo Clarkware License > jdepend-javadoc Clarkware License > adaptx Exolab Software License > adaptx-doc Exolab Software License > adaptx-javadoc Exolab Software License > castor Exolab Software License > castor-demo Exolab Software License > castor-doc Exolab Software License > castor-javadoc Exolab Software License > castor-test Exolab Software License > castor-xml Exolab Software License > latex2html Free To Use But Restricted (See LICENSE) > tanukiwrapper Tanuki Software License (open source) > tanukiwrapper-demo Tanuki Software License (open source) > tanukiwrapper-javadoc Tanuki Software License (open source) > tanukiwrapper-manual Tanuki Software License (open source) > libc-client University of Washington Free-Fork License > libc-client-devel University of Washington Free-Fork License > xdoclet XDoclet Open Source Licence > xdoclet-javadoc XDoclet Open Source Licence > xdoclet-manual XDoclet Open Source Licence > For that matter, none of these are on the OSI's list either explicitly. > Then there's all of the "distributable" License tags, and the packages > marked "various". > So yes, close, but not a done deal. David Turner also ran his own license check on my `everything' install of rawhide. Here's what he found so far: > Fedora licenses: > jlex : Free == SML of NJ license (simple permissive) > * openmotif : Open Group Public License == non-free > * openmotif-devel : Open Group Public License == non-free > ? libc-client : University of Washington Free-Fork License == I read this and > I still can't figure out if it's free. I think it's probably not, because > of clause 9 (which purports to bind the rest of the world by US law), but > maybe that's OK > ? libc-client-devel : University of Washington Free-Fork License > ncurses-devel : distributable == mostly simple permissive, some GPL, some LGPL. Many files missing notices (wrote to maintainers) > ncurses : distributable == as above, OK > docbook-style-dsssl : Distributable == simple permissive with rename > (versioning) clause. gpl-incompatible but free. OK > gnuplot : Redistributable, with restrictions == last I checked, the gnuplot > license was free, OK > eruby-libs : distributable == LGPL > castor-javadoc : Exolab Software License == Apache 1.1, OK > astor : Exolab Software License == OK > castor-xml : Exolab Software License == OK > castor-test : Exolab Software License == OK > castor-doc : Exolab Software License > adaptx-doc : Exolab Software License > adaptx : Exolab Software License > adaptx-javadoc : Exolab Software License > castor-demo : Exolab Software License > xorg-x11-fonts-ISO8859-15-75dpi : Various licenses > fonts-KOI8-R-75dpi : distributable > gpg-pubkey : pubkey (contains a public key; no software; OK) > ruby : Distributable == GPL/non-free disjunction, ok > ruby-irb : Distributable == GPL/non-free, OK > libjpeg : distributable == simple pemissive, OK > boost : Boost Software License == OK > ckermit : Special (see COPYING.TXT.gz) == Non-free > tanukiwrapper : Tanuki Software License (open source) == MIT, OK > tanukiwrapper-manual : Tanuki Software License (open source) == MIT, OK > tanukiwrapper-demo : Tanuki Software License (open source) == MIT, OK > tanukiwrapper-javadoc : Tanuki Software License (open source) == MIT, OK > libtiff : distributable == probably incompatible simple permissive > adjtimex : distributable == GPL > lslk : Free == simple permissive, maybe incompatible, OK > perl-URI : Distributable == Perl, ok > ppp : distributable == mix of GPL-incompatible license, LGPL, GPL. Probably undistributable due to incompatibilities. Otherwise free. Wrote to debian maintainer. He says it's actually OK due to exceptions he requested. OK > tcp_wrappers : Distributable == BSD-like, OK > openldap : OpenLDAP == OK > mx : eGenix.com Public License (Python) == permissive, incompatible, OK > perl-Net-Telnet : distributable == Perl, OK > compat-openldap : OpenLDAP == OK > ? selinux-doc : Public Use License v1.0 == Potentially bogus license -- may actually be public domain. No official ruling on this license, but is almost certainly free. > openldap-devel : OpenLDAP == OK > compat-openldap : OpenLDAP == OK > openldap-servers : OpenLDAP == OK > openldap-clients : OpenLDAP == OK > openldap : OpenLDAP == OK > openldap-servers-sql : OpenLDAP == OK > ? netpbm : freeware == various licenses, mostly or all free > ? netpbm-devel : freeware == ditto > * netpbm-progs : freeware == Contains some files with no license notices. See here for details: http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/pool/main/n/netpbm-free/netpbm-free_10.0-8sarge3/netpbm.copyright > newt-perl : Artistic == actually, Perl. OK -- Alexandre Oliva http://www.lsd.ic.unicamp.br/~oliva/ Secretary for FSF Latin America http://www.fsfla.org/ Red Hat Compiler Engineer aoliva@{redhat.com, gcc.gnu.org} Free Software Evangelist oliva@{lsd.ic.unicamp.br, gnu.org} From stickster at gmail.com Thu Apr 27 02:35:48 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 22:35:48 -0400 Subject: [fab] I have a few questions for the board. In-Reply-To: <1146066760.6311.24.camel@cutter> References: <200604251401.41205.nman64@n-man.com> <1146059221.25148.693.camel@erato.phig.org> <200604261044.21319.nman64@n-man.com> <444F961A.1090606@math.unl.edu> <1146066760.6311.24.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1146105348.7356.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2006-04-26 at 11:52 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > On Wed, 2006-04-26 at 10:47 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote: > > > > > > I certainly wouldn't mind using the two terms properly, but it would require a > > > lot of changes, since we started out calling all of our big efforts > > > "projects". The approach is sound, we just have to decide what words to use. > > > > don't be too hasty... following that path could ulitmately lead to > > renaming Fedora Project -> Fedora Program > > :) > > oooooooooo > > I want to start a new program in fedora. > > it'll be called 12-step. > > The Fedora 12-step Program has a nice ring to it. My first step was admitting that I was powerless over closed and proprietary operating systems, and that my computer had become unmanageable. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From Christian.Iseli at licr.org Thu Apr 27 07:03:17 2006 From: Christian.Iseli at licr.org (Christian.Iseli at licr.org) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 09:03:17 +0200 Subject: [fab] The next board once this board is tired of being the board In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 26 Apr 2006 21:21:50 EDT." <1146100910.12671.3.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <200604270703.k3R73JOc022858@mx3.redhat.com> skvidal at linux.duke.edu said: > open is not the same as not private. Agreed. > secret ballots are important b/c then no one's feelings are involved. Right. The downside is that it complicates the voting process a bit... There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of software allowing for secret ballots on freshmeat. There was supposed to be http://jfreevote.hispalinux.es/ but this now brings up a page in spanish that seems not directly related. I could also find GNU.FREE at http://www.j-dom.org/h/n/BIO/HOME/ALL/26/ and http://sourceforge.net/projects/free/ but it seems unmaintained. Do people here have experience with any e-voting system ? Cheers, Christian