From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon May 1 08:26:43 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 13:56:43 +0530 Subject: [fab] Building an updated Fedora Core 5 DVD Message-ID: <1146472003.3802.51.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Hi http://www.users.on.net/~rgarth/weblog/fedora/patch_cd.autumn ". If anyone wants to suggest somewhere I can host them, please email me: (rgarth (at gmail, dot com))." So, if Fedora were to offer hosting through say a torrent and enable this, how do you verify that the packages havent been altered easily? Rahul From ville.skytta at iki.fi Mon May 1 08:34:56 2006 From: ville.skytta at iki.fi (Ville =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Skytt=E4?=) Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 11:34:56 +0300 Subject: [fab] Building an updated Fedora Core 5 DVD In-Reply-To: <1146472003.3802.51.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> References: <1146472003.3802.51.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1146472496.5802.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2006-05-01 at 13:56 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > So, if Fedora were to offer hosting through say a torrent and enable > this, how do you verify that the packages havent been altered easily? Something like this should do the trick: find . -name "*.rpm" | xargs rpm -K | grep NOT From ville.skytta at iki.fi Mon May 1 08:40:19 2006 From: ville.skytta at iki.fi (Ville =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Skytt=E4?=) Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 11:40:19 +0300 Subject: [fab] Building an updated Fedora Core 5 DVD In-Reply-To: <1146472496.5802.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1146472003.3802.51.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1146472496.5802.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1146472819.5802.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2006-05-01 at 11:34 +0300, Ville Skytt? wrote: > On Mon, 2006-05-01 at 13:56 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > So, if Fedora were to offer hosting through say a torrent and enable > > this, how do you verify that the packages havent been altered easily? > > Something like this should do the trick: > find . -name "*.rpm" | xargs rpm -K | grep NOT Oh well, that's actually far from being enough, at least the grep part needs more checks. Or maybe write a quick rpm-python script for the job instead of using rpm -K. From jkeating at redhat.com Mon May 1 14:26:54 2006 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 10:26:54 -0400 Subject: [fab] Building an updated Fedora Core 5 DVD In-Reply-To: <1146472003.3802.51.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> References: <1146472003.3802.51.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1146493614.810.0.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> On Mon, 2006-05-01 at 13:56 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > So, if Fedora were to offer hosting through say a torrent and enable > this, how do you verify that the packages havent been altered easily? Um, they would still be signed with the Fedora key? No key, altered rpm. -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mspevack at redhat.com Mon May 1 17:16:17 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 13:16:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] fedora project board meeting 5/2 Message-ID: The Fedora Project Board meets on Tuesday at 10:00 AM EDT. Here's my current agenda. The meeting summary will be posted to the wiki once it is ready. ============== AGENDA 1. Review last meeting's action items: - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/Meetings/2006-04-18 - what was completed, what is in progress, what wasn't started 2. Where are we with FC6? Get an update from Jeremy, anything related to that. 3. Infrastructure team. We need to find a contractor/intern/etc who can actually get some code written. - get a job req open - update the list of projects that need to be done 4. Fedora Test Lead position has been filled. Talk about that, and automated testing in Fedora. 5. Update entire board regarding the meeting that several of us had with Matthew regarding the future of the build system, and opening up the ability for the community to contribute even more to Fedora. - get everyone on the same page - making sure the FESCO folks are in the loop and on board - timeline/work around a formal plan that the community can see and contribute to. 6. Any topics that the rest of the Board would like to address, or that anyone on the FAB would like to see discussed. Feel free to chime in here, so we can get them on the agenda before the meeting. -- Max Spevack + http://people.redhat.com/mspevack/ + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From jkeating at redhat.com Mon May 1 17:24:19 2006 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 13:24:19 -0400 Subject: [fab] fedora project board meeting 5/2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1146504259.810.71.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> On Mon, 2006-05-01 at 13:16 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: > 6. Any topics that the rest of the Board would like to address, or that > anyone on the FAB would like to see discussed. Feel free to chime in > here, so we can get them on the agenda before the meeting. Can we get a reminder as to where the meeting will take place? -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From blizzard at redhat.com Mon May 1 17:32:50 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 13:32:50 -0400 Subject: [fab] fedora project board meeting 5/2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44564642.1050800@redhat.com> Max Spevack wrote: > AGENDA > > 1. Review last meeting's action items: > - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/Meetings/2006-04-18 > - what was completed, what is in progress, what wasn't started > > 2. Where are we with FC6? Get an update from Jeremy, anything related > to that. > > 3. Infrastructure team. We need to find a contractor/intern/etc who > can actually get some code written. > - get a job req open > - update the list of projects that need to be done Second time I've heard this recently. What projects would this person start with? > 4. Fedora Test Lead position has been filled. Talk about that, and > automated testing in Fedora. > > 5. Update entire board regarding the meeting that several of us had > with Matthew regarding the future of the build system, and opening up > the ability for the community to contribute even more to Fedora. > - get everyone on the same page > - making sure the FESCO folks are in the loop and on board > - timeline/work around a formal plan that the community can see and > contribute to. Would love to hear how this went. --Chris From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon May 1 17:41:51 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 23:11:51 +0530 Subject: [fab] fedora project board meeting 5/2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1146505311.3802.100.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> On Mon, 2006-05-01 at 13:16 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: > The Fedora Project Board meets on Tuesday at 10:00 AM EDT. Here's my > current agenda. The meeting summary will be posted to the wiki once it is > ready. > > ============== > > AGENDA > > 1. Review last meeting's action items: > - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/Meetings/2006-04-18 > - what was completed, what is in progress, what wasn't started Since the meetings updates are being syndicated elsewhere, future announcements should include the meeting mins with potential references entirely within the announcement itself and not just the wiki links. That should help lazy^W busy people read the updates more easily. > > 2. Where are we with FC6? Get an update from Jeremy, anything related to > that. It would nice to get a qualified roadmap for Fedora published in http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FC6Future with developers assigned, specifications, status etc > > 3. Infrastructure team. We need to find a contractor/intern/etc who can > actually get some code written. > - get a job req open > - update the list of projects that need to be done Is this bouncer etc? Instead of a intern we can make it a Google SoC project if thats applicable to the rules. > > 4. Fedora Test Lead position has been filled. Talk about that, and > automated testing in Fedora. Who is doing this? Are we ready to reveal the name now? > > 5. Update entire board regarding the meeting that several of us had with > Matthew regarding the future of the build system, and opening up the > ability for the community to contribute even more to Fedora. > - get everyone on the same page > - making sure the FESCO folks are in the loop and on board > - timeline/work around a formal plan that the community can see > and contribute to. This is bound to be interesting. > > 6. Any topics that the rest of the Board would like to address, or that > anyone on the FAB would like to see discussed. Feel free to chime in > here, so we can get them on the agenda before the meeting. The way other meetings do this is have a list of items in http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/Schedule with priority, short explanation and review it one by one during meeting time and publish meeting mins and/or logs after that. For example, http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Extras/Schedule http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors/Schedule We can follow the same schedule pattern too. Rahul From mspevack at redhat.com Mon May 1 17:55:29 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 13:55:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] fedora project board meeting 5/2 In-Reply-To: <1146504259.810.71.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> References: <1146504259.810.71.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 May 2006, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Mon, 2006-05-01 at 13:16 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: >> 6. Any topics that the rest of the Board would like to address, or that >> anyone on the FAB would like to see discussed. Feel free to chime in >> here, so we can get them on the agenda before the meeting. > > Can we get a reminder as to where the meeting will take place? It's a phone meeting with the folks who are on the Fedora Board. But since the Board conducts all but the most sensitive parts of its business on this larger fedora-advisory-board list, I posted the agenda here, for everyone to be able to see. Sorry if there was some confusion. It's not a meeting for everyone on this list. --Max -- Max Spevack + http://people.redhat.com/mspevack/ + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From mspevack at redhat.com Mon May 1 17:56:34 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 13:56:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] fedora project board meeting 5/2 In-Reply-To: <44564642.1050800@redhat.com> References: <44564642.1050800@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 May 2006, Christopher Blizzard wrote: >> 3. Infrastructure team. We need to find a contractor/intern/etc who can >> actually get some code written. >> - get a job req open >> - update the list of projects that need to be done > > Second time I've heard this recently. What projects would this person start > with? Here's some of that: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/Schedule I'd like to see us take some Infrastructure team priorities and turn them into Summer of Code possibilities also, where applicable. -- Max Spevack + http://people.redhat.com/mspevack/ + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From mspevack at redhat.com Mon May 1 17:59:02 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 13:59:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] fedora project board meeting 5/2 In-Reply-To: <1146505311.3802.100.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> References: <1146505311.3802.100.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 May 2006, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> 4. Fedora Test Lead position has been filled. Talk about that, and >> automated testing in Fedora. > > Who is doing this? Are we ready to reveal the name now? Will Woods. I'll let him introduce himself, since he's on this list. He's transitioning from another position within Red Hat, and he's tasked with (among other things) bringing some serious structure to Fedora QA, and also expanding/increasing the community efforts around testing, bug triage, etc. --Max -- Max Spevack + http://people.redhat.com/mspevack/ + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From jkeating at redhat.com Mon May 1 18:08:27 2006 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 14:08:27 -0400 Subject: [fab] fedora project board meeting 5/2 In-Reply-To: References: <1146504259.810.71.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1146506907.810.77.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> On Mon, 2006-05-01 at 13:55 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: > Sorry if there was some confusion. It's not a meeting for everyone on > this list. Ah, I was curious how to accomplish 6. Any topics that the rest of the Board would like to address, or that anyone on the FAB would like to see discussed. Feel free to chime in here, so we can get them on the agenda before the meeting. Maybe that should be worded to 'discussed by the board, without FAB participation' (; -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mspevack at redhat.com Mon May 1 18:17:55 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 14:17:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] fedora project board meeting 5/2 In-Reply-To: <1146506907.810.77.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> References: <1146504259.810.71.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <1146506907.810.77.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 May 2006, Jesse Keating wrote: > Maybe that should be worded to 'discussed by the board, without FAB > participation' (; I prefer "discussed by the Board, at the urging of FAB, with a report back to FAB and further discussion possible on this list." :-) -- Max Spevack + http://people.redhat.com/mspevack/ + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org Mon May 1 19:38:13 2006 From: jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org (Josh Boyer) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 14:38:13 -0500 Subject: [fab] fedora project board meeting 5/2 In-Reply-To: References: <1146505311.3802.100.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20060501193813.GA24354@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> On Mon, May 01, 2006 at 01:59:02PM -0400, Max Spevack wrote: > On Mon, 1 May 2006, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > >>4. Fedora Test Lead position has been filled. Talk about that, and > >>automated testing in Fedora. > > > >Who is doing this? Are we ready to reveal the name now? > > Will Woods. I'll let him introduce himself, since he's on this list. > He's transitioning from another position within Red Hat, and he's tasked > with (among other things) bringing some serious structure to Fedora QA, > and also expanding/increasing the community efforts around testing, bug > triage, etc. As much as I would love to blur the lines between the various projects and simply assume "Fedora" means all of Fedora, I have to ask for clarification. Does the Fedora Test Lead position cover Fedora Core, or does it cover Core/Extras/Legacy, etc? josh From mspevack at redhat.com Mon May 1 20:56:59 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 16:56:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] fedora project board meeting 5/2 In-Reply-To: <20060501193813.GA24354@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> References: <1146505311.3802.100.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <20060501193813.GA24354@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 May 2006, Josh Boyer wrote: > On Mon, May 01, 2006 at 01:59:02PM -0400, Max Spevack wrote: >> On Mon, 1 May 2006, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> >>>> 4. Fedora Test Lead position has been filled. Talk about that, and >>>> automated testing in Fedora. >>> >>> Who is doing this? Are we ready to reveal the name now? >> >> Will Woods. I'll let him introduce himself, since he's on this list. >> He's transitioning from another position within Red Hat, and he's tasked >> with (among other things) bringing some serious structure to Fedora QA, >> and also expanding/increasing the community efforts around testing, bug >> triage, etc. > > As much as I would love to blur the lines between the various projects > and simply assume "Fedora" means all of Fedora, I have to ask for > clarification. > > Does the Fedora Test Lead position cover Fedora Core, or does it cover > Core/Extras/Legacy, etc? Initially, I would say that the efforts will be around Core. But it's definitely within the scope of the job, as Will settles into it, to figure out the best way to interact with stuff like Extras, Legacy, etc. Will's gonna have to benchmark the current situation of testing as it relates to the entire Fedora Project, and to put together a plan of where his energy can produce the biggest gain. My *guess* is that it's likely to focus on Core, but ultimately it's for him to figure out as the first part of his job. --Max -- Max Spevack + http://people.redhat.com/mspevack/ + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From jkeating at redhat.com Mon May 1 21:08:35 2006 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 17:08:35 -0400 Subject: [fab] fedora project board meeting 5/2 In-Reply-To: References: <1146505311.3802.100.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <20060501193813.GA24354@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: <1146517715.810.101.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> On Mon, 2006-05-01 at 16:56 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: > Initially, I would say that the efforts will be around Core. But it's > definitely within the scope of the job, as Will settles into it, to figure > out the best way to interact with stuff like Extras, Legacy, etc. > > Will's gonna have to benchmark the current situation of testing as it > relates to the entire Fedora Project, and to put together a plan of where > his energy can produce the biggest gain. My *guess* is that it's likely > to focus on Core, but ultimately it's for him to figure out as the first > part of his job. > As I understand it, his job isn't just to do the testing, but to grow a community of QA testers around the project. It would make sense for this community to handle some of the work of QA for the more community driven sub projects, such as Legacy and Extras, but within a framework developed by Will. -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From gdk at redhat.com Mon May 1 21:12:23 2006 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 17:12:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] fedora project board meeting 5/2 In-Reply-To: <1146517715.810.101.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> References: <1146505311.3802.100.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <20060501193813.GA24354@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> <1146517715.810.101.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 May 2006, Jesse Keating wrote: > As I understand it, his job isn't just to do the testing, but to grow a > community of QA testers around the project. It would make sense for > this community to handle some of the work of QA for the more community > driven sub projects, such as Legacy and Extras, but within a framework > developed by Will. Exactly right. Will needs to get his hands dirty so he knows the job inside and out -- and then he needs to consult. --g ------------------------------------------------------------- Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Project || fedoraproject.org Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors ------------------------------------------------------------- From wwoods at redhat.com Mon May 1 22:00:24 2006 From: wwoods at redhat.com (Will Woods) Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 18:00:24 -0400 Subject: [fab] fedora project board meeting 5/2 In-Reply-To: References: <1146505311.3802.100.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <20060501193813.GA24354@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> <1146517715.810.101.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1146520824.12265.27.camel@metroid.rdu.redhat.com> On Mon, 2006-05-01 at 17:12 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > On Mon, 1 May 2006, Jesse Keating wrote: > > > As I understand it, his job isn't just to do the testing, but to grow a > > community of QA testers around the project. It would make sense for > > this community to handle some of the work of QA for the more community > > driven sub projects, such as Legacy and Extras, but within a framework > > developed by Will. > > Exactly right. > > Will needs to get his hands dirty so he knows the job inside and out -- > and then he needs to consult. And, of course, the first step of getting your hands dirty with any open source project is.. lurking for a bit! Having accomplished that, I guess I'll introduce myself. Hi! I'm Will, and I'm the new Fedora Test Lead. I've been a Professional Linux Guy since 2000 or so. I worked at HP (Compaq at the time) in their Alpha/Linux group. I helped on Alpha ports of Slackware (which never saw the light of day) and Gentoo (which did), sent bug reports and patches to various open source projects, and generally helped improve the state of Linux on the Alpha. In June of 2004 I joined Red Hat's QA group, and I have worked on various internal testing efforts and watched the evolution of Red Hat's QA infrastructure with much interest. In recent days I've been working on the Hardware Certification test suites, but now I will be transitioning away from that and back to the front lines of Linux development and testing - the community. Hooray! As Greg says, I need to get my hands a bit dirty before I start making any real changes. I'm going to be poking around, figuring out what test efforts already exist, finding people who want to help, and so on. Eventually (and with much discussion, I'm sure) we will probably have a Great Grand Fedora Test Plan, but I have to figure out where we are before we decide where we should be going. Sound good? I hope so. I'm excited about it, anyway. Feel free to email me with any questions, comments, suggestions, and (especially) offers of free test hardware. *grin* -w From jkeating at redhat.com Mon May 1 22:07:03 2006 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 18:07:03 -0400 Subject: [fab] fedora project board meeting 5/2 In-Reply-To: <1146520824.12265.27.camel@metroid.rdu.redhat.com> References: <1146505311.3802.100.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <20060501193813.GA24354@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> <1146517715.810.101.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <1146520824.12265.27.camel@metroid.rdu.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1146521223.810.122.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> On Mon, 2006-05-01 at 18:00 -0400, Will Woods wrote: > > Hi! I'm Will, and I'm the new Fedora Test Lead. Welcome Will! -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From Christian.Iseli at licr.org Mon May 1 22:15:37 2006 From: Christian.Iseli at licr.org (Christian.Iseli at licr.org) Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 00:15:37 +0200 Subject: [fab] fedora project board meeting 5/2 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 01 May 2006 18:00:24 EDT." <1146520824.12265.27.camel@metroid.rdu.redhat.com> Message-ID: <200605012215.k41MFnu4003330@mx3.redhat.com> wwoods at redhat.com said: > Sound good? Like music to my ears... :) > Feel free to email me with any questions, comments, suggestions, and > (especially) offers of free test hardware. *grin* Haven't much to offer of the latter... I'm mostly lurking myself too ATM. I collected some thoughts and tried to organize them a bit on the wiki here: Extras/SIGs/QA (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Extras/SIGs/QA) All still very sketchy... Cheers, Christian From lmacken at redhat.com Tue May 2 00:14:26 2006 From: lmacken at redhat.com (Luke Macken) Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 20:14:26 -0400 Subject: [fab] fedora project board meeting 5/2 In-Reply-To: <1146505311.3802.100.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> References: <1146505311.3802.100.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20060502001425.GD24160@tomservo.boston.redhat.com> On Mon, May 01, 2006 at 11:11:51PM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > 3. Infrastructure team. We need to find a contractor/intern/etc who can > > actually get some code written. > > - get a job req open > > - update the list of projects that need to be done > > Is this bouncer etc? Instead of a intern we can make it a Google SoC > project if thats applicable to the rules. I updated the FedoraBounties page a few days ago and updated the blob about the mirror management system. I removed the bouncer_r crap since dfarning, the community guy that was working on it, has been MIA since last summer. Considering the amount of unfinished SoC projects from last summer, I'm not sure if writing a new mirror management system from scratch is the best idea. We could always find a SoC hacker willing to work on bouncer? or find someone that won't disappear once they cash their check. luke From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Tue May 2 00:29:07 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 20:29:07 -0400 Subject: [fab] fedora project board meeting 5/2 In-Reply-To: <20060502001425.GD24160@tomservo.boston.redhat.com> References: <1146505311.3802.100.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <20060502001425.GD24160@tomservo.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1146529747.7995.27.camel@cutter> On Mon, 2006-05-01 at 20:14 -0400, Luke Macken wrote: > On Mon, May 01, 2006 at 11:11:51PM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > 3. Infrastructure team. We need to find a contractor/intern/etc who can > > > actually get some code written. > > > - get a job req open > > > - update the list of projects that need to be done > > > > Is this bouncer etc? Instead of a intern we can make it a Google SoC > > project if thats applicable to the rules. > > I updated the FedoraBounties page a few days ago and updated the blob > about the mirror management system. I removed the bouncer_r crap > since dfarning, the community guy that was working on it, has been MIA since > last summer. > > Considering the amount of unfinished SoC projects from last summer, I'm > not sure if writing a new mirror management system from scratch is the best > idea. We could always find a SoC hacker willing to work on bouncer? or > find someone that won't disappear once they cash their check. > We've been trying to find someone to work on bouncer and it's not obvious it will EVER happen. For our needs it is not obvious to me that we need what bouncer offers. -sv From jkeating at redhat.com Tue May 2 03:31:47 2006 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 23:31:47 -0400 Subject: [fab] fedora project board meeting 5/2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1146540708.10995.5.camel@ender> On Mon, 2006-05-01 at 13:16 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: > > 6. Any topics that the rest of the Board would like to address, or > that > anyone on the FAB would like to see discussed. Feel free to chime in > here, so we can get them on the agenda before the meeting. Could you please discuss forming a "governing body" to be responsible for discussing and approving updates to the Fedora packaging guideline? Since the guidelines now apply to Core as well as Extras, the governing of this should happen not just within Extras. -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Tue May 2 14:38:37 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 10:38:37 -0400 Subject: [fab] board election summary Message-ID: <1146580717.11250.15.camel@cutter> Here's a summary of the fedora board election thread: rh seats: - appointed/suggested by current seated rh members. - same replacement timelines as community. elections: - stagger - half the board at a time every year - no limitations on number of terms - voted on by contributors - should be kept as a secret ballot but verify the user. problems: - problems with members should be brought to the Project Lead -sv From kwade at redhat.com Tue May 2 23:01:19 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 16:01:19 -0700 Subject: [fab] I have a few questions for the board. In-Reply-To: <200604261044.21319.nman64@n-man.com> References: <200604251401.41205.nman64@n-man.com> <1146059221.25148.693.camel@erato.phig.org> <200604261044.21319.nman64@n-man.com> Message-ID: <1146610879.31410.216.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2006-04-26 at 10:44 -0500, Patrick W. Barnes wrote: > I certainly wouldn't mind using the two terms properly, but it would require a > lot of changes, since we started out calling all of our big efforts > "projects". The approach is sound, we just have to decide what words to use. I wouldn't change our usage of project, sorry if it sounded that way; just warning about reversing the two. I suggest we drop the usage of program entirely; it has an IT meaning that takes precedence, anyway. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Editor * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Fedora Documentation Project http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject Learn. Network. Experience open source. Red Hat Summit Nashville | May 30 - June 2, 2006 Learn more: http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sopwith at redhat.com Thu May 4 20:57:01 2006 From: sopwith at redhat.com (Elliot Lee) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 16:57:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] 30-Day Certified GoDaddy.com Renewal Notice (fwd) Message-ID: Hi all, Does anyone think it's important to keep these domains around? i.e. How much do we care if ubuntu grabs the domains and puts up pictures of nekkid women wearing fedoras? :) Best, -- Elliot ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: 4 May 2006 04:08:59 -0700 From: Renewals at godaddy.com To: admin at fedora.redhat.com Subject: 30-Day Certified GoDaddy.com Renewal Notice Dear Elliot Lee, This email is to notify you that some of your domain names are coming up for renewal in 30 days. Domain names selected to renew automatically: The domain names listed below are set to automatically renew on 6/3/2006. FEDORAFOUNDATION.COM FEDORAFOUNDATION.NET FEDORAFOUNDATION.ORG To view a list of your expiring domain names and RENEW NOW, go to You may be asked to log in with your log in name or customer number and password before you can view your expiring item(s). In this instance, to safely log in: 1. Go to www.GoDaddy.com?. Be sure you're at the Go Daddy? home page (instead of clicking on unidentifiable links, pop-ups, etc.). 2. Click on "Renew expiring" from the "Domain Names" drop-down. 3. Enter your log in name or customer number and password and click "Secure Login." Go Daddy is always looking out for your Internet safety. Learn how to verify legitimate emails and detect email fraud by visiting GoDaddy.com and clicking on the "GoDaddy.com Security" link at the top of the page. If you have forgotten your password, you may reset it by selecting the "Forgot your password?" link on the log in page. IMPORTANT: We will automatically renew the above domain name(s) at the renewal date, and charge the credit card you have on file. To review and update your credit card information, log in to your account or call 480-505-8855. To learn how to change your renewal setting, click here . Thanks for choosing Go Daddy for your domain name registration needs. Sincerely, Bob Parsons Bob Parsons CEO and Founder GoDaddy.com 24/7 Customer Support Call: (480) 505-8899 support at godaddy.com From amaier at redhat.com Thu May 4 21:01:41 2006 From: amaier at redhat.com (Alex Maier) Date: Thu, 04 May 2006 17:01:41 -0400 Subject: [fab] 30-Day Certified GoDaddy.com Renewal Notice (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1146776501.4251.134.camel@dhcp13-197.munich.redhat.com> Why don't we keep them around for another year or so, and after this everybody will have forgotten about FF, or at least it would not be a current issue anymore... Alex On Thu, 2006-05-04 at 16:57 -0400, Elliot Lee wrote: > Hi all, > > Does anyone think it's important to keep these domains around? i.e. How > much do we care if ubuntu grabs the domains and puts up pictures of nekkid > women wearing fedoras? :) > > Best, > -- Elliot > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: 4 May 2006 04:08:59 -0700 > From: Renewals at godaddy.com > To: admin at fedora.redhat.com > Subject: 30-Day Certified GoDaddy.com Renewal Notice > > > > > > > > > Dear Elliot Lee, > > This email is to notify you that some of your domain names are coming up > for renewal in 30 days. > > > > Domain names selected to renew automatically: > The domain names listed below are set to automatically renew on > 6/3/2006. > > > FEDORAFOUNDATION.COM > FEDORAFOUNDATION.NET > FEDORAFOUNDATION.ORG > To view a list of your expiring domain names and RENEW NOW, go to > > You may be asked to log in with your log in name or customer number and > password before you can view your expiring item(s). In this instance, to > safely log in: > > 1. Go to www.GoDaddy.com. Be sure you're at the Go Daddy home > page (instead of clicking on unidentifiable links, pop-ups, etc.). > > 2. Click on "Renew expiring" from the "Domain Names" drop-down. > > 3. Enter your log in name or customer number and password and click > "Secure Login." > > Go Daddy is always looking out for your Internet safety. Learn how to > verify legitimate emails and detect email fraud by visiting GoDaddy.com > and clicking on the "GoDaddy.com Security" link at the top of the page. > > If you have forgotten your password, you may reset it by selecting the > "Forgot your password?" link on the log in page. > > IMPORTANT: We will automatically renew the above domain name(s) at the > renewal date, and charge the credit card you have on file. To review and > update your credit card information, log in to your account or call > 480-505-8855. To learn how to change your renewal setting, click here > 9bbd30> . > > Thanks for choosing Go Daddy for your domain name registration needs. > > Sincerely, > Bob Parsons > Bob Parsons > CEO and Founder > GoDaddy.com > > 24/7 Customer Support > Call: (480) 505-8899 > support at godaddy.com > > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board Alex Maier Red Hat---Sr Marketing Specialist 1801 Varsity Dr, Raleigh, NC 27606, USA Direct: +1 919 754 4004 Mobile: +1 919 455 8330 From wtogami at redhat.com Thu May 4 21:41:43 2006 From: wtogami at redhat.com (Warren Togami) Date: Thu, 04 May 2006 17:41:43 -0400 Subject: [fab] 30-Day Certified GoDaddy.com Renewal Notice (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <445A7517.3050002@redhat.com> Elliot Lee wrote: > Hi all, > > Does anyone think it's important to keep these domains around? i.e. How > much do we care if ubuntu grabs the domains and puts up pictures of nekkid > women wearing fedoras? :) > > Best, > -- Elliot > I think we should hold on to these names for the foreseeable future. We want to guard against potentially hostile squatters, and also it would be painful a few years from now if we change our mind and want to do a Foundation. This is a tiny price to pay for insurance against these issues. fedora.org expires on May 28th, 2006. Attempt to grab that? =) Warren Togami wtogami at redhat.com From smooge at gmail.com Thu May 4 21:57:16 2006 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 15:57:16 -0600 Subject: [fab] 30-Day Certified GoDaddy.com Renewal Notice (fwd) In-Reply-To: <445A7517.3050002@redhat.com> References: <445A7517.3050002@redhat.com> Message-ID: <80d7e4090605041457g17d015e2k3eb55e89308c5278@mail.gmail.com> On 5/4/06, Warren Togami wrote: > Elliot Lee wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > Does anyone think it's important to keep these domains around? i.e. How > > much do we care if ubuntu grabs the domains and puts up pictures of nekkid > > women wearing fedoras? :) > > > > Best, > > -- Elliot > > > > I think we should hold on to these names for the foreseeable future. We > want to guard against potentially hostile squatters, and also it would > be painful a few years from now if we change our mind and want to do a > Foundation. This is a tiny price to pay for insurance against these issues. > If we do keep them, they should point to something useful, like a webpage with the current explanation of why the fedorafoundation was not done and how the current fedora group is structured. > fedora.org expires on May 28th, 2006. Attempt to grab that? =) > And put the various special interest groups's page on that? -- Stephen J Smoogen. CSIRT/Linux System Administrator From nman64 at n-man.com Thu May 4 22:59:15 2006 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick W. Barnes) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 17:59:15 -0500 Subject: [fab] 30-Day Certified GoDaddy.com Renewal Notice (fwd) In-Reply-To: <80d7e4090605041457g17d015e2k3eb55e89308c5278@mail.gmail.com> References: <445A7517.3050002@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605041457g17d015e2k3eb55e89308c5278@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200605041759.17412.nman64@n-man.com> On Thursday 04 May 2006 16:57, "Stephen John Smoogen" wrote: > On 5/4/06, Warren Togami wrote: > > > > I think we should hold on to these names for the foreseeable future. We > > want to guard against potentially hostile squatters, and also it would > > be painful a few years from now if we change our mind and want to do a > > Foundation. This is a tiny price to pay for insurance against these > > issues. > > If we do keep them, they should point to something useful, like a > webpage with the current explanation of why the fedorafoundation was > not done and how the current fedora group is structured. > I agree that we should hold onto them, at least for this year. If we're going to point them at a particular resource, it should probably be our existing page of information about the Foundation: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Foundation > > fedora.org expires on May 28th, 2006. Attempt to grab that? =) > > And put the various special interest groups's page on that? > ...or just point it straight at fedoraproject.org. :-) -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com http://www.n-man.com/ LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/nman64 Have I been helpful? Rate my assistance! http://rate.affero.net/nman64/ -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kwade at redhat.com Thu May 4 23:26:07 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 04 May 2006 16:26:07 -0700 Subject: [fab] 30-Day Certified GoDaddy.com Renewal Notice (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1146785167.31410.578.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2006-05-04 at 16:57 -0400, Elliot Lee wrote: > Hi all, > > Does anyone think it's important to keep these domains around? Which reminds me ... whois fudcon.net ... Domain Name: FUDCON.NET Created on..............: 09-JUN-2005 Expires on..............: 09-JUN-2006 Record last updated on..: 09-JUN-2005 Status..................: ACTIVE I grabbed this last year, looks like around the same time the fedorafoundation.* were registered, for the reason of at least avoiding more squatters. I'll gladly keep it around for another year in case we want to do something with it. Probably just free advertising for the squatters at fudcon.org. Who are, uh, opendomain.org? "Open Source for Domains" Anti-squatters? - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Editor * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Fedora Documentation Project http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject Learn. Network. Experience open source. Red Hat Summit Nashville | May 30 - June 2, 2006 Learn more: http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mspevack at redhat.com Thu May 4 23:30:56 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 19:30:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] 30-Day Certified GoDaddy.com Renewal Notice (fwd) In-Reply-To: <200605041759.17412.nman64@n-man.com> References: <445A7517.3050002@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605041457g17d015e2k3eb55e89308c5278@mail.gmail.com> <200605041759.17412.nman64@n-man.com> Message-ID: > I agree that we should hold onto them, at least for this year. If we're > going to point them at a particular resource, it should probably be our > existing page of information about the Foundation: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Foundation +1, let's make this happen. >>> fedora.org expires on May 28th, 2006. Attempt to grab that? =) if we can get it, that would be slick. if not, whatever. -- Max Spevack + http://people.redhat.com/mspevack/ + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From gdk at redhat.com Fri May 5 13:31:10 2006 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 09:31:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] 30-Day Certified GoDaddy.com Renewal Notice (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 4 May 2006, Elliot Lee wrote: > Hi all, > > Does anyone think it's important to keep these domains around? i.e. How > much do we care if ubuntu grabs the domains and puts up pictures of nekkid > women wearing fedoras? :) Hot. I'll send Shuttleworth an email asking pretty-please. --g ------------------------------------------------------------- Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Project || fedoraproject.org Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors ------------------------------------------------------------- From mwebbink at redhat.com Fri May 5 15:41:54 2006 From: mwebbink at redhat.com (Mark Webbink) Date: Fri, 05 May 2006 11:41:54 -0400 Subject: [fab] 30-Day Certified GoDaddy.com Renewal Notice (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: <445A7517.3050002@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605041457g17d015e2k3eb55e89308c5278@mail.gmail.com> <200605041759.17412.nman64@n-man.com> Message-ID: <445B7242.3070002@redhat.com> Max, Contact Kashauna Mayo to let her know we want to hang on to them. Mark Max Spevack wrote: >> I agree that we should hold onto them, at least for this year. If >> we're going to point them at a particular resource, it should >> probably be our existing page of information about the Foundation: >> >> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Foundation > > > +1, let's make this happen. > > >>>> fedora.org expires on May 28th, 2006. Attempt to grab that? =) >>> > > if we can get it, that would be slick. if not, whatever. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mspevack at redhat.com Sun May 7 20:23:31 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 16:23:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Fedora Project Board meeting summary (fwd) Message-ID: making sure fab sees this too. --Max ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 16:17:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Max Spevack To: fedora-announce-list at redhat.com Cc: fedora-list at redhat.com Subject: Fedora Project Board meeting summary All, Just wanted to let folks know that the summary of the most recent Fedora Project Board meeting is online. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/Meetings/2006-05-02 Feel free to contact fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com with any questions or comments, or to write directly to me if you have private concerns. As always, the archives of fedora-advisory-board are fully public. In addition, we're working on getting a read-only copy of that list set up, so that people don't have to poll the archives to see what's going on. Thanks, Max -- Max Spevack + http://people.redhat.com/mspevack/ + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org Sun May 7 21:30:38 2006 From: jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org (Josh Boyer) Date: Sun, 07 May 2006 16:30:38 -0500 Subject: [fab] Project Hosting Message-ID: <1147037439.2626.12.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> I bugged Seth about this a little on IRC, but I thought I would take it to a bit wider audience. The basic discussion that we had was that the current /cvs/fedora isn't really sufficient for new projects, and CVS isn't going to cut it forever. (Seth can smack me down if I'm wrong on the summary.) So the question becomes, what is? Developer Nation was mentioned. I read Karsten's blog on it and thought it sounded cool, though I still have no idea what it really is. I realize it's not quite ready yet, so perhaps that is natural. What exactly do we think we're looking for in terms of project hosting? I can think of a couple different ways of approaching this topic, but perhaps getting a bit more background information would be good before launching full steam into it. josh -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sun May 7 21:41:44 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 03:11:44 +0530 Subject: [fab] Project Hosting In-Reply-To: <1147037439.2626.12.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> References: <1147037439.2626.12.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: <1147038104.4310.59.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> On Sun, 2006-05-07 at 16:30 -0500, Josh Boyer wrote: > I bugged Seth about this a little on IRC, but I thought I would take it > to a bit wider audience. The basic discussion that we had was that the > current /cvs/fedora isn't really sufficient for new projects, and CVS > isn't going to cut it forever. (Seth can smack me down if I'm wrong on > the summary.) > > So the question becomes, what is? The earlier thread on the topic has many details https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2006- April/msg00092.html > > Developer Nation was mentioned. I read Karsten's blog on it and thought > it sounded cool, though I still have no idea what it really is. I > realize it's not quite ready yet, so perhaps that is natural. Details on Dev nation - https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory- board/2006-April/msg00186.html > > What exactly do we think we're looking for in terms of project hosting? > I can think of a couple different ways of approaching this topic, but > perhaps getting a bit more background information would be good before > launching full steam into it. Rahul From jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org Sun May 7 22:29:42 2006 From: jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org (Josh Boyer) Date: Sun, 07 May 2006 17:29:42 -0500 Subject: [fab] Project Hosting In-Reply-To: <1147038104.4310.59.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> References: <1147037439.2626.12.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <1147038104.4310.59.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1147040982.2626.25.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> On Mon, 2006-05-08 at 03:11 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > On Sun, 2006-05-07 at 16:30 -0500, Josh Boyer wrote: > > I bugged Seth about this a little on IRC, but I thought I would take it > > to a bit wider audience. The basic discussion that we had was that the > > current /cvs/fedora isn't really sufficient for new projects, and CVS > > isn't going to cut it forever. (Seth can smack me down if I'm wrong on > > the summary.) > > > > So the question becomes, what is? > > > The earlier thread on the topic has many details > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2006- > April/msg00092.html Excellent. I've read most of it, let me try and post a summary here: The current options are: 1) Savannah 2) Sourceforge 3) GForge 4) Roll-your-own 1, 2, and 3 all offer pretty much the same things in various flavors. CVS/SVN, mailing lists, "trackers", etc. I happen to have used them all too. The largest issue here is whether to just use the existing sf.net/ savannah.{non-}gnu.org/gforge.org sites, or to do installations of them ourselves. I know a coupl people that have done administration for large Sourceforge and GForge installations. I'll ask around and get their opinions on some of the issues in dealing with them. Roll-your-own has obvious startup/development overhead in addition to some of the admin issues that the others bring. Is that a sufficient summary, or have I missed something? > > Developer Nation was mentioned. I read Karsten's blog on it and thought > > it sounded cool, though I still have no idea what it really is. I > > realize it's not quite ready yet, so perhaps that is natural. > > Details on Dev nation - https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory- > board/2006-April/msg00186.html I still have no idea what it's supposed to be. I'm pretty dense sometimes though, so I'll ignore it for now. josh From jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org Sun May 7 22:37:02 2006 From: jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org (Josh Boyer) Date: Sun, 07 May 2006 17:37:02 -0500 Subject: [fab] Project Hosting In-Reply-To: <1147040982.2626.25.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> References: <1147037439.2626.12.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <1147038104.4310.59.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1147040982.2626.25.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: <1147041423.2626.28.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> On Sun, 2006-05-07 at 17:29 -0500, Josh Boyer wrote: > On Mon, 2006-05-08 at 03:11 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > On Sun, 2006-05-07 at 16:30 -0500, Josh Boyer wrote: > > > I bugged Seth about this a little on IRC, but I thought I would take it > > > to a bit wider audience. The basic discussion that we had was that the > > > current /cvs/fedora isn't really sufficient for new projects, and CVS > > > isn't going to cut it forever. (Seth can smack me down if I'm wrong on > > > the summary.) > > > > > > So the question becomes, what is? > > > > > > The earlier thread on the topic has many details > > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2006- > > April/msg00092.html > > Excellent. I've read most of it, let me try and post a summary here: As a side note, the original discussion was held before I even knew the list existed. Thanks for having patience while I try and catch up. josh From akonstam at sbcglobal.net Sun May 7 21:17:14 2006 From: akonstam at sbcglobal.net (Aaron Konstam) Date: Sun, 07 May 2006 16:17:14 -0500 Subject: [fab] Support for these summaries of project board meetings. Message-ID: <1147036634.2629.19.camel@vulcan> I think these summaries of the fedora project board meeting activities are a great idea and allows the fedora community some access to the decisions that are being made. This I believe supports the "community" aspect of fedora. Rahul can testify that I have been harassing hin for the creation of an information channel like this for the last 6 months, at least. -- ======================================================================= Concept, n.: Any "idea" for which an outside consultant billed you more than $25,000. ======================================================================= Aaron Konstam telephone: (210) 656-0355 e-mail: akonstam at sbcglobal.net From laroche at redhat.com Mon May 8 08:54:16 2006 From: laroche at redhat.com (Florian La Roche) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 10:54:16 +0200 Subject: [fab] Project Hosting In-Reply-To: <1147040982.2626.25.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> References: <1147037439.2626.12.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <1147038104.4310.59.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1147040982.2626.25.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: <20060508085416.GA12606@dudweiler.stuttgart.redhat.com> > Is that a sufficient summary, or have I missed something? Stripped down cases where only web-space is available and then also git/mercurial repos to easily be setup. That together with mailman/bugzilla should be pretty powerful. regards, Florian La Roche From jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org Mon May 8 10:46:14 2006 From: jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org (Josh Boyer) Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 05:46:14 -0500 Subject: [fab] Project Hosting In-Reply-To: <20060508085416.GA12606@dudweiler.stuttgart.redhat.com> References: <1147037439.2626.12.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <1147038104.4310.59.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1147040982.2626.25.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <20060508085416.GA12606@dudweiler.stuttgart.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1147085175.2626.32.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> On Mon, 2006-05-08 at 10:54 +0200, Florian La Roche wrote: > > Is that a sufficient summary, or have I missed something? > > Stripped down cases where only web-space is available and then > also git/mercurial repos to easily be setup. > That together with mailman/bugzilla should be pretty powerful. I would consider that a roll-your-own. But I agree that it's pretty powerful. Setting up git trees is really fairly trivial since push/pull/clone can be done via ssh. I'm not sure about hg. josh From blizzard at redhat.com Mon May 8 14:01:11 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 10:01:11 -0400 Subject: [fab] Project Hosting In-Reply-To: <1147085175.2626.32.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> References: <1147037439.2626.12.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <1147038104.4310.59.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1147040982.2626.25.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <20060508085416.GA12606@dudweiler.stuttgart.redhat.com> <1147085175.2626.32.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: <445F4F27.6090208@redhat.com> Josh Boyer wrote: > On Mon, 2006-05-08 at 10:54 +0200, Florian La Roche wrote: >>> Is that a sufficient summary, or have I missed something? >> Stripped down cases where only web-space is available and then >> also git/mercurial repos to easily be setup. >> That together with mailman/bugzilla should be pretty powerful. > > I would consider that a roll-your-own. But I agree that it's pretty > powerful. > > Setting up git trees is really fairly trivial since push/pull/clone can > be done via ssh. I'm not sure about hg. > hg uses ssh for updating but you can pull anonymously over http. Convenient that way. --Chris From jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org Mon May 8 14:09:33 2006 From: jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org (Josh Boyer) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 09:09:33 -0500 Subject: [fab] Project Hosting In-Reply-To: <445F4F27.6090208@redhat.com> References: <1147037439.2626.12.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <1147038104.4310.59.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1147040982.2626.25.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <20060508085416.GA12606@dudweiler.stuttgart.redhat.com> <1147085175.2626.32.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <445F4F27.6090208@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20060508140933.GA26594@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> On Mon, May 08, 2006 at 10:01:11AM -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > Josh Boyer wrote: > >On Mon, 2006-05-08 at 10:54 +0200, Florian La Roche wrote: > >>>Is that a sufficient summary, or have I missed something? > >>Stripped down cases where only web-space is available and then > >>also git/mercurial repos to easily be setup. > >>That together with mailman/bugzilla should be pretty powerful. > > > >I would consider that a roll-your-own. But I agree that it's pretty > >powerful. > > > >Setting up git trees is really fairly trivial since push/pull/clone can > >be done via ssh. I'm not sure about hg. > > > > hg uses ssh for updating but you can pull anonymously over http. > Convenient that way. git can also pull over http, though it's frowned upon by anyone that uses it often. It has it's own protocol git:// that doesn't seem to be too difficult to setup either. I'll stop pimping git now. I don't want to turn this into a SCM flame-war :) josh From gdk at redhat.com Mon May 8 14:37:26 2006 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 10:37:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Project Hosting In-Reply-To: <1147040982.2626.25.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> References: <1147037439.2626.12.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <1147038104.4310.59.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1147040982.2626.25.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 7 May 2006, Josh Boyer wrote: > The current options are: > > 1) Savannah > 2) Sourceforge > 3) GForge > 4) Roll-your-own > > 1, 2, and 3 all offer pretty much the same things in various flavors. > CVS/SVN, mailing lists, "trackers", etc. I happen to have used them all > too. The largest issue here is whether to just use the existing sf.net/ > savannah.{non-}gnu.org/gforge.org sites, or to do installations of them > ourselves. > > I know a coupl people that have done administration for large > Sourceforge and GForge installations. I'll ask around and get their > opinions on some of the issues in dealing with them. > > Roll-your-own has obvious startup/development overhead in addition to > some of the admin issues that the others bring. > > Is that a sufficient summary, or have I missed something? It's probably worth mentioning the general bias against PHP, which would seem to take GForge right out of the running. --g ------------------------------------------------------------- Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Project || fedoraproject.org Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors ------------------------------------------------------------- From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Mon May 8 14:44:38 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 10:44:38 -0400 Subject: [fab] Project Hosting In-Reply-To: References: <1147037439.2626.12.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <1147038104.4310.59.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1147040982.2626.25.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: <1147099479.1951.2.camel@cutter> On Mon, 2006-05-08 at 10:37 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > On Sun, 7 May 2006, Josh Boyer wrote: > > > The current options are: > > > > 1) Savannah > > 2) Sourceforge > > 3) GForge > > 4) Roll-your-own > > > > 1, 2, and 3 all offer pretty much the same things in various flavors. > > CVS/SVN, mailing lists, "trackers", etc. I happen to have used them all > > too. The largest issue here is whether to just use the existing sf.net/ > > savannah.{non-}gnu.org/gforge.org sites, or to do installations of them > > ourselves. > > > > I know a coupl people that have done administration for large > > Sourceforge and GForge installations. I'll ask around and get their > > opinions on some of the issues in dealing with them. > > > > Roll-your-own has obvious startup/development overhead in addition to > > some of the admin issues that the others bring. > > > > Is that a sufficient summary, or have I missed something? > > It's probably worth mentioning the general bias against PHP, which > would seem to take GForge right out of the running. > It's also probably fair to mention that the 'bias' against php is based on lots and lots of experience de-bunging systems that were rooted or otherwise broken b/c of incredibly poor php programming. It's not like we all woke up one day and decided to hate php. It took a lot of effort to generate this kind of hate. :) -sv From blizzard at redhat.com Mon May 8 14:44:54 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 10:44:54 -0400 Subject: [fab] Project Hosting In-Reply-To: <20060508140933.GA26594@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> References: <1147037439.2626.12.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <1147038104.4310.59.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1147040982.2626.25.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <20060508085416.GA12606@dudweiler.stuttgart.redhat.com> <1147085175.2626.32.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <445F4F27.6090208@redhat.com> <20060508140933.GA26594@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: <445F5966.8010904@redhat.com> Josh Boyer wrote: > On Mon, May 08, 2006 at 10:01:11AM -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: >> Josh Boyer wrote: >>> On Mon, 2006-05-08 at 10:54 +0200, Florian La Roche wrote: >>>>> Is that a sufficient summary, or have I missed something? >>>> Stripped down cases where only web-space is available and then >>>> also git/mercurial repos to easily be setup. >>>> That together with mailman/bugzilla should be pretty powerful. >>> I would consider that a roll-your-own. But I agree that it's pretty >>> powerful. >>> >>> Setting up git trees is really fairly trivial since push/pull/clone can >>> be done via ssh. I'm not sure about hg. >>> >> hg uses ssh for updating but you can pull anonymously over http. >> Convenient that way. > > git can also pull over http, though it's frowned upon by anyone that uses it > often. It has it's own protocol git:// that doesn't seem to be too difficult > to setup either. > > I'll stop pimping git now. I don't want to turn this into a SCM flame-war :) Yeah, it's also the wrong conversation to have at this point. Need to figure out 1. what you want to host and 2. what the social structures might look like around that. Those two items will drive your choice of SCM and hosting technology. i.e. Want something with centralized development and avoid forks? Use SVN/CVS. Want something that allows for local forks and encourages local (non-central) hacks? Use GIT/hg. --Chris From jkeating at redhat.com Mon May 8 14:51:43 2006 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 10:51:43 -0400 Subject: [fab] Project Hosting In-Reply-To: <1147099479.1951.2.camel@cutter> References: <1147037439.2626.12.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <1147038104.4310.59.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1147040982.2626.25.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <1147099479.1951.2.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1147099903.8821.13.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> On Mon, 2006-05-08 at 10:44 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > > It's also probably fair to mention that the 'bias' against php is based > on lots and lots of experience de-bunging systems that were rooted or > otherwise broken b/c of incredibly poor php programming. > > It's not like we all woke up one day and decided to hate php. It took a > lot of effort to generate this kind of hate. :) I'll second that. It's not just Seth that hates php, it is a hate shared by many. -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Mon May 8 14:55:14 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 10:55:14 -0400 Subject: [fab] Project Hosting In-Reply-To: <445F5966.8010904@redhat.com> References: <1147037439.2626.12.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <1147038104.4310.59.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1147040982.2626.25.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <20060508085416.GA12606@dudweiler.stuttgart.redhat.com> <1147085175.2626.32.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <445F4F27.6090208@redhat.com> <20060508140933.GA26594@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> <445F5966.8010904@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1147100115.1951.6.camel@cutter> On Mon, 2006-05-08 at 10:44 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > Yeah, it's also the wrong conversation to have at this point. Need to > figure out 1. what you want to host and 2. what the social structures > might look like around that. Those two items will drive your choice of > SCM and hosting technology. i.e. Want something with centralized > development and avoid forks? Use SVN/CVS. Want something that allows > for local forks and encourages local (non-central) hacks? Use GIT/hg. I think what we're looking for is something that allows: 1. easy creation of new projects for people with fedora-related ideas 2. easy adding/handling of users and groups so the fedora-admin list doesn't need to be involved if someone wants to give access to another fedora contributor 3. probably something that allows a bit of divergence and eases merging back - one of the reasons I'm interested in git/hg. -sv From jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org Mon May 8 15:27:44 2006 From: jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org (Josh Boyer) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 10:27:44 -0500 Subject: [fab] Project Hosting In-Reply-To: <445F5966.8010904@redhat.com> References: <1147037439.2626.12.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <1147038104.4310.59.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1147040982.2626.25.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <20060508085416.GA12606@dudweiler.stuttgart.redhat.com> <1147085175.2626.32.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <445F4F27.6090208@redhat.com> <20060508140933.GA26594@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> <445F5966.8010904@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20060508152744.GB26594@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> On Mon, May 08, 2006 at 10:44:54AM -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > > Yeah, it's also the wrong conversation to have at this point. Need to > figure out 1. what you want to host and 2. what the social structures > might look like around that. Those two items will drive your choice of > SCM and hosting technology. i.e. Want something with centralized > development and avoid forks? Use SVN/CVS. Want something that allows > for local forks and encourages local (non-central) hacks? Use GIT/hg. The problem I see is that 2 is going to vary largely across the various projects. So you're looking at allowing SVN/CVS or GIT/hg choices. None of the options do that so far. As for what you want to host, I think you'd want to look at that on a per project basis. Some kind of evaluation by a group to see if it should really be hosted in this Grand New Place. Seth mentioned things like plague and mock, which seem to fit nicely. Things that have value to Fedora. That was probably already mentioned, but it's worth saying again. I don't think we want to go off and duplicate what sf.net does. josh From jkeating at redhat.com Mon May 8 15:32:45 2006 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 11:32:45 -0400 Subject: [fab] Project Hosting In-Reply-To: <20060508152744.GB26594@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> References: <1147037439.2626.12.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <1147038104.4310.59.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1147040982.2626.25.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <20060508085416.GA12606@dudweiler.stuttgart.redhat.com> <1147085175.2626.32.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <445F4F27.6090208@redhat.com> <20060508140933.GA26594@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> <445F5966.8010904@redhat.com> <20060508152744.GB26594@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: <1147102365.8821.16.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> On Mon, 2006-05-08 at 10:27 -0500, Josh Boyer wrote: > > As for what you want to host, I think you'd want to look at that on a per > project basis. Some kind of evaluation by a group to see if it should > really be hosted in this Grand New Place. Seth mentioned things like plague > and mock, which seem to fit nicely. Things that have value to Fedora. Anaconda ${Other_RH_Upstreamed_Software} The OLPC folks are coming up with some software that could/should be hosted externally Software used to produce Fedora -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org Mon May 8 15:35:28 2006 From: jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org (Josh Boyer) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 10:35:28 -0500 Subject: [fab] Project Hosting In-Reply-To: <1147099903.8821.13.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> References: <1147037439.2626.12.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <1147038104.4310.59.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1147040982.2626.25.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <1147099479.1951.2.camel@cutter> <1147099903.8821.13.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20060508153528.GC26594@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> On Mon, May 08, 2006 at 10:51:43AM -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Mon, 2006-05-08 at 10:44 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > > > > It's also probably fair to mention that the 'bias' against php is based > > on lots and lots of experience de-bunging systems that were rooted or > > otherwise broken b/c of incredibly poor php programming. > > > > It's not like we all woke up one day and decided to hate php. It took a > > lot of effort to generate this kind of hate. :) > > I'll second that. It's not just Seth that hates php, it is a hate > shared by many. Ok, that's a fair point. Bit of a bummer though, since I've found GForge to be one of the most usable interfaces. josh From gdk at redhat.com Mon May 8 16:14:33 2006 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 12:14:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Project Hosting In-Reply-To: <1147099903.8821.13.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> References: <1147037439.2626.12.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <1147038104.4310.59.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1147040982.2626.25.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <1147099479.1951.2.camel@cutter> <1147099903.8821.13.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: Note: I'm not saying it's an undeserved bias. :) --g ------------------------------------------------------------- Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Project || fedoraproject.org Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors ------------------------------------------------------------- On Mon, 8 May 2006, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Mon, 2006-05-08 at 10:44 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > > > > It's also probably fair to mention that the 'bias' against php is based > > on lots and lots of experience de-bunging systems that were rooted or > > otherwise broken b/c of incredibly poor php programming. > > > > It's not like we all woke up one day and decided to hate php. It took a > > lot of effort to generate this kind of hate. :) > > I'll second that. It's not just Seth that hates php, it is a hate > shared by many. > > -- > Jesse Keating > Release Engineer: Fedora > From gdk at redhat.com Mon May 8 16:20:41 2006 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 12:20:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Project Hosting In-Reply-To: <1147100115.1951.6.camel@cutter> References: <1147037439.2626.12.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <1147038104.4310.59.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1147040982.2626.25.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <20060508085416.GA12606@dudweiler.stuttgart.redhat.com> <1147085175.2626.32.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <445F4F27.6090208@redhat.com> <20060508140933.GA26594@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> <445F5966.8010904@redhat.com> <1147100115.1951.6.camel@cutter> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 May 2006, seth vidal wrote: > On Mon, 2006-05-08 at 10:44 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > > > Yeah, it's also the wrong conversation to have at this point. Need to > > figure out 1. what you want to host and 2. what the social structures > > might look like around that. Those two items will drive your choice of > > SCM and hosting technology. i.e. Want something with centralized > > development and avoid forks? Use SVN/CVS. Want something that allows > > for local forks and encourages local (non-central) hacks? Use GIT/hg. > > I think what we're looking for is something that allows: > > 1. easy creation of new projects for people with fedora-related ideas > 2. easy adding/handling of users and groups so the fedora-admin list > doesn't need to be involved if someone wants to give access to another > fedora contributor > 3. probably something that allows a bit of divergence and eases merging > back - one of the reasons I'm interested in git/hg. > > -sv So I've been seeing ad-hoc discussions around this topic for months now, and it seems like we're no farther along than we were when we started. How do we get these things to coalesce into a plan of action? To be more specific: Who is reponsible for generating the short list of "problems we want to solve with our vague new infrastructure"? Because if someone doesn't take ownership of this, step #1, then we will never get to step #2. --g ------------------------------------------------------------- Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Project || fedoraproject.org Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors ------------------------------------------------------------- From jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org Mon May 8 16:28:10 2006 From: jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org (Josh Boyer) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 11:28:10 -0500 Subject: [fab] Project Hosting In-Reply-To: References: <1147037439.2626.12.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <1147038104.4310.59.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1147040982.2626.25.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <20060508085416.GA12606@dudweiler.stuttgart.redhat.com> <1147085175.2626.32.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <445F4F27.6090208@redhat.com> <20060508140933.GA26594@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> <445F5966.8010904@redhat.com> <1147100115.1951.6.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <20060508162810.GA27922@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> On Mon, May 08, 2006 at 12:20:41PM -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > So I've been seeing ad-hoc discussions around this topic for months now, > and it seems like we're no farther along than we were when we started. > > How do we get these things to coalesce into a plan of action? To be more > specific: > > Who is reponsible for generating the short list of "problems we want to > solve with our vague new infrastructure"? > > Because if someone doesn't take ownership of this, step #1, then we will > never get to step #2. According to the board meeting minutes: "Elliot Lee needs to drive us in the direction of a solution, ideally by leading a group of folks who are interested in making real progress in solving this problem." So, who's interested in solving this problem? /me raises his hand josh From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Mon May 8 16:34:55 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 12:34:55 -0400 Subject: [fab] Project Hosting In-Reply-To: References: <1147037439.2626.12.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <1147038104.4310.59.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1147040982.2626.25.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <20060508085416.GA12606@dudweiler.stuttgart.redhat.com> <1147085175.2626.32.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <445F4F27.6090208@redhat.com> <20060508140933.GA26594@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> <445F5966.8010904@redhat.com> <1147100115.1951.6.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1147106095.1951.24.camel@cutter> On Mon, 2006-05-08 at 12:20 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > On Mon, 8 May 2006, seth vidal wrote: > So I've been seeing ad-hoc discussions around this topic for months now, > and it seems like we're no farther along than we were when we started. > > How do we get these things to coalesce into a plan of action? To be more > specific: > > Who is reponsible for generating the short list of "problems we want to > solve with our vague new infrastructure"? > > Because if someone doesn't take ownership of this, step #1, then we will > never get to step #2. Well, unless I'm mistaken it sounds like you just volunteered! :) Thanks Greg! /me runs -sv From gdk at redhat.com Mon May 8 19:53:20 2006 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 15:53:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse Message-ID: As some of you may know, I've been talking with Fernando Lopez-Lezcano about bringing Planet CCRMA officially under the Fedora banner. Fernando has taken up the challenge, and is taking a lot of the initial steps. He's moving to use yum instead of apt-get. He's giving the spec files for his packages to Extras folks for review. Things are moving. The sticking point, though, will be the kernel. High-end audio applications absolutely require the lowest latency possible, so Fernando is rolling his own kernels with Ingo Molnar's real time patches. These aren't mainline yet, and they aren't likely to be in the foreseeable future. They also can't be abstracted out into separate kernel modules, from what I've been able to divine. Therefore: we have no mechanism currently to deliver Fernando's kernel. At least, that's what I thought -- until I learned that Fedora Core is actually shipping a non-standard kernel for Xen. If you want to run a dom0 box, you boot into the Xen kernel. Which brings up a few questions for me: 1. If it's okay for RH to put nonstandard kernels into Fedora, then shouldn't it be okay for the community to put nonstandard kernels into Fedora? If not, why not? 2. Do we keep the Xen kernel close to the standard Fedora kernel? If so, how do we do that? I'd really like to be able to make Planet CCRMA a standard Fedora install by FC7. Is it possible? --g ------------------------------------------------------------- Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Project || fedoraproject.org Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors ------------------------------------------------------------- From katzj at redhat.com Mon May 8 20:05:55 2006 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 16:05:55 -0400 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1147118755.981.54.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> On Mon, 2006-05-08 at 15:53 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > 1. If it's okay for RH to put nonstandard kernels into Fedora, then > shouldn't it be okay for the community to put nonstandard kernels into > Fedora? If not, why not? Well, it pretty much *has* to be as a subpackage from the main kernel package (eg, having everything built from the exact same source tree, just different config options). Otherwise, things will inevitably lag for security issues and there's also a big problem of building kernel modules. > 2. Do we keep the Xen kernel close to the standard Fedora kernel? If so, > how do we do that? See above about it being from the same source tree. At the same time, this requires a huge effort, and I'm not even sure we're doing that good of a job with it yet. Look at rawhide since FC5 to see how often a xen kernel hasn't been present. And that's usually because it stopped building, so davej turned it off. It's essentially a full time job for Juan to keep things in sync. > I'd really like to be able to make Planet CCRMA a standard Fedora install > by FC7. Is it possible? If it's requiring kernel patches that aren't upstream, there's going to be a lot of shouting. Because it's only working marginally well right now with one kernel type that's not upstream. Introducing another into the mix makes getting the kernel to build an order of magnitude more difficult. So I'm not sure how possible it really is :-/ Jeremy From katzj at redhat.com Mon May 8 20:12:55 2006 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 16:12:55 -0400 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <1147118755.981.54.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> References: <1147118755.981.54.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1147119175.981.61.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> On Mon, 2006-05-08 at 16:05 -0400, Jeremy Katz wrote: > On Mon, 2006-05-08 at 15:53 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > 1. If it's okay for RH to put nonstandard kernels into Fedora, then > > shouldn't it be okay for the community to put nonstandard kernels into > > Fedora? If not, why not? > > Well, it pretty much *has* to be as a subpackage from the main kernel > package (eg, having everything built from the exact same source tree, > just different config options). Otherwise, things will inevitably lag > for security issues and there's also a big problem of building kernel > modules. And I didn't really answer the question very well. Arguably, it's probably *not* okay for Red Hat to do. Unfortunately, at this point, xen is probably "legacy grandfathered cruft". And the only thing that gives us any credibility in doing so is that we have someone who makes sure things keep merging/working as their full-time job. Even then, it's often problematic Jeremy From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon May 8 20:14:15 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 01:44:15 +0530 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1147119255.4310.92.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> On Mon, 2006-05-08 at 15:53 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > As some of you may know, I've been talking with Fernando Lopez-Lezcano > about bringing Planet CCRMA officially under the Fedora banner. > > Fernando has taken up the challenge, and is taking a lot of the initial > steps. He's moving to use yum instead of apt-get. He's giving the spec > files for his packages to Extras folks for review. Things are moving. > > The sticking point, though, will be the kernel. High-end audio > applications absolutely require the lowest latency possible, so Fernando > is rolling his own kernels with Ingo Molnar's real time patches. These > aren't mainline yet, and they aren't likely to be in the foreseeable > future. They also can't be abstracted out into separate kernel modules, > from what I've been able to divine. > > Therefore: we have no mechanism currently to deliver Fernando's kernel. > > At least, that's what I thought -- until I learned that Fedora Core is > actually shipping a non-standard kernel for Xen. If you want to run a > dom0 box, you boot into the Xen kernel. > > Which brings up a few questions for me: > > 1. If it's okay for RH to put nonstandard kernels into Fedora, then > shouldn't it be okay for the community to put nonstandard kernels into > Fedora? If not, why not? > It should be except that it doesnt fit into our agenda ;-). More seriously though, we already had that discussion before and there are some concerns. It would nice to get Ingo's patchset in more wider use and it might help in upstream adoption but we need to think about solving a few problems * Do we allow all kinds of alternative kernels to be packaged in Fedora? * How do we avoid kernel maintainers ending up with unrelated bug reports? * How much commitment do we have to from alternative kernel maintainers to continue maintaining them and fix security issues etc in a timely manner? * Do kernel modules being packaged in Fedora Extras and Core work across these different kernels? > 2. Do we keep the Xen kernel close to the standard Fedora kernel? If so, > how do we do that? Lot of painful grunt work from what I can see. > > I'd really like to be able to make Planet CCRMA a standard Fedora install > by FC7. Is it possible? * Would it be possible for the applications to even work without the RT patchset in Fedora? * How many different source packages are there in Planet CCRMA? * How many reviewers are interested in professional audio applications in Fedora Extras? Rahul From matt at domsch.com Mon May 8 20:44:47 2006 From: matt at domsch.com (Matt Domsch) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 15:44:47 -0500 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060508204447.GA22793@domsch.com> On Mon, May 08, 2006 at 03:53:20PM -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > 1. If it's okay for RH to put nonstandard kernels into Fedora, then > shouldn't it be okay for the community to put nonstandard kernels into > Fedora? If not, why not? I'd like to avoid kernel proliferation any more than we already have it. The shrinking of i386 and x86_64 back from both UP and SMP to just a single SMP-aware kernel was goodness (that the -PAE 4G/4G split kernel got added I just now see...) Low latency is another kernel feature, just like the plethora of kernel features that are requested, but for whatever reasons, not (yet) included upstream. Fedora has been pretty good about pushing back on such features, exactly because they become a maintenance nightmare. Given that Fedora != mainline, the non-mainline features such as PAE and Xen so far have been handled in separate kernels. Continuing to split out such features into separate kernels isn't scalable though... I could see adding one "bitbucket" kernel though, with several prototype features. The purpose behind the bitbucket would be to give exposure to features which need more baking before hitting mainline (but with the stated plan that if they were rejected permanently from mainline, they get dropped). Ideally it would be exactly the -mm kernel, to reduce the maintenance burden. Someone(s) (not DaveJ) would have to agree to maintain it though. We want to encourage kernel "features" to be merged into mainline. We don't want to maintain lots of out-of-mainline features. -mm could provide that experience. -Matt From katzj at redhat.com Mon May 8 20:48:02 2006 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 16:48:02 -0400 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <20060508204447.GA22793@domsch.com> References: <20060508204447.GA22793@domsch.com> Message-ID: <1147121282.981.69.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> On Mon, 2006-05-08 at 15:44 -0500, Matt Domsch wrote: > On Mon, May 08, 2006 at 03:53:20PM -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > 1. If it's okay for RH to put nonstandard kernels into Fedora, then > > shouldn't it be okay for the community to put nonstandard kernels into > > Fedora? If not, why not? > > I'd like to avoid kernel proliferation any more than we already have > it. The shrinking of i386 and x86_64 back from both UP and SMP to > just a single SMP-aware kernel was goodness Indeed. I have a dream of someday having a single kernel per arch... it would make so many things work so much better for users. > Given that Fedora != mainline, the non-mainline features such as PAE > and Xen so far have been handled in separate kernels. Continuing to > split out such features into separate kernels isn't scalable though... Note that the PAE stuff is upstream -- kernel-PAE is a kernel with CONFIG_HIGHMEM64, not the 4/4 split stuff Jeremy From jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org Mon May 8 21:02:31 2006 From: jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org (Josh Boyer) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 16:02:31 -0500 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <20060508204447.GA22793@domsch.com> References: <20060508204447.GA22793@domsch.com> Message-ID: <20060508210231.GB28401@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> On Mon, May 08, 2006 at 03:44:47PM -0500, Matt Domsch wrote: > On Mon, May 08, 2006 at 03:53:20PM -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > 1. If it's okay for RH to put nonstandard kernels into Fedora, then > > shouldn't it be okay for the community to put nonstandard kernels into > > Fedora? If not, why not? > > > I could see adding one "bitbucket" kernel though, with several > prototype features. The purpose behind the bitbucket would be to give > exposure to features which need more baking before hitting mainline > (but with the stated plan that if they were rejected permanently from > mainline, they get dropped). Ideally it would be exactly the -mm > kernel, to reduce the maintenance burden. Someone(s) (not DaveJ) > would have to agree to maintain it though. Ideally, sure. But have you seen akpm's emails about -mm recently? Things like "it seems to compile" as the description for a -mm release don't particularly inspire one to run out and offer to support pushing this to the Fedora masses. I like the idea, I really do. It would theoretically improve the upstream kernel too. But it's a metric crap-ton of work just to get the thing building and working on a single platform. Is there anyone crazy enough to try and support this? Handling the bug reports alone could be a full time job. josh From jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org Mon May 8 20:41:02 2006 From: jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org (Josh Boyer) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 15:41:02 -0500 Subject: [fab] Project Hosting In-Reply-To: References: <1147037439.2626.12.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <1147038104.4310.59.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1147040982.2626.25.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: <20060508204102.GA28401@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> On Mon, May 08, 2006 at 10:37:26AM -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > On Sun, 7 May 2006, Josh Boyer wrote: > > > The current options are: > > > > 1) Savannah > > 2) Sourceforge > > 3) GForge > > 4) Roll-your-own > > > > 1, 2, and 3 all offer pretty much the same things in various flavors. > > CVS/SVN, mailing lists, "trackers", etc. I happen to have used them all > > too. The largest issue here is whether to just use the existing sf.net/ > > savannah.{non-}gnu.org/gforge.org sites, or to do installations of them > > ourselves. > > > > I know a coupl people that have done administration for large > > Sourceforge and GForge installations. I'll ask around and get their > > opinions on some of the issues in dealing with them. > > > > Roll-your-own has obvious startup/development overhead in addition to > > some of the admin issues that the others bring. > > > > Is that a sufficient summary, or have I missed something? > > It's probably worth mentioning the general bias against PHP, which > would seem to take GForge right out of the running. I've been told that savannah and sf are also PHP based. So now we're down to roll-your-own if PHP is out. My sysadmin guy also said that savannah is a "crusty-ass" version of SF, which doesn't give me warm fuzzies anyway. He did mention Trac. It's a free software SCM and Project Management tool that seems to be based on python. http://www.edgewall.com/trac Maybe that is worth looking into. josh From blizzard at redhat.com Mon May 8 22:57:51 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 18:57:51 -0400 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <1147118755.981.54.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> References: <1147118755.981.54.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <445FCCEF.6000804@redhat.com> We're going to need to do something similar for One Laptop at some point, but I'm hoping that will just be a kernel variant, not an entirely separate package. But we'll need some weird stuff in any case. Compressing memory on the fly, odd memory management and VM stuff, etc. This is going to be more and more of a problem, not less. How do we get bleeding edge features into the kernel without causing pain to our kernel guys? Can we get the kernel guys to just start using an external git repo for everything to start? (Are they already doing that now?) Is there a way we can re-think our processes so that we can actually make this easier for our kernel folks instead of making it harder? Does the kernel still use pristine source + patches, or are we just using a random git tree? --Chris From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon May 8 23:05:04 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 04:35:04 +0530 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <445FCCEF.6000804@redhat.com> References: <1147118755.981.54.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> <445FCCEF.6000804@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1147129504.4310.153.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> On Mon, 2006-05-08 at 18:57 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > We're going to need to do something similar for One Laptop at some > point, but I'm hoping that will just be a kernel variant, not an > entirely separate package. But we'll need some weird stuff in any case. > Compressing memory on the fly, odd memory management and VM stuff, etc. > > This is going to be more and more of a problem, not less. How do we get > bleeding edge features into the kernel without causing pain to our > kernel guys? Can we get the kernel guys to just start using an external > git repo for everything to start? (Are they already doing that now?) > Is there a way we can re-think our processes so that we can actually > make this easier for our kernel folks instead of making it harder? > > Does the kernel still use pristine source + patches, or are we just > using a random git tree? pristine source + patches. Rahul From jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org Tue May 9 00:30:34 2006 From: jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org (Josh Boyer) Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 19:30:34 -0500 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <1147129504.4310.153.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> References: <1147118755.981.54.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> <445FCCEF.6000804@redhat.com> <1147129504.4310.153.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1147134634.2512.23.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> On Tue, 2006-05-09 at 04:35 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > On Mon, 2006-05-08 at 18:57 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > > We're going to need to do something similar for One Laptop at some > > point, but I'm hoping that will just be a kernel variant, not an > > entirely separate package. But we'll need some weird stuff in any case. > > Compressing memory on the fly, odd memory management and VM stuff, etc. > > > > This is going to be more and more of a problem, not less. How do we get > > bleeding edge features into the kernel without causing pain to our > > kernel guys? Can we get the kernel guys to just start using an external > > git repo for everything to start? (Are they already doing that now?) > > Is there a way we can re-think our processes so that we can actually > > make this easier for our kernel folks instead of making it harder? > > > > Does the kernel still use pristine source + patches, or are we just > > using a random git tree? > > pristine source + patches. That's what's in CVS. I was talking with Jeremy about this on IRC this past weekend. There are git trees inside of RH that the kernel developers use, and patches are generated from that. Maybe not everyone uses them, but the git trees do exist. Getting a git tree (or trees) opened up might help. For projects like OLPC, it could help quite a bit. People see those changes as they happen and you can get feedback that much sooner. But for projects like Xen, I'm not too sure. That lives largely in it's own community and while RH is certainly a big player, getting those changes upstream is largely the responsibility of the Xensource folks. Publishing git trees is only one part though. That's the easy part. The hard part is when you want to take these kernels, package them into RPMs, and have them actually be used by mere mortals. That's what Greg is getting at. He wants to package the CCRMA kernel so it can be used by people via RPM. Or at least that's what I think he wants to do. josh From tcallawa at redhat.com Tue May 9 00:36:34 2006 From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom 'spot' Callaway) Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 19:36:34 -0500 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2006-05-08 at 15:53 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > 1. If it's okay for RH to put nonstandard kernels into Fedora, then > shouldn't it be okay for the community to put nonstandard kernels into > Fedora? If not, why not? I think the reasons why we don't want to do this have been made quite clear. Its a maintenance nightmare. I already told the OpenVZ folks that we couldn't have a "VZ enabled" kernel package in Fedora unless it went into upstream (or they could convince Dave Jones to include it in his SRPM). ~spot -- Tom "spot" Callaway: Red Hat Senior Sales Engineer || GPG ID: 93054260 Fedora Extras Steering Committee Member (RPM Standards and Practices) Aurora Linux Project Leader: http://auroralinux.org Lemurs, llamas, and sparcs, oh my! From katzj at redhat.com Tue May 9 00:48:53 2006 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 20:48:53 -0400 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <445FCCEF.6000804@redhat.com> References: <1147118755.981.54.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> <445FCCEF.6000804@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1147135733.13841.6.camel@aglarond.local> On Mon, 2006-05-08 at 18:57 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > We're going to need to do something similar for One Laptop at some > point, but I'm hoping that will just be a kernel variant, not an > entirely separate package. But we'll need some weird stuff in any case. > Compressing memory on the fly, odd memory management and VM stuff, etc. > > This is going to be more and more of a problem, not less. How do we get > bleeding edge features into the kernel without causing pain to our > kernel guys? Can we get the kernel guys to just start using an external > git repo for everything to start? (Are they already doing that now?) > Is there a way we can re-think our processes so that we can actually > make this easier for our kernel folks instead of making it harder? Git repos don't magically fix things, though. What happens when patches fail to merge cleanly (common) or things just fail to build (more common). Just "use an external git repo" doesn't help the fundamental problem which is that the upstream kernel moves very quickly across the entire source tree. Therefore, any set of changes which aren't extremely isolated (eg, beyond a driver) is highly unlikely to Just Work without a significant effort. And I don't see any simple process changes on our side making things magically better. > Does the kernel still use pristine source + patches, or are we just > using a random git tree? It's pristine source + patches, although there tends to be "latest Linus -git snapshot" as a patch. Trying to merge *more* trees than that makes it just that much harder to a) manage and b) get upstream kernel developers to care about any bugs. Which, given the resources for fixing Fedora kernel bugs, the latter is incredibly vital Jeremy From jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org Tue May 9 01:00:23 2006 From: jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org (Josh Boyer) Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 20:00:23 -0500 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <1147134634.2512.23.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> References: <1147118755.981.54.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> <445FCCEF.6000804@redhat.com> <1147129504.4310.153.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1147134634.2512.23.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: <1147136423.2512.27.