From stickster at gmail.com Mon Dec 1 17:19:10 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 12:19:10 -0500 Subject: FUDCon F11 Boston Message-ID: <20081201171910.GO18297@localhost.localdomain> FUDCon F11 Boston -- News Update! ================================= * All of our location information is confirmed -- we will be holding the conference as predicted, at MIT in the Sloan Building. There will be plentiful space for hackfests and BarCamp sessions over the course of the weekend. * FUDPub will be held at Flat Top Johnny's on Saturday night (January 10) from 6:00-10:00pm. * The wiki remains open for registration. Please remember to note your shirt size, whether you prefer vegetarian fare for lunch on Saturday, and any other important information (in the "Comments" section). * The hotel group rate is good until DECEMBER 19. After that, it will be up to the hotel to decide whether or not to extend their offer of $99/night. So sign up now! And here's some further news to sweeten the pot -- the One Laptop Per Child and SugarLabs communities will be joining us for FUDCon, to address areas of common interest like packaging and building for these unique projects, and to talk to Fedora community members about getting involved. This should make FUDCon a very exciting event and I look forward to seeing everyone there who can make it! -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jwboyer at gmail.com Tue Dec 2 13:56:07 2008 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 08:56:07 -0500 Subject: F11 Naming: Sulphur -> Cambridge -> ? Message-ID: <20081202135607.GA2344@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> Hi All, It's that time of year again. Time to start the naming process for the next Fedora release. To recap on the rules: 1) must have some link to Cambridge More specifically, the link should be Cambridge is a and is a Where is the same for both 2) The link between and Cambridge cannot be the same as between Sulphur and Cambridge. That link was "both are cities". We're doing the name collection differently this year than in the past. Contributors wishing to make a suggestion are asked to go to the F11 naming wiki page, and add an entry to the suggestion table found there: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Name_suggestions_for_Fedora_11 The naming submissions are open starting now until Dec 8. The rest of the schedule is outlined on the wiki page. So, put on your thinking caps and come up with some really good suggestions! Happy naming. josh From matt at domsch.com Wed Dec 3 03:45:22 2008 From: matt at domsch.com (Matt Domsch) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 21:45:22 -0600 Subject: Election Town Halls In-Reply-To: <20081124171632.GA3725@domsch.com> References: <20081124171632.GA3725@domsch.com> Message-ID: <20081203034522.GB23919@domsch.com> On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 11:16:32AM -0600, Matt Domsch wrote: > When setting up the upcoming elections, based on participant requests, > I announced we would have some IRC Town Halls, for each of the groups > being elected, between Thursday December 4 and Saturday December 6. > > I'd like to propose each group have at least one, and if the group so > wishes, two, such town halls. If two, schedule them at somewhat > opposite times of day to allow greatest community participation in at > least one. > > Schedule: non-overlapping, first-come-first-serve by the groups. I've > put up a placeholder schedule for the Board town halls, subject to > revision based on availability of the nominees. > > > Committee chairs: please discuss with your nominees the best times > they are available, and schedule on the wiki page [1] accordingly. > > > Moderators: consider this a call for moderators. If you would like to > moderate one or more sessions, please contact me directly. Moderators > will take questions from the -public IRC channel, ask them in the > -townhall channel, and try to keep the conversations on topic. We still need moderators for two town hall sessions: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Elections#Schedule Friday 02:00 UTC Fedora Project Board 9pm Eastern Thursday night Saturday 17:00 UTC FAMSCo Noon Eastern Saturday I would appreciate volunteers, but will draft people if necessary. :-) Thanks, Matt From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Dec 3 10:32:27 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 16:02:27 +0530 Subject: Mailing lists Message-ID: <4936603B.4060303@fedoraproject.org> Hi, A number of Fedora mailing lists have very outdated descriptions including references to "Fedora Core". Is anyone responsible for making sure that the descriptions of all the mailing lists are up2date and generally taking care of them? The wiki could use some more attention as well. FESCo is still posting updates to wiki pages under the Extras hierarchy for example. Rahul From jwboyer at gmail.com Wed Dec 3 12:48:39 2008 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 07:48:39 -0500 Subject: Mailing lists In-Reply-To: <4936603B.4060303@fedoraproject.org> References: <4936603B.4060303@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <20081203124839.GA2346@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> On Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 04:02:27PM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi, > > A number of Fedora mailing lists have very outdated descriptions > including references to "Fedora Core". Is anyone responsible for making > sure that the descriptions of all the mailing lists are up2date and > generally taking care of them? > > The wiki could use some more attention as well. FESCo is still posting > updates to wiki pages under the Extras hierarchy for example. Why is any of that fedora-advisory-board material? As for the wiki, it's a wiki. Fix it. If it bothers you but you aren't bothered enough to actually fix it, why would anyone else? josh From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Dec 3 13:10:55 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 18:40:55 +0530 Subject: Mailing lists In-Reply-To: <20081203124839.GA2346@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> References: <4936603B.4060303@fedoraproject.org> <20081203124839.GA2346@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: <4936855F.4070503@fedoraproject.org> Josh Boyer wrote: > On Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 04:02:27PM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> Hi, >> >> A number of Fedora mailing lists have very outdated descriptions >> including references to "Fedora Core". Is anyone responsible for making >> sure that the descriptions of all the mailing lists are up2date and >> generally taking care of them? >> >> The wiki could use some more attention as well. FESCo is still posting >> updates to wiki pages under the Extras hierarchy for example. > > Why is any of that fedora-advisory-board material? I think the disorganization of mailing lists is a project wide concern and we have discussed it in here before. Knowing who, if anybody is taking care of it, would help choose a more direct venue perhaps. > As for the wiki, it's a wiki. Fix it. If it bothers you but you aren't > bothered enough to actually fix it, why would anyone else? You are probably not remembering the history here. Feel free to look up list archives. I did most of the renames of the pages during the core-extras merge and there was some concerns expressed in this list that it was overstepping FESCo's domain and that's the reason I don't do it anymore. Rahul From stickster at gmail.com Wed Dec 3 14:21:49 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 09:21:49 -0500 Subject: Mailing lists In-Reply-To: <4936855F.4070503@fedoraproject.org> References: <4936603B.4060303@fedoraproject.org> <20081203124839.GA2346@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> <4936855F.4070503@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <20081203142149.GH5632@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 06:40:55PM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Josh Boyer wrote: >> On Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 04:02:27PM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> A number of Fedora mailing lists have very outdated descriptions >>> including references to "Fedora Core". Is anyone responsible for >>> making sure that the descriptions of all the mailing lists are >>> up2date and generally taking care of them? >>> >>> The wiki could use some more attention as well. FESCo is still >>> posting updates to wiki pages under the Extras hierarchy for >>> example. >> >> Why is any of that fedora-advisory-board material? > > I think the disorganization of mailing lists is a project wide concern > and we have discussed it in here before. Knowing who, if anybody is > taking care of it, would help choose a more direct venue perhaps. IIRC there is a *-owner address for each list (e.g. fedora-devel-list-owner at redhat.com). You could send email to the list owners that way, and any one of them should be able to remove "Core" from the description. Chris Tyler and I updated the description of fedora-list not too long ago, for example. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Dec 3 17:01:48 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 12:01:48 -0500 Subject: FUDCon F11 Boston In-Reply-To: <20081201171910.GO18297@localhost.localdomain> References: <20081201171910.GO18297@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20081203170148.GK13562@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, Dec 01, 2008 at 12:19:10PM -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote: > FUDCon F11 Boston -- News Update! > ================================= > > * All of our location information is confirmed -- we will be holding > the conference as predicted, at MIT in the Sloan Building. There > will be plentiful space for hackfests and BarCamp sessions over the > course of the weekend. > > * FUDPub will be held at Flat Top Johnny's on Saturday night (January > 10) from 6:00-10:00pm. > > * The wiki remains open for registration. Please remember to note > your shirt size, whether you prefer vegetarian fare for lunch on > Saturday, and any other important information (in the "Comments" > section). > > * The hotel group rate is good until DECEMBER 19. After that, it will > be up to the hotel to decide whether or not to extend their offer of > $99/night. So sign up now! > > And here's some further news to sweeten the pot -- the One Laptop Per > Child and SugarLabs communities will be joining us for FUDCon, to > address areas of common interest like packaging and building for these > unique projects, and to talk to Fedora community members about getting > involved. This should make FUDCon a very exciting event and I look > forward to seeing everyone there who can make it! I apologize for following one announcement with another, but I left out some helpful links and information that could be useful for community members who don't follow the wiki or planet feed.[1] FUDCon F11 Boston will be held all day January 9-11, 2009, at MIT's Sloan Building as previously noted. You do not need a Fedora account to use the wiki page to pre-register for the conference: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FUDCon/FUDConF11 FUDCon, as always, is free of cost and open to anyone to attend. Pre-registration entitles each attendee to a complimentary gift, lunch on Saturday, and dinner and a beverage on Sunday. Also, please sign up for a BarCamp or hackfest session. These sessions can include any topic around which you want to gather people to collaborate and learn. Many sessions are not announced until the event begins, but pre-announcing them gives other community members a chance to see more reasons why FUDCon is such a worthwhile event for everyone. Pre-registration will end on or about December 19th, so sign up today. = = = [1] The decongestants aren't helping either. ;-) -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Dec 3 17:09:26 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 12:09:26 -0500 Subject: FUDCon F11 Boston In-Reply-To: <20081203170148.GK13562@localhost.localdomain> References: <20081201171910.GO18297@localhost.localdomain> <20081203170148.GK13562@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20081203170926.GM13562@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 12:01:48PM -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote: > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FUDCon/FUDConF11 > > FUDCon, as always, is free of cost and open to anyone to attend. > Pre-registration entitles each attendee to a complimentary gift, lunch > on Saturday, and dinner and a beverage on Sunday. ^^^^^^ Ever have one of those days? This should have read "Saturday night." Pre-registrants get free lunch during the day on Saturday at BarCamp, and dinner and a beverage on Saturday night at FUDPub. Very sorry for the spam, all. Paul -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mspevack at redhat.com Wed Dec 3 17:29:31 2008 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 18:29:31 +0100 (CET) Subject: Mailing lists In-Reply-To: <4936855F.4070503@fedoraproject.org> References: <4936603B.4060303@fedoraproject.org> <20081203124839.GA2346@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> <4936855F.4070503@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Dec 2008, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > You are probably not remembering the history here. Feel free to look > up list archives. I did most of the renames of the pages during the > core-extras merge and there was some concerns expressed in this list > that it was overstepping FESCo's domain and that's the reason I don't > do it anymore. That's true. Rahul renamed a bunch of pages after the F7 Core/Extras merge, and I do remember him catching a bunch of heat for it (which to be frank I never quite understood why), so I can see why he would be a little gun-shy this time around. --Max From poelstra at redhat.com Wed Dec 3 19:10:07 2008 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2008 11:10:07 -0800 Subject: Fedora Board Meeting Recap 2008-12-02 Message-ID: <4936D98F.1010302@redhat.com> Recap and full IRC transcripts for the moderated and public channels are here: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/Meetings/2008-12-02 Please make corrections and clarifications to the wiki page. == Upcoming Elections == * https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Elections * The Board nominees should be appearing at 0200 UTC and 1500 UTC on Friday 2008-12-05 to take questions at #fedora-townhall and #fedora-townhall-public == Q&A Topics == * What are the lessons learned from Fedora 10? * What will be the impact from the multihead feature? * Where does Fedora as a project need to improve the most from the community perspective? * What's stickster's favorite flavor of ice cream? * Since FUDcon11 was planned in an insensitive way with respect to college football fans, is there a planned BCS championship get-together in the works? == #fedora-board-meeting == == #fedora-board-public == From stickster at gmail.com Wed Dec 3 20:48:56 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 15:48:56 -0500 Subject: Policy on DST Message-ID: <20081203204856.GN495@localhost.localdomain> Every once in a while there's a random annoyance that seems worth bringing up and documenting for posterity. Hopefully this is one of those times. In a nutshell: Does Fedora need a minimal policy for shifting the schedule of the #fedora-meeting channel to account for DST? Sticking with UTC sounds simple. It's tempting to just use the geek perspective and say that's the standard, but this standard causes actual problems for humans, who govern their lives by local clocks. Moving meeting times back and forth in local time during the year seems arbitrary, and can create new conflicts that were carefully negotiated months before. That's a barrier, and therefore my and the Board's job to assess and remove if possible. Most of our contributor base observes some sort of DST, so we should simply set dates on which the schedule shifts automatically. We need not use USA standards for the date of the shifting. Practically speaking, the effect is that the meeting that happens at 11:00 local time during DST stays at 11:00 local time when DST ends, and vice versa. That's much easier on humans than dickering around with UTC, especially when the tools we use for tracking our time already have the built-in capacity to change over from DST to non-DST. Why bring this up? Take for example a Fedora team that meets in the hour between two other meetings in the channel. The prior meeting moves its schedule in UTC (to stay at the same local time) and the following one does not, and thus shifts earlier by an hour when DST ends. Suddenly there's a conflict. We could leave this up to individual teams to resolve when this happens, but wouldn't it be easier to just change one wiki page twice a year? And no, the decongestants haven't worn off yet, thanks for asking. ;-) -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From fugolini at fedoraproject.org Wed Dec 3 20:56:08 2008 From: fugolini at fedoraproject.org (Francesco Ugolini) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 21:56:08 +0100 Subject: Policy on DST In-Reply-To: <20081203204856.GN495@localhost.localdomain> References: <20081203204856.GN495@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: 2008/12/3 Paul W. Frields : > We could leave this up to individual teams to resolve when this > happens, but wouldn't it be easier to just change one wiki page twice > a year? The idea sounds good. It could help resolve this annoying problem. At least, like it will happen for Ambassadors, after the DST move or sunlight come back, the projects that don't want to make this automatic change could see for other solution (without disturbing the others times). I totally agree with you. Great idea! Regards Francesco Ugolini From notting at redhat.com Wed Dec 3 20:59:06 2008 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 15:59:06 -0500 Subject: Policy on DST In-Reply-To: <20081203204856.GN495@localhost.localdomain> References: <20081203204856.GN495@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20081203205906.GA14354@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Paul W. Frields (stickster at gmail.com) said: > Most of our contributor base observes some sort of DST, so we should > simply set dates on which the schedule shifts automatically. We need > not use USA standards for the date of the shifting. Well, we'll annoy one hemisphere either way. But I'm for it. Bill From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Wed Dec 3 21:08:19 2008 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (Seth Vidal) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 16:08:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: Policy on DST In-Reply-To: <20081203204856.GN495@localhost.localdomain> References: <20081203204856.GN495@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Dec 2008, Paul W. Frields wrote: > Every once in a while there's a random annoyance that seems worth > bringing up and documenting for posterity. Hopefully this is one of > those times. > > In a nutshell: Does Fedora need a minimal policy for shifting the > schedule of the #fedora-meeting channel to account for DST? > > Sticking with UTC sounds simple. It's tempting to just use the geek > perspective and say that's the standard, but this standard causes > actual problems for humans, who govern their lives by local clocks. > Moving meeting times back and forth in local time during the year > seems arbitrary, and can create new conflicts that were carefully > negotiated months before. That's a barrier, and therefore my and the > Board's job to assess and remove if possible. > This falls into the giant category for me. as long as we're all on the same page, it's fine w/me either way. -sv From stickster at gmail.com Wed Dec 3 21:23:20 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 16:23:20 -0500 Subject: Board appointment Message-ID: <20081203212320.GO495@localhost.localdomain> During this election season, there are two (2) appointed seats and two (2) community-elected seats open on the Fedora Board. This cycle, Bill Nottingham, Karsten Wade, Matt Domsch, and Jef Spaleta are turning over their seats. These folks have given very generously of their time over the last year -- and in some cases years -- and helped with a great deal of heavy lifting. Thank you, each and every one; the community and I are in your debt! http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Elections https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/Elections/Nominations As you'll see from the URLs above, there is an incredible slate of worthy candidates up for election, and I'm very excited to see people who are interested and passionate in helping drive Fedora forward by helping the Board remove barriers to contribution. Those barriers get reduced steadily over time, but there is always more to do. The elections will begin on 7 December, after a set of town hall meetings where community members can ask the nominees questions. Check the general elections wiki page above for the schedule and details. We have set these meetings up in response to community requests and encourage you to attend as many as you like. You should also feel free to write to individual nominees directly to ask questions that are important to you. The two appointed seats on the Board are nominated by Red Hat and chosen by the FPL. One appointment is held back until after the elections so that the Board's composition can be balanced as needed. The balance of the appointments are announced before elections.[1] For this cycle, Chris Aillon will return to the Board as an appointee. Chris is a long-time Fedora contributor and member of the Red Hat Desktop team, and among other responsibilities he is the maintainer of the ever-popular Mozilla Firefox and related packages in Fedora and in RHEL. Chris served on the Board previously for approximately a year, from summer 2007 to summer 2008.[2] The Board and I welcome him back, and look forward to working with him again. = = = [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/SuccessionPlanning [2] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/History -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dennis at ausil.us Wed Dec 3 21:26:24 2008 From: dennis at ausil.us (Dennis Gilmore) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 15:26:24 -0600 Subject: Policy on DST In-Reply-To: <20081203204856.GN495@localhost.localdomain> References: <20081203204856.GN495@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200812031526.24993.dennis@ausil.us> On Wednesday 03 December 2008 02:48:56 pm Paul W. Frields wrote: > Every once in a while there's a random annoyance that seems worth > bringing up and documenting for posterity. Hopefully this is one of > those times. > > In a nutshell: Does Fedora need a minimal policy for shifting the > schedule of the #fedora-meeting channel to account for DST? > > Sticking with UTC sounds simple. It's tempting to just use the geek > perspective and say that's the standard, but this standard causes > actual problems for humans, who govern their lives by local clocks. > Moving meeting times back and forth in local time during the year > seems arbitrary, and can create new conflicts that were carefully > negotiated months before. That's a barrier, and therefore my and the > Board's job to assess and remove if possible. Except the southern hemisphere has DST at completely different times of the year. and different countries start and stop at different times of the year also. If you record your meeting is UTC time you will always get the notification that the meeting is starting at the correct time. There is no simple answer here. the simplest thing to me seems to be stay at UTC. Dennis From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Wed Dec 3 21:31:59 2008 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (Seth Vidal) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 16:31:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: Policy on DST In-Reply-To: <200812031526.24993.dennis@ausil.us> References: <20081203204856.GN495@localhost.localdomain> <200812031526.24993.dennis@ausil.us> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Dec 2008, Dennis Gilmore wrote: > On Wednesday 03 December 2008 02:48:56 pm Paul W. Frields wrote: >> Every once in a while there's a random annoyance that seems worth >> bringing up and documenting for posterity. Hopefully this is one of >> those times. >> >> In a nutshell: Does Fedora need a minimal policy for shifting the >> schedule of the #fedora-meeting channel to account for DST? >> >> Sticking with UTC sounds simple. It's tempting to just use the geek >> perspective and say that's the standard, but this standard causes >> actual problems for humans, who govern their lives by local clocks. >> Moving meeting times back and forth in local time during the year >> seems arbitrary, and can create new conflicts that were carefully >> negotiated months before. That's a barrier, and therefore my and the >> Board's job to assess and remove if possible. > > Except the southern hemisphere has DST at completely different times of the > year. and different countries start and stop at different times of the year > also. If you record your meeting is UTC time you will always get the > notification that the meeting is starting at the correct time. There is no > simple answer here. the simplest thing to me seems to be stay at UTC. ooo - dennis has a point about the southern hemisphere. I think I agree with him as to staying with UTC. -sv From mmcgrath at redhat.com Wed Dec 3 21:38:10 2008 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 15:38:10 -0600 (CST) Subject: Policy on DST In-Reply-To: <20081203204856.GN495@localhost.localdomain> References: <20081203204856.GN495@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Dec 2008, Paul W. Frields wrote: > Every once in a while there's a random annoyance that seems worth > bringing up and documenting for posterity. Hopefully this is one of > those times. > > In a nutshell: Does Fedora need a minimal policy for shifting the > schedule of the #fedora-meeting channel to account for DST? > > Sticking with UTC sounds simple. It's tempting to just use the geek > perspective and say that's the standard, but this standard causes > actual problems for humans, who govern their lives by local clocks. > Moving meeting times back and forth in local time during the year > seems arbitrary, and can create new conflicts that were carefully > negotiated months before. That's a barrier, and therefore my and the > Board's job to assess and remove if possible. > > Most of our contributor base observes some sort of DST, so we should > simply set dates on which the schedule shifts automatically. We need > not use USA standards for the date of the shifting. > Eh, we inconvenice everyone a bit now but knowing what time to get to in UTC isn't really that hard. While it might be easy for us in the states to say "yeah, lets just $ST it". Our time change is in a different time then other countries though they do happen around the same time, usually less then 2 months apart I think. It's hard enough to be a contributor when you're not in the US time zones. Imagine being on the the other side of the planet, having US time change. Having to adjust on your clock for a meeting. Then having your local time change, having to adjust again. To me its a bigger burden on non-US folk with questionable payoff. We're global, UTC is globally recognized. No it's not what time we use in our little bubble to ask our spouses what time we'll be home for dinner but I think Fedora is bigger / more mature then that. -Mike From notting at redhat.com Wed Dec 3 21:41:51 2008 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 16:41:51 -0500 Subject: Policy on DST In-Reply-To: References: <20081203204856.GN495@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20081203214151.GD14354@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Mike McGrath (mmcgrath at redhat.com) said: > with questionable payoff. We're global, UTC is globally recognized. No > it's not what time we use in our little bubble to ask our spouses what > time we'll be home for dinner but I think Fedora is bigger / more mature > then that. Yes, but... if any particular group is only in one timezone, or one DST area... why should they move their meeting? While we should certainly keep the schedule page in UTC, I'm not sure we should hold the users to fixed slots therein, as long as they keep it updated. As a contrast, I can definitely think of large global corporations who have multi-office meetings that stay at a particular fixed local time, even when DST changes. Bill From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed Dec 3 21:40:34 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 12:40:34 -0900 Subject: Policy on DST In-Reply-To: References: <20081203204856.GN495@localhost.localdomain> <200812031526.24993.dennis@ausil.us> Message-ID: <604aa7910812031340h546262b7kc0a2adcbb949050e@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 12:31 PM, Seth Vidal wrote: > I think I agree with him as to staying with UTC. UTC is absolutely the simplest answer and most global way to deal with it. -jef"or we could something crazy and use a Fedora release schedule based clock and have meeting times listed as fractional days since last official Fedora release. Then we'd all be equally confused"spaleta . From stickster at gmail.com Wed Dec 3 21:43:17 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 16:43:17 -0500 Subject: Policy on DST In-Reply-To: References: <20081203204856.GN495@localhost.localdomain> <200812031526.24993.dennis@ausil.us> Message-ID: <20081203214317.GS495@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 04:31:59PM -0500, Seth Vidal wrote: > > On Wed, 3 Dec 2008, Dennis Gilmore wrote: > >> On Wednesday 03 December 2008 02:48:56 pm Paul W. Frields wrote: >>> Every once in a while there's a random annoyance that seems worth >>> bringing up and documenting for posterity. Hopefully this is one of >>> those times. >>> >>> In a nutshell: Does Fedora need a minimal policy for shifting the >>> schedule of the #fedora-meeting channel to account for DST? >>> >>> Sticking with UTC sounds simple. It's tempting to just use the geek >>> perspective and say that's the standard, but this standard causes >>> actual problems for humans, who govern their lives by local clocks. >>> Moving meeting times back and forth in local time during the year >>> seems arbitrary, and can create new conflicts that were carefully >>> negotiated months before. That's a barrier, and therefore my and the >>> Board's job to assess and remove if possible. >> >> Except the southern hemisphere has DST at completely different times of the >> year. and different countries start and stop at different times of the year >> also. If you record your meeting is UTC time you will always get the >> notification that the meeting is starting at the correct time. There is no >> simple answer here. the simplest thing to me seems to be stay at UTC. > > ooo - dennis has a point about the southern hemisphere. > > I think I agree with him as to staying with UTC. Hm, good point. There's also China and India which don't use DST. I suspect that if we took a heat map we'd be inconveniencing 20-30% or more of our contributors. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Dec 3 21:47:55 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 16:47:55 -0500 Subject: Policy on DST In-Reply-To: <20081203214151.GD14354@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <20081203204856.GN495@localhost.localdomain> <20081203214151.GD14354@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20081203214755.GT495@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 04:41:51PM -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Mike McGrath (mmcgrath at redhat.com) said: > > with questionable payoff. We're global, UTC is globally recognized. No > > it's not what time we use in our little bubble to ask our spouses what > > time we'll be home for dinner but I think Fedora is bigger / more mature > > then that. > > Yes, but... if any particular group is only in one timezone, or one DST > area... why should they move their meeting? > > While we should certainly keep the schedule page in UTC, I'm not sure > we should hold the users to fixed slots therein, as long as they > keep it updated. > > As a contrast, I can definitely think of large global corporations who > have multi-office meetings that stay at a particular fixed local time, > even when DST changes. That's more what I was getting at. This isn't about someone's meal convenience but the fact that plenty of our volunteer contributors take time out of their $DAYJOB to come to Fedora meetings. They have their own professional schedules to keep, as do we who are lucky enough to work on Fedora full-time. Thus my point about respecting the human element of the local clock. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed Dec 3 21:48:13 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 12:48:13 -0900 Subject: Policy on DST In-Reply-To: <20081203214317.GS495@localhost.localdomain> References: <20081203204856.GN495@localhost.localdomain> <200812031526.24993.dennis@ausil.us> <20081203214317.GS495@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <604aa7910812031348l7a5baa0ci4ddeba19afb30a02@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 12:43 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > Hm, good point. There's also China and India which don't use DST. I > suspect that if we took a heat map we'd be inconveniencing 20-30% or > more of our contributors. Maps!!!!!!!! If we had lat/lon or geoip data for contributors...this would be easy. You match country code to DST observance..isnt that in or tzdata already? crank over contributor locations and easily see how much and where a specific meeting time policy hurts. -jef From luis at tieguy.org Wed Dec 3 21:44:29 2008 From: luis at tieguy.org (Luis Villa) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 16:44:29 -0500 Subject: Policy on DST In-Reply-To: <20081203214151.GD14354@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <20081203204856.GN495@localhost.localdomain> <20081203214151.GD14354@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <2cb10c440812031344t726bb4cka9d950c4c753d1b4@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 4:41 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Mike McGrath (mmcgrath at redhat.com) said: >> with questionable payoff. We're global, UTC is globally recognized. No >> it's not what time we use in our little bubble to ask our spouses what >> time we'll be home for dinner but I think Fedora is bigger / more mature >> then that. > > Yes, but... if any particular group is only in one timezone, or one DST > area... why should they move their meeting? If any particular group is only in one timezone (other than translators), you're probably doing something wrong ;) Luis From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed Dec 3 21:50:40 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 12:50:40 -0900 Subject: Policy on DST In-Reply-To: <20081203214151.GD14354@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <20081203204856.GN495@localhost.localdomain> <20081203214151.GD14354@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910812031350g77bb5e1clca931a7db0ad1d2@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 12:41 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: > While we should certainly keep the schedule page in UTC, I'm not sure > we should hold the users to fixed slots therein, as long as they > keep it updated. This would feel better if we had a system with multiple irc conferences rooms...equipped with logbots so meetings and participants could just move to the next available room instead of trying to walling into a room other meetings are using. -jef From notting at redhat.com Wed Dec 3 21:54:52 2008 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 16:54:52 -0500 Subject: Policy on DST In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440812031344t726bb4cka9d950c4c753d1b4@mail.gmail.com> References: <20081203204856.GN495@localhost.localdomain> <20081203214151.GD14354@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <2cb10c440812031344t726bb4cka9d950c4c753d1b4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081203215452.GE14354@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Luis Villa (luis at tieguy.org) said: > > Yes, but... if any particular group is only in one timezone, or one DST > > area... why should they move their meeting? > > If any particular group is only in one timezone (other than > translators), you're probably doing something wrong ;) It depends on the group - there's a Fedora EMEA group that I wouldn't begrudge use of the channel to, and there have been times where the entire board was in North America. Bill From luis at tieguy.org Wed Dec 3 22:00:56 2008 From: luis at tieguy.org (Luis Villa) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 17:00:56 -0500 Subject: Policy on DST In-Reply-To: <20081203215452.GE14354@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <20081203204856.GN495@localhost.localdomain> <20081203214151.GD14354@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <2cb10c440812031344t726bb4cka9d950c4c753d1b4@mail.gmail.com> <20081203215452.GE14354@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <2cb10c440812031400u2bdd824ap4e52e323f8df6242@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 4:54 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Luis Villa (luis at tieguy.org) said: >> > Yes, but... if any particular group is only in one timezone, or one DST >> > area... why should they move their meeting? >> >> If any particular group is only in one timezone (other than >> translators), you're probably doing something wrong ;) > > It depends on the group - there's a Fedora EMEA group that I wouldn't > begrudge use of the channel to, You're right; translation->translation or other traditionally geography-tied groups. > and there have been times where the > entire board was in North America. That falls into the 'probably doing something wrong' category. :) (I don't know if Ubuntu still does this, but at one time their public IRC meetings rotated by +6 hours every meeting, so that at some point all members had to attend sleepy and cranky, and vice-versa all members of 'the public' in the less favored time zones at some point or another got a chance to attend a less-lousy meeting time. May be something to consider for the public board IRC meetings.) Luis From stickster at gmail.com Wed Dec 3 22:11:19 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 17:11:19 -0500 Subject: Policy on DST In-Reply-To: <604aa7910812031350g77bb5e1clca931a7db0ad1d2@mail.gmail.com> References: <20081203204856.GN495@localhost.localdomain> <20081203214151.GD14354@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <604aa7910812031350g77bb5e1clca931a7db0ad1d2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081203221119.GB19680@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 12:50:40PM -0900, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 12:41 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > While we should certainly keep the schedule page in UTC, I'm not sure > > we should hold the users to fixed slots therein, as long as they > > keep it updated. > > This would feel better if we had a system with multiple irc > conferences rooms...equipped with logbots so meetings and participants > could just move to the next available room instead of trying to > walling into a room other meetings are using. We have other meeting rooms established (#fedora-meeting-{1..4}), but there are rarely people in them, whereas lots of people camp in the main #fedora-meeting. OTOH we keep meeting logs and summaries for a reason beyond simple transparency; they're also for reference by people who don't or can't make the meetings themselves. Whether it's a logbot or a wiki page, interested people do still have to read the content. /me continues arguing with himself. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jonstanley at gmail.com Thu Dec 4 00:22:56 2008 From: jonstanley at gmail.com (Jon Stanley) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 19:22:56 -0500 Subject: Policy on DST In-Reply-To: <20081203214755.GT495@localhost.localdomain> References: <20081203204856.GN495@localhost.localdomain> <20081203214151.GD14354@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20081203214755.GT495@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 4:47 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > That's more what I was getting at. This isn't about someone's meal > convenience but the fact that plenty of our volunteer contributors > take time out of their $DAYJOB to come to Fedora meetings. They have > their own professional schedules to keep, as do we who are lucky Exactly my case. It's a lot easier to say "FESCo happens at 1PM on Wednesdays" than it is to say "well, you see, during the summer, we meet at 1PM, but during the winter, we decided we'd do it at noon" - which would also interfere with $LUNCH - hey, fat guy's gotta eat! (me) :) All in all, I'd prefer shifting DST, even though it's the stupidest idea ever invented, it's something we gotta live with :( From kwade at redhat.com Thu Dec 4 02:26:21 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 18:26:21 -0800 Subject: Policy on DST In-Reply-To: <20081203221119.GB19680@localhost.localdomain> References: <20081203204856.GN495@localhost.localdomain> <20081203214151.GD14354@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <604aa7910812031350g77bb5e1clca931a7db0ad1d2@mail.gmail.com> <20081203221119.GB19680@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20081204022621.GC11572@calliope.phig.org> On Wed, Dec 03, 2008 at 05:11:19PM -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote: > We have other meeting rooms established (#fedora-meeting-{1..4}), but > there are rarely people in them, whereas lots of people camp in the > main #fedora-meeting. OTOH we keep meeting logs and summaries for a > reason beyond simple transparency; they're also for reference by > people who don't or can't make the meetings themselves. Whether it's > a logbot or a wiki page, interested people do still have to read the > content. Perhaps we need to stick to UTC and improve our abilities for people to participate when they cannot make a meeting. Can anyone volunteer to extend e.g. zodbot to log meetings in multiple channels? This needs a simple system: * Type * Logging starts * First instance of stops the logging * 'bot creates a page on the wiki in the meeting namespace using 'irclog2html -s mediawiki': Meeting:Team_name_IRC_log_YYYYMMDD For a bonus feature request, anyone who does rollcall in the format of [[User:Username]] is automatically drawn in to an "Attending" list at the top of the page. :) - Karsten, who wants to extend zodbot to take tweets/identi.ca @zodbot messages to broadcast in multiple or specified rooms so he can send meeting upcoming reminders to #fedora-docs from SMS. -- Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener http://quaid.fedorapeople.org AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mmcgrath at redhat.com Fri Dec 5 04:24:49 2008 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 22:24:49 -0600 (CST) Subject: Fudcon + fedoratalk? Message-ID: We do actually have fedoratalk up and running this time. Is this something that would be useful to people or a distraction? There's logistical issues (like mic's) to be worked out. But if we're going to be in rooms that have those fancy conference call phones or mics or something. Its possible for us to use those technologies. Thoughts? -Mike From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Dec 5 04:34:50 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 19:34:50 -0900 Subject: Fudcon + fedoratalk? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <604aa7910812042034v1229ed9en40cec8aabf57f990@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 7:24 PM, Mike McGrath wrote: > Thoughts? I'd be interested in trying to use it as a remote attendee. Just as long as someone promises to be in the room with a sock puppet pretending to be me if I'm asking a question via the conference call system. -jef From aoliva at redhat.com Fri Dec 5 05:29:51 2008 From: aoliva at redhat.com (Alexandre Oliva) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2008 03:29:51 -0200 Subject: Policy on DST In-Reply-To: <20081203205906.GA14354@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> (Bill Nottingham's message of "Wed\, 3 Dec 2008 15\:59\:06 -0500") References: <20081203204856.GN495@localhost.localdomain> <20081203205906.GA14354@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Dec 3, 2008, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Paul W. Frields (stickster at gmail.com) said: >> Most of our contributor base observes some sort of DST, so we should >> simply set dates on which the schedule shifts automatically. We need >> not use USA standards for the date of the shifting. > Well, we'll annoy one hemisphere either way. But I'm for it. It's a choice between not annoying one hemisphere and annoying the other by variations of up to two hours over the year, or annoying everyone equally, although at different times of the year. Being in the Southern hemisphere, I feel the pain of not being able to allocate any other personal appointments on afternoons in which I have Red Hat meetings, because they may cover say 2-3pm at part of the year, 3-4pm at another (short) part of the year, and 4-5pm at yet another part of the year. So I understand the pain you're talking about when you're annoyed by a one-hour change. But considering that not all countries observe DST, even in the Northern Hemisphere, and those that do switch at different times, a large number of people will be inconvenienced no matter what you do. Should the pain be shared by all countries that observe DST, or should it be focused on those that depart from some arbitrary standard set elsewhere (country or Fedora)? I don't know. No solution is particularly fair, so I guess it's just a matter of optimization: minimizing the pain inflicted on contributors. Would it make sense to hold an election? -- Alexandre Oliva http://www.lsd.ic.unicamp.br/~oliva/ You must be the change you wish to see in the world. -- Gandhi Be Free! -- http://FSFLA.org/ FSF Latin America board member Free Software Evangelist Red Hat Brazil Compiler Engineer From stickster at gmail.com Fri Dec 5 12:53:19 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 07:53:19 -0500 Subject: Fudcon + fedoratalk? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20081205125319.GF12530@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 10:24:49PM -0600, Mike McGrath wrote: > We do actually have fedoratalk up and running this time. Is this > something that would be useful to people or a distraction? There's > logistical issues (like mic's) to be worked out. But if we're going to be > in rooms that have those fancy conference call phones or mics or > something. Its possible for us to use those technologies. > > Thoughts? I don't know if the MIT rooms have mics, but I will check on that today. A built-in laptop mic will be basically useless in a classroom configuration. We'd need either something coming from the lectern, or a large-diaphragm condenser mic placed somewhere central in the room, or a pair of dynamic mics (one for the speaker and one to be passed around the auidence). In either case, we then need something to get the mic signal to line level for a laptop input. More equipment, blearrgh. I can investigate some inexpensive equipment solutions like USB digital audio interfaces and mics. Then it's just a matter of finding budget for them. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From katzj at redhat.com Fri Dec 5 14:15:14 2008 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2008 09:15:14 -0500 Subject: Fudcon + fedoratalk? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1228486514.9414.1.camel@aglarond.local> On Thu, 2008-12-04 at 22:24 -0600, Mike McGrath wrote: > We do actually have fedoratalk up and running this time. Is this > something that would be useful to people or a distraction? There's > logistical issues (like mic's) to be worked out. But if we're going to be > in rooms that have those fancy conference call phones or mics or > something. Its possible for us to use those technologies. We're in classrooms -- not rooms with conference call equipment. And there's not really mics either Jeremy From mmcgrath at redhat.com Fri Dec 5 16:57:07 2008 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 10:57:07 -0600 (CST) Subject: Fudcon + fedoratalk? In-Reply-To: <1228486514.9414.1.camel@aglarond.local> References: <1228486514.9414.1.camel@aglarond.local> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Dec 2008, Jeremy Katz wrote: > On Thu, 2008-12-04 at 22:24 -0600, Mike McGrath wrote: > > We do actually have fedoratalk up and running this time. Is this > > something that would be useful to people or a distraction? There's > > logistical issues (like mic's) to be worked out. But if we're going to be > > in rooms that have those fancy conference call phones or mics or > > something. Its possible for us to use those technologies. > > We're in classrooms -- not rooms with conference call equipment. And > there's not really mics either > I was hoping we'd get lucky, we had the conference room speaker phones where I went in most of the rooms and all of the lecture halls IIRC but that did strike me as weird at the time :) above all though I don't want it to be a distraction to the actual FUDCon presenters. -Mike From stickster at gmail.com Fri Dec 5 18:14:27 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 13:14:27 -0500 Subject: Fudcon + fedoratalk? In-Reply-To: References: <1228486514.9414.1.camel@aglarond.local> Message-ID: <20081205181427.GE31988@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, Dec 05, 2008 at 10:57:07AM -0600, Mike McGrath wrote: > On Fri, 5 Dec 2008, Jeremy Katz wrote: > > > On Thu, 2008-12-04 at 22:24 -0600, Mike McGrath wrote: > > > We do actually have fedoratalk up and running this time. Is this > > > something that would be useful to people or a distraction? There's > > > logistical issues (like mic's) to be worked out. But if we're going to be > > > in rooms that have those fancy conference call phones or mics or > > > something. Its possible for us to use those technologies. > > > > We're in classrooms -- not rooms with conference call equipment. And > > there's not really mics either > > > > I was hoping we'd get lucky, we had the conference room speaker phones > where I went in most of the rooms and all of the lecture halls IIRC but > that did strike me as weird at the time :) above all though I don't want > it to be a distraction to the actual FUDCon presenters. I've asked the creative team inside Red Hat about this, but I doubt they have enough lavalier mics to be able to provide them for all the session rooms. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jwboyer at gmail.com Fri Dec 5 19:12:00 2008 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 14:12:00 -0500 Subject: Election Townhall meeting feedback Message-ID: <20081205191200.GC32621@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> Matt has requested some feedback on the townhall meetings that are being held for the various elections, so I thought I would start a thread. As a participant in 3 of these meetings now, I find them to be pretty useful. They give a good insight into how the various candidates think and communicate. And personally I found them to be fun to participate in. One comment John Rose pointed out was that some of the questions can be difficult to understand for the greater community that doesn't follow the on-goings of Fedora day in and day out. I can definitely see how that could be, and perhaps we could address that in the future by having the moderators put a bit of context or explanation on some of the question topics. I am quite curious to know if the audience found these to be useful at all. Also, for those that couldn't attend, were the IRC logs helpful to review? Do we need to do a better job of promoting these so more people attend, etc? I'd like to thank Matt for getting these organized and hope we can continue doing them in the future. josh From jonstanley at gmail.com Fri Dec 5 22:45:37 2008 From: jonstanley at gmail.com (Jon Stanley) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 17:45:37 -0500 Subject: Election Townhall meeting feedback In-Reply-To: <20081205191200.GC32621@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> References: <20081205191200.GC32621@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 2:12 PM, Josh Boyer wrote: > One comment John Rose pointed out was that some of the questions > can be difficult to understand for the greater community that > doesn't follow the on-goings of Fedora day in and day out. I can > definitely see how that could be, and perhaps we could address > that in the future by having the moderators put a bit of context > or explanation on some of the question topics. I talked to John a little more about this, and he makes a valid point that reference was made to recent meetings, that, unless you were there or follow the minutes very closely of the body being elected, you would have no clue about. For instance the secondary arch issue that FESCo took up just Wednesday, or the whole seeding of provenpackager. From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Dec 5 23:02:02 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2008 04:32:02 +0530 Subject: Election Townhall meeting feedback In-Reply-To: <20081205191200.GC32621@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> References: <20081205191200.GC32621@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: <4939B2EA.6030200@fedoraproject.org> Josh Boyer wrote: > Matt has requested some feedback on the townhall meetings that are > being held for the various elections, so I thought I would start > a thread. It would be useful, if we can have a round of Q&A on this mailing list along similar lines as well. IRC timings don't work out well for everyone. Rahul From jonstanley at gmail.com Sat Dec 6 00:21:34 2008 From: jonstanley at gmail.com (Jon Stanley) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 19:21:34 -0500 Subject: Election Townhall meeting feedback In-Reply-To: <4939B2EA.6030200@fedoraproject.org> References: <20081205191200.GC32621@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> <4939B2EA.6030200@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 6:02 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > It would be useful, if we can have a round of Q&A on this mailing list along > similar lines as well. IRC timings don't work out well for everyone. Ask away! From jwboyer at gmail.com Sat Dec 6 01:02:34 2008 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 20:02:34 -0500 Subject: Election Townhall meeting feedback In-Reply-To: References: <20081205191200.GC32621@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> <4939B2EA.6030200@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <20081206010234.GA13528@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> On Fri, Dec 05, 2008 at 07:21:34PM -0500, Jon Stanley wrote: >On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 6:02 PM, Rahul Sundaram > wrote: > >> It would be useful, if we can have a round of Q&A on this mailing list along >> similar lines as well. IRC timings don't work out well for everyone. > >Ask away! You can ask, sure. It won't get near the turn around time as an IRC meeting, but candidates can try. I do ask that people read the IRC logs of the townhall meetings so we don't have to just repeat ourselves. josh From dominik at greysector.net Sat Dec 6 12:42:19 2008 From: dominik at greysector.net (Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 13:42:19 +0100 Subject: Election Townhall meeting feedback In-Reply-To: <20081205191200.GC32621@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> References: <20081205191200.GC32621@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: <20081206124218.GA20740@mokona.greysector.net> On Friday, 05 December 2008 at 20:12, Josh Boyer wrote: > Matt has requested some feedback on the townhall meetings that are > being held for the various elections, so I thought I would start > a thread. > > As a participant in 3 of these meetings now, I find them to be > pretty useful. They give a good insight into how the various > candidates think and communicate. And personally I found them to > be fun to participate in. That was my impression as well, although I don't know how useful they were/will be to the general public, given that so few people attended them. I only hope that those who are interested will read the IRC logs. Regards, R. -- Fedora http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Rathann RPMFusion http://rpmfusion.org | MPlayer http://mplayerhq.hu "Faith manages." -- Delenn to Lennier in Babylon 5:"Confessions and Lamentations" From fugolini at fedoraproject.org Sat Dec 6 18:17:42 2008 From: fugolini at fedoraproject.org (Francesco Ugolini) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 19:17:42 +0100 Subject: Election Townhall meeting feedback In-Reply-To: <4939B2EA.6030200@fedoraproject.org> References: <20081205191200.GC32621@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> <4939B2EA.6030200@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: 2008/12/6 Rahul Sundaram : > Josh Boyer wrote: >> >> Matt has requested some feedback on the townhall meetings that are >> being held for the various elections, so I thought I would start >> a thread. > > It would be useful, if we can have a round of Q&A on this mailing list along > similar lines as well. IRC timings don't work out well for everyone. > > Rahul I totally agree with that proposal. Generally the idea and the organization model seems to work. I liked the attendance even if it wasn't so big, but I expected this. Finally, I want to thank you whoever spent their time organizing those ones: I'm sure everyone has learned something from this experience. Regards Francesco Ugolini From kanarip at kanarip.com Sat Dec 6 21:32:51 2008 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2008 22:32:51 +0100 Subject: Policy on DST In-Reply-To: <20081203204856.GN495@localhost.localdomain> References: <20081203204856.GN495@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <493AEF83.3000803@kanarip.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Paul W. Frields wrote: | Every once in a while there's a random annoyance that seems worth | bringing up and documenting for posterity. Hopefully this is one of | those times. | | In a nutshell: Does Fedora need a minimal policy for shifting the | schedule of the #fedora-meeting channel to account for DST? | (...snip...) IMHO, the one thing that everyone who lives in a timezone should know is where they are compared to UTC. Ergo, the meeting times should be set in UTC and enthusiasts and participants should account for DST. This also means that when a vote is out on what time (UTC) a meeting is to take place exactly, enthusiasts and participants need to take into account their local DST shiftings to see what time is most appropriate for them. - -Jeroen -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkk674MACgkQKN6f2pNCvwi2IACgvepane66hmmZTpEFPdqAmRPf kJAAnR2cuqxi9ZeHhly/FmqO0u6zHuJW =dv3/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nigjones at redhat.com Sun Dec 7 00:06:46 2008 From: nigjones at redhat.com (Nigel Jones) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2008 10:06:46 +1000 Subject: Fedora Elections - Important Information Message-ID: <1228608406.14039.16.camel@njones.bne.redhat.com> Hi Everyone, The elections for the Fedora Board, Fedora Engineering Steering Committee (FESCo) and the Fedora Ambassadors Steering Committee (FAmSCo) are now live (as of 0000 UTC on 7th December 2008) and will run until 2359 UTC on 20th December 2008. All groups have chosen to use the Range Voting method (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Range_voting). Ballots may be cast on the Fedora Elections System at https://admin.fedoraproject.org/voting. If this is the first time you've used the voting system, please refer to the Fedora Elections Guide, currently located at http://nigelj.fedorapeople.org/feg/. Fedora Board Election: ---------------------- This election, the Fedora Board is electing two candidates and will appoint another two members. Vacating the seats on the board this election are Matt Domsch, Jef Spaleta, Bill Nottingham and Karsten Wade. Christopher Aillon was announced as the board's first appointee with the second to be decided after the election. The candidates for this election, in no particular order are: Matt Domsch (mdomsch) Dimitris Glezos (glezos) Michael DeHaan (mpdehaan) Josh Boyer (jwb) David Cantrell (dcantrell) Jon Stanley (jds2001) Bill Nottingham (notting) To vote, you must have a signed Contributor License Agreement (CLA). Vote Here: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/voting/about/boardf11 Townhall Logs: * http://mdomsch.fedorapeople.org/fedora-townhalls/2008-12-04-Board/fedora-townhall.2008-12-04.log.html * http://mdomsch.fedorapeople.org/fedora-townhalls/2008-12-05-Board/fedora-townhall.2008-12-05.log.html Fedora Engineering Steering Committee Election: ----------------------------------------------- For this election, FESCo will be electing four candidates to sit on the committee. Vacating the seats on FESCo this election are Jarod Wilson, Josh Boyer, Karsten Hopp, and Jon Stanley. The candidates for this election, in no particular order are: Josh Boyer (jwb) Dan Hor?k (sharkcz) Dominik Mierzejewski (rathann) Jon Stanley (jds2001) Jarod Wilson (jwilson) To vote, you must have a signed Contributor License Agreement (CLA) and be a member of any other group. Vote Here: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/voting/about/fescof11 Townhall Log: * http://mdomsch.fedorapeople.org/fedora-townhalls/2008-12-05-FESCo/fedora-townhall.2008-12-05.log.html Fedora Ambassadors Steering Committee Election: ----------------------------------------------- This election FAmSCo will be electing all 7 seats on the committee. These seats were previously held by Rodrigo Padula de Oliveira, Thomas Canniot, Francesco Ugolini, Fabian Affolter, Jeffrey Tadlock, Andreas Rau and John Babich. The candidates for this election, in no particular order are: Sandro Mathys (red_alert) Rodrigo Padula (RodrigoPadula) Joerg Simon (kital) Max Spevack (spevack) Larry Cafiero (lcafiero) Hector Gonzalez (hagr182) Susmit Shannigrahi (susmit) Francesco Ugolini (fugolini) David Nalley (ke4qqq) Thomas Canniot (MrTom) To vote, you must be a member of the ambassadors group in the Fedora Account System. Vote Here: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/voting/about/famscof11 Townhall Log: * http://mdomsch.fedorapeople.org/fedora-townhalls/2008-12-06-FAMSCo/fedora-townhall.2008-12-06.log.html *** I'd also like to point out the following from Paul Frields' announcement for the June 2008 Board Election: "I'd like everyone voting to remember that this isn't a popularity contest, or a reward system. Think about how you'd like to Board to look when you vote, the same way you think about how you'd like any government body to look when you cast votes for their elections. We have a lot of worthy candidates on this list, and you should pick the ones that you feel will best represent you in advancing the Fedora Project. This is one of numerous ways in which our community makes decisions about the leadership of Fedora. Your vote counts, and I hope you take advantage of it." *** This advice is still valid, not just for the Fedora Board election but for all three elections. Regards, Nigel Jones Fedora Election Admin From fedora at leemhuis.info Sun Dec 7 10:58:25 2008 From: fedora at leemhuis.info (Thorsten Leemhuis) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2008 11:58:25 +0100 Subject: Fedora Elections - Important Information In-Reply-To: <1228608406.14039.16.camel@njones.bne.redhat.com> References: <1228608406.14039.16.camel@njones.bne.redhat.com> Message-ID: <493BAC51.4020505@leemhuis.info> On 07.12.2008 01:06, Nigel Jones wrote: > [...] > Fedora Engineering Steering Committee Election: > ----------------------------------------------- > For this election, FESCo will be electing four candidates to sit on the > committee. > > [...] It IMHO would have been extremely helpful for proper range voting if the number of open seats would have been mentioned on https://admin.fedoraproject.org/voting/vote/fescof11 For the Board that actually the case. Or did I somehow didn't spot that information on the above page? CU knurd From fedora at leemhuis.info Sun Dec 7 12:50:03 2008 From: fedora at leemhuis.info (Thorsten Leemhuis) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2008 13:50:03 +0100 Subject: Election Townhall meeting feedback In-Reply-To: References: <20081205191200.GC32621@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> <4939B2EA.6030200@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <493BC67B.7020903@leemhuis.info> On 06.12.2008 19:17, Francesco Ugolini wrote: > 2008/12/6 Rahul Sundaram : >> Josh Boyer wrote: >>> Matt has requested some feedback on the townhall meetings that are >>> being held for the various elections, so I thought I would start >>> a thread. >> It would be useful, if we can have a round of Q&A on this mailing list along >> similar lines as well. IRC timings don't work out well for everyone. > I totally agree with that proposal. I'd actually go one step further and say a "Q&A via mail" is even more important then a townhall meeting on IRC, as that is more structured and makes it easier for the voters to read than a IRC log. The way it IMHO should work is something like this: Ask people to send in a few questions (question like those that were asked on IRC), collect them, merge dupes, pick the most important ones (5 to 8 maybe) and let each nominee answer those questions (there needs to be a lenght limit to make sure everybody can read all answers in an acceptable timeframe). A townhall meeting in addition then might make sense to clarify things, but clarifying things via email could work as well. Cu knurd From inode0 at gmail.com Mon Dec 8 04:07:04 2008 From: inode0 at gmail.com (inode0) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 22:07:04 -0600 Subject: Election Townhall meeting feedback In-Reply-To: <20081205191200.GC32621@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> References: <20081205191200.GC32621@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 1:12 PM, Josh Boyer wrote: > Matt has requested some feedback on the townhall meetings that are > being held for the various elections, so I thought I would start > a thread. > > As a participant in 3 of these meetings now, I find them to be > pretty useful. They give a good insight into how the various > candidates think and communicate. And personally I found them to > be fun to participate in. I made it to all four of the town halls and participated in them in various other ways. Overall I was tremendously pleased with them all. It might be good to take a step back and recall the purpose of them. Since Fedora elections differ from many other elections in that they aren't so heavily defined by current events/issues (although they can be at times I imagine) these were fundamentally an opportunity for the masses of Fedora users and contributors to meet the candidates, get to know them a little bit, see how they think and discuss questions put to them, see how they interact with their peers. For the audience I think the town hall served these ends very well. > One comment John Rose pointed out was that some of the questions > can be difficult to understand for the greater community that > doesn't follow the on-goings of Fedora day in and day out. I can > definitely see how that could be, and perhaps we could address > that in the future by having the moderators put a bit of context > or explanation on some of the question topics. I made this remark in particular about the FESCo town hall and in retrospect I still think it only really applies to FESCo. I think the nature of the work FESCo does makes understanding it a bit less accessible to those not very involved in it. In addition to some moderator context I think perhaps having the candidates keep in mind that their audience will contain folks not well schooled in what happened in last week's meeting and such would help. They can add context so the audience can understand better too. The role of the moderator I think is one we should give some thought to for next time. I received a suggestion, which I think is a good suggestion, that perhaps the moderator should start off the town hall with a small number of questions to get things going and to cover a few important matters before opening up the floor to the audience. That suggestion I think was motivated by getting a smooth flow to the event before the shotgun barrage of questions begin. > I am quite curious to know if the audience found these to be > useful at all. Also, for those that couldn't attend, were the IRC > logs helpful to review? Do we need to do a better job of > promoting these so more people attend, etc? Most of the feedback I have received suggests that the audience did find them useful and that votes were definitely changed as a result. I've told the board that in the past I did not vote in part because I did not feel capable of making meaningful discriminations between candidates I knew almost entirely from reputation. Spending two hours with the board candidates definitely changed my feelings of uneasiness in this regard. I do have a couple of organizational suggestions for the future. First as someone who attended all four I can say unequivocally that the rapid nature of having four of these in such a short time period was exhausting. Spreading them out a bit more in the future I think would be nice. Second, I understand that it is difficult for everyone to attend them but I think it is critically important for all the candidates to be present. My recollection is, and I apologize if I it is incorrect, that only FESCo had every candidate present. My hat is off to them for that. Lastly, I hope we can do more to get voters to attend the town halls in real time. While reading the log I'm sure will be interesting and useful you cannot get the full experience of the town hall that way. You miss conversations in the public channel among audience members as well as candidates and the after event opportunity to talk to the candidates as well. > I'd like to thank Matt for getting these organized and hope we > can continue doing them in the future. A really big thank you to Matt for a job well done. I'd like to thank everyone who took the time to honor someone's contributions by nominating them as well. The many thoughtful nominations were obviously meaningful and rewarding to the recipients of them, and in our shared culture of trust the impact of these nominations reaches far beyond them. Good luck to all the candidates. John From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Dec 9 18:14:11 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 23:44:11 +0530 Subject: Fedora Remix - Clarification Message-ID: <493EB573.7000109@fedoraproject.org> Hi, Let's say I am creating a local language remix of Fedora completely outside of the usual spin process hosted externally to Fedora Project, can I call it, Fedora Foo Remix instead of, Foo - Fedora Remix? Rahul From stickster at gmail.com Tue Dec 9 18:51:17 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 13:51:17 -0500 Subject: Fedora Remix - Clarification In-Reply-To: <493EB573.7000109@fedoraproject.org> References: <493EB573.7000109@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <20081209185117.GD18713@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, Dec 09, 2008 at 11:44:11PM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi, > > Let's say I am creating a local language remix of Fedora completely > outside of the usual spin process hosted externally to Fedora Project, > can I call it, Fedora Foo Remix instead of, Foo - Fedora Remix? No. You can refer to "Foo" as "Fedora Remix" but you may not interrupt the secondary mark, which is a single unit of text. Perhaps I need to add guidance to this effect in the document? I'll ask Legal about that. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Dec 9 18:59:54 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 00:29:54 +0530 Subject: Fedora Remix - Clarification In-Reply-To: <20081209185117.GD18713@localhost.localdomain> References: <493EB573.7000109@fedoraproject.org> <20081209185117.GD18713@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <493EC02A.1010100@fedoraproject.org> Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Tue, Dec 09, 2008 at 11:44:11PM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Let's say I am creating a local language remix of Fedora completely >> outside of the usual spin process hosted externally to Fedora Project, >> can I call it, Fedora Foo Remix instead of, Foo - Fedora Remix? > > No. You can refer to "Foo" as "Fedora Remix" but you may not > interrupt the secondary mark, which is a single unit of text. Perhaps > I need to add guidance to this effect in the document? I'll ask Legal > about that. Well, in my example, say Fedora Hindi Remix would make much more sense than Hindi - Fedora Remix or else I am forced to create a new name for every local language remix I create which is insane considering the number of local languages in and around my place. Can you consider allow ing this or is there other suggestions? Rahul From chris at tylers.info Tue Dec 9 19:23:34 2008 From: chris at tylers.info (Chris Tyler) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 14:23:34 -0500 Subject: Fedora Remix - Clarification In-Reply-To: <493EC02A.1010100@fedoraproject.org> References: <493EB573.7000109@fedoraproject.org> <20081209185117.GD18713@localhost.localdomain> <493EC02A.1010100@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1228850614.18448.15.camel@localhost6.localdomain6> On Wed, 2008-12-10 at 00:29 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > Well, in my example, say Fedora Hindi Remix would make much more sense > than Hindi - Fedora Remix or else I am forced to create a new name for > every local language remix I create which is insane considering the > number of local languages in and around my place. Can you consider allow > ing this or is there other suggestions? > > Rahul Rahul, If you want to call it "Fedora", then make it official. There's no reason why you can't produce the "Fedora Hindi Spin". But if it's not pure Fedora, then give it your own name, and call it "FooDisto Hindi - Fedora Remix". -Chris From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Dec 9 20:12:23 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 01:42:23 +0530 Subject: Fedora Remix - Clarification In-Reply-To: <1228850614.18448.15.camel@localhost6.localdomain6> References: <493EB573.7000109@fedoraproject.org> <20081209185117.GD18713@localhost.localdomain> <493EC02A.1010100@fedoraproject.org> <1228850614.18448.15.camel@localhost6.localdomain6> Message-ID: <493ED127.7080009@fedoraproject.org> Chris Tyler wrote: > Rahul, > > If you want to call it "Fedora", then make it official. Oh, believe me. I tried. I got one of the dozen spins hosted at http://spins.fedoraproject.org and then it was stopped because of lack of space or it was considered too much effort for composing all the different variants or some much. I didn't have the time or energy to go through the process again for Fedora 10. Now there are folks who are looking to create local language spins, I think waiting for Fedora 11 (since I can't do it out of band, officially) and going through the same ordeal is too much overhead especially since it is going to be bittorrent only and that means no download for quite a few people who only have bandwidth at the office and corporate policy says no bittorrent. The only reason was for lack of space or bandwidth to host them. Now that I have some of that, it is just much easier to bypass the official process and do it elsewhere. If I have to invent a dozen odd names to satisfy the trademark requirements, I will but it just seems much more saner to allow this within the Fedora remix guidelines. It makes my work easier and makes it easier to give credit to Fedora. Rahul From stickster at gmail.com Tue Dec 9 20:50:25 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 15:50:25 -0500 Subject: Fedora Remix - Clarification In-Reply-To: <493EC02A.1010100@fedoraproject.org> References: <493EB573.7000109@fedoraproject.org> <20081209185117.GD18713@localhost.localdomain> <493EC02A.1010100@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <20081209205025.GF18713@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 12:29:54AM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Paul W. Frields wrote: >> On Tue, Dec 09, 2008 at 11:44:11PM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> Let's say I am creating a local language remix of Fedora completely >>> outside of the usual spin process hosted externally to Fedora >>> Project, can I call it, Fedora Foo Remix instead of, Foo - Fedora >>> Remix? >> >> No. You can refer to "Foo" as "Fedora Remix" but you may not >> interrupt the secondary mark, which is a single unit of text. Perhaps >> I need to add guidance to this effect in the document? I'll ask Legal >> about that. > > Well, in my example, say Fedora Hindi Remix would make much more sense > than Hindi - Fedora Remix or else I am forced to create a new name for > every local language remix I create which is insane considering the > number of local languages in and around my place. Can you consider allow > ing this or is there other suggestions? What's wrong with "Fedora Remix - Hindi" or "Hindi Fedora Remix"? Those are both perfectly descriptive. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Dec 9 21:00:01 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 02:30:01 +0530 Subject: Fedora Remix - Clarification In-Reply-To: <20081209205025.GF18713@localhost.localdomain> References: <493EB573.7000109@fedoraproject.org> <20081209185117.GD18713@localhost.localdomain> <493EC02A.1010100@fedoraproject.org> <20081209205025.GF18713@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <493EDC51.8020208@fedoraproject.org> Paul W. Frields wrote: > What's wrong with "Fedora Remix - Hindi" or "Hindi Fedora Remix"? > Those are both perfectly descriptive. These are allowed then? I take it that anything except inserting words in between Fedora and Remix is allowed but a few examples of what is and what is not allowed in the guidelines would be helpful. Rahul From tcallawa at redhat.com Tue Dec 9 21:34:12 2008 From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom "spot" Callaway) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 16:34:12 -0500 Subject: Fedora Remix - Clarification In-Reply-To: <493EDC51.8020208@fedoraproject.org> References: <493EB573.7000109@fedoraproject.org> <20081209185117.GD18713@localhost.localdomain> <493EC02A.1010100@fedoraproject.org> <20081209205025.GF18713@localhost.localdomain> <493EDC51.8020208@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1228858452.3553.33.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2008-12-10 at 02:30 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Paul W. Frields wrote: > > > What's wrong with "Fedora Remix - Hindi" or "Hindi Fedora Remix"? > > Those are both perfectly descriptive. > > These are allowed then? I take it that anything except inserting words > in between Fedora and Remix is allowed but a few examples of what is and > what is not allowed in the guidelines would be helpful. Basically, as long as "Fedora Remix" remains intact, you're fine. So before or after, yes. Inbetween, no. ~spot From stickster at gmail.com Tue Dec 9 21:52:07 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 16:52:07 -0500 Subject: Fedora Remix - Clarification In-Reply-To: <493EDC51.8020208@fedoraproject.org> References: <493EB573.7000109@fedoraproject.org> <20081209185117.GD18713@localhost.localdomain> <493EC02A.1010100@fedoraproject.org> <20081209205025.GF18713@localhost.localdomain> <493EDC51.8020208@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <20081209214532.GH18713@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 02:30:01AM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Paul W. Frields wrote: > >> What's wrong with "Fedora Remix - Hindi" or "Hindi Fedora Remix"? >> Those are both perfectly descriptive. > > These are allowed then? I take it that anything except inserting words > in between Fedora and Remix is allowed but a few examples of what is and > what is not allowed in the guidelines would be helpful. It's hard for me to imagine what kinds of rational uses wouldn't be allowed that wouldn't fall into one of the general guidelines (like disparaging use, or misspellings). The latest draft of the trademark guidelines -- being reviewed by Red Hat Legal -- makes it more clear that this is a unit of text. The words "Fedora Remix" and the Fedora Remix design mark were created to make sure that people doing remixes could point interested people back to Fedora, and simultaneously benefit from the Fedora brand's value. Uses like "FroBozz 10, a Fedora Remix" or "Fedora Remix - Blagnasticator!" are precisely what we envisioned. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Dec 10 15:52:53 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 07:52:53 -0800 Subject: Fedora Remix - Clarification In-Reply-To: <493ED127.7080009@fedoraproject.org> References: <493EB573.7000109@fedoraproject.org> <20081209185117.GD18713@localhost.localdomain> <493EC02A.1010100@fedoraproject.org> <1228850614.18448.15.camel@localhost6.localdomain6> <493ED127.7080009@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <20081210155253.GY9280@calliope.phig.org> On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 01:42:23AM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Chris Tyler wrote: > >> Rahul, >> >> If you want to call it "Fedora", then make it official. > > Oh, believe me. I tried. I got one of the dozen spins hosted at > http://spins.fedoraproject.org and then it was stopped because of lack > of space or it was considered too much effort for composing all the > different variants or some much. I'm confused on something here. Can't you create the "Fedora Hindi Spin" if it otherwise meets the spin guidelines, then host it where you would a Fedora Remix? I don't recall that spins are required to be hosted from spin.fedoraproject.org, it's more a matter of what packages are in the composition. - Karsten -- Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener http://quaid.fedorapeople.org AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bkearney at redhat.com Wed Dec 10 15:52:05 2008 From: bkearney at redhat.com (Bryan Kearney) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 10:52:05 -0500 Subject: Fedora Remix - Clarification In-Reply-To: <20081210155253.GY9280@calliope.phig.org> References: <493EB573.7000109@fedoraproject.org> <20081209185117.GD18713@localhost.localdomain> <493EC02A.1010100@fedoraproject.org> <1228850614.18448.15.camel@localhost6.localdomain6> <493ED127.7080009@fedoraproject.org> <20081210155253.GY9280@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <493FE5A5.7060808@redhat.com> Karsten Wade wrote: > On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 01:42:23AM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> Chris Tyler wrote: >> >>> Rahul, >>> >>> If you want to call it "Fedora", then make it official. >> Oh, believe me. I tried. I got one of the dozen spins hosted at >> http://spins.fedoraproject.org and then it was stopped because of lack >> of space or it was considered too much effort for composing all the >> different variants or some much. > > I'm confused on something here. > > Can't you create the "Fedora Hindi Spin" if it otherwise meets the > spin guidelines, then host it where you would a Fedora Remix? > > I don't recall that spins are required to be hosted from > spin.fedoraproject.org, it's more a matter of what packages are in the > composition. > > - Karsten I believe it to be a matter of policy. If the board allows Karsten's House of Spins to host a spin with a fedora mark, they can. And you could call it fedora. Since the expectation is that you do not get hosted in the spin repo without the mark, and that they probably will not grant a mark to KHoS then it will seem as if you are required to be hosted from spin.fedoraproject.org. -- bk From sebastian at when.com Wed Dec 10 21:03:10 2008 From: sebastian at when.com (Sebastian Dziallas) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 22:03:10 +0100 Subject: Fedora Remix - Clarification In-Reply-To: <20081210155253.GY9280@calliope.phig.org> References: <493EB573.7000109@fedoraproject.org> <20081209185117.GD18713@localhost.localdomain> <493EC02A.1010100@fedoraproject.org> <1228850614.18448.15.camel@localhost6.localdomain6> <493ED127.7080009@fedoraproject.org> <20081210155253.GY9280@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <49402E8E.6070204@when.com> Karsten Wade wrote: > On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 01:42:23AM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> Chris Tyler wrote: >> >>> Rahul, >>> >>> If you want to call it "Fedora", then make it official. >> Oh, believe me. I tried. I got one of the dozen spins hosted at >> http://spins.fedoraproject.org and then it was stopped because of lack >> of space or it was considered too much effort for composing all the >> different variants or some much. > > I'm confused on something here. > > Can't you create the "Fedora Hindi Spin" if it otherwise meets the > spin guidelines, then host it where you would a Fedora Remix? > > I don't recall that spins are required to be hosted from > spin.fedoraproject.org, it's more a matter of what packages are in the > composition. > > - Karsten Well, I'm not sure if I got it correctly, but as far as I understood the policies, you need... * Spin SIG's approval to get your kickstart file into the GIT repo * Board's approval to be able to use the Fedora trademark, which requires you to only use software that is in Fedora * Rel-Eng's approval, which includes hosting on spins.fp.o and the release of the spin together with a specific version of Fedora, so that you can e.g. make it into the release notes or so From my understanding, one should be able to get Spin SIG's approval (for the technical side) and board's approval (for the legal / trademark side) and host the spin then somewhere else, without having rel-eng's approval. That way, you should be able to call it "Fedora [Something] Spin" without having it hosted on spins.fp.o... But that's just how I got it. Might be wrong, though. --Sebastian From sebastian at when.com Wed Dec 10 21:03:10 2008 From: sebastian at when.com (Sebastian Dziallas) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 22:03:10 +0100 Subject: Fedora Remix - Clarification In-Reply-To: <20081210155253.GY9280@calliope.phig.org> References: <493EB573.7000109@fedoraproject.org> <20081209185117.GD18713@localhost.localdomain> <493EC02A.1010100@fedoraproject.org> <1228850614.18448.15.camel@localhost6.localdomain6> <493ED127.7080009@fedoraproject.org> <20081210155253.GY9280@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <49402E8E.6070204@when.com> Karsten Wade wrote: > On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 01:42:23AM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> Chris Tyler wrote: >> >>> Rahul, >>> >>> If you want to call it "Fedora", then make it official. >> Oh, believe me. I tried. I got one of the dozen spins hosted at >> http://spins.fedoraproject.org and then it was stopped because of lack >> of space or it was considered too much effort for composing all the >> different variants or some much. > > I'm confused on something here. > > Can't you create the "Fedora Hindi Spin" if it otherwise meets the > spin guidelines, then host it where you would a Fedora Remix? > > I don't recall that spins are required to be hosted from > spin.fedoraproject.org, it's more a matter of what packages are in the > composition. > > - Karsten Well, I'm not sure if I got it correctly, but as far as I understood the policies, you need... * Spin SIG's approval to get your kickstart file into the GIT repo * Board's approval to be able to use the Fedora trademark, which requires you to only use software that is in Fedora * Rel-Eng's approval, which includes hosting on spins.fp.o and the release of the spin together with a specific version of Fedora, so that you can e.g. make it into the release notes or so From my understanding, one should be able to get Spin SIG's approval (for the technical side) and board's approval (for the legal / trademark side) and host the spin then somewhere else, without having rel-eng's approval. That way, you should be able to call it "Fedora [Something] Spin" without having it hosted on spins.fp.o... But that's just how I got it. Might be wrong, though. --Sebastian From chris at tylers.info Thu Dec 11 15:45:29 2008 From: chris at tylers.info (Chris Tyler) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 10:45:29 -0500 Subject: Call for A/V volunteers and equipment - FUDConF11 Message-ID: <1229010329.26333.6.camel@localhost6.localdomain6> I'm looking for a few good folks to volunteer to help with A/V (streaming and recording) and to loan suitable equipment for the barcamp day of FUDConF11 (January 10/2009). If you are coming to FUDConF11 and are willing to help with A/V or are willing to loan any of the following, please let me know: * lav (clip-on) or headset mics, especially wireless * camcorder * laptop for recording or streaming Clint Savage has kindly agreed to bring a mixer and mics, and Matt Domsch and I are bringing camcorders. The current plan is to try and stream one room of audio (and maybe video) and record the other rooms for later posting. Thanks!-- -Chris From lyos.gemininorezel at gmail.com Thu Dec 11 16:59:44 2008 From: lyos.gemininorezel at gmail.com (Lyos Gemini Norezel) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 11:59:44 -0500 Subject: Policy on DST In-Reply-To: <20081203204856.GN495@localhost.localdomain> References: <20081203204856.GN495@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <49414700.4020000@gmail.com> Paul W. Frields wrote: > Every once in a while there's a random annoyance that seems worth > bringing up and documenting for posterity. Hopefully this is one of > those times. > > In a nutshell: Does Fedora need a minimal policy for shifting the > schedule of the #fedora-meeting channel to account for DST? > > Sticking with UTC sounds simple. It's tempting to just use the geek > perspective and say that's the standard, but this standard causes > actual problems for humans, who govern their lives by local clocks. > Moving meeting times back and forth in local time during the year > seems arbitrary, and can create new conflicts that were carefully > negotiated months before. That's a barrier, and therefore my and the > Board's job to assess and remove if possible. > > Most of our contributor base observes some sort of DST, so we should > simply set dates on which the schedule shifts automatically. We need > not use USA standards for the date of the shifting. > > Practically speaking, the effect is that the meeting that happens at > 11:00 local time during DST stays at 11:00 local time when DST ends, > and vice versa. That's much easier on humans than dickering around > with UTC, especially when the tools we use for tracking our time > already have the built-in capacity to change over from DST to non-DST. > > Why bring this up? Take for example a Fedora team that meets in the > hour between two other meetings in the channel. The prior meeting > moves its schedule in UTC (to stay at the same local time) and the > following one does not, and thus shifts earlier by an hour when DST > ends. Suddenly there's a conflict. > > We could leave this up to individual teams to resolve when this > happens, but wouldn't it be easier to just change one wiki page twice > a year? > > And no, the decongestants haven't worn off yet, thanks for asking. ;-) > I know I'm late on this one... but... Why not just modify the page itself to allow the user to select the time zone/dst settings, if they choose? The table could be, fairly simply, modified to recalculate times based on the time zone/DST selection... and a column could be added showing the DST difference. ie.: Group Time/Date DST Time/Date etc... This would highlight problem areas... and allow the groups to select an alternate time to compensate for the DST issues. I'm not very familiar with Javascript and the like... but I know such things can be done... Would this not solve much of the issues you raise? Lyos Gemini Norezel From notting at redhat.com Thu Dec 11 17:45:59 2008 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 12:45:59 -0500 Subject: Policy on DST In-Reply-To: <49414700.4020000@gmail.com> References: <20081203204856.GN495@localhost.localdomain> <49414700.4020000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081211174559.GA3518@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Lyos Gemini Norezel (lyos.gemininorezel at gmail.com) said: > Why not just modify the page itself to allow the user to select the time > zone/dst settings, if they choose? > The table could be, fairly simply, modified to recalculate times based > on the time zone/DST selection... and a column could be added showing > the DST difference. > > ie.: > Group Time/Date DST Time/Date etc... > > This would highlight problem areas... and allow the groups to select an > alternate time to compensate for the DST issues. My understanding is that while a page like this could be done, it would mean that the meeting page could no longer be on the wiki, nor edited freely. Whether that's a dealbreaker, I don't know. Bill From lyos.gemininorezel at gmail.com Thu Dec 11 18:39:03 2008 From: lyos.gemininorezel at gmail.com (Lyos Gemini Norezel) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:39:03 -0500 Subject: Policy on DST In-Reply-To: <20081211174559.GA3518@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <20081203204856.GN495@localhost.localdomain> <49414700.4020000@gmail.com> <20081211174559.GA3518@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <49415E47.4010806@gmail.com> Bill Nottingham wrote: > Lyos Gemini Norezel (lyos.gemininorezel at gmail.com) said: > >> Why not just modify the page itself to allow the user to select the time >> zone/dst settings, if they choose? >> The table could be, fairly simply, modified to recalculate times based >> on the time zone/DST selection... and a column could be added showing >> the DST difference. >> >> ie.: >> Group Time/Date DST Time/Date etc... >> >> This would highlight problem areas... and allow the groups to select an >> alternate time to compensate for the DST issues. >> > > My understanding is that while a page like this could be done, it > would mean that the meeting page could no longer be on the wiki, > nor edited freely. > > Whether that's a dealbreaker, I don't know. > > Bill > I don't see why not (wiki edited freely)? Surely the table could have those fields set as variables? Maybe I'm wrong... but setting a table w/variables on wiki shouldn't be any harder to modify than any other page of the wiki. Lyos Gemini Norezel -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poelstra at redhat.com Fri Dec 12 00:39:11 2008 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 16:39:11 -0800 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2008-12-09 Message-ID: <4941B2AF.6050904@redhat.com> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/Meetings/2008-12-09 == Roll Call == Attendees: John Poelstra, Paul Frields, Bill Nottingham, Seth Vidal, Karsten Wade, Chris Tyler, Spot Callaway, Jesse Keating, Matt Domsch, Jef Spaleta Regrets: Harald Hoyer == Fedora 11 Naming == * https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Name_suggestions_for_Fedora_11 * Submissions are closed * In order to not overburden Red Hat legal department the Board will select a subset of entries * Board needs to send a list to legal by December 15, 2008 * Receive list back from legal by January 2, 2009 == Brainstorming FUDCon Fedora 11 External Audio Options == * streaming audio or video * could someone at MIT Television help? * one central server for streaming and use laptops in individual sessions * potential problems *# enough bandwidth to get to fedora talk *# enough hardware * use IRC for feedback loop to livestream * what about targeting one or two rooms to pilot the live stream ** do well in one room * would need to create a standard setup guide so it is easy * setup in advance, preferably the day before so time isn't wasted in individual sessions trying to get things to work * would to designate people in each room to watch over equipment * Plan of attack: *# Paul Frields will try to make contact with MIT TV *# Chris Tyler to send out email to various fedora lists soliciting help and hardware from people attending--clip on microphones or video cameras == FUDCon Update == * Planning is on track with Paul the organization of everything * For people arriving before Friday, January 9, 2009, it might be good to have a meeting place for: "I'm here please put me to work place" * Most of the critical help will be needed the week before and up until the event * Will have a couple ads running in the MIT newspaper advertising FUDCon == Fedora 8 Package Resigning == * Release Engineering requested Board decision on necessity of resigning Fedora 8 packages with end of life less than one month away * '''DECISION''': Board unanimously believes that Fedora 8 must be re-signed, as was originally communicated to the public. == Push of Defective Packages == * earlier this week a broken dbus package update was pushed resulting in non-functioning systems * The board would like to see tools and processes that lower the risk of this problem recurring. * '''ACTIONS:'''Jesse is volunteering to lead a cross group effort involving QA, Infrastructure, Release Engineering, and tools developers (Seth Vidal, etc.) == Post Election Red Hat Board Appointments == * Short discussion about candidates under consideration From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Dec 12 11:48:46 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 17:18:46 +0530 Subject: Fedora Remix - Clarification In-Reply-To: <20081210155253.GY9280@calliope.phig.org> References: <493EB573.7000109@fedoraproject.org> <20081209185117.GD18713@localhost.localdomain> <493EC02A.1010100@fedoraproject.org> <1228850614.18448.15.camel@localhost6.localdomain6> <493ED127.7080009@fedoraproject.org> <20081210155253.GY9280@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <49424F9E.1000907@fedoraproject.org> Karsten Wade wrote: > On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 01:42:23AM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> Chris Tyler wrote: >> >>> Rahul, >>> >>> If you want to call it "Fedora", then make it official. >> Oh, believe me. I tried. I got one of the dozen spins hosted at >> http://spins.fedoraproject.org and then it was stopped because of lack >> of space or it was considered too much effort for composing all the >> different variants or some much. > > I'm confused on something here. > > Can't you create the "Fedora Hindi Spin" if it otherwise meets the > spin guidelines, then host it where you would a Fedora Remix? If I understand correctly, the current practise is not to allow out of sync spin releases. I don't see a way to do a new Fedora 10 spin now and have to wait for Fedora 11. Other than that,for this to really work, the advantage of getting a work as Fedora branded has to overweigh the overhead introduced by the process and new uncertainties everytime. About a dozen localized spins were approved by both Fedora Board and rel-eng and the process was followed as it existed then during Fedora 8 development. Only one spin got hosted. Instead, if I adopt the secondary brand, I have a bit more control and assurance that the work I put in, doesn't get wasted. Rahul From foss.mailinglists at gmail.com Fri Dec 12 12:18:06 2008 From: foss.mailinglists at gmail.com (Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 17:48:06 +0530 Subject: Fedora Remix - Clarification In-Reply-To: <20081209205025.GF18713@localhost.localdomain> References: <493EB573.7000109@fedoraproject.org> <20081209185117.GD18713@localhost.localdomain> <493EC02A.1010100@fedoraproject.org> <20081209205025.GF18713@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <35586fc00812120418t15e6cc28y90fd4663ef27b84c@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 2:20 AM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > What's wrong with "Fedora Remix - Hindi" or "Hindi Fedora Remix"? > Those are both perfectly descriptive. I'd rather have the former than the latter. Sounds too much like what the local MTV Channel dishes out (in terms of song remixes) ~s -- http://www.gutenberg.net - Fine literature digitally re-published http://www.plos.org - Public Library of Science http://www.creativecommons.org - Flexible copyright for creative work From kwade at redhat.com Fri Dec 12 16:56:31 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 08:56:31 -0800 Subject: Policy on DST In-Reply-To: <49414700.4020000@gmail.com> References: <20081203204856.GN495@localhost.localdomain> <49414700.4020000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081212165631.GI4253@calliope.phig.org> On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 11:59:44AM -0500, Lyos Gemini Norezel wrote: > > > Why not just modify the page itself to allow the user to select the time > zone/dst settings, if they choose? > The table could be, fairly simply, modified to recalculate times based > on the time zone/DST selection... and a column could be added showing > the DST difference. I think this doesn't address the core problem, but please correct me if I'm wrong. For example, one set of teams choose a time standard that changes every six months, and another set of teams choose a time standard that is fixed. This creates possibilities for meeting room conflict whenever DST is encountered. We could have a DST channel and a UTC channel, but that doesn't resolve the issue of everyone already lurking in only one channel. - Karsten -- Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener http://quaid.fedorapeople.org AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lyos.gemininorezel at gmail.com Fri Dec 12 18:19:23 2008 From: lyos.gemininorezel at gmail.com (Lyos Gemini Norezel) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 13:19:23 -0500 Subject: Policy on DST In-Reply-To: <20081212165631.GI4253@calliope.phig.org> References: <20081203204856.GN495@localhost.localdomain> <49414700.4020000@gmail.com> <20081212165631.GI4253@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <4942AB2B.3050903@gmail.com> Karsten Wade wrote: > On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 11:59:44AM -0500, Lyos Gemini Norezel wrote: > I think this doesn't address the core problem, but please correct me > if I'm wrong. > > For example, one set of teams choose a time standard that changes > every six months, and another set of teams choose a time standard that > is fixed. This creates possibilities for meeting room conflict > whenever DST is encountered. > > We could have a DST channel and a UTC channel, but that doesn't > resolve the issue of everyone already lurking in only one channel. > > - Karsten > I don't think you understand the idea fully... Let's see if I can explain this accurately. Think of a spreadsheet... Using the existing table here: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meetings you add another column between 'Time in UTC' and 'Monday'... Label this column 'Time in $DST' (in this instance the variable '$DST' will represent the user selected timezone/DST settings)... Then set up the needed mathematics to calculate the time in the user's location. Once that is complete... you would need to setup additional mathematics that would allow the table to highlight other selections in the table that would conflict with the users chosen time during DST dates/times. This will allow the user to select a different time during DST. This will allow the users to actually SEE problem areas and resolve the issues themselves. Mind you... this mess is only needed for those who do not understand UTC. Lyos Gemini Norezel From jwboyer at gmail.com Fri Dec 12 18:30:32 2008 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 13:30:32 -0500 Subject: Election Townhall meeting feedback In-Reply-To: <4939B2EA.6030200@fedoraproject.org> References: <20081205191200.GC32621@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> <4939B2EA.6030200@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <20081212183032.GA17110@zod.rchland.ibm.com> On Sat, Dec 06, 2008 at 04:32:02AM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Josh Boyer wrote: >> Matt has requested some feedback on the townhall meetings that are >> being held for the various elections, so I thought I would start >> a thread. > > It would be useful, if we can have a round of Q&A on this mailing list > along similar lines as well. IRC timings don't work out well for > everyone. I've noticed you (or anyone else) never asked a single question. Were you just proposing this for future elections? I ask because the election is still on-going, so questions are still relevant to _this_ election for those that haven't voted already. josh From chitlesh.goorah at gmail.com Sat Dec 13 11:48:02 2008 From: chitlesh.goorah at gmail.com (Chitlesh GOORAH) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 12:48:02 +0100 Subject: FEL not as torrent for F-111 Message-ID: <50baabb30812130348r5ba6c2eau8d4254ee6fe25c4b@mail.gmail.com> Hello there, After receiving many emails from universities (students and teachers) complaining they can't download FEL-10 livedvd torrent (universities block torrent), I'm here to ask you whether it is possible for F-11 to host the complete ISO (like the KDE spin) ? thank you, Chitlesh From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sat Dec 13 13:46:14 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 19:16:14 +0530 Subject: Election Townhall meeting feedback In-Reply-To: <20081212183032.GA17110@zod.rchland.ibm.com> References: <20081205191200.GC32621@yoda.jdub.homelinux.org> <4939B2EA.6030200@fedoraproject.org> <20081212183032.GA17110@zod.rchland.ibm.com> Message-ID: <4943BCA6.3030506@fedoraproject.org> Josh Boyer wrote: > On Sat, Dec 06, 2008 at 04:32:02AM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> Josh Boyer wrote: >>> Matt has requested some feedback on the townhall meetings that are >>> being held for the various elections, so I thought I would start >>> a thread. >> It would be useful, if we can have a round of Q&A on this mailing list >> along similar lines as well. IRC timings don't work out well for >> everyone. > > I've noticed you (or anyone else) never asked a single question. Were you > just proposing this for future elections? I ask because the election is > still on-going, so questions are still relevant to _this_ election for > those that haven't voted already. For this election, I had many good candidates (too many in fact) to choose from and I already voted without feeling the need to ask questions. The idea wasn't a personal request but more for people who weren't more familiar with the candidates or were concerned about some specific things. I thought, there should be a process for asking questions in the mailing list in addition to IRC to facilitate such discussions. I know, it is just a matter of dropping a mail to this mailing list or to the candidates offlist but unless explicitly specified (like in a link from the elections page), people might not be aware of the possibility or think it would be rude to do that or similar. Doing that, perhaps would help increase the number of people voting as well. Rahul From mmcgrath at redhat.com Sat Dec 13 17:53:50 2008 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 11:53:50 -0600 (CST) Subject: FEL not as torrent for F-111 In-Reply-To: <50baabb30812130348r5ba6c2eau8d4254ee6fe25c4b@mail.gmail.com> References: <50baabb30812130348r5ba6c2eau8d4254ee6fe25c4b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Dec 2008, Chitlesh GOORAH wrote: > Hello there, > > > After receiving many emails from universities (students and teachers) > complaining they can't download FEL-10 livedvd torrent (universities > block torrent), I'm here to ask you whether it is possible for F-11 to > host the complete ISO (like the KDE spin) ? > This will be easy soon. I'm in the process of coordinating an upgrade of our primary mirror system (its still a couple months out yet) but it will offer significantly more hosting options so we can do things like this. As long as things don't fall apart horribly, expect it way before F-11. -Mike From poelstra at redhat.com Thu Dec 18 00:46:28 2008 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 16:46:28 -0800 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2008-12-16 Message-ID: <49499D64.1020102@redhat.com> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/Meetings/2008-12-16 == Roll Call == * Attendees: John Poelstra, Paul Frields, Karsten Wade, Seth Vidal, Chris Tyler, Jesse Keating, Bill Nottingham, Harald Hoyer, Spot Callaway, Jef Spaleta * Regrets: Matt Domsch == Trademark Usage Request == * Request for trademark usage received by the board from a private individual to sell t-shirts and share some of the proceeds with Fedora * The board generally favors granting trademark approval to established community groups who are already working closely with the Fedora Project * '''DECISION''': The board denies this request ** Paul to respond to requester == Secondary Architecture Update == * provided by way of FESCo * s390--fully working Fedora 9 tree ** 2 kojis going (32bit and 64bit) * sparc--almost done with a Fedora 9 tree and then will focus on Fedora 10 ** building on koji * arm--last built Feodra 8 and starting process of building Fedora 10 ** not building with koji * ia64 no status--there does not appear to be a currently active community * inter-connect component for koji to connect other koji instances is being worked on by Dennis Gilmore ** delivery date of FUDCon Fedora 11 (2009-01-09) == Improving Quality of Updates == * Status from Jesse on working group he is leading * Seth, Bill and Jesse going over mashing process for rawhide and updates composes ** Trying to optimize as much as possible the push process so that once QA is added the time to release is not too long * Talk about QA at FUDCon--Jesse leading barcamp and hackfest session * Work is ongoing == Fedora 11 Naming == * List of names has been submitted to Red Hat Legal * Hope to have list back from legal by January 2, 2009 == FUDCon F11 Audio Feed == * Committed equipment so far ** three camcorders ** 8 channel mixer ** two or three microphones * Still need more microphones * Clint Savage has volunteered use of icecast streaming service * Will Attempt to record six tracks simultaneously * Choosing to stream audio only this time to limit bandwidth and make sure it is successful == Schedule For Next Meetings == * 2008-12-23--No Meeting * 2008-12-30--No Meeting * 2009-01-06 IRC meeting From stickster at gmail.com Thu Dec 18 21:25:53 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 16:25:53 -0500 Subject: F11 name roundup Message-ID: <20081218212553.GM5958@localhost.localdomain> Following is the list of names that Red Hat Legal has approved for our Fedora 11 name ballot: Indomitable Claypool Zampone Euryalus Duchess Blarney Leonidas Brasilia These names come directly from the list of suggestions provided by the community, as documented on the wiki page: https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=Name_suggestions_for_Fedora_11 I've put in an infrastructure ticket for the voting app to provide these names on a ballot at the appointed time: https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/1078 -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mspevack at redhat.com Fri Dec 19 14:39:46 2008 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 15:39:46 +0100 (CET) Subject: Fedora events in 2009 Message-ID: Hi all, I'd like to share some thoughts and proposals w/ the larger Fedora community for feedback. One of the things that the Community Architecture team is responsible for is, for lack of a better term, Fedora's discretionary budget. A large chunk of that budget is used for events (including travel and lodging subsidies), marketing, cd production, swag, etc. I'm going to talk first about how things are currently organized, and then mention what should stay the same, as well as the changes that I'd like to propose for 2009. THE WAY THINGS ARE: Currently, budget is divided into "FUDCon money" and "global events & swag" money. The FUDCon money is self-explanatory. One of the successes we had this past year was finally bringing FUDCon back outside North America, with a very successful event in Brno. Continued global growth of Fedora-centric events is an important goal for the future as well. The "global events and swag" money is managed by the Fedora Ambassadors Steering Committee (with my guidance), and spread among the local Ambassadors leaders around the world, who further allocate it based on the Fedora Events schedule, and based on tangible needs, like CDs, stickers, posters, shirts, etc. This local accountability model is working well around the world, and the hiring of Rodrigo Padula by Red Hat LATAM to (among other things) organize and lead the Fedora community in that region of the world will help even more. One of the other types of events that has grown and expanded this past year is the "Fedora Ambassador Day", first conceived by Gerold Kassube back in 2006. More on this later. WHAT NEEDS TO STAY THE SAME: The general method for distributing and spending the "global events and swag" is working well, and should continue, in my opinion. WHAT NEEDS TO CHANGE: In our quest for globalization, I don't want to fall into a trap of saying "there are four quarters in the year, and therefore we should do one FUDCon per quarter in a different region of the world". There are a few resons why I dont like this idea, including: * If a particular region of the world only gets one "premier" Fedora event each year, it puts a huge amount of pressure on that event to be everything to everyone. For instance, the event has to satisfy local Red Hat needs, it has to be at a time and place that maximizes local attendance. * The event risks being spread too thin. It trieds to address all of Fedora's many parts, and risks not getting sufficient depth in any of them. * It doesn't give a region a chance to build momentum, and string events together, creating stronger personal relationship, stronger community, and better results that directly benefit Fedora. * It allows only one "premier" Fedora event to be held per quarter. I think we can be more efficient than that. As such, I would like to do two things: (1) Think of the "FUDCon money" in the Fedora budget not as "FUDCon money", but rather as "money for premier, Fedora-centric events". (2) Create a second kind of Fedora-centric event that can complement FUDCons, and allow folks like me, Paul, or regional Ambassador leaders to create the sorts of events that are most useful to their region. To that end, I would like to re-brand the idea of "Fedora Ambassador Day" to "Fedora Activity Day" (still keeping the FAD acronym). The idea of the new FAD is to bring smaller groups of people in a region (I'm picturing 5-20) together for day-long or weekend-long sessions that focus on one or two specific Fedora topics, and also include some sort of social event, or interesting location. I'm picturing bringing a bunch of packagers together for a weekend and giving them the resources they need to knock one or two things off their agenda, or bringing a couple of people who are working on a particular feature to the same place and enabling them to have a code sprint. Little "Fedora summits", all over the place, focusing on whatever piece of Fedora is interesting to a group of contributors who want to come together. The model the Fedora Ambassadors have been using -- bringing the regional leaders together for a weekend to plan the next 6-12 month strategy -- is also a good example. Smaller, contributor-focused events that have specific goals, and can be organized by whoever is interested in putting them together, wherever they are in the world. These events complement FUDCons, and allow us to mix FUDCons and FADs together in different regions of the world with more flexibility and modularity. Because everything still comes out of one quarterly budget, finances remain clear and simple. There is a sum we cannot exceed, but we can subdivide that sum each quarter into whatever mixture of FUDCons and FADs we like. Maybe this even gives us an opportunity to remember the "U" in FUDCon, and organize events that are more user-centric. It also enables us to take some of the hackfest ideas that are worked on at FUDCons and replicate them in different locations and with greater frequency. All we need to do is figure out a way of tagging FADs as "proposed" and "approved" so that as groups of people get their act together, we can be sure that (a) the value of the event makes sense and (b) budget for the event exists. The people who take ownership of FADs will be responsible for setting and achieving goals to demonstrate the value of the event, so that everyone has proper expectations. Goals might include N bugs triaged or N packages reviewed, translation sprints, or focused testing on a piece of the application stack of interest to that group. Interested to hear whatever comments the rest of f-a-b has. --Max From chitlesh.goorah at gmail.com Sat Dec 20 13:00:53 2008 From: chitlesh.goorah at gmail.com (Chitlesh GOORAH) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 14:00:53 +0100 Subject: Urgent: Fedora Electronic Lab + Educational SW Message-ID: <50baabb30812200500w7bcdb043i871439e41e0981ab@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 4:58 AM, Danishka Navin wrote: > Hi Chitlesh, > > How are you? > Next week I have two workshops for school teachers and it mainly for > non-tech and windows based school teachers . Basically I will give them a > hands on training for how to install Fedora, updates, and relevant > educational packages. > > More over I will do few more workshops for the next year as well. > > Can you do me a favor? > > I need kind of extended version of FEL. :) > As you setup the FEL DVD is just 1.2GB. > Could you make a DVD iso by adding other Fedora educational sofwares. > Then teachers can work on other educational SW on the same DVD. > > I am not asking to change your FEL DVD structure. > Let it be 1.2GB as you did. > Pls give me a new iso which includes both FEL and Educational software. > > * Why I can't do it myself? > Here I have a poor ADSL connectivity. > So, running a script and downloading hole stuff for trial and error is much > difficult. > > So, pls help me. I really want to spread FEL with other Fedora stuff. :) > > Waiting for a positive response. > > Best Regards, > Danishka > Dear Danishka, I'm happy to hear from you and your workshops. If you install Fedora Electronic Lab, you can yum install all educational software. Likewise if you install fedora from the standard iso, you can still yum install any electronic software. Unfortunately I can't merge electronic and educational software in the FEL Livedvd iso for the following reasons: - I am the only one maintaining FEL as full-time - the use of educational software is vast and targets various categories of users (astronomy, biology, math,..). for each one of them the age of the users should be taken into account. We had a Fedora Educational spin in the past. I'm CC: the fedora board mailing list hoping someone can revive and maintain a Fedora Education spin. Maybe if you give us a list of software you wish to have for your workshops, maybe fedora can spin a special LiveDVD for your workshops while you will promote fedora. I ask the approval from Fedora Board for such a spin through this email. Thereby I invite you to join our Fedora Ambassador Project and be one of our Fedora Ambassadors. You can also meet other Fedora Ambassadors in your region who might help you as well for your events. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors Kind regards, Chitlesh From sebastian at when.com Sat Dec 20 18:20:41 2008 From: sebastian at when.com (Sebastian Dziallas) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 19:20:41 +0100 Subject: Urgent: Fedora Electronic Lab + Educational SW In-Reply-To: <50baabb30812200500w7bcdb043i871439e41e0981ab@mail.gmail.com> References: <50baabb30812200500w7bcdb043i871439e41e0981ab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <494D3779.8070701@when.com> Chitlesh GOORAH wrote: > On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 4:58 AM, Danishka Navin wrote: >> Hi Chitlesh, >> >> How are you? >> Next week I have two workshops for school teachers and it mainly for >> non-tech and windows based school teachers . Basically I will give them a >> hands on training for how to install Fedora, updates, and relevant >> educational packages. >> >> More over I will do few more workshops for the next year as well. >> >> Can you do me a favor? >> >> I need kind of extended version of FEL. :) >> As you setup the FEL DVD is just 1.2GB. >> Could you make a DVD iso by adding other Fedora educational sofwares. >> Then teachers can work on other educational SW on the same DVD. >> >> I am not asking to change your FEL DVD structure. >> Let it be 1.2GB as you did. >> Pls give me a new iso which includes both FEL and Educational software. >> >> * Why I can't do it myself? >> Here I have a poor ADSL connectivity. >> So, running a script and downloading hole stuff for trial and error is much >> difficult. >> >> So, pls help me. I really want to spread FEL with other Fedora stuff. :) >> >> Waiting for a positive response. >> >> Best Regards, >> Danishka >> > > Dear Danishka, > > I'm happy to hear from you and your workshops. > > If you install Fedora Electronic Lab, you can yum install all > educational software. > Likewise if you install fedora from the standard iso, you can still > yum install any electronic software. > > Unfortunately I can't merge electronic and educational software in the > FEL Livedvd iso for the following reasons: > - I am the only one maintaining FEL as full-time > - the use of educational software is vast and targets various > categories of users (astronomy, biology, math,..). for each one of > them the age of the users should be taken into account. We had a > Fedora Educational spin in the past. I'm CC: the fedora board mailing > list hoping someone can revive and maintain a Fedora Education spin. Ping! Hi there :) Well, we've an education spin, as well as a special interest group [1] for educational stuff. But, er... I need to admit, the spin which you can currently grab from spins.fedoraproject.org only includes mathematical applications. If you want to get further information, you might want to look at the feature page here [3]. Unfortunately, it became quite calm around the Edu SIG, but I'm still hoping that this doesn't need to be the end. For example, you could add your name to the wiki and we can try to get something off the ground :). Our last meeting on IRC also happened some time ago - if you're interested in joining, I'd be happy to welcome you! I've been working on some Sugar & OLPC stuff recently, but I believe a spin with educational or scientific apps is still heavily needed. Maybe we should also expand our goals: Just focusing on mathematical applications might have been not the best idea. Maybe we could also cooperate with other groups in Fedora (with educational or scientific goals) concerning the creation of a spin. But I still feel that without feedback or ideas from other people, it's somehow hard to get something started. Like Chitlesh said, a list of the software you want use would be great. > Maybe if you give us a list of software you wish to have for your > workshops, maybe fedora can spin a special LiveDVD for your workshops > while you will promote fedora. I ask the approval from Fedora Board > for such a spin through this email. This might be a solution, too. But nevertheless, I think feedback or ideas concerning a possible spin would be very helpful! > Thereby I invite you to join our Fedora Ambassador Project and be one > of our Fedora Ambassadors. You can also meet other Fedora Ambassadors > in your region who might help you as well for your events. > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors > > Kind regards, > Chitlesh By the way: You might also want to join our mailing list [3]. And please don't hesitate to contact me directly ;). --Sebastian [1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Education [2] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/EducationMathSpin [3] http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-education-list From sebastian at when.com Sat Dec 20 19:38:04 2008 From: sebastian at when.com (Sebastian Dziallas) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 20:38:04 +0100 Subject: Urgent: Fedora Electronic Lab + Educational SW In-Reply-To: <494D3D22.8080306@gmail.com> References: <50baabb30812200500w7bcdb043i871439e41e0981ab@mail.gmail.com> <494D3779.8070701@when.com> <494D3D22.8080306@gmail.com> Message-ID: <494D499C.6050406@when.com> Danishka Navin wrote: > Sebastian Dziallas wrote: >> Chitlesh GOORAH wrote: >>> On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 4:58 AM, Danishka Navin >>> wrote: [...] snip! >>>> I need kind of extended version of FEL. :) >>>> As you setup the FEL DVD is just 1.2GB. >>>> Could you make a DVD iso by adding other Fedora educational sofwares. >>>> Then teachers can work on other educational SW on the same DVD. >>>> >>>> I am not asking to change your FEL DVD structure. >>>> Let it be 1.2GB as you did. >>>> Pls give me a new iso which includes both FEL and Educational software. [...] snip! >>> >>> Dear Danishka, >>> >>> I'm happy to hear from you and your workshops. >>> >>> If you install Fedora Electronic Lab, you can yum install all >>> educational software. >>> Likewise if you install fedora from the standard iso, you can still >>> yum install any electronic software. >>> >>> Unfortunately I can't merge electronic and educational software in the >>> FEL Livedvd iso for the following reasons: >>> - I am the only one maintaining FEL as full-time >>> - the use of educational software is vast and targets various >>> categories of users (astronomy, biology, math,..). for each one of >>> them the age of the users should be taken into account. We had a >>> Fedora Educational spin in the past. I'm CC: the fedora board mailing >>> list hoping someone can revive and maintain a Fedora Education spin. >> >> Ping! Hi there :) >> >> Well, we've an education spin, as well as a special interest group [1] >> for educational stuff. > I have joined to the team Welcome and thanks for joining! :) >> But, er... I need to admit, the spin which you can currently grab from >> spins.fedoraproject.org only includes mathematical applications. If >> you want to get further information, you might want to look at the >> feature page here [3]. >> >> Unfortunately, it became quite calm around the Edu SIG, but I'm still >> hoping that this doesn't need to be the end. >> >> For example, you could add your name to the wiki and we can try to get >> something off the ground :). Our last meeting on IRC also happened >> some time ago - if you're interested in joining, I'd be happy to >> welcome you! >> >> I've been working on some Sugar & OLPC stuff recently, but I believe a >> spin with educational or scientific apps is still heavily needed. >> Maybe we should also expand our goals: Just focusing on mathematical >> applications might have been not the best idea. Maybe we could also >> cooperate with other groups in Fedora (with educational or scientific >> goals) concerning the creation of a spin. >> >> But I still feel that without feedback or ideas from other people, >> it's somehow hard to get something started. Like Chitlesh said, a list >> of the software you want use would be great. >> >>> Maybe if you give us a list of software you wish to have for your >>> workshops, maybe fedora can spin a special LiveDVD for your workshops >>> while you will promote fedora. I ask the approval from Fedora Board >>> for such a spin through this email. >> >> This might be a solution, too. But nevertheless, I think feedback or >> ideas concerning a possible spin would be very helpful! > > Hi Sebastian, > > My target is adding possible software's which covers all (but possible) > school education subjects. > > Math, Arts, Science, Language/English, Computer, Geography, Accounts, > Electronics, etc > for age range of 6 to 18 students and teachers of them. Okey dokey, this sounds really like a beginning. I think we should also evaluate, which applications we're going to include, since it doesn't really make sense to flood the spin with e.g. three geometry programs, right? Maybe we should just have a quick meeting on IRC, if you want to. How about this Monday, 1800 UTC on #fedora-edu on Freenode? If this time doesn't work for you or somebody else here around, please let me know! Rex? What do you think? And others: Of course, you're invited to join! --Sebastian >>> Thereby I invite you to join our Fedora Ambassador Project and be one >>> of our Fedora Ambassadors. You can also meet other Fedora Ambassadors >>> in your region who might help you as well for your events. >>> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> Chitlesh >> >> By the way: You might also want to join our mailing list [3]. > Yes, I did :) >> And please don't hesitate to contact me directly ;). > > Sure! >> >> --Sebastian >> >> [1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Education >> [2] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/EducationMathSpin >> [3] http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-education-list From fugolini at fedoraproject.org Sat Dec 20 19:55:28 2008 From: fugolini at fedoraproject.org (Francesco Ugolini) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 20:55:28 +0100 Subject: Fedora events in 2009 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 3:39 PM, Max Spevack wrote: > WHAT NEEDS TO STAY THE SAME: > > The general method for distributing and spending the "global events and > swag" is working well, and should continue, in my opinion. Yes, I absolutely agree with you. The system is really performant and designed to be easy and reliable both for who has to manage the budget and for the people who are asking for founds (to sponsor an event). I think you have created something really precious for the whole project and I'm sure everyone has to know it :) > > WHAT NEEDS TO CHANGE: > > In our quest for globalization, I don't want to fall into a trap of saying > "there are four quarters in the year, and therefore we should do one FUDCon > per quarter in a different region of the world". I agree completely! > > As such, I would like to do two things: > > (1) Think of the "FUDCon money" in the Fedora budget not as "FUDCon money", > but rather as "money for premier, Fedora-centric events". I don't want to say this is not good, but maybe premier could let someone thinking those events are better than the other by design (at list from my bad english understanding). BTW, I think the way to change the name for the FUDCon money is a great idea. +1 for it > (2) Create a second kind of Fedora-centric event that can complement > FUDCons, and allow folks like me, Paul, or regional Ambassador leaders to > create the sorts of events that are most useful to their region. Yes, this is genious! I think it really power the community. FADs or, better, their core principles make clear that people, all together, in a face-to-face meeting, could improve the results of their work thanks to the better interaction and a better sync between more brains (a place, some people, great results). Once again I completely agree with this proposal. I think those ideas are straightforward and I'm sure the whole community could really benefit from the adoption of those ones (your explanation make me wonder about the powerfulness of those ones). Thank you Max! Regards Francesco Ugolini From foss.mailinglists at gmail.com Sat Dec 20 23:39:08 2008 From: foss.mailinglists at gmail.com (Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 05:09:08 +0530 Subject: Fedora events in 2009 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <35586fc00812201539t6d5e1af9medfce7a4fa84532c@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 8:09 PM, Max Spevack wrote: [snipped] > To that end, I would like to re-brand the idea of "Fedora Ambassador Day" to > "Fedora Activity Day" (still keeping the FAD acronym). The idea of the new > FAD is to bring smaller groups of people in a region (I'm picturing 5-20) > together for day-long or weekend-long sessions that focus on one or two > specific Fedora topics, and also include some sort of social event, or > interesting location. [snip] I like this idea. Packaging, L10n, i18n, QA - the potential of a short, quick scrum to tick off items and get things done would work out nicely. > Smaller, contributor-focused events that have specific goals, and can be > organized by whoever is interested in putting them together, wherever they > are in the world. These events complement FUDCons, and allow us to mix > FUDCons and FADs together in different regions of the world with more > flexibility and modularity. We would require a page to keep a track of the FADs happening and insist on similar reporting as we do for events. Perhaps a simple requirement of having specific SMART goals that are tactical rather than strategic is something we can easily mandate for the FADs. -- http://www.gutenberg.net - Fine literature digitally re-published http://www.plos.org - Public Library of Science http://www.creativecommons.org - Flexible copyright for creative work From stickster at gmail.com Sun Dec 21 00:28:50 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 19:28:50 -0500 Subject: Fedora events in 2009 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20081221002850.GB17136@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 03:39:46PM +0100, Max Spevack wrote: > WHAT NEEDS TO CHANGE: > > In our quest for globalization, I don't want to fall into a trap of > saying "there are four quarters in the year, and therefore we should do > one FUDCon per quarter in a different region of the world". > > There are a few resons why I dont like this idea, including: > * If a particular region of the world only gets one "premier" Fedora > event each year, it puts a huge amount of pressure on that event to be > everything to everyone. For instance, the event has to satisfy local > Red Hat needs, it has to be at a time and place that maximizes local > attendance. We've felt this pressure already, not just in the North American FUDCons. > * The event risks being spread too thin. It trieds to address all of > Fedora's many parts, and risks not getting sufficient depth in any of > them. > * It doesn't give a region a chance to build momentum, and string > events together, creating stronger personal relationship, stronger > community, and better results that directly benefit Fedora. YES! Now, I have very much enjoyed FUDCon both as a volunteer community member and now as a planner and Red Hat attendee, but this is the best summation I've seen of what's lacking in FUDCon. The current organization creates the impression that without a huge Red Hat attendance list, the event is diminished. That is not to say that Red Hat attendees don't participate or deliver in a big way at FUDCon, because they do. But we have a better shot at extending our community reach and inclusiveness, for those who are willing to put forth effort in Fedora, if we can spread the events across more of a given region. We then have the potential to involve more local energy in the planning, execution, and work. > * It allows only one "premier" Fedora event to be held per quarter. > > I think we can be more efficient than that. > > As such, I would like to do two things: > > (1) Think of the "FUDCon money" in the Fedora budget not as "FUDCon > money", but rather as "money for premier, Fedora-centric events". > > (2) Create a second kind of Fedora-centric event that can complement > FUDCons, and allow folks like me, Paul, or regional Ambassador leaders > to create the sorts of events that are most useful to their region. > > To that end, I would like to re-brand the idea of "Fedora Ambassador > Day" to "Fedora Activity Day" (still keeping the FAD acronym). The idea > of the new FAD is to bring smaller groups of people in a region (I'm > picturing 5-20) together for day-long or weekend-long sessions that > focus on one or two specific Fedora topics, and also include some sort > of social event, or interesting location. > > I'm picturing bringing a bunch of packagers together for a weekend and > giving them the resources they need to knock one or two things off their > agenda, or bringing a couple of people who are working on a particular > feature to the same place and enabling them to have a code sprint. > Little "Fedora summits", all over the place, focusing on whatever piece > of Fedora is interesting to a group of contributors who want to come > together. The model the Fedora Ambassadors have been using -- bringing > the regional leaders together for a weekend to plan the next 6-12 month > strategy -- is also a good example. > > Smaller, contributor-focused events that have specific goals, and can be > organized by whoever is interested in putting them together, wherever > they are in the world. These events complement FUDCons, and allow us to > mix FUDCons and FADs together in different regions of the world with > more flexibility and modularity. We've been trying for some time to get FUDCon to involve more new people so it doesn't end up seeming like a gathering of the "in crowd." We succeed somewhat, but not to the extent I'd like -- as someone who came out of the volunteer community I would very much like to see more bootstrapping of community members into involvement in Fedora's daily activities. The FAD idea can help us achieve that objective. > Because everything still comes out of one quarterly budget, finances > remain clear and simple. There is a sum we cannot exceed, but we can > subdivide that sum each quarter into whatever mixture of FUDCons and > FADs we like. > > Maybe this even gives us an opportunity to remember the "U" in FUDCon, > and organize events that are more user-centric. It also enables us to > take some of the hackfest ideas that are worked on at FUDCons and > replicate them in different locations and with greater frequency. Thank you -- this is something the North American Ambassadors have been championing for a while, and I do believe it's time we found a way to start bridging that gap more effectively. > All we need to do is figure out a way of tagging FADs as "proposed" and > "approved" so that as groups of people get their act together, we can be > sure that (a) the value of the event makes sense and (b) budget for the > event exists. > > The people who take ownership of FADs will be responsible for setting > and achieving goals to demonstrate the value of the event, so that > everyone has proper expectations. Goals might include N bugs triaged or > N packages reviewed, translation sprints, or focused testing on a piece > of the application stack of interest to that group. > > Interested to hear whatever comments the rest of f-a-b has. I'm not naive enough to think that Red Hat is going to suddenly start sending groups of engineers around to more events in more places around the world, even in their own region. The beauty of expanding the FAD concept is that we can make small strategic commissions of travel funds for one or two people (if they're needed at all) to these events as needed for particular purposes. If there are going to be packaging sprints, we can try to put a Fedora packaging expert at that event; if the concentration is L10N, we can try to put a Fedora translation leader there. I know there are more details to work out around this plan. I'm probably getting ahead of the idea with implementation details, as I tend to do when I hear ideas that are exciting, but this is definitely one worth pursuing. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mspevack at redhat.com Sun Dec 21 09:03:40 2008 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 10:03:40 +0100 (CET) Subject: Fedora events in 2009 In-Reply-To: <20081221002850.GB17136@localhost.localdomain> References: <20081221002850.GB17136@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Dec 2008, Paul W. Frields wrote: > I know there are more details to work out around this plan. I'm > probably getting ahead of the idea with implementation details, as I > tend to do when I hear ideas that are exciting, but this is definitely > one worth pursuing. Given that responses seem to be positive, we'll continue implementation details towards this new kind of vision after Christmas and New Year's. For anyone who wants to get started, check out the re-launched FAD page and do with it what you will (including starting to organize events). https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FAD == I'm getting on an airplane in 4 hours, so I should probably start packing. See you all in 2009. Happy holidays to everyone in the Fedora community. --Max From Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net Tue Dec 30 07:56:20 2008 From: Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net (Axel Thimm) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 09:56:20 +0200 Subject: Fedora Remix definition Message-ID: <20081230075620.GB27851@victor.nirvana> Hi, I'm about to create some Fedora Remixes and I'm not quite sure whether it is one or not (in the trademark sense). I know it's been discussed a lot, but I see some contradictions: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Remix says The "Fedora Remix" mark identifies a derivation of software that is not produced or maintained by the Fedora Project. It may contain some software that is produced or maintained by the Fedora Project. [...] It can also be combined with other, non-Fedora software to produce interesting and compelling products. A Fedora Remix product may contain some software that is forbidden to include in Fedora itself. So I understand it that anything that includes one Fedora package is a remix already? So the first question is a) when is something *not* a remix? Next I read on various other wiki pages, that a remix is a subset of only official Fedora packages, e.g.: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JeroenVanMeeuwen/Revisor/FedoraRebrandRemixGuidelines Remix:: A Remix of Fedora is taking whatever amount of packages from the Fedora repositories and composing media based on that package set. Respin:: A Respin specifically updates existing media. Note the 'updating' is the key here. Usually, a Remix will include updates if they're available but that isn't the key point of a Remix, but for Respins, it is. Rebrand:: A Rebrand of Fedora b) So what is correct "Remix: includes offcial Fedora packages and more" or "Remix: includes only packages from a subset of offcial Fedora packages"? What I'd like to do is (not always combined) o apply updates-released o add closed source graphics card drivers o add multimedia stuff Is this still a fedora remix? Thanks and have a good start into 2009! -- Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Dec 30 10:52:16 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 02:52:16 -0800 Subject: Fedora Remix definition In-Reply-To: <20081230075620.GB27851@victor.nirvana> References: <20081230075620.GB27851@victor.nirvana> Message-ID: <20081230105216.GN24919@calliope.phig.org> On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 09:56:20AM +0200, Axel Thimm wrote: > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Remix says > > The "Fedora Remix" mark identifies a derivation of software that is > not produced or maintained by the Fedora Project. It may contain some > software that is produced or maintained by the Fedora > Project. [...] It can also be combined with other, non-Fedora > software to produce interesting and compelling products. A Fedora > Remix product may contain some software that is forbidden to > include in Fedora itself. > > So I understand it that anything that includes one Fedora package is a > remix already? Meaning, what if another RPM-based distribution uses Fedora RPMs? > So the first question is > > a) when is something *not* a remix? Perhaps it could be explained better, but the section you [...]'ed around is relevant: 'Fedora is a completely free and redistributable computing platform that can be "remixed" into different combinations of software.' That defines Fedora as a distro, which would seem to exclude the idea of calling another distro that has Fedora packages in it a Fedora Remix. > Next I read on various other wiki pages, that a remix is a subset of > only official Fedora packages, e.g.: > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JeroenVanMeeuwen/Revisor/FedoraRebrandRemixGuidelines > > Remix:: A Remix of Fedora is taking whatever amount of packages > from the Fedora repositories and composing media based on that > package set. Respin:: A Respin specifically updates existing > media. Note the 'updating' is the key here. Usually, a Remix will > include updates if they're available but that isn't the key point > of a Remix, but for Respins, it is. Rebrand:: A Rebrand of Fedora > > b) So what is correct "Remix: includes offcial Fedora packages and > more" or "Remix: includes only packages from a subset of offcial > Fedora packages"? This second explanation under kanarip's content sandbox doesn't say "only". It could be clearer, though. It is clearly a draft in his personal space, though. > What I'd like to do is (not always combined) > > o apply updates-released > o add closed source graphics card drivers > o add multimedia stuff > > Is this still a fedora remix? Those all sound to me like a Fedora Remix. - Karsten -- Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener http://quaid.fedorapeople.org AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From chris at tylers.info Tue Dec 30 17:10:35 2008 From: chris at tylers.info (Chris Tyler) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 12:10:35 -0500 Subject: Fedora Remix definition In-Reply-To: <20081230075620.GB27851@victor.nirvana> References: <20081230075620.GB27851@victor.nirvana> Message-ID: <1230657035.5156.108.camel@localhost6.localdomain6> On Tue, 2008-12-30 at 09:56 +0200, Axel Thimm wrote: > Hi, > > I'm about to create some Fedora Remixes and I'm not quite sure whether > it is one or not (in the trademark sense). I know it's been discussed > a lot, but I see some contradictions: Hi Axel, As the board worked through the trademark guidelines, we scoped down two terms: "spin" and "remix". Here's the difference: - A Spin consists only of packages from the Fedora repositories. It is trademark-approved by the board and has gone through the Spins process (which is being refined by fesco). People using a spin can have the same confidence in license freedom as Fedora distribution users -- in fact, the main Fedora distribution images are effectively a spin too. The official Fedora logo may be used in conjunction with spins. - A Remix consists of packages from the Fedora repositories but may also contain other packages. It does not require trademark approval and does not have to go through the spins process. Anyone can produce a remix at any time without any formal process. The Fedora Remix "secondary mark" may be used on Remixes, providing some really simple guidelines are followed. I hope this helps clarify the situation. As soon as the trademark guidelines and Spins process are finalized (and we're pretty much there), we'll start pumping the message about these terms. Paul and Spot have been driving this process -- here are the relevant pages: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Pfrields/New_trademark_guidelines https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Pfrields/Secondary_trademark_usage_guidelines -Chris From a.mani.cms at gmail.com Tue Dec 30 22:05:17 2008 From: a.mani.cms at gmail.com (Mani A) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 03:35:17 +0530 Subject: Fedora Remix definition Message-ID: <78323d480812301405x49d3ab7dieb004cc07e7a5d8c@mail.gmail.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Axel Thimm wrote: > b) So what is correct "Remix: includes offcial Fedora packages and > more" or "Remix: includes only packages from a subset of offcial > Fedora packages"? I think only the first should qualify to be a 'remix'. The second category should be called something else. Maybe 'custom release' or rather something like 'Fedora 10 CTE' (Custom TeX Edition) Best A. Mani - -- A. Mani Member, Cal. Math. Soc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFJWp0VoIK4BlImohYRAl8TAJsEux4wJrjKDnRsJ5gUMZ9aVnnZLgCdFvs5 b+Hqbjz69f7wL5CXAdrzvsU= =d9WM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From stickster at gmail.com Wed Dec 31 00:36:11 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 19:36:11 -0500 Subject: Fedora Remix definition In-Reply-To: <1230657035.5156.108.camel@localhost6.localdomain6> References: <20081230075620.GB27851@victor.nirvana> <1230657035.5156.108.camel@localhost6.localdomain6> Message-ID: <20081231003611.GB13594@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 12:10:35PM -0500, Chris Tyler wrote: > > On Tue, 2008-12-30 at 09:56 +0200, Axel Thimm wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I'm about to create some Fedora Remixes and I'm not quite sure whether > > it is one or not (in the trademark sense). I know it's been discussed > > a lot, but I see some contradictions: > > > Hi Axel, > > As the board worked through the trademark guidelines, we scoped down two > terms: "spin" and "remix". Here's the difference: > > - A Spin consists only of packages from the Fedora repositories. It is > trademark-approved by the board and has gone through the Spins process > (which is being refined by fesco). People using a spin can have the same > confidence in license freedom as Fedora distribution users -- in fact, > the main Fedora distribution images are effectively a spin too. The > official Fedora logo may be used in conjunction with spins. > > - A Remix consists of packages from the Fedora repositories but may also > contain other packages. It does not require trademark approval and does > not have to go through the spins process. Anyone can produce a remix at > any time without any formal process. The Fedora Remix "secondary mark" > may be used on Remixes, providing some really simple guidelines are > followed. > > I hope this helps clarify the situation. As soon as the trademark > guidelines and Spins process are finalized (and we're pretty much > there), we'll start pumping the message about these terms. > > Paul and Spot have been driving this process -- here are the relevant > pages: > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Pfrields/New_trademark_guidelines > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Pfrields/Secondary_trademark_usage_guidelines Thanks for providing this summary Chris. In the context of the "one Fedora package" question, it's important to remember that the key goals of having Remixes are to (1) allow the downstream to inherit some of Fedora's brand power, and (2) help the downstream drive interest in Fedora as the upstream. When I spoke with Red Hat Legal about this very issue, we didn't see a need to draw a line at a specific package content level because we felt that if someone is really driven to market Fedora because of including one package, who are we to stop them? If there's a great argument against this, though, we don't have to consider this particular door closed. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From angel at linux.org.bd Thu Dec 25 15:53:57 2008 From: angel at linux.org.bd (Angel) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 21:53:57 +0600 Subject: About: representing Fedora Officially in Bangladesh Message-ID: Hi, I am an Ambassador of Fedora, representing Fedora in Bangladesh. I have been involved with Fedora Project for more than two years. Within this time frame I have seen interest for Fedora among my friends, classmates and my family. Now I would like to form our this group/community as Fedora Bangladesh. Recently on a meeting with Bangladesh Linux Users Alliance (BLUA, a Linux user group working in Bangladesh to promote various Linux distro and open source initiative, [for your kind information: BLUA also function as parent organization to official Loco team of Ubuntu Linux] ), BLUA has shown interest of representing Fedora under the team name Fedora Bangladesh. However they have requested official recognition from the Fedora Project team to put Fedora Bangladesh under there Wing. Soon, we are going to arrange a Fedora release party (after the election of Bangladesh) from our this friends, classmates community. Also we have already bought a country domain for Fedora Bangladesh fedoraproject.org.bdwebsite. Is there any guidelines that I/we should follow forming Fedora Bangladesh that will give us the legal & official status to Represent Fedora in Bangladesh under the name Fedora Bangladesh team? Please let us know. Thank you for your cooperation & hopefully we will be able to represent Fedora in Bangladesh Officially. Angel GPG key: 0xC4639705 Bangladesh Linux Users Alliance Fedora Ambassador Bangladesh http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Angel Fedora -- Freedom? and rapid innovation Alfred Hitchcock - "The length of a film should be directly related to the endurance of the human bladder." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: