From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Fri Aug 1 01:15:59 2008 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (seth vidal) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 21:15:59 -0400 Subject: taking down old torrents In-Reply-To: References: <1217535911.3036.16.camel@rosebud> Message-ID: <1217553359.3036.26.camel@rosebud> On Thu, 2008-07-31 at 16:52 -0500, Mike McGrath wrote: > On Thu, 31 Jul 2008, seth vidal wrote: > > > Hi folks, > > I've been skimming our torrented data and all the old fudcon-videos are > > pretty much dead at this point. Any suggestions on: > > > > 1. if it is okay to take them down? > > 2. where we should archive them? > > > > I figured #2 is really an infrastructure issue but number 1 is something > > else. > > -sv > > > > > 2) aren't duplicate copies of those isos available on a mirror somewhere? > isos, sure - I'm talking about the videos of fudcon. -sv From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Aug 1 01:21:39 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 06:51:39 +0530 Subject: taking down old torrents In-Reply-To: <1217535911.3036.16.camel@rosebud> References: <1217535911.3036.16.camel@rosebud> Message-ID: <48926523.7070704@fedoraproject.org> seth vidal wrote: > Hi folks, > I've been skimming our torrented data and all the old fudcon-videos are > pretty much dead at this point. Any suggestions on: > > 1. if it is okay to take them down? > 2. where we should archive them? archive.fedoraproject.org? Rahul From stickster at gmail.com Fri Aug 1 01:37:46 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 21:37:46 -0400 Subject: taking down old torrents In-Reply-To: <1217553359.3036.26.camel@rosebud> References: <1217535911.3036.16.camel@rosebud> <1217553359.3036.26.camel@rosebud> Message-ID: <1217554666.21786.2.camel@victoria> On Thu, 2008-07-31 at 21:15 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > On Thu, 2008-07-31 at 16:52 -0500, Mike McGrath wrote: > > On Thu, 31 Jul 2008, seth vidal wrote: > > > > > Hi folks, > > > I've been skimming our torrented data and all the old fudcon-videos are > > > pretty much dead at this point. Any suggestions on: > > > > > > 1. if it is okay to take them down? > > > 2. where we should archive them? > > > > > > I figured #2 is really an infrastructure issue but number 1 is something > > > else. > > > -sv > > > > > > > > > 2) aren't duplicate copies of those isos available on a mirror somewhere? > > > > isos, sure - I'm talking about the videos of fudcon. +1 on removing 'em. -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Aug 1 01:39:47 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 07:09:47 +0530 Subject: Fedora Project Board Recap 2008-07-29 In-Reply-To: References: <1217547182.10873.41.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <48926963.8090602@fedoraproject.org> Jon Stanley wrote: > On Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 7:33 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > >> # FESCo should track bug 438225 since this falls into their mandate > > So tracking :) > >> # ACTION :: Paul - Request contributor to produce statistics for review >> queue on a regular basis in Fedora Weekly news > > This should be trivial to provide as a weekly report, using > infrastructure that I already have around (and some new stuff for more > interesting statistics - like the number of bugs blocking FE-LEGAL, > FE-NEEDSPONSOR, etc). Where should it go? Would it be possible to track new packages every week that gets into the different Fedora releases and EPEL too using the same infrastructure? Rahul From stickster at gmail.com Fri Aug 1 02:27:04 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 22:27:04 -0400 Subject: Fedora Project Board Recap 2008-07-29 In-Reply-To: References: <1217547182.10873.41.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <1217557624.21786.22.camel@victoria> On Thu, 2008-07-31 at 19:54 -0400, Jon Stanley wrote: > On Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 7:33 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > > # FESCo should track bug 438225 since this falls into their mandate > > So tracking :) > > > # ACTION :: Paul - Request contributor to produce statistics for review > > queue on a regular basis in Fedora Weekly news > > This should be trivial to provide as a weekly report, using > infrastructure that I already have around (and some new stuff for more > interesting statistics - like the number of bugs blocking FE-LEGAL, > FE-NEEDSPONSOR, etc). Where should it go? There's a Development beat in FWN which is run by Oisin Feeley. I'd suggest coordinating a location with him, and then he can simply include that information in the beat. Over time it would be a very good idea to grow a history of this data to graph. > > # ACTION :: Karsten - On Docs team, drive priority wiki gardening of the > > packaging and package review guidelines to make contributor uptake > > easier > > Issue is that FPC owns these pages and has them locked down (for good > reason - we don't want to say that proprietary software is OK in > Fedora, for example - since those pages dictate official policy that's > set by FPC) Right, these could easily be copied and repaired elsewhere, and moved into place upon acceptance by the packaging committee/FESCo. -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From tibbs at math.uh.edu Fri Aug 1 09:31:26 2008 From: tibbs at math.uh.edu (Jason Tibbitts) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 04:31:26 -0500 Subject: Fedora Project Board Recap 2008-07-29 In-Reply-To: <1217547182.10873.41.camel@victoria> References: <1217547182.10873.41.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <4892D7EE.4010306@math.uh.edu> Paul W. Frields wrote: > == Package Reviews (NEW) == > * Board wants to ensure FESCo is driving interest in package reviews Please note that I still intend to set up a package review SIG, but note also that I did not run for FESCo election this cycle (i.e. I'm no longer on FESCo as of last week) and am still on vacation in the furthest reaches of Norway for the better part of another week. > ** Queue is very lengthy, over 800 packages at last count The report at http://fedoraproject.org/PackageReviewStatus/NEW.html gives a reasonable queue size, since it doesn't count unreviewable packages (either those which are marked as being not ready or those which depend on other packages which have yet to be reviewed, at least for the cases where the ticket dependencies are set up properly). I see that the queue has gotten a good bit larger over the last week or so; it seems that we have had another Java package bomb. One interesting thing to note about this page is the set of tickets marked in green; these are from contributors who require sponsorship. Being somewhat out of touch I do not know how far the maintainer containment work has come, but I know that work is ongoing to alter our systems and procedures to make it simpler to get those contributors sponsored. Also note that the majority of that report is still comprised of merge reviews, which have a different set of associated problems. Three that come to mind are: 1) the difficulty of keeping a person who is still responsible for the ticket CC'd, 2) the tickets were opened by nobody and assigned to nobody, so they don't show up in any report that the package maintainer might generally run, and 3) since the packages are already in the distro, there's no real drive for anyone to actually respond to merge review commentary even if the proper people are CC'd on the ticket. The first can be handled by someone digging into the packagedb and updating CC lists, although that sounds a bit painful. Perhaps we could leverage the new pkg-owner stuff for that and #2 as well (if we have a way to change the opener of a ticket) but I don't know now feasible that is a this point. I cannot offer additional suggestions on #3. Either we (and by that I mean one of the committees I'm not on) need to officially de-prioritize merge reviews or figure out how to improve maintainer response. > # ACTION :: Paul - Request contributor to produce statistics for review > queue on a regular basis in Fedora Weekly news This could be handled by the SIG once its up and running. > # ACTION :: Karsten - On Docs team, drive priority wiki gardening of the > packaging and package review guidelines to make contributor uptake > easier I certainly can't argue with that. Such documentation is not my forte although once the SIG is running we can hope to have someone willing to work with the docs team on this. - J< From aoliva at redhat.com Fri Aug 1 19:53:26 2008 From: aoliva at redhat.com (Alexandre Oliva) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 16:53:26 -0300 Subject: supporting closed source operating systems? In-Reply-To: <20080713163012.GB18161@victor.nirvana> (Axel Thimm's message of "Sun\, 13 Jul 2008 19\:30\:12 +0300") References: <20080708155820.GA17077@amd.home.annexia.org> <20080709215757.GC3755@victor.nirvana> <20080710212352.GA21234@victor.nirvana> <20080713153401.GB1120@amd.home.annexia.org> <20080713163012.GB18161@victor.nirvana> Message-ID: On Jul 13, 2008, Axel Thimm wrote: > So the issue is a political one, not a technical one. Supporting > libvirt for running Fedora under Windows is one thing, supporting > increased productivity on Windows another. FTR, if we were to pursue the latter, I think it might make more sense, at least from my perception of Red Hat's perspective, to join forces with Cygwin, maybe even bring it into the Fedora brand/umbrella. -- Alexandre Oliva http://www.lsd.ic.unicamp.br/~oliva/ Free Software Evangelist oliva@{lsd.ic.unicamp.br, gnu.org} FSFLA Board Member ?S? Libre! => http://www.fsfla.org/ Red Hat Compiler Engineer aoliva@{redhat.com, gcc.gnu.org} From kwade at redhat.com Sat Aug 2 08:51:30 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2008 01:51:30 -0700 Subject: Fedora Project Board Recap 2008-07-29 In-Reply-To: <1217557624.21786.22.camel@victoria> References: <1217547182.10873.41.camel@victoria> <1217557624.21786.22.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <1217667090.13450.119.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Thu, 2008-07-31 at 22:27 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Thu, 2008-07-31 at 19:54 -0400, Jon Stanley wrote: > > On Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 7:33 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > > # ACTION :: Karsten - On Docs team, drive priority wiki gardening of the > > > packaging and package review guidelines to make contributor uptake > > > easier > > > > Issue is that FPC owns these pages and has them locked down (for good > > reason - we don't want to say that proprietary software is OK in > > Fedora, for example - since those pages dictate official policy that's > > set by FPC) > > Right, these could easily be copied and repaired elsewhere, and moved > into place upon acceptance by the packaging committee/FESCo. Note that the action was a result of a request made by Spot in that actual meeting. When I referred to hearing from multiple reports that the front page for packaging could be less confusing, without needing to touch the guidelines themselves, Spot agreed and said he would be very interested in seeing some work on cleaning up the pages. As Paul said, the methodology in cases like this is to work up a draft in a different location (e.g. User:Foo/Packaging_Guidelines_Draft.) Since taking care of our contributors is important, and packagers are a major contributor group, it seemed clear that the wiki gardeners need to make this a top priority task. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Sr. Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kanarip at kanarip.com Sat Aug 2 09:16:08 2008 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2008 11:16:08 +0200 Subject: Fedora Project Board Recap 2008-07-29 In-Reply-To: <1217547182.10873.41.camel@victoria> References: <1217547182.10873.41.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <489425D8.6010409@kanarip.com> Paul W. Frields wrote: > = Fedora Project Board Meeting :: Tuesday 2008-07-29 = > (...snip...) > == Education Spin (NEW) == > * Education spin trademark usage approval requested here: > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2008-July/msg00141.html > ** Only Fedora software included > ** This spin is a partnership between previously disparate groups > RESOLUTION: > # Board unanimously approves Education spin for use of "Fedora" marks. > Sebastian, ^^ there you go. This is the moment where your feature page becomes the point of reporting progress in any of the outstanding issues (kdm/generic-logos is now a moot point but I think the bug can still be pursued for obvious other reasons?), and to add it to the CategoryFeaturesProposedF10 (iirc). Thanks for your great work ;-) Kind regards, Jeroen van Meeuwen -kanarip From jkeating at redhat.com Sat Aug 2 14:49:02 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2008 10:49:02 -0400 Subject: Fedora Project Board Recap 2008-07-29 In-Reply-To: <489425D8.6010409@kanarip.com> References: <1217547182.10873.41.camel@victoria> <489425D8.6010409@kanarip.com> Message-ID: <1217688542.29433.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2008-08-02 at 11:16 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > Sebastian, ^^ there you go. > > This is the moment where your feature page becomes the point of > reporting progress in any of the outstanding issues (kdm/generic-logos > is now a moot point but I think the bug can still be pursued for obvious > other reasons?), and to add it to the CategoryFeaturesProposedF10 (iirc). > > Thanks for your great work ;-) I could have sworn that the feature process this time around would generate a tracking bug for each feature, which would then be attached to the release blocker bug, providing a very easy breakdown of release threatening bugs by feature. > -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jonstanley at gmail.com Sat Aug 2 18:56:38 2008 From: jonstanley at gmail.com (Jon Stanley) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2008 14:56:38 -0400 Subject: Fedora Project Board Recap 2008-07-29 In-Reply-To: <1217688542.29433.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1217547182.10873.41.camel@victoria> <489425D8.6010409@kanarip.com> <1217688542.29433.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 2, 2008 at 10:49 AM, Jesse Keating wrote: > I could have sworn that the feature process this time around would > generate a tracking bug for each feature, which would then be attached > to the release blocker bug, providing a very easy breakdown of release > threatening bugs by feature. Yeah, I thought so too. Whose responsibility is it to create the tracker? The feature owner? FESCo once the feature is approved? The Feature Wrangler at some point? I think that the problem here is that we set down a guideline without specifying clear procedures as to how to implement that guideline, so everyone thinks that the "other guy" is doing it. From jwboyer at gmail.com Sat Aug 2 19:23:53 2008 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2008 15:23:53 -0400 Subject: Fedora Project Board Recap 2008-07-29 In-Reply-To: References: <1217547182.10873.41.camel@victoria> <489425D8.6010409@kanarip.com> <1217688542.29433.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1217705033.2328.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2008-08-02 at 14:56 -0400, Jon Stanley wrote: > On Sat, Aug 2, 2008 at 10:49 AM, Jesse Keating wrote: > > > I could have sworn that the feature process this time around would > > generate a tracking bug for each feature, which would then be attached > > to the release blocker bug, providing a very easy breakdown of release > > threatening bugs by feature. > > Yeah, I thought so too. Whose responsibility is it to create the > tracker? The feature owner? FESCo once the feature is approved? The > Feature Wrangler at some point? I think that the problem here is that > we set down a guideline without specifying clear procedures as to how > to implement that guideline, so everyone thinks that the "other guy" > is doing it. The Feature Wrangler (John Poelstra) is supposed to do it upon Feature approval by FESCo. IIRC, John is on vacation. There is no problem that needs fixing, other than perhaps having a backup for John which is something that should probably happen anyway. josh From stickster at gmail.com Sat Aug 2 20:44:47 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2008 16:44:47 -0400 Subject: Fedora Project Board Recap 2008-07-29 In-Reply-To: <1217705033.2328.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1217547182.10873.41.camel@victoria> <489425D8.6010409@kanarip.com> <1217688542.29433.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1217705033.2328.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1217709887.20329.13.camel@victoria> On Sat, 2008-08-02 at 15:23 -0400, Josh Boyer wrote: > On Sat, 2008-08-02 at 14:56 -0400, Jon Stanley wrote: > > On Sat, Aug 2, 2008 at 10:49 AM, Jesse Keating wrote: > > > > > I could have sworn that the feature process this time around would > > > generate a tracking bug for each feature, which would then be attached > > > to the release blocker bug, providing a very easy breakdown of release > > > threatening bugs by feature. > > > > Yeah, I thought so too. Whose responsibility is it to create the > > tracker? The feature owner? FESCo once the feature is approved? The > > Feature Wrangler at some point? I think that the problem here is that > > we set down a guideline without specifying clear procedures as to how > > to implement that guideline, so everyone thinks that the "other guy" > > is doing it. > > The Feature Wrangler (John Poelstra) is supposed to do it upon Feature > approval by FESCo. IIRC, John is on vacation. There is no problem that > needs fixing, other than perhaps having a backup for John which is > something that should probably happen anyway. I did email John about this -- and yes, he has been on vacation. I'll help him get the bugs up to date next week, seeing as how I have a vested interest in the feature progression. At the same time, we'll make it clearer who's got John's back in the future. :-) -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From poelstra at redhat.com Mon Aug 4 23:12:46 2008 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2008 16:12:46 -0700 Subject: Fedora Project Board Recap 2008-07-29 In-Reply-To: References: <1217547182.10873.41.camel@victoria> <489425D8.6010409@kanarip.com> <1217688542.29433.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <48978CEE.1070907@redhat.com> Jon Stanley said the following on 08/02/2008 11:56 AM Pacific Time: > On Sat, Aug 2, 2008 at 10:49 AM, Jesse Keating wrote: > >> I could have sworn that the feature process this time around would >> generate a tracking bug for each feature, which would then be attached >> to the release blocker bug, providing a very easy breakdown of release >> threatening bugs by feature. > > Yeah, I thought so too. Whose responsibility is it to create the > tracker? The feature owner? FESCo once the feature is approved? The > Feature Wrangler at some point? I think that the problem here is that > we set down a guideline without specifying clear procedures as to how > to implement that guideline, so everyone thinks that the "other guy" > is doing it. > I agreed to create the tracking bug for features that were accepted during the feature policy review for Fedora 10. Just to make sure we're all on the same page.... I will create a new bug for the associated component and assign a keyword of "Tracking" and have it block the F10Beta and F10 Blocker? Does this make sense? John From kanarip at kanarip.com Mon Aug 4 23:20:46 2008 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 01:20:46 +0200 Subject: Fedora Project Board Recap 2008-07-29 In-Reply-To: <48978CEE.1070907@redhat.com> References: <1217547182.10873.41.camel@victoria> <489425D8.6010409@kanarip.com> <1217688542.29433.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <48978CEE.1070907@redhat.com> Message-ID: <48978ECE.6070608@kanarip.com> John Poelstra wrote: > Jon Stanley said the following on 08/02/2008 11:56 AM Pacific Time: >> On Sat, Aug 2, 2008 at 10:49 AM, Jesse Keating >> wrote: >> >>> I could have sworn that the feature process this time around would >>> generate a tracking bug for each feature, which would then be attached >>> to the release blocker bug, providing a very easy breakdown of release >>> threatening bugs by feature. >> >> Yeah, I thought so too. Whose responsibility is it to create the >> tracker? The feature owner? FESCo once the feature is approved? The >> Feature Wrangler at some point? I think that the problem here is that >> we set down a guideline without specifying clear procedures as to how >> to implement that guideline, so everyone thinks that the "other guy" >> is doing it. >> > > I agreed to create the tracking bug for features that were accepted > during the feature policy review for Fedora 10. > > Just to make sure we're all on the same page.... > > I will create a new bug for the associated component and assign a > keyword of "Tracking" and have it block the F10Beta and F10 Blocker? > Does this make sense? > Well, for it to even become a feature, it needs to go through the Proposed Feature process and be ACK'ed by FESCo, for which it needs the Board's trademark approval, right? It just got through that first stage, is what I'm thinking. Kind regards, Jeroen van Meeuwen -kanarip From matt at domsch.com Mon Aug 4 23:31:46 2008 From: matt at domsch.com (Matt Domsch) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 18:31:46 -0500 Subject: Fedora Project Board Recap 2008-07-29 In-Reply-To: <48978ECE.6070608@kanarip.com> References: <1217547182.10873.41.camel@victoria> <489425D8.6010409@kanarip.com> <1217688542.29433.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <48978CEE.1070907@redhat.com> <48978ECE.6070608@kanarip.com> Message-ID: <20080804233146.GA26984@domsch.com> On Tue, Aug 05, 2008 at 01:20:46AM +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > Well, for it to even become a feature, it needs to go through the > Proposed Feature process and be ACK'ed by FESCo, for which it needs the > Board's trademark approval, right? I don't believe trademark approval is needed for a feature. -Matt From stickster at gmail.com Mon Aug 4 23:32:18 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2008 19:32:18 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board IRC meeting 1800 UTC 2008-08-12 Message-ID: <1217892738.24068.39.camel@victoria> ?The Board is holding its monthly public meeting on Tuesday, 12 August 2008, at 1800 UTC on IRC Freenode. The public is invited to do the following: * Join #fedora-board-meeting to see the Board's conversation. This channel is read-only for non-Board members. * Join #fedora-board-public to discuss topics and post questions. This channel is read/write for everyone. The moderator will direct questions from the #fedora-board-public channel to the Board members at #fedora-board-meeting. This shouldlimit confusion and make sure our logs are useful to everyone. ?The Board has set aside one meeting of each month as a public "town hall" style meeting. We are *still* hoping to hold an audio-based meeting at some point in the near future using some of the new resources being developed by the Infrastructure team. More news on this will be forthcoming. We look forward to seeing you at the meeting. -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jkeating at redhat.com Tue Aug 5 19:41:16 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 15:41:16 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Question: Will Fedora 10 Contain KDE 3.5.10 or Not?] Message-ID: <1217965276.19808.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> Fun email in my inbox. Would the KDE sig care to respond? -------- Forwarded Message -------- From: S.W. Bobcat To: jkeating at redhat.com Subject: Question: Will Fedora 10 Contain KDE 3.5.10 or Not? Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 19:38:29 +0000 Dear Mr. Keating: I would appreciate an answer to a question: will Fedora 10 include KDE 3.5.10?? As you are probably aware there is considerable anger out in the community over the KDE 4 issue. I have been a loyal Fedora user since Fedora 1. I am also a loyal KDE user. I was outraged when Fedora 9 was released not only because it included only KDE 4.0, but the responses from the Fedora devels which a best could be described as arrogant, and at worst non careing. You do not build a community with that type of attitude. From what I have read KDE 4.1 -- which I suspect is going to be one of the "features" in Fedora 10 -- still sucks, only less that KDE 4.0. There is some controversy as weither Fedora 10 will also include KDE 3.5.10. All the major distros have included KDE 3.5.x as an option / or in addition to, KDE 4.x. I am hoping -- praying -- that the Fedora Project will include KDE 3.5.10 in Fedora 10. There is no excuse to putting users through the ringers or make them jump through hoops for them to be able to use KDE 3.5.x simply for them to be able to use the GUI of their choice. The Fedora Project should not view their users simply as gueina pigs for Red Hat and RHEL. I have no problem testing out new software etc so long as I have the ability to default back to a stable and mature version of said software. KDE 3.5.10 should be included as a "feature" in Fedora 10 simple because KDE 4.1 is still nowhere close to being ready for prime time, and still lacks many of the customization features of KDE 3.5.x While I may want to tinker with KDE 4.x and evaluate it some more, at the current time I do not want to rely only on an unproven, buggy GUI no matter how "great" its potential. Until KDE 4.x becomes more stable and more customizable, then both KDE 3.5.x and KDE 4.x should be included in Fedora 10 and future releases ( which probably translates to Fedora 12 or 13 which is the expected time frame for KDE 4.3 or 4.4 release). I hope you and/or the Fedora Project leader will address this question long before Fedora 10 is released. Sincerely yours, R.H. Ruskin 'I am the Cat who walks by himself, and all places are alike to me." -- Rudyard Kipling -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From rdieter at math.unl.edu Tue Aug 5 20:00:54 2008 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 15:00:54 -0500 Subject: Will Fedora 10 Contain KDE 3.5.10 or Not? In-Reply-To: <1217965276.19808.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1217965276.19808.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4898B176.6060202@math.unl.edu> Jesse Keating wrote: > Fun email in my inbox. Would the KDE sig care to respond? I'll send something better privately, but here's the gist of it... > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > From: ... > To: jkeating at redhat.com > Subject: Question: Will Fedora 10 Contain KDE 3.5.10 or Not? ... > I would appreciate an answer to a question: will Fedora 10 include KDE > 3.5.10?? ... I've heard that question a lot... http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/KDE4FAQ > KDE 3.5.10 should be included as a "feature" in Fedora 10 Fact is, it might be a fun project to make a KDE3 desktop that installs and functions parallel to other DE's in Fedora (including KDE4). But, that's not something that the Fedora KDE SIG is currently interested in pursuing. Simply put, the KDE SIG is focussing all efforts on KDE4. We will happily provide helpful advice and encouragement, but it needs to be someone else who puts in the hard work, time, effort to make it happen. -- Rex From stickster at gmail.com Tue Aug 5 20:12:53 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 20:12:53 +0000 Subject: Will Fedora 10 Contain KDE 3.5.10 or Not? In-Reply-To: <4898B176.6060202@math.unl.edu> References: <1217965276.19808.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4898B176.6060202@math.unl.edu> Message-ID: <1217967173.6981.130.camel@victoria> On Tue, 2008-08-05 at 15:00 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote: > Jesse Keating wrote: > > Fun email in my inbox. Would the KDE sig care to respond? > > I'll send something better privately, but here's the gist of it... > > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > > From: ... > > To: jkeating at redhat.com > > Subject: Question: Will Fedora 10 Contain KDE 3.5.10 or Not? > ... > > I would appreciate an answer to a question: will Fedora 10 include KDE > > 3.5.10?? ... > > I've heard that question a lot... > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/KDE4FAQ > > > KDE 3.5.10 should be included as a "feature" in Fedora 10 > > Fact is, it might be a fun project to make a KDE3 desktop that installs > and functions parallel to other DE's in Fedora (including KDE4). But, > that's not something that the Fedora KDE SIG is currently interested in > pursuing. Simply put, the KDE SIG is focussing all efforts on KDE4. We > will happily provide helpful advice and encouragement, but it needs to > be someone else who puts in the hard work, time, effort to make it happen. You make a great point Rex -- this is actually an *opportunity* for interested community members to roll up their sleeves and get involved. Isn't that, in fact, how the KDE SIG got started in the first place? :-) I was contacted not too long ago for a statement about KDE 4 in Fedora 9, and the criticism its developers have received for the changes they've made to the platform. Unfortunately, none of my statement was used in the article. (Too long-winded?) But here's what I said: ''' I'm very proud of the contributors that made KDE 4 a reality in Fedora 9. The KDE team consists of volunteers and Red Hat engineers, who all pitched in to make this happen. They scoped the work, developed packages, filed and fixed bugs upstream, and talked to the community openly about the process all along the way. Of course, they're continuing that work in Fedora 9 and in our development branch for Fedora 10. KDE's status in the Fedora distribution has come a very long way, and these contributors are largely responsible for that progress. Fedora, as a project, is firmly devoted to advancing the state of free and open source software. As part of that mission, every six months or so we issue a new release of our distribution that promotes leading-edge technologies like KDE 4. By pushing innovations out to wider audiences, we are directly benefiting the upstream communities that produce them. The technologies thereby gain broader audiences, garner more feedback, and improve more quickly. In other words, we try to leverage the power, promote the ideals, and live the spirit of free and open source software.[1] According to TrollTech's site, the QT3 toolkit reached its maintenance end of life on July 1, 2007.[2] If we had dropped back to another KDE 3.x release in Fedora 9, it would have meant delivering to users and developers a platform built on old, unmaintained libraries.[3] Because in general we don't do major updates midway through a release, by the time Fedora 9 reaches the end of its maintenance period around July 2009, these libraries would have been stale for nearly two years. It was in far more in keeping with Fedora's mission and strategy to have users and developers experiencing and building on the next generation KDE 4 platform. As with any new technology, we fully expect there to be some wrinkles that need smoothing. And Fedora's community of contribution -- as opposed to just consumption -- is designed to help with that smoothing process. Delivering KDE 4 was a purposeful move designed to aid the upstream community by putting their new technology in front of FOSS enthusiasts and developers who can help make it better. The process for getting involved in the FOSS ecosystem in Fedora has never been easier, so people using and developing on KDE 4 can have a very direct impact on the progress of the platform. And with the rapid advances toward KDE 4.1, we believe that was an absolutely winning strategy, and in keeping with our project goals. = = = [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Overview [2] http://trolltech.com/products/qt/learnmore/licensing-pricing/lifecycle [3] http://lists.kde.org/?l=kde-core-devel&m=118070931912272&w=2 ''' Hope this helps clarify things. -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Tue Aug 5 20:18:39 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 20:18:39 +0000 Subject: Fedora Project Board Recap 2008-07-29 In-Reply-To: References: <1217547182.10873.41.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <1217967519.6981.137.camel@victoria> On Thu, 2008-07-31 at 19:54 -0400, Jon Stanley wrote: > > # ACTION :: Paul - Request contributor to produce statistics for review > > queue on a regular basis in Fedora Weekly news > > This should be trivial to provide as a weekly report, using > infrastructure that I already have around (and some new stuff for more > interesting statistics - like the number of bugs blocking FE-LEGAL, > FE-NEEDSPONSOR, etc). Where should it go? Jon, what's the next step needed here? Is this something you can set up in a way that minimizes your weekly effort (i.e. automation)? Even if it's a cronjob that sends an email to the fedora-news-list, that should work great. (In fact, I'm *on* that list and am happy to help as needed.) -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From bugs.michael at gmx.net Tue Aug 5 21:52:02 2008 From: bugs.michael at gmx.net (Michael Schwendt) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 23:52:02 +0200 Subject: [Fwd: Question: Will Fedora 10 Contain KDE 3.5.10 or Not?] In-Reply-To: <1217965276.19808.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1217965276.19808.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20080805235202.93d4ac7e.bugs.michael@gmx.net> On Tue, 05 Aug 2008 15:41:16 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > From: S.W. Bobcat > Sincerely yours, > > R.H. Ruskin Hmmm...? From mmcgrath at redhat.com Wed Aug 6 02:30:55 2008 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 21:30:55 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Fwd: Question: Will Fedora 10 Contain KDE 3.5.10 or Not?] In-Reply-To: <1217965276.19808.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1217965276.19808.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Aug 2008, Jesse Keating wrote: > > KDE 3.5.10 should be included as a "feature" in Fedora 10 simple because > KDE 4.1 is still nowhere close to being ready for prime time, and still > lacks many of the customization features of KDE 3.5.x While I may want > to tinker with KDE 4.x and evaluate it some more, at the current time I > do not want to rely only on an unproven, buggy GUI no matter how "great" > its potential. Until KDE 4.x becomes more stable and more customizable, > then both KDE 3.5.x and KDE 4.x should be included in Fedora 10 and > future releases ( which probably translates to Fedora 12 or 13 which is > the expected time frame for KDE 4.3 or 4.4 release). > > I hope you and/or the Fedora Project leader will address this question > long before Fedora 10 is released. > /me not a member of the sig As a KDE user I too found some quirks and bugs in KDE 4.0. Lucky for me, Fedora 8 is still very much supported and I do still use it on some machines. I look forward to 4.1 which, my understanding is, quit a bit better. No doubt in some small part because of our decision to present 4.0 to the masses as quickly as possible. I think we did it before any other major distribution[1]. I think we played this one right. I do think it should be made more clear somewhere that Fedora is for enthusiasts or early adopters or something. Some people can't keep up and they shouldn't be using Fedora thinking that it doesn't move quickly. -Mike [1] This is from my memory... didn't research it. Please correct me if I'm wrong. From bugs.michael at gmx.net Wed Aug 6 10:27:26 2008 From: bugs.michael at gmx.net (Michael Schwendt) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 12:27:26 +0200 Subject: [Fwd: Question: Will Fedora 10 Contain KDE 3.5.10 or Not?] In-Reply-To: References: <1217965276.19808.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20080806122726.84ae812b.bugs.michael@gmx.net> On Tue, 5 Aug 2008 21:30:55 -0500 (CDT), Mike McGrath wrote: > I do think it should be made more > clear somewhere that Fedora is for enthusiasts or early adopters or > something. ... for people who either know how to multi-boot or who can choose between multiple computers. > Some people can't keep up and they shouldn't be using Fedora No, they don't want to keep up. Fedora can't keep up either (or else the releases would be more ready). To people, who try out Fedora, it becomes obvious that alpha releases are not much different from the final release and that a promising final release will look like an alpha release any time soon after another couple of hundred updates. > thinking that it doesn't move quickly. This is only understood partially: the short life-cycle, a new distribution release every six months, bleeding-edge software, tons of updates already quickly after installation. What is less obvious is that not just the development of the distribution moves forward in general, but that all current releases move forward with way too many updates, which break stuff that had been working before. From jkeating at redhat.com Wed Aug 6 13:05:38 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 09:05:38 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Question: Will Fedora 10 Contain KDE 3.5.10 or Not?] In-Reply-To: <20080806122726.84ae812b.bugs.michael@gmx.net> References: <1217965276.19808.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20080806122726.84ae812b.bugs.michael@gmx.net> Message-ID: <1218027938.1699.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2008-08-06 at 12:27 +0200, Michael Schwendt wrote: > No, they don't want to keep up. Fedora can't keep up either (or else the > releases would be more ready). To people, who try out Fedora, it becomes > obvious that alpha releases are not much different from the final release > and that a promising final release will look like an alpha release any > time soon after another couple of hundred updates. > > > thinking that it doesn't move quickly. > > This is only understood partially: the short life-cycle, a new > distribution release every six months, bleeding-edge software, tons of > updates already quickly after installation. What is less obvious is > that not just the development of the distribution moves forward in > general, but that all current releases move forward with way too many > updates, which break stuff that had been working before. The "too many updates" problem is something I've been trying to word so that others share my opinion that something is wrong here. I haven't been able to effectively communicate what I perceive to be a problem. Michael, perhaps you can help me describe what the problem is and how we as a project might be able to guide our contributors in avoiding this problem. I too would like to see the Fedora releases return to being more like stable releases to be trusted and less like rawhide snapshots to be buried in tonnes of changes. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From fedora at leemhuis.info Wed Aug 6 16:36:33 2008 From: fedora at leemhuis.info (Thorsten Leemhuis) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 18:36:33 +0200 Subject: [Fwd: Question: Will Fedora 10 Contain KDE 3.5.10 or Not?] In-Reply-To: <1218027938.1699.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1217965276.19808.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20080806122726.84ae812b.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <1218027938.1699.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4899D311.7070202@leemhuis.info> On 06.08.2008 15:05, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Wed, 2008-08-06 at 12:27 +0200, Michael Schwendt wrote: > > The "too many updates" problem is something I've been trying to word so > that others share my opinion that something is wrong here. I haven't > been able to effectively communicate what I perceive to be a problem. [...] My 2 cent: the number of updates is not the problem. In fact lots of new an up2date software without being to bleeding edge (like rawhide) is exactly one of the things that make Fedora great imho. Especially the kernel and driver updates that improve hardware support over time are fantastic. In the RHL past, the early Fedora days and in OpenSuse and Ubuntu these days users often have to wait half a year until new drivers released by kernel.org or x.org are available in a non-devel distro -- that really sucks if you own hardware that requires such a driver. And that hardware is quite common, because most of the time it's newly bought hardware that needs those new drivers -- and we all buy new hardware now and then. But yeah, the quality of the updates could be better. One of the problems imho: The maintainers release new upstream versions to rawhide, F(current) and F(current -1) at nearly the same time. K, thx to bodhi, updates-testing and the push overhead there is a small delay for the released versions, but nevertheless a lot of updates are released to F(current) and F(current -1) nearly at the same time. So if that new release from upstream has a serious bug then chances are big that all our user bases or at least rawhide and -testing user will be hit by it. I more and more think (and just like Jesse have failed to effectively communicate/put into words) that we should consider to switch to a more rolling release scheme with different usage levels. Roughly something like the following maybe: Level 1 -- rawhide, similar to how it is today (a bit more stable and less breakage would be nice, but that's in the works already) Level 2pre -- things that got tested in rawhide, that are still young, but known to work well in rawhide; similar to what updates-testing for F9 is today; Level 2 -- things that worked fine for some time in 2pre; similar to what F9 is today Level 3pre -- things that worked fine for some time in 2 Level 3 -- things that worked fine for some time in 2pre Level 3pre and 3 are like F8-updates-testing and F8, but with the difference that everything has to be tested and shipped in level 2 (aka F9) first. Just a thought and only some parts of the whole idea that jumps around in my head. So don't shoot me and read things into the above that are not written there -- it's just a rough scheme without the boring details worked out to show the rough concept. tia ;-) Cu knurd From stickster at gmail.com Wed Aug 6 16:42:07 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 16:42:07 +0000 Subject: [Fwd: Question: Will Fedora 10 Contain KDE 3.5.10 or Not?] In-Reply-To: <4899D311.7070202@leemhuis.info> References: <1217965276.19808.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20080806122726.84ae812b.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <1218027938.1699.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4899D311.7070202@leemhuis.info> Message-ID: <1218040927.3749.101.camel@victoria> On Wed, 2008-08-06 at 18:36 +0200, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > On 06.08.2008 15:05, Jesse Keating wrote: > > On Wed, 2008-08-06 at 12:27 +0200, Michael Schwendt wrote: > > > > The "too many updates" problem is something I've been trying to word so > > that others share my opinion that something is wrong here. I haven't > > been able to effectively communicate what I perceive to be a problem. [...] > > My 2 cent: the number of updates is not the problem. In fact lots of new > an up2date software without being to bleeding edge (like rawhide) is > exactly one of the things that make Fedora great imho. [...snip...] > Level 1 -- rawhide, similar to how it is today (a bit more stable and > less breakage would be nice, but that's in the works already) > > Level 2pre -- things that got tested in rawhide, that are still young, > but known to work well in rawhide; similar to what updates-testing for > F9 is today; > > Level 2 -- things that worked fine for some time in 2pre; similar to > what F9 is today > > Level 3pre -- things that worked fine for some time in 2 > > Level 3 -- things that worked fine for some time in 2pre > > > Level 3pre and 3 are like F8-updates-testing and F8, but with the > difference that everything has to be tested and shipped in level 2 (aka > F9) first. Interestingly, this is is sort of what Seth Vidal recently did for yum -- kinks were worked out in upstream and Rawhide, he has done several useful updates for F-9, and only recently has he bundled it up for an F-8 update. Hopefully he'll chime in with his thoughts on this strategy. -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Wed Aug 6 16:51:08 2008 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (seth vidal) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 12:51:08 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Question: Will Fedora 10 Contain KDE 3.5.10 or Not?] In-Reply-To: <1218040927.3749.101.camel@victoria> References: <1217965276.19808.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20080806122726.84ae812b.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <1218027938.1699.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4899D311.7070202@leemhuis.info> <1218040927.3749.101.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <1218041468.24410.53.camel@rosebud> On Wed, 2008-08-06 at 16:42 +0000, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Wed, 2008-08-06 at 18:36 +0200, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > > On 06.08.2008 15:05, Jesse Keating wrote: > > > On Wed, 2008-08-06 at 12:27 +0200, Michael Schwendt wrote: > > > > > > The "too many updates" problem is something I've been trying to word so > > > that others share my opinion that something is wrong here. I haven't > > > been able to effectively communicate what I perceive to be a problem. [...] > > > > My 2 cent: the number of updates is not the problem. In fact lots of new > > an up2date software without being to bleeding edge (like rawhide) is > > exactly one of the things that make Fedora great imho. > [...snip...] > > > Level 1 -- rawhide, similar to how it is today (a bit more stable and > > less breakage would be nice, but that's in the works already) > > > > Level 2pre -- things that got tested in rawhide, that are still young, > > but known to work well in rawhide; similar to what updates-testing for > > F9 is today; > > > > Level 2 -- things that worked fine for some time in 2pre; similar to > > what F9 is today > > > > Level 3pre -- things that worked fine for some time in 2 > > > > Level 3 -- things that worked fine for some time in 2pre > > > > > > Level 3pre and 3 are like F8-updates-testing and F8, but with the > > difference that everything has to be tested and shipped in level 2 (aka > > F9) first. > > Interestingly, this is is sort of what Seth Vidal recently did for yum > -- kinks were worked out in upstream and Rawhide, he has done several > useful updates for F-9, and only recently has he bundled it up for an > F-8 update. Hopefully he'll chime in with his thoughts on this > strategy. > I think doing the above for every package creates the problem that jesse is talking about. It seems like what jesse has talked about in the past is trying to get package maintainers to realize that we don't need to issue an update for utterly minor fixes. You can collect a set of things and push them back in a batch. The problem is this is based on Jesse's feeling that we're issuing a bunch of trivial updates and we're having trouble getting a metric on how accurate his feeling is. Also the reason why we're conservative on yum updates w/older releases is simple: if yum breaks the ability to get more updates breaks too, which is a big problem. -sv -- I only speak for me. From fedora at leemhuis.info Wed Aug 6 17:01:39 2008 From: fedora at leemhuis.info (Thorsten Leemhuis) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 19:01:39 +0200 Subject: [Fwd: Question: Will Fedora 10 Contain KDE 3.5.10 or Not?] In-Reply-To: <1218040927.3749.101.camel@victoria> References: <1217965276.19808.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20080806122726.84ae812b.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <1218027938.1699.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4899D311.7070202@leemhuis.info> <1218040927.3749.101.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <4899D8F3.80503@leemhuis.info> On 06.08.2008 18:42, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Wed, 2008-08-06 at 18:36 +0200, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: >> On 06.08.2008 15:05, Jesse Keating wrote: >>> On Wed, 2008-08-06 at 12:27 +0200, Michael Schwendt wrote: > [...] >> Level 1 -- rawhide, similar to how it is today (a bit more stable and >> less breakage would be nice, but that's in the works already) >> Level 2pre -- things that got tested in rawhide, that are still young, >> but known to work well in rawhide; similar to what updates-testing for >> F9 is today; >> Level 2 -- things that worked fine for some time in 2pre; similar to >> what F9 is today >> Level 3pre -- things that worked fine for some time in 2 >> Level 3 -- things that worked fine for some time in 2pre >> >> Level 3pre and 3 are like F8-updates-testing and F8, but with the >> difference that everything has to be tested and shipped in level 2 (aka >> F9) first. > > Interestingly, this is is sort of what Seth Vidal recently did for yum > -- kinks were worked out in upstream and Rawhide, he has done several > useful updates for F-9, and only recently has he bundled it up for an > F-8 update. [...] I liked that and it IMHO makes a whole lot of sense for most of our other packages as well. Something like the above was in fact the scheme that some of the long term packagers used (and still use) during the early Fedora Extras days. They suggested it to new packagers as well, but the idea got more and more forgotten over time -- seems it was and is way to easy to just import and build a new software release to all supported dists (including EPEL :-// ) at the same time. That didn't matter much for Extras, because most of the packages were not crucial. But it seems to me that it's a problem in the merged world. Some user education might be a good start to solve part of the problem. Cu knurd From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed Aug 6 17:04:54 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 09:04:54 -0800 Subject: [Fwd: Question: Will Fedora 10 Contain KDE 3.5.10 or Not?] In-Reply-To: <1218041468.24410.53.camel@rosebud> References: <1217965276.19808.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20080806122726.84ae812b.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <1218027938.1699.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4899D311.7070202@leemhuis.info> <1218040927.3749.101.camel@victoria> <1218041468.24410.53.camel@rosebud> Message-ID: <604aa7910808061004g5527bbb4x5a83b739e15d86a4@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Aug 6, 2008 at 8:51 AM, seth vidal wrote: > The problem is this is based on Jesse's feeling that we're issuing a > bunch of trivial updates and we're having trouble getting a metric on > how accurate his feeling is. Can we get a usably narrow definition of 'trivial updates' on record in the discussion? -jef"Given a finite number of updates in a release cycle, I'd rather see more trivial updates than non-trivial API/ABI changing updates."spaleta From bugs.michael at gmx.net Wed Aug 6 18:01:23 2008 From: bugs.michael at gmx.net (Michael Schwendt) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 20:01:23 +0200 Subject: [Fwd: Question: Will Fedora 10 Contain KDE 3.5.10 or Not?] In-Reply-To: <1218027938.1699.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1217965276.19808.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20080806122726.84ae812b.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <1218027938.1699.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20080806200123.90bed0a3.bugs.michael@gmx.net> On Wed, 06 Aug 2008 09:05:38 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > The "too many updates" problem is something I've been trying to word so > that others share my opinion that something is wrong here. I haven't > been able to effectively communicate what I perceive to be a problem. From the Fedora Wiki: | Fedora is a Linux-based operating system that provides users with | access to the latest free and open source software, Always? Always "the latest" as in "a rolling release"? Or "the latest" as in "what was fresh when Fedora N was being developed"? | by sticking close to upstream development teams, | Fedora often gets the latest software before anybody else. The former can be considered good, the latter is not necessarily good. Especially when reading it like "Fedora includes snapshots of unreleased software while other distributors spend more time on testing". The user wants to know what applies to Fedora N-1. Is it more stable and less fast-moving? Fine if the next Fedora release will aim at including the latest technology. Not so fine if an older still maintained Fedora release is moved to somewhere between a previously tested/stable release and the next Fedora, N+1. Fine if package maintainers release bug-fix updates from time to time, which include accumulated fixes for bugs filed in Fedora bugzilla. Not so fine if they release each and every upstream version as a "stable" Fedora update after a ridiculously short time in updates-testing and possibly even 0 karma (or +1 self-voted). Minor upstream updates often touch more code than one might assume. A minor update breaks something or introduces a new bug. Another bug-fix update is needed, and so on. Version upgrades sometimes lead to a dead end, if their subsequent bug-fix updates require upgrades of build requirements. Better spend the energy on Fedora N+1. Look at software in a Fedora release which is not updated at all! It isn't bug-free either. The next Fedora is only six months away. | in a stable, | secure | and easy to manage form. An upgrade a day keeps the user away. Bodhi lists 3947 "stable" updates for Fedora 8 compared with 260 security updates. Such a high number of updates and upgrades creates unnecessary work for the users. Every week they are presented with another large bunch of updates and need to find out how they are affected. For example, by .rpmsave/.rpmnew madness, regressions, broken dependencies, the necessity to "sync" configurations and customisations, being forced to do manual downgrades, being forced to apply all updates in order to rule out side-effects during trouble-shooting, silent API-breakage, silent ABI-breakage (we've had it, too), incompatibilities introduced by version upgrades *after* the final release. I'm especially concerned about the wasted effort of doing several Test releases before a final release and then throwing away all that work gradually when more and more packages get replaced. Too many updates receive negative karma. You ship a fix for one user and break something for two other users. No reason to believe that untested updates are safe(r). I agree with Thorsten in that _some_ updates are nice to have, e.g. a fresh kernel from time to time (and particularly if it is used for a respin). A kernel a week is too much, however. From poelstra at redhat.com Thu Aug 7 00:39:44 2008 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 17:39:44 -0700 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2008-AUG-05 Message-ID: <489A4450.4000004@redhat.com> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/Meetings/2008-08-05 = Fedora Project Board Meeting :: Tuesday 2008-08-05 = == Roll Call == * Attendees: John Poelstra, Chris Tyler, Spot Callaway, Paul Frields, Matt Domsch, Harald Hoyer, Jesse Keating, Karsten Wade, Seth Vidal * Regrets: Bill Nottingham, Jef Spaleta == Codecs (2008-05-13) == * Need to restart discussion on fedora-advisory-board redhat com to get plans in place at the start of F10 * Chris Aillon to make contact with Bastien Nocera to find out what current plans are * Waiting on bug 438225 to proceed ** this change will enable auto-provide for codec information ** For Fedora 10 removing Codeina and using the distribution's built-in mechanism to install packages (if 438255) is implemented ** For Fluendo to continue to provide codecs to Fedora they will need to provide them as packages in a yum repo ** This errs on the side of more "free-ish" software '''RESOLUTION''': # ACTION :: Paul - request feature page from developer # FESCo should track bug 438225 since this falls into their mandate '''FOLLOWUP''' (2008-08-05): * Feature page still in the works and FESCo is tracking bug 438225 == Trademark Guidelines (2008-07-01) == * Board would like to help guide the process of expanding the use of the Fedora trademark * Helpful to brainstorm by thinking of Fedora trademark usage in four ways: # Things the board wants Fedora to be able to do with the trademark # Things the board wants the Fedora community to be able to freely do with trademark # Things the board wants other people to reasonably be expected to be able to do, but ask the Fedora Board first # Things that the board never wants people to use the Fedora trademark for * '''OWNER''': Paul Frields * '''ACTIONS''': *# circulate ideas and foster discussion on fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com list *# return feedback to the board for discussion on: 2008-08-05 *# Latest updates: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Pfrields/NewTrademarkGuidelines (see also discussion tab) '''FOLLOWUP''' (2008-08-05): * Board definitely wants a Fedora trademark of some sorts for spins and other uses--derivative works * Still unsure on how best to proceed on issues related to: *# official spins *# unofficial spins *# branded USB keys *# OEM pre-loads *# Fedora business cards *# Fedora apparel and conference materials (see section on Non-software goods) * Everyone should add uncovered use cases to wiki page (see above) ASAP * Paul Frields will be working with Red Hat Legal starting this week to move the process forward == board elections (2008-07-01) == * Background: ** Recent discussion on fedora-advisory-board-list ** Should we consider term limits ** Are there ways to remove the distinction some folks see between those that work at Red Hat and those that do not? * Response: ** Community vote is an open process ** Number of FAS accounts does not necessarily reflect number of contributors ** How should low turn out be interpreted? **# People didn't know? **# People are happy with how things are and do not see a need to change them? **# Other possibilities include apathy or difficulties with the process ** Could we do an analysis of voter turnout based on FAS group? **# Groups where total membership is less than 10 people, exclude group from analysis **# Interested in identifying groups where we might be seen as irrelevant and can do a better job of engaging. **# Whatever we do will be published ** Could community members qualifying to vote be reminded via email? *# reminding them to vote at the beginning *# send a reminder at the end to people who have not voted ** Term limits are a good idea. Let the community help craft what they think the right policy should be on fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com list. * '''ACTIONS''': # file ticket with infrastructure requesting a mail delivery mechanism added to FAS #* keep it generic so that other groups can use it--not just limited to voting #* https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/675 # circulate ideas and foster discussion on fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com list about term limits and guidelines around them #* '''OWNER''': Seth Vidal #* set a time limit for feedback #* return feedback to the board for discussion on: 2008-08-05 '''RESOLUTION''': * There did not appear to be any consensus on fedora-advisory-board list related to term limits * Paul Frields withdraws written proposal related to term limits * Board will consider future proposals if someone writes one up and puts it forward * No future action at this time == Privacy Policy (2008-07-29) == * Tom's draft has been at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/TomCallaway/PrivacyPolicyDraft for two weeks and comments have been handled ** We cannot guarantee FAS submitted email addresses' privacy because an outside (non- at fp.o) email address must be used for Bugzilla ** No retention clauses exist in the draft, people should be able to request a purge if they leave * Voting application could be further refined to disconnect voting data from accounts * Board to reconsider policy for a vote # ACTION :: Tom - Make change that allows email address to be public # ACTION :: Tom - Add a retention policy # ACTION :: Tom - Create Infrastructure ticket with details on decoupling voting data from account data '''RESOLUTION''' (2008-08-05): * Spot made all proposed changes * All present board members voted in favor of the new policy * New privacy policy can take effect immediately and a link to it will be posted on the wiki front page * Also send announcement to fedora-announce-list ** There is no mechanism to email all group users at this time ** Ticket was filed and could be used for this process: https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/675 == Package Reviews (2008-07-29) == * Board wants to ensure FESCo is driving interest in package reviews * Board also wants to ensure it is helping FESCo create an adequate basis for getting that additional contributor help ** Queue is very lengthy, over 800 packages at last count ** This may drive update statistics '''RESOLUTION''': # ACTION :: Paul - Request contributor to produce statistics for review queue on a regular basis in Fedora Weekly news # ACTION :: Karsten - On Docs team, drive priority wiki gardening of the packaging and package review guidelines to make contributor uptake easier '''FOLLOWUP''' (2008-08-05) * Karsten--in process * Paul ** Jon Stanley has the ability to create statistics and also goes well with Jason Tibbitts effort to improve process ** hope to get into FWN next week == Task Tracking == * Would the board or community benefit from more detailed tracking of board tasks? * Could result in more work for board secretary DECISION: For now it appears the board meeting summaries are sufficient. == Next Meeting == * irc.freenode.net * Join #fedora-board-meeting to see the Board's conversation * Join #fedora-board-public to discuss topics and post questions * Announcement has been sent to fedora-advisory-board list * Greg Dk to moderate From mspevack at redhat.com Thu Aug 7 10:20:39 2008 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 12:20:39 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [Fwd: Question: Will Fedora 10 Contain KDE 3.5.10 or Not?] In-Reply-To: <1218041468.24410.53.camel@rosebud> References: <1217965276.19808.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20080806122726.84ae812b.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <1218027938.1699.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4899D311.7070202@leemhuis.info> <1218040927.3749.101.camel@victoria> <1218041468.24410.53.camel@rosebud> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Aug 2008, seth vidal wrote: > Also the reason why we're conservative on yum updates w/older releases > is simple: if yum breaks the ability to get more updates breaks too, > which is a big problem. Reminds me of the following piece of advice that I received on my first day working at Red Hat (as a QA guy in RHN): "Whatever you do, *always* make sure that before we issue a new version of up2date, it is capable of up2date-ing itself." --Max From kwade at redhat.com Sun Aug 10 15:34:16 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 08:34:16 -0700 Subject: Will Fedora 10 Contain KDE 3.5.10 or Not? In-Reply-To: <1217967173.6981.130.camel@victoria> References: <1217965276.19808.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4898B176.6060202@math.unl.edu> <1217967173.6981.130.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <1218382456.27936.16.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Tue, 2008-08-05 at 20:12 +0000, Paul W. Frields wrote: > I was contacted not too long ago for a statement about KDE 4 in Fedora > 9, and the criticism its developers have received for the changes > they've made to the platform. Unfortunately, none of my statement was > used in the article. (Too long-winded?) But here's what I said: [snip what was said] As it happens, I made a variation on those statements several times this week at LinuxWorld from people who experienced problems with KDE 4 in F9 or heard about it. I then turned to the computer behind me, pulled up torrent.fedoraproject.org, and pointed out that availability of F10 Alpha live KDE version as I explained the chicken-and-egg situation we get with testing. This is independent of how _often_ we update. We have an evolutionary situation with the live spins for every Alpha, Beta, and RC that could translate into increased testing and quality of release. What I began to think about was a campaign around testing for each release: "Test the five things most important to you in the upcoming version of Fedora. Whatever you use Fedora for, there are at least five tasks, pieces of software, or bundles of tools that are important to you. Use the live images available in Fedora 10 Alpha and Beta to test these five items. You can boot to an entire system or in a virtual environment. Who knows? You might find and help get fixed a bug that could have made it all the way to the final version, where it would annoy you to no end." - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Sr. Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Sun Aug 10 18:38:45 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 10:38:45 -0800 Subject: Will Fedora 10 Contain KDE 3.5.10 or Not? In-Reply-To: <1218382456.27936.16.camel@calliope.phig.org> References: <1217965276.19808.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4898B176.6060202@math.unl.edu> <1217967173.6981.130.camel@victoria> <1218382456.27936.16.camel@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <604aa7910808101138l34b24311g64ebf58449e856ad@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Aug 10, 2008 at 7:34 AM, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > What I began to think about was a campaign around testing for each > release: > > "Test the five things most important to you in the upcoming > version of Fedora. > > Whatever you use Fedora for, there are at least five tasks, > pieces of software, or bundles of tools that are important to > you. Use the live images available in Fedora 10 Alpha and Beta > to test these five items. You can boot to an entire system or > in a virtual environment. > > Who knows? You might find and help get fixed a bug that could > have made it all the way to the final version, where it would > annoy you to no end." > > - Karsten That certainly feels like the right challenge statement to present to people. I wish we had a way to hold up the people who accepted the challenge for recognition to the rest of the community to build peer pressure and recognition aspect into that sort of challenge. -jef" We could perhaps produce a line of Fedora pogs, perhaps even virtual pogs in the shape of web banners for different packages in the repository. Being pogs they could be collected, traded...and even horded...but would only earnable by taking up the testing challenge associated with that particular package. For those for whom the pog concept is alien, see this reference: http://www.voont.com/pogs "spaleta From kwade at redhat.com Mon Aug 11 18:15:29 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 11:15:29 -0700 Subject: Will Fedora 10 Contain KDE 3.5.10 or Not? In-Reply-To: <604aa7910808101138l34b24311g64ebf58449e856ad@mail.gmail.com> References: <1217965276.19808.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4898B176.6060202@math.unl.edu> <1217967173.6981.130.camel@victoria> <1218382456.27936.16.camel@calliope.phig.org> <604aa7910808101138l34b24311g64ebf58449e856ad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1218478529.4118.9.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Sun, 2008-08-10 at 10:38 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > That certainly feels like the right challenge statement to present to people. > I wish we had a way to hold up the people who accepted the challenge > for recognition to the rest of the community to build peer pressure > and recognition aspect into that sort of challenge. Right now the best thing we can do is spread the meme: http://iquaid.org/2008/08/11/fedora-is-about-to-break-what-is-most-important-to-you/ Nice headline, what? ;-D - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Sr. Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Mon Aug 11 18:28:11 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 10:28:11 -0800 Subject: Will Fedora 10 Contain KDE 3.5.10 or Not? In-Reply-To: <1218478529.4118.9.camel@calliope.phig.org> References: <1217965276.19808.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4898B176.6060202@math.unl.edu> <1217967173.6981.130.camel@victoria> <1218382456.27936.16.camel@calliope.phig.org> <604aa7910808101138l34b24311g64ebf58449e856ad@mail.gmail.com> <1218478529.4118.9.camel@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <604aa7910808111128g5ecbecc6u47138b90ef22ebc4@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 10:15 AM, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > Right now the best thing we can do is spread the meme: > > http://iquaid.org/2008/08/11/fedora-is-about-to-break-what-is-most-important-to-you/ > > Nice headline, what? ;-D The next easiest thing we can do... is make sure that we can actually take the alpha image..download it..and then run it via our included virtualization gui on an selinux enabled machine! If I have to use audit2allow to take my Fedora Alpha image in my Download directory and run it under virt-manager gui... that's a fail. Sure qemu -cdrom whatever.iso works...but isn't the point of the gui to actually be...usable? -jef"really wish setroubleshoot would let me build per alert policy via a set of clicks so I didn't have to drop to the cmdline and mess with audit2allow as a user"spaleta From jspaleta at gmail.com Mon Aug 11 19:37:48 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 11:37:48 -0800 Subject: Will Fedora 10 Contain KDE 3.5.10 or Not? In-Reply-To: <604aa7910808111128g5ecbecc6u47138b90ef22ebc4@mail.gmail.com> References: <1217965276.19808.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4898B176.6060202@math.unl.edu> <1217967173.6981.130.camel@victoria> <1218382456.27936.16.camel@calliope.phig.org> <604aa7910808101138l34b24311g64ebf58449e856ad@mail.gmail.com> <1218478529.4118.9.camel@calliope.phig.org> <604aa7910808111128g5ecbecc6u47138b90ef22ebc4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910808111237l31660b3cr7d344a3e4710c850@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > The next easiest thing we can do... is make sure that we can actually > take the alpha image..download it..and then run it via our included > virtualization gui on an selinux enabled machine! I have the answer....thanks to the actual selinux gurus Simplest thing: The iso has to be moved to /var/lib/libvirt/images restorecon isofile run virt-manager and select the iso file down in /var/lib/libvirt/images as the install image. blamo! Now you can test virtualized installs under virt-manager. The only thing you have to drop to the cmdline for is the restorecon. But I hear the virt team is working on this selinux interaction problem. We should add this sort of information on the "so you want to be a tester" page..if we have one. -jef"virt-manager isn't horrid"spaleta From kwade at redhat.com Mon Aug 11 21:00:52 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 14:00:52 -0700 Subject: Will Fedora 10 Contain KDE 3.5.10 or Not? In-Reply-To: <604aa7910808111128g5ecbecc6u47138b90ef22ebc4@mail.gmail.com> References: <1217965276.19808.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4898B176.6060202@math.unl.edu> <1217967173.6981.130.camel@victoria> <1218382456.27936.16.camel@calliope.phig.org> <604aa7910808101138l34b24311g64ebf58449e856ad@mail.gmail.com> <1218478529.4118.9.camel@calliope.phig.org> <604aa7910808111128g5ecbecc6u47138b90ef22ebc4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1218488452.4118.45.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Mon, 2008-08-11 at 10:28 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 10:15 AM, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > > Right now the best thing we can do is spread the meme: > > > > http://iquaid.org/2008/08/11/fedora-is-about-to-break-what-is-most-important-to-you/ > > > > Nice headline, what? ;-D > > The next easiest thing we can do... is make sure that we can actually > take the alpha image..download it..and then run it via our included > virtualization gui on an selinux enabled machine! > > If I have to use audit2allow to take my Fedora Alpha image in my > Download directory and run it under virt-manager gui... that's a fail. Yeah, I ran across that last week, wasn't sure where the problem was exactly so haven't filed a bug report. > Sure qemu -cdrom whatever.iso works...but isn't the point of the gui > to actually be...usable? > > -jef"really wish setroubleshoot would let me build per alert policy > via a set of clicks so I didn't have to drop to the cmdline and mess > with audit2allow as a user"spaleta > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board -- Karsten Wade, Sr. Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jkeating at redhat.com Tue Aug 12 01:58:40 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 21:58:40 -0400 Subject: Will Fedora 10 Contain KDE 3.5.10 or Not? In-Reply-To: <604aa7910808111237l31660b3cr7d344a3e4710c850@mail.gmail.com> References: <1217965276.19808.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4898B176.6060202@math.unl.edu> <1217967173.6981.130.camel@victoria> <1218382456.27936.16.camel@calliope.phig.org> <604aa7910808101138l34b24311g64ebf58449e856ad@mail.gmail.com> <1218478529.4118.9.camel@calliope.phig.org> <604aa7910808111128g5ecbecc6u47138b90ef22ebc4@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910808111237l31660b3cr7d344a3e4710c850@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1218506320.408.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2008-08-11 at 11:37 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > The next easiest thing we can do... is make sure that we can actually > > take the alpha image..download it..and then run it via our included > > virtualization gui on an selinux enabled machine! > > I have the answer....thanks to the actual selinux gurus > Simplest thing: > The iso has to be moved to /var/lib/libvirt/images > restorecon isofile > > run virt-manager and select the iso file down in > /var/lib/libvirt/images as the install image. > > blamo! Now you can test virtualized installs under virt-manager. The > only thing you have to drop to the cmdline for is the restorecon. But > I hear the virt team is working on this selinux interaction problem. > > We should add this sort of information on the "so you want to be a > tester" page..if we have one. > > -jef"virt-manager isn't horrid"spaleta > This presents a problem though. It seems non-root users can't write to this directory (/var/lib/libvirt/images) so some root action needs to be taken either at the command line level to move the downloaded iso, or by launching Nautilus or Konq or what have you as root. Neither I think is a very good UI path. Why can't virt-manager copy it for the user, or allow the user to load an iso located in their home directory? This seems like our OS is fighting against itself here. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Aug 12 02:14:19 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 18:14:19 -0800 Subject: Will Fedora 10 Contain KDE 3.5.10 or Not? In-Reply-To: <1218506320.408.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1217965276.19808.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4898B176.6060202@math.unl.edu> <1217967173.6981.130.camel@victoria> <1218382456.27936.16.camel@calliope.phig.org> <604aa7910808101138l34b24311g64ebf58449e856ad@mail.gmail.com> <1218478529.4118.9.camel@calliope.phig.org> <604aa7910808111128g5ecbecc6u47138b90ef22ebc4@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910808111237l31660b3cr7d344a3e4710c850@mail.gmail.com> <1218506320.408.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <604aa7910808111914p12c5b19fh3bfbb94637778f2b@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 5:58 PM, Jesse Keating wrote: > Why can't virt-manager copy it for the user, or allow the user to load > an iso located in their home directory? This seems like our OS is > fighting against itself here. I don't disagree that something needs to change to make it easier. But for the moment..id rather document how to get it to work..so people can test the alpha release in virt-manager. while the virt team figures out how to work with selinux enabled. Though since i can't actually get the dvd image to actually complete an install under virt manager its a moot point..fails at disk partitioning (even went down to one ext3 partition and no swap). Though you can still run the live images under virt-manager with qemu i guess. -jef From stickster at gmail.com Tue Aug 12 15:01:37 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 15:01:37 +0000 Subject: Board public IRC meeting Message-ID: <1218553297.4986.20.camel@victoria> Reminder: a Board public IRC meeting will be held today at 1800 UTC. Details are on the wiki at: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/IRC -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Aug 13 08:15:08 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 13:45:08 +0530 Subject: [Fedora-spins] Developer and Electronic-Lab Spins In-Reply-To: References: <48A08443.7020002@kanarip.com> Message-ID: <48A2980C.5070006@fedoraproject.org> Siddharth Upmanyu wrote: > > Oops for the delay, covering it up.. > > For the Developers Spin > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/DeveloperSpin Have you checked out the kickstart file in the spin sig git repo? You might want to list the package in the feature page. Rahul From siddharth at techbugs.org Wed Aug 13 08:05:52 2008 From: siddharth at techbugs.org (Siddharth Upmanyu) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 13:35:52 +0530 Subject: [Fedora-spins] Developer and Electronic-Lab Spins In-Reply-To: <48A08443.7020002@kanarip.com> References: <48A08443.7020002@kanarip.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 11:56 PM, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > Guys, > > you are lacking Feature Pages, and are therefore not yet approved by > Release Engineering to be composed for the Beta. > > Create your feature pages and drop a note on both the fedora-spins > mailing list, as well as the fedora-advisory-board for trademark > approval, after which you can continue to move to the rel-eng mailing > list at lists.fedoraproject.org to get your final approval. > > Most appropriate would be to do so in advance of the Beta Feature > Freeze, coming up August 19th. > > Kind regards, > > Jeroen van Meeuwen > -kanarip > _______________________________________________ > Fedora-spins mailing list > Fedora-spins at lists.fedoraproject.org > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/fedora-spins > Oops for the delay, covering it up.. For the Developers Spin https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/DeveloperSpin Regards Siddharth From siddharth at techbugs.org Wed Aug 13 08:25:08 2008 From: siddharth at techbugs.org (Siddharth Upmanyu) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 13:55:08 +0530 Subject: [Fedora-spins] Developer and Electronic-Lab Spins In-Reply-To: <48A2980C.5070006@fedoraproject.org> References: <48A08443.7020002@kanarip.com> <48A2980C.5070006@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 1:45 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Siddharth Upmanyu wrote: > >> >> Oops for the delay, covering it up.. >> >> For the Developers Spin >> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/DeveloperSpin > > Have you checked out the kickstart file in the spin sig git repo? You > might want to list the package in the feature page. > > Rahul > _______________________________________________ > Fedora-spins mailing list > Fedora-spins at lists.fedoraproject.org > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/fedora-spins > Rahul, Yes I ve got the kickstart, done some changes.. will do some build tries and post for commit. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/DeveloperSpin#Packages lists most of them, i'll keep them updated. Siddharth From stickster at gmail.com Wed Aug 13 17:21:24 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 13:21:24 -0400 Subject: Business card design Message-ID: <1218648084.3893.67.camel@victoria> Ian designed some beautiful business cards for Fedora, and I think it's time to pick an official design. I feel comfortable doing that if Ian and the Artwork team have selected one or two designs we can use. If the Board wants to vote, I'm open to that, but it seems like overkill to me, not to mention which, I gave Ian a bit of feedback during the process, and would hate to see him have to double back unless people are vehement about the design. One requirement that was brought up was the ability to verify that someone's part of the Fedora community. This could be done through the cardholder's FAS username, which I think is part of the design already in the form of an email address (user at fp.o). We might want a simple link on the FAS interface that non-authenticated users can use to verify that someone's with Fedora. That verification needs to follow the privacy policy as well, exposing only the detail that's required. I don't believe this feature is a security risk because people already use user at fp.o email addresses that expose their user names publicly. If people agree, I can file an Infrastructure ticket for this, since it should be relatively easy and straightforward. Paul -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed Aug 13 17:24:58 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 09:24:58 -0800 Subject: Business card design In-Reply-To: <1218648084.3893.67.camel@victoria> References: <1218648084.3893.67.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <604aa7910808131024r57a6ed78m91387ee28d0928ba@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 9:21 AM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > Ian designed some beautiful business cards for Fedora, and I think it's > time to pick an official design. I feel comfortable doing that if Ian > and the Artwork team have selected one or two designs we can use. Are they targeting a specific application to use them with? If I were in a demanding sort of mood I'd require a version that was compatible with glabels..or enough source material so I could make sure there was a version that was compatible with glabels. -jef -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From a.badger at gmail.com Wed Aug 13 17:51:13 2008 From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 10:51:13 -0700 Subject: Business card design In-Reply-To: <1218648084.3893.67.camel@victoria> References: <1218648084.3893.67.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <48A31F11.6000700@gmail.com> Paul W. Frields wrote: > We might want a simple > link on the FAS interface that non-authenticated users can use to verify > that someone's with Fedora. That verification needs to follow the > privacy policy as well, exposing only the detail that's required. I > don't believe this feature is a security risk because people already use > user at fp.o email addresses that expose their user names publicly. If > people agree, I can file an Infrastructure ticket for this, since it > should be relatively easy and straightforward. > As long as we know what to use as criteria it should be simple. ie: CLA_done? A combination of CLA_done and any other group? -Toshio -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Aug 13 18:46:48 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 14:46:48 -0400 Subject: Business card design In-Reply-To: <48A31F11.6000700@gmail.com> References: <1218648084.3893.67.camel@victoria> <48A31F11.6000700@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1218653208.12777.30.camel@victoria> On Wed, 2008-08-13 at 10:51 -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > Paul W. Frields wrote: > > We might want a simple > > link on the FAS interface that non-authenticated users can use to verify > > that someone's with Fedora. That verification needs to follow the > > privacy policy as well, exposing only the detail that's required. I > > don't believe this feature is a security risk because people already use > > user at fp.o email addresses that expose their user names publicly. If > > people agree, I can file an Infrastructure ticket for this, since it > > should be relatively easy and straightforward. > > > As long as we know what to use as criteria it should be simple. > > ie: CLA_done? A combination of CLA_done and any other group? The latter sounds reasonable to me, provided that Ambassadors are in the ambassador group. Being a Fedora representative means you should be trusted enough by someone in some group to be sponsored. -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Aug 13 18:48:21 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 14:48:21 -0400 Subject: Business card design In-Reply-To: <604aa7910808131024r57a6ed78m91387ee28d0928ba@mail.gmail.com> References: <1218648084.3893.67.camel@victoria> <604aa7910808131024r57a6ed78m91387ee28d0928ba@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1218653302.12777.34.camel@victoria> On Wed, 2008-08-13 at 09:24 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > > On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 9:21 AM, Paul W. Frields > wrote: > Ian designed some beautiful business cards for Fedora, and I > think it's > time to pick an official design. I feel comfortable doing > that if Ian > and the Artwork team have selected one or two designs we can > use. > > > > Are they targeting a specific application to use them with? If I were > in a demanding sort of mood I'd require a version that was compatible > with glabels..or enough source material so I could make sure there was > a version that was compatible with glabels. Everything the Artwork team produces is complete with source, so you can have the latter. :-) -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From igorsoares at gmail.com Wed Aug 13 19:21:49 2008 From: igorsoares at gmail.com (Igor Pires Soares) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 16:21:49 -0300 Subject: Request for Trademark Approval (BrOffice.org Spin) Message-ID: <1218655309.3288.41.camel@amd5600> Hello! As one of the steps to get the BrOffice.org Spin approved for Fedora 10 this request will clarify some points about the spin concept, also described in the Spin Feature Page [1]. BrOffice.org Spin is intended to provide a Brazilian Portuguese localized LiveCD in order to offer to the users a nice and consistent option to get BrOffice.org in Fedora. BrOffice.org is the Brazilian official brand and NGO for OpenOffice.org. There is already a company named OpenOffice in Brazil so they had to change the name. This spin is based on fedora-livecd-desktop.ks from Kickstart Pool and follows the guidelines of the Spin SIG as approved by them [2]. We do not use any external package neither change the original behavior of applications. Everything is in Fedora Rawhide repositories and I'm building it weekly to see how it goes. You can have access to the Kickstart file here: http://igor.fedorapeople.org/BrOffice.orgSpin/fedora-livecd-broffice.org.ks All the observations made so far by the Spin SIG were committed to the kickstart file. [1]https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/BrOffice.orgSpin [2]http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/fedora-spins/2008-August/000062.html Regards, Igor Pires Soares Brazilian Portuguese Localization Coordinator From ianweller at gmail.com Wed Aug 13 20:39:10 2008 From: ianweller at gmail.com (Ian Weller) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 15:39:10 -0500 Subject: Business card design In-Reply-To: <1218648084.3893.67.camel@victoria> References: <1218648084.3893.67.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <20080813203910.GA6642@gmail.com> On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 01:21:24PM -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > One requirement that was brought up was the ability to verify that > someone's part of the Fedora community. > How about .id.fedoraproject.org? Adapt the OpenID identity page to have an approve/deny sort of thing? Thanks for writing this up, Paul. -- Ian Weller http://ianweller.org GnuPG fingerprint: E51E 0517 7A92 70A2 4226 B050 87ED 7C97 EFA8 4A36 "Technology is a word that describes something that doesn't work yet." ~ Douglas Adams -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ianweller at gmail.com Wed Aug 13 20:43:45 2008 From: ianweller at gmail.com (Ian Weller) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 15:43:45 -0500 Subject: Business card design In-Reply-To: <1218653302.12777.34.camel@victoria> References: <1218648084.3893.67.camel@victoria> <604aa7910808131024r57a6ed78m91387ee28d0928ba@mail.gmail.com> <1218653302.12777.34.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <20080813204345.GB6642@gmail.com> On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 02:48:21PM -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Wed, 2008-08-13 at 09:24 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > Are they targeting a specific application to use them with? If I were > > in a demanding sort of mood I'd require a version that was compatible > > with glabels..or enough source material so I could make sure there was > > a version that was compatible with glabels. > > Everything the Artwork team produces is complete with source, so you can > have the latter. :-) > Right now, the template is an SVG (XML) file parsed with xml.dom.minidom in Python. The generator and templates are in a Git repo -- git clone git://fedorapeople.org/~ianweller/fedora-business-cards.git Patches are, of course, always welcome :) I never thought of glabels, mainly because I don't use it. When I was printing off business cards I put the SVGs in Inkscape and produced a PDF, which I then printed. Each to his own. -- Ian Weller http://ianweller.org GnuPG fingerprint: E51E 0517 7A92 70A2 4226 B050 87ED 7C97 EFA8 4A36 "Technology is a word that describes something that doesn't work yet." ~ Douglas Adams -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed Aug 13 21:19:56 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 13:19:56 -0800 Subject: Business card design In-Reply-To: <20080813204345.GB6642@gmail.com> References: <1218648084.3893.67.camel@victoria> <604aa7910808131024r57a6ed78m91387ee28d0928ba@mail.gmail.com> <1218653302.12777.34.camel@victoria> <20080813204345.GB6642@gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910808131419u71d99a37rc781b43568799ab4@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 12:43 PM, Ian Weller wrote: | git clone git://fedorapeople.org/~ianweller/fedora-business-cards.git make python generate.py Traceback (most recent call last): File "generate.py", line 28, in from fedora.accounts.fas2 import AccountSystem ImportError: No module named fedora.accounts.fas2 make: *** [out.svg] Error 1 Sigh...please add some instructions on what the installed enviroment needs to have in order to make use of the code. If this has to be done on running infrastructure hosts, tell me that don't tell me to git clone it. It's somewhat frustrating when i'm told to git clone something without any thought as to instructing me on what the build environment needs to look like. git cloning is cool and all... but i'm not going to be very good at helping develop this further to meet what I expect are the most common user expectations on the resulting output if I can't actually run the code. > I never thought of glabels, mainly because I don't use it. When I was > printing off business cards I put the SVGs in Inkscape and produced a > PDF, which I then printed. Each to his own. > When you have a hammer...everything is a nail. I think it takes a special sort of person to reach first for inkscape to print out sheet labels. I don't expect most people will think to do that to be quite honest with you. Printing out business cards, and label sheets in general, falls completele inside the realm of mundane office tasks,,and as such people are going to reach for something that doesn't bill itself in our menus as a graphics editting tool to do it. OpenOffice.org or even glabels will be the first things users end up reaching for because they bill themselves as office apps and understand how to handle different label sheets.. if they can't just get a pdf and print that. I also think you have to be prepared to support different sized business card stock somewhat flexibly. If you are using a generator.. you should really think hard about lifting glabel's support for its list of predefined manufacture labels by brand and number which are a set of xml files. Can you use them as is in your generator and expose a selection dialog similar to how glabels does it? Expose the template selection and ask people to generate a card sheet PDF that works for the labelsheet that they have access to to print on. No svg, no png.. a PDF that works with the sheet stock they have to print on. You do that, and you've basically removed the need for anyone to tweak the layout at all locally in glabels or inkscape or anything. It will print from evince..which is installed by default even in our live cds. -jef -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ianweller at gmail.com Wed Aug 13 21:29:15 2008 From: ianweller at gmail.com (Ian Weller) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 16:29:15 -0500 Subject: Business card design In-Reply-To: <604aa7910808131419u71d99a37rc781b43568799ab4@mail.gmail.com> References: <1218648084.3893.67.camel@victoria> <604aa7910808131024r57a6ed78m91387ee28d0928ba@mail.gmail.com> <1218653302.12777.34.camel@victoria> <20080813204345.GB6642@gmail.com> <604aa7910808131419u71d99a37rc781b43568799ab4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080813212915.GG6642@gmail.com> On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 01:19:56PM -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > Sigh...please add some instructions on what the installed enviroment needs > to have in order to make use of the code. > Apologies, I *should* have pointed here: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Business_cards -- Ian Weller http://ianweller.org GnuPG fingerprint: E51E 0517 7A92 70A2 4226 B050 87ED 7C97 EFA8 4A36 "Technology is a word that describes something that doesn't work yet." ~ Douglas Adams -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Aug 13 21:44:19 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 21:44:19 +0000 Subject: Business card design In-Reply-To: <604aa7910808131419u71d99a37rc781b43568799ab4@mail.gmail.com> References: <1218648084.3893.67.camel@victoria> <604aa7910808131024r57a6ed78m91387ee28d0928ba@mail.gmail.com> <1218653302.12777.34.camel@victoria> <20080813204345.GB6642@gmail.com> <604aa7910808131419u71d99a37rc781b43568799ab4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1218663859.12777.90.camel@victoria> On Wed, 2008-08-13 at 13:19 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > > On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 12:43 PM, Ian Weller > wrote: > | git clone > git://fedorapeople.org/~ianweller/fedora-business-cards.git > > make > python generate.py > Traceback (most recent call last): > File "generate.py", line 28, in > from fedora.accounts.fas2 import AccountSystem > ImportError: No module named fedora.accounts.fas2 > make: *** [out.svg] Error 1 > > Sigh...please add some instructions on what the installed enviroment > needs to have in order to make use of the code. If this has to be done > on running infrastructure hosts, tell me that don't tell me to git > clone it. It's somewhat frustrating when i'm told to git clone > something without any thought as to instructing me on what the build > environment needs to look like. git cloning is cool and all... but > i'm not going to be very good at helping develop this further to meet > what I expect are the most common user expectations on the resulting > output if I can't actually run the code. It's the "python-fedora" package, you could just ask. ;-) > I never thought of glabels, mainly because I don't use it. > When I was > printing off business cards I put the SVGs in Inkscape and > produced a > PDF, which I then printed. Each to his own. > > When you have a hammer...everything is a nail. > > I think it takes a special sort of person to reach first for inkscape > to print out sheet labels. I don't expect most people will think to do > that to be quite honest with you. Printing out business cards, and > label sheets in general, falls completele inside the realm of mundane > office tasks,,and as such people are going to reach for something that > doesn't bill itself in our menus as a graphics editting tool to do it. > OpenOffice.org or even glabels will be the first things users end up > reaching for because they bill themselves as office apps and > understand how to handle different label sheets.. if they can't just > get a pdf and print that. > > I also think you have to be prepared to support different sized > business card stock somewhat flexibly. If you are using a generator.. > you should really think hard about lifting glabel's support for its > list of predefined manufacture labels by brand and number which are a > set of xml files. Can you use them as is in your generator and expose > a selection dialog similar to how glabels does it? > > Expose the template selection and ask people to generate a card sheet > PDF that works for the labelsheet that they have access to to print > on. No svg, no png.. a PDF that works with the sheet stock they have > to print on. You do that, and you've basically removed the need for > anyone to tweak the layout at all locally in glabels or inkscape or > anything. It will print from evince..which is installed by default > even in our live cds. Having at least a few PDFs available for some of the different standard aspect ratios would definitely be a big plus: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_card#Dimensions I'm not going to hinge a decision on whether those are ready, though, especially since the design seems flexible enough for all the aspect ratios shown there. There are all sorts of crazy business card formats out there, after all. Here's the Glabels DTD in case it helps: http://glabels.sourceforge.net/doc/glabels-2.2.dtd.txt -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed Aug 13 21:51:25 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 13:51:25 -0800 Subject: Business card design In-Reply-To: <1218663859.12777.90.camel@victoria> References: <1218648084.3893.67.camel@victoria> <604aa7910808131024r57a6ed78m91387ee28d0928ba@mail.gmail.com> <1218653302.12777.34.camel@victoria> <20080813204345.GB6642@gmail.com> <604aa7910808131419u71d99a37rc781b43568799ab4@mail.gmail.com> <1218663859.12777.90.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <604aa7910808131451h36cf10dfg808b3aa4e025cb4f@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 1:44 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > Having at least a few PDFs available for some of the different standard > aspect ratios would definitely be a big plus: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_card#Dimensions > > I'm not going to hinge a decision on whether those are ready, though, > especially since the design seems flexible enough for all the aspect > ratios shown there. There are all sorts of crazy business card formats > out there, after all. > > Here's the Glabels DTD in case it helps: > http://glabels.sourceforge.net/doc/glabels-2.2.dtd.txt > if Ian is clever enough to adopt this..we can also think about....stickers...and uhm...cd labels...and other such adhesive jazz...generated on demand..at worldwide events. So there's a long term payoff if we can support the templating glabels is doing. -jef -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kwade at redhat.com Thu Aug 14 14:57:24 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 07:57:24 -0700 Subject: Request for Trademark Approval (BrOffice.org Spin) In-Reply-To: <1218655309.3288.41.camel@amd5600> References: <1218655309.3288.41.camel@amd5600> Message-ID: <1218725844.18668.221.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Wed, 2008-08-13 at 16:21 -0300, Igor Pires Soares wrote: > Hello! > > As one of the steps to get the BrOffice.org Spin approved for Fedora 10 > this request will clarify some points about the spin concept, also > described in the Spin Feature Page [1]. This seems very straightforward to me (a "no brainer".) All of the hard work was already done by BrOffice.org. Thanks to everyone for resolving this. Two quick questions, please pardon my ignorance if these are already covered in the spin process: 1. The .ks file includes replacing Fedora logos with the generic logo set. Are you reverting that to use Fedora logos when you get the trademark approval? 2. The .ks removes the 'codeina' package to save space. Is those going to break the user's experience compared to stock Fedora, when that user tries to play a media file without the codecs installed? I haven't looked to see if we've replaced the need for codeina yet, so this might not even be a valid concern. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Sr. Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kanarip at kanarip.com Thu Aug 14 15:54:48 2008 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 17:54:48 +0200 Subject: Request for Trademark Approval (BrOffice.org Spin) In-Reply-To: <1218725844.18668.221.camel@calliope.phig.org> References: <1218655309.3288.41.camel@amd5600> <1218725844.18668.221.camel@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <48A45548.4020901@kanarip.com> Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > 1. The .ks file includes replacing Fedora logos with the generic logo > set. Are you reverting that to use Fedora logos when you get the > trademark approval? > That is going to be the case, yes. Before Board trademark approval is final, we cannot have the kickstart in our little secret GIT repo (soonish also a package) if it's not properly re- or debranded, and when the Board does approve trademark usage we remove the re/debranding. > 2. The .ks removes the 'codeina' package to save space. Is those going > to break the user's experience compared to stock Fedora, when that user > tries to play a media file without the codecs installed? > I'll leave this one to Igor ;-) Kind regards, Jeroen van Meeuwen -kanarip From igorsoares at gmail.com Thu Aug 14 18:32:25 2008 From: igorsoares at gmail.com (Igor Pires Soares) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 15:32:25 -0300 Subject: Request for Trademark Approval (BrOffice.org Spin) In-Reply-To: <48A45548.4020901@kanarip.com> References: <1218655309.3288.41.camel@amd5600> <1218725844.18668.221.camel@calliope.phig.org> <48A45548.4020901@kanarip.com> Message-ID: <1218738745.4284.12.camel@amd5600> Em Qui, 2008-08-14 ?s 17:54 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen escreveu: > Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > > 1. The .ks file includes replacing Fedora logos with the generic logo > > set. Are you reverting that to use Fedora logos when you get the > > trademark approval? > > > > That is going to be the case, yes. Before Board trademark approval is > final, we cannot have the kickstart in our little secret GIT repo > (soonish also a package) if it's not properly re- or debranded, and when > the Board does approve trademark usage we remove the re/debranding. Right! > > 2. The .ks removes the 'codeina' package to save space. Is those going > > to break the user's experience compared to stock Fedora, when that user > > tries to play a media file without the codecs installed? > > > > I'll leave this one to Igor ;-) The only reason why I removed codeina package is because it is not localized at this time. My plan is to have it translated for F10 but it has to be done in a different way since codeina is not integrated with Damned Lies/Transifex. Codeina is a small package and I can put it the spin, but right now I don't see the point in having a non-localized package included. But if you think it should be included anyway I can do it. Regards, Igor Pires Soares From stickster at gmail.com Thu Aug 14 23:15:13 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 19:15:13 -0400 Subject: Important infrastructure announcement Message-ID: <1218755713.15419.9.camel@victoria> The Fedora Infrastructure team is currently investigating an issue in the infrastructure systems. That process may result in service outages, for which we apologize in advance. We're still assessing the end-user impact of the situation, but as a precaution, we recommend you not download or update any additional packages on your Fedora systems. We'll share updates as we develop more information. Those updates will be published here on the public fedora-announce-list: https://redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-announce-list Thanks for your patience as we continue working on this. -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Thu Aug 14 23:30:24 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 01:30:24 +0200 Subject: Important infrastructure announcement Message-ID: <000701c8fe65$b9c1ffb0$ba00000a@grecom.local> The Fedora Infrastructure team is currently investigating an issue in the infrastructure systems. That process may result in service outages, for which we apologize in advance. We're still assessing the end-user impact of the situation, but as a precaution, we recommend you not download or update any additional packages on your Fedora systems. We'll share updates as we develop more information. Those updates will be published here on the public fedora-announce-list: https://redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-announce-list Thanks for your patience as we continue working on this. -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: -------------- next part -------------- -- fedora-announce-list mailing list fedora-announce-list at redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-announce-list From stickster at gmail.com Thu Aug 14 23:30:24 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 01:30:24 +0200 Subject: Important infrastructure announcement Message-ID: <000301c8fe65$b9bfb5c0$ba00000a@grecom.local> The Fedora Infrastructure team is currently investigating an issue in the infrastructure systems. That process may result in service outages, for which we apologize in advance. We're still assessing the end-user impact of the situation, but as a precaution, we recommend you not download or update any additional packages on your Fedora systems. We'll share updates as we develop more information. Those updates will be published here on the public fedora-announce-list: https://redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-announce-list Thanks for your patience as we continue working on this. -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: -------------- next part -------------- -- fedora-announce-list mailing list fedora-announce-list at redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-announce-list From dwmw2 at infradead.org Fri Aug 15 16:57:03 2008 From: dwmw2 at infradead.org (David Woodhouse) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 17:57:03 +0100 Subject: Business card design In-Reply-To: <20080813212915.GG6642@gmail.com> References: <1218648084.3893.67.camel@victoria> <604aa7910808131024r57a6ed78m91387ee28d0928ba@mail.gmail.com> <1218653302.12777.34.camel@victoria> <20080813204345.GB6642@gmail.com> <604aa7910808131419u71d99a37rc781b43568799ab4@mail.gmail.com> <20080813212915.GG6642@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1218819423.3184.135.camel@pmac.infradead.org> On Wed, 2008-08-13 at 16:29 -0500, Ian Weller wrote: > > Apologies, I *should* have pointed here: > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Business_cards Looks good. Note that it should have the full PGP key _fingerprint_ though, not just the ID. -- David Woodhouse Open Source Technology Centre David.Woodhouse at intel.com Intel Corporation From stickster at gmail.com Fri Aug 15 17:04:05 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 17:04:05 +0000 Subject: Business card design In-Reply-To: <1218819423.3184.135.camel@pmac.infradead.org> References: <1218648084.3893.67.camel@victoria> <604aa7910808131024r57a6ed78m91387ee28d0928ba@mail.gmail.com> <1218653302.12777.34.camel@victoria> <20080813204345.GB6642@gmail.com> <604aa7910808131419u71d99a37rc781b43568799ab4@mail.gmail.com> <20080813212915.GG6642@gmail.com> <1218819423.3184.135.camel@pmac.infradead.org> Message-ID: <1218819845.4589.73.camel@victoria> On Fri, 2008-08-15 at 17:57 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: > On Wed, 2008-08-13 at 16:29 -0500, Ian Weller wrote: > > > > Apologies, I *should* have pointed here: > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Business_cards > > Looks good. Note that it should have the full PGP key _fingerprint_ > though, not just the ID. I originally advocated for that too, with the ID being boldface at the end (nice design touch I saw elsewhere). But I think there was a concern about the text length. -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From dwmw2 at infradead.org Sat Aug 16 10:14:33 2008 From: dwmw2 at infradead.org (David Woodhouse) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2008 11:14:33 +0100 Subject: Business card design In-Reply-To: <1218819845.4589.73.camel@victoria> References: <1218648084.3893.67.camel@victoria> <604aa7910808131024r57a6ed78m91387ee28d0928ba@mail.gmail.com> <1218653302.12777.34.camel@victoria> <20080813204345.GB6642@gmail.com> <604aa7910808131419u71d99a37rc781b43568799ab4@mail.gmail.com> <20080813212915.GG6642@gmail.com> <1218819423.3184.135.camel@pmac.infradead.org> <1218819845.4589.73.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <1218881673.3184.200.camel@pmac.infradead.org> On Fri, 2008-08-15 at 17:04 +0000, Paul W. Frields wrote: > I originally advocated for that too, with the ID being boldface at the > end (nice design touch I saw elsewhere). But I think there was a > concern about the text length. The whole point is the text length. It's not impossible to generate another key with the same ID. It is considered impossible to generate another key with the same fingerprint. Putting the key ID on the card is pointless -- that's what the public key servers exist for. And you have to get the key from one of those anyway. It's the _fingerprint_ we need, because if you've been handed my card in person, and the fingerprint matches, then you know you can _trust_ the key you've downloaded. -- David Woodhouse Open Source Technology Centre David.Woodhouse at intel.com Intel Corporation From dev at nigelj.com Sat Aug 16 10:19:51 2008 From: dev at nigelj.com (Nigel Jones) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2008 22:19:51 +1200 Subject: Business card design In-Reply-To: <1218881673.3184.200.camel@pmac.infradead.org> References: <1218648084.3893.67.camel@victoria> <604aa7910808131024r57a6ed78m91387ee28d0928ba@mail.gmail.com> <1218653302.12777.34.camel@victoria> <20080813204345.GB6642@gmail.com> <604aa7910808131419u71d99a37rc781b43568799ab4@mail.gmail.com> <20080813212915.GG6642@gmail.com> <1218819423.3184.135.camel@pmac.infradead.org> <1218819845.4589.73.camel@victoria> <1218881673.3184.200.camel@pmac.infradead.org> Message-ID: <1218881991.6714.7.camel@fantail.jnet.net.nz> On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 11:14 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: > On Fri, 2008-08-15 at 17:04 +0000, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > I originally advocated for that too, with the ID being boldface at the > > end (nice design touch I saw elsewhere). But I think there was a > > concern about the text length. > > The whole point is the text length. > > It's not impossible to generate another key with the same ID. It is > considered impossible to generate another key with the same fingerprint. > > Putting the key ID on the card is pointless -- that's what the public > key servers exist for. And you have to get the key from one of those > anyway. > > It's the _fingerprint_ we need, because if you've been handed my card in > person, and the fingerprint matches, then you know you can _trust_ the > key you've downloaded. Lets emboss it round the sides :) But seriously, maybe spread it over two lines or something if we have to. Or the other approach is, also allow to print the Key ID on the front, and the fingerprint on the back? - Nigel -- Nigel Jones From stickster at gmail.com Sat Aug 16 14:27:53 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2008 10:27:53 -0400 Subject: Business card design In-Reply-To: <1218881991.6714.7.camel@fantail.jnet.net.nz> References: <1218648084.3893.67.camel@victoria> <604aa7910808131024r57a6ed78m91387ee28d0928ba@mail.gmail.com> <1218653302.12777.34.camel@victoria> <20080813204345.GB6642@gmail.com> <604aa7910808131419u71d99a37rc781b43568799ab4@mail.gmail.com> <20080813212915.GG6642@gmail.com> <1218819423.3184.135.camel@pmac.infradead.org> <1218819845.4589.73.camel@victoria> <1218881673.3184.200.camel@pmac.infradead.org> <1218881991.6714.7.camel@fantail.jnet.net.nz> Message-ID: <1218896873.5845.9.camel@victoria> On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 22:19 +1200, Nigel Jones wrote: > On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 11:14 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: > > On Fri, 2008-08-15 at 17:04 +0000, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > > I originally advocated for that too, with the ID being boldface at the > > > end (nice design touch I saw elsewhere). But I think there was a > > > concern about the text length. > > > > The whole point is the text length. > > > > It's not impossible to generate another key with the same ID. It is > > considered impossible to generate another key with the same fingerprint. > > > > Putting the key ID on the card is pointless -- that's what the public > > key servers exist for. And you have to get the key from one of those > > anyway. > > > > It's the _fingerprint_ we need, because if you've been handed my card in > > person, and the fingerprint matches, then you know you can _trust_ the > > key you've downloaded. > Lets emboss it round the sides :) > > But seriously, maybe spread it over two lines or something if we have > to. > > Or the other approach is, also allow to print the Key ID on the front, > and the fingerprint on the back? We don't want to require two-sided cards just to have secure communications. And yes, the text length is the point, I know how GPG keysigning works. ;-) but it also gave the designer trouble. I'm not saying that's the primary consideration, just that's why it's not there already. Furthermore, for it to be trusted, you also need to verify my identity with some other trust relationship than my handing you a business card. If you're meeting me for the first time, that's not sufficient. All that aside, if we want the whole key fingerprint on the card, great -- the code shouldn't be that hard to change to make this an option. -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ianweller at gmail.com Sat Aug 16 16:09:16 2008 From: ianweller at gmail.com (Ian Weller) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2008 11:09:16 -0500 Subject: Business card design In-Reply-To: <1218896873.5845.9.camel@victoria> References: <604aa7910808131024r57a6ed78m91387ee28d0928ba@mail.gmail.com> <1218653302.12777.34.camel@victoria> <20080813204345.GB6642@gmail.com> <604aa7910808131419u71d99a37rc781b43568799ab4@mail.gmail.com> <20080813212915.GG6642@gmail.com> <1218819423.3184.135.camel@pmac.infradead.org> <1218819845.4589.73.camel@victoria> <1218881673.3184.200.camel@pmac.infradead.org> <1218881991.6714.7.camel@fantail.jnet.net.nz> <1218896873.5845.9.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <20080816160916.GA9164@gmail.com> On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 10:27:53AM -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > All that aside, if we want the whole key fingerprint on the card, great > -- the code shouldn't be that hard to change to make this an option. > And it isn't. There are instructions at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Business_cards Change 'gpgid' in --info to 'gpgfingerprint'. Done. -- Ian Weller http://ianweller.org GnuPG fingerprint: E51E 0517 7A92 70A2 4226 B050 87ED 7C97 EFA8 4A36 "Technology is a word that describes something that doesn't work yet." ~ Douglas Adams -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stickster at gmail.com Sat Aug 16 16:38:39 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2008 12:38:39 -0400 Subject: Business card design In-Reply-To: <20080816160916.GA9164@gmail.com> References: <604aa7910808131024r57a6ed78m91387ee28d0928ba@mail.gmail.com> <1218653302.12777.34.camel@victoria> <20080813204345.GB6642@gmail.com> <604aa7910808131419u71d99a37rc781b43568799ab4@mail.gmail.com> <20080813212915.GG6642@gmail.com> <1218819423.3184.135.camel@pmac.infradead.org> <1218819845.4589.73.camel@victoria> <1218881673.3184.200.camel@pmac.infradead.org> <1218881991.6714.7.camel@fantail.jnet.net.nz> <1218896873.5845.9.camel@victoria> <20080816160916.GA9164@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1218904719.5845.33.camel@victoria> On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 11:09 -0500, Ian Weller wrote: > On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 10:27:53AM -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > All that aside, if we want the whole key fingerprint on the card, great > > -- the code shouldn't be that hard to change to make this an option. > > > And it isn't. There are instructions at > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Business_cards > Change 'gpgid' in --info to 'gpgfingerprint'. Done. Beautiful! :-) -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From chitlesh.goorah at gmail.com Mon Aug 18 07:58:01 2008 From: chitlesh.goorah at gmail.com (Chitlesh GOORAH) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 09:58:01 +0200 Subject: Request for Trademark Approval (Fedora Electronic Lab Spin) Message-ID: <50baabb30808180058n1d0224c1p2da7ec70999586a0@mail.gmail.com> Hello there, Yet again, Fedora Electronic Lab wants to be part of the huge feature list of Fedora's next release. Though, I believe everyone is familiar to FEL, I would welcome everyone to have a look at its feature page: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/FedoraElectronicLab Thereby, I'm requesting Fedora Advisory Board's approval to use Fedora Trademark on the FEL spin (based on F10 Cambridge). The kickstart file (for the FEL's livedvd) can be found on the fedora hosted git repositories. Unfortunately, I can't access that url right now. But I assume you can find it easily :) Kind Regards, Chitlesh GOORAH From poelstra at redhat.com Mon Aug 18 18:57:04 2008 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 11:57:04 -0700 Subject: Request for Trademark Approval (Fedora Electronic Lab Spin) In-Reply-To: <50baabb30808180058n1d0224c1p2da7ec70999586a0@mail.gmail.com> References: <50baabb30808180058n1d0224c1p2da7ec70999586a0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48A9C600.8000509@redhat.com> Chitlesh GOORAH said the following on 08/18/2008 12:58 AM Pacific Time: > Hello there, > > Yet again, Fedora Electronic Lab wants to be part of the huge feature > list of Fedora's next release. > > Though, I believe everyone is familiar to FEL, I would welcome > everyone to have a look at its feature page: > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/FedoraElectronicLab > Could you create a separate/new feature page for Fedora 10? It looks like you've modified the Fedora 8 version which means that anyone with a link from when Fedora 8 shipped will not be getting the correct information as it relates to the Fedora 8 spin. John From chitlesh.goorah at gmail.com Tue Aug 19 08:42:29 2008 From: chitlesh.goorah at gmail.com (Chitlesh GOORAH) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 10:42:29 +0200 Subject: Request for Trademark Approval (Fedora Electronic Lab Spin) In-Reply-To: <48A9C600.8000509@redhat.com> References: <50baabb30808180058n1d0224c1p2da7ec70999586a0@mail.gmail.com> <48A9C600.8000509@redhat.com> Message-ID: <50baabb30808190142g188b3450he4d871269ceddf0e@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 8:57 PM, John Poelstra wrote: > Could you create a separate/new feature page for Fedora 10? > > It looks like you've modified the Fedora 8 version which means that anyone > with a link from when Fedora 8 shipped will not be getting the correct > information as it relates to the Fedora 8 spin. Ok, I've splitted it : F10 : https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/FedoraElectronicLab F8 : https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/FedoraElectronicLab8 Chitlesh From stickster at gmail.com Tue Aug 19 12:59:20 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 12:59:20 +0000 Subject: Request for Trademark Approval (Fedora Electronic Lab Spin) In-Reply-To: <50baabb30808190142g188b3450he4d871269ceddf0e@mail.gmail.com> References: <50baabb30808180058n1d0224c1p2da7ec70999586a0@mail.gmail.com> <48A9C600.8000509@redhat.com> <50baabb30808190142g188b3450he4d871269ceddf0e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1219150760.25510.307.camel@victoria> On Tue, 2008-08-19 at 10:42 +0200, Chitlesh GOORAH wrote: > On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 8:57 PM, John Poelstra wrote: > > Could you create a separate/new feature page for Fedora 10? > > > > It looks like you've modified the Fedora 8 version which means that anyone > > with a link from when Fedora 8 shipped will not be getting the correct > > information as it relates to the Fedora 8 spin. > > Ok, > I've splitted it : > F10 : https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/FedoraElectronicLab > F8 : https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/FedoraElectronicLab8 Chitlesh, The Board can't meet today (too many people out of pocket, or busy) but I'm collecting approval votes for this spin, and the BrOffice.org spin, via email. I should be able to let folks know via email and this list very shortly. -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From poelstra at redhat.com Tue Aug 19 15:19:18 2008 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 08:19:18 -0700 Subject: Request for Trademark Approval (Fedora Electronic Lab Spin) In-Reply-To: <50baabb30808190142g188b3450he4d871269ceddf0e@mail.gmail.com> References: <50baabb30808180058n1d0224c1p2da7ec70999586a0@mail.gmail.com> <48A9C600.8000509@redhat.com> <50baabb30808190142g188b3450he4d871269ceddf0e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48AAE476.8080102@redhat.com> Chitlesh GOORAH said the following on 08/19/2008 01:42 AM Pacific Time: > On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 8:57 PM, John Poelstra wrote: >> Could you create a separate/new feature page for Fedora 10? >> >> It looks like you've modified the Fedora 8 version which means that anyone >> with a link from when Fedora 8 shipped will not be getting the correct >> information as it relates to the Fedora 8 spin. > > Ok, > I've splitted it : > F10 : https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/FedoraElectronicLab > F8 : https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/FedoraElectronicLab8 > Sorry to be a pain, but you still have the same problem :) The original page name should always point to the original content. The new name should be unique... for example: FedoraElectronicLabF10 John From kanarip at kanarip.com Tue Aug 19 23:15:07 2008 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 01:15:07 +0200 Subject: Request for Trademark Approval (Fedora Electronic Lab Spin) In-Reply-To: <48AAE476.8080102@redhat.com> References: <50baabb30808180058n1d0224c1p2da7ec70999586a0@mail.gmail.com> <48A9C600.8000509@redhat.com> <50baabb30808190142g188b3450he4d871269ceddf0e@mail.gmail.com> <48AAE476.8080102@redhat.com> Message-ID: <48AB53FB.4060309@kanarip.com> John Poelstra wrote: > Chitlesh GOORAH said the following on 08/19/2008 01:42 AM Pacific Time: >> On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 8:57 PM, John Poelstra wrote: >>> Could you create a separate/new feature page for Fedora 10? >>> >>> It looks like you've modified the Fedora 8 version which means that >>> anyone >>> with a link from when Fedora 8 shipped will not be getting the correct >>> information as it relates to the Fedora 8 spin. >> >> Ok, >> I've splitted it : >> F10 : https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/FedoraElectronicLab >> F8 : https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/FedoraElectronicLab8 >> > > Sorry to be a pain, but you still have the same problem :) The original > page name should always point to the original content. The new name > should be unique... for example: FedoraElectronicLabF10 > Is it safe to assume that given that schema, Spins *always* have to have the release version appended to it's name? Kind regards, Jeroen van Meeuwen -kanarip From chitlesh.goorah at gmail.com Thu Aug 21 19:48:35 2008 From: chitlesh.goorah at gmail.com (Chitlesh GOORAH) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 21:48:35 +0200 Subject: Request for Trademark Approval (Fedora Electronic Lab Spin) In-Reply-To: <48AB53FB.4060309@kanarip.com> References: <50baabb30808180058n1d0224c1p2da7ec70999586a0@mail.gmail.com> <48A9C600.8000509@redhat.com> <50baabb30808190142g188b3450he4d871269ceddf0e@mail.gmail.com> <48AAE476.8080102@redhat.com> <48AB53FB.4060309@kanarip.com> Message-ID: <50baabb30808211248o5a471c5av7303f7bbae8200dd@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 1:15 AM, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: >> Sorry to be a pain, but you still have the same problem :) The original >> page name should always point to the original content. The new name should >> be unique... for example: FedoraElectronicLabF10 > > Is it safe to assume that given that schema, Spins *always* have to have the > release version appended to it's name? > > Kind regards, Hello, There are 2 things : * Aside this wiki page naming issue is there any real issue before approval ? * Well I tend to agree with Jeroen. However I agree with john as well concerning a well maintained wiki.. But in practice, that makes hell for maintainers. During the past releases, all the marketing news sites which talked or reviewed FEL point to * https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/FedoraElectronicLab I prefer to give one main URL to people, lecturers or engineers. Even if 8 months later that people decide to visit that URL I gave him/her for whatever reason, he/she will have updated contents on the page. That is why I move old contents to : * https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/FedoraElectronicLab8 Most FEL users don't update their fedora box each 6 months, or perhaps they don't even follow what fedora is doing. This is the case of many CAD engineers. That is why I like one URL, less trouble end users and less chance to lose FEL users :). Chitlesh From bjorn.sund at it.uib.no Thu Aug 21 19:58:55 2008 From: bjorn.sund at it.uib.no (Bj=?ISO-8859-1?B?+A==?=rn Tore Sund) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 21:58:55 +0200 Subject: non-disclosure of infrastructure problem a management issue? Message-ID: I have been advised that this is a better list than fedora-list to send this email to. It has now been a full week since the first announcement that Fedora had "infrastructure problems" and to stop updating systems. Since then there has been two updates to the announcement, none of which have modified the "don't update" advice and noen of which has been specific as to the exact nature of the problems. At one point we received a list of servers, but not services, which were back up and running. The University of Bergen has 500 linux clients running Fedora. We average one reinstall/fresh install per day, often doing quite a lot more. Installs and reinstalls has had to stop completely, nightly updates have stopped, and until the nature of the problem is revealed we don't even know for certain whether it is safe for our IT staff to type admin passwords to our (RHEL-based, for the most part) servers from these work stations. Sometimes unfortunate events happen beyond anyone's control. We understand this as well as anyone. We trust the assurances that the infrastructure team is working hard on resolving the matter and are greatful to them for the job they do. So far nothing that has happened with this issue has reflected poorly on them. Sadly, the same cannot be said about the Management of the Fedora project. Their choice of complete non-disclosure is enough to eradicate any and all confidence that Fedora is a trustworthy platform for Linux installations. What information they have released has been deliberately vague and, frankly, useless. For a day or two to secure things this may be a workable strategy. For a full week, not giving the community participants any chance whatsoever to protect themselves from threats indicated but not specified? This is poor management and poor judgement and reflects very badly not only on the Fedora project but on Fedora's RedHat sponsor as well. The issue is more than serious enough and has gone on for more than long enough that someone higher up the scale should have stepped in a long time ago and made sure that all relevant info was released to the community. We strongly encourage both the Fedora management and RedHat as a Fedora sponsor to immediately release any and all information relating to the current infrastructure problems. Regards, -BT, linux client architect, University of Bergen -- Bj?rn Tore Sund Phone: 555-84894 Email: bjorn.sund at it.uib.no IT department VIP: 81724 Support: http://bs.uib.no Univ. of Bergen When in fear and when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout. From tcallawa at redhat.com Thu Aug 21 20:03:44 2008 From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom "spot" Callaway) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 16:03:44 -0400 Subject: non-disclosure of infrastructure problem a management issue? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1219349024.2397.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2008-08-21 at 21:58 +0200, Bj?rn Tore Sund wrote: > We strongly encourage both the Fedora management and RedHat as a > Fedora > sponsor to immediately release any and all information relating to the > current infrastructure problems. Without being specific, know that your concerns have been heard, and are in the process of being addressed. Please don't ask me for more details, it is not my place to give them. Thanks, Tom Callaway, Fedora Legal From jwboyer at gmail.com Thu Aug 21 20:06:48 2008 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 16:06:48 -0400 Subject: non-disclosure of infrastructure problem a management issue? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1219349209.26429.59.camel@jdub.homelinux.org> On Thu, 2008-08-21 at 21:58 +0200, Bj?rn Tore Sund wrote: > Sadly, the same cannot be said about the Management of the Fedora project. > Their choice of complete non-disclosure is enough to eradicate any and all > confidence that Fedora is a trustworthy platform for Linux installations. > What information they have released has been deliberately vague and, > frankly, useless. For a day or two to secure things this may be a workable > strategy. For a full week, not giving the community participants any chance > whatsoever to protect themselves from threats indicated but not specified? > This is poor management and poor judgement and reflects very badly not only > on the Fedora project but on Fedora's RedHat sponsor as well. The issue is > more than serious enough and has gone on for more than long enough that > someone higher up the scale should have stepped in a long time ago and made > sure that all relevant info was released to the community. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by management. If you mean the governing bodies of Fedora, I can assure you that FESCo _did_ ask to be informed and we told they could not be. I know this because I was the one that asked. Whether all of the Fedora Board (the only group higher than FESCo) has been informed or not, I have no idea. josh From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Aug 21 21:06:23 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 13:06:23 -0800 Subject: non-disclosure of infrastructure problem a management issue? In-Reply-To: <1219349209.26429.59.camel@jdub.homelinux.org> References: <1219349209.26429.59.camel@jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: <604aa7910808211406wf58fa83q6c1e68c19eab2299@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 12:06 PM, Josh Boyer wrote: > Whether all of the Fedora Board (the only group higher than FESCo) has > been informed or not, I have no idea. In my capacity a Board member I have not been informed of specifics. And to be quite honest, having me know anything doesn't automatically help get things resolved with the infrastructure. Nor would it mean that I would choose to disclose information even if I knew it. Nor would it mean that I would choose to disclose that I knew information. The Board has been told its being worked on by or infrastructure, I've poked at individuals probably like you have and gotten assurances that its being worked on. -jef From jeffreyt at fedoraproject.org Fri Aug 22 00:41:32 2008 From: jeffreyt at fedoraproject.org (Jeffrey Tadlock) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 20:41:32 -0400 Subject: non-disclosure of infrastructure problem a management issue? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <10e0a9b00808211741tb3b6483m898aecd563457dff@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 3:58 PM, Bj?rn Tore Sund wrote: > It has now been a full week since the first announcement that Fedora had > "infrastructure problems" and to stop updating systems. Since then there has > been two updates to the announcement, none of which have modified the "don't > update" advice and noen of which has been specific as to the exact nature of > the problems. The vague don't update your systems portion has been the most frustrating thing for me so far. As a Fedora contributor I can handle the infrastructure systems being down. And despite the lack of transparency behind this - I know there are many people on the infrastructure team that care as much about openness and transparency as I do - if not more. So the fact they aren't jumping up and down means there must be other factors at play that they simply cannot disclose for some reason. I trust them, so I trust those decisions. With that said - I think the users needed to know a lot more - maybe not specifics of the situation, but at least things they might need to do to repair or know whether they can trust their systems. The vagueness of announcement emails has done a disservice to Fedora users. Saying do not update your systems and providing no details of what is meant by that in a weeks time is difficult to excuse. What if a user did update before seeing the announcement? Is their system to be trusted? Is it safe? Should they reinstall, remove bad packages? What steps should they be taking if they might have updated before seeing the announcement? A week is a long time to go not knowing just how safe your system or what it might have been exposed to or even whether it is safe to trust updates again. ~Jeffrey From stickster at gmail.com Fri Aug 22 19:40:23 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2008 15:40:23 -0400 Subject: Infrastructure update link (LATE) Message-ID: <1219434023.16703.105.camel@victoria> Infrastructure report, 2008-08-22 UTC 1200: http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-announce-list/2008-August/msg00012.html I neglected to forward URLs to some other important lists, and apologize profusely for the oversight. -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From dominik at greysector.net Fri Aug 22 20:00:09 2008 From: dominik at greysector.net (Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2008 22:00:09 +0200 Subject: Infrastructure update link (LATE) In-Reply-To: <1219434023.16703.105.camel@victoria> References: <1219434023.16703.105.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <20080822200008.GA9944@mokona.greysector.net> On Friday, 22 August 2008 at 21:40, Paul W. Frields wrote: > Infrastructure report, 2008-08-22 UTC 1200: > http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-announce-list/2008-August/msg00012.html > > I neglected to forward URLs to some other important lists, and apologize > profusely for the oversight. So. Now that we do have a vague idea what happened, I'd like to ask why was even that vague information withheld for so long? Not to mention there are still many unanswered questions: Which servers were compromised? How did the attacker get in? What exactly did they do? ...and a bunch of others, but let's begin with those. Regards, R. -- Fedora http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Rathann Livna http://rpm.livna.org | MPlayer http://mplayerhq.hu "Faith manages." -- Delenn to Lennier in Babylon 5:"Confessions and Lamentations" From stickster at gmail.com Fri Aug 22 21:16:33 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2008 17:16:33 -0400 Subject: Infrastructure update link (LATE) In-Reply-To: <20080822200008.GA9944@mokona.greysector.net> References: <1219434023.16703.105.camel@victoria> <20080822200008.GA9944@mokona.greysector.net> Message-ID: <1219439793.16703.207.camel@victoria> On Fri, 2008-08-22 at 22:00 +0200, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote: > On Friday, 22 August 2008 at 21:40, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > Infrastructure report, 2008-08-22 UTC 1200: > > http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-announce-list/2008-August/msg00012.html > > > > I neglected to forward URLs to some other important lists, and apologize > > profusely for the oversight. > > So. Now that we do have a vague idea what happened, I'd like to ask why > was even that vague information withheld for so long? > > Not to mention there are still many unanswered questions: > Which servers were compromised? > How did the attacker get in? > What exactly did they do? > ...and a bunch of others, but let's begin with those. This is an ongoing matter, so I will get more information out to the community as soon as it becomes available. -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Fri Aug 22 21:22:48 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2008 17:22:48 -0400 Subject: Infrastructure update link (LATE) In-Reply-To: <20080822200008.GA9944@mokona.greysector.net> References: <1219434023.16703.105.camel@victoria> <20080822200008.GA9944@mokona.greysector.net> Message-ID: <1219440168.16703.215.camel@victoria> On Fri, 2008-08-22 at 22:00 +0200, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote: > On Friday, 22 August 2008 at 21:40, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > Infrastructure report, 2008-08-22 UTC 1200: > > http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-announce-list/2008-August/msg00012.html > > > > I neglected to forward URLs to some other important lists, and apologize > > profusely for the oversight. > > So. Now that we do have a vague idea what happened, I'd like to ask why > was even that vague information withheld for so long? > > Not to mention there are still many unanswered questions: > Which servers were compromised? > How did the attacker get in? > What exactly did they do? > ...and a bunch of others, but let's begin with those. I realize my first answer was not good -- obviously there have been many such queries over the last week. I apologize, and allow me do a better job below. If you've ever been involved in a security investigation, you already know that facts emerge over time. With every disclosure there's a risk of getting those facts wrong, or having to issue retractions. Disclosure at an inappropriate time gives people the mistaken impression one is not being truthful, when that's not the case. The disclosures we've made up to and including this point have been factual, in the interest of protecting the security of our millions of users, and in the further interest of allowing proper investigation and analysis of an ongoing matter. As I stated in the announcement, I'll continue to provide information as it becomes available. -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From smooge at gmail.com Fri Aug 22 21:36:27 2008 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2008 15:36:27 -0600 Subject: Infrastructure update link (LATE) In-Reply-To: <20080822200008.GA9944@mokona.greysector.net> References: <1219434023.16703.105.camel@victoria> <20080822200008.GA9944@mokona.greysector.net> Message-ID: <80d7e4090808221436g6c8981a5jc85ff9516d241cad@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Aug 22, 2008 at 2:00 PM, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote: > On Friday, 22 August 2008 at 21:40, Paul W. Frields wrote: >> Infrastructure report, 2008-08-22 UTC 1200: >> http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-announce-list/2008-August/msg00012.html >> >> I neglected to forward URLs to some other important lists, and apologize >> profusely for the oversight. > > So. Now that we do have a vague idea what happened, I'd like to ask why > was even that vague information withheld for so long? > > Not to mention there are still many unanswered questions: > Which servers were compromised? > How did the attacker get in? > What exactly did they do? > ...and a bunch of others, but let's begin with those. > The information is probably part of a legal investigation which basically keeps it from being mentioned until various law enforcement agencies allow it to be announced. Releasing the information without clearance from law enforcement means charges of "interfering with an investigation", "contamination of evidence" etc.. which all have nice 5-20 year sentences. -- Stephen J Smoogen. -- BSD/GNU/Linux How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice" From dominik at greysector.net Fri Aug 22 21:55:54 2008 From: dominik at greysector.net (Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2008 23:55:54 +0200 Subject: Infrastructure update link (LATE) In-Reply-To: <80d7e4090808221436g6c8981a5jc85ff9516d241cad@mail.gmail.com> References: <1219434023.16703.105.camel@victoria> <20080822200008.GA9944@mokona.greysector.net> <80d7e4090808221436g6c8981a5jc85ff9516d241cad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080822215554.GA13616@mokona.greysector.net> On Friday, 22 August 2008 at 23:36, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > On Fri, Aug 22, 2008 at 2:00 PM, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski > wrote: > > On Friday, 22 August 2008 at 21:40, Paul W. Frields wrote: > >> Infrastructure report, 2008-08-22 UTC 1200: > >> http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-announce-list/2008-August/msg00012.html > >> > >> I neglected to forward URLs to some other important lists, and apologize > >> profusely for the oversight. > > > > So. Now that we do have a vague idea what happened, I'd like to ask why > > was even that vague information withheld for so long? > > > > Not to mention there are still many unanswered questions: > > Which servers were compromised? > > How did the attacker get in? > > What exactly did they do? > > ...and a bunch of others, but let's begin with those. > > > > The information is probably part of a legal investigation which > basically keeps it from being mentioned until various law enforcement > agencies allow it to be announced. Releasing the information without > clearance from law enforcement means charges of "interfering with an > investigation", "contamination of evidence" etc.. which all have nice > 5-20 year sentences. If that is so then it should've been said. Or is disclosing the reason why you can't say anything also forbidden by law? Regards, R. -- Fedora http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Rathann Livna http://rpm.livna.org | MPlayer http://mplayerhq.hu "Faith manages." -- Delenn to Lennier in Babylon 5:"Confessions and Lamentations" From smooge at gmail.com Fri Aug 22 22:02:03 2008 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2008 16:02:03 -0600 Subject: Infrastructure update link (LATE) In-Reply-To: <20080822215554.GA13616@mokona.greysector.net> References: <1219434023.16703.105.camel@victoria> <20080822200008.GA9944@mokona.greysector.net> <80d7e4090808221436g6c8981a5jc85ff9516d241cad@mail.gmail.com> <20080822215554.GA13616@mokona.greysector.net> Message-ID: <80d7e4090808221502m508d19b1hd33270c1fb850cde@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Aug 22, 2008 at 3:55 PM, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote: > On Friday, 22 August 2008 at 23:36, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: >> On Fri, Aug 22, 2008 at 2:00 PM, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski >> wrote: >> > On Friday, 22 August 2008 at 21:40, Paul W. Frields wrote: >> >> Infrastructure report, 2008-08-22 UTC 1200: >> >> http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-announce-list/2008-August/msg00012.html >> >> >> >> I neglected to forward URLs to some other important lists, and apologize >> >> profusely for the oversight. >> > >> > So. Now that we do have a vague idea what happened, I'd like to ask why >> > was even that vague information withheld for so long? >> > >> > Not to mention there are still many unanswered questions: >> > Which servers were compromised? >> > How did the attacker get in? >> > What exactly did they do? >> > ...and a bunch of others, but let's begin with those. >> > >> >> The information is probably part of a legal investigation which >> basically keeps it from being mentioned until various law enforcement >> agencies allow it to be announced. Releasing the information without >> clearance from law enforcement means charges of "interfering with an >> investigation", "contamination of evidence" etc.. which all have nice >> 5-20 year sentences. > > If that is so then it should've been said. Or is disclosing the reason > why you can't say anything also forbidden by law? In the events I have been in, yes it is also forbidden by law unless it has been ok'd by the agencies and courts. [It gets even weirder if you are dealing with multiple agencies or international organizations.. it might be years before you are allowed to say that French police were involved because they forgot to tell the US side it was ok to say so.] In any case, I am just speculating and probably causing Paul to get even a larger ulcer so shutting up now. -- Stephen J Smoogen. -- BSD/GNU/Linux How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice" From jbwillia at math.vt.edu Mon Aug 25 01:02:20 2008 From: jbwillia at math.vt.edu (ben) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 21:02:20 -0400 Subject: Fedora Unity releases Fedora 8 Re-Spin Message-ID: <48B2049C.3030907@math.vt.edu> The Fedora Unity Project is proud to announce the release of new ISO Re-Spins (DVD Sets) of Fedora 8. These Re-Spin ISOs are based on the officially released Fedora 8 installation media and include all updates released as of August 14th, 2008. The ISO images are available for i386, x86_64 and PPC architectures via Jigdo and Torrent starting Sun August 24th, 2008. Go to http://spins.fedoraunity.org/spins to get the bits! DVD Media Only Due to packaging problems, this is a DVD Only Re-spin Bugs solved in this Re-Spin With this particular Re-Spin, fixes for the following bugs are included, like on our last Fedora 8 Re-Spin releases[1 ,2 ]: * #372011, "depsolve hang in F7 to F8 upgrade" We have incorporated the updates image made by Jeremy Katz (comment #11 in the bug), and we have verified that a full Fedora 7 installation upgrades to Fedora 8 without issues. * #367731, "anaconda fails on Via VPSD motherboard" On i586 hardware, the installation media wouldn't boot and thus renders itself unusable. We have backported the fix for this issue from anaconda development to the Fedora 8 stock anaconda, as anaconda is not updated during a release. * #369611, "yum upgrade with selinux-policy-strict installed fails" A dependency problem in selinux-policy-strict during upgrades is resolved in an updated selinux-policy-strict package, which is included in the Re-Spin * #404601, "anaconda crashes on 'cdrom' line in kickstart" Updates to pykickstart incorporated in the rebuilt installer resolve this issue. * #420281, Cannot find kickstart file during unattended installation The kickstart file name searched for after booting from CD or DVD with option "linux ks" and using a dhcp and nfs server is wrong. Attention: Changes in this Re-Spin Also, we would like to let you know that NetworkManager is now installed by default, and for people doing minimal installations; this service will need to be disabled before the network starts to work. Thanks to We would like to give a special thanks to the following for testing this Re-Spin: - zcat Jason Farrell - vwbusguy- Scott Williams - Southern_Gentleman Ben Williams - kanarip Jeroen van Meeuwen Testing Results A full test matrix can be found at our Test Matrix A full list of bugs, packages and changelogs that have been updated in this Re-Spin can be reviewed on http://spins.fedoraunity.org/changelogs/20080814/ Previous Re-Spin (20080501) will expire Due to limited resources, this spin will immediately obsolete 20080501, which will be deleted from our mirrors in the next few days. Fedora Unity has taken up the Re-Spin task to provide the community with the chance to install Fedora with recent updates already included. These updates might otherwise comprise more than 2.05GiB of downloads for a full install. This is a community project, for and by the community. You can contribute to the community by joining our test process. Go to http://spins.fedoraunity.org/spins to get the bits! Assistance Needed If you are interested in helping with the testing or mirroring efforts, please contact the Fedora Unity team. Contact information is available at http://fedoraunity.org/ or the #fedora-unity channel on the Freenode IRC Network (irc.freenode.net). To report bugs in the Re-Spins please use http://bugs.fedoraunity.org/ From kanarip at kanarip.com Thu Aug 28 13:00:22 2008 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 15:00:22 +0200 Subject: Request for Trademark Approval (Fedora Electronic Lab Spin) In-Reply-To: <1219150760.25510.307.camel@victoria> References: <50baabb30808180058n1d0224c1p2da7ec70999586a0@mail.gmail.com> <48A9C600.8000509@redhat.com> <50baabb30808190142g188b3450he4d871269ceddf0e@mail.gmail.com> <1219150760.25510.307.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <48B6A166.4060507@kanarip.com> Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Tue, 2008-08-19 at 10:42 +0200, Chitlesh GOORAH wrote: >> On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 8:57 PM, John Poelstra wrote: >>> Could you create a separate/new feature page for Fedora 10? >>> >>> It looks like you've modified the Fedora 8 version which means that anyone >>> with a link from when Fedora 8 shipped will not be getting the correct >>> information as it relates to the Fedora 8 spin. >> Ok, >> I've splitted it : >> F10 : https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/FedoraElectronicLab >> F8 : https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/FedoraElectronicLab8 > > Chitlesh, > > The Board can't meet today (too many people out of pocket, or busy) but > I'm collecting approval votes for this spin, and the BrOffice.org spin, > via email. I should be able to let folks know via email and this list > very shortly. > Has there been any progress on approving these spin so far? Kind regards, Jeroen van Meeuwen -kanarip From stickster at gmail.com Thu Aug 28 14:42:58 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 08:42:58 -0600 Subject: Request for Trademark Approval (Fedora Electronic Lab Spin) In-Reply-To: <48B6A166.4060507@kanarip.com> References: <50baabb30808180058n1d0224c1p2da7ec70999586a0@mail.gmail.com> <48A9C600.8000509@redhat.com> <50baabb30808190142g188b3450he4d871269ceddf0e@mail.gmail.com> <1219150760.25510.307.camel@victoria> <48B6A166.4060507@kanarip.com> Message-ID: <1219934578.5514.29.camel@victoria> On Thu, 2008-08-28 at 15:00 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > Paul W. Frields wrote: > > On Tue, 2008-08-19 at 10:42 +0200, Chitlesh GOORAH wrote: > >> On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 8:57 PM, John Poelstra wrote: > >>> Could you create a separate/new feature page for Fedora 10? > >>> > >>> It looks like you've modified the Fedora 8 version which means that anyone > >>> with a link from when Fedora 8 shipped will not be getting the correct > >>> information as it relates to the Fedora 8 spin. > >> Ok, > >> I've splitted it : > >> F10 : https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/FedoraElectronicLab > >> F8 : https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/FedoraElectronicLab8 > > > > Chitlesh, > > > > The Board can't meet today (too many people out of pocket, or busy) but > > I'm collecting approval votes for this spin, and the BrOffice.org spin, > > via email. I should be able to let folks know via email and this list > > very shortly. > > > > Has there been any progress on approving these spin so far? I took votes via email, and the Board has approved the FEL spin. I'll send a response to the other thread for the BrOffice.org spin. Apologies for the tardiness. -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Thu Aug 28 14:44:08 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 08:44:08 -0600 Subject: Request for Trademark Approval (BrOffice.org Spin) In-Reply-To: <1218655309.3288.41.camel@amd5600> References: <1218655309.3288.41.camel@amd5600> Message-ID: <1219934648.5514.31.camel@victoria> On Wed, 2008-08-13 at 16:21 -0300, Igor Pires Soares wrote: > Hello! > > As one of the steps to get the BrOffice.org Spin approved for Fedora 10 > this request will clarify some points about the spin concept, also > described in the Spin Feature Page [1]. > > BrOffice.org Spin is intended to provide a Brazilian Portuguese > localized LiveCD in order to offer to the users a nice and consistent > option to get BrOffice.org in Fedora. > > BrOffice.org is the Brazilian official brand and NGO for OpenOffice.org. > There is already a company named OpenOffice in Brazil so they had to > change the name. > > This spin is based on fedora-livecd-desktop.ks from Kickstart Pool and > follows the guidelines of the Spin SIG as approved by them [2]. We do > not use any external package neither change the original behavior of > applications. Everything is in Fedora Rawhide repositories and I'm > building it weekly to see how it goes. > > You can have access to the Kickstart file here: > http://igor.fedorapeople.org/BrOffice.orgSpin/fedora-livecd-broffice.org.ks > > All the observations made so far by the Spin SIG were committed to the > kickstart file. > > [1]https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/BrOffice.orgSpin > [2]http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/fedora-spins/2008-August/000062.html This was approved by the Board via an email vote. Apologies for the delay, and thank you, Igor! -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From bkearney at redhat.com Thu Aug 28 18:41:45 2008 From: bkearney at redhat.com (Bryan Kearney) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 14:41:45 -0400 Subject: Request for Trademark Approval (Fedora AOS Spin) Message-ID: <48B6F169.7070809@redhat.com> We would like to request trademark approval for an Appliance Operating Spin which would be part of the approved appliance tools feature [1]. The kickstart file can be seen in this commit [2]. -- bk [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/ApplianceTools [2] http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=spin-kickstarts.git;a=commitdiff;h=e25600d498e74adb03b64d2a1bc20683c33f5df4 From notting at redhat.com Thu Aug 28 20:18:43 2008 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 16:18:43 -0400 Subject: Request for Trademark Approval (Fedora AOS Spin) In-Reply-To: <48B6F169.7070809@redhat.com> References: <48B6F169.7070809@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20080828201843.GA8060@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Bryan Kearney (bkearney at redhat.com) said: > We would like to request trademark approval for an Appliance Operating > Spin which would be part of the approved appliance tools feature [1]. > The kickstart file can be seen in this commit [2]. > > -- bk > > [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/ApplianceTools > [2] > http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=spin-kickstarts.git;a=commitdiff;h=e25600d498e74adb03b64d2a1bc20683c33f5df4 Why does it disable SELinux? Also, won't you actually need mkinitrd at some point? Bill From bkearney at redhat.com Thu Aug 28 20:21:55 2008 From: bkearney at redhat.com (Bryan Kearney) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 16:21:55 -0400 Subject: Request for Trademark Approval (Fedora AOS Spin) In-Reply-To: <20080828201843.GA8060@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <48B6F169.7070809@redhat.com> <20080828201843.GA8060@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <48B708E3.6030402@redhat.com> Bill Nottingham wrote: > Bryan Kearney (bkearney at redhat.com) said: >> We would like to request trademark approval for an Appliance Operating >> Spin which would be part of the approved appliance tools feature [1]. >> The kickstart file can be seen in this commit [2]. >> >> -- bk >> >> [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/ApplianceTools >> [2] >> http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=spin-kickstarts.git;a=commitdiff;h=e25600d498e74adb03b64d2a1bc20683c33f5df4 > > Why does it disable SELinux? Current issues with the building tool and SElinux. Also, won't you actually need mkinitrd > at some point? The tool does this at image creation. Although, I believe it ends up in the image anyways. -- bk From katzj at redhat.com Thu Aug 28 20:45:59 2008 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 16:45:59 -0400 Subject: Request for Trademark Approval (Fedora AOS Spin) In-Reply-To: <48B708E3.6030402@redhat.com> References: <48B6F169.7070809@redhat.com> <20080828201843.GA8060@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <48B708E3.6030402@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1219956359.15746.84.camel@aglarond.local> On Thu, 2008-08-28 at 16:21 -0400, Bryan Kearney wrote: > Bill Nottingham wrote: > > Bryan Kearney (bkearney at redhat.com) said: > >> We would like to request trademark approval for an Appliance Operating > >> Spin which would be part of the approved appliance tools feature [1]. > >> The kickstart file can be seen in this commit [2]. > >> > >> [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/ApplianceTools > >> [2] > >> http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=spin-kickstarts.git;a=commitdiff;h=e25600d498e74adb03b64d2a1bc20683c33f5df4 > > > > Why does it disable SELinux? > > Current issues with the building tool and SElinux. AFAIK, things should be fine as long as 1) The packages you're installing are f9-updates or later 2) The host kernel when you're building images is 2.6.26 I don't think that a spin shipped without SELinux is really something that we want to call Fedora IMHO. Note that this also means you need to not exclude the SELinux tools in your manifest > Also, won't you actually need mkinitrd > > at some point? > > The tool does this at image creation. Although, I believe it ends up in > the image anyways. Given that the kernel requires mkinitrd, yes. Jeremy From matt at domsch.com Thu Aug 28 20:56:27 2008 From: matt at domsch.com (Matt Domsch) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 15:56:27 -0500 Subject: Request for Trademark Approval (Fedora AOS Spin) In-Reply-To: <1219956359.15746.84.camel@aglarond.local> References: <48B6F169.7070809@redhat.com> <20080828201843.GA8060@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <48B708E3.6030402@redhat.com> <1219956359.15746.84.camel@aglarond.local> Message-ID: <20080828205627.GA1217@domsch.com> On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 04:45:59PM -0400, Jeremy Katz wrote: > > I don't think that a spin shipped without SELinux is really something > that we want to call Fedora IMHO. So far the trademark guidelines haven't had a use case where we required a package or a feature. While I want to see SELinux retained in the main Fedora release, there may well be a good reason for a Fedora spin or derivative to not include it. Perhaps Spins need specific features retained; are Spins merely different package sets? Fedora derivatives are certainly more than just different package sets. -Matt From jkeating at redhat.com Thu Aug 28 20:58:47 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 13:58:47 -0700 Subject: Request for Trademark Approval (Fedora AOS Spin) In-Reply-To: <20080828205627.GA1217@domsch.com> References: <48B6F169.7070809@redhat.com> <20080828201843.GA8060@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <48B708E3.6030402@redhat.com> <1219956359.15746.84.camel@aglarond.local> <20080828205627.GA1217@domsch.com> Message-ID: <1219957127.6655.29.camel@luminos.localdomain> On Thu, 2008-08-28 at 15:56 -0500, Matt Domsch wrote: > > So far the trademark guidelines haven't had a use case where we > required a package or a feature. While I want to see SELinux retained > in the main Fedora release, there may well be a good reason for a > Fedora spin or derivative to not include it. > > Perhaps Spins need specific features retained; are Spins merely > different package sets? > > Fedora derivatives are certainly more than just different package > sets. This echos back to a conversation I had during the core/extras merge meetings, the idea of a Fedora Standard Base. That is, a basic set of things you must have in your "spin" in order to call it Fedora. These include things like rpm, yum, and SELinux (at least in my opinion), but we never really coded this up nor hashed out what should be in the FSB, or if FSB was even a good name for the concept. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Aug 28 21:28:23 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 13:28:23 -0800 Subject: Request for Trademark Approval (Fedora AOS Spin) In-Reply-To: <1219957127.6655.29.camel@luminos.localdomain> References: <48B6F169.7070809@redhat.com> <20080828201843.GA8060@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <48B708E3.6030402@redhat.com> <1219956359.15746.84.camel@aglarond.local> <20080828205627.GA1217@domsch.com> <1219957127.6655.29.camel@luminos.localdomain> Message-ID: <604aa7910808281428m3ae1d5dxe110e81d5ed6c61a@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 12:58 PM, Jesse Keating wrote: > This echos back to a conversation I had during the core/extras merge > meetings, the idea of a Fedora Standard Base. That is, a basic set of > things you must have in your "spin" in order to call it Fedora. These > include things like rpm, yum, and SELinux (at least in my opinion), but > we never really coded this up nor hashed out what should be in the FSB, > or if FSB was even a good name for the concept. None of these sort of technical or quality arguments with regard to how a set of Fedora packages maybe chosen to make up a Spin are accounted for in the new trademark policy as drafted. The new trademark policy is much more liberal than this, and in fact I doubt that the Board would be required to approve trademark usage of the AOS concept as it stands is if the new trademark policy was in effect at this very moment. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Pfrields/NewTrademarkGuidelines#Pure_Fedora_spins If we are serious about adopting the New Trademark Guidelines at some point, then I think its appropriate to view the current trademark approvals that come up in the light of that trademark policy draft. And under that rules laid that in that draft.. I don't see anything blocking use of the trademark. If selinux support can be stripped out using nothing but pure Fedora software...that is not a blocker on the trademark approval. If you want it to be a blocker, then you need to punch Paul in the head about changing the new trademark policy draft to account for that... before we put them in place. Now a technical or quality bar such as the FSB concept may be appropriate as a technical hurdle to get into to the kickstart pool and other potential central project services which could be layered on top of the kickstart pool like composing and hosting. -jef From stickster at gmail.com Thu Aug 28 22:25:49 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 16:25:49 -0600 Subject: Request for Trademark Approval (Fedora AOS Spin) In-Reply-To: <604aa7910808281428m3ae1d5dxe110e81d5ed6c61a@mail.gmail.com> References: <48B6F169.7070809@redhat.com> <20080828201843.GA8060@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <48B708E3.6030402@redhat.com> <1219956359.15746.84.camel@aglarond.local> <20080828205627.GA1217@domsch.com> <1219957127.6655.29.camel@luminos.localdomain> <604aa7910808281428m3ae1d5dxe110e81d5ed6c61a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1219962349.4752.1.camel@victoria> On Thu, 2008-08-28 at 13:28 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 12:58 PM, Jesse Keating wrote: > > This echos back to a conversation I had during the core/extras merge > > meetings, the idea of a Fedora Standard Base. That is, a basic set of > > things you must have in your "spin" in order to call it Fedora. These > > include things like rpm, yum, and SELinux (at least in my opinion), but > > we never really coded this up nor hashed out what should be in the FSB, > > or if FSB was even a good name for the concept. > > None of these sort of technical or quality arguments with regard to > how a set of Fedora packages maybe chosen to make up a Spin are > accounted for in the new trademark policy as drafted. The new > trademark policy is much more liberal than this, and in fact I doubt > that the Board would be required to approve trademark usage of the AOS > concept as it stands is if the new trademark policy was in effect at > this very moment. > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Pfrields/NewTrademarkGuidelines#Pure_Fedora_spins > > If we are serious about adopting the New Trademark Guidelines at some > point, then I think its appropriate to view the current trademark > approvals that come up in the light of that trademark policy draft. > And under that rules laid that in that draft.. I don't see anything > blocking use of the trademark. If selinux support can be stripped out > using nothing but pure Fedora software...that is not a blocker on the > trademark approval. If you want it to be a blocker, then you need to > punch Paul in the head about changing the new trademark policy draft > to account for that... before we put them in place. Might I suggest, as an alternative to punching me in the head, actually *commenting on the draft* as I have repeatedly requested? ;-) > Now a technical or quality bar such as the FSB concept may be > appropriate as a technical hurdle to get into to the kickstart pool > and other potential central project services which could be layered on > top of the kickstart pool like composing and hosting. -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jkeating at redhat.com Thu Aug 28 22:35:16 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 15:35:16 -0700 Subject: Request for Trademark Approval (Fedora AOS Spin) In-Reply-To: <1219962349.4752.1.camel@victoria> References: <48B6F169.7070809@redhat.com> <20080828201843.GA8060@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <48B708E3.6030402@redhat.com> <1219956359.15746.84.camel@aglarond.local> <20080828205627.GA1217@domsch.com> <1219957127.6655.29.camel@luminos.localdomain> <604aa7910808281428m3ae1d5dxe110e81d5ed6c61a@mail.gmail.com> <1219962349.4752.1.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <1219962916.6655.38.camel@luminos.localdomain> On Thu, 2008-08-28 at 16:25 -0600, Paul W. Frields wrote: > Might I suggest, as an alternative to punching me in the head, actually > *commenting on the draft* as I have repeatedly requested? ;-) Well this sort of thing slipped my mind. But I would prefer if we had some basic level of packages we considered essential to having something called 'Fedora'. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Aug 28 23:01:25 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 15:01:25 -0800 Subject: Request for Trademark Approval (Fedora AOS Spin) In-Reply-To: <1219962349.4752.1.camel@victoria> References: <48B6F169.7070809@redhat.com> <20080828201843.GA8060@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <48B708E3.6030402@redhat.com> <1219956359.15746.84.camel@aglarond.local> <20080828205627.GA1217@domsch.com> <1219957127.6655.29.camel@luminos.localdomain> <604aa7910808281428m3ae1d5dxe110e81d5ed6c61a@mail.gmail.com> <1219962349.4752.1.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <604aa7910808281601p696a52fayf6d5c07ed663285d@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 2:25 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > Might I suggest, as an alternative to punching me in the head, actually > *commenting on the draft* as I have repeatedly requested? ;-) Honestly, if we aren't going to be comfortable with people turning off certain "features" in a spin by default and removing some packages in a way that does not break package dependency chains in the resultng spin, then I doubt we are going to be comfortable with any other material change in trademark policy that makes it easier for people to use the marks. How is what the AOS people want to do as a spin.. any different than how we would expect as a best case scenario for people selling pre-configured Fedora branded systems to handle user customization? We aren't even dealing with a more complicated situation where there is a post install script mucking with the system configs at the end of the kickstart file. Are we going to tell the guy across town from me that he's not allowed to sell pre-configured Fedora systems with selinux disabled and associated selinux tools removed...even if I as a customer request him to do it for me? All the AOS image is is a pre-cooked configuration that our packaging configuration allows...no different than what I could get from the guy across town..except for the cost of having him do it for me...and the fact that the AOS guys probably have a better idea of what they are doing. If we are going to make some packages mandatory...then well..we should make it mandatory though package requirements and not let anyone remove those features post-install. Make every single one of our users deal with that requirement, instead of making this sort a thing a blocker on trademark use. -jef From bugs.michael at gmx.net Thu Aug 28 23:03:17 2008 From: bugs.michael at gmx.net (Michael Schwendt) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 01:03:17 +0200 Subject: bug triage considered useful? In-Reply-To: <1210952720.3681.107.camel@calliope.phig.org> References: <1210777672.26792.1056.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <20080514153653.GA19222@domsch.com> <604aa7910805140917y776da750pb8fed4af0632fc4b@mail.gmail.com> <1210783366.3170.128.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910805140959v646da135x10e977baf43b7f58@mail.gmail.com> <1210952720.3681.107.camel@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <20080829010317.4fda1543.bugs.michael@gmx.net> There are ongoing issues with the bug-triaging workflow. I can observe how triagers (or arbitrary bugzilla users with the appropriate privileges) set tickets from NEW to ASSIGNED only for the assignee to switch back to NEW. My bet is that hardly any package maintainer is aware of the triaging procedure. From jkeating at redhat.com Thu Aug 28 23:22:21 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 16:22:21 -0700 Subject: bug triage considered useful? In-Reply-To: <20080829010317.4fda1543.bugs.michael@gmx.net> References: <1210777672.26792.1056.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <20080514153653.GA19222@domsch.com> <604aa7910805140917y776da750pb8fed4af0632fc4b@mail.gmail.com> <1210783366.3170.128.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910805140959v646da135x10e977baf43b7f58@mail.gmail.com> <1210952720.3681.107.camel@calliope.phig.org> <20080829010317.4fda1543.bugs.michael@gmx.net> Message-ID: <1219965741.6655.39.camel@luminos.localdomain> On Fri, 2008-08-29 at 01:03 +0200, Michael Schwendt wrote: > I can observe how triagers (or arbitrary bugzilla users with the > appropriate privileges) set tickets from NEW to ASSIGNED only for > the assignee to switch back to NEW. My bet is that hardly any > package maintainer is aware of the triaging procedure. Or they're aware and just simply disagree with it. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kanarip at kanarip.com Fri Aug 29 00:09:37 2008 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 02:09:37 +0200 Subject: Request for Trademark Approval (Fedora AOS Spin) In-Reply-To: <604aa7910808281601p696a52fayf6d5c07ed663285d@mail.gmail.com> References: <48B6F169.7070809@redhat.com> <20080828201843.GA8060@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <48B708E3.6030402@redhat.com> <1219956359.15746.84.camel@aglarond.local> <20080828205627.GA1217@domsch.com> <1219957127.6655.29.camel@luminos.localdomain> <604aa7910808281428m3ae1d5dxe110e81d5ed6c61a@mail.gmail.com> <1219962349.4752.1.camel@victoria> <604aa7910808281601p696a52fayf6d5c07ed663285d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48B73E41.7000109@kanarip.com> A little clarification on the disabling of SELinux and so forth; the maximum an AOS can do to form a viable basis for all kinds of weird appliance stuff to be built upon is to set SELinux to permissive. You won't see many appliances out there actually having SELinux enforcing (or actually having SELinux at all). It'll most likely not be very sustainable for appliance builders to move their work into something that can cope with the SELinux culprit. This is a side-note as to why it is not unreasonable to disable SELinux on this particular spin. On the other hand, of course we do have an agenda to push and that agenda includes SELinux as being one of the core features of the entire Fedora line of products (including the few enterprise linux spin-offs). It's one of the main features and we would rather see appliances built upon an AOS that has SELinux enforcing by default while it can still be disabled. Whether we consider SELinux to be a main feature that has to be included (enforcing) on every spin impacts our ability to really do the customization that we find important, too. I'm thinking that a security / forensics spin (extended rescue environment on live media) will not want to have SELinux do anything either (especially not restorecon), and will maybe have to set it to permissive. Kind regards, Jeroen van Meeuwen -kanarip From kanarip at kanarip.com Fri Aug 29 00:11:32 2008 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 02:11:32 +0200 Subject: Request for Trademark Approval (Fedora AOS Spin) In-Reply-To: <48B708E3.6030402@redhat.com> References: <48B6F169.7070809@redhat.com> <20080828201843.GA8060@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <48B708E3.6030402@redhat.com> Message-ID: <48B73EB4.402@kanarip.com> Bryan Kearney wrote: > Bill Nottingham wrote: >> Why does it disable SELinux? > > Current issues with the building tool and SElinux. > I think we've also addressed this on the Spin SIG mailing list before... the problem wasn't the composing necessarily since it could be composed if the hosts' SELinux had been set to permissive. > Also, won't you actually need mkinitrd >> at some point? > > The tool does this at image creation. Although, I believe it ends up in > the image anyways. > So the removal of mkinitrd in the package manifest can go away, then. Kind regards, Jeroen van Meeuwen -kanarip From kwade at redhat.com Fri Aug 29 03:18:03 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 20:18:03 -0700 Subject: Request for Trademark Approval (Fedora AOS Spin) In-Reply-To: <1219962916.6655.38.camel@luminos.localdomain> References: <48B6F169.7070809@redhat.com> <20080828201843.GA8060@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <48B708E3.6030402@redhat.com> <1219956359.15746.84.camel@aglarond.local> <20080828205627.GA1217@domsch.com> <1219957127.6655.29.camel@luminos.localdomain> <604aa7910808281428m3ae1d5dxe110e81d5ed6c61a@mail.gmail.com> <1219962349.4752.1.camel@victoria> <1219962916.6655.38.camel@luminos.localdomain> Message-ID: <1219979883.4924.419.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Thu, 2008-08-28 at 15:35 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Thu, 2008-08-28 at 16:25 -0600, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > Might I suggest, as an alternative to punching me in the head, actually > > *commenting on the draft* as I have repeatedly requested? ;-) > > Well this sort of thing slipped my mind. But I would prefer if we had > some basic level of packages we considered essential to having something > called 'Fedora'. This is a good point. I can imagine a number of practices that we would not want to put under the Fedora name, such as turning off all security or maybe using a different package manager than yum. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Sr. Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Fri Aug 29 03:34:28 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 20:34:28 -0700 Subject: Request for Trademark Approval (Fedora AOS Spin) In-Reply-To: <48B73E41.7000109@kanarip.com> References: <48B6F169.7070809@redhat.com> <20080828201843.GA8060@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <48B708E3.6030402@redhat.com> <1219956359.15746.84.camel@aglarond.local> <20080828205627.GA1217@domsch.com> <1219957127.6655.29.camel@luminos.localdomain> <604aa7910808281428m3ae1d5dxe110e81d5ed6c61a@mail.gmail.com> <1219962349.4752.1.camel@victoria> <604aa7910808281601p696a52fayf6d5c07ed663285d@mail.gmail.com> <48B73E41.7000109@kanarip.com> Message-ID: <1219980868.4924.430.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Fri, 2008-08-29 at 02:09 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > A little clarification on the disabling of SELinux and so forth; > > the maximum an AOS can do to form a viable basis for all kinds of weird > appliance stuff to be built upon is to set SELinux to permissive. You > won't see many appliances out there actually having SELinux enforcing > (or actually having SELinux at all). Why is that? Not perhaps because the first thing they do is turn SELinux off and don't bother trying to get their application to run under a custom policy? > It'll most likely not be very > sustainable for appliance builders to move their work into something > that can cope with the SELinux culprit. This is a side-note as to why it > is not unreasonable to disable SELinux on this particular spin. I don't understand why they cannot write policy for their own application? Even if it's a hacky audit2allow-created policy. The reasons are two-fold: * A system running under SELinux with a hacky policy is much more secure while still allowing the application to do whatever it wants; the developers don't have to fix their methods to be more secure; and the app is no worse off than without SELinux while the system is better. * If they do not get the kickstart with SELinux enabled, how are they ever going to try and know if it needs custom policy? In the last case, they actually get a chance to improve the security in their application. > On the other hand, of course we do have an agenda to push and that > agenda includes SELinux as being one of the core features of the entire > Fedora line of products (including the few enterprise linux spin-offs). > It's one of the main features and we would rather see appliances built > upon an AOS that has SELinux enforcing by default while it can still be > disabled. > > Whether we consider SELinux to be a main feature that has to be included > (enforcing) on every spin impacts our ability to really do the > customization that we find important, too. I'm thinking that a security > / forensics spin (extended rescue environment on live media) will not > want to have SELinux do anything either (especially not restorecon), and > will maybe have to set it to permissive. What about just not installing policycoreutils? I don't think SELinux requires it, and of course it can be installed later. I think that is in fact one of the reasons for having the coreutils for policy writing in a separate package, because the system should be able to run SELinux without potentially dangerous policy generation tools being available. (The policy written on a safe machine then deployed to the locked environment.) I'm just saying ... I would consider it _very_ seriously and for a _long_ time before we removed SELinux from the must-have list. IMHO et al. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Sr. Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Fri Aug 29 03:57:43 2008 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (Seth Vidal) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 23:57:43 -0400 Subject: Request for Trademark Approval (Fedora AOS Spin) In-Reply-To: <1219979883.4924.419.camel@calliope.phig.org> References: <48B6F169.7070809@redhat.com> <20080828201843.GA8060@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <48B708E3.6030402@redhat.com> <1219956359.15746.84.camel@aglarond.local> <20080828205627.GA1217@domsch.com> <1219957127.6655.29.camel@luminos.localdomain> <604aa7910808281428m3ae1d5dxe110e81d5ed6c61a@mail.gmail.com> <1219962349.4752.1.camel@victoria> <1219962916.6655.38.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1219979883.4924.419.camel@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <1219982263.12096.172.camel@rosebud> On Thu, 2008-08-28 at 20:18 -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > On Thu, 2008-08-28 at 15:35 -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > > On Thu, 2008-08-28 at 16:25 -0600, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > > Might I suggest, as an alternative to punching me in the head, actually > > > *commenting on the draft* as I have repeatedly requested? ;-) > > > > Well this sort of thing slipped my mind. But I would prefer if we had > > some basic level of packages we considered essential to having something > > called 'Fedora'. > > This is a good point. I can imagine a number of practices that we would > not want to put under the Fedora name, such as turning off all security > or maybe using a different package manager than yum. I don't really see how either matters, really. If they turn off all security and make 'honey pot linux - based on fedora' as a livecd for catching would-be crackers, I have no problem with that. It would be a good thing to have fedora's name on, I think. If they put apt in place (and modify massive amounts of anaconda, etc, to make it all work) then why not? How does it hurt us? -sv From jkeating at redhat.com Fri Aug 29 04:02:40 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 21:02:40 -0700 Subject: Request for Trademark Approval (Fedora AOS Spin) In-Reply-To: <1219982263.12096.172.camel@rosebud> References: <48B6F169.7070809@redhat.com> <20080828201843.GA8060@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <48B708E3.6030402@redhat.com> <1219956359.15746.84.camel@aglarond.local> <20080828205627.GA1217@domsch.com> <1219957127.6655.29.camel@luminos.localdomain> <604aa7910808281428m3ae1d5dxe110e81d5ed6c61a@mail.gmail.com> <1219962349.4752.1.camel@victoria> <1219962916.6655.38.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1219979883.4924.419.camel@calliope.phig.org> <1219982263.12096.172.camel@rosebud> Message-ID: <1219982560.6655.53.camel@luminos.localdomain> On Thu, 2008-08-28 at 23:57 -0400, Seth Vidal wrote: > > If they turn off all security and make 'honey pot linux - based on > fedora' as a livecd for catching would-be crackers, I have no problem > with that. It would be a good thing to have fedora's name on, I think. > > If they put apt in place (and modify massive amounts of anaconda, etc, > to make it all work) then why not? > > How does it hurt us? You just said the magic words. "Based on Fedora", which is not Fedora. I don't have a problem with people doing crazy ass things like taking out selinux, removing yum, or even replacing the entire runtime with our busybox, and calling it Based on Fedora. It's when they call it Fedora that I get concerned. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net Fri Aug 29 08:56:24 2008 From: Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net (Axel Thimm) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 11:56:24 +0300 Subject: Request for Trademark Approval (Fedora AOS Spin) In-Reply-To: <1219982560.6655.53.camel@luminos.localdomain> References: <48B708E3.6030402@redhat.com> <1219956359.15746.84.camel@aglarond.local> <20080828205627.GA1217@domsch.com> <1219957127.6655.29.camel@luminos.localdomain> <604aa7910808281428m3ae1d5dxe110e81d5ed6c61a@mail.gmail.com> <1219962349.4752.1.camel@victoria> <1219962916.6655.38.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1219979883.4924.419.camel@calliope.phig.org> <1219982263.12096.172.camel@rosebud> <1219982560.6655.53.camel@luminos.localdomain> Message-ID: <20080829085624.GA563@victor.nirvana> On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 09:02:40PM -0700, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Thu, 2008-08-28 at 23:57 -0400, Seth Vidal wrote: > > > > If they turn off all security and make 'honey pot linux - based on > > fedora' as a livecd for catching would-be crackers, I have no problem > > with that. It would be a good thing to have fedora's name on, I think. > > > > If they put apt in place (and modify massive amounts of anaconda, etc, > > to make it all work) then why not? > > > > How does it hurt us? > > You just said the magic words. "Based on Fedora", which is not Fedora. > I don't have a problem with people doing crazy ass things like taking > out selinux, removing yum, or even replacing the entire runtime with our > busybox, and calling it Based on Fedora. It's when they call it Fedora > that I get concerned. I belive that if we think about why we want some derivatives to be called Fedora and why some not, the basic line of thought is that if it improves the brand name by having high quality standards, solving a new problem niche nicely, or in general promotes the use of Fedora in any way then it is in Fedora's interest to allow the use of the trademarked name. Currently I cannot imagine Fedora w/o rpm or yum, but I can imagine it w/o selinux if I think about very small footprints, nano-Fedoras and all the recent suggestion. I wouldn't mind my phone to advertise that it runs on Fedora, even if selinux was turned off (but the high standard of security is ensured in another way). Since we can't envison what nice spins/derivatives people will come up with (I first heard of the appliance spin), we should not statically enforce any requirements, but instead have the board be the checking instance like it is now. A spin may fulfill all the formal requirements we can come up like a minimal base etc and still be worthless compared to the standard official spins (e.g. adding say xemacs to the package pool and calling it the Fedora xemacs spin). Or it may violate some requirement we come up (like selinux), but still be a very nice spin solving the security issues differently - or maybe applied in an environment where some of the requirements don't matter: Consider a Fedora spin for some embedded devices that are not expected to have network access (can't think of many, but say my fridge or my car's injection system), will we deny BMW to call their spin Fedora because they will not have selinux or yum? OR maybe even ripped all of rpm and rpmdb of the final image to shrink it some more? Anyway, what I want to say, is that we can't envision today how far the Fedora spin success will go and setting barriers today that a board in the future will need to tear down again, is maybe counterproductive. After all we do have the people in the board checking whether the spin is good enough to be called Fedora, and if they don't like the absence of selinux on some spin they will not put their stamp on it. -- Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bkearney at redhat.com Fri Aug 29 12:05:45 2008 From: bkearney at redhat.com (Bryan Kearney) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 08:05:45 -0400 Subject: Request for Trademark Approval (Fedora AOS Spin) In-Reply-To: <604aa7910808281601p696a52fayf6d5c07ed663285d@mail.gmail.com> References: <48B6F169.7070809@redhat.com> <20080828201843.GA8060@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <48B708E3.6030402@redhat.com> <1219956359.15746.84.camel@aglarond.local> <20080828205627.GA1217@domsch.com> <1219957127.6655.29.camel@luminos.localdomain> <604aa7910808281428m3ae1d5dxe110e81d5ed6c61a@mail.gmail.com> <1219962349.4752.1.camel@victoria> <604aa7910808281601p696a52fayf6d5c07ed663285d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48B7E619.2000708@redhat.com> Jeff Spaleta wrote: > If we are going to make some packages mandatory...then well..we should > make it mandatory though package requirements and not let anyone > remove those features post-install. Make every single one of our > users deal with that requirement, instead of making this sort a thing > a blocker on trademark use. Glad that we can bring so much fun discussion! For what it is worth, I liked the discussion earlier on which separated out the issue into trademark policy versus kickstart pool. Given the old and new rules, the AOS spin _should_ be allowed to carry the trademark (not the based on mark). However, I can see where the board would not want to promote it into the kickstart pool, since that is a defacto "best practice", and the board may wish to promote SELinux as a best practice. Let me suggest this. Can we put forth 2 ks files, one enabled and one disabled and without the selinux packages (fedora-aos and fedora-aos-selinux)? Since, as Jeremy pointed out, we can enforce with the most recent tools... but as Jeroen and others have pointed out there may be folks who do not want to use selinux to provide security. Thanks! -- bk From kanarip at kanarip.com Fri Aug 29 13:23:17 2008 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 15:23:17 +0200 Subject: Request for Trademark Approval (Fedora AOS Spin) In-Reply-To: <1219982560.6655.53.camel@luminos.localdomain> References: <48B6F169.7070809@redhat.com> <20080828201843.GA8060@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <48B708E3.6030402@redhat.com> <1219956359.15746.84.camel@aglarond.local> <20080828205627.GA1217@domsch.com> <1219957127.6655.29.camel@luminos.localdomain> <604aa7910808281428m3ae1d5dxe110e81d5ed6c61a@mail.gmail.com> <1219962349.4752.1.camel@victoria> <1219962916.6655.38.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1219979883.4924.419.camel@calliope.phig.org> <1219982263.12096.172.camel@rosebud> <1219982560.6655.53.camel@luminos.localdomain> Message-ID: <48B7F845.6040409@kanarip.com> Jesse Keating wrote: > On Thu, 2008-08-28 at 23:57 -0400, Seth Vidal wrote: >> If they turn off all security and make 'honey pot linux - based on >> fedora' as a livecd for catching would-be crackers, I have no problem >> with that. It would be a good thing to have fedora's name on, I think. >> >> If they put apt in place (and modify massive amounts of anaconda, etc, >> to make it all work) then why not? >> >> How does it hurt us? > > You just said the magic words. "Based on Fedora", which is not Fedora. > I don't have a problem with people doing crazy ass things like taking > out selinux, removing yum, or even replacing the entire runtime with our > busybox, and calling it Based on Fedora. It's when they call it Fedora > that I get concerned. > For the sake of argument, and the point I tried to make earlier, let's suppose the next proposed spin is "Fedora Different", purely intended to show the ultimate, most extreme amount of tweaking you can still do /within/ Fedora proper. Suppose the maintainers do the right thing so that when it excludes yum from the system and includes apt, they patch (upstream!) the entire toolchain and whatnot. Would this be acceptable for Trademark approval? If not, I suppose we're on our way to making a must-have and may-not-have/may-not-change feature list including packages and toolchains. If it is, then such a list is moot and we're going the case-by-case route. Kind regards, Jeroen van Meeuwen -kanarip From kanarip at kanarip.com Fri Aug 29 13:27:09 2008 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 15:27:09 +0200 Subject: Trademark Approval and Spin SIG (was: Request for Trademark Approval (Fedora AOS Spin)) In-Reply-To: <20080829085624.GA563@victor.nirvana> References: <48B708E3.6030402@redhat.com> <1219956359.15746.84.camel@aglarond.local> <20080828205627.GA1217@domsch.com> <1219957127.6655.29.camel@luminos.localdomain> <604aa7910808281428m3ae1d5dxe110e81d5ed6c61a@mail.gmail.com> <1219962349.4752.1.camel@victoria> <1219962916.6655.38.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1219979883.4924.419.camel@calliope.phig.org> <1219982263.12096.172.camel@rosebud> <1219982560.6655.53.camel@luminos.localdomain> <20080829085624.GA563@victor.nirvana> Message-ID: <48B7F92D.3020108@kanarip.com> So, in the category of Trademark Approval, Kickstart Pool inclusion and the Spin SIG, here's another thing to ponder; If a spin is not approved for trademark usage (for whatever reason), can it still be in the kickstart pool (rebranded of course)? Futhermore, can we distribute it (in the spin-kickstarts package)? Kind regards, Jeroen van Meeuwen -kanarip From Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net Fri Aug 29 13:45:51 2008 From: Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net (Axel Thimm) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 16:45:51 +0300 Subject: Trademark Approval and Spin SIG (was: Request for Trademark Approval (Fedora AOS Spin)) In-Reply-To: <48B7F92D.3020108@kanarip.com> References: <20080828205627.GA1217@domsch.com> <1219957127.6655.29.camel@luminos.localdomain> <604aa7910808281428m3ae1d5dxe110e81d5ed6c61a@mail.gmail.com> <1219962349.4752.1.camel@victoria> <1219962916.6655.38.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1219979883.4924.419.camel@calliope.phig.org> <1219982263.12096.172.camel@rosebud> <1219982560.6655.53.camel@luminos.localdomain> <20080829085624.GA563@victor.nirvana> <48B7F92D.3020108@kanarip.com> Message-ID: <20080829134551.GB3009@victor.nirvana> On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 03:27:09PM +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > So, in the category of Trademark Approval, Kickstart Pool inclusion and > the Spin SIG, here's another thing to ponder; > > If a spin is not approved for trademark usage (for whatever reason), can > it still be in the kickstart pool (rebranded of course)? Futhermore, can > we distribute it (in the spin-kickstarts package)? If it's not good enough to be called Fedora, it shouldn't be distributed as such either. -- Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Aug 29 13:50:51 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 19:20:51 +0530 Subject: Trademark Approval and Spin SIG In-Reply-To: <48B7F92D.3020108@kanarip.com> References: <48B708E3.6030402@redhat.com> <1219956359.15746.84.camel@aglarond.local> <20080828205627.GA1217@domsch.com> <1219957127.6655.29.camel@luminos.localdomain> <604aa7910808281428m3ae1d5dxe110e81d5ed6c61a@mail.gmail.com> <1219962349.4752.1.camel@victoria> <1219962916.6655.38.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1219979883.4924.419.camel@calliope.phig.org> <1219982263.12096.172.camel@rosebud> <1219982560.6655.53.camel@luminos.localdomain> <20080829085624.GA563@victor.nirvana> <48B7F92D.3020108@kanarip.com> Message-ID: <48B7FEBB.8020608@fedoraproject.org> Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > So, in the category of Trademark Approval, Kickstart Pool inclusion and > the Spin SIG, here's another thing to ponder; > > If a spin is not approved for trademark usage (for whatever reason), can > it still be in the kickstart pool (rebranded of course)? Futhermore, can > we distribute it (in the spin-kickstarts package)? If it is rebranded, why not? It is not a trademark question anymore after that. Rahul From bkearney at redhat.com Fri Aug 29 14:10:02 2008 From: bkearney at redhat.com (Bryan Kearney) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 10:10:02 -0400 Subject: Trademark Approval and Spin SIG In-Reply-To: <48B7FEBB.8020608@fedoraproject.org> References: <48B708E3.6030402@redhat.com> <1219956359.15746.84.camel@aglarond.local> <20080828205627.GA1217@domsch.com> <1219957127.6655.29.camel@luminos.localdomain> <604aa7910808281428m3ae1d5dxe110e81d5ed6c61a@mail.gmail.com> <1219962349.4752.1.camel@victoria> <1219962916.6655.38.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1219979883.4924.419.camel@calliope.phig.org> <1219982263.12096.172.camel@rosebud> <1219982560.6655.53.camel@luminos.localdomain> <20080829085624.GA563@victor.nirvana> <48B7F92D.3020108@kanarip.com> <48B7FEBB.8020608@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <48B8033A.20100@redhat.com> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: >> So, in the category of Trademark Approval, Kickstart Pool inclusion >> and the Spin SIG, here's another thing to ponder; >> >> If a spin is not approved for trademark usage (for whatever reason), >> can it still be in the kickstart pool (rebranded of course)? >> Futhermore, can we distribute it (in the spin-kickstarts package)? > > If it is rebranded, why not? It is not a trademark question anymore > after that. I would assume fedora would only want to distribute things branded fedora. -- bk From bkearney at redhat.com Fri Aug 29 14:17:27 2008 From: bkearney at redhat.com (Bryan Kearney) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 10:17:27 -0400 Subject: Request for Trademark Approval (Fedora AOS Spin) In-Reply-To: <48B7F845.6040409@kanarip.com> References: <48B6F169.7070809@redhat.com> <20080828201843.GA8060@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <48B708E3.6030402@redhat.com> <1219956359.15746.84.camel@aglarond.local> <20080828205627.GA1217@domsch.com> <1219957127.6655.29.camel@luminos.localdomain> <604aa7910808281428m3ae1d5dxe110e81d5ed6c61a@mail.gmail.com> <1219962349.4752.1.camel@victoria> <1219962916.6655.38.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1219979883.4924.419.camel@calliope.phig.org> <1219982263.12096.172.camel@rosebud> <1219982560.6655.53.camel@luminos.localdomain> <48B7F845.6040409@kanarip.com> Message-ID: <48B804F7.4000103@redhat.com> Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > Jesse Keating wrote: >> On Thu, 2008-08-28 at 23:57 -0400, Seth Vidal wrote: So.. back to the original request, and proposed follow up suggestion [1]. Are folks comfortable with the follow up? It seems to provide the best of both worlds for F10,and allows for some time to debate it since we have to re-apply for F11. -- bk [1] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2008-August/msg00112.html From kanarip at kanarip.com Fri Aug 29 14:26:01 2008 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 16:26:01 +0200 Subject: Trademark Approval and Spin SIG In-Reply-To: <20080829134551.GB3009@victor.nirvana> References: <20080828205627.GA1217@domsch.com> <1219957127.6655.29.camel@luminos.localdomain> <604aa7910808281428m3ae1d5dxe110e81d5ed6c61a@mail.gmail.com> <1219962349.4752.1.camel@victoria> <1219962916.6655.38.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1219979883.4924.419.camel@calliope.phig.org> <1219982263.12096.172.camel@rosebud> <1219982560.6655.53.camel@luminos.localdomain> <20080829085624.GA563@victor.nirvana> <48B7F92D.3020108@kanarip.com> <20080829134551.GB3009@victor.nirvana> Message-ID: <48B806F9.9050305@kanarip.com> Axel Thimm wrote: > On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 03:27:09PM +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: >> So, in the category of Trademark Approval, Kickstart Pool inclusion and >> the Spin SIG, here's another thing to ponder; >> >> If a spin is not approved for trademark usage (for whatever reason), can >> it still be in the kickstart pool (rebranded of course)? Futhermore, can >> we distribute it (in the spin-kickstarts package)? > > If it's not good enough to be called Fedora, it shouldn't be > distributed as such either. > We're past that point however, since this relates to distributing (and storing in the Pool) of kickstart files that are technically OK, but create spins not approved for trademark usage for whatever reason, and hence will remain being rebranded or debranded. Kind regards, Jeroen van Meeuwen -kanarip From Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net Fri Aug 29 14:30:34 2008 From: Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net (Axel Thimm) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 17:30:34 +0300 Subject: Trademark Approval and Spin SIG In-Reply-To: <48B806F9.9050305@kanarip.com> References: <604aa7910808281428m3ae1d5dxe110e81d5ed6c61a@mail.gmail.com> <1219962349.4752.1.camel@victoria> <1219962916.6655.38.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1219979883.4924.419.camel@calliope.phig.org> <1219982263.12096.172.camel@rosebud> <1219982560.6655.53.camel@luminos.localdomain> <20080829085624.GA563@victor.nirvana> <48B7F92D.3020108@kanarip.com> <20080829134551.GB3009@victor.nirvana> <48B806F9.9050305@kanarip.com> Message-ID: <20080829143034.GA7711@victor.nirvana> On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 04:26:01PM +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > Axel Thimm wrote: >> On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 03:27:09PM +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: >>> So, in the category of Trademark Approval, Kickstart Pool inclusion >>> and the Spin SIG, here's another thing to ponder; >>> >>> If a spin is not approved for trademark usage (for whatever reason), >>> can it still be in the kickstart pool (rebranded of course)? >>> Futhermore, can we distribute it (in the spin-kickstarts package)? >> >> If it's not good enough to be called Fedora, it shouldn't be >> distributed as such either. >> > > We're past that point however, since this relates to distributing (and > storing in the Pool) of kickstart files that are technically OK, but > create spins not approved for trademark usage for whatever reason, and > hence will remain being rebranded or debranded. Hm, was that the indended result? I for one would assume w/o further wuationing, that if a spin kickstart file is distributed onto my system, that the spin in question is APPROVED. Maybe the pool should be split into "official" and "contib" parts to make it clear which spins are the one that passed the fab's filter and which not? -- Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Aug 29 20:53:45 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 12:53:45 -0800 Subject: Trademark Approval and Spin SIG (was: Request for Trademark Approval (Fedora AOS Spin)) In-Reply-To: <48B7F92D.3020108@kanarip.com> References: <48B708E3.6030402@redhat.com> <1219957127.6655.29.camel@luminos.localdomain> <604aa7910808281428m3ae1d5dxe110e81d5ed6c61a@mail.gmail.com> <1219962349.4752.1.camel@victoria> <1219962916.6655.38.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1219979883.4924.419.camel@calliope.phig.org> <1219982263.12096.172.camel@rosebud> <1219982560.6655.53.camel@luminos.localdomain> <20080829085624.GA563@victor.nirvana> <48B7F92D.3020108@kanarip.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910808291353j3d3b53cvd292963a1fdaeb62@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 5:27 AM, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > If a spin is not approved for trademark usage (for whatever reason), can it > still be in the kickstart pool (rebranded of course)? Futhermore, can we > distribute it (in the spin-kickstarts package)? I would say that under the current structure where trademark approval comes after the Spin SIG technical assessemnt, yes... this sort of organization of the kickstart pool is a legitimate choice that the Spin SIG could make. Under the current workflow, there are essentially 3 different technical levels. 1) Spin SIG best practices to get into kickstart pool 2) Technical issues which are associated with trademark approval 3) Technical requirements for RelEng for 'release' of a spin. These can be layered technical hurdles, which the kickstart pool could be structured to mimic. I would however suggest making a deliberate effort to distribute kickstart files in such a way that trademark approved kickstarts were not easily confused with non-trademark approved contrib kickstarts. Separate srpms/rpms for each sub-collection of the pool would make sense to me personally. Now you maybe holding back on such a structuring of the kickstart pool because of the new trademark policy draft would essentially make the 2) in that list disappear, thus making a need to structure the kickstart pool very unnecessary. But if I were you, I wouldn't wait for the trademark policy process to be done. We've got no affirmative date by which to bring this to a vote at the Board level..unless I missed something. If this interests you go ahead and get the Spin SIG to decide on the approved/contrib split in the kick start pool or not regardless of what the trademark policy re-write decision is. There's always been a simmering interest in Fedora on small footprint hardware..and people have been sort of playing around on how to deal with that. Maybe a contrib kickstart area would help people in our community organize compelling usage case arguments and act as a centralized basis for work towards official project support of nowe usage cases down the road. -jef"If I take my laptop to a public event, and have selinux tools removed..can I still call it Fedora when I show it to people?"spaleta From Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net Sat Aug 30 18:46:58 2008 From: Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net (Axel Thimm) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2008 21:46:58 +0300 Subject: One person - several FAS accounts? (was: bodhi abuse?) In-Reply-To: <20080830170124.ca4b360e.bugs.michael@gmx.net> References: <20080830131505.9a8258ca.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <20080830170124.ca4b360e.bugs.michael@gmx.net> Message-ID: <20080830184658.GA25578@victor.nirvana> On Sat, Aug 30, 2008 at 05:01:24PM +0200, Michael Schwendt wrote: > Secondly, in my opinion, it is not okay that one person opens multiple > Fedora accounts. > [...] > In case there are no rules yet, it's about time to create some. I agree with Michael about 10^10%. FAS accounts should be only one for each user. If there are needs for having several accounts for one person, these needs should be explained and either the FAS system extended to cover these cases, or special cased by whatever entity (fesco, fab, Fedora infra team?) is authoritative. Isn't there perhaps already some texting that one needs to click through that has the user sign that he will use only that account? Otherwise could someone add this? Besides bodhi fake voting this can even be used for fab/fesco fake voting (although it is probably harder to mark several same-person-accounts as packager accounts w/o anyone noticing it)! -- Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bugs.michael at gmx.net Sat Aug 30 22:57:04 2008 From: bugs.michael at gmx.net (Michael Schwendt) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2008 00:57:04 +0200 Subject: One person - several FAS accounts? (was: bodhi abuse?) In-Reply-To: <20080830184658.GA25578@victor.nirvana> References: <20080830131505.9a8258ca.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <20080830170124.ca4b360e.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <20080830184658.GA25578@victor.nirvana> Message-ID: <20080831005704.a9bd7815.bugs.michael@gmx.net> On Sat, 30 Aug 2008 21:46:58 +0300, Axel Thimm wrote: > I agree with Michael about 10^10%. > > FAS accounts should be only one for each user. If there are needs for > having several accounts for one person, these needs should be > explained and either the FAS system extended to cover these cases, or > special cased by whatever entity (fesco, fab, Fedora infra team?) is > authoritative. > > Isn't there perhaps already some texting that one needs to click > through that has the user sign that he will use only that account? > Otherwise could someone add this? > > Besides bodhi fake voting this can even be used for fab/fesco fake > voting (although it is probably harder to mark several > same-person-accounts as packager accounts w/o anyone noticing it)! Just for the record and because my original post went to fedora-buildsys-list. I've stumbled into suspicious voting activity in bodhi, such as: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/PackageKit-0.2.4-6.fc9 (pending) +1 acottle - 2008-08-27 22:24:21 +1 auscity - 2008-08-27 22:24:46 +1 dcottle - 2008-08-27 22:25:11 There are more like that from those users. They have several things in common. Never any comment except for sporadic words (or discussion with other voters) from dcottle. Just the +1. Usually at least two of these accounts vote in bodhi at the same time (i.e. with a delay of approx. 20 seconds like above) and always on the same updates for both F9 and F8. It is often voted on pending updates, where downloading from koji is necessary. You can learn in one of dcottle's comments to a kernel update, where users use bodhi to chat a bit, that his daily routine is to look for new builds "in koji" in the morning hours. And yet it's three accounts that vote at the same time on the same updates. Of course, I'm paranoid. ;) Of course, this is not the same person behind those accounts. One can imagine how they sit next to eachother and practise voting in bodhi at the same time several days a week for every update they try. :) So, ... FAS confirmed that users dcottle and auscity are the same person (actually with the email addresses swapped to make the connection even more obvious), and acottle shares the surname *and* the domain name in the email address. After I had mailed the three users and the list, I've received four angry replies from the person trying to explain that the multiple votes are done because the updates are tested on several machines. About an hour ago I've received a rude reply that mentioned the obvious possibility (or is it a threat of what to expect next?) of "registering countless hotmail, yahoo or free accounts and commenting all day long" and a pool of 64 IP addresses in order to conceal the activity in bodhi. It's great that dcottle (David Cottle) has been such an active update tester, who's listed somewhere near the top of bodhi's new metrics. Yet, spending +3 karma points instead of just one should not be done with three accounts. Superhero testers (especially those who really test hardware-dependent updates on lots of different hardware) could gain extra privileges in bodhi or be marked as VIPs in the future. I'm sure something can be done to reward them for their contribution and to aid package maintainers in deciding what level of testing an update has seen. However, all I see so far is an attempt at raising karma in bodhi in the hope that the updates will be pushed to stable sooner. And that is foul play IMO. From stickster at gmail.com Sun Aug 31 01:21:42 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2008 19:21:42 -0600 Subject: Trademark Approval and Spin SIG In-Reply-To: <48B8033A.20100@redhat.com> References: <48B708E3.6030402@redhat.com> <1219956359.15746.84.camel@aglarond.local> <20080828205627.GA1217@domsch.com> <1219957127.6655.29.camel@luminos.localdomain> <604aa7910808281428m3ae1d5dxe110e81d5ed6c61a@mail.gmail.com> <1219962349.4752.1.camel@victoria> <1219962916.6655.38.camel@luminos.localdomain> <1219979883.4924.419.camel@calliope.phig.org> <1219982263.12096.172.camel@rosebud> <1219982560.6655.53.camel@luminos.localdomain> <20080829085624.GA563@victor.nirvana> <48B7F92D.3020108@kanarip.com> <48B7FEBB.8020608@fedoraproject.org> <48B8033A.20100@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1220145702.11205.8.camel@victoria> On Fri, 2008-08-29 at 10:10 -0400, Bryan Kearney wrote: > Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > >> So, in the category of Trademark Approval, Kickstart Pool inclusion > >> and the Spin SIG, here's another thing to ponder; > >> > >> If a spin is not approved for trademark usage (for whatever reason), > >> can it still be in the kickstart pool (rebranded of course)? > >> Futhermore, can we distribute it (in the spin-kickstarts package)? > > > > If it is rebranded, why not? It is not a trademark question anymore > > after that. > > > I would assume fedora would only want to distribute things branded fedora. Well, that depends on where the pool exists -- after all, we have things that are not Fedora "branded" in the Fedora Hosted service. -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Sun Aug 31 03:29:17 2008 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (Seth Vidal) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2008 23:29:17 -0400 Subject: One person - several FAS accounts? (was: bodhi abuse?) In-Reply-To: <20080831005704.a9bd7815.bugs.michael@gmx.net> References: <20080830131505.9a8258ca.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <20080830170124.ca4b360e.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <20080830184658.GA25578@victor.nirvana> <20080831005704.a9bd7815.bugs.michael@gmx.net> Message-ID: <1220153357.15215.3.camel@rosebud> On Sun, 2008-08-31 at 00:57 +0200, Michael Schwendt wrote: > On Sat, 30 Aug 2008 21:46:58 +0300, Axel Thimm wrote: > > > I agree with Michael about 10^10%. > > > > FAS accounts should be only one for each user. If there are needs for > > having several accounts for one person, these needs should be > > explained and either the FAS system extended to cover these cases, or > > special cased by whatever entity (fesco, fab, Fedora infra team?) is > > authoritative. > > > > Isn't there perhaps already some texting that one needs to click > > through that has the user sign that he will use only that account? > > Otherwise could someone add this? > > > > Besides bodhi fake voting this can even be used for fab/fesco fake > > voting (although it is probably harder to mark several > > same-person-accounts as packager accounts w/o anyone noticing it)! > > Just for the record and because my original post went to fedora-buildsys-list. > I've stumbled into suspicious voting activity in bodhi, such as: > > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/PackageKit-0.2.4-6.fc9 > (pending) > > +1 acottle - 2008-08-27 22:24:21 > +1 auscity - 2008-08-27 22:24:46 > +1 dcottle - 2008-08-27 22:25:11 > > There are more like that from those users. They have several things in > common. Never any comment except for sporadic words (or discussion with > other voters) from dcottle. Just the +1. Usually at least two of these > accounts vote in bodhi at the same time (i.e. with a delay of approx. 20 > seconds like above) and always on the same updates for both F9 and F8. > It is often voted on pending updates, where downloading from koji is > necessary. > > You can learn in one of dcottle's comments to a kernel update, where users > use bodhi to chat a bit, that his daily routine is to look for new builds > "in koji" in the morning hours. And yet it's three accounts that vote at > the same time on the same updates. > > Of course, I'm paranoid. ;) Of course, this is not the same person > behind those accounts. One can imagine how they sit next to eachother > and practise voting in bodhi at the same time several days a week > for every update they try. :) > > So, ... FAS confirmed that users dcottle and auscity are the same person > (actually with the email addresses swapped to make the connection even > more obvious), and acottle shares the surname *and* the domain name in the > email address. > > After I had mailed the three users and the list, I've received four angry > replies from the person trying to explain that the multiple votes are done > because the updates are tested on several machines. About an hour ago > I've received a rude reply that mentioned the obvious possibility (or is > it a threat of what to expect next?) of "registering countless hotmail, > yahoo or free accounts and commenting all day long" and a pool of 64 IP > addresses in order to conceal the activity in bodhi. > > > It's great that dcottle (David Cottle) has been such an active update > tester, who's listed somewhere near the top of bodhi's new metrics. Yet, > spending +3 karma points instead of just one should not be done with three > accounts. Superhero testers (especially those who really test > hardware-dependent updates on lots of different hardware) could gain extra > privileges in bodhi or be marked as VIPs in the future. I'm sure something > can be done to reward them for their contribution and to aid package > maintainers in deciding what level of testing an update has seen. > > However, all I see so far is an attempt at raising karma in bodhi in the > hope that the updates will be pushed to stable sooner. And that is > foul play IMO. Yes, This seems like a real problem to me. Thanks for the heads up. -sv From mmcgrath at redhat.com Sun Aug 31 03:36:19 2008 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2008 22:36:19 -0500 (CDT) Subject: One person - several FAS accounts? (was: bodhi abuse?) In-Reply-To: <1220153357.15215.3.camel@rosebud> References: <20080830131505.9a8258ca.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <20080830170124.ca4b360e.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <20080830184658.GA25578@victor.nirvana> <20080831005704.a9bd7815.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <1220153357.15215.3.camel@rosebud> Message-ID: On Sat, 30 Aug 2008, Seth Vidal wrote: > On Sun, 2008-08-31 at 00:57 +0200, Michael Schwendt wrote: > > On Sat, 30 Aug 2008 21:46:58 +0300, Axel Thimm wrote: > > > > > I agree with Michael about 10^10%. > > > > > > FAS accounts should be only one for each user. If there are needs for > > > having several accounts for one person, these needs should be > > > explained and either the FAS system extended to cover these cases, or > > > special cased by whatever entity (fesco, fab, Fedora infra team?) is > > > authoritative. > > > > > > Isn't there perhaps already some texting that one needs to click > > > through that has the user sign that he will use only that account? > > > Otherwise could someone add this? > > > > > > Besides bodhi fake voting this can even be used for fab/fesco fake > > > voting (although it is probably harder to mark several > > > same-person-accounts as packager accounts w/o anyone noticing it)! > > > > Just for the record and because my original post went to fedora-buildsys-list. > > I've stumbled into suspicious voting activity in bodhi, such as: > > > > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/PackageKit-0.2.4-6.fc9 > > (pending) > > > > +1 acottle - 2008-08-27 22:24:21 > > +1 auscity - 2008-08-27 22:24:46 > > +1 dcottle - 2008-08-27 22:25:11 > > > > There are more like that from those users. They have several things in > > common. Never any comment except for sporadic words (or discussion with > > other voters) from dcottle. Just the +1. Usually at least two of these > > accounts vote in bodhi at the same time (i.e. with a delay of approx. 20 > > seconds like above) and always on the same updates for both F9 and F8. > > It is often voted on pending updates, where downloading from koji is > > necessary. > > > > You can learn in one of dcottle's comments to a kernel update, where users > > use bodhi to chat a bit, that his daily routine is to look for new builds > > "in koji" in the morning hours. And yet it's three accounts that vote at > > the same time on the same updates. > > > > Of course, I'm paranoid. ;) Of course, this is not the same person > > behind those accounts. One can imagine how they sit next to eachother > > and practise voting in bodhi at the same time several days a week > > for every update they try. :) > > > > So, ... FAS confirmed that users dcottle and auscity are the same person > > (actually with the email addresses swapped to make the connection even > > more obvious), and acottle shares the surname *and* the domain name in the > > email address. > > > > After I had mailed the three users and the list, I've received four angry > > replies from the person trying to explain that the multiple votes are done > > because the updates are tested on several machines. About an hour ago > > I've received a rude reply that mentioned the obvious possibility (or is > > it a threat of what to expect next?) of "registering countless hotmail, > > yahoo or free accounts and commenting all day long" and a pool of 64 IP > > addresses in order to conceal the activity in bodhi. > > > > > > It's great that dcottle (David Cottle) has been such an active update > > tester, who's listed somewhere near the top of bodhi's new metrics. Yet, > > spending +3 karma points instead of just one should not be done with three > > accounts. Superhero testers (especially those who really test > > hardware-dependent updates on lots of different hardware) could gain extra > > privileges in bodhi or be marked as VIPs in the future. I'm sure something > > can be done to reward them for their contribution and to aid package > > maintainers in deciding what level of testing an update has seen. > > > > However, all I see so far is an attempt at raising karma in bodhi in the > > hope that the updates will be pushed to stable sooner. And that is > > foul play IMO. > > Yes, This seems like a real problem to me. > > Thanks for the heads up. > If this becomes a real problem (or if it is already) we can just create a policy against this sort of thing and enforce it on a per complaint basis. -Mike From dominik at greysector.net Sun Aug 31 09:57:34 2008 From: dominik at greysector.net (Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2008 11:57:34 +0200 Subject: One person - several FAS accounts? (was: bodhi abuse?) In-Reply-To: References: <20080830131505.9a8258ca.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <20080830170124.ca4b360e.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <20080830184658.GA25578@victor.nirvana> <20080831005704.a9bd7815.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <1220153357.15215.3.camel@rosebud> Message-ID: <20080831095734.GC11794@mokona.greysector.net> On Sunday, 31 August 2008 at 05:36, Mike McGrath wrote: > On Sat, 30 Aug 2008, Seth Vidal wrote: > > > On Sun, 2008-08-31 at 00:57 +0200, Michael Schwendt wrote: > > > On Sat, 30 Aug 2008 21:46:58 +0300, Axel Thimm wrote: > > > > > > > I agree with Michael about 10^10%. > > > > > > > > FAS accounts should be only one for each user. If there are needs for > > > > having several accounts for one person, these needs should be > > > > explained and either the FAS system extended to cover these cases, or > > > > special cased by whatever entity (fesco, fab, Fedora infra team?) is > > > > authoritative. > > > > > > > > Isn't there perhaps already some texting that one needs to click > > > > through that has the user sign that he will use only that account? > > > > Otherwise could someone add this? > > > > > > > > Besides bodhi fake voting this can even be used for fab/fesco fake > > > > voting (although it is probably harder to mark several > > > > same-person-accounts as packager accounts w/o anyone noticing it)! > > > > > > Just for the record and because my original post went to fedora-buildsys-list. > > > I've stumbled into suspicious voting activity in bodhi, such as: [...] > > > However, all I see so far is an attempt at raising karma in bodhi in the > > > hope that the updates will be pushed to stable sooner. And that is > > > foul play IMO. > > > > Yes, This seems like a real problem to me. > > > > Thanks for the heads up. > > > > If this becomes a real problem (or if it is already) we can just create a > policy against this sort of thing and enforce it on a per complaint basis. Actually this sort of thing is better handled by automated monitoring, for example >2 votes within 5 minutes and/or from the same IP range should raise some flags. Regards, R. -- Fedora http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Rathann Livna http://rpm.livna.org | MPlayer http://mplayerhq.hu "Faith manages." -- Delenn to Lennier in Babylon 5:"Confessions and Lamentations" From jwboyer at gmail.com Sun Aug 31 14:46:28 2008 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2008 10:46:28 -0400 Subject: One person - several FAS accounts? (was: bodhi abuse?) In-Reply-To: <20080831095734.GC11794@mokona.greysector.net> References: <20080830131505.9a8258ca.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <20080830170124.ca4b360e.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <20080830184658.GA25578@victor.nirvana> <20080831005704.a9bd7815.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <1220153357.15215.3.camel@rosebud> <20080831095734.GC11794@mokona.greysector.net> Message-ID: <20080831144616.GA22952@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> On Sun, Aug 31, 2008 at 11:57:34AM +0200, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote: >> If this becomes a real problem (or if it is already) we can just create a >> policy against this sort of thing and enforce it on a per complaint basis. > >Actually this sort of thing is better handled by automated monitoring, >for example >2 votes within 5 minutes and/or from the same IP range should >raise some flags. It's not that simple. Large companies can have a small handful of public facing IP addresses, but a very large number of legitimate users behind those few addresses. josh