From kwade at redhat.com Fri Feb 1 20:57:32 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 12:57:32 -0800 Subject: redefining SIGs (old and new) In-Reply-To: References: <1201797267.26432.43.camel@calliope.phig.org> <7f692fec0801311037u1343b0b2r9ac0ac9866b84043@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1201899452.3460.62.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Thu, 2008-01-31 at 13:43 -0500, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > Again, I prefer simplicity. > > "SIG" = a loose group of folks trying to solve a problem. > > "Project" = a formalized team of people who are accountable to The Board > for solving a particular problem. Right. I'm not pushing for creating new terms or (really) redefining usage. We need to look at what people are saying and adjust to fit that, not the other way around. We have a fair amount of understanding in the Project about those meanings, but they are still somewhat confusing. Some things are called one when they are really the other. When it comes to Jef's scheme, I think a different term is called for. It *could* (and might best be) a usage of an already existing term. For example: Documentation, Marketing, Packaging, etc. == Core Projects KDE, Virtualization, Electronics, HAM Radio == Special Projects That is, we continue to use the term "Project" to refer to something more organized and accountable (for providing a service (Core) or a feature (Special). Anyway, that is just an off-the-top-o'-the-head idea. Jef -- you do understand that a cool moniker is not just for the sake of itself, right? We're talking about making changes (!) and we need to be wily in all ways, including co-opting existing memes. > Seems to me that the "Packaging SIG" is really a "Packaging Project" by > these guidelines. Noticed that, eh? - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 From kwade at redhat.com Fri Feb 1 21:27:09 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 13:27:09 -0800 Subject: One Summary outline draft In-Reply-To: <604aa7910801291940u73b9195ckc00f0314cd340e95@mail.gmail.com> References: <1201641982.5621.205.camel@calliope.phig.org> <479FEB1F.7050101@mkc.co.nz> <604aa7910801291940u73b9195ckc00f0314cd340e95@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1201901229.3460.71.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Tue, 2008-01-29 at 18:40 -0900, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > There's nothing specifically wrong with this... In fact Release Note > Beat writers are essentially that coordinating SIG. The issue is, we > need to generate beat writers in different areas. And the only way I > can see to do that effectively is to organize a SIG for each "area" > and have a documentor role in each SIG team. But how do we injec tt > those people into the work flow of package related SIGs? My rainbow > diagram tries to explain that. That has always an integral part of the beat writer concept. We sell it as a way to get involved in a project you are interested in, where you may not be able to contribute code: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/WhyJoin This is one of the reason's I like your idea here, more and more: it is reusing what we have been doing, finding the efficient pathways to walk and focusing our recruiting and training on filling those pathways. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 From kwade at redhat.com Fri Feb 1 21:27:55 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 13:27:55 -0800 Subject: redefining SIGs (old and new) In-Reply-To: References: <1201797267.26432.43.camel@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <1201901275.3460.74.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Thu, 2008-01-31 at 11:43 -0500, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > Why? > > Marketing has a ton of tasks and some leadership. Why can't we set > up > governance for the Marketing group? What hurdles are there to clear? Well, from the standpoint that "Marketing has been an informal SIG for a long time, and is now formalizing," why not? Simplest form is to just make an unwieldy steering committee of at least seven of the willing and just push on, then hold elections and such after F9 release. Looks kind of like we're getting that by default. I'll add it to an agenda someday soon, if no one beats me to it. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 From poelstra at redhat.com Fri Feb 1 22:30:08 2008 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 14:30:08 -0800 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2008-JAN-29 Message-ID: <47A39D70.30907@redhat.com> == Roll Call == Attendees: Max Spevack, Jef Spaleta, John Poelstra, Paul Frields, Steve Dickson, Seth Vidal, Bill Nottingham, Chris Aillon, Dennis Gilmore, Karsten Wade, and Matt Domsch Regrets: Jack Aboutboul == Followup to Unresolved Business == === Red Hat Summit and FUDCon === * Max & Greg are tracking down all details going forward. * One or both of them attend an internal weekly meeting to discuss status * Tentative dates for FUDCon will be Thurs, Friday, and Saturday * FUDCon part of conference will be free * Still working out details so that FUDCon attendees can visit Expo floor === Contributor satisfaction === * Schedule session for FUDCon in June * Unclear what best means of obtaining constructive feedback is * People remain free to comment on mailing lists === Board Goals For This Year === * Brainstorming to be moved to fedora-board-list * Will revisit once Paul is underway as Fedora Project Leader * ACTION: check back on status in one month * OWNER: Paul Frields === fedoraproject.org mail === * Take steps to approach changes that were requested in the past * Could we create a better start and search page for Fedora mailing list? * ACTION: check back on status in one month * OWNER: Dennis Gilmore == New Business == === Timeliness & Format of Board Minutes === * Will seek to alleviate concerns raised on fedora-advisory-board-list at redhat.com by holding public meetings * Once each month * Targeted start date March 2008. * ACTIONS: * Talk to Mike McGrath and Infrastructure team to determine technical hurdles * Engage community to help overcome technical hurdles * OWNER: Paul Frields === Job of the Fedora Board === * Discussion resulted from fedora-advisory-board-list thread * Clarify roles and responsibilities of the board and make wiki pages more specific * ACTION: check back on status in one month * OWNER: Paul Frields === Use of Fedora Name/Trademark === * What is required for a package or a project to carry the Fedora name? * Need to publish guidelines on wiki * OWNER: Max Spevack * ACTION: post proposal to fedora-advisory-board-list === Can Fedora Allow Anonymous Contributors? === * Discussion resulted from fedora-advisory-board-list thread * The Board agreed unanimously with the consensus from the f-a-b discussion of why anonymity does not work for Fedora 1. The ability to redistribute content is dependent on being able to affirm the intellectual property rights of all the people who have touched that content. 1. The Fedora Project cannot guarantee to protect the identity of users in the account system. * Reference: http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2008-January/msg00179.html === Post-release updates of custom spins === * Should the board have to approve them? * We will hosts as many spins as we have space for * Need to determine the hosting requirements and limits * How long will spins stay around? * ACTION: Request that Rahul Sundaram write a policy that would meet his requirements and those of others * OWNER: Jef Spaleta === Approving XFCE spin === * http://sundaram.fedorapeople.org/livecd-fedora-8-xfce.ks * ACTION: Board needs to verify spin and post results to fedora-advisory-list * OWNER: Seth Vidal == Future Business == === Google Start Page Update === * Project changing ownership within Red Hat to Greg Dekoenigsberg * Have Greg make presentation to Fedora Board in two weeks * OWNER: Karsten Wade === Community Architecture Update === * Max Spevack === Next Meeting Time & Date === * Wednesday @ 12 PM EST, Feburary 6, 2008 From mmcgrath at redhat.com Fri Feb 1 22:28:59 2008 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 16:28:59 -0600 (CST) Subject: Under 18, Wants to contribute Message-ID: The following question was raised in #fedora-admin and I had no idea how to answer it. So forwarding the question here. "I'm under the age of 18, does my dad need to cosign the CLA?" -Mike From loupgaroublond at gmail.com Fri Feb 1 22:37:47 2008 From: loupgaroublond at gmail.com (Yaakov Nemoy) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 17:37:47 -0500 Subject: Copying GPL code from one project to another: Legal Question Message-ID: <7f692fec0802011437v6d0b49fw477bd31721605cac@mail.gmail.com> Hi List, I have a legal question that I'm not sure about. I would like to copy some code from snake, a project hosted on hosted.fp.o, written by jlaska, copyrighted attributed to RH, into smolt, which the copyrights are attributed to Mike McGrath. I'm making some changes to the code, and of course keeping the GPL license. How do I label the copyrights? In Mike's name? in RH's name? in both? And how do I label it exactly? Please advise, Yaakov Nemoy From tiemann at redhat.com Fri Feb 1 22:42:06 2008 From: tiemann at redhat.com (Michael Tiemann) Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 17:42:06 -0500 Subject: Copying GPL code from one project to another: Legal Question In-Reply-To: <7f692fec0802011437v6d0b49fw477bd31721605cac@mail.gmail.com> References: <7f692fec0802011437v6d0b49fw477bd31721605cac@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47A3A03E.4010205@redhat.com> Yaakov Nemoy wrote: > Hi List, > > I have a legal question that I'm not sure about. I would like to copy > some code from snake, a project hosted on hosted.fp.o, written by > jlaska, copyrighted attributed to RH, into smolt, which the copyrights > are attributed to Mike McGrath. I'm making some changes to the code, > and of course keeping the GPL license. How do I label the copyrights? > In Mike's name? in RH's name? in both? And how do I label it > exactly? What I recall from my days of contributing code to the FSF was that one added a line for one's own code. Thus, I added to the FSF's copyright as follows: Copyright (c) 1987, 1988, 1989 The Free Software Foundation Copyright (c) 1989 Michael Tiemann After I did a copyright assignment to the FSF, it became: Copyright (c) 1987, 1988, 1989 The Free Software Foundation But I am not a lawyer and that's just my memory. M -- GPG Key: F0AD 3368 D24A 56CD A2AD 6A12 CAB3 2E89 EA0A C0E4 The structure of world peace cannot be the work of one man, or one party, or one nation...it must be a peace which rests on the cooperative effort of the whole world. -- Franklin Delano Roosevelt Part of the tragedy is of the artist is that there is no real goal in achieving what you are naturally good at. The real satisfaction lies in the things you accomplish by practice and effort. -- Joris van den Berg, commenting on the death of H. Cartier Bresson Dream so big you can share -- me From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Feb 1 22:50:34 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2008 04:20:34 +0530 Subject: Copying GPL code from one project to another: Legal Question In-Reply-To: <7f692fec0802011437v6d0b49fw477bd31721605cac@mail.gmail.com> References: <7f692fec0802011437v6d0b49fw477bd31721605cac@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47A3A23A.1080006@fedoraproject.org> Yaakov Nemoy wrote: > Hi List, > > I have a legal question that I'm not sure about. I would like to copy > some code from snake, a project hosted on hosted.fp.o, written by > jlaska, copyrighted attributed to RH, into smolt, which the copyrights > are attributed to Mike McGrath. I'm making some changes to the code, > and of course keeping the GPL license. How do I label the copyrights? > In Mike's name? in RH's name? in both? And how do I label it > exactly? > > Please advise, Note there is a fedora-legal list which is probably a better place. IANAL but what is usually done is: If you copy entire files, retain the copyright and license notices as it is. If you copy parts of another file, note that copyright and license information in the header Rahul From tcallawa at redhat.com Fri Feb 1 22:45:38 2008 From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom "spot" Callaway) Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 17:45:38 -0500 Subject: Copying GPL code from one project to another: Legal Question In-Reply-To: <7f692fec0802011437v6d0b49fw477bd31721605cac@mail.gmail.com> References: <7f692fec0802011437v6d0b49fw477bd31721605cac@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1201905938.3505.39.camel@dhcp83-155.boston.redhat.com> On Fri, 2008-02-01 at 17:37 -0500, Yaakov Nemoy wrote: > Hi List, > > I have a legal question that I'm not sure about. I would like to copy > some code from snake, a project hosted on hosted.fp.o, written by > jlaska, copyrighted attributed to RH, into smolt, which the copyrights > are attributed to Mike McGrath. I'm making some changes to the code, > and of course keeping the GPL license. How do I label the copyrights? > In Mike's name? in RH's name? in both? And how do I label it > exactly? The SFLC has a document which covers this: http://www.softwarefreedom.org/resources/2007/gpl-non-gpl-collaboration.html That document is focused on gpl and non-gpl collaboration, but the essentials are there (look at 2.1). Essentially, just retain Mike's Copyright attribution as is, and add your new copyright line above it. ~spot From notting at redhat.com Fri Feb 1 23:09:52 2008 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 18:09:52 -0500 Subject: Copying GPL code from one project to another: Legal Question In-Reply-To: <7f692fec0802011437v6d0b49fw477bd31721605cac@mail.gmail.com> References: <7f692fec0802011437v6d0b49fw477bd31721605cac@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080201230952.GA29957@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Yaakov Nemoy (loupgaroublond at gmail.com) said: > I have a legal question that I'm not sure about. I would like to copy > some code from snake, a project hosted on hosted.fp.o, written by > jlaska, copyrighted attributed to RH, into smolt, which the copyrights > are attributed to Mike McGrath. Note that just because part of smolt is attributed to Mike doesn't mean the whole thing needs be, unless he is requiring copyright assignment. Bill From loupgaroublond at gmail.com Fri Feb 1 23:13:34 2008 From: loupgaroublond at gmail.com (Yaakov Nemoy) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 18:13:34 -0500 Subject: Copying GPL code from one project to another: Legal Question In-Reply-To: <20080201230952.GA29957@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <7f692fec0802011437v6d0b49fw477bd31721605cac@mail.gmail.com> <20080201230952.GA29957@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <7f692fec0802011513p632001f9icd56529e16395b2f@mail.gmail.com> On Feb 1, 2008 6:09 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Yaakov Nemoy (loupgaroublond at gmail.com) said: > > I have a legal question that I'm not sure about. I would like to copy > > some code from snake, a project hosted on hosted.fp.o, written by > > jlaska, copyrighted attributed to RH, into smolt, which the copyrights > > are attributed to Mike McGrath. > > Note that just because part of smolt is attributed to Mike doesn't > mean the whole thing needs be, unless he is requiring copyright > assignment. He isn't explicitly, but having a mixed copyright situation can cause problems down the road. -Yaakov From notting at redhat.com Fri Feb 1 23:18:42 2008 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 18:18:42 -0500 Subject: Copying GPL code from one project to another: Legal Question In-Reply-To: <7f692fec0802011513p632001f9icd56529e16395b2f@mail.gmail.com> References: <7f692fec0802011437v6d0b49fw477bd31721605cac@mail.gmail.com> <20080201230952.GA29957@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <7f692fec0802011513p632001f9icd56529e16395b2f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080201231842.GA31278@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Yaakov Nemoy (loupgaroublond at gmail.com) said: > > Note that just because part of smolt is attributed to Mike doesn't > > mean the whole thing needs be, unless he is requiring copyright > > assignment. > > He isn't explicitly, but having a mixed copyright situation can cause > problems down the road. Right, but if any patches so far have not *had* explicit copyright assignment, it's in that boat already. Bill From loupgaroublond at gmail.com Fri Feb 1 23:21:36 2008 From: loupgaroublond at gmail.com (Yaakov Nemoy) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 18:21:36 -0500 Subject: Copying GPL code from one project to another: Legal Question In-Reply-To: <20080201231842.GA31278@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <7f692fec0802011437v6d0b49fw477bd31721605cac@mail.gmail.com> <20080201230952.GA29957@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <7f692fec0802011513p632001f9icd56529e16395b2f@mail.gmail.com> <20080201231842.GA31278@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <7f692fec0802011521x37abd7eepa8dbd0bc9234022a@mail.gmail.com> On Feb 1, 2008 6:18 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Yaakov Nemoy (loupgaroublond at gmail.com) said: > > > Note that just because part of smolt is attributed to Mike doesn't > > > mean the whole thing needs be, unless he is requiring copyright > > > assignment. > > > > He isn't explicitly, but having a mixed copyright situation can cause > > problems down the road. > > Right, but if any patches so far have not *had* explicit copyright > assignment, it's in that boat already. Good point, I'll have to contact all the devs then. Fortunately there are only a few of us :) From tchung at fedoraproject.org Fri Feb 1 23:43:03 2008 From: tchung at fedoraproject.org (Thomas Chung) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 15:43:03 -0800 Subject: Under 18, Wants to contribute In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <369bce3b0802011543y376b3086ic6c210c3ae629be8@mail.gmail.com> On Feb 1, 2008 2:28 PM, Mike McGrath wrote: > The following question was raised in #fedora-admin and I had no idea how > to answer it. So forwarding the question here. > > "I'm under the age of 18, does my dad need to cosign the CLA?" > > -Mike FYI, we have several people under age of 18 in Fedora Ambassadors Project and they are doing an excellent jobs. When they are interested in joining the project, we never ask their ages. Although, they voluntarily tell me how old they are during the initial interview for Ambassadors Project. Regards, -- Thomas Chung http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sat Feb 2 01:09:59 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2008 06:39:59 +0530 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2008-JAN-29 In-Reply-To: <47A39D70.30907@redhat.com> References: <47A39D70.30907@redhat.com> Message-ID: <47A3C2E7.40107@fedoraproject.org> John Poelstra wrote: > * ACTION: Request that Rahul Sundaram write a policy that would meet > his requirements and those of others > * OWNER: Jef Spaleta I have submitted a proposal now. > === Approving XFCE spin === > * http://sundaram.fedorapeople.org/livecd-fedora-8-xfce.ks > * ACTION: Board needs to verify spin and post results to > fedora-advisory-list > * OWNER: Seth Vidal Isn't technical verification managed by rel-eng? Rahul From jwboyer at gmail.com Sat Feb 2 02:39:37 2008 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 20:39:37 -0600 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2008-JAN-29 In-Reply-To: <47A3C2E7.40107@fedoraproject.org> References: <47A39D70.30907@redhat.com> <47A3C2E7.40107@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <20080201203937.50c8ded3@zod.rchland.ibm.com> On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 06:39:59 +0530 Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > === Approving XFCE spin === > > * http://sundaram.fedorapeople.org/livecd-fedora-8-xfce.ks > > * ACTION: Board needs to verify spin and post results to > > fedora-advisory-list > > * OWNER: Seth Vidal > > Isn't technical verification managed by rel-eng? That depends on what you mean by "technical verification" I guess. Ideally rel-eng would do this, yes. It won't scale though. Particularly as more spins come along, and especially during alpha/beta/preview/release times. I see no reason to disallow other extended members of our technical community to do verification. josh From jwboyer at gmail.com Sat Feb 2 02:48:46 2008 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 20:48:46 -0600 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2008-JAN-29 In-Reply-To: <47A39D70.30907@redhat.com> References: <47A39D70.30907@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20080201204846.3763c525@zod.rchland.ibm.com> On Fri, 01 Feb 2008 14:30:08 -0800 John Poelstra wrote: > === Contributor satisfaction === > * Schedule session for FUDCon in June That seems a bit late and a bit too exclusive to me. > * Unclear what best means of obtaining constructive feedback is > * People remain free to comment on mailing lists > > === Timeliness & Format of Board Minutes === I'd like to state that these minutes are improved from the ones in the recent past. Thank you. > * Will seek to alleviate concerns raised on > fedora-advisory-board-list at redhat.com by holding public meetings > * Once each month > * Targeted start date March 2008. Wonderful. > * ACTIONS: > * Talk to Mike McGrath and Infrastructure team to determine > technical hurdles > * Engage community to help overcome technical hurdles Technical hurdles such as what? Every other SIG/Committee gets by with public IRC meetings just fine... > === Use of Fedora Name/Trademark === > * What is required for a package or a project to carry the Fedora name? > * Need to publish guidelines on wiki > * OWNER: Max Spevack > * ACTION: post proposal to fedora-advisory-board-list What about a relaxed trademark policy? Something like that could also tie in with the subject below. > === Post-release updates of custom spins === > * Should the board have to approve them? > * We will hosts as many spins as we have space for What determines priority? E.g. does a main secondary arch spin take precedent over a language spin? Thoughts? > * Need to determine the hosting requirements and limits > * How long will spins stay around? Suggestion: The EOL and are removed when the release they are based on does. > === Community Architecture Update === > * Max Spevack Was there an update or is this something that is being added to the Board's agenda in the future? josh From poelstra at redhat.com Sat Feb 2 04:23:41 2008 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 20:23:41 -0800 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2008-JAN-29 In-Reply-To: <20080201204846.3763c525@zod.rchland.ibm.com> References: <47A39D70.30907@redhat.com> <20080201204846.3763c525@zod.rchland.ibm.com> Message-ID: <47A3F04D.3090509@redhat.com> Josh Boyer said the following on 02/01/2008 06:48 PM Pacific Time: >> === Community Architecture Update === >> * Max Spevack > > Was there an update or is this something that is being added to the > Board's agenda in the future? > Yes, you cut out the primary heading which was "Future Business" :) My apologies for leaving out the wiki link too... it is a little easier on the eyes. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/Meetings/2008-01-29 John From kwade at redhat.com Sat Feb 2 15:48:27 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2008 07:48:27 -0800 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2008-JAN-29 In-Reply-To: <20080201203937.50c8ded3@zod.rchland.ibm.com> References: <47A39D70.30907@redhat.com> <47A3C2E7.40107@fedoraproject.org> <20080201203937.50c8ded3@zod.rchland.ibm.com> Message-ID: <1201967307.3460.83.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Fri, 2008-02-01 at 20:39 -0600, Josh Boyer wrote: > On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 06:39:59 +0530 > Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > > === Approving XFCE spin === > > > * http://sundaram.fedorapeople.org/livecd-fedora-8-xfce.ks > > > * ACTION: Board needs to verify spin and post results to > > > fedora-advisory-list > > > * OWNER: Seth Vidal > > > > Isn't technical verification managed by rel-eng? > > That depends on what you mean by "technical verification" I guess. > Ideally rel-eng would do this, yes. It won't scale though. > Particularly as more spins come along, and especially during > alpha/beta/preview/release times. > > I see no reason to disallow other extended members of our technical > community to do verification. OTOH, relying upon another small group of people to do testing doesn't scale very well, either. I'd prefer it if spin owners could do this themselves. Do we have a checklist to follow? Is it easy to check the sanity of a spin? Cf. packaging review process, where many can be trained to review packages. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 From kwade at redhat.com Sat Feb 2 15:59:24 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2008 07:59:24 -0800 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2008-JAN-29 In-Reply-To: <20080201204846.3763c525@zod.rchland.ibm.com> References: <47A39D70.30907@redhat.com> <20080201204846.3763c525@zod.rchland.ibm.com> Message-ID: <1201967964.3460.94.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Fri, 2008-02-01 at 20:48 -0600, Josh Boyer wrote: > On Fri, 01 Feb 2008 14:30:08 -0800 > John Poelstra wrote: > > > > === Timeliness & Format of Board Minutes === > > I'd like to state that these minutes are improved from the ones in the > recent past. Thank you. Thanks backatcha; knowledge of where something sucks helps in knowing what to improve. > > * ACTIONS: > > * Talk to Mike McGrath and Infrastructure team to determine > > technical hurdles > > * Engage community to help overcome technical hurdles > > Technical hurdles such as what? Every other SIG/Committee gets by with > public IRC meetings just fine... For example, we discussed having an audio call that people could listen in on (live) and record for later. IRC is an obvious fall-back, but it is definitely a lower resolution format than teleconference. IME, a rough estimate is that an IRC meeting can only address 30% of the material that you can cover in a voice call. This would reduce the amount of business that can be handled by ~16% month-over-month. Teleconferences also give room for going over the allotted time without bumping against someone else waiting to use the meeting channel; the Board calls occasionally go over 1 hour in order to fit in all business. One of the reasons I am excited about Fedora using VoIP for contributors is the increased amount of business that can be done while forming stronger social bonds. The risk is the increased difficulty in others listening in, participating, and catching up later for meetings. Resolving this better for Board calls should help everyone who uses teleconf for meetings. > > === Use of Fedora Name/Trademark === > > * What is required for a package or a project to carry the Fedora name? > > * Need to publish guidelines on wiki > > * OWNER: Max Spevack > > * ACTION: post proposal to fedora-advisory-board-list > > What about a relaxed trademark policy? Something like that could also > tie in with the subject below. What is a relaxed trademark policy? - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 From kwade at redhat.com Sat Feb 2 16:03:08 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2008 08:03:08 -0800 Subject: Under 18, Wants to contribute In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1201968188.3460.99.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Fri, 2008-02-01 at 16:28 -0600, Mike McGrath wrote: > The following question was raised in #fedora-admin and I had no idea how > to answer it. So forwarding the question here. > > "I'm under the age of 18, does my dad need to cosign the CLA?" Fedora are not lawyers and we do not hand out legal advise. If the CLA does not mention age, then we have pretty much commented on the subject as much as we can. What is interesting to note, but not advise with!, is that the CLA doesn't seem to be much different than many other usage policies. Read the fine print for myspace.com, for example, which has many, many users under the age of 18. - Karsten, IANAL, TINLA, SBTFO :) -- Karsten Wade, Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 From katzj at redhat.com Sat Feb 2 16:26:39 2008 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2008 11:26:39 -0500 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2008-JAN-29 In-Reply-To: <1201967307.3460.83.camel@calliope.phig.org> References: <47A39D70.30907@redhat.com> <47A3C2E7.40107@fedoraproject.org> <20080201203937.50c8ded3@zod.rchland.ibm.com> <1201967307.3460.83.camel@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <1201969599.24012.6.camel@aglarond.local> On Sat, 2008-02-02 at 07:48 -0800, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > On Fri, 2008-02-01 at 20:39 -0600, Josh Boyer wrote: > > On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 06:39:59 +0530 > > Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > > > > === Approving XFCE spin === > > > > * http://sundaram.fedorapeople.org/livecd-fedora-8-xfce.ks > > > > * ACTION: Board needs to verify spin and post results to > > > > fedora-advisory-list > > > > * OWNER: Seth Vidal > > > > > > Isn't technical verification managed by rel-eng? > > > > That depends on what you mean by "technical verification" I guess. > > Ideally rel-eng would do this, yes. It won't scale though. > > Particularly as more spins come along, and especially during > > alpha/beta/preview/release times. > > > > I see no reason to disallow other extended members of our technical > > community to do verification. > > OTOH, relying upon another small group of people to do testing doesn't > scale very well, either. I'd prefer it if spin owners could do this > themselves. Do we have a checklist to follow? Is it easy to check the > sanity of a spin? Cf. packaging review process, where many can be > trained to review packages. There are a lot of years of experience of looking at packages to know what's sane vs what's not. Spins are, by comparison, incredibly new and thus there isn't really anything that can be checklist-y at present Jeremy From katzj at redhat.com Sat Feb 2 16:33:01 2008 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2008 11:33:01 -0500 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2008-JAN-29 In-Reply-To: <20080201204846.3763c525@zod.rchland.ibm.com> References: <47A39D70.30907@redhat.com> <20080201204846.3763c525@zod.rchland.ibm.com> Message-ID: <1201969981.24012.8.camel@aglarond.local> On Fri, 2008-02-01 at 20:48 -0600, Josh Boyer wrote: > > === Use of Fedora Name/Trademark === > > * What is required for a package or a project to carry the Fedora > name? > > * Need to publish guidelines on wiki > > * OWNER: Max Spevack > > * ACTION: post proposal to fedora-advisory-board-list > > What about a relaxed trademark policy? Something like that could also > tie in with the subject below. IANAL, but what I remember of trademark law is that you either defend your trademark or you lose it. The concept of a relaxed trademark policy doesn't really exist :-/ Jeremy From rtlm10 at gmail.com Sun Feb 3 14:30:29 2008 From: rtlm10 at gmail.com (Russell Harrison) Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 09:30:29 -0500 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2008-JAN-29 In-Reply-To: <1201967964.3460.94.camel@calliope.phig.org> References: <47A39D70.30907@redhat.com> <20080201204846.3763c525@zod.rchland.ibm.com> <1201967964.3460.94.camel@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <1ed4a0130802030630y77a139f4n202d186438c380a5@mail.gmail.com> On Feb 2, 2008 10:59 AM, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > > Technical hurdles such as what? Every other SIG/Committee gets by with > > public IRC meetings just fine... > > For example, we discussed having an audio call that people could listen > in on (live) and record for later. IRC is an obvious fall-back, but it > is definitely a lower resolution format than teleconference. IME, a > rough estimate is that an IRC meeting can only address 30% of the > material that you can cover in a voice call. This would reduce the > amount of business that can be handled by ~16% month-over-month. > Teleconferences also give room for going over the allotted time without > bumping against someone else waiting to use the meeting channel; the > Board calls occasionally go over 1 hour in order to fit in all business. +1 Another problem I discovered while I was trying to attend the marketing meeting this we was that people would keep coming over to my desk and asking for stuff during the chat. Even though I said I was attending a meeting people would still ask their questions. I assume expecting that I would be able to read the backlog and catch up. For a normal conversation that started randomly in any of the SIG channels they'd be right. In #fedora-meeting two screens behind and you might as well just give up. I only figured out at the very end of the meeting I should just put my headset on even though I wasn't using it. It would be nice if it wasn't a prop... ;-) > One of the reasons I am excited about Fedora using VoIP for contributors > is the increased amount of business that can be done while forming > stronger social bonds. The risk is the increased difficulty in others > listening in, participating, and catching up later for meetings. > Resolving this better for Board calls should help everyone who uses > teleconf for meetings. There's an awful lot that is conveyed in a person's voice. Being able to tell that someone was teasing you rather than actually criticizing is a good example. I know at my work I often leave things out of emails or chats that I'll go ahead and say in a conference call. -- Russell Harrison Systems Administrator -- Linux Desktops Cisco Systems, Inc. Note: The positions or opinions expressed in this email are my own. They are not necessarily those of my employer. From rtlm10 at gmail.com Sun Feb 3 18:16:19 2008 From: rtlm10 at gmail.com (Russell Harrison) Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 13:16:19 -0500 Subject: redefining SIGs (old and new) In-Reply-To: <604aa7910801310930t38fcf419u8b05bd8bf28fd329@mail.gmail.com> References: <1201797267.26432.43.camel@calliope.phig.org> <604aa7910801310930t38fcf419u8b05bd8bf28fd329@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1ed4a0130802031016s41717cc3jb801601c52cf6630@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 31, 2008 12:30 PM, wrote: > In my strawman rainbow chart of love, ... I am totally quoting that as much as possible. Russell From stickster at gmail.com Mon Feb 4 01:25:11 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul Frields) Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 20:25:11 -0500 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2008-JAN-29 In-Reply-To: <1ed4a0130802030630y77a139f4n202d186438c380a5@mail.gmail.com> References: <47A39D70.30907@redhat.com> <20080201204846.3763c525@zod.rchland.ibm.com> <1201967964.3460.94.camel@calliope.phig.org> <1ed4a0130802030630y77a139f4n202d186438c380a5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Feb 3, 2008 9:30 AM, Russell Harrison wrote: > On Feb 2, 2008 10:59 AM, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > > One of the reasons I am excited about Fedora using VoIP for contributors > > is the increased amount of business that can be done while forming > > stronger social bonds. The risk is the increased difficulty in others > > listening in, participating, and catching up later for meetings. > > Resolving this better for Board calls should help everyone who uses > > teleconf for meetings. > > There's an awful lot that is conveyed in a person's voice. Being able > to tell that someone was teasing you rather than actually criticizing > is a good example. I know at my work I often leave things out of > emails or chats that I'll go ahead and say in a conference call. +1. It's no coincidence that quarterlies are done via phone and not email. Paul (who found a public terminal at the hotel tonight) :-) From Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net Mon Feb 4 05:08:16 2008 From: Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net (Axel Thimm) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 07:08:16 +0200 Subject: Fedora at schools Message-ID: <20080204050816.GA23074@puariko.nirvana> Hi, I was looking for an "education" SIG, and all I found was a comment that the "Education" wiki page was considered stale already a year ago. I'm sure there are many interested in bringing Fedora to schools, where can I find them? :) There should probably be some more education related apps imported into Fedora and then some spins made with the hopes of some official blessing (timeframe F10/F11). As we can see from many inquiries on this list, there are quite a lot of minors contributing or wanting to do so already, so let's fuel this a bit more ;) -- Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net Mon Feb 4 05:11:09 2008 From: Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net (Axel Thimm) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 07:11:09 +0200 Subject: Under 18, Wants to contribute In-Reply-To: <1201968188.3460.99.camel@calliope.phig.org> References: <1201968188.3460.99.camel@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <20080204051109.GB23074@puariko.nirvana> Hi Karsten, On Sat, Feb 02, 2008 at 08:03:08AM -0800, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > > On Fri, 2008-02-01 at 16:28 -0600, Mike McGrath wrote: > > The following question was raised in #fedora-admin and I had no idea how > > to answer it. So forwarding the question here. > > > > "I'm under the age of 18, does my dad need to cosign the CLA?" > > Fedora are not lawyers and we do not hand out legal advise. > > If the CLA does not mention age, then we have pretty much commented on > the subject as much as we can. this matter turns up quite often, and we should have some standard answer, hopefully in a positive way. Otherwise everyone will have a different dealing with this situation and it will often escalate into f-a-b (which doesn't really resolve this, yet). No, I'm not favouring Fedora Child Labour, I'm demanding it! ;) > What is interesting to note, but not advise with!, is that the CLA > doesn't seem to be much different than many other usage policies. Read > the fine print for myspace.com, for example, which has many, many users > under the age of 18. > > - Karsten, IANAL, TINLA, SBTFO :) -- Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ivazqueznet at gmail.com Mon Feb 4 05:29:05 2008 From: ivazqueznet at gmail.com (Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams) Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 00:29:05 -0500 Subject: Under 18, Wants to contribute In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1202102945.24019.6.camel@ignacio.lan> On Fri, 2008-02-01 at 16:28 -0600, Mike McGrath wrote: > The following question was raised in #fedora-admin and I had no idea how > to answer it. So forwarding the question here. > > "I'm under the age of 18, does my dad need to cosign the CLA?" Personally I have no problem with letting individuals of 13 years or older contribute of their own accord. COPPA requires "verifiable parental consent" for individuals younger than that. http://www.coppa.org/coppa.htm -- Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams PLEASE don't CC me; I'm already subscribed -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Mon Feb 4 05:54:32 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 20:54:32 -0900 Subject: Fedora at schools In-Reply-To: <20080204050816.GA23074@puariko.nirvana> References: <20080204050816.GA23074@puariko.nirvana> Message-ID: <604aa7910802032154p26c46a68x802d785cecbaa348@mail.gmail.com> On Feb 3, 2008 8:08 PM, Axel Thimm wrote: > I'm sure there are many interested in bringing Fedora to schools, > where can I find them? :) That's a good question... and a general question concerning any topic where a group could organize. > There should probably be some more education related apps imported > into Fedora and then some spins made with the hopes of some official > blessing (timeframe F10/F11). As we can see from many inquiries on > this list, there are quite a lot of minors contributing or wanting to > do so already, so let's fuel this a bit more ;) There was a thread or two recently on -devel-list specifically about an Ed spin. -jef From kwade at redhat.com Mon Feb 4 09:27:26 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 01:27:26 -0800 Subject: Under 18, Wants to contribute In-Reply-To: <20080204051109.GB23074@puariko.nirvana> References: <1201968188.3460.99.camel@calliope.phig.org> <20080204051109.GB23074@puariko.nirvana> Message-ID: <1202117246.27164.81.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Mon, 2008-02-04 at 07:11 +0200, Axel Thimm wrote: > On Sat, Feb 02, 2008 at 08:03:08AM -0800, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > > > > > > If the CLA does not mention age, then we have pretty much commented on > > the subject as much as we can. > > this matter turns up quite often, and we should have some standard > answer, hopefully in a positive way. Otherwise everyone will have a > different dealing with this situation and it will often escalate into > f-a-b (which doesn't really resolve this, yet). > > No, I'm not favouring Fedora Child Labour, I'm demanding it! ;) Axel: Yes, this is true. My concern, to be honest, is that if we start asking questions of the lawyers, we might get back answers. :) For example, what if we get back the answer, "If you are under the age of 18 in the USA, you need a parent's signature"? Where before we didn't have any such rule, now we have a rule *and* an unknown number of current contributors might be suddenly out of compliance. Another way to look at this is, how do we turn pursuing this question where the answer can lead to *more* contributors? One idea that I like was having a teacher proxy or co-sign for a class working on a FLOSS contribution. I don't see that as a nice way to simplify the contributor process for some people. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From foss.mailinglists at gmail.com Mon Feb 4 09:37:42 2008 From: foss.mailinglists at gmail.com (Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay) Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 15:07:42 +0530 Subject: Fedora at schools In-Reply-To: <20080204050816.GA23074@puariko.nirvana> References: <20080204050816.GA23074@puariko.nirvana> Message-ID: <47A6DCE6.60502@gmail.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Axel Thimm wrote: | I was looking for an "education" SIG, and all I found was a comment | that the "Education" wiki page was considered stale already a year | ago. Somewhat OT but an interesting mail landed up at: https://www.redhat.com/archives/open-source-now-list/2008-February/msg00000.html - -- http://www.gutenberg.net - Fine literature digitally re-published http://www.plos.org - Public Library of Science http://www.creativecommons.org - Flexible copyright for creative work -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHptzmXQZpNTcrCzMRAr0gAJ9RnwHx8EbHPJ5maVOvsDNq36GwcACgu0ro GuUA01oRUelTr1sjngp3zgQ= =qUMV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From loupgaroublond at gmail.com Mon Feb 4 15:22:28 2008 From: loupgaroublond at gmail.com (Yaakov Nemoy) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 10:22:28 -0500 Subject: Under 18, Wants to contribute In-Reply-To: <1202117246.27164.81.camel@calliope.phig.org> References: <1201968188.3460.99.camel@calliope.phig.org> <20080204051109.GB23074@puariko.nirvana> <1202117246.27164.81.camel@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <7f692fec0802040722i2a503fc7j9820ae60d2fa1d1b@mail.gmail.com> On Feb 4, 2008 4:27 AM, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > > On Mon, 2008-02-04 at 07:11 +0200, Axel Thimm wrote: > > > On Sat, Feb 02, 2008 at 08:03:08AM -0800, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > > > > > > > > > If the CLA does not mention age, then we have pretty much commented on > > > the subject as much as we can. > > > > this matter turns up quite often, and we should have some standard > > answer, hopefully in a positive way. Otherwise everyone will have a > > different dealing with this situation and it will often escalate into > > f-a-b (which doesn't really resolve this, yet). > > > > No, I'm not favouring Fedora Child Labour, I'm demanding it! ;) > > Axel: > > Yes, this is true. My concern, to be honest, is that if we start asking > questions of the lawyers, we might get back answers. :) > > For example, what if we get back the answer, "If you are under the age > of 18 in the USA, you need a parent's signature"? Where before we > didn't have any such rule, now we have a rule *and* an unknown number of > current contributors might be suddenly out of compliance. Is this safer than turning a blind eye to it, and finding out we can be sued later? I think it would be smarter to ask the lawyers, knowing full well that we'll need a sane plan if they say no to anyone under 18 without additional paperwork. It's just one boring chore that could save our butts down the road. From Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net Mon Feb 4 19:13:51 2008 From: Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net (Axel Thimm) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 21:13:51 +0200 Subject: Under 18, Wants to contribute In-Reply-To: <7f692fec0802040722i2a503fc7j9820ae60d2fa1d1b@mail.gmail.com> References: <1201968188.3460.99.camel@calliope.phig.org> <20080204051109.GB23074@puariko.nirvana> <1202117246.27164.81.camel@calliope.phig.org> <7f692fec0802040722i2a503fc7j9820ae60d2fa1d1b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080204191351.GE30721@puariko.nirvana> On Mon, Feb 04, 2008 at 10:22:28AM -0500, Yaakov Nemoy wrote: > On Feb 4, 2008 4:27 AM, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > > > > On Mon, 2008-02-04 at 07:11 +0200, Axel Thimm wrote: > > > > > On Sat, Feb 02, 2008 at 08:03:08AM -0800, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > If the CLA does not mention age, then we have pretty much commented on > > > > the subject as much as we can. > > > > > > this matter turns up quite often, and we should have some standard > > > answer, hopefully in a positive way. Otherwise everyone will have a > > > different dealing with this situation and it will often escalate into > > > f-a-b (which doesn't really resolve this, yet). > > > > > > No, I'm not favouring Fedora Child Labour, I'm demanding it! ;) > > > > Axel: > > > > Yes, this is true. My concern, to be honest, is that if we start asking > > questions of the lawyers, we might get back answers. :) > > > > For example, what if we get back the answer, "If you are under the age > > of 18 in the USA, you need a parent's signature"? Where before we > > didn't have any such rule, now we have a rule *and* an unknown number of > > current contributors might be suddenly out of compliance. > > Is this safer than turning a blind eye to it, and finding out we can > be sued later? I think it would be smarter to ask the lawyers, > knowing full well that we'll need a sane plan if they say no to anyone > under 18 without additional paperwork. It's just one boring chore > that could save our butts down the road. Let's take the middle road: Karsten asks the lawyers, and if the answer is something we don't want to hear he lets the thread silenty die (and maybe PMs so we don't ask again ;). Otherwise he replies to it with good news :) Promoting Fedora Child Labour, now endorsing half-blind man tactics - what else will I mutate into these days ... More seriously I agree with Yaakov, it's better to know where we stand and how we can make sure we are clean. If we need a signature or a proxy we can arrange to get one, at least we will have a formal procedure to point to. -- Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jmbabich at gmail.com Mon Feb 4 19:26:31 2008 From: jmbabich at gmail.com (John Babich) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 22:26:31 +0300 Subject: Under 18, Wants to contribute In-Reply-To: <20080204191351.GE30721@puariko.nirvana> References: <1201968188.3460.99.camel@calliope.phig.org> <20080204051109.GB23074@puariko.nirvana> <1202117246.27164.81.camel@calliope.phig.org> <7f692fec0802040722i2a503fc7j9820ae60d2fa1d1b@mail.gmail.com> <20080204191351.GE30721@puariko.nirvana> Message-ID: <9d2c731f0802041126r1ae338b4t343692dc013f3825@mail.gmail.com> On Feb 4, 2008 10:13 PM, Axel Thimm wrote: > On Mon, Feb 04, 2008 at 10:22:28AM -0500, Yaakov Nemoy wrote: > Let's take the middle road: Karsten asks the lawyers, and if the > answer is something we don't want to hear he lets the thread silenty > die (and maybe PMs so we don't ask again ;). Otherwise he replies to > it with good news :) > Fedora is a success because Red Hat takes the law seriously, even if it sometimes makes life difficult (encumbered codecs, anyone?). > Promoting Fedora Child Labour, now endorsing half-blind man tactics - > what else will I mutate into these days ... > Shame on you :-) > More seriously I agree with Yaakov, it's better to know where we stand > and how we can make sure we are clean. If we need a signature or a > proxy we can arrange to get one, at least we will have a formal > procedure to point to. > +1 Best Regards, John "IANAL" Babich Volunteer, Fedora Project From jonstanley at gmail.com Mon Feb 4 19:29:16 2008 From: jonstanley at gmail.com (Jon Stanley) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 14:29:16 -0500 Subject: Under 18, Wants to contribute In-Reply-To: <20080204191351.GE30721@puariko.nirvana> References: <1201968188.3460.99.camel@calliope.phig.org> <20080204051109.GB23074@puariko.nirvana> <1202117246.27164.81.camel@calliope.phig.org> <7f692fec0802040722i2a503fc7j9820ae60d2fa1d1b@mail.gmail.com> <20080204191351.GE30721@puariko.nirvana> Message-ID: On Feb 4, 2008 2:13 PM, Axel Thimm wrote: > More seriously I agree with Yaakov, it's better to know where we stand > and how we can make sure we are clean. If we need a signature or a > proxy we can arrange to get one, at least we will have a formal > procedure to point to. +1. Let me peer into my magic 8 ball now. I already know what the lawyers are going to say - the CLA is a signed, binding legal agreement. You have to have attained the age of majority in your jurisdiction, wherever that may be (18 in the US, don't know about other countries) in order to sign it. No different than applying for a credit card, etc - both agreements give you legal rights and obligations. While this may not be the answer that *we* want, it is the legal answer (IANAL though). What we need is some stated process for parental consent that's not too cumbersome. From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Mon Feb 4 19:32:42 2008 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (seth vidal) Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 14:32:42 -0500 Subject: Under 18, Wants to contribute In-Reply-To: References: <1201968188.3460.99.camel@calliope.phig.org> <20080204051109.GB23074@puariko.nirvana> <1202117246.27164.81.camel@calliope.phig.org> <7f692fec0802040722i2a503fc7j9820ae60d2fa1d1b@mail.gmail.com> <20080204191351.GE30721@puariko.nirvana> Message-ID: <1202153562.14526.51.camel@cutter> On Mon, 2008-02-04 at 14:29 -0500, Jon Stanley wrote: > On Feb 4, 2008 2:13 PM, Axel Thimm wrote: > > > More seriously I agree with Yaakov, it's better to know where we stand > > and how we can make sure we are clean. If we need a signature or a > > proxy we can arrange to get one, at least we will have a formal > > procedure to point to. > > +1. Let me peer into my magic 8 ball now. I already know what the > lawyers are going to say - the CLA is a signed, binding legal > agreement. You have to have attained the age of majority in your > jurisdiction, wherever that may be (18 in the US, don't know about > other countries) in order to sign it. No different than applying for > a credit card, etc - both agreements give you legal rights and > obligations. > > While this may not be the answer that *we* want, it is the legal > answer (IANAL though). What we need is some stated process for > parental consent that's not too cumbersome. > It might not - a lot of online agreements are w/minors. Facebook, myspace, etc.. -sv From kwade at redhat.com Mon Feb 4 21:21:08 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 13:21:08 -0800 Subject: Under 18, Wants to contribute In-Reply-To: <1202153562.14526.51.camel@cutter> References: <1201968188.3460.99.camel@calliope.phig.org> <20080204051109.GB23074@puariko.nirvana> <1202117246.27164.81.camel@calliope.phig.org> <7f692fec0802040722i2a503fc7j9820ae60d2fa1d1b@mail.gmail.com> <20080204191351.GE30721@puariko.nirvana> <1202153562.14526.51.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1202160068.10079.34.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Mon, 2008-02-04 at 14:32 -0500, seth vidal wrote: > It might not - a lot of online agreements are w/minors. Facebook, > myspace, etc.. In fact, I'm fairly sure in my heart of hearts that is the intention of the Red Hat legal team when they crafted this agreement. Most likely they knew full well that minors would be wanting to sign it. If they had intended language prohibiting or controlling the agreement by age, they would have included it. But, hey, we can ask. After all, in addition to not being a lawyer and not giving legal advice, I am not a mind reader. :) At least we do have a consensus on one thing, right? We agree here that we'd like to see people of all ages contributing to Fedora, with or without a CLA. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jonstanley at gmail.com Mon Feb 4 22:36:15 2008 From: jonstanley at gmail.com (Jon Stanley) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 17:36:15 -0500 Subject: Under 18, Wants to contribute In-Reply-To: <1202160068.10079.34.camel@calliope.phig.org> References: <1201968188.3460.99.camel@calliope.phig.org> <20080204051109.GB23074@puariko.nirvana> <1202117246.27164.81.camel@calliope.phig.org> <7f692fec0802040722i2a503fc7j9820ae60d2fa1d1b@mail.gmail.com> <20080204191351.GE30721@puariko.nirvana> <1202153562.14526.51.camel@cutter> <1202160068.10079.34.camel@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: On Feb 4, 2008 4:21 PM, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > But, hey, we can ask. After all, in addition to not being a lawyer and > not giving legal advice, I am not a mind reader. :) Awww, we thought that was one of your many super-human abilities! :) > At least we do have a consensus on one thing, right? We agree here that > we'd like to see people of all ages contributing to Fedora, with or > without a CLA. I don't see any disagreement on that...certainly not from here. From kwade at redhat.com Tue Feb 5 16:02:24 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2008 08:02:24 -0800 Subject: Under 18, Wants to contribute In-Reply-To: References: <1201968188.3460.99.camel@calliope.phig.org> <20080204051109.GB23074@puariko.nirvana> <1202117246.27164.81.camel@calliope.phig.org> <7f692fec0802040722i2a503fc7j9820ae60d2fa1d1b@mail.gmail.com> <20080204191351.GE30721@puariko.nirvana> <1202153562.14526.51.camel@cutter> <1202160068.10079.34.camel@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <1202227344.10079.87.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Mon, 2008-02-04 at 17:36 -0500, Jon Stanley wrote: > On Feb 4, 2008 4:21 PM, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > > > But, hey, we can ask. After all, in addition to not being a lawyer and > > not giving legal advice, I am not a mind reader. :) > > Awww, we thought that was one of your many super-human abilities! :) The fact that I didn't know you thought that should be proof enough. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Feb 5 22:06:40 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2008 14:06:40 -0800 Subject: Board meeting postponed until 06 Feb 1700 UTC Message-ID: <1202249200.23430.53.camel@calliope.phig.org> Not sure if the word got out, but we moved the Board meeting this week because RHT has Paul strapped into new hire orientation. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kanarip at kanarip.com Wed Feb 6 18:23:25 2008 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 19:23:25 +0100 Subject: Fedora 9 Alpha Jigdo Message-ID: <47A9FB1D.7090103@kanarip.com> Fedora Unity announces the Fedora 9 Alpha release is now also available via Jigdo. Jigdo saves you a lot of bandwidth and time if you already have the data (maybe a local mirror or previously released media), and has been proposed as a feature for Fedora 9[1]. For documentation on how to use Jigdo or pyJigdo visit: http://fedorasolved.org/post-install-solutions/jigdo/ (Jigdo) http://fedorahosted.org/pyjigdo/ (pyJigdo) To get the bits, either yum install jigdo or yum install pyjigdo, and run it with the following Jigdo file: http://jigdo.fedoraunity.org/templates/9-Alpha/Fedora-9-Alpha.jigdo or go to http://spins.fedoraunity.org/spins for more information. Kind regards, Jeroen van Meeuwen -kanarip Fedora Unity Founder [1] Jigdo Release http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/JigdoRelease From ben at fedoraunity.org Thu Feb 7 14:22:38 2008 From: ben at fedoraunity.org (Ben Williams) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 14:22:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Fedora-Unity F8 20080204 respin In-Reply-To: <16584494.37221202393960623.JavaMail.root@zimbra.cbccgroup.com> Message-ID: <16802830.37241202394158549.JavaMail.root@zimbra.cbccgroup.com> The Fedora Unity Project is proud to announce the release of new ISO Re-Spins (DVD and CD Sets) of Fedora 8. These Re-Spin ISOs are based on the officially released Fedora 8 installation media and include all updates released as of February 4,2008. The ISO images are available for i386 and x86_64 architectures via jigdo starting Thursday, February 7, 2008. We have included CD Image sets for those in the Fedora community that do not have DVD drives or burners available. During the Testing phase some of our testers had problems with installing via VNC while others did not have any problems at all. Please report your results in our bug tracker. http://bugs.fedoraunity.org/spin-bugs/10/ We would like to give a special thanks to the following for testing this respin in 2 days Harley-D Dana Hoffman Jr zcat Jason Farrell Iwolf Jeffrey Tadlock Southern_Gentleman Ben Williams kanarip Jeroen van Meeuwen Fedora Unity has taken up the Re-Spin task to provide the community with the chance to install Fedora with recent updates already included. These updates might otherwise comprise more than 1.33GiB of downloads for a full install. This is a community project, for and by the community. You can contribute to the community by joining our test process. A full list of bugs, packages and changelogs that have been updated in this Re-Spin can be reviewed on http://spins.fedoraunity.org/changelogs/20080204/ If you are interested in helping with the testing or mirroring efforts, please contact the Fedora Unity team. Contact information is available at http://fedoraunity.org/ or the #fedora-unity channel on the Freenode IRC Network (irc.freenode.net). Go to http://spins.fedoraunity.org/spins to get the bits! To report bugs in the Re-Spins please use http://bugs.fedoraunity.org/ Ben Williams From mmcgrath at redhat.com Thu Feb 7 23:41:02 2008 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 17:41:02 -0600 (CST) Subject: Spins, where are they? Message-ID: We still only have 3 respins*. Whats the hangup? Has no one applied for more spins or is this just not as popular as we'd thought. -Mike * FEL, Games, Developer From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Feb 8 00:52:27 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 15:52:27 -0900 Subject: Spins, where are they? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <604aa7910802071652w4666d287o12c188297cc169fd@mail.gmail.com> On Feb 7, 2008 2:41 PM, Mike McGrath wrote: > We still only have 3 respins*. Whats the hangup? Has no one applied for > more spins or is this just not as popular as we'd thought. > > -Mike > > * FEL, Games, Developer Rahul just got approval for a huge number of localized spins.. not too long ago. XFCE spin has its technical issues fixed even more recently. When will and if release-eng will produce isos from the blessed ks files.. I can't tell you. Looking beyond that.... And someone was working on a edu spin.. see devel-list archive for a ks file. Astronomy SIG I believe is working on getting software in the repo so they can do spin. -jef From mmcgrath at redhat.com Fri Feb 8 01:14:54 2008 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 19:14:54 -0600 (CST) Subject: Spins, where are they? In-Reply-To: <604aa7910802071652w4666d287o12c188297cc169fd@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910802071652w4666d287o12c188297cc169fd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Feb 2008, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Feb 7, 2008 2:41 PM, Mike McGrath wrote: > > We still only have 3 respins*. Whats the hangup? Has no one applied for > > more spins or is this just not as popular as we'd thought. > > > > -Mike > > > > * FEL, Games, Developer > > Rahul just got approval for a huge number of localized spins.. not too > long ago. > > XFCE spin has its technical issues fixed even more recently. > > When will and if release-eng will produce isos from the blessed ks > files.. I can't tell you. > > Looking beyond that.... > And someone was working on a edu spin.. see devel-list archive for a ks file. > Astronomy SIG I believe is working on getting software in the repo xso > they can do spin. > K, so its just a case of "they're on the way" :) I look forward to it. -Mike From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Feb 8 01:20:08 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 16:20:08 -0900 Subject: Spins, where are they? In-Reply-To: References: <604aa7910802071652w4666d287o12c188297cc169fd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910802071720v49851d50m77241ebdb979ad2d@mail.gmail.com> On Feb 7, 2008 4:14 PM, Mike McGrath wrote: > K, so its just a case of "they're on the way" :) I look forward to it. My question for you is... where does infrastructure stand in terms of hosting resources for spins. If you had a request for 50 more isos to host... could we do it? -jef From mmcgrath at redhat.com Fri Feb 8 01:27:23 2008 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 19:27:23 -0600 (CST) Subject: Spins, where are they? In-Reply-To: <604aa7910802071720v49851d50m77241ebdb979ad2d@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910802071652w4666d287o12c188297cc169fd@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910802071720v49851d50m77241ebdb979ad2d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Feb 2008, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Feb 7, 2008 4:14 PM, Mike McGrath wrote: > > K, so its just a case of "they're on the way" :) I look forward to it. > > My question for you is... where does infrastructure stand in terms of > hosting resources for spins. If you had a request for 50 more isos to > host... could we do it? > We've got just a bit more then 400G donated in November from one of our sponsors, ServerBeach in preparation for hosting new spins and torrents. -Mike From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Feb 8 08:51:01 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 14:21:01 +0530 Subject: Spins, where are they? In-Reply-To: References: <604aa7910802071652w4666d287o12c188297cc169fd@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910802071720v49851d50m77241ebdb979ad2d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47AC17F5.3070209@fedoraproject.org> Mike McGrath wrote: > On Thu, 7 Feb 2008, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > >> On Feb 7, 2008 4:14 PM, Mike McGrath wrote: >>> K, so its just a case of "they're on the way" :) I look forward to it. >> My question for you is... where does infrastructure stand in terms of >> hosting resources for spins. If you had a request for 50 more isos to >> host... could we do it? >> > > We've got just a bit more then 400G donated in November from one of our > sponsors, ServerBeach in preparation for hosting new spins and torrents. So if you are willing to host them, I have a dozen localized spins and the XFCE spin all approved and waiting for the next step. http://sundaram.fedorapeople.org/spins/ Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Feb 8 08:55:21 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 14:25:21 +0530 Subject: Spins, where are they? In-Reply-To: <604aa7910802071652w4666d287o12c188297cc169fd@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910802071652w4666d287o12c188297cc169fd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47AC18F9.6030100@fedoraproject.org> Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > Looking beyond that.... > And someone was working on a edu spin.. see devel-list archive for a ks file. > Astronomy SIG I believe is working on getting software in the repo so > they can do spin. There is also Fedora Lite, Security Spin and Fedora Art Studio http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ChristophWickert/FedoraLite http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/LukeMacken/SecurityLiveCD http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Artwork/ArtTeamProjects/FedoraArtStudio Some of them are waiting on software to be packaged first so might take some time. Rahul From fedora at leemhuis.info Fri Feb 8 09:03:37 2008 From: fedora at leemhuis.info (Thorsten Leemhuis) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 10:03:37 +0100 Subject: Spins, where are they? In-Reply-To: <47AC18F9.6030100@fedoraproject.org> References: <604aa7910802071652w4666d287o12c188297cc169fd@mail.gmail.com> <47AC18F9.6030100@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <47AC1AE9.3070301@leemhuis.info> On 08.02.2008 09:55, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Jeff Spaleta wrote: >> Looking beyond that.... >> And someone was working on a edu spin.. see devel-list archive for a ks file. >> Astronomy SIG I believe is working on getting software in the repo so >> they can do spin. > There is also Fedora Lite, Security Spin and Fedora Art Studio > [...] And also a Fedora Education Spin: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SebastianDziallas/Education https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-February/msg00410.html Sebastian (a relative new contributer) afaics could need some help/guidance how to go forward with it. He tried to find help on fedora-devel, but besides some discussion ("add this and that" -> "no more space on CD" and "integrate LTSP" -> "no more space on CD" or "make a DVD" -> "no, make a CD" | "make both a CD and a DVD" ) not much happened. CU knurd From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Feb 8 09:20:02 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 14:50:02 +0530 Subject: Spins, where are they? In-Reply-To: <47AC1AE9.3070301@leemhuis.info> References: <604aa7910802071652w4666d287o12c188297cc169fd@mail.gmail.com> <47AC18F9.6030100@fedoraproject.org> <47AC1AE9.3070301@leemhuis.info> Message-ID: <47AC1EC2.9040508@fedoraproject.org> Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > On 08.02.2008 09:55, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> Jeff Spaleta wrote: >>> Looking beyond that.... >>> And someone was working on a edu spin.. see devel-list archive for a ks file. >>> Astronomy SIG I believe is working on getting software in the repo so >>> they can do spin. >> There is also Fedora Lite, Security Spin and Fedora Art Studio >> [...] > > And also a Fedora Education Spin: > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SebastianDziallas/Education > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-February/msg00410.html I didn't add that since Jeff already mentioned it in the mail I replied to. > > Sebastian (a relative new contributer) afaics could need some > help/guidance how to go forward with it. He tried to find help on > fedora-devel, but besides some discussion ("add this and that" -> "no > more space on CD" and "integrate LTSP" -> "no more space on CD" or "make > a DVD" -> "no, make a CD" | "make both a CD and a DVD" ) not much happened. I see the wiki page being updated regularly and answered with a suggestion when asked for help. Not sure what you were expecting to happen. Rahul From fedora at leemhuis.info Fri Feb 8 12:45:32 2008 From: fedora at leemhuis.info (Thorsten Leemhuis) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 13:45:32 +0100 Subject: Spins, where are they? In-Reply-To: <47AC1EC2.9040508@fedoraproject.org> References: <604aa7910802071652w4666d287o12c188297cc169fd@mail.gmail.com> <47AC18F9.6030100@fedoraproject.org> <47AC1AE9.3070301@leemhuis.info> <47AC1EC2.9040508@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <47AC4EEC.7020400@leemhuis.info> On 08.02.2008 10:20, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > >> Sebastian (a relative new contributer) afaics could need some >> help/guidance how to go forward with it. He tried to find help on >> fedora-devel, but besides some discussion ("add this and that" -> "no >> more space on CD" and "integrate LTSP" -> "no more space on CD" or "make >> a DVD" -> "no, make a CD" | "make both a CD and a DVD" ) not much happened. > I see the wiki page being updated regularly and answered with a > suggestion when asked for help. Not sure what you were expecting to happen. He called his spin final in his last mail and between the lines of this and earlier mails I read "I want to see this as official spin in Fedora". Together that means to me: if Fedora wants that spin someone needs to tell him what the next steps are (or in this case: point him to the proper place in the wiki). Until now nobody did. Cu thl From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Feb 8 12:57:47 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 18:27:47 +0530 Subject: Spins, where are they? In-Reply-To: <47AC4EEC.7020400@leemhuis.info> References: <604aa7910802071652w4666d287o12c188297cc169fd@mail.gmail.com> <47AC18F9.6030100@fedoraproject.org> <47AC1AE9.3070301@leemhuis.info> <47AC1EC2.9040508@fedoraproject.org> <47AC4EEC.7020400@leemhuis.info> Message-ID: <47AC51CB.4000904@fedoraproject.org> Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > On 08.02.2008 10:20, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >>> Sebastian (a relative new contributer) afaics could need some >>> help/guidance how to go forward with it. He tried to find help on >>> fedora-devel, but besides some discussion ("add this and that" -> "no >>> more space on CD" and "integrate LTSP" -> "no more space on CD" or "make >>> a DVD" -> "no, make a CD" | "make both a CD and a DVD" ) not much happened. >> I see the wiki page being updated regularly and answered with a >> suggestion when asked for help. Not sure what you were expecting to happen. > > He called his spin final in his last mail and between the lines of this > and earlier mails I read "I want to see this as official spin in > Fedora". Together that means to me: if Fedora wants that spin someone > needs to tell him what the next steps are (or in this case: point him to > the proper place in the wiki). Until now nobody did. I can't find the mail. Feel free to respond with http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/CustomSpins It's faster that way. IMO, that spin probably needs to be merged with the LTSP integration work that is currently progressing rather than released at this stage. Rahul From fedora at leemhuis.info Fri Feb 8 13:08:10 2008 From: fedora at leemhuis.info (Thorsten Leemhuis) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 14:08:10 +0100 Subject: Spins, where are they? In-Reply-To: <47AC51CB.4000904@fedoraproject.org> References: <604aa7910802071652w4666d287o12c188297cc169fd@mail.gmail.com> <47AC18F9.6030100@fedoraproject.org> <47AC1AE9.3070301@leemhuis.info> <47AC1EC2.9040508@fedoraproject.org> <47AC4EEC.7020400@leemhuis.info> <47AC51CB.4000904@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <47AC543A.7010602@leemhuis.info> On 08.02.2008 13:57, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: >> On 08.02.2008 10:20, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >>>> Sebastian (a relative new contributer) afaics could need some >>>> help/guidance how to go forward with it. He tried to find help on >>>> fedora-devel, but besides some discussion ("add this and that" -> "no >>>> more space on CD" and "integrate LTSP" -> "no more space on CD" or "make >>>> a DVD" -> "no, make a CD" | "make both a CD and a DVD" ) not much happened. >>> I see the wiki page being updated regularly and answered with a >>> suggestion when asked for help. Not sure what you were expecting to happen. >> He called his spin final in his last mail and between the lines of this >> and earlier mails I read "I want to see this as official spin in >> Fedora". Together that means to me: if Fedora wants that spin someone >> needs to tell him what the next steps are (or in this case: point him to >> the proper place in the wiki). Until now nobody did. > I can't find the mail. Feel free to respond with Feel free to do that yourself. I'm trying to get out of Fedora, not deeper into it. CU knurd From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Feb 8 13:31:16 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 19:01:16 +0530 Subject: Spins, where are they? In-Reply-To: <47AC543A.7010602@leemhuis.info> References: <604aa7910802071652w4666d287o12c188297cc169fd@mail.gmail.com> <47AC18F9.6030100@fedoraproject.org> <47AC1AE9.3070301@leemhuis.info> <47AC1EC2.9040508@fedoraproject.org> <47AC4EEC.7020400@leemhuis.info> <47AC51CB.4000904@fedoraproject.org> <47AC543A.7010602@leemhuis.info> Message-ID: <47AC59A4.7090400@fedoraproject.org> Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > On 08.02.2008 13:57, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: >>> On 08.02.2008 10:20, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >>>>> Sebastian (a relative new contributer) afaics could need some >>>>> help/guidance how to go forward with it. He tried to find help on >>>>> fedora-devel, but besides some discussion ("add this and that" -> "no >>>>> more space on CD" and "integrate LTSP" -> "no more space on CD" or "make >>>>> a DVD" -> "no, make a CD" | "make both a CD and a DVD" ) not much happened. >>>> I see the wiki page being updated regularly and answered with a >>>> suggestion when asked for help. Not sure what you were expecting to happen. >>> He called his spin final in his last mail and between the lines of this >>> and earlier mails I read "I want to see this as official spin in >>> Fedora". Together that means to me: if Fedora wants that spin someone >>> needs to tell him what the next steps are (or in this case: point him to >>> the proper place in the wiki). Until now nobody did. >> I can't find the mail. Feel free to respond with > > Feel free to do that yourself. I'm trying to get out of Fedora, not > deeper into it. It takes less time to answer the mail than discuss about it here but I have done so nevertheless. Rahul From fedora at leemhuis.info Fri Feb 8 13:45:17 2008 From: fedora at leemhuis.info (Thorsten Leemhuis) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 14:45:17 +0100 Subject: Spins, where are they? In-Reply-To: <47AC59A4.7090400@fedoraproject.org> References: <604aa7910802071652w4666d287o12c188297cc169fd@mail.gmail.com> <47AC18F9.6030100@fedoraproject.org> <47AC1AE9.3070301@leemhuis.info> <47AC1EC2.9040508@fedoraproject.org> <47AC4EEC.7020400@leemhuis.info> <47AC51CB.4000904@fedoraproject.org> <47AC543A.7010602@leemhuis.info> <47AC59A4.7090400@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <47AC5CED.1070004@leemhuis.info> On 08.02.2008 14:31, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: >> On 08.02.2008 13:57, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >>> Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: >>>> On 08.02.2008 10:20, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >>>>>> Sebastian (a relative new contributer) afaics could need some >>>>>> help/guidance how to go forward with it. He tried to find help on >>>>>> fedora-devel, but besides some discussion ("add this and that" -> "no >>>>>> more space on CD" and "integrate LTSP" -> "no more space on CD" or "make >>>>>> a DVD" -> "no, make a CD" | "make both a CD and a DVD" ) not much happened. >>>>> I see the wiki page being updated regularly and answered with a >>>>> suggestion when asked for help. Not sure what you were expecting to happen. >>>> He called his spin final in his last mail and between the lines of this >>>> and earlier mails I read "I want to see this as official spin in >>>> Fedora". Together that means to me: if Fedora wants that spin someone >>>> needs to tell him what the next steps are (or in this case: point him to >>>> the proper place in the wiki). Until now nobody did. >>> I can't find the mail. Feel free to respond with >> Feel free to do that yourself. I'm trying to get out of Fedora, not >> deeper into it. > It takes less time to answer the mail than discuss about it here but I > have done so nevertheless. Fully agreed. But the point I'm trying to make is: new contributers like Sebastian need some guidance / hand holding to find their way into the project. The EDU spin is a good example for that, as the discussion on the list was a typical one -- one says "make a CD" and the next "make a DVD". One says "integrate LTSP, even if it means waiting" the other "do it now". One says "foo" the other the opposite. That's sometimes to much to handle new contributers. In the fedora.us and Fedora Extras days people often got guidance or a helpful hand from experienced contributers. It seems that often not the case these days in Fedora-land, and that's one of the reasons why I'm trying to take a Fedora break or find my way out of it (not sure what it'll become; time will tell). Cu knurd From rdieter at math.unl.edu Fri Feb 8 13:54:09 2008 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 07:54:09 -0600 Subject: Spins, where are they? In-Reply-To: <47AC5CED.1070004@leemhuis.info> References: <604aa7910802071652w4666d287o12c188297cc169fd@mail.gmail.com> <47AC18F9.6030100@fedoraproject.org> <47AC1AE9.3070301@leemhuis.info> <47AC1EC2.9040508@fedoraproject.org> <47AC4EEC.7020400@leemhuis.info> <47AC51CB.4000904@fedoraproject.org> <47AC543A.7010602@leemhuis.info> <47AC59A4.7090400@fedoraproject.org> <47AC5CED.1070004@leemhuis.info> Message-ID: <47AC5F01.6050006@math.unl.edu> Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > In the fedora.us and Fedora Extras days people often got guidance or a > helpful hand from experienced contributers. It seems that often not the > case these days in Fedora-land... The project is growing and getting much larger fast, so your (allow me to greatly paraphrase) "it's a small town where everyone knows and helps everybody" notion doesn't (seem to?) scale. That doesn't mean we don't all keep working hard and trying to things to improve, but I only wanted to highlight that your expectations, especially comparing to how things worked in the past, may not be entirely realistic. -- Rex From mmcgrath at redhat.com Fri Feb 8 14:46:17 2008 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 08:46:17 -0600 (CST) Subject: Spins, where are they? In-Reply-To: <47AC17F5.3070209@fedoraproject.org> References: <604aa7910802071652w4666d287o12c188297cc169fd@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910802071720v49851d50m77241ebdb979ad2d@mail.gmail.com> <47AC17F5.3070209@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Feb 2008, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Mike McGrath wrote: > > On Thu, 7 Feb 2008, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > > > > On Feb 7, 2008 4:14 PM, Mike McGrath wrote: > > > > K, so its just a case of "they're on the way" :) I look forward to it. > > > My question for you is... where does infrastructure stand in terms of > > > hosting resources for spins. If you had a request for 50 more isos to > > > host... could we do it? > > > > > > > We've got just a bit more then 400G donated in November from one of our > > sponsors, ServerBeach in preparation for hosting new spins and torrents. > > So if you are willing to host them, I have a dozen localized spins and the > XFCE spin all approved and waiting for the next step. > > http://sundaram.fedorapeople.org/spins/ > The process is designed so that infrastructure actually isn't involved at all. The process is very well documented, notice we're not middle-men in that list at all. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/CustomSpins -Mike From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Feb 8 15:01:03 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 20:31:03 +0530 Subject: Spins, where are they? In-Reply-To: References: <604aa7910802071652w4666d287o12c188297cc169fd@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910802071720v49851d50m77241ebdb979ad2d@mail.gmail.com> <47AC17F5.3070209@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <47AC6EAF.3030900@fedoraproject.org> Mike McGrath wrote: > The process is designed so that infrastructure actually isn't involved at > all. The process is very well documented, notice we're not middle-men in > that list at all. > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/CustomSpins I am well aware of the written procedure after gone through it so many times but in practice it has generated a lot of discussion about how it is supposed to be handled and it hasn't quite worked out like it has been documented. I think we are still in the process of figuring out the optimal workflow. Rahul From sebastian at when.com Fri Feb 8 16:44:22 2008 From: sebastian at when.com (sebastian at when.com) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 17:44:22 +0100 Subject: Fedora Education Spin / SIG Message-ID: <47AC86E6.4080001@when.com> Hi everybody, I am currently preparing an education spin for Fedora (https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SebastianDziallas/Education). Recently, I have submitted the kickstart file to release engineering. On FDL, there is currently a discussion on forming an education SIG. https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-February/msg00459.html In my opinion, a SIG would probably help to get the people together. Jesse also said, that he would prefer an SIG rather than only a kickstart file. https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-February/msg00466.html So, what do you think about this? And if we form a SIG, how would this work? How about posting the information for the general mission statement and the plan of action here? Sebastian From gdk at redhat.com Fri Feb 8 16:58:22 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 11:58:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: Fedora Education Spin / SIG In-Reply-To: <47AC86E6.4080001@when.com> References: <47AC86E6.4080001@when.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Feb 2008, sebastian at when.com wrote: > Hi everybody, > > I am currently preparing an education spin for Fedora > (https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SebastianDziallas/Education). Recently, I > have submitted the kickstart file to release engineering. On FDL, there is > currently a discussion on forming an education SIG. > > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-February/msg00459.html > > In my opinion, a SIG would probably help to get the people together. Jesse > also said, that he would prefer an SIG rather than only a kickstart file. > > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-February/msg00466.html > > So, what do you think about this? And if we form a SIG, how would this work? > How about posting the information for the general mission statement and the > plan of action here? Feel free to join, and then perhaps take over, this list: http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-education-list This list was originally created for this purpose, except it was based more around the goal of integrating K12LTSP into Fedora. Warren Togami and Eric Harrison continue to work towards that goal, but the list itself doesn't see much traffic. So feel free to repurpose it for your use. --g -- Greg DeKoenigsberg Community Development Manager Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255 "To whomsoever much hath been given... ...from him much shall be asked" From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Feb 8 17:19:03 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 08:19:03 -0900 Subject: Spins, where are they? In-Reply-To: <47AC6EAF.3030900@fedoraproject.org> References: <604aa7910802071652w4666d287o12c188297cc169fd@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910802071720v49851d50m77241ebdb979ad2d@mail.gmail.com> <47AC17F5.3070209@fedoraproject.org> <47AC6EAF.3030900@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <604aa7910802080919h5e0485aclc2d27f1d26451149@mail.gmail.com> On Feb 8, 2008 6:01 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > I am well aware of the written procedure after gone through it so many > times but in practice it has generated a lot of discussion about how it > is supposed to be handled and it hasn't quite worked out like it has > been documented. I think we are still in the process of figuring out the > optimal workflow. Indeed. I'll be talking to you tomorrow about your Spin Process Draft. -jef From mspevack at redhat.com Fri Feb 8 19:17:48 2008 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 14:17:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: codec buddy, fluendo, etc. Message-ID: This email is about several topics at once: (1) CodecBuddy was a Board-level decision that was made with the understanding that after it had been in Fedora for a while, we would evaluate the various pros and cons of how it was going and figure out if it should stay in, be removed, or be modified. (2) I hear anecdotally that the folks over at Fluendo would enjoy having more open conversations with us about CodecBuddy, and how it could be improved to make the Fedora experience of it better. These conversations could/should be held in public. (3) fedora-devel-list is having some reasonably heated discussions about the precedents set by the CodecBuddy decisions, and how they do (or don't) translate into things like open game engines packaged into Fedora which have the ability to download levels or data that are closed source, versus open game engines in Fedora that download levels or data that are also open. https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-February/msg00476.html https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-February/msg00365.html (4) One of the things that Board has recently said is that it would like to start having a public meeting once a month to address some of the issues that are getting play in various parts of our community. I think we have an opportunity here to address all 4 of these topics at once, in one or more IRC conversations. Specific questions to be answered: 0. Invite the Fluendo folks to join. 1. What is good about Codec Buddy? 2. What improvements would we like to see in Codec Buddy and/or codeina? 3. Are there any license, legal, or "open source morality" concerns that need to be addressed? 4. What is the plan for Codec Buddy and Codeina going forward? Separate, but related: 4. How do we address the questions and debates raised on the fedora-devel-list threads above? ------ If folks would like to break these topics down into further detail via email, that is great. But as this has potential to be a thread of decent length, and as it is about several topics that are all somewhat related, I think it's important to try to keep in mind the specific problems/questions that we are trying to address. Just starting the conversation.... not really advocating any one position or another right now.... --Max From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Fri Feb 8 19:19:37 2008 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 14:19:37 -0500 Subject: codec buddy, fluendo, etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1202498377.2593.39.camel@cutter> On Fri, 2008-02-08 at 14:17 -0500, Max Spevack wrote: > This email is about several topics at once: > > (1) CodecBuddy was a Board-level decision that was made with the > understanding that after it had been in Fedora for a while, we would > evaluate the various pros and cons of how it was going and figure out if > it should stay in, be removed, or be modified. > > (2) I hear anecdotally that the folks over at Fluendo would enjoy > having more open conversations with us about CodecBuddy, and how it > could be improved to make the Fedora experience of it better. These > conversations could/should be held in public. > > (3) fedora-devel-list is having some reasonably heated discussions about > the precedents set by the CodecBuddy decisions, and how they do (or > don't) translate into things like open game engines packaged into Fedora > which have the ability to download levels or data that are closed > source, versus open game engines in Fedora that download levels or data > that are also open. > > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-February/msg00476.html > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-February/msg00365.html > > (4) One of the things that Board has recently said is that it would like > to start having a public meeting once a month to address some of the > issues that are getting play in various parts of our community. > > I think we have an opportunity here to address all 4 of these topics at > once, in one or more IRC conversations. > > Specific questions to be answered: > > 0. Invite the Fluendo folks to join. This is a bad idea and it looks like collusion. > 1. What is good about Codec Buddy? It puts us into a precarious political and ethical situation. So I see very little good from it at this point. > 2. What improvements would we like to see in Codec Buddy and/or > codeina? I think we probably need to consider removing it. > 3. Are there any license, legal, or "open source morality" concerns > that need to be addressed? Yes, All of the above. Not only that but it makes it harder for us to take a stand on other issues. Like googleearth, for example. -sv From gdk at redhat.com Fri Feb 8 19:28:05 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 14:28:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: codec buddy, fluendo, etc. In-Reply-To: <1202498377.2593.39.camel@cutter> References: <1202498377.2593.39.camel@cutter> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Feb 2008, seth vidal wrote: >> Specific questions to be answered: >> >> 0. Invite the Fluendo folks to join. > > This is a bad idea and it looks like collusion. Wait... what? Explain this, because I don't see how transparent discussions about user experience equal "collusion". > It puts us into a precarious political and ethical situation. So I see > very little good from it at this point. That's your opinion. There are others. >> 2. What improvements would we like to see in Codec Buddy and/or >> codeina? > > I think we probably need to consider removing it. I think we need to keep it and make it more useful. >> 3. Are there any license, legal, or "open source morality" concerns >> that need to be addressed? > > Yes, All of the above. Not only that but it makes it harder for us to > take a stand on other issues. Like googleearth, for example. I completely disagree with you. --g -- Greg DeKoenigsberg Community Development Manager Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255 "To whomsoever much hath been given... ...from him much shall be asked" From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Fri Feb 8 19:30:34 2008 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 14:30:34 -0500 Subject: codec buddy, fluendo, etc. In-Reply-To: References: <1202498377.2593.39.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1202499034.2593.46.camel@cutter> On Fri, 2008-02-08 at 14:28 -0500, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > On Fri, 8 Feb 2008, seth vidal wrote: > > >> Specific questions to be answered: > >> > >> 0. Invite the Fluendo folks to join. > > > > This is a bad idea and it looks like collusion. > > Wait... what? Explain this, because I don't see how transparent > discussions about user experience equal "collusion". do we invite gnome developers to discussion about gnome in the distro? Not generally. > > It puts us into a precarious political and ethical situation. So I see > > very little good from it at this point. > > That's your opinion. There are others. Was there some confusion about whom I was speaking for? It's always my opinion. Cmon, Greg, you know this. -sv From poelstra at redhat.com Fri Feb 8 19:51:45 2008 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 11:51:45 -0800 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2008-FEB-06 Message-ID: <47ACB2D1.5080708@redhat.com> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/Meetings/2008-02-06 == Roll Call == Attendees: Seth Vidal, Paul Frields, Max Spevack, Karsten Wade, John Poelstra, Chris Aillon, Matt Domsch, Steve Dickson, Bill Nottingham Regrets: Jef Spaleta, Bob McWirther, Dennis Gilmore == Followup to Previous Business == === Approving XFCE spin (2008-01-29) === * http://sundaram.fedorapeople.org/livecd-fedora-8-xfce.ks * ACTION: Board approves the XFCE spin and Seth will get back to Rahul directly if he finds any problems * OWNER: Seth Vidal == New Business == === More Discussion of Board Goals === * Board goals (Paul Frields) * helping Project achieve broad vision; what else? * my biggest ticket item in broad terms for foreseeable future: 1. better volunteer management--seriously lowering barriers 1. increasing stickiness 1. training 1. etc. * Q.v. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PaulWFrields/BridgingTheGap/Abstract * How can we grow a bigger contributor (versus casual user) base * Could our ''user base'' level contributor growth be tapped out? * How could Fedora reach out more to commercial (corporate) users? * What about a user space application that launches to help users get started? * OWNER: Paul Frields === Fedora Account System === * Continues to be a major barrier to entry * Recent addition of Red Hat marketing people to Fedora was a painful example of how difficult sign-up process is for non-technical people * If next year we plan to focus on community growth this will be a large problem * Need to be able to measure growth in community quantitatively * account system gives us ability to measure some level of participation * FAS2 (Fedora Account System v2) is scheduled to be done before the start of Beta * OWNER: Paul Frields * ACTIONS: 1. Invite Mike McGrath to visit next board meeting and give an update 1. Can we separate out who needs gpg keys and ssh keys? 1. Are we using the CLA for restricting things where it is not necessary? 1. Evaluate usability for meeting goals of easier sign-up === Community Architecture Update === * Max Spevack, Jack Aboutboul, Greg Dekoenigsberg are a newly formed team inside Red Hat * Selling Fedora and community vision to Red Hat Marketing VP * Committing to monthly report to fedora-advisory-board * Fiscal Year 2009 Budget appears to be on track * Meeting with new Red Hat CEO to present plans * Hiring a group of interns during the summer to work on Fedora * measurable metrics for each intern tied to a specific goal in annual plan === fedora-board-list === * Recalibrating list membership to only include Fedora Project Leader, current board members, and board secretary * Make sure conversations involving others happen on fedora-advisory-board-list * OWNERS: Max Spevack & Paul Frields * ACTIONS: 1. Remove ineligible members 1. Set list owner to Paul Frields == Future Business (discuss at a future meeting) == === Google Start Page Update === * Project changing ownership within Red Hat to Greg Dekoenigsberg * Have Greg make presentation to Fedora Board in two weeks * OWNER: Karsten Wade === Post-release updates of custom spins (2008-01-29) === * Should the board have to approve them? * We will hosts as many spins as we have space for * Need to determine the hosting requirements and limits * How long will spins stay around? * http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/RahulSundaram/SpinsProcess * ACTION: Jef to review Rahul's proposal and report back to board * OWNER: Jef Spaleta === Next Meeting === * 2 PM EST * Tuesday, 2008-02-12 From jonstanley at gmail.com Fri Feb 8 20:01:45 2008 From: jonstanley at gmail.com (Jon Stanley) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 15:01:45 -0500 Subject: codec buddy, fluendo, etc. In-Reply-To: <1202499034.2593.46.camel@cutter> References: <1202498377.2593.39.camel@cutter> <1202499034.2593.46.camel@cutter> Message-ID: On Feb 8, 2008 2:30 PM, seth vidal wrote: > do we invite gnome developers to discussion about gnome in the distro? > Not generally. Nothing stops them from joining in the discussion, does it? I think what we're saying to the Fluendo folks here is "hey, we're having a discussion. Come join if you want to". Someone correct me if I'm wrong. From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Feb 8 20:04:51 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 11:04:51 -0900 Subject: codec buddy, fluendo, etc. In-Reply-To: <1202499034.2593.46.camel@cutter> References: <1202498377.2593.39.camel@cutter> <1202499034.2593.46.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <604aa7910802081204m267c19c5hec7c56c013026b1f@mail.gmail.com> On Feb 8, 2008 10:30 AM, seth vidal wrote: > do we invite gnome developers to discussion about gnome in the distro? > Not generally. Do we have a significant problem with gnome as it is in the distro? I've no problem making an extra effort at inviting people I think are stakeholders to a discussion about addressing a problem. I don't think the board should be restrained from doing it either. If its an open forum, even if its structured, in terms of how people que up to speak, inviting stakeholders to participate certainty isn't collusion. I can't see how we have a legit open discussion about this unless fluendo's pov is represented. It's not like we can ignore the fact that the biggest problem with codeina as we implement it is the ready access to the for-pay stuff fluendo offers. Not just in terms of project policy, but also technically. Aren't the fluendo items running afoul of default selinux settings because they are using intel's compiler? > > > > It puts us into a precarious political and ethical situation. So I see > > > very little good from it at this point. I'll make a bolder statement... there is very little good associated with any issue involving patent encumbered codecs or data formats generally. I don't care what we do, we're not going to end up with a good outcome. I'd like to actually have something like miro in fedora, making use of codeina, so that we can actually have a constructive forward looking conversation with miro and its sponsors about going the next step and actually helping to produce good open format editting tools to start bootstrapping our way out of this frelling mess. I'm very unhappy on where miro stance on 'format wars' They've taken a complete pass on the very issue. If we take a complete pass as well, we'll give developers in this space a reason to ignore us. The whole thing blows big monkey chunks. The fact that you need this crap to make flash usable is going to be an increasing more and more painful, because in the bright kickass future of web 2.0 and online desktop....we are screwed because flash is an integral part of this stuff when it comes to video. What if codeina was reworked such that by default we only made no-cost items available by default after the education page? What if codeina was reworked such that different service providers could drop in support for their codecs? For example, so that livna/rpmfusion could configure codeina when the release rpm was installed? If the Fluendo can task people to halp make those sorts of changes isn't worth inviting them to a discussion? -jef From a.badger at gmail.com Fri Feb 8 20:07:04 2008 From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 12:07:04 -0800 Subject: codec buddy, fluendo, etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47ACB668.5030907@gmail.com> Max Spevack wrote: > > 0. Invite the Fluendo folks to join. As Seth said, we want to avoid the appearance of cutting a deal. This would be somewhat alleviated if there were other legal alternatives that could be incorporated. > 1. What is good about Codec Buddy? The things I like about codec buddy are: 1) it gives us a chance to educate users on why we don't ship these codecs. 2) It allows us to do something that points the user in the right direction rather than simply failing and giving the impression that what they've done is simply impossible to do with Fedora. OTOH there are at least some users that don't read or understand our reasons so this might be a salve to our conscience but no real help to the end-user. > 2. What improvements would we like to see in Codec Buddy and/or codeina? My number one gripe is that there's no help for people who can get codecs where they are not patented. As a minimal step, mentioning that the patents don't exist everywhere and that free software implementations do exist would make me feel better. However, that is only going to be helpful to more advanced users who will read that and know that they can turn to google for help. We need to come up with questions for the lawyers that determine just how far we can push the envelope. (Can we add the wording I mention? Can we point people to a specific google search?) > 3. Are there any license, legal, or "open source morality" concerns > that need to be addressed? > This issue is all about legality and morality :-/ I think Seth's point that being able to sanely argue against including other downloaders that lie exclusively in the proprietary realm (Google Earth) is important. I can see several criteria that could be used but they aren't as simple to apply. (OTOH, our present stance is often characterized as "Open source yes, proprietary no" when there are other complicating aspects like legality and "makes maintaining the kernel harder" involved as well.) Some criteria that separates GoogleEarth from CodecBuddy: 1) Does an open source implementation exist but we are otherwise prevented from including it? 2) Do we think we might have a chance to affect the decisions of the license/copyright holders by keeping the software out of Fedora? 3) Could it be considered an "essential" portion of using a computer by our users? 4) Is there any way to migrate our users to open source solutions without using something like this? Additional separation with autodownloader: 5) Code vs content > 4. What is the plan for Codec Buddy and Codeina going forward? > > Separate, but related: > > 4. How do we address the questions and debates raised on the > fedora-devel-list threads above? > Some of the fedora-devel-list thread are just plain misinformed of the facts (legally including certain codecs). Other parts (the Google Earth part) has resolved itself for now. The last part (Game Autodownloader) is a poor fit for our goals but does fit within most of the constraints and was reviewed by FESCo in the past (although there seems to be some confusion over what individual FESCo members thought they were agreeing to.) Personally, I think that the autodownloader satisfies a number of the criteria that are outlined above so I'm not against it but I'm not on the Board or FESCo at this point. -Toshio -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Fri Feb 8 20:06:14 2008 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 15:06:14 -0500 Subject: codec buddy, fluendo, etc. In-Reply-To: References: <1202498377.2593.39.camel@cutter> <1202499034.2593.46.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1202501174.2593.53.camel@cutter> On Fri, 2008-02-08 at 15:01 -0500, Jon Stanley wrote: > On Feb 8, 2008 2:30 PM, seth vidal wrote: > > > do we invite gnome developers to discussion about gnome in the distro? > > Not generally. > > Nothing stops them from joining in the discussion, does it? I think > what we're saying to the Fluendo folks here is "hey, we're having a > discussion. Come join if you want to". Someone correct me if I'm > wrong. > A little clarity. I read the list wrong. I thought this was the board list not advisory-board list. That's my bad. If we had privately asked fluendo people to come to a private board meeting then I'd be much more unhappy about it than a public meeting. My fault. mea culpa. -sv From notting at redhat.com Fri Feb 8 20:18:29 2008 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 15:18:29 -0500 Subject: codec buddy, fluendo, etc. In-Reply-To: <604aa7910802081204m267c19c5hec7c56c013026b1f@mail.gmail.com> References: <1202498377.2593.39.camel@cutter> <1202499034.2593.46.camel@cutter> <604aa7910802081204m267c19c5hec7c56c013026b1f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080208201829.GA20235@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Jeff Spaleta (jspaleta at gmail.com) said: > What if codeina was reworked such that different service providers > could drop in support for their codecs? For example, so that > livna/rpmfusion could configure codeina when the release rpm was > installed? *This* is the answer you're looking for, IMO. > If the Fluendo can task people to halp make those sorts of changes > isn't worth inviting them to a discussion? They've been amenable to this, and it is on their feature list of things to do. I do not know the status of this, but, having poked codeina, I can think of two or three ways to accomplish it. Bill From mclasen at redhat.com Fri Feb 8 20:20:14 2008 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 15:20:14 -0500 Subject: codec buddy, fluendo, etc. In-Reply-To: <1202499034.2593.46.camel@cutter> References: <1202498377.2593.39.camel@cutter> <1202499034.2593.46.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1202502014.5436.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2008-02-08 at 14:30 -0500, seth vidal wrote: > On Fri, 2008-02-08 at 14:28 -0500, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > On Fri, 8 Feb 2008, seth vidal wrote: > > > > >> Specific questions to be answered: > > >> > > >> 0. Invite the Fluendo folks to join. > > > > > > This is a bad idea and it looks like collusion. > > > > Wait... what? Explain this, because I don't see how transparent > > discussions about user experience equal "collusion". > > do we invite gnome developers to discussion about gnome in the distro? > Not generally. I beg your pardon ? I would ask you to reconsider that position. You may be a member of the board, but you are not the ruler who takes decisions above the heads of the affected people. From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Feb 8 20:24:49 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 11:24:49 -0900 Subject: codec buddy, fluendo, etc. In-Reply-To: <1202502014.5436.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1202498377.2593.39.camel@cutter> <1202499034.2593.46.camel@cutter> <1202502014.5436.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <604aa7910802081224x480b1933nf3d4b81b3ee20a4a@mail.gmail.com> On Feb 8, 2008 11:20 AM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > I beg your pardon ? I would ask you to reconsider that position. You may > be a member of the board, but you are not the ruler who takes decisions > above the heads of the affected people. I think seth's last post cleared up the miscommunication. He thought this was an email to the private board-list. So in that context his comment makes perfect sense. He doesn't want a private discussion, or even a private discussion about having an open discussion. I'm in agreement with that. -jef From notting at redhat.com Fri Feb 8 20:26:36 2008 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 15:26:36 -0500 Subject: codec buddy, fluendo, etc. In-Reply-To: <47ACB668.5030907@gmail.com> References: <47ACB668.5030907@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080208202635.GB20235@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Toshio Kuratomi (a.badger at gmail.com) said: >> 2. What improvements would we like to see in Codec Buddy and/or codeina? > > My number one gripe is that there's no help for people who can get codecs > where they are not patented. As a minimal step, mentioning that the > patents don't exist everywhere and that free software implementations do > exist would make me feel better. However, that is only going to be helpful > to more advanced users who will read that and know that they can turn to > google for help. We need to come up with questions for the lawyers that > determine just how far we can push the envelope. (Can we add the wording I > mention? Can we point people to a specific google search?) Spot has been through this a few times, as far as I recall. I believe the wording is that we are allowed to mention sites that host software that 'for whatever reasons' Fedora cannot include. We can not go into specifics as to what that software is, how that relates to why we can't include it, etc., which makes linking to it directly from any CodecBuddy notifications pretty much impossible; that's why we don't have any such links on the wiki right now. As a tangential point - codec buddy falls into a different concept of code vs. content. Autodownloader data is free (beer) restricted, content for use with free (speech) code. The fluendo plugins are restricted (free (beer) in the MP3 case) code for use with potentially free (beer, speech) content. Bill From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Fri Feb 8 20:24:28 2008 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 15:24:28 -0500 Subject: codec buddy, fluendo, etc. In-Reply-To: <1202502014.5436.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1202498377.2593.39.camel@cutter> <1202499034.2593.46.camel@cutter> <1202502014.5436.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1202502268.2593.57.camel@cutter> On Fri, 2008-02-08 at 15:20 -0500, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Fri, 2008-02-08 at 14:30 -0500, seth vidal wrote: > > On Fri, 2008-02-08 at 14:28 -0500, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > > On Fri, 8 Feb 2008, seth vidal wrote: > > > > > > >> Specific questions to be answered: > > > >> > > > >> 0. Invite the Fluendo folks to join. > > > > > > > > This is a bad idea and it looks like collusion. > > > > > > Wait... what? Explain this, because I don't see how transparent > > > discussions about user experience equal "collusion". > > > > do we invite gnome developers to discussion about gnome in the distro? > > Not generally. > > I beg your pardon ? I would ask you to reconsider that position. You may > be a member of the board, but you are not the ruler who takes decisions > above the heads of the affected people. > okay, I'm deeply confused here. This is the second time today that someone has taken an email from me as a declaration from on high. Is there a tagline being appended to my emails that says "and yes, I speak for everyone and everything in all cases, no matter what?" Is there some reason why people think I'm speaking for anyone other than myself? Does my email address says "seth vidal fedora board member - all my pronouncements are equivalent to edicts from the FPL"? No, it doesn't. the only person I represent is me. -sv From mclasen at redhat.com Fri Feb 8 20:28:38 2008 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 15:28:38 -0500 Subject: codec buddy, fluendo, etc. In-Reply-To: <604aa7910802081224x480b1933nf3d4b81b3ee20a4a@mail.gmail.com> References: <1202498377.2593.39.camel@cutter> <1202499034.2593.46.camel@cutter> <1202502014.5436.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910802081224x480b1933nf3d4b81b3ee20a4a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1202502518.5436.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2008-02-08 at 11:24 -0900, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Feb 8, 2008 11:20 AM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > I beg your pardon ? I would ask you to reconsider that position. You may > > be a member of the board, but you are not the ruler who takes decisions > > above the heads of the affected people. > > > I think seth's last post cleared up the miscommunication. He thought > this was an email to the private board-list. So in that context his > comment makes perfect sense. He doesn't want a private discussion, or > even a private discussion about having an open discussion. I'm in > agreement with that. Yes, I noticed. From mspevack at redhat.com Fri Feb 8 20:30:27 2008 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 15:30:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: codec buddy, fluendo, etc. In-Reply-To: <1202502014.5436.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1202498377.2593.39.camel@cutter> <1202499034.2593.46.camel@cutter> <1202502014.5436.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Feb 2008, Matthias Clasen wrote: >> do we invite gnome developers to discussion about gnome in the >> distro? Not generally. > > I beg your pardon ? I would ask you to reconsider that position. You > may be a member of the board, but you are not the ruler who takes > decisions above the heads of the affected people. I think we should let this particular sub-thread just die off. The very fact that this thread was started on fedora-advisory-board demonstrates that we want the discussion to be open to anyone who wants to participate in it. --Max From gdk at redhat.com Fri Feb 8 20:35:58 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 15:35:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: codec buddy, fluendo, etc. In-Reply-To: <1202499034.2593.46.camel@cutter> References: <1202498377.2593.39.camel@cutter> <1202499034.2593.46.camel@cutter> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Feb 2008, seth vidal wrote: > > On Fri, 2008-02-08 at 14:28 -0500, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: >> On Fri, 8 Feb 2008, seth vidal wrote: >> >>>> Specific questions to be answered: >>>> >>>> 0. Invite the Fluendo folks to join. >>> >>> This is a bad idea and it looks like collusion. >> >> Wait... what? Explain this, because I don't see how transparent >> discussions about user experience equal "collusion". > > do we invite gnome developers to discussion about gnome in the distro? > Not generally. ...so isn't that kind of a problem? If the GNOME folks came to us and said "we want to make GNOME on Fedora a better experience," would that be in any way problematic? >>> It puts us into a precarious political and ethical situation. So I see >>> very little good from it at this point. >> >> That's your opinion. There are others. > > Was there some confusion about whom I was speaking for? It's always my > opinion. Cmon, Greg, you know this. Sorry. It sounded like you thought the discussion itself would do very little good. Miscommunication. --g -- Greg DeKoenigsberg Community Development Manager Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255 "To whomsoever much hath been given... ...from him much shall be asked" From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Feb 8 20:36:03 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 11:36:03 -0900 Subject: codec buddy, fluendo, etc. In-Reply-To: <1202502268.2593.57.camel@cutter> References: <1202498377.2593.39.camel@cutter> <1202499034.2593.46.camel@cutter> <1202502014.5436.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1202502268.2593.57.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <604aa7910802081236v6b426493hdd352096a3b233f1@mail.gmail.com> On Feb 8, 2008 11:24 AM, seth vidal wrote: > Does my email address says "seth vidal fedora board member - all my > pronouncements are equivalent to edicts from the FPL"? > > No, it doesn't. > > the only person I represent is me. I'm more upset that people don't make the same assumption for me. I'm throwing out personal opinions couched in the language of royal edict all the time. I even puff myself up, don a crown, slip on all of my big school rings that I own, and put on a purple robe when I write them... or i should say dictate them to my scribe. I guess I'm just gonna have to start using the royal we when I speak from now on. -jef"my royal scepter is a wii-mote"spaleta From smooge at gmail.com Fri Feb 8 20:50:20 2008 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 13:50:20 -0700 Subject: codec buddy, fluendo, etc. In-Reply-To: <1202502268.2593.57.camel@cutter> References: <1202498377.2593.39.camel@cutter> <1202499034.2593.46.camel@cutter> <1202502014.5436.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1202502268.2593.57.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <80d7e4090802081250p41ae1012xbd693721bda53eab@mail.gmail.com> On Feb 8, 2008 1:24 PM, seth vidal wrote: > > On Fri, 2008-02-08 at 15:20 -0500, Matthias Clasen wrote: > > On Fri, 2008-02-08 at 14:30 -0500, seth vidal wrote: > > > On Fri, 2008-02-08 at 14:28 -0500, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > > > On Fri, 8 Feb 2008, seth vidal wrote: > > > > > > > > >> Specific questions to be answered: > > > > >> > > > > >> 0. Invite the Fluendo folks to join. > > > > > > > > > > This is a bad idea and it looks like collusion. > > > > > > > > Wait... what? Explain this, because I don't see how transparent > > > > discussions about user experience equal "collusion". > > > > > > do we invite gnome developers to discussion about gnome in the distro? > > > Not generally. > > > > I beg your pardon ? I would ask you to reconsider that position. You may > > be a member of the board, but you are not the ruler who takes decisions > > above the heads of the affected people. > > > > okay, I'm deeply confused here. This is the second time today that > someone has taken an email from me as a declaration from on high. > > Is there a tagline being appended to my emails that says "and yes, I > speak for everyone and everything in all cases, no matter what?" > > Is there some reason why people think I'm speaking for anyone other than > myself? > > Does my email address says "seth vidal fedora board member - all my > pronouncements are equivalent to edicts from the FPL"? > > No, it doesn't. > > the only person I represent is me. > An issue with any 'elected' or appointed member is that most people do not see their views as just representing themselves. They see it as representing the entities that elected or appointed them to that position. I think the current explanation is that it comes with the brain trying to deal with large segments of data by depersonifying the representative (you are supposed to represent my views to the board, and when you do not you must be acting under the sway of some other force). It seems deeply wired in the brain with the usual partisan switches and such that make for people to work in clans/tribes/etc versus just killing and eating each other like we really would like to do. I think because of this, it is always better for an elected or appointed person to label when they are speaking as a representative or as their own personal selves. The statement helps to clarify the mental image that one makes when reading. Is the writer talking about their own opinion (somewhat threatening to the inner Oook inside us all) or are they representing a vast horde of invading Cannibalistic tofu eaters bent on devouring the reader (Oook get ready to fight or flee). -- Stephen J Smoogen. -- CSIRT/Linux System Administrator How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice" From smooge at gmail.com Fri Feb 8 20:51:35 2008 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 13:51:35 -0700 Subject: codec buddy, fluendo, etc. In-Reply-To: <604aa7910802081236v6b426493hdd352096a3b233f1@mail.gmail.com> References: <1202498377.2593.39.camel@cutter> <1202499034.2593.46.camel@cutter> <1202502014.5436.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1202502268.2593.57.camel@cutter> <604aa7910802081236v6b426493hdd352096a3b233f1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <80d7e4090802081251l200ff38clbaad27f7ecb1b62f@mail.gmail.com> On Feb 8, 2008 1:36 PM, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Feb 8, 2008 11:24 AM, seth vidal wrote: > > Does my email address says "seth vidal fedora board member - all my > > pronouncements are equivalent to edicts from the FPL"? > > > > No, it doesn't. > > > > the only person I represent is me. > > I'm more upset that people don't make the same assumption for me. I'm > throwing out personal opinions couched in the language of royal edict > all the time. > > I even puff myself up, don a crown, slip on all of my big school rings > that I own, and put on a purple robe when I write them... or i should > say dictate them to my scribe. > > I guess I'm just gonna have to start using the royal we when I speak > from now on. > > -jef"my royal scepter is a wii-mote"spaleta that should be "our royal scepter is a Wii-mote." A bit more training and you will have it. -- Stephen J Smoogen. -- CSIRT/Linux System Administrator How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice" From kwade at redhat.com Sat Feb 9 04:42:09 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 20:42:09 -0800 Subject: codec buddy, fluendo, etc. In-Reply-To: <20080208202635.GB20235@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <47ACB668.5030907@gmail.com> <20080208202635.GB20235@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1202532129.7709.13.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Fri, 2008-02-08 at 15:26 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Toshio Kuratomi (a.badger at gmail.com) said: > >> 2. What improvements would we like to see in Codec Buddy and/or codeina? > > > > My number one gripe is that there's no help for people who can get codecs > > where they are not patented. As a minimal step, mentioning that the > > patents don't exist everywhere and that free software implementations do > > exist would make me feel better. However, that is only going to be helpful > > to more advanced users who will read that and know that they can turn to > > google for help. We need to come up with questions for the lawyers that > > determine just how far we can push the envelope. (Can we add the wording I > > mention? Can we point people to a specific google search?) > > Spot has been through this a few times, as far as I recall. I believe > the wording is that we are allowed to mention sites that host software > that 'for whatever reasons' Fedora cannot include. We can not go into > specifics as to what that software is, how that relates to why we can't > include it, etc., which makes linking to it directly from any CodecBuddy > notifications pretty much impossible; that's why we don't have any such > links on the wiki right now. As for the question about the specific Google search, I've asked about that in the past, and it links in to what Bill said. You can see the best example of what we are allowed to say here: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ForbiddenItems From the second to last paragraph in the Summary: The Fedora Project FAQ and the more informal, unofficial http://fedorafaq.org provide useful answers on commonly asked questions. However, the unofficial site is not associated with or supported by the Fedora Project. You can find many interesting things using a search engine like Google. OtherRepositories might contain software that has been not been included in the official Fedora repository. The interesting phrase being, "You can find many interesting things using a search engine like Google," with the word 'Google' linking to the search tool itself (http://google.com to be specific.) So, we can tell people that they may find their answers in Google, but we cannot tell them the answers to what ... nor what words to search on ... nor provide an example search that is contributory infringement. Clear as mud? - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Sat Feb 9 07:10:54 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 23:10:54 -0800 Subject: codec buddy, fluendo, etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1202541054.7709.63.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Fri, 2008-02-08 at 14:17 -0500, Max Spevack wrote: > (1) CodecBuddy was a Board-level decision that was made with the > understanding that after it had been in Fedora for a while, we would > evaluate the various pros and cons of how it was going and figure out if > it should stay in, be removed, or be modified. Yes, and at least one intended effect has worked. It has continued to raise the issue of codecs and what Fedora is unable to do. I'm confused a bit, and I'm asking for some reasoned explanation, because Hans description doesn't jibe with the reality I experienced (refer to below) ... and because the hyperbolic fears on fedora-devel-list don't jibe with what I experience or know ... it makes it hard to decide if codeina can be fixed or does it need to be made a sacrifice of? Hans raises a point in his thread opening[1]: "... we also ship the blacker then black, actually automatically downloading closed source code, not content but code! codecbuddy. Not only does it automatically download some gratis closed source code, it even offers the user to buy closed source code, effectively free advertising for commercial closed source!" Where does this blacker-than-black act occur? It's not happening to me with Totem and my installed-from-Live-CD-then-updated-and-packages-added copy of Fedora 8. Oh, look, codeina isn't installed. Nor does it report as a required package (from 'repoquery --whatrequires codeina'.) How do I get this automatic evil? Apparently I have to install the Sound and Video group and not from the live CD. So, if I intentionally set out to get packages that deal with Sound and Video, codeina is slipped into the mix as a default. I can see that is supposed to happen that way, although not sure why I didn't get it before. Without codeina, trying to play an MP3 got me an error that, "The playback of this movie requires a MPEG-1 Layer 3 (MP3) decoder plugin which is not installed." Aside from the grammatical errors, I don't get much help from that, esp. if I have no idea wtf a codec is. Now, I installed it, let's see what happens. I attempt to play an MP3. Now I get the famous dialog[2]. In that window, "About ..." is a link to http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/CodecBuddy. That's pretty good, and informative! "See available options" brings up the Codec Installer with Fluendo MP3 Audio Decoder checked, not installed, and priced as "Free." I presume it is checked because I attempted to play that audio format. I also get the option of purchasing the "MPEG Playback Bundle." Selecting that throws up another dialog box that says[3] I can't get it (yet) this way, I have to go buy it on a web shop. Finally, clicking on "Start Web Browser" takes me somewhere for full corruption. OK, I've never been pleased with the results of that effort. I wanted there to be no way to directly install or buy software, and instead the dialog states that such functionality is the goal of codeina. What I wanted to see was just the link to the CodecBuddy page. Then we could control directly what happens in that page, including potentially linking out to vendors with solutions that are legal in certain places. Or not. I agreed to letting codeina continue to be included with the current functionality with the following understanding: 1. We are trying it out, seeing people say (good and bad), see what we feel over time, see how raising the visibility of the codec issue works out. 2. We can always remove it from the distribution. 3. The functionality to pay and install from the codeina dialog has to go; if we can maintain a patch, then we don't have to require it of the upstream code. If not, we had to get upstream to change, or drop the package. Max is just returning us to that discussion, which I'm comfortable with. After trying the whole experience out, I don't see where evil is automatically committed on my system. It seems that I have to come with the intention of playing sound and video, then click through multiple locations to get to where I can legally buy something that lets me play my sound and video. Along the way I'm forced to view one education, have another one available just one click away, have three chances to stop and back out, and only by reading carefully and persisting do I find myself with a a plugin installed. Thanks - Karsten [1] http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-February/msg00476.html [2] Proprietary and free formats Fedora has the mission of always being freely re-distributable; this means you are free to give your copy of Fedora to anyone else. Unfortunately, that means that we cannot ship support for certain multimedia codecs, as they require patent licenses before you can view or play media that use them. Imagine if you had to pay a license fee before reading your e-mail, or viewing a picture on the web. This is why Fedora supports free formats, such as Ogg Vorbis and Theora. However, there are companies and communities that do offer support for certain codecs under Fedora. If you would like to install support, please proceed to see the available options. For more information, see About Proprietary and Free Formats. [] Do not show me this message again. [Cancel] [See available options] [3] Getting plugins At the moment this application does not support purchasing plugins directly from the Fluendo web shop yet. Please buy and download the selected plugins from the web shop and once you have done that install them using the 'Install downloaded plugin archive' menu item from the File menu. I will now open the Fluendo web shop in a browser. [Cancel] [Start Web Browser] -- Karsten Wade, Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From blizzard at 0xdeadbeef.com Sat Feb 9 17:22:06 2008 From: blizzard at 0xdeadbeef.com (Christopher Blizzard) Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 09:22:06 -0800 Subject: codec buddy, fluendo, etc. In-Reply-To: <604aa7910802081204m267c19c5hec7c56c013026b1f@mail.gmail.com> References: <1202498377.2593.39.camel@cutter> <1202499034.2593.46.camel@cutter> <604aa7910802081204m267c19c5hec7c56c013026b1f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9B899E28-4B60-49F2-A4B2-1A6BD43BC816@0xdeadbeef.com> On Feb 8, 2008, at 12:04 PM, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > >> >>>> It puts us into a precarious political and ethical situation. So >>>> I see >>>> very little good from it at this point. > > I'll make a bolder statement... there is very little good associated > with any issue involving patent encumbered codecs or data formats > generally. I don't care what we do, we're not going to end up with a > good outcome. I'd like to actually have something like miro in > fedora, making use of codeina, so that we can actually have a > constructive forward looking conversation with miro and its sponsors > about going the next step and actually helping to produce good open > format editting tools to start bootstrapping our way out of this > frelling mess. I'm very unhappy on where miro stance on 'format wars' > They've taken a complete pass on the very issue. If we take a > complete pass as well, we'll give developers in this space a reason to > ignore us. I think that Miro probably did the right thing on this topic. They pushed the problem down the operating system. Also, a video player that didn't play any of the video that's available on the web doesn't seem like a very compelling offering, does it? Those guys are doing what Mozilla did - building a consumer brand around an experience and leveraging as much of the existing infrastructure as possible (OS support for codecs, Mozilla for an engine, etc) and taking it directly to the public. I'm not sure why we get to project our concerns onto their project. Mozilla got the advantage of at least starting with an open format and continues to improve it vs. Miro where they have only closed content to consume and are trying to make it as open as possible. Miro won't have leverage until they have a lot of users and open formats _also _provide better tools or something better that actually creates value or people creating content with that format. > > > The whole thing blows big monkey chunks. The fact that you need this > crap to make flash usable is going to be an increasing more and more > painful, because in the bright kickass future of web 2.0 and online > desktop....we are screwed because flash is an integral part of this > stuff when it comes to video. Yup. And the fact that it's hard to get any of the browser vendors other than Mozilla and Opera to even consider including free-as-in- speech codecs is a sign that we've got a problem. Apple will likely be the first to ship