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> On Mon, 2006-05-08 at 19:30 -0500, Josh Boyer wrote: > On Tue, 2006-05-09 at 04:35 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > On Mon, 2006-05-08 at 18:57 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > > > We're going to need to do something similar for One Laptop at some > > > point, but I'm hoping that will just be a kernel variant, not an > > > entirely separate package. But we'll need some weird stuff in any case. > > > Compressing memory on the fly, odd memory management and VM stuff, etc. > > > > > > This is going to be more and more of a problem, not less. How do we get > > > bleeding edge features into the kernel without causing pain to our > > > kernel guys? Can we get the kernel guys to just start using an external > > > git repo for everything to start? (Are they already doing that now?) > > > Is there a way we can re-think our processes so that we can actually > > > make this easier for our kernel folks instead of making it harder? > > > > > > Does the kernel still use pristine source + patches, or are we just > > > using a random git tree? > > > > pristine source + patches. > > That's what's in CVS. I was talking with Jeremy about this on IRC this > past weekend. There are git trees inside of RH that the kernel > developers use, and patches are generated from that. Maybe not everyone > uses them, but the git trees do exist. I might have misspoke on that. Seems I misunderstood our IRC conversation. Or I'm just confused. josh From tburke at redhat.com Tue May 9 02:33:56 2006 From: tburke at redhat.com (Tim Burke) Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 22:33:56 -0400 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> Tom 'spot' Callaway wrote: > On Mon, 2006-05-08 at 15:53 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > >> 1. If it's okay for RH to put nonstandard kernels into Fedora, then >> shouldn't it be okay for the community to put nonstandard kernels into >> Fedora? If not, why not? >> > > I think the reasons why we don't want to do this have been made quite > clear. Its a maintenance nightmare. I already told the OpenVZ folks that > we couldn't have a "VZ enabled" kernel package in Fedora unless it went > into upstream (or they could convince Dave Jones to include it in his > SRPM). > > Just to share some exposure into what it takes to keep a non-standard kernel working in the Fedora tree: - Pretty much a full-time dedicated highly experienced kernel developer to spend the vast majority of their time playing patch monkey to keep up with the high rate of upstream change. We have someone doing this role for Xen and its more than a fulltime job. Same thing would have to happen for an OLPC kernel. Certainly the amount of work is commensurate with the nature of the changes. Having seen the RT patch set, that is invasive and would also require similar effort. - Above has to be done daily, virtually in realtime. The minute that kernel build breaks (which will be frequently), it will be disabled in the build makefiles. If it remains disabled for extended periods of time then end users in the community get disgruntled. - DaveJ is currently teetering on the edge of sanity, and doesn't need one more straw to break the camel's back. - As was pointed out earlier, the path to the Fedora kernel leads from upstream. In short, its generally hugely expensive in terms of ongoing manual labor/torture to keep another kernel afloat. Not to mention that as Matt points out, any layered kernel modules (ie the dirty decoder/codec like stuff) won't work, or otherwise fragment the user base. From smooge at gmail.com Tue May 9 03:32:03 2006 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 21:32:03 -0600 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> Message-ID: <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> On 5/8/06, Tim Burke wrote: > Tom 'spot' Callaway wrote: > > On Mon, 2006-05-08 at 15:53 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > > > > >> 1. If it's okay for RH to put nonstandard kernels into Fedora, then > >> shouldn't it be okay for the community to put nonstandard kernels into > >> Fedora? If not, why not? > >> > > > > I think the reasons why we don't want to do this have been made quite > > clear. Its a maintenance nightmare. I already told the OpenVZ folks that > > we couldn't have a "VZ enabled" kernel package in Fedora unless it went > > into upstream (or they could convince Dave Jones to include it in his > > SRPM). > > > > > Just to share some exposure into what it takes to keep a non-standard > kernel working in the Fedora tree: > - Pretty much a full-time dedicated highly experienced kernel developer > to spend the vast majority of their time playing patch monkey to keep up > with the high rate of upstream change. We have someone doing this role > for Xen and its more than a fulltime job. Same thing would have to > happen for an OLPC kernel. Certainly the amount of work is commensurate > with the nature of the changes. Having seen the RT patch set, that is > invasive and would also require similar effort. > - Above has to be done daily, virtually in realtime. The minute that > kernel build breaks (which will be frequently), it will be disabled in > the build makefiles. If it remains disabled for extended periods of > time then end users in the community get disgruntled. > - DaveJ is currently teetering on the edge of sanity, and doesn't need > one more straw to break the camel's back. > - As was pointed out earlier, the path to the Fedora kernel leads from > upstream. > > In short, its generally hugely expensive in terms of ongoing manual > labor/torture to keep another kernel afloat. Not to mention that as > Matt points out, any layered kernel modules (ie the dirty decoder/codec > like stuff) won't work, or otherwise fragment the user base. > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board > -- Stephen J Smoogen. CSIRT/Linux System Administrator From smooge at gmail.com Tue May 9 03:39:26 2006 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 21:39:26 -0600 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> On 5/8/06, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > On 5/8/06, Tim Burke wrote: > > Tom 'spot' Callaway wrote: > > > On Mon, 2006-05-08 at 15:53 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > > > > > > > >> 1. If it's okay for RH to put nonstandard kernels into Fedora, then > > >> shouldn't it be okay for the community to put nonstandard kernels into > > >> Fedora? If not, why not? > > >> > > > > > > I think the reasons why we don't want to do this have been made quite > > > clear. Its a maintenance nightmare. I already told the OpenVZ folks that > > > we couldn't have a "VZ enabled" kernel package in Fedora unless it went > > > into upstream (or they could convince Dave Jones to include it in his > > > SRPM). > > > > > > > > Just to share some exposure into what it takes to keep a non-standard > > kernel working in the Fedora tree: > > - Pretty much a full-time dedicated highly experienced kernel developer > > to spend the vast majority of their time playing patch monkey to keep up > > with the high rate of upstream change. We have someone doing this role > > for Xen and its more than a fulltime job. Same thing would have to > > happen for an OLPC kernel. Certainly the amount of work is commensurate > > with the nature of the changes. Having seen the RT patch set, that is > Sorry about that.. my mousepad send the email before I even got started. I think that this request may fit into more of an Alternatives project where multiple kernels and other tools might be able to look at. -- Stephen J Smoogen. CSIRT/Linux System Administrator From gdk at redhat.com Tue May 9 04:01:23 2006 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 00:01:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 May 2006, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > I think that this request may fit into more of an Alternatives project > where multiple kernels and other tools might be able to look at. Yeah. We killed off Alternatives a while back -- not because it wasn't a good idea, but because it wasn't a good idea at the time. Here's the fallback position: Fernando continues to maintain the CCRMA kernel in his own yum repo, and *everything else* gets pulled into Extras over time. (To the best of my knowledge, none of the CCRMA apps *require* the CCRMA kernel -- it's just a huge help for getting any actual work done.) That way, at least Fernando has a mechanism to spread the workload for maintaining CCRMA among several assistants, and can spend most of his time maintaining his own kernel as he sees fit. Meanwhile, we wait for the day when Ingo's realtime patches make it into the mainline kernels. When that day comes, the CCRMA project goes away. Makes sense to me, now that I have a better sense of the pain involved. --g ------------------------------------------------------------- Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Project || fedoraproject.org Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors ------------------------------------------------------------- From jkeating at redhat.com Tue May 9 04:11:10 2006 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 00:11:10 -0400 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1147147870.2126.22.camel@ender> On Tue, 2006-05-09 at 00:01 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > Here's the fallback position: Fernando continues to maintain the CCRMA > kernel in his own yum repo, and *everything else* gets pulled into > Extras > over time. (To the best of my knowledge, none of the CCRMA apps > *require* > the CCRMA kernel -- it's just a huge help for getting any actual work > done.) That way, at least Fernando has a mechanism to spread the > workload > for maintaining CCRMA among several assistants, and can spend most of > his > time maintaining his own kernel as he sees fit. > Or do we fire up thoughts on Alternatives again? Somewhere that we can host replacement packages that folks can use to assemble 'Fedora' variants but not be tied to the kernel or whatever. If we use the same rules, or come up with a good rule set for Alternatives, same package quality, same build systems, etc... we should be able to call it Fedora. -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Tue May 9 04:56:47 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 00:56:47 -0400 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <1147147870.2126.22.camel@ender> References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> <1147147870.2126.22.camel@ender> Message-ID: <1147150607.5943.32.camel@cutter> On Tue, 2006-05-09 at 00:11 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Tue, 2006-05-09 at 00:01 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > Here's the fallback position: Fernando continues to maintain the CCRMA > > kernel in his own yum repo, and *everything else* gets pulled into > > Extras > > over time. (To the best of my knowledge, none of the CCRMA apps > > *require* > > the CCRMA kernel -- it's just a huge help for getting any actual work > > done.) That way, at least Fernando has a mechanism to spread the > > workload > > for maintaining CCRMA among several assistants, and can spend most of > > his > > time maintaining his own kernel as he sees fit. > > > > Or do we fire up thoughts on Alternatives again? Somewhere that we can > host replacement packages that folks can use to assemble 'Fedora' > variants but not be tied to the kernel or whatever. If we use the same > rules, or come up with a good rule set for Alternatives, same package > quality, same build systems, etc... we should be able to call it Fedora. > Some complexity in enabling Alternatives: 1. we can't enable alternatives by default - the obsoletes it could allow would eat packages for people who really just want to use core. 2. create a sensible way of dealing with conflicts - something we don't really need to deal with right now. 3. dealing with alternative tree creation and QA. What if a user creates a fedora 'distro' using an alternatives kernel? How does that impact testing? How do we cope with the near endless number of combination or configurations we might get? -sv From fedora at leemhuis.info Tue May 9 05:12:16 2006 From: fedora at leemhuis.info (Thorsten Leemhuis) Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 07:12:16 +0200 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1147151537.4115.13.camel@thl.ct.heise.de> /me is late in the discussion -- and it seems everything important is already said. Just to make sure: I also don't like the idea of having kernels in extras or adding a CCRMA-Kernel to core. What I fear most besides the maintenance nightmare: openVZ, vserver, swsusp2, reiser4 would probably want their own Fedora-Kernel in that case, too. And I don't think we really want that ;-) Am Dienstag, den 09.05.2006, 00:01 -0400 schrieb Greg DeKoenigsberg: > > Here's the fallback position: Fernando continues to maintain the CCRMA > kernel in his own yum repo, and *everything else* gets pulled into Extras > over time. (To the best of my knowledge, none of the CCRMA apps *require* > the CCRMA kernel -- it's just a huge help for getting any actual work > done.) That way, at least Fernando has a mechanism to spread the workload > for maintaining CCRMA among several assistants, and can spend most of his > time maintaining his own kernel as he sees fit. > > Meanwhile, we wait for the day when Ingo's realtime patches make it into > the mainline kernels. When that day comes, the CCRMA project goes away. +1 CU thl From matt at domsch.com Tue May 9 09:00:43 2006 From: matt at domsch.com (Matt Domsch) Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 04:00:43 -0500 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060509090043.GA22655@domsch.com> On Tue, May 09, 2006 at 12:01:23AM -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > Here's the fallback position: Fernando continues to maintain the CCRMA > kernel in his own yum repo, and *everything else* gets pulled into Extras > over time. (To the best of my knowledge, none of the CCRMA apps *require* > the CCRMA kernel -- it's just a huge help for getting any actual work > done.) That way, at least Fernando has a mechanism to spread the workload > for maintaining CCRMA among several assistants, and can spend most of his > time maintaining his own kernel as he sees fit. +1 > Meanwhile, we wait for the day when Ingo's realtime patches make it into > the mainline kernels. When that day comes, the CCRMA project goes away. or perhaps it morphs into a Multimedia or Audio SIG? That could happen even before the kernel parts are native. -Matt From sct at redhat.com Tue May 9 10:41:45 2006 From: sct at redhat.com (Stephen C. Tweedie) Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 11:41:45 +0100 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <1147134634.2512.23.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> References: <1147118755.981.54.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> <445FCCEF.6000804@redhat.com> <1147129504.4310.153.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1147134634.2512.23.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: <1147171305.5242.3.camel@sisko.sctweedie.blueyonder.co.uk> Hi, On Mon, 2006-05-08 at 19:30 -0500, Josh Boyer wrote: > That's what's in CVS. I was talking with Jeremy about this on IRC this > past weekend. There are git trees inside of RH that the kernel > developers use, and patches are generated from that. No, the raw input is still the CVS+patches. We sometimes use git to synchronise different CVS trees --- we did this for the Xen patches when they were in a separate repository, for example. But that was just used to merge things between two different CVS repositories, each maintained primarily as pristine source plus patches. --Stephen From rdieter at math.unl.edu Tue May 9 12:44:00 2006 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 07:44:00 -0500 Subject: [fab] Re: Alternatives In-Reply-To: <1147151537.4115.13.camel@thl.ct.heise.de> References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> <1147151537.4115.13.camel@thl.ct.heise.de> Message-ID: <44608E90.2050001@math.unl.edu> Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > /me is late in the discussion -- and it seems everything important is > already said. > > Just to make sure: I also don't like the idea of having kernels in > extras or adding a CCRMA-Kernel to core. What I fear most besides the > maintenance nightmare: openVZ, vserver, swsusp2, reiser4 other projects> would probably want their own Fedora-Kernel in that > case, too. And I don't think we really want that ;-) As I see it, the bigger picture here is whether to resurrect Alternatives or not. If so, the kernel can be treated just like any other alternative (ie, core-replacing pkg). As long as someone steps up to maintain it, I have no problem with alternative kernels. As a corollary, I'd venture the likelihood of volunteers to be kernel maintainers to be small. Personally, I'm in favor of the general idea of Alternatives, but if it's going to happen, it will require a lot of time, care and feeding, having it's own set of complications and a need for clear standards and rules. -- Rex From katzj at redhat.com Tue May 9 14:31:31 2006 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 10:31:31 -0400 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <1147147870.2126.22.camel@ender> References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> <1147147870.2126.22.camel@ender> Message-ID: <1147185091.26347.15.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> On Tue, 2006-05-09 at 00:11 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Tue, 2006-05-09 at 00:01 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > Here's the fallback position: Fernando continues to maintain the CCRMA > > kernel in his own yum repo, and *everything else* gets pulled into > > Extras > > over time. (To the best of my knowledge, none of the CCRMA apps > > *require* > > the CCRMA kernel -- it's just a huge help for getting any actual work > > done.) That way, at least Fernando has a mechanism to spread the > > workload > > for maintaining CCRMA among several assistants, and can spend most of > > his > > time maintaining his own kernel as he sees fit. > > > Or do we fire up thoughts on Alternatives again? Somewhere that we can > host replacement packages that folks can use to assemble 'Fedora' > variants but not be tied to the kernel or whatever. If we use the same > rules, or come up with a good rule set for Alternatives, same package > quality, same build systems, etc... we should be able to call it Fedora. How do you define "same package quality" if it's an alternate implementation? And starting to get bug reports from J. Foo's Fedora that has a drastically different kernel or glibc or ... is going to make things very very difficult for developers. Jeremy From katzj at redhat.com Tue May 9 14:31:32 2006 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 10:31:32 -0400 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1147185093.26347.16.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> On Tue, 2006-05-09 at 00:01 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > On Mon, 8 May 2006, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > > I think that this request may fit into more of an Alternatives project > > where multiple kernels and other tools might be able to look at. > > Yeah. We killed off Alternatives a while back -- not because it wasn't a > good idea, but because it wasn't a good idea at the time. I'm still not convinced it's a good idea... it does little to encourage actually getting things merged. And lots of forks ==> more work. > Here's the fallback position: Fernando continues to maintain the CCRMA > kernel in his own yum repo, and *everything else* gets pulled into Extras > over time. (To the best of my knowledge, none of the CCRMA apps *require* > the CCRMA kernel -- it's just a huge help for getting any actual work > done.) That way, at least Fernando has a mechanism to spread the workload > for maintaining CCRMA among several assistants, and can spend most of his > time maintaining his own kernel as he sees fit. While that can work, I think this puts users in the worst place as a non-mainline kernel will inevitably lag in terms of security fixes, etc. And any kernel modules that are built in Extras won't be able to be used for that kernel. Jeremy From katzj at redhat.com Tue May 9 14:32:16 2006 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 10:32:16 -0400 Subject: [fab] Re: Alternatives In-Reply-To: <44608E90.2050001@math.unl.edu> References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> <1147151537.4115.13.camel@thl.ct.heise.de> <44608E90.2050001@math.unl.edu> Message-ID: <1147185136.26347.17.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> On Tue, 2006-05-09 at 07:44 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote: > Personally, I'm in favor of the general idea of Alternatives, but if > it's going to happen, it will require a lot of time, care and feeding, > having it's own set of complications and a need for clear standards and > rules. And a way of strong differentiation from stock Fedora. At which point, what is the value proposition of the Fedora name? Jeremy From gdk at redhat.com Tue May 9 14:35:08 2006 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 10:35:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <20060509090043.GA22655@domsch.com> References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> <20060509090043.GA22655@domsch.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 May 2006, Matt Domsch wrote: > On Tue, May 09, 2006 at 12:01:23AM -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > Here's the fallback position: Fernando continues to maintain the CCRMA > > kernel in his own yum repo, and *everything else* gets pulled into Extras > > over time. (To the best of my knowledge, none of the CCRMA apps *require* > > the CCRMA kernel -- it's just a huge help for getting any actual work > > done.) That way, at least Fernando has a mechanism to spread the workload > > for maintaining CCRMA among several assistants, and can spend most of his > > time maintaining his own kernel as he sees fit. > > +1 > > > Meanwhile, we wait for the day when Ingo's realtime patches make it into > > the mainline kernels. When that day comes, the CCRMA project goes away. > > or perhaps it morphs into a Multimedia or Audio SIG? That could > happen even before the kernel parts are native. > > -Matt Yes, that's what I meant. --g ------------------------------------------------------------- Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Project || fedoraproject.org Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors ------------------------------------------------------------- From rdieter at math.unl.edu Tue May 9 14:47:55 2006 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 09:47:55 -0500 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <1147185093.26347.16.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> <1147185093.26347.16.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <4460AB9B.9080704@math.unl.edu> Jeremy Katz wrote: > On Tue, 2006-05-09 at 00:01 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: >> On Mon, 8 May 2006, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: >>> I think that this request may fit into more of an Alternatives project >>> where multiple kernels and other tools might be able to look at. >> Yeah. We killed off Alternatives a while back -- not because it wasn't a >> good idea, but because it wasn't a good idea at the time. > > I'm still not convinced it's a good idea... it does little to encourage > actually getting things merged. And lots of forks ==> more work. Yeah, but it's not *your* work, it's someone else who *wants* to do it. I think we should foster an empowering environment, and not take a stance of "you can't do that!". >> Here's the fallback position: Fernando continues to maintain the CCRMA >> kernel in his own yum repo, and *everything else* gets pulled into Extras >> over time. (To the best of my knowledge, none of the CCRMA apps *require* >> the CCRMA kernel -- it's just a huge help for getting any actual work >> done.) That way, at least Fernando has a mechanism to spread the workload >> for maintaining CCRMA among several assistants, and can spend most of his >> time maintaining his own kernel as he sees fit. > > While that can work, I think this puts users in the worst place as a > non-mainline kernel will inevitably lag in terms of security fixes, etc. > And any kernel modules that are built in Extras won't be able to be used > for that kernel. Well, that should be their (the users') call to make, understanding the risks/rewards for using bits from Alternatives (of CCRMA). -- Rex From gdk at redhat.com Tue May 9 14:46:10 2006 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 10:46:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Re: Alternatives In-Reply-To: <44608E90.2050001@math.unl.edu> References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> <1147151537.4115.13.camel@thl.ct.heise.de> <44608E90.2050001@math.unl.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 May 2006, Rex Dieter wrote: > Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > > /me is late in the discussion -- and it seems everything important is > > already said. > > > > Just to make sure: I also don't like the idea of having kernels in > > extras or adding a CCRMA-Kernel to core. What I fear most besides the > > maintenance nightmare: openVZ, vserver, swsusp2, reiser4 > other projects> would probably want their own Fedora-Kernel in that > > case, too. And I don't think we really want that ;-) > > As I see it, the bigger picture here is whether to resurrect > Alternatives or not. > > If so, the kernel can be treated just like any other alternative (ie, > core-replacing pkg). As long as someone steps up to maintain it, I have > no problem with alternative kernels. As a corollary, I'd venture the > likelihood of volunteers to be kernel maintainers to be small. > > Personally, I'm in favor of the general idea of Alternatives, but if > it's going to happen, it will require a lot of time, care and feeding, > having its own set of complications and a need for clear standards and > rules. And these, of course, are the reasons we ditched it in the first place. That was before we had a lot of the pieces we have now, though. We're probably in a better place to do it now... if enough people see the value. I think they probably would -- but working out sane policy will be quite a challenge, I think. Moreover, I'm not sure I see "Alternatives" as a single repo. Rather, I see "Alternatives" as a way to label various repos. Perhaps a "Fedora Alternatives" repo is any repo that: a) Meets the general criteria for Fedora from a freedom perspective; b) Replaces packages in Core or Extras; c) Together with Core and Extras, defines a consistent package universe. I think that trying to reconcile separate "Alternatives" repos to one another would be complete insanity -- but a responsible Alternative repo manager could probably maintain 10 or 20 packages in a consistent way. The biggest problem I see is attribution of bugs that pop up in Alternatives-based installs. That could be a nightmare. --g ------------------------------------------------------------- Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Project || fedoraproject.org Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors ------------------------------------------------------------- From rdieter at math.unl.edu Tue May 9 14:49:24 2006 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 09:49:24 -0500 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <1147185091.26347.15.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> <1147147870.2126.22.camel@ender> <1147185091.26347.15.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <4460ABF4.1040703@math.unl.edu> Jeremy Katz wrote: > On Tue, 2006-05-09 at 00:11 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: >> On Tue, 2006-05-09 at 00:01 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: >>> Here's the fallback position: Fernando continues to maintain the CCRMA >>> kernel in his own yum repo, and *everything else* gets pulled into >>> Extras >>> over time. (To the best of my knowledge, none of the CCRMA apps >>> *require* >>> the CCRMA kernel -- it's just a huge help for getting any actual work >>> done.) That way, at least Fernando has a mechanism to spread the >>> workload >>> for maintaining CCRMA among several assistants, and can spend most of >>> his >>> time maintaining his own kernel as he sees fit. >>> >> Or do we fire up thoughts on Alternatives again? Somewhere that we can >> host replacement packages that folks can use to assemble 'Fedora' >> variants but not be tied to the kernel or whatever. If we use the same >> rules, or come up with a good rule set for Alternatives, same package >> quality, same build systems, etc... we should be able to call it Fedora. > > How do you define "same package quality" if it's an alternate > implementation? It follows the same packaging standards, review process, etc... > And starting to get bug reports from J. Foo's Fedora > that has a drastically different kernel or glibc or ... is going to make > things very very difficult for developers. Not for you, for whoever is maintaining the Alternatives pkg. -- Rex From katzj at redhat.com Tue May 9 14:51:19 2006 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 10:51:19 -0400 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <4460AB9B.9080704@math.unl.edu> References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> <1147185093.26347.16.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> <4460AB9B.9080704@math.unl.edu> Message-ID: <1147186279.26347.33.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> On Tue, 2006-05-09 at 09:47 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote: > Jeremy Katz wrote: > > On Tue, 2006-05-09 at 00:01 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > >> On Mon, 8 May 2006, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > >>> I think that this request may fit into more of an Alternatives project > >>> where multiple kernels and other tools might be able to look at. > >> Yeah. We killed off Alternatives a while back -- not because it wasn't a > >> good idea, but because it wasn't a good idea at the time. > > > > I'm still not convinced it's a good idea... it does little to encourage > > actually getting things merged. And lots of forks ==> more work. > > Yeah, but it's not *your* work, it's someone else who *wants* to do it. > I think we should foster an empowering environment, and not take a > stance of "you can't do that!". Except that bugs inevitably get misfiled or misattributed and so it is a significant chunk of work. > >> Here's the fallback position: Fernando continues to maintain the CCRMA > >> kernel in his own yum repo, and *everything else* gets pulled into Extras > >> over time. (To the best of my knowledge, none of the CCRMA apps *require* > >> the CCRMA kernel -- it's just a huge help for getting any actual work > >> done.) That way, at least Fernando has a mechanism to spread the workload > >> for maintaining CCRMA among several assistants, and can spend most of his > >> time maintaining his own kernel as he sees fit. > > > > While that can work, I think this puts users in the worst place as a > > non-mainline kernel will inevitably lag in terms of security fixes, etc. > > And any kernel modules that are built in Extras won't be able to be used > > for that kernel. > > Well, that should be their (the users') call to make, understanding the > risks/rewards for using bits from Alternatives (of CCRMA). Explaining that clearly is not going to be easy, if it's even possible. Jeremy From katzj at redhat.com Tue May 9 14:53:02 2006 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 10:53:02 -0400 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <4460ABF4.1040703@math.unl.edu> References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> <1147147870.2126.22.camel@ender> <1147185091.26347.15.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> <4460ABF4.1040703@math.unl.edu> Message-ID: <1147186382.26347.36.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> On Tue, 2006-05-09 at 09:49 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote: > Jeremy Katz wrote: > > On Tue, 2006-05-09 at 00:11 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > >> On Tue, 2006-05-09 at 00:01 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > >>> Here's the fallback position: Fernando continues to maintain the CCRMA > >>> kernel in his own yum repo, and *everything else* gets pulled into > >>> Extras > >>> over time. (To the best of my knowledge, none of the CCRMA apps > >>> *require* > >>> the CCRMA kernel -- it's just a huge help for getting any actual work > >>> done.) That way, at least Fernando has a mechanism to spread the > >>> workload > >>> for maintaining CCRMA among several assistants, and can spend most of > >>> his > >>> time maintaining his own kernel as he sees fit. > >>> > >> Or do we fire up thoughts on Alternatives again? Somewhere that we can > >> host replacement packages that folks can use to assemble 'Fedora' > >> variants but not be tied to the kernel or whatever. If we use the same > >> rules, or come up with a good rule set for Alternatives, same package > >> quality, same build systems, etc... we should be able to call it Fedora. > > > > How do you define "same package quality" if it's an alternate > > implementation? > > It follows the same packaging standards, review process, etc... But it hasn't followed the same review process as the patches that make it an alternative haven't been through the review process of the upstream community. > > And starting to get bug reports from J. Foo's Fedora > > that has a drastically different kernel or glibc or ... is going to make > > things very very difficult for developers. > > Not for you, for whoever is maintaining the Alternatives pkg. And when the alternative package has a subtle interaction with other packages breaking them? And these things *do* happen... we're starting to see some of them already with Xen and have previously seen them with other packages changing. Jeremy From jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org Tue May 9 14:53:55 2006 From: jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org (Josh Boyer) Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 09:53:55 -0500 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <4460ABF4.1040703@math.unl.edu> References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> <1147147870.2126.22.camel@ender> <1147185091.26347.15.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> <4460ABF4.1040703@math.unl.edu> Message-ID: <20060509145355.GA2418@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> On Tue, May 09, 2006 at 09:49:24AM -0500, Rex Dieter wrote: > Jeremy Katz wrote: > > > >How do you define "same package quality" if it's an alternate > >implementation? > > It follows the same packaging standards, review process, etc... > > >And starting to get bug reports from J. Foo's Fedora > >that has a drastically different kernel or glibc or ... is going to make > >things very very difficult for developers. > > Not for you, for whoever is maintaining the Alternatives pkg. And how to you prevent users from filing bugs in Fedora bugzilla for Alternatives packages? Unless a totally different bugzilla is used, I can see a bugzilla nightmare. Even with that, you're going to get lots of reports from people that are using a non-Core kernel in bugzilla and it will be a burden. josh From notting at redhat.com Tue May 9 14:57:51 2006 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 10:57:51 -0400 Subject: [fab] Project Hosting In-Reply-To: <20060508204102.GA28401@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> References: <1147037439.2626.12.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <1147038104.4310.59.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1147040982.2626.25.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <20060508204102.GA28401@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: <20060509145751.GA4674@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Josh Boyer (jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org) said: > I've been told that savannah and sf are also PHP based. So now we're down > to roll-your-own if PHP is out. My sysadmin guy also said that savannah is > a "crusty-ass" version of SF, which doesn't give me warm fuzzies anyway. > > He did mention Trac. It's a free software SCM and Project Management tool > that seems to be based on python. http://www.edgewall.com/trac > > Maybe that is worth looking into. That's fairly tied to SVN, although they're looking at fixing that in later versions (no schedule yet.) http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/tools-discuss/2006-April/000366.html might be interesting reading as well. Bill From rdieter at math.unl.edu Tue May 9 14:57:50 2006 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 09:57:50 -0500 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <1147186382.26347.36.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> <1147147870.2126.22.camel@ender> <1147185091.26347.15.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> <4460ABF4.1040703@math.unl.edu> <1147186382.26347.36.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <4460ADEE.7010507@math.unl.edu> Jeremy Katz wrote: > On Tue, 2006-05-09 at 09:49 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote: >> Jeremy Katz wrote: >>> How do you define "same package quality" if it's an alternate >>> implementation? >> It follows the same packaging standards, review process, etc... > > But it hasn't followed the same review process as the patches that make > it an alternative haven't been through the review process of the > upstream community. True. >>> And starting to get bug reports from J. Foo's Fedora >>> that has a drastically different kernel or glibc or ... is going to make >>> things very very difficult for developers. >> Not for you, for whoever is maintaining the Alternatives pkg. > > And when the alternative package has a subtle interaction with other > packages breaking them? Yeah, not fun. This (hopefully) would be a rare exception (*fingers crossed*) -- Rex From rdieter at math.unl.edu Tue May 9 15:00:14 2006 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 10:00:14 -0500 Subject: [fab] Re: Alternatives In-Reply-To: <1147186279.26347.33.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> <1147185093.26347.16.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> <4460AB9B.9080704@math.unl.edu> <1147186279.26347.33.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <4460AE7E.2010802@math.unl.edu> Jeremy Katz wrote: > On Tue, 2006-05-09 at 09:47 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote: >> Jeremy Katz wrote: >>> I'm still not convinced it's a good idea... it does little to encourage >>> actually getting things merged. And lots of forks ==> more work. >> Yeah, but it's not *your* work, it's someone else who *wants* to do it. >> I think we should foster an empowering environment, and not take a >> stance of "you can't do that!". > > Except that bugs inevitably get misfiled or misattributed and so it is a > significant chunk of work. Yes, bug attribution issues need to be addressed as part of the process. >>> While that can work, I think this puts users in the worst place as a >>> non-mainline kernel will inevitably lag in terms of security fixes, etc. >>> And any kernel modules that are built in Extras won't be able to be used >>> for that kernel. >> Well, that should be their (the users') call to make, understanding the >> risks/rewards for using bits from Alternatives (of CCRMA). > > Explaining that clearly is not going to be easy, if it's even > possible. Nobody said anything about easy... (: -- Rex From gdk at redhat.com Tue May 9 14:58:43 2006 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 10:58:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <4460ABF4.1040703@math.unl.edu> References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> <1147147870.2126.22.camel@ender> <1147185091.26347.15.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> <4460ABF4.1040703@math.unl.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 May 2006, Rex Dieter wrote: > > And starting to get bug reports from J. Foo's Fedora > > that has a drastically different kernel or glibc or ... is going to make > > things very very difficult for developers. > > Not for you, for whoever is maintaining the Alternatives pkg. I think Jeremy's fear about misattribution of bugs is a valid one. I have a dream, though. I have a dream of a desktop bugzilla client in Fedora. When you find a bug, you fire up the prominently-placed client. The client presents you with package names, and you select which package the bug was in. The client will be smart enough to reconcile any questions about "which repo this package came from". Is this a crazy dream? Maybe. Maybe not. But it'd certainly require a visionary QA person to make it happen. Right, Will? :) --g ------------------------------------------------------------- Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Project || fedoraproject.org Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors ------------------------------------------------------------- From matt at domsch.com Tue May 9 15:02:58 2006 From: matt at domsch.com (Matt Domsch) Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 10:02:58 -0500 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <4460AB9B.9080704@math.unl.edu> References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> <1147185093.26347.16.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> <4460AB9B.9080704@math.unl.edu> Message-ID: <20060509150258.GA22509@domsch.com> On Tue, May 09, 2006 at 09:47:55AM -0500, Rex Dieter wrote: > Well, that should be their (the users') call to make, understanding the > risks/rewards for using bits from Alternatives (of CCRMA). I'm not arguing one way or another here yet, but here's an example of the "nightmare" I encountered. MythTV is cool. ATrpms packages MythTV for Fedora. Sweet, and it works fine for me. Then I want to upgrade from FC4 to FC5. Dozens of Core packages have been replaced by versions from ATrpms now. Even though ATrpms repos now have FC5 stuff in them, the upgrade was, shall we say, painful? I wound up uninstalling as many of the ATrpms packages as I could (several forcably re-installing an older FC4 version), in order to get the upgrade to work. It took *me* 4+ hours (and I think I understand this better than the average user). For anyone else, it should have been a "backup my mythtv database and re-install from scratch" scenario. Before we go advocating for Alternatives that replace packages from Core/Extras, I want to really understand the reasoning behind *why* anything believes the Alternatives packages must exist in the first place (i.e. what's wrong with the versions already in Core/Extras that can't be worked around in another fashion besides wholesale replacement). Otherwise, we're just encouraging end-user frustration. -Matt From rdieter at math.unl.edu Tue May 9 15:08:01 2006 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 10:08:01 -0500 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <20060509150258.GA22509@domsch.com> References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> <1147185093.26347.16.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> <4460AB9B.9080704@math.unl.edu> <20060509150258.GA22509@domsch.com> Message-ID: <4460B051.6040707@math.unl.edu> Matt Domsch wrote: > On Tue, May 09, 2006 at 09:47:55AM -0500, Rex Dieter wrote: >> Well, that should be their (the users') call to make, understanding the >> risks/rewards for using bits from Alternatives (of CCRMA). > > I'm not arguing one way or another here yet, but here's an example of > the "nightmare" I encountered. Part of that risks/rewards thing. (: > Before we go advocating for Alternatives that replace packages from > Core/Extras, I want to really understand the reasoning behind *why* > anything believes the Alternatives packages must exist in the first > place (i.e. what's wrong with the versions already in Core/Extras that > can't be worked around in another fashion besides wholesale > replacement). Otherwise, we're just encouraging end-user frustration. I thought Greg had already made a pretty convincing argument for alternative kernels. No other speculation has been made (yet). -- Rex From katzj at redhat.com Tue May 9 15:17:32 2006 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 11:17:32 -0400 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> <1147147870.2126.22.camel@ender> <1147185091.26347.15.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> <4460ABF4.1040703@math.unl.edu> Message-ID: <1147187852.19353.1.camel@aglarond.local> On Tue, 2006-05-09 at 10:58 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > I have a dream of a desktop bugzilla client in Fedora. When you find a > bug, you fire up the prominently-placed client. The client presents you > with package names, and you select which package the bug was in. The > client will be smart enough to reconcile any questions about "which repo > this package came from". But the fact that a bug is in a package doesn't mean it's not due to some other component that's changed. Especially when we're talking about the _kernel_ as the first thing. Jeremy From Christian.Iseli at licr.org Tue May 9 15:22:38 2006 From: Christian.Iseli at licr.org (Christian.Iseli at licr.org) Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 17:22:38 +0200 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 09 May 2006 10:58:43 EDT." Message-ID: <200605091522.k49FMcHC029526@ludwig-alpha.unil.ch> gdk at redhat.com said: > Is this a crazy dream? Maybe. Maybe not. But it'd certainly require a > visionary QA person to make it happen. Right, Will? Kinda reminds me of an old script named glibc-bug, or something... Seems to have disappeared from FC, but maybe some ideas could be borrowed: - grab exact running kernel version and loaded modules - grab glibs version - maybe snapshot of runnign processes - etc. - all of the above neatly packaged in a shiny desktop app... :) Christian From gdk at redhat.com Tue May 9 15:25:20 2006 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 11:25:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <1147187852.19353.1.camel@aglarond.local> References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> <1147147870.2126.22.camel@ender> <1147185091.26347.15.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> <4460ABF4.1040703@math.unl.edu> <1147187852.19353.1.camel@aglarond.local> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 May 2006, Jeremy Katz wrote: > On Tue, 2006-05-09 at 10:58 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > I have a dream of a desktop bugzilla client in Fedora. When you find a > > bug, you fire up the prominently-placed client. The client presents you > > with package names, and you select which package the bug was in. The > > client will be smart enough to reconcile any questions about "which repo > > this package came from". > > But the fact that a bug is in a package doesn't mean it's not due to > some other component that's changed. Especially when we're talking > about the _kernel_ as the first thing. > > Jeremy What this points out to me is the miserable way that Bugzilla works as a whole. Basically, we ask end users to provide data that a lot of them don't have the knowledge to find. This is a place where a desktop tool that provides data about the system, plus knowledgeable bug triagers, could add a *ton* of value. --g ------------------------------------------------------------- Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Project || fedoraproject.org Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors ------------------------------------------------------------- From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue May 9 15:27:53 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 20:57:53 +0530 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <200605091522.k49FMcHC029526@ludwig-alpha.unil.ch> References: <200605091522.k49FMcHC029526@ludwig-alpha.unil.ch> Message-ID: <1147188473.4310.165.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> On Tue, 2006-05-09 at 17:22 +0200, Christian.Iseli at licr.org wrote: > gdk at redhat.com said: > > Is this a crazy dream? Maybe. Maybe not. But it'd certainly require a > > visionary QA person to make it happen. Right, Will? > > Kinda reminds me of an old script named glibc-bug, or something... Seems to > have disappeared from FC, but maybe some ideas could be borrowed: > - grab exact running kernel version and loaded modules > - grab glibs version > - maybe snapshot of runnign processes > - etc. > - all of the above neatly packaged in a shiny desktop app... :) As I have said before, a wrapper around sysreport would let you do this. Someone would have to look at whether bug buddy does enough. Rahul From jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org Tue May 9 15:43:41 2006 From: jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org (Josh Boyer) Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 10:43:41 -0500 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: References: <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> <1147147870.2126.22.camel@ender> <1147185091.26347.15.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> <4460ABF4.1040703@math.unl.edu> <1147187852.19353.1.camel@aglarond.local> Message-ID: <20060509154341.GB2418@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> On Tue, May 09, 2006 at 11:25:20AM -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > What this points out to me is the miserable way that Bugzilla works as a > whole. Basically, we ask end users to provide data that a lot of them > don't have the knowledge to find. > > This is a place where a desktop tool that provides data about > the system, plus knowledgeable bug triagers, could add a *ton* of > value. Sounds a lot like the "Would you like to send this error report to ..." dialog that pops up after a BSOD. ;) josh From wwoods at redhat.com Tue May 9 16:09:03 2006 From: wwoods at redhat.com (Will Woods) Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 12:09:03 -0400 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> <1147147870.2126.22.camel@ender> <1147185091.26347.15.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> <4460ABF4.1040703@math.unl.edu> Message-ID: <1147190943.2673.41.camel@metroid.rdu.redhat.com> On Tue, 2006-05-09 at 10:58 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > I think Jeremy's fear about misattribution of bugs is a valid one. > > I have a dream, though. > > I have a dream of a desktop bugzilla client in Fedora. When you find a > bug, you fire up the prominently-placed client. The client presents you > with package names, and you select which package the bug was in. The > client will be smart enough to reconcile any questions about "which repo > this package came from". > > Is this a crazy dream? Maybe. Maybe not. But it'd certainly require a > visionary QA person to make it happen. Right, Will? Yes! I have this same dream! I really REALLY want to see tighter integration between Fedora and our bug reporting/tracking stuff. I want: 1) A nice client (maybe built from bug-buddy) for people to quickly and easily report bugs *without a bugzilla account*. This client would gather pertinent system info (Fedora or Alternatives package? Weirdo kernel?) and include it in the bug report. 2) Attached to bugzilla: a central, scoreboard-style web page with up-to-the-minute info on hot issues, bug tracking, release notes, etc. Basically, a site that will help answer the question: "WTF just happened?". And I want links to this in our Firefox package, on the desktop, etc. Even better, I want these two things to be tied together: I want the bug client to pull info about current hot issues, the most frequently-reported bugs, etc. and present a list to the user. It will ask: "Are any of these your bug?" If the user finds their bug in that list, they click yes. We increment a 'vote' counter for that bug. Goodbye duplicate bug reports! Hello semi-automatic bug triage! Does this sound useful? Are Greg and I just crazy? Can we make this stuff happen? -w From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue May 9 16:14:18 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 21:44:18 +0530 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <1147190943.2673.41.camel@metroid.rdu.redhat.com> References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> <1147147870.2126.22.camel@ender> <1147185091.26347.15.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> <4460ABF4.1040703@math.unl.edu> <1147190943.2673.41.camel@metroid.rdu.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1147191258.4310.171.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> On Tue, 2006-05-09 at 12:09 -0400, Will Woods wrote: > On Tue, 2006-05-09 at 10:58 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > > I think Jeremy's fear about misattribution of bugs is a valid one. > > > > I have a dream, though. > > > > I have a dream of a desktop bugzilla client in Fedora. When you find a > > bug, you fire up the prominently-placed client. The client presents you > > with package names, and you select which package the bug was in. The > > client will be smart enough to reconcile any questions about "which repo > > this package came from". > > > > Is this a crazy dream? Maybe. Maybe not. But it'd certainly require a > > visionary QA person to make it happen. Right, Will? > > Yes! I have this same dream! I really REALLY want to see tighter > integration between Fedora and our bug reporting/tracking stuff. I want: > > 1) A nice client (maybe built from bug-buddy) for people to quickly and > easily report bugs *without a bugzilla account*. This client would > gather pertinent system info (Fedora or Alternatives package? Weirdo > kernel?) and include it in the bug report. > > 2) Attached to bugzilla: a central, scoreboard-style web page with > up-to-the-minute info on hot issues, bug tracking, release notes, etc. > Basically, a site that will help answer the question: "WTF just > happened?". And I want links to this in our Firefox package, on the > desktop, etc. > > Even better, I want these two things to be tied together: > > I want the bug client to pull info about current hot issues, the most > frequently-reported bugs, etc. and present a list to the user. It will > ask: "Are any of these your bug?" If the user finds their bug in that > list, they click yes. We increment a 'vote' counter for that bug. > > Goodbye duplicate bug reports! Hello semi-automatic bug triage! > > Does this sound useful? Are Greg and I just crazy? Can we make this > stuff happen? We just need to take a look at bug buddy and see what changes are required to enable it to work with Red Hat bugzilla since it does all of this already. Along the way it would nice to implement all those changes that GNOME bugzilla people have made. Rahul From rdieter at math.unl.edu Tue May 9 16:23:17 2006 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 11:23:17 -0500 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <1147190943.2673.41.camel@metroid.rdu.redhat.com> References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> <1147147870.2126.22.camel@ender> <1147185091.26347.15.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> <4460ABF4.1040703@math.unl.edu> <1147190943.2673.41.camel@metroid.rdu.redhat.com> Message-ID: <4460C1F5.2010903@math.unl.edu> Will Woods wrote: > On Tue, 2006-05-09 at 10:58 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: >> I have a dream of a desktop bugzilla client in Fedora. When you find a >> bug, you fire up the prominently-placed client. The client presents you >> with package names, and you select which package the bug was in. The >> client will be smart enough to reconcile any questions about "which repo >> this package came from". > Yes! I have this same dream! I really REALLY want to see tighter > integration between Fedora and our bug reporting/tracking stuff. I want: > > 1) A nice client (maybe built from bug-buddy) for people to quickly and > easily report bugs *without a bugzilla account*. I personally have a problem with that (maybe it's just the cranky sysadmin in me): * If a bug isn't worth a few minutes of your time to create a bugzilla account, the bug must not be that important. This (IMO, small) barrier weeds out frivolous reports. Easier bug reporting is nice, but not at the expense of receiving *good* bug reports. * Without a bugzilla account, there is no mechanism for further correspondence/feedback between reporter and developers. I think this is important too. -- Rex From jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org Tue May 9 16:45:32 2006 From: jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org (Josh Boyer) Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 11:45:32 -0500 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <4460C1F5.2010903@math.unl.edu> References: <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> <1147147870.2126.22.camel@ender> <1147185091.26347.15.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> <4460ABF4.1040703@math.unl.edu> <1147190943.2673.41.camel@metroid.rdu.redhat.com> <4460C1F5.2010903@math.unl.edu> Message-ID: <20060509164532.GD2418@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> On Tue, May 09, 2006 at 11:23:17AM -0500, Rex Dieter wrote: > Will Woods wrote: > >On Tue, 2006-05-09 at 10:58 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > >>I have a dream of a desktop bugzilla client in Fedora. When you find a > >>bug, you fire up the prominently-placed client. The client presents you > >>with package names, and you select which package the bug was in. The > >>client will be smart enough to reconcile any questions about "which repo > >>this package came from". > > > >Yes! I have this same dream! I really REALLY want to see tighter > >integration between Fedora and our bug reporting/tracking stuff. I want: > > > >1) A nice client (maybe built from bug-buddy) for people to quickly and > >easily report bugs *without a bugzilla account*. > > I personally have a problem with that (maybe it's just the cranky > sysadmin in me): > * If a bug isn't worth a few minutes of your time to create a bugzilla > account, the bug must not be that important. This (IMO, small) barrier > weeds out frivolous reports. Easier bug reporting is nice, but not at > the expense of receiving *good* bug reports. > * Without a bugzilla account, there is no mechanism for further > correspondence/feedback between reporter and developers. I think this > is important too. I agree. I've never seen a bug get fixed soley on the initial report, so communication between the developer and reporter is required. josh From gdk at redhat.com Tue May 9 16:47:19 2006 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 12:47:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <4460C1F5.2010903@math.unl.edu> References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> <1147147870.2126.22.camel@ender> <1147185091.26347.15.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> <4460ABF4.1040703@math.unl.edu> <1147190943.2673.41.camel@metroid.rdu.redhat.com> <4460C1F5.2010903@math.unl.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 May 2006, Rex Dieter wrote: > * If a bug isn't worth a few minutes of your time to create a bugzilla > account, the bug must not be that important. This (IMO, small) barrier > weeds out frivolous reports. Easier bug reporting is nice, but not at > the expense of receiving *good* bug reports. I wonder if we might consider separating bugs into classes. Anonymous bugs get lower priority, but they're great data points, especially if they contain largely similar information. If you get 5000 bug reports on the same component, you know it's bad, but you don't necessary need to troll through all 5000. Maybe that's too complicated. I don't know. > * Without a bugzilla account, there is no mechanism for further > correspondence/feedback between reporter and developers. I think this > is important too. To some users -- but certainly not the ones who see a crash and just click on the "report this bug automatically" button. --g ------------------------------------------------------------- Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Project || fedoraproject.org Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors ------------------------------------------------------------- From jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org Tue May 9 17:02:18 2006 From: jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org (Josh Boyer) Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 12:02:18 -0500 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <1147190943.2673.41.camel@metroid.rdu.redhat.com> References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> <1147147870.2126.22.camel@ender> <1147185091.26347.15.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> <4460ABF4.1040703@math.unl.edu> <1147190943.2673.41.camel@metroid.rdu.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20060509170217.GE2418@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> On Tue, May 09, 2006 at 12:09:03PM -0400, Will Woods wrote: > On Tue, 2006-05-09 at 10:58 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > > I think Jeremy's fear about misattribution of bugs is a valid one. > > > > I have a dream, though. > > > > I have a dream of a desktop bugzilla client in Fedora. When you find a > > bug, you fire up the prominently-placed client. The client presents you > > with package names, and you select which package the bug was in. The > > client will be smart enough to reconcile any questions about "which repo > > this package came from". > > > > Is this a crazy dream? Maybe. Maybe not. But it'd certainly require a > > visionary QA person to make it happen. Right, Will? > > Yes! I have this same dream! I really REALLY want to see tighter > integration between Fedora and our bug reporting/tracking stuff. I want: > > 1) A nice client (maybe built from bug-buddy) for people to quickly and > easily report bugs *without a bugzilla account*. This client would > gather pertinent system info (Fedora or Alternatives package? Weirdo > kernel?) and include it in the bug report. Could it do things like refuse to report bugs from machines that have tainted kernels? Or is that being too harsh in some peoples opinions? josh From katzj at redhat.com Tue May 9 17:11:29 2006 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 13:11:29 -0400 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <1147190943.2673.41.camel@metroid.rdu.redhat.com> References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> <1147147870.2126.22.camel@ender> <1147185091.26347.15.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> <4460ABF4.1040703@math.unl.edu> <1147190943.2673.41.camel@metroid.rdu.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1147194689.26347.45.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> On Tue, 2006-05-09 at 12:09 -0400, Will Woods wrote: > 1) A nice client (maybe built from bug-buddy) for people to quickly and > easily report bugs *without a bugzilla account*. This client would > gather pertinent system info (Fedora or Alternatives package? Weirdo > kernel?) and include it in the bug report. While useful for things reported more than once, we're guaranteed to get the "reported once, no clue how to reproduce it" problems with some regularity. The requirement of a bugzilla account is the only thing that gives developers a chance[1] of getting the information they need to solve problems. Jeremy [1] And even then, some percentage of reporters just fires and forgets From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue May 9 17:23:21 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 22:53:21 +0530 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <20060509170217.GE2418@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> <1147147870.2126.22.camel@ender> <1147185091.26347.15.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> <4460ABF4.1040703@math.unl.edu> <1147190943.2673.41.camel@metroid.rdu.redhat.com> <20060509170217.GE2418@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: <1147195401.4310.173.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> On Tue, 2006-05-09 at 12:02 -0500, Josh Boyer wrote: > On Tue, May 09, 2006 at 12:09:03PM -0400, Will Woods wrote: > > On Tue, 2006-05-09 at 10:58 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > > > > I think Jeremy's fear about misattribution of bugs is a valid one. > > > > > > I have a dream, though. > > > > > > I have a dream of a desktop bugzilla client in Fedora. When you find a > > > bug, you fire up the prominently-placed client. The client presents you > > > with package names, and you select which package the bug was in. The > > > client will be smart enough to reconcile any questions about "which repo > > > this package came from". > > > > > > Is this a crazy dream? Maybe. Maybe not. But it'd certainly require a > > > visionary QA person to make it happen. Right, Will? > > > > Yes! I have this same dream! I really REALLY want to see tighter > > integration between Fedora and our bug reporting/tracking stuff. I want: > > > > 1) A nice client (maybe built from bug-buddy) for people to quickly and > > easily report bugs *without a bugzilla account*. This client would > > gather pertinent system info (Fedora or Alternatives package? Weirdo > > kernel?) and include it in the bug report. > > Could it do things like refuse to report bugs from machines that have > tainted kernels? Or is that being too harsh in some peoples opinions? Too harsh. The problem might be completely unrelated to the modules. Rahul From rdieter at math.unl.edu Tue May 9 17:54:51 2006 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 12:54:51 -0500 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> <1147147870.2126.22.camel@ender> <1147185091.26347.15.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> <4460ABF4.1040703@math.unl.edu> <1147190943.2673.41.camel@metroid.rdu.redhat.com> <4460C1F5.2010903@math.unl.edu> Message-ID: <4460D76B.5000607@math.unl.edu> Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > On Tue, 9 May 2006, Rex Dieter wrote: > >> * If a bug isn't worth a few minutes of your time to create a bugzilla >> account, the bug must not be that important. This (IMO, small) barrier >> weeds out frivolous reports. Easier bug reporting is nice, but not at >> the expense of receiving *good* bug reports. > > I wonder if we might consider separating bugs into classes. Anonymous > bugs get lower priority, but they're great data points, especially if they > contain largely similar information. If you get 5000 bug reports on the > same component, you know it's bad, but you don't necessary need to troll > through all 5000. Good point, such anonymous bug report data may be useful after all. If done this way, we'd have to be careful to make sure users don't end up thinking the anonymous reports are good enough and stop using bugzilla altogether. -- Rex From jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org Tue May 9 18:14:42 2006 From: jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org (Josh Boyer) Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 13:14:42 -0500 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <1147195401.4310.173.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> References: <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> <1147147870.2126.22.camel@ender> <1147185091.26347.15.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> <4460ABF4.1040703@math.unl.edu> <1147190943.2673.41.camel@metroid.rdu.redhat.com> <20060509170217.GE2418@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> <1147195401.4310.173.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20060509181442.GF2418@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> On Tue, May 09, 2006 at 10:53:21PM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > On Tue, 2006-05-09 at 12:02 -0500, Josh Boyer wrote: > > > > > > 1) A nice client (maybe built from bug-buddy) for people to quickly and > > > easily report bugs *without a bugzilla account*. This client would > > > gather pertinent system info (Fedora or Alternatives package? Weirdo > > > kernel?) and include it in the bug report. > > > > Could it do things like refuse to report bugs from machines that have > > tainted kernels? Or is that being too harsh in some peoples opinions? > > Too harsh. The problem might be completely unrelated to the modules. Or it might be. That's the point. With binary modules, you can never really tell. But yes, it might be too harsh for the daily Fedora user. At the very least, the lsmod output and taint status should be included by the tool in such bug reports. Gives the developers at least a hint as to what their up against. /me goes off to dream of other ways to eliminate binary modules josh From Christian.Iseli at licr.org Tue May 9 18:24:42 2006 From: Christian.Iseli at licr.org (Christian.Iseli at licr.org) Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 20:24:42 +0200 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 09 May 2006 13:11:29 EDT." <1147194689.26347.45.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <200605091824.k49IOhEs013529@mx1.redhat.com> katzj at redhat.com said: > The requirement of a bugzilla account is the only thing that gives developers > a chance[1] of getting the information they need to solve problems. IMHO, the tool should offer a choice: - anonymous report, making it clear the developer will have no chance to ask further info and/or discuss the issue, which drasticaly lowers the chances the bug will get fixed - use BZ account, offering to open one if needed But maybe this gets too complicated ? Christian From stickster at gmail.com Wed May 10 00:11:41 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 20:11:41 -0400 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <4460C1F5.2010903@math.unl.edu> References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> <1147147870.2126.22.camel@ender> <1147185091.26347.15.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> <4460ABF4.1040703@math.unl.edu> <1147190943.2673.41.camel@metroid.rdu.redhat.com> <4460C1F5.2010903@math.unl.edu> Message-ID: <1147219901.2572.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2006-05-09 at 11:23 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote: > Will Woods wrote: > > On Tue, 2006-05-09 at 10:58 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > >> I have a dream of a desktop bugzilla client in Fedora. When you find a > >> bug, you fire up the prominently-placed client. The client presents you > >> with package names, and you select which package the bug was in. The > >> client will be smart enough to reconcile any questions about "which repo > >> this package came from". > > > > Yes! I have this same dream! I really REALLY want to see tighter > > integration between Fedora and our bug reporting/tracking stuff. I want: > > > > 1) A nice client (maybe built from bug-buddy) for people to quickly and > > easily report bugs *without a bugzilla account*. > > I personally have a problem with that (maybe it's just the cranky > sysadmin in me): > * If a bug isn't worth a few minutes of your time to create a bugzilla > account, the bug must not be that important. This (IMO, small) barrier > weeds out frivolous reports. Easier bug reporting is nice, but not at > the expense of receiving *good* bug reports. > * Without a bugzilla account, there is no mechanism for further > correspondence/feedback between reporter and developers. I think this > is important too. I'd like to respond with a message that I received just recently: = = = = = I noticed that the downloadable compressed archive of the Fedora Core 5 Installation Guide, as accessed through http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/fedora-install-guide-en/ is the DRAFT version. Please forward this info to the responsible person. There should be an easier way to report this type of web content error. The bugzilla system may be convenient for you, but it's way to much bother for a customer. = = = = = I would say this bug report is better than many of the bugs I've received from people who went to the trouble of getting accounts. I think shutting out potential contributors is not the way to advance the project. I agree that we will continue to get bugs that are not useful -- from anonymous *and* non-anonymous users. I would bet most people who take the time to file a bug *at all* would typically follow up on it at some point, especially if it's vexing to them. When I asked for more details on his BZ problems, for example, this user wrote me back a very nice email with plenty of additional detail. If people believe they are getting attention, they typically respond well. Attention is quite a primal need. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed May 10 00:18:51 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 20:18:51 -0400 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <200605091824.k49IOhEs013529@mx1.redhat.com> References: <200605091824.k49IOhEs013529@mx1.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1147220331.2572.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2006-05-09 at 20:24 +0200, Christian.Iseli at licr.org wrote: > katzj at redhat.com said: > > The requirement of a bugzilla account is the only thing that gives developers > > a chance[1] of getting the information they need to solve problems. > > IMHO, the tool should offer a choice: > - anonymous report, making it clear the developer will have no chance to ask > further info and/or discuss the issue, which drasticaly lowers the chances > the bug will get fixed > - use BZ account, offering to open one if needed > > But maybe this gets too complicated ? Why not? Would it make sense for it to consult the same data sources as the gnome-about-me tool, to make the process faster for the user? -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mspevack at redhat.com Wed May 10 02:47:42 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 22:47:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <1147190943.2673.41.camel@metroid.rdu.redhat.com> References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> <1147147870.2126.22.camel@ender> <1147185091.26347.15.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> <4460ABF4.1040703@math.unl.edu> <1147190943.2673.41.camel@metroid.rdu.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 May 2006, Will Woods wrote: > On Tue, 2006-05-09 at 10:58 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > >> I think Jeremy's fear about misattribution of bugs is a valid one. >> >> I have a dream, though. >> >> I have a dream of a desktop bugzilla client in Fedora. When you find a >> bug, you fire up the prominently-placed client. The client presents you >> with package names, and you select which package the bug was in. The >> client will be smart enough to reconcile any questions about "which repo >> this package came from". >> >> Is this a crazy dream? Maybe. Maybe not. But it'd certainly require a >> visionary QA person to make it happen. Right, Will? > > Yes! I have this same dream! I really REALLY want to see tighter > integration between Fedora and our bug reporting/tracking stuff. I want: > > 1) A nice client (maybe built from bug-buddy) for people to quickly and > easily report bugs *without a bugzilla account*. This client would > gather pertinent system info (Fedora or Alternatives package? Weirdo > kernel?) and include it in the bug report. > > 2) Attached to bugzilla: a central, scoreboard-style web page with > up-to-the-minute info on hot issues, bug tracking, release notes, etc. > Basically, a site that will help answer the question: "WTF just > happened?". And I want links to this in our Firefox package, on the > desktop, etc. > > Even better, I want these two things to be tied together: > > I want the bug client to pull info about current hot issues, the most > frequently-reported bugs, etc. and present a list to the user. It will > ask: "Are any of these your bug?" If the user finds their bug in that > list, they click yes. We increment a 'vote' counter for that bug. > > Goodbye duplicate bug reports! Hello semi-automatic bug triage! > > Does this sound useful? Are Greg and I just crazy? Can we make this > stuff happen? I'm late to this thread and the kernel thread too, and I echo a lot of what everyone else said in both of those. In terms of making this QA stuff happen -- we definitely can, Will. Up to you and I to figure out this and your other goals/priorities once you're full time on Fedora. It occurs to me that if nothing else, it might be worth adding this idea to the Summer of Code possibilities, and seeing if we generate any interest. It would be a pretty fun project to code on -- touches on GUI, web programming, and requires someone with the ability to think about the problem at a high level before diving into the actual coding. --Max -- Max Spevack + http://people.redhat.com/mspevack/ + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From katzj at redhat.com Wed May 10 03:02:28 2006 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 23:02:28 -0400 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> <1147147870.2126.22.camel@ender> <1147185091.26347.15.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> <4460ABF4.1040703@math.unl.edu> <1147190943.2673.41.camel@metroid.rdu.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1147230148.2840.6.camel@aglarond.local> On Tue, 2006-05-09 at 22:47 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: > It occurs to me that if nothing else, it might be worth adding this idea > to the Summer of Code possibilities, and seeing if we generate any > interest. Deadline for students to submit applications for SoC was yesterday. Jeremy From mspevack at redhat.com Wed May 10 04:46:18 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 00:46:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <1147230148.2840.6.camel@aglarond.local> References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> <1147147870.2126.22.camel@ender> <1147185091.26347.15.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> <4460ABF4.1040703@math.unl.edu> <1147190943.2673.41.camel@metroid.rdu.redhat.com> <1147230148.2840.6.camel@aglarond.local> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 May 2006, Jeremy Katz wrote: > On Tue, 2006-05-09 at 22:47 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: >> It occurs to me that if nothing else, it might be worth adding this idea >> to the Summer of Code possibilities, and seeing if we generate any >> interest. > > Deadline for students to submit applications for SoC was yesterday. s/Summer of Code/Fedora Bounties/ :-) --Max From jtane at web.de Wed May 10 07:26:39 2006 From: jtane at web.de (Julien Tane) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 09:26:39 +0200 Subject: [fab] Nice To Have - Acronyms for Board Meeting Minutes Message-ID: <446195AF.7000602@web.de> Hello, There is no need to take the time to answer to this mail. I am just informing you that it would probably ease the reading of the minutes if acronyms were listed or at least accessibles on the page. For example, what is: FESCO ? What is the difference between RH and RHAT? This is just an idea to make the minutes more easily readable. But I am not sure what is the best way for this. Thanks for the great work, guys. (Maybe I can be useful later on, but for now I am busy with my thesis. :-( ). As I said no need to answer. It might not take you too long to do (perhaps a permanent link at the top of the minutes (or on the right) or something). J From mspevack at redhat.com Wed May 10 14:17:12 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 10:17:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Nice To Have - Acronyms for Board Meeting Minutes In-Reply-To: <446195AF.7000602@web.de> References: <446195AF.7000602@web.de> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 May 2006, Julien Tane wrote: > Hello, > > There is no need to take the time to answer to this mail. I am just > informing you that it would probably ease the reading of the minutes if > acronyms were listed or at least accessibles on the page. I'll be more careful about that as I post future minutes, and I'll go back and clean up the old ones. > For example, what is: FESCO ? Fedora Extras Steering Committee > What is the difference between RH and RHAT? Nothing, just me being too lazy to hit the extra keys. :-) > This is just an idea to make the minutes more easily readable. But I am > not sure what is the best way for this. Thanks for the great work, > guys. (Maybe I can be useful later on, but for now I am busy with my > thesis. :-( ). > > As I said no need to answer. It might not take you too long to do > (perhaps a permanent link at the top of the minutes (or on the right) or > something). Thanks for the suggestion. --Max -- Max Spevack + http://people.redhat.com/mspevack/ + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From kwade at redhat.com Wed May 10 14:23:03 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 07:23:03 -0700 Subject: [fab] Project Hosting In-Reply-To: <20060508153528.GC26594@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> References: <1147037439.2626.12.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <1147038104.4310.59.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <1147040982.2626.25.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <1147099479.1951.2.camel@cutter> <1147099903.8821.13.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <20060508153528.GC26594@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: <1147270983.31284.102.camel@erato.phig.org> On Mon, 2006-05-08 at 10:35 -0500, Josh Boyer wrote: > Ok, that's a fair point. Bit of a bummer though, since I've found GForge > to be one of the most usable interfaces. Just a note for requirements. If our solution is a roll-your-own and it looks and acts like what we have today, we are missing a big opportunity. _Coding_ projects can get away with a stripped down system that is mailman/public_html/SCM-of-choice. All the other projects are losing the interest of people who have to learn so many new things to do their task in Ambassadors, Marketing, Design, Documentation, etc. Also, having a large administrative overheard of a small group of highly busy people as the gateway misses our ability to act as a distributed community. The Gforge-like tools let people administer membership in their own projects, etc., without having to mess with system wide settings. This is the reason I encourage us to look at a full-featured system and to think BIG with it. It is _not_ for the purpose of attracting contributors from those who already like what we have. It is for helping attract and keep contributors who want something with easier entrance and maintenance. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Editor * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Fedora Documentation Project http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject Learn. Network. Experience open source. Red Hat Summit Nashville | May 30 - June 2, 2006 Learn more: http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From blizzard at redhat.com Wed May 10 14:56:26 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 10:56:26 -0400 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4461FF1A.1040208@redhat.com> Tim Burke wrote: > Just to share some exposure into what it takes to keep a non-standard > kernel working in the Fedora tree: > - Pretty much a full-time dedicated highly experienced kernel developer > to spend the vast majority of their time playing patch monkey to keep up > with the high rate of upstream change. We have someone doing this role > for Xen and its more than a fulltime job. Same thing would have to > happen for an OLPC kernel. Certainly the amount of work is commensurate > with the nature of the changes. Having seen the RT patch set, that is > invasive and would also require similar effort. I've got Marcelo Tosatti and David Woodhouse to do this work for OLPC. I'm hoping that they will be able to do most of their work upstream and we pick up changes that way but I know that we're going to have local changes both for the same of experimentation and because maybe we need something that hasn't been taken. In either case, we're going to have to have a variant for OLPC. I'm sure that RHEL doesn't care about the things that we do and we don't care about 90% of the RHEL drivers. :) > - Above has to be done daily, virtually in realtime. The minute that > kernel build breaks (which will be frequently), it will be disabled in > the build makefiles. If it remains disabled for extended periods of > time then end users in the community get disgruntled. Good advice. > - DaveJ is currently teetering on the edge of sanity, and doesn't need > one more straw to break the camel's back. So how do we make his job easier? I know the gatekeeper job - I've done it in Mozilla-land and it sucks. It's a total burnout job. > - As was pointed out earlier, the path to the Fedora kernel leads from > upstream. It is but the idea that "one kernel is enough" doesn't fly when you're supporting more than one product, certainly from the RHAT side of the fence and even more so when we're trying to enable other people to use Fedora to experiment and do other interesting things. We need to get creative and find a way to scale instead of just saying "it's hard." > > In short, its generally hugely expensive in terms of ongoing manual > labor/torture to keep another kernel afloat. Not to mention that as > Matt points out, any layered kernel modules (ie the dirty decoder/codec > like stuff) won't work, or otherwise fragment the user base. > Yep, so let's think about how we can spread the load and try and get external people involved. --Chris From blizzard at redhat.com Wed May 10 15:04:52 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 11:04:52 -0400 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <1147147870.2126.22.camel@ender> References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> <1147147870.2126.22.camel@ender> Message-ID: <44620114.4070608@redhat.com> Jesse Keating wrote: > > Or do we fire up thoughts on Alternatives again? Somewhere that we can > host replacement packages that folks can use to assemble 'Fedora' > variants but not be tied to the kernel or whatever. If we use the same > rules, or come up with a good rule set for Alternatives, same package > quality, same build systems, etc... we should be able to call it Fedora. I'm not a huge fan of alternatives to solve problems like this because I think it solves the problem at the wrong level. Things like music servers or OLPC really have to happen at the final integration point. At that point you pull in: 1. the packages you want 2. the install process you want 3. the kernel you want and then you provide an image/repo for people to use with the customizations that are required. This sounds like the right place to make these changes, not down at an alternative/package level. Another way to put it is that alternatives sounds like a way to make a choice _inside_ of Fedora and as near as I can tell we're talking about variants of Fedora as a whole. --Chris From blizzard at redhat.com Wed May 10 15:08:35 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 11:08:35 -0400 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <1147150607.5943.32.camel@cutter> References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> <1147147870.2126.22.camel@ender> <1147150607.5943.32.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <446201F3.4000705@redhat.com> Yeah, here's another example of the dichotomy: seth vidal wrote: > Some complexity in enabling Alternatives: > 1. we can't enable alternatives by default - the obsoletes it could > allow would eat packages for people who really just want to use core. > 2. create a sensible way of dealing with conflicts - something we don't > really need to deal with right now. Inside of Fedora > 3. dealing with alternative tree creation and QA. What if a user > creates a fedora 'distro' using an alternatives kernel? How does that > impact testing? How do we cope with the near endless number of > combination or configurations we might get? and creating full Fedora variants. What we really need to be focused on is a better comps system. Something that doesn't just know about packages but also knows about repos and replacing some packages with packages from other repositories. Our current systems are built around "one Fedora to rule them all" and that's just not going to work anymore. --Chris From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Wed May 10 15:26:42 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 11:26:42 -0400 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <446201F3.4000705@redhat.com> References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> <1147147870.2126.22.camel@ender> <1147150607.5943.32.camel@cutter> <446201F3.4000705@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1147274803.15425.5.camel@cutter> On Wed, 2006-05-10 at 11:08 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > Yeah, here's another example of the dichotomy: > > seth vidal wrote: > > Some complexity in enabling Alternatives: > > 1. we can't enable alternatives by default - the obsoletes it could > > allow would eat packages for people who really just want to use core. > > 2. create a sensible way of dealing with conflicts - something we don't > > really need to deal with right now. > > Inside of Fedora > > > 3. dealing with alternative tree creation and QA. What if a user > > creates a fedora 'distro' using an alternatives kernel? How does that > > impact testing? How do we cope with the near endless number of > > combination or configurations we might get? > > and creating full Fedora variants. > > What we really need to be focused on is a better comps system. > Something that doesn't just know about packages but also knows about > repos and replacing some packages with packages from other repositories. > Our current systems are built around "one Fedora to rule them all" and > that's just not going to work anymore. > Do we need to be focused on that? It seems like it's a pretty serious edge case but we need to make sure we have the core case working before trailing off after edge cases. -sv From blizzard at redhat.com Wed May 10 15:34:40 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 11:34:40 -0400 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> <1147147870.2126.22.camel@ender> <1147185091.26347.15.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> <4460ABF4.1040703@math.unl.edu> Message-ID: <44620810.9030706@redhat.com> Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: >>> And starting to get bug reports from J. Foo's Fedora >>> that has a drastically different kernel or glibc or ... is going to make >>> things very very difficult for developers. >> Not for you, for whoever is maintaining the Alternatives pkg. > > I think Jeremy's fear about misattribution of bugs is a valid one. > > I have a dream, though. > > I have a dream of a desktop bugzilla client in Fedora. When you find a > bug, you fire up the prominently-placed client. The client presents you > with package names, and you select which package the bug was in. The > client will be smart enough to reconcile any questions about "which repo > this package came from". > > Is this a crazy dream? Maybe. Maybe not. But it'd certainly require a > visionary QA person to make it happen. Right, Will? Yes! This is a great start. Here's some more thoughts on this. 1. The fact that a bug can only be in one component pretty much sucks. We're stuck with this data model that bugzilla presents, everyone gloms on top of it and we're stuck with some very bizarre interactions. 2. I assert that Bugzilla is a pretty bad tool for release management, because once again it only deals with a component at a time along with a large number of other things. As a side note the release meetings at Red Hat are pretty funny, walking through bug numbers, trying to figure out information. Everyone needs to be their own expert in particular package and has to bring it to the table instead of being able to maintain release-specific summaries somewhere. Internal/external or fedora/RHEL, it doesn't matter. They both have the same problems and bugzilla is part of the problem. 3. Collecting information about crashes should probably be a completely separate activity than bugs. Bugs are about identified problems, and crashes have a many-to-one relationship with bugs. Some experience from the Mozilla project is relevant here. We get a huge number of crash reports from users on all our major platforms. We treat those crash reports as data and have tools to mine stack traces, find top crashes, etc. Then we turn that data into a bug that needs to be fixed. It also allows us to target the highest-visibility problems in the product, or the one that affects the most people. Basically "something just crashed" and "this doesn't work like I expected" are very different problem reports, and should be handled differently. So that's my little rant about Bugzilla. As for reporting, I think that we can do a lot better than what we have now. Which is, uhh, nothing really. Bug-buddy kind of works, but not well. I think greg is on the right path, but we need some real thinking about who we're targeting. People like us? Our users? Unsophisticated people? Basically I think that before we dive in we want to do a really good job of defining the problem, otherwise everyone will have different ideas about what we're building to enable better crash and bug reporting. --Chris From blizzard at redhat.com Wed May 10 15:47:06 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 11:47:06 -0400 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <1147190943.2673.41.camel@metroid.rdu.redhat.com> References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> <1147147870.2126.22.camel@ender> <1147185091.26347.15.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> <4460ABF4.1040703@math.unl.edu> <1147190943.2673.41.camel@metroid.rdu.redhat.com> Message-ID: <44620AFA.4020509@redhat.com> Will Woods wrote: > Yes! I have this same dream! I really REALLY want to see tighter > integration between Fedora and our bug reporting/tracking stuff. I want: > > 1) A nice client (maybe built from bug-buddy) for people to quickly and > easily report bugs *without a bugzilla account*. This client would > gather pertinent system info (Fedora or Alternatives package? Weirdo > kernel?) and include it in the bug report. > > 2) Attached to bugzilla: a central, scoreboard-style web page with > up-to-the-minute info on hot issues, bug tracking, release notes, etc. > Basically, a site that will help answer the question: "WTF just > happened?". And I want links to this in our Firefox package, on the > desktop, etc. Yep. Think data collection and mining, not filing bugs. Instead of having our overloaded developers traiging crash and bug reports, have them fixing things. --Chris From gdk at redhat.com Wed May 10 15:52:57 2006 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 11:52:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <44620810.9030706@redhat.com> References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> <1147147870.2126.22.camel@ender> <1147185091.26347.15.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> <4460ABF4.1040703@math.unl.edu> <44620810.9030706@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 May 2006, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > Yes! This is a great start. Here's some more thoughts on this. > > 1. The fact that a bug can only be in one component pretty much sucks. > We're stuck with this data model that bugzilla presents, everyone gloms > on top of it and we're stuck with some very bizarre interactions. > > 2. I assert that Bugzilla is a pretty bad tool for release management, > because once again it only deals with a component at a time along with a > large number of other things. As a side note the release meetings at > Red Hat are pretty funny, walking through bug numbers, trying to figure > out information. Everyone needs to be their own expert in particular > package and has to bring it to the table instead of being able to > maintain release-specific summaries somewhere. Internal/external or > fedora/RHEL, it doesn't matter. They both have the same problems and > bugzilla is part of the problem. > > 3. Collecting information about crashes should probably be a completely > separate activity than bugs. Bugs are about identified problems, and > crashes have a many-to-one relationship with bugs. Some experience from > the Mozilla project is relevant here. We get a huge number of crash > reports from users on all our major platforms. We treat those crash > reports as data and have tools to mine stack traces, find top crashes, > etc. Then we turn that data into a bug that needs to be fixed. It also > allows us to target the highest-visibility problems in the product, or > the one that affects the most people. Basically "something just > crashed" and "this doesn't work like I expected" are very different > problem reports, and should be handled differently. > > So that's my little rant about Bugzilla. As for reporting, I think that > we can do a lot better than what we have now. Which is, uhh, nothing > really. Bug-buddy kind of works, but not well. I think greg is on the > right path, but we need some real thinking about who we're targeting. > People like us? Our users? Unsophisticated people? Basically I think > that before we dive in we want to do a really good job of defining the > problem, otherwise everyone will have different ideas about what we're > building to enable better crash and bug reporting. More thoughts about this: What *is* Bugzilla? First of all, it's a database. It functions reasonably well as a database, too. We track thousands of components, and all things considered, it could be a hell of a lot worse. It's also a UI in front of a database. In this respect, it's pretty limited -- largely because we treat it as monolithic web UI, and monolithic web UIs always, always suck in some fundamental way -- especially as complexity grows. I can certainly attest to this from my days in RHN. It's also a set of xmlrpc APIs. We don't use this functionality nearly as well as we could -- but in my opinion, exploiting these APIs is the future. Ultimately, we'll need lots of different UIs for lots of different uses, and good APIs are the key to building these. --g ------------------------------------------------------------- Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Project || fedoraproject.org Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors ------------------------------------------------------------- From blizzard at redhat.com Wed May 10 15:56:32 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 11:56:32 -0400 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <4460C1F5.2010903@math.unl.edu> References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> <1147147870.2126.22.camel@ender> <1147185091.26347.15.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> <4460ABF4.1040703@math.unl.edu> <1147190943.2673.41.camel@metroid.rdu.redhat.com> <4460C1F5.2010903@math.unl.edu> Message-ID: <44620D30.7060509@redhat.com> Rex Dieter wrote: > I personally have a problem with that (maybe it's just the cranky > sysadmin in me): > * If a bug isn't worth a few minutes of your time to create a bugzilla > account, the bug must not be that important. This (IMO, small) barrier > weeds out frivolous reports. Easier bug reporting is nice, but not at > the expense of receiving *good* bug reports. Not sure if I agree with this assertion. It might not be worth your time because it's currently high cost to process it. If you can make it easy for them and useful to you because it contributes to an overall image of what's going on (adding to a data set) then it's definitely worth it. Right now all we have is bugzilla, and it's the window that we're looking through. Of course, everything seems expensive through that haze. :) > * Without a bugzilla account, there is no mechanism for further > correspondence/feedback between reporter and developers. I think this > is important too. Maybe yes, maybe no. I would respond and say that getting the data is still a net plus (assuming my caveats above) and that if we can't get the contact information it's still worth it to at least get the data. Maybe it's as simple as just asking for an email address, and that's it. I would say that for most casual users a bugzilla account is waaay too much overhead. And we're missing valuable data as a result. --Chris From blizzard at redhat.com Wed May 10 16:03:43 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 12:03:43 -0400 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <4460D76B.5000607@math.unl.edu> References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> <1147147870.2126.22.camel@ender> <1147185091.26347.15.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> <4460ABF4.1040703@math.unl.edu> <1147190943.2673.41.camel@metroid.rdu.redhat.com> <4460C1F5.2010903@math.unl.edu> <4460D76B.5000607@math.unl.edu> Message-ID: <44620EDF.8020203@redhat.com> Rex Dieter wrote: > > Good point, such anonymous bug report data may be useful after all. If > done this way, we'd have to be careful to make sure users don't end up > thinking the anonymous reports are good enough and stop using bugzilla > altogether. I think that what I'm trying to say here is that I think it's time that we try to stop thinking that the only place we can collect this information is bugzilla. A one-to-one relationship between crashes and bugs is high overhead, anonymous, useless data. But take data, put it somewhere else and make it available in a way that's useful and you've just made your lives much easier. You learn more about what's going on in the world and you've just made bugzilla higher signal too - by removing all the data that should have been somewhere else in the first place. Bugzilla should be for tasks that real humans have to do, not data that needs to be collected and processed. --Chris From blizzard at redhat.com Wed May 10 16:09:48 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 12:09:48 -0400 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <1147151537.4115.13.camel@thl.ct.heise.de> References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> <1147151537.4115.13.camel@thl.ct.heise.de> Message-ID: <4462104C.4080202@redhat.com> Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > /me is late in the discussion -- and it seems everything important is > already said. > > Just to make sure: I also don't like the idea of having kernels in > extras or adding a CCRMA-Kernel to core. What I fear most besides the > maintenance nightmare: openVZ, vserver, swsusp2, reiser4 other projects> would probably want their own Fedora-Kernel in that > case, too. And I don't think we really want that ;-) Modules are OK, though. Depends on _what_ they want to do. Does it require changes to the code, or is it just an add-on? Some we want to prevent, some we want to encourage. --Chris From jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org Wed May 10 16:37:12 2006 From: jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org (Josh Boyer) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 11:37:12 -0500 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <4461FF1A.1040208@redhat.com> References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <4461FF1A.1040208@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1147279032.2512.93.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> On Wed, 2006-05-10 at 10:56 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > Tim Burke wrote: > > Just to share some exposure into what it takes to keep a non-standard > > kernel working in the Fedora tree: > > - Pretty much a full-time dedicated highly experienced kernel developer > > to spend the vast majority of their time playing patch monkey to keep up > > with the high rate of upstream change. We have someone doing this role > > for Xen and its more than a fulltime job. Same thing would have to > > happen for an OLPC kernel. Certainly the amount of work is commensurate > > with the nature of the changes. Having seen the RT patch set, that is > > invasive and would also require similar effort. > > I've got Marcelo Tosatti and David Woodhouse to do this work for OLPC. > I'm hoping that they will be able to do most of their work upstream and > we pick up changes that way but I know that we're going to have local > changes both for the same of experimentation and because maybe we need > something that hasn't been taken. In either case, we're going to have > to have a variant for OLPC. I'm sure that RHEL doesn't care about the > things that we do and we don't care about 90% of the RHEL drivers. :) Working upstream and in a fashion that is acceptable to upstream are two things that David and Marcelo are exceptionally good at. I don't think you need to worry about that particularly. > > - As was pointed out earlier, the path to the Fedora kernel leads from > > upstream. > > It is but the idea that "one kernel is enough" doesn't fly when you're > supporting more than one product, certainly from the RHAT side of the > fence and even more so when we're trying to enable other people to use > Fedora to experiment and do other interesting things. We need to get > creative and find a way to scale instead of just saying "it's hard." Ok, I'm going to stumble here a bit because I think we're coming at this from two totally different viewpoints. Bear with me. What products is Fedora supposed to be supporting? If you look at it from existing kernels today, I see: stock, Xen, GFS, cman, dlm and gnbd. Then we're talking about others like OLPC, CCRMA, etc. Now, take a step back and look at all that for a second. How many of those are really installed by the typical Fedora user? I'd say probably 2, stock and Xen. Why? Because those two have the most value to the majority of Fedora users. (Yes, I'm completely ignoring the fact that the other kernels have a large value to Red Hat as a _company_. Hopefully you'll see why in a second.) You bring up an excellent point in that there _are_ people that want to do new and interesting things with Fedora. And that if those people _are_ interested in some of the other variants, they should be accessible. However, I don't think having all of those kernels being officially pushed out by the buildsys is required. In fact, it often doesn't happen anyway because the patches don't apply or build at any given moment. So, how can we enable those that want to play with these other kernels? I think it's going to come down to something along the lines of having those kernels be projects in and of themselves. And by project, I mean projects like plague, mock, etc. That's part of the reason I'm so interested in getting a hosting system in place that works and works well. It would allow those that want to tinker with things to either build the kernel themselves, or pull from a project specific repo. Now, once those kernel projects become more stable, then you can take a two pronged approach. You start pushing stuff upstream, and you start moving stuff into Core as Xen, GFS, etc are currently done. But trying to actually do _development_ of the kernels that way just doesn't scale and causes the burnout that lots of people have talked about already. So here are the questions that I see: 1) Who maintains kernel project X? Depends on the project. For something like OLPC, it would be David and Marcelo obviously. And if a project fizzles and dies, then it probably wasn't going to have tons of value add anyway. 2) What about all the security issues? My cynical approach on that is they happen anyway, even with today's model so it's not really different. Think about it. A user has xen kernel X installed from rawhide. A new kernel is pushed out that fixes a security issue, but Xen doesn't build so it doesn't get a kernel update. Does that user reboot into the new kernel even though Xen doesn't work? That choice is largely up to them and it still would be with doing stuff in a project. It's not ideal, but I don't think it's any worse off. 3) What about the "bugs reported against the Fedora kernel incorrectly" issue? I'm naively hoping the ideas for the bug reporting tool that Will and Greg and others are kicking around will help with that :). I have no good answer for this, mostly because when you talk about multiple kernels there really is no golden bullet for this problem. Is this all a crack-rock idea? Maybe. I got little sleep last night and probably shouldn't be thinking too hard about anything important. But I do think Chris is right. One kernel isn't going to cut it for all the "products" that are being played with and even all the users out there. At least with kernel projects the opportunity for external people to dig in and help out becomes a bit easier to achieve. josh (And yes, having a bitbucket kernel project would be possible I suppose. But I don't think it's sustainable in the long run and I don't think you'll find anyone willing to maintain it.) From wwoods at redhat.com Wed May 10 16:47:56 2006 From: wwoods at redhat.com (Will Woods) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 12:47:56 -0400 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <44620AFA.4020509@redhat.com> References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> <1147147870.2126.22.camel@ender> <1147185091.26347.15.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> <4460ABF4.1040703@math.unl.edu> <1147190943.2673.41.camel@metroid.rdu.redhat.com> <44620AFA.4020509@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1147279676.2673.58.camel@metroid.rdu.redhat.com> On Wed, 2006-05-10 at 11:47 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > Will Woods wrote: > > 1) A nice client (maybe built from bug-buddy) for people to quickly and > > easily report bugs *without a bugzilla account*. This client would > > gather pertinent system info (Fedora or Alternatives package? Weirdo > > kernel?) and include it in the bug report. I should amend this - I don't want to fill bugzilla with anonymous, auto-generated bug reports. Creating a new bug should probably still require a login, or at the very least an email address. I *do* want a very quick way for people to submit an extra data point for known bugs. If someone encounters a bug, and they run Bug Hero (or whatever this theoretical thing would be called) and find the problem in the list of Current Hot Issues, submitting a "me too" comment with pertinent system info/log messages should be a one-click thing. > > 2) Attached to bugzilla: a central, scoreboard-style web page with > > up-to-the-minute info on hot issues, bug tracking, release notes, etc. > > Basically, a site that will help answer the question: "WTF just > > happened?". And I want links to this in our Firefox package, on the > > desktop, etc. > > Yep. Think data collection and mining, not filing bugs. Instead of > having our overloaded developers traiging crash and bug reports, have > them fixing things. Absolutely - one big goal is to try to *reduce* the total number of bug reports, by giving users a smart(ish) tool that help them find their bug. This would hopfully lead to less dupes and more data for reported bugs. -w From notting at redhat.com Wed May 10 16:53:13 2006 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 12:53:13 -0400 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <1147279032.2512.93.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <4461FF1A.1040208@redhat.com> <1147279032.2512.93.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: <20060510165313.GA24662@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Josh Boyer (jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org) said: > Ok, I'm going to stumble here a bit because I think we're coming at this > from two totally different viewpoints. Bear with me. > > What products is Fedora supposed to be supporting? If you look at it > from existing kernels today, I see: stock, Xen, GFS, cman, dlm and gnbd. > Then we're talking about others like OLPC, CCRMA, etc. There's a difference here. GFS/cman/dlm/gnbd are modules; they (theoretically) run on most any kernel. Xen, OLPC, and CCRMA are all variants of the kernel, involving patching core code and rebuilding the core kernel. The rest of the points stand, though. Bill From jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org Wed May 10 16:59:27 2006 From: jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org (Josh Boyer) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 11:59:27 -0500 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <20060510165313.GA24662@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <4461FF1A.1040208@redhat.com> <1147279032.2512.93.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <20060510165313.GA24662@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1147280367.2512.96.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> On Wed, 2006-05-10 at 12:53 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Josh Boyer (jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org) said: > > Ok, I'm going to stumble here a bit because I think we're coming at this > > from two totally different viewpoints. Bear with me. > > > > What products is Fedora supposed to be supporting? If you look at it > > from existing kernels today, I see: stock, Xen, GFS, cman, dlm and gnbd. > > Then we're talking about others like OLPC, CCRMA, etc. > > There's a difference here. GFS/cman/dlm/gnbd are modules; they (theoretically) > run on most any kernel. Then they, theoretically, should be using the kmod stuff Extras came up with. I'll leave that for another day though :) > > Xen, OLPC, and CCRMA are all variants of the kernel, involving > patching core code and rebuilding the core kernel. > > The rest of the points stand, though. Thanks for the correction. josh From mspevack at redhat.com Wed May 10 17:29:53 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 13:29:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] ignore me Message-ID: Working on setting up a read-only child of f-a-b that anyone can subscribe to. Test message to see how well that configuration is going. From mspevack at redhat.com Wed May 10 17:44:26 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 13:44:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] ignore me In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Working on setting up a read-only child of f-a-b that anyone can subscribe > to. > > Test message to see how well that configuration is going. Continue to ignore this thread. Why are you still reading? From amaier at redhat.com Wed May 10 17:49:38 2006 From: amaier at redhat.com (Alex Maier) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 13:49:38 -0400 Subject: [fab] ignore me In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1147283378.4236.65.camel@dhcp13-197.munich.redhat.com> Who told you anyone was reading this thread? I for once, am *totally* ignoring it. a On Wed, 2006-05-10 at 13:44 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: > > Working on setting up a read-only child of f-a-b that anyone can subscribe > > to. > > > > Test message to see how well that configuration is going. > > Continue to ignore this thread. > > Why are you still reading? > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board Alex Maier Red Hat---Sr Marketing Specialist 1801 Varsity Dr, Raleigh, NC 27606, USA Direct: +1 919 754 4004 Mobile: +1 919 455 8330 From jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org Wed May 10 17:49:54 2006 From: jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org (Josh Boyer) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 12:49:54 -0500 Subject: [fab] ignore me In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1147283394.2512.99.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> On Wed, 2006-05-10 at 13:44 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: > > Working on setting up a read-only child of f-a-b that anyone can subscribe > > to. > > > > Test message to see how well that configuration is going. > > Continue to ignore this thread. > > Why are you still reading? Because we wait with abated breath for any wisdom we may glean from your leadership. ;) josh From tburke at redhat.com Wed May 10 17:53:44 2006 From: tburke at redhat.com (Tim Burke) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 13:53:44 -0400 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <1147279032.2512.93.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <4461FF1A.1040208@redhat.com> <1147279032.2512.93.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: <446228A8.3040709@redhat.com> Josh Boyer wrote: > > So, how can we enable those that want to play with these other kernels? > I think it's going to come down to something along the lines of having > those kernels be projects in and of themselves. > Now, once those kernel projects become more stable, then you can take a > two pronged approach. You start pushing stuff upstream, and you start > moving stuff into Core as Xen, GFS, etc are currently done. But trying > to actually do _development_ of the kernels that way just doesn't scale > and causes the burnout that lots of people have talked about already. > > Agreed. If someone wants to build up a community around a separate project thats cool. Then if it gets a following it can pursue upstream. The concept of doing parallel kernel development in the main kernel pool freaked me out. From mspevack at redhat.com Wed May 10 17:58:57 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 13:58:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] ignore me In-Reply-To: <1147283394.2512.99.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> References: <1147283394.2512.99.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 May 2006, Josh Boyer wrote: > On Wed, 2006-05-10 at 13:44 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: >> Why are you still reading? > > Because we wait with abated breath for any wisdom we may glean from your > leadership. You won't gain any insights into making mailman function properly, that's for sure. From blizzard at redhat.com Wed May 10 20:41:26 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 16:41:26 -0400 Subject: [fab] ignore me In-Reply-To: <1147283378.4236.65.camel@dhcp13-197.munich.redhat.com> References: <1147283378.4236.65.camel@dhcp13-197.munich.redhat.com> Message-ID: <44624FF6.3040809@redhat.com> I'm totally reading this thread. --Chris Alex Maier wrote: > Who told you anyone was reading this thread? > I for once, am *totally* ignoring it. > a > > On Wed, 2006-05-10 at 13:44 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: >>> Working on setting up a read-only child of f-a-b that anyone can subscribe >>> to. >>> >>> Test message to see how well that configuration is going. >> Continue to ignore this thread. >> >> Why are you still reading? >> >> _______________________________________________ >> fedora-advisory-board mailing list >> fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com >> http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board > Alex Maier > Red Hat---Sr Marketing Specialist > 1801 Varsity Dr, Raleigh, NC 27606, USA > Direct: +1 919 754 4004 > Mobile: +1 919 455 8330 > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board From blizzard at redhat.com Wed May 10 20:58:56 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 16:58:56 -0400 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <1147274803.15425.5.camel@cutter> References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> <1147147870.2126.22.camel@ender> <1147150607.5943.32.camel@cutter> <446201F3.4000705@redhat.com> <1147274803.15425.5.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <44625410.5030803@redhat.com> seth vidal wrote: > On Wed, 2006-05-10 at 11:08 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: >> Yeah, here's another example of the dichotomy: >> >> seth vidal wrote: >>> Some complexity in enabling Alternatives: >>> 1. we can't enable alternatives by default - the obsoletes it could >>> allow would eat packages for people who really just want to use core. >>> 2. create a sensible way of dealing with conflicts - something we don't >>> really need to deal with right now. >> Inside of Fedora >> >>> 3. dealing with alternative tree creation and QA. What if a user >>> creates a fedora 'distro' using an alternatives kernel? How does that >>> impact testing? How do we cope with the near endless number of >>> combination or configurations we might get? >> and creating full Fedora variants. >> >> What we really need to be focused on is a better comps system. >> Something that doesn't just know about packages but also knows about >> repos and replacing some packages with packages from other repositories. >> Our current systems are built around "one Fedora to rule them all" and >> that's just not going to work anymore. >> > > Do we need to be focused on that? It seems like it's a pretty serious > edge case but we need to make sure we have the core case working before > trailing off after edge cases. The cases that I see that it enables are: One Laptop per Child LiveCD this music thing Good number of reasonable cases there, at least from where I sit. --Chris From jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org Wed May 10 21:11:19 2006 From: jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org (Josh Boyer) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 16:11:19 -0500 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <44625410.5030803@redhat.com> References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> <1147147870.2126.22.camel@ender> <1147150607.5943.32.camel@cutter> <446201F3.4000705@redhat.com> <1147274803.15425.5.camel@cutter> <44625410.5030803@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1147295479.2512.107.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> On Wed, 2006-05-10 at 16:58 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > >> What we really need to be focused on is a better comps system. > >> Something that doesn't just know about packages but also knows about > >> repos and replacing some packages with packages from other repositories. > >> Our current systems are built around "one Fedora to rule them all" and > >> that's just not going to work anymore. > >> > > > > Do we need to be focused on that? It seems like it's a pretty serious > > edge case but we need to make sure we have the core case working before > > trailing off after edge cases. > > The cases that I see that it enables are: > > One Laptop per Child Side note: Ok, not that OLPC isn't cool and shiny and exciting... but is it really a good example to be using in regards to what Fedora needs to adapt to? I mean, without one of the OLPC machines... what benefit does the OLPC have to Fedora itself? To be honest, I almost see OLPC as being it's own distro. (One that I would personally love to play with myself because it _does_ sound cool.) > LiveCD > this music thing These seem much more relevant for what Fedora is geared towards. josh From blizzard at redhat.com Wed May 10 21:12:48 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 17:12:48 -0400 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <1147279032.2512.93.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <4461FF1A.1040208@redhat.com> <1147279032.2512.93.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: <44625750.804@redhat.com> Josh Boyer wrote: > Working upstream and in a fashion that is acceptable to upstream are two > things that David and Marcelo are exceptionally good at. I don't think > you need to worry about that particularly. I need to worry about the fact that I need a kernel that has wildly different preferences and possibly patches than the stock fedora kernel. We will not be using the stock i686/i586 kernel. We know we do most of that work upstream, but what about the stuff that doesn't? And the fact that it has a different config? > You bring up an excellent point in that there _are_ people that want to > do new and interesting things with Fedora. And that if those people > _are_ interested in some of the other variants, they should be > accessible. However, I don't think having all of those kernels being > officially pushed out by the buildsys is required. In fact, it often > doesn't happen anyway because the patches don't apply or build at any > given moment. I think you're right. So I will create a dichotomy here. I think that the two things we're talking about here are 1. people who want to experiment and play and 2. people who want to drive something to product status. Both of them are valid and both of them need to have Fedora as the center point for the code and the effort. > 2) What about all the security issues? > > My cynical approach on that is they happen anyway, even with today's > model so it's not really different. Think about it. A user has xen > kernel X installed from rawhide. A new kernel is pushed out that fixes > a security issue, but Xen doesn't build so it doesn't get a kernel > update. Does that user reboot into the new kernel even though Xen > doesn't work? That choice is largely up to them and it still would be > with doing stuff in a project. It's not ideal, but I don't think it's > any worse off. This is the one that I think we're going to have the most problems with. Even in the "play" case above, people still want reasonable security updates. And the farther that you fork from the main kernel the harder it is to come back and apply security updates. I'm not sure what to do about this case, but we need some creative thinking. We want people to be able to follow, modify and keep updates. From our tree (think productize, as OLPC does) our outside of our tree (think audio projects/realtime patches.) How do we enable that and create the best incentives to keep updated as closely as possible? --Chris From notting at redhat.com Wed May 10 21:15:53 2006 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 17:15:53 -0400 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <1147295479.2512.107.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> References: <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> <1147147870.2126.22.camel@ender> <1147150607.5943.32.camel@cutter> <446201F3.4000705@redhat.com> <1147274803.15425.5.camel@cutter> <44625410.5030803@redhat.com> <1147295479.2512.107.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: <20060510211553.GB3958@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Josh Boyer (jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org) said: > > The cases that I see that it enables are: > > > > One Laptop per Child > > Side note: Ok, not that OLPC isn't cool and shiny and exciting... but > is it really a good example to be using in regards to what Fedora needs > to adapt to? I mean, without one of the OLPC machines... what benefit > does the OLPC have to Fedora itself? To be honest, I almost see OLPC as > being it's own distro. (One that I would personally love to play with > myself because it _does_ sound cool.) If the idea is that Fedora is this base that you can build Things On, yes. In this case, OLPC is sort of like RHEL. Or CentOS. Or Some Random Fedora Thing That Goes On Linksys Routers. Bill From blizzard at redhat.com Wed May 10 21:19:09 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 17:19:09 -0400 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> <1147147870.2126.22.camel@ender> <1147185091.26347.15.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> <4460ABF4.1040703@math.unl.edu> <44620810.9030706@redhat.com> Message-ID: <446258CD.6040504@redhat.com> Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > More thoughts about this: > > What *is* Bugzilla? > > First of all, it's a database. It functions reasonably well as a > database, too. We track thousands of components, and all things > considered, it could be a hell of a lot worse. > > It's also a UI in front of a database. In this respect, it's pretty > limited -- largely because we treat it as monolithic web UI, and > monolithic web UIs always, always suck in some fundamental way -- > especially as complexity grows. I can certainly attest to this from my > days in RHN. > > It's also a set of xmlrpc APIs. We don't use this functionality nearly as > well as we could -- but in my opinion, exploiting these APIs is the > future. Ultimately, we'll need lots of different UIs for lots of > different uses, and good APIs are the key to building these. There were a bunch of key points that came out of a study that some Very Smart People did in studying our errata and bug reporting process a few months. Lots of people on this list know what I'm talking about. But one of the most important things on that list was the concept that bugzilla has exactly one view of data. Go to a bug and look at it and you see everything that everyone could possibly care about. Bug flags, status, what you can do next with it, every comment, every status field, every possible status. One view that everyone wants to use. So one of the suggestions was that everyone has their own view of the data. As a developer I care about different things than QA or even as a manager, who wants to know what his reports are working on and what his or who group is responsible for. In the past, when someone wants to "fix" something in bugzilla, they add another field or another button in the interface. And that has turned it into something that no one understands but everyone has to use. So when you ask "what is it?" I reply "it's everything to everyone." Certainly on the UI and workflow front, we need some very different thinking about what it is. It could be so much better than it is. --Chris From blizzard at redhat.com Wed May 10 21:23:29 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 17:23:29 -0400 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <1147295479.2512.107.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> <1147147870.2126.22.camel@ender> <1147150607.5943.32.camel@cutter> <446201F3.4000705@redhat.com> <1147274803.15425.5.camel@cutter> <44625410.5030803@redhat.com> <1147295479.2512.107.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: <446259D1.6060603@redhat.com> Josh Boyer wrote: >> One Laptop per Child > > Side note: Ok, not that OLPC isn't cool and shiny and exciting... but > is it really a good example to be using in regards to what Fedora needs > to adapt to? I mean, without one of the OLPC machines... what benefit > does the OLPC have to Fedora itself? To be honest, I almost see OLPC as > being it's own distro. (One that I would personally love to play with > myself because it _does_ sound cool.) I see Fedora as a Canary. Using Fedora as a base, with a very different focus, user base and design point. It's closer to mythtv than it is to what the Fedora desktop is today. But it's the first, and we want to enable more of this, not less. Experiment, prototype, go forth and change. And use Fedora as your base to do so. But your question is valid. What does OLPC give Fedora? Hopefully quite a few side effects. At some point we'll be attacking memory usage and suspend/resume stuff, and everyone will benefit from that. We'll be breaking package dependencies where we can, experimenting with new ways to distribute, install and update software. I'll bet a huge amount of that will be useful down the road. There is a significant halo effect here - don't ignore it. :) --Chris > >> LiveCD >> this music thing > > These seem much more relevant for what Fedora is geared towards. > > josh > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board From notting at redhat.com Wed May 10 21:23:32 2006 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 17:23:32 -0400 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <44625750.804@redhat.com> References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <4461FF1A.1040208@redhat.com> <1147279032.2512.93.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <44625750.804@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20060510212331.GC3958@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Christopher Blizzard (blizzard at redhat.com) said: > I need to worry about the fact that I need a kernel that has wildly > different preferences and possibly patches than the stock fedora kernel. > We will not be using the stock i686/i586 kernel. We know we do most > of that work upstream, but what about the stuff that doesn't? And the > fact that it has a different config? A separate config on top of common upstream code is relatively simple; it may break building, but it is generally easy to fix. Keeping separate codebases working on top of upstream *cough*Xen*cough* is another matter entirely. The question is how to make this easier for people - tinderboxing? Alerts of breakage on new checkins *to upstream*? What sort of tools can we make that make this easier, whether it's for the Xen maintainers, the CCRMA people looking at real-time patches, or even for someone who just wants to add a new-not-yet-upstream wireless driver? > This is the one that I think we're going to have the most problems with. > Even in the "play" case above, people still want reasonable security > updates. And the farther that you fork from the main kernel the harder > it is to come back and apply security updates. > > I'm not sure what to do about this case, but we need some creative > thinking. We want people to be able to follow, modify and keep updates. > From our tree (think productize, as OLPC does) our outside of our tree > (think audio projects/realtime patches.) How do we enable that and > create the best incentives to keep updated as closely as possible? The 'as currently done' approach would be: - keep your own maintainer. Charge him with fixing it for each security update This is not the most scalable solution, obviously. Perhaps this is the carrot/stick that encourages people to get their code upstream; I'm not sure. Bill From jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org Wed May 10 21:26:57 2006 From: jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org (Josh Boyer) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 16:26:57 -0500 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <20060510211553.GB3958@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> <1147147870.2126.22.camel@ender> <1147150607.5943.32.camel@cutter> <446201F3.4000705@redhat.com> <1147274803.15425.5.camel@cutter> <44625410.5030803@redhat.com> <1147295479.2512.107.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <20060510211553.GB3958@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1147296417.2512.111.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> On Wed, 2006-05-10 at 17:15 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Josh Boyer (jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org) said: > > > The cases that I see that it enables are: > > > > > > One Laptop per Child > > > > Side note: Ok, not that OLPC isn't cool and shiny and exciting... but > > is it really a good example to be using in regards to what Fedora needs > > to adapt to? I mean, without one of the OLPC machines... what benefit > > does the OLPC have to Fedora itself? To be honest, I almost see OLPC as > > being it's own distro. (One that I would personally love to play with > > myself because it _does_ sound cool.) > > If the idea is that Fedora is this base that you can build Things On, > yes. In this case, OLPC is sort of like RHEL. Or CentOS. Or Some Random > Fedora Thing That Goes On Linksys Routers. Sure. But the section that you snipped was talking about focusing on a better comps system that "knows about repos and replacing some packages with packages from other repositories." You don't replace Fedora packages with ones from RHEL or CentOS, or Some Random Fedroa Thing That Goes On Linksys Routers. Those become completely different distros that base their packages off of Fedora. josh From jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org Wed May 10 21:34:14 2006 From: jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org (Josh Boyer) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 16:34:14 -0500 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <446259D1.6060603@redhat.com> References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <80d7e4090605082032ye108ecav51d6e7ca969759bc@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605082039s187d8f19ue9a475d37790685d@mail.gmail.com> <1147147870.2126.22.camel@ender> <1147150607.5943.32.camel@cutter> <446201F3.4000705@redhat.com> <1147274803.15425.5.camel@cutter> <44625410.5030803@redhat.com> <1147295479.2512.107.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <446259D1.6060603@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1147296854.2512.118.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> On Wed, 2006-05-10 at 17:23 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > Josh Boyer wrote: > >> One Laptop per Child > > > > Side note: Ok, not that OLPC isn't cool and shiny and exciting... but > > is it really a good example to be using in regards to what Fedora needs > > to adapt to? I mean, without one of the OLPC machines... what benefit > > does the OLPC have to Fedora itself? To be honest, I almost see OLPC as > > being it's own distro. (One that I would personally love to play with > > myself because it _does_ sound cool.) > > I see Fedora as a Canary. Using Fedora as a base, with a very different > focus, user base and design point. It's closer to mythtv than it is to > what the Fedora desktop is today. But it's the first, and we want to > enable more of this, not less. Experiment, prototype, go forth and > change. And use Fedora as your base to do so. Yes, use Fedora as a base. Great. Sign me up! But seem my response to Bill about the more specific question I was asking in regards to your comment about the comps system, etc. :) > > But your question is valid. What does OLPC give Fedora? Hopefully > quite a few side effects. At some point we'll be attacking memory usage > and suspend/resume stuff, and everyone will benefit from that. We'll be > breaking package dependencies where we can, experimenting with new ways > to distribute, install and update software. I'll bet a huge amount of > that will be useful down the road. There is a significant halo effect > here - don't ignore it. :) Oh, I'm well aware of some of the halo effects that OLPC could produce. I come from the embedded world where fighting with space constraints and memory consumption is a daily battle. Why else would I think OLPC is so cool? :) josh From blizzard at redhat.com Wed May 10 21:38:59 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 17:38:59 -0400 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <20060510212331.GC3958@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <4461FF1A.1040208@redhat.com> <1147279032.2512.93.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <44625750.804@redhat.com> <20060510212331.GC3958@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <44625D73.70007@redhat.com> Bill Nottingham wrote: > A separate config on top of common upstream code is relatively simple; > it may break building, but it is generally easy to fix. > > Keeping separate codebases working on top of upstream *cough*Xen*cough* > is another matter entirely. The question is how to make this easier > for people - tinderboxing? Alerts of breakage on new checkins *to upstream*? As an example, OLPC is both of these things. In the end it's probably a separate config, but between now and when we ship we're going to need to do patches + stock kernel for testing and integration. This is really a product lifecycle issue for me and right now our current process are really only around one lifecycle: the Fedora and RHEL lifecycle. THe question that I see is: how do we allow people to experiment in some kind of blessed way that enables them to do so, and still allows our own processes to move forward and scale? > > What sort of tools can we make that make this easier, whether it's for > the Xen maintainers, the CCRMA people looking at real-time patches, > or even for someone who just wants to add a new-not-yet-upstream wireless > driver? Not sure. We're probably shy about writing tools, but I think we need a stronger problem definition and research before we even start talking about ideas around tools. I feel like we're getting some sense of the problem statement, though. >> This is the one that I think we're going to have the most problems with. >> Even in the "play" case above, people still want reasonable security >> updates. And the farther that you fork from the main kernel the harder >> it is to come back and apply security updates. >> >> I'm not sure what to do about this case, but we need some creative >> thinking. We want people to be able to follow, modify and keep updates. >> From our tree (think productize, as OLPC does) our outside of our tree >> (think audio projects/realtime patches.) How do we enable that and >> create the best incentives to keep updated as closely as possible? > > The 'as currently done' approach would be: > - keep your own maintainer. Charge him with fixing it for each security > update > > This is not the most scalable solution, obviously. Perhaps this is > the carrot/stick that encourages people to get their code upstream; > I'm not sure. > It's most certainly a stick! :) I think that "keep your own maintainer" isn't enough. I wonder how we can move to "act as a co-maintainer." i.e. let's give Dave Jones a break and still enable us to scale this out a bit. --Chris From jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org Wed May 10 21:56:18 2006 From: jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org (Josh Boyer) Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 16:56:18 -0500 Subject: [fab] Non-standard kernels in the Fedora Multiverse In-Reply-To: <20060510212331.GC3958@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <1147134994.2594.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <445FFF94.8030809@redhat.com> <4461FF1A.1040208@redhat.com> <1147279032.2512.93.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <44625750.804@redhat.com> <20060510212331.GC3958@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1147298178.2512.127.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> On Wed, 2006-05-10 at 17:23 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Christopher Blizzard (blizzard at redhat.com) said: > > I need to worry about the fact that I need a kernel that has wildly > > different preferences and possibly patches than the stock fedora kernel. > > We will not be using the stock i686/i586 kernel. We know we do most > > of that work upstream, but what about the stuff that doesn't? And the > > fact that it has a different config? > > A separate config on top of common upstream code is relatively simple; > it may break building, but it is generally easy to fix. > > Keeping separate codebases working on top of upstream *cough*Xen*cough* > is another matter entirely. The question is how to make this easier > for people - tinderboxing? Alerts of breakage on new checkins *to upstream*? I think it requires experimentation in small steps. Start by using the tools whatever upstream you're tracking uses. In the case of the kernel, use git. You can generate patches for RPMs out of that. Or if you want to use pristine+patches, use StGit. I don't think we'll be able to sit here and ponder up grand solutions to this problem without at least trying a few things here and there. > > What sort of tools can we make that make this easier, whether it's for > the Xen maintainers, the CCRMA people looking at real-time patches, > or even for someone who just wants to add a new-not-yet-upstream wireless > driver? The biggest headaches come from big, intrusive patches. Something small like a new driver isn't too hard to keep in-sync with upstream simply because the amount of change in upstream is fairly localized. josh From jkeating at redhat.com Fri May 12 21:40:07 2006 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 17:40:07 -0400 Subject: [fab] New Fedora QA Event happening ... NOW! Message-ID: <1147470007.3529.33.camel@ender> Will Woods and I kicked off a QA event today, getting rapid buyin from Max and a few members of the board. We were very rushed because we wanted to get people working on it this weekend. Read the details here: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/FixBuildRequires Please let us know what you think. Will's announcement regarding this event should be hitting public mail lists soon, once our email issues get sorted out. -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mspevack at redhat.com Sun May 14 20:20:22 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 16:20:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo Message-ID: Howdy folks, The Fedora Project Board meets next Tuesday (5/16), and Matthew Szulik (Red Hat CEO) is scheduled to be in on the meeting. I've asked the board members to think about some of the topics they'd like to discuss with Matthew, but I wanted to throw it out to this list in full. What are some of the things you'd all like to see discussed? I'm gonna leave it open-ended on purpose for now, rather than seed the discussion with my own ideas. Thanks, Max -- Max Spevack + http://people.redhat.com/mspevack/ + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From mspevack at redhat.com Mon May 15 16:23:04 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 12:23:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 14 May 2006, Max Spevack wrote: > Howdy folks, > > The Fedora Project Board meets next Tuesday (5/16), and Matthew Szulik (Red > Hat CEO) is scheduled to be in on the meeting. > > I've asked the board members to think about some of the topics they'd like to > discuss with Matthew, but I wanted to throw it out to this list in full. > What are some of the things you'd all like to see discussed? > > I'm gonna leave it open-ended on purpose for now, rather than seed the > discussion with my own ideas. Nothing? Someone's gotta have some Fedora-related topics that you'd like the guy who runs Red Hat to comment on. -- Max Spevack + http://people.redhat.com/mspevack/ + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From Christian.Iseli at licr.org Mon May 15 16:39:09 2006 From: Christian.Iseli at licr.org (Christian.Iseli at licr.org) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 18:39:09 +0200 Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 15 May 2006 12:23:04 EDT." Message-ID: <200605151639.k4FGd9sa018992@ludwig-alpha.unil.ch> mspevack at redhat.com said: > Nothing? Someone's gotta have some Fedora-related topics that you'd like > the guy who runs Red Hat to comment on. What percentage of R&D spending and maintenance spending goes into FC ? What's the outlook for the next couple years ? What kind of commitment to FE infrastructure can we get, in terms of - bandwidth - Fedora project hosting - build systems - mailing lists archiving and searching - whole repo archiving and distribution ? Any inclination on the split Core / Extras ? Any inclination on RHAS Extras ? Any new architectures planed (Itanium, SPARC, ...) for FC ? Christian From tcallawa at redhat.com Mon May 15 16:46:23 2006 From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom 'spot' Callaway) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 11:46:23 -0500 Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1147711584.10251.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2006-05-15 at 12:23 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: > On Sun, 14 May 2006, Max Spevack wrote: > > > Howdy folks, > > > > The Fedora Project Board meets next Tuesday (5/16), and Matthew Szulik (Red > > Hat CEO) is scheduled to be in on the meeting. > > > > I've asked the board members to think about some of the topics they'd like to > > discuss with Matthew, but I wanted to throw it out to this list in full. > > What are some of the things you'd all like to see discussed? > > > > I'm gonna leave it open-ended on purpose for now, rather than seed the > > discussion with my own ideas. > > Nothing? Someone's gotta have some Fedora-related topics that you'd like > the guy who runs Red Hat to comment on. I'd like to see us take the following actions, and I would be interested in Matthew's opinions on them (understanding that he is not a lawyer): - Force the invalidation of the mp3 patents via estoppel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estoppel) We know that lots of other distributions are including mp3 support (and have been for years, with no legal reprocussions), we're the odd duck out. Thomson has to enforce that patent for everyone, not just for Red Hat, for it to stay valid. I say we re-enable mp3 support in Fedora Core 6, and call out Thomson on their poor patent enforcement. - Implement and include an open source DVD player for Fedora Core 6 to challenge the validity of the DMCA. This could take years, but I doubt there is a sane minded individual in the Fedora community who thinks that the DMCA is a well crafted or just law. The only way we can get unjust laws fixed in this country is through careful civil disobedience. I would LOVE to see some of our war chest fight this battle, I suspect the EFF would jump in alongside us to help. - Fully enable kernel functionality such as NTFS support, on the grounds that the kernel is protected code under the OIN arrangement. Mono was a first step, now lets take the next big step. This will be a huge boon for desktop users, as we will be able to better support modern Windows dual boot environments, and finally be motivated to enable partition resizing in the installer, a feature that customers and end-users have been long asking for. ~spot -- Tom "spot" Callaway: Red Hat Senior Sales Engineer || GPG ID: 93054260 Fedora Extras Steering Committee Member (RPM Standards and Practices) Aurora Linux Project Leader: http://auroralinux.org Lemurs, llamas, and sparcs, oh my! From wtogami at redhat.com Mon May 15 16:54:27 2006 From: wtogami at redhat.com (Warren Togami) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 12:54:27 -0400 Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: <200605151639.k4FGd9sa018992@ludwig-alpha.unil.ch> References: <200605151639.k4FGd9sa018992@ludwig-alpha.unil.ch> Message-ID: <4468B243.6050902@redhat.com> Christian.Iseli at licr.org wrote: > mspevack at redhat.com said: >> Nothing? Someone's gotta have some Fedora-related topics that you'd like >> the guy who runs Red Hat to comment on. Some of these questions need not go to Matthew because they are too fine grained in nature. I give some answers below based upon my understanding of past public discussions. > > What percentage of R&D spending and maintenance spending goes into FC ? > What's the outlook for the next couple years ? This might be a good Matthew question. > > What kind of commitment to FE infrastructure can we get, in terms of > - bandwidth > - Fedora project hosting > - build systems > - mailing lists archiving and searching These are all of course necessary for the growth of any community project. We are always expanding and improving the infrastructure. I am not sure any "commitment" is necessary here. It is as simple as, "If we don't do this, we die." > - whole repo archiving and distribution ? What do you mean by this? > > Any inclination on the split Core / Extras ? We want to blend the differences between Core, Extras, and Legacy and make a single Fedora distribution. We've been talking about this for the past few months both in the public and privately. We will work toward achieving this goal in a series of small incremental steps. You've already begun to see some small aspects of this, like Core & Extras package reviews going on the same list. No timetable is available yet because many aspects of this are still theoretical and we are pretty busy on other priorities. In the coming months the community will see more news and discussions about this topic. > > Any inclination on RHAS Extras ? While I personally would want this, this is outside the scope of Fedora. > > Any new architectures planed (Itanium, SPARC, ...) for FC ? This depends entirely on if a sizable and self-sufficient community forms around that architecture. Both x86_64 and ppc FC happened only because community volunteers made it happen. Right now some people are trying to make FC Itanium happen. They would need to prove that they can build a community around it, and any other arch would need to do so too. Warren Togami wtogami at redhat.com From mwebbink at redhat.com Mon May 15 17:01:17 2006 From: mwebbink at redhat.com (Mark Webbink) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 13:01:17 -0400 Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: <1147711584.10251.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1147711584.10251.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4468B3DD.8040305@redhat.com> This is not correct: - Force the invalidation of the mp3 patents via estoppel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estoppel) We know that lots of other distributions are including mp3 support (and have been for years, with no legal repercussions), we're the odd duck out. Thomson has to enforce that patent for everyone, not just for Red Hat, for it to stay valid. I say we re-enable mp3 support in Fedora Core 6, and call out Thomson on their poor patent enforcement. Estoppel does not invalidate a patent. It may provide a defense against an infringement claim, but a patent holder simply not enforcing a patent against someone else does not give you the right to assert an estoppel defense. For the defense to be valid you would have to show that the patent holder has said or done something that induced you to change your behavior and that such reliance was reasonable. Also, please note that there is nothing in the law that says that a patent holder has to treat all other parties equally. A patent holder can choose to license one person and not license the next. Mark Tom 'spot' Callaway wrote: >On Mon, 2006-05-15 at 12:23 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: > > >>On Sun, 14 May 2006, Max Spevack wrote: >> >> >> >>>Howdy folks, >>> >>>The Fedora Project Board meets next Tuesday (5/16), and Matthew Szulik (Red >>>Hat CEO) is scheduled to be in on the meeting. >>> >>>I've asked the board members to think about some of the topics they'd like to >>>discuss with Matthew, but I wanted to throw it out to this list in full. >>>What are some of the things you'd all like to see discussed? >>> >>>I'm gonna leave it open-ended on purpose for now, rather than seed the >>>discussion with my own ideas. >>> >>> >>Nothing? Someone's gotta have some Fedora-related topics that you'd like >>the guy who runs Red Hat to comment on. >> >> > >I'd like to see us take the following actions, and I would be interested >in Matthew's opinions on them (understanding that he is not a lawyer): > >- Force the invalidation of the mp3 patents via estoppel >(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estoppel) We know that lots of other >distributions are including mp3 support (and have been for years, with >no legal reprocussions), we're the odd duck out. Thomson has to enforce >that patent for everyone, not just for Red Hat, for it to stay valid. I >say we re-enable mp3 support in Fedora Core 6, and call out Thomson on >their poor patent enforcement. > >- Implement and include an open source DVD player for Fedora Core 6 to >challenge the validity of the DMCA. This could take years, but I doubt >there is a sane minded individual in the Fedora community who thinks >that the DMCA is a well crafted or just law. The only way we can get >unjust laws fixed in this country is through careful civil disobedience. >I would LOVE to see some of our war chest fight this battle, I suspect >the EFF would jump in alongside us to help. > >- Fully enable kernel functionality such as NTFS support, on the grounds >that the kernel is protected code under the OIN arrangement. Mono was a >first step, now lets take the next big step. This will be a huge boon >for desktop users, as we will be able to better support modern Windows >dual boot environments, and finally be motivated to enable partition >resizing in the installer, a feature that customers and end-users have >been long asking for. > >~spot > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jkeating at redhat.com Mon May 15 17:04:01 2006 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 13:04:01 -0400 Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: <200605151639.k4FGd9sa018992@ludwig-alpha.unil.ch> References: <200605151639.k4FGd9sa018992@ludwig-alpha.unil.ch> Message-ID: <1147712641.8578.11.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> On Mon, 2006-05-15 at 18:39 +0200, Christian.Iseli at licr.org wrote: > > What kind of commitment to FE infrastructure can we get, in terms of > - bandwidth > - Fedora project hosting > - build systems > - mailing lists archiving and searching > - whole repo archiving and distribution ? Ditto this for Fedora Legacy. Legacy is still using its own infrastructure. -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From blizzard at redhat.com Mon May 15 17:04:37 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 13:04:37 -0400 Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4468B4A5.1010408@redhat.com> Max Spevack wrote: > On Sun, 14 May 2006, Max Spevack wrote: > >> Howdy folks, >> >> The Fedora Project Board meets next Tuesday (5/16), and Matthew Szulik >> (Red Hat CEO) is scheduled to be in on the meeting. >> >> I've asked the board members to think about some of the topics they'd >> like to discuss with Matthew, but I wanted to throw it out to this >> list in full. What are some of the things you'd all like to see >> discussed? >> >> I'm gonna leave it open-ended on purpose for now, rather than seed the >> discussion with my own ideas. > > Nothing? Someone's gotta have some Fedora-related topics that you'd > like the guy who runs Red Hat to comment on. > I think that I would like to hear a couple of things from Matthew: 1. His unvarnished opinion on where he thinks that Fedora fits into Red Hat's strategy. 2. His level of commitment in allowing us to drive changes inside of Engineering as require to drive our larger goal of opening up the distribution to a higher level of community involvement. 3. From where he sits where we could improve what we could be doing. Looking for feedback. --Chris From Christian.Iseli at licr.org Mon May 15 17:05:22 2006 From: Christian.Iseli at licr.org (Christian.Iseli at licr.org) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 19:05:22 +0200 Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 15 May 2006 12:54:27 EDT." <4468B243.6050902@redhat.com> Message-ID: <200605151705.k4FH5MXS019332@ludwig-alpha.unil.ch> wtogami at redhat.com said: > > - whole repo archiving and distribution ? > What do you mean by this? Basically how long RH is prepared to keep old FC distributions (and corresponding FE) online on some high-bandwidth server. Christian From blizzard at redhat.com Mon May 15 17:05:57 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 13:05:57 -0400 Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: <1147712641.8578.11.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> References: <200605151639.k4FGd9sa018992@ludwig-alpha.unil.ch> <1147712641.8578.11.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <4468B4F5.9030207@redhat.com> Jesse Keating wrote: > On Mon, 2006-05-15 at 18:39 +0200, Christian.Iseli at licr.org wrote: >> What kind of commitment to FE infrastructure can we get, in terms of >> - bandwidth >> - Fedora project hosting >> - build systems >> - mailing lists archiving and searching >> - whole repo archiving and distribution ? > > Ditto this for Fedora Legacy. Legacy is still using its own > infrastructure. Or even better, move towards a unified infrastructure for Core/Extras/Legacy. But I think I'm feeding the rathole here... --Chris From tcallawa at redhat.com Mon May 15 17:07:06 2006 From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom 'spot' Callaway) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 12:07:06 -0500 Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: <4468B3DD.8040305@redhat.com> References: <1147711584.10251.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4468B3DD.8040305@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1147712826.10251.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2006-05-15 at 13:01 -0400, Mark Webbink wrote: > This is not correct: > > - Force the invalidation of the mp3 patents via estoppel > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estoppel) We know that lots of other > distributions are including mp3 support (and have been for years, with > no legal repercussions), we're the odd duck out. Thomson has to > enforce > that patent for everyone, not just for Red Hat, for it to stay valid. > I > say we re-enable mp3 support in Fedora Core 6, and call out Thomson on > their poor patent enforcement. > > Estoppel does not invalidate a patent. It may provide a defense > against an infringement claim, but a patent holder simply not > enforcing a patent against someone else does not give you the right to > assert an estoppel defense. For the defense to be valid you would > have to show that the patent holder has said or done something that > induced you to change your behavior and that such reliance was > reasonable. Also, please note that there is nothing in the law that > says that a patent holder has to treat all other parties equally. A > patent holder can choose to license one person and not license the > next. This is why I'm not a lawyer. Thanks for the clarification Mark! I withdraw that item from Matthew's plate. ~spot -- Tom "spot" Callaway: Red Hat Senior Sales Engineer || GPG ID: 93054260 Fedora Extras Steering Committee Member (RPM Standards and Practices) Aurora Linux Project Leader: http://auroralinux.org Lemurs, llamas, and sparcs, oh my! From gdk at redhat.com Mon May 15 16:06:03 2006 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 12:06:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: <1147711584.10251.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1147711584.10251.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 May 2006, Tom 'spot' Callaway wrote: > - Fully enable kernel functionality such as NTFS support, on the grounds > that the kernel is protected code under the OIN arrangement. Mono was a > first step, now lets take the next big step. This will be a huge boon > for desktop users, as we will be able to better support modern Windows > dual boot environments, and finally be motivated to enable partition > resizing in the installer, a feature that customers and end-users have > been long asking for. Of the topics listed, this one seems like the most defensible to me. Mark? Think we'd be willing to take this one on? --g --------------------------------------------------------------- Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Foundation || fedoraproject.org Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors --------------------------------------------------------------- From wtogami at redhat.com Mon May 15 17:07:49 2006 From: wtogami at redhat.com (Warren Togami) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 13:07:49 -0400 Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: <4468B4F5.9030207@redhat.com> References: <200605151639.k4FGd9sa018992@ludwig-alpha.unil.ch> <1147712641.8578.11.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <4468B4F5.9030207@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4468B565.4050604@redhat.com> Christopher Blizzard wrote: > Jesse Keating wrote: >> On Mon, 2006-05-15 at 18:39 +0200, Christian.Iseli at licr.org wrote: >>> What kind of commitment to FE infrastructure can we get, in terms of >>> - bandwidth >>> - Fedora project hosting >>> - build systems >>> - mailing lists archiving and searching >>> - whole repo archiving and distribution ? >> >> Ditto this for Fedora Legacy. Legacy is still using its own >> infrastructure. > > Or even better, move towards a unified infrastructure for > Core/Extras/Legacy. But I think I'm feeding the rathole here... > That already *is* the idea for the future of Fedora. Warren From wtogami at redhat.com Mon May 15 17:09:04 2006 From: wtogami at redhat.com (Warren Togami) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 13:09:04 -0400 Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: <1147711584.10251.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1147711584.10251.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4468B5B0.9070200@redhat.com> Tom 'spot' Callaway wrote: > - Force the invalidation of the mp3 patents via estoppel > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estoppel) We know that lots of other > distributions are including mp3 support (and have been for years, with > no legal reprocussions), we're the odd duck out. Thomson has to enforce > that patent for everyone, not just for Red Hat, for it to stay valid. I > say we re-enable mp3 support in Fedora Core 6, and call out Thomson on > their poor patent enforcement. Thomson allegedly had a patent on MP3 for a few years prior to when they began collecting royalties. Apparently failure to enforce their patent earlier didn't prevent them from asserting it later, after the industry using it grew. Warren Togami wtogami at redhat.com From mwebbink at redhat.com Mon May 15 17:10:33 2006 From: mwebbink at redhat.com (Mark Webbink) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 13:10:33 -0400 Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: References: <1147711584.10251.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4468B609.8010206@redhat.com> If it is not already in one of the protected OIN packages, I suspect it will be challenging to get it included. Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: >On Mon, 15 May 2006, Tom 'spot' Callaway wrote: > > > >>- Fully enable kernel functionality such as NTFS support, on the grounds >>that the kernel is protected code under the OIN arrangement. Mono was a >>first step, now lets take the next big step. This will be a huge boon >>for desktop users, as we will be able to better support modern Windows >>dual boot environments, and finally be motivated to enable partition >>resizing in the installer, a feature that customers and end-users have >>been long asking for. >> >> > >Of the topics listed, this one seems like the most defensible to me. >Mark? Think we'd be willing to take this one on? > >--g > >--------------------------------------------------------------- >Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Foundation || fedoraproject.org >Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors >--------------------------------------------------------------- > > >_______________________________________________ >fedora-advisory-board mailing list >fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wtogami at redhat.com Mon May 15 17:10:34 2006 From: wtogami at redhat.com (Warren Togami) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 13:10:34 -0400 Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: <1147711584.10251.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1147711584.10251.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4468B60A.8000309@redhat.com> Tom 'spot' Callaway wrote: > > - Implement and include an open source DVD player for Fedora Core 6 to > challenge the validity of the DMCA. This could take years, but I doubt > there is a sane minded individual in the Fedora community who thinks > that the DMCA is a well crafted or just law. The only way we can get > unjust laws fixed in this country is through careful civil disobedience. > I would LOVE to see some of our war chest fight this battle, I suspect > the EFF would jump in alongside us to help. Note that DVD playing also requires using the MPEG patents. Warren Togami wtogami at redhat.com From blizzard at redhat.com Mon May 15 17:11:54 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 13:11:54 -0400 Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: <200605151705.k4FH5MXS019332@ludwig-alpha.unil.ch> References: <200605151705.k4FH5MXS019332@ludwig-alpha.unil.ch> Message-ID: <4468B65A.4030605@redhat.com> Just a note: I would like to make sure this doesn't turn into a shopping list. That's not the best use of Matthew's time. I would love for people here to engage in a strategic discussion, if it's possible. Less "what are you going to do for me" and more "what can we do together?" --Chris From mwebbink at redhat.com Mon May 15 17:14:25 2006 From: mwebbink at redhat.com (Mark Webbink) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 13:14:25 -0400 Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: <4468B65A.4030605@redhat.com> References: <200605151705.k4FH5MXS019332@ludwig-alpha.unil.ch> <4468B65A.4030605@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4468B6F1.5010906@redhat.com> Also, in fairness to Matthew, let it be a brainstorming session but don't hold him to absolute commitments. He will need the opportunity to test these ideas with others. Christopher Blizzard wrote: > Just a note: I would like to make sure this doesn't turn into a > shopping list. That's not the best use of Matthew's time. I would > love for people here to engage in a strategic discussion, if it's > possible. Less "what are you going to do for me" and more "what can > we do together?" > > --Chris > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mspevack at redhat.com Mon May 15 17:20:01 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 13:20:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: <4468B6F1.5010906@redhat.com> References: <200605151705.k4FH5MXS019332@ludwig-alpha.unil.ch> <4468B65A.4030605@redhat.com> <4468B6F1.5010906@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 May 2006, Mark Webbink wrote: > Also, in fairness to Matthew, let it be a brainstorming session but > don't hold him to absolute commitments. He will need the opportunity to > test these ideas with others. Yes, very much so. The purpose of this thread is so that the Board can accurately represent a larger set of the Fedora community, and make sure that we discuss some of the things that are important. It's not an interrogation. And it's not a place where policy will be decided. Mainly it's a forum for us to have an interesting conversation about Fedora, and for the rest of the board to be able to hear things directly from Matthew, as opposed to me having my personal one on ones with him and then repeating some of what he says to the Board. --Max > Christopher Blizzard wrote: > >> Just a note: I would like to make sure this doesn't turn into a >> shopping list. That's not the best use of Matthew's time. I would >> love for people here to engage in a strategic discussion, if it's >> possible. Less "what are you going to do for me" and more "what can >> we do together?" -- Max Spevack + http://people.redhat.com/mspevack/ + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From gdk at redhat.com Mon May 15 16:19:03 2006 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 12:19:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: <4468B609.8010206@redhat.com> References: <1147711584.10251.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4468B609.8010206@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 May 2006, Mark Webbink wrote: > If it is not already in one of the protected OIN packages, I suspect it > will be challenging to get it included. Well, technically, it's functionality that *could* be included in the Linux kernel, but isn't. Does that count? --g --------------------------------------------------------------- Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Foundation || fedoraproject.org Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors --------------------------------------------------------------- From tcallawa at redhat.com Mon May 15 17:20:35 2006 From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom 'spot' Callaway) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 12:20:35 -0500 Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: <4468B609.8010206@redhat.com> References: <1147711584.10251.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4468B609.8010206@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1147713635.10251.27.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2006-05-15 at 13:10 -0400, Mark Webbink wrote: > If it is not already in one of the protected OIN packages, I suspect > it will be challenging to get it included. We've been shipping the NTFS kernel source for some time now, just not building the modules. We'd also need to ship the ntfs userspace utilities, which are not in anything Red Hat/Fedora. ~spot -- Tom "spot" Callaway: Red Hat Senior Sales Engineer || GPG ID: 93054260 Fedora Extras Steering Committee Member (RPM Standards and Practices) Aurora Linux Project Leader: http://auroralinux.org Lemurs, llamas, and sparcs, oh my! From jkeating at redhat.com Mon May 15 17:25:26 2006 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 13:25:26 -0400 Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: References: <200605151705.k4FH5MXS019332@ludwig-alpha.unil.ch> <4468B65A.4030605@redhat.com> <4468B6F1.5010906@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1147713926.8578.15.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> On Mon, 2006-05-15 at 13:20 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: > > It's not an interrogation. And it's not a place where policy will be > decided. Mainly it's a forum for us to have an interesting conversation > about Fedora, and for the rest of the board to be able to hear things > directly from Matthew, as opposed to me having my personal one on ones > with him and then repeating some of what he says to the Board. What about 'How does he feel about creating variant Fedora distributions that use the Fedora name and logo (built from Fedora binary bits)? And further more, opensourcing the tools we use internally to create our variant of Fedora?' -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From tiemann at redhat.com Mon May 15 17:28:26 2006 From: tiemann at redhat.com (Michael Tiemann) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 13:28:26 -0400 Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1147714106.8136.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2006-05-14 at 16:20 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: > Howdy folks, > > The Fedora Project Board meets next Tuesday (5/16), and Matthew Szulik > (Red Hat CEO) is scheduled to be in on the meeting. > > I've asked the board members to think about some of the topics they'd like > to discuss with Matthew, but I wanted to throw it out to this list in > full. What are some of the things you'd all like to see discussed? My question would be: If Fedora could do one thing perfectly, what would it be? I pose that question to the FAB--how would you justify that specific achievable goal as the highest priority to Matthew, and I'd pose that question to Matthew--what does he think is the one thing Fedora should deliver if it could deliver one thing perfectly. M From mwebbink at redhat.com Mon May 15 17:31:46 2006 From: mwebbink at redhat.com (Mark Webbink) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 13:31:46 -0400 Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: References: <1147711584.10251.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4468B609.8010206@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4468BB02.4030505@redhat.com> Unless it is already in the kernel, no, it doesn't count. Now, if we able to push it into the upstream kernel, it would eventually be covered. Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: >On Mon, 15 May 2006, Mark Webbink wrote: > > > >>If it is not already in one of the protected OIN packages, I suspect it >>will be challenging to get it included. >> >> > >Well, technically, it's functionality that *could* be included in the >Linux kernel, but isn't. Does that count? > >--g > >--------------------------------------------------------------- >Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Foundation || fedoraproject.org >Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors >--------------------------------------------------------------- > >_______________________________________________ >fedora-advisory-board mailing list >fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wtogami at redhat.com Mon May 15 17:35:23 2006 From: wtogami at redhat.com (Warren Togami) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 13:35:23 -0400 Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: <4468BB02.4030505@redhat.com> References: <1147711584.10251.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4468B609.8010206@redhat.com> <4468BB02.4030505@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4468BBDB.8020201@redhat.com> Mark Webbink wrote: > Unless it is already in the kernel, no, it doesn't count. Now, if we > able to push it into the upstream kernel, it would eventually be covered. > NTFS has been in the upstream kernel for years now. We just don't build in our binary kernel RPMS. Warren Togami wtogami at redhat.com From mspevack at redhat.com Mon May 15 17:39:02 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 13:39:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: <200605151639.k4FGd9sa018992@ludwig-alpha.unil.ch> References: <200605151639.k4FGd9sa018992@ludwig-alpha.unil.ch> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 May 2006, Christian.Iseli at licr.org wrote: > What percentage of R&D spending and maintenance spending goes into FC ? > What's the outlook for the next couple years ? That's a good point -- I'd expand it to "how do you see Fedora's role within Red Hat evolving over the next few years, from an R&D perspective and also a resource perspective?" > What kind of commitment to FE infrastructure can we get, in terms of > - bandwidth > - Fedora project hosting > - build systems > - mailing lists archiving and searching > - whole repo archiving and distribution ? I don't think we need to bring this specifically to Matthew. I see this along the lines of -- the Board continues to make sure Fedora has the resources that it needs. If we don't have those resources, it's up to me to make the case to get them, and then we do. We should implement the things that we thing are worthwhile, and when we run out of space to put it, then we point to it and say "look at all this good stuff we've done, give us more resources" and we get them. > Any inclination on the split Core / Extras ? Matthew has heard to pitch regarding bridging the gap between Core and Extras, and he is supportive of the direction that the Board and the community want to take. Still, it wouldn't surprise me if this topic came up to some extent in our call. > Any new architectures planed (Itanium, SPARC, ...) for FC ? That's up to fedora-devel and the community. We can expand to whatever architectures we are able and willing to support. -- Max Spevack + http://people.redhat.com/mspevack/ + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From mspevack at redhat.com Mon May 15 17:50:54 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 13:50:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: <4468B4A5.1010408@redhat.com> References: <4468B4A5.1010408@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 May 2006, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > I think that I would like to hear a couple of things from Matthew: > > 1. His unvarnished opinion on where he thinks that Fedora fits into Red > Hat's strategy. > > 2. His level of commitment in allowing us to drive changes inside of > Engineering as require to drive our larger goal of opening up the > distribution to a higher level of community involvement. > > 3. From where he sits where we could improve what we could be doing. > Looking for feedback. All great points. I've heard some of this in my own meetings with him (in which we discuss Fedora and I get his feedback on how I'm doing in my position), but I think it's very important that the Board can hear these things first hand as well, without them coming through me. I'll be sending him a note later today with a summary of the things that have cropped up on this thread, and also a general discussion of what I'm hoping he'll talk about tomorrow. --Max -- Max Spevack + http://people.redhat.com/mspevack/ + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From chitlesh at fedoraproject.org Mon May 15 18:22:41 2006 From: chitlesh at fedoraproject.org (Chitlesh GOORAH) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 20:22:41 +0200 Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: References: <4468B4A5.1010408@redhat.com> Message-ID: <13dbfe4f0605151122q303620a8x57a79f6f123f8f71@mail.gmail.com> Hello, I would like to hear more about RH's participation&assistance in terms of marketing Fedora on (WorldWide) events. At Linuxtag in Wiesbaden for example, RH didn't have its own booth, so they sticked on the Fedora booth. Personnaly I think it was a great idea, to have both community and RH presenting Fedora in Fedora T-shirt (with RH thin-clients and tables). What if RH's had his own booth in this case? Will it be different ? We were not lucky enough to have a FUDCon there in Wiesbaden for some misunderstandings between members and financial related issues. How far will RH provide us at least with suitable elements to present (spread the word) Fedora for those you _want_ to participate(/create) in events worldwide in terms of RH's influence to settle any registration requirements ? For bandwidth: will the Kadischi community have the right to build THE official livecd(when ready) for public download? or RH folks will do it ? If the community builds , will their test releases be hosted on official Fedora mirrors ? regards, Chitlesh GOORAH -- http://clunixchit.blogspot.com From bob at bobjensen.com Mon May 15 18:28:07 2006 From: bob at bobjensen.com (Robert 'Bob' Jensen) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 13:28:07 -0500 Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: <1147713926.8578.15.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> References: <200605151705.k4FH5MXS019332@ludwig-alpha.unil.ch> <4468B65A.4030605@redhat.com> <4468B6F1.5010906@redhat.com> <1147713926.8578.15.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <4468C837.6060609@bobjensen.com> Jesse Keating wrote: > > What about 'How does he feel about creating variant Fedora distributions > that use the Fedora name and logo (built from Fedora binary bits)? And > further more, opensourcing the tools we use internally to create our > variant of Fedora?' > This is a valid question for not only the CEO but also for this board. In the next two weeks the Fedora Unity Project is planning on releasing its first respin for FC5 + Updates. One thing we would like to know as we move forward is can it still be called Fedora? Do we have to call it something else, and just hint as to what it is? Maybe I should bring this to the board first. -- Robert 'Bob' Jensen Fedora Unity Project http://fedoraunity.org/ From wtogami at redhat.com Mon May 15 18:40:04 2006 From: wtogami at redhat.com (Warren Togami) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 14:40:04 -0400 Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: <4468C837.6060609@bobjensen.com> References: <200605151705.k4FH5MXS019332@ludwig-alpha.unil.ch> <4468B65A.4030605@redhat.com> <4468B6F1.5010906@redhat.com> <1147713926.8578.15.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <4468C837.6060609@bobjensen.com> Message-ID: <4468CB04.1030201@redhat.com> Robert 'Bob' Jensen wrote: > Jesse Keating wrote: >> >> What about 'How does he feel about creating variant Fedora distributions >> that use the Fedora name and logo (built from Fedora binary bits)? And >> further more, opensourcing the tools we use internally to create our >> variant of Fedora?' >> > > This is a valid question for not only the CEO but also for this board. > > In the next two weeks the Fedora Unity Project is planning on releasing > its first respin for FC5 + Updates. One thing we would like to know as > we move forward is can it still be called Fedora? Do we have to call it > something else, and just hint as to what it is? Maybe I should bring > this to the board first. For both this and the kadischi question, this relies largely on the unresolved questions surrounding the Fedora trademark and logo. /me kicks Greg a little harder to get answers on that. =) Warren Togami wtogami at redhat.com From mwebbink at redhat.com Mon May 15 18:44:07 2006 From: mwebbink at redhat.com (Mark Webbink) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 14:44:07 -0400 Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: <4468CB04.1030201@redhat.com> References: <200605151705.k4FH5MXS019332@ludwig-alpha.unil.ch> <4468B65A.4030605@redhat.com> <4468B6F1.5010906@redhat.com> <1147713926.8578.15.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <4468C837.6060609@bobjensen.com> <4468CB04.1030201@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4468CBF7.8090107@redhat.com> And trademark questions should be directed to me, not Matthew. Warren Togami wrote: > Robert 'Bob' Jensen wrote: > >> Jesse Keating wrote: >> >>> >>> What about 'How does he feel about creating variant Fedora >>> distributions >>> that use the Fedora name and logo (built from Fedora binary bits)? And >>> further more, opensourcing the tools we use internally to create our >>> variant of Fedora?' >>> >> >> This is a valid question for not only the CEO but also for this board. >> >> In the next two weeks the Fedora Unity Project is planning on >> releasing its first respin for FC5 + Updates. One thing we would like >> to know as we move forward is can it still be called Fedora? Do we >> have to call it something else, and just hint as to what it is? Maybe >> I should bring this to the board first. > > > For both this and the kadischi question, this relies largely on the > unresolved questions surrounding the Fedora trademark and logo. > > /me kicks Greg a little harder to get answers on that. =) > > Warren Togami > wtogami at redhat.com > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gdk at redhat.com Mon May 15 18:45:22 2006 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 14:45:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: <4468CBF7.8090107@redhat.com> References: <200605151705.k4FH5MXS019332@ludwig-alpha.unil.ch> <4468B65A.4030605@redhat.com> <4468B6F1.5010906@redhat.com> <1147713926.8578.15.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <4468C837.6060609@bobjensen.com> <4468CB04.1030201@redhat.com> <4468CBF7.8090107@redhat.com> Message-ID: > > For both this and the kadischi question, this relies largely on the > > unresolved questions surrounding the Fedora trademark and logo. > > > > /me kicks Greg a little harder to get answers on that. =) > > > > Warren Togami > > wtogami at redhat.com Don't kick me, dude. Kick the board. :) --g --------------------------------------------------------------- Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Foundation || fedoraproject.org Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors --------------------------------------------------------------- From chitlesh at fedoraproject.org Mon May 15 18:51:30 2006 From: chitlesh at fedoraproject.org (Chitlesh GOORAH) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 20:51:30 +0200 Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: <4468CBF7.8090107@redhat.com> References: <200605151705.k4FH5MXS019332@ludwig-alpha.unil.ch> <4468B65A.4030605@redhat.com> <4468B6F1.5010906@redhat.com> <1147713926.8578.15.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <4468C837.6060609@bobjensen.com> <4468CB04.1030201@redhat.com> <4468CBF7.8090107@redhat.com> Message-ID: <13dbfe4f0605151151y72bf6ff0mef7675718d03587d@mail.gmail.com> On 5/15/06, Mark Webbink wrote: > And trademark questions should be directed to me, not Matthew. Hello Once Ive got some time _left_, I would like to work with you (Mark) and Greg to establish good guidelines for Fedora Trademarks issues with Kadischi. for the mean time, I have this: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Kadischi/Legal Chitlesh Goorah -- http://clunixchit.blogspot.com From smooge at gmail.com Mon May 15 18:53:51 2006 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 12:53:51 -0600 Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: <1147714106.8136.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1147714106.8136.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <80d7e4090605151153g33e1756mcb2c826c6c7b62c1@mail.gmail.com> On 5/15/06, Michael Tiemann wrote: > On Sun, 2006-05-14 at 16:20 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: > > Howdy folks, > > > > The Fedora Project Board meets next Tuesday (5/16), and Matthew Szulik > > (Red Hat CEO) is scheduled to be in on the meeting. > > > > I've asked the board members to think about some of the topics they'd like > > to discuss with Matthew, but I wanted to throw it out to this list in > > full. What are some of the things you'd all like to see discussed? > > My question would be: If Fedora could do one thing perfectly, what would > it be? I pose that question to the FAB--how would you justify that > specific achievable goal as the highest priority to Matthew, and I'd > pose that question to Matthew--what does he think is the one thing > Fedora should deliver if it could deliver one thing perfectly. > Hi Tim, I am a little confused by the question. One perfection is pretty much impossible, and two every engineer wants everything to be perfect. That usually causes a lot more headaches as whenever the word "perfect" comes up people expect/push for it to happen. It also seems to be the deeper reason for people's disgruntled-ness if they do not achieve it. Engineers seem to be highly disgruntled if things are 99.997% there, and less so if they are only 60% there. In trying to think of one thing that I would like perfectly.. I ended up realizing that there were many things that were outside of perfection. 1) A regularly released distribution with the latest tools is tied in with every outside project (GNOME, KDE, ALSA, kernel, etc) and with show schedules conferences etc for developers. 2) Cleanly resolving and closing all bugs of the previous release is tied also with outside projects as many of the bugs that are seen go upstream. 3) Providing a perfectly documented system relies on the above two questions (what is in the release, and what bugs were fixed or noted.) etc. I am probably overanalyzing the question. I can see a list of things that RH-Fedora does well at 68%, and some stuff at 95%, and maybe a little at 99%. My view has been that Fedora should focus on the 80-20 rule per release. If 80% of the population is happy with the release and the 20 % are being looked at in the next release, we should be happy. What I would like to have happen from the board and management (though they may be outside of the control of both). 1) Not have the project leader of the month... as seemed to be the outside view of the project for the last ~2 years. 2) Some official listing of 'long-term' (2-3 years) support for Fedora. Red Hat has a good history of thinking on its feet and looking at projects, acquisitions, etc and going "what the f* were we thinking?" and closing them down before they became a long term liability. This has been a good thing for the long term viability of Red Hat, but has a bad side effect in that people on the outside 'selling' Fedora have to deal with the "Well how long is Red Hat going to support this thing, this time?" -- Stephen J Smoogen. CSIRT/Linux System Administrator From bob at bobjensen.com Mon May 15 19:05:49 2006 From: bob at bobjensen.com (Robert 'Bob' Jensen) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 14:05:49 -0500 Subject: [fab] Fedora Core Updates -- "respins" Message-ID: <4468D10D.2010600@bobjensen.com> At the Fedora Unity Project we have begun scripting the creation of updated ISO images for FC5, we are testing what we hope to be our first public release this week. We have some questions related to what is acceptable naming, our current images are named the same as the original release with our project name and the date of the snapshot appended, for example the original is FC-5-i386-DVD.iso and our's reflects the may 12 snapshot date FC-5-i386-DVD-Unity-20060512.iso. It was our original goal to call these resulting images "Fedora Core Respins by Fedora Unity." Is this flying to close to the source? Second question comes to infrastructure, are there any hardware or bandwidth resources available to the community at large? Using our group as an example, we are a small group that is funding all of our adventures out of our own pockets. Hosting something like and updated ISO would break us and cripple our connections making bittorrent the only option. -- Robert 'Bob' Jensen Fedora Unity Project http://fedoraunity.org/ From tiemann at redhat.com Mon May 15 19:11:18 2006 From: tiemann at redhat.com (Michael Tiemann) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 15:11:18 -0400 Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: <80d7e4090605151153g33e1756mcb2c826c6c7b62c1@mail.gmail.com> References: <1147714106.8136.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> <80d7e4090605151153g33e1756mcb2c826c6c7b62c1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1147720279.8136.61.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2006-05-15 at 12:53 -0600, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > On 5/15/06, Michael Tiemann wrote: > > On Sun, 2006-05-14 at 16:20 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: > > > Howdy folks, > > > > > > The Fedora Project Board meets next Tuesday (5/16), and Matthew Szulik > > > (Red Hat CEO) is scheduled to be in on the meeting. > > > > > > I've asked the board members to think about some of the topics they'd like > > > to discuss with Matthew, but I wanted to throw it out to this list in > > > full. What are some of the things you'd all like to see discussed? > > > > My question would be: If Fedora could do one thing perfectly, what would > > it be? I pose that question to the FAB--how would you justify that > > specific achievable goal as the highest priority to Matthew, and I'd > > pose that question to Matthew--what does he think is the one thing > > Fedora should deliver if it could deliver one thing perfectly. > > > > Hi Tim, I am a little confused by the question. One perfection is > pretty much impossible, and two every engineer wants everything to be > perfect. Um...I'm Michael, not Tim. But disregarding that small imperfection... In my opinion, one of the most important things Fedora provides is a genuine platform for user-driven innovation. I believe that Fedora's role in the SE Linux story was about as perfect as one could hope for (even when SE Linux had to be disabled because Strict Policy Is Not For Everybody (tm)). However, Fedora is not the platform of choice for innovating on: * Linux Audio * GIS system development * 3D content generation and distribution to name a few. But is user-driven innovation the one thing that we should be most religious about? Or should it be internationalization? In that context we could measure: what percentage of i18n and l10n work was done first and/or best via Fedora? I actually suspect quite a lot. I believe that Ubunutu's popularity is due, in part, to the fact that they have communicated clearly what people can expect AND THEN DELIVER ON THOSE EXPECTATIONS. The question I guess I'm driving at is: what are the most important (and distinguishing) expectations we can (1) set and (2) deliver on? M From wtogami at redhat.com Mon May 15 19:14:51 2006 From: wtogami at redhat.com (Warren Togami) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 15:14:51 -0400 Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: <1147720279.8136.61.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1147714106.8136.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> <80d7e4090605151153g33e1756mcb2c826c6c7b62c1@mail.gmail.com> <1147720279.8136.61.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4468D32B.50306@redhat.com> Michael Tiemann wrote: > I believe that Ubunutu's popularity is due, in part, to the fact that > they have communicated clearly what people can expect AND THEN DELIVER > ON THOSE EXPECTATIONS. The question I guess I'm driving at is: what are > the most important (and distinguishing) expectations we can (1) set and > (2) deliver on? > They also did a better job in talking to the community, and providing infrastructure for the community to form problem-specific group organizations. Still plenty of work to do, but we've been catching up on these fronts lately. Warren From mspevack at redhat.com Mon May 15 19:20:19 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 15:20:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: <4468C837.6060609@bobjensen.com> References: <200605151705.k4FH5MXS019332@ludwig-alpha.unil.ch> <4468B65A.4030605@redhat.com> <4468B6F1.5010906@redhat.com> <1147713926.8578.15.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <4468C837.6060609@bobjensen.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 May 2006, Robert 'Bob' Jensen wrote: > Jesse Keating wrote: >> >> What about 'How does he feel about creating variant Fedora distributions >> that use the Fedora name and logo (built from Fedora binary bits)? And >> further more, opensourcing the tools we use internally to create our >> variant of Fedora?' >> > > This is a valid question for not only the CEO but also for this board. > > In the next two weeks the Fedora Unity Project is planning on releasing its > first respin for FC5 + Updates. One thing we would like to know as we move > forward is can it still be called Fedora? Do we have to call it something > else, and just hint as to what it is? Maybe I should bring this to the board > first. Mark is on this list. We should be able to get his legal viewpoint quite easily. FC5 + Updates is all packages that live under the "Fedora" blessing. I'd like for us to be able to use the official Fedora logo on it -- if we call it Fedora Core 5, Update 1 or something else -- that naming is something we can work on. Effectively, aren't we giving an updated snapshot of FC5 -- the one that people would get if the installed FC5 Gold and then ran yum update? So we're saving people time/bandwidth, and they get the same bits. I want to call that Fedora. -- Max Spevack + http://people.redhat.com/mspevack/ + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From bob at bobjensen.com Mon May 15 19:28:18 2006 From: bob at bobjensen.com (Robert 'Bob' Jensen) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 14:28:18 -0500 Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: References: <200605151705.k4FH5MXS019332@ludwig-alpha.unil.ch> <4468B65A.4030605@redhat.com> <4468B6F1.5010906@redhat.com> <1147713926.8578.15.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <4468C837.6060609@bobjensen.com> Message-ID: <4468D652.80100@bobjensen.com> Max Spevack wrote: > On Mon, 15 May 2006, Robert 'Bob' Jensen wrote: >> >> In the next two weeks the Fedora Unity Project is planning on >> releasing its first respin for FC5 + Updates. One thing we would like >> to know as we move forward is can it still be called Fedora? Do we >> have to call it something else, and just hint as to what it is? Maybe >> I should bring this to the board first. > > Mark is on this list. We should be able to get his legal viewpoint > quite easily. > > FC5 + Updates is all packages that live under the "Fedora" blessing. > > I'd like for us to be able to use the official Fedora logo on it -- if > we call it Fedora Core 5, Update 1 or something else -- that naming is > something we can work on. > > Effectively, aren't we giving an updated snapshot of FC5 -- the one that > people would get if the installed FC5 Gold and then ran yum update? So > we're saving people time/bandwidth, and they get the same bits. I want > to call that Fedora. > I have split this off in to a new topic. Yes our point of view on this is that it is still Fedora Core just at a different point in time than the "official/formal" release. We are adding nothing that does not come from Updates, and we are only using the tools that are available from Core to produce the result. -- Robert 'Bob' Jensen Fedora Unity Project http://fedoraunity.org/ From smooge at gmail.com Mon May 15 19:37:03 2006 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 13:37:03 -0600 Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: <1147720279.8136.61.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1147714106.8136.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> <80d7e4090605151153g33e1756mcb2c826c6c7b62c1@mail.gmail.com> <1147720279.8136.61.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <80d7e4090605151237r645d399cod48458c29d62a6c@mail.gmail.com> On 5/15/06, Michael Tiemann wrote: > On Mon, 2006-05-15 at 12:53 -0600, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > > On 5/15/06, Michael Tiemann wrote: > > > On Sun, 2006-05-14 at 16:20 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: > > Hi Tim, I am a little confused by the question. One perfection is > > pretty much impossible, and two every engineer wants everything to be > > perfect. > > Um...I'm Michael, not Tim. But disregarding that small imperfection... > Syn Ack. My brains are filled with juniper pollen it would seem... I confused you with Tim Krauskopf, the CTO I had at Spyglass who looked a lot like you. My apologies. > In my opinion, one of the most important things Fedora provides is a > genuine platform for user-driven innovation. I believe that Fedora's > role in the SE Linux story was about as perfect as one could hope for > (even when SE Linux had to be disabled because Strict Policy Is Not For > Everybody (tm)). However, Fedora is not the platform of choice for > innovating on: > > * Linux Audio > * GIS system development > * 3D content generation and distribution > > to name a few. But is user-driven innovation the one thing that we > should be most religious about? Or should it be internationalization? > In that context we could measure: what percentage of i18n and l10n work > was done first and/or best via Fedora? I actually suspect quite a lot. > > I believe that Ubunutu's popularity is due, in part, to the fact that > they have communicated clearly what people can expect AND THEN DELIVER > ON THOSE EXPECTATIONS. The question I guess I'm driving at is: what are > the most important (and distinguishing) expectations we can (1) set and > (2) deliver on? > That and Ubuntu has a cool breaking all the rules aspect. They are the OS that every mom warns their daughter about, and the fact that they ended up actually showing up on time with the spiffy HarleyDavidson(TM) chopper was added icing. Fedora(TM) has a more blue-collar Ford(TM) 4 door sedan to it. It gets the kids to the soccer game and can get reasonable gas mileage to it. However, its not what was considered a 'sexy' vehicle compared to the chopper (though better than the Chevy(TM) station wagon that RHEL is.) [Ok my allergy medicine is probably kicking in]. What expectations would I wish to set and deliver on? I would continue on what was seen on the Selinux front: Security and configuration... very standard stuff but things that people look for in Fedora. People here use Fedora for 'next-generation' development of stuff.. deploy 200 desktops, or a cluster, etc with Fed Core 5 and use RHEL-5 as the long term supported product when it comes out. -- Stephen J Smoogen. CSIRT/Linux System Administrator From mspevack at redhat.com Mon May 15 19:42:10 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 15:42:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: <80d7e4090605151153g33e1756mcb2c826c6c7b62c1@mail.gmail.com> References: <1147714106.8136.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> <80d7e4090605151153g33e1756mcb2c826c6c7b62c1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 May 2006, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > 1) Not have the project leader of the month... as seemed to be the > outside view of the project for the last ~2 years. I hope that's not the case either. If there's someone new sitting in my chair next year, it means that I will have failed the Fedora Project and Red Hat both. My job is to make sure that the Fedora Board does what's in the best interests of Fedora. In addition, it is expected that a fair amount of actually *doing* that stuff will fall on me. But it's the entire Board's responsibility. And f-a-b is the first line at which we should be held accountable. All of us are accountable to the community. Some of us are also accountable to Red Hat. In my particular case, the things that Red Hat hold me accountable for and the things that the community holds me accountable for are the same thing. -- Max Spevack + http://people.redhat.com/mspevack/ + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org Tue May 16 00:21:46 2006 From: jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org (Josh Boyer) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 19:21:46 -0500 Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: <4468B4A5.1010408@redhat.com> References: <4468B4A5.1010408@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1147738906.2512.150.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> On Mon, 2006-05-15 at 13:04 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > Max Spevack wrote: > > > > Nothing? Someone's gotta have some Fedora-related topics that you'd > > like the guy who runs Red Hat to comment on. > > > > I think that I would like to hear a couple of things from Matthew: > > 1. His unvarnished opinion on where he thinks that Fedora fits into Red > Hat's strategy. > > 2. His level of commitment in allowing us to drive changes inside of > Engineering as require to drive our larger goal of opening up the > distribution to a higher level of community involvement. > > 3. From where he sits where we could improve what we could be doing. > Looking for feedback. +1 (or 3 depending on how you look at it) josh From jaboutboul at speakeasy.net Tue May 16 03:22:44 2006 From: jaboutboul at speakeasy.net (Jack Aboutboul) Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 23:22:44 -0400 Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: <1147720279.8136.61.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1147714106.8136.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> <80d7e4090605151153g33e1756mcb2c826c6c7b62c1@mail.gmail.com> <1147720279.8136.61.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1147749764.31983.181.camel@deepfort> On Mon, 2006-05-15 at 15:11 -0400, Michael Tiemann wrote: > I believe that Ubunutu's popularity is due, in part, to the fact that > they have communicated clearly what people can expect AND THEN DELIVER > ON THOSE EXPECTATIONS. The question I guess I'm driving at is: what are > the most important (and distinguishing) expectations we can (1) set and > (2) deliver on? In response to what Michael mentioned, aside from the user driven innovation, I think the one area that Fedora as a distro should be innovating in, above anything else is hardware compatibility. We have seen live examples, like the guy at LinuxWorld who won the Ferrari laptop and rushed over to us to install and who's X would not work, not matter how hard we tried. It might have left a bit of a bad aftertaste in his mouth. Also, has anyone seen this article: http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB114727136610348924-Et3a0yO82d_xJdMWN_y8xKXLl7c_20060521.html?mod=blogs ?? That's the one I was interviewed for a few weeks back. He makes some good points. We should definitely work on this, because the only way we can become a platform for user innovation, is if people can actually use it! Jack From notting at redhat.com Tue May 16 15:55:55 2006 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 11:55:55 -0400 Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: <4468BB02.4030505@redhat.com> References: <1147711584.10251.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4468B609.8010206@redhat.com> <4468BB02.4030505@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20060516155554.GC13945@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Mark Webbink (mwebbink at redhat.com) said: > Unless it is already in the kernel, no, it doesn't count. Now, if we > able to push it into the upstream kernel, it would eventually be covered. It is (and has been) in the upstream kernel. We just don't build it. Bill From gdk at redhat.com Tue May 16 22:17:11 2006 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 18:17:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Pimping Fluendo for MP3 support Message-ID: Forwarding this internal RH conversation. Maybe it's time to temper our "Ogg uber alles" position a bit. Maybe it's time to link to Fluendo prominently from the default desktop -- have a web page on the desktop entitled "Click here for MP3 support". Or similarly, "Click here for Java support". And then we use the page for educational purposes. "Dearest user, MP3 and/or Java are fascist, but if you want to succumb to fascism for the sake of convenience, by all means, go ahead, and here's how to do it legally." We would be more temperate in our messaging, of course. Simple, legal, solves a lot of people's problems. At the cost of a bit of moral high ground, but if we can educate while solving the user's problem, maybe that's not a bad tradeoff after all. Somnething to be said for a good bully pulpit. --g --------------------------------------------------------------- Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Foundation || fedoraproject.org Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors --------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Forwarded message ---------- On Mon, 2006-05-15 at 15:07 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Jon Masters (jcm at redhat.com) said: > > If I install Ubuntu, I can trivially get to plugins that add missing > > functionality via repositories that I hosted overseas and this is well > > known. With Fedora, it's well known too within a certain crowd, but you > > could publicly *advertise* a $20 plugin and deliver it easily enough. > > http://www.fluendo.com/products.php?product=plugins When I said others do this already, I was refering to the likes of Fluendo - who do an excellent job too. IMO we should be pointing people at them or reselling and cutting them a deal out of it, but people should be able to go to redhat.com/fedoraproject.org and click through to a point that they've got a "working" system after paying $20. It should be so fool proof that anyone writing stories about us has no reason not to have found the updates - so they install the software, get a warning on first login about patented/encumbered technology and have a simple option to "fix" that. Then you'll get much more positive stories. Jon. From jkeating at redhat.com Wed May 17 01:27:40 2006 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 21:27:40 -0400 Subject: [fab] Pimping Fluendo for MP3 support In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1147829260.7403.2.camel@ender> On Tue, 2006-05-16 at 18:17 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > Simple, legal, solves a lot of people's problems. At the cost of a > bit of > moral high ground, but if we can educate while solving the user's > problem, > maybe that's not a bad tradeoff after all. Somnething to be said for > a > good bully pulpit. > I'm for it. +1 -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From katzj at redhat.com Wed May 17 02:38:27 2006 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 22:38:27 -0400 Subject: [fab] Pimping Fluendo for MP3 support In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1147833507.2825.7.camel@aglarond.local> On Tue, 2006-05-16 at 18:17 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > Simple, legal, solves a lot of people's problems. At the cost of a bit of > moral high ground, but if we can educate while solving the user's problem, > maybe that's not a bad tradeoff after all. Somnething to be said for a > good bully pulpit. And if we give in here, where does it end? Why not ship freely redistributable binary apps if they "solve user problems"? And then, maybe next is binary X drivers. Our ideals and morals are really the thing that sets us apart. Once free always free doesn't just mean that you don't have to pay. Jeremy From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Wed May 17 03:07:56 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 23:07:56 -0400 Subject: [fab] Pimping Fluendo for MP3 support In-Reply-To: <1147833507.2825.7.camel@aglarond.local> References: <1147833507.2825.7.camel@aglarond.local> Message-ID: <1147835277.7734.5.camel@cutter> On Tue, 2006-05-16 at 22:38 -0400, Jeremy Katz wrote: > On Tue, 2006-05-16 at 18:17 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > Simple, legal, solves a lot of people's problems. At the cost of a bit of > > moral high ground, but if we can educate while solving the user's problem, > > maybe that's not a bad tradeoff after all. Somnething to be said for a > > good bully pulpit. > > And if we give in here, where does it end? Why not ship freely > redistributable binary apps if they "solve user problems"? And then, > maybe next is binary X drivers. > > Our ideals and morals are really the thing that sets us apart. Once > free always free doesn't just mean that you don't have to pay. > I think it is telling that debian recently sold out for java. It seems like fedora is the only truly free distribution left. I would like it to remain that way. -sv From jkeating at redhat.com Wed May 17 12:59:46 2006 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 08:59:46 -0400 Subject: [fab] Pimping Fluendo for MP3 support In-Reply-To: <1147835277.7734.5.camel@cutter> References: <1147833507.2825.7.camel@aglarond.local> <1147835277.7734.5.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1147870786.7403.7.camel@ender> On Tue, 2006-05-16 at 23:07 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > > I think it is telling that debian recently sold out for java. > > It seems like fedora is the only truly free distribution left. > > I would like it to remain that way. If we don't put it on the desktop, can we at least put it in some sort of official FAQ? Maybe the release notes (god knows nobody reads those...) Honestly I liked it as a "looking for mp3 suppor?" link that leads you to our page that tells users WHY we don't include mp3, and why we feel they should be using ogg. List a bunch of ogg resources, etc, etc.. Then at the very very bottom we could have a link out to fluendo. So we're taking the opportunity to educate users before handing them the bottle on which to suck on. -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed May 17 14:35:36 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 07:35:36 -0700 Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: <4468B243.6050902@redhat.com> References: <200605151639.k4FGd9sa018992@ludwig-alpha.unil.ch> <4468B243.6050902@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1147876537.2457.406.camel@erato.phig.org> On Mon, 2006-05-15 at 12:54 -0400, Warren Togami wrote: > Christian.Iseli at licr.org wrote: > > Any inclination on RHAS Extras ? > > While I personally would want this, this is outside the scope of Fedora. Kind of, sort of. About six weeks ago, we started the discussion of Fedora Extras allowing for multiple maintainers for packages who could then do multiple distributions for binary packages. With that basic idea in place, what I called "Enterprise Extras" becomes possible. Repackaging maintainers (CentOS et al) could become contributors here, and get those packages in their flavor, just as Red Hat can make them appear for Enterprise Linux. I haven't had an opportunity to continue pursuing this, and FESCo has been busy with other stuff. But if anyone wants to help continue this idea forward ... - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Editor * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Fedora Documentation Project http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject Learn. Network. Experience open source. Red Hat Summit Nashville | May 30 - June 2, 2006 Learn more: http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed May 17 14:38:03 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 07:38:03 -0700 Subject: [fab] Pimping Fluendo for MP3 support In-Reply-To: <1147870786.7403.7.camel@ender> References: <1147833507.2825.7.camel@aglarond.local> <1147835277.7734.5.camel@cutter> <1147870786.7403.7.camel@ender> Message-ID: <1147876684.2457.409.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2006-05-17 at 08:59 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Tue, 2006-05-16 at 23:07 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > > > > I think it is telling that debian recently sold out for java. > > > > It seems like fedora is the only truly free distribution left. > > > > I would like it to remain that way. > > If we don't put it on the desktop, can we at least put it in some sort > of official FAQ? Maybe the release notes (god knows nobody reads > those...) Been in since FC5 test 1, iirc: http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/release-notes/fc5/release-notes-ISO/#id3145731 - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Editor * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Fedora Documentation Project http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject Learn. Network. Experience open source. Red Hat Summit Nashville | May 30 - June 2, 2006 Learn more: http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed May 17 14:42:49 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 07:42:49 -0700 Subject: [fab] Fedora Core Updates -- "respins" In-Reply-To: <4468D10D.2010600@bobjensen.com> References: <4468D10D.2010600@bobjensen.com> Message-ID: <1147876970.2457.414.camel@erato.phig.org> On Mon, 2006-05-15 at 14:05 -0500, Robert 'Bob' Jensen wrote: > At the Fedora Unity Project we have begun scripting the creation of > updated ISO images for FC5, we are testing what we hope to be our first > public release this week. +1 > We have some questions related to what is acceptable naming, our current > images are named the same as the original release with our project name > and the date of the snapshot appended, for example the original is > FC-5-i386-DVD.iso and our's reflects the may 12 snapshot date > FC-5-i386-DVD-Unity-20060512.iso. It was our original goal to call these > resulting images "Fedora Core Respins by Fedora Unity." Is this flying > to close to the source? > > Second question comes to infrastructure, are there any hardware or > bandwidth resources available to the community at large? Using our group > as an example, we are a small group that is funding all of our > adventures out of our own pockets. Hosting something like and updated > ISO would break us and cripple our connections making bittorrent the > only option. Just in case we cannot arrange formal mirror space, I recommend that we lean hard on Fedora contributors to share some of their own bandwidth. I pledge at least 100 Kb of torrent upload (about a sixth of my upload rate). Then you an use your bandwidth to deliver the ISO via a secret URL directly to the torrent hosts. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Editor * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Fedora Documentation Project http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject Learn. Network. Experience open source. Red Hat Summit Nashville | May 30 - June 2, 2006 Learn more: http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jkeating at redhat.com Wed May 17 14:48:44 2006 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 10:48:44 -0400 Subject: [fab] Governing body to handle package guideline issues Message-ID: <1147877324.5295.6.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> Now that package guidelines are more than just an Extras thing, and changes to said guidelines could effect Core package quality, it had been proposed that a new 'governing' body be generated to oversee / approve / generate changes to the guidelines and such, that consists of more than just Extras folks. I thought I saw some discussion about it in one of the meeting minutes from the Fedora Board, but I haven't seen anything since. Where are we with this, as there are changes that need to be discussed. -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Wed May 17 14:52:03 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 10:52:03 -0400 Subject: [fab] Fedora Core Updates -- "respins" In-Reply-To: <1147876970.2457.414.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <4468D10D.2010600@bobjensen.com> <1147876970.2457.414.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1147877523.10822.3.camel@cutter> On Wed, 2006-05-17 at 07:42 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Mon, 2006-05-15 at 14:05 -0500, Robert 'Bob' Jensen wrote: > > At the Fedora Unity Project we have begun scripting the creation of > > updated ISO images for FC5, we are testing what we hope to be our first > > public release this week. > > +1 > > > We have some questions related to what is acceptable naming, our current > > images are named the same as the original release with our project name > > and the date of the snapshot appended, for example the original is > > FC-5-i386-DVD.iso and our's reflects the may 12 snapshot date > > FC-5-i386-DVD-Unity-20060512.iso. It was our original goal to call these > > resulting images "Fedora Core Respins by Fedora Unity." Is this flying > > to close to the source? > > > > Second question comes to infrastructure, are there any hardware or > > bandwidth resources available to the community at large? Using our group > > as an example, we are a small group that is funding all of our > > adventures out of our own pockets. Hosting something like and updated > > ISO would break us and cripple our connections making bittorrent the > > only option. > > Just in case we cannot arrange formal mirror space, I recommend that we > lean hard on Fedora contributors to share some of their own bandwidth. > I pledge at least 100 Kb of torrent upload (about a sixth of my upload > rate). > > Then you an use your bandwidth to deliver the ISO via a secret URL > directly to the torrent hosts. Torrent is definitely an option and if there are people willing to becareful we can setup things to let other people make the torrents. Just like we did w/some of the gnome people. -sv From gdk at redhat.com Wed May 17 14:52:47 2006 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 10:52:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Pimping Fluendo for MP3 support In-Reply-To: <1147833507.2825.7.camel@aglarond.local> References: <1147833507.2825.7.camel@aglarond.local> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 May 2006, Jeremy Katz wrote: > On Tue, 2006-05-16 at 18:17 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > Simple, legal, solves a lot of people's problems. At the cost of a bit of > > moral high ground, but if we can educate while solving the user's problem, > > maybe that's not a bad tradeoff after all. Somnething to be said for a > > good bully pulpit. > > And if we give in here, where does it end? Why not ship freely > redistributable binary apps if they "solve user problems"? And then, > maybe next is binary X drivers. The slippery slope argument is for suckers. :) I'm not proposing that we "abandon all of our hard-fought moral principles". I am proposing that we make a real effort to educate people, not only about the position we hold, but *why we hold it*. Because to the vast majority of people, our position seems arbitrary and stupid -- which means that we're not doing a good enough job of selling it. What if there were a big link on the default desktop that said "Do you want MP3?" And then the user clicks on a link, and the link tells a story. It tells the whole story about how Fruanhofer/Thomson basically screwed the entire world by suckering engineers into using the MP3 codec, and only *then* charging patent royalties. It also tells the plucky story of a young developer named Monty who decided that MP3 was a bunch of bullshit and came up with his own codecs. It tells you why Fedora chooses those codecs. And then, at the end, it tells you how to get MP3 codecs legally, and urges you to use those codecs to translate all of your MP3 files to OGG. Or would that be "giving in" too much? --g --------------------------------------------------------------- Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Foundation || fedoraproject.org Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors --------------------------------------------------------------- From tcallawa at redhat.com Wed May 17 14:56:37 2006 From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom 'spot' Callaway) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 09:56:37 -0500 Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: <1147876537.2457.406.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <200605151639.k4FGd9sa018992@ludwig-alpha.unil.ch> <4468B243.6050902@redhat.com> <1147876537.2457.406.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1147877797.18341.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2006-05-17 at 07:35 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Mon, 2006-05-15 at 12:54 -0400, Warren Togami wrote: > > Christian.Iseli at licr.org wrote: > > > > Any inclination on RHAS Extras ? > > > > While I personally would want this, this is outside the scope of Fedora. > > Kind of, sort of. > > About six weeks ago, we started the discussion of Fedora Extras allowing > for multiple maintainers for packages who could then do multiple > distributions for binary packages. With that basic idea in place, what > I called "Enterprise Extras" becomes possible. Repackaging maintainers > (CentOS et al) could become contributors here, and get those packages in > their flavor, just as Red Hat can make them appear for Enterprise Linux. I think this is overcomplicating things. We already have package maintainers for a LOT of packages, and we already allow multiple maintainers to share responsibility for package upkeep. What we do not have are branches for RHEL and buildsystem infrastructure to generate these packages for RHEL. We don't know if the Fedora community will see value in managing RHEL branches as well as Fedora branches, given that they may not be using RHEL. It will certainly be more difficult for independent packagers to test RHEL builds locally, since we are not distributing the binaries for RHEL. As much as I'd like to see this, this has a lot of landmines along the path, and we need to be careful not to confuse the Fedora message by mixing in RHEL bits. ~spot -- Tom "spot" Callaway: Red Hat Senior Sales Engineer || GPG ID: 93054260 Fedora Extras Steering Committee Member (RPM Standards and Practices) Aurora Linux Project Leader: http://auroralinux.org Lemurs, llamas, and sparcs, oh my! From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Wed May 17 15:00:07 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 11:00:07 -0400 Subject: [fab] Pimping Fluendo for MP3 support In-Reply-To: References: <1147833507.2825.7.camel@aglarond.local> Message-ID: <1147878007.10822.5.camel@cutter> On Wed, 2006-05-17 at 10:52 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > On Tue, 16 May 2006, Jeremy Katz wrote: > > > On Tue, 2006-05-16 at 18:17 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > > Simple, legal, solves a lot of people's problems. At the cost of a bit of > > > moral high ground, but if we can educate while solving the user's problem, > > > maybe that's not a bad tradeoff after all. Somnething to be said for a > > > good bully pulpit. > > > > And if we give in here, where does it end? Why not ship freely > > redistributable binary apps if they "solve user problems"? And then, > > maybe next is binary X drivers. > > The slippery slope argument is for suckers. :) > > I'm not proposing that we "abandon all of our hard-fought moral > principles". > > I am proposing that we make a real effort to educate people, not only > about the position we hold, but *why we hold it*. Because to the vast > majority of people, our position seems arbitrary and stupid -- which means > that we're not doing a good enough job of selling it. > > What if there were a big link on the default desktop that said "Do you > want MP3?" And then the user clicks on a link, and the link tells a > story. > > It tells the whole story about how Fruanhofer/Thomson basically screwed > the entire world by suckering engineers into using the MP3 codec, and only > *then* charging patent royalties. It also tells the plucky story of a > young developer named Monty who decided that MP3 was a bunch of bullshit > and came up with his own codecs. It tells you why Fedora chooses those > codecs. > > And then, at the end, it tells you how to get MP3 codecs legally, and > urges you to use those codecs to translate all of your MP3 files to OGG. > > Or would that be "giving in" too much? > There's no way we can provide an mp3->ogg translator w/o violating the patent, can we? -sv From tcallawa at redhat.com Wed May 17 15:05:38 2006 From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom 'spot' Callaway) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 10:05:38 -0500 Subject: [fab] Pimping Fluendo for MP3 support In-Reply-To: <1147878007.10822.5.camel@cutter> References: <1147833507.2825.7.camel@aglarond.local> <1147878007.10822.5.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1147878338.18341.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2006-05-17 at 11:00 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > There's no way we can provide an mp3->ogg translator w/o violating the > patent, can we? Nope. We'd need to implement decoder functionality to get it to ogg. ~spot -- Tom "spot" Callaway: Red Hat Senior Sales Engineer || GPG ID: 93054260 Fedora Extras Steering Committee Member (RPM Standards and Practices) Aurora Linux Project Leader: http://auroralinux.org Lemurs, llamas, and sparcs, oh my! From katzj at redhat.com Wed May 17 15:10:11 2006 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 11:10:11 -0400 Subject: [fab] Pimping Fluendo for MP3 support In-Reply-To: References: <1147833507.2825.7.camel@aglarond.local> Message-ID: <1147878611.9390.13.camel@aglarond.local> On Wed, 2006-05-17 at 10:52 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > On Tue, 16 May 2006, Jeremy Katz wrote: > > On Tue, 2006-05-16 at 18:17 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > > Simple, legal, solves a lot of people's problems. At the cost of a bit of > > > moral high ground, but if we can educate while solving the user's problem, > > > maybe that's not a bad tradeoff after all. Somnething to be said for a > > > good bully pulpit. > > > > And if we give in here, where does it end? Why not ship freely > > redistributable binary apps if they "solve user problems"? And then, > > maybe next is binary X drivers. > > The slippery slope argument is for suckers. :) Maybe. It has to be made, though. > I'm not proposing that we "abandon all of our hard-fought moral > principles". > > I am proposing that we make a real effort to educate people, not only > about the position we hold, but *why we hold it*. Because to the vast > majority of people, our position seems arbitrary and stupid -- which means > that we're not doing a good enough job of selling it. > > What if there were a big link on the default desktop that said "Do you > want MP3?" And then the user clicks on a link, and the link tells a > story. Frankly, I don't think they'll read it. Which is a shame, but I don't know how to change habits of users which have existed since the dawn of time. And I also don't think that cluttering the desktop is the way forward (I also expect that cluttering the desktop would be met with cries of anger and pitchforks from the maintainers of the desktop ;) [snip] > And then, at the end, it tells you how to get MP3 codecs legally, and > urges you to use those codecs to translate all of your MP3 files to OGG. Should we point out the quality loss there? > Or would that be "giving in" too much? I think that making some of the legal options (such as Fluendo) more known via things like the wiki makes sense. Putting something on the desktop, on the other hand, is less appealing Jeremy From mspevack at redhat.com Wed May 17 15:10:12 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 11:10:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Governing body to handle package guideline issues In-Reply-To: <1147877324.5295.6.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> References: <1147877324.5295.6.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 May 2006, Jesse Keating wrote: > Now that package guidelines are more than just an Extras thing, and > changes to said guidelines could effect Core package quality, it had > been proposed that a new 'governing' body be generated to oversee / > approve / generate changes to the guidelines and such, that consists of > more than just Extras folks. I thought I saw some discussion about it > in one of the meeting minutes from the Fedora Board, but I haven't seen > anything since. Where are we with this, as there are changes that need > to be discussed. One of the requirements that I heard along the way for the "technical steering comm" was that it be completely balanced between Red Hat representation and community representation. Furthermore, given the current membership of FESCO, it seems like this group could simply be a composed of people already on FESCO, with a clear set of responsibilities given to them. Personally, I don't think this group needs to be some sort of elected body. I think we should be able to pretty easily determine who the right people are, and from that group elect/appoint a leader. Then we just need to make it very clear what the mandate of this group is, give it a wiki page and an email list, and let it go. something like: - make decisions about packaging guidelines for Extras and Core - what else? What do you all think? As this thread moves along and until we make something final, I personally don't have any problem with FESCO handling the things that need to be decided, since the community and Red Hat are both well represented there, and we're likely to cover all of the different viewpoints and needs. Finally, is there a Board member, or someone on this list with the cycles to actually drive the formalization of this group, and get it off the ground? Rex, you own the action item in which we talked about this during a Board meeting. Can you take the lead on moving it along? I'm happy to help, I'm sure others are too. --Max -- Max Spevack + http://people.redhat.com/mspevack/ + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From jkeating at redhat.com Wed May 17 15:20:36 2006 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 11:20:36 -0400 Subject: [fab] Governing body to handle package guideline issues In-Reply-To: References: <1147877324.5295.6.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1147879236.5295.9.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> On Wed, 2006-05-17 at 11:10 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: > Personally, I don't think this group needs to be some sort of elected > body. I think we should be able to pretty easily determine who the right > people are, and from that group elect/appoint a leader. Then we just need > to make it very clear what the mandate of this group is, give it a wiki > page and an email list, and let it go. I agree. > something like: > > - make decisions about packaging guidelines for Extras and Core > - what else? - Be able to actually edit said guidelines - Inform necessary parties that said changes happened - Work with build-sys team when buildsys makes changes to packages in the base build setup (this is the current issue) - Provide a discussion place for such changes - Own a bugzilla or other ticketing item for when people have issues/bugs with the guidelines. -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jkeating at redhat.com Wed May 17 15:22:10 2006 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 11:22:10 -0400 Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: <1147877797.18341.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <200605151639.k4FGd9sa018992@ludwig-alpha.unil.ch> <4468B243.6050902@redhat.com> <1147876537.2457.406.camel@erato.phig.org> <1147877797.18341.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1147879330.5295.11.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> On Wed, 2006-05-17 at 09:56 -0500, Tom 'spot' Callaway wrote: > What we do not have are branches for RHEL and buildsystem infrastructure > to generate these packages for RHEL. We don't know if the Fedora > community will see value in managing RHEL branches as well as Fedora > branches, given that they may not be using RHEL. It will certainly be > more difficult for independent packagers to test RHEL builds locally, > since we are not distributing the binaries for RHEL. Not to mention that RHEL packages have such things as stability, backported security fixes, etc.. things that Extras packages and maintainers don't really worry about now. Not to mention a 7 year lifespan. I really doubt you're going to find an Extras maintainer who would like to volunteer to maintain a piece of software for 7 years. -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From tcallawa at redhat.com Wed May 17 15:23:26 2006 From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom 'spot' Callaway) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 10:23:26 -0500 Subject: [fab] Governing body to handle package guideline issues In-Reply-To: <1147879236.5295.9.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> References: <1147877324.5295.6.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <1147879236.5295.9.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1147879406.18341.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2006-05-17 at 11:20 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Wed, 2006-05-17 at 11:10 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: > > Personally, I don't think this group needs to be some sort of elected > > body. I think we should be able to pretty easily determine who the right > > people are, and from that group elect/appoint a leader. Then we just need > > to make it very clear what the mandate of this group is, give it a wiki > > page and an email list, and let it go. > > I agree. For what its worth, I've been doing this since day one, and I would very much like to continue to be involved with Fedora Packaging. However, I agree that this work needs to be decided upon by a group of people, as opposed to just me (I scale poorly). Heck, we already have our own mailing list, we just never use it. :) ~spot -- Tom "spot" Callaway: Red Hat Senior Sales Engineer || GPG ID: 93054260 Fedora Extras Steering Committee Member (RPM Standards and Practices) Aurora Linux Project Leader: http://auroralinux.org Lemurs, llamas, and sparcs, oh my! From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Wed May 17 15:27:23 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 11:27:23 -0400 Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: <1147879330.5295.11.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> References: <200605151639.k4FGd9sa018992@ludwig-alpha.unil.ch> <4468B243.6050902@redhat.com> <1147876537.2457.406.camel@erato.phig.org> <1147877797.18341.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1147879330.5295.11.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1147879644.10822.8.camel@cutter> On Wed, 2006-05-17 at 11:22 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Wed, 2006-05-17 at 09:56 -0500, Tom 'spot' Callaway wrote: > > What we do not have are branches for RHEL and buildsystem infrastructure > > to generate these packages for RHEL. We don't know if the Fedora > > community will see value in managing RHEL branches as well as Fedora > > branches, given that they may not be using RHEL. It will certainly be > > more difficult for independent packagers to test RHEL builds locally, > > since we are not distributing the binaries for RHEL. > > Not to mention that RHEL packages have such things as stability, > backported security fixes, etc.. things that Extras packages and > maintainers don't really worry about now. Not to mention a 7 year > lifespan. I really doubt you're going to find an Extras maintainer who > would like to volunteer to maintain a piece of software for 7 years. > This is a good reason why multiple package owners is a good thing. -sv From tcallawa at redhat.com Wed May 17 15:25:37 2006 From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom 'spot' Callaway) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 10:25:37 -0500 Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: <1147879330.5295.11.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> References: <200605151639.k4FGd9sa018992@ludwig-alpha.unil.ch> <4468B243.6050902@redhat.com> <1147876537.2457.406.camel@erato.phig.org> <1147877797.18341.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1147879330.5295.11.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1147879537.18341.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2006-05-17 at 11:22 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Wed, 2006-05-17 at 09:56 -0500, Tom 'spot' Callaway wrote: > > What we do not have are branches for RHEL and buildsystem infrastructure > > to generate these packages for RHEL. We don't know if the Fedora > > community will see value in managing RHEL branches as well as Fedora > > branches, given that they may not be using RHEL. It will certainly be > > more difficult for independent packagers to test RHEL builds locally, > > since we are not distributing the binaries for RHEL. > > Not to mention that RHEL packages have such things as stability, > backported security fixes, etc.. things that Extras packages and > maintainers don't really worry about now. Not to mention a 7 year > lifespan. I really doubt you're going to find an Extras maintainer who > would like to volunteer to maintain a piece of software for 7 years. Yep. I agree. I think "RHEL Extras" will have to be something that Red Hat, the corporate devil, will need to be responsible for and driving. That's not to say that we wouldn't permit community members to play in that sandbox, just that it falls well outside the Fedora arena. ~spot -- Tom "spot" Callaway: Red Hat Senior Sales Engineer || GPG ID: 93054260 Fedora Extras Steering Committee Member (RPM Standards and Practices) Aurora Linux Project Leader: http://auroralinux.org Lemurs, llamas, and sparcs, oh my! From jaboutboul at fedoraproject.org Wed May 17 15:26:02 2006 From: jaboutboul at fedoraproject.org (Jack Aboutboul) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 11:26:02 -0400 Subject: [fab] Pimping Fluendo for MP3 support In-Reply-To: <1147878611.9390.13.camel@aglarond.local> References: <1147833507.2825.7.camel@aglarond.local> <1147878611.9390.13.camel@aglarond.local> Message-ID: <1147879562.31983.206.camel@deepfort> On Wed, 2006-05-17 at 11:10 -0400, Jeremy Katz wrote: > I think that making some of the legal options (such as Fluendo) more > known via things like the wiki makes sense. Putting something on the > desktop, on the other hand, is less appealing > I agree with Jeremy and maybe we can still have that page, just not on the desktop, maybe in the apps menu? Alternatively, we can have it hidden somewhere and only by pressing up, down, left, right, a, b, select, start does the user get to it. Sort of reminiscent of those super nintendo days, everyone liked that, didn't they? Jack From gdk at redhat.com Wed May 17 15:59:51 2006 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 11:59:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Pimping Fluendo for MP3 support In-Reply-To: <1147878611.9390.13.camel@aglarond.local> References: <1147833507.2825.7.camel@aglarond.local> <1147878611.9390.13.camel@aglarond.local> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 May 2006, Jeremy Katz wrote: > > What if there were a big link on the default desktop that said "Do you > > want MP3?" And then the user clicks on a link, and the link tells a > > story. > > Frankly, I don't think they'll read it. Which is a shame, but I don't > know how to change habits of users which have existed since the dawn of > time. We'll lose 100% of the users we don't try to convince. If we want to educate people, and maybe change their minds, then we need to fight for it. We say we want to be pure -- but 95% of the people who could be using Fedora don't know or don't care about that purity. > And I also don't think that cluttering the desktop is the way forward (I > also expect that cluttering the desktop would be met with cries of anger > and pitchforks from the maintainers of the desktop ;) Yeah, you're probably right. So maybe it's a default helper app; when you try to play an MP3, it opens up a Firefox page telling the story and pointing to Fluendo. --g --------------------------------------------------------------- Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Foundation || fedoraproject.org Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors --------------------------------------------------------------- From fedora at leemhuis.info Wed May 17 16:34:16 2006 From: fedora at leemhuis.info (Thorsten Leemhuis) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 18:34:16 +0200 Subject: [fab] Governing body to handle package guideline issues In-Reply-To: <1147879236.5295.9.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> References: <1147877324.5295.6.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <1147879236.5295.9.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1147883656.2258.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> Am Mittwoch, den 17.05.2006, 11:20 -0400 schrieb Jesse Keating: > On Wed, 2006-05-17 at 11:10 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: > > Personally, I don't think this group needs to be some sort of elected > > body. I think we should be able to pretty easily determine who the right > > people are, and from that group elect/appoint a leader. Then we just need > > to make it very clear what the mandate of this group is, give it a wiki > > page and an email list, and let it go. > I agree. +1 We just need to make sure that there are always at least one or two people from the actual FESCo in it to simply communication. > > something like: > > > > - make decisions about packaging guidelines for Extras and Core > > - what else? > > - Be able to actually edit said guidelines > - Inform necessary parties that said changes happened - Closely work together with necessary parties > - Work with build-sys team when buildsys makes changes to packages in > the base build setup (this is the current issue) > - Provide a discussion place for such changes > - Own a bugzilla or other ticketing item for when people have > issues/bugs with the guidelines. And Spot is on the top of my wishlist for that group CU thl -- Thorsten Leemhuis From jkeating at redhat.com Wed May 17 16:41:39 2006 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 12:41:39 -0400 Subject: [fab] Governing body to handle package guideline issues In-Reply-To: <1147883656.2258.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1147877324.5295.6.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <1147879236.5295.9.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <1147883656.2258.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1147884099.5295.13.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> On Wed, 2006-05-17 at 18:34 +0200, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > And Spot is on the top of my wishlist for that group +! -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jkeating at redhat.com Wed May 17 16:42:36 2006 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 12:42:36 -0400 Subject: [fab] Governing body to handle package guideline issues In-Reply-To: <1147884099.5295.13.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> References: <1147877324.5295.6.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <1147879236.5295.9.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <1147883656.2258.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1147884099.5295.13.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1147884156.5295.15.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> On Wed, 2006-05-17 at 12:41 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > > And Spot is on the top of my wishlist for that group > > +! Er... +1 I should really stop leaning so heavily on the shift key. -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From laroche at redhat.com Wed May 17 16:48:27 2006 From: laroche at redhat.com (Florian La Roche) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 18:48:27 +0200 Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: <1147879330.5295.11.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> References: <200605151639.k4FGd9sa018992@ludwig-alpha.unil.ch> <4468B243.6050902@redhat.com> <1147876537.2457.406.camel@erato.phig.org> <1147877797.18341.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1147879330.5295.11.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20060517164827.GA17652@dudweiler.stuttgart.redhat.com> > Not to mention that RHEL packages have such things as stability, > backported security fixes, etc.. things that Extras packages and > maintainers don't really worry about now. Not to mention a 7 year > lifespan. I really doubt you're going to find an Extras maintainer who > would like to volunteer to maintain a piece of software for 7 years. I think we should keep the packages moving forward like we currently do for Fedora Extras, but only base the packages ontop of RHEL versus Fedora Core. Though you are right, having RHEL binary packages not available to most maintainers does have quite a few implications. Maybe if the buildsystem would also contain RHEL bits, the porting work over ontop of RHEL would be working ok. regards, Florian La Roche From katzj at redhat.com Wed May 17 16:51:34 2006 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 12:51:34 -0400 Subject: [fab] Governing body to handle package guideline issues In-Reply-To: <1147883656.2258.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1147877324.5295.6.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <1147879236.5295.9.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <1147883656.2258.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1147884694.19174.5.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> On Wed, 2006-05-17 at 18:34 +0200, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > Am Mittwoch, den 17.05.2006, 11:20 -0400 schrieb Jesse Keating: > > On Wed, 2006-05-17 at 11:10 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: > > > Personally, I don't think this group needs to be some sort of elected > > > body. I think we should be able to pretty easily determine who the right > > > people are, and from that group elect/appoint a leader. Then we just need > > > to make it very clear what the mandate of this group is, give it a wiki > > > page and an email list, and let it go. > > I agree. > > +1 > > We just need to make sure that there are always at least one or two > people from the actual FESCo in it to simply communication. While for seeding purposes, this probably makes sense, I would expect (hope?) that over time we're going to have enough different groups that all need to communicate that we'll need to make it so the communication happens without needing to have crossover people in all the groups. This will also let people really pay attention to the things that matter most to them without having to feel torn in 20 different directions. Jeremy From blizzard at redhat.com Wed May 17 17:16:09 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 13:16:09 -0400 Subject: [fab] Fedora Core Updates -- "respins" In-Reply-To: <1147876970.2457.414.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <4468D10D.2010600@bobjensen.com> <1147876970.2457.414.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <446B5A59.4050605@redhat.com> Karsten Wade wrote: >> >> Second question comes to infrastructure, are there any hardware or >> bandwidth resources available to the community at large? Using our group >> as an example, we are a small group that is funding all of our >> adventures out of our own pockets. Hosting something like and updated >> ISO would break us and cripple our connections making bittorrent the >> only option. > > Just in case we cannot arrange formal mirror space, I recommend that we > lean hard on Fedora contributors to share some of their own bandwidth. > I pledge at least 100 Kb of torrent upload (about a sixth of my upload > rate). > > Then you an use your bandwidth to deliver the ISO via a secret URL > directly to the torrent hosts. Idea generation: borrow from the firefox affiliate system. Points to people who deliver X kilobytes of data or X amount of bandwith. Props to folks who delivery X number of distributions (based on bandwith.) --Chris From dmalcolm at redhat.com Wed May 17 17:37:24 2006 From: dmalcolm at redhat.com (David Malcolm) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 13:37:24 -0400 Subject: lobby-buddy was: Re: [fab] Pimping Fluendo for MP3 support In-Reply-To: References: <1147833507.2825.7.camel@aglarond.local> <1147878611.9390.13.camel@aglarond.local> Message-ID: <1147887444.31380.13.camel@cassandra.boston.redhat.com> On Wed, 2006-05-17 at 11:59 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > On Wed, 17 May 2006, Jeremy Katz wrote: > > > > What if there were a big link on the default desktop that said "Do you > > > want MP3?" And then the user clicks on a link, and the link tells a > > > story. > > > > Frankly, I don't think they'll read it. Which is a shame, but I don't > > know how to change habits of users which have existed since the dawn of > > time. > > We'll lose 100% of the users we don't try to convince. If we want to > educate people, and maybe change their minds, then we need to fight for > it. > > We say we want to be pure -- but 95% of the people who could be using > Fedora don't know or don't care about that purity. > > > And I also don't think that cluttering the desktop is the way forward (I > > also expect that cluttering the desktop would be met with cries of anger > > and pitchforks from the maintainers of the desktop ;) > > Yeah, you're probably right. So maybe it's a default helper app; when you > try to play an MP3, it opens up a Firefox page telling the story and > pointing to Fluendo. > For a while I've been toying with the idea of an analogue to "bug-buggy" (the app that pops up when something crashes that lates you report bugs) called "lobby-buddy", which would pop up every time a user tries to do something for which we can't redistribute Free software. It could look up the user's address in evolution-data-server, figure out their elected representative and language, and generate a letter for them to print out, sign, and send, explaining what the problem is (since I believe written communication has more weight with politicians that email) Dave From jkeating at redhat.com Wed May 17 17:51:25 2006 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 13:51:25 -0400 Subject: [fab] Where to send information? Message-ID: <1147888285.12331.3.camel@ender> I'm changing the layout of Development. I'd like to inform the appropriate folks, and I think this is a good place to catch the various project leaders. Info is here: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/NewDevelopmentLayout I've already brought this up with mirror-list-d, the discussion list for our public mirroring system. More people need to know about it now. Other than you folks, where do you think I should post information regarding this? -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mspevack at redhat.com Wed May 17 18:23:29 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 14:23:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Pimping Fluendo for MP3 support In-Reply-To: <1147870786.7403.7.camel@ender> References: <1147833507.2825.7.camel@aglarond.local> <1147835277.7734.5.camel@cutter> <1147870786.7403.7.camel@ender> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 May 2006, Jesse Keating wrote: > If we don't put it on the desktop, can we at least put it in some sort > of official FAQ? Maybe the release notes (god knows nobody reads > those...) Well, it's on http://www.fedorafaq.org/#mp3 but as they say themselves, it's the "unofficial fedora faq" --Max -- Max Spevack + http://people.redhat.com/mspevack/ + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From mspevack at redhat.com Wed May 17 18:26:12 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 14:26:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Pimping Fluendo for MP3 support In-Reply-To: References: <1147833507.2825.7.camel@aglarond.local> <1147835277.7734.5.camel@cutter> <1147870786.7403.7.camel@ender> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 May 2006, Max Spevack wrote: > On Wed, 17 May 2006, Jesse Keating wrote: > >> If we don't put it on the desktop, can we at least put it in some sort >> of official FAQ? Maybe the release notes (god knows nobody reads >> those...) > > Well, it's on http://www.fedorafaq.org/#mp3 > > but as they say themselves, it's the "unofficial fedora faq" And it also has nothing to do with Fluendo. --Max -- Max Spevack + http://people.redhat.com/mspevack/ + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From tchung at fedoraproject.org Wed May 17 18:26:26 2006 From: tchung at fedoraproject.org (Thomas Chung) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 11:26:26 -0700 Subject: [fab] Where to send information? In-Reply-To: <1147888285.12331.3.camel@ender> References: <1147888285.12331.3.camel@ender> Message-ID: <369bce3b0605171126x1cd71fffw79bb191e2fb69b9d@mail.gmail.com> On 5/17/06, Jesse Keating wrote: > I'm changing the layout of Development. I'd like to inform the > appropriate folks, and I think this is a good place to catch the various > project leaders. > > Info is here: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/NewDevelopmentLayout > > I've already brought this up with mirror-list-d, the discussion list for > our public mirroring system. More people need to know about it now. > Other than you folks, where do you think I should post information > regarding this? > > -- > Jesse Keating > Release Engineer: Fedora Any major news announcement, I think it should be posted in fedora-announce-list. Of course, you can always use fedoranews.org. :) Regards, -- Thomas Chung http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung From notting at redhat.com Wed May 17 19:08:53 2006 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 15:08:53 -0400 Subject: [fab] Governing body to handle package guideline issues In-Reply-To: References: <1147877324.5295.6.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20060517190853.GB24486@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Max Spevack (mspevack at redhat.com) said: > Personally, I don't think this group needs to be some sort of elected > body. I think we should be able to pretty easily determine who the right > people are, and from that group elect/appoint a leader. Then we just need > to make it very clear what the mandate of this group is, give it a wiki > page and an email list, and let it go. > > something like: > > - make decisions about packaging guidelines for Extras and Core > - what else? > > What do you all think? If we are merging more than just packaging guidelines, it would have to deal with common rules about freezes, upgrades, EOL, legacy, etc., etc... Bill From Christian.Iseli at licr.org Wed May 17 19:53:36 2006 From: Christian.Iseli at licr.org (Christian.Iseli at licr.org) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 21:53:36 +0200 Subject: [fab] Governing body to handle package guideline issues In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 17 May 2006 11:10:12 EDT." Message-ID: <200605171953.k4HJreti013637@mx3.redhat.com> mspevack at redhat.com said: > Personally, I don't think this group needs to be some sort of elected body. > I think we should be able to pretty easily determine who the right people > are, and from that group elect/appoint a leader. Then we just need to make > it very clear what the mandate of this group is, give it a wiki page and an > email list, and let it go. Good plan. I think spot would be a fine leader. Christian From mspevack at redhat.com Wed May 17 20:47:57 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 16:47:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Governing body to handle package guideline issues In-Reply-To: References: <1147877324.5295.6.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 May 2006, Max Spevack wrote: > Personally, I don't think this group needs to be some sort of elected > body. I think we should be able to pretty easily determine who the right > people are, and from that group elect/appoint a leader. Then we just > need to make it very clear what the mandate of this group is, give it a > wiki page and an email list, and let it go. Sounds like spot has been nominated leader by acclimation. Spot, do you accept, and can you lead the effort from here? Anyone got a problem with that? Speak soon. --Max -- Max Spevack + http://people.redhat.com/mspevack/ + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org Wed May 17 20:47:49 2006 From: jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org (Josh Boyer) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 15:47:49 -0500 Subject: [fab] Pimping Fluendo for MP3 support In-Reply-To: <1147878007.10822.5.camel@cutter> References: <1147833507.2825.7.camel@aglarond.local> <1147878007.10822.5.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <20060517204749.GB5363@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> On Wed, May 17, 2006 at 11:00:07AM -0400, seth vidal wrote: > > And then, at the end, it tells you how to get MP3 codecs legally, and > > urges you to use those codecs to translate all of your MP3 files to OGG. > > > > Or would that be "giving in" too much? > > > > There's no way we can provide an mp3->ogg translator w/o violating the > patent, can we? I don't think you want to do that anyway. Both are lossy formats. The sound quality that would result from conversion would suck and then you would get reports of "My music sounds like ass. Fedora sucks" josh From jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org Wed May 17 20:40:53 2006 From: jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org (Josh Boyer) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 15:40:53 -0500 Subject: [fab] Fedora Core Updates -- "respins" In-Reply-To: <1147876970.2457.414.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <4468D10D.2010600@bobjensen.com> <1147876970.2457.414.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <20060517204053.GA5363@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> On Wed, May 17, 2006 at 07:42:49AM -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Mon, 2006-05-15 at 14:05 -0500, Robert 'Bob' Jensen wrote: > > At the Fedora Unity Project we have begun scripting the creation of > > updated ISO images for FC5, we are testing what we hope to be our first > > public release this week. > > Just in case we cannot arrange formal mirror space, I recommend that we > lean hard on Fedora contributors to share some of their own bandwidth. > I pledge at least 100 Kb of torrent upload (about a sixth of my upload > rate). I'm in for a bit of torrent upload bandwidth if needs be. It's fairly slow, but not worthless. josh From smooge at gmail.com Wed May 17 22:44:31 2006 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 16:44:31 -0600 Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: <1147879537.18341.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <200605151639.k4FGd9sa018992@ludwig-alpha.unil.ch> <4468B243.6050902@redhat.com> <1147876537.2457.406.camel@erato.phig.org> <1147877797.18341.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1147879330.5295.11.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <1147879537.18341.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <80d7e4090605171544r4b2478ecr417908c7a2099ce2@mail.gmail.com> On 5/17/06, Tom 'spot' Callaway wrote: > On Wed, 2006-05-17 at 11:22 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > > On Wed, 2006-05-17 at 09:56 -0500, Tom 'spot' Callaway wrote: > > > What we do not have are branches for RHEL and buildsystem infrastructure > > > to generate these packages for RHEL. We don't know if the Fedora > > > community will see value in managing RHEL branches as well as Fedora > > > branches, given that they may not be using RHEL. It will certainly be > > > more difficult for independent packagers to test RHEL builds locally, > > > since we are not distributing the binaries for RHEL. > > > > Not to mention that RHEL packages have such things as stability, > > backported security fixes, etc.. things that Extras packages and > > maintainers don't really worry about now. Not to mention a 7 year > > lifespan. I really doubt you're going to find an Extras maintainer who > > would like to volunteer to maintain a piece of software for 7 years. > > Yep. I agree. I think "RHEL Extras" will have to be something that Red > Hat, the corporate devil, will need to be responsible for and driving. > That's not to say that we wouldn't permit community members to play in > that sandbox, just that it falls well outside the Fedora arena. > Yeah, I want to be paid to do RHEL Extras, but don't care so much to be paid for Centos, Whitebox, or Tao Extras :). It all goes for being the corporate devil. And I say this in partial jest. Where I work.. I do lots of 'extras' porting from Fedora to RHEL as RHEL is our standard and Fedora is where the packages are. Turning those into packages back to RHEL is a pain because we pay for 'services' and expect that it would either be discounted from our costs. However, I do not seem to have this problem with 'Scientific Linux' due to costs involved ($0) -- Stephen J Smoogen. CSIRT/Linux System Administrator From kwade at redhat.com Wed May 17 23:20:23 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 16:20:23 -0700 Subject: [fab] Pimping Fluendo for MP3 support In-Reply-To: References: <1147833507.2825.7.camel@aglarond.local> <1147835277.7734.5.camel@cutter> <1147870786.7403.7.camel@ender> Message-ID: <1147908024.2457.494.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2006-05-17 at 14:23 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: > On Wed, 17 May 2006, Jesse Keating wrote: > > > If we don't put it on the desktop, can we at least put it in some sort > > of official FAQ? Maybe the release notes (god knows nobody reads > > those...) > > Well, it's on http://www.fedorafaq.org/#mp3 > > but as they say themselves, it's the "unofficial fedora faq" We've also made that a two-step from the installed desktop: 1. Open Firefox, which opens /usr/share/doc/HTML/index.html by default 2. Click on side navigation to Fedora End-User Support Forum (fedoraforum.org) Alternately, click on Fedora Project FAQ and find: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FAQ#head-b04c931c017de3facba9c69207925234df3c2232 I don't really have a point other than to say ... if you have to document a workaround, the documentation isn't the problem. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Editor * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Fedora Documentation Project http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject Learn. Network. Experience open source. Red Hat Summit Nashville | May 30 - June 2, 2006 Learn more: http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed May 17 23:23:42 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 16:23:42 -0700 Subject: [fab] Where to send information? In-Reply-To: <1147888285.12331.3.camel@ender> References: <1147888285.12331.3.camel@ender> Message-ID: <1147908223.2457.496.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2006-05-17 at 13:51 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > I'm changing the layout of Development. I'd like to inform the > appropriate folks, and I think this is a good place to catch the various > project leaders. > > Info is here: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/NewDevelopmentLayout > > I've already brought this up with mirror-list-d, the discussion list for > our public mirroring system. More people need to know about it now. > Other than you folks, where do you think I should post information > regarding this? I'll ask on f-docs-l to see if anyone is interested in helping with the documentation, as you request. Alternately, be prepared to take extensive scratch notes and we'll make 'em documentation later. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Editor * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Fedora Documentation Project http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject Learn. Network. Experience open source. Red Hat Summit Nashville | May 30 - June 2, 2006 Learn more: http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From tcallawa at redhat.com Thu May 18 14:42:45 2006 From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom 'spot' Callaway) Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 09:42:45 -0500 Subject: [fab] Governing body to handle package guideline issues In-Reply-To: References: <1147877324.5295.6.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1147963365.20451.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2006-05-17 at 16:47 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: > On Wed, 17 May 2006, Max Spevack wrote: > > > Personally, I don't think this group needs to be some sort of elected > > body. I think we should be able to pretty easily determine who the right > > people are, and from that group elect/appoint a leader. Then we just > > need to make it very clear what the mandate of this group is, give it a > > wiki page and an email list, and let it go. > > Sounds like spot has been nominated leader by acclimation. Spot, do you > accept, and can you lead the effort from here? Anyone got a problem with > that? Speak soon. Sure, but be aware that efforts will not start in earnest until next week, as I am leaving for a wedding tomorrow and will be offline until Monday. ~spot -- Tom "spot" Callaway: Red Hat Senior Sales Engineer || GPG ID: 93054260 Fedora Extras Steering Committee Member (RPM Standards and Practices) Aurora Linux Project Leader: http://auroralinux.org Lemurs, llamas, and sparcs, oh my! From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sat May 20 09:49:29 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 15:19:29 +0530 Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: <20060516155554.GC13945@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <1147711584.10251.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4468B609.8010206@redhat.com> <4468BB02.4030505@redhat.com> <20060516155554.GC13945@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1148118569.4310.432.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> On Tue, 2006-05-16 at 11:55 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Mark Webbink (mwebbink at redhat.com) said: > > Unless it is already in the kernel, no, it doesn't count. Now, if we > > able to push it into the upstream kernel, it would eventually be covered. > > It is (and has been) in the upstream kernel. We just don't build it. So, does the OIN argument apply to the upstream kernel. If so, whats preventing Fedora from shipping ntfs? Rahul From notting at redhat.com Mon May 22 15:37:11 2006 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 11:37:11 -0400 Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: <1148118569.4310.432.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> References: <1147711584.10251.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4468B609.8010206@redhat.com> <4468BB02.4030505@redhat.com> <20060516155554.GC13945@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1148118569.4310.432.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20060522153711.GA3953@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Rahul Sundaram (sundaram at fedoraproject.org) said: > On Tue, 2006-05-16 at 11:55 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > Mark Webbink (mwebbink at redhat.com) said: > > > Unless it is already in the kernel, no, it doesn't count. Now, if we > > > able to push it into the upstream kernel, it would eventually be covered. > > > > It is (and has been) in the upstream kernel. We just don't build it. > > So, does the OIN argument apply to the upstream kernel. If so, whats > preventing Fedora from shipping ntfs? It's not as simple as "it's in OIN". For example, if libmad was in OIN (it's not) it would still be foolish to ship it... Bill From gdk at redhat.com Mon May 22 15:44:41 2006 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 11:44:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: NTFS (was Re: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo) In-Reply-To: <20060522153711.GA3953@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <1147711584.10251.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4468B609.8010206@redhat.com> <4468BB02.4030505@redhat.com> <20060516155554.GC13945@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1148118569.4310.432.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <20060522153711.GA3953@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 May 2006, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > > It is (and has been) in the upstream kernel. We just don't build it. > > > > So, does the OIN argument apply to the upstream kernel. If so, whats > > preventing Fedora from shipping ntfs? > > It's not as simple as "it's in OIN". For example, if libmad was in OIN > (it's not) it would still be foolish to ship it... Why is it not that simple? If NTFS is already in the upstream kernel... ...and if the kernel is specifically covered by OIN... ...and if we're comfortable shipping other risky M$ technologies that are specifically covered by OIN... ...then why are we not shipping NTFS in the Fedora kernel? The more I think about it, the more I think it's a *very* simple question. --g --------------------------------------------------------------- Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Foundation || fedoraproject.org Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors --------------------------------------------------------------- From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon May 22 15:51:45 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 21:21:45 +0530 Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: <20060522153711.GA3953@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <1147711584.10251.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4468B609.8010206@redhat.com> <4468BB02.4030505@redhat.com> <20060516155554.GC13945@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1148118569.4310.432.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <20060522153711.GA3953@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1148313106.4310.499.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> On Mon, 2006-05-22 at 11:37 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Rahul Sundaram (sundaram at fedoraproject.org) said: > > On Tue, 2006-05-16 at 11:55 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > > Mark Webbink (mwebbink at redhat.com) said: > > > > Unless it is already in the kernel, no, it doesn't count. Now, if we > > > > able to push it into the upstream kernel, it would eventually be covered. > > > > > > It is (and has been) in the upstream kernel. We just don't build it. > > > > So, does the OIN argument apply to the upstream kernel. If so, whats > > preventing Fedora from shipping ntfs? > > It's not as simple as "it's in OIN". For example, if libmad was in OIN > (it's not) it would still be foolish to ship it... If OIN decides to include something like libmad it would be a failure on the part of OIN as well as Red Hat as a member organization. If we are going to doing additional cross checking beyond the OIN list we can but we need to be clear whether we trust the OIN process which we did for mono to help in the decision of including/not including NTFS in Fedora. Rahul From chitlesh at fedoraproject.org Mon May 22 16:39:41 2006 From: chitlesh at fedoraproject.org (Chitlesh GOORAH) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 18:39:41 +0200 Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <13dbfe4f0605220939q11cec766n38eb055c9a56ebf0@mail.gmail.com> On 5/14/06, Max Spevack wrote: > Howdy folks, > > The Fedora Project Board meets next Tuesday (5/16), and Matthew Szulik > (Red Hat CEO) is scheduled to be in on the meeting. > Is there any meeting minutes of this meeting ? Chitlesh -- http://clunixchit.blogspot.com From mspevack at redhat.com Mon May 22 17:01:31 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 13:01:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: <13dbfe4f0605220939q11cec766n38eb055c9a56ebf0@mail.gmail.com> References: <13dbfe4f0605220939q11cec766n38eb055c9a56ebf0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 May 2006, Chitlesh GOORAH wrote: > On 5/14/06, Max Spevack wrote: >> Howdy folks, >> >> The Fedora Project Board meets next Tuesday (5/16), and Matthew Szulik >> (Red Hat CEO) is scheduled to be in on the meeting. >> > > Is there any meeting minutes of this meeting ? Yes, I just haven't had a chance to post it yet. Coming soon though. --Max -- Max Spevack + http://people.redhat.com/mspevack/ + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From chitlesh at fedoraproject.org Mon May 22 17:03:05 2006 From: chitlesh at fedoraproject.org (Chitlesh GOORAH) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 19:03:05 +0200 Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: References: <13dbfe4f0605220939q11cec766n38eb055c9a56ebf0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <13dbfe4f0605221003j510feb75y9ff75d69749bff2@mail.gmail.com> On 5/22/06, Max Spevack wrote: > Yes, I just haven't had a chance to post it yet. Coming soon though. > Thanks Max. From notting at redhat.com Mon May 22 17:39:27 2006 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 13:39:27 -0400 Subject: NTFS (was Re: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo) In-Reply-To: References: <1147711584.10251.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4468B609.8010206@redhat.com> <4468BB02.4030505@redhat.com> <20060516155554.GC13945@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1148118569.4310.432.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <20060522153711.GA3953@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20060522173927.GG23801@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Greg DeKoenigsberg (gdk at redhat.com) said: > > On Mon, 22 May 2006, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > > > > It is (and has been) in the upstream kernel. We just don't build it. > > > > > > So, does the OIN argument apply to the upstream kernel. If so, whats > > > preventing Fedora from shipping ntfs? > > > > It's not as simple as "it's in OIN". For example, if libmad was in OIN > > (it's not) it would still be foolish to ship it... > > Why is it not that simple? > > If NTFS is already in the upstream kernel... > > ...and if the kernel is specifically covered by OIN... > > ...and if we're comfortable shipping other risky M$ technologies that are > specifically covered by OIN... > > ...then why are we not shipping NTFS in the Fedora kernel? > > The more I think about it, the more I think it's a *very* simple question. Point C is not an obvious conclusion from points A and B. Bill From gdk at redhat.com Mon May 22 17:43:12 2006 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 13:43:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: NTFS (was Re: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo) In-Reply-To: <20060522173927.GG23801@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <1147711584.10251.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4468B609.8010206@redhat.com> <4468BB02.4030505@redhat.com> <20060516155554.GC13945@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1148118569.4310.432.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <20060522153711.GA3953@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20060522173927.GG23801@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 May 2006, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > If NTFS is already in the upstream kernel... > > > > ...and if the kernel is specifically covered by OIN... > > > > ...and if we're comfortable shipping other risky M$ technologies that are > > specifically covered by OIN... > > > > ...then why are we not shipping NTFS in the Fedora kernel? > > > > The more I think about it, the more I think it's a *very* simple question. > > Point C is not an obvious conclusion from points A and B. No? Tell me why not. If the answer is "political reasons that have nothing to do with legal reasons," I can accept that answer. However, if the answer is "because we're afraid of getting sued," well then, I think we need to know *exactly* how this situation differs from the Mono situation. --g --------------------------------------------------------------- Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Foundation || fedoraproject.org Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors --------------------------------------------------------------- From notting at redhat.com Mon May 22 18:10:40 2006 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 14:10:40 -0400 Subject: NTFS (was Re: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo) In-Reply-To: References: <4468B609.8010206@redhat.com> <4468BB02.4030505@redhat.com> <20060516155554.GC13945@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1148118569.4310.432.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <20060522153711.GA3953@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20060522173927.GG23801@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20060522181040.GB21839@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Greg DeKoenigsberg (gdk at redhat.com) said: > > > If NTFS is already in the upstream kernel... > > > > > > ...and if the kernel is specifically covered by OIN... > > > > > > ...and if we're comfortable shipping other risky M$ technologies that are > > > specifically covered by OIN... > > > > > > ...then why are we not shipping NTFS in the Fedora kernel? > > > > > > The more I think about it, the more I think it's a *very* simple question. > > > > Point C is not an obvious conclusion from points A and B. > > No? Tell me why not. > > If the answer is "political reasons that have nothing to do with legal > reasons," I can accept that answer. > > However, if the answer is "because we're afraid of getting sued," well > then, I think we need to know *exactly* how this situation differs from > the Mono situation. Mono is, for better or worse, a relatively self-contained application. For something like NTFS, it's different. There is basic FS support (reading and writing) in the kernel at the moment, yes. But what if you were to do something like filesystem resizing (online or offline)? Exporting of the filesystem from userspace? Filesystem creation? Not all of these things are in the kernel. So, the question is, is the entire problem space for a technology under OIN? Bill From tcallawa at redhat.com Mon May 22 18:14:10 2006 From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom 'spot' Callaway) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 13:14:10 -0500 Subject: NTFS (was Re: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo) In-Reply-To: <20060522181040.GB21839@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <4468B609.8010206@redhat.com> <4468BB02.4030505@redhat.com> <20060516155554.GC13945@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1148118569.4310.432.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <20060522153711.GA3953@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20060522173927.GG23801@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20060522181040.GB21839@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1148321650.2295.104.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2006-05-22 at 14:10 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Greg DeKoenigsberg (gdk at redhat.com) said: > Mono is, for better or worse, a relatively self-contained application. > > For something like NTFS, it's different. There is basic FS support > (reading and writing) in the kernel at the moment, yes. Lets start here. If we can't do userspace, because ntfsprogs isn't OIN protected, that sucks, but it would be a huge benefit to the community if we can at least start including the ntfs kernel module. ~spot -- Tom "spot" Callaway: Red Hat Senior Sales Engineer || GPG ID: 93054260 Fedora Extras Steering Committee Member (RPM Standards and Practices) Aurora Linux Project Leader: http://auroralinux.org Lemurs, llamas, and sparcs, oh my! From jkeating at redhat.com Mon May 22 18:24:56 2006 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 14:24:56 -0400 Subject: NTFS (was Re: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo) In-Reply-To: <1148321650.2295.104.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4468B609.8010206@redhat.com> <4468BB02.4030505@redhat.com> <20060516155554.GC13945@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1148118569.4310.432.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <20060522153711.GA3953@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20060522173927.GG23801@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20060522181040.GB21839@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <1148321650.2295.104.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1148322296.337.23.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> On Mon, 2006-05-22 at 13:14 -0500, Tom 'spot' Callaway wrote: > Lets start here. If we can't do userspace, because ntfsprogs isn't OIN > protected, that sucks, but it would be a huge benefit to the community > if we can at least start including the ntfs kernel module. I agree. Not being able to do userspace shouldn't stop us from doing kernel space. Let 'other locations' handle the user space. -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From bob at bobjensen.com Mon May 22 21:18:57 2006 From: bob at bobjensen.com (Robert 'Bob' Jensen) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 16:18:57 -0500 Subject: [fab] Fedora Unity Re-Spin Update Message-ID: <44722AC1.1000501@bobjensen.com> Just wanted to drop a note here about the status of the Fedora Unity Project's Re-spins. In testing of our re-spin dated 2006-05-12 we found what was thought to be a release killer, the image did not pass the media check. It turns out that this would not have been a killer if it had been noticed earlier in the testing process. However now we have made the choice to spin a new updated DVD ISO tonight for each i386 and x86_64. We hope to have it tested and ready to be released on this coming Monday 2006-05-29. Seeds, testers and interested parties can get more information from our torrent site[1]. Feel free to contact us with any questions. [1] http://torrent.fedoraunity.org/torrent/ -- Robert 'Bob' Jensen * * http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BobJensen gpg fingerprint: F9F4 7243 4243 0043 2C45 97AF E8A4 C3AE 42EB 0BC6 Fedora Unity Project * bob at bobjensen.com * http://fedoraunity.org/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 251 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From chitlesh at fedoraproject.org Tue May 23 00:03:03 2006 From: chitlesh at fedoraproject.org (Chitlesh GOORAH) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 02:03:03 +0200 Subject: [fab] Fedora Logo versus OPL License Message-ID: <13dbfe4f0605221703n668bf76fn1e773187764727c7@mail.gmail.com> Hello, First I could be WRONG and I'm not a lawyer. I think the Fedora Logo can be modified and redistributed by anyone without being prosecuted., let me explain. Anyone needs an approval of usage for the Fedora Logo. Hence he/she sends a request. When the request is approved, we receive an email: =========================================== Here's your logo. By using it, you're agreeing to the following simple rules: 1. You won't alter the logo. 2. You'll only use the logo to describe Fedora stuff. 3. You won't use the logo for anything hateful or stupid. 4. We reserve the right to disallow your use of the logo. Thanks for all your help supporting Fedora. ============================================ from http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Licensing/FAQ (though its still a draft) : ====================================================== Fedora documentation consists of three types of content: * The contents of the Fedora Wiki, contributed by members of the Fedora community ............ All Fedora documentation is provided under the terms of the [WWW] Open Publication License (OPL). This means that: * You may freely copy and distribute all Fedora documentation * You may modify copies of any Fedora documentation, and redistribute your modified versions * You may reuse parts of Fedora documentation in your own work ===================================================== Since the _official_ Fedora Logo is on http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Logo, this gives anyone the right to copy, modify and redistribute it.. If Im right here, we have to remove the _OFFICIAL_ Fedora Logo as quick as possible from the fedoraproject.org wiki. Maybe It does affect the Fedora Artwork too. Regards, Chitlesh GOORAH -- http://clunixchit.blogspot.com From jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org Tue May 23 00:45:24 2006 From: jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org (Josh Boyer) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 19:45:24 -0500 Subject: [fab] Fedora Unity Re-Spin Update In-Reply-To: <44722AC1.1000501@bobjensen.com> References: <44722AC1.1000501@bobjensen.com> Message-ID: <1148345124.5542.12.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> On Mon, 2006-05-22 at 16:18 -0500, Robert 'Bob' Jensen wrote: > > Seeds, testers and interested parties can get more information from our > torrent site[1]. > > Feel free to contact us with any questions. > > [1] http://torrent.fedoraunity.org/torrent/ That specific URL is a 404. Is there some other place we're supposed to look to figure out how to help seed? josh From bob at bobjensen.com Tue May 23 03:54:10 2006 From: bob at bobjensen.com (Robert 'Bob' Jensen) Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 22:54:10 -0500 Subject: [fab] Fedora Unity Re-Spin Update In-Reply-To: <1148345124.5542.12.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> References: <44722AC1.1000501@bobjensen.com> <1148345124.5542.12.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: <44728762.5050506@bobjensen.com> Josh Boyer wrote: > On Mon, 2006-05-22 at 16:18 -0500, Robert 'Bob' Jensen wrote: >> Seeds, testers and interested parties can get more information from our >> torrent site[1]. >> >> Feel free to contact us with any questions. >> >> [1] http://torrent.fedoraunity.org/torrent/ > > That specific URL is a 404. Is there some other place we're supposed to > look to figure out how to help seed? > > josh > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board > Oh shoot typo on my part http://torrent.fedoraunity.org/torrents -- Robert 'Bob' Jensen * * http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BobJensen gpg fingerprint: F9F4 7243 4243 0043 2C45 97AF E8A4 C3AE 42EB 0BC6 Fedora Unity Project * bob at fedoraunity.org * http://fedoraunity.org/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 251 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue May 23 05:51:45 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 11:21:45 +0530 Subject: [fab] Fedora Logo versus OPL License In-Reply-To: <13dbfe4f0605221703n668bf76fn1e773187764727c7@mail.gmail.com> References: <13dbfe4f0605221703n668bf76fn1e773187764727c7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1148363506.4310.521.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> On Tue, 2006-05-23 at 02:03 +0200, Chitlesh GOORAH wrote: > Hello, > > First I could be WRONG and I'm not a lawyer. > > I think the Fedora Logo can be modified and redistributed by anyone > without being prosecuted., let me explain. > > Anyone needs an approval of usage for the Fedora Logo. Hence he/she > sends a request. > > When the request is approved, we receive an email: > =========================================== > Here's your logo. By using it, you're agreeing to the following simple > rules: > > 1. You won't alter the logo. > 2. You'll only use the logo to describe Fedora stuff. > 3. You won't use the logo for anything hateful or stupid. > 4. We reserve the right to disallow your use of the logo. > > Thanks for all your help supporting Fedora. > ============================================ > > from http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Licensing/FAQ (though > its still a draft) : > > ====================================================== > Fedora documentation consists of three types of content: > * The contents of the Fedora Wiki, contributed by members of the > Fedora community > ............ > > All Fedora documentation is provided under the terms of the [WWW] Open > Publication License (OPL). > > This means that: > * You may freely copy and distribute all Fedora documentation > * You may modify copies of any Fedora documentation, and > redistribute your modified versions > * You may reuse parts of Fedora documentation in your own work > ===================================================== > > Since the _official_ Fedora Logo is on > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Logo, this gives anyone the right to > copy, modify and redistribute it.. > > If Im right here, we have to remove the _OFFICIAL_ Fedora Logo as > quick as possible from the fedoraproject.org wiki. > > Maybe It does affect the Fedora Artwork too. You are wrong. The logo or artwork is not licensed under OPL. Rahul From chitlesh at fedoraproject.org Tue May 23 06:48:34 2006 From: chitlesh at fedoraproject.org (Chitlesh GOORAH) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 08:48:34 +0200 Subject: [fab] Fedora Logo versus OPL License In-Reply-To: <1148363506.4310.521.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> References: <13dbfe4f0605221703n668bf76fn1e773187764727c7@mail.gmail.com> <1148363506.4310.521.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: <13dbfe4f0605222348p28a8776ftc9b8da77af6b11f1@mail.gmail.com> On 5/23/06, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > You are wrong. The logo or artwork is not licensed under OPL. > > Rahul But since the Fedora Logo is now part of the contents of the wiki. It may be considered as OPL ? -- http://clunixchit.blogspot.com From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue May 23 06:51:57 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 12:21:57 +0530 Subject: [fab] Fedora Logo versus OPL License In-Reply-To: <13dbfe4f0605222348p28a8776ftc9b8da77af6b11f1@mail.gmail.com> References: <13dbfe4f0605221703n668bf76fn1e773187764727c7@mail.gmail.com> <1148363506.4310.521.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <13dbfe4f0605222348p28a8776ftc9b8da77af6b11f1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1148367117.4310.526.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> On Tue, 2006-05-23 at 08:48 +0200, Chitlesh GOORAH wrote: > On 5/23/06, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > You are wrong. The logo or artwork is not licensed under OPL. > > > > Rahul > > But since the Fedora Logo is now part of the contents of the wiki. It > may be considered as OPL ? > It doesnt work that way. Just because you upload something into the wiki doesnt mean that it is licensed under OPL. You are free to upload a GPL licensed artwork such BlueCurve into the wiki for example. Rahul From nman64 at n-man.com Tue May 23 07:05:51 2006 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick W. Barnes) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 02:05:51 -0500 Subject: [fab] Fedora Logo versus OPL License In-Reply-To: <13dbfe4f0605222348p28a8776ftc9b8da77af6b11f1@mail.gmail.com> References: <13dbfe4f0605221703n668bf76fn1e773187764727c7@mail.gmail.com> <1148363506.4310.521.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <13dbfe4f0605222348p28a8776ftc9b8da77af6b11f1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200605230205.54061.nman64@n-man.com> On Tuesday 23 May 2006 01:48, "Chitlesh GOORAH" wrote: > On 5/23/06, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > You are wrong. The logo or artwork is not licensed under OPL. > > > > Rahul > > But since the Fedora Logo is now part of the contents of the wiki. It > may be considered as OPL ? I can see where you would get that idea, but it isn't the case. In the future, you should also avoid referring to draft documentation, especially for legal issues. The canonical reference is in the Legal section of the wiki. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com http://www.n-man.com/ LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/nman64 Have I been helpful? Rate my assistance! http://rate.affero.net/nman64/ -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From chitlesh at fedoraproject.org Tue May 23 07:18:47 2006 From: chitlesh at fedoraproject.org (Chitlesh GOORAH) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 09:18:47 +0200 Subject: [fab] Fedora Logo versus OPL License In-Reply-To: <200605230205.54061.nman64@n-man.com> References: <13dbfe4f0605221703n668bf76fn1e773187764727c7@mail.gmail.com> <1148363506.4310.521.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <13dbfe4f0605222348p28a8776ftc9b8da77af6b11f1@mail.gmail.com> <200605230205.54061.nman64@n-man.com> Message-ID: <13dbfe4f0605230018i7d0d156bi312a226199373e2@mail.gmail.com> On 5/23/06, Patrick W. Barnes wrote: > I can see where you would get that idea, but it isn't the case. > > In the future, you should also avoid referring to draft documentation, > especially for legal issues. The canonical reference is in the Legal section > of the wiki. Since it is a draft, Ive made referrence to it. If till now, there is something wrong about it we can can change before it is made final. :) -- http://clunixchit.blogspot.com From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Tue May 23 11:53:13 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 07:53:13 -0400 Subject: [fab] Fedora Unity Re-Spin Update In-Reply-To: <44728762.5050506@bobjensen.com> References: <44722AC1.1000501@bobjensen.com> <1148345124.5542.12.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <44728762.5050506@bobjensen.com> Message-ID: <1148385193.5212.1.camel@cutter> On Mon, 2006-05-22 at 22:54 -0500, Robert 'Bob' Jensen wrote: > Josh Boyer wrote: > > On Mon, 2006-05-22 at 16:18 -0500, Robert 'Bob' Jensen wrote: > >> Seeds, testers and interested parties can get more information from our > >> torrent site[1]. > >> > >> Feel free to contact us with any questions. > >> > >> [1] http://torrent.fedoraunity.org/torrent/ > > > > That specific URL is a 404. Is there some other place we're supposed to > > look to figure out how to help seed? > > > > josh > > > > _______________________________________________ > > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board > > > > Oh shoot typo on my part > > http://torrent.fedoraunity.org/torrents > any particular reason we're setting up multiple torrent trackers? Why not use torrent.fedoraproject.org? -sv From jkeating at redhat.com Tue May 23 11:59:42 2006 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 07:59:42 -0400 Subject: [fab] Fedora Unity Re-Spin Update In-Reply-To: <1148385193.5212.1.camel@cutter> References: <44722AC1.1000501@bobjensen.com> <1148345124.5542.12.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <44728762.5050506@bobjensen.com> <1148385193.5212.1.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1148385582.3819.19.camel@ender> On Tue, 2006-05-23 at 07:53 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > > any particular reason we're setting up multiple torrent trackers? Why > not use torrent.fedoraproject.org? > I think because the Unity thing has yet to be 'blessed' as an official respin, something that we'd feel comfortable providing through official Fedora channels. Same reason that legacy updates were done on their own infrastructure (and still released that way, but I'm working to change that). The board can't get the logo issue figured out as to whether or not the Unity project can release something and call it Fedora, but I think they're moving forward anyway with the expectation that eventually this will get worked out, and they could become some sort of official Fedora thing. -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From laroche at redhat.com Tue May 23 12:24:43 2006 From: laroche at redhat.com (Florian La Roche) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 14:24:43 +0200 Subject: [fab] Fedora Unity Re-Spin Update In-Reply-To: <1148385582.3819.19.camel@ender> References: <44722AC1.1000501@bobjensen.com> <1148345124.5542.12.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <44728762.5050506@bobjensen.com> <1148385193.5212.1.camel@cutter> <1148385582.3819.19.camel@ender> Message-ID: <20060523122443.GA3097@dudweiler.stuttgart.redhat.com> > I think because the Unity thing has yet to be 'blessed' as an official > respin, something that we'd feel comfortable providing through official > Fedora channels. Same reason that legacy updates were done on their own I think this would be the best thing to get things released until legal issues can be taken care off in more detail. regards, Florian La Roche From smooge at gmail.com Tue May 23 15:00:09 2006 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 09:00:09 -0600 Subject: [fab] Fedora Logo versus OPL License In-Reply-To: <13dbfe4f0605230018i7d0d156bi312a226199373e2@mail.gmail.com> References: <13dbfe4f0605221703n668bf76fn1e773187764727c7@mail.gmail.com> <1148363506.4310.521.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> <13dbfe4f0605222348p28a8776ftc9b8da77af6b11f1@mail.gmail.com> <200605230205.54061.nman64@n-man.com> <13dbfe4f0605230018i7d0d156bi312a226199373e2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <80d7e4090605230800g1577215etbb52cf667a21d0cf@mail.gmail.com> On 5/23/06, Chitlesh GOORAH wrote: > On 5/23/06, Patrick W. Barnes wrote: > > I can see where you would get that idea, but it isn't the case. > > > > In the future, you should also avoid referring to draft documentation, > > especially for legal issues. The canonical reference is in the Legal section > > of the wiki. > > Since it is a draft, Ive made referrence to it. > If till now, there is something wrong about it we can can change > before it is made final. :) > Hmmm, Mark Webbink should probably give us a quick law lesson if he has the chance. I remember getting a quick lesson years ago by another RH counsel about licensing.. but I have slept a lot since then, and I could be stickign 20 things together in the wrong order. What I recall is that there are some issues about referencing draft documents in a licensing deal unless the items are labeled correctly and that both items have a clause saying that the party righting the license has the right to change the license without notification (and party B is bound by those changes). If not someone who licenses there stuff under a broken draft can use it and not be covered under any fixes. -- Stephen J Smoogen. CSIRT/Linux System Administrator From nman64 at n-man.com Tue May 23 15:26:16 2006 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick W. Barnes) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 10:26:16 -0500 Subject: [fab] Fedora Logo versus OPL License In-Reply-To: <80d7e4090605230800g1577215etbb52cf667a21d0cf@mail.gmail.com> References: <13dbfe4f0605221703n668bf76fn1e773187764727c7@mail.gmail.com> <13dbfe4f0605230018i7d0d156bi312a226199373e2@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090605230800g1577215etbb52cf667a21d0cf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200605231026.21860.nman64@n-man.com> On Tuesday 23 May 2006 10:00, "Stephen John Smoogen" wrote: > > Hmmm, Mark Webbink should probably give us a quick law lesson if he > has the chance. > > I remember getting a quick lesson years ago by another RH counsel > about licensing.. but I have slept a lot since then, and I could be > stickign 20 things together in the wrong order. What I recall is that > there are some issues about referencing draft documents in a licensing > deal unless the items are labeled correctly and that both items have > a clause saying that the party righting the license has the right to > change the license without notification (and party B is bound by those > changes). If not someone who licenses there stuff under a broken draft > can use it and not be covered under any fixes. There aren't any drafts in the actual legal specifications. Chitlesh was pointing to a draft FAQ about Fedora Documentation licensing. The FAQ is not an actual legal reference. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com http://www.n-man.com/ LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/nman64 Have I been helpful? Rate my assistance! http://rate.affero.net/nman64/ -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mspevack at redhat.com Fri May 26 16:14:45 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 12:14:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] summary of board's conversation with Matthew Szulik Message-ID: I know this was a long time coming -- my apologies, as I was travelling and just generally busy. There will no longer be this kind of lag in the Board publicizing its meeting summaries. I take responsibility for the delay, and I apologize. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/Meetings/2006-05-16 -- Max Spevack + http://people.redhat.com/mspevack/ + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From kwade at redhat.com Sun May 28 03:10:56 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 20:10:56 -0700 Subject: [fab] global growth, balance Message-ID: <1148785857.8628.269.camel@erato.phig.org> From the recent board minutes: "How do we get more representation from India, South America, Middle East? Fedora had an excellent presence at the recent Brazilian show. Chris Blizzard was there. Why not think about a FUDCon in that area? In comparison, we don't have a community in India at the same level yet. Why not? Matthew challenges us to improve in these areas." Interesting observation, I had a different impression but wasn't in either location. How was FUDCon Delhi? I've heard that many FLOSS folks in India are into different projects than just distros (GNOME, for example), and there are many Debian/Ubuntu users. Is Fedora still a whisper there? I'm sure the folks in Brazil have considered a FUDCon, definitely a good idea. What I'm curious about is: * How do we measure participation in a country/culture? * How much responsibility do we have to intentionally enter new areas v. letting the interest grow from within that area itself? * How do we identify what are areas of the world to focus on? * What are we doing to prepare for e.g. more bugzilla reports in Simplified Chinese than English? Mighty, might stuff. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Editor * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Fedora Documentation Project http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject Learn. Network. Experience open source. Red Hat Summit Nashville | May 30 - June 2, 2006 Learn more: http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sun May 28 09:03:48 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 14:33:48 +0530 Subject: [fab] global growth, balance In-Reply-To: <1148785857.8628.269.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1148785857.8628.269.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1148807029.4310.756.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> On Sat, 2006-05-27 at 20:10 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > From the recent board minutes: > > "How do we get more representation from India, South America, Middle > East? Fedora had an excellent presence at the recent Brazilian show. > Chris Blizzard was there. Why not think about a FUDCon in that area? In > comparison, we don't have a community in India at the same level yet. > Why not? Matthew challenges us to improve in these areas." > > Interesting observation, I had a different impression but wasn't in > either location. How was FUDCon Delhi? I've heard that many FLOSS > folks in India are into different projects than just distros (GNOME, for > example), and there are many Debian/Ubuntu users. Is Fedora still a > whisper there? Fedora is pretty popular and got the Linux For You magazine and LinuxAsia best distribution awards based on user votes. From the LUG discussions throughout India I see Fedora mentioned pretty often though not always in a positive light. > > I'm sure the folks in Brazil have considered a FUDCon, definitely a good > idea. > > What I'm curious about is: > > * How do we measure participation in a country/culture? > Conversations - LUGs, magazine surveys, conference talks, community (users and developers) presence. > * How much responsibility do we have to intentionally enter new areas v. > letting the interest grow from within that area itself? We can took at tackling specific problems on occasions. Different regions have somewhat localized requirements at times. For example a specific piece of obsolete Ethernet or ISDN card might be extremely popular in Brazil or German. This is one of the key areas the regional communities can contribute towards. > > * How do we identify what are areas of the world to focus on? Whatever the community is willing to work on will get fixed. If we are focusing on the developers, there is a lot of momentum in the developing nations that we need to exploit. > > * What are we doing to prepare for e.g. more bugzilla reports in > Simplified Chinese than English? > Communication to developers in bugzilla needs to be in English as a matter of necessity and not because bugzilla has poor localization but realistically English is a requirement if you need to take part in direct conversations with the developers. > Mighty, might stuff. > > - Karsten Fedora for low resource systems, local Indian mirrors, a live CD and a single CD version was the most popular requests in FUDCon Delhi 2006. Popular requests arent always the right ones for Fedora but those are data points to consider. Rahul From nman64 at n-man.com Sun May 28 10:42:40 2006 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick W. Barnes) Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 05:42:40 -0500 Subject: [fab] global growth, balance In-Reply-To: <1148807029.4310.756.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> References: <1148785857.8628.269.camel@erato.phig.org> <1148807029.4310.756.camel@sundaram.pnq.redhat.com> Message-ID: <200605280542.45069.nman64@n-man.com> On Sunday 28 May 2006 04:03, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > On Sat, 2006-05-27 at 20:10 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > > From the recent board minutes: > > > > "How do we get more representation from India, South America, Middle > > East? Fedora had an excellent presence at the recent Brazilian show. > > Chris Blizzard was there. Why not think about a FUDCon in that area? In > > comparison, we don't have a community in India at the same level yet. > > Why not? Matthew challenges us to improve in these areas." > > > > Interesting observation, I had a different impression but wasn't in > > either location. How was FUDCon Delhi? I've heard that many FLOSS > > folks in India are into different projects than just distros (GNOME, for > > example), and there are many Debian/Ubuntu users. Is Fedora still a > > whisper there? > > Fedora is pretty popular and got the Linux For You magazine and > LinuxAsia best distribution awards based on user votes. From the LUG > discussions throughout India I see Fedora mentioned pretty often though > not always in a positive light. > Many of the named regions actually have large Linux followings. Linux interest in India, Brazil, Iran and many other nations is growing rapidly. Of course, there's quite a bit of room to foster and even cater to those communities. Really, we're already doing the right thing. By working to shed some of the negative ideas surrounding Fedora and to develop an internationally-friendly distribution, we're already doing the most valuable things we can. > > I'm sure the folks in Brazil have considered a FUDCon, definitely a good > > idea. > > > > What I'm curious about is: > > > > * How do we measure participation in a country/culture? > > Conversations - LUGs, magazine surveys, conference talks, community > (users and developers) presence. When our infrastructure allows us to collect more metrics, that might also give us some valuable information. Measuring participation among our project contributors can be a strong hint about the developer potential. > > > * How much responsibility do we have to intentionally enter new areas v. > > letting the interest grow from within that area itself? > > We can took at tackling specific problems on occasions. Different > regions have somewhat localized requirements at times. For example a > specific piece of obsolete Ethernet or ISDN card might be extremely > popular in Brazil or German. This is one of the key areas the regional > communities can contribute towards. Needs can vary beyond our imaginations. Listening and gathering feedback through our contributors and at conferences can shed some light on areas we can work on. For the most part, we'll find contributors in these regions that will be ready to work on their region's unique needs. > > > * How do we identify what are areas of the world to focus on? > > Whatever the community is willing to work on will get fixed. If we are > focusing on the developers, there is a lot of momentum in the developing > nations that we need to exploit. Just like the contributors we already have, new contributors will step forward from a region when that region has needs. There is a lot of developer potential in India and Brazil that we should certainly tap into. > > > * What are we doing to prepare for e.g. more bugzilla reports in > > Simplified Chinese than English? > > Communication to developers in bugzilla needs to be in English as a > matter of necessity and not because bugzilla has poor localization but > realistically English is a requirement if you need to take part in > direct conversations with the developers. I don't think maintaining most communications in English will really be a problem, but I think we can count on our community to provide middle-men when the language barrier becomes a problem. > > Fedora for low resource systems, local Indian mirrors, a live CD and a > single CD version was the most popular requests in FUDCon Delhi 2006. > Popular requests arent always the right ones for Fedora but those are > data points to consider. > Luckily, these are all areas we're working on. In addition to the normal work of our contributors, programs like the OLPC initiative will help to provide slimmed-down technologies that we can use for lightweight or embedded systems. The local mirrors are something that we generally count on volunteers for. Kadischi continues to progress, and it's only a matter of time before an official live CD becomes available. The continued revisions to Anaconda and the further progress in organizing the installation CDs will hopefully allow for more practical single-CD installations. The community continues to drive Fedora's progress in the right direction. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com http://www.n-man.com/ LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/nman64 Have I been helpful? Rate my assistance! http://rate.affero.net/nman64/ -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mspevack at redhat.com Mon May 29 21:51:25 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 17:51:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] red hat summit Message-ID: Figured I'd broadcast this here since a lot of the people who I tend to trade email with are on this list: I'll be at the Red Hat Summit this week in Nashville (a bunch of us will be), and so I'm not really going to be on IRC, and email time will be spotty, and depend on what time things tend to finish up in the evenings. For those of you who will be at the Summit, I'm looking forward to seeing you there. Hope everyone in the US had a nice holiday weekend. --Max -- Max Spevack + http://people.redhat.com/mspevack/ + gpg key -- http://people.redhat.com/mspevack/mspevack.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From blizzard at redhat.com Mon May 29 22:58:35 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 18:58:35 -0400 Subject: [fab] red hat summit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <447B7C9B.3060809@redhat.com> Max Spevack wrote: > Figured I'd broadcast this here since a lot of the people who I tend to > trade email with are on this list: > > I'll be at the Red Hat Summit this week in Nashville (a bunch of us will > be), and so I'm not really going to be on IRC, and email time will be > spotty, and depend on what time things tend to finish up in the evenings. > > For those of you who will be at the Summit, I'm looking forward to > seeing you there. > > Hope everyone in the US had a nice holiday weekend. > > --Max > Same here. --Chris From jkeating at redhat.com Tue May 30 01:50:34 2006 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 21:50:34 -0400 Subject: [fab] ubuntu launchpad now has Fedora stuff? Message-ID: <1148953835.6093.1.camel@ender> This was pointed out to me today, I don't know how new it is... https://launchpad.net/distros/fedora Releases: Fedora Core has no official releases yet. That was of interest to me... -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From wtogami at redhat.com Tue May 30 02:30:35 2006 From: wtogami at redhat.com (Warren Togami) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 22:30:35 -0400 Subject: [fab] ubuntu launchpad now has Fedora stuff? In-Reply-To: <1148953835.6093.1.camel@ender> References: <1148953835.6093.1.camel@ender> Message-ID: <447BAE4B.3090003@redhat.com> Jesse Keating wrote: > This was pointed out to me today, I don't know how new it is... > > https://launchpad.net/distros/fedora > > Releases: > Fedora Core has no official releases yet. > > That was of interest to me... > Note that although Launchpad has good ideas that we want to adapt for Fedora, Launchpad itself is not FOSS. Warren Togami wtogami at redhat.com From jkeating at redhat.com Tue May 30 02:33:44 2006 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 22:33:44 -0400 Subject: [fab] ubuntu launchpad now has Fedora stuff? In-Reply-To: <447BAE4B.3090003@redhat.com> References: <1148953835.6093.1.camel@ender> <447BAE4B.3090003@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1148956424.6093.3.camel@ender> On Mon, 2006-05-29 at 22:30 -0400, Warren Togami wrote: > Note that although Launchpad has good ideas that we want to adapt for > Fedora, Launchpad itself is not FOSS. Indeed. I'm just a bit miffed that they're running a Fedora bug capturing system, and spreading misinformation. -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From blizzard at redhat.com Tue May 30 03:03:28 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 23:03:28 -0400 Subject: [fab] ubuntu launchpad now has Fedora stuff? In-Reply-To: <1148956424.6093.3.camel@ender> References: <1148953835.6093.1.camel@ender> <447BAE4B.3090003@redhat.com> <1148956424.6093.3.camel@ender> Message-ID: <447BB600.7090309@redhat.com> Jesse Keating wrote: > On Mon, 2006-05-29 at 22:30 -0400, Warren Togami wrote: >> Note that although Launchpad has good ideas that we want to adapt for >> Fedora, Launchpad itself is not FOSS. > > Indeed. I'm just a bit miffed that they're running a Fedora bug > capturing system, and spreading misinformation. What do you mean? --Chris From rdieter at math.unl.edu Tue May 30 03:18:08 2006 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 22:18:08 -0500 Subject: [fab] ubuntu launchpad now has Fedora stuff? In-Reply-To: <447BB600.7090309@redhat.com> References: <1148953835.6093.1.camel@ender> <447BAE4B.3090003@redhat.com> <1148956424.6093.3.camel@ender> <447BB600.7090309@redhat.com> Message-ID: <447BB970.40805@math.unl.edu> Christopher Blizzard wrote: > Jesse Keating wrote: >> On Mon, 2006-05-29 at 22:30 -0400, Warren Togami wrote: >>> Note that although Launchpad has good ideas that we want to adapt for >>> Fedora, Launchpad itself is not FOSS. >> >> Indeed. I'm just a bit miffed that they're running a Fedora bug >> capturing system, and spreading misinformation. > > What do you mean? Perhaps this: https://launchpad.net/distros/fedora/+bugs -- Rex From blizzard at redhat.com Tue May 30 03:12:24 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 23:12:24 -0400 Subject: [fab] ubuntu launchpad now has Fedora stuff? In-Reply-To: <447BB970.40805@math.unl.edu> References: <1148953835.6093.1.camel@ender> <447BAE4B.3090003@redhat.com> <1148956424.6093.3.camel@ender> <447BB600.7090309@redhat.com> <447BB970.40805@math.unl.edu> Message-ID: <447BB818.6090104@redhat.com> Rex Dieter wrote: > Christopher Blizzard wrote: >> Jesse Keating wrote: >>> On Mon, 2006-05-29 at 22:30 -0400, Warren Togami wrote: >>>> Note that although Launchpad has good ideas that we want to adapt for >>>> Fedora, Launchpad itself is not FOSS. >>> Indeed. I'm just a bit miffed that they're running a Fedora bug >>> capturing system, and spreading misinformation. >> What do you mean? > > Perhaps this: > https://launchpad.net/distros/fedora/+bugs > Yeah. Launchpad as a center for information or everything, all products, all distributions. Leverage your competition to find bugs in your own product. Smart. Ubuntu as a proprietary service around free software. --Chris From jkeating at redhat.com Tue May 30 03:12:48 2006 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 23:12:48 -0400 Subject: [fab] ubuntu launchpad now has Fedora stuff? In-Reply-To: <447BB600.7090309@redhat.com> References: <1148953835.6093.1.camel@ender> <447BAE4B.3090003@redhat.com> <1148956424.6093.3.camel@ender> <447BB600.7090309@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1148958768.6093.5.camel@ender> On Mon, 2006-05-29 at 23:03 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > > Indeed. I'm just a bit miffed that they're running a Fedora bug > > capturing system, and spreading misinformation. > > What do you mean? They're listing Fedora bugs, and it would seem you could file new ones, but I could be wrong, I can't really navigate it that well. The release information is blatently wrong. No Official Releases ? -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From chitlesh at fedoraproject.org Tue May 30 05:30:37 2006 From: chitlesh at fedoraproject.org (Chitlesh GOORAH) Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 07:30:37 +0200 Subject: [fab] ubuntu launchpad now has Fedora stuff? In-Reply-To: <447BAE4B.3090003@redhat.com> References: <1148953835.6093.1.camel@ender> <447BAE4B.3090003@redhat.com> Message-ID: <13dbfe4f0605292230p2c1e02e5k880eb5d4f61100e0@mail.gmail.com> On 5/30/06, Warren Togami wrote: > Note that although Launchpad has good ideas that we want to adapt for > Fedora, Launchpad itself is not FOSS. I have heard lately that they are trying to market that mechanism through bug tracking of other distros example that of Fedora. -- http://clunixchit.blogspot.com From bob at bobjensen.com Wed May 31 14:27:43 2006 From: bob at bobjensen.com (Robert 'Bob' Jensen) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 09:27:43 -0500 Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: References: <200605151705.k4FH5MXS019332@ludwig-alpha.unil.ch> <4468B65A.4030605@redhat.com> <4468B6F1.5010906@redhat.com> <1147713926.8578.15.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <4468C837.6060609@bobjensen.com> Message-ID: <447DA7DF.2020702@bobjensen.com> Max Spevack wrote: > > Mark is on this list. We should be able to get his legal viewpoint > quite easily. > > FC5 + Updates is all packages that live under the "Fedora" blessing. > > I'd like for us to be able to use the official Fedora logo on it -- if > we call it Fedora Core 5, Update 1 or something else -- that naming is > something we can work on. > > Effectively, aren't we giving an updated snapshot of FC5 -- the one that > people would get if the installed FC5 Gold and then ran yum update? So > we're saving people time/bandwidth, and they get the same bits. I want > to call that Fedora. > Release is now eminent. Can I get a final confirmation that we can call this "Fedora Core " Re-Spin is what the community has been calling this type of work, our current ISOs are named with respin in the file name. This can easily be changed later. -- Robert 'Bob' Jensen * * http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BobJensen gpg fingerprint: F9F4 7243 4243 0043 2C45 97AF E8A4 C3AE 42EB 0BC6 Fedora Unity Project * bob at fedoraunity.org * http://fedoraunity.org/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 251 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From matt at domsch.com Wed May 31 21:05:42 2006 From: matt at domsch.com (Matt Domsch) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 16:05:42 -0500 Subject: [fab] discussion topics for red hat ceo In-Reply-To: <447DA7DF.2020702@bobjensen.com> References: <200605151705.k4FH5MXS019332@ludwig-alpha.unil.ch> <4468B65A.4030605@redhat.com> <4468B6F1.5010906@redhat.com> <1147713926.8578.15.camel@dhcp83-49.boston.redhat.com> <4468C837.6060609@bobjensen.com> <447DA7DF.2020702@bobjensen.com> Message-ID: <20060531210542.GB15548@domsch.com> On Wed, May 31, 2006 at 09:27:43AM -0500, Robert 'Bob' Jensen wrote: > Max Spevack wrote: > > > > Mark is on this list. We should be able to get his legal viewpoint > > quite easily. > > > > FC5 + Updates is all packages that live under the "Fedora" blessing. > > > > I'd like for us to be able to use the official Fedora logo on it -- if > > we call it Fedora Core 5, Update 1 or something else -- that naming is > > something we can work on. > > > > Effectively, aren't we giving an updated snapshot of FC5 -- the one that > > people would get if the installed FC5 Gold and then ran yum update? So > > we're saving people time/bandwidth, and they get the same bits. I want > > to call that Fedora. > > > > Release is now eminent. Can I get a final confirmation that we can call > this "Fedora Core " Re-Spin > is what the community has been calling this type of work, our current > ISOs are named with respin in the file name. This can easily be changed > later. RHEL uses the "Update N" language. SuSE and others use "Service Pack N" language. both of these have some form of scheduled Updates though, so the number has meaning in that context. If this is just the snapshot of Core + /updates/* directory stuff as of a given date, how about "Fedora Core Updated " http://fedora.redhat.com/about/trademarks/guidelines/page4.html would seem to allow it to be called "Fedora Core Updated " so long as all of the software is identical to that found on the Fedora Project web site (signed by the Fedora keys I'm sure). My say isn't final, but that's what I'd think. Thanks, Matt From bob at cbccgroup.com Wed May 31 14:04:02 2006 From: bob at cbccgroup.com (Robert 'Bob' Jensen) Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 09:04:02 -0500 Subject: [fab] Fedora Core Updates -- "respins" In-Reply-To: <1147877523.10822.3.camel@cutter> References: <4468D10D.2010600@bobjensen.com> <1147876970.2457.414.camel@erato.phig.org> <1147877523.10822.3.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <447DA252.4050801@cbccgroup.com> seth vidal wrote: > Torrent is definitely an option and if there are people willing to > becareful we can setup things to let other people make the torrents. > Just like we did w/some of the gnome people. > > -sv We think we have everything ready, Seth if you can contact me off list or on IRC (BobJensen). I would love to know how we can get started. -- Robert 'Bob' Jensen * * Owner * * bob at cbccgroup.com gpg fingerprint: F9F4 7243 4243 0043 2C45 97AF E8A4 C3AE 42EB 0BC6 Complete Business Computer Consulting * * http://cbccgroup.com/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 251 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: