From poelstra at redhat.com Thu May 1 04:19:48 2008 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 21:19:48 -0700 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2008-04-29 Message-ID: <481944E4.9010200@redhat.com> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/Meetings/2008-04-29 == Roll Call == Attendees: Paul Frields, Bill Nottingham, Chris Aillon, Matt Domsch, Karsten Wade, Seth Vidal, John Poelstra, Jef Spaleta, Dennis Gilmore, Steve Dickson Regrets: Bob McWirther == Followup to Previous Business == === fedoraproject.org mail (2008-01-29) === * Take steps to approach changes that were requested in the past * Could we create a better start and search page for Fedora mailing list? * ACTION: check back on status in one month * OWNER: Dennis Gilmore * '''FOLLOWUP 2008-02-26''' * Dennis has spoken with some people inside RHT IS * should have no issues making a fedora branded interface to Red Hats mailman instance and having a @fedoraproject.org alias for fedora lists * existing lists will stay where they are * could migrate all mailing lists to fedoraproject.org in time time if so desired * driving forces here is: 1. making everything run Fedora 1. break ties to RHT IS which does not make Fedora a priority * fedoraproject.org email addresses lost four days of email a week ago and RHT did nothing to try and remedy the problem * '''FOLLOWUP on 2008-03-25''' * No update at this time * OWNER: Dennis needs to sit down and work things out with Red Hat IS * Next followup on 2008-04-29 * '''FOLLOWUP on 2008-04-29''' * No update at this time * Dennis will file a ticket with Red Hat IS to make sure things get attention and scheduled == Open Conversation == * Codeina * Formulate a high level approach as a Board before we go back to community with what is desired * Let the community come up with the technical solution. * One potential solution discussed so far in the community is tie-in with PackageKit * On tickler to revisit once F9 ships * Spins * No major updates * FUDCon would be a great next place to have in person conversations about where things are going == Next Meeting == * IRC on 2008-05-06 * A good time to do a recap on what was better or worse in the Fedora 9 compared to other release cycles * OWNER: Paul Frields * ACTION: Send out announcement From stickster at gmail.com Thu May 1 17:46:30 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 13:46:30 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board appointments, elections Message-ID: <1209663990.23714.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> ?Currently the Board has four community-elected seats and five appointed seats. As previously announced[1], starting with the elections following the release of Fedora 9, the Fedora Board will consist of five (5) community-elected seats and four (4) Red Hat-appointed seats. Red Hat may appoint employees or volunteers as desired, and the community may elect Red Hat employees (who are free to run for election) or volunteers. A Fedora Board election occurs within 30 days following each release of Fedora. Because there are an odd number of members (nine), the preferred method is to turn over[2] five seats after an odd-numbered release, and the remaining four seats after an even-numbered release. However, there's been some drift due to attrition. In this election, according to the schedule, we're supposed to turn over three appointed seats and four elected seats, or seven of our nine members! That's not very helpful from a continuity standpoint, so I'm proposing we do the following for Fedora 9: 1. Make the new elected seat a half-term seat for this release. I propose that seat be filled with the person receiving the fourth highest vote total in the general Board election. 2. Extend the term for one appointed seat. The Board will decide through discussion and consensus whose term will be extended. This correction results in the next election cycle having two appointed seats and two elected seats turning over, putting us back on a more predictable schedule. = = = [1] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-announce-list/2008-April/msg00011.html [2] Keep in mind "turn over" here does not mean forcibly ousting anyone, just making the seat available. Any Board member may be re-appointed or run for re-election. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Thu May 1 21:50:42 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 21:50:42 +0000 Subject: Board nominations Message-ID: <1209678642.23714.82.camel@localhost.localdomain> A few weeks after the release of Fedora 9, it will be once again time for Fedora Project Board elections[1]. This time around, as you may have heard[2], we have shifted our composition to five elected seats out of nine, instead of the previous four. Are you someone who thinks a lot about Fedora?s impact on society and the world? Do you love reading books about open standards and the free/remix culture? Do you want to work on big-picture issues as opposed to technical details? Has the time you?ve spent working in the Fedora Project brought you an appreciation for all the things our contributor community does? Then you might be just the sort of person who?s interested in a seat on the Board. The job of the Board is to advise and guide the Fedora Project, as laid out on its wiki page[3]. We try to make sure that Fedora is at all times living up to its mission of the advancement of free and open source software, and that we are doing so in an open, transparent way. Board membership carries with it a responsibility to the community to deal with thorny issues, to anticipate and serve the needs of our contributors, and to stay true to the principles on which the Project is founded. In return, you have unlimited cosmic power! That last part is not really true. In fact, the Board doesn?t really have resources of its own ? it?s the Board?s job to guide and advise, and convince other Fedora contributors of the right path to follow. It can be difficult work, but it?s rewarding to see the growth of Fedora worldwide as a reminder of how far we?ve come, and how far we?ve yet to go. If you are interested, you can simply nominate yourself by posting a message to the fedora-advisory-board list[4], and please cc: me as well. Election dates have not been set yet, but you can expect that announcement very shortly. = = = [1] http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2008-May/msg00001.html [2] http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2008-April/msg00083.html [3] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board [4] http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu May 1 22:13:57 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 14:13:57 -0800 Subject: Board nominations In-Reply-To: <1209678642.23714.82.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1209678642.23714.82.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <604aa7910805011513x490198bjdd4501aff5edee02@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 1:50 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > A few weeks after the release of Fedora 9, it will be once again time > for Fedora Project Board elections[1]. This time around, as you may have > heard[2], we have shifted our composition to five elected seats out of > nine, instead of the previous four. Have you communicated whose 'elected' seats are current up on the block? Or did i miss that in the last email about shuffling the deck chairs? -jef"Really wants to make a map and color countries red or blue depending on whether I've 'won' them in the upcoming election as a reason to test out the new patchwork coloring maps I figured out how to do"spaleta From dennis at ausil.us Fri May 2 00:57:28 2008 From: dennis at ausil.us (Dennis Gilmore) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 19:57:28 -0500 Subject: Board nominations In-Reply-To: <604aa7910805011513x490198bjdd4501aff5edee02@mail.gmail.com> References: <1209678642.23714.82.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910805011513x490198bjdd4501aff5edee02@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200805011957.33721.dennis@ausil.us> On Thursday 01 May 2008, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 1:50 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > A few weeks after the release of Fedora 9, it will be once again time > > for Fedora Project Board elections[1]. This time around, as you may have > > heard[2], we have shifted our composition to five elected seats out of > > nine, instead of the previous four. > > Have you communicated whose 'elected' seats are current up on the > block? Or did i miss that in the last email about shuffling the deck > chairs? > All elected seats except Matt Domsch's are up. he was elected after the release of Fedora 8 Dennis -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From caillon at redhat.com Fri May 2 01:13:45 2008 From: caillon at redhat.com (Christopher Aillon) Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 21:13:45 -0400 Subject: Board nominations In-Reply-To: <1209678642.23714.82.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1209678642.23714.82.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <481A6AC9.6020806@redhat.com> On 05/01/2008 05:50 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > If you are interested, you can simply nominate yourself by posting a > message to the fedora-advisory-board list[4], and please cc: me as well. I intend to run for re-election. \o/ From jwboyer at gmail.com Fri May 2 01:21:41 2008 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 20:21:41 -0500 Subject: Board nominations In-Reply-To: <1209678642.23714.82.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1209678642.23714.82.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1209691302.2946.146.camel@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> On Thu, 2008-05-01 at 21:50 +0000, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > If you are interested, you can simply nominate yourself by posting a > message to the fedora-advisory-board list[4], and please cc: me as well. I intend to run for election. And no, I don't have a campaign finance manager, TV commercials, or any superdelegates. I just want to aid in the direction and guidance of Fedora to the best of my abilities. josh From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri May 2 01:25:27 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 17:25:27 -0800 Subject: Board nominations In-Reply-To: <1209678642.23714.82.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1209678642.23714.82.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <604aa7910805011825g557096b9u349462540fb29097@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 1:50 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > If you are interested, you can simply nominate yourself by posting a > message to the fedora-advisory-board list[4], and please cc: me as well. I'm re-running. And in homage to the grand traditions of the US presidential elections I will be holding a a whistle stop campaign tour by train from Fairbanks to Anchorage sometime this summer. Okay maybe not Fairbanks to Anchorage, maybe it will just be the narrow gauge railroad that is in town and goes around the park... but no matter how I do it. I'll be on a train in a suit, with some sort of Fedora branded handiwork nearby within easy camera framing. -jef"thank god its summer time, or else I'd have to do a dog mushing campaign tour"spaleta From smooge at gmail.com Fri May 2 01:45:06 2008 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 19:45:06 -0600 Subject: Board nominations In-Reply-To: <604aa7910805011825g557096b9u349462540fb29097@mail.gmail.com> References: <1209678642.23714.82.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910805011825g557096b9u349462540fb29097@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <80d7e4090805011845u3ab19b7au32d21c3b9b931e46@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 7:25 PM, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 1:50 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > If you are interested, you can simply nominate yourself by posting a > > message to the fedora-advisory-board list[4], and please cc: me as well. > > I'm re-running. And in homage to the grand traditions of the US > presidential elections I will be holding a a whistle stop campaign I for one will not be running. I am going to campaign vigorously to be not elected. If elected, I will not serve, and if serving will not promise a free download in every browser... > tour by train from Fairbanks to Anchorage sometime this summer. Okay > maybe not Fairbanks to Anchorage, maybe it will just be the narrow > gauge railroad that is in town and goes around the park... but no > matter how I do it. I'll be on a train in a suit, with some sort of > Fedora branded handiwork nearby within easy camera framing. > I for one want to know why you are avoiding Barrow? And the poor people of Adak are once again not with any whistle stop. Sigh. > -jef"thank god its summer time, or else I'd have to do a dog mushing > campaign tour"spaleta > Isn't the train sinking in the now defrosted perma-frost? -- Stephen J Smoogen. -- CSIRT/Linux System Administrator How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice" From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Fri May 2 03:41:07 2008 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (seth vidal) Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 23:41:07 -0400 Subject: Board nominations In-Reply-To: <1209678642.23714.82.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1209678642.23714.82.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1209699667.3249.39.camel@cutter> On Thu, 2008-05-01 at 21:50 +0000, Paul W. Frields wrote: > If you are interested, you can simply nominate yourself by posting a > message to the fedora-advisory-board list[4], and please cc: me as well. > > Election dates have not been set yet, but you can expect that > announcement very shortly. > I intend to run for election. I'd also like to say that now is a good time to ask me to include obscure features in yum. :) -sv From dennis at ausil.us Fri May 2 04:41:55 2008 From: dennis at ausil.us (Dennis Gilmore) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 23:41:55 -0500 Subject: Board nominations In-Reply-To: <1209699667.3249.39.camel@cutter> References: <1209678642.23714.82.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1209699667.3249.39.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <200805012342.03971.dennis@ausil.us> On Thursday 01 May 2008, seth vidal wrote: > On Thu, 2008-05-01 at 21:50 +0000, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > If you are interested, you can simply nominate yourself by posting a > > message to the fedora-advisory-board list[4], and please cc: me as well. > > > > Election dates have not been set yet, but you can expect that > > announcement very shortly. > > I intend to run for election. > > I'd also like to say that now is a good time to ask me to include > obscure features in yum. :) I intend to run for re-election and will submit many new feature requests for yum. Time to come up with the list of the most obscure things to do. Dennis -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From notting at redhat.com Fri May 2 15:12:17 2008 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 11:12:17 -0400 Subject: Board nominations In-Reply-To: <200805012342.03971.dennis@ausil.us> References: <1209678642.23714.82.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1209699667.3249.39.camel@cutter> <200805012342.03971.dennis@ausil.us> Message-ID: <20080502151217.GB1962@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> > Time to come up with the list of the most obscure things to do. sudo yum make-me-a-sandwich Bill From mmcgrath at redhat.com Fri May 2 21:25:08 2008 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Fri, 2 May 2008 16:25:08 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Board nominations In-Reply-To: <80d7e4090805011845u3ab19b7au32d21c3b9b931e46@mail.gmail.com> References: <1209678642.23714.82.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910805011825g557096b9u349462540fb29097@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090805011845u3ab19b7au32d21c3b9b931e46@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 May 2008, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 7:25 PM, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > On Thu, May 1, 2008 at 1:50 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > > If you are interested, you can simply nominate yourself by posting a > > > message to the fedora-advisory-board list[4], and please cc: me as well. > > > > I'm re-running. And in homage to the grand traditions of the US > > presidential elections I will be holding a a whistle stop campaign > > I for one will not be running. I am going to campaign vigorously to be > not elected. If elected, I will not serve, and if serving will not > promise a free download in every browser... > We had a low turnout last time of runners actually and I worry that people think they aren't qualified enough to run... Anyone can run. I encourage those that have an interest in what Fedora is to run. So to those of you on this list (and others) why didn't you run last time, and what will be preventing you from running this time? -Curious Mike From tcallawa at redhat.com Fri May 2 21:41:05 2008 From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom "spot" Callaway) Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 17:41:05 -0400 Subject: Board nominations Message-ID: <1209764465.20913.173.camel@localhost.localdomain> I'm interested in running for Fedora Board election. :) ~spot From jonrob at fedoraproject.org Sat May 3 09:27:51 2008 From: jonrob at fedoraproject.org (Jonathan Roberts) Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 10:27:51 +0100 Subject: Board nominations In-Reply-To: References: <1209678642.23714.82.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910805011825g557096b9u349462540fb29097@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090805011845u3ab19b7au32d21c3b9b931e46@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <507738ef0805030227y3519a273kf19f6fc1a2c1d5f8@mail.gmail.com> > We had a low turnout last time of runners actually and I worry that people > think they aren't qualified enough to run... Anyone can run. I encourage > those that have an interest in what Fedora is to run. > > So to those of you on this list (and others) why didn't you run last time, > and what will be preventing you from running this time? For me, it's two things: firstly, the experience thing. I've never done anything like this before, and I'm sure there are plenty of others who have far more experience who can do a far better job for Fedora than I could! And actually, number two is similar, but I don't think I'd be confident that I could do a good enough job for Fedora on the board and I certainly wouldn't want to let people down. That said, I'm young and maybe in a few years I'll be putting myself forward to run :) Best wishes, Jon From Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net Sat May 3 10:31:59 2008 From: Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net (Axel Thimm) Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 13:31:59 +0300 Subject: Board nominations In-Reply-To: <20080502151217.GB1962@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1209678642.23714.82.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1209699667.3249.39.camel@cutter> <200805012342.03971.dennis@ausil.us> <20080502151217.GB1962@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20080503103159.GA24370@victor.nirvana> On Fri, May 02, 2008 at 11:12:17AM -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > Time to come up with the list of the most obscure things to do. > > sudo yum make-me-a-sandwich We should relax priviledges on the kitchen, otherwise non-root users will starve. -- Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stickster at gmail.com Sat May 3 15:09:13 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sat, 03 May 2008 11:09:13 -0400 Subject: Appointment timing Message-ID: <1209827353.16300.36.camel@localhost.localdomain> ?Both volunteer contributors and Red Hat employees can run for the upcoming Fedora Projct Board election, and Red Hat is free to appoint an employee or a volunteer contributor to a Board seat. (It's always up to an appointee whether to serve, of course.) According to the order of operations shown at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/SuccessionPlanning , one appointment is held back until after the elections. This allows the Board seats to be fairly balanced to be as representative of the whole Fedora Project as possible. It ensures that we have a good cross-section of the different skill groups in Fedora. For example, having the Board lean too heavily toward packagers, at the expense of developers or collateral content creators, would make the Board less effective at considering different sides of an issue. The Board will announce Red Hat's appointments around the week of May 19th. Nominations will not close, nor will voting begin, until well after the appointments are announced. If the entire process of appointments and elections were to result in a Board that is made up of a heavy majority of Red Hat employees, I would recommend that Red Hat balance this with an appointment of a community member. Nevertheless, I'd recommend that any interested community members run for the Board, regardless of their employment status or length of time working in the Fedora Project, and be confident about their record of getting things done. Being a Board member doesn't require any special qualifications -- other than tenacity and dedication, perhaps. :-) ?A healthy turnout of nominees *AND* voters is very important to this process! -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kanarip at kanarip.com Sun May 4 02:10:38 2008 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Sun, 04 May 2008 04:10:38 +0200 Subject: Spin SIG - Document Drafts Message-ID: <481D1B1E.3050608@kanarip.com> Hi there, it has taken me a while, but finally I've drafted up some documents for review by the Spin SIG, and other related parties such as the Release Engineering team, the current Spin maintainers, the (Advisory) Board, etc. What we needed are the following: 1) Community Spin Guidelines - DOs and DONTs for Spin concepts that are to be included in the Kickstart Pool. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Spins/CommunitySpinGuidelines 2) A Kickstart Pool - A collection of kickstarts that are to be distributed to the general public using a package, and that are to be used by Release Engineering as well as the Spin SIG to create, test and release spins from. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Spins/KickstartPool From what is in the livecd-tools package and source tree now, the Spin SIG has distilled a new set of kickstarts, located at http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=spin-kickstarts.git 3) A Spin Submission Process - Details on how you, or anyone else, can get a spin concept into the Kickstart Pool, and how to advance from there to get an approval stamp from the board, and how to get the Spin included in the Release Cycle should that be in the Spin's scope. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Spins/SpinSubmissionProcess 4) Spin Distribution - A little something about possible distribution methods for spins not included in the release, or spins targeted at only part of our community (localized spins, for example). Another document, regarding the access to the kickstart pool by the Spin SIG as well as others (Release Engineering, Spin maintainers), and it's branching and packaging policy will be drafted as soon as the above takes shape. Kind regards, Jeroen van Meeuwen -kanarip From mmcgrath at redhat.com Sun May 4 05:18:03 2008 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 00:18:03 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Spin SIG - Document Drafts In-Reply-To: <481D1B1E.3050608@kanarip.com> References: <481D1B1E.3050608@kanarip.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 May 2008, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > 3) A Spin Submission Process - Details on how you, or anyone else, can get a > spin concept into the Kickstart Pool, and how to advance from there to get an > approval stamp from the board, and how to get the Spin included in the Release > Cycle should that be in the Spin's scope. > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Spins/SpinSubmissionProcess > Anyone against me removing this page? http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/CustomSpins It was created just because nothing else existed at the time. If you want it back. Revert the delete :) -Mike From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon May 5 06:27:39 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 11:57:39 +0530 Subject: Board nominations In-Reply-To: <507738ef0805030227y3519a273kf19f6fc1a2c1d5f8@mail.gmail.com> References: <1209678642.23714.82.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910805011825g557096b9u349462540fb29097@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090805011845u3ab19b7au32d21c3b9b931e46@mail.gmail.com> <507738ef0805030227y3519a273kf19f6fc1a2c1d5f8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <481EA8DB.2030605@fedoraproject.org> Jonathan Roberts wrote: > For me, it's two things: firstly, the experience thing. I've never > done anything like this before, and I'm sure there are plenty of > others who have far more experience who can do a far better job for > Fedora than I could! > > And actually, number two is similar, but I don't think I'd be > confident that I could do a good enough job for Fedora on the board > and I certainly wouldn't want to let people down. > > That said, I'm young and maybe in a few years I'll be putting myself > forward to run :) I don't see why you couldn't nominate yourself now. The "worst" possible result is that you don't get enough votes to get selected. Big deal? Not for me. On the other end, if you do get elected you might learn a few things more which is always a good thing. Rahul From stickster at gmail.com Mon May 5 12:50:50 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 08:50:50 -0400 Subject: Board nominations In-Reply-To: <481EA8DB.2030605@fedoraproject.org> References: <1209678642.23714.82.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910805011825g557096b9u349462540fb29097@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090805011845u3ab19b7au32d21c3b9b931e46@mail.gmail.com> <507738ef0805030227y3519a273kf19f6fc1a2c1d5f8@mail.gmail.com> <481EA8DB.2030605@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1209991850.4711.63.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2008-05-05 at 11:57 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Jonathan Roberts wrote: > > > For me, it's two things: firstly, the experience thing. I've never > > done anything like this before, and I'm sure there are plenty of > > others who have far more experience who can do a far better job for > > Fedora than I could! > > > > And actually, number two is similar, but I don't think I'd be > > confident that I could do a good enough job for Fedora on the board > > and I certainly wouldn't want to let people down. > > > > That said, I'm young and maybe in a few years I'll be putting myself > > forward to run :) > > I don't see why you couldn't nominate yourself now. The "worst" possible > result is that you don't get enough votes to get selected. Big deal? Not > for me. On the other end, if you do get elected you might learn a few > things more which is always a good thing. Absolutely agreed. You could always campaign as the political outsider! ;-) -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jonrob at fedoraproject.org Mon May 5 13:31:39 2008 From: jonrob at fedoraproject.org (Jonathan Roberts) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 14:31:39 +0100 Subject: Board nominations In-Reply-To: <1209991850.4711.63.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1209678642.23714.82.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910805011825g557096b9u349462540fb29097@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090805011845u3ab19b7au32d21c3b9b931e46@mail.gmail.com> <507738ef0805030227y3519a273kf19f6fc1a2c1d5f8@mail.gmail.com> <481EA8DB.2030605@fedoraproject.org> <1209991850.4711.63.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <507738ef0805050631q16a99f8atb78fd96faadf512@mail.gmail.com> 2008/5/5 Paul W. Frields : > On Mon, 2008-05-05 at 11:57 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > Jonathan Roberts wrote: > > > > > For me, it's two things: firstly, the experience thing. I've never > > > done anything like this before, and I'm sure there are plenty of > > > others who have far more experience who can do a far better job for > > > Fedora than I could! > > > > > > And actually, number two is similar, but I don't think I'd be > > > confident that I could do a good enough job for Fedora on the board > > > and I certainly wouldn't want to let people down. > > > > > > That said, I'm young and maybe in a few years I'll be putting myself > > > forward to run :) > > > > I don't see why you couldn't nominate yourself now. The "worst" possible > > result is that you don't get enough votes to get selected. Big deal? Not > > for me. On the other end, if you do get elected you might learn a few > > things more which is always a good thing. > > Absolutely agreed. You could always campaign as the political > outsider! ;-) OK - count me in... :) Jon From kanarip at kanarip.com Mon May 5 20:16:50 2008 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 22:16:50 +0200 Subject: Fedora Unity releases Fedora 8 Updated Re-Spin Message-ID: <481F6B32.4070900@kanarip.com> The Fedora Unity Project is proud to announce the release of new ISO Re-Spins (DVD and CD Sets) of Fedora 8. These Re-Spin ISOs are based on the officially released Fedora 8 installation media and include all updates released as of May 1st, 2008. The ISO images are available for i386, x86_64 and PPC architectures via Jigdo and Torrent starting Monday, May 5th, 2008. Go to http://spins.fedoraunity.org/spins to get the bits! == CD Media Included == We have included CD Image sets for those in the Fedora community that do not have DVD drives or burners available. == Bugs solved in this Re-Spin == With this particular Re-Spin, fixes for the following bugs are included, like on our last Fedora 8 Re-Spin releases[1,2]: - #372011, "depsolve hang in F7 to F8 upgrade" We have incorporated the updates image made by Jeremy Katz (comment #11 in the bug), and we have verified that a full Fedora 7 installation upgrades to Fedora 8 without issues. - #367731, "anaconda fails on Via VPSD motherboard" On i586 hardware, the installation media wouldn't boot and thus renders itself unusable. We have backported the fix for this issue from anaconda development to the Fedora 8 stock anaconda, as anaconda is not updated during a release. - #369611, "yum upgrade with selinux-policy-strict installed fails" A dependency problem in selinux-policy-strict during upgrades is resolved in an updated selinux-policy-strict package, which is included in the Re-Spin - #404601, "anaconda crashes on 'cdrom' line in kickstart" Updates to pykickstart incorporated in the rebuilt installer resolve this issue. - #420281, Cannot find kickstart file during unattended installation The kickstart file name searched for after booting from CD or DVD with option "linux ks" and using a dhcp and nfs server is wrong. == Attention: Changes in this Re-Spin == Also, we would like to let you know that NetworkManager is now installed by default, and for people doing minimal installations; this service will need to be disabled before the network starts to work. == Thanks to == We would like to give a special thanks to the following for testing this Re-Spin: - Harley-D Dana Hoffman Jr - zcat Jason Farrell - iWolf Jeffrey Tadlock - vwbusguy- Scott Williams - baard1973 S.A. Hartsuiker - Southern_Gentleman Ben Williams - nirik Kevin Fenzi - kanarip Jeroen van Meeuwen == Testing Results == A full test matrix can be found at http://spins.fedoraunity.org/Members/Southern_Gentleman/20080501f8testmatrix A full list of bugs, packages and changelogs that have been updated in this Re-Spin can be reviewed on http://spins.fedoraunity.org/changelogs/20080501/ == Previous Re-Spin (20080331) will expire == Due to limited resources, this spin will immediately obsolete 20080331, which will be deleted from our mirrors in the next few days. Fedora Unity has taken up the Re-Spin task to provide the community with the chance to install Fedora with recent updates already included. These updates might otherwise comprise more than 1.33GiB of downloads for a full install. This is a community project, for and by the community. You can contribute to the community by joining our test process. Go to http://spins.fedoraunity.org/spins to get the bits! If you are interested in helping with the testing or mirroring efforts, please contact the Fedora Unity team. Contact information is available at http://fedoraunity.org/ or the #fedora-unity channel on the Freenode IRC Network (irc.freenode.net). To report bugs in the Re-Spins please use http://bugs.fedoraunity.org/ Kind regards, Jeroen van Meeuwen -kanarip -- [1] Re-Spin 20071218 https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-announce-list/2007-December/msg00008.html [2] Re-Spin 20080331 https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2008-April/msg00001.html From jspaleta at gmail.com Mon May 5 20:39:17 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 12:39:17 -0800 Subject: Spin SIG - Document Drafts In-Reply-To: <481D1B1E.3050608@kanarip.com> References: <481D1B1E.3050608@kanarip.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910805051339r2828eef1yb64eebede9c11930@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 6:10 PM, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > Hi there, > > it has taken me a while, but finally I've drafted up some documents for > review by the Spin SIG, and other related parties such as the Release > Engineering team, the current Spin maintainers, the (Advisory) Board, etc. So the drafts look fine to me from a procedure and policy standpoint. I understand that are some in-progress infrastructure things going on to support the community managed Kickstart Pool, but I'm not aware of any solid blockers. At some point Release Eng is going to need to draft up how the submission for a Fedora Release will be handled. I'm hoping to have at least the framework of that process in place by the time for F10's testing cycle, so people can be made aware of timelines. I expect the Release submission process to have explicit deadlines for submission and review that are somewhat linked to the testing timeline leading up to a release. -jef From jonstanley at gmail.com Tue May 6 03:29:39 2008 From: jonstanley at gmail.com (Jon Stanley) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 23:29:39 -0400 Subject: Board nominations In-Reply-To: <1209991850.4711.63.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1209678642.23714.82.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910805011825g557096b9u349462540fb29097@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090805011845u3ab19b7au32d21c3b9b931e46@mail.gmail.com> <507738ef0805030227y3519a273kf19f6fc1a2c1d5f8@mail.gmail.com> <481EA8DB.2030605@fedoraproject.org> <1209991850.4711.63.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 8:50 AM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > Absolutely agreed. You could always campaign as the political > outsider! ;-) Well, with what Paul said, I may as well announce my candidacy as well. I'm a relatively new contributor to Fedora, however, I am a long time user of Fedora (at least from FC2 onwards). I think that I can bring a lot to the table, in terms of past experience, both in Fedora and in th Real World(TM). Part of what I do for my job is to develop an IT transformation strategy for a wide variety of clients. This involves taking a detailed look at where you are today, and where you want to be. Then my job is to develop a strategy to get you from point A to point B, both at a tactical (how do I confront the challenges that I'm faced with today), as well as a strategic (what do I need to do in the long term to avoid being where I'm at today again?) level. This sounds an awful lot like what the mission of the Fedora Board is, and it's what I do daily and what I enjoy to do. Along the way, I face many thorny issues, sometimes due to people that are opposed to change, and sometimes, there are really deep technical issues that require a thorough understanding in order to resolve. Is it always a pleasure to do these things? Absolutely not. However, someone has to do them.=, and I think I do a fairly good job of balancing the needs of all parties involved in such a decision. Now onto my Fedora contributions. I successfully (I think, you be the judge) relaunched the bug triage process, and we have a number of community contributors in that space today, including myself. I'm very active in QA, and I now maintain a few packages as well (nothing major). I'm also a Fedora Ambassador, though I have not really done any formal events to date, though I give impromptu talks occasionally. I'm also going to lend an encouraging hand (though not play an "active" role, because I don't have a creative bone in my body for websites) in the relaunch of the websites group, drawing on my experience in reviving another fledgling group :). One of the most important issues that I would champion should I be elected is building community around "non-traditional" contributors to Fedora. This includes having subject-matter experts in the area of marketing (I really like how this is going), artwork, websites, documentation, bug triage, etc. There are a number of opportunities and needs within Fedora that cannot be served by the typical developer/sysadmin that we generally attract that are needing people to get involved. I think that the one of the reasons that we've been somewhat less than successful in this area is that the potential contributors would love to get involved, they simply don't that Fedora exists and needs these people, or they do, and are not sure where to start. This is a critical growth area for Fedora, in my opinion. Now that all the heavy "who am i and what are my qualifications" stuff is out of the way, the lighter side: Seth, you need to add "yum make-me-some-stlouis-bbq". I miss that here in NYC. The permissions on that shouldn't be relaxed, as significant damage can come from non-root users operating the grill. I will ride the New York City Subway in a suit tomorrow, but I'll just blend in with everyone else. I will not have Fedora handwork in easy camera framing range, however, my work laptop (which, in the interest of full disclosure, runs Windows due to corporate standards) has a Shadowman sticker covering the Dell logo. Does that count? Dennis, make Fedora work on my toaster as a secondary arch! I want a koji.toaster.fedoraproject.org up ASAP! :) Thanks for taking the time to lead this long mail :) -Jon From stickster at gmail.com Wed May 7 04:29:25 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul Frields) Date: Wed, 7 May 2008 00:29:25 -0400 Subject: Nomination information for Fedora Board Message-ID: Re: http://paul.frields.org/?p=990 Basically, if you're a nominee for the Fedora Project Board elections, you should fill out an entry on the wiki's nominations page: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/Elections/Nominations Tell us a little about yourself and why you think the community ought to cast votes for you! Please complete your entry by May 30th. Paul W. Frields Fedora Project Leader From bche at redhat.com Tue May 13 17:47:34 2008 From: bche at redhat.com (Bryan Che) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 13:47:34 -0400 Subject: new list of names for fedora grid project Message-ID: <4829D436.1000703@redhat.com> Hi, thanks to John Adams for generating an updated list of potential names for the Fedora grid project. John's recommendations, in order, are: Tier 1 1. Powernap 2. Nightlife 3. Awaken Tier 2 1. PowerFarm 2. Think Tank 3. Slumber Tier 3 1. Siesta 2. Underground 3. Swarm Attached is his full list. Please reply by Friday 5/16 with +1/0/-1 votes on names, and I'll take the updated candidates to legal review afterwards. Bryan -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: fedora home v2.pdf Type: image/jpeg Size: 19048 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gdk at redhat.com Tue May 13 18:45:29 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 14:45:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The Debian/Ubuntu SSL bug Message-ID: So I've been having a conversation with Mark Cox about the Debian/Ubuntu SSL bug. This is basically a horror story of what can go wrong when packagers don't maintain close relationships with upstream. I asked Mark, "what security policies do we have in place to keep this from happening in Fedora-land?" And his response was, "I don't know, what security policies do we have in place to keep this from happening in Fedora-land?" We know that RHEL is secure and stable, and we *do* have safeguards in place to prevent this from happening in RHEL-land. But a mistake like this in Fedora-land would be every bit as bad for the Red Hat and Fedora brands. Are there any steps we can take to protect ourselves from this kind of mistake -- in which a packager does something dumb to the package and no one notices it? --g -- Greg DeKoenigsberg Community Development Manager Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255 "To whomsoever much hath been given... ...from him much shall be asked" From rdieter at math.unl.edu Tue May 13 18:52:13 2008 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 13:52:13 -0500 Subject: The Debian/Ubuntu SSL bug In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4829E35D.9040805@math.unl.edu> Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > Are there any steps we can take to protect ourselves from this kind of > mistake -- in which a packager does something dumb to the package and no > one notices it? Aside from the already-in-place strong recommendations and policies wrt encouraging comaintainers and working closely with upstream projects, excellent question. :) -- Rex From davej at redhat.com Tue May 13 18:56:04 2008 From: davej at redhat.com (Dave Jones) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 14:56:04 -0400 Subject: The Debian/Ubuntu SSL bug In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080513185604.GA13857@redhat.com> On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 02:45:29PM -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > So I've been having a conversation with Mark Cox about the Debian/Ubuntu > SSL bug. This is basically a horror story of what can go wrong when > packagers don't maintain close relationships with upstream. I asked Mark, > "what security policies do we have in place to keep this from happening in > Fedora-land?" And his response was, "I don't know, what security policies > do we have in place to keep this from happening in Fedora-land?" > > We know that RHEL is secure and stable, and we *do* have safeguards in > place to prevent this from happening in RHEL-land. But a mistake like > this in Fedora-land would be every bit as bad for the Red Hat and Fedora > brands. > > Are there any steps we can take to protect ourselves from this kind of > mistake -- in which a packager does something dumb to the package and no > one notices it? The thing I find amazing about this bug is that it took 2 years for someone to notice it. I think in part this is due to the size of debian making it pretty much impossible for someone to review every change that goes in. The casual observer just has no chance to keep up with the rate of change. (and there are parallels to kernel development here, git has increased the merge rate to the point where one person really can't sanely review everything that goes in). I think the only real answer is to make sure that for critical packages, there exists >1 person actually reading the changes that go in. Though the possibility of groupthink taints even this approach. Clearly a number of debian developers thought that change was a great idea, without realising the consequences. Other than review though, and making sure that any patches we carry are either a) short-lived [ie, on their way upstream], or b) carried forever for really good reasons. Something the SuSE guys have done which I'm thinking we should adopt for our patches (in the kernel at least), is a header at the top of each patch detailing its upstream status, (and if not upstream, why not). Additionally, something else I think we should be doing more of is automated testing. We do a bunch of this for RHEL already. There was a whole brouhaha at rh summit a few years ago about how we were going to opensource our QA test harnesses. None of that happened afaict. Perhaps it'd be faster to reinvent something new anyway. (Seemed to work out for the better that way with koji). Good questions though. This bug could easily have been us on the recieving end. Dave -- http://www.codemonkey.org.uk From smooge at gmail.com Tue May 13 19:04:11 2008 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 13:04:11 -0600 Subject: The Debian/Ubuntu SSL bug In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <80d7e4090805131204k180db916mca60abe7d117ac3d@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 12:45 PM, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > So I've been having a conversation with Mark Cox about the Debian/Ubuntu > SSL bug. This is basically a horror story of what can go wrong when > packagers don't maintain close relationships with upstream. I asked Mark, > "what security policies do we have in place to keep this from happening in > Fedora-land?" And his response was, "I don't know, what security policies > do we have in place to keep this from happening in Fedora-land?" > > We know that RHEL is secure and stable, and we *do* have safeguards in > place to prevent this from happening in RHEL-land. But a mistake like this > in Fedora-land would be every bit as bad for the Red Hat and Fedora brands. > > Are there any steps we can take to protect ourselves from this kind of > mistake -- in which a packager does something dumb to the package and no one > notices it? > Well the biggest step would be to add additional code review steps for packages... and probably trying to increase the number of 'code-monkeys' per package. However, I am not sure that is the best step... especially to the crowd that believes Fedora is too bureaucratic now. Would having a review release, where instead of trying to put in things as newer we worked on getting more eyes on the code make sense? How could it be done? Also, how many times does a patch get added because someone saw it in the 'Debian' or 'SuSE' trees and it looked like it 'fixed' something? -- Stephen J Smoogen. -- BSD/GNU/Linux How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice" From davej at redhat.com Tue May 13 19:10:41 2008 From: davej at redhat.com (Dave Jones) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 15:10:41 -0400 Subject: The Debian/Ubuntu SSL bug In-Reply-To: <80d7e4090805131204k180db916mca60abe7d117ac3d@mail.gmail.com> References: <80d7e4090805131204k180db916mca60abe7d117ac3d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080513191041.GB13857@redhat.com> On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 01:04:11PM -0600, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > Also, how many times does a patch get added because someone saw it in > the 'Debian' or 'SuSE' trees and it looked like it 'fixed' something? I really hope cargo-culting of other distros patches doesn't happen a lot, (especially for anything important) without at least one person who maintains that package understanding the reason why that patch is important. "Because debian did" really should never be an excuse for committing something. Dave -- http://www.codemonkey.org.uk From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue May 13 19:15:15 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 11:15:15 -0800 Subject: The Debian/Ubuntu SSL bug In-Reply-To: <20080513185604.GA13857@redhat.com> References: <20080513185604.GA13857@redhat.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910805131215w75638349ja61f5cdea5b313c5@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 10:56 AM, Dave Jones wrote: > Something the SuSE guys have done which I'm thinking we should adopt for our > patches (in the kernel at least), is a header at the top of each patch > detailing its upstream status, (and if not upstream, why not). A status header for all patches might be a good thing, if.... we can do it in such a way that we can establish some sort of process that periodically reviews the status headers for each patch and uses manpower to do the follow-up for older patches or patches without a status header. I would imagine it could be run in a similar way to how the Feature Process is run, with a Patch Wrangler (Team) who is(are) deputized to seek out maintainers when updates concern patches status are needed. Did you also intend to draw a line in the sand concerning the age of a patch? If a patch is a certain age it automatically needs more frequent status updates? Sort of like when you reach a certain age and you need to go in for a colonoscopy on a regular basis? -jef From joadams at redhat.com Tue May 13 17:56:31 2008 From: joadams at redhat.com (John Adams) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 13:56:31 -0400 Subject: new list of names for fedora grid project In-Reply-To: <4829D436.1000703@redhat.com> References: <4829D436.1000703@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4829D64F.4020702@redhat.com> Just a quick caveat: We are putting these names out for feedback before passing them through trademark clearance. The #1 rule of naming is not to fall in love with anything before it clears, because that will undoubtedly be the name that is unavailable! So, please remember that some or even most of these names possibly / probably won't be available for use. But, your feedback helps us prioritize the names that we will submit for legal trademark search. Thanks! John P.S. I'd be happy to explain the thinking / rationale behind any of these name ideas, if anyone has questions. Bryan Che wrote: > Hi, thanks to John Adams for generating an updated list of potential > names for the Fedora grid project. John's recommendations, in order, > are: > > Tier 1 > 1. Powernap > 2. Nightlife > 3. Awaken > > Tier 2 > 1. PowerFarm > 2. Think Tank > 3. Slumber > > Tier 3 > 1. Siesta > 2. Underground > 3. Swarm > > Attached is his full list. > > Please reply by Friday 5/16 with +1/0/-1 votes on names, and I'll take > the updated candidates to legal review afterwards. > > Bryan > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -- John Q. Adams Brand Manager | Red Hat Brand Communications + Design 919.754.4471 joadams at redhat.com From mjc at redhat.com Tue May 13 18:57:37 2008 From: mjc at redhat.com (Mark J Cox) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 19:57:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: The Debian/Ubuntu SSL bug In-Reply-To: <20080513185604.GA13857@redhat.com> References: <20080513185604.GA13857@redhat.com> Message-ID: <0805131954100.27978@mjc.redhat.com> > The thing I find amazing about this bug is that it took 2 years for someone > to notice it. I think in part this is due to the size of debian making it > pretty much impossible for someone to review every change that goes in. In this case it's also a little to do with the complexity of the issue, it was in fact proposed by the vendor to the upstream project development list and no one really noticed it would have a bad side-effect: http://marc.info/?m=114651085826293&w=2 > Something the SuSE guys have done which I'm thinking we should adopt for our > patches (in the kernel at least), is a header at the top of each patch > detailing its upstream status, (and if not upstream, why not). Yeah, this should be enforced. We ought to be including signatures for the pristine upstream tarballs in the srpms too (where upstream signs their output). At least we then can know for certain what has been touched outside of upstream. Cheers, Mark From tibbs at math.uh.edu Tue May 13 19:23:13 2008 From: tibbs at math.uh.edu (Jason L Tibbitts III) Date: 13 May 2008 14:23:13 -0500 Subject: The Debian/Ubuntu SSL bug In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >>>>> "GD" == Greg DeKoenigsberg writes: GD> Are there any steps we can take to protect ourselves from this GD> kind of mistake -- in which a packager does something dumb to the GD> package and no one notices it? Well, we're starting with http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackagingDrafts/PatchUpstreamStatus which has been passed by the packaging committee and ratified by FESCo. Of course, it's not mandatory, but it's a start. (And as much as I hate to think about more bureaucracy, it's probably worth considering whether it should be mandatory in light of the problem under discussion.) >From here we can both extend the information we keep about patches and write some tools for tracking and displaying that information so that folks can examine the patch status of a package without having to read the specfile or pulling patches from CVS. - J< From gdk at redhat.com Tue May 13 19:43:15 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 15:43:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The Debian/Ubuntu SSL bug In-Reply-To: <20080513185604.GA13857@redhat.com> References: <20080513185604.GA13857@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 May 2008, Dave Jones wrote: > On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 02:45:29PM -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > > > So I've been having a conversation with Mark Cox about the > > Debian/Ubuntu SSL bug. This is basically a horror story of what can > > go wrong when packagers don't maintain close relationships with > > upstream. I asked Mark, "what security policies do we have in place > > to keep this from happening in Fedora-land?" And his response was, "I > > don't know, what security policies do we have in place to keep this > > from happening in Fedora-land?" > > > > We know that RHEL is secure and stable, and we *do* have safeguards in > > place to prevent this from happening in RHEL-land. But a mistake like > > this in Fedora-land would be every bit as bad for the Red Hat and > > Fedora brands. > > > > Are there any steps we can take to protect ourselves from this kind of > > mistake -- in which a packager does something dumb to the package and > > no one notices it? > > The thing I find amazing about this bug is that it took 2 years for > someone to notice it. I think in part this is due to the size of debian > making it pretty much impossible for someone to review every change that > goes in. The casual observer just has no chance to keep up with the rate > of change. (and there are parallels to kernel development here, git has > increased the merge rate to the point where one person really can't > sanely review everything that goes in). > > I think the only real answer is to make sure that for critical packages, > there exists >1 person actually reading the changes that go in. Though > the possibility of groupthink taints even this approach. Clearly a > number of debian developers thought that change was a great idea, > without realising the consequences. Seems like a good idea -- not that we should go do it tomorrow or anything, but it seems sensible to me. How do we identify which packages are critical? Certainly anything that creates encrypted keys goes in this bucket. :) > Other than review though, and making sure that any patches we carry are > either a) short-lived [ie, on their way upstream], or b) carried forever > for really good reasons. > > Something the SuSE guys have done which I'm thinking we should adopt for > our patches (in the kernel at least), is a header at the top of each > patch detailing its upstream status, (and if not upstream, why not). This sounds like a *really* good idea to me. It sounds sensible, highly auditable, not too much of a headache, and something that packagers coudl keep up with. > Additionally, something else I think we should be doing more of is > automated testing. We do a bunch of this for RHEL already. There was > a whole brouhaha at rh summit a few years ago about how we were going to > opensource our QA test harnesses. None of that happened afaict. > Perhaps it'd be faster to reinvent something new anyway. > (Seemed to work out for the better that way with koji). This is a whole other kettle of worms, I'm afraid. And yes, maybe we should reinvent from scratch, but I don't even know where we'd begin. --g -- Greg DeKoenigsberg Community Development Manager Red Hat, Inc. :: 1-919-754-4255 "To whomsoever much hath been given... ...from him much shall be asked" From dennis at ausil.us Tue May 13 19:44:13 2008 From: dennis at ausil.us (Dennis Gilmore) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 14:44:13 -0500 Subject: The Debian/Ubuntu SSL bug In-Reply-To: <20080513185604.GA13857@redhat.com> References: <20080513185604.GA13857@redhat.com> Message-ID: <200805131444.18867.dennis@ausil.us> On Tuesday 13 May 2008, Dave Jones wrote: > > Additionally, something else I think we should be doing more of is > automated testing. We do a bunch of this for RHEL already. There was > a whole brouhaha at rh summit a few years ago about how we were going to > opensource our QA test harnesses. None of that happened afaict. > Perhaps it'd be faster to reinvent something new anyway. > (Seemed to work out for the better that way with koji). koji is brew rebadged, it wasn't written from scratch for us. I do wonder what ever happend to the QA framework we were promised? Will Woods please speak up. Dennis -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue May 13 20:32:43 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 02:02:43 +0530 Subject: The Debian/Ubuntu SSL bug In-Reply-To: <20080513185604.GA13857@redhat.com> References: <20080513185604.GA13857@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4829FAEB.2070206@fedoraproject.org> Dave Jones wrote: > Something the SuSE guys have done which I'm thinking we should adopt for our > patches (in the kernel at least), is a header at the top of each patch > detailing its upstream status, (and if not upstream, why not). There has been some recent guidelines related to this that has been approved. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackagingDrafts/PatchUpstreamStatus Rahul From davej at redhat.com Tue May 13 20:44:05 2008 From: davej at redhat.com (Dave Jones) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 16:44:05 -0400 Subject: The Debian/Ubuntu SSL bug In-Reply-To: <604aa7910805131215w75638349ja61f5cdea5b313c5@mail.gmail.com> References: <20080513185604.GA13857@redhat.com> <604aa7910805131215w75638349ja61f5cdea5b313c5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080513204405.GA22492@redhat.com> On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 11:15:15AM -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 10:56 AM, Dave Jones wrote: > > Something the SuSE guys have done which I'm thinking we should adopt for our > > patches (in the kernel at least), is a header at the top of each patch > > detailing its upstream status, (and if not upstream, why not). > > A status header for all patches might be a good thing, if.... > we can do it in such a way that we can establish some sort of process > that periodically reviews the status headers for each patch and uses > manpower to do the follow-up for older patches or patches without a > status header. > > I would imagine it could be run in a similar way to how the Feature > Process is run, with a Patch Wrangler (Team) who is(are) deputized to > seek out maintainers when updates concern patches status are needed. > > Did you also intend to draw a line in the sand concerning the age of a > patch? If a patch is a certain age it automatically needs more > frequent status updates? Sort of like when you reach a certain age and > you need to go in for a colonoscopy on a regular basis? In some cases 'never' will be a valid answer for 'when upstream?'. Features that got vetoed (hi execshield!), or just distro-centric changes that upstream doesn't care about. For anything else, I think patches that survive >1 release should probably be eyed with suspicion. We're supposed to be "close to upstream" after all, and if patches are lasting longer than that without good reason, questions should probably be asked. Dave -- http://www.codemonkey.org.uk From jkeating at redhat.com Tue May 13 21:12:56 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 17:12:56 -0400 Subject: The Debian/Ubuntu SSL bug In-Reply-To: <20080513204405.GA22492@redhat.com> References: <20080513185604.GA13857@redhat.com> <604aa7910805131215w75638349ja61f5cdea5b313c5@mail.gmail.com> <20080513204405.GA22492@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1210713176.3170.73.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2008-05-13 at 16:44 -0400, Dave Jones wrote: > > In some cases 'never' will be a valid answer for 'when upstream?'. > Features that got vetoed (hi execshield!), or just distro-centric > changes that upstream doesn't care about. > > For anything else, I think patches that survive >1 release should > probably be eyed with suspicion. We're supposed to be "close to upstream" > after all, and if patches are lasting longer than that without good reason, > questions should probably be asked. This sounds like something we could work into the requirements list for SCM 2.0, something that will allow us to easily identify and audit the patch sets going into our packages, as well as integrate a signed-off-by or some such. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Tue May 13 21:53:22 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 21:53:22 +0000 Subject: Red Hat Board Appointments Message-ID: <1210715602.11561.98.camel@victoria> As everyone probably knows, the Fedora Board is moving into an election season due to the release of another Fedora. In advance of the election, Red Hat appoints one seat, and the final seat is appointed afterward to make sure the Board is fairly balanced to represent the Board's many constituents. In addition, to fix our scheduling so that only half the Board is turning over at each election cycle, Red Hat has agreed to extend one appointment by a single release of Fedora (or about six months). Karsten Wade will remain in his current seat on the Fedora Board until just after Fedora 10. At that point, Red Hat has the option to appoint someone else to his seat. Red Hat has named Harald Hoyer, a Senior Software Engineer in Red Hat's Stuttgart office, to occupy one of the two open appointed seats. Harald brings with him a wealth of experience as a maintainer of everything from the CD and DVD toolsets to the Bluetooth stack and udev. I'm sure the entire Fedora community will join me in welcoming Harald to the Board. Harald -- good to have you aboard! Harald and the rest of the new Board will join us for their first meeting around July 1st. Furthermore, I'd like to say how great it's been to work with Steve Dickson and Seth Vidal, both appointed Board members who are vacating their seats this cycle. They've been invaluable in helping the Board consider policy and guidance issues for Fedora, some of them subtle and controversial. The work is sometimes thankless, but these guys make it much more pleasant through their can-do attitudes (and frequent good humor). I'd also like to point out that they are both free to run in elections like any Fedora community member, and I hope they will both consider doing so. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue May 13 22:20:17 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 15:20:17 -0700 Subject: Red Hat Board Appointments In-Reply-To: <1210715602.11561.98.camel@victoria> References: <1210715602.11561.98.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <1210717217.15603.468.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Tue, 2008-05-13 at 21:53 +0000, Paul W. Frields wrote: > As everyone probably knows, the Fedora Board is moving into an election > season due to the release of another Fedora. In advance of the > election, Red Hat appoints one seat, and the final seat is appointed > afterward to make sure the Board is fairly balanced to represent the > Board's many constituents. > > In addition, to fix our scheduling so that only half the Board is > turning over at each election cycle, Red Hat has agreed to extend one > appointment by a single release of Fedora (or about six months). > Karsten Wade will remain in his current seat on the Fedora Board until > just after Fedora 10. At that point, Red Hat has the option to appoint > someone else to his seat. And I hope they take that option! Aside from the chance to yet again be the sacrificial lamb who represents Shadowman, I really wanted to keep myself out of the election this time. Too many incumbents and people with high visibility makes it harder for newer folks to get elected, by drawing votes and attention away. Then, if I still feel like doing this, I can run next time when all my most electable colleagues are already in their seats, leaving me room to receive a 100% vote mandate! World domination and Fedora-based femmebots, here I come!!! - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Sr. Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From rtlm10 at gmail.com Wed May 14 04:56:37 2008 From: rtlm10 at gmail.com (Russell Harrison) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 00:56:37 -0400 Subject: The Debian/Ubuntu SSL bug In-Reply-To: <20080513185604.GA13857@redhat.com> References: <20080513185604.GA13857@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1ed4a0130805132156n2422587tfa893fc0b75481c0@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 2:56 PM, Dave Jones wrote: > Something the SuSE guys have done which I'm thinking we should adopt for our > patches (in the kernel at least), is a header at the top of each patch > detailing its upstream status, (and if not upstream, why not). +1 Russell From rc040203 at freenet.de Wed May 14 15:07:52 2008 From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 17:07:52 +0200 Subject: bug triage considered useful? Message-ID: <1210777672.26792.1056.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> Provoking question: Am I the only person in Fedora who considers this bug triaging (esp. today's) to be producing more noise and spam than useful results? Ralf From kanarip at kanarip.com Wed May 14 15:10:02 2008 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 17:10:02 +0200 Subject: bug triage considered useful? In-Reply-To: <1210777672.26792.1056.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> References: <1210777672.26792.1056.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> Message-ID: <482B00CA.9010607@kanarip.com> Ralf Corsepius wrote: > Provoking question: > > Am I the only person in Fedora who considers this bug triaging (esp. > today's) to be producing more noise and spam than useful results? > Most likely. -Jeroen From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed May 14 15:36:05 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 07:36:05 -0800 Subject: bug triage considered useful? In-Reply-To: <1210777672.26792.1056.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> References: <1210777672.26792.1056.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> Message-ID: <604aa7910805140836r4bc02cf5md7eac0287041b40f@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 7:07 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > Provoking question: > > Am I the only person in Fedora who considers this bug triaging (esp. > today's) to be producing more noise and spam than useful results? So far I've found it useful. The messages I'm getting have reminded me to re-look at a number of items I've filled to see if they are still relevant, which I've totally forgotten about filing against now dead Fedora releases. -jef From matt at domsch.com Wed May 14 15:36:53 2008 From: matt at domsch.com (Matt Domsch) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 10:36:53 -0500 Subject: bug triage considered useful? In-Reply-To: <1210777672.26792.1056.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> References: <1210777672.26792.1056.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> Message-ID: <20080514153653.GA19222@domsch.com> On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 05:07:52PM +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > Provoking question: > > Am I the only person in Fedora who considers this bug triaging (esp. > today's) to be producing more noise and spam than useful results? Having had to personally deal with tens of thousands of bugs / bug reports / issues / resolutions in the 9+ years I've been actively developing Linux, I'm glad for _anyone_ who steps up and tries to actively manage this list. Issues get resolved but not closed. Issues get reported but lack follow-up (either developer or reporter) on occasion. Eventually these need to get pruned, like any good garden, leaving only the actual problems which need focus. The Triage effort is designed to do exactly this. Does it generate some additional mail? Yes. Are they taking steps to minimize the extra mail? Yes. But does that mail generation negate the good they're accomplishing? IMHO, No. From mmcgrath at redhat.com Wed May 14 16:05:25 2008 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 11:05:25 -0500 (CDT) Subject: bug triage considered useful? In-Reply-To: <20080514153653.GA19222@domsch.com> References: <1210777672.26792.1056.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <20080514153653.GA19222@domsch.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 May 2008, Matt Domsch wrote: > On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 05:07:52PM +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > > Provoking question: > > > > Am I the only person in Fedora who considers this bug triaging (esp. > > today's) to be producing more noise and spam than useful results? > > > Having had to personally deal with tens of thousands of bugs / bug > reports / issues / resolutions in the 9+ years I've been actively > developing Linux, I'm glad for _anyone_ who steps up and tries to > actively manage this list. Issues get resolved but not closed. > Issues get reported but lack follow-up (either developer or reporter) > on occasion. Eventually these need to get pruned, like any good > garden, leaving only the actual problems which need focus. The Triage > effort is designed to do exactly this. > > Does it generate some additional mail? Yes. Are they taking steps to > minimize the extra mail? Yes. But does that mail generation negate > the good they're accomplishing? IMHO, No. > Agreed, its a completely thankless job and an easy target but after these begining steps are over and the team is into a cycle I think it will do a great deal of good. -Mike From jkeating at redhat.com Wed May 14 16:13:39 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 12:13:39 -0400 Subject: bug triage considered useful? In-Reply-To: <1210777672.26792.1056.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> References: <1210777672.26792.1056.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> Message-ID: <1210781619.3170.126.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 17:07 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > Provoking question: > > Am I the only person in Fedora who considers this bug triaging (esp. > today's) to be producing more noise and spam than useful results? You're probably not the only one, but I do find it useful. It's finding bugs that I'm attached to that are definitely old, no longer useful, and I'm happy to see them closed. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed May 14 16:18:09 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 21:48:09 +0530 Subject: bug triage considered useful? In-Reply-To: <1210777672.26792.1056.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> References: <1210777672.26792.1056.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> Message-ID: <482B10C1.3070700@fedoraproject.org> Ralf Corsepius wrote: > Provoking question: > > Am I the only person in Fedora who considers this bug triaging (esp. > today's) to be producing more noise and spam than useful results? Mails are annoying, yes. People involved are reducing that amount. It does accomplish something very useful and someone who has tried to do this before, I am glad there is a community doing this again. Rahul From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed May 14 16:17:58 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 08:17:58 -0800 Subject: bug triage considered useful? In-Reply-To: References: <1210777672.26792.1056.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <20080514153653.GA19222@domsch.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910805140917y776da750pb8fed4af0632fc4b@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 8:05 AM, Mike McGrath wrote: > Agreed, its a completely thankless job and an easy target but after these > begining steps are over and the team is into a cycle I think it will do a > great deal of good. I'll chip in for a nice steak dinner for the triage team. I certainly appreciate it. Triage was the first thing I failed to do well back in the FC1/2 timeframe. I've since gone on to fail at several other things since then, but I still remember and I salute them. -jef"and by steak dinner... i mean one piece of beef jerky split among the team"spaleta From jkeating at redhat.com Wed May 14 16:42:46 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 12:42:46 -0400 Subject: bug triage considered useful? In-Reply-To: <604aa7910805140917y776da750pb8fed4af0632fc4b@mail.gmail.com> References: <1210777672.26792.1056.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <20080514153653.GA19222@domsch.com> <604aa7910805140917y776da750pb8fed4af0632fc4b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1210783366.3170.128.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 08:17 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > -jef"and by steak dinner... i mean one piece of beef jerky split among > the team"spaleta Could that be moose jerky? -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed May 14 16:59:45 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 08:59:45 -0800 Subject: bug triage considered useful? In-Reply-To: <1210783366.3170.128.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1210777672.26792.1056.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <20080514153653.GA19222@domsch.com> <604aa7910805140917y776da750pb8fed4af0632fc4b@mail.gmail.com> <1210783366.3170.128.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <604aa7910805140959v646da135x10e977baf43b7f58@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 8:42 AM, Jesse Keating wrote: > Could that be moose jerky? I could arrange that yes. And luckily since the greendex quiz doesn't specifically ask about how often you eat moose, you'd get a boost in your effort to beat Seth's ridiculous greendex score by eating moose regularly. -jef From jonstanley at gmail.com Wed May 14 17:21:56 2008 From: jonstanley at gmail.com (Jon Stanley) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 13:21:56 -0400 Subject: bug triage considered useful? In-Reply-To: <604aa7910805140917y776da750pb8fed4af0632fc4b@mail.gmail.com> References: <1210777672.26792.1056.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <20080514153653.GA19222@domsch.com> <604aa7910805140917y776da750pb8fed4af0632fc4b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 12:17 PM, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 8:05 AM, Mike McGrath wrote: > I'll chip in for a nice steak dinner for the triage team. I certainly > appreciate it. Triage was the first thing I failed to do well back in > the FC1/2 timeframe. I've since gone on to fail at several other > things since then, but I still remember and I salute them. And if other people had not tried, we would have no experience to draw from in order to know what works and what doesn't - your past efforts are appreciated :) > -jef"and by steak dinner... i mean one piece of beef jerky split among > the team"spaleta Mmmm, jerky :) From rc040203 at freenet.de Wed May 14 15:22:27 2008 From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 17:22:27 +0200 Subject: bug triage considered useful? In-Reply-To: <482B00CA.9010607@kanarip.com> References: <1210777672.26792.1056.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <482B00CA.9010607@kanarip.com> Message-ID: <1210778547.26792.1061.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 17:10 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > Ralf Corsepius wrote: > > Provoking question: > > > > Am I the only person in Fedora who considers this bug triaging (esp. > > today's) to be producing more noise and spam than useful results? > > > > Most likely. Well, I haven't seen a single useful posting from them today, just bogus reports. Ralf From caillon at redhat.com Wed May 14 18:50:33 2008 From: caillon at redhat.com (Christopher Aillon) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 14:50:33 -0400 Subject: bug triage considered useful? In-Reply-To: <1210778547.26792.1061.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> References: <1210777672.26792.1056.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <482B00CA.9010607@kanarip.com> <1210778547.26792.1061.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> Message-ID: <482B3479.3090509@redhat.com> On 05/14/2008 11:22 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 17:10 +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: >> Ralf Corsepius wrote: >>> Provoking question: >>> >>> Am I the only person in Fedora who considers this bug triaging (esp. >>> today's) to be producing more noise and spam than useful results? >>> >> Most likely. > Well, I haven't seen a single useful posting from them today, just bogus > reports. One way to avoid that in the future is to triage bugs yourself before they get stale. Something else they should do though is to include a $RandomWordForFiltering so once you get one, just apply a filter and kill all of them with one stone. From jonstanley at gmail.com Wed May 14 19:24:41 2008 From: jonstanley at gmail.com (Jon Stanley) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 15:24:41 -0400 Subject: bug triage considered useful? In-Reply-To: <1210778547.26792.1061.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> References: <1210777672.26792.1056.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <482B00CA.9010607@kanarip.com> <1210778547.26792.1061.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> Message-ID: On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 11:22 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > Well, I haven't seen a single useful posting from them today, just bogus > reports. Fedora 7 is going EOL in 30 days. This isn't bogus, it's a fact. Moreover, the process that we're following had been submitted for review, comment, and approval within the community for quite some time prior to it's execution. In fact, at one point I was BEGGING for feedback on it [1]. If you can suggest something better for Fedora 10, some concrete area in which we did the wrong thing (preferably along with suggestions of what the right thing would have been), I'm all ears. [1] http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-March/msg01199.html -- Jon Stanley Fedora Bug Wrangler jstanley at fedoraproject.org From stickster at gmail.com Wed May 14 21:06:29 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 17:06:29 -0400 Subject: bug triage considered useful? In-Reply-To: <604aa7910805140836r4bc02cf5md7eac0287041b40f@mail.gmail.com> References: <1210777672.26792.1056.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <604aa7910805140836r4bc02cf5md7eac0287041b40f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1210799189.11569.134.camel@victoria> On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 07:36 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 7:07 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > > Provoking question: > > > > Am I the only person in Fedora who considers this bug triaging (esp. > > today's) to be producing more noise and spam than useful results? > > So far I've found it useful. The messages I'm getting have reminded me > to re-look at a number of items I've filled to see if they are still > relevant, which I've totally forgotten about filing against now dead > Fedora releases. Same here. It's been extremely useful for making sure I'm not unfairly taking up someone else's attention on their bug list. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed May 14 22:03:16 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 14:03:16 -0800 Subject: Let's re-start a discussion about role-based SIGs Message-ID: <604aa7910805141503w4ba9452ka3cd94aa53aea71b@mail.gmail.com> Okay now that F9 is out the door, and before I've voted out of office, its time to take another stab at a discussion about building and strengthening the abilities of role based SIGs inside the Fedora projects moving forward. I've come to picture the work the Fedora project needs to do as structured in terms of two types of communities (I have to credit Greg for some of the refinement on the image from the last round of discussion about this a few months back). One such type of community I would name "Subprojects". A subproject would be a group of peers who are doing roughly the same things, and could be considered a guild for a particular type of skilled labor. The other type of community I would name "Special Interest Groups" (SIGS), and each SIG would encompass all roles from users to developers that are needed to sustain the growth of software usage and development for a particular purpose. Common tasks or experience define the membership of a Subproject Common interests but different tasks and experience define the membership of a role-based SIG. SIG roles would map directly to subprojects. The idea being that people from different SIGS who are doing the same sort of tasks can establish best practices through discussion in the subprojects associated with that role. For example we'd have a packaging subproject, and each SIG should have members filling the package maintainer role who were also participating in the packaging subproject to learn and refine best practices. Same goes for documentors, triagers and so-on. But its not a one-to-one mapping. There would be needed Subprojects which don't necessarily map to a common SIG role, but they would still exist to get specific work done or to establish a peer group of experts. I would hold up our infrastructure,translation and marketing teams as an example of this type of Subproject construct, a Resource Subproject. They key idea is that for the role-based SIGs idea I am putting forward, we turn the SIG concept deliberately into a construct that encourages direct user participation, so that SIGs can more easily recruit for their own expanding workforce needs their own by connecting with users who are already interested in and using the software in the scope of the SIG. Experienced, veteren SIG members take on the role of mentoring and sponsoring new recruits.. and the SIG becomes a self-sustaining community with the goal of growing the capabilities of open software for a particular area of interest. It is my very fervent belief that we need to build a recruitment and retention program inside of the Fedora Project that encourages enthusiastic users to become active contributors, and I think the role-based SIG construct has the best potential of doing that.. we just have to shake-up and tighten-up what we mean we we talk about a SIG. And that is exactly what my role-based approach to SIG building is meant to do. Okay so I think that was close enough to a thousand words. Here's the updated cartoon diagram of what I mean when I'm talking about role-based SIGs: http://jspaleta.fedorapeople.org/role-based-sigs/sig-teams.png How would this impact our current teams? Some current SIGs would simply be rebranded as Subprojects. Some would decide they really are both a SIG and a subproject (Art for example could easily be both) For the SIGs that remain, they start identifying roles and 'we' find a way to recruit poeple to fill those roles, and we start building ways to connect users directly with SIGs. But people have to want to run SIGs this way. They have to want to turn SIGs into this sort of meeting places that encourages user participation. Once people agree this is the way to structure things, then we can start to re-enforce that structure. -jef From smooge at gmail.com Wed May 14 22:52:20 2008 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 16:52:20 -0600 Subject: Let's re-start a discussion about role-based SIGs In-Reply-To: <604aa7910805141503w4ba9452ka3cd94aa53aea71b@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910805141503w4ba9452ka3cd94aa53aea71b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <80d7e4090805141552s3a12a3a4v55656e9ba504c079@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 4:03 PM, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > Okay now that F9 is out the door, and before I've voted out of office, > its time to take another stab at a discussion about building and > strengthening the abilities of role based SIGs inside the Fedora > projects moving forward. > > I've come to picture the work the Fedora project needs to do as > structured in terms of two types of communities (I have to credit Greg > for some of the refinement on the image from the last round of > discussion about this a few months back). One such type of community I > would name "Subprojects". A subproject would be a group of peers who > are doing roughly the same things, and could be considered a guild for > a particular type of skilled labor. The other type of community I > would name "Special Interest Groups" (SIGS), and each SIG would > encompass all roles from users to developers that are needed to > sustain the growth of software usage and development for a particular > purpose. > To help me work on a conversation... would EPEL would be a sub-project or a SIG? PPC port would be a sub-project or a SIG? [The picture says sub-project.. but I want to confirm] The next issue would be can people fill different roles: Mairin Duffy would hit multiple areas. I don't see anything in the proposal that says they can't but its long and I might have missed it. The third issue is management. Each SIG and Sub Project would require their own management structure. Are they overlapping or are they complementary? What size should they be and how do they map to an overall tree (some people hate trees, others require some knowledge of their local ape grooming structure to function.) -- Stephen J Smoogen. -- BSD/GNU/Linux How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice" From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu May 15 00:58:32 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 16:58:32 -0800 Subject: Let's re-start a discussion about role-based SIGs In-Reply-To: <80d7e4090805141552s3a12a3a4v55656e9ba504c079@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910805141503w4ba9452ka3cd94aa53aea71b@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090805141552s3a12a3a4v55656e9ba504c079@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910805141758i78d0c0ffndb9322a99799ee09@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 2:52 PM, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > EPEL would be a sub-project or a SIG? EPEL would be a subproject, and quite likely a role that some SIGs would want to carry. I could certainly see a Scientific Computing SIG wanting to get EPEL maintainers roles in place. > PPC port would be a sub-project or a SIG? [The picture says > sub-project.. but I want to confirm] PPC would be a subproject. > > The next issue would be can people fill different roles: Mairin Duffy > would hit multiple areas. I don't see anything in the proposal that > says they can't but its long and I might have missed it. No this isn't meant to say people can't wear multiple hats. Let me be very clear on that. There is no inherent constraint here telling people they can not be in multiple roles. Nor is there anything saying that a SIG has to have X number of people in each role or less than Y number of people in each role. It's simply meant as a way to better organize how we match existing human capital and develop potential human capital to get the Fedora Project work done. What this project can do will forever be manpower bound. There is never going to be a lack of opportunity to contribute. But we also have to make sure we don't overburden people by making them feel they are doing too much of everything that is required for a SIG to work. It's real easy high impact people to over-extend and be too involved as demands rise, and I don't want a project structure that encourages that. I want a structure that encourages recruitment of new contributors to meet rising manpower demands as we raise the quality and breadth of the work we do. It's the difference between positioning things so people feel valued versus feeling burdened. Its the difference between feeling important and useful and feeling critical and overworked. I want to make sure we've got the right support structures in place so when personal situations change for individual volunteers and they have to roll back, or change how they are volunteering their time, the work they were doing can continue apace without any hard feelings. We can help with that by defining some broadly common tasks that SIGs all have to do, defining those tasks as a role, and creating a subproject that supports the people in that role across all SIGs. > > The third issue is management. Each SIG and Sub Project would require > their own management structure. Are they overlapping or are they > complementary? What size should they be and how do they map to an > overall tree (some people hate trees, others require some knowledge of > their local ape grooming structure to function.) There's actually nothing new here in terms of organizational problems. We already sort of have this problem if you look across the landscape now. Basically I look at SIGs as being implementors of all the best practices and Fedora project tools as applied to some portion of the software landscape. The subprojects are the groups that create those best practices and tools. So a documentation subproject would have a set of tools and best practices on how to communicate important information. A SIG, such as a Robotics SIG would want a documenter role internal, whose task it was to use those practices and tools and generate the release notes or errata or whatever documentation content the Robotics SIG wants to see to communicate the absolutely frelling awesomeness inherent in the software it shepards. One of the inherent responsibilities of that role would be to work as a member of the documentation subproject. The same goes for a triager or packager or whatever common role we want to define. The SIG as a self-interest in encouraging the person who takes on one of the roles to grow in expertise in that role by being active in the subproject associated with that role to bring the overall quality of the user experience up over time for all the software the SIG wants to champion. And th subprojects give a place for people to contribute that isn't encapsulated as a SIG. That's okay too. If someone wants to help with documentation tools,but doesn't have a particular set of software they want to write release-notes for...thats absolutely fine. Certainly we will still have a valid need for packagers who are working outside of a SIG, but they may want to be involved in the a packaging subproject or even a language specific subproject like one for ruby or mono or even the very obscure python language that no one uses. But by going it alone, they'll lose the benefit of shared workload that a SIG provides as they take on more and more packages. We certainly can't draw nice neat circles around all the software in the repository. But we should encourage the formation of sustainable SIGs when we can draw those sort of circles(overlapping circles are okay too). I want to encourage sustainable SIG building as a better option to spread the work around as the overall amount of work being done rises. -jef From poelstra at redhat.com Thu May 15 03:39:07 2008 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Wed, 14 May 2008 20:39:07 -0700 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2008-May-13 Message-ID: <482BB05B.1030200@redhat.com> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/Meetings/2008-05-13 == Roll Call == Attendees: Bill Nottingham, John Poelstra, Paul Frields, Jef Spaleta, Dennis Gilmore, Chris Aillon, Seth Vidal, Regrets: Matt Domsch, Steve Dickson, Karsten Wade == Board Succession == * Karsten Wade will continue in his seat * Harold Hoyer new appointee * Third Red Hat appointed seat will be announced after the community elections * Four seats will be elected by the community * http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/Elections/Nominations * Board nominations run from now until June 12, 2008. * Board elections run from June 13 to 22, 2008 * Final board meeting with current board June 24, 2008 * First meeting of new board is July 1, 2008 == Codeina == * Need to restart discussion on fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com to get plans in place at the start of F10 * Chris Aillon to make contact with Bastien Nocera to find out what current plans are From rc040203 at freenet.de Thu May 15 04:39:22 2008 From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 06:39:22 +0200 Subject: bug triage considered useful? In-Reply-To: References: <1210777672.26792.1056.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <482B00CA.9010607@kanarip.com> <1210778547.26792.1061.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> Message-ID: <1210826362.26792.1151.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 15:24 -0400, Jon Stanley wrote: > On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 11:22 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > > > Well, I haven't seen a single useful posting from them today, just bogus > > reports. > > Fedora 7 is going EOL in 30 days. This isn't bogus, it's a fact. In bugzilla, most reporters use the "version" in the sense of "first version of Fedora" having been affected by a bug. Now, you are spamming them the reporters with mails, effectively pushing them around demanding action on something they are not responsible for. => you are driving away reporters. At the same time, you are forcing maintainers to waste time on actions on something they likely are aware about. At least to me, as a maintainer, the effect most of the triage mails I received in recent days had, was me to reopen/change the version tags in PRs they complained about and to extend my MUA's /dev/null-filter. > Moreover, the process that we're following had been submitted for > review, comment, and approval within the community for quite some time > prior to it's execution. In fact, at one point I was BEGGING for > feedback on it [1]. I have always been opposed to this kind of triage ... IIRC, I had spoken up, then, but I am not sufficiently interested in this kind of job and am too busy with other tasks, to be wanting to get further involved into it. - Now, I am only complaining, because your deeds are showing to have too much of an impact on me. > If you can suggest something better for Fedora > 10, some concrete area in which we did the wrong thing (preferably > along with suggestions of what the right thing would have been), I'm > all ears. > > [1] http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-March/msg01199.html > IMHO, the essential effect your triage-robot has, is cosmetics to the bug number statistics, without actually fixing much. I feel, a human (or a team), "systematically and *sustainably* inspecting old bugs" and - more important - taking _immediate_ action on new reports, would be a better approach. It would help getting bugs fixed, instead of seeing them "closed" after they had been lingering around much too long. That said, IMHO, the essential effect your triage-robot has, is cosmetics to the bug number statistics, without actually fixing much. Ralf From rc040203 at freenet.de Thu May 15 02:52:13 2008 From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 04:52:13 +0200 Subject: bug triage considered useful? In-Reply-To: References: <1210777672.26792.1056.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <20080514153653.GA19222@domsch.com> Message-ID: <1210819933.26792.1090.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 11:05 -0500, Mike McGrath wrote: > On Wed, 14 May 2008, Matt Domsch wrote: > > > On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 05:07:52PM +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > > > Provoking question: > > > > > > Am I the only person in Fedora who considers this bug triaging (esp. > > > today's) to be producing more noise and spam than useful results? > > > > > > Having had to personally deal with tens of thousands of bugs / bug > > reports / issues / resolutions in the 9+ years I've been actively > > developing Linux, I'm glad for _anyone_ who steps up and tries to > > actively manage this list. Issues get resolved but not closed. > > Issues get reported but lack follow-up (either developer or reporter) > > on occasion. Eventually these need to get pruned, like any good > > garden, leaving only the actual problems which need focus. The Triage > > effort is designed to do exactly this. I am not denying this kind of job needs to be done, nor I am I denying this to be an unthankful job, but ... I am questioning their approach. > > Does it generate some additional mail? Yes. Are they taking steps to > > minimize the extra mail? Yes. But does that mail generation negate > > the good they're accomplishing? IMHO, No. IMO, it "negates the good". They mail-bomb reporters, they mail-bomb maintainers, they flood mailing-lists, they render bugzilla entries unreadable, they produce plenty of superfluous/bogus reports ... All in all, I find the collateral damage to be too high, because they do not fix the causes for PRs to pile up but are "playing with symptoms". > Agreed, its a completely thankless job and an easy target but after these > begining steps are over and the team is into a cycle I think it will do a > great deal of good. Well, I do not agree. As far as I am concerned as reporter and maintainer, all they have done is to close a hardly measurable number of PRs which had really become outdated because the "package maintainer had ignored it" and caused nothing but spam on the overwhelming majority of open PRs. Ralf From jonrob at fedoraproject.org Thu May 15 13:43:11 2008 From: jonrob at fedoraproject.org (Jonathan Roberts) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 14:43:11 +0100 Subject: Fedora and the world Message-ID: <507738ef0805150643r20890dc9m67a3f1c166703406@mail.gmail.com> Hey all, I'm not sure what people will think of this message, and it is no more than a very rough discussion starter, but I thought I'd speak up and see if anybody was interested. How much consideration does Fedora put into its impact on the wider world? One specific example might be our servers: * What are their PSUs like? I know some can be very wasteful while others incredibly efficient. * Who are the electricity suppliers for them? Again, some are more efficient than others, and some will get more from renewable sources than others. Here in the UK, there are companies who guarantee that for every unit of energy used, they'll produce one unit from a renewable source - and they even match your current suppliers rates. What about where Fedora's accounts are held? * Many banks will invest in arms companies, sweatshops etc and other ethically dubious organisations * Some banks hold an ethical policy where they explicitly state what kind of projects your money is invested in, and guarantee not to invest in some groups What about the impact of FUDCon? I think we're already heading in a good direction with more FUDCons being held around the world, but it's something we might want to consider. Interested to hear people's thoughts, Jon From ivazqueznet at gmail.com Thu May 15 16:57:39 2008 From: ivazqueznet at gmail.com (Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 12:57:39 -0400 Subject: Fedora and the world In-Reply-To: <507738ef0805150643r20890dc9m67a3f1c166703406@mail.gmail.com> References: <507738ef0805150643r20890dc9m67a3f1c166703406@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1210870660.26278.203.camel@ignacio.lan> On Thu, 2008-05-15 at 14:43 +0100, Jonathan Roberts wrote: > I'm not sure what people will think of this message, and it is no more > than a very rough discussion starter, but I thought I'd speak up and > see if anybody was interested. > How much consideration does Fedora put into its impact on the wider > world? One specific example might be our servers: We can provide the resources for improving power efficiency, but I don't believe that we should dictate external policies. > What about where Fedora's accounts are held? What if a Fedora account is held by someone seeking to overthrow a government? What if a Fedora account is held by a company seeking to find a cure for a terminal disease via illegal stem cell research? What if a Fedora account is held by a vandal? A robber? Someone speaking out against a religion? IMO, the Fedora Project MUST maintain an amoral stance on who gets accounts (within the realm of the laws it's bound by, of course), even if the members feel otherwise. -- Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams PLEASE don't CC me; I'm already subscribed -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu May 15 17:18:27 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 09:18:27 -0800 Subject: Fedora and the world In-Reply-To: <1210870660.26278.203.camel@ignacio.lan> References: <507738ef0805150643r20890dc9m67a3f1c166703406@mail.gmail.com> <1210870660.26278.203.camel@ignacio.lan> Message-ID: <604aa7910805151018n68bd4019nbe462bde0f0f9f43@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 8:57 AM, Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams wrote: > What if a Fedora account is held by someone seeking to overthrow a > government? What if a Fedora account is held by a company seeking to > find a cure for a terminal disease via illegal stem cell research? What > if a Fedora account is held by a vandal? A robber? Someone speaking out > against a religion? > > IMO, the Fedora Project MUST maintain an amoral stance on who gets > accounts (within the realm of the laws it's bound by, of course), even > if the members feel otherwise. Oh we are talking about FAS accounts.... not the secret monetary bank accounts that I'm not suppose to know about. I think FAS usage policy should be as narrow as possible, and account restrictions and terminations scenarios should be well defined and limited to things which directly impact the ability for this project to function without speaking to any larger political agenda. I certainly wouldn't want to see Fedora policies designed to punish 'bad' behavior outside the scope of Fedora operations. We've got more than enough political drama internally, thanks. Now as a project, we might empower the Board to find a way to reward externally facing behavior. The Fedora Peace Prize? The Fedora Green Living Initiave? The Fedora Pimped Out Ride Award? With the payoff for the project being strengthening the awareness of the Fedora brand and the Fedora mission as a force for social good. -jef From jeffreyt at fedoraproject.org Thu May 15 17:33:25 2008 From: jeffreyt at fedoraproject.org (Jeffrey Tadlock) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 13:33:25 -0400 Subject: Let's re-start a discussion about role-based SIGs In-Reply-To: <604aa7910805141503w4ba9452ka3cd94aa53aea71b@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910805141503w4ba9452ka3cd94aa53aea71b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <10e0a9b00805151033u1e8ff4b4t6efa0344522debe3@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 6:03 PM, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > They key idea is that for the role-based SIGs idea I am putting > forward, we turn the SIG concept deliberately into a construct that > encourages direct user participation, so that SIGs can more easily > recruit for their own expanding workforce needs their own by > connecting with users who are already interested in and using the > software in the scope of the SIG. Experienced, veteren SIG members > take on the role of mentoring and sponsoring new recruits.. and the > SIG becomes a self-sustaining community with the goal of growing the > capabilities of open software for a particular area of interest. > > It is my very fervent belief that we need to build a recruitment and > retention program inside of the Fedora Project that encourages > enthusiastic users to become active contributors, and I think the > role-based SIG construct has the best potential of doing that.. we > just have to shake-up and tighten-up what we mean we we talk about a > SIG. And that is exactly what my role-based approach to SIG building > is meant to do. I want to be sure I understand the problem trying to be solved before commenting. Is the problem trying to be solved encouraging and increasing direct user participation and contributions? And then once we have that, a method in place to retain our contributors? Thanks! Jeffrey From aoliva at redhat.com Thu May 15 17:49:21 2008 From: aoliva at redhat.com (Alexandre Oliva) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 14:49:21 -0300 Subject: bug triage considered useful? In-Reply-To: <1210819933.26792.1090.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> (Ralf Corsepius's message of "Thu\, 15 May 2008 04\:52\:13 +0200") References: <1210777672.26792.1056.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <20080514153653.GA19222@domsch.com> <1210819933.26792.1090.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> Message-ID: On May 14, 2008, Ralf Corsepius wrote: > I am not denying this kind of job needs to be done, nor I am I denying > this to be an unthankful job, but ... I am questioning their approach. I think it's too early to draw any conclusions. When the process first starts, there's a huge wave of low-hanging fruit that may have been neglected for a very long time. Once it gets into regime, *then* we can tell whether it generates too much traffic or is otherwise harmful. -- Alexandre Oliva http://www.lsd.ic.unicamp.br/~oliva/ Free Software Evangelist oliva@{lsd.ic.unicamp.br, gnu.org} FSFLA Board Member ?S? Libre! => http://www.fsfla.org/ Red Hat Compiler Engineer aoliva@{redhat.com, gcc.gnu.org} From jonrob at fedoraproject.org Thu May 15 18:55:25 2008 From: jonrob at fedoraproject.org (Jonathan Roberts) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 19:55:25 +0100 Subject: Fedora and the world In-Reply-To: <604aa7910805151018n68bd4019nbe462bde0f0f9f43@mail.gmail.com> References: <507738ef0805150643r20890dc9m67a3f1c166703406@mail.gmail.com> <1210870660.26278.203.camel@ignacio.lan> <604aa7910805151018n68bd4019nbe462bde0f0f9f43@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <507738ef0805151155r2bd5ee57ua89b2efdef2f6072@mail.gmail.com> 2008/5/15 Jeff Spaleta : > On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 8:57 AM, Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams > wrote: >> What if a Fedora account is held by someone seeking to overthrow a >> government? What if a Fedora account is held by a company seeking to >> find a cure for a terminal disease via illegal stem cell research? What >> if a Fedora account is held by a vandal? A robber? Someone speaking out >> against a religion? >> >> IMO, the Fedora Project MUST maintain an amoral stance on who gets >> accounts (within the realm of the laws it's bound by, of course), even >> if the members feel otherwise. > > Oh we are talking about FAS accounts.... not the secret monetary bank > accounts that I'm not suppose to know about. Lol, well I was talking about bank accounts, but if Fedora has no money of its own then I guess this isn't a problem! > > I think FAS usage policy should be as narrow as possible, and account > restrictions and terminations scenarios should be well defined and > limited to things which directly impact the ability for this project > to function without speaking to any larger political agenda. I > certainly wouldn't want to see Fedora policies designed to punish > 'bad' behavior outside the scope of Fedora operations. We've got more > than enough political drama internally, thanks. > > Now as a project, we might empower the Board to find a way to reward > externally facing behavior. The Fedora Peace Prize? The Fedora Green > Living Initiave? The Fedora Pimped Out Ride Award? With the payoff > for the project being strengthening the awareness of the Fedora brand > and the Fedora mission as a force for social good. I agree that it would strengthen the Fedora brand, but that shouldn't be the only reason we would do something like this. IMHO, it's the right thing to do, and some steps that we could take might be as simple as thinking carefully about some of the things I suggested in my first e-mail. Best, Jon From jonrob at fedoraproject.org Thu May 15 18:56:43 2008 From: jonrob at fedoraproject.org (Jonathan Roberts) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 19:56:43 +0100 Subject: Fedora and the world In-Reply-To: <1210870660.26278.203.camel@ignacio.lan> References: <507738ef0805150643r20890dc9m67a3f1c166703406@mail.gmail.com> <1210870660.26278.203.camel@ignacio.lan> Message-ID: <507738ef0805151156v13117032tf317207868a45801@mail.gmail.com> 2008/5/15 Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams : > On Thu, 2008-05-15 at 14:43 +0100, Jonathan Roberts wrote: >> I'm not sure what people will think of this message, and it is no more >> than a very rough discussion starter, but I thought I'd speak up and >> see if anybody was interested. > >> How much consideration does Fedora put into its impact on the wider >> world? One specific example might be our servers: > > We can provide the resources for improving power efficiency, but I don't > believe that we should dictate external policies. It's not necessarily a matter of dictating external policies but thinking about who externally we ask to provide us with whatever services. Best, Jon From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu May 15 19:22:32 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 11:22:32 -0800 Subject: Fedora and the world In-Reply-To: <507738ef0805151155r2bd5ee57ua89b2efdef2f6072@mail.gmail.com> References: <507738ef0805150643r20890dc9m67a3f1c166703406@mail.gmail.com> <1210870660.26278.203.camel@ignacio.lan> <604aa7910805151018n68bd4019nbe462bde0f0f9f43@mail.gmail.com> <507738ef0805151155r2bd5ee57ua89b2efdef2f6072@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910805151222i5353153lceee45cf31065f1e@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 10:55 AM, Jonathan Roberts wrote: > I agree that it would strengthen the Fedora brand, but that shouldn't > be the only reason we would do something like this. IMHO, it's the > right thing to do, and some steps that we could take might be as > simple as thinking carefully about some of the things I suggested in > my first e-mail. Let me suggest that there are an infinite number of 'right' things we could do with Fedora's brand capital. And I don't think we are in a position to sustain an effort to do something like crush poverty in Africa at the moment, because we aren't Bono. We aren't.. we just aren't. We really don't have the name recognition to be a force that impacts perception across all possible large scale social issues. Hell we aren't even in a position of strength to champion women's equality in the development world as a mechanism towards economic and political stablization..because we don't have equitable numbers of female contributors ourselves. If and when we stand up for something, we are essentially trading on our brand in an effort to bring attention to the issue. We need to be clever about which social issues we do champion such that when we so that over time it adds to our ability to continue doing it. Now energy consumption, we could definitely take a stand on...because everything we do as part of this project is essentially working against the goals of energy conservation at the moment..as is all open collaborative work being done primarily via the internet. Getting out in front and taking a stand there, would make some sense... if I cared at all about the issue. But since I get a check every year which is tied directly to the price of oil as an Alaskan citizen, I'm all for people driving Humvees.. and I don't mean the new small ones.. i mean military grade ones. Though Google's datacentres far outpace our combined evilness when it comes to energy burnrate. -jef"FYI, the Simon's movie was dead on about Alaska"spaleta From jwboyer at gmail.com Thu May 15 20:23:45 2008 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 15:23:45 -0500 Subject: Fedora and the world In-Reply-To: <507738ef0805151155r2bd5ee57ua89b2efdef2f6072@mail.gmail.com> References: <507738ef0805150643r20890dc9m67a3f1c166703406@mail.gmail.com> <1210870660.26278.203.camel@ignacio.lan> <604aa7910805151018n68bd4019nbe462bde0f0f9f43@mail.gmail.com> <507738ef0805151155r2bd5ee57ua89b2efdef2f6072@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080515152345.1d9faa7b@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> On Thu, 15 May 2008 19:55:25 +0100 "Jonathan Roberts" wrote: > 2008/5/15 Jeff Spaleta : > > On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 8:57 AM, Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams > > wrote: > >> What if a Fedora account is held by someone seeking to overthrow a > >> government? What if a Fedora account is held by a company seeking to > >> find a cure for a terminal disease via illegal stem cell research? What > >> if a Fedora account is held by a vandal? A robber? Someone speaking out > >> against a religion? > >> > >> IMO, the Fedora Project MUST maintain an amoral stance on who gets > >> accounts (within the realm of the laws it's bound by, of course), even > >> if the members feel otherwise. > > > > Oh we are talking about FAS accounts.... not the secret monetary bank > > accounts that I'm not suppose to know about. > > Lol, well I was talking about bank accounts, but if Fedora has no > money of its own then I guess this isn't a problem! As I understand things, Fedora as a project has no monetary control. The money comes from Red Hat and is held in Red Hat accounts. There was discussion at long time ago about creating a Fedora Foundation, however that proved to be not worth the effort. josh From jonrob at fedoraproject.org Thu May 15 21:35:49 2008 From: jonrob at fedoraproject.org (Jonathan Roberts) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 22:35:49 +0100 Subject: Fedora and the world In-Reply-To: <604aa7910805151222i5353153lceee45cf31065f1e@mail.gmail.com> References: <507738ef0805150643r20890dc9m67a3f1c166703406@mail.gmail.com> <1210870660.26278.203.camel@ignacio.lan> <604aa7910805151018n68bd4019nbe462bde0f0f9f43@mail.gmail.com> <507738ef0805151155r2bd5ee57ua89b2efdef2f6072@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910805151222i5353153lceee45cf31065f1e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <507738ef0805151435l347361fbmd039513873bf6fbb@mail.gmail.com> 2008/5/15 Jeff Spaleta : > On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 10:55 AM, Jonathan Roberts > wrote: >> I agree that it would strengthen the Fedora brand, but that shouldn't >> be the only reason we would do something like this. IMHO, it's the >> right thing to do, and some steps that we could take might be as >> simple as thinking carefully about some of the things I suggested in >> my first e-mail. > > Let me suggest that there are an infinite number of 'right' things we > could do with Fedora's brand capital. And I don't think we are in a > position to sustain an effort to do something like crush poverty in > Africa at the moment, because we aren't Bono. We aren't.. we just > aren't. We really don't have the name recognition to be a force that > impacts perception across all possible large scale social issues. Hell > we aren't even in a position of strength to champion women's equality > in the development world as a mechanism towards economic and political > stablization..because we don't have equitable numbers of female > contributors ourselves. I'm not asking us to take a stand that's going to change the status quo throughout the world based on our brand. I'm not even asking us to take a stand that's going to reflect positively on our brand - as far as I'm concerned we could do some simple things, particularly on energy conservation, that would have a positive impact and tell no-one about it. > If and when we stand up for something, we are essentially trading on > our brand in an effort to bring attention to the issue. We need to > be clever about which social issues we do champion such that when we > so that over time it adds to our ability to continue doing it. I would agree that we should be clever about which issues we actively link ourselves with, but that doesn't mean to say that we should just ignore the other issues! > Now energy consumption, we could definitely take a stand on...because > everything we do as part of this project is essentially working > against the goals of energy conservation at the moment..as is all open > collaborative work being done primarily via the internet. Getting out > in front and taking a stand there, would make some sense... Well, I for one think it would be a positive step in the right direction if we began by looking at what we could do about our energy consumption. And yes, it would reflect positively on Fedora's brand. Does anyone else on the list have an opinion? From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu May 15 22:17:46 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 14:17:46 -0800 Subject: Fedora and the world In-Reply-To: <20080515152345.1d9faa7b@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> References: <507738ef0805150643r20890dc9m67a3f1c166703406@mail.gmail.com> <1210870660.26278.203.camel@ignacio.lan> <604aa7910805151018n68bd4019nbe462bde0f0f9f43@mail.gmail.com> <507738ef0805151155r2bd5ee57ua89b2efdef2f6072@mail.gmail.com> <20080515152345.1d9faa7b@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: <604aa7910805151517i1f219bb0r465705517a3bf909@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 12:23 PM, Josh Boyer wrote: > As I understand things, Fedora as a project has no monetary control. > The money comes from Red Hat and is held in Red Hat accounts. Yes, I have to blackmail Max or Greg or Paul when I want to see a monies expended on some sort of initiative. Blackmail, sweet-talk or physically threaten, I'll use which every technique works best for each one of them. > > There was discussion at long time ago about creating a Fedora > Foundation, however that proved to be not worth the effort. I think there is a stronger statement to be made than "not worth the effort." It's quite possibly impossible to do as a US non-profit when Red Hat's contributions to the project's actual resource consumption is tallied given the requirements for non-profit status. And a separate for-profit status doesn't actually give us much more than what we have right now, except increased staffing needs to act as a separate business office. The real question is, and continues to be, can we carve out a place inside the current financial structure that we can solicit funds from other entities beside Red Hat meant directly to be spent of community initiatives. It's a completely unanswered question, and we won't know the answer until someone steps forward saying they are willing to drop money into the hands of the Fedora project, to be dispersed by the Fedora Board or other entity delegated by the Board, to meet some sort of objective. Non-profit status is just not going to happen, because Red Hat is too heavily invested in the day-to-day costs of Fedora operations to stand Fedora up as an independent entity. If there are entities out there who would like to give up some funding, I'd very much like to have a conversation with them as to what conditions would make them comfortable doing so..that does not involve a non-profit status. -jef From smooge at gmail.com Thu May 15 22:23:48 2008 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 16:23:48 -0600 Subject: Fedora and the world In-Reply-To: <604aa7910805151517i1f219bb0r465705517a3bf909@mail.gmail.com> References: <507738ef0805150643r20890dc9m67a3f1c166703406@mail.gmail.com> <1210870660.26278.203.camel@ignacio.lan> <604aa7910805151018n68bd4019nbe462bde0f0f9f43@mail.gmail.com> <507738ef0805151155r2bd5ee57ua89b2efdef2f6072@mail.gmail.com> <20080515152345.1d9faa7b@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <604aa7910805151517i1f219bb0r465705517a3bf909@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <80d7e4090805151523x7e5dff8yeb06575afed8b9dd@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 4:17 PM, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 12:23 PM, Josh Boyer wrote: >> As I understand things, Fedora as a project has no monetary control. >> The money comes from Red Hat and is held in Red Hat accounts. > > Yes, I have to blackmail Max or Greg or Paul when I want to see a > monies expended on some sort of initiative. Blackmail, sweet-talk or > physically threaten, I'll use which every technique works best for > each one of them. > >> >> There was discussion at long time ago about creating a Fedora >> Foundation, however that proved to be not worth the effort. > > I think there is a stronger statement to be made than "not worth the > effort." It's quite possibly impossible to do as a US non-profit when > Red Hat's contributions to the project's actual resource consumption > is tallied given the requirements for non-profit status. And a > separate for-profit status doesn't actually give us much more than > what we have right now, except increased staffing needs to act as a > separate business office. > > The real question is, and continues to be, can we carve out a place > inside the current financial structure that we can solicit funds from > other entities beside Red Hat meant directly to be spent of community > initiatives. It's a completely unanswered question, and we won't know > the answer until someone steps forward saying they are willing to drop > money into the hands of the Fedora project, to be dispersed by the > Fedora Board or other entity delegated by the Board, to meet some sort > of objective. Non-profit status is just not going to happen, because > Red Hat is too heavily invested in the day-to-day costs of Fedora > operations to stand Fedora up as an independent entity. If there are > entities out there who would like to give up some funding, I'd very > much like to have a conversation with them as to what conditions would > make them comfortable doing so..that does not involve a non-profit > status. > Not that I think such entities exist... but I don't see how they can give funding without dealing with a non-profit organization or Red Hat were to 'offer' specified services for money with respect to Fedora. In that case some company could then 'pay' Red Hat for say gcc support in Fedora or something.. but there has to be some entity that the organizations would have to do 'business' with. -- Stephen J Smoogen. -- BSD/GNU/Linux How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice" From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu May 15 22:26:50 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 14:26:50 -0800 Subject: Fedora and the world In-Reply-To: <80d7e4090805151523x7e5dff8yeb06575afed8b9dd@mail.gmail.com> References: <507738ef0805150643r20890dc9m67a3f1c166703406@mail.gmail.com> <1210870660.26278.203.camel@ignacio.lan> <604aa7910805151018n68bd4019nbe462bde0f0f9f43@mail.gmail.com> <507738ef0805151155r2bd5ee57ua89b2efdef2f6072@mail.gmail.com> <20080515152345.1d9faa7b@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <604aa7910805151517i1f219bb0r465705517a3bf909@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090805151523x7e5dff8yeb06575afed8b9dd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910805151526w60b0d4alc09daaa92c999ebb@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 2:23 PM, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > Not that I think such entities exist... but I don't see how they can > give funding without dealing with a non-profit organization or Red Hat > were to 'offer' specified services for money with respect to Fedora. > In that case some company could then 'pay' Red Hat for say gcc support > in Fedora or something.. but there has to be some entity that the > organizations would have to do 'business' with. The fact that Fedora has a formalized budget now inside the fenceline...is a start. Whether how its setup now, is enough to position Fedora as an entity one can do 'business' with is beyond me. But I think that is exactly the direct we need to continue to head. -jef From poelstra at redhat.com Thu May 15 22:40:59 2008 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 15:40:59 -0700 Subject: Fedora and the world In-Reply-To: <604aa7910805151526w60b0d4alc09daaa92c999ebb@mail.gmail.com> References: <507738ef0805150643r20890dc9m67a3f1c166703406@mail.gmail.com> <1210870660.26278.203.camel@ignacio.lan> <604aa7910805151018n68bd4019nbe462bde0f0f9f43@mail.gmail.com> <507738ef0805151155r2bd5ee57ua89b2efdef2f6072@mail.gmail.com> <20080515152345.1d9faa7b@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <604aa7910805151517i1f219bb0r465705517a3bf909@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090805151523x7e5dff8yeb06575afed8b9dd@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910805151526w60b0d4alc09daaa92c999ebb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <482CBBFB.2000807@redhat.com> Jeff Spaleta said the following on 05/15/2008 03:26 PM Pacific Time: > On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 2:23 PM, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: >> Not that I think such entities exist... but I don't see how they can >> give funding without dealing with a non-profit organization or Red Hat >> were to 'offer' specified services for money with respect to Fedora. >> In that case some company could then 'pay' Red Hat for say gcc support >> in Fedora or something.. but there has to be some entity that the >> organizations would have to do 'business' with. > > The fact that Fedora has a formalized budget now inside the > fenceline...is a start. Whether how its setup now, is enough to > position Fedora as an entity one can do 'business' with is beyond me. > But I think that is exactly the direct we need to continue to head. > Or I wonder if it would be easier for someone that wants to financially help Fedora to sponsor an activity directly that benefits Fedora? For example, if a company or person X wanted to help Fedora they could pay a replicator (or whatever they are called) directly to produce all of the media for Fedora X to be handed out events. This gets Fedora out of having to handle the funds and allows internally allocated funds to then be used for other purposes. Perhaps this would cause other accounting/reporting problems... I don't know. John From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu May 15 23:05:13 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 15:05:13 -0800 Subject: Fedora and the world In-Reply-To: <482CBBFB.2000807@redhat.com> References: <507738ef0805150643r20890dc9m67a3f1c166703406@mail.gmail.com> <1210870660.26278.203.camel@ignacio.lan> <604aa7910805151018n68bd4019nbe462bde0f0f9f43@mail.gmail.com> <507738ef0805151155r2bd5ee57ua89b2efdef2f6072@mail.gmail.com> <20080515152345.1d9faa7b@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <604aa7910805151517i1f219bb0r465705517a3bf909@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090805151523x7e5dff8yeb06575afed8b9dd@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910805151526w60b0d4alc09daaa92c999ebb@mail.gmail.com> <482CBBFB.2000807@redhat.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910805151605n1ed3b2aew354635c6313641b@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 2:40 PM, John Poelstra wrote: > For example, if a company or person X wanted to help Fedora they could pay a > replicator (or whatever they are called) directly to produce all of the > media for Fedora X to be handed out events. This gets Fedora out of having > to handle the funds and allows internally allocated funds to then be used > for other purposes. > > Perhaps this would cause other accounting/reporting problems... I don't > know. I believe we have a FreeMedia project run by community that is self-sufficient and does exactly this sort of thing... or we did. But we could use funding for a lot of different things....for example travel grants to get important community developers to events. Not just Fudcons...but conferences where they can go to their peers in whatever area they work in and talk about Fedora in an effort to get new people using and contributing. An investment in travel funds so high impact people can network with a large group of potential contributors is a sure bet. As a board member, I would absolutely LOVE to be able to put forward a group of...missionaries... hand them a plane ticket and a hotel voucher and send them off into the world to convert the masses..opportunistically. Like when when the Electronics Labs Spin was first released. I was chomping at the bit to get Chitlesh out talking to engineers who use that sort of software. And there's absolutely no reason that Red Hat should be expected to do all of that sort of expensing. Other entities and individuals who grok the benefits of an expanding contributor base could chip in on that. -jef"And as always, I'm more than willing to talk to a sugar-daddy who can help me build a large enough monetary trust to create and sustain a Open Source Developer Retreat in the Alaskan wilderness, where individuals compete for residence terms like artists would do in an artist colony"spaleta From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu May 15 23:56:08 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 15:56:08 -0800 Subject: Let's re-start a discussion about role-based SIGs In-Reply-To: <10e0a9b00805151033u1e8ff4b4t6efa0344522debe3@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910805141503w4ba9452ka3cd94aa53aea71b@mail.gmail.com> <10e0a9b00805151033u1e8ff4b4t6efa0344522debe3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910805151656o14338549w1dfbd3909c3e7146@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 9:33 AM, Jeffrey Tadlock wrote: > I want to be sure I understand the problem trying to be solved before > commenting. Is the problem trying to be solved encouraging and > increasing direct user participation and contributions? And then once > we have that, a method in place to retain our contributors? Yes the underlying goal for me is to structure how we do work so we can more easily recruit and retain contributors. And I think restructuring how we expect our project to interact with users so that users can more easily connect with people with the same software interests is going to be the way to do it. Let me harp on recruiting for a second. So far we've been relying significantly on people with a certain level of pre-existing experience. I think to grow further we must start the process of being able to train a larger pool of inexperienced but enthusiastic people into become effective contributors and taking on some of the workload we know we need to get done day-to-day and release-to-release. And I think we most easily do that by capitalizing on a new person's particular software interests and make room for them inside a work group (a SIG) organized around all the tasks associated with managing the user-experience for a subset of software that matches why they are using Fedora. I want to build a structure that works like this: Users find software they like or need, then they join the community based around that software (the SIG) looking for help or advanced training or just new information about upcoming versions, then they start contributing to that community's effort to push that software forward by responding to a SIGs specific need to fill one of the easily defined roles. Experienced SIG members act as mentors and sponsors for the new contributors. The subproject that supports that role participates in the training of the recruits across the different SIGs. As they get comfortable with that role the new person can choose to become more involved in development of policies and tools as part of the subproject that defines the best practices for that role. If they find out their particular talents aren't suited for that role, they can continue to work inside the SIG where there interests lie, but take on a different role. if there interest grows beyond a specific SIG and wants to take on tasks with Project wide impact, they can then look into participating in one of the support subprojects like infrastructure, or translation. For example, It'll be a lot easier to sucker someone into helping with QA, if we make the QA effort a role that each SIG is encouraged to fill internally from its userbase. Once SIGs establish a user-communication aspect, a particular SIG should have an easier time of asking its users to fill a QA role specifically for software the SIG shepards. Instead of the pain of asking users on a project wide to jump into a project wide QA effort spanning all software that they are unfamiliar with. Looking at things project-wide becomes daunting. But if we set things up in such a way that we can ask users to take on a piece of the responsibility for the relatively small subset of software they care about, through a SIG role, then its going to be a lot easier to get them to take that first bite. The same with documenters, and maintainers and so on and so on. The structure of the role based SIG also gives us the ability to start looking at retainment issues, which we have put exceedingly little thought into. Formalizing the roles should make it easier for people to move around and do new jobs, gaining new skills, when they are getting burned out doing the same thing...but still within the scope of software they are most interested in working with. -jef From mspevack at redhat.com Fri May 16 01:38:21 2008 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 21:38:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora and the world In-Reply-To: <507738ef0805151155r2bd5ee57ua89b2efdef2f6072@mail.gmail.com> References: <507738ef0805150643r20890dc9m67a3f1c166703406@mail.gmail.com> <1210870660.26278.203.camel@ignacio.lan> <604aa7910805151018n68bd4019nbe462bde0f0f9f43@mail.gmail.com> <507738ef0805151155r2bd5ee57ua89b2efdef2f6072@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 May 2008, Jonathan Roberts wrote: >> Oh we are talking about FAS accounts.... not the secret monetary bank >> accounts that I'm not suppose to know about. > > Lol, well I was talking about bank accounts, but if Fedora has no > money of its own then I guess this isn't a problem! All of Red Hat's money is kept in a giant septic tank buried in the current CEO's backyard. Once per quarter I drive over there and remove the gold bullion equivalent to our Fedora budget and bring it to the mint. ;-) From mspevack at redhat.com Fri May 16 01:40:09 2008 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 21:40:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora and the world In-Reply-To: <604aa7910805151517i1f219bb0r465705517a3bf909@mail.gmail.com> References: <507738ef0805150643r20890dc9m67a3f1c166703406@mail.gmail.com> <1210870660.26278.203.camel@ignacio.lan> <604aa7910805151018n68bd4019nbe462bde0f0f9f43@mail.gmail.com> <507738ef0805151155r2bd5ee57ua89b2efdef2f6072@mail.gmail.com> <20080515152345.1d9faa7b@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <604aa7910805151517i1f219bb0r465705517a3bf909@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 May 2008, Jeff Spaleta wrote: >> There was discussion at long time ago about creating a Fedora >> Foundation, however that proved to be not worth the effort. > > I think there is a stronger statement to be made than "not worth the > effort." It's quite possibly impossible to do as a US non-profit when > Red Hat's contributions to the project's actual resource consumption > is tallied given the requirements for non-profit status. And a > separate for-profit status doesn't actually give us much more than > what we have right now, except increased staffing needs to act as a > separate business office. http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-announce-list/2006-April/msg00016.html From mspevack at redhat.com Fri May 16 02:18:41 2008 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 22:18:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora and the world In-Reply-To: <482CBBFB.2000807@redhat.com> References: <507738ef0805150643r20890dc9m67a3f1c166703406@mail.gmail.com> <1210870660.26278.203.camel@ignacio.lan> <604aa7910805151018n68bd4019nbe462bde0f0f9f43@mail.gmail.com> <507738ef0805151155r2bd5ee57ua89b2efdef2f6072@mail.gmail.com> <20080515152345.1d9faa7b@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <604aa7910805151517i1f219bb0r465705517a3bf909@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090805151523x7e5dff8yeb06575afed8b9dd@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910805151526w60b0d4alc09daaa92c999ebb@mail.gmail.com> <482CBBFB.2000807@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 May 2008, John Poelstra wrote: > Or I wonder if it would be easier for someone that wants to > financially help Fedora to sponsor an activity directly that benefits > Fedora? > > For example, if a company or person X wanted to help Fedora they could > pay a replicator (or whatever they are called) directly to produce all > of the media for Fedora X to be handed out events. This gets Fedora > out of having to handle the funds and allows internally allocated > funds to then be used for other purposes. > > Perhaps this would cause other accounting/reporting problems... I > don't know. John, you are definitely right about this. Right now, if someone wants to contribute money to Fedora, the best way that they can do it is to replace a cost that we are about to incur on our behalf. For example, if some organization wanted to pay for the FUDCon Tshirts, we'd just ask them to pay the bill directly for it. Much, much easier than trying to get money into Red Hat, earmarked for Fedora, etc. We're making baby steps progress to fixing all of this. The first has been a the multi-year project of getting Fedora organized internally, with an actual "team", a proper budget (see http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/CommunityArchitecture/Expenses), etc. Next will be the question of "how can someone give money to Red Hat, and guarantee that money is spent on Fedora?" We've had some initial conversations with legal about it, but it's not currently an "A level priority" that is being pursued and tracked weekly. If the Fedora Board would like it to be, it certainly has the ability to request that some combination of me, Greg, and Paul can change our priorities around to make it happen. >From my perspective, having a guaranteed budget over which the Board, FAMSCo, and the Community Architecture team have autonomy has us in pretty good shape. --Max From mspevack at redhat.com Fri May 16 02:19:56 2008 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 22:19:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora and the world In-Reply-To: <604aa7910805151605n1ed3b2aew354635c6313641b@mail.gmail.com> References: <507738ef0805150643r20890dc9m67a3f1c166703406@mail.gmail.com> <1210870660.26278.203.camel@ignacio.lan> <604aa7910805151018n68bd4019nbe462bde0f0f9f43@mail.gmail.com> <507738ef0805151155r2bd5ee57ua89b2efdef2f6072@mail.gmail.com> <20080515152345.1d9faa7b@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <604aa7910805151517i1f219bb0r465705517a3bf909@mail.gmail.com> <80d7e4090805151523x7e5dff8yeb06575afed8b9dd@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910805151526w60b0d4alc09daaa92c999ebb@mail.gmail.com> <482CBBFB.2000807@redhat.com> <604aa7910805151605n1ed3b2aew354635c6313641b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 May 2008, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > I believe we have a FreeMedia project run by community that is > self-sufficient and does exactly this sort of thing... or we did. We do. The Free Media project used to be subsidized by Red Hat, but lately Thomas Chung has been able to get sufficient donations directly to Free Media that we no longer carve him off a portion of our budget each month to make up the shortfall. --Max From stickster at gmail.com Fri May 16 02:43:46 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 22:43:46 -0400 Subject: Fedora and the world In-Reply-To: References: <507738ef0805150643r20890dc9m67a3f1c166703406@mail.gmail.com> <1210870660.26278.203.camel@ignacio.lan> <604aa7910805151018n68bd4019nbe462bde0f0f9f43@mail.gmail.com> <507738ef0805151155r2bd5ee57ua89b2efdef2f6072@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1210905826.4218.37.camel@victoria> On Thu, 2008-05-15 at 21:38 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: > On Thu, 15 May 2008, Jonathan Roberts wrote: > > >> Oh we are talking about FAS accounts.... not the secret monetary bank > >> accounts that I'm not suppose to know about. > > > > Lol, well I was talking about bank accounts, but if Fedora has no > > money of its own then I guess this isn't a problem! > > All of Red Hat's money is kept in a giant septic tank buried in the > current CEO's backyard. Once per quarter I drive over there and remove > the gold bullion equivalent to our Fedora budget and bring it to the > mint. Which reminds me, after champagne and caviar at Mr. Whitehurst's the other afternoon (the Clos du Mesnil was exceptional), I bumped into the pool boy. Or at least I think it was the pool boy... he looked a lot like a certain space tourist.... Hm. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From smooge at gmail.com Fri May 16 02:50:46 2008 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 20:50:46 -0600 Subject: Fedora and the world In-Reply-To: References: <507738ef0805150643r20890dc9m67a3f1c166703406@mail.gmail.com> <1210870660.26278.203.camel@ignacio.lan> <604aa7910805151018n68bd4019nbe462bde0f0f9f43@mail.gmail.com> <507738ef0805151155r2bd5ee57ua89b2efdef2f6072@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <80d7e4090805151950r606155c2v843d22b46e7d29bd@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 7:38 PM, Max Spevack wrote: > On Thu, 15 May 2008, Jonathan Roberts wrote: > >>> Oh we are talking about FAS accounts.... not the secret monetary bank >>> accounts that I'm not suppose to know about. >> >> Lol, well I was talking about bank accounts, but if Fedora has no money of >> its own then I guess this isn't a problem! > > All of Red Hat's money is kept in a giant septic tank buried in the current > CEO's backyard. Once per quarter I drive over there and remove the gold > bullion equivalent to our Fedora budget and bring it to the mint. > Hmmmm well better a septic tank than a hog pond or fish-fry open air sewage pond. Gold bullion indeed. Of course diving in isnt as bad as trying to filter out what is supposed to stay there. Ask peter jones about his first job at RH :). -- Stephen J Smoogen. -- BSD/GNU/Linux How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice" From kanarip at kanarip.com Fri May 16 14:05:15 2008 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 16:05:15 +0200 Subject: Fedora 9 Everything Spin released Message-ID: <482D949B.9080804@kanarip.com> Fedora Unity is proud to announce the release of the Fedora 9 Everything Spin! Go to http://spins.fedoraunity.org/spins to get the bits! The Everything Spin includes everything available at the time of the release of Fedora 9. It is the same, really, it is. Just more. Way, way more! And the more Fedora, the better! The i386 as well as x86_64 Fedora 9 Everything Spin is rather large, yet sized a fashionable 4 DVD's. You can imagine carrying those around as your complete, instant, bootable and installable mirror of everything Fedora has to offer -at the moment Fedora 9 was released. Of course you could just use a USB Harddrive, or even USB thumbdrive (16GB), but that wouldn't make the Everything Spin any more fun now would it? Fedora Unity normally includes a CD version "for those of us that do not have DVD drives", as we use to say in our Re-Spin release announcements, but not this time; This time Fedora Unity includes a 23 (!) CD version of the Everything Spin, *just for kicks* ;-) With Fedora 8, the Everything Spin was just 19 CDs, so there's 4 discs of extra, new, shiny software! You can see how this looks when you're installing from it, here[1]. I'd like to see these discs piled up at every booth showing off the enormous amount of available Free and Open Source Software :P Undoubtfully, some people will give away the CD version of the Everything Spin as a birthday present. Also, it reminds people why it is they need to upgrade their CD-ROM to DVD players ;-) Have fun ;-) Kind regards, Jeroen van Meeuwen -kanarip [1] http://kanarip.fedorapeople.org/Fedora-9-Everything-Spin-CD.png (numbering a little off for Unknown Reasons(TM) - installation completes though) From kwade at redhat.com Fri May 16 15:45:20 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 08:45:20 -0700 Subject: bug triage considered useful? In-Reply-To: <604aa7910805140959v646da135x10e977baf43b7f58@mail.gmail.com> References: <1210777672.26792.1056.camel@beck.corsepiu.local> <20080514153653.GA19222@domsch.com> <604aa7910805140917y776da750pb8fed4af0632fc4b@mail.gmail.com> <1210783366.3170.128.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910805140959v646da135x10e977baf43b7f58@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1210952720.3681.107.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Wed, 2008-05-14 at 08:59 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 8:42 AM, Jesse Keating wrote: > > Could that be moose jerky? > > I could arrange that yes. And luckily since the greendex quiz doesn't > specifically ask about how often you eat moose, you'd get a boost in > your effort to beat Seth's ridiculous greendex score by eating moose > regularly. Actually, my score is the new stretch goal: http://skvidal.wordpress.com/2008/05/09/greenindex/#comment-7564 ... it'd be even higher if they had an option for "Generate green power and introduce it back to the grid." -- Karsten Wade, Sr. Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jeffreyt at fedoraproject.org Sat May 17 02:56:38 2008 From: jeffreyt at fedoraproject.org (Jeffrey Tadlock) Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 22:56:38 -0400 Subject: Let's re-start a discussion about role-based SIGs In-Reply-To: <604aa7910805151656o14338549w1dfbd3909c3e7146@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910805141503w4ba9452ka3cd94aa53aea71b@mail.gmail.com> <10e0a9b00805151033u1e8ff4b4t6efa0344522debe3@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910805151656o14338549w1dfbd3909c3e7146@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <10e0a9b00805161956g2d6ce8b2sbecde4e9b4e9eb02@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 7:56 PM, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > Yes the underlying goal for me is to structure how we do work so we > can more easily recruit and retain contributors. And I think > restructuring how we expect our project to interact with users so that > users can more easily connect with people with the same software > interests is going to be the way to do it. > > For example, It'll be a lot easier to sucker someone into helping with > QA, if we make the QA effort a role that each SIG is encouraged to > fill internally from its userbase. Once SIGs establish a > user-communication aspect, a particular SIG should have an easier time > of asking its users to fill a QA role specifically for software the > SIG shepards. Instead of the pain of asking users on a project wide > to jump into a project wide QA effort spanning all software that they > are unfamiliar with. Looking at things project-wide becomes daunting. > But if we set things up in such a way that we can ask users to take > on a piece of the responsibility for the relatively small subset of > software they care about, through a SIG role, then its going to be a > lot easier to get them to take that first bite. The same with > documenters, and maintainers and so on and so on. Okay, I think your plan is starting to become more clear to me. Essentially break things down into bite sized pieces via the SIGs. Like you said it is less intimidating to join the Q&A efforts for software that you know about and understand, than to possibly join at the greater project level. I think my concern is seeing things become too wrapped up in the processes and roles and potentially adding layers of complexity. In some ways role based SIGs seem quite rigid. Maybe they wouldn't be in practice. > The structure of the role based SIG also gives us the ability to start > looking at retainment issues, which we have put exceedingly little > thought into. Formalizing the roles should make it easier for people > to move around and do new jobs, gaining new skills, when they are > getting burned out doing the same thing...but still within the scope > of software they are most interested in working with. I am wondering if renewed work with the Fedora Mentors project could accomplish some of the same goals in both recruitment and retainment? The idea here being to get each SIG to have a member be a Fedora Mentor as well. The mentor can help new people get acclimated to the project and help with retainment of contributors as well. Then, we target the Fedora Mentor mailing list with the message that its fine to get people to just do Q&A at the SIG level to help get people used to it. They can be guidance, but without the formality. I do think attention needs paid to recruitment and retention issues for contributors. I just don't want to see us get too burdened down with processes and such to accomplish the goals. Thanks! Jeffrey From jspaleta at gmail.com Sat May 17 04:32:35 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 20:32:35 -0800 Subject: Let's re-start a discussion about role-based SIGs In-Reply-To: <10e0a9b00805161956g2d6ce8b2sbecde4e9b4e9eb02@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910805141503w4ba9452ka3cd94aa53aea71b@mail.gmail.com> <10e0a9b00805151033u1e8ff4b4t6efa0344522debe3@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910805151656o14338549w1dfbd3909c3e7146@mail.gmail.com> <10e0a9b00805161956g2d6ce8b2sbecde4e9b4e9eb02@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910805162132m51bb5f14mc48d886fa6bbceee@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 6:56 PM, Jeffrey Tadlock wrote: > I am wondering if renewed work with the Fedora Mentors project could > accomplish some of the same goals in both recruitment and retainment? > The idea here being to get each SIG to have a member be a Fedora > Mentor as well. The mentor can help new people get acclimated to the > project and help with retainment of contributors as well. My strawman cartoon includes mentors! and sponsors! > I do think attention needs paid to recruitment and retention issues > for contributors. I just don't want to see us get too burdened down > with processes and such to accomplish the goals. The processes are actually key. Because its the processes that we will rely on over time. If we aren't building processes which reinforce recruitment, then recruitment isn't going to happen in a serious way. -jef From jspaleta at gmail.com Mon May 19 16:59:07 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 08:59:07 -0800 Subject: new list of names for fedora grid project In-Reply-To: <4829D436.1000703@redhat.com> References: <4829D436.1000703@redhat.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910805190959j92bd6b2m9d9859e1abe09d57@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 9:47 AM, Bryan Che wrote: > Tier 1 > 1. Powernap +1 > Tier 2 > 1. PowerFarm +1 > Tier 3 > 1. Siesta +1 > 3. Swarm -10 on swarm, torrent already uses the word as a concept. I would avoid reusing it as name. -jef From stickster at gmail.com Mon May 19 19:51:55 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 15:51:55 -0400 Subject: Let's re-start a discussion about role-based SIGs In-Reply-To: <604aa7910805162132m51bb5f14mc48d886fa6bbceee@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910805141503w4ba9452ka3cd94aa53aea71b@mail.gmail.com> <10e0a9b00805151033u1e8ff4b4t6efa0344522debe3@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910805151656o14338549w1dfbd3909c3e7146@mail.gmail.com> <10e0a9b00805161956g2d6ce8b2sbecde4e9b4e9eb02@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910805162132m51bb5f14mc48d886fa6bbceee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1211226715.3509.126.camel@victoria> On Fri, 2008-05-16 at 20:32 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 6:56 PM, Jeffrey Tadlock > wrote: > > I am wondering if renewed work with the Fedora Mentors project could > > accomplish some of the same goals in both recruitment and retainment? > > The idea here being to get each SIG to have a member be a Fedora > > Mentor as well. The mentor can help new people get acclimated to the > > project and help with retainment of contributors as well. > My strawman cartoon includes mentors! and sponsors! > > > I do think attention needs paid to recruitment and retention issues > > for contributors. I just don't want to see us get too burdened down > > with processes and such to accomplish the goals. > > The processes are actually key. Because its the processes that we will > rely on over time. If we aren't building processes which reinforce > recruitment, then recruitment isn't going to happen in a serious way. Right, as in every other subproject, the key is finding enough process to make sure we can scale this effort meaningfully, without creating so much that people are bogged down to the point they can't do the work. Interestingly, I think the recent reorientation of the Docs Project[1] fits neatly into the role-based organization. = = = [1] http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2008-May/msg00032.html -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Mon May 19 20:11:45 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 12:11:45 -0800 Subject: Let's re-start a discussion about role-based SIGs In-Reply-To: <1211226715.3509.126.camel@victoria> References: <604aa7910805141503w4ba9452ka3cd94aa53aea71b@mail.gmail.com> <10e0a9b00805151033u1e8ff4b4t6efa0344522debe3@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910805151656o14338549w1dfbd3909c3e7146@mail.gmail.com> <10e0a9b00805161956g2d6ce8b2sbecde4e9b4e9eb02@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910805162132m51bb5f14mc48d886fa6bbceee@mail.gmail.com> <1211226715.3509.126.camel@victoria> Message-ID: <604aa7910805191311n36a1054dv7e1c3098c1c7f8e1@mail.gmail.com> > Right, as in every other subproject, the key is finding enough process > to make sure we can scale this effort meaningfully, without creating so > much that people are bogged down to the point they can't do the work. > Interestingly, I think the recent reorientation of the Docs Project[1] > fits neatly into the role-based organization. I wish I could make it to fudcon to have a pizza and beer session with SIG and subproject reps concerning this. There really isn't a lot here in terms of mandates or policies. I don't even need all of projects to get on board initially for this to be profitable. I just need enough people to be willing to try to work this way. And if its beneficial then I expect other groups to try the role based idea. -jef From stickster at gmail.com Tue May 20 11:35:45 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 07:35:45 -0400 Subject: new list of names for fedora grid project In-Reply-To: <4829D436.1000703@redhat.com> References: <4829D436.1000703@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1211283345.17352.7.camel@victoria> On Tue, 2008-05-13 at 13:47 -0400, Bryan Che wrote: > Hi, thanks to John Adams for generating an updated list of potential > names for the Fedora grid project. John's recommendations, in order, are: > > Tier 1 > 1. Powernap +1 > Tier 2 > 1. PowerFarm +1 > Tier 3 > 1. Siesta +1 -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Wed May 21 17:27:23 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 10:27:23 -0700 Subject: Let's re-start a discussion about role-based SIGs In-Reply-To: <604aa7910805191311n36a1054dv7e1c3098c1c7f8e1@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910805141503w4ba9452ka3cd94aa53aea71b@mail.gmail.com> <10e0a9b00805151033u1e8ff4b4t6efa0344522debe3@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910805151656o14338549w1dfbd3909c3e7146@mail.gmail.com> <10e0a9b00805161956g2d6ce8b2sbecde4e9b4e9eb02@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910805162132m51bb5f14mc48d886fa6bbceee@mail.gmail.com> <1211226715.3509.126.camel@victoria> <604aa7910805191311n36a1054dv7e1c3098c1c7f8e1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1211390843.18933.453.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Mon, 2008-05-19 at 12:11 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > Right, as in every other subproject, the key is finding enough process > > to make sure we can scale this effort meaningfully, without creating so > > much that people are bogged down to the point they can't do the work. > > Interestingly, I think the recent reorientation of the Docs Project[1] > > fits neatly into the role-based organization. > > I wish I could make it to fudcon to have a pizza and beer session with > SIG and subproject reps concerning this. There really isn't a lot > here in terms of mandates or policies. I don't even need all of > projects to get on board initially for this to be profitable. I just > need enough people to be willing to try to work this way. And if its > beneficial then I expect other groups to try the role based idea. My prediction -- you'll be surprised how many people will like the idea. As much as we'd love to see ya at FUDCon, I don't think this is a requirement for the role-based SIGs idea to move ahead. People are always interested in making less mess and more grokking from the chaos. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Sr. Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed May 21 21:57:07 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 21:57:07 +0000 Subject: Let's re-start a discussion about role-based SIGs In-Reply-To: <1211390843.18933.453.camel@calliope.phig.org> References: <604aa7910805141503w4ba9452ka3cd94aa53aea71b@mail.gmail.com> <10e0a9b00805151033u1e8ff4b4t6efa0344522debe3@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910805151656o14338549w1dfbd3909c3e7146@mail.gmail.com> <10e0a9b00805161956g2d6ce8b2sbecde4e9b4e9eb02@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910805162132m51bb5f14mc48d886fa6bbceee@mail.gmail.com> <1211226715.3509.126.camel@victoria> <604aa7910805191311n36a1054dv7e1c3098c1c7f8e1@mail.gmail.com> <1211390843.18933.453.camel@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <1211407027.1380.209.camel@victoria> On Wed, 2008-05-21 at 10:27 -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > On Mon, 2008-05-19 at 12:11 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > > Right, as in every other subproject, the key is finding enough process > > > to make sure we can scale this effort meaningfully, without creating so > > > much that people are bogged down to the point they can't do the work. > > > Interestingly, I think the recent reorientation of the Docs Project[1] > > > fits neatly into the role-based organization. > > > > I wish I could make it to fudcon to have a pizza and beer session with > > SIG and subproject reps concerning this. There really isn't a lot > > here in terms of mandates or policies. I don't even need all of > > projects to get on board initially for this to be profitable. I just > > need enough people to be willing to try to work this way. And if its > > beneficial then I expect other groups to try the role based idea. > > My prediction -- you'll be surprised how many people will like the idea. > > As much as we'd love to see ya at FUDCon, I don't think this is a > requirement for the role-based SIGs idea to move ahead. > > People are always interested in making less mess and more grokking from > the chaos. I'd like to think I'm helping in my own way to bring Jef's idea one step closer to reality, by hooking up ("embedding") a few Docs people with Will Woods and Jon Stanley for QA and Triage process documentation. These folks, who are somewhat newer contributors, are in a GREAT position to accurately judge how much needs to be documented from the perspective of a new QA contributor. ("How do I do X?" --> becomes a note to add more documentation on subject X.) I intend to keep a watchful eye on this and help where I can as well. In this particular case, I know that building this community out is important to all the principals, and now they have some extra people resources with which to do it. I'd also like to get some of the Seneca students involved who are coming into Fedora. I would bet software QA/QE in a volunteer community would make a tasty thesis for some intrepid student out there.... -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jonrob at fedoraproject.org Thu May 22 21:38:57 2008 From: jonrob at fedoraproject.org (Jonathan Roberts) Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 22:38:57 +0100 Subject: Fedora websites and licensing Message-ID: <507738ef0805221438i2970b2d8t2e176aaf4a65c7aa@mail.gmail.com> Hey, At this week's websites meeting, we discussed the issue of what license our website code and content comes under. You can see the discussion from 16:58 on the log at https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-websites-list/2008-May/msg00268.html Basically, we'd like to know what license the website is currently under, whether this applies to both content and code, and finally, are we happy with this license or is there a different license that we'd like to use and implement? Hope this is the right location for this post. Best, Jon From tcallawa at redhat.com Thu May 22 21:52:02 2008 From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom "spot" Callaway) Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 17:52:02 -0400 Subject: Fedora websites and licensing In-Reply-To: <507738ef0805221438i2970b2d8t2e176aaf4a65c7aa@mail.gmail.com> References: <507738ef0805221438i2970b2d8t2e176aaf4a65c7aa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1211493122.24692.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2008-05-22 at 22:38 +0100, Jonathan Roberts wrote: > Hey, > > At this week's websites meeting, we discussed the issue of what > license our website code and content comes under. You can see the > discussion from 16:58 on the log at > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-websites-list/2008-May/msg00268.html > > Basically, we'd like to know what license the website is currently > under, whether this applies to both content and code, and finally, are > we happy with this license or is there a different license that we'd > like to use and implement? I know everything on the wiki is under the http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal/Licenses/OPL. I'm 95% sure that all of the non-wiki content on the fedoraproject.org host is as well. I can't speak to any sort of "happiness" around this situation. ~spot From jonrob at fedoraproject.org Thu May 22 21:58:22 2008 From: jonrob at fedoraproject.org (Jonathan Roberts) Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 22:58:22 +0100 Subject: Fedora websites and licensing In-Reply-To: <1211493122.24692.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <507738ef0805221438i2970b2d8t2e176aaf4a65c7aa@mail.gmail.com> <1211493122.24692.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <507738ef0805221458o3262b659n21db000c464fd81@mail.gmail.com> 2008/5/22 Tom spot Callaway : > On Thu, 2008-05-22 at 22:38 +0100, Jonathan Roberts wrote: >> Hey, >> >> At this week's websites meeting, we discussed the issue of what >> license our website code and content comes under. You can see the >> discussion from 16:58 on the log at >> https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-websites-list/2008-May/msg00268.html >> >> Basically, we'd like to know what license the website is currently >> under, whether this applies to both content and code, and finally, are >> we happy with this license or is there a different license that we'd >> like to use and implement? > > I know everything on the wiki is under the > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal/Licenses/OPL. I'm 95% sure that all > of the non-wiki content on the fedoraproject.org host is as well. > > I can't speak to any sort of "happiness" around this situation. Ah, I believe you were actually recommended as someone who might be able to find out (or already know) and clearly you did! You were also recommended as someone who might be able to get us a recommendation about what might be best for the websites purposes, if we ask nicely :) I think RH legal might also have come up in the conversation... what do you think? Or is there a better direction for us to head in? Best, Jon From a.badger at gmail.com Thu May 22 22:10:03 2008 From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 15:10:03 -0700 Subject: Fedora websites and licensing In-Reply-To: <507738ef0805221458o3262b659n21db000c464fd81@mail.gmail.com> References: <507738ef0805221438i2970b2d8t2e176aaf4a65c7aa@mail.gmail.com> <1211493122.24692.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> <507738ef0805221458o3262b659n21db000c464fd81@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4835EF3B.1020701@gmail.com> Jonathan Roberts wrote: > 2008/5/22 Tom spot Callaway : >> I know everything on the wiki is under the >> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal/Licenses/OPL. I'm 95% sure that all >> of the non-wiki content on the fedoraproject.org host is as well. >> >> I can't speak to any sort of "happiness" around this situation. > > Ah, I believe you were actually recommended as someone who might be > able to find out (or already know) and clearly you did! > > You were also recommended as someone who might be able to get us a > recommendation about what might be best for the websites purposes, if > we ask nicely :) I think RH legal might also have come up in the > conversation... what do you think? Or is there a better direction for > us to head in? > IIRC, part of the question was what license the "code" involved in the website fell under. That is does the css and templates for the websites also fall under the OPL? -Toshio From kwade at redhat.com Fri May 23 02:09:34 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 19:09:34 -0700 Subject: Fedora websites and licensing In-Reply-To: <4835EF3B.1020701@gmail.com> References: <507738ef0805221438i2970b2d8t2e176aaf4a65c7aa@mail.gmail.com> <1211493122.24692.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> <507738ef0805221458o3262b659n21db000c464fd81@mail.gmail.com> <4835EF3B.1020701@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1211508574.3443.19.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Thu, 2008-05-22 at 15:10 -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > > > IIRC, part of the question was what license the "code" involved in the > website fell under. That is does the css and templates for the websites > also fall under the OPL? Exactly the point of this thread. The *content* is under the OPL. The markup around just the content is probably covered by that OPL. But the rest of the site (CSS, Python, TurboGears, HTML, etc.) has not been licensed. It is, however, a contribution, so is covered at a minimum by the CLA. Do we have the right to license all those contributions at this point? That is, without the permission of the contributors? - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Sr. Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Fri May 23 15:16:09 2008 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 11:16:09 -0400 Subject: Fedora websites and licensing In-Reply-To: <1211508574.3443.19.camel@calliope.phig.org> References: <507738ef0805221438i2970b2d8t2e176aaf4a65c7aa@mail.gmail.com> <1211493122.24692.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> <507738ef0805221458o3262b659n21db000c464fd81@mail.gmail.com> <4835EF3B.1020701@gmail.com> <1211508574.3443.19.camel@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <1211555769.5707.4.camel@victoria> On Thu, 2008-05-22 at 19:09 -0700, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > On Thu, 2008-05-22 at 15:10 -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > > > > > IIRC, part of the question was what license the "code" involved in the > > website fell under. That is does the css and templates for the websites > > also fall under the OPL? > > Exactly the point of this thread. The *content* is under the OPL. The > markup around just the content is probably covered by that OPL. But the > rest of the site (CSS, Python, TurboGears, HTML, etc.) has not been > licensed. It is, however, a contribution, so is covered at a minimum by > the CLA. > > Do we have the right to license all those contributions at this point? > That is, without the permission of the contributors? Before we worry about that question, do we still have access to all the contributors in question, and can we get them to agree to an appropriate license? The OPL may be poorly suited to code, but certainly we should be able to get people to agree to something functional like the GPLv2+. And this should serve as a reminder that when originating any sort of code it's a good idea to declare a license for it! ;-) -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From a.badger at gmail.com Fri May 23 17:29:12 2008 From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 10:29:12 -0700 Subject: Fedora websites and licensing In-Reply-To: <1211508574.3443.19.camel@calliope.phig.org> References: <507738ef0805221438i2970b2d8t2e176aaf4a65c7aa@mail.gmail.com> <1211493122.24692.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> <507738ef0805221458o3262b659n21db000c464fd81@mail.gmail.com> <4835EF3B.1020701@gmail.com> <1211508574.3443.19.camel@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <4836FEE8.9070409@gmail.com> Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > On Thu, 2008-05-22 at 15:10 -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: >> IIRC, part of the question was what license the "code" involved in the >> website fell under. That is does the css and templates for the websites >> also fall under the OPL? > > Exactly the point of this thread. The *content* is under the OPL. The > markup around just the content is probably covered by that OPL. But the > rest of the site (CSS, Python, TurboGears, HTML, etc.) has not been > licensed. It is, however, a contribution, so is covered at a minimum by > the CLA. > TurboGears apps are all licensed although not all of them have the license information in all the source files: Source Headers: GPLv2: FAS2 PackageDB Bodhi GPLv2+: smolt: client One License File for the Project: MIT/X11: Mirrormanager[1]_ GPL+: smolt: smoon (server)[2]_ Transifex [1]_: Helper script under GPLv2 [2]_: smolt client and server are hosted together in the same tarball and repository so the fact that the client has a header explicitly listing GPLv2+ might make the server GPLv2+ as well. The smolt authors would probably be willing to clarify this in any case. -Toshio From kwade at redhat.com Fri May 23 18:52:04 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 11:52:04 -0700 Subject: Fedora websites and licensing In-Reply-To: <4836FEE8.9070409@gmail.com> References: <507738ef0805221438i2970b2d8t2e176aaf4a65c7aa@mail.gmail.com> <1211493122.24692.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> <507738ef0805221458o3262b659n21db000c464fd81@mail.gmail.com> <4835EF3B.1020701@gmail.com> <1211508574.3443.19.camel@calliope.phig.org> <4836FEE8.9070409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1211568724.3443.66.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Fri, 2008-05-23 at 10:29 -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > > On Thu, 2008-05-22 at 15:10 -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > >> IIRC, part of the question was what license the "code" involved in the > >> website fell under. That is does the css and templates for the websites > >> also fall under the OPL? > > > > Exactly the point of this thread. The *content* is under the OPL. The > > markup around just the content is probably covered by that OPL. But the > > rest of the site (CSS, Python, TurboGears, HTML, etc.) has not been > > licensed. It is, however, a contribution, so is covered at a minimum by > > the CLA. > > > TurboGears apps are all licensed although not all of them have the > license information in all the source files: Thankfully each of these projects did as Paul said, get the licensing straight from the start. Figuring this out is going to be a great geek research project: * Sort through commits to /cvs/fedora and the new fedorahosted.org git space to find out all committers * Look through f-websites-l for precedent in terms of licensing; was this ever discussed and settled? While the original sites were all (C) Red Hat, Inc., this new stuff has multiple copyright owners, and is much more pervasive than fedora.redhat.com was. Ultimately, we're protected by the CLA in terms of usage, but it makes it hard to make our parts and pieces into an upstream others can consume and contribute to. No matter the pain, it is probably worth it to do the research and get agreements from all contributors. - Karsten > Source Headers: > GPLv2: > FAS2 > PackageDB > Bodhi > GPLv2+: > smolt: client > > One License File for the Project: > MIT/X11: > Mirrormanager[1]_ > GPL+: > smolt: smoon (server)[2]_ > Transifex > > [1]_: Helper script under GPLv2 > [2]_: smolt client and server are hosted together in the same tarball > and repository so the fact that the client has a header explicitly > listing GPLv2+ might make the server GPLv2+ as well. The smolt authors > would probably be willing to clarify this in any case. > > -Toshio > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board -- Karsten Wade, Sr. Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mmcgrath at redhat.com Fri May 23 19:51:43 2008 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 14:51:43 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Fedora websites and licensing In-Reply-To: <1211568724.3443.66.camel@calliope.phig.org> References: <507738ef0805221438i2970b2d8t2e176aaf4a65c7aa@mail.gmail.com> <1211493122.24692.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> <507738ef0805221458o3262b659n21db000c464fd81@mail.gmail.com> <4835EF3B.1020701@gmail.com> <1211508574.3443.19.camel@calliope.phig.org> <4836FEE8.9070409@gmail.com> <1211568724.3443.66.camel@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 May 2008, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > > On Fri, 2008-05-23 at 10:29 -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > > Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > > > On Thu, 2008-05-22 at 15:10 -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > > >> IIRC, part of the question was what license the "code" involved in the > > >> website fell under. That is does the css and templates for the websites > > >> also fall under the OPL? > > > > > > Exactly the point of this thread. The *content* is under the OPL. The > > > markup around just the content is probably covered by that OPL. But the > > > rest of the site (CSS, Python, TurboGears, HTML, etc.) has not been > > > licensed. It is, however, a contribution, so is covered at a minimum by > > > the CLA. > > > > > TurboGears apps are all licensed although not all of them have the > > license information in all the source files: > > Thankfully each of these projects did as Paul said, get the licensing > straight from the start. > > Figuring this out is going to be a great geek research project: > > * Sort through commits to /cvs/fedora and the new fedorahosted.org git > space to find out all committers > > * Look through f-websites-l for precedent in terms of licensing; was > this ever discussed and settled? > > While the original sites were all (C) Red Hat, Inc., this new stuff has > multiple copyright owners, and is much more pervasive than > fedora.redhat.com was. > > Ultimately, we're protected by the CLA in terms of usage, but it makes > it hard to make our parts and pieces into an upstream others can consume > and contribute to. No matter the pain, it is probably worth it to do > the research and get agreements from all contributors. > Doesn't the CLA allow us to re-license contributions that came in from start to finish by people who have signed the CLA? -Mike From kwade at redhat.com Mon May 26 19:56:54 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 12:56:54 -0700 Subject: Fedora websites and licensing In-Reply-To: References: <507738ef0805221438i2970b2d8t2e176aaf4a65c7aa@mail.gmail.com> <1211493122.24692.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> <507738ef0805221458o3262b659n21db000c464fd81@mail.gmail.com> <4835EF3B.1020701@gmail.com> <1211508574.3443.19.camel@calliope.phig.org> <4836FEE8.9070409@gmail.com> <1211568724.3443.66.camel@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <1211831815.3594.76.camel@calliope.phig.org> On Fri, 2008-05-23 at 14:51 -0500, Mike McGrath wrote: > Doesn't the CLA allow us to re-license contributions that came in from > start to finish by people who have signed the CLA? I'm fairly certain only the copyright holder can license and re-license. The CLA definitely does not assign copyright, only copyright license. Now, the copyright license _could_ grant rights to re-license, but this one doesn't AFAIK. AFAICT, the CLA gives us the rights to continue using, modifying, and distributing the various contributions to the Websites codebase. But if we want to license it so it is clear for others down the road, we'll likely need to approach all copyright holders to get permission. We had to do that when we moved documentation to the OPL from the GNU FDL. We had to drop parts of one (defunct) guide because the author did not agree to the re-licensing. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Sr. Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From smooge at gmail.com Mon May 26 20:55:39 2008 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 14:55:39 -0600 Subject: Fedora websites and licensing In-Reply-To: <1211831815.3594.76.camel@calliope.phig.org> References: <507738ef0805221438i2970b2d8t2e176aaf4a65c7aa@mail.gmail.com> <1211493122.24692.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> <507738ef0805221458o3262b659n21db000c464fd81@mail.gmail.com> <4835EF3B.1020701@gmail.com> <1211508574.3443.19.camel@calliope.phig.org> <4836FEE8.9070409@gmail.com> <1211568724.3443.66.camel@calliope.phig.org> <1211831815.3594.76.camel@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <80d7e4090805261355r243f6807w560a67f7e4cc9199@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, May 26, 2008 at 1:56 PM, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote: > > On Fri, 2008-05-23 at 14:51 -0500, Mike McGrath wrote: >> Doesn't the CLA allow us to re-license contributions that came in from >> start to finish by people who have signed the CLA? > > I'm fairly certain only the copyright holder can license and re-license. > The CLA definitely does not assign copyright, only copyright license. > Now, the copyright license _could_ grant rights to re-license, but this > one doesn't AFAIK. > Correct. Only the owner can relicense or allow others to relicense... one of the reasons for the old FSF sign over all your rights to us. > AFAICT, the CLA gives us the rights to continue using, modifying, and > distributing the various contributions to the Websites codebase. But if > we want to license it so it is clear for others down the road, we'll > likely need to approach all copyright holders to get permission. We had > to do that when we moved documentation to the OPL from the GNU FDL. We > had to drop parts of one (defunct) guide because the author did not > agree to the re-licensing. > The second way is to rewrite what was written. -- Stephen J Smoogen. -- BSD/GNU/Linux How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice" From bche at redhat.com Tue May 27 21:07:48 2008 From: bche at redhat.com (Bryan Che) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 17:07:48 -0400 Subject: new list of names for fedora grid project In-Reply-To: <4829D436.1000703@redhat.com> References: <4829D436.1000703@redhat.com> Message-ID: <483C7824.8010301@redhat.com> Hi, after getting updated votes and doing a trademark search, it appears that "Fedora Nightlife" is the new name for our community grid project. I'll start getting the infrastructure (mailing lists, web pages) setup for this. Bryan Bryan Che wrote: > Hi, thanks to John Adams for generating an updated list of potential > names for the Fedora grid project. John's recommendations, in order, are: > > Tier 1 > 1. Powernap > 2. Nightlife > 3. Awaken > > Tier 2 > 1. PowerFarm > 2. Think Tank > 3. Slumber > > Tier 3 > 1. Siesta > 2. Underground > 3. Swarm > > Attached is his full list. > > Please reply by Friday 5/16 with +1/0/-1 votes on names, and I'll take > the updated candidates to legal review afterwards. > > Bryan > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue May 27 22:47:13 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 14:47:13 -0800 Subject: new list of names for fedora grid project In-Reply-To: <483C7824.8010301@redhat.com> References: <4829D436.1000703@redhat.com> <483C7824.8010301@redhat.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910805271547s355f1e6n953db0ff1a0e734c@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 1:07 PM, Bryan Che wrote: > Hi, after getting updated votes and doing a trademark search, it appears > that "Fedora Nightlife" is the new name for our community grid project. > I'll start getting the infrastructure (mailing lists, web pages) setup for > this. Will the lists be wide enough to be able to use them for HPC issues generally? I think the grid project is going to be an opening for a discussion to get stakeholders talking about a fully open HPC stack framework. I just need to know if the grid discussion lists will be wide enough to encompass that. If it is, I can start driving external HPC people towards the grid lists. -jef From bche at redhat.com Wed May 28 14:26:35 2008 From: bche at redhat.com (Bryan Che) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 10:26:35 -0400 Subject: new list of names for fedora grid project In-Reply-To: <604aa7910805271547s355f1e6n953db0ff1a0e734c@mail.gmail.com> References: <4829D436.1000703@redhat.com> <483C7824.8010301@redhat.com> <604aa7910805271547s355f1e6n953db0ff1a0e734c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <483D6B9B.1030102@redhat.com> I'd welcome HPC discussions on those lists--it would be good for people involved with the project to see what people focused on HPC want. I've created the mailing lists: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-nightlife-list https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-nightlife-devel-list Bryan Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 1:07 PM, Bryan Che wrote: >> Hi, after getting updated votes and doing a trademark search, it appears >> that "Fedora Nightlife" is the new name for our community grid project. >> I'll start getting the infrastructure (mailing lists, web pages) setup for >> this. > > Will the lists be wide enough to be able to use them for HPC issues generally? > I think the grid project is going to be an opening for a discussion to > get stakeholders talking about a fully open HPC stack framework. I > just need to know if the grid discussion lists will be wide enough to > encompass that. If it is, I can start driving external HPC people > towards the grid lists. > > -jef > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board From jspaleta at gmail.com Wed May 28 14:41:13 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 06:41:13 -0800 Subject: new list of names for fedora grid project In-Reply-To: <483D6B9B.1030102@redhat.com> References: <4829D436.1000703@redhat.com> <483C7824.8010301@redhat.com> <604aa7910805271547s355f1e6n953db0ff1a0e734c@mail.gmail.com> <483D6B9B.1030102@redhat.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910805280741r6078732aq54bf6ed44b6b6daa@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 6:26 AM, Bryan Che wrote: > I'd welcome HPC discussions on those lists--it would be good for people > involved with the project to see what people focused on HPC want. > > I've created the mailing lists: > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-nightlife-list > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-nightlife-devel-list Great. It would probably be a good idea if you dropped in an introduction post that communicated the essential direction of what your are trying to achieve with nightlife. -jef From bche at redhat.com Wed May 28 15:56:03 2008 From: bche at redhat.com (Bryan Che) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 11:56:03 -0400 Subject: new list of names for fedora grid project In-Reply-To: <604aa7910805280741r6078732aq54bf6ed44b6b6daa@mail.gmail.com> References: <4829D436.1000703@redhat.com> <483C7824.8010301@redhat.com> <604aa7910805271547s355f1e6n953db0ff1a0e734c@mail.gmail.com> <483D6B9B.1030102@redhat.com> <604aa7910805280741r6078732aq54bf6ed44b6b6daa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <483D8093.5010404@redhat.com> Done. Thanks, Bryan Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 6:26 AM, Bryan Che wrote: >> I'd welcome HPC discussions on those lists--it would be good for people >> involved with the project to see what people focused on HPC want. >> >> I've created the mailing lists: >> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-nightlife-list >> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-nightlife-devel-list > > Great. > > It would probably be a good idea if you dropped in an introduction > post that communicated the essential direction of what your are trying > to achieve with nightlife. > > > -jef > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board From jkeating at redhat.com Thu May 29 19:55:37 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 15:55:37 -0400 Subject: I am running for Fedora Board Message-ID: <1212090937.16130.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> I intend to run for Fedora Board Election, primarily on the platform of inter-project relationship management. As our projects gains more and more contributors and continues to improve our infrastructure it will become more compelling for our project to interact with other projects at a contributor and infrastructure level. Case in point JPackage. There are other cases of course, and I hope to grow our relationships with these other projects and further the spirit of Open Source through collaboration. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jkeating at redhat.com Fri May 30 13:41:12 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 09:41:12 -0400 Subject: Werewolf -> Sulphur -> ? Sulphur is a , is a In-Reply-To: <20080522065724.1788e577@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> References: <20080522065724.1788e577@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: <1212154872.16130.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2008-05-22 at 06:57 -0500, Josh Boyer wrote: > I will be collecting suggestions for 1 week, so the cutoff for names > is: > > May 29, 2008 > > Suggestions will be run through the legal queue and an election will > happen for Fedora contributors to pick the next Fedora name. A little added twist here. I'd like to give the Fedora Board a chance at culling the list a little bit before sending on to Legal. There were a number of names that made it through the "is a" test and Legal that might not have been the best ideas for naming a release. Add to that the fact that Red Hat has used outside Legal to do the name clearance the last few times and that is a measurable cost both in time and money. The more names we ask to clear the more expensive and longer the delay will be before we have a set to vote upon. So I am asking the Fedora Board to review the list of names that Josh has collected and remove any they deem not acceptable as a Fedora release name before handing it to Legal. (Note, I haven't yet directly talked to the board about this, so I'm just assuming that they'll be on... board... with this.) -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From matt at domsch.com Fri May 30 13:56:34 2008 From: matt at domsch.com (Matt Domsch) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 08:56:34 -0500 Subject: Werewolf -> Sulphur -> ? Sulphur is a , is a In-Reply-To: <1212154872.16130.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20080522065724.1788e577@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <1212154872.16130.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20080530135634.GC11236@domsch.com> On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 09:41:12AM -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Thu, 2008-05-22 at 06:57 -0500, Josh Boyer wrote: > > I will be collecting suggestions for 1 week, so the cutoff for names > > is: > > > > May 29, 2008 > > > > Suggestions will be run through the legal queue and an election will > > happen for Fedora contributors to pick the next Fedora name. > > A little added twist here. I'd like to give the Fedora Board a chance > at culling the list a little bit before sending on to Legal. There were > a number of names that made it through the "is a" test and Legal that > might not have been the best ideas for naming a release. Add to that > the fact that Red Hat has used outside Legal to do the name clearance > the last few times and that is a measurable cost both in time and money. > The more names we ask to clear the more expensive and longer the delay > will be before we have a set to vote upon. So I am asking the Fedora > Board to review the list of names that Josh has collected and remove any > they deem not acceptable as a Fedora release name before handing it to > Legal. > > (Note, I haven't yet directly talked to the board about this, so I'm > just assuming that they'll be on... board... with this.) Seems a very reasonable request. The Board doesn't want to limit people's brainstorming, but I can see value in culling the list that's sent out for trademark research. From jwboyer at gmail.com Fri May 30 14:09:35 2008 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 09:09:35 -0500 Subject: Werewolf -> Sulphur -> ? Sulphur is a , is a In-Reply-To: <20080530135634.GC11236@domsch.com> References: <20080522065724.1788e577@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <1212154872.16130.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20080530135634.GC11236@domsch.com> Message-ID: <20080530090935.1878ca68@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> On Fri, 30 May 2008 08:56:34 -0500 Matt Domsch wrote: > > A little added twist here. I'd like to give the Fedora Board a chance > > at culling the list a little bit before sending on to Legal. There were > > a number of names that made it through the "is a" test and Legal that > > might not have been the best ideas for naming a release. Add to that > > the fact that Red Hat has used outside Legal to do the name clearance > > the last few times and that is a measurable cost both in time and money. > > The more names we ask to clear the more expensive and longer the delay > > will be before we have a set to vote upon. So I am asking the Fedora > > Board to review the list of names that Josh has collected and remove any > > they deem not acceptable as a Fedora release name before handing it to > > Legal. > > > > (Note, I haven't yet directly talked to the board about this, so I'm > > just assuming that they'll be on... board... with this.) > > Seems a very reasonable request. The Board doesn't want to limit > people's brainstorming, but I can see value in culling the list that's > sent out for trademark research. OK. So the current list I have is at: http://jwboyer.fedorapeople.org/ If I have missed one that follows the rules, please let me know and I'll review it and add it. I'm taking further submissions until the end of today, and then I'll send the list to the Board for culling. After that, we'll send the revised list to legal. josh From loupgaroublond at gmail.com Fri May 30 14:50:29 2008 From: loupgaroublond at gmail.com (Yaakov Nemoy) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 16:50:29 +0200 Subject: Werewolf -> Sulphur -> ? Sulphur is a , is a In-Reply-To: <1212154872.16130.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20080522065724.1788e577@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <1212154872.16130.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <7f692fec0805300750x4a5e158dj82b0930c6a55fd08@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 3:41 PM, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Thu, 2008-05-22 at 06:57 -0500, Josh Boyer wrote: >> I will be collecting suggestions for 1 week, so the cutoff for names >> is: >> >> May 29, 2008 >> >> Suggestions will be run through the legal queue and an election will >> happen for Fedora contributors to pick the next Fedora name. > > A little added twist here. I'd like to give the Fedora Board a chance > at culling the list a little bit before sending on to Legal. There were > a number of names that made it through the "is a" test and Legal that > might not have been the best ideas for naming a release. Add to that > the fact that Red Hat has used outside Legal to do the name clearance > the last few times and that is a measurable cost both in time and money. > The more names we ask to clear the more expensive and longer the delay > will be before we have a set to vote upon. So I am asking the Fedora > Board to review the list of names that Josh has collected and remove any > they deem not acceptable as a Fedora release name before handing it to > Legal. > > (Note, I haven't yet directly talked to the board about this, so I'm > just assuming that they'll be on... board... with this.) The fact that Red Hat pays for this legal advice, in some ways is a way for Red Hat to protect their behinds, but is also in some ways a service to the community. You're right, we shouldn't abuse it or take advantage of it unfairly. But what criteria will the board use, (speaking theoretically of course) to cull the list? -Yaakov From mspevack at redhat.com Fri May 30 15:04:50 2008 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 17:04:50 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Werewolf -> Sulphur -> ? Sulphur is a , is a In-Reply-To: <20080530090935.1878ca68@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> References: <20080522065724.1788e577@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <1212154872.16130.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20080530135634.GC11236@domsch.com> <20080530090935.1878ca68@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 May 2008, Josh Boyer wrote: > If I have missed one that follows the rules, please let me know and > I'll review it and add it. Sulphur is a "Linux distribution name". "Red Hat Linux 10" is a "Linux distribution name". Therefore: Fedora 10 (Red Hat Linux 10) is my recommendation. --Max From jkeating at redhat.com Fri May 30 15:08:08 2008 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 11:08:08 -0400 Subject: Werewolf -> Sulphur -> ? Sulphur is a , is a In-Reply-To: References: <20080522065724.1788e577@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <1212154872.16130.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20080530135634.GC11236@domsch.com> <20080530090935.1878ca68@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: <1212160088.16130.113.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2008-05-30 at 17:04 +0200, Max Spevack wrote: > is my recommendation. We already have "Red Hat Linux" as being defunct magazine names. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mspevack at redhat.com Fri May 30 15:12:23 2008 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 17:12:23 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Werewolf -> Sulphur -> ? Sulphur is a , is a In-Reply-To: <1212160088.16130.113.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20080522065724.1788e577@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <1212154872.16130.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20080530135634.GC11236@domsch.com> <20080530090935.1878ca68@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <1212160088.16130.113.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 May 2008, Jesse Keating wrote: > We already have "Red Hat Linux" as being defunct magazine names. Even better! --Max, lagging behind as always :) From mspevack at redhat.com Fri May 30 15:13:10 2008 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 17:13:10 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Werewolf -> Sulphur -> ? Sulphur is a , is a In-Reply-To: References: <20080522065724.1788e577@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <1212154872.16130.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20080530135634.GC11236@domsch.com> <20080530090935.1878ca68@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <1212160088.16130.113.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 May 2008, Max Spevack wrote: > On Fri, 30 May 2008, Jesse Keating wrote: > >> We already have "Red Hat Linux" as being defunct magazine names. > > Even better! > > --Max, lagging behind as always :) Actually, no! We have "Red Hat Linux" on the list, but not "Red Hat Linux 10" :D From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Fri May 30 15:16:26 2008 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 11:16:26 -0400 Subject: Werewolf -> Sulphur -> ? Sulphur is a , is a In-Reply-To: References: <20080522065724.1788e577@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <1212154872.16130.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20080530135634.GC11236@domsch.com> <20080530090935.1878ca68@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <1212160088.16130.113.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1212160586.9616.9.camel@cutter> On Fri, 2008-05-30 at 17:13 +0200, Max Spevack wrote: > On Fri, 30 May 2008, Max Spevack wrote: > > > On Fri, 30 May 2008, Jesse Keating wrote: > > > >> We already have "Red Hat Linux" as being defunct magazine names. > > > > Even better! > > > > --Max, lagging behind as always :) > > Actually, no! We have "Red Hat Linux" on the list, but not "Red Hat > Linux 10" :D > Red Hat Linux 10 cannot be in there ,actually. Sulphur is the name of a linux distribution release Red Hat Linux 10 has not yet been the name of a linux distribution release. :) -sv From notting at redhat.com Fri May 30 15:17:23 2008 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 11:17:23 -0400 Subject: Werewolf -> Sulphur -> ? Sulphur is a , is a In-Reply-To: <20080530090935.1878ca68@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> References: <20080522065724.1788e577@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <1212154872.16130.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20080530135634.GC11236@domsch.com> <20080530090935.1878ca68@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: <20080530151723.GC22183@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Josh Boyer (jwboyer at gmail.com) said: > > > (Note, I haven't yet directly talked to the board about this, so I'm > > > just assuming that they'll be on... board... with this.) > > > > Seems a very reasonable request. The Board doesn't want to limit > > people's brainstorming, but I can see value in culling the list that's > > sent out for trademark research. > > OK. So the current list I have is at: > > http://jwboyer.fedorapeople.org/ > > If I have missed one that follows the rules, please let me know and > I'll review it and add it. I'm taking further submissions until the > end of today, and then I'll send the list to the Board for culling. > After that, we'll send the revised list to legal. My only suggestion is that we may want to reserve the right to ... un-cull... the list if legal only comes back with one or two approved names. Bill From loupgaroublond at gmail.com Fri May 30 15:20:33 2008 From: loupgaroublond at gmail.com (Yaakov Nemoy) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 17:20:33 +0200 Subject: Guideline to linking in a multilicense situation Message-ID: <7f692fec0805300820r6eae230bia8d8efff6ef34445@mail.gmail.com> Hi List, My mentor would like to use a library for part of his GSoC work that is licensed partially under the BSD license and partially under the Apache License. The library is PlotKit and can be found here: http://www.liquidx.net/plotkit/ As far as bundeling the library, we can always encourage him to create a separate package for Fedora, so that we can ship Smolt as a GPL2 only package with a dependency. In terms of GSoC related things, it's one more way to encourage him to join the community, of course. My only question is though, are we allowed to link to this library? I'm afraid I don't quite understand the nuances of a mixed license environment. Or would we need to fork the library to match licenses? -Yaakov From mspevack at redhat.com Fri May 30 15:27:34 2008 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 17:27:34 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Werewolf -> Sulphur -> ? Sulphur is a , is a In-Reply-To: <1212160586.9616.9.camel@cutter> References: <20080522065724.1788e577@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <1212154872.16130.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20080530135634.GC11236@domsch.com> <20080530090935.1878ca68@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <1212160088.16130.113.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1212160586.9616.9.camel@cutter> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 May 2008, seth vidal wrote: > Red Hat Linux 10 cannot be in there ,actually. > > Sulphur is the name of a linux distribution release Red Hat Linux 10 > has not yet been the name of a linux distribution release. > > :) /me grumbles.... /me thinks..... /me tries again.... "Sulphur" and "Red Hat Linux 10" are both the names of Linux distributions that Red Hat or a Red Hat owned Project were planning to release. Sulphur actually was released. Red Hat Linux 10 never was, but I'm sure that at some point it was "planned". :) /me throws down the gauntlet. :) From tcallawa at redhat.com Fri May 30 15:32:46 2008 From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom "spot" Callaway) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 11:32:46 -0400 Subject: Guideline to linking in a multilicense situation In-Reply-To: <7f692fec0805300820r6eae230bia8d8efff6ef34445@mail.gmail.com> References: <7f692fec0805300820r6eae230bia8d8efff6ef34445@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1212161566.7710.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2008-05-30 at 17:20 +0200, Yaakov Nemoy wrote: > Hi List, > > My mentor would like to use a library for part of his GSoC work that > is licensed partially under the BSD license and partially under the > Apache License. The library is PlotKit and can be found here: > > http://www.liquidx.net/plotkit/ > > As far as bundeling the library, we can always encourage him to create > a separate package for Fedora, so that we can ship Smolt as a GPL2 > only package with a dependency. In terms of GSoC related things, it's > one more way to encourage him to join the community, of course. My > only question is though, are we allowed to link to this library? I'm > afraid I don't quite understand the nuances of a mixed license > environment. Or would we need to fork the library to match licenses? Off the cuff (I've not looked at plotkit, or what you want to link it to)... If plotkit is under both the BSD and the ASL 2.0 (yes, it does matter what version of the Apache license it uses), any linking would need to meet the terms of both licenses. ASL 2.0 is GPLv2 incompatible, but GPLv3 compatible. If Smolt would depend on PlotKit, this would be problematic (unless Smolt is GPLv2+, in which case, the complete work would likely be interpreted as GPLv3). Alternately, Smolt could add an exception permitting linking to code under the Apache 2.0 license, something like: In addition, as a special exception, [the copyright holder] gives permission to link the code of its release of Smolt with the "PlotKit" library (or with modified versions of it that use the same license as the "PlotKit" library), and distribute the linked executables. You must obey the GNU General Public License in all respects for all of the code used other than "PlotKit". If you modify this file, you may extend this exception to your version of the file, but you are not obligated to do so. If you do not wish to do so, delete this exception statement from your version. You'd need to get permission of the copyright holder to do this, which I suspect is Red Hat, Inc. If you want to go down this path, email Richard Fontana directly and CC me. ~spot From loupgaroublond at gmail.com Fri May 30 15:37:55 2008 From: loupgaroublond at gmail.com (Yaakov Nemoy) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 17:37:55 +0200 Subject: Werewolf -> Sulphur -> ? Sulphur is a , is a In-Reply-To: References: <20080522065724.1788e577@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <1212154872.16130.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20080530135634.GC11236@domsch.com> <20080530090935.1878ca68@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: <7f692fec0805300837x4b9e7522ye94f2ecfd5664dfe@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 5:04 PM, Max Spevack wrote: > On Fri, 30 May 2008, Josh Boyer wrote: > >> If I have missed one that follows the rules, please let me know and I'll >> review it and add it. > > Sulphur is a "Linux distribution name". > > "Red Hat Linux 10" is a "Linux distribution name". > > Therefore: > > Fedora 10 (Red Hat Linux 10) > > is my recommendation. I think you want it to be Red Hat Linux 11, for obvious reasons. -Yaakov From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Fri May 30 15:44:31 2008 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 11:44:31 -0400 Subject: Werewolf -> Sulphur -> ? Sulphur is a , is a In-Reply-To: References: <20080522065724.1788e577@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <1212154872.16130.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20080530135634.GC11236@domsch.com> <20080530090935.1878ca68@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <1212160088.16130.113.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1212160586.9616.9.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <1212162271.9616.17.camel@cutter> On Fri, 2008-05-30 at 17:27 +0200, Max Spevack wrote: > On Fri, 30 May 2008, seth vidal wrote: > > > Red Hat Linux 10 cannot be in there ,actually. > > > > Sulphur is the name of a linux distribution release Red Hat Linux 10 > > has not yet been the name of a linux distribution release. > > > > :) > > /me grumbles.... > > /me thinks..... > > /me tries again.... > > "Sulphur" and "Red Hat Linux 10" are both the names of Linux > distributions that Red Hat or a Red Hat owned Project were planning to > release. > > Sulphur actually was released. Red Hat Linux 10 never was, but I'm sure > that at some point it was "planned". :) > > /me throws down the gauntlet. > I'd need evidence that anyone was planning on releasing Red Hat Linux 10. It seems to me that the following is true: 1. red hat never preannounced version numbers, release names or dates for the Red Hat Linux line of products 2. It is not obvious that there was EVER going to be a Red Hat Linux 10 given lots of things about 8 and 9 ;) /me runs -sv From gdk at redhat.com Fri May 30 16:08:18 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 12:08:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Werewolf -> Sulphur -> ? Sulphur is a , is a In-Reply-To: References: <20080522065724.1788e577@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <1212154872.16130.41.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20080530135634.GC11236@domsch.com> <20080530090935.1878ca68@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 May 2008, Max Spevack wrote: > On Fri, 30 May 2008, Josh Boyer wrote: > >> If I have missed one that follows the rules, please let me know and I'll >> review it and add it. > > Sulphur is a "Linux distribution name". > > "Red Hat Linux 10" is a "Linux distribution name". > > Therefore: > > Fedora 10 (Red Hat Linux 10) > > is my recommendation. +1! --g From monkeyboythom at gmail.com Fri May 30 16:16:22 2008 From: monkeyboythom at gmail.com (Monkey Boy) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 12:16:22 -0400 Subject: Werewolf -> Sulphur -> ? Message-ID: Howz'about: 'Evolve' since Red Hat 1 used to take about 10 CDs and we've evolved to one cd [live] for Fedora? Sorry, to interupt. I've spent too much time with the marketing suits this week...and my *Touretts *made me type this. -thom > Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 17:37:55 +0200 > From: "Yaakov Nemoy" > Subject: Re: Werewolf -> Sulphur -> ? Sulphur is a , > is a > To: fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > Message-ID: > <7f692fec0805300837x4b9e7522ye94f2ecfd5664dfe at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 5:04 PM, Max Spevack wrote: > > On Fri, 30 May 2008, Josh Boyer wrote: > > > >> If I have missed one that follows the rules, please let me know and I'll > >> review it and add it. > > > > Sulphur is a "Linux distribution name". > > > > "Red Hat Linux 10" is a "Linux distribution name". > > > > Therefore: > > > > Fedora 10 (Red Hat Linux 10) > > > > is my recommendation. > > I think you want it to be Red Hat Linux 11, for obvious reasons. > > -Yaakov > -- audentis fortuna juvet -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gdk at redhat.com Fri May 30 16:17:51 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 12:17:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Reviving the idea of Fedora Mentors? Message-ID: So we've got this page: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mentors Which is an incredibly outdated relic from a previous attempt at mentorship. Now, I think that nearly everybody I know spends a fair amount of their time in informal mentorship. Lots of folks stand ready to help a newbie contribute to the Fedora effort. But with the completion of FAS2, and with the new media for the F9 discs that will have the Join URL right there on the sleeve, and with the tremendous success we're seeing at shows like LinuxTag and FISL and elsewhere, I think it's likely that we will see a *huge* influx of newbies like we've never seen before. And as much work as we continue to do to lower the barrier of entry, the fact remains: participating in something as big as Fedora can be intimidating. It occurs to me that maybe our first effort at a Mentors project was a bit premature. Is this a good time to revisit the question? --g From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri May 30 17:47:49 2008 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 09:47:49 -0800 Subject: Reviving the idea of Fedora Mentors? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <604aa7910805301047q29981a76x4e677130e5e69b20@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 8:17 AM, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > It occurs to me that maybe our first effort at a Mentors project was a bit > premature. Is this a good time to revisit the question? A mentoring subproject would fit easily into a role-based SIG approach. Different SIGs could offering a mentoring role. I think I even included in my my rainbow bright mockup of the role based SIG concept. From smooge at gmail.com Fri May 30 18:41:17 2008 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 12:41:17 -0600 Subject: Werewolf -> Sulphur -> ? Sulphur is a , is a In-Reply-To: <1212162271.9616.17.camel@cutter> References: <20080522065724.1788e577@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <20080530135634.GC11236@domsch.com> <20080530090935.1878ca68@vader.jdub.homelinux.org> <1212160088.16130.113.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1212160586.9616.9.camel@cutter> <1212162271.9616.17.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <80d7e4090805301141q668577cag28a8016a3fd771de@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 9:44 AM, seth vidal wrote: > On Fri, 2008-05-30 at 17:27 +0200, Max Spevack wrote: >> On Fri, 30 May 2008, seth vidal wrote: >> >> > Red Hat Linux 10 cannot be in there ,actually. >> > >> > Sulphur is the name of a linux distribution release Red Hat Linux 10 >> > has not yet been the name of a linux distribution release. >> > >> > :) >> >> /me grumbles.... >> >> /me thinks..... >> >> /me tries again.... >> >> "Sulphur" and "Red Hat Linux 10" are both the names of Linux >> distributions that Red Hat or a Red Hat owned Project were planning to >> release. >> >> Sulphur actually was released. Red Hat Linux 10 never was, but I'm sure >> that at some point it was "planned". :) >> >> /me throws down the gauntlet. >> > > I'd need evidence that anyone was planning on releasing Red Hat Linux > 10. It seems to me that the following is true: Hmmmm the only person I could say would have it would be Jay Turner or other QA guys who would have had it on the "Board of DOOOOOM". I would probably say that it wasn't on there as 7.3/8/9 were oddly named compared to history. Darn it.. I just realized a name that matches with Sulphur Sulphur is something people associate with magic Halloween is something people associate with magic. [And thus we come full circle with 10 being 0 being...] > 1. red hat never preannounced version numbers, release names or dates > for the Red Hat Linux line of products > 2. It is not obvious that there was EVER going to be a Red Hat Linux 10 > given lots of things about 8 and 9 ;) > > /me runs > -sv > > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board > -- Stephen J Smoogen. -- BSD/GNU/Linux How far that little candle throws his beams! So shines a good deed in a naughty world. = Shakespeare. "The Merchant of Venice" From loupgaroublond at gmail.com Sat May 31 08:53:27 2008 From: loupgaroublond at gmail.com (Yaakov Nemoy) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 10:53:27 +0200 Subject: Guideline to linking in a multilicense situation In-Reply-To: <1212161566.7710.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <7f692fec0805300820r6eae230bia8d8efff6ef34445@mail.gmail.com> <1212161566.7710.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <7f692fec0805310153o4b56f70al86c5fc787561555f@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 5:32 PM, Tom spot Callaway wrote: > On Fri, 2008-05-30 at 17:20 +0200, Yaakov Nemoy wrote: >> Hi List, >> >> My mentor would like to use a library for part of his GSoC work that >> is licensed partially under the BSD license and partially under the >> Apache License. The library is PlotKit and can be found here: >> >> http://www.liquidx.net/plotkit/ >> >> As far as bundeling the library, we can always encourage him to create >> a separate package for Fedora, so that we can ship Smolt as a GPL2 >> only package with a dependency. In terms of GSoC related things, it's >> one more way to encourage him to join the community, of course. My >> only question is though, are we allowed to link to this library? I'm >> afraid I don't quite understand the nuances of a mixed license >> environment. Or would we need to fork the library to match licenses? > > Off the cuff (I've not looked at plotkit, or what you want to link it > to)... > > If plotkit is under both the BSD and the ASL 2.0 (yes, it does matter > what version of the Apache license it uses), any linking would need to > meet the terms of both licenses. ASL 2.0 is GPLv2 incompatible, but > GPLv3 compatible. If Smolt would depend on PlotKit, this would be > problematic (unless Smolt is GPLv2+, in which case, the complete work > would likely be interpreted as GPLv3). > > Alternately, Smolt could add an exception permitting linking to code > under the Apache 2.0 license, something like: > > In addition, as a special exception, [the copyright holder] gives > permission to link the code of its release of Smolt with the > "PlotKit" library (or with modified versions of it that use the same > license as the "PlotKit" library), and distribute the linked > executables. You must obey the GNU General Public License in all > respects for all of the code used other than "PlotKit". If you modify > this file, you may extend this exception to your version of the file, > but you are not obligated to do so. If you do not wish to do so, > delete this exception statement from your version. > > You'd need to get permission of the copyright holder to do this, which I > suspect is Red Hat, Inc. If you want to go down this path, email Richard > Fontana directly and CC me. Luckily, the copyright holder is Mike McGrath. I can take it up with him. An exception seems like a good idea to me though. Thanks for the fast reply. -Yaakov From jeffreyt at fedoraproject.org Sat May 31 15:09:34 2008 From: jeffreyt at fedoraproject.org (Jeffrey Tadlock) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 11:09:34 -0400 Subject: Reviving the idea of Fedora Mentors? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <10e0a9b00805310809l6156b6casa130676aa8f4797b@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 12:17 PM, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > So we've got this page: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mentors > > Which is an incredibly outdated relic from a previous attempt at mentorship. > > Now, I think that nearly everybody I know spends a fair amount of their time > in informal mentorship. Lots of folks stand ready to help a newbie > contribute to the Fedora effort. > > It occurs to me that maybe our first effort at a Mentors project was a bit > premature. Is this a good time to revisit the question? I think it is a great time to revisit the question. Obviously the current page is out of date. So an early step would be make sure people listed on that page are still willing to be a Fedora Mentor. In addition we've had several new faces step up in many SIGs and projects that are likely great candidates to have their name on that list. >From where I sit, I think there are several people willing to help new folks to the project. The problem is making sure the new contributors know who to contact for help or those early questions new contributors might have. So just a re-awareness of the Fedora Mentors project, the effort to keep that page up to date and to make sure each SIG/Project has a mentor representative would be a big step in the right direction. ~Jeffrey From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Sat May 31 15:37:34 2008 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (seth vidal) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 11:37:34 -0400 Subject: Guideline to linking in a multilicense situation In-Reply-To: <7f692fec0805310153o4b56f70al86c5fc787561555f@mail.gmail.com> References: <7f692fec0805300820r6eae230bia8d8efff6ef34445@mail.gmail.com> <1212161566.7710.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> <7f692fec0805310153o4b56f70al86c5fc787561555f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1212248254.9616.28.camel@cutter> On Sat, 2008-05-31 at 10:53 +0200, Yaakov Nemoy wrote: > Luckily, the copyright holder is Mike McGrath. I can take it up with > him. An exception seems like a good idea to me though. > You sure it's Mike? If he started work on that while working for red hat I think it's (c) Red Hat, Inc I might be wrong, though. -sv From kwade at redhat.com Sat May 31 16:43:13 2008 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten 'quaid' Wade) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 09:43:13 -0700 Subject: Let's re-start a discussion about role-based SIGs In-Reply-To: <604aa7910805151656o14338549w1dfbd3909c3e7146@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910805141503w4ba9452ka3cd94aa53aea71b@mail.gmail.com> <10e0a9b00805151033u1e8ff4b4t6efa0344522debe3@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910805151656o14338549w1dfbd3909c3e7146@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1212252193.17426.75.camel@calliope.phig.org> Docs subProject is on-board: "Governance, direction of project -- please read" http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2008-May/msg00126.html ... and ... "FDSCo Meeting 2008-05-28 Summary" http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2008-May/msg00125.html Jeff, I think your scheme is just a natural progression from what has been going on. I cannot imagine anyone objecting to formalizing it into some processes and such, since everyone says that is FP's weakest point. :) - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, Sr. Developer Community Mgr. Dev Fu : http://developer.redhatmagazine.com Fedora : http://quaid.fedorapeople.org gpg key : AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From a.badger at gmail.com Sat May 31 20:13:23 2008 From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 13:13:23 -0700 Subject: Guideline to linking in a multilicense situation In-Reply-To: <1212248254.9616.28.camel@cutter> References: <7f692fec0805300820r6eae230bia8d8efff6ef34445@mail.gmail.com> <1212161566.7710.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> <7f692fec0805310153o4b56f70al86c5fc787561555f@mail.gmail.com> <1212248254.9616.28.camel@cutter> Message-ID: <4841B163.509@gmail.com> seth vidal wrote: > On Sat, 2008-05-31 at 10:53 +0200, Yaakov Nemoy wrote: > >> Luckily, the copyright holder is Mike McGrath. I can take it up with >> him. An exception seems like a good idea to me though. >> > > You sure it's Mike? If he started work on that while working for red hat > I think it's (c) Red Hat, Inc > He started work on it before working for Red Hat. I don't know what the Copyright is for changes introduced after someone starts working for Red Hat, though. -Toshio -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: