From stickster at gmail.com Sat Mar 1 01:59:01 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 20:59:01 -0500 Subject: Fedora Board IRC meeting 2008-03-04 Message-ID: <1204336741.3556.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Fedora Board IRC meeting, 2008-03-04 - 1900 UTC ------------------------------------------------ The Fedora Board will hold an IRC meeting on Tuesday, 4 March 2008, at 1900 UTC (2:00pm EST, 11:00am PST). This meeting will NOT be held in #fedora-meeting, since it is being used by the community at that time. There will be two IRC channels available on Freenode (irc.freenode.net): * #fedora-board-public -- this channel can be joined and used by all community members like any public channel. There will be a moderator present to take questions and the Board members can watch this channel as well. * #fedora-board-meeting -- this channel can be joined and viewed by the public but only Board members can communicate on it. Here the Board members will cover an agenda and then take Q&A. Because we hope for a large turnout, this setup promotes an orderly process when the Board takes questions or open issues. The length of the Q&A will depend on availability of the Board members and interest from the community. We look forward to seeing community members at the meeting. We also hope you will enjoy having a look at some of the Board's work, and encourage you to ask questions. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From loupgaroublond at gmail.com Sat Mar 1 19:19:52 2008 From: loupgaroublond at gmail.com (Yaakov Nemoy) Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 14:19:52 -0500 Subject: Interns update In-Reply-To: <47C53590.7090008@fedoraproject.org> References: <47C53590.7090008@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <7f692fec0803011119v76b0f25ds746884f90fe6fd55@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Feb 27, 2008 at 5:04 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Max Spevack wrote: > > We need at least one more good intern job description. > > > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Interns > > > > Right now we have descriptions and accountable persons for: > > > > * Fedora QA intern > > * Fedora bug triage intern > > * Fedora infrastructure code monky > > * Fedora TV intern > > > > We need to have 5 solid intern job descriptions before the end of the > > week. If your piece of Fedora can make a compelling case for a > > technical intern, please do so on this page, but ensure that there is a > > Red Hat employee who is willing to be accountable for that intern's > > daily responsibilities. > > What's the plan for wevisor? It seems to struck in pre-alpha stage for a > long time now. Could interns help? I had a couple of ideas for Wevisor, that I will probably be working on as soon as the semester is over for me. I'll have a 2 month break in between any internships anyways. That said, if RH wants to pay me to work on it too, I'm not terribly disinclined ;). That said, I was hoping to have the desuckage completed before I do an internship for anyone, and if I end up working for RH, it would probably be in some level of infrastructure applications. -Yaakov From kwade at redhat.com Mon Mar 3 07:10:07 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2008 23:10:07 -0800 Subject: Fwd: Google Summer of Code 2008 is on! In-Reply-To: <200802251123.15855.nman64@n-man.com> References: <200802251123.15855.nman64@n-man.com> Message-ID: <1204528207.8319.162.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Mon, 2008-02-25 at 11:23 -0600, Patrick W. Barnes wrote: > Yet another opportunity to bring in a handful of students to take on exciting > new projects. > > http://googlesummerofcode.blogspot.com/2008/02/sounds-like-summer.html > > I'd be happy to take point on this, as I have the last couple of years, but I > welcome all of the help I can get. We'll need fresh project ideas as quickly > as possible. We can apply as a mentoring organization after 2008-03-03. OK, Board had a discussion on this and agree that it's worthwhile for us to pursue. Consensus all around? So, Patrick, let's get the mentoring org. application in ASAP; the doors open tomorrow. Catch me on #fedora-docs? Or setup a time to meet on IRC? ISTR that the number of initial student slots is related to the number of applications for the mentoring org. This is why I've been working to pump up the application count and quality, so we obtain and retain the greatest number of slots. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From dimitris at glezos.com Mon Mar 3 14:22:38 2008 From: dimitris at glezos.com (Dimitris Glezos) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 16:22:38 +0200 Subject: Interns update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6d4237680803030622r63fcef70r341a89f55a6f4bef@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Feb 26, 2008 at 6:56 PM, Max Spevack wrote: > We need at least one more good intern job description. > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Interns > > Right now we have descriptions and accountable persons for: > > * Fedora QA intern > * Fedora bug triage intern > * Fedora infrastructure code monky > * Fedora TV intern > > We need to have 5 solid intern job descriptions before the end of the > week. If your piece of Fedora can make a compelling case for a > technical intern, please do so on this page, but ensure that there is a > Red Hat employee who is willing to be accountable for that intern's > daily responsibilities. Good stuff. There are a lot of ideas in the Localization Tools landscape as well: web-based translations, extensions to get more translation communities on board, etc. Not sure who could be accountable for them though. -d -- Dimitris Glezos Jabber ID: glezos at jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B http://dimitris.glezos.com/ "He who gives up functionality for ease of use loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous) -- From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 20:57:19 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 11:57:19 -0900 Subject: Draft Proposal: Spin Submission and Approval Process Message-ID: <604aa7910803041257x6546a8b8yd7bfa8f4a3b1febc@mail.gmail.com> This draft covers how new spins will be developed and released. It does not yet cover the issue of updated spins which incorporate updated packages. :::Kickstart Pool: This is a community peer reviewed space of kickstart files. These kickstart files have Board approval to use the Fedora trademarks, and can be used with livecd creation tools by individuals in the Fedora community to produce live images on an as-needed basis. The Kickstart Pool is where all new Spin concepts go first to be reviewed and tested by a peer group of Spin Maintainers for Spin Guideline compliance and technical quality. Once the peer group has reviewed and tested the spin concept, the spin proposal is sent to the Fedora Board for review. If the Board grants trademark usage, the kickstart file can then be added to the Fedora CVS and listed on in the fedoraproject websites as a community contributed spin. The Board will be relying primarily on the technical judgment embodied in a set of codified in the Spin Guidelines, but reserves the right to reject a spin concept on grounds not covered in the technical guidance. If this happens, the Board will state the arguments for rejection in the f-a-b list for public discussion. In circumstances where the Board finds a technical issue with a proposed spin that is not covered in the Spin Guidelines, the Board with work with the Spin Maintainers to address the issue by adapting the Spin Guidelines. The Fedora community will have access to approved kickstart files so that they can make local builds of the spins as needed (through cvs, website, and perhaps as a package). If a spin maintainer has the ability to host their own spin binary images, they will be allowed to link to such binaries (and signatures) from the community contributed spins once the peer group of Spin Maintainers certifies that the signatures for the binaries are correct. :::Spin Maintainers: In order for the Kickstart Pool concept to work, a new community group must be established to review new Spin proposals and to work on an evolving set of Spin Guidelines which can be used to set a minimum level of technical quality for the kickstart file and resulting spin images. Ideally this will be a group of peers, made up primarily of people maintaining existing spin kickstart files and others who are experts in kickstart usage. :::Spin Guidelines: All of the spins in the Kickstart Pool must meet or exceed a set of community Spin Guidelines (similar to the Package Review Guidelines.) As part of the Spin Guidelines a naming scheme for these spins must be adopted so that they are easily distinguishable from Released Spins. This will be an evolving set of Spin Guidelines, and as the breadth of community contributed spins grows, the Spin Guidelines will need to be enhanced to cover new situations. :::Pre-Approval Testing: The peer group of Spin Maintainers are tasked to do at a minimum the following testing. 1) Ensure the image builds 2) Ensure the built image boots 3) Test installation from the image 4) Spin Guideline Compliance 4) Other image-specific testing :::Release Selection and Released Spins: Released Spins is a tightly controlled space of releng vetted spins that are available for download in binary form as part of the Fedora release process(centrally managed torrent and/or mirrors). The purpose of this space is to make best use of available project infrastructure to provide a diverse selection of high quality spins for easy consumption by end users. Because hosting space is finite, Release Selections may change from release to release. Additionally releng may require technical changes to candidate spins beyond what is allowed in the Spin Guidelines. When appropriate releng will attempt to codify these additional technical requirements, when they are known to impact multiple spins in the Kickstart Pool. Spins in the Kickstart Pool may request to be reviewed for Release Selection as part of the Fedora release process (similar in timing to how the Feature process works). releng has the option to allow a spin to be released late (relative to the Fedora release date), at their discretion. But in general, the Spin Release Selection process should aim to be completed such that all Released Spins are available at the time of the next Fedora release. ------- Question for Spin Maintainers: What is the best way of generating the manifest of SRPM's used in the packageset that makes a Spin? And can we do it in a web friendly way that links back to packagedb information? Questions for the Board: Do we need export approval for each spin in the Kickstart Pool? ----- If this draft becomes policy, here are the items which must happen before the Board can approve any more spin concepts: 1) We need to put together the peer group of Spin Maintainers and interested parties to start crafting a set of Spin Guidelines 2) We need to create a space in cvs for contributed kickstart files 3) We need a way to cleanly distinguish between Released Spins and Contributed Spins in our webspaces such as spins.fp.org ---- My comments: I think people on the Board/releng can probably help create an initial document for the Spin Guidelines and hand it to a working group of Spin Maintainers to use initially is possible to prevent an unnecessarily long block on the creation of an intial Spin Guidelines. But a working group of Spin Maintainers who are invested in doing peer reviews of spin concepts is key. The hardest thing, and the thing that can end up being the longest blocker is 3). It's not clear that there are a group of people with a strong investment in reconfiguring spins.fp.org. I know people have been looking at a redesign, but I'm not sure if its a high enough priority on anyone's todo list to block on it. But something that needs to happen, if we want to give community contributed spins a web presence inside our project space. -jef From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 21:07:21 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 12:07:21 -0900 Subject: LWN Subscription Update Message-ID: <604aa7910803041307n550f9483lca163cd6ef671c4d@mail.gmail.com> Everyone who got their information to me before or on March 1st should now have an active LWN account. If you made a request, and your LWN account isn't activated.. better let me know soonish. In total there are now 63 accounts activated under the Fedora group at LWN. That leaves 12 accounts left to be gifted. I still have a couple of late request emails to look at. My plan now is to guilt the other board members into going out and finding people to gift these remaining subscriptions to. -jef From jkeating at redhat.com Tue Mar 4 21:17:05 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2008 16:17:05 -0500 Subject: Draft Proposal: Spin Submission and Approval Process In-Reply-To: <604aa7910803041257x6546a8b8yd7bfa8f4a3b1febc@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910803041257x6546a8b8yd7bfa8f4a3b1febc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1204665425.8828.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2008-03-04 at 11:57 -0900, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > The Fedora community will have access to approved kickstart files so > that they can make local builds of the spins as needed (through cvs, > website, and perhaps as a package). If a spin maintainer has the > ability to host their own spin binary images, they will be allowed to > link to such binaries (and signatures) from the community contributed > spins once the peer group of Spin Maintainers certifies that the > signatures for the binaries are correct. What are the signatures you're referring to here? > :::Release Selection and Released Spins: > Released Spins is a tightly controlled space of releng vetted spins > that are available for download in binary form as part of the Fedora > release process(centrally managed torrent and/or mirrors). The > purpose of this space is to make best use of available project > infrastructure to provide a diverse selection of high quality spins I would avoid the term 'high quality' here, as it would seem to indicate that the spins in the Kickstart Pool are of low quality. I think a more correct term here would be 'popular' or some other term to indicate that a large majority of our users want it, and thus it makes sense to spend infrastructure and people costs on them. > > ------- > Question for Spin Maintainers: > What is the best way of generating the manifest of SRPM's used in the > packageset that makes a Spin? And can we do it in a web friendly way > that links back to packagedb information? Ideally this would be a feature of the creation tool. It should be able to spit out a list of packages used. It would go along with the other feature I wanted to add, the optional gathering of the srpms used into a directory for distribution along with the live image. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- All my bits are free, are yours? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 21:23:05 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 12:23:05 -0900 Subject: Draft Proposal: Spin Submission and Approval Process In-Reply-To: <1204665425.8828.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <604aa7910803041257x6546a8b8yd7bfa8f4a3b1febc@mail.gmail.com> <1204665425.8828.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <604aa7910803041323v6d3821acre1c00c8350dceea6@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 12:17 PM, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Tue, 2008-03-04 at 11:57 -0900, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > The Fedora community will have access to approved kickstart files so > > that they can make local builds of the spins as needed (through cvs, > > website, and perhaps as a package). If a spin maintainer has the > > ability to host their own spin binary images, they will be allowed to > > link to such binaries (and signatures) from the community contributed > > spins once the peer group of Spin Maintainers certifies that the > > signatures for the binaries are correct. > > What are the signatures you're referring to here? I guess I meant signed checksums, using an individual's gpg key (Not any of the keys the fedora project is using). If people are going to link to external images, I want to make sure we have some basic verification available that its the image people are expecting to find. -jef From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 21:24:15 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 12:24:15 -0900 Subject: Draft Proposal: Spin Submission and Approval Process In-Reply-To: <604aa7910803041257x6546a8b8yd7bfa8f4a3b1febc@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910803041257x6546a8b8yd7bfa8f4a3b1febc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910803041324w51181e25m5333f23cdae03619@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 11:57 AM, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > 2) We need to create a space in cvs for contributed kickstart files Let me expand on this. This should actually say cvs space and bugzilla component. I pretty much agree with what Jeremy put in his strawman draft concerning cvs and bugzilla. -jef From jkeating at redhat.com Tue Mar 4 21:27:09 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2008 16:27:09 -0500 Subject: Draft Proposal: Spin Submission and Approval Process In-Reply-To: <604aa7910803041323v6d3821acre1c00c8350dceea6@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910803041257x6546a8b8yd7bfa8f4a3b1febc@mail.gmail.com> <1204665425.8828.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910803041323v6d3821acre1c00c8350dceea6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1204666029.8828.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2008-03-04 at 12:23 -0900, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > What are the signatures you're referring to here? > > I guess I meant signed checksums, using an individual's gpg key (Not > any of the keys the fedora project is using). If people are going to > link to external images, I want to make sure we have some basic > verification available that its the image people are expecting to > find. > Ok, it brings up another point though. We don't currently have a way of verifying that the content in the Live image actually came from signed rpms. Some people may want that, especially if they're going to be built and offered outside the Fedora infrastructure and not signed by Fedora keys. More tools needed I suppose :/ -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- All my bits are free, are yours? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jwboyer at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 21:29:51 2008 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 15:29:51 -0600 Subject: Draft Proposal: Spin Submission and Approval Process In-Reply-To: <604aa7910803041323v6d3821acre1c00c8350dceea6@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910803041257x6546a8b8yd7bfa8f4a3b1febc@mail.gmail.com> <1204665425.8828.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910803041323v6d3821acre1c00c8350dceea6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080304152951.348de869@weaponx> On Tue, 4 Mar 2008 12:23:05 -0900 "Jeff Spaleta" wrote: > On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 12:17 PM, Jesse Keating wrote: > > On Tue, 2008-03-04 at 11:57 -0900, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > > The Fedora community will have access to approved kickstart files so > > > that they can make local builds of the spins as needed (through cvs, > > > website, and perhaps as a package). If a spin maintainer has the > > > ability to host their own spin binary images, they will be allowed to > > > link to such binaries (and signatures) from the community contributed > > > spins once the peer group of Spin Maintainers certifies that the > > > signatures for the binaries are correct. > > > > What are the signatures you're referring to here? > > I guess I meant signed checksums, using an individual's gpg key (Not > any of the keys the fedora project is using). If people are going to > link to external images, I want to make sure we have some basic > verification available that its the image people are expecting to > find. Except spins are done off of released versions of Fedora. Which means the packages they use are already signed with the Fedora key. josh From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 21:30:29 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 12:30:29 -0900 Subject: Draft Proposal: Spin Submission and Approval Process In-Reply-To: <1204665425.8828.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <604aa7910803041257x6546a8b8yd7bfa8f4a3b1febc@mail.gmail.com> <1204665425.8828.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <604aa7910803041330j15d61f43s55912ce6780ca407@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 12:17 PM, Jesse Keating wrote: > I would avoid the term 'high quality' here, as it would seem to indicate > that the spins in the Kickstart Pool are of low quality. I think a more > correct term here would be 'popular' or some other term to indicate that > a large majority of our users want it, and thus it makes sense to spend > infrastructure and people costs on them. Well I wouldn't say 'popular' either, I want there to be room for 'kickassness' to raise a niche spin concept up to a Releasable image if we think its worth talking about as part of our release propaganda for one release. That way we can sort of have one or two niche spin images rotate out with each release but we always have a new kickass spin concept to talk about. -jef From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 21:32:23 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 12:32:23 -0900 Subject: Draft Proposal: Spin Submission and Approval Process In-Reply-To: <1204666029.8828.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <604aa7910803041257x6546a8b8yd7bfa8f4a3b1febc@mail.gmail.com> <1204665425.8828.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910803041323v6d3821acre1c00c8350dceea6@mail.gmail.com> <1204666029.8828.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <604aa7910803041332y19dd2ff1v8cc6eb8fd0293a3d@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 12:27 PM, Jesse Keating wrote: > Ok, it brings up another point though. We don't currently have a way of > verifying that the content in the Live image actually came from signed > rpms. Some people may want that, especially if they're going to be > built and offered outside the Fedora infrastructure and not signed by > Fedora keys. More tools needed I suppose :/ This may very well be a blocker on allowing people to link in externally built stuff. But if it is, it is, and I'll hold the line on that. This wouldn't be a blocker on the kickstart pool however right? -jef From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 21:34:01 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 12:34:01 -0900 Subject: Draft Proposal: Spin Submission and Approval Process In-Reply-To: <20080304152951.348de869@weaponx> References: <604aa7910803041257x6546a8b8yd7bfa8f4a3b1febc@mail.gmail.com> <1204665425.8828.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910803041323v6d3821acre1c00c8350dceea6@mail.gmail.com> <20080304152951.348de869@weaponx> Message-ID: <604aa7910803041334g6427b2ccl330d31a500a7c87f@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 12:29 PM, Josh Boyer wrote: > Except spins are done off of released versions of Fedora. Which means > the packages they use are already signed with the Fedora key. We'd have to have some way to verify that. -jef From jkeating at redhat.com Tue Mar 4 21:39:12 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2008 16:39:12 -0500 Subject: Draft Proposal: Spin Submission and Approval Process In-Reply-To: <604aa7910803041332y19dd2ff1v8cc6eb8fd0293a3d@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910803041257x6546a8b8yd7bfa8f4a3b1febc@mail.gmail.com> <1204665425.8828.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910803041323v6d3821acre1c00c8350dceea6@mail.gmail.com> <1204666029.8828.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910803041332y19dd2ff1v8cc6eb8fd0293a3d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1204666752.8828.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2008-03-04 at 12:32 -0900, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > This wouldn't be a blocker on the kickstart pool however right? I wouldn't think so. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- All my bits are free, are yours? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 21:45:55 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 12:45:55 -0900 Subject: Draft Proposal: Spin Submission and Approval Process In-Reply-To: <604aa7910803041334g6427b2ccl330d31a500a7c87f@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910803041257x6546a8b8yd7bfa8f4a3b1febc@mail.gmail.com> <1204665425.8828.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910803041323v6d3821acre1c00c8350dceea6@mail.gmail.com> <20080304152951.348de869@weaponx> <604aa7910803041334g6427b2ccl330d31a500a7c87f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910803041345h1beae372n7646d26d12367d7e@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 12:34 PM, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 12:29 PM, Josh Boyer wrote: > > Except spins are done off of released versions of Fedora. Which means > > the packages they use are already signed with the Fedora key. > > We'd have to have some way to verify that. Correct me if I'm wrong, but any sort of checksum comparison between multiple locally built images wouldn't work as a baseline verifier of which repository a spin was built from would it? If 4 different people took the kickstart and rebuilt it using the livecd tools on different machines at different times, using packages from the fedora repository..they wouldn't end up with images with the same checksums right? -jef From jkeating at redhat.com Tue Mar 4 21:47:44 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2008 16:47:44 -0500 Subject: Draft Proposal: Spin Submission and Approval Process In-Reply-To: <604aa7910803041345h1beae372n7646d26d12367d7e@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910803041257x6546a8b8yd7bfa8f4a3b1febc@mail.gmail.com> <1204665425.8828.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910803041323v6d3821acre1c00c8350dceea6@mail.gmail.com> <20080304152951.348de869@weaponx> <604aa7910803041334g6427b2ccl330d31a500a7c87f@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910803041345h1beae372n7646d26d12367d7e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1204667264.8828.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2008-03-04 at 12:45 -0900, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > Correct me if I'm wrong, but any sort of checksum comparison between > multiple locally built images wouldn't work as a baseline verifier of > which repository a spin was built from would it? If 4 different > people took the kickstart and rebuilt it using the livecd tools on > different machines at different times, using packages from the fedora > repository..they wouldn't end up with images with the same checksums > right? I think we'd have to do some verification of the content within the image, not the image itself. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- All my bits are free, are yours? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Mar 4 21:56:48 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 03:26:48 +0530 Subject: Draft Proposal: Spin Submission and Approval Process In-Reply-To: <604aa7910803041324w51181e25m5333f23cdae03619@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910803041257x6546a8b8yd7bfa8f4a3b1febc@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910803041324w51181e25m5333f23cdae03619@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47CDC5A0.6010206@fedoraproject.org> Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 11:57 AM, Jeff Spaleta wrote: >> 2) We need to create a space in cvs for contributed kickstart files > > > Let me expand on this. This should actually say cvs space and bugzilla > component. > I pretty much agree with what Jeremy put in his strawman draft > concerning cvs and bugzilla. What purpose does bugzilla components for every spin serve? End users will start filing bugs/feature requests that should have filed against the individual packages against the generic bugzilla components and spin maintainers would be unnecessarily acting as middle men. I would prefer some other medium for feedback/ requests on actual spin changes. Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Mar 4 22:04:17 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 03:34:17 +0530 Subject: Draft Proposal: Spin Submission and Approval Process In-Reply-To: <604aa7910803041257x6546a8b8yd7bfa8f4a3b1febc@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910803041257x6546a8b8yd7bfa8f4a3b1febc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47CDC761.4050201@fedoraproject.org> Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > ------- > Question for Spin Maintainers: > What is the best way of generating the manifest of SRPM's used in the > packageset that makes a Spin? And can we do it in a web friendly way > that links back to packagedb information? This is something the tools should handle and not something spin maintainers need to worry about. Rahul From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Mar 4 22:20:58 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 13:20:58 -0900 Subject: Draft Proposal: Spin Submission and Approval Process In-Reply-To: <47CDC5A0.6010206@fedoraproject.org> References: <604aa7910803041257x6546a8b8yd7bfa8f4a3b1febc@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910803041324w51181e25m5333f23cdae03619@mail.gmail.com> <47CDC5A0.6010206@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <604aa7910803041420m1ef79d8cv97c92a8b9d4c9608@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 12:56 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > What purpose does bugzilla components for every spin serve? Patch submission for changes in kickstart logic. > I would prefer > some other medium for feedback/ requests on actual spin changes. 'Some other'... is pretty unspecific. Where would you prefer patches for kickstart logic go? -jef From katzj at redhat.com Wed Mar 5 03:04:27 2008 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2008 22:04:27 -0500 Subject: Draft Proposal: Spin Submission and Approval Process In-Reply-To: <1204667264.8828.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <604aa7910803041257x6546a8b8yd7bfa8f4a3b1febc@mail.gmail.com> <1204665425.8828.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910803041323v6d3821acre1c00c8350dceea6@mail.gmail.com> <20080304152951.348de869@weaponx> <604aa7910803041334g6427b2ccl330d31a500a7c87f@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910803041345h1beae372n7646d26d12367d7e@mail.gmail.com> <1204667264.8828.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1204686267.25345.14.camel@aglarond.local> On Tue, 2008-03-04 at 16:47 -0500, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Tue, 2008-03-04 at 12:45 -0900, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > Correct me if I'm wrong, but any sort of checksum comparison between > > multiple locally built images wouldn't work as a baseline verifier of > > which repository a spin was built from would it? If 4 different > > people took the kickstart and rebuilt it using the livecd tools on > > different machines at different times, using packages from the fedora > > repository..they wouldn't end up with images with the same checksums > > right? > > I think we'd have to do some verification of the content within the > image, not the image itself. Correct. Between timestamps, squashfs comperession and other fun, the image itself would differ Jeremy From katzj at redhat.com Wed Mar 5 03:06:38 2008 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2008 22:06:38 -0500 Subject: Draft Proposal: Spin Submission and Approval Process In-Reply-To: <47CDC5A0.6010206@fedoraproject.org> References: <604aa7910803041257x6546a8b8yd7bfa8f4a3b1febc@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910803041324w51181e25m5333f23cdae03619@mail.gmail.com> <47CDC5A0.6010206@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1204686398.25345.17.camel@aglarond.local> On Wed, 2008-03-05 at 03:26 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 11:57 AM, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > >> 2) We need to create a space in cvs for contributed kickstart files > > > > Let me expand on this. This should actually say cvs space and bugzilla > > component. > > I pretty much agree with what Jeremy put in his strawman draft > > concerning cvs and bugzilla. > > What purpose does bugzilla components for every spin serve? End users > will start filing bugs/feature requests that should have filed against > the individual packages against the generic bugzilla components and spin > maintainers would be unnecessarily acting as middle men. I would prefer > some other medium for feedback/ requests on actual spin changes. If you don't, then they'll file them just against "LiveCD" or "distribution". There's no way that scales. Even with the small number of released and officially blessed spins, I often have to go and look up exactly which email addresses I want to reassign, eg, a KDE Live image bug to. Far better to have "KDE LiveCD", click reassign, and then let them deal with it. Yes, it means being a middle man, but that's one of the things you're sort of signing up for when you want to maintain a spin. Analagous to how you're signing up to be the middle man between Fedora users and upstream when you sign up to maintain a package. Jeremy From bche at redhat.com Wed Mar 5 14:48:34 2008 From: bche at redhat.com (Bryan Che) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 09:48:34 -0500 Subject: Proposal: Fedora@Home Project Message-ID: <47CEB2C2.1010803@redhat.com> Hi, my name is Bryan Che, and I am a long-time Fedora user and also the Red Hat product manager for a new Red Hat product, Red Hat Enterprise MRG (http://redhat.com/mrg). I would like to propose to create a new "Fedora at Home" project at Fedora which would use the open source technologies in MRG (and which have already been submitted to Fedora). MRG includes a grid scheduler based on the Condor project created by the University of Wisconsin (http://www.cs.wisc.edu/condor/). This scheduler includes the ability to harness idle CPU capacity from desktops and also schedule to virtual machines. I'd like to create a Fedora at Home project where Fedora hosts a MRG grid scheduler, people can donate CPU time on their computers for computations, and we schedule meaningful or useful work to these people's computers. This would be like an open and general-purpose Folding at Home or SETI at Home project. Ideally, we could include the client software for computation as part of Fedora distributions and build out a large, million+ node open grid for things like Fedora infrastructure tasks, scientific computing, or socially-beneficial work. This would be fantastic for Fedora as it would allow us to lead the open source movement into the area of open services and community computing based on open source. It would also be a great marketing showcase for Fedora by showing our leadership in grid technology and in the power of our community. And, it would provide Fedora users a feel-good way to contribute to Fedora--even if they don't code--by contributing CPU cycles towards things like builds or automated testing. Finally, for full disclosure: as the product manager for MRG, I would also love to be able to point to a Fedora at Home project as a showcase of the technologies in MRG at work in a massive, public grid. Red Hat and the University of Wisconsin recently signed a partnership that makes available the Condor source code under an OSI-approved open source license (mostly ASL). We have packaged Condor, submitted it to the F9 development branch, and are maintaining it there. The University of Wisconsin's Condor project remains our upstream code base and community. So, from a technology perspective, we should be able to build Fedora at Home using technologies that will all be in Fedora. What are your thoughts on this? (Please post replies to fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com as that is where I will be following discussion) Thanks, Bryan From foss.mailinglists at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 14:50:39 2008 From: foss.mailinglists at gmail.com (Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 20:20:39 +0530 Subject: Proposal: Fedora@Home Project In-Reply-To: <47CEB2C2.1010803@redhat.com> References: <47CEB2C2.1010803@redhat.com> Message-ID: <47CEB33F.7050108@gmail.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Bryan Che wrote: | Ideally, we could include the client software for computation as part of | Fedora distributions and build out a large, million+ node open grid for | things like Fedora infrastructure tasks, scientific computing, or | socially-beneficial work. How much of the required bits that make the client side computing possible via F at H are ready to roll out ? - -- http://www.gutenberg.net - Fine literature digitally re-published http://www.plos.org - Public Library of Science http://www.creativecommons.org - Flexible copyright for creative work -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHzrM/XQZpNTcrCzMRAgZEAJ9vY2q1ZADAPCNM44ZUW1W6Kxv7QQCgoT4L K3Ew08NHdDx2X/UTIMCj2hA= =o6Y1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bche at redhat.com Wed Mar 5 15:19:54 2008 From: bche at redhat.com (Bryan Che) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 10:19:54 -0500 Subject: Proposal: Fedora@Home Project In-Reply-To: <47CEB33F.7050108@gmail.com> References: <47CEB2C2.1010803@redhat.com> <47CEB33F.7050108@gmail.com> Message-ID: <47CEBA1A.7030203@redhat.com> Condor has been around since the late 1980's and been deployed quite widely. So, the client bits are already capable of handling these types of tasks. Where we would need to work is in the packaging, configuring, and easy enabling of the clients for users. Bryan Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Bryan Che wrote: > > | Ideally, we could include the client software for computation as part of > | Fedora distributions and build out a large, million+ node open grid for > | things like Fedora infrastructure tasks, scientific computing, or > | socially-beneficial work. > > How much of the required bits that make the client side computing > possible via F at H are ready to roll out ? > > > > > - -- > > http://www.gutenberg.net - Fine literature digitally re-published > http://www.plos.org - Public Library of Science > http://www.creativecommons.org - Flexible copyright for creative work > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQFHzrM/XQZpNTcrCzMRAgZEAJ9vY2q1ZADAPCNM44ZUW1W6Kxv7QQCgoT4L > K3Ew08NHdDx2X/UTIMCj2hA= > =o6Y1 > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board From foss.mailinglists at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 15:30:47 2008 From: foss.mailinglists at gmail.com (Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 21:00:47 +0530 Subject: Proposal: Fedora@Home Project In-Reply-To: <47CEBA1A.7030203@redhat.com> References: <47CEB2C2.1010803@redhat.com> <47CEB33F.7050108@gmail.com> <47CEBA1A.7030203@redhat.com> Message-ID: <47CEBCA7.80205@gmail.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Bryan Che wrote: | Condor has been around since the late 1980's and been deployed quite | widely. So, the client bits are already capable of handling these types | of tasks. Where we would need to work is in the packaging, configuring, | and easy enabling of the clients for users. Yup. That was what I was asking :) Is there a "vision" that you have in place for this ? - -- http://www.gutenberg.net - Fine literature digitally re-published http://www.plos.org - Public Library of Science http://www.creativecommons.org - Flexible copyright for creative work -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHzrynXQZpNTcrCzMRAiZAAKDLTsnC6sdeQWcEnY+Uimslt/HEUgCgvXXi sQOUq52A4VTfwuoH61PZfyg= =Pyiy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From mfarrellee+fedora at redhat.com Wed Mar 5 15:38:45 2008 From: mfarrellee+fedora at redhat.com (Matthew Farrellee) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 09:38:45 -0600 Subject: Proposal: Fedora@Home Project In-Reply-To: <47CEB33F.7050108@gmail.com> References: <47CEB2C2.1010803@redhat.com> <47CEB33F.7050108@gmail.com> Message-ID: <47CEBE85.9060409@redhat.com> Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay wrote: > Bryan Che wrote: > > | Ideally, we could include the client software for computation as part of > | Fedora distributions and build out a large, million+ node open grid for > | things like Fedora infrastructure tasks, scientific computing, or > | socially-beneficial work. > > How much of the required bits that make the client side computing > possible via F at H are ready to roll out ? The software is already packaged for F9. Initially, there is work to be done along the lines of easily enabling the client side for users. Long term, there is work to be done for handling NATs/firewalls, trusting results, and scaling up to the aforementioned "million+" node open grid. Best, matt From foss.mailinglists at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 15:38:45 2008 From: foss.mailinglists at gmail.com (Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 21:08:45 +0530 Subject: Proposal: Fedora@Home Project In-Reply-To: <47CEBE85.9060409@redhat.com> References: <47CEB2C2.1010803@redhat.com> <47CEB33F.7050108@gmail.com> <47CEBE85.9060409@redhat.com> Message-ID: <47CEBE85.8020409@gmail.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Matthew Farrellee wrote: | The software is already packaged for F9. Initially, there is work to be | done along the lines of easily enabling the client side for users. Long | term, there is work to be done for handling NATs/firewalls, trusting | results, and scaling up to the aforementioned "million+" node open grid. This is good news. On the fedora-devel list Debarshi pointed out to BOINC as well. If there was one single reason this is interesting for me is that there has for long been a sort of "underground" Fedora consumers cult doing work around Bioinformatics, Gene Sequencing and the like in India. The research work might not be in the open, but there is a ready community waiting to be tapped - -- http://www.gutenberg.net - Fine literature digitally re-published http://www.plos.org - Public Library of Science http://www.creativecommons.org - Flexible copyright for creative work -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHzr6FXQZpNTcrCzMRAg+NAJ9imRIxzRd8F51xuGG8y7WPT5TGFwCfaKEp WIOtwKfF+n9rjU98Qe4zMEs= =2szO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bche at redhat.com Wed Mar 5 16:07:35 2008 From: bche at redhat.com (Bryan Che) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 11:07:35 -0500 Subject: Proposal: Fedora@Home Project In-Reply-To: <47CEBE85.8020409@gmail.com> References: <47CEB2C2.1010803@redhat.com> <47CEB33F.7050108@gmail.com> <47CEBE85.9060409@redhat.com> <47CEBE85.8020409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <47CEC547.8010107@redhat.com> That's great to hear. Condor has been heavily used in a variety of research applications, so this would be a good fit. Bryan Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Matthew Farrellee wrote: > > | The software is already packaged for F9. Initially, there is work to be > | done along the lines of easily enabling the client side for users. Long > | term, there is work to be done for handling NATs/firewalls, trusting > | results, and scaling up to the aforementioned "million+" node open grid. > > This is good news. On the fedora-devel list Debarshi pointed out to > BOINC as well. If there was one single reason this is interesting for me > is that there has for long been a sort of "underground" Fedora consumers > cult doing work around Bioinformatics, Gene Sequencing and the like in > India. The research work might not be in the open, but there is a ready > community waiting to be tapped > > > > > - -- > > http://www.gutenberg.net - Fine literature digitally re-published > http://www.plos.org - Public Library of Science > http://www.creativecommons.org - Flexible copyright for creative work > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQFHzr6FXQZpNTcrCzMRAg+NAJ9imRIxzRd8F51xuGG8y7WPT5TGFwCfaKEp > WIOtwKfF+n9rjU98Qe4zMEs= > =2szO > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board From mfarrellee+fedora at redhat.com Wed Mar 5 16:14:43 2008 From: mfarrellee+fedora at redhat.com (Matthew Farrellee) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 10:14:43 -0600 Subject: Proposal: Fedora@Home Project In-Reply-To: <47CEBE85.8020409@gmail.com> References: <47CEB2C2.1010803@redhat.com> <47CEB33F.7050108@gmail.com> <47CEBE85.9060409@redhat.com> <47CEBE85.8020409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <47CEC6F3.2090002@redhat.com> Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay wrote: > Matthew Farrellee wrote: > > | The software is already packaged for F9. Initially, there is work to be > | done along the lines of easily enabling the client side for users. Long > | term, there is work to be done for handling NATs/firewalls, trusting > | results, and scaling up to the aforementioned "million+" node open grid. > > This is good news. On the fedora-devel list Debarshi pointed out to > BOINC as well. If there was one single reason this is interesting for me > is that there has for long been a sort of "underground" Fedora consumers > cult doing work around Bioinformatics, Gene Sequencing and the like in > India. The research work might not be in the open, but there is a ready > community waiting to be tapped You'd probably be interested to know that the client side (execute node) of Condor can use a BOINC client to process data when there is nothing else to run (jobs). Best, matt From mfarrellee at redhat.com Wed Mar 5 15:58:31 2008 From: mfarrellee at redhat.com (Matthew Farrellee) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 09:58:31 -0600 Subject: Proposal: Fedora@Home Project In-Reply-To: <47CEBE85.8020409@gmail.com> References: <47CEB2C2.1010803@redhat.com> <47CEB33F.7050108@gmail.com> <47CEBE85.9060409@redhat.com> <47CEBE85.8020409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <47CEC327.4050806@redhat.com> Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay wrote: > Matthew Farrellee wrote: > > | The software is already packaged for F9. Initially, there is work to be > | done along the lines of easily enabling the client side for users. Long > | term, there is work to be done for handling NATs/firewalls, trusting > | results, and scaling up to the aforementioned "million+" node open grid. > > This is good news. On the fedora-devel list Debarshi pointed out to > BOINC as well. If there was one single reason this is interesting for me > is that there has for long been a sort of "underground" Fedora consumers > cult doing work around Bioinformatics, Gene Sequencing and the like in > India. The research work might not be in the open, but there is a ready > community waiting to be tapped You'd probably be interested to know that the client side (execute node) of Condor can use a BOINC client to process data when there is nothing else to run (jobs). Best, matt From jkeating at redhat.com Wed Mar 5 16:44:22 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 11:44:22 -0500 Subject: Proposal: Fedora@Home Project In-Reply-To: <47CEB2C2.1010803@redhat.com> References: <47CEB2C2.1010803@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1204735462.3447.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2008-03-05 at 09:48 -0500, Bryan Che wrote: > What are your thoughts on this? What about the message that this sends, that we'd rather people kept their computers on and busy using as much energy as possible to process things? Wouldn't we rather people's computers used as less power as possible, and switched off as soon as they were no longer needed? What if we could have some sort of carbon counter that interacted with gnome-power-manager and some heuristics about a person's location and the carbon cost of power in that person's area, so that you could track over time what your computer usage is doing to your carbon cost? Then couldn't we set a carbon limit and only participate on the grid if you have enough carbon cost to spare the cycles? -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- All my bits are free, are yours? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 16:50:49 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 07:50:49 -0900 Subject: Proposal: Fedora@Home Project In-Reply-To: <47CEBE85.9060409@redhat.com> References: <47CEB2C2.1010803@redhat.com> <47CEB33F.7050108@gmail.com> <47CEBE85.9060409@redhat.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910803050850y7cd90832s6e2436768f122d58@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 6:38 AM, Matthew Farrellee wrote: > The software is already packaged for F9. Initially, there is work to be > done along the lines of easily enabling the client side for users. Long > term, there is work to be done for handling NATs/firewalls, trusting > results, and scaling up to the aforementioned "million+" node open grid. If most of the technology is already available and but needs to be packaged up as part of Fedora, then it sounds like this could be accomplished inside a SIG (Special Interest Group) First, create a SIG page in the wiki that gives some scope to the task. Look at the Astronomy SIG wikipage for an example Next, identify the packages that are already in and packages that need to get into the repository that support the task. Collect a group of people to work on getting those packages in. Hold regularly scheduled SIG meetings on irc to work on packaging. Then, Identify packages you feel need to be modified, and invite individual maintainers to discuss necessary modifications with the SIG. And while doing that if there is a missing tool set (like a high level config tool), add a tools project to the Fedora hosted service, and avoid using the word Fedora for the tool project's name. -jef From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 16:52:41 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 07:52:41 -0900 Subject: Proposal: Fedora@Home Project In-Reply-To: <1204735462.3447.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <47CEB2C2.1010803@redhat.com> <1204735462.3447.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <604aa7910803050852r34036596mefa81462de6dc878@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 7:44 AM, Jesse Keating wrote: > What if we could have some sort of carbon counter that interacted with > gnome-power-manager and some heuristics about a person's location and > the carbon cost of power in that person's area, so that you could track > over time what your computer usage is doing to your carbon cost? Then > couldn't we set a carbon limit and only participate on the grid if you > have enough carbon cost to spare the cycles? As long as we could extend it so that it could also track the carbon cost of each email I send out, and then would forcibly prevent me from sending too many mailinglist posts in a day. -jef From jeff at ocjtech.us Wed Mar 5 16:58:51 2008 From: jeff at ocjtech.us (Jeffrey Ollie) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 10:58:51 -0600 Subject: Proposal: Fedora@Home Project In-Reply-To: <1204735462.3447.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <47CEB2C2.1010803@redhat.com> <1204735462.3447.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <935ead450803050858w5873a16aya0db284cecb7c0f3@mail.gmail.com> On 3/5/08, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Wed, 2008-03-05 at 09:48 -0500, Bryan Che wrote: > > What are your thoughts on this? > > What about the message that this sends, that we'd rather people kept > their computers on and busy using as much energy as possible to process > things? Wouldn't we rather people's computers used as less power as > possible, and switched off as soon as they were no longer needed? I think that you need to weigh the ecological impact of keeping more computers turned on and using more energy vs. the potential social good that could be done if only project X could get enough computing power. That's a difficult computation to make, and likely depends on a number of hugely personal and emotional components. For example, if someone close to you is suffering from cancer you'd be more willing to overlook the carbon costs associated with a project if that project was working in some way to develop better treatments for cancer. > What if we could have some sort of carbon counter that interacted with > gnome-power-manager and some heuristics about a person's location and > the carbon cost of power in that person's area, so that you could track > over time what your computer usage is doing to your carbon cost? Then > couldn't we set a carbon limit and only participate on the grid if you > have enough carbon cost to spare the cycles? Other than the obvious difficulties in determining what the carbon cost of a kWH is for every location on the globe, that sounds like a useful project in itself. Jeff From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed Mar 5 17:03:45 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 08:03:45 -0900 Subject: Proposal: Fedora@Home Project In-Reply-To: <935ead450803050858w5873a16aya0db284cecb7c0f3@mail.gmail.com> References: <47CEB2C2.1010803@redhat.com> <1204735462.3447.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> <935ead450803050858w5873a16aya0db284cecb7c0f3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910803050903k4367d004hd15933fc14aa2dd2@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 7:58 AM, Jeffrey Ollie wrote: > Other than the obvious difficulties in determining what the carbon > cost of a kWH is for every location on the globe, that sounds like a > useful project in itself. If I use a handcrank on an OLPC as part of the grid.. is that negative carbon cost? -jef From bche at redhat.com Wed Mar 5 17:09:34 2008 From: bche at redhat.com (Bryan Che) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 12:09:34 -0500 Subject: Proposal: Fedora@Home Project In-Reply-To: <1204735462.3447.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <47CEB2C2.1010803@redhat.com> <1204735462.3447.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <47CED3CE.3040106@redhat.com> I agree that it's important to be efficient and environmentally-friendly. But, the message for this project wouldn't be for people to keep "their computers on and busy using as much energy as possible to process things." Rather, it's "we have these important projects that need help. Please consider contributing computing power to them." Perhaps we could provide information about the projects and why they need help, and we could also make users aware of the costs of contributing. Then users could make a choice about whether they want to opt-in to help these projects. Nobody wants to waste power. But, at the same time, there is massive work to be done. So, the question is: what is the most efficient way to do this work? That's a question worth asking and will take effort to answer. But, I'm sure that if we can find solutions, that in itself would be quite beneficial as other companies could leverage our work to save power as they deploy grids. Bryan Jesse Keating wrote: > On Wed, 2008-03-05 at 09:48 -0500, Bryan Che wrote: >> What are your thoughts on this? > > What about the message that this sends, that we'd rather people kept > their computers on and busy using as much energy as possible to process > things? Wouldn't we rather people's computers used as less power as > possible, and switched off as soon as they were no longer needed? > > What if we could have some sort of carbon counter that interacted with > gnome-power-manager and some heuristics about a person's location and > the carbon cost of power in that person's area, so that you could track > over time what your computer usage is doing to your carbon cost? Then > couldn't we set a carbon limit and only participate on the grid if you > have enough carbon cost to spare the cycles? > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board From kwade at redhat.com Wed Mar 5 20:22:35 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 12:22:35 -0800 Subject: Proposal: Fedora@Home Project In-Reply-To: <604aa7910803050903k4367d004hd15933fc14aa2dd2@mail.gmail.com> References: <47CEB2C2.1010803@redhat.com> <1204735462.3447.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> <935ead450803050858w5873a16aya0db284cecb7c0f3@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910803050903k4367d004hd15933fc14aa2dd2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1204748555.4141.97.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Wed, 2008-03-05 at 08:03 -0900, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 7:58 AM, Jeffrey Ollie wrote: > > Other than the obvious difficulties in determining what the carbon > > cost of a kWH is for every location on the globe, that sounds like a > > useful project in itself. > > If I use a handcrank on an OLPC as part of the grid.. is that negative > carbon cost? During the daylight hours here in the Pacific central coast, my cycles are solar powered. It would be cool, as part of Jesse's idea, to mark my contributions to the grid to occur during specific hours. Heck, tie it into the weather and reduce it 20% for cloud cover. :) - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From fche at redhat.com Wed Mar 5 17:50:55 2008 From: fche at redhat.com (Frank Ch. Eigler) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 12:50:55 -0500 Subject: Proposal: Fedora@Home Project In-Reply-To: <47CEB2C2.1010803@redhat.com> (Bryan Che's message of "Wed, 05 Mar 2008 09:48:34 -0500") References: <47CEB2C2.1010803@redhat.com> Message-ID: Bryan Che writes: > [...] Ideally, we could include the client software for computation > as part of Fedora distributions and build out a large, million+ node > open grid for things like Fedora infrastructure tasks, scientific > computing, or socially-beneficial work. [...] Could you say a word or two about the security implications of this proposal? How would you convince a random fedora user that installing this is safe to his machine / data / resources? - FChE From poelstra at redhat.com Thu Mar 6 00:21:41 2008 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 16:21:41 -0800 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2008-MAR-04 Message-ID: <47CF3915.6020008@redhat.com> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/Meetings/2008-03-04 (including full IRC transcript) == Roll Call == Attendees: Paul Frields, Steve Dickson, Bill Nottingham, Chris Aillon, Matt Domsch, Jef Spaleta, Karsten Wade, Bob McWirther, Dennis Gilmore, Seth Vidal, John Poelstra, Everyone on #fedora-board-meeting == Followup to Previous Business == === Secondary Arch Hosting (2008-02-19) === * Can Fedora host binaries for secondary architectures? * Change from original proposal * makes it easier to get new mirrors and use mirror manager * DECISION: board approves of Fedora hosting binaries for secondary architectures * '''FOLLOWUP 2008-02-26''' * Infrastructure group raising issue with lack of space * Are distribution methods a concern for growing secondary architectures? * OWNERS: Seth and Matt; Spot also assisting * ACTIONS: reach out to existing relationships and pursue storage opportunities * '''FOLLOWUP 2008-03-04''' * Seth to do more followup with BU--potentially 150G * Spot reports 450G from HP * Check back on 2008-03-18 === Post-release updates of custom spins (2008-01-29) === * Should the board have to approve them? * We will hosts as many spins as we have space for * Need to determine the hosting requirements and limits * How long will spins stay around? * http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/RahulSundaram/SpinsProcess * ACTION: Jef to review Rahul's proposal and report back to board * OWNER: Jef Spaleta * '''FOLLOWUP on 2008-02-12''' * Jef is waiting for feedback from Jeremy Katz on release engineering's perspective * Reference: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ReleaseEngineering/Meetings/2008-feb-11 * People are still not clear on exactly what is required to create an official "Fedora Spin" * Need a clear list of guidelines of what a spin owner is responsible for and what they are required to test * Hoping a test will come from Jeremy Katz as part of feedback from release engineering * We are only talking about spins that use GA packages, thus testing for GA should have given us enough comfort that risk is minimized * We only need to be concerned with new combination of packages that a spin would present * ACTIONS & OWNERS: * Paul Frields--followup with Fedora Release Engineering and QA contingent to discuss testing requirements * Jef Spaleta to formulate specific guidelines for review prior to or at next board meeting (dependent on feedback from release engineering) * '''FOLLOWUP on 2008-02-19''' * Crux of issue right now is figuring out exactly what input release engineering is supposed to be giving * Jef will have a writeup to the board by next meeting * Paul will be at the Red Hat office in Westford, MA next week and can sit down and work out any of the remaining details with Jeremy, Jesse, Will, etc. * '''FOLLOWUP on 2008-02-26''' * releng has created http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JeremyKatz/SpinChecklist * Jef has input from Rahul and plans to start writing a draft * '''FOLLOWUP on 2008-03-04''' * Jef posting proposal to fedora-advisory-board-list: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2008-March/msg00004.html == New Business == * Q&A with Fedora Board on IRC * Will attempt to have one public meeting per month === Questions & Answers === a. GPL compliance for event media 14:34 a. Swag with Fedora trademark (logo) 4:43 a. Non-RHT people for RHT appointed board seats a. Presto in Fedora 9 a. LWN Subscription status a. OLPC and Fedora relationship a. FUDCon 10 and future FUDCons == Next Meeting == * Permanent meeting time and day until further notice * TIME: 14:00 EST (19:00 UTC) * DATE: Tuesday, 2008-03-11 From mfarrellee+fedora at redhat.com Thu Mar 6 00:28:45 2008 From: mfarrellee+fedora at redhat.com (Matthew Farrellee) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 18:28:45 -0600 Subject: Proposal: Fedora@Home Project In-Reply-To: References: <47CEB2C2.1010803@redhat.com> Message-ID: <47CF3ABD.40504@redhat.com> Frank Ch. Eigler wrote: > Bryan Che writes: > >> [...] Ideally, we could include the client software for computation >> as part of Fedora distributions and build out a large, million+ node >> open grid for things like Fedora infrastructure tasks, scientific >> computing, or socially-beneficial work. [...] > > Could you say a word or two about the security implications of this > proposal? How would you convince a random fedora user that installing > this is safe to his machine / data / resources? > > - FChE I'll tell you what can be done to help keep the a user's machine safe, but not how to convince a random Fedora user. There are at least two possible approaches here: restrict applications or use virtualization. They both depend on what you want to run on your system and who you trust. The first possibility would be to restrict execution of only programs that you approve, potentially those packaged and distributed by the Fedora community. For instance, if you were donating CPU cycles for building Fedora packages you may only want to let mock run on your system. You'd be trusting the Fedora community to provide both a mock implementation that was not malicious and input to mock that was not malicious. The second possibility would be to restrict execution to within a virtual machine, for as much as you are willing to trust a VM as a security container. For instance, you could allow anyone to execute any program they wanted on your system except you really only let them run in a dedicated Xen domU on your system, which may or may not have network access. SELinux is also of interest here. There is an internship available (IRC37406) to investigate policies for not only controlling what Condor daemons are allowed to do but also what Condor jobs can do. Best, matt From mfarrellee+fedora at redhat.com Thu Mar 6 00:29:29 2008 From: mfarrellee+fedora at redhat.com (Matthew Farrellee) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 18:29:29 -0600 Subject: Proposal: Fedora@Home Project In-Reply-To: <1204748555.4141.97.camel@calliope.phig.org> References: <47CEB2C2.1010803@redhat.com> <1204735462.3447.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> <935ead450803050858w5873a16aya0db284cecb7c0f3@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910803050903k4367d004hd15933fc14aa2dd2@mail.gmail.com> <1204748555.4141.97.camel@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <47CF3AE9.1020300@redhat.com> Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > On Wed, 2008-03-05 at 08:03 -0900, Jeff Spaleta wrote: >> On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 7:58 AM, Jeffrey Ollie wrote: >>> Other than the obvious difficulties in determining what the carbon >>> cost of a kWH is for every location on the globe, that sounds like a >>> useful project in itself. >> If I use a handcrank on an OLPC as part of the grid.. is that negative >> carbon cost? > > During the daylight hours here in the Pacific central coast, my cycles > are solar powered. It would be cool, as part of Jesse's idea, to mark > my contributions to the grid to occur during specific hours. Heck, tie > it into the weather and reduce it 20% for cloud cover. :) It is possible, if you provide the appropriate data to Condor, to use its flexible matching mechanism (/matchmaking/ between jobs and execute nodes) to favor your machine during hours that it is being solar powered. Now cloud cover... Work is also underway to provide mechanisms to wake suspended or hibernated systems when jobs are available for the system. Thus letting you keep your system in a low power state until it can perform useful work. Best, matt From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Mar 6 10:51:46 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 16:21:46 +0530 Subject: Draft Proposal: Spin Submission and Approval Process In-Reply-To: <604aa7910803041420m1ef79d8cv97c92a8b9d4c9608@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910803041257x6546a8b8yd7bfa8f4a3b1febc@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910803041324w51181e25m5333f23cdae03619@mail.gmail.com> <47CDC5A0.6010206@fedoraproject.org> <604aa7910803041420m1ef79d8cv97c92a8b9d4c9608@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47CFCCC2.80007@fedoraproject.org> Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 12:56 PM, Rahul Sundaram > wrote: >> What purpose does bugzilla components for every spin serve? > > Patch submission for changes in kickstart logic. > > >> I would prefer >> some other medium for feedback/ requests on actual spin changes. > > 'Some other'... is pretty unspecific. Where would you prefer patches > for kickstart logic go? I haven't ever got patches but if it does happen, some email address is preferable. I am currently maintaining several accepted spins: games, xfce and about a dozen localized spins. Among these, I only maintain a couple of packages. Almost 100% of the changes happen within the actual packages and are not spin specific. My effort is spend in developing a kickstart file, determining package changes, channeling feedback from users, brainstorming ideas with the respective maintainers, testing the images and some minimal changes for the live cd environment. What I would prefer not to do is getting bugs filed against the spin when it should have been filed against individual packages. I am not sure how exactly to accomplish that. Rahul From stickster at gmail.com Thu Mar 6 14:19:39 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 09:19:39 -0500 Subject: Draft Proposal: Spin Submission and Approval Process In-Reply-To: <47CFCCC2.80007@fedoraproject.org> References: <604aa7910803041257x6546a8b8yd7bfa8f4a3b1febc@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910803041324w51181e25m5333f23cdae03619@mail.gmail.com> <47CDC5A0.6010206@fedoraproject.org> <604aa7910803041420m1ef79d8cv97c92a8b9d4c9608@mail.gmail.com> <47CFCCC2.80007@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1204813179.7241.49.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2008-03-06 at 16:21 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 12:56 PM, Rahul Sundaram > > wrote: > >> What purpose does bugzilla components for every spin serve? > > > > Patch submission for changes in kickstart logic. > > > > > >> I would prefer > >> some other medium for feedback/ requests on actual spin changes. > > > > 'Some other'... is pretty unspecific. Where would you prefer patches > > for kickstart logic go? > > I haven't ever got patches but if it does happen, some email address is > preferable. I am currently maintaining several accepted spins: games, > xfce and about a dozen localized spins. Among these, I only maintain a > couple of packages. Almost 100% of the changes happen within the actual > packages and are not spin specific. My effort is spend in developing a > kickstart file, determining package changes, channeling feedback from > users, brainstorming ideas with the respective maintainers, testing the > images and some minimal changes for the live cd environment. What I > would prefer not to do is getting bugs filed against the spin when it > should have been filed against individual packages. I am not sure how > exactly to accomplish that. I think deflecting unwanted bugs is probably not unique to your situation. :-) Reassigning to the right component and default owner is pretty easy when that happens. The right way to minimize -- as the Documentation Project discovered -- is to have a big, shiny notice next to wherever you're advertising bug-filing, indicating that unrelated problems should be filed against the right component. Here's some examples drawn from the Release Notes beet on "Feedback," for example, where we try to ensure that users are not filing general Fedora software bugs against the Release Notes: "IMPORTANT: Feedback for Release Notes Only -- This section concerns feedback on the release notes themselves. [later on...] Fill out a bug request using this template: [URL_here] - This link is ONLY for feedback on the release notes themselves. Refer to the admonition above for details." -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From katzj at redhat.com Thu Mar 6 14:43:59 2008 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 09:43:59 -0500 Subject: Draft Proposal: Spin Submission and Approval Process In-Reply-To: <47CFCCC2.80007@fedoraproject.org> References: <604aa7910803041257x6546a8b8yd7bfa8f4a3b1febc@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910803041324w51181e25m5333f23cdae03619@mail.gmail.com> <47CDC5A0.6010206@fedoraproject.org> <604aa7910803041420m1ef79d8cv97c92a8b9d4c9608@mail.gmail.com> <47CFCCC2.80007@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1204814639.10517.2.camel@aglarond.local> On Thu, 2008-03-06 at 16:21 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 12:56 PM, Rahul Sundaram > > wrote: > >> What purpose does bugzilla components for every spin serve? > > > > Patch submission for changes in kickstart logic. > > > > > >> I would prefer > >> some other medium for feedback/ requests on actual spin changes. > > > > 'Some other'... is pretty unspecific. Where would you prefer patches > > for kickstart logic go? > > I haven't ever got patches but if it does happen, some email address is > preferable. I am currently maintaining several accepted spins: games, > xfce and about a dozen localized spins. Among these, I only maintain a > couple of packages. Almost 100% of the changes happen within the actual > packages and are not spin specific. My effort is spend in developing a > kickstart file, determining package changes, channeling feedback from > users, brainstorming ideas with the respective maintainers, testing the > images and some minimal changes for the live cd environment. What I > would prefer not to do is getting bugs filed against the spin when it > should have been filed against individual packages. I am not sure how > exactly to accomplish that. Guess what? You can't. People file bugs in bugzilla. Heck, they file them against the wrong component all the time. It's just one of the facts of life of being a maintainer. And note that if you want some email address for filtering purposes, there are headers on every bugzilla mail including what component it's against. Jeremy From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Mar 6 18:45:33 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2008 00:15:33 +0530 Subject: Draft Proposal: Spin Submission and Approval Process In-Reply-To: <604aa7910803041257x6546a8b8yd7bfa8f4a3b1febc@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910803041257x6546a8b8yd7bfa8f4a3b1febc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47D03BCD.5090705@fedoraproject.org> Jeff Spaleta wrote: > This draft covers how new spins will be developed and released. It > does not yet cover the issue of updated spins which incorporate > updated packages. How/when are you planning on handling that? Your proposal doesn't seem to address the question of whether hosting for all accepted spins will be provided by the Fedora Project. My notes on that are at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/RahulSundaram/SpinsProcess Rahul From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Mar 6 19:49:54 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 10:49:54 -0900 Subject: Draft Proposal: Spin Submission and Approval Process In-Reply-To: <47CFCCC2.80007@fedoraproject.org> References: <604aa7910803041257x6546a8b8yd7bfa8f4a3b1febc@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910803041324w51181e25m5333f23cdae03619@mail.gmail.com> <47CDC5A0.6010206@fedoraproject.org> <604aa7910803041420m1ef79d8cv97c92a8b9d4c9608@mail.gmail.com> <47CFCCC2.80007@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <604aa7910803061149s7455cbdi472391c550a99c04@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 1:51 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > I haven't ever got patches but if it does happen, some email address is > preferable. How do you plan to expose your email address in the spins you maintain? I really don't think you want to do that... and yet.. we have to expose a communication medium for feedback with regard to spin issues (especially doing pre-release testing when kickstart logic might need to be adjusted). And do you expect to always be the sole maintainer for all the spins ks files you currently maintain? What happens if unexpectedly need to stop working on these spins and other people need to step in as maintainer in the run up to F10? Can you be sure that you will forward the personal emails you got to the next maintainer? A personal email address doesn't scale in a collaboration. I really don't see a compelling reason to have spin kickstart files be treated differently in terms of how we drive feedback if we a preparing a process where you as an individual are not the primary maintainer of a majority of contributed spins. We are trying to prepare for that sort of future with regards to spin development right? > What I would prefer not to do is getting bugs filed against the spin when it > should have been filed against individual packages. I am not sure how > exactly to accomplish that. If you expose an email address instead of a bug component, you'll get misfiled feedback in your email instead of bugzilla. Misfiled information will happen regardless of the communication medium you choose to expose for feedback. At least with bugzilla, there is a mechanism by which to shuffle bugs around...that other people like triagers can deal with. But if you are driving feedback from users to email...well...no one else can help re-catalog the misfiled ones and they just get dropped on the floor. -jef From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Mar 6 20:04:34 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2008 01:34:34 +0530 Subject: Draft Proposal: Spin Submission and Approval Process In-Reply-To: <604aa7910803061149s7455cbdi472391c550a99c04@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910803041257x6546a8b8yd7bfa8f4a3b1febc@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910803041324w51181e25m5333f23cdae03619@mail.gmail.com> <47CDC5A0.6010206@fedoraproject.org> <604aa7910803041420m1ef79d8cv97c92a8b9d4c9608@mail.gmail.com> <47CFCCC2.80007@fedoraproject.org> <604aa7910803061149s7455cbdi472391c550a99c04@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47D04E52.7080008@fedoraproject.org> Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 1:51 AM, Rahul Sundaram > wrote: >> I haven't ever got patches but if it does happen, some email address is >> preferable. > > How do you plan to expose your email address in the spins you > maintain? Note that I didn't say mine. It can be a generic group which reaches a number of other people too. > But if you are driving feedback from users to email...well...no one > else can help re-catalog the misfiled ones and they just get dropped > on the floor. I still consider the danger of misfiled bug reports rather high and since no one has a good solution to that problem, go ahead with whatever you have proposed. Rahul From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Mar 6 20:11:01 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 11:11:01 -0900 Subject: Draft Proposal: Spin Submission and Approval Process In-Reply-To: <47D03BCD.5090705@fedoraproject.org> References: <604aa7910803041257x6546a8b8yd7bfa8f4a3b1febc@mail.gmail.com> <47D03BCD.5090705@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <604aa7910803061211s4c259e69kea1484233fa7a844@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 9:45 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > This draft covers how new spins will be developed and released. It > > does not yet cover the issue of updated spins which incorporate > > updated packages. > > How/when are you planning on handling that? I'm really not keen on handing down a detailed theoretical process from the Board concerning spin updates, assuming we know what the problems will be. I'm pretty sure there will be problems and I'm pretty sure that if we engineer a detailed process now it will solve the wrong ones. The original spin process proposal allows for updates to be proposed as frequently as one month. I haven't heard any feedback from releng as to whether or not this is going to be a theoretical problem. But until we have an update on the table to argue about I don't see the point in trying to be more specific. I pretty much assume the first spin update will cause problems and frustrations and we'll burn that bridge when we come to it. > Your proposal doesn't seem > to address the question of whether hosting for all accepted spins will > be provided by the Fedora Project. Sorry, it was implied that any spin that releng selects as part of "Release Selection" during each release period is going to have equal access to central hosting. So infrastructure tells us how much room we have for spins early in the release runup process. The becomes a hard limit on the number of spin images that can be hosted as part of the next Fedora release (including potential updates...which we can leave some estimated room for even if we don't how we are gonna do the updates yet). Releng makes release selection decisions such that the hard space limit is not violated, but is under no obligation to use all available space available. (And if I can get more people than jwb to agree to it... then the Board has the option to champion one spin per release period beyond those selected by releng. Though that's not in the draft because its an extra complication that can be discussed once we have consensus on what release selection process will look like. It doesn't fundamentally change how this should work, but it keeps future Boards invested in the release process.) -jef From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Mar 6 20:22:08 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2008 01:52:08 +0530 Subject: Draft Proposal: Spin Submission and Approval Process In-Reply-To: <604aa7910803061211s4c259e69kea1484233fa7a844@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910803041257x6546a8b8yd7bfa8f4a3b1febc@mail.gmail.com> <47D03BCD.5090705@fedoraproject.org> <604aa7910803061211s4c259e69kea1484233fa7a844@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47D05270.4030909@fedoraproject.org> Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 9:45 AM, Rahul Sundaram > wrote: >> Jeff Spaleta wrote: >> > This draft covers how new spins will be developed and released. It >> > does not yet cover the issue of updated spins which incorporate >> > updated packages. >> >> How/when are you planning on handling that? > > I'm really not keen on handing down a detailed theoretical process > from the Board concerning spin updates, assuming we know what the > problems will be. I'm pretty sure there will be problems and I'm > pretty sure that if we engineer a detailed process now it will solve > the wrong ones. > > The original spin process proposal allows for updates to be proposed > as frequently as one month. I haven't heard any feedback from releng > as to whether or not this is going to be a theoretical problem. But > until we have an update on the table to argue about I don't see the > point in trying to be more specific. I pretty much assume the first > spin update will cause problems and frustrations and we'll burn that > bridge when we come to it. Note that it is *not* a theoretical problem. I have long ago proposed a updates games spin and I really do want it solved asap. The localized spins that I proposed were accepted but it is also is stuck now waiting for the new process to be completed first. Since the question of hosting also interacts with the idea of updated spins, I would prefer we discuss everything together. Rahul From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Mar 7 20:01:56 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 11:01:56 -0900 Subject: Should we update our CodecBuddy wikipage with information concerning the patent enforcement occuring at CeBIT? Message-ID: <604aa7910803071201o3a682fc2u4abee7fe1563cda3@mail.gmail.com> So as seen in fedora planet posts, engadget has a series of articles now concerning mp3/mp4 patent enforcement activities at CeBIT in Germany. I think archiving a summary of these events and making them a part of our standard messaging concerning our software patent policy would be worthwhile. Too many people assume that the software patent issue is a US-specific issue, when its much more complicated than that. Being able to point individuals to enforcement activities outside the US would help re-enforce our concern about software patents as global issue. -jef From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Fri Mar 7 20:06:31 2008 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2008 15:06:31 -0500 Subject: Should we update our CodecBuddy wikipage with information concerning the patent enforcement occuring at CeBIT? In-Reply-To: <604aa7910803071201o3a682fc2u4abee7fe1563cda3@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910803071201o3a682fc2u4abee7fe1563cda3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1204920391.2083.73.camel@cutter> On Fri, 2008-03-07 at 11:01 -0900, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > So as seen in fedora planet posts, engadget has a series of articles > now concerning mp3/mp4 patent enforcement activities at CeBIT in > Germany. I think archiving a summary of these events and making them > a part of our standard messaging concerning our software patent policy > would be worthwhile. Too many people assume that the software patent > issue is a US-specific issue, when its much more complicated than > that. Being able to point individuals to enforcement activities > outside the US would help re-enforce our concern about software > patents as global issue. > +1. Letting more people know that the mp3 patent issues are real and that lo' and behold we were right all along would be good. -sv From jonstanley at gmail.com Sat Mar 8 02:10:29 2008 From: jonstanley at gmail.com (Jon Stanley) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 21:10:29 -0500 Subject: Should we update our CodecBuddy wikipage with information concerning the patent enforcement occuring at CeBIT? In-Reply-To: <1204920391.2083.73.camel@cutter> References: <604aa7910803071201o3a682fc2u4abee7fe1563cda3@mail.gmail.com> <1204920391.2083.73.camel@cutter> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 3:06 PM, seth vidal wrote: > +1. Letting more people know that the mp3 patent issues are real and > that lo' and behold we were right all along would be good. +500. Educating people wrt this is quite difficult, I'd like to have some great ammo in this regard. From bche at redhat.com Mon Mar 10 13:50:34 2008 From: bche at redhat.com (Bryan Che) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 09:50:34 -0400 Subject: Proposal: Fedora@Home Project In-Reply-To: <604aa7910803050850y7cd90832s6e2436768f122d58@mail.gmail.com> References: <47CEB2C2.1010803@redhat.com> <47CEB33F.7050108@gmail.com> <47CEBE85.9060409@redhat.com> <604aa7910803050850y7cd90832s6e2436768f122d58@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47D53CAA.2040506@redhat.com> Hi, discussion on this topic seems to have died down. What are the steps to get this project "approved" by the Fedora board and community? What are the steps to be able to promote this project? Is creating a SIG as Jeff suggests the next step? Thanks, Bryan Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 6:38 AM, Matthew Farrellee > wrote: >> The software is already packaged for F9. Initially, there is work to be >> done along the lines of easily enabling the client side for users. Long >> term, there is work to be done for handling NATs/firewalls, trusting >> results, and scaling up to the aforementioned "million+" node open grid. > > If most of the technology is already available and but needs to be > packaged up as part of Fedora, then it sounds like this could be > accomplished inside a SIG (Special Interest Group) > > First, create a SIG page in the wiki that gives some scope to the > task. Look at the Astronomy SIG wikipage for an example > > Next, identify the packages that are already in and packages that need > to get into the repository that support the task. Collect a group of > people to work on getting those packages in. Hold regularly scheduled > SIG meetings on irc to work on packaging. > > Then, Identify packages you feel need to be modified, and invite > individual maintainers to discuss necessary modifications with the > SIG. > > And while doing that if there is a missing tool set (like a high level > config tool), add a tools project to the Fedora hosted service, and > avoid using the word Fedora for the tool project's name. > > -jef > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board From gdk at redhat.com Mon Mar 10 13:55:03 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 09:55:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Proposal: Fedora@Home Project In-Reply-To: <47D53CAA.2040506@redhat.com> References: <47CEB2C2.1010803@redhat.com> <47CEB33F.7050108@gmail.com> <47CEBE85.9060409@redhat.com> <604aa7910803050850y7cd90832s6e2436768f122d58@mail.gmail.com> <47D53CAA.2040506@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Mar 2008, Bryan Che wrote: > Hi, discussion on this topic seems to have died down. What are the > steps to get this project "approved" by the Fedora board and community? > What are the steps to be able to promote this project? Is creating a > SIG as Jeff suggests the next step? A SIG is the next step. The nice thing about a SIG is that it doesn't require any "approval". You just make the wiki page, maybe request a mailing list, and Start Doing Stuff (tm). --g > Thanks, > > Bryan > > Jeff Spaleta wrote: >> On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 6:38 AM, Matthew Farrellee >> wrote: >>> The software is already packaged for F9. Initially, there is work to be >>> done along the lines of easily enabling the client side for users. Long >>> term, there is work to be done for handling NATs/firewalls, trusting >>> results, and scaling up to the aforementioned "million+" node open grid. >> >> If most of the technology is already available and but needs to be >> packaged up as part of Fedora, then it sounds like this could be >> accomplished inside a SIG (Special Interest Group) >> >> First, create a SIG page in the wiki that gives some scope to the >> task. Look at the Astronomy SIG wikipage for an example >> >> Next, identify the packages that are already in and packages that need >> to get into the repository that support the task. Collect a group of >> people to work on getting those packages in. Hold regularly scheduled >> SIG meetings on irc to work on packaging. >> >> Then, Identify packages you feel need to be modified, and invite >> individual maintainers to discuss necessary modifications with the >> SIG. >> >> And while doing that if there is a missing tool set (like a high level >> config tool), add a tools project to the Fedora hosted service, and >> avoid using the word Fedora for the tool project's name. >> >> -jef >> >> _______________________________________________ >> fedora-advisory-board mailing list >> fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com >> http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board > -- Greg DeKoenigsberg Community Development Manager Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255 "To whomsoever much hath been given... ...from him much shall be asked" From kwade at redhat.com Mon Mar 10 14:40:21 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 07:40:21 -0700 Subject: Proposal: Fedora@Home Project In-Reply-To: <47D53CAA.2040506@redhat.com> References: <47CEB2C2.1010803@redhat.com> <47CEB33F.7050108@gmail.com> <47CEBE85.9060409@redhat.com> <604aa7910803050850y7cd90832s6e2436768f122d58@mail.gmail.com> <47D53CAA.2040506@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1205160021.1101.30.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Mon, 2008-03-10 at 09:50 -0400, Bryan Che wrote: > Hi, discussion on this topic seems to have died down. Just a note to those who didn't notice, we brought a naming discussion to f-marketing-l. Matt F. and I were discussing the situation last week and realized we needed to abandon the @Home moniker for several reasons. So go give your input! http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-marketing-list/2008-March/msg00022.html -- Karsten Wade, Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Mon Mar 10 14:57:04 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 10:57:04 -0400 Subject: Proposal: Fedora@Home Project In-Reply-To: <1205160021.1101.30.camel@calliope.phig.org> References: <47CEB2C2.1010803@redhat.com> <47CEB33F.7050108@gmail.com> <47CEBE85.9060409@redhat.com> <604aa7910803050850y7cd90832s6e2436768f122d58@mail.gmail.com> <47D53CAA.2040506@redhat.com> <1205160021.1101.30.camel@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <1205161024.27990.79.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2008-03-10 at 07:40 -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > On Mon, 2008-03-10 at 09:50 -0400, Bryan Che wrote: > > Hi, discussion on this topic seems to have died down. > > Just a note to those who didn't notice, we brought a naming discussion > to f-marketing-l. Matt F. and I were discussing the situation last week > and realized we needed to abandon the @Home moniker for several reasons. > > So go give your input! > > http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-marketing-list/2008-March/msg00022.html Jeff had a great suggestion: "Trellis." Refer to the thread for details. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From foss.mailinglists at gmail.com Mon Mar 10 15:24:05 2008 From: foss.mailinglists at gmail.com (Sankarshan Mukhopadhyay) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 20:54:05 +0530 Subject: Proposal: Fedora@Home Project In-Reply-To: <47D53CAA.2040506@redhat.com> References: <47CEB2C2.1010803@redhat.com> <47CEB33F.7050108@gmail.com> <47CEBE85.9060409@redhat.com> <604aa7910803050850y7cd90832s6e2436768f122d58@mail.gmail.com> <47D53CAA.2040506@redhat.com> Message-ID: <47D55295.5030600@gmail.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Bryan Che wrote: | Hi, discussion on this topic seems to have died down. What are the | steps to get this project "approved" by the Fedora board and community? | What are the steps to be able to promote this project? Is creating a | SIG as Jeff suggests the next step? [1] Form a SIG [2] Get a page up on the wiki guiding potential contributors into areas to contribute [3] Do the magic foo on fedorahosted (if not already done) [4] Rock n Roll - -- http://www.gutenberg.net - Fine literature digitally re-published http://www.plos.org - Public Library of Science http://www.creativecommons.org - Flexible copyright for creative work -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFH1VKVXQZpNTcrCzMRAkx+AKCOfP0NlRMTnT+LcbRUZyTBLStIbwCfQHXI dbu4dRzSjAGr435PGs14gQQ= =WcGL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jspaleta at gmail.com Mon Mar 10 17:04:27 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 09:04:27 -0800 Subject: Proposal: Fedora@Home Project In-Reply-To: <47D53CAA.2040506@redhat.com> References: <47CEB2C2.1010803@redhat.com> <47CEB33F.7050108@gmail.com> <47CEBE85.9060409@redhat.com> <604aa7910803050850y7cd90832s6e2436768f122d58@mail.gmail.com> <47D53CAA.2040506@redhat.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910803101004i3ec801b2we2c3f77e321c57b@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 5:50 AM, Bryan Che wrote: > Hi, discussion on this topic seems to have died down. What are the > steps to get this project "approved" by the Fedora board and community? The only thing the board really needs to 'approve' right now is the use of the Fedora name. And perhaps make recommendations to infrastructure if you end up asking for some sort of centralized service be run as part of your project. Have you talked to the fedora infrastructure team about what it would take in terms of resources to host an MRG instance? And it's not clear to me yet that this project should be using the Fedora name at all. We want to discourage using Fedora as part of in any novel software project that is hoped to be adopted beyond the Fedora project. If you want any software tools you build to be widely adopted, you should be hosted as its own software project and neutrally named. Which Fedora will then use in a Fedora branded implementation, like any other organization could choose to do. > What are the steps to be able to promote this project? Is creating a > SIG as Jeff suggests the next step? A SIG page would be extremely helpful to your cause. It will be sort of an at-a-glance for people wanting an overview of the project scope, what you are currently working on, what's been accomplished and what's left to do. Preferably with some timelines as to when you expect to see a testable service up and running, so the Board knows when to take a closer look at it again and give some feedback. But I keep coming back to the same question. If the goal of this project is putting together grid of clients using open technology, will this grid be explicitly made up solely of Fedora clients? Will the cpu cycles be directed for Fedora internal needs or for generally interesting computational problems? Once the technology is built and accessible your SIG will end up having to craft some policy concerning how grid tasking will be handled. -jef From gdk at redhat.com Mon Mar 10 17:39:08 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 13:39:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Proposal: Fedora@Home Project In-Reply-To: <604aa7910803101004i3ec801b2we2c3f77e321c57b@mail.gmail.com> References: <47CEB2C2.1010803@redhat.com> <47CEB33F.7050108@gmail.com> <47CEBE85.9060409@redhat.com> <604aa7910803050850y7cd90832s6e2436768f122d58@mail.gmail.com> <47D53CAA.2040506@redhat.com> <604aa7910803101004i3ec801b2we2c3f77e321c57b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Mar 2008, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > But I keep coming back to the same question. If the goal of this > project is putting together grid of clients using open technology, will > this grid be explicitly made up solely of Fedora clients? Will the cpu > cycles be directed for Fedora internal needs or for generally > interesting computational problems? Once the technology is built and > accessible your SIG will end up having to craft some policy concerning > how grid tasking will be handled. +1 to: a set of brand-neutral projects that drive code development a Fedora-branded distro that bring the tools together a Fedora-branded instantiation using Fedora infrastructure --g -- Greg DeKoenigsberg Community Development Manager Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255 "To whomsoever much hath been given... ...from him much shall be asked" From bche at redhat.com Mon Mar 10 18:32:43 2008 From: bche at redhat.com (Bryan Che) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 14:32:43 -0400 Subject: Proposal: Fedora@Home Project In-Reply-To: References: <47CEB2C2.1010803@redhat.com> <47CEB33F.7050108@gmail.com> <47CEBE85.9060409@redhat.com> <604aa7910803050850y7cd90832s6e2436768f122d58@mail.gmail.com> <47D53CAA.2040506@redhat.com> <604aa7910803101004i3ec801b2we2c3f77e321c57b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47D57ECB.5030807@redhat.com> > +1 to: > a set of brand-neutral projects that drive code development We are doing most of this work upstream in the Condor community. So, the development work is not Fedora-branded. > a Fedora-branded distro that bring the tools together Do you mean a custom Fedora spin? I'd love eventually to have this as a first-boot option on a standard Fedora distribution where users can opt-in to donating CPU cycles. > a Fedora-branded instantiation using Fedora infrastructure To clarify: if we host the live scheduler at Fedora, would we still brand this as a Fedora project even if we support having other platforms donate CPU cycles? Thanks, Bryan > > --g > From jspaleta at gmail.com Mon Mar 10 18:45:42 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 10:45:42 -0800 Subject: Proposal: Fedora@Home Project In-Reply-To: <47D57ECB.5030807@redhat.com> References: <47CEB2C2.1010803@redhat.com> <47CEB33F.7050108@gmail.com> <47CEBE85.9060409@redhat.com> <604aa7910803050850y7cd90832s6e2436768f122d58@mail.gmail.com> <47D53CAA.2040506@redhat.com> <604aa7910803101004i3ec801b2we2c3f77e321c57b@mail.gmail.com> <47D57ECB.5030807@redhat.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910803101145n794578c1gd611b83b871bc487@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 10:32 AM, Bryan Che wrote: > We are doing most of this work upstream in the Condor community. So, > the development work is not Fedora-branded. Great! > Do you mean a custom Fedora spin? I'd love eventually to have this as a > first-boot option on a standard Fedora distribution where users can > opt-in to donating CPU cycles. That sort of discussion is a ways out I think, but its probably appropriate as a vision statement in your SIGs page. > To clarify: if we host the live scheduler at Fedora, would we still > brand this as a Fedora project even if we support having other platforms > donate CPU cycles? An actual scheduler service that runs on Fedora project infrastructure... yes I would support branding it as a Fedora project. Since I've no idea what is needed to actual host a scheduler, you'll have to have a discussion with infrastructure concerning required resources and then bring a summary of that discussion back to fab. I'd want to know what the resource burn for a scheduler is expected to be. If we are doing a scientific task initially, do we have to commit to storing a large data or results set on Fedora infrastructure as well as the scheduler? -jef From stickster at gmail.com Mon Mar 10 19:29:18 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 19:29:18 +0000 Subject: Proposal: Fedora@Home Project In-Reply-To: <604aa7910803101145n794578c1gd611b83b871bc487@mail.gmail.com> References: <47CEB2C2.1010803@redhat.com> <47CEB33F.7050108@gmail.com> <47CEBE85.9060409@redhat.com> <604aa7910803050850y7cd90832s6e2436768f122d58@mail.gmail.com> <47D53CAA.2040506@redhat.com> <604aa7910803101004i3ec801b2we2c3f77e321c57b@mail.gmail.com> <47D57ECB.5030807@redhat.com> <604aa7910803101145n794578c1gd611b83b871bc487@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1205177358.27990.179.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2008-03-10 at 10:45 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > Do you mean a custom Fedora spin? I'd love eventually to have this as a > > first-boot option on a standard Fedora distribution where users can > > opt-in to donating CPU cycles. > > That sort of discussion is a ways out I think, but its probably > appropriate as a vision statement in your SIGs page. +1. > > To clarify: if we host the live scheduler at Fedora, would we still > > brand this as a Fedora project even if we support having other platforms > > donate CPU cycles? > > > An actual scheduler service that runs on Fedora project > infrastructure... yes I would support branding it as a Fedora project. > Since I've no idea what is needed to actual host a scheduler, you'll > have to have a discussion with infrastructure concerning required > resources and then bring a summary of that discussion back to fab. > I'd want to know what the resource burn for a scheduler is expected to > be. If we are doing a scientific task initially, do we have to commit > to storing a large data or results set on Fedora infrastructure as > well as the scheduler? Even though this is a longer-term issue too, this is a good point: that Fedora infrastructure doesn't come from thin air -- it all costs money and people-time (some paid, some volunteer) to deploy and maintain. Depending on the taskings and the number of clients, this can be a pretty demanding load. As part of the long-term SIG vision it would also be appropriate to think about where to get funding/equipment/storage to support the eventual roll-out, pursuant to the goals you hope to achieve at that time. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From bche at redhat.com Mon Mar 10 21:16:21 2008 From: bche at redhat.com (Bryan Che) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 17:16:21 -0400 Subject: Proposal: Fedora@Home Project In-Reply-To: <604aa7910803101004i3ec801b2we2c3f77e321c57b@mail.gmail.com> References: <47CEB2C2.1010803@redhat.com> <47CEB33F.7050108@gmail.com> <47CEBE85.9060409@redhat.com> <604aa7910803050850y7cd90832s6e2436768f122d58@mail.gmail.com> <47D53CAA.2040506@redhat.com> <604aa7910803101004i3ec801b2we2c3f77e321c57b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47D5A525.7020701@redhat.com> > But I keep coming back to the same question. If the goal of this > project is putting together grid of clients using open technology, > will this grid be explicitly made up solely of Fedora clients? Will > the cpu cycles be directed for Fedora internal needs or for generally > interesting computational problems? Once the technology is built and > accessible your SIG will end up having to craft some policy > concerning how grid tasking will be handled. I don't think we need to limit this to Fedora clients as Condor supports clients across a variety of platforms. But, I would expect that if we can make the clients a part of a standard Fedora distribution, we would have substantially more Fedora clients than other platforms. Also, it may be useful to start with Fedora in the beginning to keep the scope of the work smaller and manageable. I think we should start with Fedora infrastructure needs and then expand to other computational problems. Getting it right first for Fedora will give us a good foundation for adding other projects. Bryan From jspaleta at gmail.com Mon Mar 10 22:16:50 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 14:16:50 -0800 Subject: Proposal: Fedora@Home Project In-Reply-To: <47D5A525.7020701@redhat.com> References: <47CEB2C2.1010803@redhat.com> <47CEB33F.7050108@gmail.com> <47CEBE85.9060409@redhat.com> <604aa7910803050850y7cd90832s6e2436768f122d58@mail.gmail.com> <47D53CAA.2040506@redhat.com> <604aa7910803101004i3ec801b2we2c3f77e321c57b@mail.gmail.com> <47D5A525.7020701@redhat.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910803101516v31641519t1b98837c093cbe44@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 1:16 PM, Bryan Che wrote: > I think we should start with Fedora infrastructure needs and then expand > to other computational problems. Getting it right first for Fedora will > give us a good foundation for adding other projects. I'm not sure I have a good grasp on where we could reasonably employ grids that benefits any ongoing internal work. My understanding is that we aren't straining our existing buildhost infrastructure, so its not clear there is a need here to farm out builds and then send the binaries back over the wire. Do we have an internal need identified that could leverage a grid of cpu time? I'm not even sure I remember seeing anyone complain yet. Maybe there's a real interesting case for this for secondary arches...if we had cross compiler tools so idle client pc time could be use to help build arm/sparc/etc packages. I'm just not sure we've got an interesting internal need for idle cpu cycles. I see this being more interesting as a way to have Fedora as a community interact with outside computing efforts. Off the top of my head, let's say we had this infrastructure up and running. Could we reach out to the blender community and work with them by offering the Fedora grid to help render scenes of another community funded animated film? -jef"I hope Greg is reading this"spaleta From gdk at redhat.com Mon Mar 10 22:26:57 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 18:26:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Proposal: Fedora@Home Project In-Reply-To: <604aa7910803101516v31641519t1b98837c093cbe44@mail.gmail.com> References: <47CEB2C2.1010803@redhat.com> <47CEB33F.7050108@gmail.com> <47CEBE85.9060409@redhat.com> <604aa7910803050850y7cd90832s6e2436768f122d58@mail.gmail.com> <47D53CAA.2040506@redhat.com> <604aa7910803101004i3ec801b2we2c3f77e321c57b@mail.gmail.com> <47D5A525.7020701@redhat.com> <604aa7910803101516v31641519t1b98837c093cbe44@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Mar 2008, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > I see this being more interesting as a way to have Fedora as a > community interact with outside computing efforts. Off the top of my > head, let's say we had this infrastructure up and running. Could we > reach out to the blender community and work with them by offering the > Fedora grid to help render scenes of another community funded animated > film? > > -jef"I hope Greg is reading this"spaleta Greg is reading this. But Greg doesn't understand enough to be useful. So maybe someone can draw me a picture, or point me to a previously drawn picture that I may have studiously ignored. The picture should answer these questions: 1. What does a developer need to do to make an application "grid aware"? 2. What does a user need to do to farm out activity to the grid? 3. What application could be a test case for this grid functionality? --g -- Greg DeKoenigsberg Community Development Manager Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255 "To whomsoever much hath been given... ...from him much shall be asked" From stickster at gmail.com Mon Mar 10 23:17:24 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 19:17:24 -0400 Subject: Proposal: Fedora@Home Project In-Reply-To: References: <47CEB2C2.1010803@redhat.com> <47CEB33F.7050108@gmail.com> <47CEBE85.9060409@redhat.com> <604aa7910803050850y7cd90832s6e2436768f122d58@mail.gmail.com> <47D53CAA.2040506@redhat.com> <604aa7910803101004i3ec801b2we2c3f77e321c57b@mail.gmail.com> <47D5A525.7020701@redhat.com> <604aa7910803101516v31641519t1b98837c093cbe44@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1205191044.4555.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2008-03-10 at 18:26 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > On Mon, 10 Mar 2008, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > > I see this being more interesting as a way to have Fedora as a > > community interact with outside computing efforts. Off the top of my > > head, let's say we had this infrastructure up and running. Could we > > reach out to the blender community and work with them by offering the > > Fedora grid to help render scenes of another community funded animated > > film? > > > > -jef"I hope Greg is reading this"spaleta > > Greg is reading this. > > But Greg doesn't understand enough to be useful. So maybe someone can > draw me a picture, or point me to a previously drawn picture that I may > have studiously ignored. The picture should answer these questions: > > 1. What does a developer need to do to make an application "grid aware"? Sometimes nothing; pieces built around the application include the parameters needed for a particular work unit of the application. Sometimes lots. Hopefully this is one of the former cases. > 2. What does a user need to do to farm out activity to the grid? Again, depends highly on the implementation, but often it consists of nothing more than delivering executables to an interface and then telling that interface how to parameterize the runs. > 3. What application could be a test case for this grid functionality? Blender or povray are great test cases since you can chunk up a scene as desired and have separate processors work independently on their chunks. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Mon Mar 10 23:28:02 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 15:28:02 -0800 Subject: Proposal: Fedora@Home Project In-Reply-To: <1205191044.4555.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <47CEB2C2.1010803@redhat.com> <47CEB33F.7050108@gmail.com> <47CEBE85.9060409@redhat.com> <604aa7910803050850y7cd90832s6e2436768f122d58@mail.gmail.com> <47D53CAA.2040506@redhat.com> <604aa7910803101004i3ec801b2we2c3f77e321c57b@mail.gmail.com> <47D5A525.7020701@redhat.com> <604aa7910803101516v31641519t1b98837c093cbe44@mail.gmail.com> <1205191044.4555.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <604aa7910803101628s16b0c403t66980124d72b9188@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 3:17 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > 3. What application could be a test case for this grid functionality? > > Blender or povray are great test cases since you can chunk up a scene as > desired and have separate processors work independently on their chunks. reading the condor site they've already got hooks into maya for exactly this sort of thing. I mentioned blender because we have a relationship with people in the community, a relationship worth building on if we can. The key here..is being about 'chunk' the work. I could probably come up with all sorts of interesting scientific numerical studies which just amount to running the same calculations over and over again with slightly different parameters that would work fine in a a Fedora grid. Processing images captured from a network of robotic telescopes for example. But I'm not sure we've got anything internally as a project that makes use of a grid beyond a proof of principle. Sure we could do packages across a grid, but that's bound to be limited by bandwidth more than cpu I'm not sure its a big win compared to the effort to get it working as part of the build system. But what the hell do i know anyways. -jef From stickster at gmail.com Tue Mar 11 00:29:51 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 20:29:51 -0400 Subject: Proposal: Fedora@Home Project In-Reply-To: <604aa7910803101516v31641519t1b98837c093cbe44@mail.gmail.com> References: <47CEB2C2.1010803@redhat.com> <47CEB33F.7050108@gmail.com> <47CEBE85.9060409@redhat.com> <604aa7910803050850y7cd90832s6e2436768f122d58@mail.gmail.com> <47D53CAA.2040506@redhat.com> <604aa7910803101004i3ec801b2we2c3f77e321c57b@mail.gmail.com> <47D5A525.7020701@redhat.com> <604aa7910803101516v31641519t1b98837c093cbe44@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1205195391.4555.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2008-03-10 at 14:16 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 1:16 PM, Bryan Che wrote: > > I think we should start with Fedora infrastructure needs and then expand > > to other computational problems. Getting it right first for Fedora will > > give us a good foundation for adding other projects. > > I'm not sure I have a good grasp on where we could reasonably employ > grids that benefits any ongoing internal work. My understanding is > that we aren't straining our existing buildhost infrastructure, so its > not clear there is a need here to farm out builds and then send the > binaries back over the wire. Do we have an internal need identified > that could leverage a grid of cpu time? I'm not even sure I remember > seeing anyone complain yet. Maybe there's a real interesting case for > this for secondary arches...if we had cross compiler tools so idle > client pc time could be use to help build arm/sparc/etc packages. I'm > just not sure we've got an interesting internal need for idle cpu > cycles. I mentioned something like this in preliminary discussions with Bryan, so yeah, this could be possible. There are some security details that would probably be pretty hairy to figure out -- not the least of which is, how do you keep someone who owns a CPU as root from messing with your builds or data? -- but who knows, it might be possible. > I see this being more interesting as a way to have Fedora as a > community interact with outside computing efforts. Off the top of my > head, let's say we had this infrastructure up and running. Could we > reach out to the blender community and work with them by offering the > Fedora grid to help render scenes of another community funded animated > film? That's such a good idea, you get a hug. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From bche at redhat.com Tue Mar 11 13:55:47 2008 From: bche at redhat.com (Bryan Che) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 09:55:47 -0400 Subject: Proposal: Fedora@Home Project In-Reply-To: <47D53CAA.2040506@redhat.com> References: <47CEB2C2.1010803@redhat.com> <47CEB33F.7050108@gmail.com> <47CEBE85.9060409@redhat.com> <604aa7910803050850y7cd90832s6e2436768f122d58@mail.gmail.com> <47D53CAA.2040506@redhat.com> Message-ID: <47D68F63.50706@redhat.com> I've been trying to create a login at the Fedora wiki, but I keep getting an Internal Server Error. I e-mailed sysadmin-devel at redhat.com yesterday as the error page suggested but haven't seen a response yet. Does anyone know if this issue is being investigated? Thanks, Bryan Bryan Che wrote: > Hi, discussion on this topic seems to have died down. What are the > steps to get this project "approved" by the Fedora board and community? > What are the steps to be able to promote this project? Is creating a > SIG as Jeff suggests the next step? > > Thanks, > > Bryan > > Jeff Spaleta wrote: >> On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 6:38 AM, Matthew Farrellee >> wrote: >>> The software is already packaged for F9. Initially, there is work to be >>> done along the lines of easily enabling the client side for users. Long >>> term, there is work to be done for handling NATs/firewalls, trusting >>> results, and scaling up to the aforementioned "million+" node open >>> grid. >> >> If most of the technology is already available and but needs to be >> packaged up as part of Fedora, then it sounds like this could be >> accomplished inside a SIG (Special Interest Group) >> >> First, create a SIG page in the wiki that gives some scope to the >> task. Look at the Astronomy SIG wikipage for an example >> >> Next, identify the packages that are already in and packages that need >> to get into the repository that support the task. Collect a group of >> people to work on getting those packages in. Hold regularly scheduled >> SIG meetings on irc to work on packaging. >> >> Then, Identify packages you feel need to be modified, and invite >> individual maintainers to discuss necessary modifications with the >> SIG. >> >> And while doing that if there is a missing tool set (like a high level >> config tool), add a tools project to the Fedora hosted service, and >> avoid using the word Fedora for the tool project's name. >> >> -jef >> >> _______________________________________________ >> fedora-advisory-board mailing list >> fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com >> http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board From stickster at gmail.com Tue Mar 11 14:24:39 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 14:24:39 +0000 Subject: Proposal: Fedora@Home Project In-Reply-To: <47D68F63.50706@redhat.com> References: <47CEB2C2.1010803@redhat.com> <47CEB33F.7050108@gmail.com> <47CEBE85.9060409@redhat.com> <604aa7910803050850y7cd90832s6e2436768f122d58@mail.gmail.com> <47D53CAA.2040506@redhat.com> <47D68F63.50706@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1205245479.3965.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2008-03-11 at 09:55 -0400, Bryan Che wrote: > I've been trying to create a login at the Fedora wiki, but I keep > getting an Internal Server Error. I e-mailed sysadmin-devel at redhat.com > yesterday as the error page suggested but haven't seen a response yet. > Does anyone know if this issue is being investigated? We have spurious problems with the wiki from time to time. The software chosen for our wiki long ago, MoinMoin, has proven unable to scale well with our healthy contributor growth. Our Infrastructure team is looking to migrate to MediaWiki, but this will probably not happen until post-Fedora 9 release. I'm not sure where the "sysadmin-devel at redhat.com" comes from, but I've asked them over at #fedora-admin to change the error message to reflect the right address. The wiki may be acting better now. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From gdk at redhat.com Tue Mar 11 17:18:32 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 13:18:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora and Google search: the final report Message-ID: This represents my final report on this matter. My conclusion: it's not practical to pursue a relationship between Fedora and Google at this time, for the following reasons: 1. RED HAT BEARS THE LEGAL RISKS FOR FEDORA. As much as Red Hat has worked to create an independent governance model for the Fedora Project, in the final analysis, Fedora is a property of Red Hat. This means that any deal made between Fedora and a third party *must* be agreed upon by Red Hat legal. 2. THE BOILERPLATE CONTACT FOR GOOGLE'S CUSTOM SEARCH ENGINE (CSE) IS TOO RISKY FOR RED HAT LEGAL TO ACCEPT. The terms and conditions for the Google CSE program (http://www.google.com/coop/docs/cse/tos.html) are pretty onerous. The biggest sticking point for Red Hat lawyers is Section 5, in which Google demands unlimited indemnification. Negotiations to resolve this clause have been unsuccessful. 3. MECHANISMS LIKE THE FIREFOX SEARCH BAR ARE SPECIFICALLY EXCLUDED FROM THE GOOGLE CSE. It seems like there are two potential sources of revenue for Fedora in Firefox: the start page (which would probably be low dollar) and the search bar (which would probably be high dollar). In actuality, though, the search bar is *specifically* excluded from the Google CSE agreement, in section 1.4, Appropriate Conduct. Quote: "You shall not, and shall not allow any third party to: ... (f) directly or indirectly access, launmch and/or activate the Service through or from, or otherwise incorporate the Service in, any Web site or other means other than the Site, and then only to the extent expressly permitted herein." Which means that unless we negotiate a deal with Google directly, we can't use the search bar to generate revenue at all. So that's it. There are no simple avenues to pursue at this point, which means that we are now open to pursue other options (wikia, fedorasearch being the two I like best). We should also consider whether we want to change the default search to use these, which might require a break from the Firefox brand. --g -- Greg DeKoenigsberg Community Development Manager Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255 "To whomsoever much hath been given... ...from him much shall be asked" From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Mar 11 17:26:56 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 09:26:56 -0800 Subject: Fedora and Google search: the final report In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <604aa7910803111026r30b25ce7r622cc9a3046f3471@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 9:18 AM, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > So that's it. There are no simple avenues to pursue at this point, which > means that we are now open to pursue other options (wikia, fedorasearch > being the two I like best). We should also consider whether we want to > change the default search to use these, which might require a break from > the Firefox brand. My understanding is that fedorasearch is going to be narrow in scope and not a general internet indexer. So with that in mind I don't think it makes sense to make it the default search engine in the browser. But I'd love to see it made available on our web properties and potentially as an included search engine in the pulldown menu for the toolbar search box in firefox. Can we add an additional search in the pulldown without losing the firefox brand? The wikia I'm not so familiar with, so I won't comment. -jef From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Mar 11 19:32:50 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 11:32:50 -0800 Subject: Draft Proposal: Spin Submission and Approval Process In-Reply-To: <47D05270.4030909@fedoraproject.org> References: <604aa7910803041257x6546a8b8yd7bfa8f4a3b1febc@mail.gmail.com> <47D03BCD.5090705@fedoraproject.org> <604aa7910803061211s4c259e69kea1484233fa7a844@mail.gmail.com> <47D05270.4030909@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <604aa7910803111232x3d0abf6au9a4a355ed7e02ffb@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 12:22 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Note that it is *not* a theoretical problem. I have long ago proposed a > updates games spin and I really do want it solved asap. Okay so was this proposed to releng or to fab and I missed it? > The localized > spins that I proposed were accepted but it is also is stuck now waiting > for the new process to be completed first. If you had the approval to use the Trademarks would that be enough to let you make use of localized spins for your needs? Or are you stuck on a technical issue that releng wanted you to solve? Or are you waiting to hear about hosting space? > Since the question of hosting also interacts with the idea of updated > spins, I would prefer we discuss everything together. I'll post a strawman for an updates spin policy in the next post: -jef From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Mar 11 19:37:02 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 11:37:02 -0800 Subject: Spin Updates Policy Draft Message-ID: <604aa7910803111237i2628bd4anf11a3678fc706213@mail.gmail.com> Spin Updates Policy Draft. This amends my previous Spin Policy Draft. Nothing in this draft should contradict or conflict with my previous draft proposal. 1) Release Update Spins are assumed as part of the Release Selection process by which releng chooses which spins to make part of a Fedora release and thus provide hosting for. To estimate space requirements, every released spin is assumed to consist of a a gold release and an updated image of maximum size of the target media (cd or dvd and perhaps bluray), unless the spin maintainer explicitly opts out of producing updates. If a spin needs multiple updates in a release, only the latest update image will be hosted. The update image must be named to distinguish it from the hosted gold release image. The gold release image will be hosted for the length of the Fedora Release. As part of the Release Selection process Spin maintainers may explicitly state that they will not produce updates, thus lowering the space requirements for that spin. Choosing to not produce updates may influence the decision on the number of spins to release when space is a constraining factor on the release selection process. 2) All updated spins must re-qualify for the Kickstart Pool through the same Pre-Approval Testing process outlined in my original draft. This is true for both hosted Release Update Spins as well as Community Contributed Spins which make up the kickstart pool. Any changes in the package set (names not version) should be explained and covered in the pre-approval process. Large changes to the packageset should be avoided as part of an update, but some changes are easily justified due to package re-naming or splitting. 3)Release Update Spins will not require releng review if they consist solely of updated packages, with no additional kickstart file changes. 4)Any kickstart file changes in a Release Update Spin trigger a releng review/approval. A document listing of the reason for each change should be provided. ( Hint: good use of bugzilla tickets here for documenting changes.) 5)update image size can not exceed the estimated maximum for the media image target (cdrom, dvd, etc). -jef From jkeating at redhat.com Tue Mar 11 19:46:11 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 15:46:11 -0400 Subject: Spin Updates Policy Draft In-Reply-To: <604aa7910803111237i2628bd4anf11a3678fc706213@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910803111237i2628bd4anf11a3678fc706213@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1205264771.3892.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2008-03-11 at 11:37 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > Spin Updates Policy Draft. This amends my previous Spin Policy Draft. > Nothing in this draft should contradict or conflict with my previous > draft proposal. > I think this is pretty good. Nothing makes me twitchy here. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- All my bits are free, are yours? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jwboyer at gmail.com Tue Mar 11 19:54:14 2008 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 14:54:14 -0500 Subject: Draft Proposal: Spin Submission and Approval Process In-Reply-To: <604aa7910803111232x3d0abf6au9a4a355ed7e02ffb@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910803041257x6546a8b8yd7bfa8f4a3b1febc@mail.gmail.com> <47D03BCD.5090705@fedoraproject.org> <604aa7910803061211s4c259e69kea1484233fa7a844@mail.gmail.com> <47D05270.4030909@fedoraproject.org> <604aa7910803111232x3d0abf6au9a4a355ed7e02ffb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080311145414.2d62afc9@hansolo.jdub.homelinux.org> On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 11:32:50 -0800 "Jeff Spaleta" wrote: > On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 12:22 PM, Rahul Sundaram > > The localized > > spins that I proposed were accepted but it is also is stuck now waiting > > for the new process to be completed first. > > If you had the approval to use the Trademarks would that be enough to > let you make use of localized spins for your needs? Or are you stuck > on a technical issue that releng wanted you to solve? Or are you > waiting to hear about hosting space? Waiting on some kind of outcome for the "what do we declare an official spin that gets hosted" question. Or what I've been calling "Featured Spins". Many people feel localized spins don't fit that category. josh From katzj at redhat.com Tue Mar 11 19:58:20 2008 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 15:58:20 -0400 Subject: Spin Updates Policy Draft In-Reply-To: <604aa7910803111237i2628bd4anf11a3678fc706213@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910803111237i2628bd4anf11a3678fc706213@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1205265500.10405.1.camel@aglarond.local> On Tue, 2008-03-11 at 11:37 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > Spin Updates Policy Draft. This amends my previous Spin Policy Draft. > Nothing in this draft should contradict or conflict with my previous > draft proposal. > > 1) Release Update Spins are assumed as part of the Release Selection > process by which releng chooses which spins to make part of a Fedora > release and thus provide hosting for. To estimate space requirements, > every released spin is assumed to consist of a a gold release and an > updated image of maximum size of the target media (cd or dvd and > perhaps bluray), unless the spin maintainer explicitly opts out of > producing updates. If a spin needs multiple updates in a release, > only the latest update image will be hosted. The update image must > be named to distinguish it from the hosted gold release image. The > gold release image will be hosted for the length of the Fedora > Release. Doesn't this also imply rel-eng taking on building said updates? Since the hosted spins were also being built by rel-eng AFAIK at this point. Also, what's the plan around testing of updated spins? As there's more stringent testing around spins that are going to be in the "release" than what we do for the more informal Kickstart Spin Pool Jeremy From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Mar 11 20:01:28 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 12:01:28 -0800 Subject: Spin Updates Policy Draft In-Reply-To: <1205264771.3892.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <604aa7910803111237i2628bd4anf11a3678fc706213@mail.gmail.com> <1205264771.3892.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <604aa7910803111301g2687b8b7n33f65aead5d2d506@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 11:46 AM, Jesse Keating wrote: > I think this is pretty good. Nothing makes me twitchy here. I need releng as a group to make sure they are okay with the review burden put forward here. I'm trying to strike a balance so that releng doesn't block an update unless there is a significant technical change. I sort of expect hosting will be an extremely limiting factor, and the space infrastructure puts forward as the hard limit on the size of the hosting space for torrents will put pressure on spin maintainers to opt out of creating updates. I want to be very clear on this even though I mentioned it in the Spin Release Policy Draft. I expect infrastructure to make a space allocation at the beginning of the release testing process which sets a hard limit on the space allocated for release images as part of a balanced view of total available data hosting resources. -jef From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Mar 11 20:19:18 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 12:19:18 -0800 Subject: Spin Updates Policy Draft In-Reply-To: <1205265500.10405.1.camel@aglarond.local> References: <604aa7910803111237i2628bd4anf11a3678fc706213@mail.gmail.com> <1205265500.10405.1.camel@aglarond.local> Message-ID: <604aa7910803111319h6022aaf2ob7a2a7e9d14bf62c@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 11:58 AM, Jeremy Katz wrote: > Doesn't this also imply rel-eng taking on building said updates? Since > the hosted spins were also being built by rel-eng AFAIK at this point. If the updates are Release Update Spins, yes they are to be built like Release Spins because they are going to be hosted. If they are to be contributed update spins, then they don't require hosting from Fedora and they can be built and hosted like any contributed spin in the Kickstart Pool. And yes, we still need to address Jesse's concerns about verifying that an externally built and hosted iso is not evil so we can point to it. But however we address that, that process can be applied to an updated spin that is meant to be contributed and not hosted by Fedora. > Also, what's the plan around testing of updated spins? As there's more > stringent testing around spins that are going to be in the "release" > than what we do for the more informal Kickstart Spin Pool The devil's in the details. I was trying to trigger exactly this sort of additional testing from releng if there was a significant technical change in the kickstart file or if the package payload changed. I'm having a hard time envisoning a releng concern that would not be caught by the peer review process that allows it to swim in the pool. I look at the peer review process as "this is broken or not" review. I look at the technical assessment in the Release Selection process which releng undertakes leading up to a release as "this works the right way or not" process. If the updated spin isn't changing the kickstart logic, and there are no significant deviations in the package manifest... are there going to be package update problems that won't be caught in a peer review? I guess it sort of depends on knowing what releng plans to do in terms of more extensive testing beyond which the peer review group can be tasked to do. -jef From katzj at redhat.com Tue Mar 11 20:32:01 2008 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 16:32:01 -0400 Subject: Spin Updates Policy Draft In-Reply-To: <604aa7910803111319h6022aaf2ob7a2a7e9d14bf62c@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910803111237i2628bd4anf11a3678fc706213@mail.gmail.com> <1205265500.10405.1.camel@aglarond.local> <604aa7910803111319h6022aaf2ob7a2a7e9d14bf62c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1205267521.10405.12.camel@aglarond.local> On Tue, 2008-03-11 at 12:19 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 11:58 AM, Jeremy Katz wrote: > > Doesn't this also imply rel-eng taking on building said updates? Since > > the hosted spins were also being built by rel-eng AFAIK at this point. > > If the updates are Release Update Spins, yes they are to be built like > Release Spins because they are going to be hosted. If they are to be > contributed update spins, then they don't require hosting from Fedora > and they can be built and hosted like any contributed spin in the > Kickstart Pool. So that means we need buy-in from rel-eng to do more building of images. I know that I personally don't have any spare cycles for doing so > > Also, what's the plan around testing of updated spins? As there's more > > stringent testing around spins that are going to be in the "release" > > than what we do for the more informal Kickstart Spin Pool > > The devil's in the details. I was trying to trigger exactly this sort > of additional testing from releng if there was a significant technical > change in the kickstart file or if the package payload changed. I'm > having a hard time envisoning a releng concern that would not be > caught by the peer review process that allows it to swim in the pool. The package payload _does_ change, though, as a result of updates. A new kernel version could end up needing changes to the way the initrd stuff works (has happened now more than once) as well as a multitude of other things which creep into updates. > I look at the peer review process as "this is broken or not" review. I > look at the technical assessment in the Release Selection process > which releng undertakes leading up to a release as "this works the > right way or not" process. If the updated spin isn't changing the > kickstart logic, and there are no significant deviations in the > package manifest... are there going to be package update problems that > won't be caught in a peer review? I guess it sort of depends on > knowing what releng plans to do in terms of more extensive testing > beyond which the peer review group can be tasked to do. The actual release of a *release spin* involves the full brunt of release testing. Some of the release criteria cover it (not entirely) and so we do a fair bit of testing to ensure that things like installing still works including some of the variety around that. The other thing that is almost guaranteed to be a problem in an "update" is getting things to fit. If it's a CD sized live image, then it's a constant struggle to fit. Jeremy From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Mar 11 20:38:08 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 12:38:08 -0800 Subject: Draft Proposal: Spin Submission and Approval Process In-Reply-To: <20080311145414.2d62afc9@hansolo.jdub.homelinux.org> References: <604aa7910803041257x6546a8b8yd7bfa8f4a3b1febc@mail.gmail.com> <47D03BCD.5090705@fedoraproject.org> <604aa7910803061211s4c259e69kea1484233fa7a844@mail.gmail.com> <47D05270.4030909@fedoraproject.org> <604aa7910803111232x3d0abf6au9a4a355ed7e02ffb@mail.gmail.com> <20080311145414.2d62afc9@hansolo.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: <604aa7910803111338k1c6c8ecar8bbf045ba75b7941@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 11:54 AM, Josh Boyer wrote: > Waiting on some kind of outcome for the "what do we declare an official > spin that gets hosted" question. Or what I've been calling "Featured > Spins". Many people feel localized spins don't fit that category. So here's the beauty of the proposal... that definition of "Featured Spins" can change with each release. And just as importantly.. I'm trying to setup a process that gives the final say as to what to host on Fedora infrastructure to releng by making those choices something we do as part of the release process and not a rolling set of choices. There's room to build more policy around this, as long as we keep things balanced with an eye towards diversity. For example if releng feels that 'desktop' and 'development' spins need to be commitments for every release, we can talk about that, and exempt them from the Selection Process... if we can get a commitment from infrastructure to set aside enough space for at least 4 spins. For each spin we enshrine, space for reviewable spin. This way we continue to have the ability to have a diverse set of spin concepts. In fact we might even be able to talk about a process of enshrining spins if they were selected for release 3 releases in a row or if we don't have the infrastructure to commit to enshrining them, then we kick them out and make room for another concept in the next release cycle. We simply are not going to have the resources to host a lot of localized spins. We just aren't.. not gonna happen....never ever. There's no way to be completely fair about it either. So since we can't be fair about it, then we have to be smart about it and host a particular localized spin for a particular release when it makes sense to do so for non technical reasons. Here's is where the Board's ability to choose one spin for Release can become very valuable to the Project. Let's say that next year we hold a Fudcon in Turkey, during the release of F12. The Board might very well decide to use its option to promote one spin from the pool to a Released Spin for F12 by choosing a Turkish localized Spin, that help promote Fedora at the event. -jef From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Mar 11 20:48:31 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 12:48:31 -0800 Subject: Spin Updates Policy Draft In-Reply-To: <1205267521.10405.12.camel@aglarond.local> References: <604aa7910803111237i2628bd4anf11a3678fc706213@mail.gmail.com> <1205265500.10405.1.camel@aglarond.local> <604aa7910803111319h6022aaf2ob7a2a7e9d14bf62c@mail.gmail.com> <1205267521.10405.12.camel@aglarond.local> Message-ID: <604aa7910803111348j5ecca738x4f5c4642779ef5@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 12:32 PM, Jeremy Katz wrote: > The actual release of a *release spin* involves the full brunt of > release testing. Some of the release criteria cover it (not entirely) > and so we do a fair bit of testing to ensure that things like installing > still works including some of the variety around that. Can the testing be described in enough detail so that a peer group can do this? If manpower is the underlying concern, I'm not against blocking on this until additional community manpower can be found to do it. But releng has to be okay with community doing the testing, blocking until installs works and then unblocking again. If this proposal goes through we're already going to be blocking on the establishment of a peer review to even get access to the trademarks. I would expect that its in that group's best interest to do the testing necessary for install issues to even get access to the trademarks. > The other thing that is almost guaranteed to be a problem in an "update" > is getting things to fit. If it's a CD sized live image, then it's a > constant struggle to fit. I tried to cover this. If the maintainers can't keep the update under the size limit of the target media original release.. full stop. -jef From jwboyer at gmail.com Tue Mar 11 22:31:43 2008 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 17:31:43 -0500 Subject: Spin Updates Policy Draft In-Reply-To: <1205267521.10405.12.camel@aglarond.local> References: <604aa7910803111237i2628bd4anf11a3678fc706213@mail.gmail.com> <1205265500.10405.1.camel@aglarond.local> <604aa7910803111319h6022aaf2ob7a2a7e9d14bf62c@mail.gmail.com> <1205267521.10405.12.camel@aglarond.local> Message-ID: <20080311173143.08a86933@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 16:32:01 -0400 Jeremy Katz wrote: > On Tue, 2008-03-11 at 12:19 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > On Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 11:58 AM, Jeremy Katz wrote: > > > Doesn't this also imply rel-eng taking on building said updates? Since > > > the hosted spins were also being built by rel-eng AFAIK at this point. > > > > If the updates are Release Update Spins, yes they are to be built like > > Release Spins because they are going to be hosted. If they are to be > > contributed update spins, then they don't require hosting from Fedora > > and they can be built and hosted like any contributed spin in the > > Kickstart Pool. > > So that means we need buy-in from rel-eng to do more building of images. > I know that I personally don't have any spare cycles for doing so Building images isn't all that time consuming. I was doing it for a while before we started this conversation and I'll do it again if needs be. Frankly, it's one of the few ways I feel I can actually contribute. Yay for more than 1 person in rel-eng ;) josh From matt at domsch.com Wed Mar 12 02:51:51 2008 From: matt at domsch.com (Matt Domsch) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 20:51:51 -0600 Subject: Fedora and Google search: the final report In-Reply-To: <604aa7910803111026r30b25ce7r622cc9a3046f3471@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910803111026r30b25ce7r622cc9a3046f3471@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080312025151.GA3086@domsch.com> On Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 09:26:56AM -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 9:18 AM, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > So that's it. There are no simple avenues to pursue at this point, which > > means that we are now open to pursue other options (wikia, fedorasearch > > being the two I like best). We should also consider whether we want to > > change the default search to use these, which might require a break from > > the Firefox brand. > > My understanding is that fedorasearch is going to be narrow in scope > and not a general internet indexer. So with that in mind I don't think > it makes sense to make it the default search engine in the browser. > But I'd love to see it made available on our web properties is that something the default Fedora CSS could do? From katzj at redhat.com Wed Mar 12 03:21:40 2008 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 23:21:40 -0400 Subject: Spin Updates Policy Draft In-Reply-To: <604aa7910803111348j5ecca738x4f5c4642779ef5@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910803111237i2628bd4anf11a3678fc706213@mail.gmail.com> <1205265500.10405.1.camel@aglarond.local> <604aa7910803111319h6022aaf2ob7a2a7e9d14bf62c@mail.gmail.com> <1205267521.10405.12.camel@aglarond.local> <604aa7910803111348j5ecca738x4f5c4642779ef5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1205292100.10697.17.camel@aglarond.local> On Tue, 2008-03-11 at 12:48 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 12:32 PM, Jeremy Katz wrote: > > The actual release of a *release spin* involves the full brunt of > > release testing. Some of the release criteria cover it (not entirely) > > and so we do a fair bit of testing to ensure that things like installing > > still works including some of the variety around that. > > Can the testing be described in enough detail so that a peer group can do this? > If manpower is the underlying concern, I'm not against blocking on > this until additional community manpower can be found to do it. But > releng has to be okay with community doing the testing, blocking until > installs works and then unblocking again. It's not releng that needs to be okay with it (well, to some extent) -- it's more QA. So wwoods is your man. > If this proposal goes > through we're already going to be blocking on the establishment of a > peer review to even get access to the trademarks. I would expect that > its in that group's best interest to do the testing necessary for > install issues to even get access to the trademarks. Doing the testing is one thing when you're talking about the initial release... I'll put money on corners being cut on updates. Not to mention that there are some live images that are "definitive" from a Fedora perspective, ie the ones that are all but guaranteed to be there from release to release. Having updates of a random spin (let's say FEL just for the sake of argument) but not of the ones that we _more_ push people to is very odd looking. And the driving force behind the more "definitive" spins isn't a SIG. It's the release process. And the people pushing the release process get a little busy pushing the next one ;-) > > The other thing that is almost guaranteed to be a problem in an "update" > > is getting things to fit. If it's a CD sized live image, then it's a > > constant struggle to fit. > > I tried to cover this. If the maintainers can't keep the update under > the size limit of the target media original release.. full stop. Then I guess I really don't have to worry since it's never actually going to be a concern. From one day to the next I can see size fluctuations of 10-20 megs :-) Jeremy From katzj at redhat.com Wed Mar 12 03:22:42 2008 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 23:22:42 -0400 Subject: Spin Updates Policy Draft In-Reply-To: <20080311173143.08a86933@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> References: <604aa7910803111237i2628bd4anf11a3678fc706213@mail.gmail.com> <1205265500.10405.1.camel@aglarond.local> <604aa7910803111319h6022aaf2ob7a2a7e9d14bf62c@mail.gmail.com> <1205267521.10405.12.camel@aglarond.local> <20080311173143.08a86933@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: <1205292162.10697.19.camel@aglarond.local> On Tue, 2008-03-11 at 17:31 -0500, Josh Boyer wrote: > On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 16:32:01 -0400 Jeremy Katz wrote: > > On Tue, 2008-03-11 at 12:19 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > > On Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 11:58 AM, Jeremy Katz wrote: > > > > Doesn't this also imply rel-eng taking on building said updates? Since > > > > the hosted spins were also being built by rel-eng AFAIK at this point. > > > > > > If the updates are Release Update Spins, yes they are to be built like > > > Release Spins because they are going to be hosted. If they are to be > > > contributed update spins, then they don't require hosting from Fedora > > > and they can be built and hosted like any contributed spin in the > > > Kickstart Pool. > > > > So that means we need buy-in from rel-eng to do more building of images. > > I know that I personally don't have any spare cycles for doing so > > Building images isn't all that time consuming. I was doing it for a > while before we started this conversation and I'll do it again if needs > be. Frankly, it's one of the few ways I feel I can actually > contribute. Yay for more than 1 person in rel-eng ;) Building them doesn't take long. Verifying is where the time is spent. Well, and getting things to fit on a CD.[1] Jeremy [1] Anyone want to guess what I've spent too many hours doing over the past week? From jwboyer at gmail.com Wed Mar 12 11:51:01 2008 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 06:51:01 -0500 Subject: Spin Updates Policy Draft In-Reply-To: <1205292162.10697.19.camel@aglarond.local> References: <604aa7910803111237i2628bd4anf11a3678fc706213@mail.gmail.com> <1205265500.10405.1.camel@aglarond.local> <604aa7910803111319h6022aaf2ob7a2a7e9d14bf62c@mail.gmail.com> <1205267521.10405.12.camel@aglarond.local> <20080311173143.08a86933@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <1205292162.10697.19.camel@aglarond.local> Message-ID: <20080312065101.7388acf9@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 23:22:42 -0400 Jeremy Katz wrote: > On Tue, 2008-03-11 at 17:31 -0500, Josh Boyer wrote: > > On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 16:32:01 -0400 Jeremy Katz wrote: > > > On Tue, 2008-03-11 at 12:19 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > > > On Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 11:58 AM, Jeremy Katz wrote: > > > > > Doesn't this also imply rel-eng taking on building said updates? Since > > > > > the hosted spins were also being built by rel-eng AFAIK at this point. > > > > > > > > If the updates are Release Update Spins, yes they are to be built like > > > > Release Spins because they are going to be hosted. If they are to be > > > > contributed update spins, then they don't require hosting from Fedora > > > > and they can be built and hosted like any contributed spin in the > > > > Kickstart Pool. > > > > > > So that means we need buy-in from rel-eng to do more building of images. > > > I know that I personally don't have any spare cycles for doing so > > > > Building images isn't all that time consuming. I was doing it for a > > while before we started this conversation and I'll do it again if needs > > be. Frankly, it's one of the few ways I feel I can actually > > contribute. Yay for more than 1 person in rel-eng ;) > > Building them doesn't take long. Verifying is where the time is spent. > Well, and getting things to fit on a CD.[1] 1) Getting things to fit on the CD (if that's the target size) should be done by the spin owner, not rel-eng. If it doesn't fit in the target size, rel-eng punts back to the owner. That's in Jeff's proposal. 2) You said building originally. Not building and verifying :) That being said, for "Featured/Hosted Spins" I thought we were doing to do the Beta period, which should still apply for updated spins. Much testing should ensure during that timeframe. josh From SteveD at redhat.com Wed Mar 12 13:40:40 2008 From: SteveD at redhat.com (Steve Dickson) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2008 09:40:40 -0400 Subject: IRC meeting feedback Message-ID: <47D7DD58.203@RedHat.com> At yesterday's board meeting, we talked about how well we thought last week's IRC meeting went. Overall, the generally consensus was things went well... a few tweaks here and there, but it was felt the meeting was productive. Now the question is, what did you think? Was it a productive use of your time? Anything we can improve on? The current thinking is to having these meetings once a month (the first Tuesday of the month), which means the next meeting would be April 1 (which should be fun! ;-) ) Is this too often maybe not often enough, or just about right? Finally the agenda of these meetings. The consensus was we would kept the agenda light to give more Q&A time. Does this make sense? Should the meeting be just all Q&A? Any comments/suggestions would be appreciated... tia, steved. From stickster at gmail.com Thu Mar 13 17:41:42 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 17:41:42 +0000 Subject: Making release a snap In-Reply-To: <47C3006A.8010408@redhat.com> References: <1203368690.30893.208.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47C3006A.8010408@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1205430102.3973.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2008-02-25 at 09:52 -0800, John Poelstra wrote: > Paul W. Frields said the following on 02/18/2008 01:04 PM Pacific Time: > > > If so, we could do something like the following: > > > > * Each supporting sub-project could offer a point person, maybe the > > chair, or a delegate who's been around the release cycle a couple times. > > * The point person gathers a proto-schedule of the sub-project's > > responsibilities. (This may already be done, which makes this person's > > job much easier -- just send a link.) > > * I've asked John Poelstra to collect these, take a first shot at > > organizing them, and send copies back to the whole group. This is a > > similar process to what he already managed successfully for the overall > > release plan, only a more granular scale targeting release day in > > particular. > > We've only heard from Infrastructure so far... I'll start knocking on > doors :) John did this, and I let this get buried in other work, apologies. Let's put together a conference call for release day planning. The motivation is discussed here: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2008-February/msg00136.html Some folks (like Infrastructure) probably have documented their "leading to release day" activities, but not all of us have. If we can use this session to brainstorm or even to raise issues about what each of our subprojects has found troublesome in past releases, we stand a good chance of fixing them for the Preview Release, not to mention the GA for F9. I am suggesting the following date/time: * 1900 UTC / 3:00pm EDT / 12:00pm Monday, March 17 I've made a matrix where you can fill out your availability if that doesn't work for you: * http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PaulWFrields/ReleaseDay I don't expect this to turn into a weekly phone call -- this is just to set the stage for future work in a more typical, asynchronous fashion via IRC or email. But the human bandwidth of a phone call is better so I'd just like to do a kickoff that way if possible. I'll circulate a call-in to the attendees once we have the date/time set. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mmcgrath at redhat.com Thu Mar 13 19:00:02 2008 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 14:00:02 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Making release a snap In-Reply-To: <1205430102.3973.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1203368690.30893.208.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47C3006A.8010408@redhat.com> <1205430102.3973.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Mar 2008, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > I am suggesting the following date/time: > * 1900 UTC / 3:00pm EDT / 12:00pm Monday, March 17 > I'm in training all next week but pretty much anyone in sysadmin-main can speak on my behalf about this. I'd suggest dennis, seth or jesse as they've all been through a couple of releases with the schedule we have listed. -Mike From stickster at gmail.com Thu Mar 13 19:17:38 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 19:17:38 +0000 Subject: Making release a snap In-Reply-To: <47D97AC0.7070507@fedoraproject.org> References: <1203368690.30893.208.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47C3006A.8010408@redhat.com> <1205430102.3973.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47D97AC0.7070507@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1205435858.3973.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2008-03-13 at 15:04 -0400, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > Paul W. Frields wrote: > > I am suggesting the following date/time: > > * 1900 UTC / 3:00pm EDT / 12:00pm Monday, March 17 > > That time works great for me... as long as you don't mind my phony Irish > brogue that day ;-) I'll be pouring $1 virtual draft Guinness, so no, I don't mind. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From duffy at fedoraproject.org Thu Mar 13 19:04:32 2008 From: duffy at fedoraproject.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn_Duffy?=) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 15:04:32 -0400 Subject: Making release a snap In-Reply-To: <1205430102.3973.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1203368690.30893.208.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47C3006A.8010408@redhat.com> <1205430102.3973.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <47D97AC0.7070507@fedoraproject.org> Paul W. Frields wrote: > I am suggesting the following date/time: > * 1900 UTC / 3:00pm EDT / 12:00pm Monday, March 17 That time works great for me... as long as you don't mind my phony Irish brogue that day ;-) ~m From stickster at gmail.com Thu Mar 13 19:42:04 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 19:42:04 +0000 Subject: Fedora and Google search: the final report In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1205437324.3973.69.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2008-03-11 at 13:18 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > This represents my final report on this matter. My conclusion: it's not > practical to pursue a relationship between Fedora and Google at this time, > for the following reasons: > > 1. RED HAT BEARS THE LEGAL RISKS FOR FEDORA. > > As much as Red Hat has worked to create an independent governance model > for the Fedora Project, in the final analysis, Fedora is a property of Red > Hat. This means that any deal made between Fedora and a third party > *must* be agreed upon by Red Hat legal. > > 2. THE BOILERPLATE CONTACT FOR GOOGLE'S CUSTOM SEARCH ENGINE (CSE) IS TOO > RISKY FOR RED HAT LEGAL TO ACCEPT. > > The terms and conditions for the Google CSE program > (http://www.google.com/coop/docs/cse/tos.html) are pretty onerous. The > biggest sticking point for Red Hat lawyers is Section 5, in which Google > demands unlimited indemnification. Negotiations to resolve this clause > have been unsuccessful. > > 3. MECHANISMS LIKE THE FIREFOX SEARCH BAR ARE SPECIFICALLY EXCLUDED FROM > THE GOOGLE CSE. > > It seems like there are two potential sources of revenue for Fedora in > Firefox: the start page (which would probably be low dollar) and the > search bar (which would probably be high dollar). In actuality, though, > the search bar is *specifically* excluded from the Google CSE agreement, > in section 1.4, Appropriate Conduct. Quote: "You shall not, and shall not > allow any third party to: ... (f) directly or indirectly access, launmch > and/or activate the Service through or from, or otherwise incorporate the > Service in, any Web site or other means other than the Site, and then only > to the extent expressly permitted herein." Which means that unless we > negotiate a deal with Google directly, we can't use the search bar to > generate revenue at all. > > So that's it. There are no simple avenues to pursue at this point, which > means that we are now open to pursue other options (wikia, fedorasearch > being the two I like best). We should also consider whether we want to > change the default search to use these, which might require a break from > the Firefox brand. I like the fact that wikia is all about transparent, open services. That makes them more like us than Google is. They're also based around a community contribution model -- people donate spare bandwidth and cycles to webcrawl for indexing purposes. I don't think wikia is competitive yet as a search tool from the user's point of view, but we certainly are in a position to help make them more so. What if, as part of this new "community grid" project (which I like calling "Trellis"), we offered people the ability to pitch in with the web-crawling duties? This is not limited to just Fedora users, but here's one possibility: Installing user sees firstboot module providing Trellis. User opts in, then from a menu of system resource donations, selects either (1) "wikia," or (2) "Fedora, I trust you, use this time for whatever you like," which maps to a certain proporation of donation for wikia (published somewhere, with a link). This isn't purely about CPU cycles anymore, but it's still worth considering. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From bche at redhat.com Thu Mar 13 20:42:44 2008 From: bche at redhat.com (Bryan Che) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 16:42:44 -0400 Subject: Fedora and Google search: the final report In-Reply-To: <1205437324.3973.69.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1205437324.3973.69.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <47D991C4.9060406@redhat.com> I think suggestions like this would be great. Once I get a SIG Wiki created, we'll need to figure out how to allow projects to join and get cycles. "Trellis" is a cool name, but I'm also wondering if it would be useful to have a more transparent name. For example, it would be easier to tell people about the project and get them to donate cycles to it if the name gave more indication upfront about what the project was (that's why I used "Fedora at home" in my initial e-mail--so people would instantly understand what I was proposing). The alternative is that we'd have to put a lot of marketing effort behind making people aware of a name like "Trellis." Bryan Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Tue, 2008-03-11 at 13:18 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: >> This represents my final report on this matter. My conclusion: it's not >> practical to pursue a relationship between Fedora and Google at this time, >> for the following reasons: >> >> 1. RED HAT BEARS THE LEGAL RISKS FOR FEDORA. >> >> As much as Red Hat has worked to create an independent governance model >> for the Fedora Project, in the final analysis, Fedora is a property of Red >> Hat. This means that any deal made between Fedora and a third party >> *must* be agreed upon by Red Hat legal. >> >> 2. THE BOILERPLATE CONTACT FOR GOOGLE'S CUSTOM SEARCH ENGINE (CSE) IS TOO >> RISKY FOR RED HAT LEGAL TO ACCEPT. >> >> The terms and conditions for the Google CSE program >> (http://www.google.com/coop/docs/cse/tos.html) are pretty onerous. The >> biggest sticking point for Red Hat lawyers is Section 5, in which Google >> demands unlimited indemnification. Negotiations to resolve this clause >> have been unsuccessful. >> >> 3. MECHANISMS LIKE THE FIREFOX SEARCH BAR ARE SPECIFICALLY EXCLUDED FROM >> THE GOOGLE CSE. >> >> It seems like there are two potential sources of revenue for Fedora in >> Firefox: the start page (which would probably be low dollar) and the >> search bar (which would probably be high dollar). In actuality, though, >> the search bar is *specifically* excluded from the Google CSE agreement, >> in section 1.4, Appropriate Conduct. Quote: "You shall not, and shall not >> allow any third party to: ... (f) directly or indirectly access, launmch >> and/or activate the Service through or from, or otherwise incorporate the >> Service in, any Web site or other means other than the Site, and then only >> to the extent expressly permitted herein." Which means that unless we >> negotiate a deal with Google directly, we can't use the search bar to >> generate revenue at all. >> >> So that's it. There are no simple avenues to pursue at this point, which >> means that we are now open to pursue other options (wikia, fedorasearch >> being the two I like best). We should also consider whether we want to >> change the default search to use these, which might require a break from >> the Firefox brand. > > I like the fact that wikia is all about transparent, open services. > That makes them more like us than Google is. They're also based around > a community contribution model -- people donate spare bandwidth and > cycles to webcrawl for indexing purposes. I don't think wikia is > competitive yet as a search tool from the user's point of view, but we > certainly are in a position to help make them more so. > > What if, as part of this new "community grid" project (which I like > calling "Trellis"), we offered people the ability to pitch in with the > web-crawling duties? This is not limited to just Fedora users, but > here's one possibility: Installing user sees firstboot module providing > Trellis. User opts in, then from a menu of system resource donations, > selects either (1) "wikia," or (2) "Fedora, I trust you, use this time > for whatever you like," which maps to a certain proporation of donation > for wikia (published somewhere, with a link). > > This isn't purely about CPU cycles anymore, but it's still worth > considering. > From poelstra at redhat.com Thu Mar 13 20:45:13 2008 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 13:45:13 -0700 Subject: Making release a snap In-Reply-To: <3263b11b0803131240k4858077cn877e98f5060eee7f@mail.gmail.com> References: <1203368690.30893.208.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47C3006A.8010408@redhat.com> <1205430102.3973.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> <3263b11b0803131240k4858077cn877e98f5060eee7f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47D99259.9040409@redhat.com> Jonathan Roberts said the following on 03/13/2008 12:40 PM Pacific Time: >> I am suggesting the following date/time: >> * 1900 UTC / 3:00pm EDT / 12:00pm Monday, March 17 > > Should be fine for me, > > Best, > > Jon Can everyone do telephone? We have toll-free # for inside USA and could probably conference people in overseas (so there is no cost for the call to them) if they provide a phone number in advance. John From jonathan.roberts.uk at googlemail.com Thu Mar 13 19:40:00 2008 From: jonathan.roberts.uk at googlemail.com (Jonathan Roberts) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 19:40:00 +0000 Subject: Making release a snap In-Reply-To: <1205430102.3973.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1203368690.30893.208.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47C3006A.8010408@redhat.com> <1205430102.3973.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <3263b11b0803131240k4858077cn877e98f5060eee7f@mail.gmail.com> > I am suggesting the following date/time: > * 1900 UTC / 3:00pm EDT / 12:00pm Monday, March 17 Should be fine for me, Best, Jon From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Mar 13 20:47:56 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 12:47:56 -0800 Subject: Fedora and Google search: the final report In-Reply-To: <47D991C4.9060406@redhat.com> References: <1205437324.3973.69.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47D991C4.9060406@redhat.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910803131347v67b1a5bbl43941f421e870fe5@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 12:42 PM, Bryan Che wrote: > I used "Fedora at home" in my initial e-mail--so people would instantly > understand what I was proposing). The alternative is that we'd have to > put a lot of marketing effort behind making people aware of a name like > "Trellis." The reason why @home is instantly recognizable is the exact same reason it's probably a trademark infringement to use it! Yes... you absolutely have to make a marketing effort to establish a new brand... that's why trademarks get protected status. You can't trade on an brand of an established mark. Nor do you want other's to make use of the value of the brand of the marks you establish without your permission. -jef From bche at redhat.com Thu Mar 13 20:55:10 2008 From: bche at redhat.com (Bryan Che) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 16:55:10 -0400 Subject: Fedora and Google search: the final report In-Reply-To: <604aa7910803131347v67b1a5bbl43941f421e870fe5@mail.gmail.com> References: <1205437324.3973.69.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47D991C4.9060406@redhat.com> <604aa7910803131347v67b1a5bbl43941f421e870fe5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47D994AE.2050306@redhat.com> I'm not saying that we should use "@home" as I understand the IP implications. But, there is a spectrum of names from cool/clever like "Trellis," (which is how we often name open source projects) to something meaningful but boring like "Fedora Open Community Grid Project." We would need to market both--and anything in between--but less cool and clever is easier to market, at the expense of being, well, less cool and clever. Bryan Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 12:42 PM, Bryan Che wrote: >> I used "Fedora at home" in my initial e-mail--so people would instantly >> understand what I was proposing). The alternative is that we'd have to >> put a lot of marketing effort behind making people aware of a name like >> "Trellis." > > > The reason why @home is instantly recognizable is the exact same > reason it's probably a trademark infringement to use it! > > Yes... you absolutely have to make a marketing effort to establish a > new brand... that's why trademarks get protected status. You can't > trade on an brand of an established mark. Nor do you want other's to > make use of the value of the brand of the marks you establish without > your permission. > > -jef > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Mar 13 21:07:28 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 13:07:28 -0800 Subject: Fedora and Google search: the final report In-Reply-To: <47D994AE.2050306@redhat.com> References: <1205437324.3973.69.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47D991C4.9060406@redhat.com> <604aa7910803131347v67b1a5bbl43941f421e870fe5@mail.gmail.com> <47D994AE.2050306@redhat.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910803131407x298b37dax4013e3f6a76b0378@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 12:55 PM, Bryan Che wrote: > I'm not saying that we should use "@home" as I understand the IP > implications. But, there is a spectrum of names from cool/clever like > "Trellis," (which is how we often name open source projects) to > something meaningful but boring like "Fedora Open Community Grid > Project." We would need to market both--and anything in between--but > less cool and clever is easier to market, at the expense of being, well, > less cool and clever. Tsk Tsk, this isn't constructive brain storming... telling me its too cool and clever a name is flattering, but you have to pony up a counter suggestion or your just naysaying. Throw out something in between the boring and clever and fill in the spectrum a little bit with another possibility. The Fedora Trellis: The Open Community Grid..... Supporting a garden of innovation and ideas through community collaboration. -jef"How is that not marketable?"spaleta From bche at redhat.com Thu Mar 13 21:27:19 2008 From: bche at redhat.com (Bryan Che) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 17:27:19 -0400 Subject: Fedora and Google search: the final report In-Reply-To: <604aa7910803131407x298b37dax4013e3f6a76b0378@mail.gmail.com> References: <1205437324.3973.69.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47D991C4.9060406@redhat.com> <604aa7910803131347v67b1a5bbl43941f421e870fe5@mail.gmail.com> <47D994AE.2050306@redhat.com> <604aa7910803131407x298b37dax4013e3f6a76b0378@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47D99C37.5030401@redhat.com> I've already been working on the brainstorming and name collecting part and have also asked for input offline from people far better than me at this as well. I'll post those suggestions back to the list to spark discussion once I have them. I'm also not naysaying "Trellis"--just pointing out that there are pros and cons for a type of name so that we can make sure we consider them as we pick a name. Bryan Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 12:55 PM, Bryan Che wrote: >> I'm not saying that we should use "@home" as I understand the IP >> implications. But, there is a spectrum of names from cool/clever like >> "Trellis," (which is how we often name open source projects) to >> something meaningful but boring like "Fedora Open Community Grid >> Project." We would need to market both--and anything in between--but >> less cool and clever is easier to market, at the expense of being, well, >> less cool and clever. > > Tsk Tsk, this isn't constructive brain storming... telling me its too > cool and clever a name is flattering, but you have to pony up a > counter suggestion or your just naysaying. Throw out something in > between the boring and clever and fill in the spectrum a little bit > with another possibility. > > > The Fedora Trellis: The Open Community Grid..... > Supporting a garden of innovation and ideas through community collaboration. > > -jef"How is that not marketable?"spaleta > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board From smooge at gmail.com Thu Mar 13 21:28:58 2008 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 15:28:58 -0600 Subject: Fedora and Google search: the final report In-Reply-To: <604aa7910803131407x298b37dax4013e3f6a76b0378@mail.gmail.com> References: <1205437324.3973.69.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47D991C4.9060406@redhat.com> <604aa7910803131347v67b1a5bbl43941f421e870fe5@mail.gmail.com> <47D994AE.2050306@redhat.com> <604aa7910803131407x298b37dax4013e3f6a76b0378@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <80d7e4090803131428t2cd07bdenbcaa4b61b02123df@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 3:07 PM, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 12:55 PM, Bryan Che wrote: > > I'm not saying that we should use "@home" as I understand the IP > > implications. But, there is a spectrum of names from cool/clever like > > "Trellis," (which is how we often name open source projects) to > > something meaningful but boring like "Fedora Open Community Grid > > Project." We would need to market both--and anything in between--but > > less cool and clever is easier to market, at the expense of being, well, > > less cool and clever. > > Tsk Tsk, this isn't constructive brain storming... telling me its too > cool and clever a name is flattering, but you have to pony up a > counter suggestion or your just naysaying. Throw out something in > between the boring and clever and fill in the spectrum a little bit > with another possibility. > > > The Fedora Trellis: The Open Community Grid..... > Supporting a garden of innovation and ideas through community collaboration. > > -jef"How is that not marketable?"spaleta > u!fedora -- u factor fedora fedora^u -- fedora to the power of you Calc U & US Taken ones: uPowered ufinity youfinity upower -- ubuntu version -- Stephen J Smoogen. -- CSIRT/Linux System Administrator How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice" From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Mar 13 21:31:21 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 13:31:21 -0800 Subject: Fedora and Google search: the final report In-Reply-To: <47D99C37.5030401@redhat.com> References: <1205437324.3973.69.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47D991C4.9060406@redhat.com> <604aa7910803131347v67b1a5bbl43941f421e870fe5@mail.gmail.com> <47D994AE.2050306@redhat.com> <604aa7910803131407x298b37dax4013e3f6a76b0378@mail.gmail.com> <47D99C37.5030401@redhat.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910803131431y6dd7cf50me7d7951678fb35d8@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 1:27 PM, Bryan Che wrote: > I've already been working on the brainstorming and name collecting part > and have also asked for input offline from people far better than me at > this as well. I'll post those suggestions back to the list to spark > discussion once I have them. Did Karsten jump the gun by posting a thread to the marketing list asking for name suggestions? -jef From bche at redhat.com Thu Mar 13 21:34:48 2008 From: bche at redhat.com (Bryan Che) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 17:34:48 -0400 Subject: Fedora and Google search: the final report In-Reply-To: <604aa7910803131431y6dd7cf50me7d7951678fb35d8@mail.gmail.com> References: <1205437324.3973.69.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47D991C4.9060406@redhat.com> <604aa7910803131347v67b1a5bbl43941f421e870fe5@mail.gmail.com> <47D994AE.2050306@redhat.com> <604aa7910803131407x298b37dax4013e3f6a76b0378@mail.gmail.com> <47D99C37.5030401@redhat.com> <604aa7910803131431y6dd7cf50me7d7951678fb35d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47D99DF8.5050507@redhat.com> Probably not, but I'm not on that mailing list, so I guess that's why I didn't respond there. =p Bryan Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 1:27 PM, Bryan Che wrote: >> I've already been working on the brainstorming and name collecting part >> and have also asked for input offline from people far better than me at >> this as well. I'll post those suggestions back to the list to spark >> discussion once I have them. > > Did Karsten jump the gun by posting a thread to the marketing list > asking for name suggestions? > > -jef > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board From jkeating at redhat.com Thu Mar 13 21:49:25 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 17:49:25 -0400 Subject: Making release a snap In-Reply-To: <47D99259.9040409@redhat.com> References: <1203368690.30893.208.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47C3006A.8010408@redhat.com> <1205430102.3973.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> <3263b11b0803131240k4858077cn877e98f5060eee7f@mail.gmail.com> <47D99259.9040409@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1205444965.3269.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2008-03-13 at 13:45 -0700, John Poelstra wrote: > Can everyone do telephone? > > We have toll-free # for inside USA and could probably conference people > in overseas (so there is no cost for the call to them) if they provide a > phone number in advance. Worksforme. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- All my bits are free, are yours? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From katzj at redhat.com Thu Mar 13 21:51:18 2008 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 17:51:18 -0400 Subject: Making release a snap In-Reply-To: <1205430102.3973.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1203368690.30893.208.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47C3006A.8010408@redhat.com> <1205430102.3973.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1205445078.25397.37.camel@aglarond.local> On Thu, 2008-03-13 at 17:41 +0000, Paul W. Frields wrote: > Let's put together a conference call for release day planning. The > motivation is discussed here: [snip] > I am suggesting the following date/time: > * 1900 UTC / 3:00pm EDT / 12:00pm Monday, March 17 I'm in class then... I updated the matrix with the when of my availability next week Jeremy From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Mar 13 21:52:24 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 13:52:24 -0800 Subject: Fedora and Google search: the final report In-Reply-To: <1205437324.3973.69.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1205437324.3973.69.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <604aa7910803131452n784e68c9ocd97e58b71c085ce@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 11:42 AM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > What if, as part of this new "community grid" project (which I like > calling "Trellis"), we offered people the ability to pitch in with the > web-crawling duties? This is not limited to just Fedora users, but > here's one possibility: Installing user sees firstboot module providing > Trellis. User opts in, then from a menu of system resource donations, > selects either (1) "wikia," or (2) "Fedora, I trust you, use this time > for whatever you like," which maps to a certain proporation of donation > for wikia (published somewhere, with a link). > > This isn't purely about CPU cycles anymore, but it's still worth > considering. Actually cycles to support wikia indexing makes a lot more sense to me than packaging building. If only we had a more solid relationship with NSF so that we could get specific science research ideas on board quickly. Actually... Paul when are you going to DC for that conference? If I found someone from NSF for you to talk to about Fedora as a technology base for computational science would you be interested? If we make an investment into this sort of grid, it might not hurt to beat NSF and NIH over the head about it...repeatedly. -jef From kwade at redhat.com Fri Mar 14 00:04:15 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 17:04:15 -0700 Subject: Making release a snap In-Reply-To: <1205445078.25397.37.camel@aglarond.local> References: <1203368690.30893.208.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47C3006A.8010408@redhat.com> <1205430102.3973.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1205445078.25397.37.camel@aglarond.local> Message-ID: <1205453055.13919.23.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Thu, 2008-03-13 at 17:51 -0400, Jeremy Katz wrote: > On Thu, 2008-03-13 at 17:41 +0000, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > Let's put together a conference call for release day planning. The > > motivation is discussed here: > [snip] > > I am suggesting the following date/time: > > * 1900 UTC / 3:00pm EDT / 12:00pm Monday, March 17 > > I'm in class then... I updated the matrix with the when of my > availability next week So, are we in full look for availability mode? Everyone fills out the matrix, etc.? -- Karsten Wade, Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Fri Mar 14 00:06:47 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 17:06:47 -0700 Subject: IRC meeting feedback In-Reply-To: <47D7DD58.203@RedHat.com> References: <47D7DD58.203@RedHat.com> Message-ID: <1205453207.13919.27.camel@calliope.phig.org> WHY WAS EVERYONE SHOUTING SO MUCH ON THAT MEETING CHANNEL THING?!? I TURNED THE VOLUME VERY FAR DOWN BUT THE VOICES >>> THE VOICES WOULDN"T STOP SHOUTING> MY VOTE IS NO MORE SHOUTING< K? On Wed, 2008-03-12 at 09:40 -0400, Steve Dickson wrote: > At yesterday's board meeting, we talked about how > well we thought last week's IRC meeting went. Overall, > the generally consensus was things went well... a few > tweaks here and there, but it was felt the meeting > was productive. > > Now the question is, what did you think? > > Was it a productive use of your time? > Anything we can improve on? > > The current thinking is to having these meetings > once a month (the first Tuesday of the month), which > means the next meeting would be April 1 (which should be fun! ;-) ) > Is this too often maybe not often enough, or just about right? > > Finally the agenda of these meetings. The consensus was > we would kept the agenda light to give more Q&A time. > Does this make sense? Should the meeting be just all Q&A? > > Any comments/suggestions would be appreciated... > > tia, > > steved. > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board -- Karsten Wade, Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mmcgrath at redhat.com Fri Mar 14 03:16:48 2008 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 22:16:48 -0500 (CDT) Subject: spins and hosting Message-ID: So we're at the point where we can host spins, how far off are we from having the official policy up and ready? The reason I ask is we've been asked to link to an external site. There's no technical reason we can't do this but at our infrastructure meeting today we decided to make sure to run this ticket by those who have been more involved in the decisions, policies, etc. https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/446 -Mike From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Fri Mar 14 03:38:10 2008 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (seth vidal) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 23:38:10 -0400 Subject: Making release a snap In-Reply-To: <47D99259.9040409@redhat.com> References: <1203368690.30893.208.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47C3006A.8010408@redhat.com> <1205430102.3973.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> <3263b11b0803131240k4858077cn877e98f5060eee7f@mail.gmail.com> <47D99259.9040409@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1205465890.1816.4.camel@cutter> On Thu, 2008-03-13 at 13:45 -0700, John Poelstra wrote: > Jonathan Roberts said the following on 03/13/2008 12:40 PM Pacific Time: > >> I am suggesting the following date/time: > >> * 1900 UTC / 3:00pm EDT / 12:00pm Monday, March 17 > > > > Should be fine for me, > > > > Best, > > > > Jon > > Can everyone do telephone? > > We have toll-free # for inside USA and could probably conference people > in overseas (so there is no cost for the call to them) if they provide a > phone number in advance. For people outside of the USA it's easy to dial into rh's conf system using fwd.pulver.com and ekiga. just connect to ekiga dial: *your1800numbeher at fwd.pulver.com and it will connect you. It really kinda rocks. oh and I'm fine with the time on monday -sv From poelstra at redhat.com Fri Mar 14 04:17:11 2008 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 21:17:11 -0700 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2008-MAR-11 Message-ID: <47D9FC47.2070605@redhat.com> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/Meetings/2008-03-11 == Roll Call == Attendees: Bill Nottingham, Steve Dickson, Paul Frields, Seth Vidal, Jef Spaleta, John Poelstra, Chris Aillon, Karsten Wade Regrets: Dennis Gilmore, Matt Domsch, Bob McWirther == Followup to Previous Business == === Post-release updates of custom spins (2008-01-29) === * Should the board have to approve them? * We will hosts as many spins as we have space for * Need to determine the hosting requirements and limits * How long will spins stay around? * http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/RahulSundaram/SpinsProcess * ACTION: Jef to review Rahul's proposal and report back to board * OWNER: Jef Spaleta * '''FOLLOWUP on 2008-02-12''' * Jef is waiting for feedback from Jeremy Katz on release engineering's perspective * Reference: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ReleaseEngineering/Meetings/2008-feb-11 * People are still not clear on exactly what is required to create an official "Fedora Spin" * Need a clear list of guidelines of what a spin owner is responsible for and what they are required to test * Hoping a test will come from Jeremy Katz as part of feedback from release engineering * We are only talking about spins that use GA packages, thus testing for GA should have given us enough comfort that risk is minimized * We only need to be concerned with new combination of packages that a spin would present * ACTIONS & OWNERS: * Paul Frields--followup with Fedora Release Engineering and QA contingent to discuss testing requirements * Jef Spaleta to formulate specific guidelines for review prior to or at next board meeting (dependent on feedback from release engineering) * '''FOLLOWUP on 2008-02-19''' * Crux of issue right now is figuring out exactly what input release engineering is supposed to be giving * Jef will have a writeup to the board by next meeting * Paul will be at the Red Hat office in Westford, MA next week and can sit down and work out any of the remaining details with Jeremy, Jesse, Will, etc. * '''FOLLOWUP on 2008-02-26''' * releng has created http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JeremyKatz/SpinChecklist * Jef has input from Rahul and plans to start writing a draft * '''FOLLOWUP on 2008-03-04''' * Jef posting proposal to fedora-advisory-board-list: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2008-March/msg00004.html * '''FOLLOWUP on 2008-03-11''' * Jef posting updated proposal to fedora-advisory-board-list today and ongoing discussion will continue on fedora-advisory-board-list: * https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2008-March/msg00074.html * GOALS: 1. Solidify rest of the policy this week 1. Board to vote on proposal at next meeting === Google Start Page (2008-02-19) === * Project has changed ownership within Red Hat to Greg Dekoenigsberg * No final decision has been made since idea was first proposed * Go forward possibilities: 1. Generic click-through agreement--http://www.google.com/coop/cse/ * very limited overhead * fedora branded start search page * use existing Fedora start page--just sign it up with Google * no exclusivity commitment * no commitment to continue relationship 1. Customized arrangement * http://www.google.com/a/help/intl/en/partners/index.html * http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2007/05/google-apps-partner-edition.html * long term commitment * exclusivity commitment 1. Do nothing * Revenue could be used to finance Fedora's operations * DECISION: explore option #1 and see what kind of numbers Fedora is generating * OWNERS: Max and Greg * ACTIONS: 1. Greg to find out what needs to be done on the google side to move things along 1. Max to explore financial aspects of receiving funds and allocating them to Fedora * '''RESOLVED on 2008-03-11''' * Update from Greg DeKoenigsberg that a mutually beneficial relationship cannot be established * https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2008-March/msg00071.html === Codeina (2008-02-26) === * Still not comfortable that we are pointing people to content that is not "Free and Open Source software" * Cannot suitably fix codeina in the Fedora 9 time frame * ACTIONS: 1. Review email thread: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2007-November/msg00050.html 1. Move discussion to fedora-advisory-board list to formulate a solution there 1. Propose patching out other for sale non-free plugins 1. Bill Nottingham to make sure that live spin includes codeina correctly * '''FOLLOWUP on 2008-03-11''' * Majority board vote in favor of patching out all other ''for sale'' non-free plugins leaving the freely available mp3 codec 1. Three members absent 1. One abstention * Paul to check with codeina maintainer (Bastien Nocera) and Fluendo (Thomas Vander Stichele) * Paul to send followup to fedora-advisory-board-list == New Business == === Public IRC Meeting === * Thoughts how meeting went * Next time limit board discussion in the public channel and maintain focus in main channel * Next public meeting will be on IRC on Tuesday 2008-04-01 * ACTIONS: * Paul to check with Infrastructure for status of audio ability * Steve to send mail to f-a-b seeking feedback from community * https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2008-March/msg00088.html == Future Business (discuss at a future meeting) == === Next Meeting === * Date: 2008-03-18 * Time: 14:00 EDT From bche at redhat.com Fri Mar 14 13:00:06 2008 From: bche at redhat.com (Bryan Che) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 09:00:06 -0400 Subject: Fedora and Google search: the final report In-Reply-To: <604aa7910803131452n784e68c9ocd97e58b71c085ce@mail.gmail.com> References: <1205437324.3973.69.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910803131452n784e68c9ocd97e58b71c085ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47DA76D6.6050405@redhat.com> Our upstream dev community, the Condor project, also gets lots of its funding from NSF and the government. Bryan Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 11:42 AM, Paul W. Frields wrote: >> What if, as part of this new "community grid" project (which I like >> calling "Trellis"), we offered people the ability to pitch in with the >> web-crawling duties? This is not limited to just Fedora users, but >> here's one possibility: Installing user sees firstboot module providing >> Trellis. User opts in, then from a menu of system resource donations, >> selects either (1) "wikia," or (2) "Fedora, I trust you, use this time >> for whatever you like," which maps to a certain proporation of donation >> for wikia (published somewhere, with a link). >> >> This isn't purely about CPU cycles anymore, but it's still worth >> considering. > > > Actually cycles to support wikia indexing makes a lot more sense to me > than packaging building. > If only we had a more solid relationship with NSF so that we could get > specific science research ideas on board quickly. Actually... > > Paul when are you going to DC for that conference? If I found someone > from NSF for you to talk to about Fedora as a technology base for > computational science would you be interested? If we make an > investment into this sort of grid, it might not hurt to beat NSF and > NIH over the head about it...repeatedly. > > -jef > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board From jonstanley at gmail.com Fri Mar 14 15:11:50 2008 From: jonstanley at gmail.com (Jon Stanley) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 11:11:50 -0400 Subject: Making release a snap In-Reply-To: <1205430102.3973.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1203368690.30893.208.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47C3006A.8010408@redhat.com> <1205430102.3973.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 1:41 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > I am suggesting the following date/time: > * 1900 UTC / 3:00pm EDT / 12:00pm Monday, March 17 > > I've made a matrix where you can fill out your availability if that > doesn't work for you: > * http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PaulWFrields/ReleaseDay I would like to make sure that the bug triage stuff (bugzilla maintenance if you will) that we are proposing gets included. It won't be approved by that time, it's on FESCo's agenda for Thursday, however I don't see any roadblocks to it being approved at that time. Since John Poelstra is in this meeting, I don't necessarily need to be there, although if I'm wanted (geez that sounds bad) I would be available at that time as of now (or pretty much anytime Monday EDT). From jrb at redhat.com Fri Mar 14 18:07:32 2008 From: jrb at redhat.com (Jonathan Blandford) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 14:07:32 -0400 Subject: Fedora and Google search: the final report In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1205518052.3039.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2008-03-11 at 13:18 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > So that's it. There are no simple avenues to pursue at this point, which > means that we are now open to pursue other options (wikia, fedorasearch > being the two I like best). We should also consider whether we want to > change the default search to use these, which might require a break from > the Firefox brand. Just saw this this morning. It looks a little interesting. http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/03/13/yahoo-embraces-the-semantic-web-expect-the-web-to-organize-itself-in-a-hurry/ Thanks, -Jonathan From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Fri Mar 14 18:55:32 2008 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 14:55:32 -0400 Subject: Fedora and Google search: the final report In-Reply-To: <1205518052.3039.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1205518052.3039.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1205520932.1816.43.camel@cutter> On Fri, 2008-03-14 at 14:07 -0400, Jonathan Blandford wrote: > On Tue, 2008-03-11 at 13:18 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > > So that's it. There are no simple avenues to pursue at this point, which > > means that we are now open to pursue other options (wikia, fedorasearch > > being the two I like best). We should also consider whether we want to > > change the default search to use these, which might require a break from > > the Firefox brand. > > Just saw this this morning. It looks a little interesting. > > http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/03/13/yahoo-embraces-the-semantic-web-expect-the-web-to-organize-itself-in-a-hurry/ > It does - but I like the idea of wikia with a feature like this more. An open source search engine with the ability to submit indexed data, etc. There's A LOT to be said, there. -sv From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Mar 14 21:26:11 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2008 02:56:11 +0530 Subject: Draft Proposal: Spin Submission and Approval Process In-Reply-To: <604aa7910803111232x3d0abf6au9a4a355ed7e02ffb@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910803041257x6546a8b8yd7bfa8f4a3b1febc@mail.gmail.com> <47D03BCD.5090705@fedoraproject.org> <604aa7910803061211s4c259e69kea1484233fa7a844@mail.gmail.com> <47D05270.4030909@fedoraproject.org> <604aa7910803111232x3d0abf6au9a4a355ed7e02ffb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47DAED73.608@fedoraproject.org> Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 12:22 PM, Rahul Sundaram > wrote: >> Note that it is *not* a theoretical problem. I have long ago proposed a >> updates games spin and I really do want it solved asap. > > Okay so was this proposed to releng or to fab and I missed it? I proposed to board and CC'ed rel eng. If you have missed it, the proposal was simple: I would like to provide an updated games live dvd of Fedora that includes updated versions of existing games and a few new ones. I would like to see the approval process cover async updates of any Fedora spin too. > If you had the approval to use the Trademarks would that be enough to > let you make use of localized spins for your needs? Or are you stuck > on a technical issue that releng wanted you to solve? Or are you > waiting to hear about hosting space? Approval to use the trademarks would be enough for me to distribute it piece meal when opportunities show up. I was talking to magazines which were interested in several thousand copies of localized spins but that chance has gone out due to delays in this process. I don't have the ability to host the spins elsewhere so if we want to reach a broader audience, I need hosting space too. Rahul From stickster at gmail.com Fri Mar 14 23:17:49 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 19:17:49 -0400 Subject: Making release a snap In-Reply-To: <1205453055.13919.23.camel@calliope.phig.org> References: <1203368690.30893.208.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47C3006A.8010408@redhat.com> <1205430102.3973.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1205445078.25397.37.camel@aglarond.local> <1205453055.13919.23.camel@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <1205536669.18167.174.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2008-03-13 at 17:04 -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > On Thu, 2008-03-13 at 17:51 -0400, Jeremy Katz wrote: > > On Thu, 2008-03-13 at 17:41 +0000, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > > Let's put together a conference call for release day planning. The > > > motivation is discussed here: > > [snip] > > > I am suggesting the following date/time: > > > * 1900 UTC / 3:00pm EDT / 12:00pm Monday, March 17 > > > > I'm in class then... I updated the matrix with the when of my > > availability next week > > So, are we in full look for availability mode? Everyone fills out the > matrix, etc.? I'd really like Jeremy to be there but I'm a bit hesitant to hang the whole meeting on one person's peg. Go ahead and fill out the matrix and I'll let people know this weekend if we can find a better time that everyone can do. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Fri Mar 14 23:08:18 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 23:08:18 +0000 Subject: Fedora and Google search: the final report In-Reply-To: <604aa7910803131452n784e68c9ocd97e58b71c085ce@mail.gmail.com> References: <1205437324.3973.69.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910803131452n784e68c9ocd97e58b71c085ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1205536098.18167.166.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2008-03-13 at 13:52 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 11:42 AM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > What if, as part of this new "community grid" project (which I like > > calling "Trellis"), we offered people the ability to pitch in with the > > web-crawling duties? This is not limited to just Fedora users, but > > here's one possibility: Installing user sees firstboot module providing > > Trellis. User opts in, then from a menu of system resource donations, > > selects either (1) "wikia," or (2) "Fedora, I trust you, use this time > > for whatever you like," which maps to a certain proporation of donation > > for wikia (published somewhere, with a link). > > > > This isn't purely about CPU cycles anymore, but it's still worth > > considering. > > > Actually cycles to support wikia indexing makes a lot more sense to me > than packaging building. > If only we had a more solid relationship with NSF so that we could get > specific science research ideas on board quickly. Actually... > > Paul when are you going to DC for that conference? If I found someone > from NSF for you to talk to about Fedora as a technology base for > computational science would you be interested? If we make an > investment into this sort of grid, it might not hurt to beat NSF and > NIH over the head about it...repeatedly. The first week of April, if memory serves, is FOSE, a big federal government expo for IT. It may not be the best place for us to find individual contributors or a lot of .org's, but Fedora is really big throughout the DC area .gov's (even if you can't tell from Netcraft). I'd be happy to talk to someone there. Shoot me some mail off list and let's discuss so I can get some additional context. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Sun Mar 16 19:39:37 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 15:39:37 -0400 Subject: Making release a snap In-Reply-To: References: <1203368690.30893.208.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47C3006A.8010408@redhat.com> <1205430102.3973.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1205696377.29562.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Apparently there a few people for whom the original Monday meeting time is bad. Is there anyone who can't do Wednesday @ 1700 UTC/1:00pm EDT/10:00am PDT? It's probably best if everyone visit http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PaulWFrields/ReleaseDay and fill out the matrix there at your earliest convenience, even if it's just to put your initials in the Wednesday 1700 UTC block to tell me that's OK for you. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Sun Mar 16 20:51:36 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 13:51:36 -0700 Subject: Making release a snap In-Reply-To: <1205696377.29562.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1203368690.30893.208.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47C3006A.8010408@redhat.com> <1205430102.3973.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1205696377.29562.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1205700696.13919.222.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Sun, 2008-03-16 at 15:39 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > Apparently there a few people for whom the original Monday meeting time > is bad. Is there anyone who can't do Wednesday @ 1700 UTC/1:00pm > EDT/10:00am PDT? > > It's probably best if everyone visit > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PaulWFrields/ReleaseDay and fill out the > matrix there at your earliest convenience, even if it's just to put your > initials in the Wednesday 1700 UTC block to tell me that's OK for you. OK, that was easy enough. Sorry to say, I hate filling out those wiki table time matrices. It takes me up to 30 minutes each time because of calculating carefully across the dateline. That was mainly why I hadn't done it so far. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Mon Mar 17 18:28:49 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 18:28:49 +0000 Subject: Making release a snap In-Reply-To: <1205700696.13919.222.camel@calliope.phig.org> References: <1203368690.30893.208.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47C3006A.8010408@redhat.com> <1205430102.3973.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1205696377.29562.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1205700696.13919.222.camel@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <1205778529.351.109.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2008-03-16 at 13:51 -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > On Sun, 2008-03-16 at 15:39 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > Apparently there a few people for whom the original Monday meeting time > > is bad. Is there anyone who can't do Wednesday @ 1700 UTC/1:00pm > > EDT/10:00am PDT? > > > > It's probably best if everyone visit > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PaulWFrields/ReleaseDay and fill out the > > matrix there at your earliest convenience, even if it's just to put your > > initials in the Wednesday 1700 UTC block to tell me that's OK for you. > > OK, that was easy enough. Sorry to say, I hate filling out those wiki > table time matrices. It takes me up to 30 minutes each time because of > calculating carefully across the dateline. That was mainly why I hadn't > done it so far. OK, looks like we have critical mass for Wednesday at 1700 UTC / 1:00pm EDT / 10:00am PDT. John Poelstra will send around an email to the invited attendees with phone numbers and an entry code. Mairin Duffy -- Dept. of Makin' Things All Purdy-like Karsten Wade -- Dept. of Writing Everything Down Jeremy Katz, Tom 'spot' Callaway -- Dept. of Tinkering Ricky Zhou -- Dept. of At Your Service Dimitris Glezos -- Dept. of "My Hovercraft is Full of Eels" (*may not be able to attend) Jonathan Roberts -- Dept. of Spin Control Will Woods -- Dept. of OMGWTFBBQ! Jesse Keating - Dept. of Controlling Spins (not to be confused with DSC, *splitters*!) Paul Frields - Dept. of Hand-wavy Things John Poelstra - Dept. of Jenga Mastery -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Mon Mar 17 18:50:44 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 14:50:44 -0400 Subject: Making release a snap In-Reply-To: <1205778529.351.109.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1203368690.30893.208.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47C3006A.8010408@redhat.com> <1205430102.3973.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1205696377.29562.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1205700696.13919.222.camel@calliope.phig.org> <1205778529.351.109.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1205779844.351.115.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2008-03-17 at 18:28 +0000, Paul W. Frields wrote: > OK, looks like we have critical mass for Wednesday at 1700 UTC / 1:00pm > EDT / 10:00am PDT. John Poelstra will send around an email to the > invited attendees with phone numbers and an entry code. Sorry to reply to myself, but I started a page in Gobby to hold some mind-mapping (or wall-splattering) bits. The file is "release-day-planning.txt" and if you're not familiar with Gobby, visit this page to learn how to use it with our Fedora instance: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/GobbyHowTo -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Mon Mar 17 21:49:05 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 17:49:05 -0400 Subject: Codeina and how to proceed Message-ID: <1205790545.25162.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Some people clearly feel like codeina is doing the Fedora world a much-needed service, and others clearly feel that it isn't. The Board decided last week that it's in the latter camp[1], but the decision to keep the open-source MP3 codec offering and strip out the other closed-source codec offerings rankled several people[2,3,4]. [1] http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2008-March/msg00111.html [2] http://bpepple.wordpress.com/2008/03/14/one-step-forward-two-steps-back/ [3] http://davidnielsen.wordpress.com/2008/03/15/fedora-board-masters-of-epic-fail/ [4] http://gregdek.livejournal.com/24120.html Other Board members and I responded[5,6,7] to invite people to discuss the matter here. [5] http://skvidal.wordpress.com/2008/03/15/patching-out-non-free-code-offers-in-codeina/ [6] http://paul.frields.org/?p=945 [7] http://iquaid.org/2008/03/16/fluendo-bastien-et-al-im-sorry-fwiw/ Is someone willing to take up maintainership of Codeina for F9 at this point? Would it be (A) fitting, or (B) autocratic, for someone on the Board to take up that responsibility? Bill Nottingham indicated previously on this list that there were ways to change Codeina to allow drop-in data.[8] Is someone interested in pursuing that? [8] http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2008-February/msg00072.html -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From luis at tieguy.org Mon Mar 17 22:20:15 2008 From: luis at tieguy.org (Luis Villa) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 18:20:15 -0400 Subject: Codeina and how to proceed In-Reply-To: <1205790545.25162.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1205790545.25162.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <2cb10c440803171520pe224491p349e81a2c8fbd131@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 5:49 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > [4] http://gregdek.livejournal.com/24120.html For what it is worth, I agree with Greg[3]. We know that the mp3 patents are problematic in both the US[1] and Europe[2] and create restrictions that make mp3s non-free. Either say the mp3 stuff is non-free and drop it as well as the others, or allow them all. The middle way is a poor compromise and I'm surprised the board went that direction. Luis [1] http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/05/technology/05music.html [2] http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9887955-7.html [3] key section: "If we're going to basically take the convenience of MP3 that Fluendo provides because we *can*, but then not provide Fluendo with *any* upsell opportunities, then we're basically ripping off Fluendo's good will to make ourselves feel better about our "user experience". If the Board has decided that they don't want to point to any "non-free software" at all -- which is a fine stance to take, by the way -- then remove Codeina entirely. Either have the courage to say "we don't encourage any non-free software at all," or have the courage to say "we support your right to choose non-free software, so long as you obtain it legally, and here's how." Because the current poor compromise seems to be the worst of both worlds." From dimitris at glezos.com Tue Mar 18 00:15:51 2008 From: dimitris at glezos.com (Dimitris Glezos) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 02:15:51 +0200 Subject: Making release a snap In-Reply-To: <1205778529.351.109.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1203368690.30893.208.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47C3006A.8010408@redhat.com> <1205430102.3973.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1205696377.29562.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1205700696.13919.222.camel@calliope.phig.org> <1205778529.351.109.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <6d4237680803171715p19c7589bk2837545097f38d00@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 8:28 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Sun, 2008-03-16 at 13:51 -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > > On Sun, 2008-03-16 at 15:39 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > > Apparently there a few people for whom the original Monday meeting time > > > is bad. Is there anyone who can't do Wednesday @ 1700 UTC/1:00pm > > > EDT/10:00am PDT? > > > > > > It's probably best if everyone visit > > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PaulWFrields/ReleaseDay and fill out the > > > matrix there at your earliest convenience, even if it's just to put your > > > initials in the Wednesday 1700 UTC block to tell me that's OK for you. > > > > OK, that was easy enough. Sorry to say, I hate filling out those wiki > > table time matrices. It takes me up to 30 minutes each time because of > > calculating carefully across the dateline. That was mainly why I hadn't > > done it so far. > > OK, looks like we have critical mass for Wednesday at 1700 UTC / 1:00pm > EDT / 10:00am PDT. John Poelstra will send around an email to the > invited attendees with phone numbers and an entry code. Worksforme. -d -- Dimitris Glezos Jabber ID: glezos at jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B http://dimitris.glezos.com/ "He who gives up functionality for ease of use loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous) -- From kwade at redhat.com Tue Mar 18 00:42:47 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 17:42:47 -0700 Subject: Codeina and how to proceed In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440803171520pe224491p349e81a2c8fbd131@mail.gmail.com> References: <1205790545.25162.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2cb10c440803171520pe224491p349e81a2c8fbd131@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1205800967.13919.343.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Mon, 2008-03-17 at 18:20 -0400, Luis Villa wrote: > On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 5:49 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > [4] http://gregdek.livejournal.com/24120.html > > For what it is worth, I agree with Greg[3]. We know that the mp3 > patents are problematic in both the US[1] and Europe[2] and create > restrictions that make mp3s non-free. Either say the mp3 stuff is > non-free and drop it as well as the others, or allow them all. The > middle way is a poor compromise and I'm surprised the board went that > direction. Summary: "If one person is enslaved, none of us are free" ? I'm not against that philosophy. I just wonder how much we want to be lead by it when it lets others lead us. What happens when Reallybigistan outlaws free and open source software? Is no software truly free until we defeat their law? Yes, software patents are bad. Yes, other countries than the US are having or about to have problems with software patents. But there is a measurable body of Fedora users and contributors who do not live in Reallybigistan. What are they to do because the rest of us live under onerous laws? That is the best I can explain why I voted for a "poor compromise." I'd much rather vote my conscious and yank what is not-free-to-me, but am I being fair to the rest of the community? I have a conscious about fairness, too. - Karsten > Luis > > [1] http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/05/technology/05music.html > [2] http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9887955-7.html > > [3] key section: > > "If we're going to basically take the convenience of MP3 that Fluendo > provides because we *can*, but then not provide Fluendo with *any* > upsell opportunities, then we're basically ripping off Fluendo's good > will to make ourselves feel better about our "user experience". > > If the Board has decided that they don't want to point to any > "non-free software" at all -- which is a fine stance to take, by the > way -- then remove Codeina entirely. Either have the courage to say > "we don't encourage any non-free software at all," or have the courage > to say "we support your right to choose non-free software, so long as > you obtain it legally, and here's how." Because the current poor > compromise seems to be the worst of both worlds." > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board -- Karsten Wade, Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mmcgrath at redhat.com Tue Mar 18 00:49:30 2008 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 19:49:30 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Infrastructure Survey Message-ID: For those of you that have a moment, please see this ticket: https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/451 And in order of importance, list which bits of Infrastructure are most important to you and your team. Please remove systems which are trivially important, not important at all or that you don't use / know about. If there's services you'd like to see more in Fedora, please note that in the ticket. Thank you. -Mike From nman64 at n-man.com Tue Mar 18 03:57:44 2008 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick W. Barnes) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 22:57:44 -0500 Subject: Accepted to Google's Summer of Code 2008 Message-ID: <200803172257.51540.nman64@n-man.com> We have been accepted as a mentoring organization for Google's Summer of Code 2008. We'll be working alongside JBoss.org, as Google asked us to pool the Red Hat projects together. Our idea list is up at: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SummerCoding/2008/Ideas Improvements to that list are welcome. Anyone here who can spare a little time (less than a few hours a week, typically) is invited to help us out by volunteering as a mentor. If you're interested in mentoring, let me know and complete your profile at: http://code.google.com/soc/mentor_home.html You'll need a Google account. Make sure you select "The Fedora Project & JBoss.org" from the list of organizations. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com http://n-man.com/ LinkedIn: http://linkedin.com/in/nman64 Have I been helpful? Rate my assistance! http://rate.affero.net/nman64/ All messages cryptographically signed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenPGP -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From patrick.barnes at cat-man-du.com Mon Mar 17 22:15:17 2008 From: patrick.barnes at cat-man-du.com (Patrick W. Barnes) Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 17:15:17 -0500 Subject: Accepted to Google's Summer of Code 2008 Message-ID: <200803171715.20504.patrick.barnes@cat-man-du.com> We have been accepted as a mentoring organization for Google's Summer of Code 2008. We'll be working alongside JBoss.org, as Google asked us to pool the Red Hat projects together. Our idea list is up at: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SummerCoding/2008/Ideas Improvements to that list are welcome. Anyone here who can spare a little time (less than a few hours a week, typically) is invited to help us out by volunteering as a mentor. If you're interested in mentoring, let me know and complete your profile at: http://code.google.com/soc/mentor_home.html You'll need a Google account. Make sure you select "The Fedora Project & JBoss.org" from the list of organizations. -- Patrick W. Barnes cat-man-du, Inc. patrick.barnes at cat-man-du.com http://cat-man-du.com/ +1-806-350-8324 LinkedIn: http://linkedin.com/in/nman64 All messages cryptographically signed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenPGP -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From notting at redhat.com Tue Mar 18 19:52:34 2008 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 15:52:34 -0400 Subject: Codeina and how to proceed In-Reply-To: <1205790545.25162.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1205790545.25162.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20080318195234.GA12669@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Paul W. Frields (stickster at gmail.com) said: > Some people clearly feel like codeina is doing the Fedora world a > much-needed service, and others clearly feel that it isn't. The Board > decided last week that it's in the latter camp[1], but the decision to > keep the open-source MP3 codec offering and strip out the other > closed-source codec offerings rankled several people[2,3,4]. > > [1] http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2008-March/msg00111.html > [2] http://bpepple.wordpress.com/2008/03/14/one-step-forward-two-steps-back/ > [3] http://davidnielsen.wordpress.com/2008/03/15/fedora-board-masters-of-epic-fail/ > [4] http://gregdek.livejournal.com/24120.html > > Other Board members and I responded[5,6,7] to invite people to discuss > the matter here. > > [5] http://skvidal.wordpress.com/2008/03/15/patching-out-non-free-code-offers-in-codeina/ > [6] http://paul.frields.org/?p=945 > [7] http://iquaid.org/2008/03/16/fluendo-bastien-et-al-im-sorry-fwiw/ > > Is someone willing to take up maintainership of Codeina for F9 at this > point? Would it be (A) fitting, or (B) autocratic, for someone on the > Board to take up that responsibility? In my opinion, if you're going down the road of not shipping *any* links in codeina, then patching of codeina to just show a dialog is pointless - just nuke the package and implement the dialog elsewhere. Bill From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Tue Mar 18 20:01:18 2008 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (seth vidal) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 16:01:18 -0400 Subject: Codeina and how to proceed In-Reply-To: <20080318195234.GA12669@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1205790545.25162.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20080318195234.GA12669@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1205870478.9100.9.camel@cutter> On Tue, 2008-03-18 at 15:52 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Paul W. Frields (stickster at gmail.com) said: > > Some people clearly feel like codeina is doing the Fedora world a > > much-needed service, and others clearly feel that it isn't. The Board > > decided last week that it's in the latter camp[1], but the decision to > > keep the open-source MP3 codec offering and strip out the other > > closed-source codec offerings rankled several people[2,3,4]. > > > > [1] http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2008-March/msg00111.html > > [2] http://bpepple.wordpress.com/2008/03/14/one-step-forward-two-steps-back/ > > [3] http://davidnielsen.wordpress.com/2008/03/15/fedora-board-masters-of-epic-fail/ > > [4] http://gregdek.livejournal.com/24120.html > > > > Other Board members and I responded[5,6,7] to invite people to discuss > > the matter here. > > > > [5] http://skvidal.wordpress.com/2008/03/15/patching-out-non-free-code-offers-in-codeina/ > > [6] http://paul.frields.org/?p=945 > > [7] http://iquaid.org/2008/03/16/fluendo-bastien-et-al-im-sorry-fwiw/ > > > > Is someone willing to take up maintainership of Codeina for F9 at this > > point? Would it be (A) fitting, or (B) autocratic, for someone on the > > Board to take up that responsibility? > > In my opinion, if you're going down the road of not shipping *any* links > in codeina, then patching of codeina to just show a dialog is pointless - > just nuke the package and implement the dialog elsewhere. +1 -sv -- I only speak for me. From matt at domsch.com Tue Mar 18 22:07:20 2008 From: matt at domsch.com (Matt Domsch) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 16:07:20 -0600 Subject: Codeina and how to proceed In-Reply-To: <20080318195234.GA12669@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1205790545.25162.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20080318195234.GA12669@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20080318220718.GA5383@domsch.com> On Tue, Mar 18, 2008 at 03:52:34PM -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Paul W. Frields (stickster at gmail.com) said: > > Some people clearly feel like codeina is doing the Fedora world a > > much-needed service, and others clearly feel that it isn't. The Board > > decided last week that it's in the latter camp[1], but the decision to > > keep the open-source MP3 codec offering and strip out the other > > closed-source codec offerings rankled several people[2,3,4]. > > > > [1] http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2008-March/msg00111.html > > [2] http://bpepple.wordpress.com/2008/03/14/one-step-forward-two-steps-back/ > > [3] http://davidnielsen.wordpress.com/2008/03/15/fedora-board-masters-of-epic-fail/ > > [4] http://gregdek.livejournal.com/24120.html > > > > Other Board members and I responded[5,6,7] to invite people to discuss > > the matter here. > > > > [5] http://skvidal.wordpress.com/2008/03/15/patching-out-non-free-code-offers-in-codeina/ > > [6] http://paul.frields.org/?p=945 > > [7] http://iquaid.org/2008/03/16/fluendo-bastien-et-al-im-sorry-fwiw/ > > > > Is someone willing to take up maintainership of Codeina for F9 at this > > point? Would it be (A) fitting, or (B) autocratic, for someone on the > > Board to take up that responsibility? > > In my opinion, if you're going down the road of not shipping *any* links > in codeina, then patching of codeina to just show a dialog is pointless - > just nuke the package and implement the dialog elsewhere. +1. I'd really like to see our "education" [1] be able to describe the pitfalls of software patents, as the relate to open source / free software. It does this today. I'd like to be able to tell our constituents in non-software-patent-encumbered countries how they can get free and open source software that's legal for them. Right now we're not doing this (see below). I'd like to be able to direct people in countries where software patents are a challenge, to how they can get software that's legal for them for those features. Right now we do this, via link to Fluendo from [1]. I'm OK with this, and if Bill's "new dialog" just pops up directing at [1], great. Yes, I would prefer if we could only point people at open source patent encumbered bits legally available in such countries, but I don't believe such exists today (please correct me if I'm wrong). Without Fedora offering legal advice of course... I still can't quite reconcile our legal guidance [2], which would let us link to 3rd party software repositories, as long as we don't critique what's in those repositories, and as long as we know those repositories haven't been sued for patent infringement (for patents we shouldn't know about because we haven't critiqued), and our desire to educate people about software patents. By accounts, those two bits of information can't be on the same wiki page, nor linked from one to another directly, without risking "contributory infringement". Gotta love that. Unless we can reconcile this guidance, we can't say "go to livna or rpmfusion or wherever to get your bits if software patents don't apply to you". We can't even say on the education page "go to livna or rpmfusion to get more bits", as that implies something about software patents, given the context. Arggh. [1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/CodecBuddy [2] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2007-November/msg00050.html From kwade at redhat.com Tue Mar 18 23:42:39 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 16:42:39 -0700 Subject: the Fedora filters Message-ID: <1205883759.13919.440.camel@calliope.phig.org> A community has a set of filters, spoken or unspoken, that are used to judge various matters, such as entrance into the community, exit from the community, interaction of ideas, etc. A common mistake is to assume that "all open source communities share values and filters." In the end, we are all as different as all communities can be from one another. In Fedora we have such filtering, with priority given to values and other considerations, which we use when deciding if a package comes in to the community, what we'll ship in the distribution, how we route packets, etc. When making decisions that involve philosophy and practicality, what is the Fedora filter? Based on what I've seen around here, and on how I've seen decisions tend to be made, here is a first poke at ordering our filter. What is strange to me is that sometimes I feel as if we apply this filter in _reverse_, such as with IT decisions. Is that what we want? Do different parts of the Project apply the filters differently? These decision filters are in order of usage/importance. Please discuss: = Open source is first and best, regardless of what = = patents it leans on = We prefer our software to be 100% free but when the hairs are split, having an OSI license is the decider. In the near and far future, open source is the more practical solution. == Software patents are bad, Fedora is at risk shipping == == encumbered software == We recognize that all laws are not the same in all countries, but in the end, Fedora cannot put US-based sponsors at risk by breaking US laws. There are other similar considerations in this filter, such as US export laws for cryptography, and so forth. === Educating and changing the world === It's not good enough to live the life. We'll never see software truly be free for all unless underlying laws and values in society are addressed. Fedora is not here to force it's opinion on anyone else, but there is value in explaining about Fedora's philosophy of open source practicality. By finding ways to grow the contributor and user base, we make ourselves more relevant and are better able to change the world. ==== Usability, Pragmatism ==== We choose software solutions that are most usable and do the best job of solving our problems, user's problems, and society's problems. We recognize that everything is not free and open source, and won't be until the world is different. In the interests of running a modern distribution, we have to rely upon proprietary firmware, network hardware and storage, and other resources. Using open source is the best pragmatic solution, but may not always be an option. ===== Open Community Projects are Better ===== We seek solutions that are common and open, rather than inventing solutions just for Fedora. We prefer to push changes upstream and inherit solutions with everyone else. When given a choice, we prefer to adopt solutions that are part of an active community. ====== Budget and Resources ====== Our pockets are not infinitely deep, nor do we have endless numbers of contributors to help. Even when an idea is sound and practical by other filters, it may not be feasible to pursue that idea due to resource considerations. -- Karsten Wade, Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From notting at redhat.com Wed Mar 19 02:27:37 2008 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 22:27:37 -0400 Subject: Codeina and how to proceed In-Reply-To: <20080318220718.GA5383@domsch.com> References: <1205790545.25162.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20080318195234.GA12669@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20080318220718.GA5383@domsch.com> Message-ID: <20080319022737.GA28530@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Matt Domsch (matt at domsch.com) said: > > In my opinion, if you're going down the road of not shipping *any* links > > in codeina, then patching of codeina to just show a dialog is pointless - > > just nuke the package and implement the dialog elsewhere. > > > +1. > > I'd really like to see our "education" [1] be able to describe the > pitfalls of software patents, as the relate to open source / free > software. It does this today. So, some stats: # of unique IPs requesting the F8 mirrorlist: 1.5 million # of bittorrent downloads of F8: 293233 # of smolted F8 systems: 158407 # of unique IPs retrieving the codecbuddy page via codeina: 7433 That's somewhere between 0.5% and 4.6% of installs. Probably a lot closer to the former, especially since this counts rawhide and beta users hitting codeina, but not those users in the install base. In other words, it gets about the same rate as a random click-through internet ad. For comparison, Max's statistics page (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Statistics, chosen as a random page not oriented to end users) recieved 8808 unique visitors over the same time period. Is it worth this much effort for (apparently) little result? Bill From stickster at gmail.com Wed Mar 19 11:24:00 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 07:24:00 -0400 Subject: GPL compliance Message-ID: <1205925840.12292.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> Giving out CDs/DVDs -------------------- The Fedora Project Board wants our project to remain in compliance with Free and Open Source Software licenses. We also want to make sure our Ambassadors are properly following those licenses when they distribute Fedora. By making sure we are meeting our obligations under these licenses, we protect Fedora and all its contributors, including you, our Ambassadors. The Board asks you to do the following at events where you hand out CDs or DVDs of Fedora: 1) Let people know that source code for everything on the CDs/DVDs is available for download from fedoraproject.org. Place at least a simple piece of paper on the table at the booth, which states: Source Code available on http://fedoraproject.org. Physical media with source code available upon request. 2) Bring blank CDs, a computer with a CD burner, and a copy of the SRPMS directory matching the Fedora release for which you're handing out media. Encourage anyone who asks for the source code to download it from fedoraproject.org. If someone insists, burn them CDs containing the source code. You will probably not need to do this often, but this step is necessary to comply with the licenses. http://domsch.com/linux/fedora/fedora-8-livecd-srpms.txt contains the list of SRPMS corresponding to the packages on the Fedora 8 i686 and x86_64 Live images. Use whichever tools you like to download and burn those to media. Thank you for your attention to this matter, and thank you for supporting Fedora! Reasons Why This is Important ----------------------------- The Fedora Project distributes its software under terms of each of the licenses, including the GNU General Public License, version 2. These licenses often have a requirement, such as in GPLv2 paragraph 3, to make the "corresponding source code" available to recipients of binary code. The Fedora Project publishes the binaries, and source code, on the same web sites for download. By that definition, the Fedora Project distributes under paragraph 3(a). Refer also to: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal/Distribution When Ambassadors hand out CDs and DVDs at events, they need to be able to give recipients the corresponding source code on physical media. One way to do this is to produce (or be ready to burn on-site) a few CDs with the source code, as downloaded from fedoraproject.org. At events, you could post a sign such as: Source Code available on http://fedoraproject.org. CDs with source code available upon request. Now, if someone at the show asks, you can encourage them to download the code themselves (and become a contributor to Fedora). If they insist on getting source code on physical media, then provide them with CDs with the source code. This is an additional bit of work on the part of our Ambassadors, but it protects both the Ambassadors, and the Fedora Project, from any undue criticism and future obligation under these licenses. Matt Domsch has started a project on fedorahosted.org, called 'correspondingsource'. The goal of 'correspondingsource' is to make it easy to get the Source RPMs for any binary bits that may be on any Fedora media. This facility would allow the Fedora Project to start relying upon GPLv2 paragraph 3(b). GPLv2 paragraph 3(b) requires us to make the source code available for at least three (3) years (from the last date anyone hands out a CD/DVD - so quite a long time). This capability is not in place today - the code is in the Fedora Package Source Code Control system (currently CVS), but we don't hang on to the built SRPMS indefinitely, nor do we have a way to easily generate an ISO image with SRPMS on it. Matt would welcome help with this project, and the Board encourages Fedora contributors to get involved to help ease any burden on the community. Signed, The Fedora Project Board Paul W. Frields, Chair -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From matt at domsch.com Wed Mar 19 11:49:25 2008 From: matt at domsch.com (Matt Domsch) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 05:49:25 -0600 Subject: GPL compliance In-Reply-To: <1205925840.12292.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1205925840.12292.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20080319114924.GA23331@domsch.com> On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 07:24:00AM -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > http://domsch.com/linux/fedora/fedora-8-livecd-srpms.txt > contains the list of SRPMS corresponding to the packages on > the Fedora 8 i686 and x86_64 Live images. Use whichever tools > you like to download and burn those to media. http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=correspondingsource.git;a=tree;f=srpmlists;hb=HEAD has the list of SRPMS for all the live images now. We'll be adding new live image SRPM lists here. Thanks, Matt From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Mar 19 13:41:01 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 19:11:01 +0530 Subject: Codeina and how to proceed In-Reply-To: <20080319022737.GA28530@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1205790545.25162.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20080318195234.GA12669@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20080318220718.GA5383@domsch.com> <20080319022737.GA28530@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <47E117ED.4080703@fedoraproject.org> Bill Nottingham wrote: > Matt Domsch (matt at domsch.com) said: >>> In my opinion, if you're going down the road of not shipping *any* links >>> in codeina, then patching of codeina to just show a dialog is pointless - >>> just nuke the package and implement the dialog elsewhere. >> >> +1. >> >> I'd really like to see our "education" [1] be able to describe the >> pitfalls of software patents, as the relate to open source / free >> software. It does this today. > > So, some stats: > > # of unique IPs requesting the F8 mirrorlist: 1.5 million > # of bittorrent downloads of F8: 293233 > # of smolted F8 systems: 158407 > # of unique IPs retrieving the codecbuddy page via codeina: 7433 > > That's somewhere between 0.5% and 4.6% of installs. Probably a lot closer > to the former, especially since this counts rawhide and beta users hitting > codeina, but not those users in the install base. In other words, it gets > about the same rate as a random click-through internet ad. > > For comparison, Max's statistics page (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Statistics, > chosen as a random page not oriented to end users) recieved 8808 unique > visitors over the same time period. > > Is it worth this much effort for (apparently) little result? Note that Codeina as available in Fedora 8 GA does not even display the initial dialog due to a bug and Rhythmbox was setup as default for music so the numbers here can be quite skewed. Rahul From stickster at gmail.com Wed Mar 19 15:03:28 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 15:03:28 +0000 Subject: the Fedora filters In-Reply-To: <1205883759.13919.440.camel@calliope.phig.org> References: <1205883759.13919.440.camel@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <1205939008.12292.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> Thanks for posting this, Karsten. Since we have a lot of subscribers to this list who wouldn't know otherwise, I wanted to mention that this comes directly out of a conversation we had at the Board meeting yesterday. I'm glad you beat me to it, because I like what you did better than what I drafted. :-) I've subsumed some of my thoughts into comments below.... On Tue, 2008-03-18 at 16:42 -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > A community has a set of filters, spoken or unspoken, that are > used to judge various matters, such as entrance into the > community, exit from the community, interaction of ideas, etc. A > common mistake is to assume that "all open source communities > share values and filters." In the end, we are all as different > as all communities can be from one another. Right. The values that the Fedora community has represent a common ground that we can all live with, so that we can continue to work with each other and advance the project. Even inside this project there are differences of opinion, and sometimes friction, but friction != bad. Friction can be one way to light a fire (get things done). > In Fedora we have such filtering, with priority given to values > and other considerations, which we use when deciding if a package > comes in to the community, what we'll ship in the distribution, > how we route packets, etc. > > When making decisions that involve philosophy and practicality, > what is the Fedora filter? Based on what I've seen around here, > and on how I've seen decisions tend to be made, here is a first > poke at ordering our filter. What is strange to me is that > sometimes I feel as if we apply this filter in _reverse_, such as > with IT decisions. Is that what we want? Do different parts of > the Project apply the filters differently? > > These decision filters are in order of usage/importance. Please > discuss: I note that 12 hours pass without comment -- which really *ought* to be a rarity for discussing universals like this, especially when posts about, e.g., how to use %{?dist} generate huge response -- not that we don't have to solve those problems too. ;-) But *why* do we solve them? > = Open source is first and best, regardless of what = > = patents it leans on = > > We prefer our software to be 100% free but when the hairs > are split, having an OSI license is the decider. > > In the near and far future, open source is the more > practical solution. > > > == Software patents are bad, Fedora is at risk shipping == > == encumbered software == > > We recognize that all laws are not the same in all > countries, but in the end, Fedora cannot put US-based > sponsors at risk by breaking US laws. > > There are other similar considerations in this filter, such > as US export laws for cryptography, and so forth. > > === Educating and changing the world === > > It's not good enough to live the life. We'll never see > software truly be free for all unless underlying laws and > values in society are addressed. > > Fedora is not here to force it's opinion on anyone else, but > there is value in explaining about Fedora's philosophy of > open source practicality. > > By finding ways to grow the contributor and user base, we > make ourselves more relevant and are better able to change > the world. I like the ordering of #3 compared to the first two, because it makes it clear that we need to strive to do the right thing, even if that means we don't get voted as the Homecoming Queen every time. If the order changes, and we put this item first, our message instead is: "The most important issue to Fedora is to appeal to as many people as possible, because it means we're getting more users familiar with FOSS." I don't think that message needs to be labeled as pure evil for us to disagree with it. > ==== Usability, Pragmatism ==== > > We choose software solutions that are most usable and do the > best job of solving our problems, user's problems, and > society's problems. > > We recognize that everything is not free and open source, > and won't be until the world is different. In the interests > of running a modern distribution, we have to rely upon > proprietary firmware, network hardware and storage, and > other resources. > > Using open source is the best pragmatic solution, but may > not always be an option. > > ===== Open Community Projects are Better ===== > > We seek solutions that are common and open, rather than > inventing solutions just for Fedora. We prefer to push > changes upstream and inherit solutions with everyone else. > When given a choice, we prefer to adopt solutions that are > part of an active community. > > > ====== Budget and Resources ====== > > Our pockets are not infinitely deep, nor do we have endless > numbers of contributors to help. Even when an idea is sound > and practical by other filters, it may not be feasible to > pursue that idea due to resource considerations. Here's a thought about the "filter" concept: Some of these filters are emergency cutoffs, like legality or resource constraints. In other cases the filters are an escape valve that relieves pressure. Is there room for the concept of weighting for these filters, or (in the sense of "perfect" being the enemy of the "good," and "good" being the enemy of "good enough") is binary *good enough* for decision making?` -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From tcallawa at redhat.com Wed Mar 19 15:14:43 2008 From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom "spot" Callaway) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 11:14:43 -0400 Subject: the Fedora filters In-Reply-To: <1205883759.13919.440.camel@calliope.phig.org> References: <1205883759.13919.440.camel@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <1205939683.2855.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2008-03-18 at 16:42 -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > A community has a set of filters, spoken or unspoken, that are > used to judge various matters, such as entrance into the > community, exit from the community, interaction of ideas, etc. A > common mistake is to assume that "all open source communities > share values and filters." In the end, we are all as different > as all communities can be from one another. > > In Fedora we have such filtering, with priority given to values > and other considerations, which we use when deciding if a package > comes in to the community, what we'll ship in the distribution, > how we route packets, etc. > > When making decisions that involve philosophy and practicality, > what is the Fedora filter? Based on what I've seen around here, > and on how I've seen decisions tend to be made, here is a first > poke at ordering our filter. What is strange to me is that > sometimes I feel as if we apply this filter in _reverse_, such as > with IT decisions. Is that what we want? Do different parts of > the Project apply the filters differently? > > These decision filters are in order of usage/importance. Please > discuss: I think these need some tweaking, here is how my thought process goes: = We cannot break US laws = Software patents and the DMCA are lame, but as long as Red Hat is a US company, we have to play by the rules. This means respecting trademarks and copyright. == Free Software is best == We prefer our software to be 100% free. Free as in FSF. === Open Source is almost as good as Free === In the few cases where something is OSI-approved but not FSF Free, we'll take it, but we'll work to free it. (Note: The only item that currently hits this filter is the Artistic 1.0 license) ==== Educating and changing the world ==== ===== Usability, Pragmatism ===== ====== Open Community Projects are Better ====== ======= Budget and Resources ======= ~spot From tibbs at math.uh.edu Wed Mar 19 15:19:51 2008 From: tibbs at math.uh.edu (Jason L Tibbitts III) Date: 19 Mar 2008 10:19:51 -0500 Subject: the Fedora filters In-Reply-To: <1205939683.2855.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1205883759.13919.440.camel@calliope.phig.org> <1205939683.2855.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: >>>>> "TC" == Tom \"spot\" Callaway writes: TC> In the few cases where something is OSI-approved but not FSF Free, TC> we'll take it, but we'll work to free it. (Note: The only item TC> that currently hits this filter is the Artistic 1.0 license) That's a bit contradictory, though, because we currently won't take code that is (only) under the old artistic license. - J< From tcallawa at redhat.com Wed Mar 19 15:32:48 2008 From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom "spot" Callaway) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 11:32:48 -0400 Subject: the Fedora filters In-Reply-To: References: <1205883759.13919.440.camel@calliope.phig.org> <1205939683.2855.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1205940768.23340.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2008-03-19 at 10:19 -0500, Jason L Tibbitts III wrote: > >>>>> "TC" == Tom \"spot\" Callaway writes: > > TC> In the few cases where something is OSI-approved but not FSF Free, > TC> we'll take it, but we'll work to free it. (Note: The only item > TC> that currently hits this filter is the Artistic 1.0 license) > > That's a bit contradictory, though, because we currently won't take > code that is (only) under the old artistic license. Yes, but I've also not yet pulled out all the code already in Fedora which is under Artistic 1.0. To be fair, I plan to do so after F9 hits. I've also sent in a request for the OSI to drop Artistic 1.0, which is pending at this time. ~spot From poelstra at redhat.com Wed Mar 19 15:44:31 2008 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 08:44:31 -0700 Subject: the Fedora filters In-Reply-To: <1205883759.13919.440.camel@calliope.phig.org> References: <1205883759.13919.440.camel@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <47E134DF.2040603@redhat.com> Karsten 'quaid' Wade said the following on 03/18/2008 04:42 PM Pacific <> > === Educating and changing the world === > > It's not good enough to live the life. We'll never see > software truly be free for all unless underlying laws and > values in society are addressed. This is BIG (laws and values) and vague at the same time :) Can you be more specific? > Fedora is not here to force it's opinion on anyone else, but > there is value in explaining about Fedora's philosophy of > open source practicality. What is "open source practicality" ? > By finding ways to grow the contributor and user base, we > make ourselves more relevant and are better able to change > the world. > > ==== Usability, Pragmatism ==== > > We choose software solutions that are most usable and do the > best job of solving our problems, user's problems, and > society's problems. > > We recognize that everything is not free and open source, > and won't be until the world is different. In the interests > of running a modern distribution, we have to rely upon > proprietary firmware, network hardware and storage, and > other resources. I don't follow. The section starts by talking about Open Source *Software* and then includes *Hardware* in passing. Fedora has always been about FREE SOFTWARE. Are you suggesting this be changed to include FREE HARDWARE too? > Using open source is the best pragmatic solution, but may > not always be an option. > This doesn't make sense. "Pragmatic" defined along the lines of "practical" does not make sense if the open source software solution you have is horrible and doesn't allow you to achieve your objective in a reasonable way. It sounds like you're wanting to say, "Using open source software is *always* practical. You are practical because you are using an open source solution." which doesn't strike me as an overly strong or compelling argument to someone unfamiliar with open source or who who has found their existing open source solutions to be far from mature and thus impractical. I am not being "practical" if it takes me 20 minutes to schedule a 30 minute meeting because I've "chosen" to use an open source calendaring "solution". Is there a better way to understand what you are advocating? John From jwboyer at gmail.com Wed Mar 19 16:29:15 2008 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 11:29:15 -0500 Subject: the Fedora filters In-Reply-To: <1205939008.12292.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1205883759.13919.440.camel@calliope.phig.org> <1205939008.12292.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20080319112915.6070d3de@weaponx> On Wed, 19 Mar 2008 15:03:28 +0000 "Paul W. Frields" wrote: > Thanks for posting this, Karsten. Since we have a lot of subscribers to > this list who wouldn't know otherwise, I wanted to mention that this > comes directly out of a conversation we had at the Board meeting > yesterday. I'm glad you beat me to it, because I like what you did > better than what I drafted. :-) I've subsumed some of my thoughts into > comments below.... > > On Tue, 2008-03-18 at 16:42 -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > > A community has a set of filters, spoken or unspoken, that are > > used to judge various matters, such as entrance into the > > community, exit from the community, interaction of ideas, etc. A > > common mistake is to assume that "all open source communities > > share values and filters." In the end, we are all as different > > as all communities can be from one another. > > Right. The values that the Fedora community has represent a common > ground that we can all live with, so that we can continue to work with > each other and advance the project. Even inside this project there are > differences of opinion, and sometimes friction, but friction != bad. > Friction can be one way to light a fire (get things done). > > > In Fedora we have such filtering, with priority given to values > > and other considerations, which we use when deciding if a package > > comes in to the community, what we'll ship in the distribution, > > how we route packets, etc. > > > > When making decisions that involve philosophy and practicality, > > what is the Fedora filter? Based on what I've seen around here, > > and on how I've seen decisions tend to be made, here is a first > > poke at ordering our filter. What is strange to me is that > > sometimes I feel as if we apply this filter in _reverse_, such as > > with IT decisions. Is that what we want? Do different parts of > > the Project apply the filters differently? > > > > These decision filters are in order of usage/importance. Please > > discuss: > > I note that 12 hours pass without comment -- which really *ought* to be > a rarity for discussing universals like this, especially when posts > about, e.g., how to use %{?dist} generate huge response -- not that we > don't have to solve those problems too. ;-) > > But *why* do we solve them? Not everyone cares about manifestos, politics, and ideals. Also, the enormity of something like this could be enough to make people avoid it because they see it as a never-ending task. %{?dist} usage (and other technical issues) are much more discrete and finite in nature. Or it could simply be that people are still thinking about what was written. josh From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed Mar 19 18:35:49 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 10:35:49 -0800 Subject: spins and hosting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <604aa7910803191135t4cf702e6tc07ec84dde313556@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 7:16 PM, Mike McGrath wrote: > So we're at the point where we can host spins, how far off are we from > having the official policy up and ready? The reason I ask is we've been > asked to link to an external site. There's no technical reason we can't > do this but at our infrastructure meeting today we decided to make sure to > run this ticket by those who have been more involved in the decisions, > policies, etc. > > https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/446 Sorry for not replying to this earlier I've been sick. There is one outstanding issue with pointing to externally hosted spins that needs to be resolved. If the spins are built outside the Fedora build system, do we have a reasonable means to verify that the image we are pointing to contains what is the expected result of running the livecd tools against a contributed kickstart file? There was a short discussion on -devel-list about using rpm -V on a mounted image, to verify package payload and signatures. This would provide some level of verification that Fedora Project signed packages were used in the image compose. But its not clear that this sort of check was considered sufficient. So there's still an open question. Once an image is built, are there checks that can be performed to ensure the image is what we expect? My understanding is that the compose process is such that checksums will differ with every image build, so we can't use any sort of simple community checksum verification process. Or will externally hosted binaries still need to be generated inside the Fedora build system, to ensure that the final binary image was not influenced by the compose environment. -jef From mspevack at redhat.com Wed Mar 19 19:33:08 2008 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 15:33:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Codeina and how to proceed In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440803171520pe224491p349e81a2c8fbd131@mail.gmail.com> References: <1205790545.25162.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2cb10c440803171520pe224491p349e81a2c8fbd131@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Mar 2008, Luis Villa wrote: > For what it is worth, I agree with Greg[3]. We know that the mp3 > patents are problematic in both the US[1] and Europe[2] and create > restrictions that make mp3s non-free. Either say the mp3 stuff is > non-free and drop it as well as the others, or allow them all. The > middle way is a poor compromise and I'm surprised the board went that > direction. This is neither here nor there, but some level of responsibility needs to fall on me. Back in January 2007 when we first made the "let's do Codeina" decision, I remember that the Board's feeling was not unanimous, but that the majority liked the idea of trying it as an experiment, seeing what happened, and being transparent about positives and negatives. My personal feeling at the time was very mixed, and regardless, the majority of the Fedora Board is supposed to rule. The Fedora Project Leader's veto, which I *could* have used, was not something that I wanted to ever do, and certianly not on a decision in which I wasn't 100% convinced that the majority of the Board was wrong. Put it this way: In the general case (not talking about Codenia here) if I couldn't argue persuasively enough to make the majority of the Board agree with me, then it would be quite autocratic to pull out the veto card. In short, I consider the Codeina experiment a victory for the *process* and *democracy* that the Board was put in place to ensure, but a failed experiment in general. I'd like to personally apologize to Bastien and Thomas for Codeina -- I think I handled it very poorly over a year ago and it caused them both aggravation and trouble that is ultimately my fault. --Max From mfarrellee at redhat.com Wed Mar 19 22:03:15 2008 From: mfarrellee at redhat.com (Matthew Farrellee) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 17:03:15 -0500 Subject: Proposal: Fedora@Home Project In-Reply-To: <1205191044.4555.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <47CEB2C2.1010803@redhat.com> <47CEB33F.7050108@gmail.com> <47CEBE85.9060409@redhat.com> <604aa7910803050850y7cd90832s6e2436768f122d58@mail.gmail.com> <47D53CAA.2040506@redhat.com> <604aa7910803101004i3ec801b2we2c3f77e321c57b@mail.gmail.com> <47D5A525.7020701@redhat.com> <604aa7910803101516v31641519t1b98837c093cbe44@mail.gmail.com> <1205191044.4555.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <47E18DA3.3080301@redhat.com> Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Mon, 2008-03-10 at 18:26 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: >> On Mon, 10 Mar 2008, Jeff Spaleta wrote: >> >>> I see this being more interesting as a way to have Fedora as a >>> community interact with outside computing efforts. Off the top of my >>> head, let's say we had this infrastructure up and running. Could we >>> reach out to the blender community and work with them by offering the >>> Fedora grid to help render scenes of another community funded animated >>> film? >>> >>> -jef"I hope Greg is reading this"spaleta >> Greg is reading this. >> >> But Greg doesn't understand enough to be useful. So maybe someone can >> draw me a picture, or point me to a previously drawn picture that I may >> have studiously ignored. The picture should answer these questions: >> >> 1. What does a developer need to do to make an application "grid aware"? > > Sometimes nothing; pieces built around the application include the > parameters needed for a particular work unit of the application. > Sometimes lots. Hopefully this is one of the former cases. Nothing, if you want to run just about anything. More than nothing and less than lots, if you want to run something that can use functionality such as managing checkpoints. >> 2. What does a user need to do to farm out activity to the grid? > > Again, depends highly on the implementation, but often it consists of > nothing more than delivering executables to an interface and then > telling that interface how to parameterize the runs. The user needs to write a description of their job, which includes the application to run, parameters, and input files. >> 3. What application could be a test case for this grid functionality? > > Blender or povray are great test cases since you can chunk up a scene as > desired and have separate processors work independently on their chunks. Sounds like Jef had a line on this. Best, matt From kanarip at kanarip.com Wed Mar 19 23:07:47 2008 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 00:07:47 +0100 Subject: GPL compliance In-Reply-To: <1205925840.12292.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1205925840.12292.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <47E19CC3.9050001@kanarip.com> Paul W. Frields wrote: > Matt would welcome help with this project, and the Board > encourages Fedora contributors to get involved to help ease any > burden on the community. > Note that it isn't particularly difficult to let livecd-tools harvest the srpms of the rpms it is using. We've done this in Revisor already, and now that livecd-tools' imgcreate is on it's way to land in Fedora 9, we can patch it (imgcreate) to add this feature. -- Kind regards, Jeroen van Meeuwen -kanarip From matt at domsch.com Thu Mar 20 01:47:39 2008 From: matt at domsch.com (Matt Domsch) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 19:47:39 -0600 Subject: GPL compliance In-Reply-To: <47E19CC3.9050001@kanarip.com> References: <1205925840.12292.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47E19CC3.9050001@kanarip.com> Message-ID: <20080320014739.GA29431@domsch.com> On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 12:07:47AM +0100, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > Paul W. Frields wrote: > >Matt would welcome help with this project, and the Board > >encourages Fedora contributors to get involved to help ease any > >burden on the community. > > > > Note that it isn't particularly difficult to let livecd-tools harvest > the srpms of the rpms it is using. We've done this in Revisor already, > and now that livecd-tools' imgcreate is on it's way to land in Fedora 9, > we can patch it (imgcreate) to add this feature. yep, and I look forward to it having that in both tools. Fortunately it wasn't too hard to hack together a little script to get the list for the existing CDs. From tchung at fedoraproject.org Thu Mar 20 06:26:39 2008 From: tchung at fedoraproject.org (Thomas Chung) Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2008 23:26:39 -0700 Subject: GPL compliance In-Reply-To: <1205925840.12292.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1205925840.12292.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <369bce3b0803192326t30b14ffdxa1eaa9d025ce78d5@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 4:24 AM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > Giving out CDs/DVDs > -------------------- > > The Fedora Project Board wants our project to remain in > compliance with Free and Open Source Software licenses. We also > want to make sure our Ambassadors are properly following those > licenses when they distribute Fedora. By making sure we are > meeting our obligations under these licenses, we protect Fedora > and all its contributors, including you, our Ambassadors. > > The Board asks you to do the following at events where > you hand out CDs or DVDs of Fedora: Per Board's recommendation, Fedora Free Media Program will offer a media with source code beginning next month. We also posted a notice on our home page. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Distribution/FreeMedia Regards, -- Thomas Chung http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung From poelstra at redhat.com Thu Mar 20 16:42:28 2008 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 09:42:28 -0700 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2008-MAR-18 Message-ID: <47E293F4.8060109@redhat.com> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/Meetings/2008-03-18 == Roll Call == Attendees: Matt Domsch, Karsten Wade, Paul Frields, Steve Dickson, John Poelstra, Seth Vidal, Bill Nottingham, Chris Aillon, Dennis Gilmore Regrets: Jef Spaleta, Bob McWirther == Followup to Previous Business == === Secondary Arch Hosting (2008-02-19) === * Can Fedora host binaries for secondary architectures? * Change from original proposal * makes it easier to get new mirrors and use mirror manager * DECISION: board approves of Fedora hosting binaries for secondary architectures * '''FOLLOWUP 2008-02-26''' * Infrastructure group raising issue with lack of space * Are distribution methods a concern for growing secondary architectures? * OWNERS: Seth and Matt; Spot also assisting * ACTIONS: reach out to existing relationships and pursue storage opportunities * '''FOLLOWUP 2008-03-04''' * Seth to do more followup with BU--potentially 150G * Spot reports 450G from HP * '''RESOLVED on 2008-03-18''' * The board supports using resources for this purpose and leaves discretion for space usage to the Fedora Infrastructure group * The board also supports an infrastructure decision of 'sorry, can't do that now - not enough space' if that is the case too * Board members will continue to pursue additional opportunities for storage space with different vendors === Post-release updates of custom spins (2008-01-29) === * Should the board have to approve them? * We will hosts as many spins as we have space for * Need to determine the hosting requirements and limits * How long will spins stay around? * http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/RahulSundaram/SpinsProcess * ACTION: Jef to review Rahul's proposal and report back to board * OWNER: Jef Spaleta * '''FOLLOWUP on 2008-03-18''' * Jef was unable to attend today--deferred to next meeting. === Codeina (2008-02-26) === * Still not comfortable that we are pointing people to content that is not "Free and Open Source software" * Cannot suitably fix codeina in the Fedora 9 time frame * ACTIONS: 1. Review email thread: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2007-November/msg00050.html 1. Move discussion to fedora-advisory-board list to formulate a solution there 1. Propose patching out other for sale non-free plugins 1. Bill Nottingham to make sure that live spin includes codeina correctly * '''FOLLOWUP on 2008-03-11''' * Majority board vote in favor of patching out all other ''for sale'' non-free plugins leaving the freely available mp3 codec 1. Three members absent 1. One abstention * Paul to check with codeina maintainer (Bastien Nocera) and Fluendo (Thomas Vander Stichele) * Paul to send followup to fedora-advisory-board-list * '''FOLLOWUP on 2008-03-18''' * Discussion of past week's events in blogs and fedora-advisory-board list * Several different philosophical viewpoints on the board * It appears that the board itself needs to further refine its philosophical beliefs * This should provide clearer guidance in the future for making decisions like this * Could we tie-in to marketing plan that marketing SIG is working to give greater focus and backing? * Impasse seems to center around "Free Software" vs. "Customer Usability" * Take discussion to fedora-advisory-board 1) What to do w/ codeina package? a) remove the orphaned package from Fedora" -- https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/users/packages/orphan b) include a new package to do what original intention was 2) What should guiding philosophies of the board and Fedora be? * Does the issue with swfdec-mozilla, on top of the community discontent, show that we are not having enough communication with FESCo? * We need to find the balance between FESCo issues and Board issues and make sure we're empowering them to decide matters when needed. == New Business == === GPLv2 distribution === * Fedora distributes under section 3a and not section 3b * ACTIONS: * Paul Frields to send link to Ambassadors providing guidance on compliance * http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal/Distribution == Future Business (discuss at a future meeting) == === Next Meeting === * Date: 2008-03-25 * Time: 14:00 EDT From stickster at gmail.com Thu Mar 20 21:14:18 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 21:14:18 +0000 Subject: [Fwd: Re: Asterisk and Town Hall meeting] Message-ID: <1206047658.27516.194.camel@localhost.localdomain> The Board will probably need to fall back to IRC for its April "town hall" style meeting. We may, in fact, be using that method for a while to give our Infrastructure people some breathing room -- they are handling a *LOT* of parallel tasks right now and need to have time to do them right. -------- Forwarded Message -------- > From: Jeffrey Ollie > Reply-To: fedora-infrastructure-list at redhat.com > To: fedora-infrastructure-list at redhat.com > Subject: Re: Asterisk and Town Hall meeting > Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2008 15:17:20 -0500 > > On 3/18/08, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > The Fedora Board should be doing another "town hall" style meeting on > > Tuesday April 1. (No fooling.) In March we postponed plans until then > > to use Asterisk and Gstreamer to provide some sort of listening > > capability for community members. > > > > (1) How is that going? > > There's been a little work done since my PoC. Right now the big tasks are: > > 1) Getting FAS2 and Asterisk hooked up. I've started some work on > that and am waiting for some feedback from Ricky, Toshio, and Mike. > > 2) Getting a IRC bot set up so that people can control the streaming. > Again, I've started some work in this area but nothing's ready yet. > > > (2) Can we plan to use that solution for the April 1 meeting? > > I wouldn't count on it. I'd prefer to have some smaller-scale > tests/demonstrations scheduled to work the kinks out before a > full-scale town meeting. It'd also be nice to get flumotion set up so > that we can live webcast the next fudcon. > > > (3) If not, how can we schedule so as not to crunch the team around the > > F9 release timetable? > > jsmith and myself aren't that involved with the F9 release, so that > shouldn't be a problem. > > Jeff > > _______________________________________________ > Fedora-infrastructure-list mailing list > Fedora-infrastructure-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-infrastructure-list -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Sat Mar 22 03:28:48 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 20:28:48 -0700 Subject: the Fedora filters In-Reply-To: <1205939008.12292.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1205883759.13919.440.camel@calliope.phig.org> <1205939008.12292.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1206156528.29963.33.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Wed, 2008-03-19 at 15:03 +0000, Paul W. Frields wrote: > Thanks for posting this, Karsten. Since we have a lot of subscribers to > this list who wouldn't know otherwise, I wanted to mention that this > comes directly out of a conversation we had at the Board meeting > yesterday. Sorry I didn't presage with that. More than just the Board needs a guiding filter in decision making. Packaging standards have been a stalwart maintainer in this realm for a while. > On Tue, 2008-03-18 at 16:42 -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > > A community has a set of filters, spoken or unspoken, that are > > used to judge various matters, such as entrance into the > > community, exit from the community, interaction of ideas, etc. A > > common mistake is to assume that "all open source communities > > share values and filters." In the end, we are all as different > > as all communities can be from one another. > > Right. The values that the Fedora community has represent a common > ground that we can all live with, so that we can continue to work with > each other and advance the project. Even inside this project there are > differences of opinion, and sometimes friction, but friction != bad. > Friction can be one way to light a fire (get things done). This may be why we sometimes re-sort the filters depending on the situation. > > > = Open source is first and best, regardless of what = > > = patents it leans on = > > > > We prefer our software to be 100% free but when the hairs > > are split, having an OSI license is the decider. > > > > In the near and far future, open source is the more > > practical solution. > > > > > > == Software patents are bad, Fedora is at risk shipping == > > == encumbered software == > > > > We recognize that all laws are not the same in all > > countries, but in the end, Fedora cannot put US-based > > sponsors at risk by breaking US laws. > > > > There are other similar considerations in this filter, such > > as US export laws for cryptography, and so forth. > > > > === Educating and changing the world === > > > > It's not good enough to live the life. We'll never see > > software truly be free for all unless underlying laws and > > values in society are addressed. > > > > Fedora is not here to force it's opinion on anyone else, but > > there is value in explaining about Fedora's philosophy of > > open source practicality. > > > > By finding ways to grow the contributor and user base, we > > make ourselves more relevant and are better able to change > > the world. > > I like the ordering of #3 compared to the first two, because it makes it > clear that we need to strive to do the right thing, even if that means > we don't get voted as the Homecoming Queen every time. If the order > changes, and we put this item first, our message instead is: > > "The most important issue to Fedora is to appeal to as many people as > possible, because it means we're getting more users familiar with FOSS." > > I don't think that message needs to be labeled as pure evil for us to > disagree with it. Exactly the sort of clarity we gain with a filter. It doesn't put a judgment on the individual filter because we order it differently than another person might. > > ==== Usability, Pragmatism ==== > > > > We choose software solutions that are most usable and do the > > best job of solving our problems, user's problems, and > > society's problems. > > > > We recognize that everything is not free and open source, > > and won't be until the world is different. In the interests > > of running a modern distribution, we have to rely upon > > proprietary firmware, network hardware and storage, and > > other resources. > > > > Using open source is the best pragmatic solution, but may > > not always be an option. > > > > ===== Open Community Projects are Better ===== > > > > We seek solutions that are common and open, rather than > > inventing solutions just for Fedora. We prefer to push > > changes upstream and inherit solutions with everyone else. > > When given a choice, we prefer to adopt solutions that are > > part of an active community. > > > > > > ====== Budget and Resources ====== > > > > Our pockets are not infinitely deep, nor do we have endless > > numbers of contributors to help. Even when an idea is sound > > and practical by other filters, it may not be feasible to > > pursue that idea due to resource considerations. > > Here's a thought about the "filter" concept: Some of these filters are > emergency cutoffs, like legality or resource constraints. In other > cases the filters are an escape valve that relieves pressure. Is there > room for the concept of weighting for these filters, or (in the sense of > "perfect" being the enemy of the "good," and "good" being the enemy of > "good enough") is binary *good enough* for decision making?` As Spot's order points out, there are some binary decision filters ("Avoid jail -- yes or no?"). As you say, there are some where a good enough can be applied. Redistributable firmware seems to fall into the latter category, while patent encumbered software falls in the former. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Sr. Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Sat Mar 22 03:38:53 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 20:38:53 -0700 Subject: the Fedora filters In-Reply-To: <1205939683.2855.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1205883759.13919.440.camel@calliope.phig.org> <1205939683.2855.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1206157133.29963.39.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Wed, 2008-03-19 at 11:14 -0400, Tom "spot" Callaway wrote: > I think these need some tweaking, here is how my thought process goes: > > = We cannot break US laws = > Software patents and the DMCA are lame, > but as long as Red Hat is a US company, > we have to play by the rules. This means > respecting trademarks and copyright. Maybe we can put this as a zeroeth filter, always the first and not available for reorder. It's also a binary filter. > == Free Software is best == > We prefer our software to be 100% free. > Free as in FSF. I'm going to drag firmware and such in here; not because I'm arguing for them as a form of software. They are permitted in our distribution in ways that either are exceptions or orthogonal to the free filter and the open source filter. Or is the argument they are not even part of the equation because rule them to be "not software"? - Karsten > === Open Source is almost as good as Free === > In the few cases where something is OSI-approved > but not FSF Free, we'll take it, but we'll work to > free it. (Note: The only item that currently hits this > filter is the Artistic 1.0 license) > > ==== Educating and changing the world ==== > > ===== Usability, Pragmatism ===== > > ====== Open Community Projects are Better ====== > > ======= Budget and Resources ======= > > ~spot > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board -- Karsten Wade, Sr. Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From tcallawa at redhat.com Sat Mar 22 03:45:24 2008 From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom "spot" Callaway) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 23:45:24 -0400 Subject: the Fedora filters In-Reply-To: <1206157133.29963.39.camel@calliope.phig.org> References: <1205883759.13919.440.camel@calliope.phig.org> <1205939683.2855.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1206157133.29963.39.camel@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <1206157524.4438.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2008-03-21 at 20:38 -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > I'm going to drag firmware and such in here; not because I'm arguing for > them as a form of software. They are permitted in our distribution in > ways that either are exceptions or orthogonal to the free filter and the > open source filter. Or is the argument they are not even part of the > equation because rule them to be "not software"? I really don't want to have the religious argument, so let me just say that we treat firmware as a special exception to the rules. I'd have to draw a flow chart to explain it, and email is a very poor medium for this. Firmware isn't the only exception, some specific content is also handled under less stringent restrictions than software. ~spot From kwade at redhat.com Sat Mar 22 04:00:29 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 21:00:29 -0700 Subject: the Fedora filters In-Reply-To: <47E134DF.2040603@redhat.com> References: <1205883759.13919.440.camel@calliope.phig.org> <47E134DF.2040603@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1206158429.29963.60.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Wed, 2008-03-19 at 08:44 -0700, John Poelstra wrote: > Karsten 'quaid' Wade said the following on 03/18/2008 04:42 PM Pacific > <> > > > === Educating and changing the world === > > > > It's not good enough to live the life. We'll never see > > software truly be free for all unless underlying laws and > > values in society are addressed. > > This is BIG (laws and values) and vague at the same time :) Can you be > more specific? That's hard, because they are cultural and legal at the same time. Each set of circumstances has to be addressed locally, probably by someone immersed in the culture. Take the recent vote against OOXML in India. It was local open source/open standards advocates who made that happen. Do we have to be specific? Maybe change the wording a bit to address that we are advocates and supporters of changing ... stuff ... through local activists. > > Fedora is not here to force it's opinion on anyone else, but > > there is value in explaining about Fedora's philosophy of > > open source practicality. > > What is "open source practicality" ? Trying to find a compact way of saying: "Free and/or open source software with freely distributable firmware, no patent encumbrances, trying to use as much free systems but we move packets and store on the network with closed solutions." Another thing this means is, open source is the practical and pragmatic solution, here's why ... Too often choosing a non-open source solution is called "being pragmatic", but it's just not true -- in the medium and long term, closed solutions hurt more and more. > > By finding ways to grow the contributor and user base, we > > make ourselves more relevant and are better able to change > > the world. > > > > ==== Usability, Pragmatism ==== > > > > We choose software solutions that are most usable and do the > > best job of solving our problems, user's problems, and > > society's problems. > > > > We recognize that everything is not free and open source, > > and won't be until the world is different. In the interests > > of running a modern distribution, we have to rely upon > > proprietary firmware, network hardware and storage, and > > other resources. > > I don't follow. The section starts by talking about Open Source > *Software* and then includes *Hardware* in passing. Fedora has always > been about FREE SOFTWARE. Are you suggesting this be changed to include > FREE HARDWARE too? I'm saying that we are splitting hairs with our stance on redistributable firmware and running on hardware with non-free OSes (Cisco IOS, NetApp wafl-or-whatever). Paul used an analogy the other day, "We need to stop drawing the line in the sand, then the tide washes it away, and we have to draw it again somewhere else." Sometimes we need to set our line where we can defend it, not at the point of maximum stretch. This goes back up to the point of 'open source practicality' -- we may say we're for free before open source, but if we are doing open source at all we have chosen a line we can defend in more practical terms. When we have this line shored up right, we can move more easily to network OSes, storage OSes, BIOS and firmware and mobile phones oh my! > > Using open source is the best pragmatic solution, but may > > not always be an option. > > > > This doesn't make sense. "Pragmatic" defined along the lines of > "practical" does not make sense if the open source software solution you > have is horrible and doesn't allow you to achieve your objective in a > reasonable way. It sounds like you're wanting to say, > > "Using open source software is *always* practical. You are practical > because you are using an open source solution." which doesn't strike me > as an overly strong or compelling argument to someone unfamiliar with > open source or who who has found their existing open source solutions to > be far from mature and thus impractical. > > I am not being "practical" if it takes me 20 minutes to schedule a 30 > minute meeting because I've "chosen" to use an open source calendaring > "solution". > > Is there a better way to understand what you are advocating? Pragmatically, if we choose a "non-open but works good enough today" calendaring solution (to follow your example), we are screwing ourselves out of an unknown amount of time in the future for a projected savings right now. Every ounce of contribution back into the open source community is not worth the effort of making that ounce. But a larger percentage of that effort comes back as dividend than wrestling with a closed source solution. All your effort with a closed solution can get you is a good enough configuration for today's environment. Over the medium and long term, the closed solution is impractical and higher risk, making it the less pragmatic solution. That said, yes, one's definition of pragmatic and practical are contextual and highly influence the thinking around this filter. To a large degree, I am trying to take back the terminology from people who label open source solutions impractical and not pragmatic. Be aware, these are the same people who argue that "always open source" is a religious stance "not a pragmatic one." I think they are dead wrong, and that is why. :) Final point -- Fedora can set a very different context to practical and pragmatic because we don't have shareholders with an SEC-sized brickbat. Because our shareholders are in fact the contributors (in Fedora, upstream), we pay their dividend by choosing solutions that require us to contribute back to the project. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Sr. Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Sat Mar 22 04:03:20 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 21:03:20 -0700 Subject: the Fedora filters In-Reply-To: <1206157524.4438.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1205883759.13919.440.camel@calliope.phig.org> <1205939683.2855.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1206157133.29963.39.camel@calliope.phig.org> <1206157524.4438.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1206158600.29963.64.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Fri, 2008-03-21 at 23:45 -0400, Tom "spot" Callaway wrote: > On Fri, 2008-03-21 at 20:38 -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > > > I'm going to drag firmware and such in here; not because I'm arguing for > > them as a form of software. They are permitted in our distribution in > > ways that either are exceptions or orthogonal to the free filter and the > > open source filter. Or is the argument they are not even part of the > > equation because rule them to be "not software"? > > I really don't want to have the religious argument, so let me just say > that we treat firmware as a special exception to the rules. Right, and we want to find a way to show that these exceptions can work in the filtering. This is why the zeroeth filter is immutable (no exceptions), the others perhaps less so. > I'd have to draw a flow chart to explain it, and email is a very poor > medium for this. Firmware isn't the only exception, some specific > content is also handled under less stringent restrictions than software. I think we are looking for something that can be a filter/flow to refer to that shows how you manage good enough and exceptions, which doesn't embody every exception. However, having a page that explains our exceptions/hair splitting case-by-case would be useful. Pretty pictures might help there. :) - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Sr. Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From valent.turkovic at gmail.com Sat Mar 22 13:28:17 2008 From: valent.turkovic at gmail.com (Valent Turkovic) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2008 14:28:17 +0100 Subject: the Fedora filters In-Reply-To: <1205883759.13919.440.camel@calliope.phig.org> References: <1205883759.13919.440.camel@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <47E50971.3020104@gmail.com> Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > "all open source communities > share values and filters." This text is great in explaining few things to new people to Fedora Project so I hope this gets uploaded to Fedora Wiki page and linked to when needed. Cheers, Valent. From aoliva at redhat.com Sun Mar 23 07:27:57 2008 From: aoliva at redhat.com (Alexandre Oliva) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 04:27:57 -0300 Subject: Codeina and how to proceed In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440803171520pe224491p349e81a2c8fbd131@mail.gmail.com> (Luis Villa's message of "Mon\, 17 Mar 2008 18\:20\:15 -0400") References: <1205790545.25162.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2cb10c440803171520pe224491p349e81a2c8fbd131@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mar 17, 2008, "Luis Villa" wrote: > Either say the mp3 stuff is non-free But is it? Patents don't make Software non-Free, it's the use of the power granted by a patent to stop people from enjoying the freedoms to run, study, modify or distribute the software that makes the Software non-Free. Honest question: has anyone who actually ran or distributed mp3 decoders implemented in (otherwise-)Free Software ever been stopped from doing so in countries where the patent encumbrances of mp3 apply? Or have most just been scared of even trying? -- Alexandre Oliva http://www.lsd.ic.unicamp.br/~oliva/ FSF Latin America Board Member http://www.fsfla.org/ Red Hat Compiler Engineer aoliva@{redhat.com, gcc.gnu.org} Free Software Evangelist oliva@{lsd.ic.unicamp.br, gnu.org} From aoliva at redhat.com Sun Mar 23 07:30:38 2008 From: aoliva at redhat.com (Alexandre Oliva) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2008 04:30:38 -0300 Subject: Codeina and how to proceed In-Reply-To: <20080318220718.GA5383@domsch.com> (Matt Domsch's message of "Tue\, 18 Mar 2008 16\:07\:20 -0600") References: <1205790545.25162.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20080318195234.GA12669@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20080318220718.GA5383@domsch.com> Message-ID: On Mar 18, 2008, Matt Domsch wrote: > I'd really like to see our "education" [1] be able to describe the > pitfalls of software patents, as the relate to open source / free > software. It does this today. [...] > I'd like to be able to direct people in countries where software > patents are a challenge, to what they can do to stop this madness and extinguish software patents? Far more in line with the spirit of Fedora than sending people in the general direction of those who have fed the patent monsters for the sake of being at an advantageous position in offering the features to their customers on countries stupid enough to accept software patents. -- Alexandre Oliva http://www.lsd.ic.unicamp.br/~oliva/ FSF Latin America Board Member http://www.fsfla.org/ Red Hat Compiler Engineer aoliva@{redhat.com, gcc.gnu.org} Free Software Evangelist oliva@{lsd.ic.unicamp.br, gnu.org} From notting at redhat.com Mon Mar 24 17:06:17 2008 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 13:06:17 -0400 Subject: Codeina and how to proceed In-Reply-To: References: <1205790545.25162.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2cb10c440803171520pe224491p349e81a2c8fbd131@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080324170617.GA22319@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> > Honest question: has anyone who actually ran or distributed mp3 > decoders implemented in (otherwise-)Free Software ever been stopped > from doing so in countries where the patent encumbrances of mp3 apply? > Or have most just been scared of even trying? Does it really matter? There have been shutdowns due to patent licensing on MP3 in the past month - why poke the bear with something obvious. Bill From press at fedoraemea.org Mon Mar 24 19:58:21 2008 From: press at fedoraemea.org (JoergSimon) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 20:58:21 +0100 Subject: Meeting Minutes of Fedora EMEA NPO Meeting Message-ID: <200803242058.22211.press@fedoraemea.org> Hello Fellows, The Board meeting of the Fedora EMEA NPO - founded in February on FOSDEM08 - took place in Rheinfelden, there was much work to do and several bureaucratic duties to fulfill. I have the order and the pleasure to share the outcome of the "Fedora EMEA Board Meeting" with you. Cheers JoergSimon = Fedora EMEA Board Meeting Minutes = ?* Date(s): ? ?1. Sunday, March 16th 2008, 14:00 - 23:00 UTC ? ?1. Monday, March 17th 2008, 7:30 - 17:00 UTC ?* Location: Rheinfelden, Germany == Attendees == ?1. Gerold Kassube (President), ?1. Fabian Affolter (Vice-President), ?1. Jeroen van Meeuwen (Vice-President), ?1. Robert Scheck (Treasury) == Regrets == ?1. ... == Meeting Chair and Minutes Secretary == ?* Chair is Gerold Kassube ?* Minutes Secretary is Jeroen van Meeuwen == Agenda == The ?Meeting Topics? is a short list of items and topics that have come up on mailing lists, etc., the separate topic ?Meeting Topics? shows some more details. ?* Opening ?* Assigning meeting chair and minutes secretary ?* Assess Agenda ?* Minutes from previous meeting(s) ?* Meeting Topics ? ?* Bank Account ? ?* Foundation Accounting / Membership Registration Software ? ?* A Budget Plan ? ?* Web Page / Registration Form / Email Addresses ? ?* PO Box / Mailing Address ? ?* Factual Goals ? ?* Use of the Board Mailing List ? ?* What do members get from becoming a member? ? ?* Store / How to make money? / How to generate revenue? ? ?* Logo ? ?* Templates for OOo ? ?* Announcement on Membership Fees / ways to register / etc ?* After-talk, Evaluation ?* Propositions ?* Any Other Business ?* Next meeting ?* Closing == Meeting Topics == === Bank Account === ?* Need bank account for financial transactions ?* Optionally seek for ways to debit other accounts (credit card, Direct Debit?) ?* Ownership: Robert Scheck ?* Progress: - ?* Meeting Minutes: ? ?* Credit card acceptance (MasterCard/VISA) not for free; 99 EURO/year, 25 EURO set-up, .3% of transactions, 5 year contract. ? ?* Credit cards have booking periods (30-90 days) ? ?* Other ways of making international transactions easier would be things like PayPal (but not really PayPal) ? ?* Don't really need to accept credit-cards ? ?* Debiting directly is allowed, bank account is free for an NPO, registration and sign-up is a matter of submitting the form. ? ?* Possibly re-visit credit cards / paypal later ?* Action Items ? ?* Create bank account ? ?* Needs registration number ? ?* Gr?ndungsprotocol & Satzung ? ?* Gerold's signature and ID === Foundation Accounting and Membership Registration Software === ?* Ownership: Robert Scheck ?* Progress: - ?* Meeting Minutes: ? ?* Available software costs money, ranging from 10-100 EURO/month, or one-time fees. ? ?* FOSS Software is old, unmaintained, or buggy/crappy. We do not have any explicit requirements to administration / accounting. ? ?* For now, a fairly simple spreadsheet should do, but with more members you do need professional software to be able to keep track of mutations. ? ?* Professional software has the advantage of being able to have professional invoices and accounting as well. ? ?* (Suggestion) Buy software or keep a spread-sheet, and look into linking into FAS2, keeping the additional information downstream but using the available information from upstream. ? ?* Look into more sustainable software then professional / commercial / proprietary anyway. ?* Action Item: ? ?* Robert Scheck buys professional software judging from what the bank recommends. ? ?* Requirements: ? ? ?* Professional Membership Management [mandatory] ? ? ?* Accounting [mandatory] ? ? ?* Invoices / Bills [mandatory] ? ? ?* Donation Receipts [mandatory] ? ? ?* English version [optional] === Budget Plan === A budget plan to break down the actual spendings on events that are being sponsored, and for overall expenses. ?* Ownership: Gerold Kassube ?* Progress: - ?* Meeting Minutes: ? ?* Lots of money being spend on events, but little to no budget breaking down the actual spendings ? ?* Little insight on spendings other then the general amount of sponsoring. ?* Action Items: ? ?* Break down the budget for LinuxTag (Gerold) ? ?* Break down the budget for FOSDEM (Event Owner) ? ?* Try and get some insight on actual spendings other then sponsorships. === Web Page / Registration Form / Email Addresses === For general operations Fedora EMEA e.V. will need a website with the following requirements: ?* Ownership: Fabian Affolter ?* Progress: - ?* Meeting Minutes: ? ?* Website content: ? ? ?* A membership subscription form [mandatory] ? ? ? ?* Needs to be off-line as German law requires a real signature [mandatory] ? ? ? ?* Draft Proposed by Robert Scheck (Accepted with minor changes) ? ? ?* A public email address to contact us [mandatory] (Jeroen) ? ? ?* A web page that briefly explains who we are and what we do [mandatory] ? ? ?* Possibly a brief explanation as to why it is we do not have a full-blown website [optional] ? ? ?* For normal operations, a suggestion was made we create (personal) ... at fedoraemea.org email addresses. ?* Action Items: ? ?* Finalize Membership subscription form (Fabian) ? ? ?* Use draft from Robert, Remove Fax number, add FAS account, make some of the entries ?optional?, others mandatory ? ?* Create public contact email addresses (Jeroen) ? ? ?* board@, press@, contact@, info@ === PO Box / Mailing Address === This obviously applies to off-line ?snail? mail. Gerold suggested we could use his private address to being with. ?* Ownership: Gerold Kassube unless decided otherwise ?* Progress: Done ?* Meeting Minutes: ? ?* Can use Gerold's private address. ?* Action Items: ? ?* Using Gerold's private address. === Factual Goals === Rather then the goals set forth in the Statutes, what is in-scope for us right now, what is in-scope for us in the (near) future, and what is out-of-scope for us? ?* Things in-scope ? ?* Organizing/Attending events ? ?* swag for those events ? ?* hotel/travel expenses ? ?* ambassador initiatives in general (EventBox, etc) ?* Things maybe in-scope ? ?* Hosting stuff the Fedora Project can't, but Ambassadors want. ? ? ?* Localized spins? ? ? ?* Offer services such as e-mail, fora, wiki for local groups? ? ?* Getting an online store for selling swag and generating revenue in a way that doesn't get in the way with the Fedora Store SIG, possibly even facilitate what they need to get done by introducing resources they can't get, or seek some other form of cooperation. ?* Ownership: All ?* Progress: - ?* Meeting Minutes: ? ?* Another factual goal is to train, educate users (not necessarily in class-rooms). Fedora Gatherings. ? ?* Like to see the a store in coorporation with the Store SIG be in-scope ?* Action Items: ? ?* Jerroen van Meeuwen coordinates with Fedora Store SIG === Use of the Board Mailing List === How should the board's list be used? ?* Ownership: Jeroen van Meeuwen ?* Progress: - ?* Meeting Minutes: ? ?* Use of the board mailing list is 1) private, 2) secret, 3) exposed/moved to the public when appropriate / necessary. What we say reflects upon the organization. ? ?* Ways to contact the board or the organization in general. ?* Action Items: ? ?* Create public mailing lists ? ? ?* Open for submission ? ? ?* Subscription approved by list administrator required ? ? ?* Same lists as in the "Web site / Email addresses" Meeting Topic ? ?* Ask Joerg Simon to become the contact person / spokesman for the organization ? ? ?* The board asked Joerg right-away and we're glad he accepted this position ? ? ? === What do members get from becoming a member? === ?* Ownership: All ?* Progress: - ?* Meeting Minutes: ? ?* Chosen a welcome present for new members ? ? ?* Order a few dozen for existing members, as well as new members ? ? ?* Goodie will not be sold in a store, one-off and exclusive for members ? ?* Members get to vote on what we do with money (or actually hold the board accountable) ? ? ?* ?What do you think should happen for Fedora?? ? ? ?* ?What do you need to get done for Fedora?? ? ?* Sending releases to members at General Availability is not sustainable (time-constraints, last-minute changes and release date slips) ? ?* Re-Spins is not viable either (burden on Fedora Unity, no time-based releases there, too much uncertainties to start doing time-based releases) ? ?* Of items we can sell / distribute, balance item's costs and value ? ? ?* A membership card that can also be used as a badge ? ?* Any revenue right now goes into producing new swag ? ?* Cooperation / Co-existence Other Non-Profit Organizations and Fedora Project itself ? ? ?* Model for spreading revenue, assistance from and to other NPOs, examples; ? ? ? ?* Fedora France ? ? ? ?* Fedora Unity (US) ?* Action Items: ? ?* Get a quote on mass-production of membercards with a one-off print on them (name, number) ? ?* (Again) Contact Fedora Store SIG and coordinate with them === Logo === Question: Does Fedora EMEA need a (separate) logo? Suggestions: ?1. No logo at all ?1. Yes ?1. Upstream (Artwork team) ?1. Upstream (no separate logo, use upstream's logo) ?* Ownership: All ?* Progress: Done ?* Meeting Minutes: ? ?* Motion: If any, use upstream logo, unmodified ? ?* Motion unanimously accepted ?* Action Items: ? ?* None === Templates for OOo === Creating templates for OpenOffice.org programs to use in official letters (to members), etc. ?* Ownership: Robert Scheck & Fabian Affolter ?* Progress: - ?* Meeting Minutes: ? ?* Put the templates upstream first (Fedora Project wiki), then pull then downstream and add Fedora EMEA specific stuff (if needed) ?* Action Items: ? ?* Robert Scheck & Fabian Affolter will look into creating templates. Letter heads. Presentation Templates. === Announcement on Membership Fees / ways to register / etc === Where do announcements get send? Where do we put them online? Different Languages? ?* Ownership: Joerg Simon ?* Progress: - ?* Meeting Minutes: ? ?* Suggestions to distribute (amongst others?): ? ? ?* fedora-advisory-board ? ? ?* fedora-ambassadors-list ? ? ?* fedora-announce-list ? ? ?* fedora-users-list ? ? ?* Linux Magazine / LinuxTag organization (including other press) ?* Action Items: ? ?* Gerold and Joerg to prepare announcements From stickster at gmail.com Mon Mar 24 23:34:51 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 19:34:51 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Range Voting for steering commitee In-Reply-To: <6d4237680803241607v6ee6540auae4ac26e6fc220a7@mail.gmail.com> References: <6d4237680803241607v6ee6540auae4ac26e6fc220a7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1206401691.4114.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 01:07 +0200, Dimitris Glezos wrote: > Hey guys, > > this might interest you. ?Indeed it does. Forwarding also to f-a-b for its high interest value. Paul [...keep reading...] > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: CLAY S > Date: Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 5:30 AM > Subject: Range Voting for steering commitee > To: dimitris at glezos.com > > > Hello, > > My name is Clay Shentrup, and I work with the Center for Range Voting. > (http://rangevoting.org/) > > I just read about a possible use of Range Voting for steering > committee elections. > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N/SteeringCommittee/Elections > > I think this is great news for voting reform community. However I see > that the election is for "seats", not just a single seat, and I would > therefore suggest Reweighted Range Voting, because it inherently gives > ideologically-proportional representation, which would seem to lead to > better more representative leadership. That is, rather than getting 7 > widely liked "centrists", you'd get 7 people who whose appeal is more > representative of segments of the community doing the voting. This > inherently leads to more debate and discussion, and in theory at > least, better ultimate decisions. > > In addition, our organization would love the opportunity to evaluate > anonymized ballot data, to look for voting trends that can tell us > more about the prevalence of e.g. strategic voting using this voting > method. > > Best regards, > Clay > > -- > clay shentrup > san francisco, ca > phone: 206.801.0484 > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Tue Mar 25 00:52:46 2008 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (seth vidal) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 20:52:46 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Range Voting for steering commitee In-Reply-To: <1206401691.4114.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <6d4237680803241607v6ee6540auae4ac26e6fc220a7@mail.gmail.com> <1206401691.4114.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1206406366.31693.51.camel@cutter> On Mon, 2008-03-24 at 19:34 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > That is, rather than getting 7 > > widely liked "centrists", you'd get 7 people who whose appeal is more > > representative of segments of the community doing the voting. This > > inherently leads to more debate and discussion, and in theory at > > least, better ultimate decisions. I think the above quote is hilarious. You might get better ultimate decisions, or you might get more balkanization and more people walking away in a huff. Which we have MORE than enough of already. I think I'd be reasonably happy with 7 widely liked centrists. -sv From stickster at gmail.com Tue Mar 25 01:50:06 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 21:50:06 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Range Voting for steering commitee In-Reply-To: <1206406366.31693.51.camel@cutter> References: <6d4237680803241607v6ee6540auae4ac26e6fc220a7@mail.gmail.com> <1206401691.4114.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1206406366.31693.51.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1206409806.10863.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2008-03-24 at 20:52 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > On Mon, 2008-03-24 at 19:34 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > > That is, rather than getting 7 > > > widely liked "centrists", you'd get 7 people who whose appeal is more > > > representative of segments of the community doing the voting. This > > > inherently leads to more debate and discussion, and in theory at > > > least, better ultimate decisions. > > I think the above quote is hilarious. > > You might get better ultimate decisions, or you might get more > balkanization and more people walking away in a huff. Which we have MORE > than enough of already. I think I'd be reasonably happy with 7 widely > liked centrists. /me walks away in a huff. ;-D -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From aoliva at redhat.com Tue Mar 25 05:36:56 2008 From: aoliva at redhat.com (Alexandre Oliva) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 02:36:56 -0300 Subject: Codeina and how to proceed In-Reply-To: <20080324170617.GA22319@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> (Bill Nottingham's message of "Mon\, 24 Mar 2008 13\:06\:17 -0400") References: <1205790545.25162.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2cb10c440803171520pe224491p349e81a2c8fbd131@mail.gmail.com> <20080324170617.GA22319@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Mar 24, 2008, Bill Nottingham wrote: >> Honest question: has anyone who actually ran or distributed mp3 >> decoders implemented in (otherwise-)Free Software ever been stopped >> from doing so in countries where the patent encumbrances of mp3 apply? >> Or have most just been scared of even trying? > Does it really matter? There have been shutdowns due to patent licensing > on MP3 in the past month - why poke the bear with something obvious. Software-only or hardware? Encoders or decoders? MP3 patent holders used to distinguish between these cases. -- Alexandre Oliva http://www.lsd.ic.unicamp.br/~oliva/ FSF Latin America Board Member http://www.fsfla.org/ Red Hat Compiler Engineer aoliva@{redhat.com, gcc.gnu.org} Free Software Evangelist oliva@{lsd.ic.unicamp.br, gnu.org} From stickster at gmail.com Tue Mar 25 11:26:54 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 07:26:54 -0400 Subject: Codeina and how to proceed In-Reply-To: References: <1205790545.25162.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2cb10c440803171520pe224491p349e81a2c8fbd131@mail.gmail.com> <20080324170617.GA22319@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1206444414.16498.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 02:36 -0300, Alexandre Oliva wrote: > On Mar 24, 2008, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > >> Honest question: has anyone who actually ran or distributed mp3 > >> decoders implemented in (otherwise-)Free Software ever been stopped > >> from doing so in countries where the patent encumbrances of mp3 apply? > >> Or have most just been scared of even trying? > > > Does it really matter? There have been shutdowns due to patent licensing > > on MP3 in the past month - why poke the bear with something obvious. > > Software-only or hardware? Encoders or decoders? > > MP3 patent holders used to distinguish between these cases. FWIW, they were hardware, at CeBIT: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03/07/patent_crackdown_at_cebit/ -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jkeating at redhat.com Tue Mar 25 11:30:16 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 07:30:16 -0400 Subject: Codeina and how to proceed In-Reply-To: <1206444414.16498.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1205790545.25162.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2cb10c440803171520pe224491p349e81a2c8fbd131@mail.gmail.com> <20080324170617.GA22319@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1206444414.16498.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1206444616.3595.38.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 07:26 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > Software-only or hardware? Encoders or decoders? > > > > MP3 patent holders used to distinguish between these cases. > > FWIW, they were hardware, at CeBIT: > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03/07/patent_crackdown_at_cebit/ Which, if you sell a PC pre-loaded with Fedora, that then becomes hardware... -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- All my bits are free, are yours? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From notting at redhat.com Tue Mar 25 13:56:50 2008 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 09:56:50 -0400 Subject: Codeina and how to proceed In-Reply-To: References: <1205790545.25162.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2cb10c440803171520pe224491p349e81a2c8fbd131@mail.gmail.com> <20080324170617.GA22319@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20080325135650.GA17483@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Alexandre Oliva (aoliva at redhat.com) said: > >> Honest question: has anyone who actually ran or distributed mp3 > >> decoders implemented in (otherwise-)Free Software ever been stopped > >> from doing so in countries where the patent encumbrances of mp3 apply? > >> Or have most just been scared of even trying? > > > Does it really matter? There have been shutdowns due to patent licensing > > on MP3 in the past month - why poke the bear with something obvious. > > Software-only or hardware? Encoders or decoders? > > MP3 patent holders used to distinguish between these cases. And? Fedora needs to be freely re-distributable for *any* use. Including building your own hardware player using it. Bill From notting at redhat.com Tue Mar 25 18:57:52 2008 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 14:57:52 -0400 Subject: Meeting Minutes of Fedora EMEA NPO Meeting In-Reply-To: <200803242058.22211.press@fedoraemea.org> References: <200803242058.22211.press@fedoraemea.org> Message-ID: <20080325185752.GA6662@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> JoergSimon (press at fedoraemea.org) said: > === Foundation Accounting and Membership Registration Software === > > ?* Ownership: Robert Scheck > ?* Progress: - > ?* Meeting Minutes: > ? ?* Available software costs money, ranging from 10-100 EURO/month, or > one-time fees. > ? ?* FOSS Software is old, unmaintained, or buggy/crappy. We do not have any > explicit requirements to administration / accounting. > ? ?* For now, a fairly simple spreadsheet should do, but with more members > you do need professional software to be able to keep track of mutations. > ? ?* Professional software has the advantage of being able to have > professional invoices and accounting as well. > ? ?* (Suggestion) Buy software or keep a spread-sheet, and look into linking > into FAS2, keeping the additional information downstream but using the > available information from upstream. > ? ?* Look into more sustainable software then professional / commercial / > proprietary anyway. > ?* Action Item: > ? ?* Robert Scheck buys professional software judging from what the bank > recommends. > ? ?* Requirements: > ? ? ?* Professional Membership Management [mandatory] > ? ? ?* Accounting [mandatory] > ? ? ?* Invoices / Bills [mandatory] > ? ? ?* Donation Receipts [mandatory] > ? ? ?* English version [optional] This seems odd. Max, for example, has been doing budgets and placing them on the wiki without having to resort to additional software. How many of the various open source packages (GnuCash, sql-ledger, SugarCRM, etc.) have you investigated? Bill From gerold at lugd.org Tue Mar 25 20:21:38 2008 From: gerold at lugd.org (Gerold Kassube) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 21:21:38 +0100 Subject: Meeting Minutes of Fedora EMEA NPO Meeting In-Reply-To: <20080325185752.GA6662@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <200803242058.22211.press@fedoraemea.org> <20080325185752.GA6662@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1206476498.2710.7.camel@F8NB.homenet.local> Bill, it's a pleasure for us, seeing you reading our meeting minutes and responding; that's the feedback we want, that's the feedback we need for doing our job well ... Maybe it looks curious that some issues seems to be done twice or done more times but please belive me/us that we try to look upstream with all things we like to do. By now, we are a "association" or a "company" call it whatever you want and fortunately and also unfortunatly we have to cover legal things, law etc. and most of theses things are discussed at our first Board meeting and were topic of the agenda. If you show us a software with which we can handle all our issues like membershio administration, invoicing, balance reports etc. which cover also additional German Law, we'll be glad to have your input! Robert is looking for more than a month for the things we need to get all issues clearly covered ... As written, feel free if you have a solution, tell us! Friendly yours Gerold Am Dienstag, den 25.03.2008, 14:57 -0400 schrieb Bill Nottingham: > JoergSimon (press at fedoraemea.org) said: > > === Foundation Accounting and Membership Registration Software === > > > > * Ownership: Robert Scheck > > * Progress: - > > * Meeting Minutes: > > * Available software costs money, ranging from 10-100 EURO/month, or > > one-time fees. > > * FOSS Software is old, unmaintained, or buggy/crappy. We do not have any > > explicit requirements to administration / accounting. > > * For now, a fairly simple spreadsheet should do, but with more members > > you do need professional software to be able to keep track of mutations. > > * Professional software has the advantage of being able to have > > professional invoices and accounting as well. > > * (Suggestion) Buy software or keep a spread-sheet, and look into linking > > into FAS2, keeping the additional information downstream but using the > > available information from upstream. > > * Look into more sustainable software then professional / commercial / > > proprietary anyway. > > * Action Item: > > * Robert Scheck buys professional software judging from what the bank > > recommends. > > * Requirements: > > * Professional Membership Management [mandatory] > > * Accounting [mandatory] > > * Invoices / Bills [mandatory] > > * Donation Receipts [mandatory] > > * English version [optional] > > This seems odd. Max, for example, has been doing budgets and placing them on the > wiki without having to resort to additional software. How many of the various > open source packages (GnuCash, sql-ledger, SugarCRM, etc.) have you investigated? > > Bill > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board > -- Gerold Kassube -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil URL: From notting at redhat.com Tue Mar 25 20:30:25 2008 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 16:30:25 -0400 Subject: Meeting Minutes of Fedora EMEA NPO Meeting In-Reply-To: <1206476498.2710.7.camel@F8NB.homenet.local> References: <200803242058.22211.press@fedoraemea.org> <20080325185752.GA6662@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1206476498.2710.7.camel@F8NB.homenet.local> Message-ID: <20080325203025.GA11806@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Gerold Kassube (gerold at lugd.org) said: > By now, we are a "association" or a "company" call it whatever you want > and fortunately and also unfortunatly we have to cover legal things, law > etc. and most of theses things are discussed at our first Board meeting > and were topic of the agenda. > > If you show us a software with which we can handle all our issues like > membershio administration, invoicing, balance reports etc. which cover > also additional German Law, we'll be glad to have your input! Robert is > looking for more than a month for the things we need to get all issues > clearly covered ... Obviously I'm unfamiliar with German law, but there *are* packages that handle invoicing, balancing, etc. And people say the American legal system is hostile to open source... Bill From gerold at lugd.org Tue Mar 25 20:58:16 2008 From: gerold at lugd.org (Gerold Kassube) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 21:58:16 +0100 Subject: Meeting Minutes of Fedora EMEA NPO Meeting In-Reply-To: <20080325203025.GA11806@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <200803242058.22211.press@fedoraemea.org> <20080325185752.GA6662@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1206476498.2710.7.camel@F8NB.homenet.local> <20080325203025.GA11806@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1206478696.2710.16.camel@F8NB.homenet.local> Hi Bill, again me :-) If there *are* packages and Suites, please show us. We haven't found at least one who will fit our needs :-( We are always looking for *ONE* solution; because we know and found several single solution; but not one, and we haven't the power to code our own at the moment ... Thanks gerold Am Dienstag, den 25.03.2008, 16:30 -0400 schrieb Bill Nottingham: > Gerold Kassube (gerold at lugd.org) said: > > By now, we are a "association" or a "company" call it whatever you want > > and fortunately and also unfortunatly we have to cover legal things, law > > etc. and most of theses things are discussed at our first Board meeting > > and were topic of the agenda. > > > > If you show us a software with which we can handle all our issues like > > membershio administration, invoicing, balance reports etc. which cover > > also additional German Law, we'll be glad to have your input! Robert is > > looking for more than a month for the things we need to get all issues > > clearly covered ... > > Obviously I'm unfamiliar with German law, but there *are* packages that > handle invoicing, balancing, etc. And people say the American > legal system is hostile to open source... > > Bill > -- Gerold Kassube -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil URL: From robert at fedoraproject.org Tue Mar 25 21:00:21 2008 From: robert at fedoraproject.org (Robert Scheck) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 22:00:21 +0100 Subject: Meeting Minutes of Fedora EMEA NPO Meeting In-Reply-To: <20080325203025.GA11806@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <200803242058.22211.press@fedoraemea.org> <20080325185752.GA6662@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1206476498.2710.7.camel@F8NB.homenet.local> <20080325203025.GA11806@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20080325210021.GA583@hurricane.linuxnetz.de> On Tue, 25 Mar 2008, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Obviously I'm unfamiliar with German law, but there *are* packages that > handle invoicing, balancing, etc. And people say the American > legal system is hostile to open source... Please be aware, that ERP/GnuCash etc. != NPO management software. Managing regular memberships or similar things is not the goal the software you have mentioned in your mails. A membership is a yearly fee, not a product. And if somebody has to add the "membership product" to all of the members yearly, it isn't IMHO the target audience - just to name an example. Greetings, Robert From notting at redhat.com Tue Mar 25 21:23:02 2008 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 17:23:02 -0400 Subject: Meeting Minutes of Fedora EMEA NPO Meeting In-Reply-To: <200803252217.14282.jsimon@fedoraproject.org> References: <200803242058.22211.press@fedoraemea.org> <20080325185752.GA6662@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <200803252217.14282.jsimon@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <20080325212302.GB13649@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> JoergSimon (jsimon at fedoraproject.org) said: > > This seems odd. Max, for example, has been doing budgets and placing them > > on the wiki without having to resort to additional software. How many of > > the various open source packages (GnuCash, sql-ledger, SugarCRM, etc.) have > > you investigated? > > Thanks Bill, yes it is odd, Robert(rsc) has done a lot reviewing - after all - > we will keep it simple stupid. > As example we have to store the Data as Backup for 10 years, and have to > provide useable access to them at any time for the government, and this is > just the start ... Good luck. As someone who was around for the Fedora Foundation, I understand the pain. :) Bill From jsimon at fedoraproject.org Tue Mar 25 21:16:46 2008 From: jsimon at fedoraproject.org (JoergSimon) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 22:16:46 +0100 Subject: Meeting Minutes of Fedora EMEA NPO Meeting In-Reply-To: <20080325185752.GA6662@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <200803242058.22211.press@fedoraemea.org> <20080325185752.GA6662@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <200803252217.14282.jsimon@fedoraproject.org> Am Dienstag, 25. M?rz 2008 19:57:52 schrieb Bill Nottingham: > This seems odd. Max, for example, has been doing budgets and placing them > on the wiki without having to resort to additional software. How many of > the various open source packages (GnuCash, sql-ledger, SugarCRM, etc.) have > you investigated? Thanks Bill, yes it is odd, Robert(rsc) has done a lot reviewing - after all - we will keep it simple stupid. As example we have to store the Data as Backup for 10 years, and have to provide useable access to them at any time for the government, and this is just the start ... cheers Joerg -- J?rg Simon jsimon at fedoraproject.org http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JoergSimon Key Fingerprint: 3691 0989 2DCA 58A2 8D1F 2CAC C823 558E 5B5B 5688 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From clay at brokenladder.com Wed Mar 26 06:48:37 2008 From: clay at brokenladder.com (CLAY S) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 23:48:37 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Range Voting for steering commitee Message-ID: > > On Mon, 2008-03-24 at 19:34 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > > That is, rather than getting 7 > > > widely liked "centrists", you'd get 7 people who whose appeal is more > > > representative of segments of the community doing the voting. This > > > inherently leads to more debate and discussion, and in theory at > > > least, better ultimate decisions. > > I think the above quote is hilarious. > > You might get better ultimate decisions, or you might get more > balkanization and more people walking away in a huff. Which we have MORE > than enough of already. I think I'd be reasonably happy with 7 widely > liked centrists. > > -sv > > that's a very valid point seth. we discuss this aspect of proportional representation in the pro's and con's section here: http://rangevoting.org/PropRep.html it may well be that the centrist approach is more productive for your situation. though i don't know that walking away in a huff is necessarily a huge fear. i'm a (highly opinionated) developer at a san francisco web site for a large corporation, and i often run into huge conflicts of opinion with my relatively old school technical lead and various co-workers. i'm barking about how cool ruby on rails is, while they are talking about java and xslt, and how lame the whole agile development paradigm is. yet we manage to learn a lot from our debates, and i think we often come up with better solutions than we would if we were more like-minded. there's always someone with a radically different perspective than yours, and that usually helps us find the strengths and weaknesses in our respective ideas. in any case, any kind of range voting is exciting to me. but i think it's interesting that you're choosing to make the scale based on the number of candidates. presumably that's so that, if you wanted to, you could give every candidate a different score, to indicate your full order of preference. some people do express to us that they might not like using e.g. a 0-5 scale, because there might be two candidates who would get a 70 and a 75 on a 0-100 scale, but that gets rounded down with 0-5, and so they have the same score. you might be interested to know that the haiku os team used range voting for their icon selection: http://rangevoting.org/HaikuIcon.html best, clay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mspevack at redhat.com Wed Mar 26 18:48:00 2008 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 14:48:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Meeting Minutes of Fedora EMEA NPO Meeting In-Reply-To: <20080325212302.GB13649@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <200803242058.22211.press@fedoraemea.org> <20080325185752.GA6662@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <200803252217.14282.jsimon@fedoraproject.org> <20080325212302.GB13649@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Mar 2008, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Good luck. As someone who was around for the Fedora Foundation, I > understand the pain. :) For anyone who cares, I still have the Official Fedora Foundation Seal on my desk, along with a book of blank checks that go to an empty bank account. Greg and I often emboss various items (like expense reports, dollar bills, ping pong paddles, foreheads) with the Official Fedora Foundation Seal and/or the Fedora Board Rubber Stamp. --Max From kwade at redhat.com Wed Mar 26 22:32:32 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 15:32:32 -0700 Subject: [Ambassadors] Re: Meeting Minutes of Fedora EMEA NPO Meeting In-Reply-To: <20080325210021.GA583@hurricane.linuxnetz.de> References: <200803242058.22211.press@fedoraemea.org> <20080325185752.GA6662@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1206476498.2710.7.camel@F8NB.homenet.local> <20080325203025.GA11806@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20080325210021.GA583@hurricane.linuxnetz.de> Message-ID: <1206570752.4531.229.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 22:00 +0100, Robert Scheck wrote: > On Tue, 25 Mar 2008, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > Obviously I'm unfamiliar with German law, but there *are* packages that > > handle invoicing, balancing, etc. And people say the American > > legal system is hostile to open source... > > Please be aware, that ERP/GnuCash etc. != NPO management software. Managing > regular memberships or similar things is not the goal the software you have > mentioned in your mails. > > A membership is a yearly fee, not a product. And if somebody has to add the > "membership product" to all of the members yearly, it isn't IMHO the target > audience - just to name an example. Understood that you've been looking for a while for a workable solution. However, this is the first that most of us have heard about the search, and already you have had some good advice[1]. It also comes out that you don't feel there is expertise or time in the EMEA NPO group to do any needed coding. Perhaps this is a problem that can be solved with help from the larger Fedora community? Before you decide you have to go with a closed-source solution, recommend that you take the problem to the greater Fedora community (via blog posts, mailing lists, IRC, etc.). cheers - Karsten [1] http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-marketing-list/2008-March/msg00206.html -- Karsten Wade, Sr. Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kanarip at kanarip.com Wed Mar 26 23:34:04 2008 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 00:34:04 +0100 Subject: [Ambassadors] Re: Meeting Minutes of Fedora EMEA NPO Meeting In-Reply-To: <1206570752.4531.229.camel@calliope.phig.org> References: <200803242058.22211.press@fedoraemea.org> <20080325185752.GA6662@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1206476498.2710.7.camel@F8NB.homenet.local> <20080325203025.GA11806@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20080325210021.GA583@hurricane.linuxnetz.de> <1206570752.4531.229.camel@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <47EADD6C.80105@kanarip.com> Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 22:00 +0100, Robert Scheck wrote: >> On Tue, 25 Mar 2008, Bill Nottingham wrote: >>> Obviously I'm unfamiliar with German law, but there *are* packages that >>> handle invoicing, balancing, etc. And people say the American >>> legal system is hostile to open source... >> Please be aware, that ERP/GnuCash etc. != NPO management software. Managing >> regular memberships or similar things is not the goal the software you have >> mentioned in your mails. >> >> A membership is a yearly fee, not a product. And if somebody has to add the >> "membership product" to all of the members yearly, it isn't IMHO the target >> audience - just to name an example. > > Understood that you've been looking for a while for a workable solution. Yes, we've scouted Google results, contacted some of the other parties in FOSS, and I've even requested my company to take this one up for a case-study and let new eployees/students, soon-to-be programmers, work on it. That's obviously merely scratching the surface but with the little amount of time that we had between the foundation meeting and the first board meeting (which included official registration), that's actually quite a lot of work in under 3 weeks with each of us having our own day-jobs. Needless to say though you're right; we should take this up within our community and see if anyone has anything we might be able to use. Thomas Canniot already suggested Galette which we'll certainly be looking in to; Others might pop up with a few alternatives and like you suggested, we may need to add some more exposure to our quest for FOSS NPO Accounting Software. We'll most likely do that, because we (or do I need to say "I") will simply not commit to non-FOSS software no matter how much pressure there is, but at this point we will need something (whether it be a spreadsheet or SAP-like POS), and we will need to do it right, right-away. I'd rather do it right with something temporary, then do it wrong with something soon-to-be-sustainable. Thanks for the suggestions[1] ;-) Kind regards, Jeroen van Meeuwen -kanarip [1] Recommended blog post ;-) http://blogs.fedoraunity.org/kanarip/looking-for-npo-accounting-software From bche at redhat.com Thu Mar 27 20:59:37 2008 From: bche at redhat.com (Bryan Che) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 16:59:37 -0400 Subject: naming discussion for Fedora community grid project (previously aka Fedora@Home) Message-ID: <47EC0AB9.70504@redhat.com> Hi, as a follow-up to my proposal to create a Fedora community grid project (http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2008-March/msg00022.html) and our discussion at fedora-advisory-board regarding naming (http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2008-March/msg00100.html), I asked John Adams and some of the creative people at Red Hat to help us brainstorm names for this project. They did a great job, and I've attached the output of their work. Note that these names are all just suggestions and starting points for conversation. Please provide input on names. I'll let the conversation go for a week and then put up a consensus vote on 4/4 as to what we will name this project. Thanks, Bryan -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: fedora home project naming.pdf Type: image/jpeg Size: 103663 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stickster at gmail.com Thu Mar 27 21:30:19 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 17:30:19 -0400 Subject: naming discussion for Fedora community grid project (previously aka Fedora@Home) In-Reply-To: <47EC0AB9.70504@redhat.com> References: <47EC0AB9.70504@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1206653419.4736.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2008-03-27 at 16:59 -0400, Bryan Che wrote: > Hi, as a follow-up to my proposal to create a Fedora community grid > project > (http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2008-March/msg00022.html) > and our discussion at fedora-advisory-board regarding naming > (http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2008-March/msg00100.html), > I asked John Adams and some of the creative people at Red Hat to help us > brainstorm names for this project. They did a great job, and I've > attached the output of their work. Note that these names are all just > suggestions and starting points for conversation. > > Please provide input on names. I'll let the conversation go for a week > and then put up a consensus vote on 4/4 as to what we will name this > project. "Turbine" and "Shepherd" both appeal to me immediately. Unfortunately, "Turbine" is a social gaming community company, so the latter may garner my vote for now. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ivazqueznet at gmail.com Fri Mar 28 00:51:22 2008 From: ivazqueznet at gmail.com (Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 20:51:22 -0400 Subject: naming discussion for Fedora community grid project (previously aka Fedora@Home) In-Reply-To: <47EC0AB9.70504@redhat.com> References: <47EC0AB9.70504@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1206665482.24545.13.camel@ignacio.lan> On Thu, 2008-03-27 at 16:59 -0400, Bryan Che wrote: > Please provide input on names. Why do I really, really like Sleepwalker... -- Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams PLEASE don't CC me; I'm already subscribed -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jwboyer at gmail.com Fri Mar 28 01:40:37 2008 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 20:40:37 -0500 Subject: naming discussion for Fedora community grid project (previously aka Fedora@Home) In-Reply-To: <47EC0AB9.70504@redhat.com> References: <47EC0AB9.70504@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1206668437.4160.22.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> On Thu, 2008-03-27 at 16:59 -0400, Bryan Che wrote: > Hi, as a follow-up to my proposal to create a Fedora community grid > project > (http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2008-March/msg00022.html) > and our discussion at fedora-advisory-board regarding naming > (http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2008-March/msg00100.html), > I asked John Adams and some of the creative people at Red Hat to help us > brainstorm names for this project. They did a great job, and I've > attached the output of their work. Note that these names are all just > suggestions and starting points for conversation. > > Please provide input on names. I'll let the conversation go for a week > and then put up a consensus vote on 4/4 as to what we will name this > project. I like sleepwalker. And anything with "cloud" in it makes me want to stab myself. josh From jeff at ocjtech.us Fri Mar 28 03:12:36 2008 From: jeff at ocjtech.us (Jeffrey Ollie) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 22:12:36 -0500 Subject: naming discussion for Fedora community grid project (previously aka Fedora@Home) In-Reply-To: <47EC0AB9.70504@redhat.com> References: <47EC0AB9.70504@redhat.com> Message-ID: <935ead450803272012l13152fbem6169e99b8252781b@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 3:59 PM, Bryan Che wrote: > > Please provide input on names. As nice as the PDF is in explaining the concepts, it's difficult to hit reply and insert inline comments on a PDF. I've cut and pasted the list of names here and included my comments: FEDORA DYNAMO FEDORA TURBINE PROJECT TURBINE FEDORA WAVE HUB FEDORA WINDFARM Don't care for any of these. FEDORA POWERFARM Fedora Powerfarm isn't too bad. HORSE HOLLOW Kind of a quirky name, but if we're going to name it after a wind farm, I'd rather use Altamont. The Altamont Pass Wind Farm is not very far from the Altamont Speedway where the infamous 1969 free concert organized by the Rolling Stones [1] was held. Going with Altamont gives us a little more pop culture cachet than Horse Hollow would. POTENTIAL ENERGY PROJECT FEDORA ENERGY CONVERTER FEDORA POWER CONVERTER Sounds too anti-Environmental. THE FEDORA DREAM PROJECT DREAMSCAPE Dreamscape is already in use in a number of other contexts, although not specifically in any open source project that I could find. REM CYCLE FEDORA NIGHTLIGHT / NIGHTLIFE FEDORA POWERNAP SLEEPWALKER FEDORA DELTA WAVES - Delta waves are the main characteristic of deep sleep SIESTA FEDORA SHEPHERD - Counting sheep? CATNAP SANDMAN SLEEPOVER or SLUMBER PARTY Except for "Fedora Delta Waves" I don't like the sleep theme. I don't think I'd vote specifically for "Fedora Delta Waves" but I'd be interested in seeing some expansion on that theme. FEDORA KARMA COMMUNITY FEDORA KARMIC COMMUNITY These remind me too much of "Karma Chameleon" , the 1980's song from The Culture Club[2]. FEDORA NIRVANA THE KARMIC CLOUD FEDORA KARMA Can't say I care much for the "karma" theme. INSTANT KARMA This is the name of a song by John Lennon, and given the title of section 3 I'd bet you all knew that. If John Lennon were alive today he probably wouldn't mind but I bet that the corporate types that control his intellectual property now would. FEDORA KARMA-PHALA Phala may be Sanskrit for "fruit" but it's just too similar to "phallus" and similar words. KISMET Already the name of an open source project[3] FEDORA BOOMERANG Boomerang is also already the name of an open source project[4] MANY HAPPY RETURNS A little too vague. FEDORA KARMIC DREAM KARMA CYCLE No, because of the "karma" theme. FEDORA COMMUNITY COMPUTING A little too "corporate" but not too bad. FEDORA GROUPTHINK Too "1984". Plus, the introductory sentence from the Wikipedia article on groupthink[5] doesn't leave me with warm fuzzies: Groupthink is a type of thought exhibited by group members who try to minimize conflict and reach consensus without critically testing, analyzing, and evaluating ideas. FEDORA HUDDLE Don't really care for this one either. FEDORA SWARM INTELLIGENCE FEDORA CROWD WISDOM FEDORA GROUP INTELLIGENCE These three seem very similar to Fedora Groupthink, and are bad for the same reason. FEDORA COINTELLIGENCE When I first read this name I thought that it was COIN-TELLIGENCE and not CO-INTELLIGENGE as I suspect was intended. So that leaves me with "Altamont", "Fedora Powerfarm", something related to "Fedora Delta Waves" or "Fedora Community Computing". Jeff [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altamont_Free_Concert [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma_Chameleon [3] http://www.kismetwireless.net/ [4] http://boomerang.sourceforge.net/ [5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink From fedora at leemhuis.info Fri Mar 28 11:28:38 2008 From: fedora at leemhuis.info (Thorsten Leemhuis) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 12:28:38 +0100 Subject: Coordinate different education spins/efforts? Message-ID: <47ECD666.4040807@leemhuis.info> Hi all! Disclaimer (1): I'm not really interested in any education spins/efforts; in fact I got tracked into this accidentally and now need to make the best out of it... The short version of this mail: Fedora afaics has multiple efforts in the education area. People afaics wanted to work together, but it for some reasons didn't work out (nobody afaics is a bad guy/group here and responsible for it; it afaics just happened that way without purpose, thus there is no need to blame/flame anyone). Thus I'm wondering if the Board, FESCo or the members on this list could mediate between the different groups and encourage them to work together instead of doing a lot of work twice. The longer version: We afaics we have two different efforts in the education area: * There is Warren, who afaics works a lot on the K12Linux stuff in the past few months; Quoting http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/K12Linux : "K12Linux is Fedora's spin for educational technology." Mailing list: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/k12linux-devel-list (freshly created a few weeks ago afaics) * There is the Fedora Education SIG; Quoting http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Education : "The project aims to optimize Fedora for use at universities and schools as well as for education usage by schoolers or students. [...]" The SIG has at least five members (according to the wiki) which was formed by Sebastian Dziallas ( http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SebastianDziallas ), who created a rough Education Spin ( http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SebastianDziallas/Education ) which he wants to get approved. Mailing list: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-education-list (old list that was re-used by the SIG) --- Disclaimer (2): I know Sebastian privately; he made a two or three weeks internship in the company I work for (unpaid internship; he had to do it for school). He used Fedora before, but afaics I made him interested in participating in Fedora (/me is a bad guy...). I let him find his way into the project mostly on it's own, but helped him a bit/mentored when he got into a dead end (which happened more than once and showed me yet again that it's IMHO way to hard to become a Fedora contributer; but that's a different topic) Sebastian (who is traveling right now) recently seemed a bit frustrated how things evolved and that made me write this mail. So back to the topic: --- Both K12Linux and the Edu-Sig have slightly different target audiences/goals afaics, but they are not that different and I suppose most users will not understand the difference between "K12Linux is Fedora's spin for educational technology." and "The project aims to optimize Fedora for use at universities and schools as well as for education usage by schoolers or students.". Thus I'm wondering if it really makes sense to let those two groups work in parallel, as that afaics leads to quite a bit of duplicated work and likely confusion among the users. That why I think someone needs to mediate and that's why I write this mail to FAB. Afaics (which really is necessary here, as I'm neither involved in either of the two groups) the best for Fedora would be something like this: * a CD spin with a Desktop Environment, the most common/important Edu apps and the different clients to connect to Servers used in education areas (K12Linux, RDP/Windows, VNC, X-Client, ...) * a DVD spin with a Desktop Environment, even more Edu apps, the different clients to connect to Servers (K12Linux, RDP/Windows, VNC, X-Client, ...) as well as a possibility to setup a K12Linux-Server with a few easy steps Warren, Sebastian, others that are interested in the EDU-sig (Rex, Axel?) or K12Linux: does that sound like a plan? Or is there a better way for Edu-Spins in Fedora (I suppose there is, thus the above proposal is more meant as a starting point for further discussion). Or does it really make sense to let the EDU-Sig and K12Linux work on different things for the education area? CU knurd From Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net Fri Mar 28 12:25:38 2008 From: Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net (Axel Thimm) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 14:25:38 +0200 Subject: Coordinate different education spins/efforts? In-Reply-To: <47ECD666.4040807@leemhuis.info> References: <47ECD666.4040807@leemhuis.info> Message-ID: <20080328122538.GA22015@puariko.nirvana> > Both K12Linux and the Edu-Sig have slightly different target > audiences/goals afaics, but they are not that different and I suppose > most users will not understand the difference between "K12Linux is > Fedora's spin for educational technology." and "The project aims to > optimize Fedora for use at universities and schools as well as for > education usage by schoolers or students.". The way I understand it is that K12Linux is a decendent from K12LTSP which was about integrating LTSP into Fedora. The current tag for K12Linux is "Using Linux For Your School Server". Furthermore the project describes itself more like an upstream project: "K12 Linux is really about education, not so much about a particular distro or package". OTOH the education sig is definitely Fedora specific and looks beyond server/client connectivity topics. I'm not sure that merging them would really benefit the two groups (that certainly do partly overlap). At least that's my (short) experience with the two projects. Note that the EDU sig is quite fresh and thus doesn't quite have a record of activities to back this up. -- Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kwade at redhat.com Fri Mar 28 17:16:22 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 10:16:22 -0700 Subject: naming discussion for Fedora community grid project (previously aka Fedora@Home) In-Reply-To: <935ead450803272012l13152fbem6169e99b8252781b@mail.gmail.com> References: <47EC0AB9.70504@redhat.com> <935ead450803272012l13152fbem6169e99b8252781b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1206724582.30372.144.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Thu, 2008-03-27 at 22:12 -0500, Jeffrey Ollie wrote: > FEDORA COINTELLIGENCE > > When I first read this name I thought that it was COIN-TELLIGENCE and > not CO-INTELLIGENGE as I suspect was intended. I shied away because of the history of COINTEL in this country, especially where it comes to freedom, and that's all I'll say on that subject. > So that leaves me with "Altamont", "Fedora Powerfarm", something > related to "Fedora Delta Waves" or "Fedora Community Computing". I liked "Powerfarm" in an initial pass. I also liked: Fedora Windfarm Fedora Powernap Fedora Sleepwalker The list also gave rise to a few new directions for me: Fedora Compute Village Fedora Re-Cycling - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Sr. Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From poelstra at redhat.com Fri Mar 28 19:36:40 2008 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 12:36:40 -0700 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2008-MAR-25 Message-ID: <47ED48C8.9000107@redhat.com> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/Meetings/2008-03-25 == Roll Call == Attendees: Paul Frields, Jef Spaleta, Steve Dickson, Seth Vidal, Karsten Wade, Bill Nottingham, Matt Domsch, Dennis Gilmore, John Poelstra, Chris Aillon Regrets: Bob McWirther == Followup to Previous Business == === fedoraproject.org mail (2008-01-29) === * Take steps to approach changes that were requested in the past * Could we create a better start and search page for Fedora mailing list? * ACTION: check back on status in one month * OWNER: Dennis Gilmore * '''FOLLOWUP 2008-02-26''' * Dennis has spoken with some people inside RHT IS * should have no issues making a fedora branded interface to Red Hats mailman instance and having a @fedoraproject.org alias for fedora lists * existing lists will stay where they are * could migrate all mailing lists to fedoraproject.org in time time if so desired * driving forces here is: 1. making everything run Fedora 1. break ties to RHT IS which does not make Fedora a priority * fedoraproject.org email addresses lost four days of email a week ago and RHT did nothing to try and remedy the problem * '''FOLLOWUP on 2008-03-25''' * No update at this time * OWNER: Dennis needs to sit down and work things out with Red Hat IS * Next followup on 2008-04-29 === Post-release updates of custom spins (2008-01-29) === * Should the board have to approve them? * We will hosts as many spins as we have space for * Need to determine the hosting requirements and limits * How long will spins stay around? * http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/RahulSundaram/SpinsProcess * ACTION: Jef to review Rahul's proposal and report back to board * OWNER: Jef Spaleta * '''FOLLOWUP on 2008-02-12''' * Jef is waiting for feedback from Jeremy Katz on release engineering's perspective * Reference: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ReleaseEngineering/Meetings/2008-feb-11 * People are still not clear on exactly what is required to create an official "Fedora Spin" * Need a clear list of guidelines of what a spin owner is responsible for and what they are required to test * Hoping a test will come from Jeremy Katz as part of feedback from release engineering * We are only talking about spins that use GA packages, thus testing for GA should have given us enough comfort that risk is minimized * We only need to be concerned with new combination of packages that a spin would present * ACTIONS & OWNERS: * Paul Frields--followup with Fedora Release Engineering and QA contingent to discuss testing requirements * Jef Spaleta to formulate specific guidelines for review prior to or at next board meeting (dependent on feedback from release engineering) * '''FOLLOWUP on 2008-02-19''' * Crux of issue right now is figuring out exactly what input release engineering is supposed to be giving * Jef will have a writeup to the board by next meeting * Paul will be at the Red Hat office in Westford, MA next week and can sit down and work out any of the remaining details with Jeremy, Jesse, Will, etc. * '''FOLLOWUP on 2008-02-26''' * releng has created http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JeremyKatz/SpinChecklist * Jef has input from Rahul and plans to start writing a draft * '''FOLLOWUP on 2008-03-04''' * Jef posting proposal to fedora-advisory-board-list: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2008-March/msg00004.html * '''FOLLOWUP on 2008-03-11''' * Jef posting updated proposal to fedora-advisory-board-list today and ongoing discussion will continue on fedora-advisory-board-list: * https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2008-March/msg00074.html * GOALS: 1. Solidify rest of the policy this week 1. Board to vote on proposal at next meeting * '''FOLLOWUP on 2008-03-18''' * Jef was unable to attend today--deferred to next meeting. * '''FOLLOWUP on 2008-03-25''' * Remaining issues to resolve before final written proposal: 1. Specifying what space (infrastructure storage) limits are 1. Need a policy decision around locally built spins from official kickstart files from Fedora CVS (which have trademark approval) 1. Need to resolve issue with how/where source RPMS will be provided == New Business == === Trademark Licensing === * Legal preparing an agreement for schwag producers * People that want to produce schwag can sign trademark licensing agreement * Control remains with Red Hat to review and enforce usage * OWNER: Paul Frields * ACTIONS: 1. Continuing to meet with Legal to review final draft 1. Work to smooth out issue of licensing trademark with custom spins === Fedora Accounts === * What are the procedures for disabling questionable Fedora accounts? * Continue discussion at next meeting === IRC Meeting Next Time === * Channels are already setup and ready go * Need moderator * Administrative process outlined here: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/IRC * OWNER: Paul Frields * ACTIONS: Check with Max Spevack to see if he will be the moderator again == Future Business == === Next Meeting === * Date: 2008-04-01 * Time: 14:00 EDT * Location: IRC * Public channel to ask questions: #fedora-board-public * Moderated channel for board answers: #fedora-board-meetings * Board to only join moderated channel so as to focus discussion there From jonstanley at gmail.com Fri Mar 28 20:11:07 2008 From: jonstanley at gmail.com (Jon Stanley) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 16:11:07 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2008-MAR-25 In-Reply-To: <47ED48C8.9000107@redhat.com> References: <47ED48C8.9000107@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 3:36 PM, John Poelstra wrote: > === Fedora Accounts === > * What are the procedures for disabling questionable Fedora accounts? > * Continue discussion at next meeting I guess another question that needs to be answered here is what constitutes a "questionable account"? From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Fri Mar 28 20:15:26 2008 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 16:15:26 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2008-MAR-25 In-Reply-To: References: <47ED48C8.9000107@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1206735326.28730.7.camel@cutter> On Fri, 2008-03-28 at 16:11 -0400, Jon Stanley wrote: > On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 3:36 PM, John Poelstra wrote: > > > === Fedora Accounts === > > * What are the procedures for disabling questionable Fedora accounts? > > * Continue discussion at next meeting > > I guess another question that needs to be answered here is what > constitutes a "questionable account"? > What was your username again? :) -sv From tcallawa at redhat.com Fri Mar 28 20:22:44 2008 From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom "spot" Callaway) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 16:22:44 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2008-MAR-25 In-Reply-To: References: <47ED48C8.9000107@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1206735764.3521.27.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2008-03-28 at 16:11 -0400, Jon Stanley wrote: > On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 3:36 PM, John Poelstra wrote: > > > === Fedora Accounts === > > * What are the procedures for disabling questionable Fedora accounts? > > * Continue discussion at next meeting > > I guess another question that needs to be answered here is what > constitutes a "questionable account"? I can answer that: * An account for which the name is obviously fake, and the person refuses to provide a real name (has never happened). * An account for an ex-Red Hat employee who has not signed the CLA, and refuses to do so (has never happened, to my knowledge) Those are the only cases I know of right now. ~spot From kwade at redhat.com Fri Mar 28 21:18:04 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 14:18:04 -0700 Subject: Coordinate different education spins/efforts? In-Reply-To: <20080328122538.GA22015@puariko.nirvana> References: <47ECD666.4040807@leemhuis.info> <20080328122538.GA22015@puariko.nirvana> Message-ID: <1206739084.30372.173.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Fri, 2008-03-28 at 14:25 +0200, Axel Thimm wrote: > > Both K12Linux and the Edu-Sig have slightly different target > > audiences/goals afaics, but they are not that different and I suppose > > most users will not understand the difference between "K12Linux is > > Fedora's spin for educational technology." and "The project aims to > > optimize Fedora for use at universities and schools as well as for > > education usage by schoolers or students.". > > The way I understand it is that K12Linux is a decendent from K12LTSP > which was about integrating LTSP into Fedora. The current tag for > K12Linux is "Using Linux For Your School Server". Furthermore the > project describes itself more like an upstream project: "K12 Linux is > really about education, not so much about a particular distro or > package". > > OTOH the education sig is definitely Fedora specific and looks beyond > server/client connectivity topics. I'm not sure that merging them > would really benefit the two groups (that certainly do partly overlap). This makes some sense. I'll take a stab at rolling a middle ground out of this ... What if the groups agreed to actively work on being connected to each other? As well as cleaning up the project pages so they interlock and don't appear to contradict. How to be connected? * Make f-education-l the place for discussing the meta-topic of Fedora in education. On-topic includes: various spins, OLPC branches, evangelizing K12LTSP + Fedora, etc. * Have the K12LTSP list focus on the technical details of making Fedora a first rate/first class distro for running K12LTSP on top of. Anything about general Fedora and education is off-topic and should go to the f-edu-l list. Then everyone on the K12LTSP list should subscribe to the f-edu-list, but the reverse is not needed. Work is done on that list to work out interlocked project, feature, and spin pages. Why this method benefits both parties: * Gives Ambassadors one, connected story to tell, which * Makes better connections at events where K12LTSP is present, and * We can start to look for other, greater connections (Fedora CC Education Spin, Fedora Blender Spin for Students, etc.) * Provides technical and social bits for different kinds of contributors to chew on - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Sr. Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Fri Mar 28 21:23:48 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 14:23:48 -0700 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2008-MAR-25 In-Reply-To: <1206735764.3521.27.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <47ED48C8.9000107@redhat.com> <1206735764.3521.27.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1206739428.30372.180.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Fri, 2008-03-28 at 16:22 -0400, Tom "spot" Callaway wrote: > On Fri, 2008-03-28 at 16:11 -0400, Jon Stanley wrote: > > On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 3:36 PM, John Poelstra wrote: > > > > > === Fedora Accounts === > > > * What are the procedures for disabling questionable Fedora accounts? > > > * Continue discussion at next meeting > > > > I guess another question that needs to be answered here is what > > constitutes a "questionable account"? > > I can answer that: > > * An account for which the name is obviously fake, and the person > refuses to provide a real name (has never happened). > * An account for an ex-Red Hat employee who has not signed the CLA, and > refuses to do so (has never happened, to my knowledge) > > Those are the only cases I know of right now. There's really the larger case of what to do when you have an account that is in violation of some kind. Not social violation, as ostracizing people on mailing lists is much more effective. But if someone acts on Fedora systems with malicious intent, or if someone _suspects_ that someone else is doing that. Who reports what to whom? Who has the authority to act? Who is accountable if mistakes are made to fix etc.? Another option is a compromised or suspected compromised account. Who do you report that to? Would also be good if we spelled out what we expect people to do if they feel their account is compromised or, e.g., a laptop gets stolen with sshkeys and client-side certs. All in the bucket of "Account Management and Policies". - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Sr. Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mspevack at redhat.com Fri Mar 28 21:36:52 2008 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 17:36:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2008-MAR-25 In-Reply-To: <47ED48C8.9000107@redhat.com> References: <47ED48C8.9000107@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Mar 2008, John Poelstra wrote: > === IRC Meeting Next Time === > * Channels are already setup and ready go > * Need moderator > * Administrative process outlined here: > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/IRC > * OWNER: Paul Frields > * ACTIONS: Check with Max Spevack to see if he will be the moderator again +1 From gerold at lugd.org Fri Mar 28 21:46:36 2008 From: gerold at lugd.org (Gerold Kassube) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 22:46:36 +0100 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2008-MAR-25 In-Reply-To: References: <47ED48C8.9000107@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1206740796.3463.3.camel@F8NB.homenet.local> Am Freitag, den 28.03.2008, 17:36 -0400 schrieb Max Spevack: > On Fri, 28 Mar 2008, John Poelstra wrote: > > > === IRC Meeting Next Time === > > * Channels are already setup and ready go > > * Need moderator > > * Administrative process outlined here: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/IRC > > * OWNER: Paul Frields > > * ACTIONS: Check with Max Spevack to see if he will be the moderator again > > +1 +1 for #fedora-meeting no doubt To be honest, BUT the moderator must also be able to use the mods and familiar with IRC and moderating a channel gerold -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil URL: From Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net Fri Mar 28 21:54:51 2008 From: Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net (Axel Thimm) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 23:54:51 +0200 Subject: naming discussion for Fedora community grid project (previously aka Fedora@Home) In-Reply-To: <1206724582.30372.144.camel@calliope.phig.org> References: <47EC0AB9.70504@redhat.com> <935ead450803272012l13152fbem6169e99b8252781b@mail.gmail.com> <1206724582.30372.144.camel@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <20080328215451.GA655@puariko.nirvana> On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 10:16:22AM -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > The list also gave rise to a few new directions for me: > > Fedora Compute Village How about a merger of community and computation like Fedora Compunity -- Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stickster at gmail.com Fri Mar 28 22:08:45 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 18:08:45 -0400 Subject: FUDCon Lodging Message-ID: <1206742125.897.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> As the co-organizers for the North American FUDCon F10, the illustrious Max Spevack and I are trying to get a handle on our true hotel needs for the event. To that end, I?ve made a couple changes to the FUDCon planning page so we can gather information on who needs lodging for the show: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FUDCon/FUDConF10#Attendees PLEASE visit that page and add your information to the table of attendees. We?re asking who?s attending the Summit as a customer so we can weigh the logistics of using ?shoulder dates?[1] at the Red Hat Summit-affiliated hotels to house our FUDCon attendees. There are a number of factors to consider, including but not limited to cost and convenience to the FUDCon location. We hope to have all hotel details and room blocks shortly. You can bank on more news the moment that happens. If you need to list your attendance as "tentative" or if you have special needs (or can offer lodging), please feel free to list that information as well. = = = = = [1] For people who don?t know, ?shoulder dates? are dates surrounding a booked event, for which the hotel guarantees rooms at the event rate. Because of the business being brought in by the Summit, the hotel will offer the much lower Summit rates for up to three nights around the conference for people who extend their stays. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sebastian at when.com Sun Mar 30 17:20:26 2008 From: sebastian at when.com (sebastian at when.com) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 13:20:26 -0400 Subject: Coordinate different education spins/efforts? In-Reply-To: <20080328122538.GA22015@puariko.nirvana> References: <47ECD666.4040807@leemhuis.info> <20080328122538.GA22015@puariko.nirvana> Message-ID: <8CA60A17AF25B35-AA0-176B@FWM-M28.sysops.aol.com> > The way I understand it is that K12Linux is a decendent from K12LTSP > which was about integrating LTSP into Fedora. The current tag for > K12Linux is "Using Linux For Your School Server". Furthermore the > project describes itself more like an upstream project: "K12 Linux is > really about education, not so much about a particular distro or > package". AFAIK, Warren is currently working on bringing the LTSP into Fedora. He owns a feature for Fedora 9 ( http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/K12Linux ), stating "Integration of LTSP5 to enable easy terminal server and thin client capability.". So it seems like they are getting more Fedora-orientated (former releases have also been Fedora-based). The K12LTSP project has been around for some time, while the SIG has been quite new. > OTOH the education sig is definitely Fedora specific and looks beyond > server/client connectivity topics. I'm not sure that merging them > would really benefit the two groups (that certainly do partly overlap). The Education SIG belongs directly to Fedora. But is a further cooperation between these two projects useful or not. It does not really makes sense, to produce a Fedora Education Spin ( http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SebastianDziallas/Education ) and then have another K12 Desktop spin ( http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/K12Linux ), since this would only confuse the users: We would have two different spins (and maybe a third one) with only a slightly different target. As a user, how could I know, which spin to chose? And in the end, these spins might almost look alike (but we would have done the work twice). Therefore, I think we should coordinate the whole thing a little bit more. So, "who is doing what?", and "which mailing list and which project belong to which task?". I think a further discussion would help here - it would not even be necessary to merge the two projects, but IMHO a clarification of the tasks would be very useful. But then, both projects would need to agree to collaborate - trying to stay the course without any talks would _not_ work then. Maybe Warren (and others) could comment on this. > At least that's my (short) experience with the two projects. Note that > the EDU sig is quite fresh and thus doesn't quite have a record of > activities to back this up. This might be correct, but I think it would be good to work out a rough plan how to work together, since otherwise it is very likely, that we would be doing the same work twice. Sebastian ________________________________________________________________________ Stand above the crowd! Get a free email address that expresses who you are at http://domains.aol.com From kwade at redhat.com Mon Mar 31 04:35:08 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 21:35:08 -0700 Subject: naming discussion for Fedora community grid project (previously aka Fedora@Home) In-Reply-To: <20080328215451.GA655@puariko.nirvana> References: <47EC0AB9.70504@redhat.com> <935ead450803272012l13152fbem6169e99b8252781b@mail.gmail.com> <1206724582.30372.144.camel@calliope.phig.org> <20080328215451.GA655@puariko.nirvana> Message-ID: <1206938108.30372.327.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Fri, 2008-03-28 at 23:54 +0200, Axel Thimm wrote: > On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 10:16:22AM -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > > The list also gave rise to a few new directions for me: > > > > Fedora Compute Village > > How about a merger of community and computation like > > Fedora Compunity Good direction, I like it, although is does ring in the ear a bit like 'impunity' to the ear. Unfortunately there seems to be existing usage that might be confusing. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Sr. Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Mon Mar 31 13:23:29 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 09:23:29 -0400 Subject: Spins proposals Message-ID: <1206969809.3801.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Jeff Spaleta has been kind enough to post his spin proposals on the wiki for easier reading and comment. The main proposal is at: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JefSpaleta/SpinReleaseProcessProposal There are supplemental addenda at: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JefSpaleta/SpinReleaseProcessAmendments https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JefSpaleta/CommunityHostedSpins -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kanarip at kanarip.com Mon Mar 31 15:03:18 2008 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 17:03:18 +0200 Subject: Spins proposals In-Reply-To: <1206969809.3801.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1206969809.3801.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <47F0FD36.9040907@kanarip.com> Paul W. Frields wrote: > Jeff Spaleta has been kind enough to post his spin proposals on the wiki > for easier reading and comment. The main proposal is at: > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JefSpaleta/SpinReleaseProcessProposal > > There are supplemental addenda at: > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JefSpaleta/SpinReleaseProcessAmendments > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JefSpaleta/CommunityHostedSpins > Is the installation media spins that Unity does to be captured with this process as well, or does this only apply to Live Spins (could that be clarified in the proposal)? Kind regards, Jeroen van Meeuwen -kanarip From jspaleta at gmail.com Mon Mar 31 16:57:46 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 08:57:46 -0800 Subject: Spins proposals In-Reply-To: <47F0FD36.9040907@kanarip.com> References: <1206969809.3801.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47F0FD36.9040907@kanarip.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910803310957h1055f380jcefd9ab42fdb6a09@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 7:03 AM, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > Is the installation media spins that Unity does to be captured with this > process as well, or does this only apply to Live Spins (could that be > clarified in the proposal)? > The intent was to leave the definition of 'spin' concept as broad as possible. I don't think there is anything in the base proposal which raises the bar higher for installation media spins than for live images. -jef -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kanarip at kanarip.com Mon Mar 31 19:37:11 2008 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 21:37:11 +0200 Subject: Spins proposals In-Reply-To: <604aa7910803310957h1055f380jcefd9ab42fdb6a09@mail.gmail.com> References: <1206969809.3801.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47F0FD36.9040907@kanarip.com> <604aa7910803310957h1055f380jcefd9ab42fdb6a09@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47F13D67.3040107@kanarip.com> Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > > On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 7:03 AM, Jeroen van Meeuwen > wrote: > > Is the installation media spins that Unity does to be captured with this > process as well, or does this only apply to Live Spins (could that be > clarified in the proposal)? > > > The intent was to leave the definition of 'spin' concept as broad as > possible. I don't think there is anything in the base proposal which > raises the bar higher for installation media spins than for live images. > Well, should Unity remain to be able to release Re-Spins the way they do then we'll maybe need an exemption to a couple of rules set forth in the proposal; On the Release Selection process: Spin concepts: - "can be proposed to Release Engineering for inclusion in the next Fedora release" Unity Re-Spins tend to not align with Fedora releases. - "are built as part of the next Fedora release cycle" Same here. On the role of Release Engineering: - "reviews each proposed spin for release and does the final spin image composing for all released spins and update spins as they appear in the torrent server and mirrors" The type of configuration used by the tools currently used by Release Engineering do not accept the kind of configuration a Re-Spin might need. Nor, judging from the comments on a proposal a long time ago, does upstream for those tools accept the type of configuration it might take to compose a Re-Spin with, given that -supposedly- it would not be reproducible. Hence, during the compose process manual intervention might be required. Insert here a reminder of the reproducibility argument used earlier. Other then the above if all it applies to is Installation and Live Spins to-be-released-by-the-Fedora-Project-proper, I fully agree with the proposal. I sure hope though, should this proposal be accepted, it won't be held against us all of a sudden. Kind regards, Jeroen van Meeuwen -kanarip From jspaleta at gmail.com Mon Mar 31 20:07:23 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 12:07:23 -0800 Subject: Spins proposals In-Reply-To: <47F13D67.3040107@kanarip.com> References: <1206969809.3801.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47F0FD36.9040907@kanarip.com> <604aa7910803310957h1055f380jcefd9ab42fdb6a09@mail.gmail.com> <47F13D67.3040107@kanarip.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910803311307q9b80fcew268da47340141e53@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 11:37 AM, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > Well, should Unity remain to be able to release Re-Spins the way they do > then we'll maybe need an exemption to a couple of rules set forth in the > proposal; > > On the Release Selection process: > > Spin concepts: > > - "can be proposed to Release Engineering for inclusion in the next > Fedora release" > > Unity Re-Spins tend to not align with Fedora releases. > Anything that is meant to be given official hosting space needs to run through a proposal process that is synced with the release schedule. Even if the purpose of the spin being proposed is such that it will not have images at release time, but will only have update images. Everything that will consume project hosting resources needs to be on the table at release time with space consumption estimates. Part of the purpose of the spin release process is to make sure we adequately match our space constraints for spins to the commitment we make for spins over the duration of each release. The type of configuration used by the tools currently used by Release > Engineering do not accept the kind of configuration a Re-Spin might > need. Nor, judging from the comments on a proposal a long time ago, does > upstream for those tools accept the type of configuration it might take > to compose a Re-Spin with, given that -supposedly- it would not be > reproducible. > In the scope of the proposal, for community images that can be hosted elsewhere, the community managed Kickstart Pool has no explicit requirements on syncing with the Fedora release process as controlled by RelEng. The Spin SIG is deliberately stood up as a community peer group for community spin concepts, even for items that will not pass RelEng technical review. Once there is a credible community Spin SIG and they create an initial best practices guidance.. we can start have a serious discussion about how that group can work together to produce images. Once we are able to provide shell access to a Fedora Infrastructure controlled compose host for composing signed images, the Spin SIG as a group will need to decide how they want to make use of that infrastructure to compose images with appropriate signatures. The resulting spins will have to be hosted elsewhere in the community, but will be linkable from spins.fp.org webspace controlled by the Spin SIG. And yes, people are working towards making this sort of compose host access available, but its not going to happen tomorrow. -jef -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stickster at gmail.com Mon Mar 31 20:24:00 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 16:24:00 -0400 Subject: Board public meeting, 2008-04-01 UTC 1800 Message-ID: <1206995040.3801.77.camel@localhost.localdomain> Apologies for the late notice: The Board is holding its monthly public meeting on Tuesday, 01 April 2008, at 1800 UTC on IRC Freenode. The public is invited to do the following: * Join #fedora-board-meeting to see the Board's conversation. This channel is read-only for non-Board members. * Join #fedora-board-public to discuss topics and post questions. This channel is read/write for everyone. We found that in the last meeting the Board members, by joining the #f-b-public channel, inadvertently drove some discussion away from the meeting logged in #f-b-meeting. This time around we will not join that channel, and rely entirely on our gracious moderator Max Spevack to direct questions to #f-b-meeting for us to answer. This routine should limit confusion and make sure our logs are useful to everyone. The Board has set aside the first meeting of each month as a public "town hall" style meeting. We are hoping to do an audio-based meeting at some point in the near future when resources allow. We look forward to seeing you at the meeting. Paul W. Frields Chairman, Fedora Project Board Fedora Project Leader -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kanarip at kanarip.com Mon Mar 31 20:30:38 2008 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 22:30:38 +0200 Subject: Spins proposals In-Reply-To: <604aa7910803311307q9b80fcew268da47340141e53@mail.gmail.com> References: <1206969809.3801.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47F0FD36.9040907@kanarip.com> <604aa7910803310957h1055f380jcefd9ab42fdb6a09@mail.gmail.com> <47F13D67.3040107@kanarip.com> <604aa7910803311307q9b80fcew268da47340141e53@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47F149EE.1050006@kanarip.com> Jeff Spaleta wrote: > Once there is a credible community Spin SIG > and they create an initial best practices guidance.. we can start have a > serious discussion about how that group can work together to produce > images. > Perfect, this is exactly what Fedora Unity has been doing for ages; I'm in! http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SpinSIG Kind regards, Jeroen van Meeuwen -kanarip From stickster at gmail.com Mon Mar 31 20:32:53 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 20:32:53 +0000 Subject: Board public meeting, 2008-04-01 UTC 1800 (ERRATUM) In-Reply-To: <1206995040.3801.77.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1206995040.3801.77.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1206995573.3801.87.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2008-03-31 at 16:24 -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > Apologies for the late notice: And for the erratum. The first topic in the meeting, on which the Board will take questions, is the spin policy. We will have a short discussion and then open up for questions on that topic. After that, maybe 15-20 minutes total -- we'll move on to an open floor for other questions. Thanks again and we look forward to seeing you there. Paul -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From clay at brokenladder.com Mon Mar 31 21:10:11 2008 From: clay at brokenladder.com (CLAY S) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 14:10:11 -0700 Subject: fedora-advisory-board Digest, Vol 24, Issue 41 In-Reply-To: <20080331203314.98DA16194B2@hormel.redhat.com> References: <20080331203314.98DA16194B2@hormel.redhat.com> Message-ID: Hello folks, I joined this list because of my passion for voting methods, but aside from the potential use of score voting ("range voting") in your process, these messages have little relevance for me. Therefore I will go ahead and unsubscribe. But I would enjoy the opportunity to talk to any interested individuals about this subject, should the discussion re-emerge. I can be reached at clay at electopia.org or clay at brokenladder.com Thanks for your time and hard work making the Linux desktop better. Regards, Clay Shentrup San Francisco, CA 206.801.0484 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jwboyer at gmail.com Mon Mar 31 21:32:15 2008 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 16:32:15 -0500 Subject: Spins proposals In-Reply-To: <604aa7910803311307q9b80fcew268da47340141e53@mail.gmail.com> References: <1206969809.3801.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47F0FD36.9040907@kanarip.com> <604aa7910803310957h1055f380jcefd9ab42fdb6a09@mail.gmail.com> <47F13D67.3040107@kanarip.com> <604aa7910803311307q9b80fcew268da47340141e53@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1206999135.12155.79.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> On Mon, 2008-03-31 at 12:07 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > Once we are able to provide shell access to a Fedora Infrastructure > controlled compose host for composing signed images, the Spin SIG as a > group will need to decide how they want to make use of that > infrastructure to compose images with appropriate signatures. The > resulting spins will have to be hosted elsewhere in the community, but > will be linkable from spins.fp.org webspace controlled by the Spin > SIG. And yes, people are working towards making this sort of compose > host access available, but its not going to happen tomorrow. Actually, this part could happen tomorrow to a degree. Infrastructure already provided two Xen guests to do composes on. There are some of us that have access to them. I used them to spin the XFCE spin. The hard part would be segregating it to allow spin owners to do the compose. Though if we can get the other details hammered out, I'm willing to be a button pusher until that happens. josh From jspaleta at gmail.com Mon Mar 31 22:02:53 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 14:02:53 -0800 Subject: Spins proposals In-Reply-To: <1206999135.12155.79.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> References: <1206969809.3801.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47F0FD36.9040907@kanarip.com> <604aa7910803310957h1055f380jcefd9ab42fdb6a09@mail.gmail.com> <47F13D67.3040107@kanarip.com> <604aa7910803311307q9b80fcew268da47340141e53@mail.gmail.com> <1206999135.12155.79.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: <604aa7910803311502y1a8cb62aife97987d53e80465@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 1:32 PM, Josh Boyer wrote: > Actually, this part could happen tomorrow to a degree. Infrastructure > already provided two Xen guests to do composes on. There are some of us > that have access to them. I used them to spin the XFCE spin. > Regardless of whether infrastructure can flip the switch on the hosting instance. Useful access is NOT going to happen tomorrow....because access to this hinges on there being best practices guidance being developed by a peer group. Let me be very clear. I plan to make sure the Board blocks on any more trademark approvals until there is a 'credible' Spin SIG in place with at least a draft of technical best practices inside our project umbrella. This proposal is a general framework for which the 'new' community peer group to live in relation to existing Fedora structures. This proposal is not the end of the discussion. Once we make room for the Spin SIG, it must self-organize and it must make a credible attempt to setup a transparent community driven technical review process that the Board can rely on. I'm not going to willingly hand over keys to community compose hosts to anyone before that happens. I don't care if members of RelEng volunteer to act as the button pushers or not. -jef -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmcgrath at redhat.com Mon Mar 31 22:36:20 2008 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 17:36:20 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Spins proposals In-Reply-To: <1206999135.12155.79.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> References: <1206969809.3801.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <47F0FD36.9040907@kanarip.com> <604aa7910803310957h1055f380jcefd9ab42fdb6a09@mail.gmail.com> <47F13D67.3040107@kanarip.com> <604aa7910803311307q9b80fcew268da47340141e53@mail.gmail.com> <1206999135.12155.79.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 31 Mar 2008, Josh Boyer wrote: > On Mon, 2008-03-31 at 12:07 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > > Once we are able to provide shell access to a Fedora Infrastructure > > controlled compose host for composing signed images, the Spin SIG as a > > group will need to decide how they want to make use of that > > infrastructure to compose images with appropriate signatures. The > > resulting spins will have to be hosted elsewhere in the community, but > > will be linkable from spins.fp.org webspace controlled by the Spin > > SIG. And yes, people are working towards making this sort of compose > > host access available, but its not going to happen tomorrow. > > Actually, this part could happen tomorrow to a degree. Infrastructure > already provided two Xen guests to do composes on. There are some of us > that have access to them. I used them to spin the XFCE spin. > /me notes we're not happy about it either[1]. Especially since no one has attempted to get a permanent solution working together yet. Yes, Mock + selinux blows. Someone needs to fix it though. What ever happened to wevisor? -Mike [1] Totally not directed at Josh. But Infrastructure created a bandaid in the interest of getting spins out the door and I feeling that people think that its a solution.... its not.