From sebastian at when.com Tue Apr 1 00:33:37 2008 From: sebastian at when.com (sebastian at when.com) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 20:33:37 -0400 Subject: Coordinate different education spins/efforts? In-Reply-To: <1206739084.30372.173.camel@calliope.phig.org> References: <47ECD666.4040807@leemhuis.info> <20080328122538.GA22015@puariko.nirvana> <1206739084.30372.173.camel@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <8CA61A728800741-1654-E85@webmail-df01.sysops.aol.com> Hi all, sorry for the late response, but I am still not back home... Well, what Karsten says sounds for me pretty good: I agree, that it might not be necessary to merge the two projects, but at least, we should talk about a deeper collaboration. If I got you correctly, the f-edu-l would be the first place for education questions in general and questions concerning Fedora and education. The k12-list would be more for technical questions and topics concerning the integration of K12LTSP into Fedora. AFAICS, cleaning the project pages up would be a good idea, too. What is old? what should be renewed? Where do we link to which project? But this incorporates, that we _talk_ about how to do this and how to create contents, which do not interfere with each other. So I think, that working actively together and being connected would be a requirement for successful cooperation. On the other hand, I did not get much feedback from Warren, what he thinks about such a plan. If we would work out the different tasks for each project (further education spins, OLPC, K12LTSP, and so on) based on Karstens proposal here, does this sound like an acceptable solution for everybody? Warren? Sebastian -----Original Message----- From: Karsten 'quaid' Wade To: fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com Sent: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 5:18 pm Subject: Re: Coordinate different education spins/efforts? On Fri, 2008-03-28 at 14:25 +0200, Axel Thimm wrote: > > Both K12Linux and the Edu-Sig have slightly different target > > audiences/goals afaics, but they are not that different and I suppose > > most users will not understand the difference between "K12Linux is > > Fedora's spin for educational technology." and "The project aims to > > optimize Fedora for use at universities and schools as well as for > > education usage by schoolers or students.". > > The way I understand it is that K12Linux is a decendent from K12LTSP > which was about integrating LTSP into Fedora. The current tag for > K12Linux is "Using Linux For Your School Server". Furthermore the > project describes itself more like an upstream project: "K12 Linux is > really about education, not so much about a particular distro or > package". > > OTOH the education sig is definitely Fedora specific and looks beyond > server/client connectivity topics. I'm not sure that merging them > would really benefit the two groups (that certainly do partly overlap). This makes some sense. I'll take a stab at rolling a middle ground out of this ... What if the groups agreed to actively work on being connected to each other? As well as cleaning up the project pages so they interlock and don't appear to contradict. How to be connected? * Make f-education-l the place for discussing the meta-topic of Fedora in education. On-topic includes: various spins, OLPC branches, evangelizing K12LTSP + Fedora, etc. * Have the K12LTSP list focus on the technical details of making Fedora a first rate/first class distro for running K12LTSP on top of. Anything about general Fedora and education is off-topic and should go to the f-edu-l list. Then everyone on the K12LTSP list should subscribe to the f-edu-list, but the reverse is not needed. Work is done on that list to work out interlocked project, feature, and spin pages. Why this method benefits both parties: * Gives Ambassadors one, connected story to tell, which * Makes better connections at events where K12LTSP is present, and * We can start to look for other, greater connections (Fedora CC Education Spin, Fedora Blender Spin for Students, etc.) * Provides technical and social bits for different kinds of contributors to chew on - Karsten ________________________________________________________________________ Stand above the crowd! Get a free email address that expresses who you are at http://domains.aol.com From kanarip at kanarip.com Wed Apr 2 12:33:34 2008 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 14:33:34 +0200 Subject: Fedora Unity releases updated Fedora 8 Re-Spin Message-ID: <47F37D1E.3060303@kanarip.com> The Fedora Unity Project is proud to announce the release of new ISO Re-Spins (DVD and CD Sets) of Fedora 8. These Re-Spin ISOs are based on the officially released Fedora 8 installation media and include all updates released as of March 31st, 2008. The ISO images are available for i386, x86_64 and PPC architectures via Jigdo starting Wednesday, April 2nd, 2008. We have included CD Image sets for those in the Fedora community that do not have DVD drives or burners available. During the Testing phase the following was found: 1) a full x86_64 install with many optional packages or languages requires at least 768MB of RAM rather than the recommended 512MB. 2) the ftp utility in rescue mode will not work (missing libreadline.so.5) -which doesn't affect FTP installations. With this particular Re-Spin, we address the following problems experienced by many community members, in addition to the problems we've resolved in previous Re-Spins[1]: - #420281, Cannot find kickstart file during unattended installation The kickstart file name searched for after booting from CD or DVD with option "linux ks" and using a dhcp and nfs server is wrong. We would like to give a special thanks to the following for testing this respin in 2 days - Harley-D Dana Hoffman Jr - zcat Jason Farrell - iWolf Jeffrey Tadlock - baard1973 S.A. Hartsuiker - Southern_Gentleman Ben Williams - kanarip Jeroen van Meeuwen Fedora Unity has taken up the Re-Spin task to provide the community with the chance to install Fedora with recent updates already included. These updates might otherwise comprise more than 1.33GiB of downloads for a full install. This is a community project, for and by the community. You can contribute to the community by joining our test process. A full list of bugs, packages and changelogs that have been updated in this Re-Spin can be reviewed on http://spins.fedoraunity.org/changelogs/20080331/ Go to http://spins.fedoraunity.org/spins to get the bits! If you are interested in helping with the testing or mirroring efforts, please contact the Fedora Unity team. Contact information is available at http://fedoraunity.org/ or the #fedora-unity channel on the Freenode IRC Network (irc.freenode.net). To report bugs in the Re-Spins please use http://bugs.fedoraunity.org/ Kind regards, The Fedora Unity Team [1] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-announce-list/2007-December/msg00008.html From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Apr 2 15:41:10 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 21:11:10 +0530 Subject: Spins proposals In-Reply-To: <1206969809.3801.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1206969809.3801.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <47F3A916.1020208@fedoraproject.org> Paul W. Frields wrote: > Jeff Spaleta has been kind enough to post his spin proposals on the wiki > for easier reading and comment. The main proposal is at: > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JefSpaleta/SpinReleaseProcessProposal > > There are supplemental addenda at: > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JefSpaleta/SpinReleaseProcessAmendments > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JefSpaleta/CommunityHostedSpins I am a bit tired of the spins discussion at this point but there are a few odd things and some clarifications I need. * IMO, it would be better to do a public proposal to fedora-devel list and then take it to spins SIG so we get more public feedback on new spin proposals. * Release selection process doesn't say whether or not a older spin for the older release or the current release will be retained when there is a updated one available. * Rel-eng is tasked with creating the final spin which I thought they weren't interested in. * Fedora QA is tasked with testing all the release spins. Nominally being part of that team, I don't think QA has the resources (ie) enough people involved considering that we have a six month release cycle and lots of bugs to deal with * Why is there a need to re-propose every spin each release? Spins rotation talks about throwing away established spins in favor of new spins unless rel-eng decides it is a permanent spin. If spins are long live, doesnt that by itself mean it more of a permanent spin with enough users around it and we shouldn't throw it away? If spins neeed to be marked as permanent ones, shouldn't that be a decision of the spin SIG instead of rel-eng? Rahul From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 17:06:22 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 09:06:22 -0800 Subject: Spins proposals In-Reply-To: <47F3A916.1020208@fedoraproject.org> References: <1206969809.3801.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47F3A916.1020208@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <604aa7910804021006r1862c112vd7be48543d28e4b3@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 7:41 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > * IMO, it would be better to do a public proposal to fedora-devel list and > then take it to spins SIG so we get more public feedback on new spin > proposals. > You are free to discuss it anywhere you want before taking it to the spins SIG to start the process of getting trademark approval. If the Spin SIG wants to require -devel-list discussion as best practices that will be their call. I'm not going to block on the organizing of a general framework meant to better balance how RelEng, the Board and the community all fit together, based on whether or not its a best practice to discuss things on fedora-devel. > * Release selection process doesn't say whether or not a older spin for > the older release or the current release will be retained when there is a > updated one available. > RelEng's call, which will impact space estimate considerations at release selection time. If RelEng want's to keep the gold release around for each released spin, then that's how hosting space estimates will be handled. >From discussion I expect RelEng to require the goal release to be retained, which will drop the number of spins that can be released. > * Rel-eng is tasked with creating the final spin which I thought they > weren't interested in. Rel-eng, I'm pretty sure, is interested in...releases. This process ties spin release selection to the actual fedora release process. Which is completely different than what we have now, where spin concepts are a running submission que that can't be easily planned for. So this proposal organizes RelEng's role such that RelEng can work in selected spin composes into the overall pre-release testing aimed at a release. The two tiered system is meant to address this issues of overwhelming RelEng. If we do it correctly, the Kickstart Pool and links to external hosting on spins.fp.org could provide enough infrastructure to satisfy a lot of spin concept needs, without ever having to burden RelEng with anything and without having submit spins to a more tightly controlled 'release' process. * Fedora QA is tasked with testing all the release spins. Nominally being > part of that team, I don't think QA has the resources (ie) enough people > involved considering that we have a six month release cycle and lots of bugs > to deal with How QA gets the testing done is QA's perview. But the tasking is most certaintly correctly scoped. I will be blunt. I think we've had a significant problem with the QA process for multiple releases now. We must find a way to organize volunteer labor better with regard to QA..generally. If QA wants to officially get on the record as saying they aren't going to take the responsibility of testing the composed images that RelEng has selected and working on as part of a release cycle... then by all means get on the record....as a group put your foot down in protest...so I can come in with my riot gear and tear gas and bust some skulls. Or QA as a group try to get involved with the formation of the Spin SIG and make sure they are well prepared to do a significant amount of the QA as part of Kickstart Pool management. I think you are missing part of the point as to why the Spin SIG and the Kickstart Pool is being setup to begin with. The Spin SIG may very well find that its in their mutual best interest in getting involved more directly in the QA process..even before a spin has been selected for release. And it very well maybe in QA's best interest to find a way to guide the Spin SIGs involvement in post-release testing as well. But that's a conversation for the Spin SIG and QA to have at some point between now and the start of the F10 release cycle. > * Why is there a need to re-propose every spin each release? First of all.. that was from the supplement url for ideas that need further discussion. It should not be construed as being part of the basic framework that must happen to make room for the Spin SIG. I wish you had taking the time to post a separate thread concerning the supplemental ideas, as to avoid any confusing this idea is part of the basic framework. It isn't. But to answer you question... Why do things need to be re-proposed? Fairness when doling out finite hosting resources. > Spins rotation talks about throwing away established spins in favor of > new spins unless rel-eng decides it is a permanent spin. If spins are long > live, doesnt that by itself mean it more of a permanent spin with enough > users around it and we shouldn't throw it away? Then we need to state...emphatically that the ARE permanent. You totally missed the point. Its about fairness with regard to resource consumption. I do not want a situation where we consume all available hosting space with permanent spins.. release after release...making no room for additional concepts that are technically viable and deserve a chance at a wider audience by being part of a release, part of the release notes, and part of general release propaganda. So I setup a situation where we have to be explicit. If a spin should be permanent we state that it is..and we make sure that we have a hosting commitment for an additional rotating spin before we give a spin permanent status. If we do things correctly.. we will never really need to throw away a long lived spin, because the 'right' people will have a policy backed incentive to make sure we have the hosting in place to keep the permanent spins around. And at the same time, we never give the false impression that a niche spin is going to be available every single release. Permanence will be a higher bar than release selection. If spins neeed to be marked as permanent ones, shouldn't that be a decision > of the spin SIG instead of rel-eng? > Not really.. since release selection is completely scoped with Rel-Eng. This is a modification to what Rel-eng is tasked to do...the making of final release selections for each release. Surely the Spin SIG will have input, but the decision is Rel-Eng's because the release selection decision process is controlled by Rel-Eng. -jef -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonstanley at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 17:55:46 2008 From: jonstanley at gmail.com (Jon Stanley) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 13:55:46 -0400 Subject: Spins proposals In-Reply-To: <604aa7910804021006r1862c112vd7be48543d28e4b3@mail.gmail.com> References: <1206969809.3801.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47F3A916.1020208@fedoraproject.org> <604aa7910804021006r1862c112vd7be48543d28e4b3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 1:06 PM, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > I will be blunt. I think we've had a significant problem with the QA > process for multiple releases now. We must find a way to organize > volunteer labor better with regard to QA..generally. A lot of that is being taken care of with F9 - we had (IMHO) a very successful QA process for Beta. There is now a testing matrix that includes owners, test cases, etc, that we've not really had before. > If QA wants to officially get on the record as saying they aren't going to > take the responsibility of testing the composed images that RelEng has > selected and working on as part of a release cycle... then by all means get > on the record....as a group put your foot down in protest...so I can come in > with my riot gear and tear gas and bust some skulls. Well, I don't think I can speak for QA (Will), but I'm fairly certain that we don't have the resources to do this. We have a difficult time as is doing the release testing that exists today, let alone adding an as yet undetermined number of custom spins to the mix. Spin owners are responsible for building, maintaining, and executing their own test plans. These plans should include the standard Fedora test plan, and any extensions the spin owners feel appropriate. > Or QA as a group try to get involved with the formation of the Spin SIG and > make sure they are well prepared to do a significant amount of the QA as > part of Kickstart Pool management. We can try to do this, but our resources are stretched pretty thin right now. As mentioned before, spin owners are responsible for the QA of their spins. We (QA) cannot do much more than basic sanity tests. I am now prepared for the riot gear and tear gas. -Jon From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 18:09:14 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 10:09:14 -0800 Subject: Spins proposals In-Reply-To: References: <1206969809.3801.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47F3A916.1020208@fedoraproject.org> <604aa7910804021006r1862c112vd7be48543d28e4b3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910804021109i3fe4b27cm20a43d198dfb8d3a@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 9:55 AM, Jon Stanley wrote: > We can try to do this, but our resources are stretched pretty thin > right now. As mentioned before, spin owners are responsible for the > QA of their spins. We (QA) cannot do much more than basic sanity > tests. > > I am now prepared for the riot gear and tear gas. > Let me be clear. If you want to hand the testing right back over the the spin maintainer with guidance on what needs to be done....fine with me. The Board isn't going to mandate how QA tasks its work. But this most definitely falls under QA to decide and guide others on what and how and who needs to do this or any release testing. Deputize all the members of the Spin Sig if you have to, but its QA's call to organize the workflow for QA. You've a broad mandate to organize the testing space. -jef -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonstanley at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 18:25:33 2008 From: jonstanley at gmail.com (Jon Stanley) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 14:25:33 -0400 Subject: Spins proposals In-Reply-To: <604aa7910804021109i3fe4b27cm20a43d198dfb8d3a@mail.gmail.com> References: <1206969809.3801.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47F3A916.1020208@fedoraproject.org> <604aa7910804021006r1862c112vd7be48543d28e4b3@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910804021109i3fe4b27cm20a43d198dfb8d3a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 2:09 PM, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > Let me be clear. If you want to hand the testing right back over the the > spin maintainer with guidance on what needs to be done....fine with me. OK, I was thinking that you were saying that the QA team had to personally do all of this work that we have no resources to do, this is more in line with what we had in mind - give a basic Fedora test plan, and have the spin maintainer expand on/maintain/execute that test plan. > Board isn't going to mandate how QA tasks its work. But this most definitely > falls under QA to decide and guide others on what and how and who needs to > do this or any release testing. Agreed. > Deputize all the members of the Spin Sig if > you have to, but its QA's call to organize the workflow for QA. You've a > broad mandate to organize the testing space. Yep, for this specific workflow, we're on the hook to provide a test plan of things that have to work in anything that we call Fedora, and then deputize the Spin SIG to actually execute the plan and maintain it on an ongoing basis. Sorry for any misunderstanding! -Jon From gdk at redhat.com Wed Apr 2 21:03:56 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 17:03:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora TV, the video quandary, and a request for advice (fwd) Message-ID: Hi. It's time to talk about Fedora and video. As many of you know, we tried to start the "Fedora TV" project last fall in association with the nice folks at Lulu.tv. Unfortunately, between December 1st and January 31st, Lulu.tv went from a team of 4 engineers excited about Fedora as a test case for their technology, to one engineer trying desperately to hold things together, to out of business. Which means that "Fedora TV," in its current incarnation, is deader than Elvis. I'll be working to pull the domain away from the current abandonware site in the next few days. The original goal of Fedora TV was to provide a "Fedora-friendly" home for videos that we had some control over. I think this is still a worthwhile strategic goal, but since we no longer have the help of dedicated engineers, I no longer think it's a sensible tactical goal. The question that follows: "we've got lots of people who are excited about making Fedora videos. What's the best way, in the short term, to gather those videos together to make them accessible?" People are already using whatever solutions are available to them -- YouTube, archive.org, blip.tv, and so forth. Maybe we can leverage some of these solutions to create a comprehensive "Fedora-approved" solution. If we choose to go this route, there are, in my view, a number of criteria. First, a couple of criteria that any solution *must* meet: 1. There must be a way to view these videos in Ogg Theora. This is perhaps the most difficult requirement, but also the most important. If we force Fedora users to download proprietary software to view Fedora videos, we lose. 2. There must be a one-click download of each video from *somewhere*. A torrent tracker seems like a good idea and a way to conserve server space, but in practice, people ignore these videos. 3. The "one-click download" implies that there must be a centralized *and robust* hosting environment for these videos. We should have confidence that any such hosting environment isn't likely to "go away" -- the trap we fell into with Lulu.tv. There are also, in my view, a few criteria that we *should* meet: 4. Users should be able to easily specify licensing of the videos. 5. It must be easy to let the Fedora community know when new videos are available, whether through RSS, some screenscraping app, or other means. An aggregated feed like "videos.fedoraproject.org" might be ideal. 6. It would be great to get a static screenshot of these videos to display in blog posts and so forth. Finally, there is one controversial criteria that I believe we should consider: 7. While we continue to privilege Ogg Theora as the primary codec, we should also transcode these videos to Flash to reach the broadest possible audience. What solutions seem to meet these guidelines? It seems like we've got a number of options. I'll go through them. a. archive.org. Solves almost all of these criteria, and we have a strong affinity with their mission of building a digital commons -- but their infrastructure has been *very* flaky lately, and is turning into a bit of a dumping ground. Their RSS feeds and search both seem to be pretty broken on a pretty regular basis. b. blip.tv. They support Ogg Theora as an upload format, but I was unable to get Ogg Theora to *download* properly -- I keep requesting the Theora file and getting the Flash transcoded file instead. Maybe someone can figure out how to make this work. c. Roll our own. This will take clueful engineers, but there are a lot of options. Vaniv, the Wordpress fork that spun out of Lulu.tv, is one. Plumi, a plug-in for Plone, is another. Mv_Embed, a plug-in for MediaWiki, is a third. I'm sure there are others. The big downside here is that Fedora Infrastructure already has plenty of stuff to keep track of, and managing a video content site is a pretty big chunk of work. d. Miro. Maybe this is the way to go. It's packaged in Fedora, so maybe it's worth having a handful of people set up a Miro channel and seed the content. We could use some server space in fp.o as seed space, I would think. I have yet to play with Miro personally, though. The simplest thing is to tell Fedora video contributors to contribute to archive.org, set up an RSS filter to pull Fedora-themed videos from the oft-broken archive.org RSS feed, and let the chips fall where they may -- but I don't know if that's the *best* answer. But we need *some* answer, and we need it soon. Advice welcome. --g -- Greg DeKoenigsberg Community Development Manager Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255 "To whomsoever much hath been given... ...from him much shall be asked" From luis at tieguy.org Wed Apr 2 21:23:43 2008 From: luis at tieguy.org (Luis Villa) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 17:23:43 -0400 Subject: Fedora TV, the video quandary, and a request for advice (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2cb10c440804021423v48d1a83bubfa77f3f8a8c065c@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 5:03 PM, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > 3. The "one-click download" implies that there must be a centralized *and > robust* hosting environment for these videos. We should have confidence > that any such hosting environment isn't likely to "go away" -- the trap we > fell into with Lulu.tv. Unless you're using one of the super-established providers (archive, youtube, etc.) or roll your own, you can't really get this level of certainty (as you found out at lulu.tv.) You might look at http://www.getmiro.com/create/ - miro has publishing tools; not sure how open they are (nor whether they handle transcoding or web presentation by default.) > 5. It must be easy to let the Fedora community know when new videos are > available, whether through RSS, some screenscraping app, or other means. An > aggregated feed like "videos.fedoraproject.org" might be ideal. Miro handles this pretty darn well. > b. blip.tv. They support Ogg Theora as an upload format, but I was unable > to get Ogg Theora to *download* properly -- I keep requesting the Theora > file and getting the Flash transcoded file instead. Maybe someone can > figure out how to make this work. I can't even see where it is offered, which is a shame. > d. Miro. Maybe this is the way to go. It's packaged in Fedora, so maybe > it's worth having a handful of people set up a Miro channel and seed the > content. We could use some server space in fp.o as seed space, I would > think. I have yet to play with Miro personally, though. Note that last time I tried to install Miro on Fedora, it was broken; all the default videos are in non-free codecs so Miro itself ran but no video worked (and I seem to recall it failed badly.) Have not tried it of late, though. Luis From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 21:23:37 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 13:23:37 -0800 Subject: Fedora TV, the video quandary, and a request for advice (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <604aa7910804021423q29cb7e15n2cec25f1b1a33035@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 1:03 PM, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > a. archive.org. Solves almost all of these criteria, and we have a strong > affinity with their mission of building a digital commons -- but their > infrastructure has been *very* flaky lately, and is turning into a bit of a > dumping ground. Their RSS feeds and search both seem to be pretty broken on > a pretty regular basis. > I agree.. If archive.org worked....it would be great. I've had trouble using it. But perhaps there is a conversation here that needs to be had with them concerning why its busted. Can we help 'fix' it? > c. Roll our own. This will take clueful engineers, but there are a lot of > options. Vaniv, the Wordpress fork that spun out of Lulu.tv, is one. Plumi, > a plug-in for Plone, is another. Mv_Embed, a plug-in for MediaWiki, is a > third. I'm sure there are others. The big downside here is that Fedora > Infrastructure already has plenty of stuff to keep track of, and managing a > video content site is a pretty big chunk of work. > Can mediawiki scale for this? > > d. Miro. Maybe this is the way to go. It's packaged in Fedora, so maybe > it's worth having a handful of people set up a Miro channel and seed the > content. We could use some server space in fp.o as seed space, I would > think. I have yet to play with Miro personally, though. > We should absolutely be leveraging Miro as a client interface. AB-SO-FRELLING-LUTELY There are other applications in the space as well...for example little old gpodder that could use a default fedora feed. I'm pretty sure that the maintainer of the gpodder package would look at including a default channel definition for fedora videos :-> But the question is how do we go about populating a channel for miro and friends? Its just an rss feed right? And are there any submarine trademarking issues here that would prevent us from including our own Fedora channel in the miro defaults as we ship it? > > The simplest thing is to tell Fedora video contributors to contribute to > archive.org, set up an RSS filter to pull Fedora-themed videos from the > oft-broken archive.org RSS feed, and let the chips fall where they may -- > but I don't know if that's the *best* answer. > Do we have any other options on the table for self hosting our own video RSS aimed at populating a miro channel? Can we for example run a project out of fedorahosted that has enough space for to manage a theora video rss feed for miro? We could easily slap a Video SIG together, layout the ground rules for submitting content, select a few managing editors to control the RSS feed, and get the ball rolling. But lets face it video requires relatively bloated hosting space... worse than OO.org's codebase. Without a hosting commitment we aren't gonna get very far...even with low quality theora vids of my cat. -jef -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 21:33:04 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 13:33:04 -0800 Subject: Fedora TV, the video quandary, and a request for advice (fwd) In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440804021423v48d1a83bubfa77f3f8a8c065c@mail.gmail.com> References: <2cb10c440804021423v48d1a83bubfa77f3f8a8c065c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910804021433h2a210736te5a2ff11b9145b46@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 1:23 PM, Luis Villa wrote: > Note that last time I tried to install Miro on Fedora, it was broken; > all the default videos are in non-free codecs so Miro itself ran but > no video worked (and I seem to recall it failed badly.) Have not tried > it of late, though. > of course all the non-default videos are in non-free codecs... major publishers aren't using free codecs. So its a classic chicken and egg problem. We have to pretend we are an open technology version of Sony and create demand for our open technology by getting out and front and producing our own content or paying for the production of content that uses the technology we are pushing. We've no hope of making things better unless the people who care about openly encoded a/v get out ahead and start producing content showcasing the tech. -jef"pitivi for the win"spaleta -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gdk at redhat.com Wed Apr 2 21:35:35 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 17:35:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora TV, the video quandary, and a request for advice (fwd) In-Reply-To: <604aa7910804021423q29cb7e15n2cec25f1b1a33035@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910804021423q29cb7e15n2cec25f1b1a33035@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Apr 2008, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 1:03 PM, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > >> a. archive.org. Solves almost all of these criteria, and we have a strong >> affinity with their mission of building a digital commons -- but their >> infrastructure has been *very* flaky lately, and is turning into a bit of a >> dumping ground. Their RSS feeds and search both seem to be pretty broken on >> a pretty regular basis. > > I agree.. If archive.org worked....it would be great. I've had trouble using > it. But perhaps there is a conversation here that needs to be had with them > concerning why its busted. Can we help 'fix' it? If I could get someone from archive.org to return my emails. Maybe someone else could have better luck? >> c. Roll our own. This will take clueful engineers, but there are a lot of >> options. Vaniv, the Wordpress fork that spun out of Lulu.tv, is one. Plumi, >> a plug-in for Plone, is another. Mv_Embed, a plug-in for MediaWiki, is a >> third. I'm sure there are others. The big downside here is that Fedora >> Infrastructure already has plenty of stuff to keep track of, and managing a >> video content site is a pretty big chunk of work. >> > Can mediawiki scale for this? I don't know enough about its design to say. *Any* self-hosting operation is going to require a *ton* of space, though. >> d. Miro. Maybe this is the way to go. It's packaged in Fedora, so maybe >> it's worth having a handful of people set up a Miro channel and seed the >> content. We could use some server space in fp.o as seed space, I would >> think. I have yet to play with Miro personally, though. > > We should absolutely be leveraging Miro as a client interface. > AB-SO-FRELLING-LUTELY > There are other applications in the space as well...for example little old > gpodder that could use a default fedora feed. I'm pretty sure that the > maintainer of the gpodder package would look at including a default channel > definition for fedora videos :-> > > But the question is how do we go about populating a channel for miro and > friends? Its just an rss feed right? And are there any submarine > trademarking issues here that would prevent us from including our own Fedora > channel in the miro defaults as we ship it? So help me understand, someone who uses Miro: Does Miro actually make use of BitTorrent to *distribute* video, or does it just figure out how to download *from* BitTorrent? Something that combines RSS and BitTorrent seems potentially awesome -- but frankly, I'm still not sure how Miro works. >> The simplest thing is to tell Fedora video contributors to contribute to >> archive.org, set up an RSS filter to pull Fedora-themed videos from the >> oft-broken archive.org RSS feed, and let the chips fall where they may -- >> but I don't know if that's the *best* answer. > > Do we have any other options on the table for self hosting our own video > RSS aimed at populating a miro channel? Can we for example run a > project out of fedorahosted that has enough space for to manage a theora > video rss feed for miro? We could easily slap a Video SIG together, > layout the ground rules for submitting content, select a few managing > editors to control the RSS feed, and get the ball rolling. But lets > face it video requires relatively bloated hosting space... worse than > OO.org's codebase. Without a hosting commitment we aren't gonna get > very far...even with low quality theora vids of my cat. Yep. This continues to be the biggest problem, and one of the reasons I went with Lulu.tv in the first place. Aside from archive.org, I don't have any easy answers. --g -- Greg DeKoenigsberg Community Development Manager Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255 "To whomsoever much hath been given... ...from him much shall be asked" From gdk at redhat.com Wed Apr 2 21:40:50 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 17:40:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora TV, the video quandary, and a request for advice (fwd) In-Reply-To: <604aa7910804021433h2a210736te5a2ff11b9145b46@mail.gmail.com> References: <2cb10c440804021423v48d1a83bubfa77f3f8a8c065c@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910804021433h2a210736te5a2ff11b9145b46@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Apr 2008, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 1:23 PM, Luis Villa wrote: > >> Note that last time I tried to install Miro on Fedora, it was broken; >> all the default videos are in non-free codecs so Miro itself ran but >> no video worked (and I seem to recall it failed badly.) Have not tried >> it of late, though. >> > > of course all the non-default videos are in non-free codecs... major > publishers aren't using free codecs. So its a classic chicken and egg > problem. We have to pretend we are an open technology version of Sony and > create demand for our open technology by getting out and front and producing > our own content or paying for the production of content that uses the > technology we are pushing. We've no hope of making things better unless the > people who care about openly encoded a/v get out ahead and start producing > content showcasing the tech. /me wonders if we should be building something like Mininova for Ogm-only content... http://www.mininova.org --g -- Greg DeKoenigsberg Community Development Manager Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255 "To whomsoever much hath been given... ...from him much shall be asked" From luis at tieguy.org Wed Apr 2 21:46:55 2008 From: luis at tieguy.org (Luis Villa) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 17:46:55 -0400 Subject: Fedora TV, the video quandary, and a request for advice (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: <604aa7910804021423q29cb7e15n2cec25f1b1a33035@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2cb10c440804021446t6ffd5068p157c7a12f974b3c6@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 5:35 PM, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > So help me understand, someone who uses Miro: > > Does Miro actually make use of BitTorrent to *distribute* video, or does it > just figure out how to download *from* BitTorrent? > > Something that combines RSS and BitTorrent seems potentially awesome -- but > frankly, I'm still not sure how Miro works. As I understand it, the miro RSS feed contains torrent:// links where the average RSS feed contains http://. So each client is getting notified of new episodes via rss, and then pulling those episodes via torrent. Makes it hard to use any client other than miro with the content, unfortunately. I've cc'd Chris Lahey, who I hope can clarify/correct me (he's with Miro, ex-Ximian, still rocking. And apparently curling?) Luis From luis at tieguy.org Wed Apr 2 21:51:57 2008 From: luis at tieguy.org (Luis Villa) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 17:51:57 -0400 Subject: Fedora TV, the video quandary, and a request for advice (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: <604aa7910804021423q29cb7e15n2cec25f1b1a33035@mail.gmail.com> <2cb10c440804021446t6ffd5068p157c7a12f974b3c6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2cb10c440804021451tb973e42j7adcb9792578698c@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 5:49 PM, Chris Lahey wrote: > Yes, I'm a curler now. Still a beginner, but I'm working on it. Cool. > There's actually a number of clients that support RSS with bittorrent > links. In particular, most bittorrent apps. We just concentrate on > making a nicer UI for it. > > And it's not a special URL. It's an http url that links to a .torrent file. Ah, cool. Thanks for the feedback, Chris. Luis P.S. I should have mentioned that Fedora is looking for a video solution, hence this question; I'll forward you the whole original post off-list in case you're interested. From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 21:58:21 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 13:58:21 -0800 Subject: Fedora TV, the video quandary, and a request for advice (fwd) In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440804021451tb973e42j7adcb9792578698c@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910804021423q29cb7e15n2cec25f1b1a33035@mail.gmail.com> <2cb10c440804021446t6ffd5068p157c7a12f974b3c6@mail.gmail.com> <2cb10c440804021451tb973e42j7adcb9792578698c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910804021458v3d00a360ne0cffde3e90d3cf1@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 1:51 PM, Luis Villa wrote: > On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 5:49 PM, Chris Lahey wrote: > > Yes, I'm a curler now. Still a beginner, but I'm working on it. He's a curler!!!!!!!!!!!!! -jef From mmcgrath at redhat.com Wed Apr 2 21:54:18 2008 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 16:54:18 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Fedora TV, the video quandary, and a request for advice (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: <604aa7910804021423q29cb7e15n2cec25f1b1a33035@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Apr 2008, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > I don't know enough about its design to say. *Any* self-hosting operation is > going to require a *ton* of space, though. > How much? -Mike From ivazqueznet at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 22:03:28 2008 From: ivazqueznet at gmail.com (Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams) Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 18:03:28 -0400 Subject: Fedora TV, the video quandary, and a request for advice (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: <2cb10c440804021423v48d1a83bubfa77f3f8a8c065c@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910804021433h2a210736te5a2ff11b9145b46@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1207173808.14663.8.camel@ignacio.lan> On Wed, 2008-04-02 at 17:40 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > /me wonders if we should be building something like Mininova for Ogm-only > content... OGV perhaps. OGM usually implies MPEG-in-Ogg. -- Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams PLEASE don't CC me; I'm already subscribed -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 22:04:07 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 14:04:07 -0800 Subject: Fedora TV, the video quandary, and a request for advice (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: <604aa7910804021423q29cb7e15n2cec25f1b1a33035@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910804021504r47b7c0b8x1cc42de078493e30@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 1:54 PM, Mike McGrath wrote: > On Wed, 2 Apr 2008, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > > > I don't know enough about its design to say. *Any* self-hosting operation is > > going to require a *ton* of space, though. > > > > How much? Just to give you an idea... my 2 minute curling video that I made.. is 500 megs of uncompressed dv and its down to 6 megs as a theora video when editted down with pitivi. -jef From smooge at gmail.com Thu Apr 3 00:04:17 2008 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 18:04:17 -0600 Subject: Fedora TV, the video quandary, and a request for advice (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <80d7e4090804021704u426bafedpb519426c1784ef@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 3:03 PM, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > Hi. It's time to talk about Fedora and video. > > As many of you know, we tried to start the "Fedora TV" project last fall in > association with the nice folks at Lulu.tv. Unfortunately, between December > 1st and January 31st, Lulu.tv went from a team of 4 engineers excited about > Fedora as a test case for their technology, to one engineer trying > desperately to hold things together, to out of business. Which means that > "Fedora TV," in its current incarnation, is deader than Elvis. I'll be > working to pull the domain away from the current abandonware site in the > next few days. > > The original goal of Fedora TV was to provide a "Fedora-friendly" home for > videos that we had some control over. I think this is still a worthwhile > strategic goal, but since we no longer have the help of dedicated engineers, > I no longer think it's a sensible tactical goal. > > The question that follows: "we've got lots of people who are excited about > making Fedora videos. What's the best way, in the short term, to gather > those videos together to make them accessible?" > > People are already using whatever solutions are available to them -- > YouTube, archive.org, blip.tv, and so forth. Maybe we can leverage some of > these solutions to create a comprehensive "Fedora-approved" solution. If we > choose to go this route, there are, in my view, a number of criteria. > > First, a couple of criteria that any solution *must* meet: > > 1. There must be a way to view these videos in Ogg Theora. This is perhaps > the most difficult requirement, but also the most important. If we force > Fedora users to download proprietary software to view Fedora videos, we > lose. > > 2. There must be a one-click download of each video from *somewhere*. A > torrent tracker seems like a good idea and a way to conserve server space, > but in practice, people ignore these videos. > >From the various emails I see on campus and lists, videos on file-sharing get blocked more because its easier to block stuff than deal with the various lawsuits. I think various blockers just look for 'video' content (mpeg, theora,etc) in a torrent and then just fin=fin the connections. > 3. The "one-click download" implies that there must be a centralized *and > robust* hosting environment for these videos. We should have confidence > that any such hosting environment isn't likely to "go away" -- the trap we > fell into with Lulu.tv. > That is the most expensive part of the deal. Contrary to the professor complaining about his storage fees.. disks and network are not cheap. Not if you want reliability. The first thought that came to mind was to see if the Fedora Mirrors would be a useful area. Building a structure that mirrors could take the 'content into the cloud' (dear god, if I used that catch phrase correctly, smite me now). > There are also, in my view, a few criteria that we *should* meet: > > 4. Users should be able to easily specify licensing of the videos. > What licenses would we use? What ones would be verbotten? Do we have a screening process before the videos go up to make sure that they are related to Fedora and not someone trying to use it as a gnu porn upload site? And from watching the daily MPAA/RIAA etc letters to the University.. what is the legal group that gets these subpoenas and evidence preservation? Especially when someone puts up a 20 minute cut from BladeRunner with some "commentary" to try and say it is a reasonable quote on how Free Software should work. (Or they use a 20 second cut and the MPAA still sends a takedown notice/subpeona/DMCA/ etc.) And whether or not a 2 second music excerpt is allowed under copyright law.. who gets stuck with the lawyers bill dealing with the lawsuit from whoever currently 'owns' BabyGotBack. Hopefully these are things that can be said "duh" about.. but it would be something that would make mirrors more available if they didn't have to worry about the legal lawsuit for aiding and abetting (or whatever gets MPAA lawyers salivating). The issue I see with Archive.org is that they must be dieing under network/storage bills these days. The amount of movie and music I see streaming to our university is pretty high. My guess is that the flakiness is that they are having to pair back what they can offer because the costs are going up... or what links they do have are saturated and they are not in a position to upscale. -- Stephen J Smoogen. -- CSIRT/Linux System Administrator How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice" From clahey at clahey.net Wed Apr 2 21:49:50 2008 From: clahey at clahey.net (Chris Lahey) Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 17:49:50 -0400 Subject: Fedora TV, the video quandary, and a request for advice (fwd) In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440804021446t6ffd5068p157c7a12f974b3c6@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910804021423q29cb7e15n2cec25f1b1a33035@mail.gmail.com> <2cb10c440804021446t6ffd5068p157c7a12f974b3c6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, I'm a curler now. Still a beginner, but I'm working on it. There's actually a number of clients that support RSS with bittorrent links. In particular, most bittorrent apps. We just concentrate on making a nicer UI for it. And it's not a special URL. It's an http url that links to a .torrent file. ttyl, Chris On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 5:46 PM, Luis Villa wrote: > On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 5:35 PM, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > So help me understand, someone who uses Miro: > > > > Does Miro actually make use of BitTorrent to *distribute* video, or does it > > just figure out how to download *from* BitTorrent? > > > > Something that combines RSS and BitTorrent seems potentially awesome -- but > > frankly, I'm still not sure how Miro works. > > As I understand it, the miro RSS feed contains torrent:// links where > the average RSS feed contains http://. So each client is getting > notified of new episodes via rss, and then pulling those episodes via > torrent. Makes it hard to use any client other than miro with the > content, unfortunately. > > I've cc'd Chris Lahey, who I hope can clarify/correct me (he's with > Miro, ex-Ximian, still rocking. And apparently curling?) > > Luis > From wwoods at redhat.com Thu Apr 3 15:44:02 2008 From: wwoods at redhat.com (Will Woods) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2008 11:44:02 -0400 Subject: Spins proposals In-Reply-To: <604aa7910804021006r1862c112vd7be48543d28e4b3@mail.gmail.com> References: <1206969809.3801.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47F3A916.1020208@fedoraproject.org> <604aa7910804021006r1862c112vd7be48543d28e4b3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1207237442.14362.41.camel@metroid.rdu.redhat.com> On Wed, 2008-04-02 at 09:06 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > * Fedora QA is tasked with testing all the release spins. > Nominally being part of that team, I don't think QA has the > resources (ie) enough people involved considering that we have > a six month release cycle and lots of bugs to deal with > > How QA gets the testing done is QA's perview. But the tasking is most > certaintly correctly scoped. > > I will be blunt. I think we've had a significant problem with the QA > process for multiple releases now. We must find a way to organize > volunteer labor better with regard to QA..generally. And here we have a beautifully ironic illustration of the real problem with QA: It took me a day to respond to this email because I was too busy: - running the QA meeting, - triaging the F9Blocker/F9Tracker lists, - retesting bugs that should be fixed, - testing upgrades from F8, - testing fixed builds for problems in rawhide, and - filing bug reports for new problems found. Get it? I'm too busy *doing* QA to *improve* QA. I'm too understaffed to work on staffing up. Chicken, meet egg. Now. If you'd care to expand on *your* thoughts on the problems with the QA Process, I'm all ears. > If QA wants to officially get on the record as saying they aren't > going to take the responsibility of testing the composed images that > RelEng has selected and working on as part of a release cycle... then > by all means get on the record....as a group put your foot down in > protest...so I can come in with my riot gear and tear gas and bust > some skulls. Seriously? That's how we're going to start the discussion? You're gonna bust my head in unless I agree to take on *more* work when the entire problem with QA is that I'm *already* too overworked to do anything? Something is not quite right here. > Or QA as a group try to get involved with the formation of the Spin > SIG and make sure they are well prepared to do a significant amount of > the QA as part of Kickstart Pool management. Getting involved in the Spin SIG: yes. Kickstart Pool management: Also yes. Doing QA for every spin produced: Very no. Here's how it's gonna happen: QA will provide the same plans, guidelines, and tools that we use for Fedora now, and we'll provide advice on using and improving them. But *the spins are responsible for performing their own testing*. QA already provides these things for the standard releases: Release guidelines http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/ReleaseCriteria A detailed installation test plan.. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/TestPlans/Fedora9Install ..composed of dozens of individual test cases.. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/TestCases ..along with templates for creating new test cases and test plans. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/TestCases/TestCaseTemplate http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/TestPlans/TestPlanTemplate And a test summary page where we track our testing results. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/TestResults/TestSummaryTemplate For each release, we triage bugs according to the ReleaseCriteria, update the installation test cases to reflect new features, execute the installation test cases, and track and report results. The owners of each spin should be responsible for: - Maintaining spin-specific ReleaseCriteria or TestCases, if needed - Tracking spin-specific bugs, - Executing test plans for their spin, and - Tracking the results thereof. Now - I'm not saying they have to do all the same work. The spin owners can definitely *choose* to skip some testing, if they like. And I want to avoid duplicate work - it's perfectly fine to assume that if raid1-root works in the normal Fedora spin, it probably works in the Electronics Lab spin as well. And, really, all I'm asking is that each spin spend some time doing QA on their stuff. It helps the overall test effort by making more official "QA People", spreading the test load over all the spins, and will create new test cases. And hopefully this will drive an effort to improve the tools for managing and tracking test plans and execution. But this is the important thing: THE SPIN OWNERS ARE ULTIMATELY RESPONSIBLE FOR GETTING THEIR SPIN TESTED. You can find your own QA guys, you can do the testing yourself, whatever. But the current QA team is already far, far too busy to actually sit down and test all the bits we produce *now*. We cannot - and will not - test *new* spins that are dropped in our laps, so long as that would take time away from testing Fedora proper. This will probably remain the case until such time as we've managed to build the robust automated testing infrastructure that Fedora deserves. > The Spin SIG may very well find that its in their mutual best interest > in getting involved more directly in the QA process..even before a > spin has been selected for release. And it very well maybe in QA's > best interest to find a way to guide the Spin SIGs involvement in > post-release testing as well. But that's a conversation for the Spin > SIG and QA to have at some point between now and the start of the F10 > release cycle. Oh, definitely. I have a feeling the Spin SIG and QA and the Kickstart Pool will all be very chummy in the near future. Until then, though, we've got a release to work on. -w -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From smooge at gmail.com Thu Apr 3 16:17:37 2008 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 10:17:37 -0600 Subject: Spins proposals In-Reply-To: <1207237442.14362.41.camel@metroid.rdu.redhat.com> References: <1206969809.3801.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47F3A916.1020208@fedoraproject.org> <604aa7910804021006r1862c112vd7be48543d28e4b3@mail.gmail.com> <1207237442.14362.41.camel@metroid.rdu.redhat.com> Message-ID: <80d7e4090804030917u16559cc2p74749540149b71d4@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 9:44 AM, Will Woods wrote: > On Wed, 2008-04-02 at 09:06 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > > * Fedora QA is tasked with testing all the release spins. > > Nominally being part of that team, I don't think QA has the > > resources (ie) enough people involved considering that we have > > a six month release cycle and lots of bugs to deal with > > > > How QA gets the testing done is QA's perview. But the tasking is most > > certaintly correctly scoped. > > > > I will be blunt. I think we've had a significant problem with the QA > > process for multiple releases now. We must find a way to organize > > volunteer labor better with regard to QA..generally. > > And here we have a beautifully ironic illustration of the real problem > with QA: > > It took me a day to respond to this email because I was too busy: > - running the QA meeting, > - triaging the F9Blocker/F9Tracker lists, > - retesting bugs that should be fixed, > - testing upgrades from F8, > - testing fixed builds for problems in rawhide, and > - filing bug reports for new problems found. > > Get it? I'm too busy *doing* QA to *improve* QA. I'm too understaffed to > work on staffing up. Chicken, meet egg. > > Now. If you'd care to expand on *your* thoughts on the problems with the > QA Process, I'm all ears. > > Long but important rant shortened... my views are the following: 1) QA is understaffed. While QA is always understaffed, it is currently at Wanger levels of understaffed... the paid for QA people are not able to think straight because they are always behind, always getting more work, and deadlines are always there. Throwing more people at this point won't help unless you are going to say its ok for the current QA people to stop what they are doing and work on improving things. 2) Release times for QA are always stressful because every not found bug is their fault, and every found bug that delays things are their fault. And at a certain point the stress is so high that even helping hands look like more whips. [Just like a starving dog will bite a rescuer's hand...] 3) QA only seems to get a focus at the worst times... when things are hitting the fan. You want to improve QA, do it when there isn't a release. The only times I have seen QA improve at companies is when someone high enough says "This shit is not going to go on any more." and people are beaten out of the habit of viewing QA as something that comes at the end of a project. And its a beating that has to happen quite a bit because well.. we always have something on our mind that is more important (like getting a build system, a package, etc done) 4) If you are not seeing your QA people at meetings, at gatherings, doing their weekly blog etc.. you need to stop whatever you think is currently more important than QA and figure out where things are broken. Otherwise you might as well just get rid of QA because they are only being viewed as an expense at that point. Grumpy old man smooge will now shut-up. -- Stephen J Smoogen. -- CSIRT/Linux System Administrator How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice" From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Apr 3 16:19:48 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 08:19:48 -0800 Subject: Spins proposals In-Reply-To: <1207237442.14362.41.camel@metroid.rdu.redhat.com> References: <1206969809.3801.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47F3A916.1020208@fedoraproject.org> <604aa7910804021006r1862c112vd7be48543d28e4b3@mail.gmail.com> <1207237442.14362.41.camel@metroid.rdu.redhat.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910804030919m17c99f6bt97f0e3ccec6a93c2@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 7:44 AM, Will Woods wrote: > Seriously? That's how we're going to start the discussion? You're gonna > bust my head in unless I agree to take on *more* work when the entire > problem with QA is that I'm *already* too overworked to do anything? > > Something is not quite right here. I didn't say who's particular skull was at risk. I go out and wade the the sea of uncontributing community and pound on them if need be. If I had the ear of the CEO. I'd pound on him if I thought it would help. But there is a problem here and I'm not afraid to look directly into other people's brains in an effort to divine a solution. And now that you are on record concerning being too overwhelmed to the build where you can't build a QA community, then you've given the Board a reason to get involved in figuring out how to unbreak what's going wrong. Here's the deal, I firmly believe that the Board shouldn't micromanage a particular subgroup, even if that group isn't performing 'optimally', whatever that means. The group has to escalate to the Board and demand that we get involved in their internal process. > Here's how it's gonna happen: QA will provide the same plans, > guidelines, and tools that we use for Fedora now, and we'll provide > advice on using and improving them. But *the spins are responsible for > performing their own testing*. I'm fine with that. I'm fine with QA deciding to re-task testing, because the decisions on what the how/who/when/where's for testing is fundamentally a part of QA's role. I do not want to have the Board setup frameworks that reach in and tell a group how they are going to do things unnecessarily. > And, really, all I'm asking is that each spin spend some time doing QA > on their stuff. You can be stronger than that... you could 'demand' it. When the Spin SIG brings a spin to the Board for trademark approval, if they haven't made any effort to run through a set of predefined tests as part of the technical review, I'll be cracking their skulls. But the Board will most likely ask QA to rubber stamp whatever testing process the Spin SIG sets up as part of the technical review leading up to trademark approval. -jef From gdk at redhat.com Thu Apr 3 17:01:45 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 13:01:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora TV, the video quandary, and a request for advice (fwd) In-Reply-To: <604aa7910804021504r47b7c0b8x1cc42de078493e30@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910804021423q29cb7e15n2cec25f1b1a33035@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910804021504r47b7c0b8x1cc42de078493e30@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Apr 2008, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > Just to give you an idea... my 2 minute curling video that I made.. is > 500 megs of uncompressed dv and its down to 6 megs as a theora video > when editted down with pitivi. We can compe up with some arbitrary numbers and see how they scale in practice. Let's say 3-5 meg per minute of footage -- a terabyte gives us many, many hours. The real question is, how much bandwidth would that consume if a video got super-popular? --g -- Greg DeKoenigsberg Community Development Manager Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255 "To whomsoever much hath been given... ...from him much shall be asked" From tcallawa at redhat.com Thu Apr 3 17:04:50 2008 From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom "spot" Callaway) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2008 13:04:50 -0400 Subject: Spins proposals In-Reply-To: <80d7e4090804030917u16559cc2p74749540149b71d4@mail.gmail.com> References: <1206969809.3801.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47F3A916.1020208@fedoraproject.org> <604aa7910804021006r1862c112vd7be48543d28e4b3@mail.gmail.com> <1207237442.14362.41.camel@metroid.rdu.redhat.com> <80d7e4090804030917u16559cc2p74749540149b71d4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1207242290.3041.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2008-04-03 at 10:17 -0600, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > Grumpy old man smooge will now shut-up. I wonder whether more than a handful of folks will catch most of those Red Hat Ancient History lessons. :/ ~spot From gdk at redhat.com Thu Apr 3 17:06:10 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 13:06:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora TV, the video quandary, and a request for advice (fwd) In-Reply-To: <80d7e4090804021704u426bafedpb519426c1784ef@mail.gmail.com> References: <80d7e4090804021704u426bafedpb519426c1784ef@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Apr 2008, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: >> 4. Users should be able to easily specify licensing of the videos. > > What licenses would we use? What ones would be verbotten? This is a simple policy question. We *will* want "open video" -- that much we know. Licensing will come later. > Do we have a screening process before the videos go up to make sure > that they are related to Fedora and not someone trying to use it as a > gnu porn upload site? I think we'll have to if we do our own storage. Vaniv had a mechanism for this, which wasn't great, but it was okay. In the long run, I foresee a SIG of video folks helping with this. > And from watching the daily MPAA/RIAA etc letters to the University.. > what is the legal group that gets these subpoenas and evidence > preservation? Especially when someone puts up a 20 minute cut from > BladeRunner with some "commentary" to try and say it is a reasonable > quote on how Free Software should work. (Or they use a 20 second cut > and the MPAA still sends a takedown notice/subpeona/DMCA/ etc.) And > whether or not a 2 second music excerpt is allowed under copyright > law.. who gets stuck with the lawyers bill dealing with the lawsuit > from whoever currently 'owns' BabyGotBack. And this is why human filters will be required. The nice thing: even if we are *very* successful, I think we'll be looking at a limited amount of content. If the problem is that the filterers are moving too slowly because we've got too much content, that's a good problem to have. > Hopefully these are things that can be said "duh" about.. but it would > be something that would make mirrors more available if they didn't > have to worry about the legal lawsuit for aiding and abetting (or > whatever gets MPAA lawyers salivating). Well, then, maybe the mirrors idea is worth pursuing. > The issue I see with Archive.org is that they must be dieing under > network/storage bills these days. The amount of movie and music I see > streaming to our university is pretty high. My guess is that the > flakiness is that they are having to pair back what they can offer > because the costs are going up... or what links they do have are > saturated and they are not in a position to upscale. Yeah. That's my take too. I only wish I could get into a conversation with them about it. --g -- Greg DeKoenigsberg Community Development Manager Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255 "To whomsoever much hath been given... ...from him much shall be asked" From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Thu Apr 3 17:06:10 2008 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (seth vidal) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2008 13:06:10 -0400 Subject: Fedora TV, the video quandary, and a request for advice (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: <604aa7910804021423q29cb7e15n2cec25f1b1a33035@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910804021504r47b7c0b8x1cc42de078493e30@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1207242370.15651.97.camel@cutter> On Thu, 2008-04-03 at 13:01 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > On Wed, 2 Apr 2008, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > > Just to give you an idea... my 2 minute curling video that I made.. is > > 500 megs of uncompressed dv and its down to 6 megs as a theora video > > when editted down with pitivi. > > We can compe up with some arbitrary numbers and see how they scale in > practice. Let's say 3-5 meg per minute of footage -- a terabyte gives us > many, many hours. it gives us 3333 hours. (more or less) > The real question is, how much bandwidth would that > consume if a video got super-popular? all of it. -sv From blizzard at 0xdeadbeef.com Thu Apr 3 17:42:58 2008 From: blizzard at 0xdeadbeef.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 13:42:58 -0400 Subject: Fedora TV, the video quandary, and a request for advice (fwd) In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440804021423v48d1a83bubfa77f3f8a8c065c@mail.gmail.com> References: <2cb10c440804021423v48d1a83bubfa77f3f8a8c065c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <99DE3408-B0EB-4E3E-99ED-DB4A5B8732E7@0xdeadbeef.com> On Apr 2, 2008, at 5:23 PM, Luis Villa wrote: >> d. Miro. Maybe this is the way to go. It's packaged in Fedora, so >> maybe >> it's worth having a handful of people set up a Miro channel and >> seed the >> content. We could use some server space in fp.o as seed space, I >> would >> think. I have yet to play with Miro personally, though. > > Note that last time I tried to install Miro on Fedora, it was broken; > all the default videos are in non-free codecs so Miro itself ran but > no video worked (and I seem to recall it failed badly.) Have not tried > it of late, though. They are just now adding gstreamer support. That will help at least with some of that. --Chris From blizzard at 0xdeadbeef.com Thu Apr 3 17:43:48 2008 From: blizzard at 0xdeadbeef.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 13:43:48 -0400 Subject: Fedora TV, the video quandary, and a request for advice (fwd) In-Reply-To: <604aa7910804021423q29cb7e15n2cec25f1b1a33035@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910804021423q29cb7e15n2cec25f1b1a33035@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <726BC716-8DBF-4F02-8D9F-080F3D253D3E@0xdeadbeef.com> On Apr 2, 2008, at 5:23 PM, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > Do we have any other options on the table for self hosting our own > video RSS aimed at populating a miro channel? Can we for example > run a project out of fedorahosted that has enough space for to > manage a theora video rss feed for miro? We could easily slap a > Video SIG together, layout the ground rules for submitting content, > select a few managing editors to control the RSS feed, and get the > ball rolling. But lets face it video requires relatively bloated > hosting space... worse than OO.org's codebase. Without a hosting > commitment we aren't gonna get very far...even with low quality > theora vids of my cat. Oh, another option might be to look and see if you can do a branded Miro. That's one of the things that the are doing. i.e. Miro for free and open content or something. Fremiro? :D --Chris From blizzard at 0xdeadbeef.com Thu Apr 3 17:44:39 2008 From: blizzard at 0xdeadbeef.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 13:44:39 -0400 Subject: Fedora TV, the video quandary, and a request for advice (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: <604aa7910804021423q29cb7e15n2cec25f1b1a33035@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <415B233F-CBB3-443E-A806-BEE4CD5C134D@0xdeadbeef.com> On Apr 2, 2008, at 5:35 PM, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > Does Miro actually make use of BitTorrent to *distribute* video, or > does it just figure out how to download *from* BitTorrent? Check with willg for the right person to ask. But their goal is for distribution as well as downloading. Every Miro client is a bittorrent client. --Chris From gdk at redhat.com Thu Apr 3 17:49:49 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 13:49:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora TV, the video quandary, and a request for advice (fwd) In-Reply-To: <415B233F-CBB3-443E-A806-BEE4CD5C134D@0xdeadbeef.com> References: <604aa7910804021423q29cb7e15n2cec25f1b1a33035@mail.gmail.com> <415B233F-CBB3-443E-A806-BEE4CD5C134D@0xdeadbeef.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Apr 2008, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > On Apr 2, 2008, at 5:35 PM, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > >> Does Miro actually make use of BitTorrent to *distribute* video, or does it >> just figure out how to download *from* BitTorrent? > > Check with willg for the right person to ask. But their goal is for > distribution as well as downloading. Every Miro client is a bittorrent > client. Clearly the answer here is for me/others to get Miro running on my/y'alls systems (somehow) and see how it might work in practice. Any idea how far out gstreamer support is? --g -- Greg DeKoenigsberg Community Development Manager Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255 "To whomsoever much hath been given... ...from him much shall be asked" From blizzard at 0xdeadbeef.com Thu Apr 3 17:54:34 2008 From: blizzard at 0xdeadbeef.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 13:54:34 -0400 Subject: Fedora TV, the video quandary, and a request for advice (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: <604aa7910804021423q29cb7e15n2cec25f1b1a33035@mail.gmail.com> <415B233F-CBB3-443E-A806-BEE4CD5C134D@0xdeadbeef.com> Message-ID: <55A4BA2E-03A2-4FE7-9527-23BC60703D29@0xdeadbeef.com> On Apr 3, 2008, at 1:49 PM, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > On Thu, 3 Apr 2008, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > >> On Apr 2, 2008, at 5:35 PM, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: >> >>> Does Miro actually make use of BitTorrent to *distribute* video, >>> or does it just figure out how to download *from* BitTorrent? >> >> Check with willg for the right person to ask. But their goal is >> for distribution as well as downloading. Every Miro client is a >> bittorrent client. > > Clearly the answer here is for me/others to get Miro running on my/ > y'alls systems (somehow) and see how it might work in practice. > > Any idea how far out gstreamer support is? There are comments from Dean in my blog about it: http://www.0xdeadbeef.com/weblog/?p=346 Sounds like the code is in there and it's a pref switch. No idea how stable/good it is, though. --Chris From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Apr 3 17:57:05 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 09:57:05 -0800 Subject: Fedora TV, the video quandary, and a request for advice (fwd) In-Reply-To: <55A4BA2E-03A2-4FE7-9527-23BC60703D29@0xdeadbeef.com> References: <604aa7910804021423q29cb7e15n2cec25f1b1a33035@mail.gmail.com> <415B233F-CBB3-443E-A806-BEE4CD5C134D@0xdeadbeef.com> <55A4BA2E-03A2-4FE7-9527-23BC60703D29@0xdeadbeef.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910804031057y1fbf23b8tcd0922af13abcb0b@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 9:54 AM, Christopher Blizzard wrote: > Sounds like the code is in there and it's a pref switch. No idea how > stable/good it is, though. gst is listed as a playback option in F8's miro... gonna suck some content down and try it... too bad there isn't any existing theora content in a miro channel. -jef From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Apr 3 17:58:30 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 09:58:30 -0800 Subject: Fedora TV, the video quandary, and a request for advice (fwd) In-Reply-To: <604aa7910804031057y1fbf23b8tcd0922af13abcb0b@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910804021423q29cb7e15n2cec25f1b1a33035@mail.gmail.com> <415B233F-CBB3-443E-A806-BEE4CD5C134D@0xdeadbeef.com> <55A4BA2E-03A2-4FE7-9527-23BC60703D29@0xdeadbeef.com> <604aa7910804031057y1fbf23b8tcd0922af13abcb0b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910804031058h6a609d45o15576f9ba6808fa4@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 9:57 AM, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > gst is listed as a playback option in F8's miro... gonna suck some > content down and try it... > too bad there isn't any existing theora content in a miro channel. seems to work...i think. -jef From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Apr 3 18:00:30 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 10:00:30 -0800 Subject: Fedora TV, the video quandary, and a request for advice (fwd) In-Reply-To: <604aa7910804031058h6a609d45o15576f9ba6808fa4@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910804021423q29cb7e15n2cec25f1b1a33035@mail.gmail.com> <415B233F-CBB3-443E-A806-BEE4CD5C134D@0xdeadbeef.com> <55A4BA2E-03A2-4FE7-9527-23BC60703D29@0xdeadbeef.com> <604aa7910804031057y1fbf23b8tcd0922af13abcb0b@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910804031058h6a609d45o15576f9ba6808fa4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910804031100v288e256di13358687e10bde62@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 9:58 AM, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > seems to work...i think. gst playback works...as long as you have the correct gst bits for the codec. SOOOOOOO we would need to get our Miro changed so it defaults to gst. And we need a theora video channel in Miro. -jef From gdk at redhat.com Thu Apr 3 18:02:39 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 14:02:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora TV, the video quandary, and a request for advice (fwd) In-Reply-To: <604aa7910804031057y1fbf23b8tcd0922af13abcb0b@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910804021423q29cb7e15n2cec25f1b1a33035@mail.gmail.com> <415B233F-CBB3-443E-A806-BEE4CD5C134D@0xdeadbeef.com> <55A4BA2E-03A2-4FE7-9527-23BC60703D29@0xdeadbeef.com> <604aa7910804031057y1fbf23b8tcd0922af13abcb0b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Apr 2008, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 9:54 AM, Christopher Blizzard > wrote: >> Sounds like the code is in there and it's a pref switch. No idea how >> stable/good it is, though. > > gst is listed as a playback option in F8's miro... gonna suck some > content down and try it... > > too bad there isn't any existing theora content in a miro channel. Maybe we should just try to bootstrap a Miro channel on a box somewhere for testing purposes. I've still got a test box in Fedora-land for Fedora TV, I think -- I'd be happy to give it up. --g -- Greg DeKoenigsberg Community Development Manager Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255 "To whomsoever much hath been given... ...from him much shall be asked" From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Apr 3 18:08:59 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 10:08:59 -0800 Subject: Fedora TV, the video quandary, and a request for advice (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: <604aa7910804021423q29cb7e15n2cec25f1b1a33035@mail.gmail.com> <415B233F-CBB3-443E-A806-BEE4CD5C134D@0xdeadbeef.com> <55A4BA2E-03A2-4FE7-9527-23BC60703D29@0xdeadbeef.com> <604aa7910804031057y1fbf23b8tcd0922af13abcb0b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910804031108x493b484ci89fc9bc2d5612cb6@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 10:02 AM, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > Maybe we should just try to bootstrap a Miro channel on a box somewhere for > testing purposes. I've still got a test box in Fedora-land for Fedora TV, I > think -- I'd be happy to give it up. That would make some sense. Also we need to talk to the Miro maintainer about flipping the bits to make gst the default instead of xine. Miro on rawhide seems to be busted.. the interface is borked. I wonder if that is xulrunner damage? But Miro on F8 comes up and works for me.. just need to switch playback to gst. -jef From smooge at gmail.com Thu Apr 3 19:21:35 2008 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 13:21:35 -0600 Subject: Spins proposals In-Reply-To: <1207242290.3041.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1206969809.3801.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47F3A916.1020208@fedoraproject.org> <604aa7910804021006r1862c112vd7be48543d28e4b3@mail.gmail.com> <1207237442.14362.41.camel@metroid.rdu.redhat.com> <80d7e4090804030917u16559cc2p74749540149b71d4@mail.gmail.com> <1207242290.3041.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <80d7e4090804031221h2de9363ds2d97595d9fa9c4bc@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 11:04 AM, Tom spot Callaway wrote: > On Thu, 2008-04-03 at 10:17 -0600, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > > Grumpy old man smooge will now shut-up. > > I wonder whether more than a handful of folks will catch most of those > Red Hat Ancient History lessons. :/ > /me starts work on getting a Red Hat Department of History so we know why we are making the same mistakes again... -- Stephen J Smoogen. -- CSIRT/Linux System Administrator How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice" From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Apr 3 19:33:16 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 11:33:16 -0800 Subject: Spins proposals In-Reply-To: <80d7e4090804031221h2de9363ds2d97595d9fa9c4bc@mail.gmail.com> References: <1206969809.3801.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47F3A916.1020208@fedoraproject.org> <604aa7910804021006r1862c112vd7be48543d28e4b3@mail.gmail.com> <1207237442.14362.41.camel@metroid.rdu.redhat.com> <80d7e4090804030917u16559cc2p74749540149b71d4@mail.gmail.com> <1207242290.3041.31.camel@localhost.localdomain> <80d7e4090804031221h2de9363ds2d97595d9fa9c4bc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910804031233j26c3f6c5q63723db0f480f1f@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 11:21 AM, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > /me starts work on getting a Red Hat Department of History so we know > why we are making the same mistakes again... Uhm... I think for Fedora as a project, we could probably actually start doing that for most Board level discussion since we are making an effort to be transparent. Public meeting minutes help.. a lot. -jef From stickster at gmail.com Thu Apr 3 21:36:00 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2008 17:36:00 -0400 Subject: Call for Stories. Message-ID: <1207258560.15133.129.camel@localhost.localdomain> Refer to: http://paul.frields.org/?p=966 We're looking for Fedora Stories -- a person who wants to talk about how Fedora has enabled them to do something interesting or exciting with the innovative technology we provide. We want to use these stories as part of the bigger Marketing Plan for Fedora.[1] The story doesn't have to be about you, but we do want to have a person to contact to talk about it.* ("My neighbor Joe does pro bono work, building web servers for public service groups based on Fedora.") * Don't post Joe's info, just yours. We'll get back to you, promise. The story can be about something you're making for Fedora consumption, as long as you include what makes it important or cool. ("I'm making a new bug tracker, because all the rest of them are too hard for regular people to use to contribute.") Visit: http://paul.frields.org/?p=966 -- and post a comment with your story! = = = [1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing/MarketingPlan -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jkeating at redhat.com Thu Apr 3 22:24:09 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2008 18:24:09 -0400 Subject: Spins proposals In-Reply-To: <1206969809.3801.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1206969809.3801.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1207261449.4103.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2008-03-31 at 09:23 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > Jeff Spaleta has been kind enough to post his spin proposals on the > wiki > for easier reading and comment. The main proposal is at: > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JefSpaleta/SpinReleaseProcessProposal > > There are supplemental addenda at: > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JefSpaleta/SpinReleaseProcessAmendments > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JefSpaleta/CommunityHostedSpins releng agrees with these proposals in principle. Josh Boyer will be leading the effort to have releng provide the things these proposals lay out as our responsibility, and participating in the spins SIG from a releng point of view. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- All my bits are free, are yours? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From bche at redhat.com Fri Apr 4 20:37:43 2008 From: bche at redhat.com (Bryan Che) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2008 16:37:43 -0400 Subject: naming discussion for Fedora community grid project (previously aka Fedora@Home) In-Reply-To: <47EC0AB9.70504@redhat.com> References: <47EC0AB9.70504@redhat.com> Message-ID: <47F69197.8040803@redhat.com> So, these are the name candidates for the Fedora community grid project: -Cointelligence -Compunity -Dream -Group Think -Nightlife -Re-Cycle -REM Cycle -Sandman -Shepherd -Sleepwalker -Trellis -Turbine Please cast your votes for names: +1/0/-1, and then I'll tabulate and declare a winner. The vote is open until 4/11. Thanks, Bryan Bryan Che wrote: > Hi, as a follow-up to my proposal to create a Fedora community grid > project > (http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2008-March/msg00022.html) > and our discussion at fedora-advisory-board regarding naming > (http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2008-March/msg00100.html), > I asked John Adams and some of the creative people at Red Hat to help us > brainstorm names for this project. They did a great job, and I've > attached the output of their work. Note that these names are all just > suggestions and starting points for conversation. > > Please provide input on names. I'll let the conversation go for a week > and then put up a consensus vote on 4/4 as to what we will name this > project. > > Thanks, > > Bryan > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Apr 4 20:50:18 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2008 02:20:18 +0530 Subject: naming discussion for Fedora community grid project (previously aka Fedora@Home) In-Reply-To: <47F69197.8040803@redhat.com> References: <47EC0AB9.70504@redhat.com> <47F69197.8040803@redhat.com> Message-ID: <47F6948A.4050508@fedoraproject.org> Bryan Che wrote: > So, these are the name candidates for the Fedora community grid project: > > -Cointelligence > -Compunity > -Dream > -Group Think > -Nightlife > -Re-Cycle > -REM Cycle > -Sandman > -Shepherd > -Sleepwalker > -Trellis > -Turbine > > Please cast your votes for names: +1/0/-1, and then I'll tabulate and > declare a winner. The vote is open until 4/11. Sleepwalker gets a +1 from me. Rahul From ricky at fedoraproject.org Fri Apr 4 21:48:09 2008 From: ricky at fedoraproject.org (Ricky Zhou) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 17:48:09 -0400 Subject: naming discussion for Fedora community grid project (previously aka Fedora@Home) In-Reply-To: <47F6948A.4050508@fedoraproject.org> References: <47EC0AB9.70504@redhat.com> <47F69197.8040803@redhat.com> <47F6948A.4050508@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <20080404214808.GB32030@Max> On 2008-04-05 02:20:18 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Sleepwalker gets a +1 from me. +1 Thanks, Ricky -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From luis at tieguy.org Fri Apr 4 21:49:59 2008 From: luis at tieguy.org (Luis Villa) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 17:49:59 -0400 Subject: naming discussion for Fedora community grid project (previously aka Fedora@Home) In-Reply-To: <47F69197.8040803@redhat.com> References: <47EC0AB9.70504@redhat.com> <47F69197.8040803@redhat.com> Message-ID: <2cb10c440804041449ld61e0a2hb7d552517aae8666@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 4:37 PM, Bryan Che wrote: > -Sandman +1 for Sandman from me. Shame Electric Sheep is already taken. Luis From smooge at gmail.com Fri Apr 4 22:18:12 2008 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 16:18:12 -0600 Subject: naming discussion for Fedora community grid project (previously aka Fedora@Home) In-Reply-To: <47F69197.8040803@redhat.com> References: <47EC0AB9.70504@redhat.com> <47F69197.8040803@redhat.com> Message-ID: <80d7e4090804041518n7854fd58nb8bbec4b9d7eb9e7@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 2:37 PM, Bryan Che wrote: > So, these are the name candidates for the Fedora community grid project: > -1 -Cointelligence -1 -Compunity 0 -Dream -1 -Group Think +1 -Nightlife -1 -Re-Cycle 0 -REM Cycle +1 -Sandman [Just don't use DC Comics logos] 0 -Shepherd 0 -Sleepwalker -1 -Trellis -1 -Turbine -- Stephen J Smoogen. -- CSIRT/Linux System Administrator How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice" From ivazqueznet at gmail.com Fri Apr 4 22:39:23 2008 From: ivazqueznet at gmail.com (Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2008 18:39:23 -0400 Subject: naming discussion for Fedora community grid project (previously aka Fedora@Home) In-Reply-To: <47F69197.8040803@redhat.com> References: <47EC0AB9.70504@redhat.com> <47F69197.8040803@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1207348764.14663.14.camel@ignacio.lan> On Fri, 2008-04-04 at 16:37 -0400, Bryan Che wrote: > -Sleepwalker +1 -- Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams PLEASE don't CC me; I'm already subscribed -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ianweller at gmail.com Fri Apr 4 21:49:44 2008 From: ianweller at gmail.com (Ian Weller) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 16:49:44 -0500 (CDT) Subject: naming discussion for Fedora community grid project (previously aka Fedora@Home) In-Reply-To: <47F69197.8040803@redhat.com> References: <47EC0AB9.70504@redhat.com> <47F69197.8040803@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Apr 2008, Bryan Che wrote: > So, these are the name candidates for the Fedora community grid project: > > -Cointelligence 0 > -Compunity -1, sounds somewhat silly > -Dream -1, too generic > -Group Think -1, sounds too "1984"-ish... > -Nightlife > -Re-Cycle > -REM Cycle > -Sandman > -Shepherd > -Sleepwalker 0... I'm not much of a fan of any of the 'sleeping' ones. Sounds like we're tired. However, they work. > -Trellis +1 > -Turbine +1 > I'm assuming we can vote for more than 1. Please note I'm not attacking anyone specifically with the comments I have said, I just wanted to say why I'm voting for each one. -- ian From jeff at ocjtech.us Fri Apr 4 23:47:53 2008 From: jeff at ocjtech.us (Jeffrey Ollie) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 18:47:53 -0500 Subject: naming discussion for Fedora community grid project (previously aka Fedora@Home) In-Reply-To: <47F69197.8040803@redhat.com> References: <47EC0AB9.70504@redhat.com> <47F69197.8040803@redhat.com> Message-ID: <935ead450804041647o45081e0ahb17153993ca0c686@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 3:37 PM, Bryan Che wrote: > So, these are the name candidates for the Fedora community grid project: > > -Cointelligence -1 > -Compunity -1 > -Dream -1 > -Group Think -1 > -Nightlife -1 > -Re-Cycle -1 > -REM Cycle -1 > -Sandman +1 > -Shepherd -1 > -Sleepwalker -1 > -Trellis -1 > -Turbine +1 Jeff From luis at tieguy.org Fri Apr 4 23:54:16 2008 From: luis at tieguy.org (Luis Villa) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 19:54:16 -0400 Subject: for future reference in naming (or similar) discussions Message-ID: <2cb10c440804041654s3d4bs811a91e4c625bbf6@mail.gmail.com> we're in the 21st century now, we can do better than +1s ;) http://selectricity.org/ source available web/email/sms-based ranking-centered voting. Not that +1s don't work, just something to keep in mind if you want someone else to do the counting for you :) Luis From a.badger at gmail.com Sat Apr 5 00:19:44 2008 From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2008 17:19:44 -0700 Subject: for future reference in naming (or similar) discussions In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440804041654s3d4bs811a91e4c625bbf6@mail.gmail.com> References: <2cb10c440804041654s3d4bs811a91e4c625bbf6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47F6C5A0.5040801@gmail.com> Luis Villa wrote: > we're in the 21st century now, we can do better than +1s ;) > > http://selectricity.org/ > > source available web/email/sms-based ranking-centered voting. > > Not that +1s don't work, just something to keep in mind if you want > someone else to do the counting for you :) Luis, that looks really nice. I can't seem to find source, though. Have a pointer? -Toshio -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From stickster at gmail.com Sat Apr 5 00:41:24 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2008 00:41:24 +0000 Subject: naming discussion for Fedora community grid project (previously aka Fedora@Home) In-Reply-To: <47F69197.8040803@redhat.com> References: <47EC0AB9.70504@redhat.com> <47F69197.8040803@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1207356084.6315.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2008-04-04 at 16:37 -0400, Bryan Che wrote: > So, these are the name candidates for the Fedora community grid project: +1 -Sleepwalker +1 -Turbine -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From vivek.patankar at gmail.com Sat Apr 5 00:48:30 2008 From: vivek.patankar at gmail.com (Vivek J. Patankar) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2008 06:18:30 +0530 Subject: naming discussion for Fedora community grid project (previously aka Fedora@Home) In-Reply-To: <47F69197.8040803@redhat.com> References: <47EC0AB9.70504@redhat.com> <47F69197.8040803@redhat.com> Message-ID: <47F6CC5E.6070606@gmail.com> Bryan Che wrote: > -Cointelligence -1 Sounds more like Counter Intelligence. > -Compunity > -Dream > -Group Think 0 > -Nightlife +1 > -Re-Cycle > -REM Cycle > -Sandman > -Shepherd -1 > -Sleepwalker > -Trellis 0 > -Turbine +1 -- Regards, ????? ?. ?????? (Vivek J. Patankar) Registered Linux User #374218 Fedora release 8 (Werewolf) Linux 2.6.23.8-63.fc8 x86_64 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 251 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From luis at tieguy.org Sat Apr 5 00:53:28 2008 From: luis at tieguy.org (Luis Villa) Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2008 20:53:28 -0400 Subject: for future reference in naming (or similar) discussions In-Reply-To: <47F6C5A0.5040801@gmail.com> References: <2cb10c440804041654s3d4bs811a91e4c625bbf6@mail.gmail.com> <47F6C5A0.5040801@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2cb10c440804041753u11975881n2b1213987252fd6c@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 8:19 PM, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > > Luis Villa wrote: > > > we're in the 21st century now, we can do better than +1s ;) > > > > http://selectricity.org/ > > > > source available web/email/sms-based ranking-centered voting. > > > > Not that +1s don't work, just something to keep in mind if you want > > someone else to do the counting for you :) > > > > Luis, that looks really nice. I can't seem to find source, though. Have a > pointer? The backend is here, I believe: http://rubyvote.rubyforge.org/ Not sure about the frontend code. (The primary developer is an FSF board member, so I know it is out there somewhere :) Luis From cctrieloff at redhat.com Sat Apr 5 01:06:18 2008 From: cctrieloff at redhat.com (Carl Trieloff) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2008 21:06:18 -0400 Subject: naming discussion for Fedora community grid project (previously aka Fedora@Home) In-Reply-To: <47F6CC5E.6070606@gmail.com> References: <47EC0AB9.70504@redhat.com> <47F69197.8040803@redhat.com> <47F6CC5E.6070606@gmail.com> Message-ID: <47F6D08A.2070901@redhat.com> Nightlife +1 Carl. From fedora at fishter.org.uk Sat Apr 5 12:30:22 2008 From: fedora at fishter.org.uk (Graeme Hilton) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2008 13:30:22 +0100 Subject: naming discussion for Fedora community grid project (previously aka Fedora@Home) In-Reply-To: <47F69197.8040803@redhat.com> References: <47EC0AB9.70504@redhat.com> <47F69197.8040803@redhat.com> Message-ID: <47F770DE.5060001@fishter.org.uk> Bryan Che wrote: > So, these are the name candidates for the Fedora community grid project: > > -Cointelligence > -Compunity > -Dream > -Group Think > -Nightlife -1 > -Re-Cycle > -REM Cycle > -Sandman 0 > -Shepherd > -Sleepwalker -1 > -Trellis > -Turbine +1 -- Graeme Hilton From rtlm10 at gmail.com Sun Apr 6 08:03:21 2008 From: rtlm10 at gmail.com (Russell Harrison) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 04:03:21 -0400 Subject: Fedora TV, the video quandary, and a request for advice (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: <80d7e4090804021704u426bafedpb519426c1784ef@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1ed4a0130804060103k319ef63s2f6c34df4da7c7fa@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 1:06 PM, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > On Wed, 2 Apr 2008, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > > > > > > > 4. Users should be able to easily specify licensing of the videos. > > > > > > > What licenses would we use? What ones would be verbotten? > > > > This is a simple policy question. We *will* want "open video" -- that much > we know. Licensing will come later. Has anyone looked into what's going on over at TheoraSea? They seem to be barely handling their load right now but I did find the ITheora library especially interesting. http://theorasea.org http://menguy.aymeric.free.fr/theora/ Russell From loupgaroublond at gmail.com Sun Apr 6 23:06:30 2008 From: loupgaroublond at gmail.com (Yaakov Nemoy) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 19:06:30 -0400 Subject: for future reference in naming (or similar) discussions In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440804041654s3d4bs811a91e4c625bbf6@mail.gmail.com> References: <2cb10c440804041654s3d4bs811a91e4c625bbf6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7f692fec0804061606x100f310di550ff353edab3be0@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 7:54 PM, Luis Villa wrote: > we're in the 21st century now, we can do better than +1s ;) > > http://selectricity.org/ > > source available web/email/sms-based ranking-centered voting. > > Not that +1s don't work, just something to keep in mind if you want > someone else to do the counting for you :) > Luis +1 to that. ;) -Yaakov From and at engagemedia.org Sun Apr 6 11:59:23 2008 From: and at engagemedia.org (andrew lowenthal) Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2008 21:59:23 +1000 Subject: fedora.tv/plumi Message-ID: <87C8F7E6-724A-4ADF-85B5-EFF4DE7EB83F@engagemedia.org> Hi all, my name is Andrew Lowenthal, I work with EngageMedia and deal with the outreach for the Plumi video sharing platform among other things. Greg emailed me and suggested I join this Fedora TV thread as we'd been discussing Redhat's current use of Plumi internally for sharing videos. For those new to Plumi it allows users to create an out-of-the-box video sharing site. It's GPL, built on Plone and pulls together around 15/16 products and configures them to all work together for video sharing/community building, eg. video podcasting, tagging, transcoding, content licensing - http://blog.plumi.org/features/ Now obviously I am biased but I think Plumi can work for the needs people have outlined so far, however I thought I'd address a few of the specific needs/concerns that I saw mentioned in the threat. I've also cc'd Karl Abbot who is managing the Redhat internal Plumi system, he might perhaps be able to pass on access for people to have a look around or give his own feedback on useing the system. You can also check http://demo.plumi.org or http://engagemedia.org, which probably the best example to date. Regarding Ogg - Plumi uses an application called indytube to transcode to flash and Ogg. The problem however is that embedded ogg playback is not the best experience on any system atm imho and doesn't compete well with flash. We're _very_ keen however to see Ogg playing nicely in the browser. Late last year we, EngageMedia, released a research report into FOSS codecs usability, uptake and development. It was an attempt to create a roadmap to make Ogg a viable option for ordinary video makers. You can find the report here http://tinyurl.com/yofb2g At present we're collaborating with Micheal Dale, who is working with Metavid on mv-embed, on a proposal to Mozilla (or any other funder you might recommend) to development a Ogg transcoder/uploader as a firefox addon to solve the problem of ordinary video makers generally having problems creating Oggs. The playback would be handled inside Plumi with mv-embed. I can send more details of this if people are interested. Bittorrent integration is 80% done and could probably be knocked over quite quickly with bit of extra energy. Straight http downloads of all videos are also available. Content licensing is integrated and connects to the Creative Commons API and has FDL and other custom license options also. Hopefully the fact that we are integrated with Plone overcomes some of the concerns about dependency (as regarding lulu falling over) but of course you have to do your own hosting, though you could also look at integrating with archive.org, something we're keen to explore. ATM we're just using a single 2GHz machine with 3GB of RAM to run engagemedia.org and also run a few other sites/mail etc. on that server. As regards Miro, its really a front end for receiving media rather than publishing it. Plumi is made to work quite seamlessly with Miro however as the publishing side of the equation. All listings/ categories etc. put out a valid rss2 vodcast feed and all members also have their own feed. Plone also makes it pretty easy to create custom feeds based on any criteria. Bittorrent links can easily be added to the feed for Miro to use as the first download option. Also FYI the Miro crew's previous publishing platform, Broadcast Machine, is now defunct. http://www.getmiro.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=48 The Wordpress based Show-in-a-box is the only other really solid system I know of but is more aimed at the video blogging community rather than at setting up large scale community sites. http://showinabox.tv/ To see more on the where we are hoping to take the Plumi development you can see the tracker here http://plumi.org/report/3 Any questions let me know. Cheers. Andrew -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tiemann at redhat.com Mon Apr 7 13:02:06 2008 From: tiemann at redhat.com (Michael Tiemann) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2008 09:02:06 -0400 Subject: naming discussion for Fedora community grid project (previously aka Fedora@Home) In-Reply-To: <47F69197.8040803@redhat.com> References: <47EC0AB9.70504@redhat.com> <47F69197.8040803@redhat.com> Message-ID: <47FA1B4E.90302@redhat.com> Bryan Che wrote: > So, these are the name candidates for the Fedora community grid project: > > -1 -Cointelligence > -1 -Compunity > -1 -Dream > +1 -Group Think > +1 -Nightlife > +1 -Re-Cycle > +1 -REM Cycle > 0 -Sandman > 0 -Shepherd > +1 -Sleepwalker > -1 -Trellis > 0 -Turbine M From blizzard at 0xdeadbeef.com Mon Apr 7 21:47:49 2008 From: blizzard at 0xdeadbeef.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 16:47:49 -0500 Subject: Fedora TV, the video quandary, and a request for advice (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: <604aa7910804021423q29cb7e15n2cec25f1b1a33035@mail.gmail.com> <415B233F-CBB3-443E-A806-BEE4CD5C134D@0xdeadbeef.com> <55A4BA2E-03A2-4FE7-9527-23BC60703D29@0xdeadbeef.com> <604aa7910804031057y1fbf23b8tcd0922af13abcb0b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <05A49797-7BF1-422C-90EE-42210124226D@0xdeadbeef.com> On Apr 3, 2008, at 1:02 PM, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > On Thu, 3 Apr 2008, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > >> On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 9:54 AM, Christopher Blizzard >> wrote: >>> Sounds like the code is in there and it's a pref switch. No idea >>> how >>> stable/good it is, though. >> >> gst is listed as a playback option in F8's miro... gonna suck some >> content down and try it... >> >> too bad there isn't any existing theora content in a miro channel. > > Maybe we should just try to bootstrap a Miro channel on a box > somewhere for testing purposes. I've still got a test box in Fedora- > land for Fedora TV, I think -- I'd be happy to give it up. Also check with willg who has been fighting the good fight with both Ubuntu and Rawhide at the same time. (I'm on a plane at the moment so I can't look up his info) He will tell you how to set things up properly. --Chris From blizzard at 0xdeadbeef.com Mon Apr 7 21:47:44 2008 From: blizzard at 0xdeadbeef.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 16:47:44 -0500 Subject: Fedora TV, the video quandary, and a request for advice (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: <604aa7910804021423q29cb7e15n2cec25f1b1a33035@mail.gmail.com> <415B233F-CBB3-443E-A806-BEE4CD5C134D@0xdeadbeef.com> <55A4BA2E-03A2-4FE7-9527-23BC60703D29@0xdeadbeef.com> <604aa7910804031057y1fbf23b8tcd0922af13abcb0b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Apr 3, 2008, at 1:02 PM, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > Maybe we should just try to bootstrap a Miro channel on a box > somewhere for testing purposes. I've still got a test box in Fedora- > land for Fedora TV, I think -- I'd be happy to give it up. Check out the getmiro site - there's an easy way to add channels there. I think all you need is an rss feed and a place to host files/ torrents. --Chris From gdk at redhat.com Mon Apr 7 22:24:17 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 18:24:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: naming discussion for Fedora community grid project (previously aka Fedora@Home) In-Reply-To: <47F6948A.4050508@fedoraproject.org> References: <47EC0AB9.70504@redhat.com> <47F69197.8040803@redhat.com> <47F6948A.4050508@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Apr 2008, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Sleepwalker gets a +1 from me. Sleepwalker +1 for me also. --g -- Greg DeKoenigsberg Community Development Manager Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255 "To whomsoever much hath been given... ...from him much shall be asked" From kwade at redhat.com Mon Apr 7 22:27:52 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2008 15:27:52 -0700 Subject: naming discussion for Fedora community grid project (previously aka Fedora@Home) In-Reply-To: <47F69197.8040803@redhat.com> References: <47EC0AB9.70504@redhat.com> <47F69197.8040803@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1207607272.4585.279.camel@calliope.phig.org> (resending to this list to get the discussion in one location) On Fri, 2008-04-04 at 16:37 -0400, Bryan Che wrote: > So, these are the name candidates for the Fedora community grid project: > > -Cointelligence -1 > -Compunity -1 > -Dream 0 > -Group Think -1 > -Nightlife +1 > -Re-Cycle > -REM Cycle 0 > -Sandman +1 > -Shepherd 0 > -Sleepwalker +1 > -Trellis 0 > -Turbine +1 -- Karsten Wade, Sr. Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Tue Apr 8 00:10:47 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 00:10:47 +0000 Subject: Survey for FUDCon Boston 2008 Message-ID: <1207613447.18157.104.camel@localhost.localdomain> I'll be asking the Marketing folks to help us have another survey ready at the Boston FUDCon event in June. The last survey for a FUDCon event is available at: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing/Surveys Did anyone have burning ideas for some other statistics we can gather from the attendees? Some things that occurred to me: 1. Rating question to find out how much co-location with Summit mattered to attendees 2. Rating question to find out how likely people are to come to future Summits in Boston area -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From poelstra at redhat.com Tue Apr 8 16:48:34 2008 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 09:48:34 -0700 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2008-APR-01 Message-ID: <47FBA1E2.2030402@redhat.com> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/Meetings/2008-04-01 Attendees: Everyone on #fedora-board-meeting (Monthly public IRC meeting) == Discussion Summary == === Spins (2008-01-29) === * https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JefSpaleta/SpinReleaseProcessProposal * No decenting votes on proposal * Concerns about how and where spins will be built and interactions with SELinux * OWNER: Karsten Wade * ACTION: Organize a special meeting to discuss SELinux issues and go-forward plan === Codeina (2008-02-26) === * board revisited previous decision * agreed to revert to Fedora 8 Codeina behavior and include latest Fedora 8 Codeina package in Fedora 9 * revisit Codeina again at start of Fedora 10 * OWNERS: Seth Vidal and Chris Aillon * ACTION: co-maintainers for codeina--add latest Fedora 8 version to rawhide for Fedora 9 === Other discussion === * See transcript From tiemann at redhat.com Thu Apr 10 15:47:37 2008 From: tiemann at redhat.com (Michael Tiemann) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 11:47:37 -0400 Subject: Recommend supporting Libre Graphics 2008 Message-ID: <47FE3699.7090507@redhat.com> I recommend that those who can consider supporting Libre Graphics as I have done. I think this is a worthwhile event for Fedora to sponsor at some level, or, if that is not possible, via individual contributions. Great things are happening and we should participate. Here's the blog posting I wrote explaining my contribution: http://opensource.org/node/323 M From poelstra at redhat.com Thu Apr 10 18:14:38 2008 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 11:14:38 -0700 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2008-APR-08 Message-ID: <47FE590E.3090204@redhat.com> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/Meetings/2008-04-08 == Roll Call == Attendees: Seth Vidal, Paul Frields, John Poelstra, Bill Nottingham, Steve Dickson, Jef Spaleta, Dennis Gilmore, Chris Aillon, Karsten Wade Regrets: Matt Domsch, Bob McWirther == FUDCon F10 == * June 19 to 21, 2008 * First two days will be a ''hackfest'' at the Hynes center * held in conjunction with the Red Hat Summit * Thursday and Friday * Getting part of third floor of Hynes center for FUDCon * Own registration area * Total of three rooms * large hall holding 200 * smaller two rooms hold approximately 100 people with individual tables for people to work at * Will have white boards and ample power * Separate badge access to FUDCon * Free to everyone * Free access to vendor exhibit area as part of the summit * Third day will be barcamp style * At Boston University * Saturday * Hotel information is here: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FUDCon/FUDConF10#hotels * Summit rate is available before and after FUDCon * Working on corporate sponsorships to offset costs for Food * Statistics people would like to capture from FUDCon survey--see fedora-advisory-board thread. == Fedora Accounts (2008-03-25) == * What are the procedures for disabling questionable Fedora accounts? * DECISIONS: * Infrastructure group is empowered to handle questionable accounts * If there are problems resolving questionable accounts they should be escalated to the board == Spins (2008-01-29) == * '''FOLLOWUP on 2008-04-01''' * https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JefSpaleta/SpinReleaseProcessProposal * No dissenting votes on proposal * Concerns about how and where spins will be built and interactions with SELinux * OWNER: Karsten Wade * ACTION: Organize a special meeting to discuss SELinux issues and go-forward plan * '''FOLLOWUP on 2008-04-08''' * No meeting has taken place or been scheduled but Seth has talked to many of the applicable parties * OWNER: Karsten Wade * ACTIONS: * Move discussion to fedora-selinux-list * Pre-announce that discussion about selinux and spins will be taking place on selinux-list by announcing on fedora-devel-list. From bche at redhat.com Mon Apr 14 14:53:13 2008 From: bche at redhat.com (Bryan Che) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 10:53:13 -0400 Subject: naming discussion for Fedora community grid project (previously aka Fedora@Home) In-Reply-To: <47F69197.8040803@redhat.com> References: <47EC0AB9.70504@redhat.com> <47F69197.8040803@redhat.com> Message-ID: <48036FD9.7020400@redhat.com> I've tallied up the votes, and Fedora Sleepwalker wins! Here are the results: Name +1 0 -1 Total Cointelligence 0 1 7 -7 Compunity 0 1 7 -7 Dream 0.5 4 4 -3.5 Group Think 1 2 5 -4 Nightlife 5 2 2 3 Re-Cycle 1 5 2 -1 REM Cycle 2 5 1 1 Sandman 5.5 4 0 5.5 Shepherd 0 6 2 -2 Sleepwalker 11 3 2 9 Trellis 6 3 3 3 Turbine 8 2 1 7 Bryan Bryan Che wrote: > So, these are the name candidates for the Fedora community grid project: > > -Cointelligence > -Compunity > -Dream > -Group Think > -Nightlife > -Re-Cycle > -REM Cycle > -Sandman > -Shepherd > -Sleepwalker > -Trellis > -Turbine > > Please cast your votes for names: +1/0/-1, and then I'll tabulate and > declare a winner. The vote is open until 4/11. > > Thanks, > > Bryan > > > Bryan Che wrote: >> Hi, as a follow-up to my proposal to create a Fedora community grid >> project >> (http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2008-March/msg00022.html) >> and our discussion at fedora-advisory-board regarding naming >> (http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2008-March/msg00100.html), >> I asked John Adams and some of the creative people at Red Hat to help >> us brainstorm names for this project. They did a great job, and I've >> attached the output of their work. Note that these names are all just >> suggestions and starting points for conversation. >> >> Please provide input on names. I'll let the conversation go for a >> week and then put up a consensus vote on 4/4 as to what we will name >> this project. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Bryan >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> > From jonrob at fedoraproject.org Sun Apr 20 20:50:21 2008 From: jonrob at fedoraproject.org (Jonathan Roberts) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 21:50:21 +0100 Subject: Elected/Appointed Board Message-ID: <507738ef0804201350m141834e4ifa46a9bda00a4bca@mail.gmail.com> Hi all, I was just looking over the minutes from the first "town hall" meeting and read Rahul's question with interest: "Will the Board ever switch from 5 appointed/4 elected to a majority in the other direction?" The answer that Paul gave to this didn't seem clear to me, and I was wondering if a clarification was possible? Paul said: "-- but this question is academic until and unless Fedora has sponsors other than Red Hat." Why does Fedora having [significant] sponsors other than Red Hat make a difference to the make-up of the board? While I understand that Red Hat makes significant contributions to Fedora, I'm not sure I understand why it is correct that the majority of the board and the chair person with their veto should be appointed by Red Hat. I have further thoughts on the matter, but would rather not speak them until I understand other the reasons behind the status-quo better - I don't want to embarrass myself! Best wishes, Jon From jwboyer at gmail.com Sun Apr 20 21:02:24 2008 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 16:02:24 -0500 Subject: Elected/Appointed Board In-Reply-To: <507738ef0804201350m141834e4ifa46a9bda00a4bca@mail.gmail.com> References: <507738ef0804201350m141834e4ifa46a9bda00a4bca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1208725344.6654.30.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> On Sun, 2008-04-20 at 21:50 +0100, Jonathan Roberts wrote: > Hi all, > > I was just looking over the minutes from the first "town hall" meeting > and read Rahul's question with interest: "Will the Board ever switch > from 5 appointed/4 elected to a majority in the other direction?" > > The answer that Paul gave to this didn't seem clear to me, and I was > wondering if a clarification was possible? Paul said: > > "-- but this question is academic until and unless Fedora has sponsors > other than Red Hat." > > Why does Fedora having [significant] sponsors other than Red Hat make > a difference to the make-up of the board? While I understand that Red > Hat makes significant contributions to Fedora, I'm not sure I > understand why it is correct that the majority of the board and the > chair person with their veto should be appointed by Red Hat. Red Hat provides the financial backing. While some other companies have donated hardware, etc, Red Hat is by far the company that makes Fedora possible. ?Having a non-Red Hat employee as the Chair would seem entirely odd to me. Would you appoint someone to control a portion of your bank account that you had absolutely no ties, no insight as to what is good for you in the long run, and no control over? I sure wouldn't. I wouldn't ask Red Hat do to so either. josh From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sun Apr 20 21:26:06 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 02:56:06 +0530 Subject: Elected/Appointed Board In-Reply-To: <1208725344.6654.30.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> References: <507738ef0804201350m141834e4ifa46a9bda00a4bca@mail.gmail.com> <1208725344.6654.30.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: <480BB4EE.7060203@fedoraproject.org> Josh Boyer wrote: > Red Hat provides the financial backing. While some other companies have > donated hardware, etc, Red Hat is by far the company that makes Fedora > possible. > > ?Having a non-Red Hat employee as the Chair would seem entirely odd to > me. That was never asked for however. Red Hat can continue to appoint the chair with the veto power. The veto power has never been used and probably won't be. It is more of a escape hatch if the plane is about to crash. So I am not really worried about that. In summary, what I asked was: If the chair already has veto power, does Red Hat really need a majority vote within the board too? Can we allow the majority seats to be elected ones instead of appointed ones? Or otherwise, can Red Hat consider appointing a non-Red Hat community member possibly even external to Fedora (but from within the Free software community) to bring in a broader perspective to the Fedora Board. It is my strong belief that Red Hat members within the board won't vote for anything just because they work for Red Hat nor do I think Red Hat has tried to influence the direction in a bad way but this is something I wanted the board to consider for how we can be perceived externally. Rahul From jonrob at fedoraproject.org Sun Apr 20 22:13:53 2008 From: jonrob at fedoraproject.org (Jonathan Roberts) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 23:13:53 +0100 Subject: Elected/Appointed Board In-Reply-To: <480BB4EE.7060203@fedoraproject.org> References: <507738ef0804201350m141834e4ifa46a9bda00a4bca@mail.gmail.com> <1208725344.6654.30.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <480BB4EE.7060203@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <507738ef0804201513s9ddfacdmf488097abb051e27@mail.gmail.com> > It is my strong belief that Red Hat members within the board won't vote for > anything just because they work for Red Hat nor do I think Red Hat has tried > to influence the direction in a bad way but this is something I wanted the > board to consider for how we can be perceived externally. I don't know if this is something that should be decided on based on external appearances, but rather as a matter of principal and integrity. Still, like I said before, I'd like to know why the status-quo is as it is before saying too much else! Best, Jon From poelstra at redhat.com Mon Apr 21 04:14:27 2008 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 21:14:27 -0700 Subject: Elected/Appointed Board In-Reply-To: <507738ef0804201350m141834e4ifa46a9bda00a4bca@mail.gmail.com> References: <507738ef0804201350m141834e4ifa46a9bda00a4bca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <480C14A3.1040601@redhat.com> Jonathan Roberts said the following on 04/20/2008 01:50 PM Pacific Time: > Hi all, > > I was just looking over the minutes from the first "town hall" meeting > and read Rahul's question with interest: "Will the Board ever switch > from 5 appointed/4 elected to a majority in the other direction?" This reminded me I forgot to post the minutes from 2008-04-15 :( Sorry about that. This topic was discussed. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/Meetings/2008-04-15 John From poelstra at redhat.com Mon Apr 21 04:16:04 2008 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 21:16:04 -0700 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2008-APR-15 Message-ID: <480C1504.4080701@redhat.com> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/Meetings/2008-04-15 == Roll Call == Attendees: Paul Frields, Steve Dickson, Matt Domsch, John Poelstra, Bill Nottingham, Seth Vidal, Jef Spaleta, Chris Aillon, Karsten Wade Regrets: Dennis Gilmore, Bob McWirther == Spins (2008-01-29) == * '''FOLLOWUP on 2008-04-01''' * https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JefSpaleta/SpinReleaseProcessProposal * No dissenting votes on proposal * Concerns about how and where spins will be built and interactions with SELinux * OWNER: Karsten Wade * ACTION: Organize a special meeting to discuss SELinux issues and go-forward plan * '''FOLLOWUP on 2008-04-08''' * No meeting has taken place or been scheduled but Seth has talked to many of the applicable parties * OWNER: Karsten Wade * ACTIONS: * Move discussion to fedora-selinux-list * Pre-announce that discussion about selinux and spins will be taking place on selinux-list by announcing on fedora-devel-list. * '''FOLLOWUP on 2008-04-15''' * Confirmed that the right people are on the mailing list * Starting discussion today == Board Succession == * Fedora Board election thirty days after GA of Fedora 9 * Exploring possibility of changing balance of Red Hat appointed and community elected seats * currently: 5 Red Hat Appointed + 4 Community Voted * proposed change: 4 Red Hat Appointed + 5 Community Voted * Fedora Project Leader (Red Hat Employee) still maintains final veto power over board decisions * OWNER: Paul Frields * ACTIONS: Paul having internal conversations with Red Hat folks == Codeina == * Discussion will resume for Fedora 10 after Fedora 9 ships * Best to formulate in a feature page with a designated owner * Hold open discussion at monthly IRC meeting (2008-05-06) * OWNER: Paul Frields * ACTIONS: Invite key players to the meeting and give people time to consider what they would like to see by sending announcement to mailing lists. From jonrob at fedoraproject.org Mon Apr 21 09:48:20 2008 From: jonrob at fedoraproject.org (Jonathan Roberts) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 10:48:20 +0100 Subject: Elected/Appointed Board In-Reply-To: <480C14A3.1040601@redhat.com> References: <507738ef0804201350m141834e4ifa46a9bda00a4bca@mail.gmail.com> <480C14A3.1040601@redhat.com> Message-ID: <507738ef0804210248v1edb3442r509629a73a3073f8@mail.gmail.com> Thanks Paul :) I look forward to hearing how this develops and think it's definitely a step in the right direction. I still have some reservations about the system, even if the majority is reversed. The problems I still see with this, and whether these are in any way valid I have no idea but I'd love to hear some feedback about it, are thus: Fedora claims to be a community distribution that *is* more than a beta for RHEL. I believe the quality of the product that our community creates is a clear expression of this fact; the make-up of the board, however, does not. With things as they stand, Red Hat has an overarching influence on the direction of Fedora and has enormous influence in the direction of both Fedora's development and community. Even if the majority were reversed, with the chair having a veto and Red Hat remaining as the single biggest presence on the board, this could remain the case. I trust Red Hat based on their previous actions, and I trust the members of the board as a result of the work that I've done with you and all that I've read. Should these matters be left entirely to trust, however? While a dramatic comparison, the founders of the US didn't think so, and neither do I think RMS did when he first formulated the GPL. Another significant question, beyond trust is, can Fedora truly be seen as (or truly be) a distribution that is run and produced by the community, that is more than a beta for RHEL, while a single company maintains the most significant influence over the project. Another interesting comparison is to England. We have an entirely elected lower house, the Commons, while our upper house is partially elected, partially appointed, and partially made up of hereditary peers - the Lords. The current debate here is whether hereditary and appointed peers are an acceptable state of affairs in a modern democracy, especially following a recent scandal where the government was found to have appointed some peers following large donations to the party. I believe it's a similar question in the Fedora Project (that's not to say I believe anybody currently involved in Fedora or Red Hat is likely to engage in similar actions!), although interestingly we have no wholly elected lower house who holds greater power than the upper house; in fact, it's the reverse! That Red Hat is our financial backer is a significant part of the equation, but it's not the only one. Without the time contributed by members of the community, the money would mean nothing, especially in a distribution where we hold as a matter of pride that over half our packages are maintained by those outside Red Hat. In my opinion, this time is as valuable a commodity as the money put in by Red Hat and as such questions the justification for the chair being both solely appointed by Red Hat and having a veto. I think this sums up my concerns about the current system. As I've tried to stress, I have no idea of their validity and I hope they don't offend anybody. I have complete faith in the current board and Red Hat as things stand, and I admire the work done by all enormously; this is the reason I choose to spend my time contributing to this project in whatever way I can. Best wishes all, Jon From jkeating at redhat.com Mon Apr 21 11:32:30 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 07:32:30 -0400 Subject: Elected/Appointed Board In-Reply-To: <507738ef0804210248v1edb3442r509629a73a3073f8@mail.gmail.com> References: <507738ef0804201350m141834e4ifa46a9bda00a4bca@mail.gmail.com> <480C14A3.1040601@redhat.com> <507738ef0804210248v1edb3442r509629a73a3073f8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1208777550.3445.136.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2008-04-21 at 10:48 +0100, Jonathan Roberts wrote: > although > interestingly we have no wholly elected lower house who holds greater > power than the upper house; in fact, it's the reverse! Actually we have FESCo, the Fedora Engineering Steering Committee, which is wholly elected, and often the place where real decisions get made. The Fedora board is good at setting high level goals and desires, but it really comes down to FESCo and the other committees (like releng, packaging, spins, etc...) to turn that high level ideal into tangible decisions and direction. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- All my bits are free, are yours? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kanarip at kanarip.com Mon Apr 21 11:54:04 2008 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 13:54:04 +0200 Subject: Elected/Appointed Board In-Reply-To: <507738ef0804210248v1edb3442r509629a73a3073f8@mail.gmail.com> References: <507738ef0804201350m141834e4ifa46a9bda00a4bca@mail.gmail.com> <480C14A3.1040601@redhat.com> <507738ef0804210248v1edb3442r509629a73a3073f8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <480C805C.4050702@kanarip.com> Jonathan Roberts wrote: > [...snip...] Correct me if I'm wrong, most of the Red Hat people involved with Fedora are actually community members that just so happen to get a paycheck (good for them, and as it turns out; good for everyone!). That being said, the majority in the board is community no matter if they were elected or got appointed. In fact, the one with veto didn't work for Red Hat until 6-7(?) weeks ago. Kind regards, Jeroen van Meeuwen -kanarip From jonstanley at gmail.com Mon Apr 21 17:02:23 2008 From: jonstanley at gmail.com (Jon Stanley) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 13:02:23 -0400 Subject: Elected/Appointed Board In-Reply-To: <480C805C.4050702@kanarip.com> References: <507738ef0804201350m141834e4ifa46a9bda00a4bca@mail.gmail.com> <480C14A3.1040601@redhat.com> <507738ef0804210248v1edb3442r509629a73a3073f8@mail.gmail.com> <480C805C.4050702@kanarip.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 7:54 AM, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > Correct me if I'm wrong, most of the Red Hat people involved with Fedora > are actually community members that just so happen to get a paycheck (good > for them, and as it turns out; good for everyone!). There is also no requirement that the Red Hat-appointed members of the board have to be Red Hat employees. They historically have been, however. There however is, and should be, a requirement that the chair be employed by Red Hat (and have veto power). This is an emergency override, like Rahul said, the plane is crashing and calling 'Mayday!'. Not that I think that it ever has been nor ever will be utilized, it's something that's important to have in the back pocket. As a real world analogy, when I go bicycling, I wear a helmet. I really hope it never will be necessary, but you get piece of mind from knowing that it's there in case you need it. > That being said, the majority in the board is community no matter if they > were elected or got appointed. In fact, the one with veto didn't work for > Red Hat until 6-7(?) weeks ago. And Paul was a trusted community leader prior to being hired by Red Hat, and continues to be so afterwards. I don't think that his priorities have really changed now that he gathers a paycheck from Red Hat (he certainly has more time to act on those priorities, though! :) ). From kwade at redhat.com Mon Apr 21 19:46:52 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 12:46:52 -0700 Subject: Elected/Appointed Board In-Reply-To: References: <507738ef0804201350m141834e4ifa46a9bda00a4bca@mail.gmail.com> <480C14A3.1040601@redhat.com> <507738ef0804210248v1edb3442r509629a73a3073f8@mail.gmail.com> <480C805C.4050702@kanarip.com> Message-ID: <1208807212.384.28.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Mon, 2008-04-21 at 13:02 -0400, Jon Stanley wrote: > On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 7:54 AM, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > > > Correct me if I'm wrong, most of the Red Hat people involved with Fedora > > are actually community members that just so happen to get a paycheck (good > > for them, and as it turns out; good for everyone!). > > There is also no requirement that the Red Hat-appointed members of the > board have to be Red Hat employees. They historically have been, > however. > > There however is, and should be, a requirement that the chair be > employed by Red Hat (and have veto power). This is an emergency > override, like Rahul said, the plane is crashing and calling > 'Mayday!'. Not that I think that it ever has been nor ever will be > utilized, it's something that's important to have in the back pocket. > As a real world analogy, when I go bicycling, I wear a helmet. I > really hope it never will be necessary, but you get piece of mind from > knowing that it's there in case you need it. It is also used as a tie-breaker. We had a tie a few weeks ago over (*holds breath*) Codeina/Codec Buddy, right there live in IRC, and Paul had to make the decision. Not sure how often this happens. Was his decision the will of the community just because it potentially aligned with a portion of them? Jon is arguing, aiui, "No." - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Sr. Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jonrob at fedoraproject.org Mon Apr 21 21:53:34 2008 From: jonrob at fedoraproject.org (Jonathan Roberts) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 22:53:34 +0100 Subject: Elected/Appointed Board In-Reply-To: <1208807212.384.28.camel@calliope.phig.org> References: <507738ef0804201350m141834e4ifa46a9bda00a4bca@mail.gmail.com> <480C14A3.1040601@redhat.com> <507738ef0804210248v1edb3442r509629a73a3073f8@mail.gmail.com> <480C805C.4050702@kanarip.com> <1208807212.384.28.camel@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <507738ef0804211453i69d45f57ga441aabadebc5218@mail.gmail.com> > It is also used as a tie-breaker. We had a tie a few weeks ago over > (*holds breath*) Codeina/Codec Buddy, right there live in IRC, and Paul > had to make the decision. Not sure how often this happens. Was his > decision the will of the community just because it potentially aligned > with a portion of them? Jon is arguing, aiui, "No." Maybe I should try and re-phrase as it usually takes me a few tries to figure out what I'm actually trying to say! Simply: is the current system in the spirit of the project? I think that, possibly, it isn't. Thanks for your responses so far though, they've certainly helped my appreciate aspects of the project that I didn't get before :) Jon From stickster at gmail.com Mon Apr 21 22:08:19 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 22:08:19 +0000 Subject: Elected/Appointed Board In-Reply-To: <507738ef0804211453i69d45f57ga441aabadebc5218@mail.gmail.com> References: <507738ef0804201350m141834e4ifa46a9bda00a4bca@mail.gmail.com> <480C14A3.1040601@redhat.com> <507738ef0804210248v1edb3442r509629a73a3073f8@mail.gmail.com> <480C805C.4050702@kanarip.com> <1208807212.384.28.camel@calliope.phig.org> <507738ef0804211453i69d45f57ga441aabadebc5218@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1208815699.4737.51.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2008-04-21 at 22:53 +0100, Jonathan Roberts wrote: > > It is also used as a tie-breaker. We had a tie a few weeks ago over > > (*holds breath*) Codeina/Codec Buddy, right there live in IRC, and Paul > > had to make the decision. Not sure how often this happens. Was his > > decision the will of the community just because it potentially aligned > > with a portion of them? Jon is arguing, aiui, "No." > > Maybe I should try and re-phrase as it usually takes me a few tries to > figure out what I'm actually trying to say! > > Simply: is the current system in the spirit of the project? I think > that, possibly, it isn't. > > Thanks for your responses so far though, they've certainly helped my > appreciate aspects of the project that I didn't get before :) I think other people have explained those aspects well, so there's no need for me to reiterate here, other than to say that we should always be willing to question our governance model to make sure that we're proceeding in the best tradition of open source. I find it really hilarious that this issue came up while I had been working on this very issue over the last few weeks. That's what I really *LOVE* about our community though -- there is always someone around to watch over important issues. Hopefully you'll appreciate the announcement that I had been preparing for today. :-) I think it's a nice step forward in the evolution of Fedora's governance. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Mon Apr 21 22:09:28 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 18:09:28 -0400 Subject: Change in Board composition Message-ID: <1208815768.4737.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> Since the Fedora Board originally formed in 2006, the Fedora Project has changed quite a bit. We now have about two-thirds of our packages maintained by volunteer community members. Our technical steering committee, FESCo, is made up of a roughly even mix of volunteers and Red Hat employees. This community has developed and enforced its own high standards and done it in an open and transparent fashion in the best tradition of open source. And through all of these efforts, we've helped build a community of contributors -- not just people who *use* Fedora, but people who *give back* to the open source ecosystem, and their fellow human beings. I'm very pleased to report that with the post-Fedora 9 election, the Board composition will be a better reflection of the strides our community has made in self-organization and self-governance, and of our healthy partnership with Red Hat. Starting with this election, the Board will move to a composition of five (5) community-elected seats and four (4) Red Hat-appointed seats. This is an issue I've been advocating over the past couple of weeks, and I'm delighted to be able to make this change following my first release as Fedora Project Leader. I look at this as a significant step in the evolution of the Board and Fedora's governance overall. The rest of the Board and I look forward to the elections, and to the continued opportunity to serve everyone in the Fedora community. We appreciate the support and the trust you give us, and will always work hard to earn it. Thanks for reading! -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From caillon at redhat.com Tue Apr 22 00:35:09 2008 From: caillon at redhat.com (Christopher Aillon) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 20:35:09 -0400 Subject: Elected/Appointed Board In-Reply-To: <507738ef0804210248v1edb3442r509629a73a3073f8@mail.gmail.com> References: <507738ef0804201350m141834e4ifa46a9bda00a4bca@mail.gmail.com> <480C14A3.1040601@redhat.com> <507738ef0804210248v1edb3442r509629a73a3073f8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <480D32BD.50405@redhat.com> On 04/21/2008 05:48 AM, Jonathan Roberts wrote: > I trust Red Hat based on their previous actions, and I trust the > members of the board as a result of the work that I've done with you > and all that I've read. Should these matters be left entirely to > trust, however? You cannot force anyone, elected or appointed, to act in a specific fashion. When you elect or appoint someone, you are trusting them to act in a manner you approve of. There is no way too 100% guarantee this will happen. If you move members from appointed to elected, you're simply moving who is investing trust from Red Hat to the small percentage of the community that actually votes. While I am indifferent as to who has 5 vs 4 since I don't think the spirit is harmed in either way if RHT can and will appoint non-RHT employees and the community can and will appoint RHT employees, I think the bigger issue to address is the voter turnout, or lack thereof. Having 10 or so Red Hat people decide things isn't that much worse than having only 10 or so community members decide things.[*] [*] Okay it's not _that_ bad but IIRC we only had about 100 voters last election. That's a worse turnout than the U.S. presidential elections. From mspevack at redhat.com Tue Apr 22 02:17:41 2008 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 22:17:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Elected/Appointed Board In-Reply-To: <1208777550.3445.136.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <507738ef0804201350m141834e4ifa46a9bda00a4bca@mail.gmail.com> <480C14A3.1040601@redhat.com> <507738ef0804210248v1edb3442r509629a73a3073f8@mail.gmail.com> <1208777550.3445.136.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Apr 2008, Jesse Keating wrote: > Actually we have FESCo, the Fedora Engineering Steering Committee, > which is wholly elected, and often the place where real decisions get > made. The Fedora board is good at setting high level goals and > desires, but it really comes down to FESCo and the other committees > (like releng, packaging, spins, etc...) to turn that high level ideal > into tangible decisions and direction. +1 -- in fact, after we merged Core and Extras together during the F7 timeframe, a lot of people were asking "well, what happens to the Fedora Extras Steering Committee". I, knowing myself well enough to know that the best thing I could do for Fedora was *not* pretend to be an engineering manager, was one of the people who advocated for morphing FESCo into the body that could handle the day to day engineering actions of Fedora, and that FESCo was also the body *best qualified* to handle it, and trusting that FESCo would elect the *right people* to the positions, regardless of where they worked. Not suggesting that it's all been a trivially easy process, but we definitely have a track record of trying to push decision making power into the hands of the community as much as possible. One of the things that I told Paul when he took over from me as FPL was that still undone on my List of Goals was giving the various VIPs within Red Hat one last explanation of why the Right Thing To Do with Fedora is to turn the board over into a 5-elected/4-appointed configuration. In my mind, at least, it was always the plan that we'd end up there eventually. Paul's running with that ball now, so I'll leave further updates to him. --Max From mspevack at redhat.com Tue Apr 22 02:24:49 2008 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 22:24:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Elected/Appointed Board In-Reply-To: References: <507738ef0804201350m141834e4ifa46a9bda00a4bca@mail.gmail.com> <480C14A3.1040601@redhat.com> <507738ef0804210248v1edb3442r509629a73a3073f8@mail.gmail.com> <480C805C.4050702@kanarip.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Apr 2008, Jon Stanley wrote: > There however is, and should be, a requirement that the chair be > employed by Red Hat (and have veto power). This is an emergency > override, like Rahul said, the plane is crashing and calling > 'Mayday!'. Not that I think that it ever has been nor ever will be > utilized, it's something that's important to have in the back pocket. > As a real world analogy, when I go bicycling, I wear a helmet. I > really hope it never will be necessary, but you get piece of mind from > knowing that it's there in case you need it. If I did back far enough into the archives, back when we first announced the Board in April 2006, I remember saying something like "even though I have veto power as the FPL, if I ever have to use it, then it means that there has already been a colossal failure at some earlier point in our processes". --Max From mspevack at redhat.com Tue Apr 22 02:26:18 2008 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 22:26:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Elected/Appointed Board In-Reply-To: <1208807212.384.28.camel@calliope.phig.org> References: <507738ef0804201350m141834e4ifa46a9bda00a4bca@mail.gmail.com> <480C14A3.1040601@redhat.com> <507738ef0804210248v1edb3442r509629a73a3073f8@mail.gmail.com> <480C805C.4050702@kanarip.com> <1208807212.384.28.camel@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Apr 2008, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > It is also used as a tie-breaker. We had a tie a few weeks ago over > (*holds breath*) Codeina/Codec Buddy, right there live in IRC, and > Paul had to make the decision. Not sure how often this happens. Was > his decision the will of the community just because it potentially > aligned with a portion of them? Jon is arguing, aiui, "No." We only had a tie because the meeting was on IRC, not all Board members were present, and the Board specifically wanted to make a decision AT THAT TIME and not put it off until the missing member was present. With 9 "voting members", there will never be a tie if everyone is there. --Max From mspevack at redhat.com Tue Apr 22 02:31:14 2008 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 22:31:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Elected/Appointed Board In-Reply-To: <480D32BD.50405@redhat.com> References: <507738ef0804201350m141834e4ifa46a9bda00a4bca@mail.gmail.com> <480C14A3.1040601@redhat.com> <507738ef0804210248v1edb3442r509629a73a3073f8@mail.gmail.com> <480D32BD.50405@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Apr 2008, Christopher Aillon wrote: > [*] Okay it's not _that_ bad but IIRC we only had about 100 voters > last election. That's a worse turnout than the U.S. presidential > elections. For comparison: Debian Project Leader 2008 election Total unique votes cast: 401, which is 37.302% of all possible votes I would also like to see more people voting in Fedora's elections, especially since we don't really do official votes on all that many things. But at the same time, I think that all the various elections that we've had have produced excellent candidates and "winners". I'm interested to see what the next round of Board elections brings. While it's true that the Board position is more strategic than it is tactical, it definitely gives people a new, unique view on the day to day operations of Fedora. I'll have to throw it out to the various Board members we've had -- is/was it an interesting addition to the overall Fedora Contributor Experience? --Max From jwboyer at gmail.com Tue Apr 22 02:36:50 2008 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 21:36:50 -0500 Subject: Elected/Appointed Board In-Reply-To: References: <507738ef0804201350m141834e4ifa46a9bda00a4bca@mail.gmail.com> <480C14A3.1040601@redhat.com> <507738ef0804210248v1edb3442r509629a73a3073f8@mail.gmail.com> <480C805C.4050702@kanarip.com> <1208807212.384.28.camel@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <1208831810.6654.48.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> On Mon, 2008-04-21 at 22:26 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: > On Mon, 21 Apr 2008, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > > > It is also used as a tie-breaker. We had a tie a few weeks ago over > > (*holds breath*) Codeina/Codec Buddy, right there live in IRC, and > > Paul had to make the decision. Not sure how often this happens. Was > > his decision the will of the community just because it potentially > > aligned with a portion of them? Jon is arguing, aiui, "No." > > We only had a tie because the meeting was on IRC, not all Board members > were present, and the Board specifically wanted to make a decision AT > THAT TIME and not put it off until the missing member was present. > > With 9 "voting members", there will never be a tie if everyone is there. "Abstain" votes are not allowed? josh From stickster at gmail.com Tue Apr 22 02:49:23 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 22:49:23 -0400 Subject: Elected/Appointed Board In-Reply-To: References: <507738ef0804201350m141834e4ifa46a9bda00a4bca@mail.gmail.com> <480C14A3.1040601@redhat.com> <507738ef0804210248v1edb3442r509629a73a3073f8@mail.gmail.com> <480C805C.4050702@kanarip.com> Message-ID: <1208832563.27294.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2008-04-21 at 22:24 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: > On Mon, 21 Apr 2008, Jon Stanley wrote: > > > There however is, and should be, a requirement that the chair be > > employed by Red Hat (and have veto power). This is an emergency > > override, like Rahul said, the plane is crashing and calling > > 'Mayday!'. Not that I think that it ever has been nor ever will be > > utilized, it's something that's important to have in the back pocket. > > As a real world analogy, when I go bicycling, I wear a helmet. I > > really hope it never will be necessary, but you get piece of mind from > > knowing that it's there in case you need it. > > If I did back far enough into the archives, back when we first announced > the Board in April 2006, I remember saying something like "even though I > have veto power as the FPL, if I ever have to use it, then it means that > there has already been a colossal failure at some earlier point in our > processes". +2. It's an excellent statement on the quality of our Board members (historically and currently) and the strength of our community that neither of us can imagine actually having to confront that situation. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From poelstra at redhat.com Tue Apr 22 03:29:23 2008 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 20:29:23 -0700 Subject: Elected/Appointed Board In-Reply-To: <1208831810.6654.48.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> References: <507738ef0804201350m141834e4ifa46a9bda00a4bca@mail.gmail.com> <480C14A3.1040601@redhat.com> <507738ef0804210248v1edb3442r509629a73a3073f8@mail.gmail.com> <480C805C.4050702@kanarip.com> <1208807212.384.28.camel@calliope.phig.org> <1208831810.6654.48.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: <480D5B93.6090802@redhat.com> Josh Boyer said the following on 04/21/2008 07:36 PM Pacific Time: > On Mon, 2008-04-21 at 22:26 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: >> On Mon, 21 Apr 2008, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: >> >>> It is also used as a tie-breaker. We had a tie a few weeks ago over >>> (*holds breath*) Codeina/Codec Buddy, right there live in IRC, and >>> Paul had to make the decision. Not sure how often this happens. Was >>> his decision the will of the community just because it potentially >>> aligned with a portion of them? Jon is arguing, aiui, "No." >> We only had a tie because the meeting was on IRC, not all Board members >> were present, and the Board specifically wanted to make a decision AT >> THAT TIME and not put it off until the missing member was present. >> >> With 9 "voting members", there will never be a tie if everyone is there. > > "Abstain" votes are not allowed? > That is something I've been thinking about recently. I think we should remove the option for an elected member of FESCo or the Board to 'abstain' or vote '+0' unless there is a legitimate conflict of interest or reason with merit such as complete unfamiliarity with an area. It seems to me that voting '+0' is really voting '-1' without conviction and that dilutes the process... something along the lines of 'if you chose not to decide you still have made a choice'. I think voting in FESCo and the Board should be straight 'for||opposed' votes. We are electing these people to represent us and at times, work through hard, uninteresting issues that affect the present and future of Fedora. John From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Tue Apr 22 03:34:21 2008 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (seth vidal) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 23:34:21 -0400 Subject: Elected/Appointed Board In-Reply-To: References: <507738ef0804201350m141834e4ifa46a9bda00a4bca@mail.gmail.com> <480C14A3.1040601@redhat.com> <507738ef0804210248v1edb3442r509629a73a3073f8@mail.gmail.com> <480C805C.4050702@kanarip.com> <1208807212.384.28.camel@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <1208835261.3712.34.camel@cutter> On Mon, 2008-04-21 at 22:26 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: > On Mon, 21 Apr 2008, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > > > It is also used as a tie-breaker. We had a tie a few weeks ago over > > (*holds breath*) Codeina/Codec Buddy, right there live in IRC, and > > Paul had to make the decision. Not sure how often this happens. Was > > his decision the will of the community just because it potentially > > aligned with a portion of them? Jon is arguing, aiui, "No." > > We only had a tie because the meeting was on IRC, not all Board members > were present, and the Board specifically wanted to make a decision AT > THAT TIME and not put it off until the missing member was present. > > With 9 "voting members", there will never be a tie if everyone is there. unless there is more than 2 options. -sv From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Tue Apr 22 03:35:54 2008 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (seth vidal) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 23:35:54 -0400 Subject: Elected/Appointed Board In-Reply-To: <480D5B93.6090802@redhat.com> References: <507738ef0804201350m141834e4ifa46a9bda00a4bca@mail.gmail.com> <480C14A3.1040601@redhat.com> <507738ef0804210248v1edb3442r509629a73a3073f8@mail.gmail.com> <480C805C.4050702@kanarip.com> <1208807212.384.28.camel@calliope.phig.org> <1208831810.6654.48.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <480D5B93.6090802@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1208835354.3712.37.camel@cutter> On Mon, 2008-04-21 at 20:29 -0700, John Poelstra wrote: > That is something I've been thinking about recently. > > I think we should remove the option for an elected member of FESCo or > the Board to 'abstain' or vote '+0' unless there is a legitimate > conflict of interest or reason with merit such as complete unfamiliarity > with an area. It seems to me that voting '+0' is really voting '-1' > without conviction and that dilutes the process... something along the > lines of 'if you chose not to decide you still have made a choice'. > Wow, you know it is getting serious when you break out the rush lyrics. -sv From jwboyer at gmail.com Tue Apr 22 10:46:23 2008 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 05:46:23 -0500 Subject: Elected/Appointed Board In-Reply-To: <480D5B93.6090802@redhat.com> References: <507738ef0804201350m141834e4ifa46a9bda00a4bca@mail.gmail.com> <480C14A3.1040601@redhat.com> <507738ef0804210248v1edb3442r509629a73a3073f8@mail.gmail.com> <480C805C.4050702@kanarip.com> <1208807212.384.28.camel@calliope.phig.org> <1208831810.6654.48.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <480D5B93.6090802@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1208861183.6654.50.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> On Mon, 2008-04-21 at 20:29 -0700, John Poelstra wrote: > Josh Boyer said the following on 04/21/2008 07:36 PM Pacific Time: > > On Mon, 2008-04-21 at 22:26 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: > >> On Mon, 21 Apr 2008, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > >> > >>> It is also used as a tie-breaker. We had a tie a few weeks ago over > >>> (*holds breath*) Codeina/Codec Buddy, right there live in IRC, and > >>> Paul had to make the decision. Not sure how often this happens. Was > >>> his decision the will of the community just because it potentially > >>> aligned with a portion of them? Jon is arguing, aiui, "No." > >> We only had a tie because the meeting was on IRC, not all Board members > >> were present, and the Board specifically wanted to make a decision AT > >> THAT TIME and not put it off until the missing member was present. > >> > >> With 9 "voting members", there will never be a tie if everyone is there. > > > > "Abstain" votes are not allowed? > > > > That is something I've been thinking about recently. > > I think we should remove the option for an elected member of FESCo or > the Board to 'abstain' or vote '+0' unless there is a legitimate > conflict of interest or reason with merit such as complete unfamiliarity > with an area. It seems to me that voting '+0' is really voting '-1' Those would be the only two reasons I ever vote '0'. It happens more often than you'd think. josh From bche at redhat.com Fri Apr 25 19:19:38 2008 From: bche at redhat.com (Bryan Che) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 15:19:38 -0400 Subject: naming discussion for Fedora community grid project (previously aka Fedora@Home) In-Reply-To: <48036FD9.7020400@redhat.com> References: <47EC0AB9.70504@redhat.com> <47F69197.8040803@redhat.com> <48036FD9.7020400@redhat.com> Message-ID: <48122ECA.4070505@redhat.com> Hi, we just completed a trademark search on "Sleepwalker," and it turns out that it's already being used for software. So, we're going to have to go with a different name. I've asked for searches on the next highest vote-getters, "Turbine" and "Sandman." Bryan Bryan Che wrote: > I've tallied up the votes, and Fedora Sleepwalker wins! Here are the > results: > > Name +1 0 -1 Total > Cointelligence 0 1 7 -7 > Compunity 0 1 7 -7 > Dream 0.5 4 4 -3.5 > Group Think 1 2 5 -4 > Nightlife 5 2 2 3 > Re-Cycle 1 5 2 -1 > REM Cycle 2 5 1 1 > Sandman 5.5 4 0 5.5 > Shepherd 0 6 2 -2 > Sleepwalker 11 3 2 9 > Trellis 6 3 3 3 > Turbine 8 2 1 7 > > Bryan > > > Bryan Che wrote: >> So, these are the name candidates for the Fedora community grid project: >> >> -Cointelligence >> -Compunity >> -Dream >> -Group Think >> -Nightlife >> -Re-Cycle >> -REM Cycle >> -Sandman >> -Shepherd >> -Sleepwalker >> -Trellis >> -Turbine >> >> Please cast your votes for names: +1/0/-1, and then I'll tabulate and >> declare a winner. The vote is open until 4/11. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Bryan >> >> >> Bryan Che wrote: >>> Hi, as a follow-up to my proposal to create a Fedora community grid >>> project >>> (http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2008-March/msg00022.html) >>> and our discussion at fedora-advisory-board regarding naming >>> (http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2008-March/msg00100.html), >>> I asked John Adams and some of the creative people at Red Hat to help >>> us brainstorm names for this project. They did a great job, and I've >>> attached the output of their work. Note that these names are all >>> just suggestions and starting points for conversation. >>> >>> Please provide input on names. I'll let the conversation go for a >>> week and then put up a consensus vote on 4/4 as to what we will name >>> this project. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Bryan >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board From rc040203 at freenet.de Sat Apr 26 04:26:43 2008 From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 06:26:43 +0200 Subject: naming discussion for Fedora community grid project (previously aka Fedora@Home) In-Reply-To: <48122ECA.4070505@redhat.com> References: <47EC0AB9.70504@redhat.com> <47F69197.8040803@redhat.com> <48036FD9.7020400@redhat.com> <48122ECA.4070505@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1209184003.18692.150.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> On Fri, 2008-04-25 at 15:19 -0400, Bryan Che wrote: > Hi, we just completed a trademark search on "Sleepwalker," and it turns > out that it's already being used for software. So, we're going to have > to go with a different name. I've asked for searches on the next > highest vote-getters, "Turbine" and "Sandman." I am not sure if you are aware that "Turbine" had been a popular name for sport club in former Communist East Europe. As such it comes along with associations related to the "decline of the Communist System" in many parts of Europe. Ralf From luis at tieguy.org Sat Apr 26 17:44:00 2008 From: luis at tieguy.org (Luis Villa) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 13:44:00 -0400 Subject: naming discussion for Fedora community grid project (previously aka Fedora@Home) In-Reply-To: <1209184003.18692.150.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> References: <47EC0AB9.70504@redhat.com> <47F69197.8040803@redhat.com> <48036FD9.7020400@redhat.com> <48122ECA.4070505@redhat.com> <1209184003.18692.150.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> Message-ID: <2cb10c440804261044j375fa5e8xd77b7fdb4661ca4e@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 12:26 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > On Fri, 2008-04-25 at 15:19 -0400, Bryan Che wrote: > > Hi, we just completed a trademark search on "Sleepwalker," and it turns > > out that it's already being used for software. So, we're going to have > > to go with a different name. I've asked for searches on the next > > highest vote-getters, "Turbine" and "Sandman." > > I am not sure if you are aware that "Turbine" had been a popular name > for sport club in former Communist East Europe. As such it comes along > with associations related to the "decline of the Communist System" in > many parts of Europe. More relevantly, it may or may not be a registered mark, but is definitely already in use in software; Free web service software, even. http://turbine.apache.org/ Luis From poelstra at redhat.com Sun Apr 27 03:23:33 2008 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 20:23:33 -0700 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2008-APR-22 Message-ID: <4813F1B5.1000304@redhat.com> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/Meetings/2008-04-22 == Roll Call == Attendees: John Poelstra, Seth Vidal, Paul Frields, Steve Dickson, Bill Nottingham, Karsten Wade, Dennis Gilmore, and Matt Domsch Regrets: Chris Aillon, Bob McWirther, Jef Spaleta == Followup to Previous Business == === Red Hat Summit and FUDCon (2008-04-08) === * Will reuse survey for 2008 FUDCon RDU for FUDCon in Boston * Paul Frields has made arrangements with contact at Red Hat to host survey * Survey will be ready the first day of FUDCon so that people can take it at any time * If people would like to add additional questions they should request them at: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing/Surveys === Board Succession (2008-04-15) === * Fedora Board election thirty days after GA of Fedora 9 * Seats opening up: * Appointed: Seth, Karsten, Steve * Voted: Chris, Jef, Dennis * Red Hat has agreed that Fedora Board can move to a composition of 4 Red Hat Appointed + 5 Community Voted * Fedora Project Leader (Red Hat Employee) still maintains final veto power over board decisions === Spins (2008-01-29) === * '''FOLLOWUP on 2008-04-01''' * https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JefSpaleta/SpinReleaseProcessProposal * No dissenting votes on proposal * Concerns about how and where spins will be built and interactions with SELinux * OWNER: Karsten Wade * ACTION: Organize a special meeting to discuss SELinux issues and go-forward plan * '''FOLLOWUP on 2008-04-08''' * No meeting has taken place or been scheduled but Seth has talked to many of the applicable parties * OWNER: Karsten Wade * ACTIONS: * Move discussion to fedora-selinux-list * Pre-announce that discussion about selinux and spins will be taking place on selinux-list by announcing on fedora-devel-list. * '''FOLLOWUP on 2008-04-15''' * Confirmed that the right people are on the mailing list * Starting discussion today * '''FOLLOWUP on 2008-04-22''' * Continue discussion on fedora-selinux list * Would like to have spins completely working in a production environment by GA of Fedora 10 * Target ability to create spins in a live environment around time of F10 beta * All milestones contingent on project load of Infrastructure team * Consider organizing group of rpm and selinux people at FUDCon in Boston == Future Business == * Next meeting April 29, 2008; 14:00 EDT From smooge at gmail.com Sun Apr 27 06:17:26 2008 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 00:17:26 -0600 Subject: naming discussion for Fedora community grid project (previously aka Fedora@Home) In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440804261044j375fa5e8xd77b7fdb4661ca4e@mail.gmail.com> References: <47EC0AB9.70504@redhat.com> <47F69197.8040803@redhat.com> <48036FD9.7020400@redhat.com> <48122ECA.4070505@redhat.com> <1209184003.18692.150.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <2cb10c440804261044j375fa5e8xd77b7fdb4661ca4e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <80d7e4090804262317q594dd756yaff6b5728b3593e7@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 11:44 AM, Luis Villa wrote: > On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 12:26 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > > On Fri, 2008-04-25 at 15:19 -0400, Bryan Che wrote: > > > Hi, we just completed a trademark search on "Sleepwalker," and it turns > > > out that it's already being used for software. So, we're going to have > > > to go with a different name. I've asked for searches on the next > > > highest vote-getters, "Turbine" and "Sandman." > > > > I am not sure if you are aware that "Turbine" had been a popular name > > for sport club in former Communist East Europe. As such it comes along > > with associations related to the "decline of the Communist System" in > > many parts of Europe. > > More relevantly, it may or may not be a registered mark, but is > definitely already in use in software; Free web service software, > even. http://turbine.apache.org/ > Sandman was to be used as a Software game for the DC comics character and movie. Trying to find non-trademarked terms in the field of software is not as easy as it used to be. I would expect that you would need to go with the 2 less used words put together (Lexus Nexus, etc). Dream/Sleep Cycle, Dream/Sleep Shephard, Dream/Sleep Turbine,. DreamMan, Sand Cycle.. -- Stephen J Smoogen. -- CSIRT/Linux System Administrator How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice" From bche at redhat.com Tue Apr 29 13:23:16 2008 From: bche at redhat.com (Bryan Che) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 09:23:16 -0400 Subject: naming discussion for Fedora community grid project (previously aka Fedora@Home) In-Reply-To: <48122ECA.4070505@redhat.com> References: <47EC0AB9.70504@redhat.com> <47F69197.8040803@redhat.com> <48036FD9.7020400@redhat.com> <48122ECA.4070505@redhat.com> Message-ID: <48172144.8010304@redhat.com> It turns out that "Turbine" and "Sandman" are taken too. So, John Adams is going to help us out again and get some additional names screened from a legal standpoint. Bryan Bryan Che wrote: > Hi, we just completed a trademark search on "Sleepwalker," and it turns > out that it's already being used for software. So, we're going to have > to go with a different name. I've asked for searches on the next > highest vote-getters, "Turbine" and "Sandman." > > Bryan > > Bryan Che wrote: >> I've tallied up the votes, and Fedora Sleepwalker wins! Here are the >> results: >> >> Name +1 0 -1 Total >> Cointelligence 0 1 7 -7 >> Compunity 0 1 7 -7 >> Dream 0.5 4 4 -3.5 >> Group Think 1 2 5 -4 >> Nightlife 5 2 2 3 >> Re-Cycle 1 5 2 -1 >> REM Cycle 2 5 1 1 >> Sandman 5.5 4 0 5.5 >> Shepherd 0 6 2 -2 >> Sleepwalker 11 3 2 9 >> Trellis 6 3 3 3 >> Turbine 8 2 1 7 >> >> Bryan >> >> >> Bryan Che wrote: >>> So, these are the name candidates for the Fedora community grid project: >>> >>> -Cointelligence >>> -Compunity >>> -Dream >>> -Group Think >>> -Nightlife >>> -Re-Cycle >>> -REM Cycle >>> -Sandman >>> -Shepherd >>> -Sleepwalker >>> -Trellis >>> -Turbine >>> >>> Please cast your votes for names: +1/0/-1, and then I'll tabulate and >>> declare a winner. The vote is open until 4/11. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Bryan >>> >>> >>> Bryan Che wrote: >>>> Hi, as a follow-up to my proposal to create a Fedora community grid >>>> project >>>> (http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2008-March/msg00022.html) >>>> and our discussion at fedora-advisory-board regarding naming >>>> (http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2008-March/msg00100.html), >>>> I asked John Adams and some of the creative people at Red Hat to >>>> help us brainstorm names for this project. They did a great job, >>>> and I've attached the output of their work. Note that these names >>>> are all just suggestions and starting points for conversation. >>>> >>>> Please provide input on names. I'll let the conversation go for a >>>> week and then put up a consensus vote on 4/4 as to what we will name >>>> this project. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Bryan >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> fedora-advisory-board mailing list >> fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com >> http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Apr 29 16:27:05 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 08:27:05 -0800 Subject: naming discussion for Fedora community grid project (previously aka Fedora@Home) In-Reply-To: <48172144.8010304@redhat.com> References: <47EC0AB9.70504@redhat.com> <47F69197.8040803@redhat.com> <48036FD9.7020400@redhat.com> <48122ECA.4070505@redhat.com> <48172144.8010304@redhat.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910804290927o38bdb354j7bb7fea4c58be58@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 5:23 AM, Bryan Che wrote: > It turns out that "Turbine" and "Sandman" are taken too. So, John Adams is > going to help us out again and get some additional names screened from a > legal standpoint. Trellis is taken? how about 'smelter'? As in a machine which fuses raw materials together and produces refined metals.. like a copper smelter. We'd be a computational smelter. On the ore theme... how about 'pestle'? Our cpus grind away like pestles, pulverizing intractably large problems into grains of usable information. -jef From stickster at gmail.com Tue Apr 29 17:26:40 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 13:26:40 -0400 Subject: Fedora 7 End of Life Message-ID: <1209490000.3080.136.camel@localhost.localdomain> REMINDER: --------- Fedora 7 will reach its End of Life for official updates on Friday, June 13 -- one month after release of Fedora 9. Fedora 8 will remain supported until one month after the release of Fedora 10, or approximately the end of November 2008. For more information on the Fedora lifecycle, refer to: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/LifeCycle -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Tue Apr 29 18:16:48 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 20:16:48 +0200 Subject: Fedora 7 End of Life Message-ID: <001001c8aa25$30cde190$ba00000a@grecom.local> REMINDER: --------- Fedora 7 will reach its End of Life for official updates on Friday, June 13 -- one month after release of Fedora 9. Fedora 8 will remain supported until one month after the release of Fedora 10, or approximately the end of November 2008. For more information on the Fedora lifecycle, refer to: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/LifeCycle -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: -------------- next part -------------- -- fedora-announce-list mailing list fedora-announce-list at redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-announce-list From stickster at gmail.com Tue Apr 29 18:16:48 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 20:16:48 +0200 Subject: Fedora 7 End of Life Message-ID: <000c01c8aa25$30cb7090$ba00000a@grecom.local> REMINDER: --------- Fedora 7 will reach its End of Life for official updates on Friday, June 13 -- one month after release of Fedora 9. Fedora 8 will remain supported until one month after the release of Fedora 10, or approximately the end of November 2008. For more information on the Fedora lifecycle, refer to: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/LifeCycle -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: -------------- next part -------------- -- fedora-announce-list mailing list fedora-announce-list at redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-announce-list From stickster at gmail.com Wed Apr 30 12:29:05 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 08:29:05 -0400 Subject: Board public meeting, 1800 UTC 2008-05-06 Message-ID: <1209558545.549.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> ?The Board is holding its monthly public meeting on Tuesday, 06 May 2008, at 1800 UTC on IRC Freenode. The public is invited to do the following: * Join #fedora-board-meeting to see the Board's conversation. This channel is read-only for non-Board members. * Join #fedora-board-public to discuss topics and post questions. This channel is read/write for everyone. The moderator will direct questions from the #fedora-board-public channel to the Board members at #fedora-board-meeting. This should limit confusion and make sure our logs are useful to everyone. Rather than set an agenda for the meeting, we would like to start with the topic of the upcoming Fedora 9 release. In particular, how has this release differed -- improved or regressed -- from previous releases? The meeting will be open, however, to any questions from the community. ?The Board has set aside the first meeting of each month as a public "town hall" style meeting. We are hoping to do an audio-based meeting at some point in the near future when resources allow. The Infrastructure team continues to make solid progress on this front. We look forward to seeing you at the meeting. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: