From mmcgrath at redhat.com Sun Jun 1 03:14:08 2008 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 22:14:08 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Guideline to linking in a multilicense situation In-Reply-To: <1212248254.9616.28.camel@cutter> References: <7f692fec0805300820r6eae230bia8d8efff6ef34445@mail.gmail.com> <1212161566.7710.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> <7f692fec0805310153o4b56f70al86c5fc787561555f@mail.gmail.com> <1212248254.9616.28.camel@cutter> Message-ID: On Sat, 31 May 2008, seth vidal wrote: > On Sat, 2008-05-31 at 10:53 +0200, Yaakov Nemoy wrote: > > > Luckily, the copyright holder is Mike McGrath. I can take it up with > > him. An exception seems like a good idea to me though. > > > > You sure it's Mike? If he started work on that while working for red hat > I think it's (c) Red Hat, Inc > > I might be wrong, though. It was on my invention disclosure list that I gave to HR :) -Mike From jonrob at fedoraproject.org Sun Jun 1 11:01:22 2008 From: jonrob at fedoraproject.org (Jonathan Roberts) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 12:01:22 +0100 Subject: Reviving the idea of Fedora Mentors? In-Reply-To: <10e0a9b00805310809l6156b6casa130676aa8f4797b@mail.gmail.com> References: <10e0a9b00805310809l6156b6casa130676aa8f4797b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1212318082.3044.6.camel@adam> > >From where I sit, I think there are several people willing to help > new folks to the project. The problem is making sure the new > contributors know who to contact for help or those early questions new > contributors might have. So just a re-awareness of the Fedora Mentors > project, the effort to keep that page up to date and to make sure each > SIG/Project has a mentor representative would be a big step in the > right direction. Perhaps a revamp of the join.fp.o page? We can keep the cool icons etc, but we could add more content that explains the process in general terms, introduces the idea of mentors and points people to the list and IRC for help? I may have a crack at writing something like this later on today... Best, Jon From stickster at gmail.com Mon Jun 2 00:54:53 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 20:54:53 -0400 Subject: Reviving the idea of Fedora Mentors? In-Reply-To: <1212318082.3044.6.camel@adam> References: <10e0a9b00805310809l6156b6casa130676aa8f4797b@mail.gmail.com> <1212318082.3044.6.camel@adam> Message-ID: <1212368093.6521.6.camel@victoria> On Sun, 2008-06-01 at 12:01 +0100, Jonathan Roberts wrote: > > >From where I sit, I think there are several people willing to help > > new folks to the project. The problem is making sure the new > > contributors know who to contact for help or those early questions new > > contributors might have. So just a re-awareness of the Fedora Mentors > > project, the effort to keep that page up to date and to make sure each > > SIG/Project has a mentor representative would be a big step in the > > right direction. > > Perhaps a revamp of the join.fp.o page? We can keep the cool icons etc, > but we could add more content that explains the process in general > terms, introduces the idea of mentors and points people to the list and > IRC for help? > > I may have a crack at writing something like this later on today... Jef had mentioned using office hours as a basis for keeping IRC helpful. We should use that idea to make mentoring into a real commitment. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From gdk at redhat.com Mon Jun 2 01:47:39 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 21:47:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Reviving the idea of Fedora Mentors? In-Reply-To: <1212318082.3044.6.camel@adam> References: <10e0a9b00805310809l6156b6casa130676aa8f4797b@mail.gmail.com> <1212318082.3044.6.camel@adam> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Jun 2008, Jonathan Roberts wrote: >> From where I sit, I think there are several people willing to help new >> folks to the project. The problem is making sure the new contributors >> know who to contact for help or those early questions new contributors >> might have. So just a re-awareness of the Fedora Mentors project, the >> effort to keep that page up to date and to make sure each SIG/Project >> has a mentor representative would be a big step in the right direction. > > Perhaps a revamp of the join.fp.o page? We can keep the cool icons etc, > but we could add more content that explains the process in general > terms, introduces the idea of mentors and points people to the list and > IRC for help? I'm actually thinking of something a bit more proactive. Imagine this scenario: the Mentors all belong to a queue attached to FAS2. When a new member joins up in FAS2, rather than presenting a bunch of lists, or content for them to read, the new Fedora member is greeted with a question: "which of these Fedora activities interest you?" And then a list of checkboxes. Web development. Software packaging. Evangelizing. Documentation. Translation. Media distribution. Press relations. Systems administration. And so on. The user checks the boxes in question, and the Mentors receive an email. "Achtung! There's a new contributor! Here's their email address! Bring them home!" Whereupon the mentor sends a friendly email, asks them if they're finding everything okay, answers any questions they might have, and so on and so forth. Immediately presenting as a friendly "face" who can answer any question -- before they even have to ask for help. Just thinking and talking. New contributors continue to be our lifeblood, and we should treat them like gold at every opportunity. Karma gimmicks are cool, but relationships make open source go 'round. --g From tcallawa at redhat.com Mon Jun 2 02:36:03 2008 From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom "spot" Callaway) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 22:36:03 -0400 Subject: Reviving the idea of Fedora Mentors? In-Reply-To: References: <10e0a9b00805310809l6156b6casa130676aa8f4797b@mail.gmail.com> <1212318082.3044.6.camel@adam> Message-ID: <1212374163.7710.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2008-06-01 at 21:47 -0400, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > The user checks the boxes in question, and the Mentors receive an > email. "Achtung! There's a new contributor! Here's their email > address! Bring them home!" A few thoughts: 1. A lot of CLA signers don't speak/read English (trust me, I know). Thus, a lot of FAS2 account holders don't. Currently, FAS2 doesn't require people to list the languages they speak/read. If we want to do this, we might want to enable that functionality, and respond appropriately. 2. Some of the people creating FAS2 accounts are doing so as part of the packaging process (they've just passed their first package review and are about to be sponsored). We just want to keep that in mind. ~spot From gdk at redhat.com Mon Jun 2 02:43:22 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 22:43:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Reviving the idea of Fedora Mentors? In-Reply-To: <1212374163.7710.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <10e0a9b00805310809l6156b6casa130676aa8f4797b@mail.gmail.com> <1212318082.3044.6.camel@adam> <1212374163.7710.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Jun 2008, Tom "spot" Callaway wrote: > On Sun, 2008-06-01 at 21:47 -0400, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: >> The user checks the boxes in question, and the Mentors receive an >> email. "Achtung! There's a new contributor! Here's their email >> address! Bring them home!" > > A few thoughts: > > 1. A lot of CLA signers don't speak/read English (trust me, I know). > Thus, a lot of FAS2 account holders don't. Currently, FAS2 doesn't > require people to list the languages they speak/read. If we want to do > this, we might want to enable that functionality, and respond > appropriately. Hm. Yes. Hm. Do we have any l10n plans on the horizon for FAS2? Is it even written in such a way as to make l10n feasible? Do we simply assume that everyone who comes to contribute to Fedora speaks English? Is that an unreasonable assumption? > 2. Some of the people creating FAS2 accounts are doing so as part of the > packaging process (they've just passed their first package review and > are about to be sponsored). We just want to keep that in mind. Yeah. Probably just a massaging of the checkboxes, but yeah, we don't want to stampede people inappropriately. --g From mmcgrath at redhat.com Mon Jun 2 02:55:02 2008 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 21:55:02 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Reviving the idea of Fedora Mentors? In-Reply-To: References: <10e0a9b00805310809l6156b6casa130676aa8f4797b@mail.gmail.com> <1212318082.3044.6.camel@adam> <1212374163.7710.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Jun 2008, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > > On Sun, 1 Jun 2008, Tom "spot" Callaway wrote: > > > On Sun, 2008-06-01 at 21:47 -0400, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > > > The user checks the boxes in question, and the Mentors receive an > > > email. "Achtung! There's a new contributor! Here's their email > > > address! Bring them home!" > > > > A few thoughts: > > > > 1. A lot of CLA signers don't speak/read English (trust me, I know). > > Thus, a lot of FAS2 account holders don't. Currently, FAS2 doesn't > > require people to list the languages they speak/read. If we want to do > > this, we might want to enable that functionality, and respond > > appropriately. > > Hm. Yes. Hm. > > Do we have any l10n plans on the horizon for FAS2? Is it even written in such > a way as to make l10n feasible? > > Do we simply assume that everyone who comes to contribute to Fedora speaks > English? Is that an unreasonable assumption? > Its been translated into 5 languages already (it was a requirement for building fas). Additionally you can set your locale under my account. -Mike From gdk at redhat.com Mon Jun 2 03:07:13 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 23:07:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Reviving the idea of Fedora Mentors? In-Reply-To: References: <10e0a9b00805310809l6156b6casa130676aa8f4797b@mail.gmail.com> <1212318082.3044.6.camel@adam> <1212374163.7710.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Jun 2008, Mike McGrath wrote: >>> A few thoughts: >>> >>> 1. A lot of CLA signers don't speak/read English (trust me, I know). >>> Thus, a lot of FAS2 account holders don't. Currently, FAS2 doesn't >>> require people to list the languages they speak/read. If we want to do >>> this, we might want to enable that functionality, and respond >>> appropriately. >> >> Hm. Yes. Hm. >> >> Do we have any l10n plans on the horizon for FAS2? Is it even written >> in such a way as to make l10n feasible? >> >> Do we simply assume that everyone who comes to contribute to Fedora >> speaks English? Is that an unreasonable assumption? > > Its been translated into 5 languages already (it was a requirement for > building fas). Additionally you can set your locale under my account. Mother of Pearl, that's incredibly badass. --g From gdk at redhat.com Mon Jun 2 03:14:00 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 23:14:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Reviving the idea of Fedora Mentors? In-Reply-To: References: <10e0a9b00805310809l6156b6casa130676aa8f4797b@mail.gmail.com> <1212318082.3044.6.camel@adam> <1212374163.7710.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Jun 2008, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: >>> Do we have any l10n plans on the horizon for FAS2? Is it even written in >>> such a way as to make l10n feasible? >>> >>> Do we simply assume that everyone who comes to contribute to Fedora speaks >>> English? Is that an unreasonable assumption? >> >> Its been translated into 5 languages already (it was a requirement for >> building fas). Additionally you can set your locale under my account. > > Mother of Pearl, that's incredibly badass. I just tried it out, and it totally works. I am incredibly impressed. So this means that it should be pretty straightforward to offer mentorship even in local languages, so long as there are mentors who speak those languages available to help. --g From jspaleta at gmail.com Mon Jun 2 03:35:16 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 19:35:16 -0800 Subject: Reviving the idea of Fedora Mentors? In-Reply-To: <1212368093.6521.6.camel@victoria> References: <10e0a9b00805310809l6156b6casa130676aa8f4797b@mail.gmail.com> <1212318082.3044.6.camel@adam> <1212368093.6521.6.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <604aa7910806012035k6add8878j59c12515a3869376@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Jun 1, 2008 at 4:54 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > Jef had mentioned using office hours as a basis for keeping IRC helpful. > We should use that idea to make mentoring into a real commitment. Yes I think asking people to make an affirmative commitment in terms of time will be useful so we can put 'helping' on a solid framework so we can track who is making the commitment and how large the commitment is across the contributor base. We can try to establish how many manhours are being contributed in this area as a starting point for greater organization. -jef From jonstanley at gmail.com Mon Jun 2 04:12:26 2008 From: jonstanley at gmail.com (Jon Stanley) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 00:12:26 -0400 Subject: Reviving the idea of Fedora Mentors? In-Reply-To: <1212368093.6521.6.camel@victoria> References: <10e0a9b00805310809l6156b6casa130676aa8f4797b@mail.gmail.com> <1212318082.3044.6.camel@adam> <1212368093.6521.6.camel@victoria> Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 1, 2008 at 8:54 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > Jef had mentioned using office hours as a basis for keeping IRC helpful. > We should use that idea to make mentoring into a real commitment. The problem that I see with "office hours" is that occasionally I need a break, and go play my PS3, go to the bar (and drink copious amounts :) ), go to the grocery store, or do something else similarly in Real Life(TM) that takes me away from the beckon call of IRC. However, what I *have* done, and encourage others to do, is to set up a GrandCentral Webcall button on my blog[1]. This allows my phone number to remain private, however, folks can call me whenever they'd like, even if I'm engaged in Real Life(TM) activities. There's more bandwidth available via voice than IRC anyway. Unfortunately, it only works for numbers in the US, but hey, it's better than nothing! I'm more than willing to have "office hours" via this (which for my loser self is pretty much any time after work - or during work if I'm not busy, which is unpredictable - or during the evenings and weekends). [1] http://jons-thoughts.blogspot.com From jwboyer at gmail.com Mon Jun 2 13:42:06 2008 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 08:42:06 -0500 Subject: Reviving the idea of Fedora Mentors? In-Reply-To: <604aa7910806012035k6add8878j59c12515a3869376@mail.gmail.com> References: <10e0a9b00805310809l6156b6casa130676aa8f4797b@mail.gmail.com> <1212318082.3044.6.camel@adam> <1212368093.6521.6.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806012035k6add8878j59c12515a3869376@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080602084206.7db78ddc@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> On Sun, 1 Jun 2008 19:35:16 -0800 "Jeff Spaleta" wrote: > On Sun, Jun 1, 2008 at 4:54 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > Jef had mentioned using office hours as a basis for keeping IRC helpful. > > We should use that idea to make mentoring into a real commitment. > > > Yes I think asking people to make an affirmative commitment in terms > of time will be useful so we can put 'helping' on a solid framework so > we can track who is making the commitment and how large the commitment > is across the contributor base. We can try to establish how many > manhours are being contributed in this area as a starting point for > greater organization. Why do you need to track that? josh From gafton at gafton.net Mon Jun 2 17:31:40 2008 From: gafton at gafton.net (Cristian Gafton) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 13:31:40 -0400 Subject: Werewolf -> Sulphur -> ? Sulphur is a , is a In-Reply-To: <1212160586.9616.9.camel@cutter> References: <20080522065724.1788e577@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <1212154872.16130.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20080530135634.GC11236@domsch.com> <20080530090935.1878ca68@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <1212160088.16130.113.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1212160586.9616.9.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1212427900.6375.1.camel@alienpad.rpath.com> On Fri, 2008-05-30 at 11:16 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > > Actually, no! We have "Red Hat Linux" on the list, but not "Red Hat > > Linux 10" :D > > > > Red Hat Linux 10 cannot be in there ,actually. > > Sulphur is the name of a linux distribution release > Red Hat Linux 10 has not yet been the name of a linux distribution > release. That's because Red Hat Linux 10 became Fedora Core 1. I remember running the sed command. Cristian -- Cristian Gafton From mspevack at redhat.com Mon Jun 2 17:46:32 2008 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 19:46:32 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Werewolf -> Sulphur -> ? Sulphur is a , is a In-Reply-To: <1212427900.6375.1.camel@alienpad.rpath.com> References: <20080522065724.1788e577@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <1212154872.16130.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20080530135634.GC11236@domsch.com> <20080530090935.1878ca68@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <1212160088.16130.113.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1212160586.9616.9.camel@cutter> <1212427900.6375.1.camel@alienpad.rpath.com> Message-ID: >> Red Hat Linux 10 cannot be in there ,actually. >> >> Sulphur is the name of a linux distribution release Red Hat Linux 10 >> has not yet been the name of a linux distribution release. > > That's because Red Hat Linux 10 became Fedora Core 1. I remember > running the sed command. Seth, I hereby declare my victory in this, the Great Naming Dispute of 2008. --Max From gdk at redhat.com Mon Jun 2 18:02:12 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 14:02:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: ccMixter up for grabs Message-ID: http://creativecommons.org/weblog/entry/8323 So. Let's say that Red Hat could find a full-time head to manage this. Do we think that we could come up with a community model to support ccMixter? --g From gdk at redhat.com Mon Jun 2 18:39:05 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 14:39:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Going home on Western? (fwd) Message-ID: OH NOES! --g ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 14:32:22 -0400 From: Grant Gainey To: RDU List Subject: Going home on Western? Folks, Do you go home via Western Avenue? You might want to think about alternate routes. The Bojangles at Western and Gorman appears to be having a major fire right now - when I went by at 2:20, the (rest of) the fire engines were showing up, and LOTS of black smoke was coming from the roof of the building. 4 fire engines, 2 ambulances, 3 police cars - I suspect that area is gonna be a mess for the rest of the afternoon. Just want to give y'all a heads-up... Grant -- ggainey at redhat.com (919) 754-4347 In theory, there is no difference between Theory and Practice. In practice, there is no relationship between Theory and Practice. From mspevack at redhat.com Mon Jun 2 18:42:11 2008 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 20:42:11 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Going home on Western? (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is where davej and the Kernel Hackers ate during FUDCon. Many a Fedora meeting and meal has taken place there. :( On Mon, 2 Jun 2008, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > OH NOES! > > --g > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 14:32:22 -0400 > From: Grant Gainey > To: RDU List > Subject: Going home on Western? > > Folks, > > Do you go home via Western Avenue? You might want to think about alternate > routes. The Bojangles at Western and Gorman appears to be having a major > fire right now - when I went by at 2:20, the (rest of) the fire engines were > showing up, and LOTS of black smoke was coming from the roof of the building. > 4 fire engines, 2 ambulances, 3 police cars - I suspect that area is gonna be > a mess for the rest of the afternoon. > > Just want to give y'all a heads-up... > > Grant > From jspaleta at gmail.com Mon Jun 2 20:41:10 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:41:10 -0800 Subject: Reviving the idea of Fedora Mentors? In-Reply-To: <20080602084206.7db78ddc@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> References: <10e0a9b00805310809l6156b6casa130676aa8f4797b@mail.gmail.com> <1212318082.3044.6.camel@adam> <1212368093.6521.6.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806012035k6add8878j59c12515a3869376@mail.gmail.com> <20080602084206.7db78ddc@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: <604aa7910806021341w4b4841b8r4c07f568438dc012@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 5:42 AM, Josh Boyer wrote: > Why do you need to track that? Why does any volunteer organization want to keep track of the amount of time individuals are committing and what things they are doing? We want to make sure we are putting human resources into the overall project in a way that we aren't creating bottlenecks, or worse in a way that is wasteful. The most critically important resource we have is available volunteer time and goodwill, and we need to start looking seriously at how well we are managing those resources as they come into the door. We need to make sure that when we encourage people to participate we are doing it a way that we are asking people to spend time in a way that makes a positive impact. And we need to find ways to measure that impact. If we think mentoring is a good idea, then we need to try to measure that impact. But we cant really gauge impact unless we have a reasonable estimate of the manhours going in. More important for me we need to try to make a long term effort to trend the impact of different areas of 'contribution' that we stand up. Unless we attempt to track manhours spent in different areas how do we ever really get a handle on whether we need to push one area over another through a project wide recruitment program? Different parts of the project are going to grow organically on their own...but not necessarily at the same rate. As one bit grows it can create growing pains for other groups, and its exactly this sort of imbalance that we need to watch out for and respond to via recruitment drives. -jef From smooge at gmail.com Mon Jun 2 21:06:01 2008 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 15:06:01 -0600 Subject: Reviving the idea of Fedora Mentors? In-Reply-To: <604aa7910806021341w4b4841b8r4c07f568438dc012@mail.gmail.com> References: <10e0a9b00805310809l6156b6casa130676aa8f4797b@mail.gmail.com> <1212318082.3044.6.camel@adam> <1212368093.6521.6.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806012035k6add8878j59c12515a3869376@mail.gmail.com> <20080602084206.7db78ddc@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <604aa7910806021341w4b4841b8r4c07f568438dc012@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <80d7e4090806021406r5a875a60p9eb3c0dcd636816a@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 2:41 PM, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 5:42 AM, Josh Boyer wrote: >> Why do you need to track that? > > > Why does any volunteer organization want to keep track of the amount > of time individuals are committing and what things they are doing? We I can say as someone who has managed several volunteer groups into the ground.. not knowing where people are doing things, how much they are doing them, what is working and what isn't.. has been a lesson's learned many times. It may seem like corporatizing a volunteer group.. but not knowing those things has been something I have rued. -- Stephen J Smoogen. -- BSD/GNU/Linux How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice" From davej at redhat.com Mon Jun 2 21:23:17 2008 From: davej at redhat.com (Dave Jones) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 17:23:17 -0400 Subject: Going home on Western? (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080602212317.GA23874@redhat.com> On Mon, Jun 02, 2008 at 08:42:11PM +0200, Max Spevack wrote: > This is where davej and the Kernel Hackers ate during FUDCon. Many a > Fedora meeting and meal has taken place there. :( SEND MOAR BISCUITS. Dave -- http://www.codemonkey.org.uk From smooge at gmail.com Mon Jun 2 22:22:15 2008 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 16:22:15 -0600 Subject: Going home on Western? (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20080602212317.GA23874@redhat.com> References: <20080602212317.GA23874@redhat.com> Message-ID: <80d7e4090806021522o8417ae8q7b1f408cfaffdff1@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 3:23 PM, Dave Jones wrote: > On Mon, Jun 02, 2008 at 08:42:11PM +0200, Max Spevack wrote: > > This is where davej and the Kernel Hackers ate during FUDCon. Many a > > Fedora meeting and meal has taken place there. :( > > SEND MOAR BISCUITS. > Thankfully there are more Bojangles in RDU area.. which I will be partaking of in T-30 hours or so. > Dave > > -- > http://www.codemonkey.org.uk > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board > -- Stephen J Smoogen. -- BSD/GNU/Linux How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice" From jwboyer at gmail.com Mon Jun 2 22:34:14 2008 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 17:34:14 -0500 Subject: Tracking contributions In-Reply-To: <604aa7910806021341w4b4841b8r4c07f568438dc012@mail.gmail.com> References: <10e0a9b00805310809l6156b6casa130676aa8f4797b@mail.gmail.com> <1212318082.3044.6.camel@adam> <1212368093.6521.6.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806012035k6add8878j59c12515a3869376@mail.gmail.com> <20080602084206.7db78ddc@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <604aa7910806021341w4b4841b8r4c07f568438dc012@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080602173414.03eae681@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:41:10 -0800 "Jeff Spaleta" wrote: > On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 5:42 AM, Josh Boyer wrote: > > Why do you need to track that? > > > Why does any volunteer organization want to keep track of the amount > of time individuals are committing and what things they are doing? We > want to make sure we are putting human resources into the overall > project in a way that we aren't creating bottlenecks, or worse in a > way that is wasteful. The most critically important resource we have > is available volunteer time and goodwill, and we need to start looking > seriously at how well we are managing those resources as they come > into the door. We need to make sure that when we encourage people to > participate we are doing it a way that we are asking people to spend > time in a way that makes a positive impact. And we need to find ways > to measure that impact. If we think mentoring is a good idea, then we > need to try to measure that impact. But we cant really gauge impact > unless we have a reasonable estimate of the manhours going in. More > important for me we need to try to make a long term effort to trend > the impact of different areas of 'contribution' that we stand up. > Unless we attempt to track manhours spent in different areas how do we > ever really get a handle on whether we need to push one area over > another through a project wide recruitment program? Different parts > of the project are going to grow organically on their own...but not > necessarily at the same rate. As one bit grows it can create growing > pains for other groups, and its exactly this sort of imbalance that we > need to watch out for and respond to via recruitment drives. Fair enough. Good points. And I agree that having such data would be great for planning, etc. Now, you have issues with all of that too. 1) How do you do it across the Project as a whole without resorting to a "timecard" that contributors punch. 2) How do you get around the fact that some people might not want their contribution time tracked? 3) How do you account for transient contributors? E.g. The overall contribution time for a particular area may stay the same across two different time periods. It could be all from the same contributor base, or it could be spread across a bunch of different contributors that come and go. The wiki would likely be a decent example of the latter. Or, put another way, do we want to track contributor retention? (See lkml thread from last week for a similar discussion and the observations they saw there.) 4) How do you balance "paid for" time vs. volunteer time? Both are invaluable, and it's a fine line to walk in some cases. 5) How do you quantify "intangibles" like helping people on #fedora? 6) How do you actively "recruit" people to areas that need help without driving them away altogether? None of those are easy questions, and I don't really expect answers in a reply immediately. But they are things that need to be carefully considered if we're going to implement any kind of manhour tracking. Hopefully the Board (and/or FESCo) can work on those in the next term. josh From davej at redhat.com Mon Jun 2 22:34:22 2008 From: davej at redhat.com (Dave Jones) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 18:34:22 -0400 Subject: Going home on Western? (fwd) In-Reply-To: <80d7e4090806021522o8417ae8q7b1f408cfaffdff1@mail.gmail.com> References: <20080602212317.GA23874@redhat.com> <80d7e4090806021522o8417ae8q7b1f408cfaffdff1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080602223422.GB23874@redhat.com> On Mon, Jun 02, 2008 at 04:22:15PM -0600, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 3:23 PM, Dave Jones wrote: > > On Mon, Jun 02, 2008 at 08:42:11PM +0200, Max Spevack wrote: > > > This is where davej and the Kernel Hackers ate during FUDCon. Many a > > > Fedora meeting and meal has taken place there. :( > > > > SEND MOAR BISCUITS. > > > > Thankfully there are more Bojangles in RDU area.. which I will be > partaking of in T-30 hours or so. That isn't helping my lack of bojangles situation any. Dave -- http://www.codemonkey.org.uk From stickster at gmail.com Tue Jun 3 01:00:35 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 21:00:35 -0400 Subject: Board IRC meeting Message-ID: <1212454835.4023.143.camel@victoria> In the past few months, the Board has scheduled a public IRC meeting on the first meeting of the month. Because of the timing of LinuxTag last week, however, there will not be a public Board IRC meeting on Tuesday, June 3. We will announce the next public IRC meeting well in advance so community members can attend if desired. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Tue Jun 3 01:54:43 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 21:54:43 -0400 Subject: Tracking contributions In-Reply-To: <20080602173414.03eae681@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> References: <10e0a9b00805310809l6156b6casa130676aa8f4797b@mail.gmail.com> <1212318082.3044.6.camel@adam> <1212368093.6521.6.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806012035k6add8878j59c12515a3869376@mail.gmail.com> <20080602084206.7db78ddc@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <604aa7910806021341w4b4841b8r4c07f568438dc012@mail.gmail.com> <20080602173414.03eae681@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: <1212458083.4023.171.camel@victoria> On Mon, 2008-06-02 at 17:34 -0500, Josh Boyer wrote: > On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:41:10 -0800 > "Jeff Spaleta" wrote: > > > On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 5:42 AM, Josh Boyer wrote: > > > Why do you need to track that? > > > > > > Why does any volunteer organization want to keep track of the amount > > of time individuals are committing and what things they are doing? We > > want to make sure we are putting human resources into the overall > > project in a way that we aren't creating bottlenecks, or worse in a > > way that is wasteful. The most critically important resource we have > > is available volunteer time and goodwill, and we need to start looking > > seriously at how well we are managing those resources as they come > > into the door. We need to make sure that when we encourage people to > > participate we are doing it a way that we are asking people to spend > > time in a way that makes a positive impact. And we need to find ways > > to measure that impact. If we think mentoring is a good idea, then we > > need to try to measure that impact. But we cant really gauge impact > > unless we have a reasonable estimate of the manhours going in. More > > important for me we need to try to make a long term effort to trend > > the impact of different areas of 'contribution' that we stand up. > > Unless we attempt to track manhours spent in different areas how do we > > ever really get a handle on whether we need to push one area over > > another through a project wide recruitment program? Different parts > > of the project are going to grow organically on their own...but not > > necessarily at the same rate. As one bit grows it can create growing > > pains for other groups, and its exactly this sort of imbalance that we > > need to watch out for and respond to via recruitment drives. > > Fair enough. Good points. And I agree that having such data would be > great for planning, etc. > > Now, you have issues with all of that too. > > 1) How do you do it across the Project as a whole without resorting to > a "timecard" that contributors punch. > > 2) How do you get around the fact that some people might not want their > contribution time tracked? > > 3) How do you account for transient contributors? E.g. The overall > contribution time for a particular area may stay the same across two > different time periods. It could be all from the same contributor > base, or it could be spread across a bunch of different contributors > that come and go. The wiki would likely be a decent example of the > latter. > > Or, put another way, do we want to track contributor retention? (See > lkml thread from last week for a similar discussion and the > observations they saw there.) > > 4) How do you balance "paid for" time vs. volunteer time? Both are > invaluable, and it's a fine line to walk in some cases. > > 5) How do you quantify "intangibles" like helping people on #fedora? > > 6) How do you actively "recruit" people to areas that need help without > driving them away altogether? > > None of those are easy questions, and I don't really expect answers in > a reply immediately. But they are things that need to be carefully > considered if we're going to implement any kind of manhour tracking. > Hopefully the Board (and/or FESCo) can work on those in the next term. Before the Board starts working on these issues, there needs to be some sort of consensus that any sort of time tracking is needed and workable. The number and quality of your questions here, both high, are similar to what we've heard others say before about time tracking, and tell me that consensus doesn't exist yet. This list is where those things should be figured out, not by the Board in a meeting that the community can't see or hear. If this were a brick-and-mortar volunteer organization, time tracking would be easy -- you'd see it in the shifts people cover. Our project doesn't lend itself well to that kind of tracking for obvious reasons. (How would we track someone's work on a git repo while they're on a cross-country flight?) I've always thought that time measurement was not as good a metric in this case as the level of support one is giving to one's fellow project members. And the unfortunate fact is that kind of measurement is more qualitative and thus exponentially more difficult. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From smooge at gmail.com Tue Jun 3 12:55:48 2008 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 06:55:48 -0600 Subject: Going home on Western? (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20080602223422.GB23874@redhat.com> References: <20080602212317.GA23874@redhat.com> <80d7e4090806021522o8417ae8q7b1f408cfaffdff1@mail.gmail.com> <20080602223422.GB23874@redhat.com> Message-ID: <80d7e4090806030555l935fc9ai4c4069ac8771cb@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 4:34 PM, Dave Jones wrote: > On Mon, Jun 02, 2008 at 04:22:15PM -0600, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > > On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 3:23 PM, Dave Jones wrote: > > > On Mon, Jun 02, 2008 at 08:42:11PM +0200, Max Spevack wrote: > > > > This is where davej and the Kernel Hackers ate during FUDCon. Many a > > > > Fedora meeting and meal has taken place there. :( > > > > > > SEND MOAR BISCUITS. > > > > > > > Thankfully there are more Bojangles in RDU area.. which I will be > > partaking of in T-30 hours or so. > > That isn't helping my lack of bojangles situation any. > T-12 hours or so now... mmmmm chicken bisquit -- Stephen J Smoogen. -- BSD/GNU/Linux How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice" From jonstanley at gmail.com Tue Jun 3 13:25:36 2008 From: jonstanley at gmail.com (Jon Stanley) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 09:25:36 -0400 Subject: Going home on Western? (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20080602223422.GB23874@redhat.com> References: <20080602212317.GA23874@redhat.com> <80d7e4090806021522o8417ae8q7b1f408cfaffdff1@mail.gmail.com> <20080602223422.GB23874@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 6:34 PM, Dave Jones wrote: > That isn't helping my lack of bojangles situation any. Maybe they have specials on fried chicken now :). Sorry, bad joke I know, couldn't resist :) From luis at tieguy.org Tue Jun 3 18:17:06 2008 From: luis at tieguy.org (Luis Villa) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:17:06 -0700 Subject: ccMixter up for grabs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2cb10c440806031117o419252fetde7f1b3fc4ed6eff@mail.gmail.com> Ambitious, and outside of fedora's current core competency. Still, worth exploring, I think. Luis On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 11:02 AM, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > > http://creativecommons.org/weblog/entry/8323 > > So. Let's say that Red Hat could find a full-time head to manage this. > > Do we think that we could come up with a community model to support > ccMixter? > > --g > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board > From monkeyboythom at gmail.com Tue Jun 3 18:34:16 2008 From: monkeyboythom at gmail.com (Monkey Boy) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 14:34:16 -0400 Subject: Going home on Western? Message-ID: Wouldn't that be fire roasted or baked chicken? Seriously though...I didn't get a chance to attend this year so I am wondering if going to Bo-angle-leez helped build better communication and commraderie? And would it be the same if someone catered the meetings at the offices/board rooms? I ask because I think we could tie the local community to what is going on with FUDCon. It is one thing to get people together who share the same common interest, but it is something greater to offer "quid pro quo" to those who might be interested in what you are doing -- if they knew what "it" is. In this case, letting someone higher up at Bojangles Holdings, Inc. that the elite of Linux (okay that may be pushing it a bit) is in town and they love Bojangles when they develop/build/dream up Linux-based tech. Someone in the company may see that as an advertising opportunity but also as something for their company infrastructure (move to a Linux shop, offer linux server-based Internet at stores, etc.) Just a thought. -Thom > Message: 5 > Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 09:25:36 -0400 > From: "Jon Stanley" > Subject: Re: Going home on Western? (fwd) > To: fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 6:34 PM, Dave Jones wrote: > > > That isn't helping my lack of bojangles situation any. > > Maybe they have specials on fried chicken now :). Sorry, bad joke I > know, couldn't resist :) -- audentis fortuna juvet -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gdk at redhat.com Tue Jun 3 19:01:04 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 15:01:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Tracking contributions In-Reply-To: <20080602173414.03eae681@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> References: <10e0a9b00805310809l6156b6casa130676aa8f4797b@mail.gmail.com> <1212318082.3044.6.camel@adam> <1212368093.6521.6.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806012035k6add8878j59c12515a3869376@mail.gmail.com> <20080602084206.7db78ddc@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <604aa7910806021341w4b4841b8r4c07f568438dc012@mail.gmail.com> <20080602173414.03eae681@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: My brief answer: better tools. A more detailed answer inline. On Mon, 2 Jun 2008, Josh Boyer wrote: > On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:41:10 -0800 > "Jeff Spaleta" wrote: > >> On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 5:42 AM, Josh Boyer wrote: >>> Why do you need to track that? >> >> >> Why does any volunteer organization want to keep track of the amount >> of time individuals are committing and what things they are doing? We >> want to make sure we are putting human resources into the overall >> project in a way that we aren't creating bottlenecks, or worse in a >> way that is wasteful. The most critically important resource we have >> is available volunteer time and goodwill, and we need to start looking >> seriously at how well we are managing those resources as they come >> into the door. We need to make sure that when we encourage people to >> participate we are doing it a way that we are asking people to spend >> time in a way that makes a positive impact. And we need to find ways >> to measure that impact. If we think mentoring is a good idea, then we >> need to try to measure that impact. But we cant really gauge impact >> unless we have a reasonable estimate of the manhours going in. More >> important for me we need to try to make a long term effort to trend >> the impact of different areas of 'contribution' that we stand up. >> Unless we attempt to track manhours spent in different areas how do we >> ever really get a handle on whether we need to push one area over >> another through a project wide recruitment program? Different parts >> of the project are going to grow organically on their own...but not >> necessarily at the same rate. As one bit grows it can create growing >> pains for other groups, and its exactly this sort of imbalance that we >> need to watch out for and respond to via recruitment drives. > > Fair enough. Good points. And I agree that having such data would be > great for planning, etc. > > Now, you have issues with all of that too. > > 1) How do you do it across the Project as a whole without resorting to > a "timecard" that contributors punch. We make sure that everything is tied as clearly as possible to FAS2 account info, and then we collect measurements where it makes sense. > 2) How do you get around the fact that some people might not want their > contribution time tracked? We make it so that they don't have to do the work, and whenever we present "metrics", we do it in such a way that we're never penalizing, only rewarding. No volunteer wants to hear "you didn't do enough to suit us," but many might like to hear "you did a tremendous amount of work that we saw." And if that drives a bit of competition, so much the better. > 3) How do you account for transient contributors? E.g. The overall > contribution time for a particular area may stay the same across two > different time periods. It could be all from the same contributor > base, or it could be spread across a bunch of different contributors > that come and go. The wiki would likely be a decent example of the > latter. It's got to be possible to track different kinds of contributions. How many times did "gdk" edit the wiki? Check something into a repo? Show up on various mailing lists? > Or, put another way, do we want to track contributor retention? (See > lkml thread from last week for a similar discussion and the > observations they saw there.) > > 4) How do you balance "paid for" time vs. volunteer time? Both are > invaluable, and it's a fine line to walk in some cases. A fair question, and perhaps a separate one. > 5) How do you quantify "intangibles" like helping people on #fedora? Make them tangible. Collect IRC screen names in FAS2, and do some analysis. > 6) How do you actively "recruit" people to areas that need help without > driving them away altogether? By emphasizing them on the Join page, which is increasingly becoming an effective vector into the project. Of course, the fact is that you can't make a volunteer do anything they don't really want to do, which is something we must be cognizant of at all times. --g From jonrob at fedoraproject.org Tue Jun 3 19:22:23 2008 From: jonrob at fedoraproject.org (Jonathan Roberts) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 20:22:23 +0100 Subject: Tracking contributions In-Reply-To: References: <20080602173414.03eae681@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: <200806032022.24022.jonrob@fedoraproject.org> On Tuesday 03 June 2008 20:01:04 Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > My brief answer: better tools. A more detailed answer inline. > > On Mon, 2 Jun 2008, Josh Boyer wrote: > > On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:41:10 -0800 > > > > "Jeff Spaleta" wrote: > >> On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 5:42 AM, Josh Boyer wrote: > >>> Why do you need to track that? +1 - I'm not exactly experienced when it comes to running volunteer projects, but it seems to me that just as effective as tracking individual contributors efforts would be paying careful attention to what actually gets done, regardless of who does it. And I'm quietly confident that SIGs etc know when they need extra help/more hands and are pretty capable of pushing for more recruits themselves. And with regard to being able to reward contributors who are working hard: imho the best way to do this is for those you've worked with to say thanks in a public place. Mike McGrath's recent post thanking Ian Weller etc for their hard work with respect to the wiki was a great example of this, and I'm sure meant a lot to those involved; another great example are the lesser known contributor posts Max and Paul have run over recent times. Best, Jon From kwade at redhat.com Tue Jun 3 19:17:49 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 12:17:49 -0700 Subject: Going home on Western? (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: <20080602212317.GA23874@redhat.com> <80d7e4090806021522o8417ae8q7b1f408cfaffdff1@mail.gmail.com> <20080602223422.GB23874@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1212520669.8355.221.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Tue, 2008-06-03 at 09:25 -0400, Jon Stanley wrote: > On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 6:34 PM, Dave Jones wrote: > > > That isn't helping my lack of bojangles situation any. > > Maybe they have specials on fried chicken now :). Sorry, bad joke I > know, couldn't resist :) Bojangles don't do BBQ smoked chicken! -- Karsten Wade, Sr. Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jwboyer at gmail.com Tue Jun 3 19:19:12 2008 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 14:19:12 -0500 Subject: Tracking contributions In-Reply-To: References: <10e0a9b00805310809l6156b6casa130676aa8f4797b@mail.gmail.com> <1212318082.3044.6.camel@adam> <1212368093.6521.6.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806012035k6add8878j59c12515a3869376@mail.gmail.com> <20080602084206.7db78ddc@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <604aa7910806021341w4b4841b8r4c07f568438dc012@mail.gmail.com> <20080602173414.03eae681@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: <20080603141912.12f1333c@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 15:01:04 -0400 (EDT) Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > > Now, you have issues with all of that too. > > > > 1) How do you do it across the Project as a whole without resorting to > > a "timecard" that contributors punch. > > We make sure that everything is tied as clearly as possible to FAS2 > account info, and then we collect measurements where it makes sense. Right... so if you spend 20 hours working on a bug and a patch for it, the only thing you're going to get hits for in FAS are (assuming the tooling is in place) the individual bugzilla entries and the CVS commit. Those will tally totals of seconds. Unless you have a "Time Spent:" field in CVS (or bugzilla), which is essentially a punch card. (And prone to dubious entries.) > > 2) How do you get around the fact that some people might not want their > > contribution time tracked? > > We make it so that they don't have to do the work, and whenever we present > "metrics", we do it in such a way that we're never penalizing, only > rewarding. No volunteer wants to hear "you didn't do enough to suit us," > but many might like to hear "you did a tremendous amount of work that we > saw." And if that drives a bit of competition, so much the better. That isn't quite what I was thinking. What if people literally don't want any manhours spent on Fedora to be tracked at all? Good or bad? Contribution tracking is inevitable given the FAS account requirement. But time spent on said contributions can be a sensitive subject and not everyone may want to have that number floating around somewhere. > > 3) How do you account for transient contributors? E.g. The overall > > contribution time for a particular area may stay the same across two > > different time periods. It could be all from the same contributor > > base, or it could be spread across a bunch of different contributors > > that come and go. The wiki would likely be a decent example of the > > latter. > > It's got to be possible to track different kinds of contributions. How > many times did "gdk" edit the wiki? Check something into a repo? Show up > on various mailing lists? You are tracking contributions there, not manhours and time. If you want to track contributions, just have FAS tie into http://www.ohloh.net. > > 5) How do you quantify "intangibles" like helping people on #fedora? > > Make them tangible. Collect IRC screen names in FAS2, and do some > analysis. That's iffy at best. > > 6) How do you actively "recruit" people to areas that need help without > > driving them away altogether? > > By emphasizing them on the Join page, which is increasingly becoming an > effective vector into the project. Of course, the fact is that you can't > make a volunteer do anything they don't really want to do, which is > something we must be cognizant of at all times. Right, and that is sort of my point. Knowing what areas need help is one thing, but if said areas are perceived as boring or unrewarding then pimping them will only be so effective. So we can point people there, but we don't want to discourage them by not allowing them to work where their interest lies. josh From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Tue Jun 3 19:34:18 2008 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (seth vidal) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 15:34:18 -0400 Subject: Tracking contributions In-Reply-To: <20080603141912.12f1333c@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> References: <10e0a9b00805310809l6156b6casa130676aa8f4797b@mail.gmail.com> <1212318082.3044.6.camel@adam> <1212368093.6521.6.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806012035k6add8878j59c12515a3869376@mail.gmail.com> <20080602084206.7db78ddc@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <604aa7910806021341w4b4841b8r4c07f568438dc012@mail.gmail.com> <20080602173414.03eae681@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <20080603141912.12f1333c@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: <1212521658.3774.29.camel@cutter> On Tue, 2008-06-03 at 14:19 -0500, Josh Boyer wrote: > That isn't quite what I was thinking. What if people literally don't > want any manhours spent on Fedora to be tracked at all? Good or bad? > Contribution tracking is inevitable given the FAS account requirement. > But time spent on said contributions can be a sensitive subject and not > everyone may want to have that number floating around somewhere. +1. It's also demoralizing. I'd be irritated reporting hours/minutes/days spent on specific tasks for a paying job. I can't imagine doing it for a volunteer job. -sv From gdk at redhat.com Tue Jun 3 20:00:40 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 16:00:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Tracking contributions In-Reply-To: <20080603141912.12f1333c@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> References: <10e0a9b00805310809l6156b6casa130676aa8f4797b@mail.gmail.com> <1212318082.3044.6.camel@adam> <1212368093.6521.6.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806012035k6add8878j59c12515a3869376@mail.gmail.com> <20080602084206.7db78ddc@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <604aa7910806021341w4b4841b8r4c07f568438dc012@mail.gmail.com> <20080602173414.03eae681@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <20080603141912.12f1333c@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jun 2008, Josh Boyer wrote: >>> 1) How do you do it across the Project as a whole without resorting to >>> a "timecard" that contributors punch. >> >> We make sure that everything is tied as clearly as possible to FAS2 >> account info, and then we collect measurements where it makes sense. > > Right... so if you spend 20 hours working on a bug and a patch for it, > the only thing you're going to get hits for in FAS are (assuming the > tooling is in place) the individual bugzilla entries and the CVS > commit. Those will tally totals of seconds. You are focusing entirely too much on units of time. I'm thinking more about units of work. A patch is valuable. If someone puts even one patch in bugzilla, we should know about it. >>> 2) How do you get around the fact that some people might not want their >>> contribution time tracked? >> >> We make it so that they don't have to do the work, and whenever we present >> "metrics", we do it in such a way that we're never penalizing, only >> rewarding. No volunteer wants to hear "you didn't do enough to suit us," >> but many might like to hear "you did a tremendous amount of work that we >> saw." And if that drives a bit of competition, so much the better. > > That isn't quite what I was thinking. What if people literally don't > want any manhours spent on Fedora to be tracked at all? Good or bad? > Contribution tracking is inevitable given the FAS account requirement. > But time spent on said contributions can be a sensitive subject and not > everyone may want to have that number floating around somewhere. Again, you are focusing too much on time. I don't think anyone, Jef included, was looking for strict metrics of time. They're never worth the trouble. >>> 3) How do you account for transient contributors? E.g. The overall >>> contribution time for a particular area may stay the same across two >>> different time periods. It could be all from the same contributor >>> base, or it could be spread across a bunch of different contributors >>> that come and go. The wiki would likely be a decent example of the >>> latter. >> >> It's got to be possible to track different kinds of contributions. How >> many times did "gdk" edit the wiki? Check something into a repo? Show up >> on various mailing lists? > > You are tracking contributions there, not manhours and time. If you > want to track contributions, just have FAS tie into > http://www.ohloh.net. Sure. Just as soon as we can install our own open source Ohloh instance. :) >>> 5) How do you quantify "intangibles" like helping people on #fedora? >> >> Make them tangible. Collect IRC screen names in FAS2, and do some >> analysis. > > That's iffy at best. Why? It's data. Data is useful. It's not the pinnacle of civilization, but it is useful. >>> 6) How do you actively "recruit" people to areas that need help without >>> driving them away altogether? >>>> By emphasizing them on the Join page, which is increasingly becoming an >> effective vector into the project. Of course, the fact is that you can't >> make a volunteer do anything they don't really want to do, which is >> something we must be cognizant of at all times. > > Right, and that is sort of my point. Knowing what areas need help is > one thing, but if said areas are perceived as boring or unrewarding then > pimping them will only be so effective. So we can point people there, > but we don't want to discourage them by not allowing them to work where > their interest lies. Of course not. Look, metrics are important. Data is important. It helps you make better decisions. We shouldn't be ruled by data, but we shouldn't pass up sensible opportunities to collect it and analyze it, either. Even the most rudimentary data analysis can frequently tell you things you didn't know. --g From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Jun 3 20:10:10 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:10:10 -0800 Subject: Tracking contributions In-Reply-To: References: <1212318082.3044.6.camel@adam> <1212368093.6521.6.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806012035k6add8878j59c12515a3869376@mail.gmail.com> <20080602084206.7db78ddc@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <604aa7910806021341w4b4841b8r4c07f568438dc012@mail.gmail.com> <20080602173414.03eae681@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <20080603141912.12f1333c@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: <604aa7910806031310u23d2ecb5yec171755370121e@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 12:00 PM, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > You are focusing entirely too much on units of time. I'm thinking more > about units of work. A patch is valuable. If someone puts even one patch > in bugzilla, we should know about it. Yes, units of work. my original comment concerning office hours was in the context of organizing frontline help in #fedora because i think of time spent as the unit of work for that specific case. -jef From mspevack at redhat.com Tue Jun 3 20:19:52 2008 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 22:19:52 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Tracking contributions In-Reply-To: References: <10e0a9b00805310809l6156b6casa130676aa8f4797b@mail.gmail.com> <1212318082.3044.6.camel@adam> <1212368093.6521.6.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806012035k6add8878j59c12515a3869376@mail.gmail.com> <20080602084206.7db78ddc@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <604aa7910806021341w4b4841b8r4c07f568438dc012@mail.gmail.com> <20080602173414.03eae681@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <20080603141912.12f1333c@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jun 2008, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > Again, you are focusing too much on time. I don't think anyone, Jef > included, was looking for strict metrics of time. They're never worth > the trouble. +1 In my experience in the professional world, almost every time a group inside a company or organization is asked to account for how they spent their hours, it follows with much gnashing of teeth by the employees and general thinking that the management is doing it wrong. Am I wrong? Or are my experiences simply too narrow? --Max From mspevack at redhat.com Tue Jun 3 20:21:06 2008 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 22:21:06 +0200 (CEST) Subject: ccMixter up for grabs In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440806031117o419252fetde7f1b3fc4ed6eff@mail.gmail.com> References: <2cb10c440806031117o419252fetde7f1b3fc4ed6eff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jun 2008, Luis Villa wrote: > Ambitious, and outside of fedora's current core competency. Still, > worth exploring, I think. I love this email. What are you up to these days, my friend? I suppose I could just read your blog. Is it really a year already since we sat around at the Durham Bulls game? Man, time flies. Hope to see you soon, somewhere! --Max From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Tue Jun 3 20:28:12 2008 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (seth vidal) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 16:28:12 -0400 Subject: Tracking contributions In-Reply-To: References: <10e0a9b00805310809l6156b6casa130676aa8f4797b@mail.gmail.com> <1212318082.3044.6.camel@adam> <1212368093.6521.6.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806012035k6add8878j59c12515a3869376@mail.gmail.com> <20080602084206.7db78ddc@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <604aa7910806021341w4b4841b8r4c07f568438dc012@mail.gmail.com> <20080602173414.03eae681@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <20080603141912.12f1333c@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: <1212524892.3774.44.camel@cutter> On Tue, 2008-06-03 at 22:19 +0200, Max Spevack wrote: > On Tue, 3 Jun 2008, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > > > Again, you are focusing too much on time. I don't think anyone, Jef > > included, was looking for strict metrics of time. They're never worth > > the trouble. > > +1 > > In my experience in the professional world, almost every time a group > inside a company or organization is asked to account for how they spent > their hours, it follows with much gnashing of teeth by the employees and > general thinking that the management is doing it wrong. > > Am I wrong? Or are my experiences simply too narrow? > Your experiences are entirely accurate, ime. -sv From stickster at gmail.com Tue Jun 3 20:44:23 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 20:44:23 +0000 Subject: Tracking contributions In-Reply-To: References: <10e0a9b00805310809l6156b6casa130676aa8f4797b@mail.gmail.com> <1212318082.3044.6.camel@adam> <1212368093.6521.6.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806012035k6add8878j59c12515a3869376@mail.gmail.com> <20080602084206.7db78ddc@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <604aa7910806021341w4b4841b8r4c07f568438dc012@mail.gmail.com> <20080602173414.03eae681@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <20080603141912.12f1333c@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: <1212525863.4023.228.camel@victoria> On Tue, 2008-06-03 at 16:00 -0400, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > Look, metrics are important. Data is important. It helps you make better > decisions. We shouldn't be ruled by data, but we shouldn't pass up > sensible opportunities to collect it and analyze it, either. Even the > most rudimentary data analysis can frequently tell you things you didn't > know. {Bless,Curse} you, DeKoenigsberg, for your infinite ability to boil down the issue better than I. :-) -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jwboyer at gmail.com Tue Jun 3 20:52:50 2008 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 15:52:50 -0500 Subject: Tracking contributions In-Reply-To: <604aa7910806031310u23d2ecb5yec171755370121e@mail.gmail.com> References: <1212318082.3044.6.camel@adam> <1212368093.6521.6.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806012035k6add8878j59c12515a3869376@mail.gmail.com> <20080602084206.7db78ddc@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <604aa7910806021341w4b4841b8r4c07f568438dc012@mail.gmail.com> <20080602173414.03eae681@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <20080603141912.12f1333c@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <604aa7910806031310u23d2ecb5yec171755370121e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080603155250.1eef3c01@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:10:10 -0800 "Jeff Spaleta" wrote: > On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 12:00 PM, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > > You are focusing entirely too much on units of time. I'm thinking more > > about units of work. A patch is valuable. If someone puts even one patch > > in bugzilla, we should know about it. > > > Yes, units of work. my original comment concerning office hours was in > the context of organizing frontline help in #fedora because i think of > time spent as the unit of work for that specific case. Ok. Well units of work is much easier, and more palatable. Lesson learned for the day: Avoid the mention of the words "time" and/or "manhours" in all emails concerning tracking of things. josh From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Jun 3 21:03:34 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 13:03:34 -0800 Subject: Tracking contributions In-Reply-To: <20080603155250.1eef3c01@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> References: <604aa7910806012035k6add8878j59c12515a3869376@mail.gmail.com> <20080602084206.7db78ddc@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <604aa7910806021341w4b4841b8r4c07f568438dc012@mail.gmail.com> <20080602173414.03eae681@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <20080603141912.12f1333c@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <604aa7910806031310u23d2ecb5yec171755370121e@mail.gmail.com> <20080603155250.1eef3c01@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: <604aa7910806031403x704ddec7k5fdfd0737ad42ed8@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 12:52 PM, Josh Boyer wrote: > Avoid the mention of the words "time" and/or "manhours" in all > emails concerning tracking of things. Fine I'll just use manmonths, though manmicroseconds would look more impressive. The crux is, as we stand up new groups for a new work area or to re-organize existing work, I want some thought into a metric to use that makes sense for the work that new group is being created to do. If punching in makes the most sense for a helpdesk like #fedora, then so be it. I don't need the same metric for each group, but i do need something that makes sense as a metric so we can trend that groups growth and impact over time. -jef From jwboyer at gmail.com Tue Jun 3 21:13:25 2008 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 16:13:25 -0500 Subject: Tracking contributions In-Reply-To: <604aa7910806031403x704ddec7k5fdfd0737ad42ed8@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910806012035k6add8878j59c12515a3869376@mail.gmail.com> <20080602084206.7db78ddc@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <604aa7910806021341w4b4841b8r4c07f568438dc012@mail.gmail.com> <20080602173414.03eae681@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <20080603141912.12f1333c@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <604aa7910806031310u23d2ecb5yec171755370121e@mail.gmail.com> <20080603155250.1eef3c01@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <604aa7910806031403x704ddec7k5fdfd0737ad42ed8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080603161325.0fd3e2bf@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 13:03:34 -0800 "Jeff Spaleta" wrote: > On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 12:52 PM, Josh Boyer wrote: > > Avoid the mention of the words "time" and/or "manhours" in all > > emails concerning tracking of things. > > Fine I'll just use manmonths, though manmicroseconds would look more impressive. > > The crux is, as we stand up new groups for a new work area or to > re-organize existing work, I want some thought into a metric to use > that makes sense for the work that new group is being created to do. > If punching in makes the most sense for a helpdesk like #fedora, then > so be it. I don't need the same metric for each group, but i do need > something that makes sense as a metric so we can trend that groups > growth and impact over time. You're looking for a metric like "number of questions answered" or "number of people helped" for #fedora. Helpdesk type hours would certainly be helpful for #fedora, regardless of how you track your metrics, but there's more to being helpful than punching in and I think that is what you want to be tracking. My $0.02 anyway. josh From mspevack at redhat.com Tue Jun 3 21:15:34 2008 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 23:15:34 +0200 (CEST) Subject: ccMixter up for grabs In-Reply-To: References: <2cb10c440806031117o419252fetde7f1b3fc4ed6eff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Sorry, that reply should have just gone to Luis. --Max, mildly embarassed On Tue, 3 Jun 2008, Max Spevack wrote: > On Tue, 3 Jun 2008, Luis Villa wrote: > >> Ambitious, and outside of fedora's current core competency. Still, >> worth exploring, I think. > > I love this email. > > What are you up to these days, my friend? I suppose I could just read > your blog. > > Is it really a year already since we sat around at the Durham Bulls > game? Man, time flies. > > Hope to see you soon, somewhere! > > --Max From jwboyer at gmail.com Tue Jun 3 21:37:32 2008 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 16:37:32 -0500 Subject: ccMixter up for grabs In-Reply-To: References: <2cb10c440806031117o419252fetde7f1b3fc4ed6eff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080603163732.1de31b3d@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 23:15:34 +0200 (CEST) Max Spevack wrote: > Sorry, that reply should have just gone to Luis. > > --Max, mildly embarassed It's ok. We all miss Luis. josh From poelstra at redhat.com Tue Jun 3 23:44:00 2008 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 16:44:00 -0700 Subject: Tracking contributions In-Reply-To: References: <10e0a9b00805310809l6156b6casa130676aa8f4797b@mail.gmail.com> <1212318082.3044.6.camel@adam> <1212368093.6521.6.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806012035k6add8878j59c12515a3869376@mail.gmail.com> <20080602084206.7db78ddc@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <604aa7910806021341w4b4841b8r4c07f568438dc012@mail.gmail.com> <20080602173414.03eae681@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <20080603141912.12f1333c@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: <4845D740.10603@redhat.com> Max Spevack said the following on 06/03/2008 01:19 PM Pacific Time: > On Tue, 3 Jun 2008, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > >> Again, you are focusing too much on time. I don't think anyone, Jef >> included, was looking for strict metrics of time. They're never worth >> the trouble. > > +1 > > In my experience in the professional world, almost every time a group > inside a company or organization is asked to account for how they spent > their hours, it follows with much gnashing of teeth by the employees and > general thinking that the management is doing it wrong. > > Am I wrong? Or are my experiences simply too narrow? Yes and no. Gnashing of teeth is usually an indicator that the wrong the thing is being measured and is not useful. Shameless plug as we consider tracking contributions and creating satisfying place to work: http://poelcat.wordpress.com/2008/02/23/miserable/ John From mclasen at redhat.com Tue Jun 3 23:55:15 2008 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 19:55:15 -0400 Subject: Tracking contributions In-Reply-To: <4845D740.10603@redhat.com> References: <10e0a9b00805310809l6156b6casa130676aa8f4797b@mail.gmail.com> <1212318082.3044.6.camel@adam> <1212368093.6521.6.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806012035k6add8878j59c12515a3869376@mail.gmail.com> <20080602084206.7db78ddc@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <604aa7910806021341w4b4841b8r4c07f568438dc012@mail.gmail.com> <20080602173414.03eae681@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <20080603141912.12f1333c@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <4845D740.10603@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1212537315.4899.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> I missed most of this thread, but I felt like I should point out this post http://taschenorakel.de/mathias/2007/12/22/no-privacy-foss-developers/ as an example that not everyone is happy to be measured, monitored and tracked around the clock. Maybe thats an old-fashioned sentiment in this time and day... Matthias From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed Jun 4 00:47:57 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 16:47:57 -0800 Subject: Tracking contributions In-Reply-To: <20080603161325.0fd3e2bf@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> References: <604aa7910806021341w4b4841b8r4c07f568438dc012@mail.gmail.com> <20080602173414.03eae681@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <20080603141912.12f1333c@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <604aa7910806031310u23d2ecb5yec171755370121e@mail.gmail.com> <20080603155250.1eef3c01@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <604aa7910806031403x704ddec7k5fdfd0737ad42ed8@mail.gmail.com> <20080603161325.0fd3e2bf@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: <604aa7910806031747h2b22bde6j67aefaec92f67793@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 1:13 PM, Josh Boyer wrote: > You're looking for a metric like "number of questions answered" or > "number of people helped" for #fedora. Helpdesk type hours would > certainly be helpful for #fedora, regardless of how you track your > metrics, but there's more to being helpful than punching in and I think > that is what you want to be tracking. tracking number of people helped would actually be more effort than just clocking in office hours. There is a balance to be struck. I'm not expecting to be able to have answers to everything that i could ask for with the granularity i could ever hope for. We need metrics that means something but also minimize the amount of extra work by the contributors. For other areas, we have tools that we require to use that produce their own interaction logs that we can datamine. The technical processes we have in place build in useful interaction logging that we can make use of. Trying to mine irc logs or even mailinglist threads for subtle things like 'number of users helped' may simply be out of reach of what we can effectively toolize. So to answer those questions we end up asking people to 'clock-in' every time they do the unit of work as an extra step just to do the metric...that's not what we want. That isn't to say that someone couldn't create the necessary ircbot that fedora helpers could register units of work with.. if that is what the particular group of contributors wants to do to provide a metric. All I ask is that when we set up new groups, the group of contributors who are going to be working on that task think provide a metric for us to trend and agree to use that metric as part of startup phase of the new group's workflow. The processes of organizing the work need to include a metric we can trend. For the case of #fedora like helpdesk work, organizing officehours helps provides 24/7 coverage as a goal for the group and at the same time we can use that information to trend contributions. So back to the original question... mentoring which is not the same as what a #fedora helpdesk does. I don't think anyone has come up with a mentoring process or workflow that incorporates something we can trend. -jef From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed Jun 4 01:10:53 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 17:10:53 -0800 Subject: Tracking contributions In-Reply-To: <1212537315.4899.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20080602084206.7db78ddc@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <604aa7910806021341w4b4841b8r4c07f568438dc012@mail.gmail.com> <20080602173414.03eae681@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <20080603141912.12f1333c@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <4845D740.10603@redhat.com> <1212537315.4899.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <604aa7910806031810w1c69ab93wa668349679935bc1@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 3:55 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote: > I missed most of this thread, but I felt like I should point out this > post > http://taschenorakel.de/mathias/2007/12/22/no-privacy-foss-developers/ > as an example that not everyone is happy to be measured, monitored and > tracked around the clock. Maybe thats an old-fashioned sentiment in this > time and day... Clearly the discussion is focusing on the wrong thing. I've no desire to mandate the minute by minute activity of all contributors be tracked. We do not need that level of granularity for resource planning. Voluntary details of individual contributor activities would certainly help if we we talking about building a competitive recognition system..but that's is not what we are talking about doing. I am not talking about collecting trending information in a way that directly compares the value of individual contributions. I'm talking about making an effort to collect information on a subgroup impact and growth for overall project planning purposes so we can have more information to work with for resource planning and perhaps to get ahead of bottlenecks in subgroup interactions.. I've no desire to mandate to subgroups what specific metric to trend. I'd much rather prefer that individual subgroups tell me what metric to trend. What I need is for individual subgroups to value the value of trending the work they are doing as a group so they will incorporate a metric that is relevant into their workflow. -jef From luis at tieguy.org Wed Jun 4 05:28:32 2008 From: luis at tieguy.org (Luis Villa) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 22:28:32 -0700 Subject: ccMixter up for grabs In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440806031117o419252fetde7f1b3fc4ed6eff@mail.gmail.com> References: <2cb10c440806031117o419252fetde7f1b3fc4ed6eff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2cb10c440806032228h1a32e649se7c5ab291429052b@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 11:17 AM, Luis Villa wrote: > Ambitious, and outside of fedora's current core competency. Still, > worth exploring, I think. Expanding on this a bit, since Max bizarrely seemed to love it, and since the other thing I have to do tonight is writing out minutes (boooooring.) Fedora's core competency is, it seems to me, matching Red Hat engineering expertise with community contributions to create products that can be said, reasonably objectively, to work or not work. Running ccmixter might have some critical differences. The following are questions I have that probably could help determine whether or not these differences exist and/or matter: * 'community contributions': who is the ccmixter community? who in the current fedora community has the right interests/skills to reach out to the existing ccmixter community? to grow the ccmixter community? Are the contributions to ccmixter similar in kind to fedora contributions, or are they different in some way that matters? * 'products': Fedora marketing and organization is built around the release of software, primarily in large blobs (aka releases.) ccmixter, at the moment, doesn't seem to release things that way: AFAICS, it comes out in dribs and drabs (songs) rather than releases (albums, radio stations). Does this matter? * 'objectively work or not work': it has always seemed to me that the reasonably objective nature of software (it works, or doesn't, roughly speaking) helps free software processes. Obviously, musical 'goodness' is more subjective. Does this matter? * success: in focusing on core competencies, I'm blithely assuming that Fedora is competent :) How does Fedora measure success/competence? do those measures transfer over to ccmixter? I do think that there is an obvious ideological alignment between Fedora and ccmixter. But that can't be enough- there needs to be pragmatic alignment as well. Hopefully these questions help stimulate discussion about that pragmatic alignment. Luis (I miss you too, Max ;) From poelstra at redhat.com Wed Jun 4 18:24:22 2008 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 11:24:22 -0700 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2008-JUN-03 Message-ID: <4846DDD6.1090600@redhat.com> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/Meetings/2008-06-03 == Roll Call == Attendees: Paul Frields, John Poelstra, Matt Domsch, Bill Nottingham, Steve Dickson, Karsten Wade, Dennis Gilmore, Seth Vidal Regrets: Jef Spaleta, Chris Aillon == Followup to Previous Business == === Codeina (2008-05-13) === * Need to restart discussion on fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com to get plans in place at the start of F10 * Chris Aillon to make contact with Bastien Nocera to find out what current plans are * Deferred to next meeting == New Business == === Fedora 9 Postmortem === * Reviewed ideas from board and Red Hat engineering * Individual members will disburse ideas to Fedora mailing lists * These are NOT board mandates, but simply ideas the project may want to make happen in terms of making the next Fedora release better == Future Business (discuss at a future meeting) == === Fedora Organizational Structure === * Hold special meeting to focus on organizational structure * Need online collaborative space to guide discussion. Steve Dickson will research options by Friday. * OWNER: Paul Frields & Steve Dickson * ACTIONS: * Invite FESCo memebers to meeting * Set date & time * Enable online collaboration tool From kwade at redhat.com Wed Jun 4 22:35:48 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 15:35:48 -0700 Subject: [Fedora-music-list] ccMixter up for grabs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1212618948.11567.63.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Mon, 2008-06-02 at 14:02 -0400, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > http://creativecommons.org/weblog/entry/8323 > > So. Let's say that Red Hat could find a full-time head to manage this. > > Do we think that we could come up with a community model to support > ccMixter? Yes, but it would take a vision that could do battle with the places where music's needs are not like other content we know about. Also, having a community representative who can use and contribute back to the music base is pretty key. Endorsements such as DJ Spooky would be key to attracting new community. Music source is one of the tough aspects here. People use tools with formats that are varying degrees of usable/openable as tracks in another program. The barrier is too high with ccMixter being full of samples and pieces. To grow a big enough community, we need to give budding musicians the equivalent of "view source." That's the kind of value I could see Fedora bringing -- big-scale, open contributing communities, growing under the sun. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Sr. Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From smooge at gmail.com Thu Jun 5 18:16:56 2008 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:16:56 -0600 Subject: Going home on Western? (fwd) In-Reply-To: <1212520669.8355.221.camel@calliope.phig.org> References: <20080602212317.GA23874@redhat.com> <80d7e4090806021522o8417ae8q7b1f408cfaffdff1@mail.gmail.com> <20080602223422.GB23874@redhat.com> <1212520669.8355.221.camel@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <80d7e4090806051116o3adcafdbj7fddeaf462b3f385@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 1:17 PM, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > > On Tue, 2008-06-03 at 09:25 -0400, Jon Stanley wrote: >> On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 6:34 PM, Dave Jones wrote: >> >> > That isn't helping my lack of bojangles situation any. >> >> Maybe they have specials on fried chicken now :). Sorry, bad joke I >> know, couldn't resist :) > > Bojangles don't do BBQ smoked chicken! > I was going to say Bo knows chicken and bisquits but saw that Bo Didley died this week.. Missed out on Bojangles.. so Dave Jones and I are even still. > -- > Karsten Wade, Sr. Developer Community Mgr. > Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com > Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org > gpg key : AD0E0C41 > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board > > -- Stephen J Smoogen. -- BSD/GNU/Linux How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice" From stickster at gmail.com Fri Jun 6 11:36:05 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 07:36:05 -0400 Subject: I am running for Fedora Board In-Reply-To: <1212090937.16130.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1212090937.16130.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1212752165.8253.161.camel@victoria> On Thu, 2008-05-29 at 15:55 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > I intend to run for Fedora Board Election, primarily on the platform of > inter-project relationship management. As our projects gains more and > more contributors and continues to improve our infrastructure it will > become more compelling for our project to interact with other projects > at a contributor and infrastructure level. Case in point JPackage. > There are other cases of course, and I hope to grow our relationships > with these other projects and further the spirit of Open Source through > collaboration. Jesse, Sorry to follow up on this late. Go ahead and put some information on the nominations page, to which we'll be directing voters during the election run-up: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/Elections/Nominations Thanks! -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jkeating at redhat.com Fri Jun 6 13:37:23 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 09:37:23 -0400 Subject: I am running for Fedora Board In-Reply-To: <1212752165.8253.161.camel@victoria> References: <1212090937.16130.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1212752165.8253.161.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <1212759443.9688.85.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2008-06-06 at 07:36 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > Sorry to follow up on this late. Go ahead and put some information on > the nominations page, to which we'll be directing voters during the > election run-up: > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/Elections/Nominations Done. Cheers! -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Jun 11 20:34:05 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 20:34:05 +0000 Subject: Board elections Message-ID: <1213216445.20180.125.camel@victoria> The following candidates have been nominated for the Board elections that run from 0001 UTC 2008-06-13 until 2359 UTC 2008-06-22. Jon Stanley (jds2001) Tom Callaway (spot) Josh Boyer (jwb) Jonathan Roberts (JonRob) Seth Vidal (skvidal) Dennis Gilmore (irc:dgilmore fas:ausil) Jef Spaleta (irc:spoleeba fas:jspaleta) Jesse Keating (irc:f13 fas:jkeating) Nigel, please enter these in the voting system as the nominees, and set the voting time as shown above. Thanks for all your help in revamping our voting system, which hundreds of community members (maybe thousands? I can dream) will hopefully use to elect some of the next year's Fedora leadership. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From matt at domsch.com Wed Jun 11 21:25:48 2008 From: matt at domsch.com (Matt Domsch) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 16:25:48 -0500 Subject: Board elections In-Reply-To: <1213216445.20180.125.camel@victoria> References: <1213216445.20180.125.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <20080611212548.GB29377@domsch.com> On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 08:34:05PM +0000, Paul W. Frields wrote: > The following candidates have been nominated for the Board elections > that run from 0001 UTC 2008-06-13 until 2359 UTC 2008-06-22. > > Jon Stanley (jds2001) > Tom Callaway (spot) > Josh Boyer (jwb) > Jonathan Roberts (JonRob) > Seth Vidal (skvidal) > Dennis Gilmore (irc:dgilmore fas:ausil) > Jef Spaleta (irc:spoleeba fas:jspaleta) > Jesse Keating (irc:f13 fas:jkeating) Thank you all for stepping up, and volunteering even more of your valuable time to Fedora. You are each respected leaders already, and I look forward to our continued contributions, regardless of the election outcome. I also think it's fantastic that we are fielding such a strong slate - evidence of the growth of Fedora as a whole and the commitment it's members are making. -Matt From stickster at gmail.com Thu Jun 12 20:48:58 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 16:48:58 -0400 Subject: Board Elections open on 13 June Message-ID: <1213303738.18352.87.camel@victoria> SHORT FORM: ----------- Elections for the Fedora Project Board open at 0001 UTC on 13 June 2008 -- or about 3.5 hours from the time of this message. The voting system is available at: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/voting The voting system uses the range voting method: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Range_voting ?Any FAS account holder who has completed the CLA may vote in the election. Voting is open until 2359 UTC on 22 June 2008. Election results will be announced shortly thereafter. The final appointed seat on the Board will be filled after the general election as well. Thank you to all the Board members whose seats are up for election, to Nigel Jones for our new voting application, and to the community in advance, for casting their votes for Fedora leadership. LONG FORM (including nominees and other background): ---------------------------------------------------- Recently we converted one Red Hat-appointed seat to a community-elected seat, so there are now five (5) elected seats and four (4) appointed seats. To even out the Board turnover, community members have the opportunity to vote for four (4) elected seats in this election. The elected person with the fourth-highest vote total will serve a half-length term, with that seat being back up for election after the release of Fedora 10. In addition, Karsten Wade's appointment has been extended by six months. This means that after the release of Fedora 10, we will elect two seats and appoint two seats, thus returning to a turnover of roughly half the Board after each release of Fedora. The seats of current Board members Jef Spaleta, Dennis Gilmore, Chris Aillon, and Bob McWhirter are being vacated in this election. ?In addition, the seats of Steve Dickson and Seth Vidal, Board members appointed by Red Hat, are also being vacated. Steve is to be succeeded by Harald Hoyer, and the final appointment will be announced after the general Board elections are over. I would like to thank each of these people for the time and effort they've put into vigorously representing the entire Fedora community on the Board. ?The processes are documented on the Fedora wiki at: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/Elections In the past few days, the Board and I realized that our guidelines hadn't been updated to match the current FAS implementation, so I've updated them appropriately with the approval of the Board. The election system has changed from approval voting to range voting, but no actual changes have been made in voting requirements. The wording on the wiki has been changed to accurately reflect how the new Fedora Account System works. The nominees for the four elected seats, in no particular order, are: Jon Stanley (jds2001) Tom Callaway (spot) Josh Boyer (jwb) Jonathan Roberts (JonRob) Seth Vidal (skvidal) Dennis Gilmore (irc:dgilmore fas:ausil) Jef Spaleta (irc:spoleeba fas:jspaleta) Jesse Keating (irc:f13 fas:jkeating) Note that you do not have to cast a vote blindly -- you can feel free to ask questions of the candidates. Email them, or feel free to ask your questions on a list they frequent, such as the fedora-advisory-board list: http://redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board The nominees have also placed some summary information about their background and goals on the wiki nominations page: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/Elections/Nominations These summaries are also available from the "Info" link next to each candidate's name in the voting system. To cast your vote, visit: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/voting If you have any problems with voting, report them immediately in the ticket system, at: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/tickets Use the "elections" category when you file your ticket so that it is directed quickly to the appropriate parties. * * * I'd like everyone voting to remember that this isn't a popularity contest, or a reward system. Think about how you'd like to Board to look when you vote, the same way you think about how you'd like any government body to look when you cast votes for their elections. We have a lot of worthy candidates on this list, and you should pick the ones that you feel will best represent you in advancing the Fedora Project. This is one of numerous ways in which our community makes decisions about the leadership of Fedora. Your vote counts, and I hope you take advantage of it. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Jun 16 16:27:12 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 21:57:12 +0530 Subject: [Fwd: AskFedora: What is the enhanced usage model or user experience model for Fedora?] Message-ID: <48569460.1020003@fedoraproject.org> Hi, Interesting question. If anyone wants to take a stab at it? Rahul -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: James Scott Jr Subject: AskFedora: What is the enhanced usage model or user experience model for Fedora? Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 01:47:00 -0400 Size: 7424 URL: From poelstra at redhat.com Tue Jun 17 13:03:48 2008 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 09:03:48 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board & FESCo Recap 2008-JUN-09 Message-ID: <4857B634.9070505@redhat.com> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/Meetings/2008-06-09 = Fedora Project Board & FESCo Meeting :: Monday 2008-06-09 = * Attendees: Seth Vidal, Dennis Gilmore, Chris Aillon, Spot, Bill Nottingham, Karsten Wade, Jeff Spaleta, Matt Domsch, M?ir?n Duffy, Paul Frields, Jesse Keating, Jason Tibbits, Jeremy Katz, Josh Boyer, Christian Iseli, and John Poelstra. == Background == * Both boards met in a joint session to discuss the future of FESCo * Meeting called as a result of FESCo's query to the board as to what its purpose is * History on feature process and FESCo: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2007-June/msg00022.html == Proposed Approach == * https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Pfrields/Drafts/Roles == Possible Role of FESCo == # Software in Fedora--"if you affect the distro" # Features # Oversight of SIGs * No common agreement on this == SIGS == * Example of a SIG: KDE, Robotics, Astronomy, Python, $LANG * Not a SIG: Artwork, Ambassadors, Infrastructure * No Governance Model * Outreach-Oriented Groups * Nuts & Bolts Tech-Oriented == Meeting Outcome == === Fedora Board Actions === * The board has not changed its stance that FESCo owns the feature process * The board will meet to determine the other things that FESCo should be responsible for * The board define roles that it has for FESCo going forward === FESCo Actions === * FESCo to provide the following to the Fedora Board # summary of their other ongoing work # what their current focus areas are * FESCo will lay out what they want to be responsible for going forward From poelstra at redhat.com Tue Jun 17 15:22:36 2008 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 11:22:36 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2008-JUN-10 Message-ID: <4857D6BC.9050805@redhat.com> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/Meetings/2008-06-10 == Roll Call == * Attendees: Steve Dickson, Chris Aillon, Matt Domsch, Bill Nottingham, John Poelstra, Paul Frields, Seth Vidal, Karsten Wade, Jeff Spaleta * Regrets: Dennis Gilmore == Followup to Previous Business == === Fedora Organizational Structure (2008-06-03) === * Joint meeting with Board and FESCo held on 2008-06-09 ** http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/Meetings/2008-06-09 ** Proposed roles: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Pfrields/Drafts/Roles * The board has not change its stance that FESCo owns the feature process * Lengthy discussion about the path forward == Future Business (discuss at a future meeting) == === Codeina (2008-05-13) === * Need to restart discussion on fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com to get plans in place at the start of F10 * Chris Aillon to make contact with Bastien Nocera to find out what current plans are === Secondary Architectures === * ia64 is close to coming online and two issues need to be resolved to move forward: # Packages are signed with a fedora-ia64 specific key and the repository keys are hard coded in the fedora-release package as the main Fedora and Fedora beta keys. # The download baseurl (outside of the mirror lists, which are correctly handled) will be at secondary.fedoraproject.org (or whatever). Therefore they can not spin a release from Fedora packages. * Is this a board issue to resolve or simply an information update to the board to keep them updated? From ivazqueznet at gmail.com Tue Jun 17 17:03:26 2008 From: ivazqueznet at gmail.com (Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 13:03:26 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2008-JUN-10 In-Reply-To: <4857D6BC.9050805@redhat.com> References: <4857D6BC.9050805@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1213722206.10118.126.camel@ignacio.lan> On Tue, 2008-06-17 at 11:22 -0400, John Poelstra wrote: > # The download baseurl (outside of the mirror lists, which are correctly > handled) will be at secondary.fedoraproject.org (or whatever). Okay. > Therefore they can not spin a release from Fedora packages. Wait, what? -- Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams PLEASE don't CC me; I'm already subscribed -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jkeating at redhat.com Tue Jun 17 17:24:26 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 13:24:26 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2008-JUN-10 In-Reply-To: <1213722206.10118.126.camel@ignacio.lan> References: <4857D6BC.9050805@redhat.com> <1213722206.10118.126.camel@ignacio.lan> Message-ID: <1213723466.13481.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2008-06-17 at 13:03 -0400, Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams wrote: > On Tue, 2008-06-17 at 11:22 -0400, John Poelstra wrote: > > # The download baseurl (outside of the mirror lists, which are > correctly > > handled) will be at secondary.fedoraproject.org (or whatever). > > Okay. > > > Therefore they can not spin a release from Fedora packages. > > Wait, what? The URL thing is less of a concern than the fedora-release package and the gpg key. We're going to have to change the way fedora-release puts gpg keys on the file system to accommodate secondary arches. For the URL, we'll likely need a redirect for the secondary arch folders, but the problem there is that we don't directly control the http servers that run for download.fedora.redhat.com. So there is discussion about changing the baseurl= entry in the yum repo files to instead make use of mirrormanager, which has some disadvantages in putting all our eggs into mirrormanager, and if it goes down, there is no pre-listed baseurl to fall back to. We're going to hash out some of these things at FUDCon. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From doug.chapman at hp.com Tue Jun 17 18:11:40 2008 From: doug.chapman at hp.com (Doug Chapman) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 14:11:40 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2008-JUN-10 In-Reply-To: <4857D6BC.9050805@redhat.com> References: <4857D6BC.9050805@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1213726300.13650.2.camel@deimos.americas.hpqcorp.net> On Tue, 2008-06-17 at 11:22 -0400, John Poelstra wrote: > > > === Secondary Architectures === > * ia64 is close to coming online and two issues need to be resolved to > move forward: > # Packages are signed with a fedora-ia64 specific key and the repository > keys are hard coded in the fedora-release package as the main Fedora and > Fedora beta keys. We have possible solutions for this but we are going to discuss this at fudcon to be sure what we do makes sense in the long run. > # The download baseurl (outside of the mirror lists, which are correctly > handled) will be at secondary.fedoraproject.org (or whatever). > Therefore they can not spin a release from Fedora packages. Huh? Even I don't understand this. We have no problems spinning releases. - Doug From ivazqueznet at gmail.com Tue Jun 17 21:54:24 2008 From: ivazqueznet at gmail.com (Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 17:54:24 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2008-JUN-10 In-Reply-To: <1213723466.13481.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4857D6BC.9050805@redhat.com> <1213722206.10118.126.camel@ignacio.lan> <1213723466.13481.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1213739664.10118.136.camel@ignacio.lan> On Tue, 2008-06-17 at 13:24 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Tue, 2008-06-17 at 13:03 -0400, Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams wrote: > > On Tue, 2008-06-17 at 11:22 -0400, John Poelstra wrote: > > > # The download baseurl (outside of the mirror lists, which are > > correctly > > > handled) will be at secondary.fedoraproject.org (or whatever). > > > > Okay. > > > > > Therefore they can not spin a release from Fedora packages. > > > > Wait, what? > > The URL thing is less of a concern than the fedora-release package and > the gpg key. We're going to have to change the way fedora-release puts > gpg keys on the file system to accommodate secondary arches. Ah, I get it now. Thanks. -- Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams PLEASE don't CC me; I'm already subscribed -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ivazqueznet at gmail.com Tue Jun 17 21:54:41 2008 From: ivazqueznet at gmail.com (Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 17:54:41 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2008-JUN-10 In-Reply-To: <1213726300.13650.2.camel@deimos.americas.hpqcorp.net> References: <4857D6BC.9050805@redhat.com> <1213726300.13650.2.camel@deimos.americas.hpqcorp.net> Message-ID: <1213739681.10118.139.camel@ignacio.lan> On Tue, 2008-06-17 at 14:11 -0400, Doug Chapman wrote: > On Tue, 2008-06-17 at 11:22 -0400, John Poelstra wrote: > > > > > > > === Secondary Architectures === > > * ia64 is close to coming online and two issues need to be resolved to > > move forward: > > # Packages are signed with a fedora-ia64 specific key and the repository > > keys are hard coded in the fedora-release package as the main Fedora and > > Fedora beta keys. > > We have possible solutions for this but we are going to discuss this at > fudcon to be sure what we do makes sense in the long run. > > > # The download baseurl (outside of the mirror lists, which are correctly > > handled) will be at secondary.fedoraproject.org (or whatever). > > Therefore they can not spin a release from Fedora packages. > > Huh? Even I don't understand this. We have no problems spinning > releases. But you can't use the stock fedora-release package since it doesn't have the repo definitions or keys you need. -- Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams PLEASE don't CC me; I'm already subscribed -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 11:44:47 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 07:44:47 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board election results Message-ID: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> The results of the Fedora Project Board elections are in: Tom Callaway, Jesse Keating and Seth Vidal have been elected to full two-release terms, and Jef Spaleta is re-elected to a one-release term. Red Hat will announce its final appointment to the Board within the next couple of days, completing this cycle. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 13:16:55 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 09:16:55 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <1214313415.3825.65.camel@victoria> On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 07:44 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > The results of the Fedora Project Board elections are in: Tom Callaway, > Jesse Keating and Seth Vidal have been elected to full two-release > terms, and Jef Spaleta is re-elected to a one-release term. > > Red Hat will announce its final appointment to the Board within the next > couple of days, completing this cycle. The full GPG-signed information from our election coordinator, Nigel Jones, including vote totals, is attached hereto. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: fedoraboard08results.txt Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 1742 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mmcgrath at redhat.com Tue Jun 24 13:25:58 2008 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 08:25:58 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Jun 2008, Paul W. Frields wrote: > The results of the Fedora Project Board elections are in: Tom Callaway, > Jesse Keating and Seth Vidal have been elected to full two-release > terms, and Jef Spaleta is re-elected to a one-release term. > > Red Hat will announce its final appointment to the Board within the next > couple of days, completing this cycle. > Just an observation (not a complaint or anything) but it is funny that the first election where Red Hat has the fewest appointed seats has resulted in Red Hat employees holding the most seats. -Mike From stickster at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 14:54:49 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 10:54:49 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <1214319289.3825.106.camel@victoria> On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 08:25 -0500, Mike McGrath wrote: > On Tue, 24 Jun 2008, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > > The results of the Fedora Project Board elections are in: Tom Callaway, > > Jesse Keating and Seth Vidal have been elected to full two-release > > terms, and Jef Spaleta is re-elected to a one-release term. > > > > Red Hat will announce its final appointment to the Board within the next > > couple of days, completing this cycle. > > > > Just an observation (not a complaint or anything) but it is funny that the > first election where Red Hat has the fewest appointed seats has resulted > in Red Hat employees holding the most seats. Actually, not necessarily -- we've had 6 Red Hat employees as Board members before, and that very well may end up being the final count this time also. Remember that Red Hat isn't required to tap employees for appointed seats... ;-) -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jwboyer at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 15:04:31 2008 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 11:04:31 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <1214319289.3825.106.camel@victoria> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <1214319289.3825.106.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <1214319871.7272.0.camel@weaponx> On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 10:54 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 08:25 -0500, Mike McGrath wrote: > > On Tue, 24 Jun 2008, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > > > > The results of the Fedora Project Board elections are in: Tom Callaway, > > > Jesse Keating and Seth Vidal have been elected to full two-release > > > terms, and Jef Spaleta is re-elected to a one-release term. > > > > > > Red Hat will announce its final appointment to the Board within the next > > > couple of days, completing this cycle. > > > > > > > Just an observation (not a complaint or anything) but it is funny that the > > first election where Red Hat has the fewest appointed seats has resulted > > in Red Hat employees holding the most seats. > > Actually, not necessarily -- we've had 6 Red Hat employees as Board > members before, and that very well may end up being the final count this > time also. Remember that Red Hat isn't required to tap employees for > appointed seats... ;-) Is there any sort of criteria they use to pick the last seat? I'm just curious. josh From stickster at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 15:34:00 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 11:34:00 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <1214319871.7272.0.camel@weaponx> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <1214319289.3825.106.camel@victoria> <1214319871.7272.0.camel@weaponx> Message-ID: <1214321640.3825.113.camel@victoria> On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 11:04 -0400, Josh Boyer wrote: > On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 10:54 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 08:25 -0500, Mike McGrath wrote: > > > On Tue, 24 Jun 2008, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > > > > > > The results of the Fedora Project Board elections are in: Tom Callaway, > > > > Jesse Keating and Seth Vidal have been elected to full two-release > > > > terms, and Jef Spaleta is re-elected to a one-release term. > > > > > > > > Red Hat will announce its final appointment to the Board within the next > > > > couple of days, completing this cycle. > > > > > > > > > > Just an observation (not a complaint or anything) but it is funny that the > > > first election where Red Hat has the fewest appointed seats has resulted > > > in Red Hat employees holding the most seats. > > > > Actually, not necessarily -- we've had 6 Red Hat employees as Board > > members before, and that very well may end up being the final count this > > time also. Remember that Red Hat isn't required to tap employees for > > appointed seats... ;-) > > Is there any sort of criteria they use to pick the last seat? I'm just > curious. The last seat is picked with the goal of balancing the background of the other seats on the Board. -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jwboyer at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 16:02:04 2008 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 12:02:04 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <1214321640.3825.113.camel@victoria> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <1214319289.3825.106.camel@victoria> <1214319871.7272.0.camel@weaponx> <1214321640.3825.113.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <1214323324.14225.4.camel@weaponx> On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 11:34 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 11:04 -0400, Josh Boyer wrote: > > On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 10:54 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > > On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 08:25 -0500, Mike McGrath wrote: > > > > On Tue, 24 Jun 2008, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > > > > > > > > The results of the Fedora Project Board elections are in: Tom Callaway, > > > > > Jesse Keating and Seth Vidal have been elected to full two-release > > > > > terms, and Jef Spaleta is re-elected to a one-release term. > > > > > > > > > > Red Hat will announce its final appointment to the Board within the next > > > > > couple of days, completing this cycle. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just an observation (not a complaint or anything) but it is funny that the > > > > first election where Red Hat has the fewest appointed seats has resulted > > > > in Red Hat employees holding the most seats. > > > > > > Actually, not necessarily -- we've had 6 Red Hat employees as Board > > > members before, and that very well may end up being the final count this > > > time also. Remember that Red Hat isn't required to tap employees for > > > appointed seats... ;-) > > > > Is there any sort of criteria they use to pick the last seat? I'm just > > curious. > > The last seat is picked with the goal of balancing the background of the > other seats on the Board. Interesting. Given the prevalence of FPC/Rel-Eng/FESCo members now on the new Board, I'd recommend picking someone that has nothing to do with those at all. Jon Roberts might be a good pick there. Not that my suggestion makes a difference, but it might be worth noting. josh From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 16:18:43 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 08:18:43 -0800 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 5:25 AM, Mike McGrath wrote: > Just an observation (not a complaint or anything) but it is funny that the > first election where Red Hat has the fewest appointed seats has resulted > in Red Hat employees holding the most seats. I'd like to see some aggregate breakdown of the voters if I could. Questions I'm interested in. % of voters who were redhat employees and is it in proportion to the % of eligible voters. relative voters turnout by country or region of origin. Do we have aggregate information on contributor country of origin numbers to compare with? -jef"And no I'm not just trying to find another way to make a pretty map."spaleta From mmcgrath at redhat.com Tue Jun 24 16:21:25 2008 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 11:21:25 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Jun 2008, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 5:25 AM, Mike McGrath wrote: > > Just an observation (not a complaint or anything) but it is funny that the > > first election where Red Hat has the fewest appointed seats has resulted > > in Red Hat employees holding the most seats. > > > I'd like to see some aggregate breakdown of the voters if I could. > Questions I'm interested in. > > % of voters who were redhat employees and is it in proportion to the % > of eligible voters. > > relative voters turnout by country or region of origin. Do we have > aggregate information on contributor country of origin numbers to > compare with? > I'd worry people wouldn't be as open about voting if we start poking around at who they're voting for and try to infer some result from that. -Mike From jwboyer at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 16:23:49 2008 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 12:23:49 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 08:18 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 5:25 AM, Mike McGrath wrote: > > Just an observation (not a complaint or anything) but it is funny that the > > first election where Red Hat has the fewest appointed seats has resulted > > in Red Hat employees holding the most seats. > > > I'd like to see some aggregate breakdown of the voters if I could. > Questions I'm interested in. > > % of voters who were redhat employees and is it in proportion to the % > of eligible voters. > > relative voters turnout by country or region of origin. Do we have > aggregate information on contributor country of origin numbers to > compare with? ?What purpose would getting the answers to those questions serve? josh From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 16:28:48 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 08:28:48 -0800 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910806240928l913bb64k16b7c4133887b667@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 8:21 AM, Mike McGrath wrote: > I'd worry people wouldn't be as open about voting if we start poking > around at who they're voting for and try to infer some result from that. I don't want to see who people voted for. I want to get a sense of who is voting in aggregate. I'm not particularly happy with the voter turn out. And if I can identify some sort of grouping that was under represented, I think that's important information to know. -jef"I'm only in for a release cycle, I need to start campaigning now! Going after under represented groups is a strong campaign strategy."spaleta From jwboyer at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 16:28:51 2008 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 12:28:51 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1214324931.14225.14.camel@weaponx> On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 11:21 -0500, Mike McGrath wrote: > On Tue, 24 Jun 2008, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 5:25 AM, Mike McGrath wrote: > > > Just an observation (not a complaint or anything) but it is funny that the > > > first election where Red Hat has the fewest appointed seats has resulted > > > in Red Hat employees holding the most seats. > > > > > > I'd like to see some aggregate breakdown of the voters if I could. > > Questions I'm interested in. > > > > % of voters who were redhat employees and is it in proportion to the % > > of eligible voters. > > > > relative voters turnout by country or region of origin. Do we have > > aggregate information on contributor country of origin numbers to > > compare with? > > > > I'd worry people wouldn't be as open about voting if we start poking > around at who they're voting for and try to infer some result from that. He didn't ask for who people voted for. He is just looking for demographics of the voting body. Why, I don't know. But the data he's asking for still ensures the individual votes are "anonymous" to the public. josh From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 16:40:21 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 08:40:21 -0800 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> Message-ID: <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 8:23 AM, Josh Boyer wrote: > ?What purpose would getting the answers to those questions serve? If we are unhappy with the total voter turnout and want to do something about it for the next election... then making an effort to identify if there is an imbalance in the voting would be worthwhile. Did our European contributors vote in proportion to their cla numbers compared to the North American contributors? If not.. then we know to lean on Max and try to get those numbers up for the next election. He should be fluent in European by now, so he shouldn't need any help traveling the countryside gathering voters in his wake. -jef From jwboyer at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 17:12:04 2008 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 13:12:04 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 08:40 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 8:23 AM, Josh Boyer wrote: > > ?What purpose would getting the answers to those questions serve? > > If we are unhappy with the total voter turnout and want to do > something about it for the next election... then making an effort to > identify if there is an imbalance in the voting would be worthwhile. > Did our European contributors vote in proportion to their cla numbers > compared to the North American contributors? If not.. then we know to > lean on Max and try to get those numbers up for the next election. He > should be fluent in European by now, so he shouldn't need any help > traveling the countryside gathering voters in his wake. That answers the geographic question you had. Sounds like a very sane reason and I'm also curious as to what the results of that would be. Why do you want to know about the percentage of Red Hat voters vs. community? Or, put another way, what difference does that distinction make? Should we get the same data for Dell and IBM (as they have separate CLAs like Red Hat)? IMHO, a voter's employer just doesn't matter. josh From smooge at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 17:21:50 2008 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 11:21:50 -0600 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> Message-ID: <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 11:12 AM, Josh Boyer wrote: > On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 08:40 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: >> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 8:23 AM, Josh Boyer wrote: >> > ?What purpose would getting the answers to those questions serve? >> >> If we are unhappy with the total voter turnout and want to do >> something about it for the next election... then making an effort to >> identify if there is an imbalance in the voting would be worthwhile. >> Did our European contributors vote in proportion to their cla numbers >> compared to the North American contributors? If not.. then we know to >> lean on Max and try to get those numbers up for the next election. He >> should be fluent in European by now, so he shouldn't need any help >> traveling the countryside gathering voters in his wake. > > That answers the geographic question you had. Sounds like a very sane > reason and I'm also curious as to what the results of that would be. > > Why do you want to know about the percentage of Red Hat voters vs. > community? > If the majority of people who voted are inside of RH and not out... then you have a potential bias you need to focus on the next election. Why didn't people outside of RH vote? Is the process working? Do people not feel franchised? > Or, put another way, what difference does that distinction make? Should > we get the same data for Dell and IBM (as they have separate CLAs like > Red Hat)? > > IMHO, a voter's employer just doesn't matter. > It does if people outside of RH feel they are not going to be recognized or represented and thus give up on the system. > josh > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board > -- Stephen J Smoogen. -- BSD/GNU/Linux How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice" From jamatos at fc.up.pt Tue Jun 24 17:29:33 2008 From: jamatos at fc.up.pt (=?utf-8?q?Jos=C3=A9_Matos?=) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 18:29:33 +0100 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> Message-ID: <200806241829.34560.jamatos@fc.up.pt> On Tuesday 24 June 2008 18:12:04 Josh Boyer wrote: > IMHO, a voter's employer just doesn't matter. I agree. If we only had a small percentage of voters related to the total number of potential voters then those statistics become even more irrelevant. > josh -- Jos? Ab?lio From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 17:26:58 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 09:26:58 -0800 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> Message-ID: <604aa7910806241026q71dbac70q681b5ff1e829bd23@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 9:12 AM, Josh Boyer wrote: > Why do you want to know about the percentage of Red Hat voters vs. > community? > > Or, put another way, what difference does that distinction make? Should > we get the same data for Dell and IBM (as they have separate CLAs like > Red Hat)? > > IMHO, a voter's employer just doesn't matter. You have stated an ideal, but its not the current reality. It shouldn't matter... but it does...deep down in people's brains the distinction matters. The fact is Mike's initial comment very much grounded in the distinction between inside Red Hat and outside. In fact we've made quite a big deal that we have more external contributors then red hat contributors. We continue to draw a distinction between these groups in our efforts to point out there's no distinction. With that in mind I want a picture of the breakdown between redhat and non-redhat voters so I can know if we have done an appropriate job communicating the importance of the board elections out into the external community. If there is a significant voting imbalance, we find it, then we take steps to make that identified imbalance go away next time by getting feedback from that segment of the community sooner rather than later. -jef From mspevack at redhat.com Tue Jun 24 17:51:10 2008 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 13:51:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Jun 2008, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > If we are unhappy with the total voter turnout and want to do > something about it for the next election... then making an effort to > identify if there is an imbalance in the voting would be worthwhile. > Did our European contributors vote in proportion to their cla numbers > compared to the North American contributors? If not.. then we know to > lean on Max and try to get those numbers up for the next election. > He should be fluent in European by now, so he shouldn't need any help > traveling the countryside gathering voters in his wake. You're just checking to see if I'm reading this thread, right? :) --Max From jwboyer at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 17:52:42 2008 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 13:52:42 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 11:21 -0600, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 11:12 AM, Josh Boyer wrote: > > On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 08:40 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > >> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 8:23 AM, Josh Boyer wrote: > >> > ?What purpose would getting the answers to those questions serve? > >> > >> If we are unhappy with the total voter turnout and want to do > >> something about it for the next election... then making an effort to > >> identify if there is an imbalance in the voting would be worthwhile. > >> Did our European contributors vote in proportion to their cla numbers > >> compared to the North American contributors? If not.. then we know to > >> lean on Max and try to get those numbers up for the next election. He > >> should be fluent in European by now, so he shouldn't need any help > >> traveling the countryside gathering voters in his wake. > > > > That answers the geographic question you had. Sounds like a very sane > > reason and I'm also curious as to what the results of that would be. > > > > Why do you want to know about the percentage of Red Hat voters vs. > > community? > > > > If the majority of people who voted are inside of RH and not out... > then you have a potential bias you need to focus on the next election. > Why didn't people outside of RH vote? Is the process working? Do > people not feel franchised? You aren't going to be able to answer those questions without asking people directly. And for those outside of Red Hat that _did_ vote, it's a pointless question. You can get the answers to those specific questions without finding out a percentage of Red Hat vs. non-Red Hat voters. Just ask people on blogs, f-a-b, fedora-devel, to explain why they didn't vote. > > Or, put another way, what difference does that distinction make? Should > > we get the same data for Dell and IBM (as they have separate CLAs like > > Red Hat)? > > > > IMHO, a voter's employer just doesn't matter. > > > > It does if people outside of RH feel they are not going to be > recognized or represented and thus give up on the system. Voting is one of the ways to have them feel recognized and represented. If they didn't bother to vote, they gave up that mechanism for representation voluntarily. josh From smooge at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 18:04:38 2008 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 12:04:38 -0600 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> Message-ID: <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 11:52 AM, Josh Boyer wrote: > On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 11:21 -0600, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: >> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 11:12 AM, Josh Boyer wrote: >> > On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 08:40 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: >> >> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 8:23 AM, Josh Boyer wrote: >> >> > ?What purpose would getting the answers to those questions serve? >> >> >> >> If we are unhappy with the total voter turnout and want to do >> >> something about it for the next election... then making an effort to >> >> identify if there is an imbalance in the voting would be worthwhile. >> >> Did our European contributors vote in proportion to their cla numbers >> >> compared to the North American contributors? If not.. then we know to >> >> lean on Max and try to get those numbers up for the next election. He >> >> should be fluent in European by now, so he shouldn't need any help >> >> traveling the countryside gathering voters in his wake. >> > >> > That answers the geographic question you had. Sounds like a very sane >> > reason and I'm also curious as to what the results of that would be. >> > >> > Why do you want to know about the percentage of Red Hat voters vs. >> > community? >> > >> >> If the majority of people who voted are inside of RH and not out... >> then you have a potential bias you need to focus on the next election. >> Why didn't people outside of RH vote? Is the process working? Do >> people not feel franchised? > > You aren't going to be able to answer those questions without asking > people directly. And for those outside of Red Hat that _did_ vote, it's > a pointless question. > > You can get the answers to those specific questions without finding out > a percentage of Red Hat vs. non-Red Hat voters. Just ask people on > blogs, f-a-b, fedora-devel, to explain why > they didn't vote. > >> > Or, put another way, what difference does that distinction make? Should >> > we get the same data for Dell and IBM (as they have separate CLAs like >> > Red Hat)? >> > >> > IMHO, a voter's employer just doesn't matter. >> > >> >> It does if people outside of RH feel they are not going to be >> recognized or represented and thus give up on the system. > > Voting is one of the ways to have them feel recognized and represented. > If they didn't bother to vote, they gave up that mechanism for > representation voluntarily. That argument is logically valid but humans are not logical. If people feel that voting is not going to make a difference they will have no incentive to continue with the process. Our brain's logical centers are easily over-ridden by our emotional and other centers.. a lot easier than we like to believe. It is the purposeful or non-purposeful manipulation of those over-rides that doing this check is to help keep in check. [Of course it could also lead to the fact that if you see that 90% of Dell employees voted but 10% of RH employees voted.. you should target those people more] Or go for mandatory voting with a 'Non-of-the-above' category if people aren't happy with any of the candidates. -- Stephen J Smoogen. -- BSD/GNU/Linux How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice" From jwboyer at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 18:06:41 2008 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:06:41 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <604aa7910806241026q71dbac70q681b5ff1e829bd23@mail.gmail.com> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806241026q71dbac70q681b5ff1e829bd23@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1214330801.14225.38.camel@weaponx> On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 09:26 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 9:12 AM, Josh Boyer wrote: > > Why do you want to know about the percentage of Red Hat voters vs. > > community? > > > > Or, put another way, what difference does that distinction make? Should > > we get the same data for Dell and IBM (as they have separate CLAs like > > Red Hat)? > > > > IMHO, a voter's employer just doesn't matter. > > You have stated an ideal, but its not the current reality. It > shouldn't matter... but it does...deep down in people's brains the > distinction matters. And I'd argue that you are only going to deepen that by continuing to distinguish Red Hat vs. non-Red Hat. > The fact is Mike's initial comment very much > grounded in the distinction between inside Red Hat and outside. His comment was directed at the fact that the newly appointed Board is mostly Red Hat. Nothing to do with who individual voter's employers are. > In fact we've made quite a big deal that we have more external > contributors then red hat contributors. We continue to draw a > distinction between these groups in our efforts to point out there's > no distinction. If you want to continue to highlight that distinction to point out there is no distinction, then have all the Red Hat contributors use a @fedoraproject.org email alias for everything. The ridiculousness of the situation wouldn't change either way. > With that in mind I want a picture of the breakdown > between redhat and non-redhat voters so I can know if we have done an > appropriate job communicating the importance of the board elections > out into the external community. Just assume we haven't done an appropriate job. With a 6% voter turnout, we have failed regardless. > If there is a significant voting imbalance, we find it, then we take steps > to make that identified imbalance go away next time by getting feedback > from that segment of the community sooner rather than later. Continuing to distinguish the two groups isn't helping anything. Everyone that contributes to Fedora is a community member, regardless of employer. Focus on everyone and you lose nothing. The reason your request for geography based demographics makes sense is that we actually have mechanisms in place to _help_ there, primarily through the Ambassador project. If you get your employer percentages, now what? You certainly aren't going to tell Red Hat "oh, there was an imbalance so you need to vote less/more." However, you _can_ tell the community as a _whole_ "Hey! The Board vote is super important because ..." That message is the one we need to get across to every contributor. The goal is 100% voter turnout from our eligible contributors. We don't care where they work. josh From jwboyer at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 18:15:53 2008 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:15:53 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 12:04 -0600, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > >> > IMHO, a voter's employer just doesn't matter. > >> > > >> > >> It does if people outside of RH feel they are not going to be > >> recognized or represented and thus give up on the system. > > > > Voting is one of the ways to have them feel recognized and represented. > > If they didn't bother to vote, they gave up that mechanism for > > representation voluntarily. > > > That argument is logically valid but humans are not logical. If people > feel that voting is not going to make a difference they will have no > incentive to continue with the process. Which is why you ask the community, at large, "Why didn't you vote?" Again, targeting employer specific groups is _pointless_. We only have real data for 3 employers, that data isn't even fully accurate, and you can't hardly target an employer demographic of "unknown" any better than you can the community as a whole. > Or go for mandatory voting with a 'Non-of-the-above' category if > people aren't happy with any of the candidates. We could do that if we had a timeout on ballots. But it really wouldn't do anything to help. We can't wait until everyone manually votes or the vote would never end. josh From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 18:22:00 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 10:22:00 -0800 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <1214330801.14225.38.camel@weaponx> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806241026q71dbac70q681b5ff1e829bd23@mail.gmail.com> <1214330801.14225.38.camel@weaponx> Message-ID: <604aa7910806241122w359216f9m9ae3157d022c1373@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 10:06 AM, Josh Boyer wrote: > If you get your employer percentages, now what? You certainly aren't > going to tell Red Hat "oh, there was an imbalance so you need to vote > less/more." However, you _can_ tell the community as a _whole_ "Hey! > The Board vote is super important because ..." That message is the one > we need to get across to every contributor. > > The goal is 100% voter turnout from our eligible contributors. We don't > care where they work. I concede your point. -jef From gdk at redhat.com Tue Jun 24 18:21:56 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:21:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <1214330801.14225.38.camel@weaponx> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806241026q71dbac70q681b5ff1e829bd23@mail.gmail.com> <1214330801.14225.38.camel@weaponx> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Jun 2008, Josh Boyer wrote: >> With that in mind I want a picture of the breakdown between redhat and >> non-redhat voters so I can know if we have done an appropriate job >> communicating the importance of the board elections out into the >> external community. > > Just assume we haven't done an appropriate job. With a 6% voter > turnout, we have failed regardless. Really? Why? Why is a 6% turnout necessarily a failure? IMHO, a properly functioning governance body *should* be so effective that no one cares much either way when it comes time to replace the membership. >From my perspective, low turnout means low dissatisfaction. All other indicators seem to point to continued success for Fedora and its contributors. If there were endemic problems to the Fedora project that people wanted to fix, well, then, there's a mechanism for the disaffected to create change. If no one feels compelled to use that mechanism, is it necessarily a bad thing? I myself almost didn't vote. Why? Because I liked the entire slate of candidates. In the end, I did vote, and I voted entirely for non-RH candidates on principle... but I firmly believe that everyone elected will do a great job, and I firmly believe that everyone not elected would also have done a great job. --g From jwboyer at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 18:34:56 2008 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:34:56 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806241026q71dbac70q681b5ff1e829bd23@mail.gmail.com> <1214330801.14225.38.camel@weaponx> Message-ID: <1214332496.14225.52.camel@weaponx> On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 14:21 -0400, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > On Tue, 24 Jun 2008, Josh Boyer wrote: > > >> With that in mind I want a picture of the breakdown between redhat and > >> non-redhat voters so I can know if we have done an appropriate job > >> communicating the importance of the board elections out into the > >> external community. > > > > Just assume we haven't done an appropriate job. With a 6% voter > > turnout, we have failed regardless. > > Really? Why? > > Why is a 6% turnout necessarily a failure? A bit of hyperbole on my part to illustrate a point. > IMHO, a properly functioning governance body *should* be so effective that > no one cares much either way when it comes time to replace the membership. > >From my perspective, low turnout means low dissatisfaction. All other > indicators seem to point to continued success for Fedora and its > contributors. Low turnout can either mean low dissatisfaction, or high apathy. > If there were endemic problems to the Fedora project that people wanted to > fix, well, then, there's a mechanism for the disaffected to create change. > If no one feels compelled to use that mechanism, is it necessarily a bad > thing? Is it an end-of-the-world-we-suck thing? No, probably not. But I do feel it's important to get as much of the voting body to vote as possible. > I myself almost didn't vote. Why? Because I liked the entire slate of > candidates. In the end, I did vote, and I voted entirely for non-RH > candidates on principle... but I firmly believe that everyone elected will > do a great job, and I firmly believe that everyone not elected would also > have done a great job. As do I. But that might not always be the case. josh From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 18:39:22 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 10:39:22 -0800 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806241026q71dbac70q681b5ff1e829bd23@mail.gmail.com> <1214330801.14225.38.camel@weaponx> Message-ID: <604aa7910806241139y5ee830b9jaed73f9012ff70d6@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 10:21 AM, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > I myself almost didn't vote. boo > Why? Because I liked the entire slate of > candidates. In the end, I did vote, and I voted entirely for non-RH > candidates on principle... but I firmly believe that everyone elected will > do a great job, and I firmly believe that everyone not elected would also > have done a great job. we need a "everyone's great" button. -jef From kwade at redhat.com Tue Jun 24 19:02:08 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 12:02:08 -0700 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806241026q71dbac70q681b5ff1e829bd23@mail.gmail.com> <1214330801.14225.38.camel@weaponx> Message-ID: <1214334128.3207.141.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 14:21 -0400, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > I myself almost didn't vote. Why? Because I liked the entire slate of > candidates. In the end, I did vote, and I voted entirely for non-RH > candidates on principle... but I firmly believe that everyone elected will > do a great job, and I firmly believe that everyone not elected would also > have done a great job. I agree here completely, I had essentially the same mental experience. I'm not sure if that is a good or bad thing? When you have a divided community (*cough*USA*cough*), it is easier to get fired up to vote for or against candidates. When many are satisfied ... well, does that mean the election is the result of only the dissatisfied getting fired up? I also think we should compare the % of votes to the # of people in pre-FAS2, especially pre-F9 release with the big join.fp.o campaign. We have somewhat failed in that campaign, in that we brought in a huge number of people who haven't a clue who to vote for, and most likely haven't even been exposed to the election. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Sr. Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From inode0 at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 19:17:06 2008 From: inode0 at gmail.com (inode0) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:17:06 -0500 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 1:15 PM, Josh Boyer wrote: > Which is why you ask the community, at large, "Why didn't you vote?" Here are two reasons. I find the whole self-nomination process distasteful. While I understand this is normal in some cultures it is very alien to other cultures. It seems obvious to me that there are competent and willing members who will not self-nominate and I don't understand why Fedora insists they be excluded from the process. I would prefer there be a way for community members to nominate quality people they know and those nominated in this way could accept or decline such a nomination. Others could nominate themselves if they wish to. Range voting is another aspect of the process I find discouraging in general. Suppose I know 3 of 10 candidates personally (at least I've had direct interactions with a small subset of the candidates). The other 7 candidates I perhaps know some by reputation and don't know some at all. By what rational process am I supposed to assign votes to the entire slate of candidates? Honestly I feel like what my vote ends up being is fairly random data and is as likely to distort the process to the detriment of some candidate I don't know and don't want to penalize as it is to elect the candidates I might prefer. So my choice to not vote was not made out of contentment with current leadership, not made out of apathy, not made out of being happy with the entire slate of candidates, but rather it was not made out of frustration with the voting process. John From jwboyer at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 19:33:10 2008 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 15:33:10 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> Message-ID: <1214335990.14225.55.camel@weaponx> On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 14:17 -0500, inode0 wrote: > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 1:15 PM, Josh Boyer wrote: > > Which is why you ask the community, at large, "Why didn't you vote?" > > Here are two reasons. > > I find the whole self-nomination process distasteful. While I > understand this is normal in some cultures it is very alien to other > cultures. It seems obvious to me that there are competent and willing > members who will not self-nominate and I don't understand why Fedora > insists they be excluded from the process. I would prefer there be a > way for community members to nominate quality people they know and > those nominated in this way could accept or decline such a nomination. > Others could nominate themselves if they wish to. > > Range voting is another aspect of the process I find discouraging in > general. Suppose I know 3 of 10 candidates personally (at least I've > had direct interactions with a small subset of the candidates). The > other 7 candidates I perhaps know some by reputation and don't know > some at all. By what rational process am I supposed to assign votes to > the entire slate of candidates? Honestly I feel like what my vote ends > up being is fairly random data and is as likely to distort the > process to the detriment of some candidate I don't know and don't want > to penalize as it is to elect the candidates I might prefer. > > So my choice to not vote was not made out of contentment with current > leadership, not made out of apathy, not made out of being happy with > the entire slate of candidates, but rather it was not made out of > frustration with the voting process. This is an excellent explanation. Hopefully we can take some of these into account, and more like yourself will come forward. josh From bugs.michael at gmx.net Tue Jun 24 19:39:42 2008 From: bugs.michael at gmx.net (Michael Schwendt) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 21:39:42 +0200 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> Message-ID: <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> On Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:15:53 -0400, Josh Boyer wrote: > On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 12:04 -0600, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > > >> > IMHO, a voter's employer just doesn't matter. > > >> > > > >> > > >> It does if people outside of RH feel they are not going to be > > >> recognized or represented and thus give up on the system. > > > > > > Voting is one of the ways to have them feel recognized and represented. > > > If they didn't bother to vote, they gave up that mechanism for > > > representation voluntarily. > > > > > > That argument is logically valid but humans are not logical. If people > > feel that voting is not going to make a difference they will have no > > incentive to continue with the process. > > Which is why you ask the community, at large, "Why didn't you vote?" I almost decided not to vote this time, because in the list of eight nominees I didn't see any real community representatives. I was and I still am under the impression that for at least half of the nominees the election would become a popularity contest (as in "I know him from various places" not limited to IRC, blogs, social networking sites) -- in other words a fun event, a virtual pad on the back with only a minority of the CLA signers participating in the election, anyway. The Fedora Project has grown out of proportions. Almost all essential communication channels are flooded, including the Wiki, which still feels like a maze, or the planet, where people post English headlines with non-English message bodies. It's hard to impossible to stay informed about the various sub projects and special interest groups. Vital communication is moved to IRC. I spent quite some time on the following Wiki page, https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/Elections/Nominations reading the "Goals" and "Future Plans" again and again, many of which are either weak or unconvincing. Especially if you cannot map a person's name to political activity on relevant mailing-lists. It's like "okay, I've seen that name before, but I don't remember any valuable political contributions that sounded promising and would justify voting for that person [again]". Is the person competent? How do I know if I've not seen any activity before? Further, Red Hat fills several board seats anyway. Fedora is Red Hat's baby. Red Hat still has to prove how serious they take the Fedora community. I thought about the previous board members. Did they perform well? Where are the testing instruments to decide whether a particular member performed well? As a voter, what can I do to vote _against_ somebody? Other than to give zero points and, from the few nominees, vote for somebody else who will then disappoint me? In the end I voted, but used only a small fraction of my voting points. A bit like participation and boycott at the same time. From smooge at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 19:41:15 2008 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 13:41:15 -0600 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> Message-ID: <80d7e4090806241241u59cedafav1ed2ccfc9bef50f9@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 1:17 PM, inode0 wrote: > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 1:15 PM, Josh Boyer wrote: >> Which is why you ask the community, at large, "Why didn't you vote?" > > Here are two reasons. > > I find the whole self-nomination process distasteful. While I > understand this is normal in some cultures it is very alien to other > cultures. It seems obvious to me that there are competent and willing > members who will not self-nominate and I don't understand why Fedora > insists they be excluded from the process. I would prefer there be a > way for community members to nominate quality people they know and > those nominated in this way could accept or decline such a nomination. > Others could nominate themselves if they wish to. > I can agree with this also. Where I was raised, a person who nominated themselves was the worst person to run something. > Range voting is another aspect of the process I find discouraging in > general. Suppose I know 3 of 10 candidates personally (at least I've > had direct interactions with a small subset of the candidates). The > other 7 candidates I perhaps know some by reputation and don't know > some at all. By what rational process am I supposed to assign votes to > the entire slate of candidates? Honestly I feel like what my vote ends > up being is fairly random data and is as likely to distort the > process to the detriment of some candidate I don't know and don't want > to penalize as it is to elect the candidates I might prefer. > I can agree with that also. Yes I have read the logical explanation, and my math friends say that it is valid.. but it just doesn't feel right. I would prefer a simple vote for 8 (or none of the above) in the first round, and 4 (or none of the above) in the second. Probably a lot less fair, but easier for my poor socially impaired brain to deal with. > So my choice to not vote was not made out of contentment with current > leadership, not made out of apathy, not made out of being happy with > the entire slate of candidates, but rather it was not made out of > frustration with the voting process. > > John > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board > -- Stephen J Smoogen. -- BSD/GNU/Linux How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice" From jwboyer at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 19:50:24 2008 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 15:50:24 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> Message-ID: <1214337024.14225.58.camel@weaponx> On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 21:39 +0200, Michael Schwendt wrote: > On Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:15:53 -0400, Josh Boyer wrote: > > > On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 12:04 -0600, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > > > >> > IMHO, a voter's employer just doesn't matter. > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> It does if people outside of RH feel they are not going to be > > > >> recognized or represented and thus give up on the system. > > > > > > > > Voting is one of the ways to have them feel recognized and represented. > > > > If they didn't bother to vote, they gave up that mechanism for > > > > representation voluntarily. > > > > > > > > > That argument is logically valid but humans are not logical. If people > > > feel that voting is not going to make a difference they will have no > > > incentive to continue with the process. > > > > Which is why you ask the community, at large, "Why didn't you vote?" > > I almost decided not to vote this time, because in the list of eight > nominees I didn't see any real community representatives. I was and I > still am under the impression that for at least half of the nominees the > election would become a popularity contest (as in "I know him from various > places" not limited to IRC, blogs, social networking sites) -- in other > words a fun event, a virtual pad on the back with only a minority of the > CLA signers participating in the election, anyway. The Fedora Project has > grown out of proportions. Almost all essential communication channels are > flooded, including the Wiki, which still feels like a maze, or the planet, > where people post English headlines with non-English message bodies. It's > hard to impossible to stay informed about the various sub projects and > special interest groups. Vital communication is moved to IRC. I spent > quite some time on the following Wiki page, > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/Elections/Nominations > reading the "Goals" and "Future Plans" again and again, many of which are > either weak or unconvincing. Especially if you cannot map a person's name > to political activity on relevant mailing-lists. It's like "okay, I've > seen that name before, but I don't remember any valuable political > contributions that sounded promising and would justify voting for that > person [again]". Is the person competent? How do I know if I've not seen > any activity before? I distill that down to: "Candidates need to provide more concrete examples of their past work" and "Candidates should already be doing (or trying to do) what they are talking about in their platform statements." Both I think are very good points. > Further, Red Hat fills several board seats > anyway. Fedora is Red Hat's baby. Red Hat still has to prove how serious > they take the Fedora community. I thought about the previous board > members. Did they perform well? Where are the testing instruments to > decide whether a particular member performed well? As a voter, what can I > do to vote _against_ somebody? Other than to give zero points and, from > the few nominees, vote for somebody else who will then disappoint me? I'm not going to bite on the Red Hat topic. > In the end I voted, but used only a small fraction of my voting points. > A bit like participation and boycott at the same time. At least you voted! The newly elected members and candidates for the next election would do well to listen to what you've said here and try to correct it. josh From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 19:55:52 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 11:55:52 -0800 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> Message-ID: <604aa7910806241255q76be7f28kc8e268b5f89654b0@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 11:17 AM, inode0 wrote: > I find the whole self-nomination process distasteful. While I > understand this is normal in some cultures it is very alien to other > cultures. It seems obvious to me that there are competent and willing > members who will not self-nominate and I don't understand why Fedora > insists they be excluded from the process. I would prefer there be a > way for community members to nominate quality people they know and > those nominated in this way could accept or decline such a nomination. > Others could nominate themselves if they wish to. Did you have someone specific in mind that didn't self-nominate? Did you ask them to run? There is absolutely nothing stopping you or anyone else asking or daring someone, in public or in private, to run. I honestly do not see the point of formal process of nominating other people, with a formal process of accepting or declining that sort of nomination. All that does is slow the process down even further. If you had someone in mind that you wanted to see run next time... just make a big fuss about that person. Tell all of us who it is and why you want them to run via the planet or this list. There is no reason to formalize it. That person will either add their name and info to the candidate list or will tell you to stop embarrassing them. There is absolutely nothing stopping anyone from encouraging someone else to step forward for elections, but we aren't going to demand that candidates be found that way. Next time, if you want certain people to run, then get out in front and make a public suggestion. If nominating someone else leads to stronger candidates, and stronger support for those candidates... prove it by making it happen. Next time publicly suggest someone and convince them to run for the election. And once they are in the candidate pool, publicly endorse them. There is absolutely nothing stopping you or anyone else from throwing a name in the ring for consideration. If they accept, then its no different than the a self-nominating process we have now. All that person has to do is add their name and bio to the list. There's absolutely no reason that such biographical information could not include an endorsement section. I would like to point out that the candidates which did get public endorsements from other community members on the planet were the ones who were not elected. > > Range voting is another aspect of the process I find discouraging in > general. Suppose I know 3 of 10 candidates personally (at least I've > had direct interactions with a small subset of the candidates). The > other 7 candidates I perhaps know some by reputation and don't know > some at all. By what rational process am I supposed to assign votes to > the entire slate of candidates? Humans are irrational, and thus any voting scheme is going to have personal bias. If you want to just vote for 3 people, and then vote 0 for all the rest... that's your decision and would be equivalent to more common forms of ballet voting when multiple seats are open in a body. The votes still count. > Honestly I feel like what my vote ends > up being is fairly random data and is as likely to distort the > process to the detriment of some candidate I don't know and don't want > to penalize as it is to elect the candidates I might prefer. Every time you vote in a way that indicates a preference, you penalize a candidate. More traditional voting schemes are all about penalizing as many candidates as possible. Range voting gives you the ability to penalize with far greater precision, or with no precision at all. If you choose to vote for everyone equally, then you are making a statement that you prefer all candidates equal while still voting. That says something different than not voting at all. > > So my choice to not vote was not made out of contentment with current > leadership, not made out of apathy, not made out of being happy with > the entire slate of candidates, but rather it was not made out of > frustration with the voting process. I do not understand the frustration. Range voting gives individual voters more flexibility than traditional one vote - one seat voting. Would you really prefer that you and everyone else got place one vote for each open seat? You had the ability to vote that way if you wanted to inside the range voting setup. Would you force the same preference on how to rank candidates on everyone else? -jef From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 19:59:40 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 11:59:40 -0800 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> Message-ID: <604aa7910806241259v26484d4em863dabbd2f23e536@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 11:39 AM, Michael Schwendt wrote: > reading the "Goals" and "Future Plans" again and again, many of which are > either weak or unconvincing. Especially if you cannot map a person's name > to political activity on relevant mailing-lists. It's like "okay, I've > seen that name before, but I don't remember any valuable political > contributions that sounded promising and would justify voting for that > person [again]". Is the person competent? How do I know if I've not seen > any activity before? Just to be clear. Are you saying that my political activity has gone unnoticed? Would an organized debate (and I use that term as loosely as possible) between candidates help you decide how to spend your votes? -jef From mspevack at redhat.com Tue Jun 24 20:02:04 2008 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 16:02:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Jun 2008, Michael Schwendt wrote: > Further, Red Hat fills several board seats anyway. Fedora is Red Hat's > baby. Red Hat still has to prove how serious they take the Fedora > community. I don't want to hijack the thread, but if you compare the investments made into Fedora and the commitment to the community of Red Hat in 2005 and Red Hat in 2008, what questions do you have about Red Hat being serious about Fedora? Our daily operational budget has been multiplied about five or six fold (community architecture + fedora infrastructure budget) compared to when I started as the FPL. Furthermore, the number of full-time employees working directly on Fedora has increased significantly over the past 2-3 years, with basically every single hire coming from the Fedora community, and expanded roles being created from within Red Hat (like Spot's new job, for example, as Fedora Engineering Manager). Maybe it doesn't look like it from the outside, but Fedora has gotten a huge amount of investment, comparatively, over the past few years, and that investment continues. What else would you like to see from Red Hat to prove that it takes Fedora and community seriously? I'm not trolling, I really want to konw, so that I can work on making it happen. --Max From mspevack at redhat.com Tue Jun 24 20:03:58 2008 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 16:03:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <80d7e4090806241241u59cedafav1ed2ccfc9bef50f9@mail.gmail.com> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241241u59cedafav1ed2ccfc9bef50f9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Jun 2008, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > I can agree with this also. Where I was raised, a person who nominated > themselves was the worst person to run something. I don't suppose there's any reason why people couldn't nominate someone. Just add them to the Nominations page and send an email to f-a-b saying "I just nominated John Doe for the Fedora Board. If he doesn't want the nomination, he should remove himself. He he does want it, he should add to the nomination page as he sees fit." --Max From smooge at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 20:14:12 2008 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 14:14:12 -0600 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> Message-ID: <80d7e4090806241314m1d27e59ax41deba39d2919dbc@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 2:02 PM, Max Spevack wrote: > On Tue, 24 Jun 2008, Michael Schwendt wrote: > >> Further, Red Hat fills several board seats anyway. Fedora is Red Hat's >> baby. Red Hat still has to prove how serious they take the Fedora community. > > I don't want to hijack the thread, but if you compare the investments made > into Fedora and the commitment to the community of Red Hat in 2005 and Red > Hat in 2008, what questions do you have about Red Hat being serious about > Fedora? > > Our daily operational budget has been multiplied about five or six fold > (community architecture + fedora infrastructure budget) compared to when I > started as the FPL. > > Furthermore, the number of full-time employees working directly on Fedora > has increased significantly over the past 2-3 years, with basically every > single hire coming from the Fedora community, and expanded roles being > created from within Red Hat (like Spot's new job, for example, as Fedora > Engineering Manager). > > Maybe it doesn't look like it from the outside, but Fedora has gotten a huge > amount of investment, comparatively, over the past few years, and that > investment continues. > > What else would you like to see from Red Hat to prove that it takes Fedora > and community seriously? I'm not trolling, I really want to konw, so that I > can work on making it happen. > Personally, I don't think Red Hat needs to publish anything but I own stock in the company so am probably biased. I would like to support Open Book Management.. even though Fedora is not a separate company/organization/etc treat it as such. Publish on the quarter how much was spent on salaries, hosting, equiptment, health care, etc etc. Treat everyone who has signed the CLA as stockholders/employees for this separate organization. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-book_management http://www.inc.com/guides/hr/23178.html -- Stephen J Smoogen. -- BSD/GNU/Linux How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice" From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 20:16:16 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 12:16:16 -0800 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241241u59cedafav1ed2ccfc9bef50f9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910806241316r105c40fcydaef384abd9deb79@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 12:03 PM, Max Spevack wrote: > I don't suppose there's any reason why people couldn't nominate someone. > Just add them to the Nominations page and send an email to f-a-b saying "I > just nominated John Doe for the Fedora Board. If he doesn't want the > nomination, he should remove himself. He he does want it, he should add to > the nomination page as he sees fit." NO.. it should require absolutely no effort at all for someone to decline. If you don't want to be on the ballot you should not have to edit the wiki page and remove yourself or else we are going to run the risk of having people in the candidate list who have no god damn idea what is going on. Being a part the slate of candidates must require an affirmed acceptance from the candidate. The candidate must be ultimately accountable for what is said on the nomination page. I would much rather see personal endorsements from other community members added to a profile of each candidate. Isn't that what nominating someone else really is? A personal endorsement of that person. So we add an endorsement section so individuals can endorse candidates as they see fit and other users can use those personal endorsements to rank the candidates value. -jef From inode0 at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 20:34:43 2008 From: inode0 at gmail.com (inode0) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 15:34:43 -0500 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <604aa7910806241255q76be7f28kc8e268b5f89654b0@mail.gmail.com> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806241255q76be7f28kc8e268b5f89654b0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 2:55 PM, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 11:17 AM, inode0 wrote: >> I find the whole self-nomination process distasteful. While I >> understand this is normal in some cultures it is very alien to other >> cultures. It seems obvious to me that there are competent and willing >> members who will not self-nominate and I don't understand why Fedora >> insists they be excluded from the process. I would prefer there be a >> way for community members to nominate quality people they know and >> those nominated in this way could accept or decline such a nomination. >> Others could nominate themselves if they wish to. > > Did you have someone specific in mind that didn't self-nominate? Did > you ask them to run? I didn't need to as he nominated himself. Whether I did or didn't doesn't affect the point I am making that there are high quality people who will *not* self-nominate. There are people who simply find doing so repugnant. > There is absolutely nothing stopping you or anyone else asking or > daring someone, in public or in private, to run. I honestly do not > see the point of formal process of nominating other people, with a > formal process of accepting or declining that sort of nomination. All > that does is slow the process down even further. If you had someone > in mind that you wanted to see run next time... just make a big fuss > about that person. Tell all of us who it is and why you want them to > run via the planet or this list. There is no reason to formalize it. > That person will either add their name and info to the candidate list > or will tell you to stop embarrassing them. There is absolutely > nothing stopping anyone from encouraging someone else to step forward > for elections, but we aren't going to demand that candidates be found > that way. > > Next time, if you want certain people to run, then get out in front > and make a public suggestion. If nominating someone else leads to > stronger candidates, and stronger support for those candidates... > prove it by making it happen. Next time publicly suggest someone and > convince them to run for the election. And once they are in the > candidate pool, publicly endorse them. There is absolutely nothing > stopping you or anyone else from throwing a name in the ring for > consideration. If they accept, then its no different than the a > self-nominating process we have now. All that person has to do is add > their name and bio to the list. There's absolutely no reason that such > biographical information could not include an endorsement section. > > I would like to point out that the candidates which did get public > endorsements from other community members on the planet were the ones > who were not elected. And the point of this is what exactly? One of the benefits of a more open nomination process is that it is rewarding to be nominated by someone else for a position of leadership. It tells you that your work is appreciated and that someone thinks enough of you and your abilities to recommend you for a role you may never have considered. Whether you run or not, whether you win or lose in the end isn't the only result that counts. The public acknowledgment of your contribution also counts. >> Range voting is another aspect of the process I find discouraging in >> general. Suppose I know 3 of 10 candidates personally (at least I've >> had direct interactions with a small subset of the candidates). The >> other 7 candidates I perhaps know some by reputation and don't know >> some at all. By what rational process am I supposed to assign votes to >> the entire slate of candidates? > > Humans are irrational, and thus any voting scheme is going to have > personal bias. If you want to just vote for 3 people, and then vote 0 > for all the rest... that's your decision and would be equivalent to > more common forms of ballet voting when multiple seats are open in a > body. The votes still count. Sure I can vote that way but it is *not* equivalent to more common forms unless everyone votes that same way. Whether I give someone I know little or nothing about 0 votes while someone else irrationally gives them 5 votes makes a difference in the result. I'm penalizing candidates more than others are and there is no rational basis for doing so. >> Honestly I feel like what my vote ends >> up being is fairly random data and is as likely to distort the >> process to the detriment of some candidate I don't know and don't want >> to penalize as it is to elect the candidates I might prefer. > > Every time you vote in a way that indicates a preference, you penalize > a candidate. More traditional voting schemes are all about penalizing > as many candidates as possible. Range voting gives you the ability to > penalize with far greater precision, or with no precision at all. > If you choose to vote for everyone equally, then you are making a > statement that you prefer all candidates equal while still voting. > That says something different than not voting at all. There is no point in penalizing with far greater precision when you mostly don't know the people you are penalizing. Range voting may well be a wonderful intellectual exercise but if is too onerous for enough people to feel they are casting fair and reasoned votes then it isn't one that will be successful in the end. >> So my choice to not vote was not made out of contentment with current >> leadership, not made out of apathy, not made out of being happy with >> the entire slate of candidates, but rather it was not made out of >> frustration with the voting process. > > I do not understand the frustration. Range voting gives individual > voters more flexibility than traditional one vote - one seat voting. > Would you really prefer that you and everyone else got place one vote > for each open seat? You had the ability to vote that way if you > wanted to inside the range voting setup. Would you force the same > preference on how to rank candidates on everyone else? Had the election been one vote per open seat I would have voted as there were enough candidates that I know and have confidence in to have cast positive votes for them. No, I would not force anyone else to do anything. If the fedora community prefers range voting the fedora community can continue using it. I was asked why I didn't vote and I'm just trying to let the board know why. John From inode0 at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 20:53:42 2008 From: inode0 at gmail.com (inode0) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 15:53:42 -0500 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <604aa7910806241316r105c40fcydaef384abd9deb79@mail.gmail.com> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241241u59cedafav1ed2ccfc9bef50f9@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910806241316r105c40fcydaef384abd9deb79@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 3:16 PM, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 12:03 PM, Max Spevack wrote: >> I don't suppose there's any reason why people couldn't nominate someone. >> Just add them to the Nominations page and send an email to f-a-b saying "I >> just nominated John Doe for the Fedora Board. If he doesn't want the >> nomination, he should remove himself. He he does want it, he should add to >> the nomination page as he sees fit." > > > NO.. it should require absolutely no effort at all for someone to > decline. If you don't want to be on the ballot you should not have to > edit the wiki page and remove yourself or else we are going to run the > risk of having people in the candidate list who have no god damn idea > what is going on. Being a part the slate of candidates must require an > affirmed acceptance from the candidate. The candidate must be > ultimately accountable for what is said on the nomination page. I agree that a person nominated should not have to do anything. What about a community nominations page where community members could nominate people they would like to see on the ballot and give reasons why. It could have two checkboxes for "I accept" and "I decline" for the nominated person to use to acknowledge the nomination. Clicking "I accept" would lead to the now candidate filling out what candidates fill out in the self-nomination process. Doing nothing or checking the "I decline" box leaves the nominated member off the ballot. John From fedora at leemhuis.info Tue Jun 24 20:54:29 2008 From: fedora at leemhuis.info (Thorsten Leemhuis) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 22:54:29 +0200 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> Message-ID: <48615F05.8030608@leemhuis.info> On 24.06.2008 21:39, Michael Schwendt wrote: > >> Which is why you ask the community, at large, "Why didn't you vote?" Some of the reasons (IMHO of course): - the base of active contributes that really want to be involved is a lot smaller then the total numbers - those permitted to vote didn't get a direct information (e.g. a direct mail straight to their inbox (or was there one and I forgot about it/missed it?)); only those that follow planet or some of the mailing lists were aware that a election was in progress (which might be a good thing as I#d consider only those people as active in Fedora; but that's a different topic). > I almost decided not to vote this time, because in the list of eight > nominees I didn't see any real community representatives. [lot's of good point to most of whom I partly or totally agree to snipped, as they are already being discussed] > In the end I voted, but used only a small fraction of my voting points. > A bit like participation and boycott at the same time. I actually in the beginning also didn't know if it was worth voting or not. In the end I gave most points to the spare time contributes and gave nearly none to the others. It's not that I think the Red Hat people do a worse job than the others; in fact I suppose it's even the opposite in some of the cases. But I actually feared a bit that the result of the election might look like the outcome we have now. To explain that a bit more: those elected are much present in the Fedora Project (lists, development work, ...). If you are a Fedora contributor then chances are high that you had to deal with them or at least heard of them a few times. So when it comes to an election like this people just vote for those nominees they know of/were in contact with. That's how humans afaics vote. But three of those four elected are Red Hat employees for whom working and contributing to Fedora is part of their job (afaik; but is it the case for Seth? not completely sure, sorry. But he is well known in Fedora though Yum, so that might be and important factor); the fourth is mainly working in another area of Red Hat. The only spare time contributor that was elected was *quite active* on the lists/planet/board in the past months and with his special way/humor easy to remember for people -- those are the things that likely helped a lot in this election afaics. So one might say it were the right people that got elected -- the nominees that at least from a quick look were the most active one the recent months in Fedora. But on the other hand the those three Red Hat employees that got elected had a big advantage: they did a lot (not all!) of their Fedora work during their work time. That's not right or wrong, it's just the way it is afaics. Which brings me to the point: Maybe doing public elections to form the Board is not the right thing to do as Red Hat employees that work on Fedora have a big advantage accidentally. Maybe other way are better then a election. Or we need something like the gnome board style: limit the maximum numbers of people from one company (whatever company that is). Just my 2 cent. Cu knurd From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 21:02:31 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 13:02:31 -0800 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241241u59cedafav1ed2ccfc9bef50f9@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910806241316r105c40fcydaef384abd9deb79@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910806241402q21f2172cpdb1c88ab06f5e383@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 12:53 PM, inode0 wrote: > I agree that a person nominated should not have to do anything. What > about a community nominations page where community members could > nominate people they would like to see on the ballot and give reasons > why. It could have two checkboxes for "I accept" and "I decline" for > the nominated person to use to acknowledge the nomination. Clicking "I > accept" would lead to the now candidate filling out what candidates > fill out in the self-nomination process. Doing nothing or checking the > "I decline" box leaves the nominated member off the ballot. I'm fine with that... and the stated reasons for offering the nomination translate to a set of personal endorsements for those would be candidates. -jef From mspevack at redhat.com Tue Jun 24 21:02:52 2008 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 17:02:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <48615F05.8030608@leemhuis.info> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <48615F05.8030608@leemhuis.info> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Jun 2008, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > But three of those four elected are Red Hat employees for whom working > and contributing to Fedora is part of their job (afaik; but is it the > case for Seth? not completely sure, sorry. Spot, Jesse, and Seth are all paid to spend 100% of their working time on tasks directly related to Fedora, or upstream tools (packages, build system, yum) that Fedora uses. --Max From fedora at leemhuis.info Tue Jun 24 21:12:52 2008 From: fedora at leemhuis.info (Thorsten Leemhuis) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 23:12:52 +0200 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <48615F05.8030608@leemhuis.info> Message-ID: <48616354.4010306@leemhuis.info> On 24.06.2008 23:02, Max Spevack wrote: > On Tue, 24 Jun 2008, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > >> But three of those four elected are Red Hat employees for whom working >> and contributing to Fedora is part of their job (afaik; but is it the >> case for Seth? not completely sure, sorry. > Spot, Jesse, and Seth are all paid to spend 100% of their working time > on tasks directly related to Fedora, or upstream tools (packages, build > system, yum) that Fedora uses. Thx Max for the clarification. And just a clarification: there is nothing wrong with being a Red Hat employee working on Fedora being elected to the board. It's just that these three guys imho without purpose had a huge advantage in the election due to their work. CU knurd P.S.: Earlier in this thread this could be read: >> Is there any sort of criteria they use to pick the last seat? I'm just >> curious. > The last seat is picked with the goal of balancing the background of the > other seats on the Board. So we get a woman on board? /me hides From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 21:15:37 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 13:15:37 -0800 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <48615F05.8030608@leemhuis.info> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <48615F05.8030608@leemhuis.info> Message-ID: <604aa7910806241415t7b2a60b0x5285f45a66108eff@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 12:54 PM, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > But on the other hand the those three Red Hat employees that got elected had > a big advantage: they did a lot (not all!) of their Fedora work during their > work time. That's not right or wrong, it's just the way it is afaics. > > Which brings me to the point: Maybe doing public elections to form the Board > is not the right thing to do as Red Hat employees that work on Fedora have a > big advantage accidentally. Maybe other way are better then a election. Or > we need something like the gnome board style: limit the maximum numbers of > people from one company (whatever company that is). I am sympathetic to the argument that deep involvement correlates with exposure and better recognition. However, I would also suggest that its a damn good thing to have people paid to deal with Fedora on the board. My volunteer status makes me some what impotent when it comes to driving issues forward consistently considering the tenuous nature of my time commitment. The answer isn't necessarily limiting the involvement of paid time people in the election process. The answer maybe finding more ways to get people paid for working inside of the Fedora project.. above and beyond what Red Hat can support directly. Or the answer maybe doing a better job of giving new candidates a platform to speak with regard to topical concerns or new ideas. If we rely too heavily on a body of previous contribution, we are going to be short changing people with new ideas. -jef From jkeating at redhat.com Tue Jun 24 21:16:41 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 17:16:41 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <48615F05.8030608@leemhuis.info> Message-ID: <1214342201.11688.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 17:02 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: > > Spot, Jesse, and Seth are all paid to spend 100% of their working time > on tasks directly related to Fedora, or upstream tools (packages, build > system, yum) that Fedora uses. That's nearly true with me. I'm actually in the Release Configuration Management group within Red Hat, and while my stated duties are Fedora, I also at times work on non-Fedora things where I and my manager see fit to spend my time. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From bugs.michael at gmx.net Tue Jun 24 21:18:54 2008 From: bugs.michael at gmx.net (Michael Schwendt) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 23:18:54 +0200 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> Message-ID: <20080624231854.c0bc0551.bugs.michael@gmx.net> On Tue, 24 Jun 2008 16:02:04 -0400 (EDT), Max Spevack wrote: > What else would you like to see from Red Hat to prove that it takes > Fedora and community seriously? I'm not trolling, I really want to > konw, so that I can work on making it happen. What I mean is that almost all Fedora related decisions come out of Red Hat anyway. The few +1 from community seats during FPB meetings don't matter, do they? They are just noise. It gets more interesting if a community rep drives something forward. Or if there is disagreement between Red Hat's FPB members and community reps or lobbyists. If necessary, do the people on the community seats have the guts to represent the community's interests? If they don't, what about accountability? The financial investments you refer to only add to the fact of how big Red Hat's stake in the Fedora Project is. No budget increase, no growth. No people working on Fedora full-time, no growth. The project is still young and must grow. Hence Red Hat is forced to find a balance between pursuing its own business goals with Fedora and opening up further to increase the community's investment in Fedora, which is still poor. As you can see whenever a long-time contributor or user leaves disgruntled. The decision to leave is too easy. Voting community reps is a nice gimmick, but doesn't result in power. It's still too early to say we have a large pool of community reps to draw from for FPB seats. A growing number of contributors, yes, but only very few with interest in [project] politics, project management, and the additional time requirements. From stickster at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 21:37:09 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 17:37:09 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <48616354.4010306@leemhuis.info> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <48615F05.8030608@leemhuis.info> <48616354.4010306@leemhuis.info> Message-ID: <1214343429.3825.226.camel@victoria> On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 23:12 +0200, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > On 24.06.2008 23:02, Max Spevack wrote: > > On Tue, 24 Jun 2008, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > > > >> But three of those four elected are Red Hat employees for whom working > >> and contributing to Fedora is part of their job (afaik; but is it the > >> case for Seth? not completely sure, sorry. > > Spot, Jesse, and Seth are all paid to spend 100% of their working time > > on tasks directly related to Fedora, or upstream tools (packages, build > > system, yum) that Fedora uses. > > Thx Max for the clarification. > > And just a clarification: there is nothing wrong with being a Red Hat > employee working on Fedora being elected to the board. It's just that > these three guys imho without purpose had a huge advantage in the > election due to their work. > > CU > knurd > > > P.S.: Earlier in this thread this could be read: > > >> Is there any sort of criteria they use to pick the last seat? I'm just > >> curious. > > The last seat is picked with the goal of balancing the background of the > > other seats on the Board. > > So we get a woman on board? > > /me hides > > What if a woman on the short list for this spot was a Red Hat employee? -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 21:54:50 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 13:54:50 -0800 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <20080624231854.c0bc0551.bugs.michael@gmx.net> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <20080624231854.c0bc0551.bugs.michael@gmx.net> Message-ID: <604aa7910806241454vad5c729i683bf190db33ef42@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 1:18 PM, Michael Schwendt wrote: > What I mean is that almost all Fedora related decisions come out of Red > Hat anyway. The few +1 from community seats during FPB meetings don't > matter, do they? They are just noise. It gets more interesting if a > community rep drives something forward. Uhm formation of the Spin SIG? I'm pretty sure I drove that forward from the Board side. I think I had to strangle some kittens to do it. I'm still watching how that is going. If there is a serious problem with how that is moving forward I have no problem wading in and throwing my weight around. > Or if there is disagreement > between Red Hat's FPB members and community reps or lobbyists. If > necessary, do the people on the community seats have the guts to represent > the community's interests? If they don't, what about accountability? >From my point of view, its more like the rest of the Board usually doesn't have the guts to tell me to shut up. I do hear their eyes rolling over the phone however. But with Jesse on board, that's probably gonna be different now. I'm very confident that Jesse is going to very accurately indicate when I am 'full of it'. Which is quite often in reality. I guess its a matter of opinion as to whether my opinions can be considered to represent community interest or not. If there is a 'community' issue over which my stance is unknown to you... i think I've proven I'm not overly shy in voicing my opinion on something when asked. So ask. -jef From inode0 at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 22:11:58 2008 From: inode0 at gmail.com (inode0) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 17:11:58 -0500 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <1214343429.3825.226.camel@victoria> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <48615F05.8030608@leemhuis.info> <48616354.4010306@leemhuis.info> <1214343429.3825.226.camel@victoria> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 4:37 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > What if a woman on the short list for this spot was a Red Hat employee? I once gave Red Hat some unsolicited advice and that was that they should hire every M?ir?n Duffy they can find. I could not have been more sincere about that. Of course I have no idea who you might be referring to but if she is anything like M?ir?n the community would be well represented by her. As further evidence of the Fedora election process befuddling my poor brain I think I just nominated someone for a Red Hat appointed seat. John From poelstra at redhat.com Tue Jun 24 22:42:38 2008 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 15:42:38 -0700 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <20080624231854.c0bc0551.bugs.michael@gmx.net> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <20080624231854.c0bc0551.bugs.michael@gmx.net> Message-ID: <4861785E.8080508@redhat.com> Michael Schwendt said the following on 06/24/2008 02:18 PM Pacific Time: > On Tue, 24 Jun 2008 16:02:04 -0400 (EDT), Max Spevack wrote: > >> What else would you like to see from Red Hat to prove that it takes >> Fedora and community seriously? I'm not trolling, I really want to >> konw, so that I can work on making it happen. > > What I mean is that almost all Fedora related decisions come out of Red > Hat anyway. The few +1 from community seats during FPB meetings don't Can you provide some examples where this happened in the last six months? That would help me understand more where you are coming from. > matter, do they? They are just noise. It gets more interesting if a > community rep drives something forward. Or if there is disagreement > between Red Hat's FPB members and community reps or lobbyists. If > necessary, do the people on the community seats have the guts to represent > the community's interests? If they don't, what about accountability? I think it would really help your case to put forth some specific examples of when this has or has not happened recently. Maybe I'm not following what you're saying, but it sounds like you are suggesting that in all likelihood all non-Red Hat members get steamrollered or bullied by the Red Hat members? Honestly I don't recall ever seeing the leadership in Fedora (FESCo or Board) vote purely along the lines of who employs them... if anything there is more disagreement amongst the Red Hat folks themselves :-) John From stickster at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 00:15:30 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 00:15:30 +0000 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <4861785E.8080508@redhat.com> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <20080624231854.c0bc0551.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <4861785E.8080508@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1214352930.3825.263.camel@victoria> On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 15:42 -0700, John Poelstra wrote: > Michael Schwendt said the following on 06/24/2008 02:18 PM Pacific Time: > > On Tue, 24 Jun 2008 16:02:04 -0400 (EDT), Max Spevack wrote: > > > >> What else would you like to see from Red Hat to prove that it takes > >> Fedora and community seriously? I'm not trolling, I really want to > >> konw, so that I can work on making it happen. > > > > What I mean is that almost all Fedora related decisions come out of Red > > Hat anyway. The few +1 from community seats during FPB meetings don't > > Can you provide some examples where this happened in the last six > months? That would help me understand more where you are coming from. > > > matter, do they? They are just noise. It gets more interesting if a > > community rep drives something forward. Or if there is disagreement > > between Red Hat's FPB members and community reps or lobbyists. If > > necessary, do the people on the community seats have the guts to represent > > the community's interests? If they don't, what about accountability? > > I think it would really help your case to put forth some specific > examples of when this has or has not happened recently. > > Maybe I'm not following what you're saying, but it sounds like you are > suggesting that in all likelihood all non-Red Hat members get > steamrollered or bullied by the Red Hat members? Honestly I don't > recall ever seeing the leadership in Fedora (FESCo or Board) vote purely > along the lines of who employs them... if anything there is more > disagreement amongst the Red Hat folks themselves :-) This was my experience as an inaugural Board member, and continues today. -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Wed Jun 25 00:45:00 2008 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (seth vidal) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 20:45:00 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <48615F05.8030608@leemhuis.info> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <48615F05.8030608@leemhuis.info> Message-ID: <1214354700.8545.23.camel@rosebud> On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 22:54 +0200, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > But three of those four elected are Red Hat employees for whom working > and contributing to Fedora is part of their job (afaik; but is it the > case for Seth? not completely sure, sorry. But he is well known in > Fedora though Yum, so that might be and important factor); This is not an unfair point. Being able to spend all your time on something does make it more likely you'll be well known. I mentioned this before but I'd be in favor of consecutive term limits for being on the fedora board for rh employees tasked with working on fedora full time. so, for example, I could not run for another term, but I could sit out a couple of terms and come back if I wished to run for election, again. What would you think about that? -sv From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 00:51:15 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 16:51:15 -0800 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <1214354700.8545.23.camel@rosebud> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <48615F05.8030608@leemhuis.info> <1214354700.8545.23.camel@rosebud> Message-ID: <604aa7910806241751i6ebe0ffbq9acf4161d5a1305c@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 4:45 PM, seth vidal wrote: > This is not an unfair point. Being able to spend all your time on > something does make it more likely you'll be well known. I mentioned > this before but I'd be in favor of consecutive term limits for being on > the fedora board for rh employees tasked with working on fedora full > time. > > so, for example, I could not run for another term, but I could sit out a > couple of terms and come back if I wished to run for election, again. > > What would you think about that? I'd be happy to have a term limit even as a non-rh employee. -jef From jwboyer at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 00:58:58 2008 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 20:58:58 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <604aa7910806241751i6ebe0ffbq9acf4161d5a1305c@mail.gmail.com> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <48615F05.8030608@leemhuis.info> <1214354700.8545.23.camel@rosebud> <604aa7910806241751i6ebe0ffbq9acf4161d5a1305c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1214355538.14225.60.camel@weaponx> On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 16:51 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 4:45 PM, seth vidal wrote: > > This is not an unfair point. Being able to spend all your time on > > something does make it more likely you'll be well known. I mentioned > > this before but I'd be in favor of consecutive term limits for being on > > the fedora board for rh employees tasked with working on fedora full > > time. > > > > so, for example, I could not run for another term, but I could sit out a > > couple of terms and come back if I wished to run for election, again. > > > > What would you think about that? > > I'd be happy to have a term limit even as a non-rh employee. Agreed. Now that you are both on the Board (again), just vote that into the bylaws. josh From jeffreyt at fedoraproject.org Wed Jun 25 01:00:40 2008 From: jeffreyt at fedoraproject.org (Jeffrey Tadlock) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 21:00:40 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> Message-ID: <10e0a9b00806241800p7b1cd39fne4b72f708bb3add6@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 3:17 PM, inode0 wrote: > Range voting is another aspect of the process I find discouraging in > general. I was happy to see range voting this election. I've seen this style of voting on other areas of the net, more specifically a non-technical forum that uses it for community voted product awards. I know when I first saw the new voting method I was against it - mainly because I had the same initial first reaction you did - "uh, how do I vote." I went off and did some reading about different voting methods and found that range voting really did seem like a good way to go for voting. Rather than discount range voting, which I do think works well for many elections Fedora holds, maybe we could work on making sure people are informed about range voting and how it works. That way people are informed and not as apt to be put off by different, but effective voting system. A few mailing list posts and blog posts should help inform people on this front. ~Jeffrey From jwboyer at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 01:06:45 2008 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 21:06:45 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <1214354700.8545.23.camel@rosebud> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <48615F05.8030608@leemhuis.info> <1214354700.8545.23.camel@rosebud> Message-ID: <1214356005.14225.69.camel@weaponx> On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 20:45 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 22:54 +0200, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > > > But three of those four elected are Red Hat employees for whom working > > and contributing to Fedora is part of their job (afaik; but is it the > > case for Seth? not completely sure, sorry. But he is well known in > > Fedora though Yum, so that might be and important factor); > > > This is not an unfair point. Being able to spend all your time on > something does make it more likely you'll be well known. It's only unfair in one aspect; it targets Red Hat without targeting other employers. What if someone at Dell were paid to work full time on Fedora? They would obviously reap the same visibility benefits as a Red Hat employee working on Fedora. It is becoming more and more common for companies to invest man hours into open source projects. I do not see this trend changing drastically in the near future, so it's something projects such as Fedora are going to have to come to terms with in some form. Fedora has come a long way since Seth was building packages for Extras by hand. Our build system, compose tools, updates tools, build machines, CVS repository, etc have all had significant monetary and man hour investment from Red Hat. I sincerely _hope_ that as Fedora grows, we get similar contributions from other companies or community members because none of this is cheap and without it our growth would not have been as rapid or successful. josh From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Wed Jun 25 01:16:25 2008 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (seth vidal) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 21:16:25 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <1214356005.14225.69.camel@weaponx> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <48615F05.8030608@leemhuis.info> <1214354700.8545.23.camel@rosebud> <1214356005.14225.69.camel@weaponx> Message-ID: <1214356585.8545.26.camel@rosebud> On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 21:06 -0400, Josh Boyer wrote: > It's only unfair in one aspect; it targets Red Hat without targeting > other employers. What if someone at Dell were paid to work full time on > Fedora? They would obviously reap the same visibility benefits as a Red > Hat employee working on Fedora. If our biggest problem is companies other than red hat paying their employees full time to work on fedora then WOW we have fantastic problems. :) I'd be happy for a general consecutive term limit for all board members and/or for anyone employed (by anyone) to work on fedora full time. -sv From jwboyer at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 01:26:34 2008 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 21:26:34 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <1214356585.8545.26.camel@rosebud> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <48615F05.8030608@leemhuis.info> <1214354700.8545.23.camel@rosebud> <1214356005.14225.69.camel@weaponx> <1214356585.8545.26.camel@rosebud> Message-ID: <1214357194.14225.79.camel@weaponx> On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 21:16 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 21:06 -0400, Josh Boyer wrote: > > > It's only unfair in one aspect; it targets Red Hat without targeting > > other employers. What if someone at Dell were paid to work full time on > > Fedora? They would obviously reap the same visibility benefits as a Red > > Hat employee working on Fedora. > > If our biggest problem is companies other than red hat paying their > employees full time to work on fedora then WOW we have fantastic > problems. :) We can always dream. Sometimes if you work hard enough, those turn into reality. josh From bugs.michael at gmx.net Wed Jun 25 00:31:29 2008 From: bugs.michael at gmx.net (Michael Schwendt) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 02:31:29 +0200 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <4861785E.8080508@redhat.com> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <20080624231854.c0bc0551.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <4861785E.8080508@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20080625023129.13d17bd9.bugs.michael@gmx.net> On Tue, 24 Jun 2008 15:42:38 -0700, John Poelstra wrote: > Michael Schwendt said the following on 06/24/2008 02:18 PM Pacific Time: > > On Tue, 24 Jun 2008 16:02:04 -0400 (EDT), Max Spevack wrote: > > > >> What else would you like to see from Red Hat to prove that it takes > >> Fedora and community seriously? I'm not trolling, I really want to > >> konw, so that I can work on making it happen. > > > > What I mean is that almost all Fedora related decisions come out of Red > > Hat anyway. The few +1 from community seats during FPB meetings don't > > Can you provide some examples where this happened in the last six > months? That would help me understand more where you are coming from. The "Fedora Board Recap" minutes posted here, and not limited to the last six months (and not limited to the FPB either). I don't think there is big activity from the people who hold the community seats (with 1-2 exceptions maybe), and it's uninteresting to see people nod something through. If everyone's in agreement, does it matter who I vote for? As I see it, the people employed by Red Hat [can] spend much more time on these things than the elected community reps. Additional people from Red Hat, who occupy other roles and don't hold seats in the FPB, are much more present and active, too. The same names also appear in the longest threads on mailing-lists, even if it's just about release codenames. Makes people think "fine, let them run the show, especially if it's their job and if they seem to have the time to do it". It's not as if the major activity must come from within the community. It's not a community project, but a Red Hat sponsored project trying to win community volunteers for some areas. If the investment of the community into the project increases, then elections (and quorum'n'stuff) get more interesting. Do you remember any important decision where the FPB didn't reach quorum because of strong disagreement between non-RH and RH members? > > matter, do they? They are just noise. It gets more interesting if a > > community rep drives something forward. Or if there is disagreement > > between Red Hat's FPB members and community reps or lobbyists. If > > necessary, do the people on the community seats have the guts to represent > > the community's interests? If they don't, what about accountability? > > I think it would really help your case to put forth some specific > examples of when this has or has not happened recently. > > Maybe I'm not following what you're saying, Looks like you're biased and in "defensive mode" already. What I'm saying, in other words, is that the election is rather uninteresting. So uninteresting that loading the web page and taking the time to vote may be considered a waste of time already. One can try little games like Greg and vote for non-RH candidates only, but one could also throw dice and pick random candidates. From stickster at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 01:58:05 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 01:58:05 +0000 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <1214355538.14225.60.camel@weaponx> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <48615F05.8030608@leemhuis.info> <1214354700.8545.23.camel@rosebud> <604aa7910806241751i6ebe0ffbq9acf4161d5a1305c@mail.gmail.com> <1214355538.14225.60.camel@weaponx> Message-ID: <1214359085.3825.276.camel@victoria> On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 20:58 -0400, Josh Boyer wrote: > On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 16:51 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 4:45 PM, seth vidal wrote: > > > This is not an unfair point. Being able to spend all your time on > > > something does make it more likely you'll be well known. I mentioned > > > this before but I'd be in favor of consecutive term limits for being on > > > the fedora board for rh employees tasked with working on fedora full > > > time. > > > > > > so, for example, I could not run for another term, but I could sit out a > > > couple of terms and come back if I wished to run for election, again. > > > > > > What would you think about that? > > > > I'd be happy to have a term limit even as a non-rh employee. > > Agreed. > > Now that you are both on the Board (again), just vote that into the > bylaws. You realize that this would mean Matt Domsch could no longer be a member for life, right? ;-) -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From matt at domsch.com Wed Jun 25 02:18:35 2008 From: matt at domsch.com (Matt Domsch) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 21:18:35 -0500 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <1214359085.3825.276.camel@victoria> References: <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <48615F05.8030608@leemhuis.info> <1214354700.8545.23.camel@rosebud> <604aa7910806241751i6ebe0ffbq9acf4161d5a1305c@mail.gmail.com> <1214355538.14225.60.camel@weaponx> <1214359085.3825.276.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <20080625021835.GA4673@domsch.com> On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 01:58:05AM +0000, Paul W. Frields wrote: > You realize that this would mean Matt Domsch could no longer be a member > for life, right? ;-) With an excess of good candidates running this time, and what I only hope is more excellent candidates in 6 months, I suspect I'm a short-timer regardless of term limits... :-) From jwboyer at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 03:04:50 2008 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 23:04:50 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <1214359085.3825.276.camel@victoria> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <48615F05.8030608@leemhuis.info> <1214354700.8545.23.camel@rosebud> <604aa7910806241751i6ebe0ffbq9acf4161d5a1305c@mail.gmail.com> <1214355538.14225.60.camel@weaponx> <1214359085.3825.276.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <1214363090.14225.82.camel@weaponx> On Wed, 2008-06-25 at 01:58 +0000, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 20:58 -0400, Josh Boyer wrote: > > On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 16:51 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 4:45 PM, seth vidal wrote: > > > > This is not an unfair point. Being able to spend all your time on > > > > something does make it more likely you'll be well known. I mentioned > > > > this before but I'd be in favor of consecutive term limits for being on > > > > the fedora board for rh employees tasked with working on fedora full > > > > time. > > > > > > > > so, for example, I could not run for another term, but I could sit out a > > > > couple of terms and come back if I wished to run for election, again. > > > > > > > > What would you think about that? > > > > > > I'd be happy to have a term limit even as a non-rh employee. > > > > Agreed. > > > > Now that you are both on the Board (again), just vote that into the > > bylaws. > > You realize that this would mean Matt Domsch could no longer be a member > for life, right? ;-) You're also empowered enough to create a special designation or committee for him to rule over. I like: Matt Domsch, Mirror Master of the Universe. I suck at naming though. Get someone from Marketing to create something better ;) josh From gdk at redhat.com Wed Jun 25 03:29:57 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 23:29:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <20080625023129.13d17bd9.bugs.michael@gmx.net> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <20080624231854.c0bc0551.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <4861785E.8080508@redhat.com> <20080625023129.13d17bd9.bugs.michael@gmx.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, Michael Schwendt wrote: > Looks like you're biased and in "defensive mode" already. Maybe that's because you are in "offensive mode", Michael. > What I'm saying, in other words, is that the election is rather > uninteresting. So uninteresting that loading the web page and taking the > time to vote may be considered a waste of time already. One can try > little games like Greg and vote for non-RH candidates only, but one > could also throw dice and pick random candidates. Actually, I figured that I was taking a principled position -- the same principled position I've held for 3.5 years, created a governance model to reflect, and went toe-to-toe with executive vice presidents over -- that volunteers should be empowered with as much responsibility as they have the time or inclination to accept. But I guess you don't see it that way. What is your point with all of this, Michael? Is there some actual change that you're trying to create? Do you not feel sufficiently empowered to drive the behavior you're looking to see in Fedora? Or are you just trolling? --g From mmcgrath at redhat.com Wed Jun 25 03:41:54 2008 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 22:41:54 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <1214356585.8545.26.camel@rosebud> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <48615F05.8030608@leemhuis.info> <1214354700.8545.23.camel@rosebud> <1214356005.14225.69.camel@weaponx> <1214356585.8545.26.camel@rosebud> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Jun 2008, seth vidal wrote: > On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 21:06 -0400, Josh Boyer wrote: > > > It's only unfair in one aspect; it targets Red Hat without targeting > > other employers. What if someone at Dell were paid to work full time on > > Fedora? They would obviously reap the same visibility benefits as a Red > > Hat employee working on Fedora. > > If our biggest problem is companies other than red hat paying their > employees full time to work on fedora then WOW we have fantastic > problems. :) > > I'd be happy for a general consecutive term limit for all board members > and/or for anyone employed (by anyone) to work on fedora full time. > Side note about this. If your employer is interested in doing this but isn't sure where to start. I've already got some things in mind, contact me. -Mike From rc040203 at freenet.de Wed Jun 25 03:45:11 2008 From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 05:45:11 +0200 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> Message-ID: <1214365511.3656.156.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 13:52 -0400, Josh Boyer wrote: > On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 11:21 -0600, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 11:12 AM, Josh Boyer wrote: > > > On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 08:40 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > >> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 8:23 AM, Josh Boyer wrote: > > >> > ?What purpose would getting the answers to those questions serve? > > >> > > >> If we are unhappy with the total voter turnout and want to do > > >> something about it for the next election... then making an effort to > > >> identify if there is an imbalance in the voting would be worthwhile. > > >> Did our European contributors vote in proportion to their cla numbers > > >> compared to the North American contributors? If not.. then we know to > > >> lean on Max and try to get those numbers up for the next election. He > > >> should be fluent in European by now, so he shouldn't need any help > > >> traveling the countryside gathering voters in his wake. > > > > > > That answers the geographic question you had. Sounds like a very sane > > > reason and I'm also curious as to what the results of that would be. > > > > > > Why do you want to know about the percentage of Red Hat voters vs. > > > community? > > > > > > > If the majority of people who voted are inside of RH and not out... > > then you have a potential bias you need to focus on the next election. > > Why didn't people outside of RH vote? My personal view: People feel the board is a RH internal business, which has never represented the "people" and has never dealt with issues directly affecting people. > > Is the process working? IMO: no. In addition to what I wrote above, I found the election has been poorly communicated/promoted - Even I almost missed it. And when voting, I had difficulties in finding candidates I would want to vote for ... > Voting is one of the ways to have them feel recognized and represented. > If they didn't bother to vote, they gave up that mechanism for > representation voluntarily. I do not share this view. Low votes indicate people having not found it worth to vote or not having known about a vote. Ralf From smooge at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 03:52:15 2008 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 21:52:15 -0600 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <1214365511.3656.156.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <1214365511.3656.156.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> Message-ID: <80d7e4090806242052o6d174395kf9b69670c7b48e25@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 9:45 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 13:52 -0400, Josh Boyer wrote: >> On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 11:21 -0600, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: >> > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 11:12 AM, Josh Boyer wrote: >> > > On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 08:40 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: >> > >> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 8:23 AM, Josh Boyer wrote: >> > >> > ?What purpose would getting the answers to those questions serve? >> > >> >> > >> If we are unhappy with the total voter turnout and want to do >> > >> something about it for the next election... then making an effort to >> > >> identify if there is an imbalance in the voting would be worthwhile. >> > >> Did our European contributors vote in proportion to their cla numbers >> > >> compared to the North American contributors? If not.. then we know to >> > >> lean on Max and try to get those numbers up for the next election. He >> > >> should be fluent in European by now, so he shouldn't need any help >> > >> traveling the countryside gathering voters in his wake. >> > > >> > > That answers the geographic question you had. Sounds like a very sane >> > > reason and I'm also curious as to what the results of that would be. >> > > >> > > Why do you want to know about the percentage of Red Hat voters vs. >> > > community? >> > > >> > >> > If the majority of people who voted are inside of RH and not out... >> > then you have a potential bias you need to focus on the next election. >> > Why didn't people outside of RH vote? > My personal view: People feel the board is a RH internal business, which > has never represented the "people" and has never dealt with issues > directly affecting people. > I don't agree, but I have no idea what people you are talking about... the proletariat people or the people working on Fedora? >> > Is the process working? > IMO: no. > > In addition to what I wrote above, I found the election has been poorly > communicated/promoted - Even I almost missed it. > > And when voting, I had difficulties in finding candidates I would want > to vote for ... > Ok I don't see how you could have missed it. It got sent out in multiple mailing lists, lots of people blogged about it.. but I guess I was more aware since I wasn't going to try and run this time because I don't want to be overbooked. Now for finding candidates.. you can always run yourself or find someone you want to run and get them nominated (eg get them to want to run). >> Voting is one of the ways to have them feel recognized and represented. >> If they didn't bother to vote, they gave up that mechanism for >> representation voluntarily. > I do not share this view. Low votes indicate people having not found it > worth to vote or not having known about a vote. > > Ralf > > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board > -- Stephen J Smoogen. -- BSD/GNU/Linux How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice" From rc040203 at freenet.de Wed Jun 25 04:23:40 2008 From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 06:23:40 +0200 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <80d7e4090806242052o6d174395kf9b69670c7b48e25@mail.gmail.com> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <1214365511.3656.156.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806242052o6d174395kf9b69670c7b48e25@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1214367821.3656.186.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 21:52 -0600, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 9:45 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > > On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 13:52 -0400, Josh Boyer wrote: > >> On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 11:21 -0600, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > >> > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 11:12 AM, Josh Boyer wrote: > >> > > On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 08:40 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > >> > >> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 8:23 AM, Josh Boyer wrote: > >> > >> > ?What purpose would getting the answers to those questions serve? > >> > >> > >> > >> If we are unhappy with the total voter turnout and want to do > >> > >> something about it for the next election... then making an effort to > >> > >> identify if there is an imbalance in the voting would be worthwhile. > >> > >> Did our European contributors vote in proportion to their cla numbers > >> > >> compared to the North American contributors? If not.. then we know to > >> > >> lean on Max and try to get those numbers up for the next election. He > >> > >> should be fluent in European by now, so he shouldn't need any help > >> > >> traveling the countryside gathering voters in his wake. > >> > > > >> > > That answers the geographic question you had. Sounds like a very sane > >> > > reason and I'm also curious as to what the results of that would be. > >> > > > >> > > Why do you want to know about the percentage of Red Hat voters vs. > >> > > community? > >> > > > >> > > >> > If the majority of people who voted are inside of RH and not out... > >> > then you have a potential bias you need to focus on the next election. > >> > Why didn't people outside of RH vote? > > My personal view: People feel the board is a RH internal business, which > > has never represented the "people" and has never dealt with issues > > directly affecting people. > > > > I don't agree, but I have no idea what people you are talking about... > the proletariat people or the people working on Fedora? The latter, because that's the people which were supposed to vote. But ask yourselves: * What does the board do which directly impacts "joe average Fedora contributor"? IMO, almost nothing - It's FESCO, which does. * How has the board been composed so far? An overwhelming RH majority. * How do you expect the board be composed in future? %50 RH assigned seats, the rest is being elected by a RH dominated group of voters. So, everything but seeing a ca. 2/3-3/4 RH-dominated board would be a surprise. The next board will have a 90-100% RH-dominated board, well, the overall situation hasn't changed at all. This board is designed to be a RH internal business. > >> > Is the process working? > > IMO: no. > > > > In addition to what I wrote above, I found the election has been poorly > > communicated/promoted - Even I almost missed it. > > > > And when voting, I had difficulties in finding candidates I would want > > to vote for ... > > > > Ok I don't see how you could have missed it. Ohh, it had been quite easy ... it got lost in the lists' traffic. > It got sent out in > multiple mailing lists, lots of people blogged about it.. but I guess > I was more aware since I wasn't going to try and run this time because > I don't want to be overbooked. I was aware about "the vote is going to happen some time soon", but I almost missed the final "opening". I only noticed it when cleaning up my FAB-list folder before going on vacation for a week and voted "last minute" before leaving. > Now for finding candidates.. you can always run yourself or find > someone you want to run and get them nominated (eg get them to want to > run). One can't do everything oneself. That's one of fundamental working principles of democracy. I simply could not find "the candidate" I would like to vote for and therefore resorted to "voting for the least evil". If I wasn't a deeply convinced democrat, who takes participating in votes for governments for granted, I probably would have abstained the vote. Ralf From gdk at redhat.com Wed Jun 25 04:37:22 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 00:37:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <1214367821.3656.186.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <1214365511.3656.156.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806242052o6d174395kf9b69670c7b48e25@mail.gmail.com> <1214367821.3656.186.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > But ask yourselves: > > * What does the board do which directly impacts "joe average Fedora > contributor"? IMO, almost nothing - It's FESCO, which does. There is some truth to this. To some degree, this is by design. If Fedora governance as a whole is working effectively, problems are resolved before they reach the board. A board that is meddling in every decision does not scale. Sometimes the board squabbles about issues like Codeina. Sometimes the board deals with difficult legal/policy issues that are, in fact, *extremely* impactful to the Fedora community, but can't be discussed openly. And I can understand how sometimes it seems like the board doesn't do much. > * How has the board been composed so far? An overwhelming RH majority. Yes. But consider: a good number of people on the board did *not* work for Red Hat when they first joined the community. For people who aspire to work on Fedora full-time, serving on the board is one of the most effective means of getting there. > * How do you expect the board be composed in future? > %50 RH assigned seats, the rest is being elected by a RH dominated group > of voters. Just because the group of voters is RH-dominated today doesn't mean it will be that way forever. Bear in mind: the membership has more than doubled in a matter of a few months. > So, everything but seeing a ca. 2/3-3/4 RH-dominated board would be a > surprise. The next board will have a 90-100% RH-dominated board, well, > the overall situation hasn't changed at all. This board is designed to > be a RH internal business. You can say that all you want, but it doesn't make it so. If you want to assert that the *effect* is that it feels as though RH is making too many decisions, that's fine, and that's a worthwhile discussion. But for you to assert that the *intent* of the board is to be "RH internal business" is a slap in the face to all of the people who have stuggled against *very long odds* to create a public governance model for Fedora. >> Now for finding candidates.. you can always run yourself or find >> someone you want to run and get them nominated (eg get them to want to >> run). > > One can't do everything oneself. That's one of fundamental working > principles of democracy. I simply could not find "the candidate" I would > like to vote for and therefore resorted to "voting for the least evil". > > If I wasn't a deeply convinced democrat, who takes participating in > votes for governments for granted, I probably would have abstained the > vote. This is a perfect example of why governments frequently suck -- because people leave the hard work of governance to others. Here's the facts: democratic governments, all over the world, are usually run by the people who bother to show up. I can see a lot of good points in the discussion. But if it all boils down to "I don't have time to participate in Fedora governance," then just say that. Because that's really what you are saying. --g From rc040203 at freenet.de Wed Jun 25 05:16:23 2008 From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 07:16:23 +0200 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <1214365511.3656.156.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806242052o6d174395kf9b69670c7b48e25@mail.gmail.com> <1214367821.3656.186.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> Message-ID: <1214370983.3656.216.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> On Wed, 2008-06-25 at 00:37 -0400, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > > So, everything but seeing a ca. 2/3-3/4 RH-dominated board would be a > > surprise. The next board will have a 90-100% RH-dominated board, well, > > the overall situation hasn't changed at all. This board is designed to > > be a RH internal business. > > You can say that all you want, but it doesn't make it so. If you want to > assert that the *effect* is that it feels as though RH is making too many > decisions, that's fine, and that's a worthwhile discussion. But for you > to assert that the *intent* of the board is to be "RH internal business" > is a slap in the face to all of the people who have stuggled against *very > long odds* to create a public governance model for Fedora. Well, is this of importance to non-RH Fedora contributors? There might have been progress to resistance against Fedora internal to RH, but ... why should non-RH's care? I for one don't know and feel I don't have to know nor to care. Any entity being involved into a larger project must have some "instance" to draw _internal_ decisions, any such entity must have some "mechanisms" to communicate/coordinate _their_ resources/contributions to others ... everybody has to do so - May-be I am miss-understanding, but that's exactly how I interpret the board's role in Fedora, it's part of RH's internal management. > >> Now for finding candidates.. you can always run yourself or find > >> someone you want to run and get them nominated (eg get them to want to > >> run). > > > > One can't do everything oneself. That's one of fundamental working > > principles of democracy. I simply could not find "the candidate" I would > > like to vote for and therefore resorted to "voting for the least evil". > > > > If I wasn't a deeply convinced democrat, who takes participating in > > votes for governments for granted, I probably would have abstained the > > vote. > > This is a perfect example of why governments frequently suck -- because > people leave the hard work of governance to others. Hmm ?!? Today's democracies are "representative democracies". They are supposed to be based on electing delegates, representing "the people" and the "people"'s will. > Here's the facts: > democratic governments, all over the world, are usually run by the people > who bother to show up. Yes, ... and if they don't represent the people, in longer terms they are going not to be re-elected or be kicked out of office, or the people will leave their government alone. > I can see a lot of good points in the discussion. But if it all boils > down to "I don't have time to participate in Fedora governance," then just > say that. Because that's really what you are saying. Partially correct. Better would be: I don't have time nor interest in actively participating in this governance system. I do have the time and interest to vote on MY delegate, such that I feel my opinion is represented in this "governance system". Ralf From dennis at ausil.us Wed Jun 25 05:50:29 2008 From: dennis at ausil.us (Dennis Gilmore) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 00:50:29 -0500 Subject: Fedora Board election results Message-ID: <200806250050.35041.dennis@ausil.us> On Tuesday 24 June 2008, Michael Schwendt wrote: > On Tue, 24 Jun 2008 16:02:04 -0400 (EDT), Max Spevack wrote: > > What else would you like to see from Red Hat to prove that it takes > > Fedora and community seriously? I'm not trolling, I really want to > > konw, so that I can work on making it happen. > > What I mean is that almost all Fedora related decisions come out of Red > Hat anyway. The few +1 from community seats during FPB meetings don't > matter, do they? They are just noise. It gets more interesting if a > community rep drives something forward. Or if there is disagreement > between Red Hat's FPB members and community reps or lobbyists. If > necessary, do the people on the community seats have the guts to represent > the community's interests? If they don't, what about accountability? Well I for one am a community member and I am driving forward Secondary arches. Ive had some but limited help from inside RH. I quite often disagreed with things and was vocal in doing so. I also agreed with things. I made decisions based on what I felt was best for fedora. I am not always as vocal as others about what it is that I am working on. While I am no longer on the board i will continue to do the work that I do and be vocal in support and disagreement with decisions as I see them. > The financial investments you refer to only add to the fact of how big Red > Hat's stake in the Fedora Project is. No budget increase, no growth. No > people working on Fedora full-time, no growth. The project is still young > and must grow. Hence Red Hat is forced to find a balance between pursuing > its own business goals with Fedora and opening up further to increase the > community's investment in Fedora, which is still poor. As you can see > whenever a long-time contributor or user leaves disgruntled. The decision > to leave is too easy. Voting community reps is a nice gimmick, but doesn't > result in power. by sitting on the sidelines and not being active you are ensuring that the power remains where it is. Ive certainly had times where I am frustrated and not happy with whats going on. Fedora today is much more open and transparent than it has been at any time in its past. The road ahead is more openness and transparency. > It's still too early to say we have a large pool of community reps to draw > from for FPB seats. A growing number of contributors, yes, but only very > few with interest in [project] politics, project management, and the > additional time requirements. The last year has certainly been an enjoyable and rewarding experience. I hope that the Fedora community thinks that I represented them well. If not then I ask that people tell me what I could have done better. -- Dennis Gilmore -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Jun 25 06:30:35 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:00:35 +0530 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <200806250050.35041.dennis@ausil.us> References: <200806250050.35041.dennis@ausil.us> Message-ID: <4861E60B.3080906@fedoraproject.org> Dennis Gilmore wrote: > The last year has certainly been an enjoyable and rewarding experience. I > hope that the Fedora community thinks that I represented them well. If not > then I ask that people tell me what I could have done better. Communicating more often on what you are doing would be great. Blogging or sending periodical status updates to the development list etc. I for one don't know the current status of secondary architectures for example and I pretty actively follow all the communication channels. Rahul From jonrob at fedoraproject.org Wed Jun 25 06:30:02 2008 From: jonrob at fedoraproject.org (Jonathan Roberts) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 07:30:02 +0100 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <1214370983.3656.216.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <1214365511.3656.156.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806242052o6d174395kf9b69670c7b48e25@mail.gmail.com> <1214367821.3656.186.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214370983.3656.216.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> Message-ID: <507738ef0806242330x2e0bdc3wfd28011af707afdd@mail.gmail.com> >> You can say that all you want, but it doesn't make it so. If you want to >> assert that the *effect* is that it feels as though RH is making too many >> decisions, that's fine, and that's a worthwhile discussion. But for you >> to assert that the *intent* of the board is to be "RH internal business" >> is a slap in the face to all of the people who have stuggled against *very >> long odds* to create a public governance model for Fedora. > Well, is this of importance to non-RH Fedora contributors? I would say so, yes. I'm a non-RH Fedora contributor, and I have huge respect for Greg and Max and everyone in RH who has worked so hard to make Fedora what it is today and to give volunteers like myself the opportunity to be involved with the project's governance. I spend a not insignificant amount of time working on and thinking about Fedora (maybe I need to get out more :p), and I want to be sure that this time isn't being wasted and that the project continues in a direction that I agree with. You may disagree, but having the ability to stand for election, and to serve on the board is an important part of this. From bugs.michael at gmx.net Wed Jun 25 11:36:05 2008 From: bugs.michael at gmx.net (Michael Schwendt) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 13:36:05 +0200 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <20080624231854.c0bc0551.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <4861785E.8080508@redhat.com> <20080625023129.13d17bd9.bugs.michael@gmx.net> Message-ID: <20080625133605.90fd650b.bugs.michael@gmx.net> On Tue, 24 Jun 2008 23:29:57 -0400 (EDT), Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > > On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, Michael Schwendt wrote: > > > Looks like you're biased and in "defensive mode" already. > > Maybe that's because you are in "offensive mode", Michael. What is offensive about saying that I think almost all decisions come out of Red Hat (Legal, Financial, Engineering, RHEL Engineering, Fedora Leadership)? I'm _not_ saying that Red Hat uses a majority to overrule community reps. If you or John read it that way, I can't help you. If you feel being attacked, relax. Perhaps read my initial reply once more and don't see negative words everywhere. > What is your point with all of this, Michael? Is there some actual change > that you're trying to create? Do you not feel sufficiently empowered to > drive the behavior you're looking to see in Fedora? 6% voter participation is weak. Very weak. I was happy to see interest in gathering statistics on the voters. Then when it was suggested to ask the community as whey they didn't vote, I explained why I almost didn't vote either. You don't like the reply or you see it differently. Perhaps next time I won't vote anymore. Simply because I don't see how it matters. Or I will vote again and reward the 1-2 nominees where I see proof of ability (and to support the system). There's the "Board Elections open on 13 June" mail from Paul Frields. Scroll down to the bottom, to the chapter after the "* * *". Read it. It magically creates three "? ? ?" in your head. Look at past board elections, the nominees and the elected members, try to remember their mission statements (if any) and achieved goals. Any highlights? Any examples of where it made a huge difference to vote for X instead of Y? (other than that it's more difficult for a community rep to spend a similar amount of time on fedora than a RH employee) > Or are you just trolling? Thanks, no. If memory serves correctly, it's the first time I'm being asked that. How things can change. One year ago, Max asked me "have you considered running for Fedora Board?". :-) From bugs.michael at gmx.net Wed Jun 25 11:38:11 2008 From: bugs.michael at gmx.net (Michael Schwendt) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 13:38:11 +0200 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <507738ef0806242330x2e0bdc3wfd28011af707afdd@mail.gmail.com> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <1214365511.3656.156.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806242052o6d174395kf9b69670c7b48e25@mail.gmail.com> <1214367821.3656.186.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214370983.3656.216.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <507738ef0806242330x2e0bdc3wfd28011af707afdd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080625133811.07f1f79e.bugs.michael@gmx.net> On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 07:30:02 +0100, Jonathan Roberts wrote: > I spend a not insignificant amount of time working on and thinking > about Fedora (maybe I need to get out more :p), and I want to be sure > that this time isn't being wasted Still, for many fedora contributors you come out of nowhere. Which communication channels do I need to follow to get a picture of your general opinion in fedora related matters? Besides your main interest (which seems to be open content), what is your point of view about the many other areas which are relevant to community volunteers? What topics do you try to stay informed about? What do you care about? Do you think fedora is doing well everywhere? What do you approve? What do you disapprove? Where could fedora do better? Those are questions a voter is concerned about. > and that the project continues in a direction that I agree with. When you speak of continuation, what are the next steps in that direction? From stickster at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 12:11:21 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:11:21 +0000 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <20080625133811.07f1f79e.bugs.michael@gmx.net> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <1214365511.3656.156.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806242052o6d174395kf9b69670c7b48e25@mail.gmail.com> <1214367821.3656.186.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214370983.3656.216.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <507738ef0806242330x2e0bdc3wfd28011af707afdd@mail.gmail.com> <20080625133811.07f1f79e.bugs.michael@gmx.net> Message-ID: <1214395881.3825.337.camel@victoria> On Wed, 2008-06-25 at 13:38 +0200, Michael Schwendt wrote: > On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 07:30:02 +0100, Jonathan Roberts wrote: > > > I spend a not insignificant amount of time working on and thinking > > about Fedora (maybe I need to get out more :p), and I want to be sure > > that this time isn't being wasted > > Still, for many fedora contributors you come out of nowhere. Which > communication channels do I need to follow to get a picture of your > general opinion in fedora related matters? Besides your main interest > (which seems to be open content), what is your point of view about the > many other areas which are relevant to community volunteers? What topics > do you try to stay informed about? What do you care about? Do you think > fedora is doing well everywhere? What do you approve? What do you > disapprove? Where could fedora do better? Those are questions a voter is > concerned about. > > > and that the project continues in a direction that I agree with. > > When you speak of continuation, what are the next steps in that direction? Michael, these questions are all very valid (although a few probably need to be more specific), and it seems to me they could easily have been asked before the election. The nominations page that candidates wrote up to include their names on the ballot: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/Elections/Nominations ...can easily be used to post any such Q & A. There was a space of about a month available to have these questions asked and answered, so I hope you will take better advantage of that time in the next election cycle. -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jwboyer at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 12:38:25 2008 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 08:38:25 -0400 Subject: Fedora, Red Hat, and the community Message-ID: <1214397505.14225.104.camel@weaponx> The recent Board discussion highlights that despite efforts to the contrary, there is still a Us vs. Them mentality in Fedora when it comes to the community and Red Hat. Rather than write out a very long and preachy email about why that shouldn't be, I'm going to take a different approach. Below are a series of questions that will hopefully help me get an understanding about why people feel this way. If you care, please answer them. Until we, Red Hat and the community, act as a whole coherent project we are going to continue to stumble in areas we really shouldn't be. So let's clear the air: 1) Are there examples of where Red Hat is stifling growth or limiting exploration of topics in Fedora? Please provide clear examples and evidence of such (mailing list posts, etc). 2) In recent history (past 2 years), has Red Hat done anything you consider to be detrimental to the Fedora project? Please provide clear evidence. 3) If you have concerns about Red Hat's corporate sponsorship of Fedora, what are those? I'm sure there are other questions that can be asked, but these seem to cover most of the concerns I've seen so far. josh From jkeating at redhat.com Wed Jun 25 12:42:45 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 08:42:45 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <1214356005.14225.69.camel@weaponx> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <48615F05.8030608@leemhuis.info> <1214354700.8545.23.camel@rosebud> <1214356005.14225.69.camel@weaponx> Message-ID: <1214397765.11688.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 21:06 -0400, Josh Boyer wrote: > > It's only unfair in one aspect; it targets Red Hat without targeting > other employers. What if someone at Dell were paid to work full time on > Fedora? They would obviously reap the same visibility benefits as a Red > Hat employee working on Fedora. > > It is becoming more and more common for companies to invest man hours > into open source projects. I do not see this trend changing drastically > in the near future, so it's something projects such as Fedora are going > to have to come to terms with in some form. I am actually evidence of this. In one of my past roles, Fedora was vitally important to our business. As such, one of my main duties was to spend time on the Fedora project and ensure that it was continuing to go in a direction that was compatible with our business. That's also what spawned Fedora Legacy. In other words, I was a paid Fedora contributor long before I was a Red Hat employee. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From loupgaroublond at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 12:45:37 2008 From: loupgaroublond at gmail.com (Yaakov Nemoy) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 14:45:37 +0200 Subject: Fedora, Red Hat, and the community In-Reply-To: <1214397505.14225.104.camel@weaponx> References: <1214397505.14225.104.camel@weaponx> Message-ID: <7f692fec0806250545p1ff791e2p8aba869528f6b291@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 2:38 PM, Josh Boyer wrote: > The recent Board discussion highlights that despite efforts to the > contrary, there is still a Us vs. Them mentality in Fedora when it comes > to the community and Red Hat. Rather than write out a very long and > preachy email about why that shouldn't be, I'm going to take a different > approach. Just my 0.02 USD, I think people are more afraid of there being a Red Hat bias, and there is this odd hyper awareness that some people are Red Hat and some people are not. I think Red Hat has received pretty good confidences and trust from the community so far. Furthermore, many of the 'Red Hat' people are really as much Fedora as they are Red Hat. I think people recognize this more than we might think. (Yes, that sentence is a contradiction.) -Yaakov From jwboyer at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 12:54:38 2008 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 08:54:38 -0400 Subject: Fedora, Red Hat, and the community In-Reply-To: <7f692fec0806250545p1ff791e2p8aba869528f6b291@mail.gmail.com> References: <1214397505.14225.104.camel@weaponx> <7f692fec0806250545p1ff791e2p8aba869528f6b291@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1214398478.14225.106.camel@weaponx> On Wed, 2008-06-25 at 14:45 +0200, Yaakov Nemoy wrote: > On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 2:38 PM, Josh Boyer wrote: > > The recent Board discussion highlights that despite efforts to the > > contrary, there is still a Us vs. Them mentality in Fedora when it comes > > to the community and Red Hat. Rather than write out a very long and > > preachy email about why that shouldn't be, I'm going to take a different > > approach. > > Just my 0.02 USD, I think people are more afraid of there being a Red > Hat bias, and there is this odd hyper awareness that some people are > Red Hat and some people are not. I think Red Hat has received pretty > good confidences and trust from the community so far. Furthermore, > many of the 'Red Hat' people are really as much Fedora as they are Red > Hat. I think people recognize this more than we might think. > > (Yes, that sentence is a contradiction.) That's my observation as well. But I wanted to give people an opportunity to spell out specific items that bother them. josh From poelstra at redhat.com Wed Jun 25 13:00:13 2008 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 06:00:13 -0700 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <20080625023129.13d17bd9.bugs.michael@gmx.net> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <20080624231854.c0bc0551.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <4861785E.8080508@redhat.com> <20080625023129.13d17bd9.bugs.michael@gmx.net> Message-ID: <4862415D.9040408@redhat.com> Michael Schwendt said the following on 06/24/2008 05:31 PM Pacific Time: >> I think it would really help your case to put forth some specific >> examples of when this has or has not happened recently. >> >> Maybe I'm not following what you're saying, > > Looks like you're biased and in "defensive mode" already. What I'm saying, > in other words, is that the election is rather uninteresting. So > uninteresting that loading the web page and taking the time to vote may be > considered a waste of time already. One can try little games like Greg > and vote for non-RH candidates only, but one could also throw dice and > pick random candidates. > It looks like we're not getting anywhere so I will conclude with this. I was hoping we could have more of a "conversation" and understand each other's point of view which is what I was genuinely attempting to do. Summarily dismissing me as "biased" and "defensive" reduces things to a personal level (away from the issues) and limits that opportunity. You've put forth several very strong assertions about how Red Hat controls all decisions and that community input is meaningless. It is disingenuous to the conversation to put forth assertions like this without any supporting evidence and then say others are "defensive" and "biased" when they seek more details. John From jkeating at redhat.com Wed Jun 25 13:09:03 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 09:09:03 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <604aa7910806241751i6ebe0ffbq9acf4161d5a1305c@mail.gmail.com> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <48615F05.8030608@leemhuis.info> <1214354700.8545.23.camel@rosebud> <604aa7910806241751i6ebe0ffbq9acf4161d5a1305c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1214399343.11688.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 16:51 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 4:45 PM, seth vidal wrote: > > This is not an unfair point. Being able to spend all your time on > > something does make it more likely you'll be well known. I mentioned > > this before but I'd be in favor of consecutive term limits for being on > > the fedora board for rh employees tasked with working on fedora full > > time. > > > > so, for example, I could not run for another term, but I could sit out a > > couple of terms and come back if I wished to run for election, again. > > > > What would you think about that? > > I'd be happy to have a term limit even as a non-rh employee. > I'm very much for term limits, and I feel strongly that it should be a general thing, not specific to any one person due to one's employment at the time. Trying to bias it on ones employment just becomes too difficult, especially given the case that one could be a Red Hat employee in a completely different part of the organization, yet still spend one's free time on Fedora. Or in people's cases like mine, I'm paid by Red Hat, with the basic mandate of "Go forth and make Fedora successful, as defined by Fedora". I tell RH what I'm doing, not the other way around. I'm accountable to the Fedora community, and if at any time the Fedora community looses their confidence in me, then my paycheck would be in jeopardy. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From smooge at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 13:13:08 2008 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 07:13:08 -0600 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <20080624231854.c0bc0551.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <4861785E.8080508@redhat.com> <20080625023129.13d17bd9.bugs.michael@gmx.net> Message-ID: <80d7e4090806250613h58d21704n386230d5969a948a@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 9:29 PM, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > What is your point with all of this, Michael? Is there some actual change > that you're trying to create? Do you not feel sufficiently empowered to > drive the behavior you're looking to see in Fedora? Or are you just > trolling? > Greg I don't see him as trolling. I see someone who was asked why he didn't vote, and he gave the answer of his perceptions. Remember the big rule of email conversations... 1. Do not post shortly before or after a release without re-reading it several times. 2. Do not post shortly before or after a summit before re-reading it several times :). -- Stephen J Smoogen. -- BSD/GNU/Linux How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice" From smooge at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 13:18:58 2008 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 07:18:58 -0600 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <4862415D.9040408@redhat.com> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <20080624231854.c0bc0551.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <4861785E.8080508@redhat.com> <20080625023129.13d17bd9.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <4862415D.9040408@redhat.com> Message-ID: <80d7e4090806250618j688dd28axf253b6ba582c729a@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 7:00 AM, John Poelstra wrote: > Michael Schwendt said the following on 06/24/2008 05:31 PM Pacific Time: >>> >>> I think it would really help your case to put forth some specific >>> examples of when this has or has not happened recently. >>> >>> Maybe I'm not following what you're saying, >> >> Looks like you're biased and in "defensive mode" already. What I'm saying, >> in other words, is that the election is rather uninteresting. So >> uninteresting that loading the web page and taking the time to vote may be >> considered a waste of time already. One can try little games like Greg >> and vote for non-RH candidates only, but one could also throw dice and >> pick random candidates. >> > > It looks like we're not getting anywhere so I will conclude with this. > > I was hoping we could have more of a "conversation" and understand each > other's point of view which is what I was genuinely attempting to do. > Summarily dismissing me as "biased" and "defensive" reduces things to a > personal level (away from the issues) and limits that opportunity. > > You've put forth several very strong assertions about how Red Hat controls > all decisions and that community input is meaningless. It is disingenuous > to the conversation to put forth assertions like this without any supporting > evidence and then say others are "defensive" and "biased" when they seek > more details. > Actually I didn't read the original as that.. but I can see how it could be seen as that. I do not think this is a conversation that does well in email. There are too many human conversational queue's missing and people are putting in a lot of what they think the other person's body language in. If we are going to use range voting to give people better 'feelings' of commitment, I think that initial gathering of comments about lack of participation are going to be done in a similar format.. -- Stephen J Smoogen. -- BSD/GNU/Linux How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice" From bugs.michael at gmx.net Wed Jun 25 13:22:22 2008 From: bugs.michael at gmx.net (Michael Schwendt) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 15:22:22 +0200 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <4862415D.9040408@redhat.com> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <20080624231854.c0bc0551.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <4861785E.8080508@redhat.com> <20080625023129.13d17bd9.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <4862415D.9040408@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20080625152222.a7c74fda.bugs.michael@gmx.net> On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 06:00:13 -0700, John Poelstra wrote: > You've put forth several very strong assertions about how Red Hat > controls all decisions and that community input is meaningless. Where? From smooge at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 13:23:51 2008 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 07:23:51 -0600 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <1214370983.3656.216.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <1214365511.3656.156.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806242052o6d174395kf9b69670c7b48e25@mail.gmail.com> <1214367821.3656.186.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214370983.3656.216.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> Message-ID: <80d7e4090806250623g62d05498p6870cd112814873f@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 11:16 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: >> I can see a lot of good points in the discussion. But if it all boils >> down to "I don't have time to participate in Fedora governance," then just >> say that. Because that's really what you are saying. > Partially correct. > > Better would be: I don't have time nor interest in actively > participating in this governance system. I do have the time and interest > to vote on MY delegate, such that I feel my opinion is represented in > this "governance system". > I think we are still suffering from communication bit loss somewhere (German to English or just the human usual I forgot to type something). Are you wanting regional representational democracy? organizational representational democracy? parliamentary system? republic system? A constitutional system? -- Stephen J Smoogen. -- BSD/GNU/Linux How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice" From gdk at redhat.com Wed Jun 25 13:35:23 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 09:35:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <80d7e4090806250623g62d05498p6870cd112814873f@mail.gmail.com> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <1214365511.3656.156.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806242052o6d174395kf9b69670c7b48e25@mail.gmail.com> <1214367821.3656.186.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214370983.3656.216.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806250623g62d05498p6870cd112814873f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 11:16 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > >>> I can see a lot of good points in the discussion. But if it all boils >>> down to "I don't have time to participate in Fedora governance," then just >>> say that. Because that's really what you are saying. >> >> Partially correct. >> >> Better would be: I don't have time nor interest in actively >> participating in this governance system. I do have the time and interest >> to vote on MY delegate, such that I feel my opinion is represented in >> this "governance system". >> > > I think we are still suffering from communication bit loss somewhere > (German to English or just the human usual I forgot to type > something). Are you wanting regional representational democracy? > organizational representational democracy? parliamentary system? > republic system? A constitutional system? At times like this, I think it's simplest to solicit an actual proposal. If the current governance system is suboptimal, let's see a proposal for an alternative system of governance. --g From inode0 at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 13:39:30 2008 From: inode0 at gmail.com (inode0) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 08:39:30 -0500 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <80d7e4090806250623g62d05498p6870cd112814873f@mail.gmail.com> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <1214365511.3656.156.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806242052o6d174395kf9b69670c7b48e25@mail.gmail.com> <1214367821.3656.186.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214370983.3656.216.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806250623g62d05498p6870cd112814873f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 8:23 AM, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 11:16 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > >>> I can see a lot of good points in the discussion. But if it all boils >>> down to "I don't have time to participate in Fedora governance," then just >>> say that. Because that's really what you are saying. >> Partially correct. >> >> Better would be: I don't have time nor interest in actively >> participating in this governance system. I do have the time and interest >> to vote on MY delegate, such that I feel my opinion is represented in >> this "governance system". >> > > I think we are still suffering from communication bit loss somewhere > (German to English or just the human usual I forgot to type > something). Are you wanting regional representational democracy? > organizational representational democracy? parliamentary system? > republic system? A constitutional system? One difficulty with these elections is that you don't have time during them to actually learn much about who and what you are voting on. Range voting does impose a higher burden on the voter than other forms of voting (this may well be a good thing to impose on the voter, I'm not arguing that it isn't) but I find it hard in 10 days or even 1 month to learn enough of value to my decision making process to allow me to cast reasoned votes for 8 people. With elections connected to release cycles this is likely a problem that can't easily be fixed since there just isn't much time available. Another thing that might help is maybe a pre-election statement from the board to wrap some context around an election. What has the current board accomplished? What are the major open issues the board is currently dealing with? Then the candidates rather than saying "I'm going to work to make Fedora great!" could actually address some of the outstanding issues directly. Without some focus on issues that need to be addressed what are we really to base votes on? John From rdieter at math.unl.edu Wed Jun 25 13:46:48 2008 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 08:46:48 -0500 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <20080625152222.a7c74fda.bugs.michael@gmx.net> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <20080624231854.c0bc0551.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <4861785E.8080508@redhat.com> <20080625023129.13d17bd9.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <4862415D.9040408@redhat.com> <20080625152222.a7c74fda.bugs.michael@gmx.net> Message-ID: <48624C48.30603@math.unl.edu> Michael Schwendt wrote: > On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 06:00:13 -0700, John Poelstra wrote: > >> You've put forth several very strong assertions about how Red Hat >> controls all decisions and that community input is meaningless. > > Where? Several places, among them previous in this thread: "I think almost all decisions come out of Red Hat" -- Rex From bugs.michael at gmx.net Wed Jun 25 14:07:57 2008 From: bugs.michael at gmx.net (Michael Schwendt) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 16:07:57 +0200 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <48624C48.30603@math.unl.edu> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <20080624231854.c0bc0551.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <4861785E.8080508@redhat.com> <20080625023129.13d17bd9.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <4862415D.9040408@redhat.com> <20080625152222.a7c74fda.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <48624C48.30603@math.unl.edu> Message-ID: <20080625160757.5bc7cf92.bugs.michael@gmx.net> On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 08:46:48 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote: > Michael Schwendt wrote: > > On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 06:00:13 -0700, John Poelstra wrote: > > > >> You've put forth several very strong assertions about how Red Hat > >> controls all decisions and that community input is meaningless. > > > > Where? > > Several places, among them previous in this thread: "I think almost all > decisions come out of Red Hat" And that is equal to "Red Hat _controls all_ decisions and community input is _meaningless_"? Wow! From jwboyer at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 14:34:37 2008 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 10:34:37 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <20080625160757.5bc7cf92.bugs.michael@gmx.net> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <20080624231854.c0bc0551.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <4861785E.8080508@redhat.com> <20080625023129.13d17bd9.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <4862415D.9040408@redhat.com> <20080625152222.a7c74fda.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <48624C48.30603@math.unl.edu> <20080625160757.5bc7cf92.bugs.michael@gmx.net> Message-ID: <1214404477.14225.113.camel@weaponx> On Wed, 2008-06-25 at 16:07 +0200, Michael Schwendt wrote: > On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 08:46:48 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote: > > > Michael Schwendt wrote: > > > On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 06:00:13 -0700, John Poelstra wrote: > > > > > >> You've put forth several very strong assertions about how Red Hat > > >> controls all decisions and that community input is meaningless. > > > > > > Where? > > > > Several places, among them previous in this thread: "I think almost all > > decisions come out of Red Hat" > > And that is equal to "Red Hat _controls all_ decisions and community > input is _meaningless_"? Wow! Perhaps not the latter part, but the statement does imply that Red Hat controls all the decisions. This might be a case of native English vs. non-native English here. If you didn't mean that Red Hat controls the decisions with your statement, what exactly did you mean by "...come out of Red Hat"? josh From jkeating at redhat.com Wed Jun 25 14:38:06 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 10:38:06 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <1214365511.3656.156.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806242052o6d174395kf9b69670c7b48e25@mail.gmail.com> <1214367821.3656.186.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214370983.3656.216.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806250623g62d05498p6870cd112814873f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1214404686.11688.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2008-06-25 at 08:39 -0500, inode0 wrote: > Another thing that might help is maybe a pre-election statement from > the board to wrap some context around an election. What has the > current board accomplished? What are the major open issues the board > is currently dealing with? Then the candidates rather than saying "I'm > going to work to make Fedora great!" could actually address some of > the outstanding issues directly. Without some focus on issues that > need to be addressed what are we really to base votes on? This would actually be pretty neat. I had a hard time coming up with some text as my candidacy announcement, this would help a lot. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From rc040203 at freenet.de Wed Jun 25 14:48:06 2008 From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 16:48:06 +0200 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <80d7e4090806250623g62d05498p6870cd112814873f@mail.gmail.com> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <1214365511.3656.156.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806242052o6d174395kf9b69670c7b48e25@mail.gmail.com> <1214367821.3656.186.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214370983.3656.216.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806250623g62d05498p6870cd112814873f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1214405286.3656.324.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> On Wed, 2008-06-25 at 07:23 -0600, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 11:16 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > > >> I can see a lot of good points in the discussion. But if it all boils > >> down to "I don't have time to participate in Fedora governance," then just > >> say that. Because that's really what you are saying. > > Partially correct. > > > > Better would be: I don't have time nor interest in actively > > participating in this governance system. I do have the time and interest > > to vote on MY delegate, such that I feel my opinion is represented in > > this "governance system". > > > > I think we are still suffering from communication bit loss somewhere > (German to English or just the human usual I forgot to type > something). Are you wanting regional representational democracy? > organizational representational democracy? Nope. I want "a delegate whose intentions/interests match with mine at least to some extend" and whom I learned to be trustworthy. This is not tied to nationality, continents, sex, race, religion or what ever. It's simply a matter of "finding someone to vote for" amongst candidates during votes. > parliamentary system? > republic system? A constitutional system? Well, yes, I would find something along these lines better than the current system. Ralf From stickster at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 14:50:57 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 10:50:57 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <1214404686.11688.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <1214365511.3656.156.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806242052o6d174395kf9b69670c7b48e25@mail.gmail.com> <1214367821.3656.186.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214370983.3656.216.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806250623g62d05498p6870cd112814873f@mail.gmail.com> <1214404686.11688.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1214405457.3495.32.camel@victoria> On Wed, 2008-06-25 at 10:38 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Wed, 2008-06-25 at 08:39 -0500, inode0 wrote: > > Another thing that might help is maybe a pre-election statement from > > the board to wrap some context around an election. What has the > > current board accomplished? What are the major open issues the board > > is currently dealing with? Then the candidates rather than saying "I'm > > going to work to make Fedora great!" could actually address some of > > the outstanding issues directly. Without some focus on issues that > > need to be addressed what are we really to base votes on? > > This would actually be pretty neat. I had a hard time coming up with > some text as my candidacy announcement, this would help a lot. Agreed. I just updated the elections page to reflect this: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/Elections -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mmcgrath at redhat.com Wed Jun 25 14:52:44 2008 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 09:52:44 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <1214405286.3656.324.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <1214365511.3656.156.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806242052o6d174395kf9b69670c7b48e25@mail.gmail.com> <1214367821.3656.186.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214370983.3656.216.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806250623g62d05498p6870cd112814873f@mail.gmail.com> <1214405286.3656.324.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > On Wed, 2008-06-25 at 07:23 -0600, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 11:16 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > > > > >> I can see a lot of good points in the discussion. But if it all boils > > >> down to "I don't have time to participate in Fedora governance," then just > > >> say that. Because that's really what you are saying. > > > Partially correct. > > > > > > Better would be: I don't have time nor interest in actively > > > participating in this governance system. I do have the time and interest > > > to vote on MY delegate, such that I feel my opinion is represented in > > > this "governance system". > > > > > > > I think we are still suffering from communication bit loss somewhere > > (German to English or just the human usual I forgot to type > > something). Are you wanting regional representational democracy? > > organizational representational democracy? > Nope. I want "a delegate whose intentions/interests match with mine at > least to some extend" and whom I learned to be trustworthy. > I'm curious Ralf, can you name 3 things that a candidate might have that match your criteria? -Mike From stickster at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 15:02:51 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 11:02:51 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <1214365511.3656.156.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806242052o6d174395kf9b69670c7b48e25@mail.gmail.com> <1214367821.3656.186.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214370983.3656.216.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806250623g62d05498p6870cd112814873f@mail.gmail.com> <1214405286.3656.324.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> Message-ID: <1214406171.3495.37.camel@victoria> On Wed, 2008-06-25 at 09:52 -0500, Mike McGrath wrote: > On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > > > On Wed, 2008-06-25 at 07:23 -0600, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > > > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 11:16 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > > > > > > >> I can see a lot of good points in the discussion. But if it all boils > > > >> down to "I don't have time to participate in Fedora governance," then just > > > >> say that. Because that's really what you are saying. > > > > Partially correct. > > > > > > > > Better would be: I don't have time nor interest in actively > > > > participating in this governance system. I do have the time and interest > > > > to vote on MY delegate, such that I feel my opinion is represented in > > > > this "governance system". > > > > > > > > > > I think we are still suffering from communication bit loss somewhere > > > (German to English or just the human usual I forgot to type > > > something). Are you wanting regional representational democracy? > > > organizational representational democracy? > > Nope. I want "a delegate whose intentions/interests match with mine at > > least to some extend" and whom I learned to be trustworthy. > > > > I'm curious Ralf, can you name 3 things that a candidate might have that > match your criteria? [Removing fedora-board-list since we all read this one too.] -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From bugs.michael at gmx.net Wed Jun 25 15:15:30 2008 From: bugs.michael at gmx.net (Michael Schwendt) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 17:15:30 +0200 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <1214404477.14225.113.camel@weaponx> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <20080624231854.c0bc0551.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <4861785E.8080508@redhat.com> <20080625023129.13d17bd9.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <4862415D.9040408@redhat.com> <20080625152222.a7c74fda.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <48624C48.30603@math.unl.edu> <20080625160757.5bc7cf92.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <1214404477.14225.113.camel@weaponx> Message-ID: <20080625171530.18dde5db.bugs.michael@gmx.net> On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 10:34:37 -0400, Josh Boyer wrote: > On Wed, 2008-06-25 at 16:07 +0200, Michael Schwendt wrote: > > On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 08:46:48 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote: > > > > > Michael Schwendt wrote: > > > > On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 06:00:13 -0700, John Poelstra wrote: > > > > > > > >> You've put forth several very strong assertions about how Red Hat > > > >> controls all decisions and that community input is meaningless. > > > > > > > > Where? > > > > > > Several places, among them previous in this thread: "I think almost all > > > decisions come out of Red Hat" > > > > And that is equal to "Red Hat _controls all_ decisions and community > > input is _meaningless_"? Wow! > > Perhaps not the latter part, but the statement does imply that Red Hat > controls all the decisions. "almost all" is not "all", so much for sure. And what part of my mails leads to the conclusion that "community input is meaningless" is a mystery to me. > This might be a case of native English vs. non-native English here. If > you didn't mean that Red Hat controls the decisions with your statement, > what exactly did you mean by "...come out of Red Hat"? "To come out of Red Hat" means it is something that is based on prior work within Red Hat or something with a dependency on Red Hat. Add to that proposals, ideas, plans, restructuring, results from hall-way discussions, results from internal meetings, requests from internal departments, things that are set in stone already and just wait for FPB to give the obligatory +1. Nowhere, and pay attention now please, _nowhere_ did I imply that the decisions that come out of Red Hat would be bad. From gdk at redhat.com Wed Jun 25 15:23:01 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 11:23:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <20080625171530.18dde5db.bugs.michael@gmx.net> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <20080624231854.c0bc0551.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <4861785E.8080508@redhat.com> <20080625023129.13d17bd9.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <4862415D.9040408@redhat.com> <20080625152222.a7c74fda.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <48624C48.30603@math.unl.edu> <20080625160757.5bc7cf92.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <1214404477.14225.113.camel@weaponx> <20080625171530.18dde5db.bugs.michael@gmx.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, Michael Schwendt wrote: >> Perhaps not the latter part, but the statement does imply that Red Hat >> controls all the decisions. > > "almost all" is not "all", so much for sure. And what part of my mails > leads to the conclusion that "community input is meaningless" is a > mystery to me. Fair enough. I do not read any such implication. And yes, it's easy to be defensive. :) > "To come out of Red Hat" means it is something that is based on prior > work within Red Hat or something with a dependency on Red Hat. Add to > that proposals, ideas, plans, restructuring, results from hall-way > discussions, results from internal meetings, requests from internal > departments, things that are set in stone already and just wait for FPB > to give the obligatory +1. Nowhere, and pay attention now please, > _nowhere_ did I imply that the decisions that come out of Red Hat would > be bad. I guess this is the key question, and one that we need to answer as honestly as we can: If Red Hat tries to force a *bad* decision down the throats of the Fedora community, what is the ability of the Fedora board, as a body, to resist that decision? I like to think it's pretty strong. Am I fooling myself? --g From rdieter at math.unl.edu Wed Jun 25 15:42:24 2008 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 10:42:24 -0500 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <20080625171530.18dde5db.bugs.michael@gmx.net> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <20080624231854.c0bc0551.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <4861785E.8080508@redhat.com> <20080625023129.13d17bd9.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <4862415D.9040408@redhat.com> <20080625152222.a7c74fda.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <48624C48.30603@math.unl.edu> <20080625160757.5bc7cf92.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <1214404477.14225.113.camel@weaponx> <20080625171530.18dde5db.bugs.michael@gmx.net> Message-ID: <48626760.1030104@math.unl.edu> Michael Schwendt wrote: > "To come out of Red Hat" means it is something that is based on prior work > within Red Hat or something with a dependency on Red Hat. Add to that > proposals, ideas, plans, restructuring, results from hall-way discussions, > results from internal meetings, requests from internal departments, things > that are set in stone already and just wait for FPB to give the obligatory > +1. Afaict, this is based on not much more that your own perception, so let me please add my own, based on having seen a bit inside the walls: YOU ARE INCORRECT To me, the "Big Question"(tm) is now, what can we all do to correct such mis-perceptions? More communication, more transparency, more what? -- Rex From bugs.michael at gmx.net Wed Jun 25 15:52:22 2008 From: bugs.michael at gmx.net (Michael Schwendt) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 17:52:22 +0200 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <20080624231854.c0bc0551.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <4861785E.8080508@redhat.com> <20080625023129.13d17bd9.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <4862415D.9040408@redhat.com> <20080625152222.a7c74fda.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <48624C48.30603@math.unl.edu> <20080625160757.5bc7cf92.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <1214404477.14225.113.camel@weaponx> <20080625171530.18dde5db.bugs.michael@gmx.net> Message-ID: <20080625175222.e75c3005.bugs.michael@gmx.net> On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 11:23:01 -0400 (EDT), Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > I guess this is the key question, and one that we need to answer as > honestly as we can: > > If Red Hat tries to force a *bad* decision down the throats of the Fedora > community, what is the ability of the Fedora board, as a body, to resist > that decision? Due to the choice of words, it's a rather extreme scenario, but only through such controversial decisions (that means a couple of -1 from board/committee members) the community can learn whether their elected representatives perform well. The typical series of +1 accompanied with a bit of Q&A and jokes is not so interesting. A different albeit similar scenario would be that FESCo members get brain-washed into nodding through a decision that creates community uproar. Then, if the FPB community reps sleep or don't have the guts to intervene, *that* would be interesting input for the voters. I'm not interested in a "RH vs. community" thing, though, and as such I see the FPB as a team, not as opponents. From smooge at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 16:23:30 2008 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 10:23:30 -0600 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <1214405457.3495.32.camel@victoria> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <1214365511.3656.156.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806242052o6d174395kf9b69670c7b48e25@mail.gmail.com> <1214367821.3656.186.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214370983.3656.216.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806250623g62d05498p6870cd112814873f@mail.gmail.com> <1214404686.11688.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1214405457.3495.32.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <80d7e4090806250923h61d5cae9h2f68c52b5ca1af0@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 8:50 AM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Wed, 2008-06-25 at 10:38 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: >> On Wed, 2008-06-25 at 08:39 -0500, inode0 wrote: >> > Another thing that might help is maybe a pre-election statement from >> > the board to wrap some context around an election. What has the >> > current board accomplished? What are the major open issues the board >> > is currently dealing with? Then the candidates rather than saying "I'm >> > going to work to make Fedora great!" could actually address some of >> > the outstanding issues directly. Without some focus on issues that >> > need to be addressed what are we really to base votes on? >> >> This would actually be pretty neat. I had a hard time coming up with >> some text as my candidacy announcement, this would help a lot. > > Agreed. I just updated the elections page to reflect this: > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/Elections > Could we move the voting to mid release, or starting 2 weeks after the release? That would give a bit more time and energy to people who are concentrating on things that are release oriented? -- Stephen J Smoogen. -- BSD/GNU/Linux How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice" From mspevack at redhat.com Wed Jun 25 16:24:36 2008 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:24:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <20080625171530.18dde5db.bugs.michael@gmx.net> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <20080624231854.c0bc0551.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <4861785E.8080508@redhat.com> <20080625023129.13d17bd9.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <4862415D.9040408@redhat.com> <20080625152222.a7c74fda.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <48624C48.30603@math.unl.edu> <20080625160757.5bc7cf92.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <1214404477.14225.113.camel@weaponx> <20080625171530.18dde5db.bugs.michael@gmx.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, Michael Schwendt wrote: > "To come out of Red Hat" means it is something that is based on prior > work within Red Hat or something with a dependency on Red Hat. Add to > that proposals, ideas, plans, restructuring, results from hall-way > discussions, results from internal meetings, requests from internal > departments, things that are set in stone already and just wait for > FPB to give the obligatory +1. FWIW, if I had $1 for every time in the last 2.5 years I told someone *inside* Red Hat: "You can't do $FOO in Fedora without first getting the permission of the Fedora Board. Asking me is not enough. The Fedora Board is Fedora's executive team. I can tell you what I think, but I don't make the decisions all by myself." then I would be living on the beach somewhere and the only emails I would send would be to my banker in Zurich. --Max From smooge at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 16:37:38 2008 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 10:37:38 -0600 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <4861785E.8080508@redhat.com> <20080625023129.13d17bd9.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <4862415D.9040408@redhat.com> <20080625152222.a7c74fda.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <48624C48.30603@math.unl.edu> <20080625160757.5bc7cf92.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <1214404477.14225.113.camel@weaponx> <20080625171530.18dde5db.bugs.michael@gmx.net> Message-ID: <80d7e4090806250937o21ec5a84n5a7f7df878be0853@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 10:24 AM, Max Spevack wrote: > On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, Michael Schwendt wrote: > >> "To come out of Red Hat" means it is something that is based on prior work >> within Red Hat or something with a dependency on Red Hat. Add to that >> proposals, ideas, plans, restructuring, results from hall-way discussions, >> results from internal meetings, requests from internal departments, things >> that are set in stone already and just wait for FPB to give the obligatory >> +1. > > FWIW, if I had $1 for every time in the last 2.5 years I told someone > *inside* Red Hat: > > "You can't do $FOO in Fedora without first getting the permission of the > Fedora Board. Asking me is not enough. The Fedora Board is Fedora's > executive team. I can tell you what I think, but I don't make the decisions > all by myself." > > then I would be living on the beach somewhere and the only emails I would > send would be to my banker in Zurich. > Heck.. if you got $1 for the amount you say it to people outside of Red Hat you would still be pretty well off. The big issue is that unless you are actively inside an organization, your brain will morph it into an uniform ball that everyone who works/joins/participates/agrees with is the same as the worst and best person you have ever met in that organization. Humans filter every comment they here to match either your pro or negative response to something. So people inside and outside tend to believe everyone at Red Hat drinks the same kool-aid, talks in uniform, and would all wear matching clothes but it would give away the brain-plants. Humans also want to deal with one person which is why they tend towards dictatorial governments or organizations. The less a human has to think about other things (politics, getting food, etc etc) allows them more time to enjoy life (be it coding or watching tv). So Max is leader, and people have an innate desire to allow him to tell them what to do or that he should tell others what to do. -- Stephen J Smoogen. -- BSD/GNU/Linux How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice" From rc040203 at freenet.de Wed Jun 25 15:19:54 2008 From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 17:19:54 +0200 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <1214365511.3656.156.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806242052o6d174395kf9b69670c7b48e25@mail.gmail.com> <1214367821.3656.186.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214370983.3656.216.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806250623g62d05498p6870cd112814873f@mail.gmail.com> <1214405286.3656.324.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> Message-ID: <1214407195.6554.11.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> On Wed, 2008-06-25 at 09:52 -0500, Mike McGrath wrote: > On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > > > On Wed, 2008-06-25 at 07:23 -0600, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > > > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 11:16 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > > > > > > >> I can see a lot of good points in the discussion. But if it all boils > > > >> down to "I don't have time to participate in Fedora governance," then just > > > >> say that. Because that's really what you are saying. > > > > Partially correct. > > > > > > > > Better would be: I don't have time nor interest in actively > > > > participating in this governance system. I do have the time and interest > > > > to vote on MY delegate, such that I feel my opinion is represented in > > > > this "governance system". > > > > > > > > > > I think we are still suffering from communication bit loss somewhere > > > (German to English or just the human usual I forgot to type > > > something). Are you wanting regional representational democracy? > > > organizational representational democracy? > > Nope. I want "a delegate whose intentions/interests match with mine at > > least to some extend" and whom I learned to be trustworthy. > > > > I'm curious Ralf, can you name 3 things that a candidate might have that > match your criteria? In this vote, my criteria has been (in decreasing importance): * Not being @RH, because I wanted to see the community strengthened in this already @RH-predominated FPB and therefore don't see much reason into adding more @RHs. * Exclude people of whom I had learned not to be trustworthy. * People having a measurable record as Fedora contributor. * The candidates' interests overlapping with my personal interests. Ralf From caillon at redhat.com Wed Jun 25 16:50:13 2008 From: caillon at redhat.com (Christopher Aillon) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:50:13 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <1214399343.11688.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <48615F05.8030608@leemhuis.info> <1214354700.8545.23.camel@rosebud> <604aa7910806241751i6ebe0ffbq9acf4161d5a1305c@mail.gmail.com> <1214399343.11688.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <48627745.90904@redhat.com> Jesse Keating wrote: > Or in people's cases like mine, I'm paid by Red Hat, with the basic > mandate of "Go forth and make Fedora successful, as defined by Fedora". > I tell RH what I'm doing, not the other way around. I'm accountable to > the Fedora community, and if at any time the Fedora community looses > their confidence in me, then my paycheck would be in jeopardy. This is a very important distinction to make. If Red Hat were controlling things like some people in this thread say, half the board would be involved with Red Hat's products and core business (as the Board was intended to be). As it is, almost none of the @redhat.com people now on the board have involvement with RHEL, JBoss, etc. Honestly, I strongly think the current board makeup hurts Red Hat more than it hurts Fedora, because there really isn't much insight into RHEL, or JBoss, etc. on the board. It's completely Fedora dominated, which is not fair to the people that pay the bills... From bugs.michael at gmx.net Wed Jun 25 16:56:48 2008 From: bugs.michael at gmx.net (Michael Schwendt) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 18:56:48 +0200 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <20080624231854.c0bc0551.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <4861785E.8080508@redhat.com> <20080625023129.13d17bd9.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <4862415D.9040408@redhat.com> <20080625152222.a7c74fda.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <48624C48.30603@math.unl.edu> <20080625160757.5bc7cf92.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <1214404477.14225.113.camel@weaponx> <20080625171530.18dde5db.bugs.michael@gmx.net> Message-ID: <20080625185648.4521cd89.bugs.michael@gmx.net> On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:24:36 -0400 (EDT), Max Spevack wrote: > On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, Michael Schwendt wrote: > > > "To come out of Red Hat" means it is something that is based on prior > > work within Red Hat or something with a dependency on Red Hat. Add to > > that proposals, ideas, plans, restructuring, results from hall-way > > discussions, results from internal meetings, requests from internal > > departments, things that are set in stone already and just wait for > > FPB to give the obligatory +1. > > FWIW, if I had $1 for every time in the last 2.5 years I told someone > *inside* Red Hat: > > "You can't do $FOO in Fedora without first getting the permission of the > Fedora Board. Asking me is not enough. The Fedora Board is Fedora's > executive team. I can tell you what I think, but I don't make the > decisions all by myself." > > then I would be living on the beach somewhere and the only emails I > would send would be to my banker in Zurich. That doesn't contradict what I described above. And in the opposite direction, Fedora depends on Red Hat, too. From jwboyer at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 17:08:58 2008 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 13:08:58 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <48627745.90904@redhat.com> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <48615F05.8030608@leemhuis.info> <1214354700.8545.23.camel@rosebud> <604aa7910806241751i6ebe0ffbq9acf4161d5a1305c@mail.gmail.com> <1214399343.11688.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <48627745.90904@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1214413738.14225.115.camel@weaponx> On Wed, 2008-06-25 at 12:50 -0400, Christopher Aillon wrote: > Jesse Keating wrote: > > Or in people's cases like mine, I'm paid by Red Hat, with the basic > > mandate of "Go forth and make Fedora successful, as defined by Fedora". > > I tell RH what I'm doing, not the other way around. I'm accountable to > > the Fedora community, and if at any time the Fedora community looses > > their confidence in me, then my paycheck would be in jeopardy. > > This is a very important distinction to make. If Red Hat were > controlling things like some people in this thread say, half the board > would be involved with Red Hat's products and core business (as the > Board was intended to be). As it is, almost none of the @redhat.com > people now on the board have involvement with RHEL, JBoss, etc. > > Honestly, I strongly think the current board makeup hurts Red Hat more > than it hurts Fedora, because there really isn't much insight into RHEL, > or JBoss, etc. on the board. It's completely Fedora dominated, which is > not fair to the people that pay the bills... That's why RH has appointed seats. So if they aren't appointing people to lookout for their business interests, there's not much Fedora can do about it... josh From jkeating at redhat.com Wed Jun 25 17:20:41 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 13:20:41 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <1214407195.6554.11.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <1214365511.3656.156.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806242052o6d174395kf9b69670c7b48e25@mail.gmail.com> <1214367821.3656.186.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214370983.3656.216.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806250623g62d05498p6870cd112814873f@mail.gmail.com> <1214405286.3656.324.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214407195.6554.11.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> Message-ID: <1214414441.11688.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2008-06-25 at 17:19 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > > In this vote, my criteria has been (in decreasing importance): > * Not being @RH, because I wanted to see the community strengthened in > this already @RH-predominated FPB and therefore don't see much reason > into adding more @RHs. Do you feel that every Red Hat employee is the same person, and that we all have the same opinions and ideals? Is our getting a paycheck from Red Hat somehow make us less interested in seeing Fedora be the greater good for the greater community? Is there no way to get past this prejudice ? -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From caillon at redhat.com Wed Jun 25 17:32:31 2008 From: caillon at redhat.com (Christopher Aillon) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 13:32:31 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <1214413738.14225.115.camel@weaponx> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <48615F05.8030608@leemhuis.info> <1214354700.8545.23.camel@rosebud> <604aa7910806241751i6ebe0ffbq9acf4161d5a1305c@mail.gmail.com> <1214399343.11688.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <48627745.90904@redhat.com> <1214413738.14225.115.camel@weaponx> Message-ID: <4862812F.8040505@redhat.com> Josh Boyer wrote: > That's why RH has appointed seats. So if they aren't appointing people > to lookout for their business interests, there's not much Fedora can do > about it... So our choices now are appoint yet another @redhat.com person which will make the community complain louder (can we say 7-2?), or appoint someone from the community which will not represent Red Hat's interests. Both options have pretty bad downsides for Red Hat. We're trying to both play nice with the community by giving them a say, and protect our interests. Which is probably not completely possible this time around.... From rc040203 at freenet.de Wed Jun 25 17:36:37 2008 From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 19:36:37 +0200 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <1214414441.11688.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <1214365511.3656.156.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806242052o6d174395kf9b69670c7b48e25@mail.gmail.com> <1214367821.3656.186.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214370983.3656.216.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806250623g62d05498p6870cd112814873f@mail.gmail.com> <1214405286.3656.324.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214407195.6554.11.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214414441.11688.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1214415398.6554.54.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> On Wed, 2008-06-25 at 13:20 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Wed, 2008-06-25 at 17:19 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > > > > In this vote, my criteria has been (in decreasing importance): > > * Not being @RH, because I wanted to see the community strengthened in > > this already @RH-predominated FPB and therefore don't see much reason > > into adding more @RHs. > > Do you feel that every Red Hat employee is the same person, and that we > all have the same opinions and ideals? Not at all, except that _some_ @RH's appear to "drink the same kool-aid, talks in uniform, and would all wear matching clothes". > Is our getting a paycheck from > Red Hat somehow make us less interested in seeing Fedora be the greater > good for the greater community? Is there no way to get past this > prejudice ? This is not prejudice, my criterion above had primarily been a political decision, because ... (see above) I want to see the community strengthened and not to be furtherly predominated with further @RHs. To some of the @RH candidates anther thought applied: I consider the concentration of "responibilities" in Fedora some people have accumulated to be unhealthy. IMO, Fedora should find regulations for such situations, e.g. FESCO and FPB positions to be mutually exclusive. Ralf From bugs.michael at gmx.net Wed Jun 25 17:37:44 2008 From: bugs.michael at gmx.net (Michael Schwendt) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 19:37:44 +0200 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <4862812F.8040505@redhat.com> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <48615F05.8030608@leemhuis.info> <1214354700.8545.23.camel@rosebud> <604aa7910806241751i6ebe0ffbq9acf4161d5a1305c@mail.gmail.com> <1214399343.11688.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <48627745.90904@redhat.com> <1214413738.14225.115.camel@weaponx> <4862812F.8040505@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20080625193744.fbeaf31f.bugs.michael@gmx.net> On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 13:32:31 -0400, Christopher Aillon wrote: > Josh Boyer wrote: > > That's why RH has appointed seats. So if they aren't appointing people > > to lookout for their business interests, there's not much Fedora can do > > about it... > > So our choices now are appoint yet another @redhat.com person which will > make the community complain louder "The community" just elected three @redhat.com -- have you missed that? From caillon at redhat.com Wed Jun 25 17:40:33 2008 From: caillon at redhat.com (Christopher Aillon) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 13:40:33 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <20080625193744.fbeaf31f.bugs.michael@gmx.net> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <48615F05.8030608@leemhuis.info> <1214354700.8545.23.camel@rosebud> <604aa7910806241751i6ebe0ffbq9acf4161d5a1305c@mail.gmail.com> <1214399343.11688.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <48627745.90904@redhat.com> <1214413738.14225.115.camel@weaponx> <4862812F.8040505@redhat.com> <20080625193744.fbeaf31f.bugs.michael@gmx.net> Message-ID: <48628311.5000205@redhat.com> Michael Schwendt wrote: > "The community" just elected three @redhat.com -- have you missed that? I haven't. But people including you are complaining about it being too @redhat.com dominated. It's a valid complaint, and one I also think is a problem. From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 17:44:44 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 09:44:44 -0800 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <1214404686.11688.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <1214365511.3656.156.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806242052o6d174395kf9b69670c7b48e25@mail.gmail.com> <1214367821.3656.186.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214370983.3656.216.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806250623g62d05498p6870cd112814873f@mail.gmail.com> <1214404686.11688.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <604aa7910806251044g1bb35c69w3ac6a82a729b7d3a@mail.gmail.com> > On Wed, 2008-06-25 at 08:39 -0500, inode0 wrote: > Another thing that might help is maybe a pre-election statement from > the board to wrap some context around an election. What has the > current board accomplished? What are the major open issues the board > is currently dealing with? Then the candidates rather than saying "I'm > going to work to make Fedora great!" could actually address some of > the outstanding issues directly. Without some focus on issues that > need to be addressed what are we really to base votes on? What if most of what the Board has to deal with, revolves around legal issues that can't be talked about transparently? There is a reason why the Board calls and lists are private. There is an unspoken assumption here, that being on the Board gives you some amount of new ability to work on fedora community facing items or issues. It does not. The crap that I have to deal with as a board member is exactly the crap that noone would ever want to plan to do as part of their pre-election statement. We try very hard to limit what we are doing inside the scope of the Board calls and private list to items which need to be in the Board calls and private list. The only new ability being on the Board grants is being able to use the position on the Board to get conversations started outside of our existing community. So since Jesse is interested in 3rd party packager relations, being able to say 'I'm on the Board' might buy him a modicum more respect so he can get his foot into the door for conversations. Paul continues to chide me when I use the board list instead of driving what I am thinking about to public spaces. Everything interesting that anyone can come up to do inside the existing community can be done without the Board having any say in unless there is a legal aspect that must be considered. I can not stress this enough. If there is an important issue that someone wants to drive, then they should do it, regardless of whether or not the Board has officially blessed the idea. When Matt and Jesse and I were at FUDCON this winter, and we got into a fist fight over the issue of source distribution requirements, Matt and I went off and explored what it would take so that people could rely on our VCS to regenerate srpms on demand. The fact that Matt and I were on the Board had absolutely nothing to do with that attempt to find a solution to the issue. The reality is that as an official body, as issues bubble up, the Board reacts. The Board is there as an arbitrator when individual subgroups get stuck or policies and processes break down. Because of the semi-private nature of the board communications we do NOT want to make too many decisions. We are much more excited to ratify polices and ideas worked out in the open by subgroups in the full project umbrella, because each of us on the Board individually want as much transparency as possible. The Board is there as a construct to deal with the crap that we can't do transparently and as such that construct should not be abused. If you want to see the next election be issue oriented. Then I think asking the sitting Board to explain the issues of importance is utterly wrong. It's not in my best interest as a candidate to tell other candidates what they are suppose to say. The community needs to tell the Board and the candidates what the important issues should be. Most likely the sitting Board will decide the person bringing up a specific issue is right and it does needs addressing and will empower and task that very same person with addressing it, leaving nothing for the new candidates to talk about. In fact we need to community to be doing that on a regular basis, telling us what the issues are. Hold our damn feet to the fire. What we need is a way for people in the community who perceive that there are issues needing more attention to talk about those issues. I thought this list was meant to be exactly that resource, but maybe its not, maybe we need something else. -jef From jkeating at redhat.com Wed Jun 25 17:45:49 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 13:45:49 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <1214415398.6554.54.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <1214365511.3656.156.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806242052o6d174395kf9b69670c7b48e25@mail.gmail.com> <1214367821.3656.186.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214370983.3656.216.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806250623g62d05498p6870cd112814873f@mail.gmail.com> <1214405286.3656.324.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214407195.6554.11.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214414441.11688.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1214415398.6554.54.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> Message-ID: <1214415949.11688.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2008-06-25 at 19:36 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > IMO, Fedora should find regulations for such situations, e.g. FESCO and > FPB positions to be mutually exclusive. I don't disagree with this, which is why I had stated earlier that if I won Fedora board, I would not run again for FESCo, and that's exactly what I plan to do. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 17:48:37 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 09:48:37 -0800 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <48627745.90904@redhat.com> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <48615F05.8030608@leemhuis.info> <1214354700.8545.23.camel@rosebud> <604aa7910806241751i6ebe0ffbq9acf4161d5a1305c@mail.gmail.com> <1214399343.11688.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <48627745.90904@redhat.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910806251048w22a5fe62nb82bcb67d207ab11@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 8:50 AM, Christopher Aillon wrote: > Honestly, I strongly think the current board makeup hurts Red Hat more than > it hurts Fedora, because there really isn't much insight into RHEL, or > JBoss, etc. on the board. It's completely Fedora dominated, which is not > fair to the people that pay the bills... Perhaps we don't need a Board seat to make sure we keep a line of communication going between what is going on in the RHEL-universe and what is going on in Fedora. But this issue is completely opaque to me so I can't help with this. -jef From rdieter at math.unl.edu Wed Jun 25 17:53:05 2008 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:53:05 -0500 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <48627745.90904@redhat.com> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <48615F05.8030608@leemhuis.info> <1214354700.8545.23.camel@rosebud> <604aa7910806241751i6ebe0ffbq9acf4161d5a1305c@mail.gmail.com> <1214399343.11688.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <48627745.90904@redhat.com> Message-ID: <48628601.8000105@math.unl.edu> Christopher Aillon wrote: > Honestly, I strongly think the current board makeup hurts Red Hat more > than it hurts Fedora, because there really isn't much insight into RHEL, > or JBoss, etc. on the board. Imo, the RH interests you mention would be much better served being involved in other areas (FESCo, packaging, marketing), which lies *outside* of the board. -- Rex From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 17:54:24 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 09:54:24 -0800 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <1214365511.3656.156.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806242052o6d174395kf9b69670c7b48e25@mail.gmail.com> <1214367821.3656.186.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214370983.3656.216.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806250623g62d05498p6870cd112814873f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910806251054u6e9057ey3e1684966979edf1@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 5:35 AM, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > At times like this, I think it's simplest to solicit an actual proposal. > > If the current governance system is suboptimal, let's see a proposal for an > alternative system of governance. Vote for me! As your constitutional monarch! -jef"My plan for a more exciting election involves having both shuttleworth and esr run for board seats next time"spaleta From caillon at redhat.com Wed Jun 25 18:06:01 2008 From: caillon at redhat.com (Christopher Aillon) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 14:06:01 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <48628601.8000105@math.unl.edu> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <48615F05.8030608@leemhuis.info> <1214354700.8545.23.camel@rosebud> <604aa7910806241751i6ebe0ffbq9acf4161d5a1305c@mail.gmail.com> <1214399343.11688.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <48627745.90904@redhat.com> <48628601.8000105@math.unl.edu> Message-ID: <48628909.1090904@redhat.com> Rex Dieter wrote: > Christopher Aillon wrote: > >> Honestly, I strongly think the current board makeup hurts Red Hat more >> than it hurts Fedora, because there really isn't much insight into >> RHEL, or JBoss, etc. on the board. > > Imo, the RH interests you mention would be much better served being > involved in other areas (FESCo, packaging, marketing), which lies > *outside* of the board. There's some truth to that. RHEL engineers should be involved with FESCo/FPC. Red Hat marketing should be involved with Fedora Marketing. But for the Board which is more "big picture" type stuff, we want product/project management to have some say in the big picture. The Board is definitely not where technical discussions are had. That should be handled by FESCo or something other than the board. The times the Board has tried to make technical decisions in the past have turned out poorly, and my instinct says it's not likely to happen again in the future. From jkeating at redhat.com Wed Jun 25 18:16:55 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 14:16:55 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <48628909.1090904@redhat.com> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <48615F05.8030608@leemhuis.info> <1214354700.8545.23.camel@rosebud> <604aa7910806241751i6ebe0ffbq9acf4161d5a1305c@mail.gmail.com> <1214399343.11688.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <48627745.90904@redhat.com> <48628601.8000105@math.unl.edu> <48628909.1090904@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1214417815.11688.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2008-06-25 at 14:06 -0400, Christopher Aillon wrote: > Rex Dieter wrote: > > Christopher Aillon wrote: > > > >> Honestly, I strongly think the current board makeup hurts Red Hat more > >> than it hurts Fedora, because there really isn't much insight into > >> RHEL, or JBoss, etc. on the board. > > > > Imo, the RH interests you mention would be much better served being > > involved in other areas (FESCo, packaging, marketing), which lies > > *outside* of the board. > > There's some truth to that. RHEL engineers should be involved with > FESCo/FPC. Red Hat marketing should be involved with Fedora Marketing. > But for the Board which is more "big picture" type stuff, we want > product/project management to have some say in the big picture. > > The Board is definitely not where technical discussions are had. That > should be handled by FESCo or something other than the board. The times > the Board has tried to make technical decisions in the past have turned > out poorly, and my instinct says it's not likely to happen again in the > future. > There is a by-weekly call between various Red Hat (RHEL) engineering/product managers and various Fedora resources within Red Hat. This call is to keep everybody up to speed on what's going on and the thoughts of the two groups. No actual decisions are made there, information is gathered for other decision making meetings. This is to say that having RHEL folks on the board is not necessary to keep the RHEL product/engineering managers Consulted and Informed ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RACI_diagram ) -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From bugs.michael at gmx.net Wed Jun 25 18:25:50 2008 From: bugs.michael at gmx.net (Michael Schwendt) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 20:25:50 +0200 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <48628311.5000205@redhat.com> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <48615F05.8030608@leemhuis.info> <1214354700.8545.23.camel@rosebud> <604aa7910806241751i6ebe0ffbq9acf4161d5a1305c@mail.gmail.com> <1214399343.11688.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <48627745.90904@redhat.com> <1214413738.14225.115.camel@weaponx> <4862812F.8040505@redhat.com> <20080625193744.fbeaf31f.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <48628311.5000205@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20080625202550.4c6848d3.bugs.michael@gmx.net> On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 13:40:33 -0400, Christopher Aillon wrote: > Michael Schwendt wrote: > > "The community" just elected three @redhat.com -- have you missed that? > > I haven't. But people including you are complaining about it being too > @redhat.com dominated. Huh? Where? This list is really funny. From loupgaroublond at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 18:27:53 2008 From: loupgaroublond at gmail.com (Yaakov Nemoy) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 20:27:53 +0200 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <4862812F.8040505@redhat.com> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <48615F05.8030608@leemhuis.info> <1214354700.8545.23.camel@rosebud> <604aa7910806241751i6ebe0ffbq9acf4161d5a1305c@mail.gmail.com> <1214399343.11688.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <48627745.90904@redhat.com> <1214413738.14225.115.camel@weaponx> <4862812F.8040505@redhat.com> Message-ID: <7f692fec0806251127i5a73e8bag4c707ccfc3c1e698@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 7:32 PM, Christopher Aillon wrote: > Josh Boyer wrote: >> >> That's why RH has appointed seats. So if they aren't appointing people >> to lookout for their business interests, there's not much Fedora can do >> about it... > > So our choices now are appoint yet another @redhat.com person which will > make the community complain louder (can we say 7-2?), or appoint someone > from the community which will not represent Red Hat's interests. Both > options have pretty bad downsides for Red Hat. We're trying to both play > nice with the community by giving them a say, and protect our interests. > Which is probably not completely possible this time around.... To the contrary. Perhaps the voters have decided that Red Hat has been doing an awesome job. I don't get where the big deal is. -Yaakov From inode0 at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 18:29:01 2008 From: inode0 at gmail.com (inode0) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 13:29:01 -0500 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <604aa7910806251044g1bb35c69w3ac6a82a729b7d3a@mail.gmail.com> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <1214365511.3656.156.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806242052o6d174395kf9b69670c7b48e25@mail.gmail.com> <1214367821.3656.186.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214370983.3656.216.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806250623g62d05498p6870cd112814873f@mail.gmail.com> <1214404686.11688.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910806251044g1bb35c69w3ac6a82a729b7d3a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 12:44 PM, Jeff Spaleta wrote: >> On Wed, 2008-06-25 at 08:39 -0500, inode0 wrote: >> Another thing that might help is maybe a pre-election statement from >> the board to wrap some context around an election. What has the >> current board accomplished? What are the major open issues the board >> is currently dealing with? Then the candidates rather than saying "I'm >> going to work to make Fedora great!" could actually address some of >> the outstanding issues directly. Without some focus on issues that >> need to be addressed what are we really to base votes on? > > What if most of what the Board has to deal with, revolves around legal > issues that can't be talked about transparently? There is a reason > why the Board calls and lists are private. Then the report says the board dealt with various confidential legal matters. > There is an unspoken assumption here, that being on the Board gives > you some amount of new ability to work on fedora community facing > items or issues. It does not. The crap that I have to deal with as a > board member is exactly the crap that noone would ever want to plan to > do as part of their pre-election statement. We try very hard to limit > what we are doing inside the scope of the Board calls and private list > to items which need to be in the Board calls and private list. No, there is not an unspoken assumption here about any such thing. What I am looking for is any reasonable criteria on which to cast a sensible vote in these elections. That is all. No secret agenda, no hidden assumptions. Thus far I have basically heard two explanations of how people actually did vote. One was "I like candidate X so I voted for him" and the other was "I voted for all candidates that don't get paid by Red Hat." If that is all there is to grab onto then I'll continue to not vote. > ... snip ... > If you want to see the next election be issue oriented. Then I think > asking the sitting Board to explain the issues of importance is > utterly wrong. It's not in my best interest as a candidate to tell > other candidates what they are suppose to say. The community needs to > tell the Board and the candidates what the important issues should be. You are making it really hard for me to see why an election matters. > Most likely the sitting Board will decide the person bringing up a > specific issue is right and it does needs addressing and will empower > and task that very same person with addressing it, leaving nothing for > the new candidates to talk about. Do we want elections that have candidates that have no issues or positions and have nothing to talk about with the people they are asking to vote for them? In the end this is a sham, it has to be a sham. We have no reason to vote for or against any of these candidates. Without such a reason there isn't any point in an election, it will just end up with a small group of people playing musical chairs until they get bored and decide to do something else. > In fact we need to community to be doing that on a regular basis, > telling us what the issues are. Hold our damn feet to the fire. What > we need is a way for people in the community who perceive that there > are issues needing more attention to talk about those issues. I > thought this list was meant to be exactly that resource, but maybe its > not, maybe we need something else. We can't hold your feet to the fire if you won't tell us what you do. :) John From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 18:34:50 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 10:34:50 -0800 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <7f692fec0806251127i5a73e8bag4c707ccfc3c1e698@mail.gmail.com> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <48615F05.8030608@leemhuis.info> <1214354700.8545.23.camel@rosebud> <604aa7910806241751i6ebe0ffbq9acf4161d5a1305c@mail.gmail.com> <1214399343.11688.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <48627745.90904@redhat.com> <1214413738.14225.115.camel@weaponx> <4862812F.8040505@redhat.com> <7f692fec0806251127i5a73e8bag4c707ccfc3c1e698@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910806251134h73ad0149s680c33e9f70c228f@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 10:27 AM, Yaakov Nemoy wrote: > To the contrary. Perhaps the voters have decided that Red Hat has > been doing an awesome job. I don't get where the big deal is. Or perhaps people don't see these people as red hat at all. Perhaps for example, the people who voted for Seth did so because he best represents their dirty hippy ideals of home gardening, mass transportation, and free love. I personally firmly believe that if Red Hat as a corporate entity implodes, Seth will have engineered the carnage with the hopes of bulldozing each corporate office and replacing it with a community vegetable garden. -jef From mspevack at redhat.com Wed Jun 25 18:34:46 2008 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 14:34:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <20080625202550.4c6848d3.bugs.michael@gmx.net> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <48615F05.8030608@leemhuis.info> <1214354700.8545.23.camel@rosebud> <604aa7910806241751i6ebe0ffbq9acf4161d5a1305c@mail.gmail.com> <1214399343.11688.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <48627745.90904@redhat.com> <1214413738.14225.115.camel@weaponx> <4862812F.8040505@redhat.com> <20080625193744.fbeaf31f.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <48628311.5000205@redhat.com> <20080625202550.4c6848d3.bugs.michael@gmx.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, Michael Schwendt wrote: > This list is really funny. Have we reached the time in the show yet where we all write down names on a piece of paper and then vote someone off the Board? Too bad I gave up my immunity necklace to pfrields. --Max From bugs.michael at gmx.net Wed Jun 25 18:44:18 2008 From: bugs.michael at gmx.net (Michael Schwendt) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 20:44:18 +0200 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <1214414441.11688.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <1214365511.3656.156.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806242052o6d174395kf9b69670c7b48e25@mail.gmail.com> <1214367821.3656.186.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214370983.3656.216.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806250623g62d05498p6870cd112814873f@mail.gmail.com> <1214405286.3656.324.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214407195.6554.11.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214414441.11688.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20080625204418.0483a802.bugs.michael@gmx.net> On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 13:20:41 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Wed, 2008-06-25 at 17:19 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > > > > In this vote, my criteria has been (in decreasing importance): > > * Not being @RH, because I wanted to see the community strengthened in > > this already @RH-predominated FPB and therefore don't see much reason > > into adding more @RHs. > > Do you feel that every Red Hat employee is the same person, and that we > all have the same opinions and ideals? Is our getting a paycheck from > Red Hat somehow make us less interested in seeing Fedora be the greater > good for the greater community? Is there no way to get past this > prejudice ? At this point I could only shake my head in disbelief. "Prejudice"??? No, certainly not. People like Ralf are long enough part of the community to vote based on personal experience. I'm close to being convinced that it is not language barriers that cause misunderstandings in discussions like this. What is it then? It's a completely different line of thinking coupled with frayed nerves. From bugs.michael at gmx.net Wed Jun 25 18:48:52 2008 From: bugs.michael at gmx.net (Michael Schwendt) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 20:48:52 +0200 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <48615F05.8030608@leemhuis.info> <1214354700.8545.23.camel@rosebud> <604aa7910806241751i6ebe0ffbq9acf4161d5a1305c@mail.gmail.com> <1214399343.11688.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <48627745.90904@redhat.com> <1214413738.14225.115.camel@weaponx> <4862812F.8040505@redhat.com> <20080625193744.fbeaf31f.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <48628311.5000205@redhat.com> <20080625202550.4c6848d3.bugs.michael@gmx.net> Message-ID: <20080625204852.e43feb40.bugs.michael@gmx.net> On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 14:34:46 -0400 (EDT), Max Spevack wrote: > On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, Michael Schwendt wrote: > > > This list is really funny. > > Have we reached the time in the show yet where we all write down names > on a piece of paper and then vote someone off the Board? > > Too bad I gave up my immunity necklace to pfrields. Learn how to cast spells which have the same effect. From caillon at redhat.com Wed Jun 25 19:02:10 2008 From: caillon at redhat.com (Christopher Aillon) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 15:02:10 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <1214417815.11688.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <48615F05.8030608@leemhuis.info> <1214354700.8545.23.camel@rosebud> <604aa7910806241751i6ebe0ffbq9acf4161d5a1305c@mail.gmail.com> <1214399343.11688.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <48627745.90904@redhat.com> <48628601.8000105@math.unl.edu> <48628909.1090904@redhat.com> <1214417815.11688.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <48629632.3080708@redhat.com> Jesse Keating wrote: > There is a by-weekly call between various Red Hat (RHEL) > engineering/product managers and various Fedora resources within Red > Hat. This call is to keep everybody up to speed on what's going on and > the thoughts of the two groups. No actual decisions are made there, > information is gathered for other decision making meetings. Which helps, but getting explanations and being in the trenches are two different things. From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 19:04:42 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 11:04:42 -0800 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <80d7e4090806242052o6d174395kf9b69670c7b48e25@mail.gmail.com> <1214367821.3656.186.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214370983.3656.216.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806250623g62d05498p6870cd112814873f@mail.gmail.com> <1214404686.11688.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910806251044g1bb35c69w3ac6a82a729b7d3a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910806251204q3ae4ae52ua17bf7b619470eb7@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 10:29 AM, inode0 wrote: > We can't hold your feet to the fire if you won't tell us what you do. :) Actually you can and as a community you must! If there are issues that you feel are not being addressed by any existing group... you bring them to the board.. and we figure out how to address the issue. We might task you with creating a policy draft, we might take the issue to an existing group and bully them into dealing with it.. or we might stand up a whole new community group to find consensus and do the necessary work. But we do all of that at the urging of community members. If people are not bringing issues forward.. then we have to assume things are working smoothly and there is absolutely no reason for us to meddle. The mandate of the Board is very general....we are the fixers. If shit breaks down we make an effort to fix it. But if people aren't telling us its broken, we don't do squat as the Board. We as individual maybe doing a lot as project leaders to do new things, but as the Board we are here to be responsive. We endeavor to stand up all the day-to-day project work as subgroups of community members who take ownership of that space. We support active community members in deed and thought and word, and resolve conflicts when there is a need. We act as a firebreak on legal shitstorms so that the project doesn't dissolve under the weight of legal liability. Every bit of that is important, and every bit of that are things which we can't easily take personal credit for as sitting Board members.... because its not about the personal credit. This sort of work is vitally important to the health of a large project. The ability to be responsive to problems and get them solved. It has nothing to do with whatever sort of big ideas you come in with as a candidate on new things to do. It doesn't matter what you helped resolve last year either. What matters is growing an understanding of what the current frustrations are in the community, getting people to talk through them, and then empowering someone to deal with it. If community members are not bringing issues forward, then the community is not doing its part. The Board is a construct meant to be responsive to project needs. if those needs are not brought forward, then basically the best candidate ends up being people with certified mind-reading abilities. Sitting on your hands, expecting candidates to know what you are looking for is quite frankly pathetic. Challenge them, challenge the sitting board, by putting issues forward and explaining your frustrations in a timely manner. Ask the candidates pointedly what they think about those issues. Don't evaluate what issues candidates think are important...evaluate what a candidate thinks about the issues which are important to you as the community. Bring those issues to the table, and demand the Board and the Board candidates talk about them. -jef From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 19:13:06 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 11:13:06 -0800 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <20080625204418.0483a802.bugs.michael@gmx.net> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <1214367821.3656.186.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214370983.3656.216.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806250623g62d05498p6870cd112814873f@mail.gmail.com> <1214405286.3656.324.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214407195.6554.11.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214414441.11688.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20080625204418.0483a802.bugs.michael@gmx.net> Message-ID: <604aa7910806251213t456c9a48m95f97037ac2ee0a7@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 10:44 AM, Michael Schwendt wrote: > I'm close to being convinced that it is not language barriers that cause > misunderstandings in discussions like this. What is it then? It's a > completely different line of thinking coupled with frayed nerves. I have to agree. A find deeply disturbing similarities in how some list conversations go, with how some 'discussions' with my wife go. Completely different line of thinking and frayed nerves is exactly the root cause of unlooked for hostility in my real life analogy. Except, I don't have the aid of body language to read to help diagnose when to make an adjustment in what I'm saying in a list conversation before things go to far and the conversation is no longer constructive. And we have the added complication of having more than 2 people in a conversation, multiplying the possible ways things can be misinterpreted. -jef From jkeating at redhat.com Wed Jun 25 19:14:53 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 15:14:53 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <20080625204418.0483a802.bugs.michael@gmx.net> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <1214365511.3656.156.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806242052o6d174395kf9b69670c7b48e25@mail.gmail.com> <1214367821.3656.186.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214370983.3656.216.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806250623g62d05498p6870cd112814873f@mail.gmail.com> <1214405286.3656.324.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214407195.6554.11.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214414441.11688.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20080625204418.0483a802.bugs.michael@gmx.net> Message-ID: <1214421293.11688.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2008-06-25 at 20:44 +0200, Michael Schwendt wrote: > On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 13:20:41 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > > > On Wed, 2008-06-25 at 17:19 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > > > > > > In this vote, my criteria has been (in decreasing importance): > > > * Not being @RH, because I wanted to see the community strengthened in > > > this already @RH-predominated FPB and therefore don't see much reason > > > into adding more @RHs. > > > > Do you feel that every Red Hat employee is the same person, and that we > > all have the same opinions and ideals? Is our getting a paycheck from > > Red Hat somehow make us less interested in seeing Fedora be the greater > > good for the greater community? Is there no way to get past this > > prejudice ? > > At this point I could only shake my head in disbelief. > "Prejudice"??? No, certainly not. People like Ralf are long enough > part of the community to vote based on personal experience. > > I'm close to being convinced that it is not language barriers that cause > misunderstandings in discussions like this. What is it then? It's a > completely different line of thinking coupled with frayed nerves. So if it isn't a language thing... All that I can see here is a reluctance to vote for any person who may happen to work for Red Hat, regardless of group or duty. The conclusion I jump to is that by not wanting to vote for these people, they are somehow less qualified for the job, or less likely to do a good job than somebody else. It seems that the reasons given aren't specific to the individual, just the generic label of being a Red Hat employee. That's what I take offense to, or at least sadness to. I honestly hoped that people would be voting due to individual concerns rather than paycheck signers. Did I get voted in because I work for Red Hat? I certainly hope not, but at the same time I would certainly hope that somebody else /wouldn't/ get voted in next time just because they /do/ work for Red Hat. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From gdk at redhat.com Wed Jun 25 19:21:36 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 15:21:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <1214407195.6554.11.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <1214365511.3656.156.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806242052o6d174395kf9b69670c7b48e25@mail.gmail.com> <1214367821.3656.186.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214370983.3656.216.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806250623g62d05498p6870cd112814873f@mail.gmail.com> <1214405286.3656.324.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214407195.6554.11.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, Ralf Corsepius wrote: >> I'm curious Ralf, can you name 3 things that a candidate might have that >> match your criteria? > > In this vote, my criteria has been (in decreasing importance): > > * Not being @RH, because I wanted to see the community strengthened in > this already @RH-predominated FPB and therefore don't see much reason > into adding more @RHs. Funny, this was my primary criteria as well -- yet when I cite this, this criteria is dismissed as "playing a game". That's a bit frustrating to me. > * Exclude people of whom I had learned not to be trustworthy. > * People having a measurable record as Fedora contributor. > * The candidates' interests overlapping with my personal interests. So from these criteria, you could find no candidates that were worth your vote. Which begs three questions: 1. Is there a potential candidate in the whole world of Fedora contributors who would have met these criteria? 2. If so, did you encourage them to run? 3. If not, why not? --g From inode0 at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 19:34:10 2008 From: inode0 at gmail.com (inode0) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 14:34:10 -0500 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <604aa7910806251204q3ae4ae52ua17bf7b619470eb7@mail.gmail.com> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <1214367821.3656.186.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214370983.3656.216.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806250623g62d05498p6870cd112814873f@mail.gmail.com> <1214404686.11688.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910806251044g1bb35c69w3ac6a82a729b7d3a@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910806251204q3ae4ae52ua17bf7b619470eb7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 2:04 PM, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 10:29 AM, inode0 wrote: >> We can't hold your feet to the fire if you won't tell us what you do. :) > > Actually you can and as a community you must! > > If there are issues that you feel are not being addressed by any > existing group... you bring them to the board.. and we figure out how > to address the issue. We might task you with creating a policy draft, > we might take the issue to an existing group and bully them into > dealing with it.. or we might stand up a whole new community group to > find consensus and do the necessary work. But we do all of that at > the urging of community members. If people are not bringing issues > forward.. then we have to assume things are working smoothly and there > is absolutely no reason for us to meddle. We keep going from the specific to the general. I have been discussing one specific issue, fedora board elections. I have asked specific questions about how the Fedora community is expected to arrive at a vote within the current system. I am not getting any suggestions that I don't perceive to be the equivalent of tossing darts at the phonebook. > ... snip ... > If community members are not bringing issues forward, then the > community is not doing its part. The Board is a construct meant to be > responsive to project needs. if those needs are not brought forward, > then basically the best candidate ends up being people with certified > mind-reading abilities. Sitting on your hands, expecting candidates > to know what you are looking for is quite frankly pathetic. Challenge > them, challenge the sitting board, by putting issues forward and > explaining your frustrations in a timely manner. Ask the candidates > pointedly what they think about those issues. Don't evaluate what > issues candidates think are important...evaluate what a candidate > thinks about the issues which are important to you as the community. > Bring those issues to the table, and demand the Board and the Board > candidates talk about them. So you expect each voter to have a lengthy chat with 5, 10, 20 candidates in a 10 day voting period. How do you see that working? I am hearing a nice explanation of the general parameters governing what the board does and how the Fedora community can interact with the board. That is all great information. I don't see how that is relevant in the limited context of board elections. John From stickster at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 19:39:03 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 19:39:03 +0000 Subject: Final Board appointment Message-ID: <1214422743.3495.133.camel@victoria> Chris Tyler has been selected to fill the final seat on the Fedora Project Board. Many of you may know Chris from his "Fedora Daily Package" website, or his work at Seneca College on open source curricula, or as author of O'Reilly's "Fedora Linux" book. His background in enabling users; developing ways to cultivate contributors in academia; and as a teacher, writer, and collaborator makes him an exceptional choice for this seat. The new Board will be holding a public IRC chat meeting next week, date and time TBA shortly, as we settle on a weekly schedule for our meetings that will work for all the members. -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From bugs.michael at gmx.net Wed Jun 25 19:49:10 2008 From: bugs.michael at gmx.net (Michael Schwendt) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 21:49:10 +0200 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <1214421293.11688.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <1214365511.3656.156.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806242052o6d174395kf9b69670c7b48e25@mail.gmail.com> <1214367821.3656.186.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214370983.3656.216.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806250623g62d05498p6870cd112814873f@mail.gmail.com> <1214405286.3656.324.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214407195.6554.11.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214414441.11688.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20080625204418.0483a802.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <1214421293.11688.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20080625214910.b1425d4f.bugs.michael@gmx.net> On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 15:14:53 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > > I'm close to being convinced that it is not language barriers that cause > > misunderstandings in discussions like this. What is it then? It's a > > completely different line of thinking coupled with frayed nerves. > > So if it isn't a language thing... > > All that I can see here is a reluctance to vote for any person who may > happen to work for Red Hat, regardless of group or duty. Rather than "reluctance", I would call it "personal preference" paired with experience. Is it not forbidden to vote for non-RH nominees only. I find it completely plausible that a community volunteer wants to take the chance at filling community seats with non-RH community reps and giving them a voice. With the disclaimer in front that I am not Ralf's spokes-person, ;) what makes you think that this time Ralf did not have any specific reason not to vote for some [or any] of the RH candidates? > The conclusion > I jump to is that by not wanting to vote for these people, they are > somehow less qualified for the job, or less likely to do a good job than > somebody else. It seems that the reasons given aren't specific to the > individual, just the generic label of being a Red Hat employee. That's > what I take offense to, or at least sadness to. That's too pessimistic. You could still try to persuade such voters with doing a brilliant work as a FPB member, who shares common interests with them. > I honestly hoped that people would be voting due to individual concerns > rather than paycheck signers. Did I get voted in because I work for Red > Hat? I certainly hope not, but at the same time I would certainly hope > that somebody else /wouldn't/ get voted in next time just because > they /do/ work for Red Hat. We don't know who voted. We don't know anything about the voter distribution. How many first-time voters? How many have taken part in past elections and have drawn conclusions? From jkeating at redhat.com Wed Jun 25 19:58:02 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 15:58:02 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <20080625214910.b1425d4f.bugs.michael@gmx.net> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <1214365511.3656.156.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806242052o6d174395kf9b69670c7b48e25@mail.gmail.com> <1214367821.3656.186.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214370983.3656.216.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806250623g62d05498p6870cd112814873f@mail.gmail.com> <1214405286.3656.324.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214407195.6554.11.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214414441.11688.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20080625204418.0483a802.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <1214421293.11688.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20080625214910.b1425d4f.bugs.michael@gmx.net> Message-ID: <1214423882.11688.48.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2008-06-25 at 21:49 +0200, Michael Schwendt wrote: > > With the disclaimer in front that I am not Ralf's spokes-person, ;) what > makes you think that this time Ralf did not have any specific reason not > to vote for some [or any] of the RH candidates? What makes me think that is the statement he made, where he didn't vote for any RH people, simply because they were RH people. No other critera given, especially not specifics as to why he would avoid the individuals who happened to be Red Hat employees. I can only go by what he said, and if I'm drawing the wrong conclusion, so be it, and I'll be happy. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 20:00:02 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:00:02 -0800 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <1214370983.3656.216.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806250623g62d05498p6870cd112814873f@mail.gmail.com> <1214404686.11688.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910806251044g1bb35c69w3ac6a82a729b7d3a@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910806251204q3ae4ae52ua17bf7b619470eb7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910806251300j7041d224k757d958c1b5787e5@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 11:34 AM, inode0 wrote: > So you expect each voter to have a lengthy chat with 5, 10, 20 > candidates in a 10 day voting period. How do you see that working? No i dont expect each individual to have a length chat. But I expect some effort of a group of people to put important issues on the map. Should I as a Board member tell this community how to select issues to bring forward for discussion? I have a suggestions, but I need people in the community to value he need for direct community involvement. As a prelude to this very moment, I asked if our current voting system could handle some sort of ranked q/a concept, that let community members ask questions.. and then let other community members rank those questions up and down... with the end result being a top 10 set of questions that the community as a whole felt strongly about asking of each and every candidate. The response...can't do it yet. But I was pointed to this: http://code.google.com/p/pcloadletter/ as an existing example on how to generate a list of community ranked questions. And then I was pointed to http://trac-hacks.org/wiki/VotePlugin as something we co plugin into our existing trac instance to mimic what the pcloadletter people do to rank questions. If you were given a facility through which you could rank questions and issues submitted by other community members would you use it? Would you submit questions into the que to be ranked? Would you, rank other submissions? Would you use this to generate a list of issues and questions to ask candidates to respond to during the next election? Would you use it to generate questions to ask the current Board to respond to during its public meetings? -jef From matt at domsch.com Wed Jun 25 20:33:52 2008 From: matt at domsch.com (Matt Domsch) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 15:33:52 -0500 Subject: Final Board appointment In-Reply-To: <1214422743.3495.133.camel@victoria> References: <1214422743.3495.133.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <20080625203352.GB14021@domsch.com> On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 07:39:03PM +0000, Paul W. Frields wrote: > Chris Tyler has been selected to fill the final seat on the Fedora > Project Board. Many of you may know Chris from his "Fedora Daily > Package" website, or his work at Seneca College on open source > curricula, or as author of O'Reilly's "Fedora Linux" book. > > His background in enabling users; developing ways to cultivate > contributors in academia; and as a teacher, writer, and collaborator > makes him an exceptional choice for this seat. Welcome and congratulations to Chris, and thank you for contributing your time and leadership to further the goals of Fedora. -Matt From bugs.michael at gmx.net Wed Jun 25 20:52:11 2008 From: bugs.michael at gmx.net (Michael Schwendt) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 22:52:11 +0200 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <1214365511.3656.156.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806242052o6d174395kf9b69670c7b48e25@mail.gmail.com> <1214367821.3656.186.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214370983.3656.216.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806250623g62d05498p6870cd112814873f@mail.gmail.com> <1214405286.3656.324.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214407195.6554.11.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> Message-ID: <20080625225211.4fa47101.bugs.michael@gmx.net> On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 15:21:36 -0400 (EDT), Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > > >> I'm curious Ralf, can you name 3 things that a candidate might have that > >> match your criteria? > > > > In this vote, my criteria has been (in decreasing importance): > > > > * Not being @RH, because I wanted to see the community strengthened in > > this already @RH-predominated FPB and therefore don't see much reason > > into adding more @RHs. > > Funny, this was my primary criteria as well -- yet when I cite this, this > criteria is dismissed as "playing a game". That's a bit frustrating to > me. Then don't rip the citation out of its context. ;) Rest assured, there's nothing wrong with voting like that. From jmbabich at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 21:02:48 2008 From: jmbabich at gmail.com (John Babich) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 00:02:48 +0300 Subject: Final Board appointment In-Reply-To: <20080625203352.GB14021@domsch.com> References: <1214422743.3495.133.camel@victoria> <20080625203352.GB14021@domsch.com> Message-ID: <9d2c731f0806251402y6c22b19cs8f85ff8b0cd793c5@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 11:33 PM, Matt Domsch wrote: > On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 07:39:03PM +0000, Paul W. Frields wrote: >> Chris Tyler has been selected to fill the final seat on the Fedora >> Project Board. Many of you may know Chris from his "Fedora Daily >> Package" website, or his work at Seneca College on open source >> curricula, or as author of O'Reilly's "Fedora Linux" book. >> >> His background in enabling users; developing ways to cultivate >> contributors in academia; and as a teacher, writer, and collaborator >> makes him an exceptional choice for this seat. > > Welcome and congratulations to Chris, and thank you for contributing > your time and leadership to further the goals of Fedora. > Excellent choice! Congratulations, Chris! Best Regards, John Babich Volunteer, Fedora Project From jkeating at redhat.com Wed Jun 25 21:08:31 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 17:08:31 -0400 Subject: Final Board appointment In-Reply-To: <1214422743.3495.133.camel@victoria> References: <1214422743.3495.133.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <1214428111.11688.50.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2008-06-25 at 19:39 +0000, Paul W. Frields wrote: > Chris Tyler has been selected to fill the final seat on the Fedora > Project Board. Welcome Chris! I hope we get to know each other better in the near future. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed Jun 25 21:12:28 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 13:12:28 -0800 Subject: Final Board appointment In-Reply-To: <9d2c731f0806251402y6c22b19cs8f85ff8b0cd793c5@mail.gmail.com> References: <1214422743.3495.133.camel@victoria> <20080625203352.GB14021@domsch.com> <9d2c731f0806251402y6c22b19cs8f85ff8b0cd793c5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910806251412r36981364va3ebaf6545586869@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 1:02 PM, John Babich wrote: > Excellent choice! Congratulations, Chris! We've got so many different education related ideas floating around, that it will be extremely helpful to have someone on the board who can run point and bring the area into focus into a cohesive overarching vision, both inwardly and outwardly. We've a real need to get a handle on contributor training in a very wide sense. Not just how to train people for our own immediate needs (and we do need to do that), but also how open source is used in traditional classroom situations so people gain experience with the codebase, as well as how to teach the methodology and best practices of open source development I'm hoping Chris can be that person. Not to put pressure on him or anything, but its his ball to drop, his vase to shatter, his dogteam to lead onto a thin sheet of ice and then plunge into the icy river below...etc..etc. -jef From kwade at redhat.com Wed Jun 25 21:36:29 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 14:36:29 -0700 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <1214399343.11688.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <20080624213942.9ee8cc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <48615F05.8030608@leemhuis.info> <1214354700.8545.23.camel@rosebud> <604aa7910806241751i6ebe0ffbq9acf4161d5a1305c@mail.gmail.com> <1214399343.11688.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1214429789.3207.262.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Wed, 2008-06-25 at 09:09 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > Trying to bias it on ones employment just becomes too difficult, > especially given the case that one could be a Red Hat employee in a > completely different part of the organization, yet still spend one's > free time on Fedora. This describes me until last year. Last year was the first time that I had Fedora as part of my official job duties, which is about four years after I started contributing my personal time to the project. Even then, my average week-over-week was about 12% spent on official Fedora duties. All the rest I wrote off against my personal time. In fact, I often use myself as a case study when extolling the virtues of working in Fedora outside of one's job duties. People inside and outside of the company have moved to Fedora being all or part of their job duties. In fact, we promote that idea in EPEL: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/EPEL/PackageMaintainer/GenericJobDescription - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Sr. Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed Jun 25 21:42:20 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 14:42:20 -0700 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <80d7e4090806241241u59cedafav1ed2ccfc9bef50f9@mail.gmail.com> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241104y7759bb59jcb5147139d8f60b0@mail.gmail.com> <1214331353.14225.46.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241241u59cedafav1ed2ccfc9bef50f9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1214430140.3207.269.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 13:41 -0600, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > I can agree with this also. Where I was raised, a person who nominated > themselves was the worst person to run something. I want to pull this out for discussion. It seems like there is a spectrum here, rather than one or two set ways of being. For example, you and John have concerns about self-nomination being abhorrent to people. In cultures where that is more normal, how many people just go ask someone to nominate them? Is that taboo as well? On one end are people who just won't put themselves forward as leaders, despite their obvious qualities. On the other end are people who will always put themselves forward as leaders, regardless of their qualities. In Fedora, we have a huge mix of cultures, and yes, you are going to find that some specific cultures typically do not put themselves forward, out of modesty, etc. Then the people from that culture who do are either as you say (least trustworthy) or they people who have adapted the most to another culture that dominates the election methodology. But yet, in places known for their modesty, be they South Carolina or Japan, there are people who run for office, are elected, and do either a good, bad, or so-so job. How do we account for all of that? FWIW, I'm deeply concerned that our Fedora way of doing democracy is very different than what other countries need. I've no idea if we can do one overarching governance system that appeals to all cultural backgrounds. Hopefully, the process can be localized in terms of culturen where people interact more closely, such as the subProject/SIG level. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Sr. Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From fugolini at fedoraproject.org Wed Jun 25 20:54:54 2008 From: fugolini at fedoraproject.org (Francesco Ugolini) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 22:54:54 +0200 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> Message-ID: 2008/6/24 Paul W. Frields : > The results of the Fedora Project Board elections are in: Tom Callaway, > Jesse Keating and Seth Vidal have been elected to full two-release > terms, and Jef Spaleta is re-elected to a one-release term. > > Red Hat will announce its final appointment to the Board within the next > couple of days, completing this cycle. > > -- > Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ > gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 > http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ > irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board > > Congratulation with the winner and all the other candidates! Regards Francesco Ugolini From kwade at redhat.com Wed Jun 25 22:47:07 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 15:47:07 -0700 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <20080625204418.0483a802.bugs.michael@gmx.net> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <1214365511.3656.156.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806242052o6d174395kf9b69670c7b48e25@mail.gmail.com> <1214367821.3656.186.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214370983.3656.216.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806250623g62d05498p6870cd112814873f@mail.gmail.com> <1214405286.3656.324.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214407195.6554.11.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214414441.11688.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20080625204418.0483a802.bugs.michael@gmx.net> Message-ID: <1214434027.3207.294.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Wed, 2008-06-25 at 20:44 +0200, Michael Schwendt wrote: > On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 13:20:41 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > > > On Wed, 2008-06-25 at 17:19 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > > > > > > In this vote, my criteria has been (in decreasing importance): > > > * Not being @RH, because I wanted to see the community strengthened in > > > this already @RH-predominated FPB and therefore don't see much reason > > > into adding more @RHs. > > > > Do you feel that every Red Hat employee is the same person, and that we > > all have the same opinions and ideals? Is our getting a paycheck from > > Red Hat somehow make us less interested in seeing Fedora be the greater > > good for the greater community? Is there no way to get past this > > prejudice ? > > At this point I could only shake my head in disbelief. > "Prejudice"??? No, certainly not. People like Ralf are long enough > part of the community to vote based on personal experience. Sounds exactly like the definition of prejudice. He has prejudged the worthiness of a candidate based on employer. Doesn't matter how much personal experience he has. > I'm close to being convinced that it is not language barriers that cause > misunderstandings in discussions like this. What is it then? It's a > completely different line of thinking coupled with frayed nerves. Perhaps you are right. I react when I detect unwarranted prejudice against Red Hat -- over the years, there have been HUGE negative reaction to Red Hat in many, many, many community circles. In my experience, greater negative reaction than any other single entity outside of RMS. However, my overwhelming experience is different. Experience as someone who came from outside-with-an-attitude-against-Red Hat (ask any ex-VA Linux person what we thought about Red Hat.) Experience talking with hundreds who made that transition from competitor/customer/community to employee over the last six+ years I've been @redhat.com. None say, "Boy, this place really is a blood sucking leach on the community." All say, "Wow, the prejudice against Red Hat is often unwarranted." As long as this knee-jerk prejudice is shown in debates, there will be knee-jerk responses. That cycle will devolve the discussion along predictable lines. - Karsten, jerk! -- Karsten Wade, Sr. Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From bugs.michael at gmx.net Wed Jun 25 23:33:25 2008 From: bugs.michael at gmx.net (Michael Schwendt) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 01:33:25 +0200 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <1214434027.3207.294.camel@calliope.phig.org> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <1214365511.3656.156.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806242052o6d174395kf9b69670c7b48e25@mail.gmail.com> <1214367821.3656.186.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214370983.3656.216.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806250623g62d05498p6870cd112814873f@mail.gmail.com> <1214405286.3656.324.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214407195.6554.11.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214414441.11688.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20080625204418.0483a802.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <1214434027.3207.294.camel@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <20080626013325.1256fc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 15:47:07 -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > > On Wed, 2008-06-25 at 20:44 +0200, Michael Schwendt wrote: > > On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 13:20:41 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > > > > > On Wed, 2008-06-25 at 17:19 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > > > > > > > > In this vote, my criteria has been (in decreasing importance): > > > > * Not being @RH, because I wanted to see the community strengthened in > > > > this already @RH-predominated FPB and therefore don't see much reason > > > > into adding more @RHs. > > > > > > Do you feel that every Red Hat employee is the same person, and that we > > > all have the same opinions and ideals? Is our getting a paycheck from > > > Red Hat somehow make us less interested in seeing Fedora be the greater > > > good for the greater community? Is there no way to get past this > > > prejudice ? > > > > At this point I could only shake my head in disbelief. > > "Prejudice"??? No, certainly not. People like Ralf are long enough > > part of the community to vote based on personal experience. > > Sounds exactly like the definition of prejudice. He has prejudged the > worthiness of a candidate based on employer. Wrong. Wrong, because you don't take into account that there were only three well-known RH employees to choose from. They are no newcomers. One can judge about them based on their previous activity. Added on top of the judgement, there is the personal preference to give non-RH reps a voice, since RH occupies several non-elected seats in the board already. Don't twist the words. The quote is at the top. The goal is to strengthen the community, not to fight Red Hat employees. It can be called fairness. Or tactical voting, as one could fill only four seats and could not give all eight a chance. One simply had to prefer four out of eight. > Doesn't matter how much personal experience he has. Sure it does, especially if it's personal experience in knowing particular persons already. [here I don't know whether *you* have been in contact with Ralf before or whether you only jump on the band-wagon] > As long as this knee-jerk prejudice is shown in debates, there will be > knee-jerk responses. Ask Shadowman and jump over your shadow, man. From jkeating at redhat.com Thu Jun 26 00:23:38 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 20:23:38 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <20080626013325.1256fc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <1214365511.3656.156.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806242052o6d174395kf9b69670c7b48e25@mail.gmail.com> <1214367821.3656.186.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214370983.3656.216.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806250623g62d05498p6870cd112814873f@mail.gmail.com> <1214405286.3656.324.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214407195.6554.11.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214414441.11688.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20080625204418.0483a802.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <1214434027.3207.294.camel@calliope.phig.org> <20080626013325.1256fc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> Message-ID: <1214439818.11688.65.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2008-06-26 at 01:33 +0200, Michael Schwendt wrote: > Added on top of the judgement, there is the personal preference to give > non-RH reps a voice, since RH occupies several non-elected seats in the > board already. Don't twist the words. The quote is at the top. The goal > is to strengthen the community, not to fight Red Hat employees. At what point is it not possible for Red Hat employees to be part of the community you wish to strengthen? -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From rc040203 at freenet.de Thu Jun 26 04:31:11 2008 From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 06:31:11 +0200 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <1214365511.3656.156.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806242052o6d174395kf9b69670c7b48e25@mail.gmail.com> <1214367821.3656.186.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214370983.3656.216.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806250623g62d05498p6870cd112814873f@mail.gmail.com> <1214405286.3656.324.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214407195.6554.11.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> Message-ID: <1214454671.6554.98.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> On Wed, 2008-06-25 at 15:21 -0400, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > > >> I'm curious Ralf, can you name 3 things that a candidate might have that > >> match your criteria? > > > > In this vote, my criteria has been (in decreasing importance): > > > > * Not being @RH, because I wanted to see the community strengthened in > > this already @RH-predominated FPB and therefore don't see much reason > > into adding more @RHs. > > Funny, this was my primary criteria as well -- yet when I cite this, this > criteria is dismissed as "playing a game". That's a bit frustrating to > me. > > > * Exclude people of whom I had learned not to be trustworthy. > > * People having a measurable record as Fedora contributor. > > * The candidates' interests overlapping with my personal interests. > > So from these criteria, you could find no candidates that were worth your > vote. Correct! But may-be I haven't been clear enough: These criteria had been more a ranking system (soft criteria) but "strict" criteria. That said, I am actually distinguishing folks, who have been put onto RH's payrole after election to allow them working on Fedora from folks who work on Fedora on "behalf of RH" and @RH-folks whom I have learned to be "open-minded" from those I learned to be "RH stateholders"/"RH-brain-washed" (Pardon, should this working hurt anyone). Otherwise I would not have been able to vote at all and would have had to abstains. As I already previously wrote, I resorted to voting for those I considered to be the "least evil" - This included voting for @RH's. > Which begs three questions: > > 1. Is there a potential candidate in the whole world of Fedora > contributors who would have met these criteria? Yes, several. > 2. If so, did you encourage them to run? No. > 3. If not, why not? Primarily 2 reasons: 1) Because FPB's role/job/position in Fedora is not clear to me. RH-inaugurated junta to suppress/control Fedora? 2nd chamber ("House of Lords") of a parliamentary system? "supervisory board" to supervise the "management board/board of directors" (== FESCO)? RH's representation in Fedora? 2) Because I didn't have time to (Yes, sounds like a weak excuse, but real life sometimes is more trivial than you may want it to be) Ralf From gafton at gafton.net Thu Jun 26 06:55:46 2008 From: gafton at gafton.net (Cristian Gafton) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 02:55:46 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806241026q71dbac70q681b5ff1e829bd23@mail.gmail.com> <1214330801.14225.38.camel@weaponx> Message-ID: <1214463346.31651.34.camel@alienpad.rpath.com> On Tue, 2008-06-24 at 14:21 -0400, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > On Tue, 24 Jun 2008, Josh Boyer wrote: > > > Just assume we haven't done an appropriate job. With a 6% voter > > turnout, we have failed regardless. > > Really? Why? > > Why is a 6% turnout necessarily a failure? > > IMHO, a properly functioning governance body *should* be so effective that > no one cares much either way when it comes time to replace the membership. > >From my perspective, low turnout means low dissatisfaction. You should get awarded a Pulitzer for spin right there. "low turnout" == "low dissatisfaction"?! Where the heck have you seen that happen in real life? Because everywhere else I read about low turnouts in elections, they were explained by low interest, apathy, dissatisfaction with the candidates, lack of understanding of how it affects people. Never, ever, have I seen people say "I'm too happy to bother voting". First point I'd like to comment: This has been a long thread (and an interesting read at that). There were some leaders that rose up from the community - as small and flawed as it might be - and some of those leaders got hired by Red Hat. Now they've been elected to the Board and Red Hat catches flak for it because their latest email address is @redhat.com?! Basic response would be "get over it" or "you too can apply for a job at Red Hat and be just like those guys". Related - Voting for "community guys" "on principle". That is bullshit. You vote for the guy that is most likely to represent your line of thought on issues that matter to you. Linux, Red Hat, and Fedora have been built on the principles of meritocracy. Politics have nothing to do with it. Smart guys in the community will continue to be hired by Red Hat as soon as they prove themselves worthy. It is a fact of life - @redhat.com email addresses will dominate the list. A place on the Board should be earned - there is no "wrong" to correct here with an affirmative-action-wannabe. Second: The formalized goals, platform, balancing the community crap brings big style politics into the small world of Fedora community. And just as in the big time politics, look at what it does to elections. It should be simpler than that. Can somebody express themselves clearly in public, without offering bits of clarifications in a long 200-message thread? If you could not observe, ask your beef directly. Heck, make every candidate hold a few hours of interviewing on irc to answer questions. Don't take this the wrong way, but the goals and platforms put forth in this elections were pathetic. No wonder, when most were trying to say "I'll do more of the same" in a more buzzword-compliant way. Third: Getting over the low probability of bad things happening, does the Fedora community has the strength to survive if Red Hat pulls out of its commitments? The answer is simple - no. Is there enough leadership outside @redhat.com now to make it work if something like that were to happen tomorrow? No. ointing this without a concrete proposal to solve it doesn't help, and getting defensive about it doesn't help either. "We're not there yet" is the common line. The more interesting mental exercise here is to guess how many of the people @redhat.com would continue to keep their @redhat.com email address instead of switching to @fedoraproject.org were Red Hat to drop Fedora. Those guys that would make the switch, if they exist, can fill in the future community leadership roles. But this is an academic exercise, and a very pointless one at that, since food still costs money. Well, that about sums up my feelings about the hour+ I spent reading the back and forths. Cristian -- Cristian Gafton From fugolini at fedoraproject.org Thu Jun 26 08:11:11 2008 From: fugolini at fedoraproject.org (Francesco Ugolini) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 10:11:11 +0200 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <1214463346.31651.34.camel@alienpad.rpath.com> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240918t4223ee7dsff2e09fd1d6c1d0c@mail.gmail.com> <1214324629.14225.11.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <604aa7910806241026q71dbac70q681b5ff1e829bd23@mail.gmail.com> <1214330801.14225.38.camel@weaponx> <1214463346.31651.34.camel@alienpad.rpath.com> Message-ID: I don't see such problem. Personally i want a Board who works, indipendently if it's composed by all RH emplyeers or few community members. I think people voted such rapresentatives for specific reasons (everyone know them, many of them working only for fedora and many others have all the tools to provide a constant service), personally i trust this new board, doesn't matter their provenance. I'm not so good with words but i hope i gave clearly my opinion. I'm sure that now is important to have a working board :) Regards Francesco Ugolini From bugs.michael at gmx.net Thu Jun 26 10:18:00 2008 From: bugs.michael at gmx.net (Michael Schwendt) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 12:18:00 +0200 Subject: Fedora Board election results In-Reply-To: <1214439818.11688.65.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1214307887.3825.16.camel@victoria> <604aa7910806240940n4c0b6effg9255ad2813bf831b@mail.gmail.com> <1214327524.14225.19.camel@weaponx> <80d7e4090806241021g1540d890nc55f538f9853ceaa@mail.gmail.com> <1214329962.14225.25.camel@weaponx> <1214365511.3656.156.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806242052o6d174395kf9b69670c7b48e25@mail.gmail.com> <1214367821.3656.186.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214370983.3656.216.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <80d7e4090806250623g62d05498p6870cd112814873f@mail.gmail.com> <1214405286.3656.324.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214407195.6554.11.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <1214414441.11688.23.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20080625204418.0483a802.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <1214434027.3207.294.camel@calliope.phig.org> <20080626013325.1256fc0c.bugs.michael@gmx.net> <1214439818.11688.65.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20080626121800.10165079.bugs.michael@gmx.net> On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 20:23:38 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > > Added on top of the judgement, there is the personal preference to give > > non-RH reps a voice, since RH occupies several non-elected seats in the > > board already. Don't twist the words. The quote is at the top. The goal > > is to strengthen the community, not to fight Red Hat employees. > > At what point is it not possible for Red Hat employees to be part of the > community you wish to strengthen? Can you rephrase that question, please? The "not" in there confuses me. Red Hat employees are part of the community. From Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net Thu Jun 26 14:54:23 2008 From: Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net (Axel Thimm) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 17:54:23 +0300 Subject: Fedora, Red Hat, and the community In-Reply-To: <1214398478.14225.106.camel@weaponx> References: <1214397505.14225.104.camel@weaponx> <7f692fec0806250545p1ff791e2p8aba869528f6b291@mail.gmail.com> <1214398478.14225.106.camel@weaponx> Message-ID: <20080626145423.GB26181@victor.nirvana> On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 08:54:38AM -0400, Josh Boyer wrote: > On Wed, 2008-06-25 at 14:45 +0200, Yaakov Nemoy wrote: > > On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 2:38 PM, Josh Boyer wrote: > > > The recent Board discussion highlights that despite efforts to the > > > contrary, there is still a Us vs. Them mentality in Fedora when it comes > > > to the community and Red Hat. Rather than write out a very long and > > > preachy email about why that shouldn't be, I'm going to take a different > > > approach. > That's my observation as well. But I wanted to give people an > opportunity to spell out specific items that bother them. I think that there will always be some supicious minds looking at a big company working with the community about whether the goals can be the same, or whether there are hidden agendas to exploit the community etc. So instead of trying to justify this I would make a forward attack and state that a big company profits from supporting community goals for the sake of the community itself. And the community profits from being exploited that way. Isn't this what Open Source is about? -- Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net From poelstra at redhat.com Sat Jun 28 15:14:29 2008 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 08:14:29 -0700 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2008-JUN-24 Message-ID: <48665555.2070009@redhat.com> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/Meetings/2008-06-24 == Roll Call == * Attendees: Harald Hoyer, Jesse Keating, Paul Frields, Steve Dickson, Chris Aillon, John Poelstra, Bill Nottingham, Matt Domsch, Jef Spaleta, Karsten Wade * Regrets: Seth Vidal, Spot Callaway, Dennis Gilmore == New Business == === New Board Members === * Welcome and Congratulations * Process for filling remaining Red Hat appointed seat ** Re-balancing board from a Red Hat perspective (which includes taking the community into perspective too). ** Decision to be made by end of the day 2008-06-25 ** Submit additional suggestions to Paul Frields by end of business today === FUDCon Boston === * Thoughts and take-aways for next time * Wondering if Red Hat Summit helped or hurt * We didn't have a lot to show the "drive-bys" from the Summit who came by the hackfest session * What about having a much larger booth as part of the exhibitors floor similar to LinuxTag? * Summit does provide the advantage of having more Red Hat people on hand * Really difficult for people to do two events at the same time * Surprised at number of first time people that came to FUDCon * Carry additional discussion items to fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com mailing list ** What could be a ''better'' FUDCon ? === Meeting Time & Date === * Confirm regular meeting time and date going forward * Take into account new members ** Figure out on mailing list--Paul Frields will set up matrix === Upcoming Milestones === * Alpha freeze on 2008-07-15 * Alpha public release on 2008-07-29 * Getting feature process going for Fedora 10 === Farewell === * Many thanks to departing board members Steve Dickson, Dennis Gilmore, and Chris Aillon for their guidance and support to Fedora * This is their last meeting == Followup to Previous Business == === Fedora Organizational Structure (2008-06-03) === * Joint meeting with Board and FESCo held on 2008-06-09 ** http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/Meetings/2008-06-09 ** Proposed roles: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Pfrields/Drafts/Roles * The board has not change its stance that FESCo owns the feature process * Lengthy discussion about the path forward * Board is waiting for detailed write-up from FESCo from meeting on 2008-06-12 * NEXT STEPS: *# Board to update wiki page describing its role *# Board agrees with FESCo's defined role as defined: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Extras/SteeringCommittee/Meeting-20080612 *# Board asks FESCo to update wiki page described === Codeina (2008-05-13) === * Need to restart discussion on fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com to get plans in place at the start of F10 * Chris Aillon to make contact with Bastien Nocera to find out what current plans are * RESOLUTION: ** waiting on bug 438225 to proceed ** this change will enable auto-provide for codec information ** For Fedora 10 removing Codeina and using the distribution's built-in mechanism to install packages (if 438255) is implemented ** For Fluendo to continue to provide codecs to Fedora they will need to provide them as packages in a yum repo ** This errs on the side of more "free-ish" software ** Revisit progress of Bug 438225 thirty days from now === Secondary Architectures === * Put forward by Bill Nottingham for 2008-06-10 agenda * ia64 is close to coming online and two issues need to be resolved to move forward: # Packages are signed with a fedora-ia64 specific key and the repository keys are hard coded in the fedora-release package as the main Fedora and Fedora beta keys. # The download baseurl (outside of the mirror lists, which are correctly handled) will be at secondary.fedoraproject.org (or whatever). Therefore they can not spin a release from Fedora packages. * RESOLUTION: No discussion. This is a technical issue to be resolved by FESCo (if necessary) and not the board. == Future Business (discuss at a future meeting) == * Next meet with be public IRC meeting with the board * Paul to send out announcement and coordinate IRC channels and moderator From fedora at leemhuis.info Sat Jun 28 16:44:39 2008 From: fedora at leemhuis.info (Thorsten Leemhuis) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 18:44:39 +0200 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2008-JUN-24 In-Reply-To: <48665555.2070009@redhat.com> References: <48665555.2070009@redhat.com> Message-ID: <48666A77.3040502@leemhuis.info> On 28.06.2008 17:14, John Poelstra wrote: A few comments from my side, in case anybody is interested: > === FUDCon Boston === > * Wondering if Red Hat Summit helped or hurt - I liked that Summit and FUDCON were close together, but maybe a little bit less overlap (e.g. Friday to Sunday for FUDCon instead of Thursday to Saturday) might have a bit been better/easier (but I'm not completely sure about that; see below) > * We didn't have a lot to show the "drive-bys" from the Summit who came > by the hackfest session Maybe that's because there was not much to see and no real schedule Summit attendees could look at to say "hey, I want to join this session and help"? For example I guess a least a few Summit attendees might have joined the the EPEL hackfest discussions if they were scheduled for a specific date and time; likely same for the Spacewalk discussions; maybe even for the rawhide discussions as well. But that of course would have required that we say "EPEL discussions Friday 10 - 12, room 310; be there is you are interested; we'd like to have your input how to move on with EPEL". But on the other hand that of course requires that there is enough overlap with the Summit. CU knurd From kwade at redhat.com Sun Jun 29 02:03:08 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 19:03:08 -0700 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2008-JUN-24 In-Reply-To: <48666A77.3040502@leemhuis.info> References: <48665555.2070009@redhat.com> <48666A77.3040502@leemhuis.info> Message-ID: <1214704988.6188.98.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Sat, 2008-06-28 at 18:44 +0200, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > For example I guess a least a few Summit attendees might have joined the > the EPEL hackfest discussions if they were scheduled for a specific date > and time; likely same for the Spacewalk discussions; maybe even for the > rawhide discussions as well. But that of course would have required that > we say "EPEL discussions Friday 10 - 12, room 310; be there is you are > interested; we'd like to have your input how to move on with EPEL". FWIW, we did, but we didn't widen the audience for that beyond fedora-isv-sig-list. URL We pulled the ISV, EPEL, and Java packaging stuff together within the weeks just before the Summit, and we didn't advertise the sessions as widely as possible. I'd thought this article was going to be in the Red Hat Free Press (daily newspaper from the Summit), which would have helped a bit: http://www.redhatmagazine.com/2008/06/19/fedoras-extra-packages-for-enterprise-linux-%e2%80%93-the-extra-mile/ Time was at least well spent with the ISVs who made the trip upstairs. :) I owe more reports on this, I'll post on epel-devel-list when I make them. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Sr. Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From fedora at leemhuis.info Sun Jun 29 09:26:05 2008 From: fedora at leemhuis.info (Thorsten Leemhuis) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 11:26:05 +0200 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2008-JUN-24 In-Reply-To: <1214704988.6188.98.camel@calliope.phig.org> References: <48665555.2070009@redhat.com> <48666A77.3040502@leemhuis.info> <1214704988.6188.98.camel@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <4867552D.4000006@leemhuis.info> On 29.06.2008 04:03, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > On Sat, 2008-06-28 at 18:44 +0200, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: >> For example I guess a least a few Summit attendees might have joined the >> the EPEL hackfest discussions if they were scheduled for a specific date >> and time; likely same for the Spacewalk discussions; maybe even for the >> rawhide discussions as well. But that of course would have required that >> we say "EPEL discussions Friday 10 - 12, room 310; be there is you are >> interested; we'd like to have your input how to move on with EPEL". > > FWIW, we did, but we didn't widen the audience for that beyond > fedora-isv-sig-list. One of the few Fedora lists I'm not (yet) subscribed to ;-) In any case: It was just meant as example. Nevertheless: > We pulled the ISV, EPEL, and Java packaging stuff together within the > weeks just before the Summit, and we didn't advertise the sessions as > widely as possible. I'd thought this article was going to be in the Red > Hat Free Press (daily newspaper from the Summit), which would have > helped a bit: > http://www.redhatmagazine.com/2008/06/19/fedoras-extra-packages-for-enterprise-linux-%e2%80%93-the-extra-mile/ It was in the Free Press IIRC. But the basic information "there are people from EPEL in the Fedora hackfest room; join them if you want to discuss or help with EPEL; those with the EPEL-Hat on their head are the ones you need to talk to (?). There is also a two our discussion scheduled for 2 pm on Friday in room foo; feel free to join it" was missing afaics. :-/ (?) which IMHO would be important; if you came into the Fedora room as non-Fedora-contributor you might feel lost and unwelcomed quickly as the groups on the different tables looked busy; at least some people in situation like that just leave instead of poking someone to say "hey, I want to talk to the guys from EPEL" (just a example) > [...] While at it: Karsten, thx for doing the EPEL talk on the summit itself. I could not join it, but I suppose it was great and helped a lot! Cu knurd From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sun Jun 29 09:32:17 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2008 15:02:17 +0530 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2008-JUN-24 In-Reply-To: <48665555.2070009@redhat.com> References: <48665555.2070009@redhat.com> Message-ID: <486756A1.5040405@fedoraproject.org> John Poelstra wrote: > > === Codeina (2008-05-13) === > * Need to restart discussion on fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com to get > plans in place at the start of F10 > * Chris Aillon to make contact with Bastien Nocera to find out what > current plans are > * RESOLUTION: > ** waiting on bug 438225 to proceed > ** this change will enable auto-provide for codec information > ** For Fedora 10 removing Codeina and using the distribution's built-in > mechanism to install packages (if 438255) is implemented > ** For Fluendo to continue to provide codecs to Fedora they will need to > provide them as packages in a yum repo > ** This errs on the side of more "free-ish" software > ** Revisit progress of Bug 438225 thirty days from now Should probably leave FESCo to handle implementation details here instead of keeping track of it down to the level of bug numbers. Rahul From stickster at gmail.com Mon Jun 30 12:20:50 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 08:20:50 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2008-JUN-24 In-Reply-To: <486756A1.5040405@fedoraproject.org> References: <48665555.2070009@redhat.com> <486756A1.5040405@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1214828450.3468.7.camel@victoria> On Sun, 2008-06-29 at 15:02 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > John Poelstra wrote: > > > > === Codeina (2008-05-13) === > > * Need to restart discussion on fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com to get > > plans in place at the start of F10 > > * Chris Aillon to make contact with Bastien Nocera to find out what > > current plans are > > * RESOLUTION: > > ** waiting on bug 438225 to proceed > > ** this change will enable auto-provide for codec information > > ** For Fedora 10 removing Codeina and using the distribution's built-in > > mechanism to install packages (if 438255) is implemented > > ** For Fluendo to continue to provide codecs to Fedora they will need to > > provide them as packages in a yum repo > > ** This errs on the side of more "free-ish" software > > ** Revisit progress of Bug 438225 thirty days from now > > Should probably leave FESCo to handle implementation details here > instead of keeping track of it down to the level of bug numbers. The notes indicate the Board's awareness of how the changes are being made, not that it is dictating these changes, so these notes and the policy of having FESCo be responsible for engineering issues are not really in conflict. -- Paul W. Frields gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://paul.frields.org/ - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Jun 30 12:45:11 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 18:15:11 +0530 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2008-JUN-24 In-Reply-To: <1214828450.3468.7.camel@victoria> References: <48665555.2070009@redhat.com> <486756A1.5040405@fedoraproject.org> <1214828450.3468.7.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <4868D557.5030002@fedoraproject.org> Paul W. Frields wrote: > The notes indicate the Board's awareness of how the changes are being > made, not that it is dictating these changes, so these notes and the > policy of having FESCo be responsible for engineering issues are not > really in conflict. I would argue that Codeina itself is a technical detail and shouldn't be managed by the board anymore which has discussed it in half a dozen meetings already. There are several other things that deserve more attention that this particular feature. Board can just make a policy decision on where it draws the line on free software and leave it at that. Rahul From caillon at redhat.com Mon Jun 30 15:46:45 2008 From: caillon at redhat.com (Christopher Aillon) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 11:46:45 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2008-JUN-24 In-Reply-To: <4868D557.5030002@fedoraproject.org> References: <48665555.2070009@redhat.com> <486756A1.5040405@fedoraproject.org> <1214828450.3468.7.camel@victoria> <4868D557.5030002@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <4868FFE5.8070801@redhat.com> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Paul W. Frields wrote: >> The notes indicate the Board's awareness of how the changes are being >> made, not that it is dictating these changes, so these notes and the >> policy of having FESCo be responsible for engineering issues are not >> really in conflict. > > I would argue that Codeina itself is a technical detail and shouldn't be > managed by the board anymore which has discussed it in half a dozen > meetings already. There are several other things that deserve more > attention that this particular feature. Board can just make a policy > decision on where it draws the line on free software and leave it at that. It's not managed by the Board. In fact, this is the complete opposite. In the past the Board more or less mandated what the codec story would be and people would implement it, for better or worse (worse mostly). Now, the Board is letting the technical people dictate the story, and just watching to make sure it doesn't stray from the path. From kwade at redhat.com Mon Jun 30 20:45:27 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 13:45:27 -0700 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2008-JUN-24 In-Reply-To: <4867552D.4000006@leemhuis.info> References: <48665555.2070009@redhat.com> <48666A77.3040502@leemhuis.info> <1214704988.6188.98.camel@calliope.phig.org> <4867552D.4000006@leemhuis.info> Message-ID: <1214858727.4444.26.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Sun, 2008-06-29 at 11:26 +0200, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > It was in the Free Press IIRC. But the basic information "there are > people from EPEL in the Fedora hackfest room; join them if you want to > discuss or help with EPEL; those with the EPEL-Hat on their head are the > ones you need to talk to (?). There is also a two our discussion > scheduled for 2 pm on Friday in room foo; feel free to join it" was > missing afaics. :-/ Ah, I missed that. Was it Thursday or Friday? I missed Friday's edition. > (?) which IMHO would be important; if you came into the Fedora room as > non-Fedora-contributor you might feel lost and unwelcomed quickly as the > groups on the different tables looked busy; at least some people in > situation like that just leave instead of poking someone to say "hey, I > want to talk to the guys from EPEL" (just a example) +1 ... our signage at the hack fest was a bit lacking. > > [...] > > While at it: Karsten, thx for doing the EPEL talk on the summit itself. > I could not join it, but I suppose it was great and helped a lot! http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/2008/downloads/pdf/Thursday/kwade_1_1.pdf Second half of the PDF has the notes view, with all the content. I wrote all the content first, then outlined it, then made slides. It's not noted there (oversight on my part) that the content is CC BY-SA. All of the source bits are here: http://quaid.fedorapeople.org/presentations/Red-Hat-Summit-2008/ If anyone wants to make a generic version, it'll make spreading the EPEL story easier. It only took me ... 22 minutes? Maybe a bit more, but it's a fairly tight run through, if you wrote the material. :D - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Sr. Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: