From laroche at redhat.com Sun Oct 1 06:25:28 2006 From: laroche at redhat.com (Florian La Roche) Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 08:25:28 +0200 Subject: [fab] OpenID: an actually distributed identity system In-Reply-To: <1159623186.15089.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1159360917.4346.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> <451A7438.1000909@fedoraproject.org> <1159584446.19689.82.camel@erato.phig.org> <1159585920.2153.0.camel@cutter> <1159623186.15089.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20061001062528.GA3205@dudweiler.stuttgart.redhat.com> > I believe the OpenID 2.0 standard (now in draft) does include some > signature capability from the ID provider to the target site. But Seth > is right, the point of OpenID is not to prove that you are who you say > you are -- it's to prove that you're the same person who a URL says you > are (i.e. the owner). > > Unless we have a way of trusting the authentication mechanism of the ID > provider, that information is not as useful as a GPG signature could be. > But on the other hand, right now we don't even require a key to be > signed by a mutually trusted third party, so anyone can create an email > address and a key, and fraudulently sign the CLA. So I would question > that OpenID is really a lower standard than what we have now. Maybe http://cacert.org/ could be added to the Fedora infrastructure to get more trust into who we add to Fedora? regards, Florian La Roche From smooge at gmail.com Sun Oct 1 13:26:24 2006 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 07:26:24 -0600 Subject: [fab] FSF Licensing Audit Status In-Reply-To: <20060930025239.GA4841@domsch.com> References: <1155594111.5633.33.camel@localhost.localdomain> <451D645F.2000606@math.unl.edu> <451D6592.20604@redhat.com> <451D673A.9080607@math.unl.edu> <1159584546.19689.84.camel@erato.phig.org> <20060930025239.GA4841@domsch.com> Message-ID: <80d7e4090610010626s367302fcr53cdc7c26e072c75@mail.gmail.com> On 9/29/06, Matt Domsch wrote: > On Fri, Sep 29, 2006 at 07:49:06PM -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > > Oh, man, you had Chris excited there for a second. He was all ready to > > return to his Pine. > > Gotta love mutt with pine keybindings. :-) > Its not the keybindings, its the look. I could never get mutt to look like pine enough to not feel like I was using well mutt. -- Stephen J Smoogen. -- CSIRT/Linux System Administrator How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice" From mmcgrath at fedoraproject.org Sun Oct 1 21:33:42 2006 From: mmcgrath at fedoraproject.org (Mike McGrath) Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 16:33:42 -0500 Subject: [fab] Master Mirror List Control Message-ID: <3237e4410610011433t70e4be34v5442294a7689cc79@mail.gmail.com> At present the master mirrors list is on a Red Hat server. I'm not sure who maintains it: http://fedora.redhat.com/download/mirrors/ Should we move this to a Fedora server? With FC6 coming out all installs will default to pointing to mirrors.fedoraproject.org. That box basically takes its list from the fedora.redhat.com list and checks the mirrors for freshness / availability. Another issue that has come up is, for example, the request for an extras-devel-source repo. Its in rawhide, but extras-devel-source does not exist in the master list. (see https://admin.fedoraproject.org/tickets/customer.pl?Action=CustomerTicketZoom&TicketID=121 ticket# 2006091510000015 for more info) Thoughts? -Mike From jkeating at redhat.com Sun Oct 1 21:39:59 2006 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 17:39:59 -0400 Subject: [fab] Master Mirror List Control In-Reply-To: <3237e4410610011433t70e4be34v5442294a7689cc79@mail.gmail.com> References: <3237e4410610011433t70e4be34v5442294a7689cc79@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200610011739.59233.jkeating@redhat.com> On Sunday 01 October 2006 17:33, Mike McGrath wrote: > At present the master mirrors list is on a Red Hat server. ?I'm not > sure who maintains it: > > http://fedora.redhat.com/download/mirrors/ > > Should we move this to a Fedora server? ?With FC6 coming out all > installs will default to pointing to mirrors.fedoraproject.org. ?That > box basically takes its list from the fedora.redhat.com list and > checks the mirrors for freshness / availability. > > Another issue that has come up is, for example, the request for an > extras-devel-source repo. ?Its in rawhide, but extras-devel-source > does not exist in the master list. > (see > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/tickets/customer.pl?Action=CustomerTicketZo >om&TicketID=121 ticket# 2006091510000015 for more info) Currently I and a couple volunteers maintain the list. I really don't care where it lives, and moving it away from fedora.redhat.com is one more thing we can check off the list for retiring fedora.redhat.com. So yea, count me as a +1 for having it on fedoraproject.org -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rdieter at math.unl.edu Sun Oct 1 21:58:24 2006 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2006 16:58:24 -0500 Subject: [fab] Master Mirror List Control In-Reply-To: <200610011739.59233.jkeating@redhat.com> References: <3237e4410610011433t70e4be34v5442294a7689cc79@mail.gmail.com> <200610011739.59233.jkeating@redhat.com> Message-ID: <45203A00.2030500@math.unl.edu> Jesse Keating wrote: > On Sunday 01 October 2006 17:33, Mike McGrath wrote: >> At present the master mirrors list is on a Red Hat server. I'm not >> sure who maintains it: >> >> http://fedora.redhat.com/download/mirrors/ >> >> Should we move this to a Fedora server? With FC6 coming out all >> installs will default to pointing to mirrors.fedoraproject.org. That >> box basically takes its list from the fedora.redhat.com list and >> checks the mirrors for freshness / availability. ... > ... I really don't care > where it lives, and moving it away from fedora.redhat.com is one more thing > we can check off the list for retiring fedora.redhat.com. So yea, count me > as a +1 for having it on fedoraproject.org +infinity -- Rex From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Sun Oct 1 21:56:00 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2006 17:56:00 -0400 Subject: [fab] Master Mirror List Control In-Reply-To: <3237e4410610011433t70e4be34v5442294a7689cc79@mail.gmail.com> References: <3237e4410610011433t70e4be34v5442294a7689cc79@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1159739760.5515.35.camel@cutter> On Sun, 2006-10-01 at 16:33 -0500, Mike McGrath wrote: > At present the master mirrors list is on a Red Hat server. I'm not > sure who maintains it: > > http://fedora.redhat.com/download/mirrors/ > > Should we move this to a Fedora server? With FC6 coming out all > installs will default to pointing to mirrors.fedoraproject.org. That > box basically takes its list from the fedora.redhat.com list and > checks the mirrors for freshness / availability. > > Another issue that has come up is, for example, the request for an > extras-devel-source repo. Its in rawhide, but extras-devel-source > does not exist in the master list. > (see https://admin.fedoraproject.org/tickets/customer.pl?Action=CustomerTicketZoom&TicketID=121 > ticket# 2006091510000015 for more info) > 2 thoughts: 1. maybe mirrors.fedoraproject.org should be hosted on more than one machine that are on different networks - so that network inaccessibility doesn't break everyone, everywhere. (ie: one at duke, one at phx) 2. +1 to moving it off of fedora.redhat.com -sv From mmcgrath at fedoraproject.org Sun Oct 1 22:33:36 2006 From: mmcgrath at fedoraproject.org (Mike McGrath) Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 17:33:36 -0500 Subject: [fab] Master Mirror List Control In-Reply-To: <1159739760.5515.35.camel@cutter> References: <3237e4410610011433t70e4be34v5442294a7689cc79@mail.gmail.com> <1159739760.5515.35.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <3237e4410610011533n2f1cb58dq3d319867a9bc5608@mail.gmail.com> On 10/1/06, seth vidal wrote: > On Sun, 2006-10-01 at 16:33 -0500, Mike McGrath wrote: > > At present the master mirrors list is on a Red Hat server. I'm not > > sure who maintains it: > > > > http://fedora.redhat.com/download/mirrors/ > > > > Should we move this to a Fedora server? With FC6 coming out all > > installs will default to pointing to mirrors.fedoraproject.org. That > > box basically takes its list from the fedora.redhat.com list and > > checks the mirrors for freshness / availability. > > > > Another issue that has come up is, for example, the request for an > > extras-devel-source repo. Its in rawhide, but extras-devel-source > > does not exist in the master list. > > (see https://admin.fedoraproject.org/tickets/customer.pl?Action=CustomerTicketZoom&TicketID=121 > > ticket# 2006091510000015 for more info) > > > > 2 thoughts: > 1. maybe mirrors.fedoraproject.org should be hosted on more than one > machine that are on different networks - so that network inaccessibility > doesn't break everyone, everywhere. (ie: one at duke, one at phx) > 2. +1 to moving it off of fedora.redhat.com > > -sv > +1 shouldn't be to difficult to do. I'll add it to my todo list. -Mike From matt at domsch.com Mon Oct 2 03:56:15 2006 From: matt at domsch.com (Matt Domsch) Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 22:56:15 -0500 Subject: [fab] OpenID: an actually distributed identity system In-Reply-To: <1159362110.6281.17.camel@cutter> References: <1159360917.4346.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1159362110.6281.17.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <20061002035615.GB4760@domsch.com> On Wed, Sep 27, 2006 at 09:01:50AM -0400, seth vidal wrote: > On Wed, 2006-09-27 at 08:41 -0400, Michael Tiemann wrote: > > I saw OpenID ( http://openid.net/ ) presented and demonstrated at > > EuroOSCON last week--it looked really cool. My reason for writing this > > morning is because on another list (grass-dev at grass.itc.it) developers > > are bemoaning the problem of (1) spam in their bugtracker, and (2) their > > desire to keep the bugtracker open and not require that users sign up > > for an account before using the system. > > > > I understand there is a similar question being discussed about just how > > open to make the Fedora Wiki (not the CVS repository, but the Wiki). > > > > I, too, hate the fact that I have to manage so many identities on the > > web, and I, too, wish there were a decent single sign-on for me to use > > with my favorite websites. I'd like to suggest OpenID as a possible > > candidate for solving that problem and see whether enough people on this > > list agree to push it into the Fedora infrastructure. > > - moinmoin has been 'openid enabled' - but only in 1.5.X - not the > version we're using right now - 1.3.X. We should be able to move to it - > but it will be an involved process, I'm sure. Not the least of which is > getting all the people to now create openid accounts. And this says > nothing of the need for the CLA that we require. > > - mailman - it has been openid enabled but not in the upstream release. > Patches are available. > > - bugzilla appears to be completely out in the cold which means there > would be a need for someone to do the programming and, theoretically, > submitting the patches upstream. Patches for Plone are set to be released by the end of October at their development conference. > So we'd have to refit a good portion of our infrastructure (some of > which also serves @redhat.com not just fedora) and we'd have to get our > users to migrate to the new login mechanism. I'm not saying it's > impossible but I think we're looking at a development time and migration > path that IF we have people willing to undertake it will take greater > than a year. No doubt. From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Mon Oct 2 04:03:34 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2006 00:03:34 -0400 Subject: [fab] OpenID: an actually distributed identity system In-Reply-To: <20061002035615.GB4760@domsch.com> References: <1159360917.4346.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1159362110.6281.17.camel@cutter> <20061002035615.GB4760@domsch.com> Message-ID: <1159761814.5515.68.camel@cutter> On Sun, 2006-10-01 at 22:56 -0500, Matt Domsch wrote: > On Wed, Sep 27, 2006 at 09:01:50AM -0400, seth vidal wrote: > > On Wed, 2006-09-27 at 08:41 -0400, Michael Tiemann wrote: > > > I saw OpenID ( http://openid.net/ ) presented and demonstrated at > > > EuroOSCON last week--it looked really cool. My reason for writing this > > > morning is because on another list (grass-dev at grass.itc.it) developers > > > are bemoaning the problem of (1) spam in their bugtracker, and (2) their > > > desire to keep the bugtracker open and not require that users sign up > > > for an account before using the system. > > > > > > I understand there is a similar question being discussed about just how > > > open to make the Fedora Wiki (not the CVS repository, but the Wiki). > > > > > > I, too, hate the fact that I have to manage so many identities on the > > > web, and I, too, wish there were a decent single sign-on for me to use > > > with my favorite websites. I'd like to suggest OpenID as a possible > > > candidate for solving that problem and see whether enough people on this > > > list agree to push it into the Fedora infrastructure. > > > > - moinmoin has been 'openid enabled' - but only in 1.5.X - not the > > version we're using right now - 1.3.X. We should be able to move to it - > > but it will be an involved process, I'm sure. Not the least of which is > > getting all the people to now create openid accounts. And this says > > nothing of the need for the CLA that we require. > > > > - mailman - it has been openid enabled but not in the upstream release. > > Patches are available. > > > > - bugzilla appears to be completely out in the cold which means there > > would be a need for someone to do the programming and, theoretically, > > submitting the patches upstream. > > Patches for Plone are set to be released by the end of October at > their development conference. > Do we actually USE plone for anything? B/c I'll be damned if I can figure out when we're using it. :) -sv From kwade at redhat.com Mon Oct 2 18:40:04 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2006 11:40:04 -0700 Subject: [fab] OpenID: an actually distributed identity system In-Reply-To: <1159761814.5515.68.camel@cutter> References: <1159360917.4346.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1159362110.6281.17.camel@cutter> <20061002035615.GB4760@domsch.com> <1159761814.5515.68.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1159814404.19689.195.camel@erato.phig.org> On Mon, 2006-10-02 at 00:03 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > Do we actually USE plone for anything? B/c I'll be damned if I can > figure out when we're using it. :) Here is the status on it: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/PloneToDo Bottom line -- resources needed to get it up and running. FDP **really** wants this ASAP. The FDP use cases we want to see enabled: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/PloneIssues - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Mon Oct 2 18:45:32 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2006 11:45:32 -0700 Subject: [fab] Master Mirror List Control In-Reply-To: <200610011739.59233.jkeating@redhat.com> References: <3237e4410610011433t70e4be34v5442294a7689cc79@mail.gmail.com> <200610011739.59233.jkeating@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1159814732.19689.198.camel@erato.phig.org> On Sun, 2006-10-01 at 17:39 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > Currently I and a couple volunteers maintain the list. I really don't care > where it lives, and moving it away from fedora.redhat.com is one more thing > we can check off the list for retiring fedora.redhat.com. So yea, count me > as a +1 for having it on fedoraproject.org Note that the f.r.c location requires the PHP + CVS tag'd LIVE magic to work, so has been a barrier to getting help there. So, it isn't really enough to just move it. You need a plan to maintain it in the new location. This, using Plone. Is it ready for this? Otherwise, Mike + FI are going to need to be the manual process in between f13 + eitch + friends. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mmcgrath at fedoraproject.org Mon Oct 2 19:03:48 2006 From: mmcgrath at fedoraproject.org (Mike McGrath) Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 14:03:48 -0500 Subject: [fab] Master Mirror List Control In-Reply-To: <1159814732.19689.198.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <3237e4410610011433t70e4be34v5442294a7689cc79@mail.gmail.com> <200610011739.59233.jkeating@redhat.com> <1159814732.19689.198.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <3237e4410610021203w41a56c9ja1180cee4e56e6c2@mail.gmail.com> On 10/2/06, Karsten Wade wrote: > > Note that the f.r.c location requires the PHP + CVS tag'd LIVE magic to > work, so has been a barrier to getting help there. > > So, it isn't really enough to just move it. You need a plan to maintain > it in the new location. This, using Plone. Is it ready for this? > Otherwise, Mike + FI are going to need to be the manual process in > between f13 + eitch + friends. > > - Karsten You're mostly talking security here? For example: only approved mirrors make the list and how do we know that a mirror is approved? -Mike From kwade at redhat.com Mon Oct 2 22:27:06 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2006 15:27:06 -0700 Subject: [fab] Master Mirror List Control In-Reply-To: <3237e4410610021203w41a56c9ja1180cee4e56e6c2@mail.gmail.com> References: <3237e4410610011433t70e4be34v5442294a7689cc79@mail.gmail.com> <200610011739.59233.jkeating@redhat.com> <1159814732.19689.198.camel@erato.phig.org> <3237e4410610021203w41a56c9ja1180cee4e56e6c2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1159828026.19689.282.camel@erato.phig.org> On Mon, 2006-10-02 at 14:03 -0500, Mike McGrath wrote: > On 10/2/06, Karsten Wade wrote: > > > > Note that the f.r.c location requires the PHP + CVS tag'd LIVE magic to > > work, so has been a barrier to getting help there. > > > > So, it isn't really enough to just move it. You need a plan to maintain > > it in the new location. This, using Plone. Is it ready for this? > > Otherwise, Mike + FI are going to need to be the manual process in > > between f13 + eitch + friends. > > > > - Karsten > > You're mostly talking security here? For example: only approved > mirrors make the list and how do we know that a mirror is approved? For the goal of having some workflow tools, sure. But what I was specifically referring to was the idea of moving the mirror list right now. Without a solution such as Plone or the f.r.c PHP stuff, all updates to the list have to go through FI, probably filed as a ticket, right? - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mmcgrath at fedoraproject.org Tue Oct 3 00:42:44 2006 From: mmcgrath at fedoraproject.org (Mike McGrath) Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 19:42:44 -0500 Subject: [fab] Master Mirror List Control In-Reply-To: <1159828026.19689.282.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <3237e4410610011433t70e4be34v5442294a7689cc79@mail.gmail.com> <200610011739.59233.jkeating@redhat.com> <1159814732.19689.198.camel@erato.phig.org> <3237e4410610021203w41a56c9ja1180cee4e56e6c2@mail.gmail.com> <1159828026.19689.282.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <3237e4410610021742v24988745if060512fdbecab50@mail.gmail.com> On 10/2/06, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Mon, 2006-10-02 at 14:03 -0500, Mike McGrath wrote: > > On 10/2/06, Karsten Wade wrote: > > > > > > Note that the f.r.c location requires the PHP + CVS tag'd LIVE magic to > > > work, so has been a barrier to getting help there. > > > > > > So, it isn't really enough to just move it. You need a plan to maintain > > > it in the new location. This, using Plone. Is it ready for this? > > > Otherwise, Mike + FI are going to need to be the manual process in > > > between f13 + eitch + friends. > > > > > > - Karsten > > > > You're mostly talking security here? For example: only approved > > mirrors make the list and how do we know that a mirror is approved? > > For the goal of having some workflow tools, sure. > > But what I was specifically referring to was the idea of moving the > mirror list right now. Without a solution such as Plone or the f.r.c > PHP stuff, all updates to the list have to go through FI, probably filed > as a ticket, right? > > - Karsten Yeah, we'd file that. I'll work to make sure this happens prior to the FC6 final release. -Mike From kwade at redhat.com Wed Oct 4 22:46:05 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 15:46:05 -0700 Subject: [fab] finalizing the privacy policy Message-ID: <1160001965.4193.294.camel@erato.phig.org> We are going to want to link to the Fedora privacy policy from the /usr/share/doc/HTML/index.html splash page as part of the info about the tracker used. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal/PrivacyPolicy I seem to recall Mark Webbink having looked this over, but I'm not sure. Either way, it is marked DRAFT and needs to be finalized in the next seven days. Is this something that should be/have been linked from the EULA? - Karsten, NAL -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From bob at bobjensen.com Thu Oct 5 00:19:19 2006 From: bob at bobjensen.com (Robert 'Bob' Jensen) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 19:19:19 -0500 Subject: [fab] [Fwd: Re: Firefox splash page tracker] Message-ID: <45244F87.9080601@bobjensen.com> I am forwarding this here, I feel that the placement of a tracking image on the default browser page is in bad form. I do not think it should happen for the FC6 release. If we need to generate numbers lets set a priority 1 task to the community to figure out a better way. For more info on this subject please see the discussion on the Fedora-Docs-List -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: Firefox splash page tracker Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 03:33:42 +0100 From: Dimitris Glezos Reply-To: dimitris at glezos.com, For participants of the Documentation Project To: Karsten Wade CC: fedora-docs-list at redhat.com References: <1159474492.13299.139.camel at erato.phig.org> O/H Karsten Wade ??????: > Dimitris: > > We just got a last-minute idea from Max Spevack et al, to put a hit > tracker on the splash page. A box in the upper corner/somewhere like > below[1]. Karsten, Max, et al, I believe the addition of such a tracker (solution 1) will have a bad impact on the image of the Fedora Project on our users, which will not be worth the information gained from this addition. I'll try to elaborate my thoughts. Trackers ======== Such trackers were always faced with bad criticism. This takes place with every equipment used for tracking: emails containing notices like "the sender asked to be notified when you read this email", cameras in the streets and shops, security checks in airports, digital IDs, RFIDs, even Credit Cards. People even feel irritated with phrases like "this conversation will be recorded for training purposes". They usually don't behave the same, even if they were guaranteed that the data will be trashed right after the event. I admit to be quite a bit irritated when I get messages from webpages saying "Hi. You are 84.9.192, you are using Firefox 1.5 on Linux" even though *I know* that my browser does expose this information. I know this is silly, but even though I know it happens, I don't like hearing it. Notifying me that it does happen makes things worse. BTW this is not a matter of conspiracy theories: It's just that I like websites that don't do this or remind me that it is done more than those which do. The user's desktop is like his digital home. It's private, it's exposed to dangers from intruders, the user is bound to it in a very special way. Applications that somehow used the Internet for a reason the company saw fit were always badly criticized from the users. I believe that's why, even today, 99% of the proprietary applications don't use the connection to the Internet to check if the software is cracked. Other solutions =============== So, the question is: Is it worth it? Well, my opinion is that it is *not* and the extra information will not be much more worth than, say, the visits to our website. But let's say it does. One approach would be to reduce the fuss about it: Add a 1x1 image somewhere on the page that comes from the net (solution 2). User won't be told so he won't have the chance to think our motivations are bad (which of course aren't). This "secret" approach will also have a bad impact on our image (this time in the media shouting about user privacy). But: a) some people will think "big deal, it's just a pixel, the guys want to count their users" and b) at least 95% of the users won't find out about it, which probably is not bad because we are not doing anything wrong. Another line of thinking (better) is that we can count users in other ways, less intrusive, just like other projects do. And, in addition, some of these ways provide more information than the tracker one. For example, we could ask the user to send us a ping during the first boot of the system (solution 3). Package `firstboot` could say something like: > We would like to count the users of Fedora. You could send us a ping which > will be more or less like saying to us "Hi guys!". Would you like to send us > a ping then? (Please do!) > > ["Hi guys!"] > > If not, you can click "Next" to continue to the next page. If we need to count more than systems that re/installed FC6, and, say, count unique users, we could have that message on top of the splash page (solution 4). Whatever the users clicks, a cookie stores her choice in a cookie so that she won't be asked again. Finally, the most useful and non-intrusive approach (solution 5) is to ask the user fill a short questionnaire. More helpful data than any other approach, less suspicious intentions. Summary of solutions -------------------- 1. Original suggestion: image on splash page with description. 2. Tiny invisible image with no description. 3. Ping from Firstboot. 4. Ping from splash (once). 5. Questionnaire from firstboot or splash. Accuracy -------- None of the solutions give has any accuracy on the number of users using Fedora. Analytically the solutions: 1,2: The image could be put in any webpage and the users with dynamic IPs would be counted as multiple users. 3: Doesn't count upgrades to FC6 and also gives option of just clicking "next". 4: Suffers like 1: multiple locations could point there and people who clear their cookies often will see the message over and over. 5: Like 4, but a bit better because the bogus calls will be fewer. Conclusion ========== To summarize a very long email (sorry): I believe users would like it better if we did not use their desktop to track anything or ask them any such question. I wasn't convinced that the value it will give the project will be worth the cost of the image of the project. I'm sorry but I feel this is a very delicate matter that touches sensitive chords and fragile nerves. Actions like these sometimes make people feel that their privacy was disturbed or their personal normal lives intruded for third-party benefits. If I had to choose from the solutions, I would go for the most "human"/less intrusive one, #5 (the questionnaire). Sorry again for the length of the email. -dim > I know this is going to be untranslated, but we can catch it in an > update to the package, and many people won't get a translated page, > anyway. The value this gives the whole project is very worth the > effort. > > [1] Please add the following: > > ######### Begin Box ################################################# >
>

> Hey, Fedora users! We are trying to figure out how many desktop users > we have. We are using a simple image to count the number of hits we get > from unique IP addresses. We are not tracking any identifiable > information. >

>

> This image right here: >

> blue > tracking dot >

> ...is being used for that purpose. If you see the image, that means > you are online, and you have been counted. If you do not see the image, > it is because you are offline, and the image cannot load. >

>

> Why is this important? Because we need to know how many users we have, > which helps help us fund innovations to Fedora. >

>
> ######### End Box #################################################### > > How does that sound? Any alteration suggestions? > > Thanks - Karsten -- Dimitris Glezos Jabber ID: glezos at jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B http://dimitris.glezos.com/ "He who gives up functionality for ease of use loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous) -- -- fedora-docs-list mailing list fedora-docs-list at redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list -- Robert 'Bob' Jensen * * http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BobJensen gpg fingerprint: F9F4 7243 4243 0043 2C45 97AF E8A4 C3AE 42EB 0BC6 Fedora Unity Project * bob at fedoraunity.org * http://fedoraunity.org/ From bob at bobjensen.com Thu Oct 5 01:13:20 2006 From: bob at bobjensen.com (Robert 'Bob' Jensen) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 20:13:20 -0500 Subject: [fab] Fedora Splash Page Tracker Message-ID: <45245C30.70500@bobjensen.com> My other message on this subject was greylisted by the redhat servers not sure if it will make it through. https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list has has some discussion about placing a tracking image in the Default Home page in Firefox. I personally think this is a bad idea I would urge you to read the thread titled "Firefox splash page tracker" from Sept 28 til Today. -- Robert 'Bob' Jensen * * http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BobJensen gpg fingerprint: F9F4 7243 4243 0043 2C45 97AF E8A4 C3AE 42EB 0BC6 Fedora Unity Project * bob at fedoraunity.org * http://fedoraunity.org/ From mmcgrath at fedoraproject.org Thu Oct 5 02:13:54 2006 From: mmcgrath at fedoraproject.org (Mike McGrath) Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 21:13:54 -0500 Subject: [fab] Fedora Splash Page Tracker In-Reply-To: <45245C30.70500@bobjensen.com> References: <45245C30.70500@bobjensen.com> Message-ID: <3237e4410610041913h422b918ctb2e906a7af65cb14@mail.gmail.com> On 10/4/06, Robert 'Bob' Jensen wrote: > My other message on this subject was greylisted by the redhat servers > not sure if it will make it through. > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-docs-list has has some > discussion about placing a tracking image in the Default Home page in > Firefox. I personally think this is a bad idea I would urge you to read > the thread titled "Firefox splash page tracker" from Sept 28 til Today. > Maybe not completely related but still relevant, we are getting information from the mirrors.fedoraproject.org site. It's certainly not perfect but its something. Its also non-evasive because its a side effect of a service we provide. -Mike From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Thu Oct 5 02:17:29 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 22:17:29 -0400 Subject: [fab] Re: Firefox splash page tracker Message-ID: <1160014650.16598.5.camel@cutter> hey guys, The goal of this tracker is to determine how many folks we have installing fedora, right? If we can assume that it is likely that a user will be using yum/pirut/puplet in a default install then we should be able to gather the information on how many folks are using it (hence installing fedora) from the mirrors.fedoraproject.org mirrorlist generating program. It'll track hits against it and we can then mine those logs for the number of users w/o obtaining much other information than 'they used yum/pirut/puplet'. It also requires nothing of us other than putting a log watcher on fedoraproject.org. -sv From blizzard at redhat.com Thu Oct 5 03:39:12 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 23:39:12 -0400 Subject: [fab] Re: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: <1160014650.16598.5.camel@cutter> References: <1160014650.16598.5.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <45247E60.5050901@redhat.com> seth vidal wrote: > hey guys, > The goal of this tracker is to determine how many folks we have > installing fedora, right? > > If we can assume that it is likely that a user will be using > yum/pirut/puplet in a default install then we should be able to gather > the information on how many folks are using it (hence installing fedora) > from the mirrors.fedoraproject.org mirrorlist generating program. It'll > track hits against it and we can then mine those logs for the number of > users w/o obtaining much other information than 'they used > yum/pirut/puplet'. > > It also requires nothing of us other than putting a log watcher on > fedoraproject.org. Does that track unique users or just hits? Hits isn't that interesting. Unique visitors is. --Chris From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Thu Oct 5 04:01:48 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 00:01:48 -0400 Subject: [fab] Re: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: <45247E60.5050901@redhat.com> References: <1160014650.16598.5.camel@cutter> <45247E60.5050901@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1160020908.16598.35.camel@cutter> On Wed, 2006-10-04 at 23:39 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > seth vidal wrote: > > hey guys, > > The goal of this tracker is to determine how many folks we have > > installing fedora, right? > > > > If we can assume that it is likely that a user will be using > > yum/pirut/puplet in a default install then we should be able to gather > > the information on how many folks are using it (hence installing fedora) > > from the mirrors.fedoraproject.org mirrorlist generating program. It'll > > track hits against it and we can then mine those logs for the number of > > users w/o obtaining much other information than 'they used > > yum/pirut/puplet'. > > > > It also requires nothing of us other than putting a log watcher on > > fedoraproject.org. > > > Does that track unique users or just hits? Hits isn't that interesting. > Unique visitors is. it's just a url running under apache. It tracks what apache tracks whenever someone hits a page. So, yes, definitely tracking unique visitors. -sv From gdk at redhat.com Thu Oct 5 04:05:36 2006 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 00:05:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Re: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: <1160020908.16598.35.camel@cutter> References: <1160014650.16598.5.camel@cutter> <45247E60.5050901@redhat.com> <1160020908.16598.35.camel@cutter> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Oct 2006, seth vidal wrote: > On Wed, 2006-10-04 at 23:39 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > > seth vidal wrote: > > > hey guys, > > > The goal of this tracker is to determine how many folks we have > > > installing fedora, right? > > > > > > If we can assume that it is likely that a user will be using > > > yum/pirut/puplet in a default install then we should be able to gather > > > the information on how many folks are using it (hence installing fedora) > > > from the mirrors.fedoraproject.org mirrorlist generating program. It'll > > > track hits against it and we can then mine those logs for the number of > > > users w/o obtaining much other information than 'they used > > > yum/pirut/puplet'. > > > > > > It also requires nothing of us other than putting a log watcher on > > > fedoraproject.org. > > > > > > Does that track unique users or just hits? Hits isn't that interesting. > > Unique visitors is. > > it's just a url running under apache. It tracks what apache tracks > whenever someone hits a page. So, yes, definitely tracking unique > visitors. I'm perfectly happy to have a good answer that isn't as politically charged as putting an image on a web page -- so long as it gets us comparably useful data. So let's be clear about what the two scenarios would count: In the Firefox homepage scenario, we would count every unique IP for everyone who opens a browser window while connected. In the Yum mirror tracker scenario, we would count every unique IP for everyone who ever runs yum and talks to any repo. Do I understand correctly? --g ------------------------------------------------------------- Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Project || fedoraproject.org Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors ------------------------------------------------------------- From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Thu Oct 5 04:15:38 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 00:15:38 -0400 Subject: [fab] Re: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: References: <1160014650.16598.5.camel@cutter> <45247E60.5050901@redhat.com> <1160020908.16598.35.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1160021738.16598.37.camel@cutter> On Thu, 2006-10-05 at 00:05 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > I'm perfectly happy to have a good answer that isn't as politically > charged as putting an image on a web page -- so long as it gets us > comparably useful data. > > So let's be clear about what the two scenarios would count: > > In the Firefox homepage scenario, we would count every unique IP for > everyone who opens a browser window while connected. > > In the Yum mirror tracker scenario, we would count every unique IP for > everyone who ever runs yum and talks to any repo. yum or any of the tools using that url, yes. yum, pirut, puplet, yum-updatesd > > Do I understand correctly? more or less, yes. -sv From blizzard at redhat.com Thu Oct 5 04:16:45 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 00:16:45 -0400 Subject: [fab] Re: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: <1160020908.16598.35.camel@cutter> References: <1160014650.16598.5.camel@cutter> <45247E60.5050901@redhat.com> <1160020908.16598.35.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <4524872D.4020907@redhat.com> seth vidal wrote: > On Wed, 2006-10-04 at 23:39 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: >> seth vidal wrote: >>> hey guys, >>> The goal of this tracker is to determine how many folks we have >>> installing fedora, right? >>> >>> If we can assume that it is likely that a user will be using >>> yum/pirut/puplet in a default install then we should be able to gather >>> the information on how many folks are using it (hence installing fedora) >>> from the mirrors.fedoraproject.org mirrorlist generating program. It'll >>> track hits against it and we can then mine those logs for the number of >>> users w/o obtaining much other information than 'they used >>> yum/pirut/puplet'. >>> >>> It also requires nothing of us other than putting a log watcher on >>> fedoraproject.org. >> >> Does that track unique users or just hits? Hits isn't that interesting. >> Unique visitors is. > > it's just a url running under apache. It tracks what apache tracks > whenever someone hits a page. So, yes, definitely tracking unique > visitors. There are only two ways that I know of to track unique visitors. 1. Cookies or 2. Explicit registration (or registration behind the scenes.) I suspect you're thinking of unique IPs (as greg mentions in other email?) Or do pup + friends track using cookies? --Chris From bob at bobjensen.com Thu Oct 5 04:17:00 2006 From: bob at bobjensen.com (Robert 'Bob' Jensen) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 23:17:00 -0500 Subject: [fab] Re: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: References: <1160014650.16598.5.camel@cutter> <45247E60.5050901@redhat.com> <1160020908.16598.35.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <4524873C.2050602@bobjensen.com> Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > On Thu, 5 Oct 2006, seth vidal wrote: > >> On Wed, 2006-10-04 at 23:39 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: >>> seth vidal wrote: >>>> hey guys, >>>> The goal of this tracker is to determine how many folks we have >>>> installing fedora, right? >>>> >>>> If we can assume that it is likely that a user will be using >>>> yum/pirut/puplet in a default install then we should be able to gather >>>> the information on how many folks are using it (hence installing fedora) >>>> from the mirrors.fedoraproject.org mirrorlist generating program. It'll >>>> track hits against it and we can then mine those logs for the number of >>>> users w/o obtaining much other information than 'they used >>>> yum/pirut/puplet'. >>>> >>>> It also requires nothing of us other than putting a log watcher on >>>> fedoraproject.org. >>> >>> Does that track unique users or just hits? Hits isn't that interesting. >>> Unique visitors is. >> it's just a url running under apache. It tracks what apache tracks >> whenever someone hits a page. So, yes, definitely tracking unique >> visitors. > > I'm perfectly happy to have a good answer that isn't as politically > charged as putting an image on a web page -- so long as it gets us > comparably useful data. > > So let's be clear about what the two scenarios would count: > > In the Firefox homepage scenario, we would count every unique IP for > everyone who opens a browser window while connected. > > In the Yum mirror tracker scenario, we would count every unique IP for > everyone who ever runs yum and talks to any repo. > > Do I understand correctly? > > --g > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Project || fedoraproject.org > Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors > ------------------------------------------------------------- > I hope you are understanding it correctly because that is how I understand it. I think this is the best idea I have heard so far. -- Robert 'Bob' Jensen * * http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BobJensen gpg fingerprint: F9F4 7243 4243 0043 2C45 97AF E8A4 C3AE 42EB 0BC6 Fedora Unity Project * bob at fedoraunity.org * http://fedoraunity.org/ From gdk at redhat.com Thu Oct 5 04:19:54 2006 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 00:19:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Re: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: <4524873C.2050602@bobjensen.com> References: <1160014650.16598.5.camel@cutter> <45247E60.5050901@redhat.com> <1160020908.16598.35.camel@cutter> <4524873C.2050602@bobjensen.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Oct 2006, Robert 'Bob' Jensen wrote: > I hope you are understanding it correctly because that is how I > understand it. I think this is the best idea I have heard so far. There is a subset of users -- we don't know how large -- who will never use yum because either (a) they won't have the bandwidth to use it, or (b) they won't even understand that they need to use it. I still think that the Firefox technique will give us a better cross-section of data. Let me think about it. I need to send a note to the docs folks anyway -- part apology, part analysis. I'll cc: this group as well. --g ------------------------------------------------------------- Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Project || fedoraproject.org Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors ------------------------------------------------------------- From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Thu Oct 5 04:33:51 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 00:33:51 -0400 Subject: [fab] Re: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: <4524872D.4020907@redhat.com> References: <1160014650.16598.5.camel@cutter> <45247E60.5050901@redhat.com> <1160020908.16598.35.camel@cutter> <4524872D.4020907@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1160022831.16598.39.camel@cutter> On Thu, 2006-10-05 at 00:16 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > seth vidal wrote: > > On Wed, 2006-10-04 at 23:39 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > >> seth vidal wrote: > >>> hey guys, > >>> The goal of this tracker is to determine how many folks we have > >>> installing fedora, right? > >>> > >>> If we can assume that it is likely that a user will be using > >>> yum/pirut/puplet in a default install then we should be able to gather > >>> the information on how many folks are using it (hence installing fedora) > >>> from the mirrors.fedoraproject.org mirrorlist generating program. It'll > >>> track hits against it and we can then mine those logs for the number of > >>> users w/o obtaining much other information than 'they used > >>> yum/pirut/puplet'. > >>> > >>> It also requires nothing of us other than putting a log watcher on > >>> fedoraproject.org. > >> > >> Does that track unique users or just hits? Hits isn't that interesting. > >> Unique visitors is. > > > > it's just a url running under apache. It tracks what apache tracks > > whenever someone hits a page. So, yes, definitely tracking unique > > visitors. > > There are only two ways that I know of to track unique visitors. 1. > Cookies or 2. Explicit registration (or registration behind the scenes.) > > I suspect you're thinking of unique IPs (as greg mentions in other > email?) Or do pup + friends track using cookies? Then you're correct, we're not tracking anything besides unique ips. -sv From bob at bobjensen.com Thu Oct 5 04:56:41 2006 From: bob at bobjensen.com (Robert 'Bob' Jensen) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 23:56:41 -0500 Subject: [fab] Re: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: <1160022831.16598.39.camel@cutter> References: <1160014650.16598.5.camel@cutter> <45247E60.5050901@redhat.com> <1160020908.16598.35.camel@cutter> <4524872D.4020907@redhat.com> <1160022831.16598.39.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <45249089.2040002@bobjensen.com> seth vidal wrote: > On Thu, 2006-10-05 at 00:16 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: >> seth vidal wrote: >>> On Wed, 2006-10-04 at 23:39 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: >>>> seth vidal wrote: >>>>> hey guys, >>>>> The goal of this tracker is to determine how many folks we have >>>>> installing fedora, right? >>>>> >>>>> If we can assume that it is likely that a user will be using >>>>> yum/pirut/puplet in a default install then we should be able to gather >>>>> the information on how many folks are using it (hence installing fedora) >>>>> from the mirrors.fedoraproject.org mirrorlist generating program. It'll >>>>> track hits against it and we can then mine those logs for the number of >>>>> users w/o obtaining much other information than 'they used >>>>> yum/pirut/puplet'. >>>>> >>>>> It also requires nothing of us other than putting a log watcher on >>>>> fedoraproject.org. >>>> Does that track unique users or just hits? Hits isn't that interesting. >>>> Unique visitors is. >>> it's just a url running under apache. It tracks what apache tracks >>> whenever someone hits a page. So, yes, definitely tracking unique >>> visitors. >> There are only two ways that I know of to track unique visitors. 1. >> Cookies or 2. Explicit registration (or registration behind the scenes.) >> >> I suspect you're thinking of unique IPs (as greg mentions in other >> email?) Or do pup + friends track using cookies? > > Then you're correct, we're not tracking anything besides unique ips. > > -sv > Not knowing exactly what numbers are wanted from this task is making this hard. I would think for total number of users/IPs the yum solution would be much better as those without a GUI installed would never get counted, if only desktop users are the number that is interesting then the Splash Page is best I guess. I would like to see perhaps a "Fedora Users Survey" as part of the FC7 splash page for more detailed information such as "How many Fedora installs do you have?", "How do you use Fedora?", "Do you use other Distros like A, B and C?", "Why do you use Fedora?" -- Robert 'Bob' Jensen * * http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BobJensen gpg fingerprint: F9F4 7243 4243 0043 2C45 97AF E8A4 C3AE 42EB 0BC6 Fedora Unity Project * bob at fedoraunity.org * http://fedoraunity.org/ From gdk at redhat.com Thu Oct 5 05:56:37 2006 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 01:56:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Re: splash page + tracking image example In-Reply-To: <1160006611.4193.301.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1160001132.4193.283.camel@erato.phig.org> <45243C8A.1090804@fedoraproject.org> <1160006611.4193.301.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: Apologies in advance for a very long-winded email. First, let me first offer a personal apology about this whole tracker business. I know that a lot of people here disagree with both the idea of a tracker, and the method that's being used to push it through. The hardworking volunteers on this team are being asked to do something unpalatable, at the last minute, outside of the team's process, without the benefit of real debate. Generally speaking, it's pretty much the opposite of how decisions should be taken in the community. That sucks. As the person who is strongly advocating this solution, it makes me feel like a jackass. Generally speaking, I don't like to feel like a jackass. In almost all cases, "Greg feels like jackass" is usually a strong signal that "Greg is wrong". In this case, though, "Greg feels like a jackass" makes me feel more like "Greg probably went about things the wrong way and needs to explain himself, but Greg is still fighting hard to do the right thing." So let me explain. We've still got some time to discuss "the right thing". It's not much time, but at least I'll feel like I made an honest attempt. I also want to make this very clear: I admire and respect this community and its leadership. I consider many of you to be longstanding friends. I am still at Red Hat because I believe in the importance of the work that we all do together. I hope you all understand that, even if I advocate a position that you strongly disagree with, I do it because I believe that it will benefit Fedora's users and contributors in the long run. 1. WHY ARE METRICS SO IMPORTANT? Really, this question should be asked this way: "are metrics so important that you're ready to risk alienating some users and contributors to get them?" And the answer to that question, from my perspective, is "yes". Why? Because, like it or not, every funding conversation inside of Red Hat's walls begins and ends with metrics. If it isn't measurable, it doesn't exist. Fact. This is especially important in the case of Fedora, because Fedora doesn't make any money directly for Red Hat. We continue to develop Fedora because it serves other purposes. Research and development. Quality Assurance for RHEL. The ethics of continuing to provide free software, which is important to all of us. And, most importantly from my own perspective, *community mindshare*. If we can't quantify Fedora's mindshare in some way, we lose one of the *major* rationales for making the Fedora Project stronger and more independent. Every time a Red Hat executive asks "how many Fedora users are out there?" and we answer "oh, somewhere between 100k and a few million," we make it *that* much more difficult to defend Fedora from bad Red Hat decisions. If a Red Hat executive has to choose between giving resources to RHEL and giving resources to Fedora, and if he's got dollar figures on one side of the ledger and hand-wavy "mindshare" guesses on the other side of the ledger, he's going to choose RHEL. Every single time. I've seen it happen, again and again and again and again. And again. Part of my job as "the community guy" is to fight my ass off to make sure we don't continue to make those mistakes. To win that fight, I need metrics. And the better metrics I have, the better a fight I can put up on Fedora's behalf. So will better metrics suddenly fill the Fedora coffers with gold, and allow us to hire engineers to solve all of Fedora's problems? No. Not hardly. But these metrics *are* a necessary precondition to further funding: of developer conferences, of infrastructure projects, of more hardware, of more engineers. In short: Red Hat asks Fedora to be accountable for delivering value to the company -- value that must be quantified beyond dollars and cents. If we cannot be accountable in this way, we make it difficult to justify further investment. Investment that is, in my opinion, *badly needed* to ensure ever more meaningful community involvement. These are, in the end, political disputes. Karsten has argued to me privately that "the Fedora community shouldn't have to care about Red Hat's political issues." In an ideal world, that would be true. But in the real world, Fedora is *incredibly* dependent upon Red Hat's largesse to be successful. 2. OKAY, FINE, WE TAKE THE POINT ABOUT METRICS -- BUT DON'T THE PROPOSED FIREFOX METRICS SUCK? ARE UNIQUE IP ADDRESSES REALLY THAT USEFUL? Maybe not. There may be better ways, and it's clear to me now that we should have been discussing all of these better ways a long time ago. In my judgment, this solution had three primary benefits that recommended it above all others: a. Dead simple to implement; b. Will gather the most data, since more computer users run web browsers than just about any other application (which is arguably anecdotal); c. Will gather data that may potentially be sliced across several meaningful axes, including language and region. Seth Vidal also points out that we can gather much of the same data from yum, since yum talks to a central server to obtain mirror data. This is another useful approach, and if we'd been having this conversation in public over a long period of time, it would have become evident much earlier. I would argue that this data should be collected *in addition* to the Firefox data, because it will tell us a different story: not necessarily desktop users, users who understand that updates are important, users who have bandwidth to retrieve updates online. Every metric is imperfect. The Firefox metric is the best one I've been able to come up with in this short timeframe. 3. CAN THIS NOT WAIT UNTIL FC7, WHEN WE CAN SOLVE THIS PROBLEM "THE RIGHT WAY"? I don't believe we can. In my opinion, we need *urgently* to start somewhere. It's the difference between building a funding plan now and building it 6-9 months from now. Now, that said, I think that solving this problem *correctly* is vital. Ultimately, I think a new page in firstboot in FC7 is the right solution. But that will require a robust backend, and those are seldom as simple as they seem when you're drawing them up on the whiteboard. 4. WHY IN GOD'S NAME DIDN'T YOU COME TO US WITH ALL OF THIS EARLIER? The honest truth: I never expected this firestorm of controversy. Setting the start page to go to a vendor site is one of the oldest tricks in the browser world; Netscape was using this technique as one of their primary business strategies over ten years ago. We collect exactly *zero* personally identifiable information. It just seems so clearly defensible to me that I never even considered the possibility that reasonable people would object to it. But you are all reasonable people, and many of you object to it. And it's possible that some of our users will object to it as well. I understand that. But I believe it's a risk we need to take. It's a tricky thing, you know? It's clear to me now that we should have been having this conversation weeks ago -- and I believe that many people feel more strongly about the way this solution has been shoved down people's throats than they feel about the proposed solution itself. For that, I deeply and humbly apologize. I screwed up. I'm sorry. Screwups aside, though, we're at a decision point. I've done my best to convince you all the best way I know how. The decision is ultimately in Max's hands; he gets paid to make exactly these kinds of decisions, and he ultimately is held accountable by Red Hat for Fedora's successes and failures. Anyway. If you all feel so strongly that my analysis is *so flawed*, and that the perceptions of this "tracker" have the potential to be *so damaging* to the goals of the project, that we should wait another several months and bet on another solution in FC7... well, then, I'll take your side in the matter, and trust you to help us solve this problem in FC7. When we've really needed you, you've never let us down before. --g ------------------------------------------------------------- Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Project || fedoraproject.org Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors ------------------------------------------------------------- From jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org Thu Oct 5 10:52:11 2006 From: jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org (Josh Boyer) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 05:52:11 -0500 Subject: [fab] Re: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: References: <1160014650.16598.5.camel@cutter> <45247E60.5050901@redhat.com> <1160020908.16598.35.camel@cutter> <4524873C.2050602@bobjensen.com> Message-ID: <1160045531.16248.1.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> On Thu, 2006-10-05 at 00:19 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > On Wed, 4 Oct 2006, Robert 'Bob' Jensen wrote: > > > I hope you are understanding it correctly because that is how I > > understand it. I think this is the best idea I have heard so far. > > There is a subset of users -- we don't know how large -- who will never > use yum because either (a) they won't have the bandwidth to use it, or (b) > they won't even understand that they need to use it. Or c) they setup local repos. > > I still think that the Firefox technique will give us a better > cross-section of data. Um, I don't necessarily think so. Looking around, I have 4 boxen with rawhide that don't even have X installed. They're called "servers", and they exist in greater numbers than you think. josh From jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org Thu Oct 5 10:56:29 2006 From: jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org (Josh Boyer) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 05:56:29 -0500 Subject: [fab] Re: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: <45249089.2040002@bobjensen.com> References: <1160014650.16598.5.camel@cutter> <45247E60.5050901@redhat.com> <1160020908.16598.35.camel@cutter> <4524872D.4020907@redhat.com> <1160022831.16598.39.camel@cutter> <45249089.2040002@bobjensen.com> Message-ID: <1160045789.16248.4.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> On Wed, 2006-10-04 at 23:56 -0500, Robert 'Bob' Jensen wrote: > seth vidal wrote: > > On Thu, 2006-10-05 at 00:16 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > >> seth vidal wrote: > >>> On Wed, 2006-10-04 at 23:39 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > >>>> seth vidal wrote: > >>>>> hey guys, > >>>>> The goal of this tracker is to determine how many folks we have > >>>>> installing fedora, right? > >>>>> > >>>>> If we can assume that it is likely that a user will be using > >>>>> yum/pirut/puplet in a default install then we should be able to gather > >>>>> the information on how many folks are using it (hence installing fedora) > >>>>> from the mirrors.fedoraproject.org mirrorlist generating program. It'll > >>>>> track hits against it and we can then mine those logs for the number of > >>>>> users w/o obtaining much other information than 'they used > >>>>> yum/pirut/puplet'. > >>>>> > >>>>> It also requires nothing of us other than putting a log watcher on > >>>>> fedoraproject.org. > >>>> Does that track unique users or just hits? Hits isn't that interesting. > >>>> Unique visitors is. > >>> it's just a url running under apache. It tracks what apache tracks > >>> whenever someone hits a page. So, yes, definitely tracking unique > >>> visitors. > >> There are only two ways that I know of to track unique visitors. 1. > >> Cookies or 2. Explicit registration (or registration behind the scenes.) > >> > >> I suspect you're thinking of unique IPs (as greg mentions in other > >> email?) Or do pup + friends track using cookies? > > > > Then you're correct, we're not tracking anything besides unique ips. > > > > -sv > > > > Not knowing exactly what numbers are wanted from this task is making > this hard. I would think for total number of users/IPs the yum solution > would be much better as those without a GUI installed would never get > counted, if only desktop users are the number that is interesting then > the Splash Page is best I guess. I like the yum solution better too, but it still won't get you what you're looking for. Like Christopher said, you need cookies or registration to truly get the number of users. Unique IPs are misleading because of proxys and NAT. There are large corporations that use Fedora and you'll never get unique IPs out of them for all users. josh From mmcgrath at fedoraproject.org Thu Oct 5 12:38:57 2006 From: mmcgrath at fedoraproject.org (Mike McGrath) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 07:38:57 -0500 Subject: [fab] Re: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: References: <1160014650.16598.5.camel@cutter> <45247E60.5050901@redhat.com> <1160020908.16598.35.camel@cutter> <4524873C.2050602@bobjensen.com> Message-ID: <3237e4410610050538h3797e4d4t34d4c23e1133a5d1@mail.gmail.com> On 10/4/06, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > On Wed, 4 Oct 2006, Robert 'Bob' Jensen wrote: > > > I hope you are understanding it correctly because that is how I > > understand it. I think this is the best idea I have heard so far. > > There is a subset of users -- we don't know how large -- who will never > use yum because either (a) they won't have the bandwidth to use it, or (b) > they won't even understand that they need to use it. > > I still think that the Firefox technique will give us a better > cross-section of data. > > Let me think about it. I need to send a note to the docs folks anyway -- > part apology, part analysis. I'll cc: this group as well. > Just pointing out that about half of the machines I install FC on don't have X installed, much less firefox. -Mike From mmcgrath at fedoraproject.org Thu Oct 5 13:31:44 2006 From: mmcgrath at fedoraproject.org (Mike McGrath) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 08:31:44 -0500 Subject: [fab] Re: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: <3237e4410610050538h3797e4d4t34d4c23e1133a5d1@mail.gmail.com> References: <1160014650.16598.5.camel@cutter> <45247E60.5050901@redhat.com> <1160020908.16598.35.camel@cutter> <4524873C.2050602@bobjensen.com> <3237e4410610050538h3797e4d4t34d4c23e1133a5d1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3237e4410610050631t5d2c9bfbnaeb60c6119314dcc@mail.gmail.com> On 10/5/06, Mike McGrath wrote: I haven't heard much of this discussion but thought I'd throw this out there. If we're going to go with a firefox metric, we should A) put it in the release notes. and B) create an easy way for people to disable it if they choose which should be mentioned in the release notes. By 'easy way' I'm thinking something similar to the sendmail->postfix rpm. It just installs itself and makes a simple change. /2 cents -Mike From katzj at redhat.com Thu Oct 5 13:51:03 2006 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 09:51:03 -0400 Subject: [fab] Re: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: References: <1160014650.16598.5.camel@cutter> <45247E60.5050901@redhat.com> <1160020908.16598.35.camel@cutter> <4524873C.2050602@bobjensen.com> Message-ID: <1160056264.2828.3.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> On Thu, 2006-10-05 at 00:19 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > On Wed, 4 Oct 2006, Robert 'Bob' Jensen wrote: > > I hope you are understanding it correctly because that is how I > > understand it. I think this is the best idea I have heard so far. > > There is a subset of users -- we don't know how large -- who will never > use yum because either (a) they won't have the bandwidth to use it, or (b) > they won't even understand that they need to use it. Except that with yum-updatesd installed and running by default, the vast majority of users will at least be finding out that they need update info. Jeremy From jkeating at redhat.com Thu Oct 5 14:12:32 2006 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 10:12:32 -0400 Subject: [fab] Re: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: References: <1160014650.16598.5.camel@cutter> <4524873C.2050602@bobjensen.com> Message-ID: <200610051012.33398.jkeating@redhat.com> On Thursday 05 October 2006 00:19, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > There is a subset of users -- we don't know how large -- who will never > use yum because either (a) they won't have the bandwidth to use it, or (b) > they won't even understand that they need to use it. But thats OK because yum-updatesd runs by default and hits the webpage FOR them. -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Oct 5 14:12:59 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 19:42:59 +0530 Subject: [fab] Re: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: References: <1160014650.16598.5.camel@cutter> <45247E60.5050901@redhat.com> <1160020908.16598.35.camel@cutter> <4524873C.2050602@bobjensen.com> Message-ID: <452512EB.7070704@fedoraproject.org> Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > On Wed, 4 Oct 2006, Robert 'Bob' Jensen wrote: > >> I hope you are understanding it correctly because that is how I >> understand it. I think this is the best idea I have heard so far. > > There is a subset of users -- we don't know how large -- who will never > use yum because either (a) they won't have the bandwidth to use it, or (b) > they won't even understand that they need to use it. > > I still think that the Firefox technique will give us a better > cross-section of data. > > Let me think about it. I need to send a note to the docs folks anyway -- > part apology, part analysis. I'll cc: this group as well. > I was particular that we dont lose out a important metric and related benefits because of the process being not ideal. I think with yum mirror list and yum-updatesd installed by default in Fedora Core 6 we get enough data non intrusively that we dont need to rush this up right now. Rahul From jkeating at redhat.com Thu Oct 5 14:20:59 2006 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 10:20:59 -0400 Subject: [fab] Re: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: <452512EB.7070704@fedoraproject.org> References: <1160014650.16598.5.camel@cutter> <452512EB.7070704@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <200610051020.59458.jkeating@redhat.com> On Thursday 05 October 2006 10:12, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > I was particular that we dont lose out a important metric and related > benefits because of the process being not ideal. I think with yum mirror > list and yum-updatesd installed by default in Fedora Core 6 we get > enough data non intrusively that we dont need to rush this up right now. I agree. Post-fc6 I would like to work on a firstboot screen that would ask users to opt-in to a end user survey that would gather (anonymously) some info about the hardware and possibly what software sets were installed and upload them to a public page, where anybody could check the results. Much like: http://www.steampowered.com/status/survey.html -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gdk at redhat.com Thu Oct 5 14:17:41 2006 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 10:17:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Re: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: <200610051012.33398.jkeating@redhat.com> References: <1160014650.16598.5.camel@cutter> <4524873C.2050602@bobjensen.com> <200610051012.33398.jkeating@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Oct 2006, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Thursday 05 October 2006 00:19, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > There is a subset of users -- we don't know how large -- who will never > > use yum because either (a) they won't have the bandwidth to use it, or (b) > > they won't even understand that they need to use it. > > But thats OK because yum-updatesd runs by default and hits the webpage FOR > them. I did not know that. If that's the case, then it's an absolute no-brainer. The rich irony here, of course, is that rather than tell users we're tracking them, we will instead be able to track them invisibly through the normal operation of their systems. But I'm perfectly happy either way, so. --g ------------------------------------------------------------- Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Project || fedoraproject.org Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors ------------------------------------------------------------- From max at spevack.org Thu Oct 5 15:02:27 2006 From: max at spevack.org (Max Spevack) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 11:02:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Re: splash page + tracking image example In-Reply-To: References: <1160001132.4193.283.camel@erato.phig.org> <45243C8A.1090804@fedoraproject.org> <1160006611.4193.301.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Oct 2006, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > I don't believe we can. In my opinion, we need *urgently* to start > somewhere. It's the difference between building a funding plan now and > building it 6-9 months from now. This paragraph sums up my concern best. Greg did a superb job of elaborating the issues, so I won't prat on about it, but he is 100% correct when he says that any significant Fedora funding decisions require stronger metrics than we have been able to provide. Each day that we don't change that is a day in which we don't do anything to help ourselves. So from a high level I can say something like "I don't want us to ship fc6 without having some way to track how many people are actually *using* fc6". The firefox idea was a good way to track "Desktop" users -- folks who have installed X. Basically just counting unique IP addresses via yum is a good way to track many different types of installations, basically people who are updating regardless of their package set. Those are two very different metrics. But at this point I'd be happy with either. It just needs to be easily reportable. And I think it would be great if it were publicly-reported. Even if we just have some little piece of code somewhere that counts up logs for unique IP hits and posts that number to as webpage. If we're watching yum, that even tell us which version of Fedora is producing the hits, since they will go to a different repo. I'd be perfectly fine with that. In the interest of having this decision be made quickly (but also on this list) I nominate Seth, Karsten, Bob Jensen, and Mike McGrath to make the call of what they want to do. Let's just get *something* for fc6. And then we can do it "right" -- firstboot, survey, etc. after that. --Max -- Max Spevack + http://spevack.org + gpg key -- http://spevack.org/max.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org Thu Oct 5 15:23:13 2006 From: jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org (Josh Boyer) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 10:23:13 -0500 Subject: [fab] Re: splash page + tracking image example In-Reply-To: References: <1160001132.4193.283.camel@erato.phig.org> <45243C8A.1090804@fedoraproject.org> <1160006611.4193.301.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1160061793.31974.9.camel@zod.rchland.ibm.com> On Thu, 2006-10-05 at 11:02 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: > On Thu, 5 Oct 2006, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > > I don't believe we can. In my opinion, we need *urgently* to start > > somewhere. It's the difference between building a funding plan now and > > building it 6-9 months from now. > > This paragraph sums up my concern best. Greg did a superb job of > elaborating the issues, so I won't prat on about it, but he is 100% > correct when he says that any significant Fedora funding decisions require > stronger metrics than we have been able to provide. > > Each day that we don't change that is a day in which we don't do anything > to help ourselves. > > So from a high level I can say something like "I don't want us to ship fc6 > without having some way to track how many people are actually *using* > fc6". The firefox idea was a good way to track "Desktop" users -- folks > who have installed X. > > Basically just counting unique IP addresses via yum is a good way to track > many different types of installations, basically people who are updating > regardless of their package set. No, it's not. DHCP, NAT, proxies, etc. all make "unique" IP addresses a horrible metric. In some cases, you get a single IP address for a number of different machines. In others, you get two IP addresses for the same machine. Yes, counting IP addresses will give you a metric. I just don't think that metric is good for much because you still don't know how many machines really have Fedora installed. Is it better than nothing? I don't know. josh From mspevack at redhat.com Thu Oct 5 15:26:48 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 11:26:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Re: splash page + tracking image example In-Reply-To: <1160061793.31974.9.camel@zod.rchland.ibm.com> References: <1160001132.4193.283.camel@erato.phig.org> <45243C8A.1090804@fedoraproject.org> <1160006611.4193.301.camel@erato.phig.org> <1160061793.31974.9.camel@zod.rchland.ibm.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Oct 2006, Josh Boyer wrote: > No, it's not. DHCP, NAT, proxies, etc. all make "unique" IP addresses a > horrible metric. In some cases, you get a single IP address for a > number of different machines. In others, you get two IP addresses for > the same machine. That's true, it will not be perfect by any means. > Yes, counting IP addresses will give you a metric. I just don't think > that metric is good for much because you still don't know how many > machines really have Fedora installed. Is it better than nothing? I > don't know. It gets you a pile of data, which can be analyzed and from which value can be extracted. It's certainly better than having *no data*. Bottom line -- in th FC6 timeframe, any metric gathering will be imperfect, and feel like a hack. So we pick the hack that won't also anger people, and we do it. -- Max Spevack + http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MaxSpevack + gpg key -- http://spevack.org/max.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From bob at bobjensen.com Thu Oct 5 15:51:10 2006 From: bob at bobjensen.com (Robert 'Bob' Jensen) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 10:51:10 -0500 Subject: [fab] Re: splash page + tracking image example In-Reply-To: References: <1160001132.4193.283.camel@erato.phig.org> <45243C8A.1090804@fedoraproject.org> <1160006611.4193.301.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <452529EE.6040800@bobjensen.com> Max Spevack wrote: > > In the interest of having this decision be made quickly (but also on this > list) I nominate Seth, Karsten, Bob Jensen, and Mike McGrath to make the > call of what they want to do. > > > --Max > I vote for the yum method. -- Robert 'Bob' Jensen * * http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BobJensen gpg fingerprint: F9F4 7243 4243 0043 2C45 97AF E8A4 C3AE 42EB 0BC6 Fedora Unity Project * bob at fedoraunity.org * http://fedoraunity.org/ From mmcgrath at fedoraproject.org Thu Oct 5 16:20:37 2006 From: mmcgrath at fedoraproject.org (Mike McGrath) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 11:20:37 -0500 Subject: [fab] Re: splash page + tracking image example In-Reply-To: <452529EE.6040800@bobjensen.com> References: <1160001132.4193.283.camel@erato.phig.org> <45243C8A.1090804@fedoraproject.org> <1160006611.4193.301.camel@erato.phig.org> <452529EE.6040800@bobjensen.com> Message-ID: <3237e4410610050920lc91dbb3wff6552788e9d0309@mail.gmail.com> On 10/5/06, Robert 'Bob' Jensen wrote: > Max Spevack wrote: > > > > > In the interest of having this decision be made quickly (but also on this > > list) I nominate Seth, Karsten, Bob Jensen, and Mike McGrath to make the > > call of what they want to do. > > > > > > > --Max > > > > I vote for the yum method. > In the interest of 'just getting something' the yum method will give us the 'at least this many unique ip's contacted our mirror server' We can work from there to figure out what to do for the next release. +1 for the yum method. -Mike From smooge at gmail.com Thu Oct 5 18:11:34 2006 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 12:11:34 -0600 Subject: [fab] Re: splash page + tracking image example In-Reply-To: References: <1160001132.4193.283.camel@erato.phig.org> <45243C8A.1090804@fedoraproject.org> <1160006611.4193.301.camel@erato.phig.org> <1160061793.31974.9.camel@zod.rchland.ibm.com> Message-ID: <80d7e4090610051111i74c812c0u505b9e08d8a97774@mail.gmail.com> On 10/5/06, Max Spevack wrote: > On Thu, 5 Oct 2006, Josh Boyer wrote: > > > No, it's not. DHCP, NAT, proxies, etc. all make "unique" IP addresses a > > horrible metric. In some cases, you get a single IP address for a > > number of different machines. In others, you get two IP addresses for > > the same machine. > > That's true, it will not be perfect by any means. > > > Yes, counting IP addresses will give you a metric. I just don't think > > that metric is good for much because you still don't know how many > > machines really have Fedora installed. Is it better than nothing? I > > don't know. > > It gets you a pile of data, which can be analyzed and from which value can > be extracted. As long as you put in error bar estimates on what you are analyzing. When I was collecting numbers for RH Marketing.. the big problem I had was educating people that the numbers I gave were not absolutes and had errors involved on it. Not knowing that there are estimates in the numbers were causing problems where website growth was occuring in certain countries and such. The issue with any of the tracking schemes is working out where you are not violating a persons privacy. A person who is doing updates on the internet is sort of making an agreement that they can be counted.. but it may not be one that 99% of the people doing it realize. [The remaining 1% either dont care or use Tor or something to mask themselves.] To make it work you need to make an agreement with people. A simple choice would be to put in a firstboot page in FC7. State basically what Greg did why we would like to track certain information and how it is important for future of Fedora. Then if they agree to it, then send out a webcookie for the machine that is made from a SHA1 hash of some amount of random data. Put that data also into a yum plugin that sends the data as a cookie that is in the yum sned to the master server. This allows you to collect a certain amount of data and clear out some of the issues about dhcp, etc. People who do not want to participate don't put the cookie in their send, those that do can give some information that isnt too privacy threatening. [ The too is meant to cover people who believe that there is absolute right to all privacy.] > > It's certainly better than having *no data*. > > Bottom line -- in th FC6 timeframe, any metric gathering will be > imperfect, and feel like a hack. > > So we pick the hack that won't also anger people, and we do it. > > -- > Max Spevack > + http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MaxSpevack > + gpg key -- http://spevack.org/max.asc > + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board > -- Stephen J Smoogen. -- CSIRT/Linux System Administrator How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice" From mspevack at redhat.com Thu Oct 5 18:12:44 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 14:12:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Re: splash page + tracking image example In-Reply-To: <3237e4410610050920lc91dbb3wff6552788e9d0309@mail.gmail.com> References: <1160001132.4193.283.camel@erato.phig.org> <45243C8A.1090804@fedoraproject.org> <1160006611.4193.301.camel@erato.phig.org> <452529EE.6040800@bobjensen.com> <3237e4410610050920lc91dbb3wff6552788e9d0309@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Oct 2006, Mike McGrath wrote: > On 10/5/06, Robert 'Bob' Jensen wrote: >> Max Spevack wrote: >> >> > >> > In the interest of having this decision be made quickly (but also on this >> > list) I nominate Seth, Karsten, Bob Jensen, and Mike McGrath to make the >> > call of what they want to do. >> > >> >> > >> > --Max >> > >> >> I vote for the yum method. >> > > In the interest of 'just getting something' the yum method will give > us the 'at least this many unique ip's contacted our mirror server' > We can work from there to figure out what to do for the next release. > > +1 for the yum method. Who is making it happen, and when will be *be happening*? No reason to not set it up ASAP, right? --Max -- Max Spevack + http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MaxSpevack + gpg key -- http://spevack.org/max.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From mmcgrath at fedoraproject.org Thu Oct 5 18:26:05 2006 From: mmcgrath at fedoraproject.org (Mike McGrath) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 13:26:05 -0500 Subject: [fab] Re: splash page + tracking image example In-Reply-To: References: <1160001132.4193.283.camel@erato.phig.org> <45243C8A.1090804@fedoraproject.org> <1160006611.4193.301.camel@erato.phig.org> <452529EE.6040800@bobjensen.com> <3237e4410610050920lc91dbb3wff6552788e9d0309@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3237e4410610051126u51d4f36er693b9caf2b3b838f@mail.gmail.com> On 10/5/06, Max Spevack wrote: > On Thu, 5 Oct 2006, Mike McGrath wrote: > > > On 10/5/06, Robert 'Bob' Jensen wrote: > >> Max Spevack wrote: > Who is making it happen, and when will be *be happening*? > > No reason to not set it up ASAP, right? > Actually using the yum method is already ready. I was looking at the numbers for rawhide last night: Unique IP's: 15834 Visits: 66472 Hits: 605265 Bandwidth: 259.05 MB -Mike From bob at cbccgroup.com Thu Oct 5 18:32:19 2006 From: bob at cbccgroup.com (Robert 'Bob' Jensen) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 13:32:19 -0500 Subject: [fab] Re: splash page + tracking image example In-Reply-To: References: <1160001132.4193.283.camel@erato.phig.org> <45243C8A.1090804@fedoraproject.org> <1160006611.4193.301.camel@erato.phig.org> <452529EE.6040800@bobjensen.com> <3237e4410610050920lc91dbb3wff6552788e9d0309@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45254FB3.1070902@cbccgroup.com> Max Spevack wrote: > > Who is making it happen, and when will be *be happening*? > > No reason to not set it up ASAP, right? > > --Max > As far as the 'splash page' goes it will be going in to the fedora-release-notes package today. I was hoping that Seth and Karsten would drop a note here but I think they both agree that using yum to get some data is the lesser of two evils. I am sure that if Mike and Seth need any help with the yum method they will ask but it seems pretty straight forward. -- Robert 'Bob' Jensen * * Owner * * bob at cbccgroup.com gpg fingerprint: F9F4 7243 4243 0043 2C45 97AF E8A4 C3AE 42EB 0BC6 Complete Business Computer Consulting * * http://cbccgroup.com/ From bob at bobjensen.com Thu Oct 5 18:33:41 2006 From: bob at bobjensen.com (Robert 'Bob' Jensen) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 13:33:41 -0500 Subject: [fab] Re: splash page + tracking image example In-Reply-To: <3237e4410610051126u51d4f36er693b9caf2b3b838f@mail.gmail.com> References: <1160001132.4193.283.camel@erato.phig.org> <45243C8A.1090804@fedoraproject.org> <1160006611.4193.301.camel@erato.phig.org> <452529EE.6040800@bobjensen.com> <3237e4410610050920lc91dbb3wff6552788e9d0309@mail.gmail.com> <3237e4410610051126u51d4f36er693b9caf2b3b838f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45255005.8020305@bobjensen.com> Mike McGrath wrote: > Actually using the yum method is already ready. I was looking at the > numbers for rawhide last night: > > Unique IP's: 15834 > Visits: 66472 > Hits: 605265 > Bandwidth: 259.05 MB > > -Mike > Hey that's great! -- Robert 'Bob' Jensen * * http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BobJensen gpg fingerprint: F9F4 7243 4243 0043 2C45 97AF E8A4 C3AE 42EB 0BC6 Fedora Unity Project * bob at fedoraunity.org * http://fedoraunity.org/ From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Thu Oct 5 18:37:08 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 14:37:08 -0400 Subject: [fab] Re: splash page + tracking image example In-Reply-To: <45254FB3.1070902@cbccgroup.com> References: <1160001132.4193.283.camel@erato.phig.org> <45243C8A.1090804@fedoraproject.org> <1160006611.4193.301.camel@erato.phig.org> <452529EE.6040800@bobjensen.com> <3237e4410610050920lc91dbb3wff6552788e9d0309@mail.gmail.com> <45254FB3.1070902@cbccgroup.com> Message-ID: <1160073428.23523.17.camel@cutter> On Thu, 2006-10-05 at 13:32 -0500, Robert 'Bob' Jensen wrote: > Max Spevack wrote: > > > > Who is making it happen, and when will be *be happening*? > > > > No reason to not set it up ASAP, right? > > > > --Max > > > > As far as the 'splash page' goes it will be going in to the > fedora-release-notes package today. I was hoping that Seth and Karsten > would drop a note here but I think they both agree that using yum to get > some data is the lesser of two evils. > > I am sure that if Mike and Seth need any help with the yum method they > will ask but it seems pretty straight forward. I'm sorry I've not responded I've been busy. I'm not going to get into discussions of evil or not. That's just ridiculous at this point. it's simply less mess if we do it via the yum mirrorlist tracker. It's information we would have had anyway and it doesn't put anything on the users system (ie: a cookie or any special individualized piece of info) it's as innocuous as it comes. -sv From kaboom at oobleck.net Thu Oct 5 15:28:47 2006 From: kaboom at oobleck.net (Chris Ricker) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 11:28:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Re: splash page + tracking image example In-Reply-To: References: <1160001132.4193.283.camel@erato.phig.org> <45243C8A.1090804@fedoraproject.org> <1160006611.4193.301.camel@erato.phig.org> <1160061793.31974.9.camel@zod.rchland.ibm.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Oct 2006, Max Spevack wrote: > > Yes, counting IP addresses will give you a metric. I just don't think that > > metric is good for much because you still don't know how many machines > > really have Fedora installed. Is it better than nothing? I don't know. > > It gets you a pile of data, which can be analyzed and from which value can be > extracted. > > It's certainly better than having *no data*. Is wrong data really any better than no data? We already have wrong data ("somewhere between 10 thousand and 10 million, we think") if that's all you're wanting. And we know the proposed counting method (ip-based web hit) will be wrong data as well.... later, chris From jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org Thu Oct 5 18:48:31 2006 From: jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org (Josh Boyer) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 13:48:31 -0500 Subject: [fab] Re: splash page + tracking image example In-Reply-To: <80d7e4090610051111i74c812c0u505b9e08d8a97774@mail.gmail.com> References: <1160001132.4193.283.camel@erato.phig.org> <45243C8A.1090804@fedoraproject.org> <1160006611.4193.301.camel@erato.phig.org> <1160061793.31974.9.camel@zod.rchland.ibm.com> <80d7e4090610051111i74c812c0u505b9e08d8a97774@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1160074112.31974.14.camel@zod.rchland.ibm.com> On Thu, 2006-10-05 at 12:11 -0600, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > > This allows you to collect a certain amount of data and clear out some > of the issues about dhcp, etc. People who do not want to participate > don't put the cookie in their send, those that do can give some > information that isnt too privacy threatening. [ The too is meant to > cover people who believe that there is absolute right to all privacy.] Or add a klive type package that can be optionally downloaded and installed. josh From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Thu Oct 5 18:49:32 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 14:49:32 -0400 Subject: [fab] Re: splash page + tracking image example In-Reply-To: References: <1160001132.4193.283.camel@erato.phig.org> <45243C8A.1090804@fedoraproject.org> <1160006611.4193.301.camel@erato.phig.org> <1160061793.31974.9.camel@zod.rchland.ibm.com> Message-ID: <1160074172.23523.19.camel@cutter> On Thu, 2006-10-05 at 11:28 -0400, Chris Ricker wrote: > On Thu, 5 Oct 2006, Max Spevack wrote: > > > > Yes, counting IP addresses will give you a metric. I just don't think that > > > metric is good for much because you still don't know how many machines > > > really have Fedora installed. Is it better than nothing? I don't know. > > > > It gets you a pile of data, which can be analyzed and from which value can be > > extracted. > > > > It's certainly better than having *no data*. > > Is wrong data really any better than no data? We already have wrong data > ("somewhere between 10 thousand and 10 million, we think") if that's all > you're wanting. And we know the proposed counting method (ip-based web > hit) will be wrong data as well.... > yes. there is no such thing as right data here. there is only marginally more or less crappy. -sv From mmcgrath at fedoraproject.org Thu Oct 5 18:52:42 2006 From: mmcgrath at fedoraproject.org (Mike McGrath) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 13:52:42 -0500 Subject: [fab] Re: splash page + tracking image example In-Reply-To: References: <1160001132.4193.283.camel@erato.phig.org> <45243C8A.1090804@fedoraproject.org> <1160006611.4193.301.camel@erato.phig.org> <1160061793.31974.9.camel@zod.rchland.ibm.com> Message-ID: <3237e4410610051152j6a353784ma1814bf221030b1f@mail.gmail.com> On 10/5/06, Chris Ricker wrote: > On Thu, 5 Oct 2006, Max Spevack wrote: > Is wrong data really any better than no data? We already have wrong data > ("somewhere between 10 thousand and 10 million, we think") if that's all > you're wanting. And we know the proposed counting method (ip-based web > hit) will be wrong data as well.... > > later, > chris Its about interpretation. While individual IP's != individual users, it is the closet thing we can come with short notice and without a call-home feature. One thing we could do is generate a key for each user and append it to the end of the users URI to which yum connects. Some might consider that evil though. Even still, unique IP's will get us additional information about geographic location, times users connect, architecture's being run, etc. Long term though it will be nice to see how many users continue to try to use EOL'd releases. For example when FC6 gets moved to legacy and then removed all together, how many people are still trying to update it. If we're interested, defaulting to network based installs may aid in this as well but is outside the scope of this discussion. -Mike From jkeating at redhat.com Thu Oct 5 18:54:36 2006 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 14:54:36 -0400 Subject: [fab] Re: splash page + tracking image example In-Reply-To: <3237e4410610051152j6a353784ma1814bf221030b1f@mail.gmail.com> References: <1160001132.4193.283.camel@erato.phig.org> <3237e4410610051152j6a353784ma1814bf221030b1f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200610051454.36489.jkeating@redhat.com> On Thursday 05 October 2006 14:52, Mike McGrath wrote: > One thing we could do is generate a key for each > user and append it to the end of the users URI to which yum connects. > Some might consider that evil though. Which still doesn't help when a user re-installs the system with a different package set or whatever to generate a slightly different key. -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From smooge at gmail.com Thu Oct 5 19:04:37 2006 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 13:04:37 -0600 Subject: [fab] Re: splash page + tracking image example In-Reply-To: <200610051454.36489.jkeating@redhat.com> References: <1160001132.4193.283.camel@erato.phig.org> <3237e4410610051152j6a353784ma1814bf221030b1f@mail.gmail.com> <200610051454.36489.jkeating@redhat.com> Message-ID: <80d7e4090610051204o7dec4543pe217818d2d77d78f@mail.gmail.com> On 10/5/06, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Thursday 05 October 2006 14:52, Mike McGrath wrote: > > One thing we could do is generate a key for each > > user and append it to the end of the users URI to which yum connects. > > Some might consider that evil though. > > Which still doesn't help when a user re-installs the system with a different > package set or whatever to generate a slightly different key. > No. But it puts a better level of "error-guessing" on the numbers. There is no way for a larger data set than 100 that you are not going to have some sort of "error-guessing" in it. The questions are: A) Can you quantify the errors? B) Can you live with the size of said errors? C) Is the extra steps you are putting in to narrowing the amount of errors causing too high of a burden thus causing other errors to crep in. These are questions that management should be setting, BUT I have yet seen a management set other than Google and SAS that knows how to do it. Instead, they want numbers and you continuely refine it until they get the questions they want answered (but don't know how to ask) -- Stephen J Smoogen. -- CSIRT/Linux System Administrator How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice" From jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org Thu Oct 5 20:15:41 2006 From: jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org (Josh Boyer) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 15:15:41 -0500 Subject: [fab] Re: splash page + tracking image example In-Reply-To: References: <1160001132.4193.283.camel@erato.phig.org> <45243C8A.1090804@fedoraproject.org> <1160006611.4193.301.camel@erato.phig.org> <1160061793.31974.9.camel@zod.rchland.ibm.com> Message-ID: <1160079341.31974.16.camel@zod.rchland.ibm.com> On Thu, 2006-10-05 at 11:26 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: > > It gets you a pile of data, which can be analyzed and from which value can > be extracted. > > It's certainly better than having *no data*. Only if the data shows significant mindshare. Otherwise I'd rather stick to handwaving. josh From gdk at redhat.com Thu Oct 5 20:13:47 2006 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 16:13:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Re: splash page + tracking image example In-Reply-To: <1160079341.31974.16.camel@zod.rchland.ibm.com> References: <1160001132.4193.283.camel@erato.phig.org> <45243C8A.1090804@fedoraproject.org> <1160006611.4193.301.camel@erato.phig.org> <1160061793.31974.9.camel@zod.rchland.ibm.com> <1160079341.31974.16.camel@zod.rchland.ibm.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Oct 2006, Josh Boyer wrote: > On Thu, 2006-10-05 at 11:26 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: > > > > It gets you a pile of data, which can be analyzed and from which value can > > be extracted. > > > > It's certainly better than having *no data*. > > Only if the data shows significant mindshare. Otherwise I'd rather > stick to handwaving. > > josh So you'd be happier with no news, rather than bad news? --g ------------------------------------------------------------- Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Project || fedoraproject.org Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors ------------------------------------------------------------- From jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org Thu Oct 5 20:30:01 2006 From: jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org (Josh Boyer) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 15:30:01 -0500 Subject: [fab] Re: splash page + tracking image example In-Reply-To: References: <1160001132.4193.283.camel@erato.phig.org> <45243C8A.1090804@fedoraproject.org> <1160006611.4193.301.camel@erato.phig.org> <1160061793.31974.9.camel@zod.rchland.ibm.com> <1160079341.31974.16.camel@zod.rchland.ibm.com> Message-ID: <1160080201.31974.21.camel@zod.rchland.ibm.com> On Thu, 2006-10-05 at 16:13 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > On Thu, 5 Oct 2006, Josh Boyer wrote: > > > On Thu, 2006-10-05 at 11:26 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: > > > > > > It gets you a pile of data, which can be analyzed and from which value can > > > be extracted. > > > > > > It's certainly better than having *no data*. > > > > Only if the data shows significant mindshare. Otherwise I'd rather > > stick to handwaving. > > > > josh > > So you'd be happier with no news, rather than bad news? I'm being realistic as a user. If the news is going to cut funding for Fedora, why would I want that? josh From mmcgrath at fedoraproject.org Thu Oct 5 20:33:02 2006 From: mmcgrath at fedoraproject.org (Mike McGrath) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 15:33:02 -0500 Subject: [fab] Re: splash page + tracking image example In-Reply-To: <3237e4410610051126u51d4f36er693b9caf2b3b838f@mail.gmail.com> References: <1160001132.4193.283.camel@erato.phig.org> <45243C8A.1090804@fedoraproject.org> <1160006611.4193.301.camel@erato.phig.org> <452529EE.6040800@bobjensen.com> <3237e4410610050920lc91dbb3wff6552788e9d0309@mail.gmail.com> <3237e4410610051126u51d4f36er693b9caf2b3b838f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3237e4410610051333u4890719dt87585bdf8c4679f4@mail.gmail.com> On 10/5/06, Mike McGrath wrote: > On 10/5/06, Max Spevack wrote: > > On Thu, 5 Oct 2006, Mike McGrath wrote: For interested parties, unique IP's contacting the mirrors site using the various archs (for rawhide last month) i386: 14000 x86_64: 1537 ppc: 109 -Mike From max at spevack.org Thu Oct 5 20:40:33 2006 From: max at spevack.org (Max Spevack) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 16:40:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Re: splash page + tracking image example In-Reply-To: <1160080201.31974.21.camel@zod.rchland.ibm.com> References: <1160001132.4193.283.camel@erato.phig.org> <45243C8A.1090804@fedoraproject.org> <1160006611.4193.301.camel@erato.phig.org> <1160061793.31974.9.camel@zod.rchland.ibm.com> <1160079341.31974.16.camel@zod.rchland.ibm.com> <1160080201.31974.21.camel@zod.rchland.ibm.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Oct 2006, Josh Boyer wrote: > I'm being realistic as a user. If the news is going to cut funding for > Fedora, why would I want that? There's no question about cutting funding for Fedora. The question is about being able to better justify *increases* in funding for Fedora. We need to know where we are. Regardless of what that number is, the goal will be to increase it. It's not like there's some magic number is someone's head that we have to hit. We just want to know what the reality is. -- Max Spevack + http://spevack.org + gpg key -- http://spevack.org/max.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From rgarth at gmail.com Thu Oct 5 23:23:31 2006 From: rgarth at gmail.com (Rob Garth) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 09:23:31 +1000 Subject: [fab] Re: splash page + tracking image example In-Reply-To: <1160061793.31974.9.camel@zod.rchland.ibm.com> References: <1160001132.4193.283.camel@erato.phig.org> <45243C8A.1090804@fedoraproject.org> <1160006611.4193.301.camel@erato.phig.org> <1160061793.31974.9.camel@zod.rchland.ibm.com> Message-ID: <183d138b0610051623g7cc516f1q9119b44b7f43be93@mail.gmail.com> I agree with Josh. But I agree with Max and Greg we need metrics now. I have over 500 workstations running Fedora. They all run through a proxy, so the IP method would not work. I run my own local yum mirrors, and only one of the workstations talk to even my own yum servers, and it doesn't look for mirrors, so the yum method would not work. But then as most of my machines are built from a single image, a firstboot method would not work anyway. I think the discussion of how to report metrics correctly needs to wait for another day, and for the moment Fedora needs to use yum, and if possible the firefox metric as well. Cheers, Rob Garth. On 10/6/06, Josh Boyer wrote: > On Thu, 2006-10-05 at 11:02 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: > > On Thu, 5 Oct 2006, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > > > > I don't believe we can. In my opinion, we need *urgently* to start > > > somewhere. It's the difference between building a funding plan now and > > > building it 6-9 months from now. > > > > This paragraph sums up my concern best. Greg did a superb job of > > elaborating the issues, so I won't prat on about it, but he is 100% > > correct when he says that any significant Fedora funding decisions require > > stronger metrics than we have been able to provide. > > > > Each day that we don't change that is a day in which we don't do anything > > to help ourselves. > > > > So from a high level I can say something like "I don't want us to ship fc6 > > without having some way to track how many people are actually *using* > > fc6". The firefox idea was a good way to track "Desktop" users -- folks > > who have installed X. > > > > Basically just counting unique IP addresses via yum is a good way to track > > many different types of installations, basically people who are updating > > regardless of their package set. > > No, it's not. DHCP, NAT, proxies, etc. all make "unique" IP addresses a > horrible metric. In some cases, you get a single IP address for a > number of different machines. In others, you get two IP addresses for > the same machine. > > Yes, counting IP addresses will give you a metric. I just don't think > that metric is good for much because you still don't know how many > machines really have Fedora installed. Is it better than nothing? I > don't know. > > josh > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board > From max at spevack.org Fri Oct 6 00:57:35 2006 From: max at spevack.org (Max Spevack) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 20:57:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Re: splash page + tracking image example In-Reply-To: <183d138b0610051623g7cc516f1q9119b44b7f43be93@mail.gmail.com> References: <1160001132.4193.283.camel@erato.phig.org> <45243C8A.1090804@fedoraproject.org> <1160006611.4193.301.camel@erato.phig.org> <1160061793.31974.9.camel@zod.rchland.ibm.com> <183d138b0610051623g7cc516f1q9119b44b7f43be93@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Oct 2006, Rob Garth wrote: > I agree with Josh. But I agree with Max and Greg we need metrics now. > > I have over 500 workstations running Fedora. They all run through a > proxy, so the IP method would not work. I run my own local yum Well, that's +500 to our numbers. :-) --Max From notting at redhat.com Fri Oct 6 01:11:17 2006 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 21:11:17 -0400 Subject: [fab] Re: splash page + tracking image example In-Reply-To: <3237e4410610051126u51d4f36er693b9caf2b3b838f@mail.gmail.com> References: <1160001132.4193.283.camel@erato.phig.org> <45243C8A.1090804@fedoraproject.org> <1160006611.4193.301.camel@erato.phig.org> <452529EE.6040800@bobjensen.com> <3237e4410610050920lc91dbb3wff6552788e9d0309@mail.gmail.com> <3237e4410610051126u51d4f36er693b9caf2b3b838f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20061006011117.GE3232@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Mike McGrath (mmcgrath at fedoraproject.org) said: > Actually using the yum method is already ready. I was looking at the > numbers for rawhide last night: > > Unique IP's: 15834 > Visits: 66472 > Hits: 605265 > Bandwidth: 259.05 MB This is over what time period? Also, how long has fedora-development actually been pointed at m.fp.o? Bill From mmcgrath at fedoraproject.org Fri Oct 6 01:25:30 2006 From: mmcgrath at fedoraproject.org (Mike McGrath) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 20:25:30 -0500 Subject: [fab] Re: splash page + tracking image example In-Reply-To: <20061006011117.GE3232@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1160001132.4193.283.camel@erato.phig.org> <45243C8A.1090804@fedoraproject.org> <1160006611.4193.301.camel@erato.phig.org> <452529EE.6040800@bobjensen.com> <3237e4410610050920lc91dbb3wff6552788e9d0309@mail.gmail.com> <3237e4410610051126u51d4f36er693b9caf2b3b838f@mail.gmail.com> <20061006011117.GE3232@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <3237e4410610051825p395de54r2f61041ffb398a7e@mail.gmail.com> On 10/5/06, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Mike McGrath (mmcgrath at fedoraproject.org) said: > > Actually using the yum method is already ready. I was looking at the > > numbers for rawhide last night: > > > > Unique IP's: 15834 > > Visits: 66472 > > Hits: 605265 > > Bandwidth: 259.05 MB > > This is over what time period? > > Also, how long has fedora-development actually been pointed at > m.fp.o? > > Bill The month of September and I think rawhide has been using that for a good chunk of that time but not the whole time. -Mike From smooge at gmail.com Fri Oct 6 03:04:40 2006 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 21:04:40 -0600 Subject: [fab] Re: splash page + tracking image example In-Reply-To: <183d138b0610051623g7cc516f1q9119b44b7f43be93@mail.gmail.com> References: <1160001132.4193.283.camel@erato.phig.org> <45243C8A.1090804@fedoraproject.org> <1160006611.4193.301.camel@erato.phig.org> <1160061793.31974.9.camel@zod.rchland.ibm.com> <183d138b0610051623g7cc516f1q9119b44b7f43be93@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <80d7e4090610052004h33cd8c5bhb595892d53241ea0@mail.gmail.com> On 10/5/06, Rob Garth wrote: > I agree with Josh. But I agree with Max and Greg we need metrics now. > > I have over 500 workstations running Fedora. They all run through a > proxy, so the IP method would not work. I run my own local yum > mirrors, and only one of the workstations talk to even my own yum > servers, and it doesn't look for mirrors, so the yum method would not > work. But then as most of my machines are built from a single image, a > firstboot method would not work anyway. > In cases like this, the only way that this would work is if the mirror system reported upstream (e.g. RHN satellite). There will always be sites like this, the only way I could see getting semi-accurate numbers on this would be a self-reporting method that would have to be non-anonymous and have a larger error bar when adding its numbers put into it. > I think the discussion of how to report metrics correctly needs to > wait for another day, and for the moment Fedora needs to use yum, and > if possible the firefox metric as well. > I guess another question management from above AND/OR FAB has to answer is how correct they need the numbers to be. At the moment the error range seems to be +/- 2 orders of magnitude, and needs to be reduced down to a linear function like +/- 10E4 systems. Knowing that FAB cares only for counts within say 10E4 systems means that you can use certain tools and not care about say trying to figure out the serial numbers of every system installed behind a firewall. -- Stephen J Smoogen. -- CSIRT/Linux System Administrator How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice" From rgarth at gmail.com Fri Oct 6 04:10:47 2006 From: rgarth at gmail.com (Rob Garth) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 14:10:47 +1000 Subject: [fab] Re: splash page + tracking image example In-Reply-To: <80d7e4090610052004h33cd8c5bhb595892d53241ea0@mail.gmail.com> References: <1160001132.4193.283.camel@erato.phig.org> <45243C8A.1090804@fedoraproject.org> <1160006611.4193.301.camel@erato.phig.org> <1160061793.31974.9.camel@zod.rchland.ibm.com> <183d138b0610051623g7cc516f1q9119b44b7f43be93@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090610052004h33cd8c5bhb595892d53241ea0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <183d138b0610052110n5e710329k7b10e890438dbbe3@mail.gmail.com> I would also suggest that most large deployments would be setup this way, so there is potential to miss huge numbers. Cheers, Rob Garth. On 10/6/06, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > On 10/5/06, Rob Garth wrote: > > I agree with Josh. But I agree with Max and Greg we need metrics now. > > > > I have over 500 workstations running Fedora. They all run through a > > proxy, so the IP method would not work. I run my own local yum > > mirrors, and only one of the workstations talk to even my own yum > > servers, and it doesn't look for mirrors, so the yum method would not > > work. But then as most of my machines are built from a single image, a > > firstboot method would not work anyway. > > > > In cases like this, the only way that this would work is if the mirror > system reported upstream (e.g. RHN satellite). There will always be > sites like this, the only way I could see getting semi-accurate > numbers on this would be a self-reporting method that would have to be > non-anonymous and have a larger error bar when adding its numbers put > into it. > > > I think the discussion of how to report metrics correctly needs to > > wait for another day, and for the moment Fedora needs to use yum, and > > if possible the firefox metric as well. > > > > I guess another question management from above AND/OR FAB has to > answer is how correct they need the numbers to be. At the moment the > error range seems to be +/- 2 orders of magnitude, and needs to be > reduced down to a linear function like +/- 10E4 systems. Knowing that > FAB cares only for counts within say 10E4 systems means that you can > use certain tools and not care about say trying to figure out the > serial numbers of every system installed behind a firewall. > > > -- > Stephen J Smoogen. -- CSIRT/Linux System Administrator > How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed > in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice" > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board > From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Fri Oct 6 04:16:10 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 00:16:10 -0400 Subject: [fab] Re: splash page + tracking image example In-Reply-To: <183d138b0610052110n5e710329k7b10e890438dbbe3@mail.gmail.com> References: <1160001132.4193.283.camel@erato.phig.org> <45243C8A.1090804@fedoraproject.org> <1160006611.4193.301.camel@erato.phig.org> <1160061793.31974.9.camel@zod.rchland.ibm.com> <183d138b0610051623g7cc516f1q9119b44b7f43be93@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090610052004h33cd8c5bhb595892d53241ea0@mail.gmail.com> <183d138b0610052110n5e710329k7b10e890438dbbe3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1160108170.25526.8.camel@cutter> On Fri, 2006-10-06 at 14:10 +1000, Rob Garth wrote: > I would also suggest that most large deployments would be setup this > way, so there is potential to miss huge numbers. > but those numbers wouldn't be seen via the firefox thing, either. we cannot have perfect. We can NEVER have perfect. We can just get some ideas. -sv From kwade at redhat.com Fri Oct 6 08:08:46 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 01:08:46 -0700 Subject: [fab] Re: splash page + tracking image example In-Reply-To: References: <1160001132.4193.283.camel@erato.phig.org> <45243C8A.1090804@fedoraproject.org> <1160006611.4193.301.camel@erato.phig.org> <1160061793.31974.9.camel@zod.rchland.ibm.com> <183d138b0610051623g7cc516f1q9119b44b7f43be93@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1160122126.4193.373.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2006-10-05 at 20:57 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: > On Fri, 6 Oct 2006, Rob Garth wrote: > > > I agree with Josh. But I agree with Max and Greg we need metrics now. > > > > I have over 500 workstations running Fedora. They all run through a > > proxy, so the IP method would not work. I run my own local yum > > Well, that's +500 to our numbers. :-) And +1 to the value of a survey. Survey results reveal what you cannot otherwise find out. Perhaps one of the survey questions would be, "What % of your machines go through some kind of proxy or use a local yum mirror?" We might be able to better tune our error correction on the other routes. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From blizzard at redhat.com Fri Oct 6 13:35:26 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 09:35:26 -0400 Subject: [fab] Re: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: <3237e4410610050538h3797e4d4t34d4c23e1133a5d1@mail.gmail.com> References: <1160014650.16598.5.camel@cutter> <45247E60.5050901@redhat.com> <1160020908.16598.35.camel@cutter> <4524873C.2050602@bobjensen.com> <3237e4410610050538h3797e4d4t34d4c23e1133a5d1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45265B9E.80701@redhat.com> Mike McGrath wrote: > On 10/4/06, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: >> >> On Wed, 4 Oct 2006, Robert 'Bob' Jensen wrote: >> >> > I hope you are understanding it correctly because that is how I >> > understand it. I think this is the best idea I have heard so far. >> >> There is a subset of users -- we don't know how large -- who will never >> use yum because either (a) they won't have the bandwidth to use it, or >> (b) >> they won't even understand that they need to use it. >> >> I still think that the Firefox technique will give us a better >> cross-section of data. >> >> Let me think about it. I need to send a note to the docs folks anyway -- >> part apology, part analysis. I'll cc: this group as well. >> > > Just pointing out that about half of the machines I install FC on > don't have X installed, much less firefox. That's a good reason to put a tool in that does register new servers. Well, maybe register is the wrong word. That implies a lot of things to me. But certainly "get counted." Which is different than "track." I guess it's good to talk about the metrics we're interested in. That will drive how we build something: 1. Tracking unique desktop users. Also, how long do they use it for? On the weekends? On weekdays? Do they stop after a number of days of use? One day never to return? These are very useful statistics in realizing what kind of job we're doing. 2. Tracking server installs and how long they stay installed. Not quite the same as the desktop stuff because they are used differently. But knowing how long they live on the interweb is interesting. Once again, counting, not tracking. --Chris From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Fri Oct 6 13:42:02 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 09:42:02 -0400 Subject: [fab] Re: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: <45265B9E.80701@redhat.com> References: <1160014650.16598.5.camel@cutter> <45247E60.5050901@redhat.com> <1160020908.16598.35.camel@cutter> <4524873C.2050602@bobjensen.com> <3237e4410610050538h3797e4d4t34d4c23e1133a5d1@mail.gmail.com> <45265B9E.80701@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1160142122.25526.27.camel@cutter> On Fri, 2006-10-06 at 09:35 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > Mike McGrath wrote: > > On 10/4/06, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > >> > >> On Wed, 4 Oct 2006, Robert 'Bob' Jensen wrote: > >> > >> > I hope you are understanding it correctly because that is how I > >> > understand it. I think this is the best idea I have heard so far. > >> > >> There is a subset of users -- we don't know how large -- who will never > >> use yum because either (a) they won't have the bandwidth to use it, or > >> (b) > >> they won't even understand that they need to use it. > >> > >> I still think that the Firefox technique will give us a better > >> cross-section of data. > >> > >> Let me think about it. I need to send a note to the docs folks anyway -- > >> part apology, part analysis. I'll cc: this group as well. > >> > > > > Just pointing out that about half of the machines I install FC on > > don't have X installed, much less firefox. > > That's a good reason to put a tool in that does register new servers. > Well, maybe register is the wrong word. That implies a lot of things to > me. But certainly "get counted." Which is different than "track." > > I guess it's good to talk about the metrics we're interested in. That > will drive how we build something: > > 1. Tracking unique desktop users. Also, how long do they use it for? > On the weekends? On weekdays? Do they stop after a number of days of > use? One day never to return? These are very useful statistics in > realizing what kind of job we're doing. > that's more invasive than I think we should be. we can count the total number of connections and we can count the connections to which distro and on which days. But we SHOULD NOT track a given ip to figure out what they're doing and/or when. That's inappropriate and I will resist it. -sv From blizzard at redhat.com Fri Oct 6 13:46:07 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 09:46:07 -0400 Subject: [fab] Re: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: References: <1160014650.16598.5.camel@cutter> <4524873C.2050602@bobjensen.com> <200610051012.33398.jkeating@redhat.com> Message-ID: <45265E1F.50700@redhat.com> Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > On Thu, 5 Oct 2006, Jesse Keating wrote: > >> On Thursday 05 October 2006 00:19, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: >>> There is a subset of users -- we don't know how large -- who will never >>> use yum because either (a) they won't have the bandwidth to use it, or (b) >>> they won't even understand that they need to use it. >> But thats OK because yum-updatesd runs by default and hits the webpage FOR >> them. > > I did not know that. If that's the case, then it's an absolute > no-brainer. "hitting a web page" isn't an interesting metric to me. 50,000 hits isn't as interesting as 5,000 users. And hits do not translate into users. Cookies let you pick out users, as do explicit registration tools. And they give you some sense of use and length of use. Hits don't. > > The rich irony here, of course, is that rather than tell users we're > tracking them, we will instead be able to track them invisibly through the > normal operation of their systems. But I'm perfectly happy either way, > so. Not tracking. Just counting. --Chris From blizzard at redhat.com Fri Oct 6 13:48:15 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 09:48:15 -0400 Subject: [fab] Re: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: <1160142122.25526.27.camel@cutter> References: <1160014650.16598.5.camel@cutter> <45247E60.5050901@redhat.com> <1160020908.16598.35.camel@cutter> <4524873C.2050602@bobjensen.com> <3237e4410610050538h3797e4d4t34d4c23e1133a5d1@mail.gmail.com> <45265B9E.80701@redhat.com> <1160142122.25526.27.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <45265E9F.30900@redhat.com> seth vidal wrote: > > > that's more invasive than I think we should be. > > we can count the total number of connections and we can count the > connections to which distro and on which days. > > But we SHOULD NOT track a given ip to figure out what they're doing > and/or when. > > That's inappropriate and I will resist it. I'm not that interested in the what or the who - just the if. That is, are they using it? That's it. --Chris From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Fri Oct 6 14:11:54 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 10:11:54 -0400 Subject: [fab] Re: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: <45265E9F.30900@redhat.com> References: <1160014650.16598.5.camel@cutter> <45247E60.5050901@redhat.com> <1160020908.16598.35.camel@cutter> <4524873C.2050602@bobjensen.com> <3237e4410610050538h3797e4d4t34d4c23e1133a5d1@mail.gmail.com> <45265B9E.80701@redhat.com> <1160142122.25526.27.camel@cutter> <45265E9F.30900@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1160143914.28888.2.camel@cutter> On Fri, 2006-10-06 at 09:48 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > seth vidal wrote: > > > > > > that's more invasive than I think we should be. > > > > we can count the total number of connections and we can count the > > connections to which distro and on which days. > > > > But we SHOULD NOT track a given ip to figure out what they're doing > > and/or when. > > > > That's inappropriate and I will resist it. > > I'm not that interested in the what or the who - just the if. That is, > are they using it? That's it. Then choose your terminology much more carefully. It sounds a lot like you're interested in individual ips/users and when they interact with the system. -sv From notting at redhat.com Fri Oct 6 15:01:49 2006 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 11:01:49 -0400 Subject: [fab] Re: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: <1160143914.28888.2.camel@cutter> References: <45247E60.5050901@redhat.com> <1160020908.16598.35.camel@cutter> <4524873C.2050602@bobjensen.com> <3237e4410610050538h3797e4d4t34d4c23e1133a5d1@mail.gmail.com> <45265B9E.80701@redhat.com> <1160142122.25526.27.camel@cutter> <45265E9F.30900@redhat.com> <1160143914.28888.2.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <20061006150149.GA9345@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> seth vidal (skvidal at linux.duke.edu) said: > Then choose your terminology much more carefully. It sounds a lot like > you're interested in individual ips/users and when they interact with > the system. Other sorts of general demographics would be good - of the 200 packages in updates, or the 5000 packages in Extras, which are getting the most hits? This is information we could generate now, but we don't. Bill From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Fri Oct 6 15:07:37 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 11:07:37 -0400 Subject: [fab] Re: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: <20061006150149.GA9345@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <45247E60.5050901@redhat.com> <1160020908.16598.35.camel@cutter> <4524873C.2050602@bobjensen.com> <3237e4410610050538h3797e4d4t34d4c23e1133a5d1@mail.gmail.com> <45265B9E.80701@redhat.com> <1160142122.25526.27.camel@cutter> <45265E9F.30900@redhat.com> <1160143914.28888.2.camel@cutter> <20061006150149.GA9345@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1160147257.28924.9.camel@cutter> On Fri, 2006-10-06 at 11:01 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > seth vidal (skvidal at linux.duke.edu) said: > > Then choose your terminology much more carefully. It sounds a lot like > > you're interested in individual ips/users and when they interact with > > the system. > > Other sorts of general demographics would be good - of the 200 packages > in updates, or the 5000 packages in Extras, which are getting the most > hits? This is information we could generate now, but we don't. > no, actually, we can't. the mirrorlist cgi just generates a list of mirrors that users can then draw from. It doesn't track each and every hit. -sv From mmcgrath at fedoraproject.org Fri Oct 6 15:04:55 2006 From: mmcgrath at fedoraproject.org (Mike McGrath) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 10:04:55 -0500 Subject: [fab] Re: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: <20061006150149.GA9345@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <45247E60.5050901@redhat.com> <4524873C.2050602@bobjensen.com> <3237e4410610050538h3797e4d4t34d4c23e1133a5d1@mail.gmail.com> <45265B9E.80701@redhat.com> <1160142122.25526.27.camel@cutter> <45265E9F.30900@redhat.com> <1160143914.28888.2.camel@cutter> <20061006150149.GA9345@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <3237e4410610060804u4dc9db44j964495e8ecb59c75@mail.gmail.com> On 10/6/06, Bill Nottingham wrote: > seth vidal (skvidal at linux.duke.edu) said: > > Then choose your terminology much more carefully. It sounds a lot like > > you're interested in individual ips/users and when they interact with > > the system. > > Other sorts of general demographics would be good - of the 200 packages > in updates, or the 5000 packages in Extras, which are getting the most > hits? This is information we could generate now, but we don't. > > Bill > Actually we can't get this information AFAIK without the cooporation of our mirrors. -Mike From notting at redhat.com Fri Oct 6 15:11:16 2006 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 11:11:16 -0400 Subject: [fab] Re: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: <1160147257.28924.9.camel@cutter> References: <4524873C.2050602@bobjensen.com> <3237e4410610050538h3797e4d4t34d4c23e1133a5d1@mail.gmail.com> <45265B9E.80701@redhat.com> <1160142122.25526.27.camel@cutter> <45265E9F.30900@redhat.com> <1160143914.28888.2.camel@cutter> <20061006150149.GA9345@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1160147257.28924.9.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <20061006151116.GB9345@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> seth vidal (skvidal at linux.duke.edu) said: > no, actually, we can't. > > the mirrorlist cgi just generates a list of mirrors that users can then > draw from. It doesn't track each and every hit. Bummer. I suppose we could track it for d.f.r.c and any mirror who wants to participate. Bill From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Fri Oct 6 15:17:09 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 11:17:09 -0400 Subject: [fab] Re: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: <20061006151116.GB9345@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <4524873C.2050602@bobjensen.com> <3237e4410610050538h3797e4d4t34d4c23e1133a5d1@mail.gmail.com> <45265B9E.80701@redhat.com> <1160142122.25526.27.camel@cutter> <45265E9F.30900@redhat.com> <1160143914.28888.2.camel@cutter> <20061006150149.GA9345@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1160147257.28924.9.camel@cutter> <20061006151116.GB9345@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1160147829.28924.12.camel@cutter> On Fri, 2006-10-06 at 11:11 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > seth vidal (skvidal at linux.duke.edu) said: > > no, actually, we can't. > > > > the mirrorlist cgi just generates a list of mirrors that users can then > > draw from. It doesn't track each and every hit. > > Bummer. I suppose we could track it for d.f.r.c and any mirror who wants > to participate. > hah. I can imagine how much fun parsing and correlating the different log types will be. If that project decides to start count me out, okay? :) -sv From mmcgrath at fedoraproject.org Fri Oct 6 15:21:32 2006 From: mmcgrath at fedoraproject.org (Mike McGrath) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 10:21:32 -0500 Subject: [fab] Metrics: What we *could* get Message-ID: <3237e4410610060821v1b086c26h72735c4d231b44ee@mail.gmail.com> Since we're all in the metrics mood I thought it would be good to get a list of stats I think we could get, from a technology point of view, not from a 'we should' view. Hopefully to get us thinking about what we can do for FC7. Can Gets: Number of times an install completes - Phone home at end of install, won't work for installs that happen with machines offline. Number of unique public IP's doing updates - What we're doing with the yum logs, won't work for users contacting their own mirrors or specifying public mirrors that aren't ours. We'll miss groups using nat, and people on dynamic IP's will get counted multiple times. Number of OS's doing updates - By generating a key we can see how many updates are being done by which os's. If a machine is installed multiple times and updated multiple times it will get counted multiple times. Registered Installs + phone-homes - Similar like RHN, require registration or generate a unique key during the install phase and then have those machines check in periodically. This will not give us machines not on the net. Surveys: Just ask the users 'how many installs do you have, what do you use them for'. This will get us information from the people that respond. Registered users: similar to survey, we'd get a list of registered users. Registered users + registered installs + phone-homes - This is the most accurate way to get actual users who are using Fedora at a given point in time and it is flawed. It would give us a count of users and how many installs are out there. Can't gets (Or at least I can't figure it out): People using Fedora: If we start talking about schools and public labs, etc. This number is impossible to get Number of installs at any point in time: Machines could be on, off, not on a network, not updating, blah blah. This number is impossible to get. The closest we can come is the registered install + phone home. Number of desktop vs servers: The definition of workstation / server is vague and unless we specifically ask in a survey during the install, we'll never know. Basically its difficult to get the numbers we actually want. I'd imagine Microsoft doesn't even have an accurate count of machines that are installed out there and they gone to great lengths, including limiting the use of the OS, to get this information. In our case I think we should keep it simple. -Mike From smooge at gmail.com Fri Oct 6 16:28:42 2006 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 10:28:42 -0600 Subject: [fab] Re: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: <1160142122.25526.27.camel@cutter> References: <1160014650.16598.5.camel@cutter> <45247E60.5050901@redhat.com> <1160020908.16598.35.camel@cutter> <4524873C.2050602@bobjensen.com> <3237e4410610050538h3797e4d4t34d4c23e1133a5d1@mail.gmail.com> <45265B9E.80701@redhat.com> <1160142122.25526.27.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <80d7e4090610060928h35420d60vb26b2be7825b1a6c@mail.gmail.com> On 10/6/06, seth vidal wrote: > On Fri, 2006-10-06 at 09:35 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > > Mike McGrath wrote: > > > On 10/4/06, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > >> > > >> On Wed, 4 Oct 2006, Robert 'Bob' Jensen wrote: > > >> > > >> > I hope you are understanding it correctly because that is how I > > >> > understand it. I think this is the best idea I have heard so far. > > >> > > >> There is a subset of users -- we don't know how large -- who will never > > >> use yum because either (a) they won't have the bandwidth to use it, or > > >> (b) > > >> they won't even understand that they need to use it. > > >> > > >> I still think that the Firefox technique will give us a better > > >> cross-section of data. > > >> > > >> Let me think about it. I need to send a note to the docs folks anyway -- > > >> part apology, part analysis. I'll cc: this group as well. > > >> > > > > > > Just pointing out that about half of the machines I install FC on > > > don't have X installed, much less firefox. > > > > That's a good reason to put a tool in that does register new servers. > > Well, maybe register is the wrong word. That implies a lot of things to > > me. But certainly "get counted." Which is different than "track." > > > > I guess it's good to talk about the metrics we're interested in. That > > will drive how we build something: > > > > 1. Tracking unique desktop users. Also, how long do they use it for? > > On the weekends? On weekdays? Do they stop after a number of days of > > use? One day never to return? These are very useful statistics in > > realizing what kind of job we're doing. > > > > > that's more invasive than I think we should be. > > we can count the total number of connections and we can count the > connections to which distro and on which days. > > But we SHOULD NOT track a given ip to figure out what they're doing > and/or when. > > That's inappropriate and I will resist it. > It is inappropriate if it is not known by the user. If it is a voluntary agreement between the user and the Fedora Group that the user knows what is tracked, how the data is anonymized, how the data is being used, and how it can be turned off then it is something that people can trust and not in my view of the world inappropriate. Example: Inappropriate: Putting the tracking data into mugshot and installing it by default into FC7. A person sees a benefit but doesnt know that they are being tracked. Appropriate: On first login of a desktop, if the fedora-help-us-help-you.rpm is installed, then a pop-up comes to the user and says: we would like to get data from your usage of the desktop. These are the things that we are tracking, and if you want to participate click yes. If you want to see what we collected, click on the blue hat in the corner, if you want to stop collecting, either remove the RPM or right click on the blue hat and choose "Stop tracking." -- Stephen J Smoogen. -- CSIRT/Linux System Administrator How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice" From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Fri Oct 6 16:33:34 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 12:33:34 -0400 Subject: [fab] Re: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: <80d7e4090610060928h35420d60vb26b2be7825b1a6c@mail.gmail.com> References: <1160014650.16598.5.camel@cutter> <45247E60.5050901@redhat.com> <1160020908.16598.35.camel@cutter> <4524873C.2050602@bobjensen.com> <3237e4410610050538h3797e4d4t34d4c23e1133a5d1@mail.gmail.com> <45265B9E.80701@redhat.com> <1160142122.25526.27.camel@cutter> <80d7e4090610060928h35420d60vb26b2be7825b1a6c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1160152414.28924.18.camel@cutter> On Fri, 2006-10-06 at 10:28 -0600, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > On 10/6/06, seth vidal wrote: > > On Fri, 2006-10-06 at 09:35 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > > > Mike McGrath wrote: > > > > On 10/4/06, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > > >> > > > >> On Wed, 4 Oct 2006, Robert 'Bob' Jensen wrote: > > > >> > > > >> > I hope you are understanding it correctly because that is how I > > > >> > understand it. I think this is the best idea I have heard so far. > > > >> > > > >> There is a subset of users -- we don't know how large -- who will never > > > >> use yum because either (a) they won't have the bandwidth to use it, or > > > >> (b) > > > >> they won't even understand that they need to use it. > > > >> > > > >> I still think that the Firefox technique will give us a better > > > >> cross-section of data. > > > >> > > > >> Let me think about it. I need to send a note to the docs folks anyway -- > > > >> part apology, part analysis. I'll cc: this group as well. > > > >> > > > > > > > > Just pointing out that about half of the machines I install FC on > > > > don't have X installed, much less firefox. > > > > > > That's a good reason to put a tool in that does register new servers. > > > Well, maybe register is the wrong word. That implies a lot of things to > > > me. But certainly "get counted." Which is different than "track." > > > > > > I guess it's good to talk about the metrics we're interested in. That > > > will drive how we build something: > > > > > > 1. Tracking unique desktop users. Also, how long do they use it for? > > > On the weekends? On weekdays? Do they stop after a number of days of > > > use? One day never to return? These are very useful statistics in > > > realizing what kind of job we're doing. > > > > > > > > > that's more invasive than I think we should be. > > > > we can count the total number of connections and we can count the > > connections to which distro and on which days. > > > > But we SHOULD NOT track a given ip to figure out what they're doing > > and/or when. > > > > That's inappropriate and I will resist it. > > > > It is inappropriate if it is not known by the user. If it is a > voluntary agreement between the user and the Fedora Group that the > user knows what is tracked, how the data is anonymized, how the data > is being used, and how it can be turned off then it is something that > people can trust and not in my view of the world inappropriate. > > Example: > > Inappropriate: Putting the tracking data into mugshot and installing > it by default into FC7. A person sees a benefit but doesnt know that > they are being tracked. > > Appropriate: On first login of a desktop, if the > fedora-help-us-help-you.rpm is installed, then a pop-up comes to the > user and says: we would like to get data from your usage of the > desktop. These are the things that we are tracking, and if you want to > participate click yes. If you want to see what we collected, click on > the blue hat in the corner, if you want to stop collecting, either > remove the RPM or right click on the blue hat and choose "Stop > tracking." opt-out is the WRONG way of doing this. It makes fedora malware. -sv From blizzard at redhat.com Fri Oct 6 16:35:17 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 12:35:17 -0400 Subject: [fab] Metrics: What we *could* get In-Reply-To: <3237e4410610060821v1b086c26h72735c4d231b44ee@mail.gmail.com> References: <3237e4410610060821v1b086c26h72735c4d231b44ee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <452685C5.9020100@redhat.com> Just a point here. It's important to point out that we're interested in something that's a good guess. Not something that's perfect. We'll never build a perfect system, but that doesn't mean that we should avoid building something that's decent. --Chris From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Fri Oct 6 16:39:49 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 12:39:49 -0400 Subject: [fab] Metrics: What we *could* get In-Reply-To: <452685C5.9020100@redhat.com> References: <3237e4410610060821v1b086c26h72735c4d231b44ee@mail.gmail.com> <452685C5.9020100@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1160152789.28924.22.camel@cutter> On Fri, 2006-10-06 at 12:35 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > Just a point here. It's important to point out that we're interested in > something that's a good guess. Not something that's perfect. We'll > never build a perfect system, but that doesn't mean that we should avoid > building something that's decent. heh, from what people have described so far here they don't even want perfect. They want something that tells them what they want to hear. I can write that: print "100000000 downloaded fc6" -sv From blizzard at redhat.com Fri Oct 6 16:40:26 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 12:40:26 -0400 Subject: [fab] Re: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: <1160143914.28888.2.camel@cutter> References: <1160014650.16598.5.camel@cutter> <45247E60.5050901@redhat.com> <1160020908.16598.35.camel@cutter> <4524873C.2050602@bobjensen.com> <3237e4410610050538h3797e4d4t34d4c23e1133a5d1@mail.gmail.com> <45265B9E.80701@redhat.com> <1160142122.25526.27.camel@cutter> <45265E9F.30900@redhat.com> <1160143914.28888.2.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <452686FA.3070605@redhat.com> seth vidal wrote: >>> That's inappropriate and I will resist it. >> I'm not that interested in the what or the who - just the if. That is, >> are they using it? That's it. > > Then choose your terminology much more carefully. It sounds a lot like > you're interested in individual ips/users and when they interact with > the system. I'm interested in some set of those. Bill (in another message) talks about tracking what packages people are using. As part of what I'm suggesting (just a web cookie or auto generated uuid on the system) isn't that. Doesn't show what someone is doing, or what they have used it for. Just that it exists. --Chris From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Fri Oct 6 16:45:08 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 12:45:08 -0400 Subject: [fab] Re: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: <452686FA.3070605@redhat.com> References: <1160014650.16598.5.camel@cutter> <45247E60.5050901@redhat.com> <1160020908.16598.35.camel@cutter> <4524873C.2050602@bobjensen.com> <3237e4410610050538h3797e4d4t34d4c23e1133a5d1@mail.gmail.com> <45265B9E.80701@redhat.com> <1160142122.25526.27.camel@cutter> <45265E9F.30900@redhat.com> <1160143914.28888.2.camel@cutter> <452686FA.3070605@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1160153108.28924.24.camel@cutter> On Fri, 2006-10-06 at 12:40 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > seth vidal wrote: > >>> That's inappropriate and I will resist it. > >> I'm not that interested in the what or the who - just the if. That is, > >> are they using it? That's it. > > > > Then choose your terminology much more carefully. It sounds a lot like > > you're interested in individual ips/users and when they interact with > > the system. > > I'm interested in some set of those. Bill (in another message) talks > about tracking what packages people are using. As part of what I'm > suggesting (just a web cookie or auto generated uuid on the system) > isn't that. Doesn't show what someone is doing, or what they have used > it for. Just that it exists. > and it shows that they download tor, gpg and seahorse then a lot can be inferred by that list. HAVING the information means that others can subpoena it. -sv From blizzard at redhat.com Fri Oct 6 16:42:21 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 12:42:21 -0400 Subject: [fab] Re: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: <80d7e4090610060928h35420d60vb26b2be7825b1a6c@mail.gmail.com> References: <1160014650.16598.5.camel@cutter> <45247E60.5050901@redhat.com> <1160020908.16598.35.camel@cutter> <4524873C.2050602@bobjensen.com> <3237e4410610050538h3797e4d4t34d4c23e1133a5d1@mail.gmail.com> <45265B9E.80701@redhat.com> <1160142122.25526.27.camel@cutter> <80d7e4090610060928h35420d60vb26b2be7825b1a6c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4526876D.1040609@redhat.com> Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > It is inappropriate if it is not known by the user. If it is a > voluntary agreement between the user and the Fedora Group that the > user knows what is tracked, how the data is anonymized, how the data > is being used, and how it can be turned off then it is something that > people can trust and not in my view of the world inappropriate. Just curious. Do you feel that we ship without the big cookie warning turned on by default in firefox as an example of something that's inappropriate? --Chris From smooge at gmail.com Fri Oct 6 16:46:37 2006 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 10:46:37 -0600 Subject: [fab] Metrics: What we *could* get In-Reply-To: <3237e4410610060821v1b086c26h72735c4d231b44ee@mail.gmail.com> References: <3237e4410610060821v1b086c26h72735c4d231b44ee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <80d7e4090610060946h6be8e8f8kf1820d831bb71a9c@mail.gmail.com> On 10/6/06, Mike McGrath wrote: > Since we're all in the metrics mood I thought it would be good to get > a list of stats I think we could get, from a technology point of view, > not from a 'we should' view. Hopefully to get us thinking about what > we can do for FC7. > What I learned in trying to help RH get good metrics on webpages and marketing schemes was 2 things: 1) Perfect is the enemy of the good. 2) Most people do not know what statistics they want until they see them. We are not going to get perfect statistics. The biggest problem is accepting that and figuring out what we can live with during each release cycle. We will know that any number we have has a counting error.. and if we use 2-3 'independant' methods, we can figure out what that error margin is. After we collect that data, FAB and the people who pull its strings will say "can you figure out" something we didnt count.. some of that we will be able to do and some we wont. -- Stephen J Smoogen. -- CSIRT/Linux System Administrator How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice" From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Fri Oct 6 16:50:36 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 12:50:36 -0400 Subject: [fab] Re: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: <4526876D.1040609@redhat.com> References: <1160014650.16598.5.camel@cutter> <45247E60.5050901@redhat.com> <1160020908.16598.35.camel@cutter> <4524873C.2050602@bobjensen.com> <3237e4410610050538h3797e4d4t34d4c23e1133a5d1@mail.gmail.com> <45265B9E.80701@redhat.com> <1160142122.25526.27.camel@cutter> <80d7e4090610060928h35420d60vb26b2be7825b1a6c@mail.gmail.com> <4526876D.1040609@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1160153436.28924.26.camel@cutter> On Fri, 2006-10-06 at 12:42 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > > It is inappropriate if it is not known by the user. If it is a > > voluntary agreement between the user and the Fedora Group that the > > user knows what is tracked, how the data is anonymized, how the data > > is being used, and how it can be turned off then it is something that > > people can trust and not in my view of the world inappropriate. > > Just curious. Do you feel that we ship without the big cookie warning > turned on by default in firefox as an example of something that's > inappropriate? > If we're using that being disabled to allow us to gather more tracking information then yes. We're CHOOSING to disable items that would let the user know we're tracking them. It's like Gator - but for linux. -sv From blizzard at redhat.com Fri Oct 6 16:51:58 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 12:51:58 -0400 Subject: [fab] Re: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: <1160153108.28924.24.camel@cutter> References: <1160014650.16598.5.camel@cutter> <45247E60.5050901@redhat.com> <1160020908.16598.35.camel@cutter> <4524873C.2050602@bobjensen.com> <3237e4410610050538h3797e4d4t34d4c23e1133a5d1@mail.gmail.com> <45265B9E.80701@redhat.com> <1160142122.25526.27.camel@cutter> <45265E9F.30900@redhat.com> <1160143914.28888.2.camel@cutter> <452686FA.3070605@redhat.com> <1160153108.28924.24.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <452689AE.6050708@redhat.com> seth vidal wrote: > On Fri, 2006-10-06 at 12:40 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: >> seth vidal wrote: >>>>> That's inappropriate and I will resist it. >>>> I'm not that interested in the what or the who - just the if. That is, >>>> are they using it? That's it. >>> Then choose your terminology much more carefully. It sounds a lot like >>> you're interested in individual ips/users and when they interact with >>> the system. >> I'm interested in some set of those. Bill (in another message) talks >> about tracking what packages people are using. As part of what I'm >> suggesting (just a web cookie or auto generated uuid on the system) >> isn't that. Doesn't show what someone is doing, or what they have used >> it for. Just that it exists. >> > > and it shows that they download tor, gpg and seahorse then a lot can be > inferred by that list. > > HAVING the information means that others can subpoena it. That depends on how you collect that information. I think you're assuming that the collection is connected to the package manager. It certainly doesn't have to be that way. Collect it on another server entirely, don't correlate UUIDs or cookies to IP addresses and ditch old cookies that only show up once after some certain amount of time. You can only correlate those things if you choose to. Or you make poor system design choices. You're worried about a subpoena. What I'm saying is that if someone did that and asked for "the information" they would get a response that says something like: "Yes, some computer out there generated an ID and submitted it to our system. Sometimes it returns to reping us as well." --Chris From smooge at gmail.com Fri Oct 6 16:52:44 2006 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 10:52:44 -0600 Subject: [fab] Re: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: <1160152414.28924.18.camel@cutter> References: <1160014650.16598.5.camel@cutter> <1160020908.16598.35.camel@cutter> <4524873C.2050602@bobjensen.com> <3237e4410610050538h3797e4d4t34d4c23e1133a5d1@mail.gmail.com> <45265B9E.80701@redhat.com> <1160142122.25526.27.camel@cutter> <80d7e4090610060928h35420d60vb26b2be7825b1a6c@mail.gmail.com> <1160152414.28924.18.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <80d7e4090610060952t3f4bf69dyb86c5a5ba8e1902@mail.gmail.com> On 10/6/06, seth vidal wrote: > > Appropriate: On first login of a desktop, if the > > fedora-help-us-help-you.rpm is installed, then a pop-up comes to the > > user and says: we would like to get data from your usage of the > > desktop. These are the things that we are tracking, and if you want to > > participate click yes. If you want to see what we collected, click on > > the blue hat in the corner, if you want to stop collecting, either > > remove the RPM or right click on the blue hat and choose "Stop > > tracking." > > opt-out is the WRONG way of doing this. > > It makes fedora malware. > You didnt read correctly. I said "If you want to participate, click yes.". THat is Opt-in. If I didnt make it in bold letters for you, sorry. -- Stephen J Smoogen. -- CSIRT/Linux System Administrator How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice" From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Fri Oct 6 16:58:40 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 12:58:40 -0400 Subject: [fab] Re: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: <80d7e4090610060952t3f4bf69dyb86c5a5ba8e1902@mail.gmail.com> References: <1160014650.16598.5.camel@cutter> <1160020908.16598.35.camel@cutter> <4524873C.2050602@bobjensen.com> <3237e4410610050538h3797e4d4t34d4c23e1133a5d1@mail.gmail.com> <45265B9E.80701@redhat.com> <1160142122.25526.27.camel@cutter> <80d7e4090610060928h35420d60vb26b2be7825b1a6c@mail.gmail.com> <1160152414.28924.18.camel@cutter> <80d7e4090610060952t3f4bf69dyb86c5a5ba8e1902@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1160153920.28924.30.camel@cutter> On Fri, 2006-10-06 at 10:52 -0600, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > On 10/6/06, seth vidal wrote: > > > > Appropriate: On first login of a desktop, if the > > > fedora-help-us-help-you.rpm is installed, then a pop-up comes to the > > > user and says: we would like to get data from your usage of the > > > desktop. These are the things that we are tracking, and if you want to > > > participate click yes. If you want to see what we collected, click on > > > the blue hat in the corner, if you want to stop collecting, either > > > remove the RPM or right click on the blue hat and choose "Stop > > > tracking." > > > > opt-out is the WRONG way of doing this. > > > > It makes fedora malware. > > > > You didnt read correctly. I said "If you want to participate, click > yes.". THat is Opt-in. > > If I didnt make it in bold letters for you, sorry. no need for the sarcasm I must have inverted the meaning, then. sorry. -sv From blizzard at redhat.com Fri Oct 6 16:57:08 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 12:57:08 -0400 Subject: [fab] Re: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: <1160153436.28924.26.camel@cutter> References: <1160014650.16598.5.camel@cutter> <45247E60.5050901@redhat.com> <1160020908.16598.35.camel@cutter> <4524873C.2050602@bobjensen.com> <3237e4410610050538h3797e4d4t34d4c23e1133a5d1@mail.gmail.com> <45265B9E.80701@redhat.com> <1160142122.25526.27.camel@cutter> <80d7e4090610060928h35420d60vb26b2be7825b1a6c@mail.gmail.com> <4526876D.1040609@redhat.com> <1160153436.28924.26.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <45268AE4.1030809@redhat.com> seth vidal wrote: > On Fri, 2006-10-06 at 12:42 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: >> Stephen John Smoogen wrote: >>> It is inappropriate if it is not known by the user. If it is a >>> voluntary agreement between the user and the Fedora Group that the >>> user knows what is tracked, how the data is anonymized, how the data >>> is being used, and how it can be turned off then it is something that >>> people can trust and not in my view of the world inappropriate. >> Just curious. Do you feel that we ship without the big cookie warning >> turned on by default in firefox as an example of something that's >> inappropriate? >> > > If we're using that being disabled to allow us to gather more tracking > information then yes. We're CHOOSING to disable items that would let the > user know we're tracking them. So that default applies to google, redhat.com and lots of other sites. It's part of how the web works today. And once again, tracking implies some kind of nefarious end or big brother type thing. Once again, I'm just interested in if you're using it, not what you're doing with it or who you are. --Chris From blizzard at redhat.com Fri Oct 6 16:59:57 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 12:59:57 -0400 Subject: [fab] Metrics: What we *could* get In-Reply-To: <1160152789.28924.22.camel@cutter> References: <3237e4410610060821v1b086c26h72735c4d231b44ee@mail.gmail.com> <452685C5.9020100@redhat.com> <1160152789.28924.22.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <45268B8D.4000701@redhat.com> seth vidal wrote: > On Fri, 2006-10-06 at 12:35 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: >> Just a point here. It's important to point out that we're interested in >> something that's a good guess. Not something that's perfect. We'll >> never build a perfect system, but that doesn't mean that we should avoid >> building something that's decent. > > heh, from what people have described so far here they don't even want > perfect. They want something that tells them what they want to hear. > > I can write that: > print "100000000 downloaded fc6" I, for one, am interested in better numbers. I'm not looking for an outcome. But right now what I have is just based on innuendo and wild ass guessing. I'd be happy if I could just get to guessing without all the wild asses. As fun as that sounds. --Chris From smooge at gmail.com Fri Oct 6 17:04:40 2006 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 11:04:40 -0600 Subject: [fab] Re: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: <1160153920.28924.30.camel@cutter> References: <1160014650.16598.5.camel@cutter> <4524873C.2050602@bobjensen.com> <3237e4410610050538h3797e4d4t34d4c23e1133a5d1@mail.gmail.com> <45265B9E.80701@redhat.com> <1160142122.25526.27.camel@cutter> <80d7e4090610060928h35420d60vb26b2be7825b1a6c@mail.gmail.com> <1160152414.28924.18.camel@cutter> <80d7e4090610060952t3f4bf69dyb86c5a5ba8e1902@mail.gmail.com> <1160153920.28924.30.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <80d7e4090610061004y1d029c19p26b82f81389605b9@mail.gmail.com> On 10/6/06, seth vidal wrote: > On Fri, 2006-10-06 at 10:52 -0600, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > > On 10/6/06, seth vidal wrote: > > > > > > Appropriate: On first login of a desktop, if the > > > > fedora-help-us-help-you.rpm is installed, then a pop-up comes to the > > > > user and says: we would like to get data from your usage of the > > > > desktop. These are the things that we are tracking, and if you want to > > > > participate click yes. If you want to see what we collected, click on > > > > the blue hat in the corner, if you want to stop collecting, either > > > > remove the RPM or right click on the blue hat and choose "Stop > > > > tracking." > > > > > > opt-out is the WRONG way of doing this. > > > > > > It makes fedora malware. > > > > > > > You didnt read correctly. I said "If you want to participate, click > > yes.". THat is Opt-in. > > > > If I didnt make it in bold letters for you, sorry. > > no need for the sarcasm > My apologies.. it was wrong, but I felt like I was being accused of making Fedora spyware. -- Stephen J Smoogen. -- CSIRT/Linux System Administrator How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice" From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Fri Oct 6 17:08:53 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 13:08:53 -0400 Subject: [fab] Re: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: <80d7e4090610061004y1d029c19p26b82f81389605b9@mail.gmail.com> References: <1160014650.16598.5.camel@cutter> <4524873C.2050602@bobjensen.com> <3237e4410610050538h3797e4d4t34d4c23e1133a5d1@mail.gmail.com> <45265B9E.80701@redhat.com> <1160142122.25526.27.camel@cutter> <80d7e4090610060928h35420d60vb26b2be7825b1a6c@mail.gmail.com> <1160152414.28924.18.camel@cutter> <80d7e4090610060952t3f4bf69dyb86c5a5ba8e1902@mail.gmail.com> <1160153920.28924.30.camel@cutter> <80d7e4090610061004y1d029c19p26b82f81389605b9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1160154533.28924.32.camel@cutter> On Fri, 2006-10-06 at 11:04 -0600, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > On 10/6/06, seth vidal wrote: > > On Fri, 2006-10-06 at 10:52 -0600, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > > > On 10/6/06, seth vidal wrote: > > > > > > > > Appropriate: On first login of a desktop, if the > > > > > fedora-help-us-help-you.rpm is installed, then a pop-up comes to the > > > > > user and says: we would like to get data from your usage of the > > > > > desktop. These are the things that we are tracking, and if you want to > > > > > participate click yes. If you want to see what we collected, click on > > > > > the blue hat in the corner, if you want to stop collecting, either > > > > > remove the RPM or right click on the blue hat and choose "Stop > > > > > tracking." > > > > > > > > opt-out is the WRONG way of doing this. > > > > > > > > It makes fedora malware. > > > > > > > > > > You didnt read correctly. I said "If you want to participate, click > > > yes.". THat is Opt-in. > > > > > > If I didnt make it in bold letters for you, sorry. > > > > no need for the sarcasm > > > > My apologies.. it was wrong, but I felt like I was being accused of > making Fedora spyware. > you weren't. -sv From blizzard at redhat.com Fri Oct 6 17:06:33 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 13:06:33 -0400 Subject: [fab] Metrics: What we *could* get In-Reply-To: <45268B8D.4000701@redhat.com> References: <3237e4410610060821v1b086c26h72735c4d231b44ee@mail.gmail.com> <452685C5.9020100@redhat.com> <1160152789.28924.22.camel@cutter> <45268B8D.4000701@redhat.com> Message-ID: <45268D19.5040204@redhat.com> There's another interesting aspect of having something on the machine that allows someone to be counted. It follows the software all the way from where we put it up, through the mirrors and down to the installation. It's much more reliable about reporting something in that sense, rather than collecting stats from mirrors and download sites. It also reports the act - "I'm using it" instead of "I downloaded it." And last, in some ways it's a lot less nefarious than tracking downloads. It's a result of a positive act on part of the user, as opposed to tracking on the backend without any kind of positive assent from the user. --Chris From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Fri Oct 6 17:11:51 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 13:11:51 -0400 Subject: [fab] Re: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: <45268AE4.1030809@redhat.com> References: <1160014650.16598.5.camel@cutter> <45247E60.5050901@redhat.com> <1160020908.16598.35.camel@cutter> <4524873C.2050602@bobjensen.com> <3237e4410610050538h3797e4d4t34d4c23e1133a5d1@mail.gmail.com> <45265B9E.80701@redhat.com> <1160142122.25526.27.camel@cutter> <80d7e4090610060928h35420d60vb26b2be7825b1a6c@mail.gmail.com> <4526876D.1040609@redhat.com> <1160153436.28924.26.camel@cutter> <45268AE4.1030809@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1160154712.28924.36.camel@cutter> On Fri, 2006-10-06 at 12:57 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > seth vidal wrote: > > On Fri, 2006-10-06 at 12:42 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > >> Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > >>> It is inappropriate if it is not known by the user. If it is a > >>> voluntary agreement between the user and the Fedora Group that the > >>> user knows what is tracked, how the data is anonymized, how the data > >>> is being used, and how it can be turned off then it is something that > >>> people can trust and not in my view of the world inappropriate. > >> Just curious. Do you feel that we ship without the big cookie warning > >> turned on by default in firefox as an example of something that's > >> inappropriate? > >> > > > > If we're using that being disabled to allow us to gather more tracking > > information then yes. We're CHOOSING to disable items that would let the > > user know we're tracking them. > > So that default applies to google, redhat.com and lots of other sites. > It's part of how the web works today. > > And once again, tracking implies some kind of nefarious end or big > brother type thing. Once again, I'm just interested in if you're using > it, not what you're doing with it or who you are. > I'm not accusing you or even red hat of being the big brothers. There are plenty of them in the world. And recording what folks in various developing nations is practically a pass-time for a good portion of our government. -sv From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Fri Oct 6 17:14:37 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 13:14:37 -0400 Subject: [fab] Metrics: What we *could* get In-Reply-To: <45268D19.5040204@redhat.com> References: <3237e4410610060821v1b086c26h72735c4d231b44ee@mail.gmail.com> <452685C5.9020100@redhat.com> <1160152789.28924.22.camel@cutter> <45268B8D.4000701@redhat.com> <45268D19.5040204@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1160154878.28924.38.camel@cutter> On Fri, 2006-10-06 at 13:06 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > There's another interesting aspect of having something on the machine > that allows someone to be counted. It follows the software all the way > from where we put it up, through the mirrors and down to the > installation. It's much more reliable about reporting something in that > sense, rather than collecting stats from mirrors and download sites. > > It also reports the act - "I'm using it" instead of "I downloaded it." > > And last, in some ways it's a lot less nefarious than tracking > downloads. It's a result of a positive act on part of the user, as > opposed to tracking on the backend without any kind of positive assent > from the user. > as long as it is not brought in as an automatic dependency, I agree. -sv From blizzard at redhat.com Fri Oct 6 17:13:58 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 13:13:58 -0400 Subject: [fab] Re: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: <1160154712.28924.36.camel@cutter> References: <1160014650.16598.5.camel@cutter> <45247E60.5050901@redhat.com> <1160020908.16598.35.camel@cutter> <4524873C.2050602@bobjensen.com> <3237e4410610050538h3797e4d4t34d4c23e1133a5d1@mail.gmail.com> <45265B9E.80701@redhat.com> <1160142122.25526.27.camel@cutter> <80d7e4090610060928h35420d60vb26b2be7825b1a6c@mail.gmail.com> <4526876D.1040609@redhat.com> <1160153436.28924.26.camel@cutter> <45268AE4.1030809@redhat.com> <1160154712.28924.36.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <45268ED6.2010902@redhat.com> seth vidal wrote: > I'm not accusing you or even red hat of being the big brothers. > > There are plenty of them in the world. And recording what folks in > various developing nations is practically a pass-time for a good portion > of our government. I guess I should be clear as well. When you first reacted to what we were proposing so violently it really surprised me. I really had to sit for a while and ask "is what I'm suggesting here pretty wrong?" And as a result, I think that I had to be more careful with my thinking and what we were actually trying to do with this. So accuse away - it's constructive in a strange sense. :) --Chris From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Fri Oct 6 17:21:42 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 13:21:42 -0400 Subject: [fab] Re: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: <45268ED6.2010902@redhat.com> References: <1160014650.16598.5.camel@cutter> <45247E60.5050901@redhat.com> <1160020908.16598.35.camel@cutter> <4524873C.2050602@bobjensen.com> <3237e4410610050538h3797e4d4t34d4c23e1133a5d1@mail.gmail.com> <45265B9E.80701@redhat.com> <1160142122.25526.27.camel@cutter> <80d7e4090610060928h35420d60vb26b2be7825b1a6c@mail.gmail.com> <4526876D.1040609@redhat.com> <1160153436.28924.26.camel@cutter> <45268AE4.1030809@redhat.com> <1160154712.28924.36.camel@cutter> <45268ED6.2010902@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1160155302.28924.41.camel@cutter> On Fri, 2006-10-06 at 13:13 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > seth vidal wrote: > > I'm not accusing you or even red hat of being the big brothers. > > > > There are plenty of them in the world. And recording what folks in > > various developing nations is practically a pass-time for a good portion > > of our government. > > I guess I should be clear as well. When you first reacted to what we > were proposing so violently it really surprised me. I really had to sit > for a while and ask "is what I'm suggesting here pretty wrong?" And as > a result, I think that I had to be more careful with my thinking and > what we were actually trying to do with this. > > So accuse away - it's constructive in a strange sense. :) > Do you remember when the patriot act passed and the details of what could happen started to be discussed? Remember the detail about the fbi being able to request the lists of what you checked out of a library or what books you bought from a bookstore. And the library/bookstore never being able to tell anyone if they had been contacted by the fbi? That's what I worry about. We're a library. -sv From blizzard at redhat.com Fri Oct 6 17:21:57 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 13:21:57 -0400 Subject: [fab] Metrics: What we *could* get In-Reply-To: <1160154878.28924.38.camel@cutter> References: <3237e4410610060821v1b086c26h72735c4d231b44ee@mail.gmail.com> <452685C5.9020100@redhat.com> <1160152789.28924.22.camel@cutter> <45268B8D.4000701@redhat.com> <45268D19.5040204@redhat.com> <1160154878.28924.38.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <452690B5.60408@redhat.com> seth vidal wrote: > On Fri, 2006-10-06 at 13:06 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: >> There's another interesting aspect of having something on the machine >> that allows someone to be counted. It follows the software all the way >> from where we put it up, through the mirrors and down to the >> installation. It's much more reliable about reporting something in that >> sense, rather than collecting stats from mirrors and download sites. >> >> It also reports the act - "I'm using it" instead of "I downloaded it." >> >> And last, in some ways it's a lot less nefarious than tracking >> downloads. It's a result of a positive act on part of the user, as >> opposed to tracking on the backend without any kind of positive assent >> from the user. >> > > as long as it is not brought in as an automatic dependency, I agree. > Might be as simple as the home page for the browser. Or part of firstboot. --Chris From blizzard at redhat.com Fri Oct 6 17:28:12 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 13:28:12 -0400 Subject: [fab] Re: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: <1160155302.28924.41.camel@cutter> References: <1160014650.16598.5.camel@cutter> <45247E60.5050901@redhat.com> <1160020908.16598.35.camel@cutter> <4524873C.2050602@bobjensen.com> <3237e4410610050538h3797e4d4t34d4c23e1133a5d1@mail.gmail.com> <45265B9E.80701@redhat.com> <1160142122.25526.27.camel@cutter> <80d7e4090610060928h35420d60vb26b2be7825b1a6c@mail.gmail.com> <4526876D.1040609@redhat.com> <1160153436.28924.26.camel@cutter> <45268AE4.1030809@redhat.com> <1160154712.28924.36.camel@cutter> <45268ED6.2010902@redhat.com> <1160155302.28924.41.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <4526922C.1020204@redhat.com> seth vidal wrote: > On Fri, 2006-10-06 at 13:13 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: >> seth vidal wrote: >>> I'm not accusing you or even red hat of being the big brothers. >>> >>> There are plenty of them in the world. And recording what folks in >>> various developing nations is practically a pass-time for a good portion >>> of our government. >> I guess I should be clear as well. When you first reacted to what we >> were proposing so violently it really surprised me. I really had to sit >> for a while and ask "is what I'm suggesting here pretty wrong?" And as >> a result, I think that I had to be more careful with my thinking and >> what we were actually trying to do with this. >> >> So accuse away - it's constructive in a strange sense. :) >> > > Do you remember when the patriot act passed and the details of what > could happen started to be discussed? Remember the detail about the fbi > being able to request the lists of what you checked out of a library or > what books you bought from a bookstore. And the library/bookstore never > being able to tell anyone if they had been contacted by the fbi? That's > what I worry about. > > We're a library. But we're not a library that's required to keep resources that connect a specific person to a specific act. Libraries have to because they are lending a non-free good. We're only able to say that some person, somewhere performed that act, and we don't know the context or what they are doing with it. As long as we are very careful about the data that we collect - and I think that's part of the promise that we need to make. --Chris From jkeating at redhat.com Fri Oct 6 17:35:08 2006 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 13:35:08 -0400 Subject: [fab] Re: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: <4526922C.1020204@redhat.com> References: <1160014650.16598.5.camel@cutter> <1160155302.28924.41.camel@cutter> <4526922C.1020204@redhat.com> Message-ID: <200610061335.08206.jkeating@redhat.com> On Friday 06 October 2006 13:28, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > But we're not a library that's required to keep resources that connect a > specific person to a specific act. ?Libraries have to because they are > lending a non-free good. However the collection method (uniq IPs or a cookie) seem to ways of identifying who the 'user' was. -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gdk at redhat.com Fri Oct 6 18:14:35 2006 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 14:14:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Metrics: What we *could* get In-Reply-To: <45268D19.5040204@redhat.com> References: <3237e4410610060821v1b086c26h72735c4d231b44ee@mail.gmail.com> <452685C5.9020100@redhat.com> <1160152789.28924.22.camel@cutter> <45268B8D.4000701@redhat.com> <45268D19.5040204@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Oct 2006, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > There's another interesting aspect of having something on the machine > that allows someone to be counted. It follows the software all the way > from where we put it up, through the mirrors and down to the > installation. It's much more reliable about reporting something in that > sense, rather than collecting stats from mirrors and download sites. > > It also reports the act - "I'm using it" instead of "I downloaded it." > > And last, in some ways it's a lot less nefarious than tracking > downloads. It's a result of a positive act on part of the user, as > opposed to tracking on the backend without any kind of positive assent > from the user. > > --Chris Yep. If we're going to bother doing actual engineering work for a measurement solution in FC7, then it should be: a. Voluntary; b. Anonymous; c. Incredibly comprehensive; d. Clearly beneficial to users. And when I say "incredibly comprehensive," I mean that it should collect hardware information and package information, and we should focus on deriving *useful* data from these metrics. Like: * What hardware works well, and what doesn't? * What software packages are widely installed? * What's the reliability of a package, based on a ratio of "open bugs" to "instances installed"? We've had these ideas before. RHN collected *most* of this data back in the RHL days, but no one ever made it a priority to mine this data, so it just sat there, useless. Pootypedia, which was intended to do the hardware cataloging, was sponsored by SoC in the summer of '05, and never went anywhere. (http://sourceforge.net/projects/pootypedia/) Again, these ideas are not rocket science. It's basic client-server stuff, a little bit of XMLRPC, a little bit of Python, a well-maintained database server. We just need to decide that these projects are important, and then we need to set up a team that's responsible for executing them. If we were to have a hackfest, this would be, for me, one of the most interesting projects. --g ------------------------------------------------------------- Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Project || fedoraproject.org Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors ------------------------------------------------------------- From blizzard at redhat.com Fri Oct 6 18:17:19 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 14:17:19 -0400 Subject: [fab] Re: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: <200610061335.08206.jkeating@redhat.com> References: <1160014650.16598.5.camel@cutter> <1160155302.28924.41.camel@cutter> <4526922C.1020204@redhat.com> <200610061335.08206.jkeating@redhat.com> Message-ID: <45269DAF.3020707@redhat.com> Jesse Keating wrote: > On Friday 06 October 2006 13:28, Christopher Blizzard wrote: >> But we're not a library that's required to keep resources that connect a >> specific person to a specific act. Libraries have to because they are >> lending a non-free good. > > However the collection method (uniq IPs or a cookie) seem to ways of > identifying who the 'user' was. Only if you correlate it with other data sources - something we can prevent by explicitly _not_ collecting certain data. --Chris From jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org Fri Oct 6 18:41:20 2006 From: jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org (Josh Boyer) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 13:41:20 -0500 Subject: [fab] Metrics: What we *could* get In-Reply-To: References: <3237e4410610060821v1b086c26h72735c4d231b44ee@mail.gmail.com> <452685C5.9020100@redhat.com> <1160152789.28924.22.camel@cutter> <45268B8D.4000701@redhat.com> <45268D19.5040204@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1160160080.5189.10.camel@zod.rchland.ibm.com> On Fri, 2006-10-06 at 14:14 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > On Fri, 6 Oct 2006, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > > > There's another interesting aspect of having something on the machine > > that allows someone to be counted. It follows the software all the way > > from where we put it up, through the mirrors and down to the > > installation. It's much more reliable about reporting something in that > > sense, rather than collecting stats from mirrors and download sites. > > > > It also reports the act - "I'm using it" instead of "I downloaded it." > > > > And last, in some ways it's a lot less nefarious than tracking > > downloads. It's a result of a positive act on part of the user, as > > opposed to tracking on the backend without any kind of positive assent > > from the user. > > > > --Chris > > Yep. > > If we're going to bother doing actual engineering work for a measurement > solution in FC7, then it should be: > > a. Voluntary; > b. Anonymous; > c. Incredibly comprehensive; > d. Clearly beneficial to users. > > And when I say "incredibly comprehensive," I mean that it should collect > hardware information and package information, and we should focus on > deriving *useful* data from these metrics. Like: > > * What hardware works well, and what doesn't? > * What software packages are widely installed? > * What's the reliability of a package, based on a ratio of > "open bugs" to "instances installed"? > http://klive.cpushare.com Package it for Extras. It'll even tell you what version of the kernel folks are running. Modify it a bit if you want it to gather more statistics and have it report to your own server. josh From stickster at gmail.com Fri Oct 6 19:41:50 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 15:41:50 -0400 Subject: [fab] Re: Firefox splash page tracker In-Reply-To: <80d7e4090610060928h35420d60vb26b2be7825b1a6c@mail.gmail.com> References: <1160014650.16598.5.camel@cutter> <45247E60.5050901@redhat.com> <1160020908.16598.35.camel@cutter> <4524873C.2050602@bobjensen.com> <3237e4410610050538h3797e4d4t34d4c23e1133a5d1@mail.gmail.com> <45265B9E.80701@redhat.com> <1160142122.25526.27.camel@cutter> <80d7e4090610060928h35420d60vb26b2be7825b1a6c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1160163710.3024.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2006-10-06 at 10:28 -0600, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > Appropriate: On first login of a desktop, if the > fedora-help-us-help-you.rpm is installed, then a pop-up comes to the > user and says: we would like to get data from your usage of the > desktop. These are the things that we are tracking, and if you want to > participate click yes. If you want to see what we collected, click on > the blue hat in the corner, if you want to stop collecting, either > remove the RPM or right click on the blue hat and choose "Stop > tracking." Q.v. the CBI (Cooperative Bug Isolation) project and associated sampler applet. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sat Oct 7 02:12:16 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2006 07:42:16 +0530 Subject: [fab] Metrics: What we *could* get In-Reply-To: References: <3237e4410610060821v1b086c26h72735c4d231b44ee@mail.gmail.com> <452685C5.9020100@redhat.com> <1160152789.28924.22.camel@cutter> <45268B8D.4000701@redhat.com> <45268D19.5040204@redhat.com> Message-ID: <45270D00.9020202@fedoraproject.org> Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > Yep. > > If we're going to bother doing actual engineering work for a measurement > solution in FC7, then it should be: > > a. Voluntary; > b. Anonymous; > c. Incredibly comprehensive; > d. Clearly beneficial to users. > > And when I say "incredibly comprehensive," I mean that it should collect > hardware information and package information, and we should focus on > deriving *useful* data from these metrics. Like: > > * What hardware works well, and what doesn't? See https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=204518 for my RFE on this. > * What software packages are widely installed? http://alioth.debian.org/projects/popcon/ > * What's the reliability of a package, based on a ratio of > "open bugs" to "instances installed"? Fix Bug Buddy to work with Red Hat bugzilla. Install it by default and recommend it heavily instead of the web interface for reporting bugs. That should be a big boost in feedback. > We've had these ideas before. RHN collected *most* of this data back in > the RHL days, but no one ever made it a priority to mine this data, so it > just sat there, useless. Pootypedia, which was intended to do the > hardware cataloging, was sponsored by SoC in the summer of '05, and never > went anywhere. (http://sourceforge.net/projects/pootypedia/) Destined to be dead. We should have used HAL instead of Kudzu. Our Google SoC efforts so far with Fedora has nowhere been as useful as it could be. We should focus on smaller well defined projects and specific RFE's instead of picking projects that require ongoing development. > > Again, these ideas are not rocket science. It's basic client-server > stuff, a little bit of XMLRPC, a little bit of Python, a well-maintained > database server. We just need to decide that these projects are > important, and then we need to set up a team that's responsible for > executing them. > > If we were to have a hackfest, this would be, for me, one of the most > interesting projects. Agreed. Rahul From nman64 at n-man.com Sat Oct 7 15:13:00 2006 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick W. Barnes) Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2006 10:13:00 -0500 Subject: [fab] finalizing the privacy policy In-Reply-To: <1160001965.4193.294.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1160001965.4193.294.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <200610071013.04076.nman64@n-man.com> On Wednesday 04 October 2006 17:46, Karsten Wade wrote: > We are going to want to link to the Fedora privacy policy from > the /usr/share/doc/HTML/index.html splash page as part of the info about > the tracker used. > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal/PrivacyPolicy > > I seem to recall Mark Webbink having looked this over, but I'm not sure. > Either way, it is marked DRAFT and needs to be finalized in the next > seven days. > > Is this something that should be/have been linked from the EULA? > I don't think Mark ever did look at this document; at least, if he did, I was never told. If nobody has any recommendations for significant changes, then Mark's review would be the only roadblock to removing the draft mark. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com http://www.n-man.com/ LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/nman64 Have I been helpful? Rate my assistance! http://rate.affero.net/nman64/ -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nman64 at n-man.com Sat Oct 7 16:12:32 2006 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick W. Barnes) Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2006 11:12:32 -0500 Subject: [fab] Metrics Message-ID: <200610071112.35705.nman64@n-man.com> Unfortunately, I've only just now had the time to review the threads about metrics that have been floating on this list and fedora-docs-list. I'll now take this opportunity to weigh in on what has been covered so far and add my own thoughts on the matter. == Tracking in Start Page == First, I'd like to point out that this isn't entirely limited to Firefox, as the page we currently use is displayed in some of the other base browsers, too. === Using a Tiny Image === I hate this idea. If we have nothing to hide, don't hide it. We have to remain accountable, no matter what the cost. If we're so worried about letting users know what we're doing, then we shouldn't be doing it. === Using an Optional Link === Perhaps my favorite way to handle this is to present an obvious, well-highlighted link near the top of the page that gives users an opportunity to opt-in by clicking it to get to a survey. Advantages: * Transparency: The user will know what is going on and will be able to decline before anything happens. * Full Survey/More Information: Since this link can take the user to a survey, we can collect more information than a small image could ever give us. * Accuracy: Using this method, we wouldn't have to worry about duplicates and other issues that plague tracking by IP. We could also combine this with other techniques in an attempt to determine what percentage of users are following the link. This could also be implemented with a JavaScript dialog, but we'd have to make sure that the dialog only appears once. == Tracking in firstboot == Ultimately, this is the solution I'd like to see. Presenting a short, opt-in survey during firstboot is probably the best way to handle these types of metrics. == Tracking from yum == We should be collecting traffic data from all of our web-based resources, including the package repositories and websites. This can be used to complement the more comprehensive data collection of a survey. == What We're Already Missing == While we do have logs from the assorted websites, and probably from other resources, we're not using that information. We should be collecting information from those logs for assorted metrics. They may not be extremely accurate ways of determining numbers of users, but it could give us valuable insight into what our users are doing and where we'd do well to allocate more resources. In my opinion, that information would be more valuable than any information about total numbers of users. == Privacy == Whatever we do, we need to pay careful attention to our techniques and policies. We already have a draft privacy policy that only needs review by Legal in order to be made official. Anyone taking part in this discussion should read over it. It lays the basic groundwork for us to follow. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal/PrivacyPolicy One slip with regard to user privacy could do irreparable damage to the Project. Think before you act. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com http://www.n-man.com/ LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/nman64 Have I been helpful? Rate my assistance! http://rate.affero.net/nman64/ -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mmcgrath at fedoraproject.org Sat Oct 7 16:51:33 2006 From: mmcgrath at fedoraproject.org (Mike McGrath) Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2006 11:51:33 -0500 Subject: [fab] Metrics In-Reply-To: <200610071112.35705.nman64@n-man.com> References: <200610071112.35705.nman64@n-man.com> Message-ID: <3237e4410610070951w6f81362tf5a8c80d0c429fb4@mail.gmail.com> On 10/7/06, Patrick W. Barnes wrote: > == What We're Already Missing == > > While we do have logs from the assorted websites, and probably from other > resources, we're not using that information. We should be collecting > information from those logs for assorted metrics. They may not be extremely > accurate ways of determining numbers of users, but it could give us valuable > insight into what our users are doing and where we'd do well to allocate more > resources. In my opinion, that information would be more valuable than any > information about total numbers of users. I actually do have awstats monitoring the wiki and a few other sites (like mirrors.fp.o). I don't have the cgi published because it seems a vulnerability for awstats comes out every couple of hours :( Seth clued me into using the static pages method. I've just been to lazy to actually sit down and do it, expect it soon though (next couple of days). -Mike From mmcgrath at fedoraproject.org Sat Oct 7 23:31:34 2006 From: mmcgrath at fedoraproject.org (Mike McGrath) Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2006 18:31:34 -0500 Subject: [fab] Metrics: What we *could* get In-Reply-To: <45270D00.9020202@fedoraproject.org> References: <3237e4410610060821v1b086c26h72735c4d231b44ee@mail.gmail.com> <452685C5.9020100@redhat.com> <1160152789.28924.22.camel@cutter> <45268B8D.4000701@redhat.com> <45268D19.5040204@redhat.com> <45270D00.9020202@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <3237e4410610071631u5d1b763bx39234d2a0b16d8f@mail.gmail.com> FYI: The awstats pages are now up: http://fedoraproject.org/awstats/ One second thought about yum, if we assume that machines are contacting mirrors.fedoraproject.org once per day and a single IP is averaging 100 connections per day (over the span of a month) I think its reasonable to assume that that ip has about 100 hosts behind it. Might work for our estimates. -Mike From mmcgrath at fedoraproject.org Sat Oct 7 23:35:24 2006 From: mmcgrath at fedoraproject.org (Mike McGrath) Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2006 18:35:24 -0500 Subject: [fab] Metrics: What we *could* get In-Reply-To: <3237e4410610071631u5d1b763bx39234d2a0b16d8f@mail.gmail.com> References: <3237e4410610060821v1b086c26h72735c4d231b44ee@mail.gmail.com> <452685C5.9020100@redhat.com> <1160152789.28924.22.camel@cutter> <45268B8D.4000701@redhat.com> <45268D19.5040204@redhat.com> <45270D00.9020202@fedoraproject.org> <3237e4410610071631u5d1b763bx39234d2a0b16d8f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3237e4410610071635w79fc729dhd30b70dfc30cc11d@mail.gmail.com> On 10/7/06, Mike McGrath wrote: > FYI: The awstats pages are now up: > > http://fedoraproject.org/awstats/ > BTW, I only recently enabled reverse DNS lookups so the country information will be flawed for this month and previous months. -Mike From kwade at redhat.com Mon Oct 9 20:09:14 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2006 13:09:14 -0700 Subject: [fab] GSoC Mentor Summit on 14 Oct. Message-ID: <1160424554.27180.91.camel@erato.phig.org> This Saturday I'm attending the Google Summer of Code Mentor Summit in Mountain View: http://www.red-bean.com/ospowiki/MentorSummit-2006 We had a particularly good experience with the project that I mentored[1]. Reading the other attendees' ideas for the summit sessions, I gather that my situation may not have been the norm. If you have *anything* you'd like me to bring to this summit, something in representing Fedora or FLOSS in general ... or if you have *anything* you want me to bring back from the sessions ... just let me know. No promises, natch, but I'll do my best. Don't expect T-shirts for all. The talk/discussion I proposed is around open content and the idea of a Summer of Content: http://www.red-bean.com/ospowiki/Mentor-Summit-2006-Schedule#head-de37aee247e788a39250ec5491fec9680689615a ... or just scroll down the ToC for my name, in case Moin Moin changes the URL on us. Go ahead and reply here (if no one minds) to spur discussion. Or let me go my way, I can always make up enough stuff to fill my part of ten hours. :) - Karsten [1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MoinDocBookProject -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sopwith at gmail.com Tue Oct 10 13:31:03 2006 From: sopwith at gmail.com (Elliot Lee) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 09:31:03 -0400 Subject: [fab] Metrics: What we *could* get In-Reply-To: <3237e4410610071635w79fc729dhd30b70dfc30cc11d@mail.gmail.com> References: <3237e4410610060821v1b086c26h72735c4d231b44ee@mail.gmail.com> <452685C5.9020100@redhat.com> <1160152789.28924.22.camel@cutter> <45268B8D.4000701@redhat.com> <45268D19.5040204@redhat.com> <45270D00.9020202@fedoraproject.org> <3237e4410610071631u5d1b763bx39234d2a0b16d8f@mail.gmail.com> <3237e4410610071635w79fc729dhd30b70dfc30cc11d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7F8769D0-BCEE-452D-AEDF-46DF10D8BDA1@gmail.com> On Oct 7, 2006, at 7:35 PM, Mike McGrath wrote: > On 10/7/06, Mike McGrath wrote: >> FYI: The awstats pages are now up: >> >> http://fedoraproject.org/awstats/ >> > BTW, I only recently enabled reverse DNS lookups so the country > information will be flawed for this month and previous months. (Cool stuff Mike :) My current question is why Kazakhstan (specifically, mail4.kio.kz) is taking up so much bandwidth... Best, -- Elliot From mmcgrath at fedoraproject.org Tue Oct 10 14:05:53 2006 From: mmcgrath at fedoraproject.org (Mike McGrath) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 09:05:53 -0500 Subject: [fab] Metrics: What we *could* get In-Reply-To: <7F8769D0-BCEE-452D-AEDF-46DF10D8BDA1@gmail.com> References: <3237e4410610060821v1b086c26h72735c4d231b44ee@mail.gmail.com> <452685C5.9020100@redhat.com> <1160152789.28924.22.camel@cutter> <45268B8D.4000701@redhat.com> <45268D19.5040204@redhat.com> <45270D00.9020202@fedoraproject.org> <3237e4410610071631u5d1b763bx39234d2a0b16d8f@mail.gmail.com> <3237e4410610071635w79fc729dhd30b70dfc30cc11d@mail.gmail.com> <7F8769D0-BCEE-452D-AEDF-46DF10D8BDA1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3237e4410610100705h43c88bfbve05b8a2e6361610b@mail.gmail.com> Looks like they're very inteterested in extras. http://fedoraproject.org/extras/5/i386/ 16000 gets so far this month. -Mike On 10/10/06, Elliot Lee wrote: > > On Oct 7, 2006, at 7:35 PM, Mike McGrath wrote: > > > On 10/7/06, Mike McGrath wrote: > >> FYI: The awstats pages are now up: > >> > >> http://fedoraproject.org/awstats/ > >> > > BTW, I only recently enabled reverse DNS lookups so the country > > information will be flawed for this month and previous months. > > (Cool stuff Mike :) > > My current question is why Kazakhstan (specifically, mail4.kio.kz) is > taking up so much bandwidth... > > Best, > -- Elliot > > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board > From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Tue Oct 10 14:11:24 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 10:11:24 -0400 Subject: [fab] Metrics: What we *could* get In-Reply-To: <3237e4410610100705h43c88bfbve05b8a2e6361610b@mail.gmail.com> References: <3237e4410610060821v1b086c26h72735c4d231b44ee@mail.gmail.com> <452685C5.9020100@redhat.com> <1160152789.28924.22.camel@cutter> <45268B8D.4000701@redhat.com> <45268D19.5040204@redhat.com> <45270D00.9020202@fedoraproject.org> <3237e4410610071631u5d1b763bx39234d2a0b16d8f@mail.gmail.com> <3237e4410610071635w79fc729dhd30b70dfc30cc11d@mail.gmail.com> <7F8769D0-BCEE-452D-AEDF-46DF10D8BDA1@gmail.com> <3237e4410610100705h43c88bfbve05b8a2e6361610b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1160489485.3912.2.camel@cutter> On Tue, 2006-10-10 at 09:05 -0500, Mike McGrath wrote: > Looks like they're very inteterested in extras. > > http://fedoraproject.org/extras/5/i386/ > > 16000 gets so far this month. > or that someone bought a .kz domain. -sv From tibbs at math.uh.edu Tue Oct 10 14:30:59 2006 From: tibbs at math.uh.edu (Jason L Tibbitts III) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 09:30:59 -0500 Subject: [fab] Metrics: What we *could* get In-Reply-To: <1160489485.3912.2.camel@cutter> (seth vidal's message of "Tue, 10 Oct 2006 10:11:24 -0400") References: <3237e4410610060821v1b086c26h72735c4d231b44ee@mail.gmail.com> <452685C5.9020100@redhat.com> <1160152789.28924.22.camel@cutter> <45268B8D.4000701@redhat.com> <45268D19.5040204@redhat.com> <45270D00.9020202@fedoraproject.org> <3237e4410610071631u5d1b763bx39234d2a0b16d8f@mail.gmail.com> <3237e4410610071635w79fc729dhd30b70dfc30cc11d@mail.gmail.com> <7F8769D0-BCEE-452D-AEDF-46DF10D8BDA1@gmail.com> <3237e4410610100705h43c88bfbve05b8a2e6361610b@mail.gmail.com> <1160489485.3912.2.camel@cutter> Message-ID: >>>>> "sv" == seth vidal writes: sv> or that someone bought a .kz domain. That host resolves to two IP addresses; both are allocated out of RIPE space to companies in Kazakhstan; a trace to one goes via a terrestrial route via Moscow and the other traces through IntelSat. So it's really in KZ. - J< From mmcgrath at fedoraproject.org Sat Oct 14 02:25:00 2006 From: mmcgrath at fedoraproject.org (Mike McGrath) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 21:25:00 -0500 Subject: [fab] Metrics: What we *could* get In-Reply-To: References: <3237e4410610060821v1b086c26h72735c4d231b44ee@mail.gmail.com> <45268D19.5040204@redhat.com> <45270D00.9020202@fedoraproject.org> <3237e4410610071631u5d1b763bx39234d2a0b16d8f@mail.gmail.com> <3237e4410610071635w79fc729dhd30b70dfc30cc11d@mail.gmail.com> <7F8769D0-BCEE-452D-AEDF-46DF10D8BDA1@gmail.com> <3237e4410610100705h43c88bfbve05b8a2e6361610b@mail.gmail.com> <1160489485.3912.2.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <3237e4410610131925w73059761wefc55db88fc9c5d9@mail.gmail.com> On 10/10/06, Jason L Tibbitts III wrote: > >>>>> "sv" == seth vidal writes: > > sv> or that someone bought a .kz domain. > > That host resolves to two IP addresses; both are allocated out of RIPE > space to companies in Kazakhstan; a trace to one goes via a > terrestrial route via Moscow and the other traces through IntelSat. > > So it's really in KZ. > > - J< > So now the question is how to count something like our current mirrors leader at present the top 'ip' has over 16,000 hits. 12 days in that's over 1,300 hits per day. If we assume that the machines 'phone home' 1 time per day, that's 1300 machines that might get counted as one. Perhaps our best bet is to count these groups as 1 install on the low end, and 1300 on the high end. I'm working on getting some usable scripts together for the raw numbers and I'd like more input for the logic. Thoughts? Would this discussion be more appropriate on fedora-devel? -Mike From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Sat Oct 14 02:41:38 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 22:41:38 -0400 Subject: [fab] Metrics: What we *could* get In-Reply-To: <3237e4410610131925w73059761wefc55db88fc9c5d9@mail.gmail.com> References: <3237e4410610060821v1b086c26h72735c4d231b44ee@mail.gmail.com> <45268D19.5040204@redhat.com> <45270D00.9020202@fedoraproject.org> <3237e4410610071631u5d1b763bx39234d2a0b16d8f@mail.gmail.com> <3237e4410610071635w79fc729dhd30b70dfc30cc11d@mail.gmail.com> <7F8769D0-BCEE-452D-AEDF-46DF10D8BDA1@gmail.com> <3237e4410610100705h43c88bfbve05b8a2e6361610b@mail.gmail.com> <1160489485.3912.2.camel@cutter> <3237e4410610131925w73059761wefc55db88fc9c5d9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1160793698.28422.18.camel@cutter> On Fri, 2006-10-13 at 21:25 -0500, Mike McGrath wrote: > On 10/10/06, Jason L Tibbitts III wrote: > > >>>>> "sv" == seth vidal writes: > > > > sv> or that someone bought a .kz domain. > > > > That host resolves to two IP addresses; both are allocated out of RIPE > > space to companies in Kazakhstan; a trace to one goes via a > > terrestrial route via Moscow and the other traces through IntelSat. > > > > So it's really in KZ. > > > > - J< > > > > So now the question is how to count something like our current mirrors > leader at present the top 'ip' has over 16,000 hits. 12 days in > that's over 1,300 hits per day. If we assume that the machines 'phone > home' 1 time per day, that's 1300 machines that might get counted as > one. > > Perhaps our best bet is to count these groups as 1 install on the low > end, and 1300 on the high end. I'm working on getting some usable > scripts together for the raw numbers and I'd like more input for the > logic. > > Thoughts? Would this discussion be more appropriate on fedora-devel? the machines using the yum-updatesd phone home about 24 times a day. I believe it is set to once an hour by default. -sv From wtogami at redhat.com Mon Oct 16 00:20:46 2006 From: wtogami at redhat.com (Warren Togami) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 09:20:46 +0900 Subject: [fab] Metrics for Magazine Article Message-ID: <4532D05E.8050104@redhat.com> A leading Japanese tech industry magazine wants to know numbers like... * How many src packages in Core * How many src packages in Extras * How many Extras contributors * How many contributors in other Fedora Project groups Could someone figure out rough approximations of these numbers? I am currently traveling through Asia and my online access is limited. Warren Togami wtogami at redhat.com From mmcgrath at fedoraproject.org Mon Oct 16 00:34:49 2006 From: mmcgrath at fedoraproject.org (Mike McGrath) Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 19:34:49 -0500 Subject: [fab] Metrics for Magazine Article In-Reply-To: <4532D05E.8050104@redhat.com> References: <4532D05E.8050104@redhat.com> Message-ID: <3237e4410610151734g37f67126v3b5c71b43f3d78cc@mail.gmail.com> On 10/15/06, Warren Togami wrote: > A leading Japanese tech industry magazine wants to know numbers like... > > * How many src packages in Core > * How many src packages in Extras > * How many Extras contributors > * How many contributors in other Fedora Project groups > > Could someone figure out rough approximations of these numbers? I am > currently traveling through Asia and my online access is limited. > > Warren Togami > wtogami at redhat.com > 227 extras contributors (awk -F\| '{print $4}' owners.list | sort | uniq | wc -l) 1159 srpms in core as of FC6T3 2208 srpms in extras development 816 users in the Fedora Accounts system 724 users have signed the CLA I'll try to think of a better way to define 'contributor'. -Mike From mmcgrath at fedoraproject.org Fri Oct 20 14:02:22 2006 From: mmcgrath at fedoraproject.org (Mike McGrath) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 09:02:22 -0500 Subject: [fab] Fedora Project and Hosting Message-ID: <3237e4410610200702j4bac2964jdaf78fa73c87b5f3@mail.gmail.com> So people have been asking more and more for general VCS space, sometimes SVN, GIT, CVS. My question for the board: Is the Fedora Project a place to host this stuff or should we just point them to freshmeat and sourceforge? Here's an example thats comes up: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/tickets/index.pl?Action=AgentTicketZoom&TicketID=102 and another https://admin.fedoraproject.org/tickets/customer.pl?Action=CustomerTicketZoom&TicketID=94 At present there is no formal policy (that I am aware of). -Mike From jkeating at redhat.com Fri Oct 20 14:12:48 2006 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 10:12:48 -0400 Subject: [fab] Fedora Project and Hosting In-Reply-To: <3237e4410610200702j4bac2964jdaf78fa73c87b5f3@mail.gmail.com> References: <3237e4410610200702j4bac2964jdaf78fa73c87b5f3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200610201012.58445.jkeating@redhat.com> On Friday 20 October 2006 10:02, Mike McGrath wrote: > So people have been asking more and more for general VCS space, > sometimes SVN, GIT, CVS. ?My question for the board: ?Is the Fedora > Project a place to host this stuff or should we just point them to > freshmeat and sourceforge? ?Here's an example thats comes up: > > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/tickets/index.pl?Action=AgentTicketZoom&Tic >ketID=102 > > and another > > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/tickets/customer.pl?Action=CustomerTicketZo >om&TicketID=94 > > At present there is no formal policy (that I am aware of). So some will say use 108, but others will say that 108 doesn't support the SCM of their choice. There are some projects, things that are written specifically for Fedora and Fedora based distributions (like RHEL) that may want to develop out in the public space, with the SCM of their choice. Sending those people to sourceforge is not a very good solution, as I wouldn't wish sourceforge on anybody's project. I suppose if we want the Fedora project to foster software development, and become that 'open source lab' that I keep hearing about, we probably should try to provide some infrastructure for these projects. However it is a pretty big undertaking to try and provide something complete, repo, mailing list, webspace, bug tracking system, etc.. in such a way that we can easily add and segregate projects. Tough question :/ -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Fri Oct 20 14:20:45 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 10:20:45 -0400 Subject: [fab] Fedora Project and Hosting In-Reply-To: <200610201012.58445.jkeating@redhat.com> References: <3237e4410610200702j4bac2964jdaf78fa73c87b5f3@mail.gmail.com> <200610201012.58445.jkeating@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1161354045.14633.9.camel@cutter> On Fri, 2006-10-20 at 10:12 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Friday 20 October 2006 10:02, Mike McGrath wrote: > > So people have been asking more and more for general VCS space, > > sometimes SVN, GIT, CVS. My question for the board: Is the Fedora > > Project a place to host this stuff or should we just point them to > > freshmeat and sourceforge? Here's an example thats comes up: > > > > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/tickets/index.pl?Action=AgentTicketZoom&Tic > >ketID=102 > > > > and another > > > > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/tickets/customer.pl?Action=CustomerTicketZo > >om&TicketID=94 > > > > At present there is no formal policy (that I am aware of). > > So some will say use 108, but others will say that 108 doesn't support the SCM > of their choice. There are some projects, things that are written > specifically for Fedora and Fedora based distributions (like RHEL) that may > want to develop out in the public space, with the SCM of their choice. > Sending those people to sourceforge is not a very good solution, as I > wouldn't wish sourceforge on anybody's project. I suppose if we want the > Fedora project to foster software development, and become that 'open source > lab' that I keep hearing about, we probably should try to provide some > infrastructure for these projects. However it is a pretty big undertaking to > try and provide something complete, repo, mailing list, webspace, bug > tracking system, etc.. in such a way that we can easily add and segregate > projects. > I won't say use 108 b/c: 1. 108 is not open source 2. 108 is not a fedora project at all 3. 108 requires YET ANOTHER ACCOUNT. just my thoughts. -sv From blizzard at redhat.com Fri Oct 20 14:23:25 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 10:23:25 -0400 Subject: [fab] Fedora Project and Hosting In-Reply-To: <200610201012.58445.jkeating@redhat.com> References: <3237e4410610200702j4bac2964jdaf78fa73c87b5f3@mail.gmail.com> <200610201012.58445.jkeating@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4538DBDD.4060604@redhat.com> Jesse Keating wrote: > On Friday 20 October 2006 10:02, Mike McGrath wrote: >> So people have been asking more and more for general VCS space, >> sometimes SVN, GIT, CVS. My question for the board: Is the Fedora >> Project a place to host this stuff or should we just point them to >> freshmeat and sourceforge? Here's an example thats comes up: >> >> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/tickets/index.pl?Action=AgentTicketZoom&Tic >> ketID=102 >> >> and another >> >> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/tickets/customer.pl?Action=CustomerTicketZo >> om&TicketID=94 >> >> At present there is no formal policy (that I am aware of). > > So some will say use 108, but others will say that 108 doesn't support the SCM > of their choice. There are some projects, things that are written > specifically for Fedora and Fedora based distributions (like RHEL) that may > want to develop out in the public space, with the SCM of their choice. > Sending those people to sourceforge is not a very good solution, as I > wouldn't wish sourceforge on anybody's project. I suppose if we want the > Fedora project to foster software development, and become that 'open source > lab' that I keep hearing about, we probably should try to provide some > infrastructure for these projects. However it is a pretty big undertaking to > try and provide something complete, repo, mailing list, webspace, bug > tracking system, etc.. in such a way that we can easily add and segregate > projects. > > Tough question :/ > > > I don't think it's as tough as that. For example, we should really have a git repo that fedora developers (including red hat folks!) can use. If nothing else, being able to interact with the kernel, x.org and a host of other projects is enough reason alone to just host that one thing. And I think that we don't have to worry about the whole big picture here. We're not trying to compete with sourceforge, nor should we try. But we should be facilitating individuals to get shit done. And a variety of SCMs do just that. If someone comes along and says "hey, I want to make LiveCDs actually happen! And here's code to do it!" we shouldn't say "why aren't you using hg!?" Because then they go away and it is sad face making. To me that's the little stuff and we shouldn't be using it to keep people away. I think we've done too much of that crap in the past. --Chris From nman64 at n-man.com Fri Oct 20 14:25:50 2006 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick W. Barnes) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 09:25:50 -0500 Subject: [fab] Fedora Project and Hosting In-Reply-To: <200610201012.58445.jkeating@redhat.com> References: <3237e4410610200702j4bac2964jdaf78fa73c87b5f3@mail.gmail.com> <200610201012.58445.jkeating@redhat.com> Message-ID: <200610200925.54292.nman64@n-man.com> On Friday 20 October 2006 09:12, Jesse Keating wrote: > > So some will say use 108, but others will say that 108 doesn't support the > SCM of their choice. There are some projects, things that are written > specifically for Fedora and Fedora based distributions (like RHEL) that may > want to develop out in the public space, with the SCM of their choice. > Sending those people to sourceforge is not a very good solution, as I > wouldn't wish sourceforge on anybody's project. I suppose if we want the > Fedora project to foster software development, and become that 'open source > lab' that I keep hearing about, we probably should try to provide some > infrastructure for these projects. However it is a pretty big undertaking > to try and provide something complete, repo, mailing list, webspace, bug > tracking system, etc.. in such a way that we can easily add and segregate > projects. > > Tough question :/ 108 *is* the right solution, even if it still needs some work. Instead of throwing 108 aside, push to get 108 improved to do the job. I also think SourceForge would be a viable solution for some of these projects, but where these people decide to host their projects is really up to them. Our position is simply to say "This is not the right place for your project, we recommend that you try one of these other options..." Some might even prefer to use Google's new service. It would be great for us to support these projects to the best of our ability, but we should keep projects of these sorts separate from the infrastructure that builds the distribution. They are different types of projects that need different solutions. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com http://n-man.com/ LinkedIn: http://linkedin.com/in/nman64 Have I been helpful? Rate my assistance! http://rate.affero.net/nman64/ -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Fri Oct 20 14:26:58 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 10:26:58 -0400 Subject: [fab] Fedora Project and Hosting In-Reply-To: <4538DBDD.4060604@redhat.com> References: <3237e4410610200702j4bac2964jdaf78fa73c87b5f3@mail.gmail.com> <200610201012.58445.jkeating@redhat.com> <4538DBDD.4060604@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1161354418.14633.17.camel@cutter> On Fri, 2006-10-20 at 10:23 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > I don't think it's as tough as that. For example, we should really have > a git repo that fedora developers (including red hat folks!) can use. > If nothing else, being able to interact with the kernel, x.org and a > host of other projects is enough reason alone to just host that one thing. > > And I think that we don't have to worry about the whole big picture > here. We're not trying to compete with sourceforge, nor should we try. > But we should be facilitating individuals to get shit done. And a > variety of SCMs do just that. > It also makes it so people have to chase down a bunch of different scm tools just to be able to work on multiple projects in fedora. That's sad-face-making, too. Increasing complexity raises barriers to entry just as much as limiting the complexity overly-much does. There's a happy medium in there. One of every one isn't it. -sv From blizzard at redhat.com Fri Oct 20 14:29:03 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 10:29:03 -0400 Subject: [fab] Fedora Project and Hosting In-Reply-To: <200610200925.54292.nman64@n-man.com> References: <3237e4410610200702j4bac2964jdaf78fa73c87b5f3@mail.gmail.com> <200610201012.58445.jkeating@redhat.com> <200610200925.54292.nman64@n-man.com> Message-ID: <4538DD2F.7050605@redhat.com> Patrick W. Barnes wrote: > 108 *is* the right solution, even if it still needs some work. Instead of > throwing 108 aside, push to get 108 improved to do the job. I also think > SourceForge would be a viable solution for some of these projects, but where > these people decide to host their projects is really up to them. Our > position is simply to say "This is not the right place for your project, we > recommend that you try one of these other options..." Some might even prefer > to use Google's new service. > > It would be great for us to support these projects to the best of our ability, > but we should keep projects of these sorts separate from the infrastructure > that builds the distribution. They are different types of projects that need > different solutions. I really think that depends on the type of project we're talking about. To put it in more concrete terms, the livecd project it something that's specific to us. It's not distro-independent, and probably never will be. Given how long it took to even get my login working on 108, I don't think that it's a viable thing to sell to the community. Especially given that it's not even an open project. And it was my impression that it was for Red Hat to interact with its customers, not for a way for Red Hat to interact with the larger community of developers. Karsten might correct me on that, but I don't think I'm doing anyone an injustice by saying that. --Chris From blizzard at redhat.com Fri Oct 20 14:30:24 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 10:30:24 -0400 Subject: [fab] Fedora Project and Hosting In-Reply-To: <1161354418.14633.17.camel@cutter> References: <3237e4410610200702j4bac2964jdaf78fa73c87b5f3@mail.gmail.com> <200610201012.58445.jkeating@redhat.com> <4538DBDD.4060604@redhat.com> <1161354418.14633.17.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <4538DD80.8070905@redhat.com> seth vidal wrote: > On Fri, 2006-10-20 at 10:23 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > >> I don't think it's as tough as that. For example, we should really have >> a git repo that fedora developers (including red hat folks!) can use. >> If nothing else, being able to interact with the kernel, x.org and a >> host of other projects is enough reason alone to just host that one thing. >> >> And I think that we don't have to worry about the whole big picture >> here. We're not trying to compete with sourceforge, nor should we try. >> But we should be facilitating individuals to get shit done. And a >> variety of SCMs do just that. >> > > It also makes it so people have to chase down a bunch of different scm > tools just to be able to work on multiple projects in fedora. > > That's sad-face-making, too. > > Increasing complexity raises barriers to entry just as much as limiting > the complexity overly-much does. > > There's a happy medium in there. One of every one isn't it. Agreed completely. Once again, in concrete terms: o Do you think that supporting git is important? o How about TLA? (or whatever it's called these days) o monotone? Just three examples of SCMs that are in use today. What would you say to each of those? --Chris From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Fri Oct 20 14:32:16 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 10:32:16 -0400 Subject: [fab] Fedora Project and Hosting In-Reply-To: <1161354418.14633.17.camel@cutter> References: <3237e4410610200702j4bac2964jdaf78fa73c87b5f3@mail.gmail.com> <200610201012.58445.jkeating@redhat.com> <4538DBDD.4060604@redhat.com> <1161354418.14633.17.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1161354736.14633.21.camel@cutter> On Fri, 2006-10-20 at 10:26 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > On Fri, 2006-10-20 at 10:23 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > > > I don't think it's as tough as that. For example, we should really have > > a git repo that fedora developers (including red hat folks!) can use. > > If nothing else, being able to interact with the kernel, x.org and a > > host of other projects is enough reason alone to just host that one thing. > > > > And I think that we don't have to worry about the whole big picture > > here. We're not trying to compete with sourceforge, nor should we try. > > But we should be facilitating individuals to get shit done. And a > > variety of SCMs do just that. > > > > It also makes it so people have to chase down a bunch of different scm > tools just to be able to work on multiple projects in fedora. > > That's sad-face-making, too. > > Increasing complexity raises barriers to entry just as much as limiting > the complexity overly-much does. > > There's a happy medium in there. One of every one isn't it. > I want to add something here. I think the happy medium might be something like: cvs hg git I'm not sure that svn offers us much over cvs, etc and I'm not sure what bzr offers over hg or git. -sv From mmcgrath at fedoraproject.org Fri Oct 20 14:33:16 2006 From: mmcgrath at fedoraproject.org (Mike McGrath) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 09:33:16 -0500 Subject: [fab] Fedora Project and Hosting In-Reply-To: <4538DD80.8070905@redhat.com> References: <3237e4410610200702j4bac2964jdaf78fa73c87b5f3@mail.gmail.com> <200610201012.58445.jkeating@redhat.com> <4538DBDD.4060604@redhat.com> <1161354418.14633.17.camel@cutter> <4538DD80.8070905@redhat.com> Message-ID: <3237e4410610200733u3dad58ffra7cdf2cf5682d30c@mail.gmail.com> On 10/20/06, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > seth vidal wrote: > > On Fri, 2006-10-20 at 10:23 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > > > >> I don't think it's as tough as that. For example, we should really have > >> a git repo that fedora developers (including red hat folks!) can use. > >> If nothing else, being able to interact with the kernel, x.org and a > >> host of other projects is enough reason alone to just host that one thing. > >> Actually we do presently have a git/kernel repo. git.fedoraproject.org:/git/kernel -Mike From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Fri Oct 20 14:33:39 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 10:33:39 -0400 Subject: [fab] Fedora Project and Hosting In-Reply-To: <4538DD80.8070905@redhat.com> References: <3237e4410610200702j4bac2964jdaf78fa73c87b5f3@mail.gmail.com> <200610201012.58445.jkeating@redhat.com> <4538DBDD.4060604@redhat.com> <1161354418.14633.17.camel@cutter> <4538DD80.8070905@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1161354819.14633.24.camel@cutter> On Fri, 2006-10-20 at 10:30 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > seth vidal wrote: > > On Fri, 2006-10-20 at 10:23 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > > > >> I don't think it's as tough as that. For example, we should really have > >> a git repo that fedora developers (including red hat folks!) can use. > >> If nothing else, being able to interact with the kernel, x.org and a > >> host of other projects is enough reason alone to just host that one thing. > >> > >> And I think that we don't have to worry about the whole big picture > >> here. We're not trying to compete with sourceforge, nor should we try. > >> But we should be facilitating individuals to get shit done. And a > >> variety of SCMs do just that. > >> > > > > It also makes it so people have to chase down a bunch of different scm > > tools just to be able to work on multiple projects in fedora. > > > > That's sad-face-making, too. > > > > Increasing complexity raises barriers to entry just as much as limiting > > the complexity overly-much does. > > > > There's a happy medium in there. One of every one isn't it. > > Agreed completely. Once again, in concrete terms: > > o Do you think that supporting git is important? > o How about TLA? (or whatever it's called these days) > o monotone? > > Just three examples of SCMs that are in use today. What would you say > to each of those? > I just posted the list I think will let people cover the range of scm's fairly well. git cvs hg tla/monotone/etc doesn't seem to have the groundswell behind it svn isn't overtly interesting to me beyond a couple of features as compared to cvs -sv From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Fri Oct 20 14:34:37 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 10:34:37 -0400 Subject: [fab] Fedora Project and Hosting In-Reply-To: <3237e4410610200733u3dad58ffra7cdf2cf5682d30c@mail.gmail.com> References: <3237e4410610200702j4bac2964jdaf78fa73c87b5f3@mail.gmail.com> <200610201012.58445.jkeating@redhat.com> <4538DBDD.4060604@redhat.com> <1161354418.14633.17.camel@cutter> <4538DD80.8070905@redhat.com> <3237e4410610200733u3dad58ffra7cdf2cf5682d30c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1161354877.14633.26.camel@cutter> On Fri, 2006-10-20 at 09:33 -0500, Mike McGrath wrote: > On 10/20/06, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > > seth vidal wrote: > > > On Fri, 2006-10-20 at 10:23 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > > > > > >> I don't think it's as tough as that. For example, we should really have > > >> a git repo that fedora developers (including red hat folks!) can use. > > >> If nothing else, being able to interact with the kernel, x.org and a > > >> host of other projects is enough reason alone to just host that one thing. > > >> > > Actually we do presently have a git/kernel repo. > > git.fedoraproject.org:/git/kernel > it's ssh-key-auth'd, right? How difficult would that be to expand out to more projects in different subtrees from there? -sv From Christian.Iseli at licr.org Fri Oct 20 14:35:45 2006 From: Christian.Iseli at licr.org (Christian Iseli) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 16:35:45 +0200 Subject: [fab] Fedora Project and Hosting In-Reply-To: <200610201012.58445.jkeating@redhat.com> References: <3237e4410610200702j4bac2964jdaf78fa73c87b5f3@mail.gmail.com> <200610201012.58445.jkeating@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20061020163545.2a61d43a@ludwig-alpha.unil.ch> On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 10:12:48 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > Sending those people to sourceforge is not a very good solution, as I > wouldn't wish sourceforge on anybody's project. May I ask why ? Not trying to be a troll here, merely curious. I have a few projects hosted on SF. It's been slow at times. It's even been unavailable for a day or two sometimes. But overall, it's been pretty convenient. Lately they have completely revamped their CVS services, and it's been quite solid since then. The SVN service seems very good too (used to be much better than the CVS before the overhaul). I think there are a few other places that host open source projects too (though I haven't tried any). AFAIK, freshmeat doesn't host actual source code. About the original topic: I think Fedora-only projects should be hosted on fedoraproject.org, but the other stuff that can be used by a more general audience should probably be hosted on something like SF C From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Fri Oct 20 14:41:42 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 10:41:42 -0400 Subject: [fab] Fedora Project and Hosting In-Reply-To: <20061020163545.2a61d43a@ludwig-alpha.unil.ch> References: <3237e4410610200702j4bac2964jdaf78fa73c87b5f3@mail.gmail.com> <200610201012.58445.jkeating@redhat.com> <20061020163545.2a61d43a@ludwig-alpha.unil.ch> Message-ID: <1161355302.14633.30.camel@cutter> On Fri, 2006-10-20 at 16:35 +0200, Christian Iseli wrote: > On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 10:12:48 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > > Sending those people to sourceforge is not a very good solution, as I > > wouldn't wish sourceforge on anybody's project. > > May I ask why ? Not trying to be a troll here, merely curious. > > I have a few projects hosted on SF. It's been slow at times. It's > even been unavailable for a day or two sometimes. But overall, it's > been pretty convenient. Lately they have completely revamped their CVS > services, and it's been quite solid since then. The SVN service seems > very good too (used to be much better than the CVS before the overhaul). > > I think there are a few other places that host open source projects too > (though I haven't tried any). AFAIK, freshmeat doesn't host actual > source code. > > About the original topic: I think Fedora-only projects should be > hosted on fedoraproject.org, but the other stuff that can be used by a > more general audience should probably be hosted on something like SF > 1. it's slow 2. their mailing list interface kills kittens 3. their interface is so ad-riffic -sv From blizzard at redhat.com Fri Oct 20 14:45:58 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 10:45:58 -0400 Subject: [fab] Fedora Project and Hosting In-Reply-To: <3237e4410610200733u3dad58ffra7cdf2cf5682d30c@mail.gmail.com> References: <3237e4410610200702j4bac2964jdaf78fa73c87b5f3@mail.gmail.com> <200610201012.58445.jkeating@redhat.com> <4538DBDD.4060604@redhat.com> <1161354418.14633.17.camel@cutter> <4538DD80.8070905@redhat.com> <3237e4410610200733u3dad58ffra7cdf2cf5682d30c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4538E126.9010809@redhat.com> Mike McGrath wrote: > > Actually we do presently have a git/kernel repo. > > git.fedoraproject.org:/git/kernel > We do?! Good god, can other people use that? --Chris From wtogami at redhat.com Fri Oct 20 14:47:45 2006 From: wtogami at redhat.com (Warren Togami) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 10:47:45 -0400 Subject: [fab] Fedora Project and Hosting In-Reply-To: <3237e4410610200702j4bac2964jdaf78fa73c87b5f3@mail.gmail.com> References: <3237e4410610200702j4bac2964jdaf78fa73c87b5f3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4538E191.3050106@redhat.com> Mike McGrath wrote: > So people have been asking more and more for general VCS space, > sometimes SVN, GIT, CVS. My question for the board: Is the Fedora > Project a place to host this stuff or should we just point them to > freshmeat and sourceforge? Here's an example thats comes up: > > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/tickets/index.pl?Action=AgentTicketZoom&TicketID=102 > > > and another > > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/tickets/customer.pl?Action=CustomerTicketZoom&TicketID=94 > > We (infrastructure team) have rejected this latter case because the justification is weak and given our limited time and manpower resources we cannot handle such requests for the time being. In the long run however, we do need some easy way for Fedora contributors to build and host projects. Such a system must be automated in allowing users to create hosted projects using a self-serve interface. Ubuntu's Launchpad is very powerful in its ability for anybody to create a hosted project with repositories and other services. Even if the majority of sub-projects go nowhere, the flexibility and convenience does tend to allow projects to grow with close affiliations with the larger project. I personally witnessed the community enabling power of Launchpad while at the LTSP hackfest during September. During the course of the event, the Canonical engineer convinced LTSP upstream that they can better track their upstream source by maintaining it in bazaar repositories hosted by Launchpad. In one afternoon, they were able to create the project and checkin repositories, without any bureaucratic hassles or delays. The only real bad thing about Launchpad is that it itself is not FOSS. If Fedora creates an infrastructure to self-create projects and repositories like Launchpad, we would need to make it 100% FOSS. Warren Togami wtogami at redhat.com From jkeating at redhat.com Fri Oct 20 14:48:00 2006 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 10:48:00 -0400 Subject: [fab] Fedora Project and Hosting In-Reply-To: <20061020163545.2a61d43a@ludwig-alpha.unil.ch> References: <3237e4410610200702j4bac2964jdaf78fa73c87b5f3@mail.gmail.com> <200610201012.58445.jkeating@redhat.com> <20061020163545.2a61d43a@ludwig-alpha.unil.ch> Message-ID: <200610201048.01059.jkeating@redhat.com> On Friday 20 October 2006 10:35, Christian Iseli wrote: > May I ask why ? ?Not trying to be a troll here, merely curious. > > I have a few projects hosted on SF. ?It's been slow at times. ?It's > even been unavailable for a day or two sometimes. ?But overall, it's > been pretty convenient. ?Lately they have completely revamped their CVS > services, and it's been quite solid since then. ?The SVN service seems > very good too (used to be much better than the CVS before the overhaul). Their mailing list stuff (especially archives) are horrid. The bug tracking system is an abomination. These are two reasons enough for me. -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From blizzard at redhat.com Fri Oct 20 14:50:48 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 10:50:48 -0400 Subject: [fab] Fedora Project and Hosting In-Reply-To: <1161354819.14633.24.camel@cutter> References: <3237e4410610200702j4bac2964jdaf78fa73c87b5f3@mail.gmail.com> <200610201012.58445.jkeating@redhat.com> <4538DBDD.4060604@redhat.com> <1161354418.14633.17.camel@cutter> <4538DD80.8070905@redhat.com> <1161354819.14633.24.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <4538E248.8060903@redhat.com> seth vidal wrote: > git > cvs > hg > > tla/monotone/etc doesn't seem to have the groundswell behind it > svn isn't overtly interesting to me beyond a couple of features as > compared to cvs Right, that's what I would pick as well. Basically, how do we enable people to work as part of the larger community? That's what distributed SCMs allow you to do, and it's why we should be supporting them. Because we're part of that larger community. That's the metric that I would use. Does adding this bring more people into the fold, and enable them to get things done? Does it let them connect to the larger community in a meaningful way? A side note, not really relevant to the meta discussion is that svn is a "cvs that doesn't suck" and I would rather support it over cvs. But if we're talking about moving to a better SCM we might as well leapfrog right to something like git. --Chris From mmcgrath at fedoraproject.org Fri Oct 20 14:51:06 2006 From: mmcgrath at fedoraproject.org (Mike McGrath) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 09:51:06 -0500 Subject: [fab] Fedora Project and Hosting In-Reply-To: <4538E126.9010809@redhat.com> References: <3237e4410610200702j4bac2964jdaf78fa73c87b5f3@mail.gmail.com> <200610201012.58445.jkeating@redhat.com> <4538DBDD.4060604@redhat.com> <1161354418.14633.17.camel@cutter> <4538DD80.8070905@redhat.com> <3237e4410610200733u3dad58ffra7cdf2cf5682d30c@mail.gmail.com> <4538E126.9010809@redhat.com> Message-ID: <3237e4410610200751q4fa3878fv75d93203d570354@mail.gmail.com> On 10/20/06, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > Mike McGrath wrote: > > > > Actually we do presently have a git/kernel repo. > > > > git.fedoraproject.org:/git/kernel > > > > We do?! Good god, can other people use that? > > --Chris > Roland McGrath is currently the administrative sponsor for that group, but as far as I know yeah. Send him an email -Mike From jkeating at redhat.com Fri Oct 20 14:51:58 2006 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 10:51:58 -0400 Subject: [fab] Fedora Project and Hosting In-Reply-To: <4538E191.3050106@redhat.com> References: <3237e4410610200702j4bac2964jdaf78fa73c87b5f3@mail.gmail.com> <4538E191.3050106@redhat.com> Message-ID: <200610201051.58786.jkeating@redhat.com> On Friday 20 October 2006 10:47, Warren Togami wrote: > I personally witnessed the community enabling power of Launchpad while > at the LTSP hackfest during September. ?During the course of the event, > the Canonical engineer convinced LTSP upstream that they can better > track their upstream source by maintaining it in bazaar repositories > hosted by Launchpad. ?In one afternoon, they were able to create the > project and checkin repositories, without any bureaucratic hassles or > delays. What prevents somebody from creating a project and checking in sources that are highly illegal? -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Christian.Iseli at licr.org Fri Oct 20 14:54:57 2006 From: Christian.Iseli at licr.org (Christian Iseli) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 16:54:57 +0200 Subject: [fab] Fedora Project and Hosting In-Reply-To: <200610201048.01059.jkeating@redhat.com> References: <3237e4410610200702j4bac2964jdaf78fa73c87b5f3@mail.gmail.com> <200610201012.58445.jkeating@redhat.com> <20061020163545.2a61d43a@ludwig-alpha.unil.ch> <200610201048.01059.jkeating@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20061020165457.41ce10c6@ludwig-alpha.unil.ch> On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 10:48:00 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > Their mailing list stuff (especially archives) are horrid. Never used that part... > The bug tracking system is an abomination. :-) I agree I don't like it that much. > These are two reasons enough for me. Gotcha. C From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Fri Oct 20 14:55:19 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 10:55:19 -0400 Subject: [fab] Fedora Project and Hosting In-Reply-To: <4538E248.8060903@redhat.com> References: <3237e4410610200702j4bac2964jdaf78fa73c87b5f3@mail.gmail.com> <200610201012.58445.jkeating@redhat.com> <4538DBDD.4060604@redhat.com> <1161354418.14633.17.camel@cutter> <4538DD80.8070905@redhat.com> <1161354819.14633.24.camel@cutter> <4538E248.8060903@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1161356119.14633.35.camel@cutter> On Fri, 2006-10-20 at 10:50 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > seth vidal wrote: > > git > > cvs > > hg > > > > tla/monotone/etc doesn't seem to have the groundswell behind it > > svn isn't overtly interesting to me beyond a couple of features as > > compared to cvs > > Right, that's what I would pick as well. > > Basically, how do we enable people to work as part of the larger > community? That's what distributed SCMs allow you to do, and it's why > we should be supporting them. Because we're part of that larger > community. That's the metric that I would use. Does adding this bring > more people into the fold, and enable them to get things done? Does it > let them connect to the larger community in a meaningful way? > > A side note, not really relevant to the meta discussion is that svn is a > "cvs that doesn't suck" and I would rather support it over cvs. But if > we're talking about moving to a better SCM we might as well leapfrog > right to something like git. that may be true but svn requires a bunch of infrastructure that cvs doesn't. Moreover cvs has the vast majority of our data. Svn is better than cvs for some things, but it's not good enough to deal with the pain of transition, imo. -sv From mmcgrath at fedoraproject.org Fri Oct 20 14:55:36 2006 From: mmcgrath at fedoraproject.org (Mike McGrath) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 09:55:36 -0500 Subject: [fab] Fedora Project and Hosting In-Reply-To: <200610201051.58786.jkeating@redhat.com> References: <3237e4410610200702j4bac2964jdaf78fa73c87b5f3@mail.gmail.com> <4538E191.3050106@redhat.com> <200610201051.58786.jkeating@redhat.com> Message-ID: <3237e4410610200755y505310a1k641aaae31cf46098@mail.gmail.com> On 10/20/06, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Friday 20 October 2006 10:47, Warren Togami wrote: > > I personally witnessed the community enabling power of Launchpad while > > at the LTSP hackfest during September. During the course of the event, > > the Canonical engineer convinced LTSP upstream that they can better > > track their upstream source by maintaining it in bazaar repositories > > hosted by Launchpad. In one afternoon, they were able to create the > > project and checkin repositories, without any bureaucratic hassles or > > delays. > > What prevents somebody from creating a project and checking in sources that > are highly illegal? > Would our CLA cover us for this? -Mike From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Fri Oct 20 14:57:14 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 10:57:14 -0400 Subject: [fab] Fedora Project and Hosting In-Reply-To: <3237e4410610200755y505310a1k641aaae31cf46098@mail.gmail.com> References: <3237e4410610200702j4bac2964jdaf78fa73c87b5f3@mail.gmail.com> <4538E191.3050106@redhat.com> <200610201051.58786.jkeating@redhat.com> <3237e4410610200755y505310a1k641aaae31cf46098@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1161356234.14633.39.camel@cutter> On Fri, 2006-10-20 at 09:55 -0500, Mike McGrath wrote: > On 10/20/06, Jesse Keating wrote: > > On Friday 20 October 2006 10:47, Warren Togami wrote: > > > I personally witnessed the community enabling power of Launchpad while > > > at the LTSP hackfest during September. During the course of the event, > > > the Canonical engineer convinced LTSP upstream that they can better > > > track their upstream source by maintaining it in bazaar repositories > > > hosted by Launchpad. In one afternoon, they were able to create the > > > project and checkin repositories, without any bureaucratic hassles or > > > delays. > > > > What prevents somebody from creating a project and checking in sources that > > are highly illegal? > > > > Would our CLA cover us for this? > It might. provided we know it happened and get to it quickly enough. it's still a pr nightmare and in general just icky. -sv From wtogami at redhat.com Fri Oct 20 14:58:04 2006 From: wtogami at redhat.com (Warren Togami) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 10:58:04 -0400 Subject: [fab] Fedora Project and Hosting In-Reply-To: <200610201051.58786.jkeating@redhat.com> References: <3237e4410610200702j4bac2964jdaf78fa73c87b5f3@mail.gmail.com> <4538E191.3050106@redhat.com> <200610201051.58786.jkeating@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4538E3FC.9070804@redhat.com> Jesse Keating wrote: > On Friday 20 October 2006 10:47, Warren Togami wrote: >> I personally witnessed the community enabling power of Launchpad while >> at the LTSP hackfest during September. During the course of the event, >> the Canonical engineer convinced LTSP upstream that they can better >> track their upstream source by maintaining it in bazaar repositories >> hosted by Launchpad. In one afternoon, they were able to create the >> project and checkin repositories, without any bureaucratic hassles or >> delays. > > What prevents somebody from creating a project and checking in sources that > are highly illegal? CLA and some group membership that requires sponsorship would be more than sufficient to guard against this. cvsextras would be a good starting point. Warren Togami wtogami at redhat.com From blizzard at redhat.com Fri Oct 20 15:04:03 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 11:04:03 -0400 Subject: [fab] Fedora Project and Hosting In-Reply-To: <3237e4410610200751q4fa3878fv75d93203d570354@mail.gmail.com> References: <3237e4410610200702j4bac2964jdaf78fa73c87b5f3@mail.gmail.com> <200610201012.58445.jkeating@redhat.com> <4538DBDD.4060604@redhat.com> <1161354418.14633.17.camel@cutter> <4538DD80.8070905@redhat.com> <3237e4410610200733u3dad58ffra7cdf2cf5682d30c@mail.gmail.com> <4538E126.9010809@redhat.com> <3237e4410610200751q4fa3878fv75d93203d570354@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4538E563.3000102@redhat.com> Mike McGrath wrote: >> > Actually we do presently have a git/kernel repo. >> > >> > git.fedoraproject.org:/git/kernel >> > >> >> We do?! Good god, can other people use that? >> >> --Chris >> > > Roland McGrath is currently the administrative sponsor for that group, > but as far as I know yeah. Send him an email > Mail sent - thanks! --Chris From jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org Fri Oct 20 16:14:06 2006 From: jwboyer at jdub.homelinux.org (Josh Boyer) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 11:14:06 -0500 Subject: [fab] Fedora Project and Hosting In-Reply-To: <3237e4410610200751q4fa3878fv75d93203d570354@mail.gmail.com> References: <3237e4410610200702j4bac2964jdaf78fa73c87b5f3@mail.gmail.com> <200610201012.58445.jkeating@redhat.com> <4538DBDD.4060604@redhat.com> <1161354418.14633.17.camel@cutter> <4538DD80.8070905@redhat.com> <3237e4410610200733u3dad58ffra7cdf2cf5682d30c@mail.gmail.com> <4538E126.9010809@redhat.com> <3237e4410610200751q4fa3878fv75d93203d570354@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1161360846.22981.7.camel@zod.rchland.ibm.com> On Fri, 2006-10-20 at 09:51 -0500, Mike McGrath wrote: > On 10/20/06, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > > Mike McGrath wrote: > > > > > > Actually we do presently have a git/kernel repo. > > > > > > git.fedoraproject.org:/git/kernel > > > > > > > We do?! Good god, can other people use that? > > > > --Chris > > > > Roland McGrath is currently the administrative sponsor for that group, > but as far as I know yeah. Send him an email Is it available to non-RH folks? That would make me very very happy... josh From blizzard at redhat.com Fri Oct 20 16:18:24 2006 From: blizzard at redhat.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 12:18:24 -0400 Subject: [fab] Fedora Project and Hosting In-Reply-To: <1161360846.22981.7.camel@zod.rchland.ibm.com> References: <3237e4410610200702j4bac2964jdaf78fa73c87b5f3@mail.gmail.com> <200610201012.58445.jkeating@redhat.com> <4538DBDD.4060604@redhat.com> <1161354418.14633.17.camel@cutter> <4538DD80.8070905@redhat.com> <3237e4410610200733u3dad58ffra7cdf2cf5682d30c@mail.gmail.com> <4538E126.9010809@redhat.com> <3237e4410610200751q4fa3878fv75d93203d570354@mail.gmail.com> <1161360846.22981.7.camel@zod.rchland.ibm.com> Message-ID: <4538F6D0.4000808@redhat.com> Josh Boyer wrote: > On Fri, 2006-10-20 at 09:51 -0500, Mike McGrath wrote: >> On 10/20/06, Christopher Blizzard wrote: >>> Mike McGrath wrote: >>>> Actually we do presently have a git/kernel repo. >>>> >>>> git.fedoraproject.org:/git/kernel >>>> >>> We do?! Good god, can other people use that? >>> >>> --Chris >>> >> Roland McGrath is currently the administrative sponsor for that group, >> but as far as I know yeah. Send him an email > > Is it available to non-RH folks? That would make me very very happy... > I think that needs to be part of the picture, yeah. --Chris From jkeating at redhat.com Fri Oct 20 16:43:52 2006 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 12:43:52 -0400 Subject: [fab] Fedora Project and Hosting In-Reply-To: <4538E3FC.9070804@redhat.com> References: <3237e4410610200702j4bac2964jdaf78fa73c87b5f3@mail.gmail.com> <200610201051.58786.jkeating@redhat.com> <4538E3FC.9070804@redhat.com> Message-ID: <200610201243.52979.jkeating@redhat.com> On Friday 20 October 2006 10:58, Warren Togami wrote: > > What prevents somebody from creating a project and checking in sources > > that are highly illegal? > > CLA and some group membership that requires sponsorship would be more > than sufficient to guard against this. ?cvsextras would be a good > starting point. Which certainly sounds like "bureaucratic hassles or delays" to me. First a user has to get a CLA, then somebody has to sponsor them to be added into a group, and wait for propagation. My point being that we can't have any sort of self protection without bureaucratic processes. -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wtogami at redhat.com Fri Oct 20 16:59:02 2006 From: wtogami at redhat.com (Warren Togami) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 12:59:02 -0400 Subject: [fab] Fedora Project and Hosting In-Reply-To: <200610201243.52979.jkeating@redhat.com> References: <3237e4410610200702j4bac2964jdaf78fa73c87b5f3@mail.gmail.com> <200610201051.58786.jkeating@redhat.com> <4538E3FC.9070804@redhat.com> <200610201243.52979.jkeating@redhat.com> Message-ID: <45390056.2090107@redhat.com> Jesse Keating wrote: > On Friday 20 October 2006 10:58, Warren Togami wrote: >>> What prevents somebody from creating a project and checking in sources >>> that are highly illegal? >> CLA and some group membership that requires sponsorship would be more >> than sufficient to guard against this. cvsextras would be a good >> starting point. > > Which certainly sounds like "bureaucratic hassles or delays" to me. First a > user has to get a CLA, then somebody has to sponsor them to be added into a > group, and wait for propagation. > > My point being that we can't have any sort of self protection without > bureaucratic processes. Existing trusted users (who are quite numerous and membership expands at a good rate) would have free reign without bureaucratic overhead to create projects and repositories. They could grant commit access to others, and be responsible for content in repositories that they own. I see this as a good balance that both allows flexibility of developers to do what they want, with an effective amount of risk mitigation. Warren Togami wtogami at redhat.com From kwade at redhat.com Fri Oct 20 17:13:52 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 10:13:52 -0700 Subject: [fab] Fedora Project and Hosting In-Reply-To: <1161354045.14633.9.camel@cutter> References: <3237e4410610200702j4bac2964jdaf78fa73c87b5f3@mail.gmail.com> <200610201012.58445.jkeating@redhat.com> <1161354045.14633.9.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1161364432.2540.40.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2006-10-20 at 10:20 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > I won't say use 108 b/c: > 1. 108 is not open source s/108/SourceForge/ And unlike SF, the people behind 108 (me, Red Hat, etc.) are in favor of a 100% FLOSS solution. We just couldn't find one for the time-to-market. Also nice to have a managed hosting provider, with that same time-to-market. At the rate that Fedora is progressing with this, 108 could get there first. :) > 2. 108 is not a fedora project at all s/108/SourceForge/ s/108/Google hosting/ ... > 3. 108 requires YET ANOTHER ACCOUNT. s/108/SourceForge/ Not if you already have a redhat.com account, which many people either have already or will want. -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Fri Oct 20 17:16:28 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 10:16:28 -0700 Subject: [fab] Fedora Project and Hosting In-Reply-To: <4538E191.3050106@redhat.com> References: <3237e4410610200702j4bac2964jdaf78fa73c87b5f3@mail.gmail.com> <4538E191.3050106@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1161364589.2540.43.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2006-10-20 at 10:47 -0400, Warren Togami wrote: > In the long run however, we do need some easy way for Fedora > contributors to build and host projects. Such a system must be > automated in allowing users to create hosted projects using a self-serve > interface. > > Ubuntu's Launchpad is very powerful in its ability for anybody to create > a hosted project with repositories and other services. Even if the > majority of sub-projects go nowhere, the flexibility and convenience > does tend to allow projects to grow with close affiliations with the > larger project. > > I personally witnessed the community enabling power of Launchpad while > at the LTSP hackfest during September. During the course of the event, > the Canonical engineer convinced LTSP upstream that they can better > track their upstream source by maintaining it in bazaar repositories > hosted by Launchpad. In one afternoon, they were able to create the > project and checkin repositories, without any bureaucratic hassles or > delays. Yeah, I do that all the time with 108. > The only real bad thing about Launchpad is that it itself is not FOSS. > If Fedora creates an infrastructure to self-create projects and > repositories like Launchpad, we would need to make it 100% FOSS. Same as for 108, except 108 is a Red Hat thing, and we're clear where our ticket is -- clearly in the FLOSS camp. Again, I'm not suggesting 108 for Fedora, as we have cleared that up previously. Everyone jumped up and said they would help code a better solution, and then no one did. So, we're still where we were six months ago, in both the Fedora and the 108 camps. - Karsten - Karsten > Warren Togami > wtogami at redhat.com > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Fri Oct 20 17:22:39 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 10:22:39 -0700 Subject: [fab] Fedora Project and Hosting In-Reply-To: <4538DD2F.7050605@redhat.com> References: <3237e4410610200702j4bac2964jdaf78fa73c87b5f3@mail.gmail.com> <200610201012.58445.jkeating@redhat.com> <200610200925.54292.nman64@n-man.com> <4538DD2F.7050605@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1161364959.2540.51.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2006-10-20 at 10:29 -0400, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > I really think that depends on the type of project we're talking about. > To put it in more concrete terms, the livecd project it something > that's specific to us. It's not distro-independent, and probably never > will be. Given how long it took to even get my login working on 108, I > don't think that it's a viable thing to sell to the community. That's not a fair comparison. You were an early adopter and actually a special case; resolving your problem resolved the problem for countless other users. I thank you for your pain in being an alpha tester. We don't run into that anymore. Just other problems. :) > Especially given that it's not even an open project. The project is open. ONE PIECE of the infrastructure is mainly closed source. IF there were a viable, hosted solution that we could have used, we would have. IF we can make a better solution, it will definitely be considered. > And it was my impression that it was for Red Hat to interact with its > customers, not for a way for Red Hat to interact with the larger > community of developers. Karsten might correct me on that, but I don't > think I'm doing anyone an injustice by saying that. Our first focus is the abandoned customer developers, and the new ones we want to attract. That's just sensible. However, 108 is much more than that. It is in fact one of the ways that Red Hat is interacting with the larger community of developers, where appropriate. Not replacing, but supplementing. For example, we registered dev108.org specifically to act as an upstream location for projects. Right now, dev108.org points at the current infrastructure. Were we to start replacing components with FLOSS pieces, perhaps it would all be on the sister-site of dev108.org. Who knows? The point is, we get to that bright future by opening doors and windows, not closing them. It is vital that Red Hat developers understand and support 108 in this, or else it is a lost battle before it has even left the planning stage. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From skvidal at linux.duke.edu Fri Oct 20 17:23:39 2006 From: skvidal at linux.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 13:23:39 -0400 Subject: [fab] Fedora Project and Hosting In-Reply-To: <1161364432.2540.40.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <3237e4410610200702j4bac2964jdaf78fa73c87b5f3@mail.gmail.com> <200610201012.58445.jkeating@redhat.com> <1161354045.14633.9.camel@cutter> <1161364432.2540.40.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1161365019.14633.53.camel@cutter> On Fri, 2006-10-20 at 10:13 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Fri, 2006-10-20 at 10:20 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > > > I won't say use 108 b/c: > > 1. 108 is not open source > > s/108/SourceForge/ You won't see me arguing for sf, either. So the above point is moot. > > And unlike SF, the people behind 108 (me, Red Hat, etc.) are in favor of > a 100% FLOSS solution. We just couldn't find one for the > time-to-market. Also nice to have a managed hosting provider, with that > same time-to-market. I think I'll believe it when I see it. We've been waiting on lots of things that red hat has 'promised' to make open source and yet somehow has found reasons not to release *cough* brew, distill *cough* > Not if you already have a redhat.com account, which many people either > have already or will want. which is nice but I already have a fedora account. I'd prefer to use it. -sv From jkeating at redhat.com Fri Oct 20 17:34:53 2006 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 13:34:53 -0400 Subject: [fab] Fedora Project and Hosting In-Reply-To: <45390056.2090107@redhat.com> References: <3237e4410610200702j4bac2964jdaf78fa73c87b5f3@mail.gmail.com> <200610201243.52979.jkeating@redhat.com> <45390056.2090107@redhat.com> Message-ID: <200610201334.53202.jkeating@redhat.com> On Friday 20 October 2006 12:59, Warren Togami wrote: > Existing trusted users (who are quite numerous and membership expands at > a good rate) would have free reign without bureaucratic overhead to > create projects and repositories. ?They could grant commit access to > others, and be responsible for content in repositories that they own. > > I see this as a good balance that both allows flexibility of developers > to do what they want, with an effective amount of risk mitigation. Absolutely. I don't discount that at all. (although we can't allow them to call it a 'Fedora' project until it goes through the approval method for that...) However I just want to make aware that for an outside person who wants to start a project for Fedora may have to jump through the hoops of becoming a 'trusted user'. -- Jesse Keating Release Engineer: Fedora -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rdieter at math.unl.edu Fri Oct 20 17:40:31 2006 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 12:40:31 -0500 Subject: [fab] Fedora Project and Hosting In-Reply-To: <200610201334.53202.jkeating@redhat.com> References: <3237e4410610200702j4bac2964jdaf78fa73c87b5f3@mail.gmail.com> <200610201243.52979.jkeating@redhat.com> <45390056.2090107@redhat.com> <200610201334.53202.jkeating@redhat.com> Message-ID: <45390A0F.3010603@math.unl.edu> Jesse Keating wrote: > However I just want to make aware that for an outside person who wants to > start a project for Fedora may have to jump through the hoops of becoming > a 'trusted user'. Or convince some other 'trusted user' to start the project for/with you. (: -- Rex From max at spevack.org Fri Oct 20 19:36:40 2006 From: max at spevack.org (Max Spevack) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 15:36:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Fedora Project and Hosting In-Reply-To: <4538F6D0.4000808@redhat.com> References: <3237e4410610200702j4bac2964jdaf78fa73c87b5f3@mail.gmail.com> <200610201012.58445.jkeating@redhat.com> <4538DBDD.4060604@redhat.com> <1161354418.14633.17.camel@cutter> <4538DD80.8070905@redhat.com> <3237e4410610200733u3dad58ffra7cdf2cf5682d30c@mail.gmail.com> <4538E126.9010809@redhat.com> <3237e4410610200751q4fa3878fv75d93203d570354@mail.gmail.com> <1161360846.22981.7.camel@zod.rchland.ibm.com> <4538F6D0.4000808@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Oct 2006, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > > Is it available to non-RH folks? That would make me very very > > happy... > > > > I think that needs to be part of the picture, yeah. If it's not, we ought to figure out how we can make it so, while still maintaining the integrity of the code hosted on it -- ie, making sure someone doesn't upload a bunch of proprietary crap. If it already is, then I guess we need to make sure folks who are looking for it know that it exists. My $.02 of obviousness. --Max From gdk at redhat.com Fri Oct 20 20:59:40 2006 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 16:59:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [fab] Fedora Project and Hosting In-Reply-To: <3237e4410610200755y505310a1k641aaae31cf46098@mail.gmail.com> References: <3237e4410610200702j4bac2964jdaf78fa73c87b5f3@mail.gmail.com> <4538E191.3050106@redhat.com> <200610201051.58786.jkeating@redhat.com> <3237e4410610200755y505310a1k641aaae31cf46098@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Oct 2006, Mike McGrath wrote: >> What prevents somebody from creating a project and checking in sources that >> are highly illegal? > > Would our CLA cover us for this? Yep. That's the purpose of the CLA. --g From smooge at gmail.com Sat Oct 21 03:49:33 2006 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 21:49:33 -0600 Subject: [fab] Fedora Project and Hosting In-Reply-To: <1161364432.2540.40.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <3237e4410610200702j4bac2964jdaf78fa73c87b5f3@mail.gmail.com> <200610201012.58445.jkeating@redhat.com> <1161354045.14633.9.camel@cutter> <1161364432.2540.40.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <80d7e4090610202049n41b77c2er11f98a044b6d3dbb@mail.gmail.com> On 10/20/06, Karsten Wade wrote: > > 3. 108 requires YET ANOTHER ACCOUNT. > > s/108/SourceForge/ > > Not if you already have a redhat.com account, which many people either > have already or will want. Why? If a person has gone through all the 'hassles' of getting a Fedora account, why would they want to set up yet another? Please don't take them to be dissing 108 questions.. they are meant to be flow questions. At this stage in the game of fedora, it should be a simple flow from one webpage to another with information shared between the sites. Setting up a savannah site would probably accomplish as much but would be more resources that an overtaxed infrastructure team would want. -- Stephen J Smoogen. -- CSIRT/Linux System Administrator How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice" From wtogami at redhat.com Sat Oct 21 13:19:34 2006 From: wtogami at redhat.com (Warren Togami) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 09:19:34 -0400 Subject: [fab] Fedora Project and Hosting In-Reply-To: <200610201334.53202.jkeating@redhat.com> References: <3237e4410610200702j4bac2964jdaf78fa73c87b5f3@mail.gmail.com> <200610201243.52979.jkeating@redhat.com> <45390056.2090107@redhat.com> <200610201334.53202.jkeating@redhat.com> Message-ID: <453A1E66.2090506@redhat.com> Jesse Keating wrote: > On Friday 20 October 2006 12:59, Warren Togami wrote: >> Existing trusted users (who are quite numerous and membership expands at >> a good rate) would have free reign without bureaucratic overhead to >> create projects and repositories. They could grant commit access to >> others, and be responsible for content in repositories that they own. >> >> I see this as a good balance that both allows flexibility of developers >> to do what they want, with an effective amount of risk mitigation. > > Absolutely. I don't discount that at all. (although we can't allow them to > call it a 'Fedora' project until it goes through the approval method for > that...) Maybe Launchpad was smart in naming itself something separate from Ubuntu. Ubuntu projects (among others) just happen to be hosted there. We could do something similar to this. > > However I just want to make aware that for an outside person who wants to > start a project for Fedora may have to jump through the hoops of becoming > a 'trusted user'. > We need to create more formally defined paths to become a 'trusted user'. Warren Togami wtogami at redhat.com From nman64 at n-man.com Thu Oct 26 05:21:21 2006 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick W. Barnes) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 00:21:21 -0500 Subject: [fab] The Future of RPM - now's the time to decide Message-ID: <200610260021.24260.nman64@n-man.com> There's been a lot of discussion broken up in many places over the future of RPM, all surrounding BZ 174307. I'm not extremely familiar with all of the background, but there's one thing that is clear: upstream is a problem and we need to decide how to deal with it. I've seen a lot of talk about forking RPM, and I personally feel that's the right way to go, but I haven't seen any final word on this. Now, the future of something as important as RPM can't be wholly determined by the community without regard to Red Hat, but I think we can come up with a resolution here and the right people can push that resolution through Red Hat. I'm wanting to see two things: 1. A definite "yes, we'll fork" or "no, we'll deal with jbj". 2. In the case of a fork, someone needs an action item to lead the way. Now is NOT the time to discuss dramatic changes in the package manager or potential concerns over things like the tool's name, we just need to figure out what path we're going to take for the long-term maintenance of RPM. With FC6 out the door, and the PR pressure starting to build, we need to make a decision ASAP so that we can move forward for FC7. Let's rip off the band-aid and let the healing begin. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com http://n-man.com/ LinkedIn: http://linkedin.com/in/nman64 Have I been helpful? Rate my assistance! http://rate.affero.net/nman64/ -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From smooge at gmail.com Thu Oct 26 19:52:28 2006 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 13:52:28 -0600 Subject: [fab] The Future of RPM - now's the time to decide In-Reply-To: <200610260021.24260.nman64@n-man.com> References: <200610260021.24260.nman64@n-man.com> Message-ID: <80d7e4090610261252y4e5dae0cr62e69d3d4aafac65@mail.gmail.com> On 10/25/06, Patrick W. Barnes wrote: > There's been a lot of discussion broken up in many places over the future of > RPM, all surrounding BZ 174307. I'm not extremely familiar with all of the > background, but there's one thing that is clear: upstream is a problem and > we need to decide how to deal with it. > > I've seen a lot of talk about forking RPM, and I personally feel that's the > right way to go, but I haven't seen any final word on this. Now, the future > of something as important as RPM can't be wholly determined by the community > without regard to Red Hat, but I think we can come up with a resolution here > and the right people can push that resolution through Red Hat. > > I'm wanting to see two things: > > 1. A definite "yes, we'll fork" or "no, we'll deal with jbj". > 2. In the case of a fork, someone needs an action item to lead the way. > > Now is NOT the time to discuss dramatic changes in the package manager or > potential concerns over things like the tool's name, we just need to figure > out what path we're going to take for the long-term maintenance of RPM. > > With FC6 out the door, and the PR pressure starting to build, we need to make > a decision ASAP so that we can move forward for FC7. Let's rip off the > band-aid and let the healing begin. > I think it will be more like you will need stiches, sutures, and some major healing time. If Red Hat is going to fork.. it will need to make sure that the person holding the bag gets a strong support model, and a good idea of what is required and when. -- Stephen J Smoogen. -- CSIRT/Linux System Administrator How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice" From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Oct 30 18:55:06 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 00:25:06 +0530 Subject: [fab] Licensing audit for Fedora Extras Message-ID: <45464A8A.6080503@fedoraproject.org> Hi We discussed earlier the idea of continuing the Free software licensing audit* post Fedora Core 6 release that we completed for Fedora Core already on Fedora Extras too just to cross check and make sure we are only including 100% Free software. Spot, are we ready to do this now? Rahul * http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FreeSoftwareAnalysis From tcallawa at redhat.com Mon Oct 30 18:57:52 2006 From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom 'spot' Callaway) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 12:57:52 -0600 Subject: [fab] Re: Licensing audit for Fedora Extras In-Reply-To: <45464A8A.6080503@fedoraproject.org> References: <45464A8A.6080503@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1162234672.7933.206.camel@dhcp-32-122.ord.redhat.com> On Tue, 2006-10-31 at 00:25 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > We discussed earlier the idea of continuing the Free software licensing > audit* post Fedora Core 6 release that we completed for Fedora Core > already on Fedora Extras too just to cross check and make sure we are > only including 100% Free software. > > Spot, are we ready to do this now? > > Rahul > > > * http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FreeSoftwareAnalysis I'd like to try and get an Aurora release out first. Is there any reason this can't wait until December? ~spot -- Tom "spot" Callaway || Red Hat || Fedora || Aurora || GPG ID: 93054260 "We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty. We must remember always that accusation is not proof and that conviction depends upon evidence and due process of law. We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason, if we dig deep in our history and our doctrine, and remember that we are not descended from fearful men -- not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were, for the moment, unpopular." -- Edward R. Murrow, March 9, 1954 From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Oct 30 19:02:58 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 00:32:58 +0530 Subject: [fab] Re: Licensing audit for Fedora Extras In-Reply-To: <1162234672.7933.206.camel@dhcp-32-122.ord.redhat.com> References: <45464A8A.6080503@fedoraproject.org> <1162234672.7933.206.camel@dhcp-32-122.ord.redhat.com> Message-ID: <45464C62.4050104@fedoraproject.org> Tom 'spot' Callaway wrote: > On Tue, 2006-10-31 at 00:25 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> Hi >> >> We discussed earlier the idea of continuing the Free software licensing >> audit* post Fedora Core 6 release that we completed for Fedora Core >> already on Fedora Extras too just to cross check and make sure we are >> only including 100% Free software. >> >> Spot, are we ready to do this now? >> >> Rahul >> >> >> * http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FreeSoftwareAnalysis > > I'd like to try and get an Aurora release out first. Is there any reason > this can't wait until December? I think we wouldnt have a problem waiting until December but I havent seen the next release of Fedora and we might be putting extras on media too so we should be avoiding late changes. Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Oct 30 19:08:12 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 00:38:12 +0530 Subject: [fab] Re: Licensing audit for Fedora Extras In-Reply-To: <45464C62.4050104@fedoraproject.org> References: <45464A8A.6080503@fedoraproject.org> <1162234672.7933.206.camel@dhcp-32-122.ord.redhat.com> <45464C62.4050104@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <45464D9C.2070106@fedoraproject.org> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > I think we wouldnt have a problem waiting until December but I havent > seen the next release of Fedora and we might be putting extras on media > too so we should be avoiding late changes. > Err. Hit the send button too fast. I meant I havent seen the release schedule for the next release. Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Oct 31 19:48:08 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 01:18:08 +0530 Subject: [fab] Software Freedom Conservancy and Fedora Message-ID: <4547A878.9010700@fedoraproject.org> Hi http://lwn.net/Articles/204870/ Any thoughts on this as a Fedora Foundation* alternative? It seems to buy Fedora several benefits like ability to function as a non-profit without the administrative overhead. Rahul * http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Foundation