From jwboyer at gmail.com Sat Aug 1 00:08:21 2009 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 20:08:21 -0400 Subject: Redesign of downloads In-Reply-To: <20090731214145.GG16883@localhost.localdomain> References: <20090731152135.GL3814@localhost.localdomain> <20090731154923.GN3814@localhost.localdomain> <4A73270F.1020203@gmail.com> <20090731181011.GD28607@hansolo.jdub.homelinux.org> <4A73434F.1090702@gmail.com> <20090731195034.GF28607@hansolo.jdub.homelinux.org> <4A7353E4.6020604@gmail.com> <20090731203836.GH28607@hansolo.jdub.homelinux.org> <20090731214145.GG16883@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20090801000821.GK28607@hansolo.jdub.homelinux.org> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 05:41:45PM -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: >On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 04:38:36PM -0400, Josh Boyer wrote: >> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 01:28:20PM -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: >> >> You're missing the targeting part here. We aren't looking to redesign the >> >> default download page and keep the exact same content. We want it simple, >> >> targeted at new users, and with a clear an easy link for differentiation >> >> present (to the spins page). >> >> >> >And I'm saying that instead of targeting "new users" we should be >> >targeting the tasks that the new users want to do. So if you want the >> >front page to have two links, one to the default spin and a second to >> >the spins page, you need to decide what the most important tasks are >> >that the default spin allows people to perform and make the second link >> >tell people they can get spins optimized for different tasks by clicking >> >to the second page. >> >> Now _that_ is certainly more clear in terms of what you're trying to say. > >Many people come to the site to download Fedora wanting very general >things: > >* More trouble-free computing > >* Cost-free software > >* General desktop computing capabilities > >I suspect most new users do not come with specific tasks in mind >beyond that, so those might make very good additional descriptions of >targets for that page. > >Trying to decide numbers of links on the page is not the thing we >should be doing here. That's a bikeshed in the making. I agree. That isn't exactly what Toshio was saying though. He was saying we should describe what our target (new users) can do with the default spin so that it's marketed towards their usage. He wasn't (at least with the latest email) proposing multiple "task" links. I'm not convinced describing the tasks one can accomplish with the default spin is all that fruitful either. However, doing at least a bit of that _would_ help some I think. It's a suggestion I think the design and websites team can take forward and play with at least. josh From stickster at gmail.com Sat Aug 1 20:54:21 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 16:54:21 -0400 Subject: TM approval request for Summit spin Message-ID: <20090801205421.GC4677@localhost.localdomain> I'm preparing an image for distribution at the Red Hat Summit. Red Hat is buying 2 GB USB keys so each attendee will receive a Fedora 11-based Live system. The image I propose to make has the following changes: * Includes all F-11 stable updates to present * Includes Anaconda fixes as represented in Jeroen's F11 repo: http://kanarip.com/anaconda/f11/i386/ * Includes a .desktop file for the automatic 'liveuser' which will appear on the Desktop after login, and allows the user to double-click to open a web browser to the Summit downloads page. * (tentative) The image *may* include a custom background that matches the visual look of some of the other Summit materials. Depends on whether I can get one scared up from the group inside Red Hat that normally produces that material. I've posted the kickstart file here, which relies on the standard kickstart files as distributed with the livecd-tools: http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/configs/fedora-livecd-desktop-en_US-upd.ks It may change very slightly to reflect the new background and I'll give a heads-up if that happens. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From matt at domsch.com Sun Aug 2 01:48:55 2009 From: matt at domsch.com (Matt Domsch) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 20:48:55 -0500 Subject: TM approval request for Summit spin In-Reply-To: <20090801205421.GC4677@localhost.localdomain> References: <20090801205421.GC4677@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20090802014854.GA22765@domsch.com> On Sat, Aug 01, 2009 at 04:54:21PM -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > I'm preparing an image for distribution at the Red Hat Summit. Red > Hat is buying 2 GB USB keys so each attendee will receive a Fedora > 11-based Live system. The image I propose to make has the following > changes: I think this is a great idea. At last year's Summit, the Fedora contributors present spent considerable time adding a Fedora Live image to the 1GB USB keys being handed out. Having the image pre-populated onto the keys will save a lot of time, which will give contributors more time to talk with people. And this way, _every_ attendee gets one, rather than just the folks willing to wait in line for it. Thanks for taking this on Paul. -Matt From mmcgrath at redhat.com Sun Aug 2 03:54:28 2009 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 22:54:28 -0500 (CDT) Subject: TM approval request for Summit spin In-Reply-To: <20090802014854.GA22765@domsch.com> References: <20090801205421.GC4677@localhost.localdomain> <20090802014854.GA22765@domsch.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Aug 2009, Matt Domsch wrote: > On Sat, Aug 01, 2009 at 04:54:21PM -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > I'm preparing an image for distribution at the Red Hat Summit. Red > > Hat is buying 2 GB USB keys so each attendee will receive a Fedora > > 11-based Live system. The image I propose to make has the following > > changes: > > I think this is a great idea. At last year's Summit, the Fedora > contributors present spent considerable time adding a Fedora Live > image to the 1GB USB keys being handed out. Having the image > pre-populated onto the keys will save a lot of time, which will give > contributors more time to talk with people. And this way, _every_ > attendee gets one, rather than just the folks willing to wait in line > for it. > If you end up with an image somewhere I'd be happy to provide a little QA on it. -Mike From jonstanley at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 04:01:10 2009 From: jonstanley at gmail.com (Jon Stanley) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 00:01:10 -0400 Subject: TM approval request for Summit spin In-Reply-To: <20090801205421.GC4677@localhost.localdomain> References: <20090801205421.GC4677@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 4:54 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > * Includes Anaconda fixes as represented in Jeroen's F11 repo: > ?http://kanarip.com/anaconda/f11/i386/ In some conversations tonight this might be a showstopper for use of the Fedora marks, since we're including non-Fedora software on the spin, it could be at best called a remix. Of course, if we can get the anaconda team to release it as an official update, problem solved...... From kanarip at kanarip.com Sun Aug 2 11:27:18 2009 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Sun, 02 Aug 2009 13:27:18 +0200 Subject: TM approval request for Summit spin In-Reply-To: <20090801205421.GC4677@localhost.localdomain> References: <20090801205421.GC4677@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4A757816.8050801@kanarip.com> On 08/01/2009 10:54 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > I'm preparing an image for distribution at the Red Hat Summit. Red > Hat is buying 2 GB USB keys so each attendee will receive a Fedora > 11-based Live system. The image I propose to make has the following > changes: > I would recommend to include fedora-livecd-desktop.ks rather then fedora-livecd-desktop-en_US.ks, since the latter has been removed from the GIT repo -it was a non-default English localized version but the maintainers of the desktop spin decided to no longer include any localization bits on the default desktop spin, hence not needing a specific en_US localized version anymore. -- Jeroen From matt at domsch.com Sun Aug 2 20:01:42 2009 From: matt at domsch.com (Matt Domsch) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 15:01:42 -0500 Subject: TM approval request for Summit spin In-Reply-To: References: <20090801205421.GC4677@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20090802200141.GA4246@domsch.com> On Sun, Aug 02, 2009 at 12:01:10AM -0400, Jon Stanley wrote: > On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 4:54 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > > * Includes Anaconda fixes as represented in Jeroen's F11 repo: > > ?http://kanarip.com/anaconda/f11/i386/ > > In some conversations tonight this might be a showstopper for use of > the Fedora marks, since we're including non-Fedora software on the > spin, it could be at best called a remix. Of course, if we can get > the anaconda team to release it as an official update, problem > solved...... >From the fedora-devel-list traffic of 28 July, it sounds like Jeroen and David Cantrell have been working together to get an updated anaconda package built, tested, and put into updates-released. At that point it would be considered "official" again, and not have to be labeled as a Remix (with all the ensuing trademark removals necessary). Can that happen in time for Paul's deadline to get the image on the keys, I don't know. I sure hope so. I'm also concerned about the larger implications that this part of the policy imposes. If a single package's maintainers choose not to issue an update (for whatever reason: lack of time; unhappy with the proposed update), but a proposed Spin or Remix really requires that update, policy today forces it to be a Remix, not a Spin. With >8000 srpms in the tree now and growing, this gives a lot of packagers a pretty good lever (intentional or not; used or not) over another group's Spin vs Remix decision. Someone in provenpackager could resolve the issue by building and promoting the necessary update, possibly against the wishes and plans of the package maintainer. Perhaps this just shows a need for proposed Spins to get their requirements into the Spin SIG as early as possible so these kinds of issues can be worked out in sufficient time. Thanks, Matt From tcallawa at redhat.com Sun Aug 2 20:54:07 2009 From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom "spot" Callaway) Date: Sun, 02 Aug 2009 16:54:07 -0400 Subject: TM approval request for Summit spin In-Reply-To: References: <20090801205421.GC4677@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4A75FCEF.9020807@redhat.com> On 08/02/2009 12:01 AM, Jon Stanley wrote: > On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 4:54 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > >> * Includes Anaconda fixes as represented in Jeroen's F11 repo: >> http://kanarip.com/anaconda/f11/i386/ > > In some conversations tonight this might be a showstopper for use of > the Fedora marks, since we're including non-Fedora software on the > spin, it could be at best called a remix. Of course, if we can get > the anaconda team to release it as an official update, problem > solved...... Keep in mind that the Fedora Board can give it trademark approval anyways. The Board can give a dead armadillo corpse approval to use the Fedora logo if they choose to. ~spot From frankly3d at gmail.com Sun Aug 2 22:44:10 2009 From: frankly3d at gmail.com (Frank Murphy) Date: Sun, 02 Aug 2009 23:44:10 +0100 Subject: TM approval request for Summit spin In-Reply-To: <4A75FCEF.9020807@redhat.com> References: <20090801205421.GC4677@localhost.localdomain> <4A75FCEF.9020807@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4A7616BA.9040303@gmail.com> On 02/08/09 21:54, Tom "spot" Callaway wrote: > > > Keep in mind that the Fedora Board can give it trademark approval > anyways. The Board can give a dead armadillo corpse approval to use the > Fedora logo if they choose to. > > > ~spot Waiting patiently on Armadillo Spin :D From smooge at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 01:01:48 2009 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 19:01:48 -0600 Subject: TM approval request for Summit spin In-Reply-To: <4A7616BA.9040303@gmail.com> References: <20090801205421.GC4677@localhost.localdomain> <4A75FCEF.9020807@redhat.com> <4A7616BA.9040303@gmail.com> Message-ID: <80d7e4090908021801p720e4570sb23ad0b7cc5f7f65@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 4:44 PM, Frank Murphy wrote: > On 02/08/09 21:54, Tom "spot" Callaway wrote: > >> >> >> Keep in mind that the Fedora Board can give it trademark approval >> anyways. The Board can give a dead armadillo corpse approval to use the >> Fedora logo if they choose to. >> >> >> ~spot > > Waiting patiently on Armadillo Spin :D > Amputated Armadillo spin that is. -- Stephen J Smoogen. Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp. Or what's a heaven for? -- Robert Browning From stickster at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 14:11:49 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 10:11:49 -0400 Subject: TM approval request for Summit spin In-Reply-To: <4A757816.8050801@kanarip.com> References: <20090801205421.GC4677@localhost.localdomain> <4A757816.8050801@kanarip.com> Message-ID: <20090803141149.GI3998@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, Aug 02, 2009 at 01:27:18PM +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > On 08/01/2009 10:54 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: >> I'm preparing an image for distribution at the Red Hat Summit. Red >> Hat is buying 2 GB USB keys so each attendee will receive a Fedora >> 11-based Live system. The image I propose to make has the following >> changes: >> > > I would recommend to include fedora-livecd-desktop.ks rather then > fedora-livecd-desktop-en_US.ks, since the latter has been removed from > the GIT repo -it was a non-default English localized version but the > maintainers of the desktop spin decided to no longer include any > localization bits on the default desktop spin, hence not needing a > specific en_US localized version anymore. Thanks for that info Jeroen, I'll update my KS and re-spin it. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From stickster at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 14:15:16 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 10:15:16 -0400 Subject: TM approval request for Summit spin In-Reply-To: <4A75FCEF.9020807@redhat.com> References: <20090801205421.GC4677@localhost.localdomain> <4A75FCEF.9020807@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20090803141516.GJ3998@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, Aug 02, 2009 at 04:54:07PM -0400, Tom spot Callaway wrote: > On 08/02/2009 12:01 AM, Jon Stanley wrote: > > On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 4:54 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > > >> * Includes Anaconda fixes as represented in Jeroen's F11 repo: > >> http://kanarip.com/anaconda/f11/i386/ > > > > In some conversations tonight this might be a showstopper for use of > > the Fedora marks, since we're including non-Fedora software on the > > spin, it could be at best called a remix. Of course, if we can get > > the anaconda team to release it as an official update, problem > > solved...... > > > Keep in mind that the Fedora Board can give it trademark approval > anyways. The Board can give a dead armadillo corpse approval to use the > Fedora logo if they choose to. > Correct. I knew full well in this case we were dealing with a piece of *ostensibly* non-Fedora software -- albeit that the anaconda branch in use is our copy, plus some cherry-picked patches that are also from the upstream anaconda. AFAIK there are no alien bits that are part of the updates Joeroen puts together with input from David Cantrell and other Red Hat folks. My purpose in providing the updates was to ensure that recipients at the Summit had the maximum ability to have a good installation experience via the 'liveinst' binary. Be that as it may, it's up to the Board whether they want to grant TM approval for this spin. If the Board decides I need to drop back to the stock Anaconda, I'll do so, but we need to get this decided pronto, since I am under a deadline to get this image to the USB vendor who's doing to duplicate these for distribution to all the Red Hat Summit attendees. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From rdieter at math.unl.edu Mon Aug 3 14:52:01 2009 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2009 09:52:01 -0500 Subject: Redesign of downloads References: <20090730175140.GR27458@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: Paul W. Frields wrote: > One of the issues the Board has been discussing recently is the state > of our various download pages for Fedora. Seems opensuse is going through some similar trials and tribulations. For comparison, an interesting read : "KDE to be default on openSUSE?" http://vizzzion.org/?blogentry=919 Admittedly, many of the points raised there may likely end up hurting the kde cause here in fedora-land, and that's fine as long as our future includes healthy doses of fairness and transparency. -- Rex From stickster at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 22:00:13 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 18:00:13 -0400 Subject: Reminder: Fedora Board IRC meeting 1600 UTC 2009-08-06 Message-ID: <20090803220013.GD10512@localhost.localdomain> The Board is holding its monthly public meeting on Thursday, August 6, 2009, at 1600 UTC on IRC Freenode. For this meeting, the public is invited to do the following: * Join #fedora-board-meeting to see the Board's conversation. * Join #fedora-board-questions to discuss topics and post questions. This channel is read/write for everyone. The moderator will voice people from the queue, one at a time, in the #fedora-board-meeting channel. We'll limit time per voice as needed to give everyone in the queue a chance to be heard. The Board may reserve some time at the top of the hour to cover any agenda items as appropriate. We look forward to seeing you at the meeting! -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Aug 4 10:02:49 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2009 15:32:49 +0530 Subject: Redesign of downloads In-Reply-To: References: <20090730175140.GR27458@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4A780749.1010207@fedoraproject.org> On 08/03/2009 08:22 PM, Rex Dieter wrote: > Paul W. Frields wrote: > >> One of the issues the Board has been discussing recently is the state >> of our various download pages for Fedora. > > Seems opensuse is going through some similar trials and tribulations. For > comparison, an interesting read : > "KDE to be default on openSUSE?" > http://vizzzion.org/?blogentry=919 > > Admittedly, many of the points raised there may likely end up hurting the > kde cause here in fedora-land, and that's fine as long as our future > includes healthy doses of fairness and transparency. The key point I get from that blog post is that "a no default" position in the name of providing choice is silly. It is the politically correct and supposed fair thing to do but it is a massive failure that proponents of each desktop environment will see as a bias against them. Pick one and stick to it. Rahul From manatsawin at gmail.com Mon Aug 3 13:03:57 2009 From: manatsawin at gmail.com (Manatsawin) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 20:03:57 +0700 Subject: Community domain request Message-ID: <777698920908030603p61b1c674rab58b8d0519f3ec0@mail.gmail.com> To whom it may concern, I have recently promoted to be a Fedora Ambassador. Therefor I would like to create a Fedora community website in Thailand and publish Fedora news and knowledge to Thais. I would like to request approval to use th.fedoracommunity.org and fedora.in.th which the latter one purchasing will be done by myself. I have created a mockup at thf.mine.nu (but on live hosting) *Website team: *Myself, and Mr. Anoochit Chalothorn (another Fedora Ambassador) *Services: *Blog, Planet, Forum *DNS Record:* A 203.150.228.104 MX 5 mx.openfreehost.com Best Regards, Manatsawin Hanmongkolchai Fedora Ambassador -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stickster at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 12:21:17 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 08:21:17 -0400 Subject: TM approval request for Summit spin In-Reply-To: <20090803141149.GI3998@localhost.localdomain> References: <20090801205421.GC4677@localhost.localdomain> <4A757816.8050801@kanarip.com> <20090803141149.GI3998@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20090804122117.GI4667@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, Aug 03, 2009 at 10:11:49AM -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Sun, Aug 02, 2009 at 01:27:18PM +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > > On 08/01/2009 10:54 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > >> I'm preparing an image for distribution at the Red Hat Summit. Red > >> Hat is buying 2 GB USB keys so each attendee will receive a Fedora > >> 11-based Live system. The image I propose to make has the following > >> changes: > >> > > > > I would recommend to include fedora-livecd-desktop.ks rather then > > fedora-livecd-desktop-en_US.ks, since the latter has been removed from > > the GIT repo -it was a non-default English localized version but the > > maintainers of the desktop spin decided to no longer include any > > localization bits on the default desktop spin, hence not needing a > > specific en_US localized version anymore. > > Thanks for that info Jeroen, I'll update my KS and re-spin it. The updated file is here: http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/configs/fedora-livecd-desktop-summit.ks -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From kanarip at kanarip.com Tue Aug 4 12:32:36 2009 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2009 14:32:36 +0200 Subject: TM approval request for Summit spin In-Reply-To: <20090804122117.GI4667@localhost.localdomain> References: <20090801205421.GC4677@localhost.localdomain> <4A757816.8050801@kanarip.com> <20090803141149.GI3998@localhost.localdomain> <20090804122117.GI4667@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4A782A64.5070700@kanarip.com> On 08/04/2009 02:21 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Mon, Aug 03, 2009 at 10:11:49AM -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: >> On Sun, Aug 02, 2009 at 01:27:18PM +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: >>> On 08/01/2009 10:54 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: >>>> I'm preparing an image for distribution at the Red Hat Summit. Red >>>> Hat is buying 2 GB USB keys so each attendee will receive a Fedora >>>> 11-based Live system. The image I propose to make has the following >>>> changes: >>>> >>> I would recommend to include fedora-livecd-desktop.ks rather then >>> fedora-livecd-desktop-en_US.ks, since the latter has been removed from >>> the GIT repo -it was a non-default English localized version but the >>> maintainers of the desktop spin decided to no longer include any >>> localization bits on the default desktop spin, hence not needing a >>> specific en_US localized version anymore. >> Thanks for that info Jeroen, I'll update my KS and re-spin it. > > The updated file is here: > http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/configs/fedora-livecd-desktop-summit.ks > Awesome, looks great. Say, did you want this to go in the custom/ directory in GIT[1], just like the LXDE Spin is in there in the revision I linked to (it has now moved to the main directory), and do you want it packaged into the 'custom-kickstarts' package? -- Jeroen [1] http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=spin-kickstarts.git;a=tree;f=custom;h=bff689591bef2d23d78e06bb0c761a6a274bc056;hb=bb9621b7b2bff6dfffdffa3d0bb087840009d7a7 From stickster at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 12:40:40 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 08:40:40 -0400 Subject: TM approval request for Summit spin In-Reply-To: References: <20090801205421.GC4677@localhost.localdomain> <20090802014854.GA22765@domsch.com> Message-ID: <20090804124040.GJ4667@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, Aug 01, 2009 at 10:54:28PM -0500, Mike McGrath wrote: > On Sat, 1 Aug 2009, Matt Domsch wrote: > > > On Sat, Aug 01, 2009 at 04:54:21PM -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > > I'm preparing an image for distribution at the Red Hat Summit. Red > > > Hat is buying 2 GB USB keys so each attendee will receive a Fedora > > > 11-based Live system. The image I propose to make has the following > > > changes: > > > > I think this is a great idea. At last year's Summit, the Fedora > > contributors present spent considerable time adding a Fedora Live > > image to the 1GB USB keys being handed out. Having the image > > pre-populated onto the keys will save a lot of time, which will give > > contributors more time to talk with people. And this way, _every_ > > attendee gets one, rather than just the folks willing to wait in line > > for it. > > > > If you end up with an image somewhere I'd be happy to provide a little QA > on it. Once again I realized that my last iteration created an x86_64 spin when I really needed an i386 spin, so I've respun. I put the results here: http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/temp/livecd-fedora-livecd-desktop-summit-200908040728.iso One other change is under consideration, which is having a text mark of some sort on the desktop background identifying this as a Summit spin. That change will not be part of a desktop background package, just installed locally for the "liveuser" account. I don't have that art yet but I'm hoping to get it shortly. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From stickster at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 12:45:30 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 08:45:30 -0400 Subject: TM approval request for Summit spin In-Reply-To: <4A782A64.5070700@kanarip.com> References: <20090801205421.GC4677@localhost.localdomain> <4A757816.8050801@kanarip.com> <20090803141149.GI3998@localhost.localdomain> <20090804122117.GI4667@localhost.localdomain> <4A782A64.5070700@kanarip.com> Message-ID: <20090804124530.GK4667@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, Aug 04, 2009 at 02:32:36PM +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > On 08/04/2009 02:21 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: >> On Mon, Aug 03, 2009 at 10:11:49AM -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: >>> On Sun, Aug 02, 2009 at 01:27:18PM +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: >>>> On 08/01/2009 10:54 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: >>>>> I'm preparing an image for distribution at the Red Hat Summit. Red >>>>> Hat is buying 2 GB USB keys so each attendee will receive a Fedora >>>>> 11-based Live system. The image I propose to make has the following >>>>> changes: >>>>> >>>> I would recommend to include fedora-livecd-desktop.ks rather then >>>> fedora-livecd-desktop-en_US.ks, since the latter has been removed from >>>> the GIT repo -it was a non-default English localized version but the >>>> maintainers of the desktop spin decided to no longer include any >>>> localization bits on the default desktop spin, hence not needing a >>>> specific en_US localized version anymore. >>> Thanks for that info Jeroen, I'll update my KS and re-spin it. >> >> The updated file is here: >> http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/configs/fedora-livecd-desktop-summit.ks >> > > Awesome, looks great. > > Say, did you want this to go in the custom/ directory in GIT[1], just > like the LXDE Spin is in there in the revision I linked to (it has now > moved to the main directory), and do you want it packaged into the > 'custom-kickstarts' package? In the spirit of keeping all things Fedora available and freely redistributed, sure. Even though I don't think this particular KS is noteworthy... :-) You might want to hold off until I get the artwork issue properly sorted, since that will probably involve a little more scripting in %post. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From stickster at gmail.com Tue Aug 4 13:33:41 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 09:33:41 -0400 Subject: Finishing spins.fp.o Message-ID: <20090804133341.GA8043@localhost.localdomain> Along with the redesign of the get-fedora page, the Board wants to have a revamped spins.fedoraproject.org page completed.[1] The purpose of the revision would be to provide a more functional and attractive entry point from which users could look at all the possible spin options to decide which is best for their needs. The current page is simply a tracker, and offers no qualitative information that can be used to promote a spin, or encourage a user to join in the community effort around it. A new spins.fp.o page is intended to serve: * People who have specific needs beyond simply a functional desktop, such as specialized tools or a particular environment * People who have enough technical knowledge to discern their computer's architecture * People who are looking for a specific team effort in which they can get involved * People who have seen a specific spin in action or on display, and want a copy of that spin specifically * People who prefer to choose from an a la carte-style listing of options and feel comfortable deciding for themselves * People who are interested in information about what a spin is, and how they can create one using common tools. This entry point would lead to additional pages, each containing content provided by the SIG or other persons responsible for that spin. That content could include promotional and technical material that would allow users to make decisions and encourage them to get involved in the team efforts behind the spin. All spins would get an individual page, and the entry point would present the collection in some logical form. The get-fedora page should provide a clear route to this spins entry point for people who want choices beyond the default, and similarly, this entry point should provide an "escape hatch" for people who do not want to make a choice from the many spin options. Some earlier mockups were done in pursuit of such a system[1], but the designs were based on the existence of an automated spin creation facility. Although that remains an option for the future, it needn't be a blocker for giving spin creators a much better way to show off their work. Finally, the Board decided that a new get-fedora page should not be published until the new spins.fp.o is available. = = = [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meeting:Board_meeting_2009-07-30 [2] http://fedorapeople.org/groups/designteam/Projects/Fedora%20Spins/Wireframes/ These mockups aren't current, nor are they intended for critiques. They're referenced here purely for historical completeness. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From matt at domsch.com Tue Aug 4 15:08:04 2009 From: matt at domsch.com (Matt Domsch) Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 10:08:04 -0500 Subject: TM approval request for Summit spin In-Reply-To: <20090804124530.GK4667@localhost.localdomain> References: <20090801205421.GC4677@localhost.localdomain> <4A757816.8050801@kanarip.com> <20090803141149.GI3998@localhost.localdomain> <20090804122117.GI4667@localhost.localdomain> <4A782A64.5070700@kanarip.com> <20090804124530.GK4667@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20090804150804.GA25549@domsch.com> On Tue, Aug 04, 2009 at 08:45:30AM -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Tue, Aug 04, 2009 at 02:32:36PM +0200, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > > On 08/04/2009 02:21 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > >> The updated file is here: > >> http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/configs/fedora-livecd-desktop-summit.ks > >> > > > > Awesome, looks great. > > > > Say, did you want this to go in the custom/ directory in GIT[1], just > > like the LXDE Spin is in there in the revision I linked to (it has now > > moved to the main directory), and do you want it packaged into the > > 'custom-kickstarts' package? > > In the spirit of keeping all things Fedora available and freely > redistributed, sure. Even though I don't think this particular KS is > noteworthy... :-) You might want to hold off until I get the artwork > issue properly sorted, since that will probably involve a little more > scripting in %post. In addition, I would ask you to put the list of corresponding source SRPMs into the correspondingsource git tree. http://git.fedorahosted.org/git/?p=correspondingsource.git;a=tree has a small shell script (liveiso_srpm_list) that can be used to obtain this list from the ISO image you generate. Thanks, Matt From stickster at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 21:47:50 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 17:47:50 -0400 Subject: Board IRC Meeting 2009-08-06 log Message-ID: <20090806214750.GG3859@localhost.localdomain> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 16:02:49 #startmeeting 16:03:31 Hm, I expected Zodbot to reply 16:03:40 botfail 16:04:10 #topic Introduction 16:04:31 Welcome everyone to a Fedora Board public IRC meeting. 16:04:39 We have a short agenda to get through first, then we'll take community Q&A. 16:05:15 You can join #fedora-board-questions and we'll queue people from there to ask questions in this channel, when we reach that point. 16:05:53 Sorry caillon, I'll remedy that when we're through. It's supposed to be automatic. 16:06:04 #topic roll call 16:06:06 ;) 16:06:46 * mdomsch raises hand 16:06:48 * poelcat 16:06:51 * glezos waves 16:07:08 * notting is here 16:07:32 * jwb is here 16:08:12 * spot is here 16:08:13 spot: should be here 16:08:16 And speak of the devil! 16:08:24 * stickster pinged dgilmore, anyone seen him? 16:08:26 Let's get started. 16:08:36 #topic Russian Fedora initiative 16:09:40 This is still pending a couple things -- waiting for (1) one detail from RH Legal for a non-software goods license, and (2) a name from Alexey for the domain license. 16:09:59 Re-pinged Legal earlier today. Otherwise, nothing further to report right now. 16:10:39 stickster: can you give some more details on the non-software goods issue? 16:10:45 glezos: Sure 16:11:10 We only have one group, the EMEA NPO, that holds a non-software goods license currently. 16:11:46 It was designed for them because at the outset we had someone nearby (Max Spevack, community architecture team manager) who could initially determine that the goods made were of a quality commensurate with the trademark. 16:11:59 stickster: I was wondering if we have somewhere documented the requirement for a non-software goods license. 16:12:11 We don't yet, because we've only done it once. 16:12:49 stickster: understood. If we could documented it now (following the one, two, many rule) for future reference, it'd be great. 16:12:54 That was a special situation because there is a backing organization (the NPO) and a bit more accountability from Red Hat. 16:13:15 So this application is a chance for me to ensure that we can turn this into a model. 16:14:16 What I'm seeking from Legal is their comfort with the Board assessing and giving out these licenses. 16:14:42 Once we've got that, then it's just a matter of writing up some mutually acceptable guidelines, such as we do with our other trademark matters. 16:15:23 Anything else on this? 16:15:31 stickster: Yes, this is my own endeavor too. We should ensure that parties feel comfortable with the Board taking these decisions, as the highest decision-making body in Fedora. 16:15:41 stickster: thanks for all your continued work on the TM stuff! 16:16:09 glezos: Right, and I think that we've developed a good basis for doing that with our other trademark duties. 16:16:25 OK, if there's nothing further, let's move on 16:16:33 thanks for making sure the outcome of these discussions with legal are brought in the open. Looking forward to even more openness. :) 16:16:36 (eof) 16:16:54 #info Awaiting contact back from Legal and Russian Fedora reps 16:17:10 #action stickster to continue follow-up responsibilities 16:17:24 #topic BitTorrent stats counter 16:17:30 glezos: Care to give an update on this one? 16:17:47 * glezos looks up for the ticket. 16:17:56 https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/1456 16:18:00 #link https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/1456 16:18:10 * stickster still getting the hang of the bot, sorry. 16:18:31 We were looking to increase the publicity on the days of our releases 16:19:02 Now we have two separate pages for torrent and torrent stats (and no stats for the rest of downloads and yum master server pings) 16:19:13 It seems it'll require some work from Infra to achieve what we want 16:19:19 get.fp.o + a moksha applet would be slick 16:19:26 glezos: You mean, no dynamic page, right? 16:19:32 And we should decide if we'd like to ask this work to be done from Inra. 16:19:40 We do have numbers at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Statistics -- but those are updated manually on a weekly basis. 16:20:04 stickster: right, we'd like to have something updated on a per-hour basis, or even more often if it's possible. A download counter or something. 16:20:29 Ideally we could get aggregated and useful info from http://torrent.fedoraproject.org:6969/ and add this in get.fpo and torrent.fpo. 16:20:43 glezos: skvidal may have some status to share here 16:20:49 hi 16:21:03 literally years ago, now, I wrote a bttrack.dat parser 16:21:14 skvidal: Hi Seth. Do you know how much time we'll need to achieve what you 've written in https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/1456#comment:7 ? 16:21:19 I still have it (somewhere). getting it to kick out relatively simply-formatted values wouldn't be hard 16:21:39 I'm not sure how we get the info from that file over to fcomm/moksha but I'm sure that can be worked out 16:21:44 I'm surprised there's not a python lib for that in Fedora somewhere 16:21:51 (the bttrack.dat part.) 16:21:51 glezos, you want to add stats to get.fp.o? 16:21:52 stickster: for what? parsing bttrack? 16:22:07 skvidal: Right. 16:22:09 stickster: why? it's torrent-specific - a complete one-off - a giant dict of dict of dict 16:22:11 glezos, i'm not sure that matches up well with the simplified page 16:22:16 jwb: I'd like to have *some* stats. If we could get bittorrent ones, great. If we could get combined ones, even better. 16:22:27 glezos, but where do you want to display those? 16:22:29 glezos: what's the goal of having the stats? 16:22:45 isn't the issue with combined ones that things get redirected to the mirrors, and therefore you lose any tracking of 'completed' downloads? 16:23:01 skvidal: No idea; it exists, therefore a py-lib is inevitable 16:23:11 stickster: umm, ok 16:23:19 "t we are looking for is a marketing item, for the interest of our users and journalists mostly. They will go to page with a different port and see a page which is very, very technical. We want a 'wow' factor like the one raised by this page:" 16:23:26 Oops, repasting. 16:23:32 What we are looking for is a marketing item, for the interest of our users and journalists mostly. They will go to page with a different port and see a page which is very, very technical. We want a 'wow' factor like the one raised by this page: 16:23:33 http://downloadstats.mozilla.com/ 16:23:40 isn't ianweller working on stats? 16:23:47 i thought that was his summer internship 16:24:08 ianweller's internship is over now, but he's still doing some stats work AIUI. 16:24:19 maybe he and seth and luke can work together 16:24:27 sure 16:24:40 win 16:24:41 so the goal of this is not to represent the numbers BETTER 16:24:53 but to represent them glitzier and on a different page 16:25:18 I'm unclear what the Board's action here would be. Combine this request into the "make get.fp.o better" request from last week? 16:25:21 skvidal: At the risk of conflating the problem space, it might also be able to solve the "Paul updates the wiki manually" problem 16:25:31 mdomsch: No, I don't think that's the same problem 16:25:34 stickster: updates the wiki manually for what? 16:25:47 stickster: you update the wiki with torrent download stats? 16:25:48 skvidal: Recording weekly stats from direct downloads, yum check-ins, and BT downloads. 16:25:50 mdomsch, i think they're entirely different 16:25:52 * glezos would love to see even a few numbers... "Hhow many users are downloading Fedora X the moment or the bandwidth we're serving via bittorrent. 16:25:56 stickster: why do you do that? :) 16:26:03 #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Statistics 16:26:16 skvidal: Because many people look for it and use it in other places -- press, community members among them 16:26:24 ah 16:26:25 okay 16:26:46 yah - I can setup a job to dump bttrack data to some other format or what not for fcomm 16:26:57 OK, so glezos, why don't you get with the folks mentioned above -- ianweller, skvidal, lmacken -- to figure out what we want to do, and how. 16:27:07 stickster: okie dokie. 16:27:11 * glezos will send an email. 16:27:25 #action glezos to talk to ianweller, skvidal, lmacken to move this item forward for better stats tracking and presentation. 16:27:43 #topic Extended Life Cycle 16:28:20 This particular item is waiting on an updated proposal from kanarip or someone on his team of people 16:29:17 That update was supposed to clarify what exactly they're seeking from the Board and from Fedora in terms of resources, infrastructure, etc., so we know what we're trying to answer. 16:29:27 the only updates i have seen are that people keep expressing interest via the existing page 16:29:48 which is great. there's a rather large number now. but yeah, we don't really know what they are volunteering for with clarity :) 16:30:00 Then I don't see any further action for us for right now. 16:30:21 * poelcat moves to close this ticket and reopen when a proposal is submitted 16:30:41 is that too hasty? how many weeks has it been? 16:31:03 First meeting was 2009-07-16 16:31:09 Three weeks ago. 16:31:12 * mdomsch thinks just table it 16:31:26 i can email kanarip and see what the hold up is 16:31:35 stickster: there has been no update, and the questions i asked on fab remain unanswered 16:31:59 in any case, i think the recent changes the board has been doing with goals/defaults may impact this 16:32:05 so it may be best to table it regardless 16:32:10 until all that is sorted 16:32:23 jwb: i get the feeling that he is upset we are doing some due dilligance. since the changes would be so far reaching 16:32:46 i wouldn't care to speculate on that either way 16:32:54 dgilmore: i don't think we should speculate 16:32:59 Agreed. 16:33:03 im not speculating 16:33:11 we either have a clear proposal we can review or we don't :) 16:33:18 we dont 16:33:19 * poelcat votes for moving on 16:33:33 OK, we'll leave this open for now and revisit next week, tabling if needed. 16:34:01 stickster, just table until proposal comes back 16:34:34 OK, let's make this simple so we can move on. Vote to close the issue until the proposal is rewritten to pose precise questions 16:34:43 +1 16:34:48 +1 16:34:48 +2 16:34:52 +1 16:34:57 aye 16:35:13 +1 16:35:26 stickster: i think we should close it and reopen when we have the information requested 16:35:27 +1 16:35:28 stickster: s/questions/desired goals, actions, etc. 16:35:32 (I didn't think skvidal was going to vote there, just cleaning up) :-) 16:35:42 poelcat: Noted, thanks. 16:36:05 OK, 8-0, mmcgrath is not here today. 16:36:16 #action Close ELC issue until proposal is refined as requested. 16:36:23 #topic Thai community request from FAB 16:36:56 We had a request for both a domain license for a .th domain, and a th.fedoracommunity.org domain 16:37:51 Note for the record that we recently granted a .ru domain for a Russian community group, but after our guidance, are going to be transitioning to a ru.fedoracommunity.org domain 16:38:17 their community site was pre-existing, correct? 16:38:36 I think the only way we should permit country-code specific domains is as blind redirects to the code.fedoracommunity.org site 16:38:37 Correct 16:38:41 the thai site does not exist yet, as i understand it 16:38:47 notting: that is correct too 16:39:01 spot, how can we enforce that though? 16:39:20 i'd be more comfortable only doing exceptions to the fedoracommunity.org in the case of a pre-exisitng community site 16:39:25 but then that can lead to gaming the system 16:39:45 mdomsch: i think it should be fairly simple to determine that 16:40:06 I'm in favor of fedoracommunity.org domains for several reasons: 16:40:06 1. They make it clear the community owns the content and not the Fedora Project. Community members are free to populate that content as they wish. 16:40:06 2. They help prevent any site problems at the local community level from resulting in outages of previously well-known sites. 16:40:06 3. They allow us to more easily build and maintain later an attractive portal that can bring international users to a supportive community. 16:41:11 TLD fedoracommunity.org is already held by Fedora, correct? 16:41:14 4. They also make for an easier transition to a future where we have better localized central sites already. 16:41:17 poelcat: That's correct 16:41:28 We simply put in a DNS entry pointing to whatever hosting the local community is using. 16:41:52 It also means the local community does not have to pay for DNS services, although that's a pretty minor cost in some areas. (And not so minor in others.) 16:42:02 I too would much prefer to have the "center of gravity" for these localized communities being still around the Fedora central websites, as opposed to splintered off 16:42:14 are there any specific disadvantages of fedoracommunity.org approach? 16:42:33 glezos mentioned the perception of .org vs. . 16:42:41 aside from that, i don't know of any 16:42:45 poelcat: the fact that local communities don't like them. :) 16:43:01 Yes, this was an issue -- ".org" is not seen as very localized, while ".xx" is 16:43:01 a good thing to consider :) 16:43:24 I believe we should give the choice to our local communities. If they prefer a .xx and are ready to take the costs, that's fine by me. 16:43:42 Unfortunately, we don't have the ability to buy dozens (or more) of fedoracommunity.xx domains. 16:43:53 i can't really say 'just leave it up to the local community' when it involves trademark stuff 16:44:22 We already give a huge amount of flexibility with the trademarks in terms of using them on web sites, promotional material, and so on. 16:44:27 glezos, which is more important, the content on the site, or the name of the site? 16:44:28 * glezos reminds we already give great confidence to our local communities in a dozen other topics, like representation to local events and stuff. 16:45:08 glezos: sure. which does not have binding legal issues surrounding it. 16:45:10 mdomsch: I believe we should ask that to the local communities. Depending on the country, the local community might believe it's important to have a .xx domain. 16:45:12 glezos: For me, it's not an issue of trust. It's also an issue of flexibility for our infrastructure team and planning for the future. 16:45:38 fwiw, i stand by my statement that i'd approve an .xx domain if and only if it redirected to the xx.fedoracommunity.org domain 16:45:40 stickster: I think maximum flexibility for our Infra team would be not to have to bother *at all* with a domain, no? 16:46:14 spot, i agree 16:46:22 glezos: Not if we wanted later to provide better localized infrastructure that served all communities. 16:46:36 s/Not/Not necessarily/ 16:46:52 stickster: that'd be great, and we could offer this to the local communities to use. I'm sure a lot of them would be very happy to also have a page on this service. 16:47:28 i perfer xx.fedoracommunity.org it allows for much easier migration between people if people no longer remain in the project 16:47:56 dgilmore: That's a good point, because I've already had to deal with this in one region in the last six months. 16:48:06 spot: how do you keep track of them all and couldn't it be unknowingly changed later? 16:48:07 if we could buy and manage all the domains then more local domains would be nice but that is cost prohibitve 16:48:21 poelcat: a wiki list could keep track. 16:48:23 I think spot's idea is best. 16:48:29 Keep in mind one more thing here: We have NO way to ensure that these groups will not register and use the domain. The only way would for Red Hat to take them to court. Which is something done only in very, very extreme circumstances. 16:48:43 stickster: there is still a budgetary issue with .xx domains, in that 1) we can't really afford to buy them across all locales, and 2) we do not have a donation framework to allow the local community to offset the costs 16:48:49 glezos: But with the trust we put in people, I'm sure that's not going to be the case. 16:48:52 and i'm inclined to trust the community on that point. we could script that check if you don't trust them. 16:48:53 So in my ears, the whole discussion leads only to extra trouble and red tape, and no real guarantees. 16:49:21 * poelcat isn't clear... fedora would hold TM to both domains .xx and xx.f.o ? 16:49:33 glezos: saying "well, the community can register whatever, and we'd have to sue them" seems sort of a defeatist attitude to me 16:49:40 poelcat, we hold the trademark; we don't hold the domain ownership of .xx 16:49:48 spot: i think that is perfectly ok. but can easily be removed if someone leaves and decides to cause trouble 16:49:54 mdomsch: right, just going to clarify that 16:49:57 poelcat: We're not really discussing the option of buying them a domain 16:50:17 notting: my point is that it will never happen from our community. And even WITH the controls suggested, if someone wants to do harm, he'll do it anyway. 16:50:17 dgilmore: if someone decides to cause trouble, we'll pursue legal action. 16:50:24 spot: without us having the control of the .xx domain its much harder to enforce 16:50:26 So we're putting more burden to the good people and we're not catching the real bad people. 16:50:33 if we don't hold ownership of .xx then redirect could be changed w/o us knowing... but maybe this is getting off in the weeds 16:50:49 I think we should center in on one way to do this, and spot's way makes sense to me. We license the .th domain to that community, and request that they alias it to th.fedoracommunity.org -- did I capture that correctly, spot? 16:51:04 s/request/requier/ 16:51:06 require 16:51:13 Rephrasing: If we *make* our community to use *.FCo domains, they'll do it. But the bad guys will create local domains and use them anyway. 16:51:27 I think we should further require them to use the 'th.fedoracommunity.org' site name in publicity so that there's some assurance of continuity 16:51:31 glezos: and there are policies for that 16:51:41 * glezos is reminded of the airport checks for finger clippers now. 16:51:50 "locks are to keep good people honest"? 16:51:58 glezos: I don't buy this idea of mythical bad guys. We're approaching this purely from the practical standpoint of continuity, IMHO. 16:52:25 stickster: can you reset the decision we are trying to move towards? i'm getting a little lost 16:52:28 if we require them to use th.fc.o in publicity 16:52:34 stickster: The local communities have my FULL trust that they'll figure out continuity and make great things happen. :) 16:52:41 and we require them to HTTP redirect from .th to th.fp.o 16:52:53 then what's the point of having the .th name in the first place again? 16:52:55 stickster: i don't care so much if they use th.fc.o in publicity or not, if there is an HTTP redirect. 16:53:06 spot: Ah, good point. 16:53:12 This is why I'm not a sys admin. 16:53:26 That's what FESCo is for :-) 16:53:27 it would be nice if they'd agree to transfer DNS ownership to us 16:53:34 mdomsch: there's no reason, you are right, so I don't think this idea is good. 16:53:54 glezos: given the recent centos.org domain registration kerfluffle, i don't feel confident having full trust, if the domain is registered to any one particular local community person 16:54:10 spot: why wouldn't we trust eg. the local leader of Fedora to have the DNS ownership? These guys have spent man-months for our project and a ton of money and energy. 16:54:13 spot, over time, wouldn't we then be required to pay for any such domains someone wanted to craete and then transfer to us? 16:54:16 notting: i agree with you 16:54:17 glezos: lance davis. 16:54:26 that's why we wouldn't. 16:54:33 spot: I'm sure if he wants to step away he'll agree to transfer the ownership to Fedora or the new local lead.er 16:54:37 So basically, my proposal is this: If you want to have permission to use the fedora trademark in a .xx country code specific name, that is fine, as long as it redirects to the xx.fedoracommunity.org page. 16:54:56 * caillon is sort of saddened that the websites stuff is not going to come up in today's meeting due to time 16:55:15 spot, agreed 16:55:40 So just to be clear, you guys are proposing that we change the domain guidelines overall? 16:55:52 glezos: it depends on the terms and reasons he is leaving 16:55:54 spot: which is then redirected to some non fp.o-hosted site designated by 'the local community' (in total) 16:56:07 stickster: how does this change from the current guidelines? 16:56:13 glezos: if its not the most plesent of terms he/she could be nasty about it 16:56:15 notting: i'm not sure how they'd manage that one. 16:56:25 My argument is that the local community trust and empowerment is greater than the risk we're taking. 16:56:33 notting: but even if they did, we would deal with that anyways 16:56:40 Right now we offer a choice and leave it up to the community member(s) to decide whether they want to seek a domain license for a .xx domain, or use a xx.fc.o domain instead. 16:56:53 spot: well, xx.fc.o is just some non fedora site, where we set the DNS to 'something the local community asks us to set it to' 16:57:20 I have a question: Why don't we ask the community itself? Maybe we could get a good suggestion out of the discussion. 16:57:21 notting: okay. i don't care which way the redirect works honestly. 16:57:30 as long as they're equivalent 16:58:00 glezos: spot: Why don't you guys work to create a proposal on the wiki that we can decide on in the next meeting. Publicize on FAB and we'll invite input that way. 16:58:32 stickster: I'm wondering why we are having this discussion, since there is the license agreement the person is required to sign. We could put in the agreement "Should you fail to follow these terms after a period of time, you agree to transfer the domain to X." 17:00:09 glezos: We're having it because the applicant didn't really make a choice but wants to do both 17:00:25 Let's revisit this next week after some more discussion on the FAB list. 17:00:31 stickster: then let's deny "both" and remind him that he can choose one of the two. 17:01:11 +1 for revisiting after a FAB discussion. I'll bootstrap the discussion. 17:01:27 stickster, +1 17:01:32 #action glezos to ask .th community member to revisit the Local community domains page, and ask him to choose an option. 17:01:44 #topic Q&A 17:01:45 glezos, I think you raise good points about trust and empowerment 17:02:03 I realize we're cutting over the hour, but let's see what's in the Q&A queue. 17:02:20 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/TomCallaway/FedoraCommunityWebsites 17:03:25 can we go over an hour? 17:03:26 * notting can 17:03:30 * stickster can 17:03:36 * dgilmore can 17:03:37 my stomach is growling, but i can 17:03:44 i can 17:03:49 * glezos can 17:03:49 i can for 15 minutes only 17:03:56 yep 17:04:59 do we have or should we have ... 17:05:14 guidelines for durable goods vendors who want to sell Fedora-branded goods 17:05:34 and are willing to do transaparent bookkeeping, profit sharing by supporting regional events, etc. 17:05:37 ? 17:06:14 We currently do not, because one of the purposes of TM protection is to make sure the TM is not associated with substandard goods or services. Therefore it behooves the TM holder to keep an eye on what's being branded and that it's of sufficient quality. (Q.v. earlier discussion about Russian Fedora and non-software goods branding.) 17:06:17 But 17:06:41 That isn't to say it's not possible to do so, and I've been looking into this precisely because of Russian Fedora's request. 17:06:51 we've done this, in essence, for media for a number of years. 17:07:07 Yes, but media are specifically granted an exemption in the TM guidelines. On purpose. 17:07:16 OK 17:07:29 If you're giving out official Fedora media, you're automatically permitted to use the Fedora trademark on it. 17:07:45 There are many other uses we now provide for in the TM guidelines. 17:07:46 despite quality of goods? 17:07:46 and we don't say how much you can charge for that 17:08:22 (that being a supply/demand driven pricepoint for what is presumed to be a commodity) 17:08:22 quaid: There's a limited variance in what the quality of goods could be for, say, a CD. It works or it doesn't, and there's very little value imparted from that to Fedora as a whole. 17:08:29 ok, then, just a request that we specifically address this in some way, even if the answer is, "Engage in a relationship via f-a-b so we can learn you are cool and will do as you say, etc." 17:08:46 perhaps as an outfall of the Russia-related work. 17:08:56 quaid: Exactly. We have usually denied random requests from people to sell Fedora schwag and give us a cut of the profits. 17:09:37 stickster: right, just looking for an enumeration transparently of how one can overcome that situation, so we can point people there, etc. 17:09:55 17:11:39 is there a contract with BrandFuel for Fedora items at this current time, if so when does that contract end? 17:12:20 Yes, and I don't know. 17:12:39 Southern_Gentlem: why do you ask? 17:12:45 There is, and it's not exclusive AFAIK. 17:12:49 and that contract is through Redhat and not the Fedora project? 17:13:14 Southern_Gentlem: "Fedora project" is not a legal entity. 17:13:19 can't sign contracts. :) 17:13:23 Southern_Gentlem: Since this isn't a court of law, can you give us some background so we can answer more fully where needed? 17:14:00 stickster, you mainly answered my question that it is not exclusive 17:14:07 * stickster likes to take opportunities to be clear where possible, since he sometimes doesn't do well at it 17:14:28 Southern_Gentlem: why do you ask? 17:14:50 Brand Fuel is sort of a pre-existing business relationship Red Hat has had for 100 31715 100 31715 0 0 64127 0 --:--:-- --:--:-- --:--:-- 73414 a while. Red Hat took the opportunity early in the Fedora Project's existence to use that relationship to provide some schwag. 17:15:11 dgilmore, there are alot of people in the community who would like to produce a fedora store type situation where Fedora goods could be sold 17:15:24 It's generally very high quality, but it's also a bit expensive in some people's estimation. So it's good that we aren't bound to use or buy Brand Fuel only. 17:15:34 it's also got a limited selection 17:15:39 caillon, indeed 17:15:40 caillon: Very true! 17:15:56 Southern_Gentlem: I'd like to think that was true, but the experience over the past few years in the Fedora Marketing team seems to indicate otherwise. 17:16:04 Here's what I think -- 17:16:04 stickster, in the past the quaility of items from brandfuel has been very questionable 17:16:29 I guess we'll have to agree to disagree there. My experience is the opposite. 17:16:32 But regardless.. 17:17:15 I think if we want a store, then we should do something that gregdek suggested earlier, which is simply get proper licensing set up, and a no-profit site through CafePress or somewhere agreeable. 17:18:06 stickster: pre-existing, 'local-ish' relationship 17:18:13 stickster: ew, cafepress? (speaking of quality) 17:18:14 notting: *nod 17:18:21 Yeah, I'm not touting CafePress, don't get me wrong. 17:18:24 * glezos agrees with the KISS principle. 17:18:57 We still have to deal with the trademark issues, but I'm sure that can be managed. 17:19:41 The easy answer might be for someone at Red Hat to set up the store to assuage any worries about the trademark licensing, and move forward from there. 17:20:02 We haven't wanted to do that before because of the desire to have the entire process, from supplier to shipping, be transparent like Fedora is. 17:20:17 stickster: sure. I guess knowing what products people want might help also 17:20:24 But that nut is apparently very difficult to crack, or else it would have been done any of the previous times people have tried. 17:20:36 * spot has to bail, i really need to eat lunch... 17:20:39 dgilmore: The nice thing about a pre-fab store is, it doesn't matter -- most of them provide everything people want. 17:20:48 OK, we're well into b'storm mode anyway. 17:21:30 The next public IRC meeting is scheduled for 2009-09-03, but the Red Hat Summit is then and at least one of us (me) won't be available. 17:21:38 #topic next meeting 17:21:52 I'll bring this up on FAB and suggest we reschedule for 2009-09-10. 17:22:09 #action stickster to go to FAB with next public IRC date of 2009-09-10 17:22:23 Thanks everyone for coming, I'll stick around for a few in #f-b-q for follow-up 17:22:30 #endmeeting - -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFKe0+GrNvJN70RNxcRAgwuAKD2sWkYyQO9BOaGwCJsY/cPTwNfdgCcD+u6 TJU9K63PKpV5unYWj8CHkyA= =Q+0f -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From stickster at gmail.com Thu Aug 6 21:50:56 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 17:50:56 -0400 Subject: Board IRC Meeting 2009-08-06 Summary Message-ID: <20090806215056.GH3859@localhost.localdomain> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 ============================= #fedora-board-meeting Meeting ============================= Meeting started by stickster at 16:02:49 UTC. The `full logs`_ are available. .. _`full logs`: fedora-board-meeting.2009-08-06-16.02.log.html Meeting log - ----------- * **Introduction** (stickster-16:04:10_) * **roll call** (stickster-16:06:04_) * **Russian Fedora initiative** (stickster-16:08:36_) * *INFO*: Awaiting contact back from Legal and Russian Fedora reps (stickster-16:16:54_) * *ACTION*: stickster to continue follow-up responsibilities (stickster-16:17:10_) * **BitTorrent stats counter** (stickster-16:17:24_) * *LINK*: https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/1456 (stickster-16:17:56_) * *LINK*: https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/1456 (stickster-16:18:00_) * *LINK*: http://downloadstats.mozilla.com/ (glezos-16:23:33_) * *LINK*: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Statistics (stickster-16:26:03_) * *ACTION*: glezos to talk to ianweller, skvidal, lmacken to move this item forward for better stats tracking and presentation. (stickster-16:27:25_) * **Extended Life Cycle** (stickster-16:27:43_) * *ACTION*: Close ELC issue until proposal is refined as requested. (stickster-16:36:16_) * **Thai community request from FAB** (stickster-16:36:23_) * *ACTION*: glezos to ask .th community member to revisit the Local community domains page, and ask him to choose an option. (stickster-17:01:32_) * **Q&A** (stickster-17:01:44_) * *LINK*: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/TomCallaway/FedoraCommunityWebsites (spot-17:02:20_) * **next meeting** (stickster-17:21:38_) * *ACTION*: stickster to go to FAB with next public IRC date of 2009-09-10 (stickster-17:22:09_) .. _stickster-16:04:10: fedora-board-meeting.2009-08-06-16.02.log.html#l-4 .. _stickster-16:06:04: fedora-board-meeting.2009-08-06-16.02.log.html#l-9 .. _stickster-16:08:36: fedora-board-meeting.2009-08-06-16.02.log.html#l-21 .. _stickster-16:16:54: fedora-board-meeting.2009-08-06-16.02.log.html#l-42 .. _stickster-16:17:10: fedora-board-meeting.2009-08-06-16.02.log.html#l-43 .. _stickster-16:17:24: fedora-board-meeting.2009-08-06-16.02.log.html#l-44 .. _stickster-16:17:56: fedora-board-meeting.2009-08-06-16.02.log.html#l-47 .. _stickster-16:18:00: fedora-board-meeting.2009-08-06-16.02.log.html#l-48 .. _glezos-16:23:33: fedora-board-meeting.2009-08-06-16.02.log.html#l-81 .. _stickster-16:26:03: fedora-board-meeting.2009-08-06-16.02.log.html#l-99 .. _stickster-16:27:25: fedora-board-meeting.2009-08-06-16.02.log.html#l-107 .. _stickster-16:27:43: fedora-board-meeting.2009-08-06-16.02.log.html#l-108 .. _stickster-16:36:16: fedora-board-meeting.2009-08-06-16.02.log.html#l-147 .. _stickster-16:36:23: fedora-board-meeting.2009-08-06-16.02.log.html#l-148 .. _stickster-17:01:32: fedora-board-meeting.2009-08-06-16.02.log.html#l-263 .. _stickster-17:01:44: fedora-board-meeting.2009-08-06-16.02.log.html#l-264 .. _spot-17:02:20: fedora-board-meeting.2009-08-06-16.02.log.html#l-267 .. _stickster-17:21:38: fedora-board-meeting.2009-08-06-16.02.log.html#l-335 .. _stickster-17:22:09: fedora-board-meeting.2009-08-06-16.02.log.html#l-337 Meeting ended at 17:22:30 UTC. Action Items - ------------ * stickster to continue follow-up responsibilities * glezos to talk to ianweller, skvidal, lmacken to move this item forward for better stats tracking and presentation. * Close ELC issue until proposal is refined as requested. * glezos to ask .th community member to revisit the Local community domains page, and ask him to choose an option. * stickster to go to FAB with next public IRC date of 2009-09-10 Action Items, by person - ----------------------- * glezos * glezos to talk to ianweller, skvidal, lmacken to move this item forward for better stats tracking and presentation. * glezos to ask .th community member to revisit the Local community domains page, and ask him to choose an option. * skvidal * glezos to talk to ianweller, skvidal, lmacken to move this item forward for better stats tracking and presentation. * stickster * stickster to continue follow-up responsibilities * stickster to go to FAB with next public IRC date of 2009-09-10 * **UNASSIGNED** * Close ELC issue until proposal is refined as requested. People Present (lines said) - --------------------------- * stickster (132) * glezos (47) * spot (22) * notting (21) * jwb (21) * mdomsch (20) * poelcat (19) * skvidal (17) * dgilmore (15) * quaid (11) * caillon (9) * Southern_Gentlem (5) Generated by `MeetBot`_ .. _`MeetBot`: http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot - -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFKe1BArNvJN70RNxcRAqRNAKCoDPXvKxuHDH7DzLMiZsX+PrvDjwCfV8O1 S0T7CG+n5Wlh9bH7VFFGSJE= =3CSQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From poelstra at redhat.com Wed Aug 12 17:19:37 2009 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 10:19:37 -0700 Subject: get.fedoraproject.org redesign Message-ID: <4A82F9A9.9080703@redhat.com> Sorry, I lost the original thread to reply to. Could one of the requirements of the new site be to encompass information currently found at wiki pages like this? https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Download It seems that we have this information spread out in a lot of different places, including some of the official documentation. Having to maintain it in fewer places seems like a better way to go. John From stickster at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 17:53:38 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 13:53:38 -0400 Subject: get.fedoraproject.org redesign In-Reply-To: <4A82F9A9.9080703@redhat.com> References: <4A82F9A9.9080703@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20090812175338.GL3985@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 10:19:37AM -0700, John Poelstra wrote: > Sorry, I lost the original thread to reply to. > > Could one of the requirements of the new site be to encompass > information currently found at wiki pages like this? > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Download > > It seems that we have this information spread out in a lot of different > places, including some of the official documentation. Having to > maintain it in fewer places seems like a better way to go. I agree, this is one of those common problems with a wiki that is tolerable because of the ease of collaboration and flexibility it offers. You end up with too many pages duplicating information and in many cases aging badly. I note that in one of Mo Duffy's mockups, there's a clearly defined link that would be seen after starting a download: http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/page3.png Look at the leftmost widget ("What should I do with this ISO file?") and you'll see where the link would come from. I think incorporating this information onto a page on the website makes sense, since it doesn't need to change often. That page shouldn't need to reflect release-specific information or links to downloads. (You'd be looking at the new page *subsequent* to downloading.) It bears pointing out that the information most important to end-users is already maintained by the Documentation team here: http://docs.fedoraproject.org/installation-quick-start-guide/f11/en-US/html/ http://docs.fedoraproject.org/install-guide/f11/en-US/html/ The first one is where you'd want most new users to go, esp. in light of the simplified route to the default Live image. The second contains all the information needed to use Anaconda in the case of a general installation. That [[Download]] wiki page seems like an evolution of an old page from the original Fedora site that always had significant problems. It tries to hit too many targets at once and falls short of a lot of them at this point, because it's been overtaken by other routes to the same information. A well designed website shouldn't require most of what's on that page. It should be easy to download Fedora, verify the disc with the functions already on the image, and run it right away without having to drill down into link farms. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From stickster at gmail.com Wed Aug 12 18:31:02 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 14:31:02 -0400 Subject: Next public IRC meeting date change Message-ID: <20090812183102.GM3985@localhost.localdomain> Generally the Board uses the first scheduled meeting of the month for a public IRC session. However, because the Red Hat summit will prevent some Board members from attending (including me), we'll reschedule next month's IRC session for 2009-09-10, at the normal time of 1600 UTC (12:00 noon EDT/9:00am PDT). -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From dimitris at glezos.com Wed Aug 12 19:13:05 2009 From: dimitris at glezos.com (Dimitris Glezos) Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 19:13:05 +0000 Subject: Community domain request In-Reply-To: <777698920908030603p61b1c674rab58b8d0519f3ec0@mail.gmail.com> References: <777698920908030603p61b1c674rab58b8d0519f3ec0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6d4237680908121213h68d6fd5bk7acc530573bf7806@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 1:03 PM, Manatsawin wrote: > To whom it may concern, > > I have recently promoted to be a Fedora Ambassador. Therefor I would like to > create a Fedora community website in Thailand and publish Fedora news and > knowledge to Thais. I would like to request approval to use > th.fedoracommunity.org and fedora.in.th which the latter one purchasing will > be done by myself. I have created a mockup at thf.mine.nu (but on live > hosting) > Website team:?Myself, and Mr. Anoochit Chalothorn?(another Fedora > Ambassador) > Services: ? ? ? ?Blog, Planet, Forum > DNS Record:?? A ? ? ?203.150.228.104 > ?? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?MX 5 mx.openfreehost.com Dear Anoochit and Manatsawin, Converning the domain of the Thai Fedora Community, it will be much clearer if you chose one of the two proposed domains, either th.fedoracommunity.org or fedora.org.th. Having a single point of entry for a local community our preferred way. Having this answer will allow us to proceed and help you guys start building up our local community as soon as possible! -d -- Dimitris Glezos Transifex: The Multilingual Publishing Revolution http://www.transifex.net/ -- http://www.indifex.com/ From stickster at gmail.com Fri Aug 14 18:18:38 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 14:18:38 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board Rercap 2009-08-13 UTC 1600 Message-ID: <20090814181838.GP3504@localhost.localdomain> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meeting:Board_meeting_2009-08-13 == Roll Call == Present: Josh Boyer, John Poelstra, Paul Frields, Matt Domsch, Tom 'spot' Callaway, Dennis Gilmore Regrets: Dimitris Glezos, Bill Nottingham, Mike McGrath == Last meeting == https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meeting:Board_meeting_2009-08-06 == Agenda == === Russian Fedora Initiative === https://fedorahosted.org/board/ticket/11 * LAST STATUS: ** Paul to first resolve questions with RH Legal about non-software goods licensing * UPDATE: ** Non-software goods license approved by Legal ** Awaiting contact back from Alexey to create agreements; email on 2009-08-12 === Thai community domain === https://fedorahosted.org/board/ticket/23 * STATUS: ** Dimitris to ask Thai community rep to choose an option of the two possible * UPDATE: ** Request sent: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2009-August/msg00027.html * Regardless of response, th.fc.o pointer is a good idea... ticket to FI === Spins and Download site redesign === https://fedorahosted.org/board/ticket/24 * STATUS: ** Threads on FAB found here: *** https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2009-July/msg00088.html *** https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2009-August/msg00020.html ** Mockups found here: *** http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/ * UPDATE: ** Wiki page created here: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Website_redesign_2009 ** Have the requirements been developed successfully? *** Target audiences proposed *** Some comments on driving community participation, task oriented *** Some requirements also found in Board notes here: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meeting:Board_meeting_2009-07-30 ** Do mockups show progress toward the desired goal? *** Board should provide feedback now to minimize drag **** Descriptions about download methods (torrents, direct FTP/HTTP, metalinks) and provide all those methods somehow. **** Sometimes too much information on a page? **** The pages are trying to grow the total appeal of Fedora, with the goal of increasing contributor stickiness **** possibility of packaged behaviors to affect spins ** poelstra: thought: to more objectively review the mock-ups shouldn't we be able to take the "requirements" and compare them to the pages... almost in a checklist type way? I think the wiki page is a good way to sum up the requirements to aid in this big improvements # logo and branding is very clear # much more simplified definition of what people can expect # clear call to action for download # makes a personal connection ;-) # shows that Fedora is "fun" or "cool" #* cool and fun can encourage more people to become involved # publicly proclaim what we do well == Next Meeting == * PROPOSED: 2009-08-20 UTC 1600 ** caillon cannot make it -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From caillon at redhat.com Fri Aug 14 20:32:26 2009 From: caillon at redhat.com (Christopher Aillon) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 13:32:26 -0700 Subject: Fedora Board Rercap 2009-08-13 UTC 1600 In-Reply-To: <20090814181838.GP3504@localhost.localdomain> References: <20090814181838.GP3504@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4A85C9DA.5040602@redhat.com> On 08/14/2009 11:18 AM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meeting:Board_meeting_2009-08-13 > > == Roll Call == > Present: Josh Boyer, John Poelstra, Paul Frields, Matt Domsch, Tom 'spot' Callaway, Dennis Gilmore > > Regrets: Dimitris Glezos, Bill Nottingham, Mike McGrath Hm, I attended, even though apparently I got kicked out of the secret club.... From poelstra at redhat.com Fri Aug 14 20:40:17 2009 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 13:40:17 -0700 Subject: Fedora Board Rercap 2009-08-13 UTC 1600 In-Reply-To: <4A85C9DA.5040602@redhat.com> References: <20090814181838.GP3504@localhost.localdomain> <4A85C9DA.5040602@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4A85CBB1.7080503@redhat.com> Christopher Aillon said the following on 08/14/2009 01:32 PM Pacific Time: > On 08/14/2009 11:18 AM, Paul W. Frields wrote: >> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meeting:Board_meeting_2009-08-13 >> >> == Roll Call == >> Present: Josh Boyer, John Poelstra, Paul Frields, Matt Domsch, Tom >> 'spot' Callaway, Dennis Gilmore >> >> Regrets: Dimitris Glezos, Bill Nottingham, Mike McGrath > > > Hm, I attended, even though apparently I got kicked out of the secret > club.... > Next time we'll let you log into Gobby ;-) John From stickster at gmail.com Fri Aug 14 21:09:35 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 17:09:35 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board Rercap 2009-08-13 UTC 1600 In-Reply-To: <4A85C9DA.5040602@redhat.com> References: <20090814181838.GP3504@localhost.localdomain> <4A85C9DA.5040602@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20090814210935.GU3504@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, Aug 14, 2009 at 01:32:26PM -0700, Christopher Aillon wrote: > On 08/14/2009 11:18 AM, Paul W. Frields wrote: >> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meeting:Board_meeting_2009-08-13 >> >> == Roll Call == >> Present: Josh Boyer, John Poelstra, Paul Frields, Matt Domsch, Tom 'spot' Callaway, Dennis Gilmore >> >> Regrets: Dimitris Glezos, Bill Nottingham, Mike McGrath > > > Hm, I attended, even though apparently I got kicked out of the secret > club.... I'll fix the wiki! No ill intent, I assure you. :-) -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From stickster at gmail.com Tue Aug 18 16:01:49 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 12:01:49 -0400 Subject: Announcing FUDCon Toronto 2009 Message-ID: <20090818160149.GN3817@localhost.localdomain> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Thanks to the dedicated efforts of some of our ardent fans and friends in the Fedora community in the great nation of Canada, we are heading across the border for the next North American Fedora Users and Developers Conference (FUDCon)! The next FUDCon will happen December 5-7, 2009, in Toronto, Canada at the Seneca @York campus. Over the next few days planners will be setting up more information at the event wiki page: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FUDCon:Toronto_2009 As you may know, FUDCon travels around the globe during the year. In the summer we had not just one but *two* separate FUDCon events. One was held in Latin America around the world-famous FISL conference. The other occurred around the equally important LinuxTag event in Berlin, Germany. We have held many North American FUDCons of the past in Boston, Massachusetts, and we wanted to try a different location for this event. Now you might be asking yourself, why are we going north in the winter? Well, as some of you know -- especially people who talk with me and Max Spevack, the Red Hat manager of community architecture -- FUDCon planning is an enormous undertaking for one person. We look at FUDCon partly as something Red Hat can give back to the community a few times a year, beyond resources or people. But we also need to be realize when we need assistance to get FUDCon planned and executed, so we can continue to scale our event efforts. Key community members in the Toronto area had been asking us for some time about holding a FUDCon in Toronto. They were able to provide an ideal location, in terms of size, space, layout, flexibility, and network infrastructure. They also know of our penchant for bringing wifi to its knees anywhere we travel, and planning accordingly! Furthermore, since there's a Red Hat office in Toronto, we can look forward to a core of engineers who will bring their experience and subject matter expertise to FUDCon. Because many of them have not attended a FUDCon before, there should be many fascinating new talks and hackfests happening at this event. There will be more details about FUDCon Toronto 2009 over the next few days -- we will be trying some new things this time out, to make this event as inclusive and appealing as possible. More on that later. For now, I encourage everyone in the US and elsewhere who plans to attend to make sure that you have your passports or other travel documentation ready to go! For those of you in the US, you can find passport information here: http://travel.state.gov/passport/ - -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFKitBtrNvJN70RNxcRAgGBAKD7aob2O6wLb49RlhcutAr5kqsUJgCcCaWC uD/xNUTZkQ0ur2fdMxnjVRE= =Yhpe -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From manatsawin at gmail.com Fri Aug 14 13:11:18 2009 From: manatsawin at gmail.com (Manatsawin) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 20:11:18 +0700 Subject: Community domain request In-Reply-To: <6d4237680908121213h68d6fd5bk7acc530573bf7806@mail.gmail.com> References: <777698920908030603p61b1c674rab58b8d0519f3ec0@mail.gmail.com> <6d4237680908121213h68d6fd5bk7acc530573bf7806@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <777698920908140611t54d56a7cr3d2b8b5dd32e698e@mail.gmail.com> To the Advisory Board, I prefer fedora*.in*.th for the website's domain. Regards, Manatsawin On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 2:13 AM, Dimitris Glezos wrote: > On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 1:03 PM, Manatsawin wrote: > > To whom it may concern, > > > > I have recently promoted to be a Fedora Ambassador. Therefor I would like > to > > create a Fedora community website in Thailand and publish Fedora news and > > knowledge to Thais. I would like to request approval to use > > th.fedoracommunity.org and fedora.in.th which the latter one purchasing > will > > be done by myself. I have created a mockup at thf.mine.nu (but on live > > hosting) > > Website team: Myself, and Mr. Anoochit Chalothorn (another Fedora > > Ambassador) > > Services: Blog, Planet, Forum > > DNS Record: A 203.150.228.104 > > MX 5 mx.openfreehost.com > > > Dear Anoochit and Manatsawin, > > Converning the domain of the Thai Fedora Community, it will be much > clearer if you chose one of the two proposed domains, either > th.fedoracommunity.org or fedora.org.th. Having a single point of > entry for a local community our preferred way. > > Having this answer will allow us to proceed and help you guys start > building up our local community as soon as possible! > > -d > > > > > -- > Dimitris Glezos > > Transifex: The Multilingual Publishing Revolution > http://www.transifex.net/ -- http://www.indifex.com/ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From luciano at fedora.org.br Tue Aug 18 21:05:22 2009 From: luciano at fedora.org.br (Luciano Souza) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 18:05:22 -0300 Subject: Community fedora Brazil, http://www.fedora.org.br. Message-ID: Hello, my name is Luciano I am the founder of community fedora Brazil, http://www.fedora.org.br. My English is not good, desulpe! I am coming into contact fedora.org.br to regularize the field that is always in the air since 10/2004 helping Brazilian users of fedora linux. We would like to continue using the area so we are writing, we idependentes of fedoraproject and are the users who build the site's content, we are totally responsible about what is published on the site of all its contents. Added a footnote explaining that the site is maintained by people who use and like the fedora and the project has no relationships. We would like to continue with this idependencia I ask you to please let me know if and assess the conditions. Thanks -- -- Luciano Aprenda mais na comunidade brasileira de usu?rios Linux. http://www.fedora.org.br Antes de usar um copo descart?vel pense na Natureza. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From itamar at ispbrasil.com.br Wed Aug 19 11:41:44 2009 From: itamar at ispbrasil.com.br (Itamar Reis Peixoto) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 08:41:44 -0300 Subject: Community fedora Brazil, http://www.fedora.org.br. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: if you english is not good, then contact "Rodrigo Padula de Oliveira" , I believe you need to sign something and send to redhat to continue with your domain name. On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 6:05 PM, Luciano Souza wrote: > Hello, my name is Luciano I am the founder of community fedora Brazil, > http://www.fedora.org.br. > My English is not good, desulpe! > I am coming into contact fedora.org.br to regularize the field that is > always in the air since 10/2004 helping Brazilian users of fedora linux. > We would like to continue using the area so we are writing, we idependentes > of fedoraproject and are the users who build the site's content, we are > totally responsible about what is published on the site of all its contents. > > Added a footnote explaining that the site is maintained by people who use > and like the fedora and the project has no relationships. > > We would like to continue with this idependencia I ask you to please let me > know if and assess the conditions. > > Thanks > > -- > -- > Luciano > Aprenda mais na comunidade brasileira de usu?rios Linux. > http://www.fedora.org.br > Antes de usar um copo descart?vel pense na Natureza. > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board > > -- ------------ Itamar Reis Peixoto e-mail/msn: itamar at ispbrasil.com.br sip: itamar at ispbrasil.com.br skype: itamarjp icq: 81053601 +55 11 4063 5033 +55 34 3221 8599 From stickster at gmail.com Wed Aug 19 13:39:03 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 09:39:03 -0400 Subject: Community fedora Brazil, http://www.fedora.org.br. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090819133903.GG4942@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 06:05:22PM -0300, Luciano Souza wrote: > Hello, my name is Luciano I am the founder of community fedora Brazil, http:// > www.fedora.org.br. > My English is not good, desulpe! > I am coming into contact fedora.org.br to regularize the field that is always > in the air since 10/2004 helping Brazilian users of fedora linux. > We would like to continue using the area so we are writing, we idependentes of > fedoraproject and are the users who build the site's content, we are totally > responsible about what is published on the site of all its contents. > > Added a footnote explaining that the site is maintained by people who use and > like the fedora and the project has no relationships. > > We would like to continue with this idependencia I ask you to please let me > know if and assess the conditions. Thanks for contacting us, Luciano. The Fedora Board is interested in extending a domain name license to the ASL for this site. There are some adjustments needed to meet our trademark guidelines and other requirements, but they should not be difficult to accomplish. I'll send you and the domain owner a separate email with some details from the Board and we can proceed from there. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From stickster at gmail.com Wed Aug 19 13:43:41 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 09:43:41 -0400 Subject: Community fedora Brazil, http://www.fedora.org.br. In-Reply-To: <20090819133903.GG4942@localhost.localdomain> References: <20090819133903.GG4942@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20090819134341.GH4942@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 09:39:03AM -0400, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Tue, Aug 18, 2009 at 06:05:22PM -0300, Luciano Souza wrote: > > Hello, my name is Luciano I am the founder of community fedora Brazil, http:// > > www.fedora.org.br. > > My English is not good, desulpe! > > I am coming into contact fedora.org.br to regularize the field that is always > > in the air since 10/2004 helping Brazilian users of fedora linux. > > We would like to continue using the area so we are writing, we idependentes of > > fedoraproject and are the users who build the site's content, we are totally > > responsible about what is published on the site of all its contents. > > > > Added a footnote explaining that the site is maintained by people who use and > > like the fedora and the project has no relationships. > > > > We would like to continue with this idependencia I ask you to please let me > > know if and assess the conditions. > > Thanks for contacting us, Luciano. The Fedora Board is interested in > extending a domain name license to the ASL for this site. There are > some adjustments needed to meet our trademark guidelines and other > requirements, but they should not be difficult to accomplish. I'll > send you and the domain owner a separate email with some details from > the Board and we can proceed from there. I did have one other question, Luciano -- can you tell me to what extent the Fedora Ambassadors in Brazil are involved in the fedora.org.br site? -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From stickster at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 15:33:54 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 11:33:54 -0400 Subject: Website mockups Message-ID: <20090820153354.GA12829@localhost.localdomain> Mo Duffy has been publishing mockups that the Board has been reviewing and discussing, to see how they are meeting the requirements discussed here on the list. Those requirements need to be gathered on a page for easier reference, and I'll be working on that later this week. In the meantime, I wanted to note that the most current mockups have been meeting with general Board approval. I'd like to suggest that the Board have an additional public IRC meeting next week during our regular meeting time (2009-08-27, UTC 1600) to go over the designs, and suggest any changes needed. That way the redesign can proceed apace. In the release readiness meeting, Mo and Ricky noted that their general consensus was that they could meet a F12 rollout by using the templating system currently in use on the Fedora website: http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/logistics/2009-August/000170.html Thanks to the folks who have made thoughtful suggestions about the site redesign and are working on material for the various rotation widgets. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From stickster at gmail.com Thu Aug 20 18:26:32 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 14:26:32 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2009-08-20 UTC 1600 Message-ID: <20090820182632.GF12829@localhost.localdomain> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meeting:Board_meeting_2009-08-20 == Roll Call == * Present: Josh Boyer, Matt Domsch, Paul Frields, Dennis Gilmore, Dimitris Glezos, Mike McGrath, Bill Nottingham, John Poelstra, Tom Callaway * Regrets: Christopher Aillon == Agenda == === FUDCon Update === * Dec. 5-7 in Toronto (see announcement) ** Technical sessions Saturday, hackfests on Sunday & Monday ** intentionally adding a user track ** some pre-vetted talks in addition to barcamp-style sessions ** Board will schedule a face-to-face meeting at FUDCon Toronto 2009 ** Other information to follow soon, logistics thru Paul and Mel Chua === Russian Fedora Initiative === * LAST STATUS: ** Non-software goods license approved by Legal ** Awaiting contact back from Alexey to create agreements; email on 2009-08-12 * UPDATE: ** No change === Thai community domain === * STATUS: ** Dimitris asked Thai community rep to choose an option of the two possible ** Respondent asked for fedora.in.th domain usage * UPDATE: ** Paul to prepare TM license === Brazilian Fedora site === * STATUS: ** Board requests specific changes to accommodate licensing ** Link to projetofedora.org and name change to indicate status * UPDATE: ** Note to ASL and fedora.org.br maintainer setting out requirements for license ** Changes requested by 2009-09-10 (~3 weeks) ** Spot has talked with site maintainer, meeting requirements not expected to be a problem === Spins and Download site redesign === * STATUS: ** FAB threads have been quiet ** Paul requested Board members to discuss on FAB -- no updates last week * UPDATE: ** Wiki page created here: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Website_redesign_2009 ** Paul has filled it in somewhat ** Need some official word from Board that mockups are approved thus far * ACTION: ** Set up IRC meeting next week (2009-08-27 UTC 1600 proposed) to go over them with Mo Duffy (& possibly Ricky Zhou) ** Paul to make announcement == New business == === Default Desktop === * Dennis directed the Board to http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2009-08/msg00548.html ** OpenSUSE will default to a KDE desktop radio button selection in DVD installer ** Fedora doesn't have such a stance on KDE ** At a previous meeting the Fedora Board made a decision to make the download page less confusing for end-users * ACTIONS: ** Dennis to extend invitation to KDE SIG to attend the IRC meeting (see above) when the design of the new web pages will be discussed further ** Encourage people who disagree with the current proposed design to bring constructive suggestions for improvement within the requirements already specified and discussed on fedora-advisory-board === Hall Monitor Update === * ACTIONS: ** Update on process to FAB for transparency ** Monitors to issue quarterly reports === General spin question === * (mmcgrath) Who approves different spins? ** Mike would like to treat net install like a spin and make a page for it, post-F12 ** Spins could potentially move to mirror space soon now that we have more space ** (group answer) The spins SIG does technical approval, and the Board approves trademarks ** The purpose is to better market the net installation ISO for general use * No Board action needed, just FYI and information gathering == Next meeting == * Proposed: 2009-08-27 UTC 1600 ** IRC Meeting with Design team ** Paul to send announcement ** John Poelstra on vacation all week -- will not be able to attend From jwboyer at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 12:06:56 2009 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 08:06:56 -0400 Subject: Hall Monitor update Message-ID: <20090821120656.GF20831@hansolo.jdub.homelinux.org> A brief update on the Hall Monitor policy. To date, we have sent two official warnings. One was for a comment in bugzilla, the other was for comments on the fedora-devel-list. The first case went away quietly, and the person being warned replied and acknowledged and has not had any further action. The second case resulted in a reply about censorship, and further negative comments were made in the original thread. That resulted in two actions. 1) That person was moderated for 3 days starting last August 14. 2) The thread itself was moderated due to further commentary that was not productive. The moderated person did not post again to fedora-devel-list over the weekend, and is no longer moderated as of Aug 17. The thread itself remains moderated. I approved two acceptable posts to it over the weekend. All of this is archived in the moderators mailing list, per policy. At this point, I can't say whether the policy is helping the tone of the lists or not. There have been a few threads that have gotten testy since we implemented it but I think the overall frequency of those is a bit less. The actual policy itself seems to be working, as unfortunate as it's necessity is. josh From markmc at redhat.com Fri Aug 21 13:10:35 2009 From: markmc at redhat.com (Mark McLoughlin) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 14:10:35 +0100 Subject: Hall Monitor update In-Reply-To: <20090821120656.GF20831@hansolo.jdub.homelinux.org> References: <20090821120656.GF20831@hansolo.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: <1250860235.3099.47.camel@blaa> Thanks for the nice update On Fri, 2009-08-21 at 08:06 -0400, Josh Boyer wrote: > All of this is archived in the moderators mailing list, per policy. I can't find this list or its archives. The policy suggests it's hall-monitors at lists.fedoraproject.org or something? Thanks, Mark. From rdieter at math.unl.edu Fri Aug 21 14:04:13 2009 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 09:04:13 -0500 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? Message-ID: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> OK, I get the idea behind all of this, really I do. Much of it is great, but let me share what's been nagging at the back of my mind for some time. It's just been hard to put into words, so I'll try my best here. Let's get back to the question: What is Fedora? I thought a general consensus was something akin to: a solid flexible base distro technology that can be used for many different purposes Then, look at the new website mockups. (perceived) Answer: Fedora is the fedora-desktop spin The KDE SIG, developers and users alike, for better or worse, draw this natural conclusion. It's a perceived step back from the status quo, where KDE is mentioned on the main download page anyway. We feel that the main download page mockups don't adequately reflect the scope of the Fedora project (i.e. its developer and user community) and that it would be beneficial for Fedora to properly advertise that scope. Especially for the classes of users identified as: People who are somewhat computer savvy, but may be new to Fedora and/or Linux and FOSS in general or People who don't know where to find anything other than the default offering (i.e., is there something else available?) These folks likely want to know more about the project scope, and (over)simplification is missing the opportunity to inform and educate them. -- Rex From tcallawa at redhat.com Fri Aug 21 14:15:18 2009 From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom "spot" Callaway) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 10:15:18 -0400 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> Message-ID: <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> On 08/21/2009 10:04 AM, Rex Dieter wrote: > Then, look at the new website mockups. > > (perceived) Answer: Fedora is the fedora-desktop spin Well, I think the point here is that for the new, uninformed user, we need to present them with a single default choice. Forcing them to choose between: GNOME, KDE, Games, LXCE, EDU, Electronics, Security ... the new uninformed user isn't going to be able to make a good choice there, and IMHO, the main download page is not the right place for each spin to make an elaborate argument as to why the new, uninformed user should download them instead. Now, for the other subset of users who are able to make a more intelligent choice, they should hit that download page and it should be clear that there are other Fedora configurations, and if they want to see all the options available, they can click here. That page is the place where all spins (including the Desktop spin) have the opportunity to sell themselves to the informed or at least savvy user, both with a short summary and then with their own set of pages dedicated to the spin. Perhaps that isn't obvious enough in Mo's mockup (http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/page2.png), if so, I'm sure she would appreciate the feedback. I also suggested the possibility of running "banner ads" for each of the spins, equally distributed, giving each spin an opportunity to promote itself (possibly even on the download page itself, if placed in a non-confusing way). ~spot From jwboyer at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 14:26:19 2009 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 10:26:19 -0400 Subject: Hall Monitor update In-Reply-To: <1250860235.3099.47.camel@blaa> References: <20090821120656.GF20831@hansolo.jdub.homelinux.org> <1250860235.3099.47.camel@blaa> Message-ID: <20090821142619.GH20831@hansolo.jdub.homelinux.org> On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 02:10:35PM +0100, Mark McLoughlin wrote: >Thanks for the nice update > >On Fri, 2009-08-21 at 08:06 -0400, Josh Boyer wrote: >> All of this is archived in the moderators mailing list, per policy. > >I can't find this list or its archives. The policy suggests it's >hall-monitors at lists.fedoraproject.org or something? The list and list archives are private, per policy. I have updated the policy to point to the actual list being used. Thanks for pointing that out. josh From stickster at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 14:32:02 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 10:32:02 -0400 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20090821143202.GJ3699@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 10:15:18AM -0400, Tom spot Callaway wrote: > I also suggested the possibility of running "banner ads" for each of the > spins, equally distributed, giving each spin an opportunity to promote > itself (possibly even on the download page itself, if placed in a > non-confusing way). There is even a space in the current mockup to do this (look for the community superhero guy). To clarify, this would be a rotating banner widget. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From rdieter at math.unl.edu Fri Aug 21 14:37:30 2009 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 09:37:30 -0500 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4A8EB12A.9030604@math.unl.edu> Tom "spot" Callaway wrote: > On 08/21/2009 10:04 AM, Rex Dieter wrote: >> Then, look at the new website mockups. >> >> (perceived) Answer: Fedora is the fedora-desktop spin > > Well, I think the point here is that for the new, uninformed user, we > need to present them with a single default choice. > > Forcing them to choose between: > GNOME, KDE, Games, LXCE, EDU, Electronics, Security One can still offer options, but have a choice pre-selected by default, akin to how some other distros are doing. But let's not get muddled in details. Let me be brutally honest: withholding choice and options here and/or diminishing kde's visibility *will* disenfranchise a lot of people. We'll lose out PR-wise big time, especially in light of opensuse's recent work that is largely perceived as doing right by the community. Is that a price the board is willing to pay? -- Rex From mmcgrath at redhat.com Fri Aug 21 14:52:25 2009 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 09:52:25 -0500 (CDT) Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <4A8EB12A.9030604@math.unl.edu> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> <4A8EB12A.9030604@math.unl.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Aug 2009, Rex Dieter wrote: > Tom "spot" Callaway wrote: > > On 08/21/2009 10:04 AM, Rex Dieter wrote: > > > Then, look at the new website mockups. > > > > > > (perceived) Answer: Fedora is the fedora-desktop spin > > > > Well, I think the point here is that for the new, uninformed user, we > > need to present them with a single default choice. > > > > Forcing them to choose between: > > GNOME, KDE, Games, LXCE, EDU, Electronics, Security > > One can still offer options, but have a choice pre-selected by default, akin > to how some other distros are doing. > > But let's not get muddled in details. > > Let me be brutally honest: withholding choice and options here and/or > diminishing kde's visibility *will* disenfranchise a lot of people. We'll lose > out PR-wise big time, especially in light of opensuse's recent work that is > largely perceived as doing right by the community. > > Is that a price the board is willing to pay? > I'm totally willing to admit that from an initial look it seems like the KDE guys are being screwed. This is _not_ the intention but is incidental to what we're trying to do. The board all agreed that the get.fedoraproject.org page was just a mess. The solution was to simplify it. In this simplification we decided to pick one default install (the same one we've always had). Even SuSE has now picked one default. Now the 'vision' stuff. We're kind of hoping the spins page (which will include KDE, the gnome spin and others) will become a strong way for the individual sigs to give a better indication on what the spin is, why one should download it, include pictures, videos, whatever to better market it. I'd ask the various spins, KDE included, to give this a solid shot. Imagine if the KDE spin was the _only_ spin. Now think about what that download page would look like. What types of information would be included with it. What types of marketing banners would you create, what kinds of marketing materials would you send out? Now, use that, work with the design team if you guys aren't able (I know I'm not). Give it an honest shot and lets see how it all works out for F12. If it's a complete failure (and it very well might be), lets look at why, what could be done to make it better. If there's nothing else to make it better, bring it back to the board and state why and we'll re-think it. Also, I feel I should say that I've never actually download the kde spin. I've always just selected it at install time from the netinstall media. -Mike From mairin at linuxgrrl.com Fri Aug 21 15:29:36 2009 From: mairin at linuxgrrl.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn?= Duffy) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 11:29:36 -0400 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <4A8EB12A.9030604@math.unl.edu> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> <4A8EB12A.9030604@math.unl.edu> Message-ID: <1250868576.3159.110.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2009-08-21 at 09:37 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote: > Tom "spot" Callaway wrote: > > On 08/21/2009 10:04 AM, Rex Dieter wrote: > >> Then, look at the new website mockups. > >> > >> (perceived) Answer: Fedora is the fedora-desktop spin > > > > Well, I think the point here is that for the new, uninformed user, we > > need to present them with a single default choice. > > > > Forcing them to choose between: > > GNOME, KDE, Games, LXCE, EDU, Electronics, Security > > One can still offer options, but have a choice pre-selected by default, > akin to how some other distros are doing. I think one of the main misunderstandings/miscommunications about this redesign is why we are doing it. The goals of this redesign, from my understanding, is: 1) To grow adoption of Fedora by new prospective users 2) To grow community involvement in Fedora by growing the base of users from which we can recruit community members. Let me remind you of one more goal I think we *all* share (and as sad as it may be, is certainly one of my main goals in life): 3) To grow the general acceptance and usage of free & open source software. With these goals in mind, it appears that rather than only catering to the current community base we have (which is inarguably extremely important), we need to also consider the users and community members we do not have in the design as we are basically trying to sell our software and our community to them (whom you do not seem to be considering.) So considering the 'newbie' case is more important with the goals stated above than it ever has been for our website before. Who do you know who dabbles in Linux or has always wanted to try it out? Think of that person. Imagine they are on the phone with you, and are asking you how they can get a copy of Fedora: Do they know what KDE is? Do they know what GNOME is? How simply and easily could you explain this to them, plus: - explain what the different HW architectures mean (a necessary evil we can't drop) - how to find out what their architecture is - what an ISO is and how to use it - what bittorrent is, and how to use a torrent file (and how to download and install a bittorrent client) - if they don't want to use bittorrent - what a download mirror is and how to use it - what the difference is between live media and a DVD and why they would want to download/use one or the other - how to upgrade - how to build a live USB stick instead I understand to you, adding KDE is 'just one more choice', but I hope the above illustrates it all is 'just one more' that adds up to just one big confusing mess than sends new users running screaming from our website to other distros (or giving up on Linux altogether!) Rather than making our download page a tome on desktop environments, spins, what architectures are and how to figure out yours, bittorrents vs mirrors vs direct, what an ISO is and how to use it, what live media is vs dvd - the proposal here is to pick one default that should work for everyone and eliminate the whole darn thing into just one unavoidable complication - what is an ISO and what do I do with it? (Windows, unlike OS X, does not handle burning ISOs by default and you need to install third-party tools to make a Fedora disc using Windows.) Since Linux does not have the market share I think we'd all like to see in an ideal world, btw, I don't think following what other distros are doing is (1) innovative (2) going to get us to where we want to be. Especially if those distros don't share our goals as a distro, and especially if the success of those distros' designs are unknown or not shared. If the goal is to increase free & open source software adoption and if the goal is to do that by spreading Fedora far & wide, wouldn't we be better off trying to be innovative of our own accord and maybe looking to the big players (OS X, Windows) to see what they do? > But let's not get muddled in details. > > Let me be brutally honest: withholding choice and options here and/or > diminishing kde's visibility *will* disenfranchise a lot of people. > We'll lose out PR-wise big time, especially in light of opensuse's > recent work that is largely perceived as doing right by the community. There is a clear trade-off here - either you "do wrong" by the community, or you "do wrong" by users who want to try your distro but run away screaming because you've confused and scared them. It seems easier to reject the latter folks because they're not here yet, but we'll fail if we don't continue to grow. If the current in-progress designs would disenfranchise current community members, let's work on a way to address that *without* scaring away new prospects a well. > > Is that a price the board is willing to pay? I think the board has made a statement that they would like to see us recruiting a wider user base rather than only catering to the people we already have in our community. I think a fair way to keep both current community members happy and to not scare away our potential users (and hopefully potential new community members) is: 1) By default, make the very first 'download' landing page dead simple for the newbies. Make it one-click and hard to screw up and easy-to-understand. 2) Have a very obvious 'If you know what you're doing, go over here' link on the main download landing page that takes you to a screen designed for the ideal 'already knows what their doing' user, giving them a full set of choices. For #1, this is (and it's absolutely a work-in-progress) the proposal on the table: http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/page2.png It would be accompanied by a page listing out the desktop spin in other architectures and with bittorrent links. this page (not mocked up as of yet, I'll try to work on it today) would also have information about obtaining physical media (free media program, directory of vendors) For #2, this is the spins page design (again, absolutely a work-in-progress) proposal: http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/spins-directory.6.png What I've been thinking about for this design based on feedback is to have two tabs that envelop the spin directory, one (the default) to be 'by popularity', and the other (second tab, non-default) to be 'in alphabetical order.) With this design each spin would also have it's own details page (I haven't updated the mock yet but here's a very very very old one: http://fedorapeople.org/groups/designteam/Projects/Fedora% 20Spins/Wireframes/spindetailsmock4.png ) With these details page, I think it would be easier for you trying to direct folks to download the KDE spin to tell them to go to kde.spins.fedoraproject.org or spins.fedoraproject.org/kde or get.fedoraproject.org/kde. Rather than navigating them thru get.fpo's many choices. As a maintainer of the KDE spin you could customize that page as well based on your userbase's needs. When Paul was in Westford recently, we brainstormed on this a bit and drew out a little site map diagram of what the structure of this would look like. Paul, I think you took a photo of that diagram on your phone, do you still have a copy? I think that might also make some of this design a little more clear. But if how I've explained it so far doesn't make sense and you've an alternative proposal please let me know, I am absolutely very open to suggestions and feedback. Hope this helps. ~m From a.badger at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 16:02:29 2009 From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 09:02:29 -0700 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4A8EC515.7060202@gmail.com> On 08/21/2009 07:15 AM, Tom "spot" Callaway wrote: > On 08/21/2009 10:04 AM, Rex Dieter wrote: >> Then, look at the new website mockups. >> >> (perceived) Answer: Fedora is the fedora-desktop spin > > Well, I think the point here is that for the new, uninformed user, we > need to present them with a single default choice. > > Forcing them to choose between: > > GNOME, KDE, Games, LXCE, EDU, Electronics, Security > > ... the new uninformed user isn't going to be able to make a good choice > there, and IMHO, the main download page is not the right place for each > spin to make an elaborate argument as to why the new, uninformed user > should download them instead. > I think that part of Rex's post was about this:: """ Especially for the classes of users identified as: People who are somewhat computer savvy, but may be new to Fedora and/or Linux and FOSS in general or People who don't know where to find anything other than the default offering (i.e., is there something else available?) These folks likely want to know more about the project scope, and (over)simplification is missing the opportunity to inform and educate them. """ If this is true, then the identification of who this page is targetted at wouldn't be "new and uninformed" users. It would be "new and *curious*" users. Let's face it. New and uninformed users are going to run whatever comes preinstalled on their computer be it Windows, MacOS, or the *nix distro that their child threw onto the computer when buying it for them. New and curious users have already made a conscious choice to check out what else is available. If this is our target audience, then we need to make it so it's easy for them to continue to explore their choices. There are two ways that people check out what we have to offer. One way is to download the 700MB of a livecd (or more if they download a liveusb image or the DVD install disc) and try it out. For the people that like this kind of hands-on approach and are unconcerned with how long it will take for the image to download/how much of their bandwidth cap for the month they'll be using we need to have a Big Button for them to download a default spin. Let them get their hands on it as quickly as possible. The other way to check things out is by reading our descriptions, looking at screenshots, reading reviews, and doing research before they download anything. Perhaps they do this because they don't like jumping into commitment, perhaps bandwidth isn't free where they live, perhaps they just like to read. All of our recent get-fedora pages and mockups have missed out on making things easy for these people -- possibly because we're targeting someone that isn't even in our target audience -- the people that just want to be handed something that they can use and don't want to make any choice at all. Deciding to use Linux (over Windows) and Fedora (over Ubuntu) already shows that our users are willing to make intelligent choices -- it's just a matter of catering to *how* they make those decisions. > Perhaps that isn't obvious enough in Mo's mockup > (http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/page2.png), if so, I'm sure she > would appreciate the feedback. > I think this could be a good starting point. Right now, above the fold, we have a huge "Download Now!" button and some fine print that says that its "690MB, ISO format, 1 CD-ROM disc image for Intel-compatible PCs(32bit)". And below that, in fine print, but highlighted in blue, "More download options...". Below the fold, there's a pull box that has several headings in it. The top headings in each column are "Huh? What does 'Live Media' mean?" and "Need to upgrade Fedora?". Below these two headings, there's an "Other Options" heading. Reading this entry you see that "Other Options" include "other architectures" "other desktops", "other spins", and "physical media". I can then click on "View Full list of options for getting Fedora..." if I choose. If I approach this as someone who wants to learn more about Fedora by reading more vs learning more by using it, here's what's lacking in this page: * Above the fold is much too terse. "More download options..." means what exactly? That I can choose to get Fedora from a mirror or bittorrent? That I can get it as an installable image instead of a live image? If the next page is where we want spins to strut their stuff and give me a more in-depth look at what I'll see when I download a particular Fedora spin, I need to know (1) That there are different flavours of Fedora and (2) That clicking on this link will take me to information about those spins. * Below the fold, the fact that there are other flavours of Fedora is the last thing listed and is just a list of options. It doesn't tell people that Fedora comes in different flavours. It doesn't tell people that there's more information about the various flavours available. it doesn't make any attempt to entice people to the next page. There needs to be more of a draw for the second class of learners to want to click on that link. They have to know that when they click it they will not be taken to a page like this: http://torrents.fedoraproject.org/ but a page like this: http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/page1.png that has information on every spin, not just the default spin. What do I suggest? Two things: Instead of "More download options" and "more options" make the links something like "Other Fedora Spins" or "More Fedora Flavours". Then in the pull box, make the first headline, "What's a Spin?" or "What's a Flavour?" and briefly touch on these points: * Fedora is created by a diverse community * You can try out Fedora pre-optimized for differing tasks and look-and-feels. This gives the second class of learner enough information and piques there curiousity enough for them to click on the link. We want this class of learner to understand that Fedora Desktop OR Fedora KDE OR Fedora Electronics Lab are all valid choices, not just Fedora OR Ubuntu OR OpenSolaris. -Toshio -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From a.badger at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 16:27:27 2009 From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 09:27:27 -0700 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> <4A8EB12A.9030604@math.unl.edu> Message-ID: <4A8ECAEF.9060107@gmail.com> On 08/21/2009 07:52 AM, Mike McGrath wrote: > Now the 'vision' stuff. We're kind of hoping the spins page (which will > include KDE, the gnome spin and others) will become a strong way for the > individual sigs to give a better indication on what the spin is, why one > should download it, include pictures, videos, whatever to better market > it. > I try not to be an active desktop-proponent but I do like to support fairness. To make the spin page viable getting to it has to be a lot easier. When confronted with this: +=================================+ | | | DOWNLOAD FEDORA NOW! | | | +=================================+ (more download options) There's not any incentive to visit the spins page. If we expect the spins page to be a showcase of talent, then we have to drive people to visit the spins page to see that talent. Otherwise the talent will spend its time doing more important things. > If it's a complete failure (and it very well might be), lets look at why, > what could be done to make it better. If there's nothing else to make it > better, bring it back to the board and state why and we'll re-think it. > Since I know you love doing this, what's the metric for failure? What are we going to measure to determine if the spins page doesn't work? Fewer hits on the spins page than on the get-fedora page (since in F11, the KDE spin download banner was seen everytime the get-fedora page was hit)? A smaller percentage of downloads for the KDE spin vs total ISO downloads than in F11? Fewer new contributors to the KDE SIG after F12 than were gained after F11? Equally, how do we measure success? If a higher percentage of people download a non-default spin? If there's really the expectation that we can evaluate how the spins page affects the adoption of non-default Fedora spins and that we'll make changes (even back to the old page if it's better than the current page) if the experiment is a failure, then there has to be an agreed upon way to measure that success or failure -- otherwise you're just deferring the arguments until later. And making it harder for the people who don't like this change to be heard (since inertia will then be on the side of the new design). -Toshio -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From rdieter at math.unl.edu Fri Aug 21 16:44:56 2009 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 11:44:56 -0500 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <1250868576.3159.110.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> <4A8EB12A.9030604@math.unl.edu> <1250868576.3159.110.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4A8ECF08.4020004@math.unl.edu> M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > There is a clear trade-off here - either you "do wrong" by the > community, or you "do wrong" by users who want to try your distro but > run away screaming because you've confused and scared them. Thank you (and others!) for the thoughtful replies, there's a lot there think and munch on. I guess it's just many (including myself) failed to see any evidence or justification for the claims of "confused/scared new users" and the current greatly simplified design choice. And... because the board says so, continues to not be all that satisfying. I'd love to be wrong (I'm wrong a lot), and am looking forward to the next collaborative irc meeting to discuss it more. -- Rex From mmcgrath at redhat.com Fri Aug 21 17:03:51 2009 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 12:03:51 -0500 (CDT) Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <4A8ECAEF.9060107@gmail.com> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> <4A8EB12A.9030604@math.unl.edu> <4A8ECAEF.9060107@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Aug 2009, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > On 08/21/2009 07:52 AM, Mike McGrath wrote: > > > Now the 'vision' stuff. We're kind of hoping the spins page (which will > > include KDE, the gnome spin and others) will become a strong way for the > > individual sigs to give a better indication on what the spin is, why one > > should download it, include pictures, videos, whatever to better market > > it. > > > I try not to be an active desktop-proponent but I do like to support > fairness. To make the spin page viable getting to it has to be a lot > easier. When confronted with this: > > > +=================================+ > | | > | DOWNLOAD FEDORA NOW! | > | | > +=================================+ > > (more download options) > > > There's not any incentive to visit the spins page. If we expect the > spins page to be a showcase of talent, then we have to drive people to > visit the spins page to see that talent. Otherwise the talent will > spend its time doing more important things. > I'll defer that to the mo'ster. But I think the idea is that advanced users will somehow be compelled to click on the advanced link (hopefully Mo's magic can make this happen) > > If it's a complete failure (and it very well might be), lets look at why, > > what could be done to make it better. If there's nothing else to make it > > better, bring it back to the board and state why and we'll re-think it. > > > Since I know you love doing this, what's the metric for failure? What > are we going to measure to determine if the spins page doesn't work? > Fewer hits on the spins page than on the get-fedora page (since in F11, > the KDE spin download banner was seen everytime the get-fedora page was > hit)? A smaller percentage of downloads for the KDE spin vs total ISO > downloads than in F11? Fewer new contributors to the KDE SIG after F12 > than were gained after F11? > > Equally, how do we measure success? If a higher percentage of people > download a non-default spin? > You've peaked my metric curiosities. I'll come up with a couple of metrics to measure and we'll discuss how accurate they'd be at measuring success. Though I'd say right now if the ratio of Gnome : KDE downloads is similar I'd say at the very least we've not failed. I'm not going to mince words here, I'm pretty sure the metric we're worried about is the gnome vs kde downloads. The funny thing for me is, as I mentioned in a previous post, I almost never use spins. Especially since the spins are now LiveCD which people cannot use to upgrade and which people cannot do package selections on. > If there's really the expectation that we can evaluate how the spins > page affects the adoption of non-default Fedora spins and that we'll > make changes (even back to the old page if it's better than the current > page) if the experiment is a failure, then there has to be an agreed > upon way to measure that success or failure -- otherwise you're just > deferring the arguments until later. And making it harder for the > people who don't like this change to be heard (since inertia will then > be on the side of the new design). > I think we have to, it'd be foolish of us to say "here's how things are going to be", then have us measure it, show that it was bad for all parties involved and then say "nope, we're not going to change it" without at least discussing it. -Mike From mairin at linuxgrrl.com Fri Aug 21 17:03:20 2009 From: mairin at linuxgrrl.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn?= Duffy) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 13:03:20 -0400 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <4A8ECF08.4020004@math.unl.edu> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> <4A8EB12A.9030604@math.unl.edu> <1250868576.3159.110.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A8ECF08.4020004@math.unl.edu> Message-ID: <1250874200.7596.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2009-08-21 at 11:44 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote: > I guess it's just many (including myself) failed to see any evidence or > justification for the claims of "confused/scared new users" and the > current greatly simplified design choice. And... because the board > says so, continues to not be all that satisfying. You say "failed" - does that mean it is no longer the case? Do you think the current page is acceptable and is something we should stick with? I can speak quite directly to more choices = confused/scared users from my experience as a UI designer generally. I've ordered parts for a portable usability lab (thanks to Spot), and they've started coming in. The main priority for the lab to start is to test Fedora Community, but I think it would also smart to run the designs for www.fpo / get.fpo through several tests. The upcoming Toronto FUDcon is going to be a great opportunity to run some tests on it as well I think. ~m From jkeating at redhat.com Fri Aug 21 17:13:41 2009 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 10:13:41 -0700 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> Message-ID: <1250874821.3107.86.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2009-08-21 at 09:04 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote: > Let's get back to the question: What is Fedora? > > I thought a general consensus was something akin to: a solid flexible > base distro technology that can be used for many different purposes > > Then, look at the new website mockups. > > (perceived) Answer: Fedora is the fedora-desktop spin I really think trying to answer the "What is the Fedora Project" question on the download page is the wrong thing to be doing. The download page is about products, not projects. The Fedora Project may be a solid flexible base distro technology that can be used for many different purposes, but the primary /product/ of the project is the Desktop spin, and that's what we'll offer on our product page, aka the download page. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mairin at linuxgrrl.com Fri Aug 21 17:22:48 2009 From: mairin at linuxgrrl.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn?= Duffy) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 13:22:48 -0400 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> <4A8EB12A.9030604@math.unl.edu> <4A8ECAEF.9060107@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1250875368.7596.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2009-08-21 at 12:03 -0500, Mike McGrath wrote: > On Fri, 21 Aug 2009, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > > > On 08/21/2009 07:52 AM, Mike McGrath wrote: > > > > > Now the 'vision' stuff. We're kind of hoping the spins page (which will > > > include KDE, the gnome spin and others) will become a strong way for the > > > individual sigs to give a better indication on what the spin is, why one > > > should download it, include pictures, videos, whatever to better market > > > it. > > > > > I try not to be an active desktop-proponent but I do like to support > > fairness. To make the spin page viable getting to it has to be a lot > > easier. When confronted with this: > > > > > > +=================================+ > > | | > > | DOWNLOAD FEDORA NOW! | > > | | > > +=================================+ > > > > (more download options) > > > > > > There's not any incentive to visit the spins page. If we expect the > > spins page to be a showcase of talent, then we have to drive people to > > visit the spins page to see that talent. Otherwise the talent will > > spend its time doing more important things. > > > > I'll defer that to the mo'ster. But I think the idea is that advanced > users will somehow be compelled to click on the advanced link (hopefully > Mo's magic can make this happen) That snippet above is from the mockup for the front page of www.fedoraproject.org, a page which today has no download button. The main download page has an additional much larger section "Other download options" to the right of the panda: http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/page2.png These pages are also not the only exposure I intend the spins pages to get. For example, for the www.fpo design we have conceptualized a lot more rotating, static content driven little widgets that could be used for marketing different aspects of fedora: http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/page1.png We could absolutely have a spins-centric content block that serves as a promo for the spins site and maybe even cycles through highlighting different popular spins. We could also have a small graphical banner on the main download page to drive people towards it. Something like, "More flavors of Fedora" Don't forget we are also in the process of trying to get Fedora Insight up and running, which I think is another great opportunity to promote KDE and other spins and drive more traffic to the spins site. > > Equally, how do we measure success? If a higher percentage of people > > download a non-default spin? The goal here isn't to drive downloads of non-default spins. The goal here is to get more people downloading FEDORA, period. I would measure success, then, as being a greater number of total downloads, not just for spins because again the goal is to not drive spins downloads up. I know our number of downloads increases every release. Does anyone have the statistics-fu to figure out, based on current trends, how much we should *expect* it to increase to, and then we could consider this project a success if we drive downloads to be higher than we were expecting them to grow to? > > > > You've peaked my metric curiosities. I'll come up with a couple of > metrics to measure and we'll discuss how accurate they'd be at measuring > success. Though I'd say right now if the ratio of Gnome : KDE downloads > is similar I'd say at the very least we've not failed. Again, GNOME vs. KDE is a non-issue. We want to drive TOTAL Fedora downloads up, irregardless of what desktop, arch, dvd vs livemedia, etc etc etc is involved. However, we do NOT want to do to this at the expense of other spins. So we could also track KDE downloads respective to what we were expecting to make sure we are not driving them down. If they are at least what we have expected then we have not screwed up. (My guess/hope is that people who knew to click on the KDE banner on the site as it is now will be just as capable as clicking the link in the 'Other Downloads' section that very specifically calls out KDE. But we won't know for sure until we try it. :) ) So I think our metrics for success should be: 1) Total downloads of Fedora increase to well above the number we were expecting based on downloads for the previous releases over time. 2) Total downloads of the KDE spin are at least the number we are expecting based on past download trends over time. AND as has been pointed out, if we fail on either or both of those metrics, the design changes. I refuse to fight for a design that doesn't achieve the goals it was set out to achieve. Does this make sense? ~m From poelstra at redhat.com Fri Aug 21 17:57:09 2009 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 10:57:09 -0700 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> Message-ID: <4A8EDFF5.3050808@redhat.com> Rex Dieter said the following on 08/21/2009 07:04 AM Pacific Time: > OK, I get the idea behind all of this, really I do. Much of it is > great, but let me share what's been nagging at the back of my mind for > some time. It's just been hard to put into words, so I'll try my best > here. > > Let's get back to the question: What is Fedora? The question of "What is Fedora" has still not adequately been answered for me. Refocusing the download page is *part* of getting to answering the question, but I still do not believe we are as clear as we could be about what we *are* (present) and what we *want* to be (future). I realize others believe that defining it too much will stifle the project. > I thought a general consensus was something akin to: a solid flexible > base distro technology that can be used for many different purposes I think this is a definition we have historically held to, but to me it is too vague and uninspiring. It lacks focus. It tries to be too many things to too many people. It is a recipe for mediocrity, not excellence. I am not saying it cannot be one part of what we are, but if that is the sole definition of what we are and what we want to be, then we are destined to be "good," but never "great." I want Fedora to be great. I cannot think of a super successful project or company that has 'been all things to all people.' They are usually very good because they focus on a few things and work on doing those things very well. Fedora still needs to be clearer about what things we want to do very well. And when we pick those things they need to be things we can measure and evaluate--another behavior of very successful companies. I realize Fedora is not a "company", but I think the principle still applies. > Then, look at the new website mockups. > > (perceived) Answer: Fedora is the fedora-desktop spin The website mockups are meant to address the requirements specified by the board and discussion on this list. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Website_redesign_2009 If the requirements are wrong, then that is separate discussion that we should have. Does there need to be more discussion around the requirements? John From poelstra at redhat.com Fri Aug 21 18:06:49 2009 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 11:06:49 -0700 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <1250874821.3107.86.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <1250874821.3107.86.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4A8EE239.4020907@redhat.com> Jesse Keating said the following on 08/21/2009 10:13 AM Pacific Time: > I really think trying to answer the "What is the Fedora Project" > question on the download page is the wrong thing to be doing. The > download page is about products, not projects. The Fedora Project may > be a solid flexible base distro technology that can be used for many > different purposes, but the primary /product/ of the project is the > Desktop spin, and that's what we'll offer on our product page, aka the > download page. This is a great way of explaining the approach under way with the download page. John From rdieter at math.unl.edu Fri Aug 21 18:16:22 2009 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 13:16:22 -0500 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <1250874200.7596.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> <4A8EB12A.9030604@math.unl.edu> <1250868576.3159.110.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A8ECF08.4020004@math.unl.edu> <1250874200.7596.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4A8EE476.8030205@math.unl.edu> M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > On Fri, 2009-08-21 at 11:44 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote: >> I guess it's just many (including myself) failed to see any evidence or >> justification for the claims of "confused/scared new users" and the >> current greatly simplified design choice. And... because the board >> says so, continues to not be all that satisfying. > > You say "failed" - does that mean it is no longer the case? Sorry, "fail". > Do you think the current page is acceptable and is something we should > stick with? I suck, not that I have concrete suggestions...but, the main thing to improve (somehow): make clearer ways to discover other (non-default) spins > I can speak quite directly to more choices = confused/scared users from > my experience as a UI designer generally. Of course. One must also be careful to not take the "less choice" mantra too far (yes, that is possible too). There's value judgement inherent to even offer a choice. Sometimes it is worth it, sometimes not. crazy-talk-thinking-out-loud rhetorical: What would it take to justify offering a spin choice, that, say, included kde? A box of strawberries, X% userbase, a project/sig with metric Y of success, a pony, all of the above? maybe nothing. a board mandating it? > I've ordered parts for a portable usability lab (thanks to Spot), and > they've started coming in. The main priority for the lab to start is to > test Fedora Community, but I think it would also smart to run the > designs for www.fpo / get.fpo through several tests. The upcoming > Toronto FUDcon is going to be a great opportunity to run some tests on > it as well I think. Woo. Need to find myself a way up there. -- Rex From mairin at linuxgrrl.com Fri Aug 21 18:26:41 2009 From: mairin at linuxgrrl.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn?= Duffy) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 14:26:41 -0400 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <4A8EE476.8030205@math.unl.edu> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> <4A8EB12A.9030604@math.unl.edu> <1250868576.3159.110.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A8ECF08.4020004@math.unl.edu> <1250874200.7596.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A8EE476.8030205@math.unl.edu> Message-ID: <1250879201.8252.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2009-08-21 at 13:16 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote: > Of course. One must also be careful to not take the "less choice" > mantra too far (yes, that is possible too). There's value judgement > inherent to even offer a choice. Sometimes it is worth it, sometimes not. > crazy-talk-thinking-out-loud rhetorical: What would it take to justify > offering a spin choice, that, say, included kde? A box of strawberries, > X% userbase, a project/sig with metric Y of success, a pony, all of the > above? maybe nothing. a board mandating it? I don't know. I hear the folks pushing for there to be a DVD link on the front page are offering trained dolphins with lasers. And the folks pushing for there to be an x86_64 link on the front page are offering a a year's supply of coconuts. I guess you'll just have to compete on the open market. There *IS* a spin choice for KDE on the spins page. It's rather prominent. It will be more so when the page is reorganized to present the spins in order of popularity by default. Are you asking me what will it take to put a KDE download link on the main download page for Fedora? Maybe you're focusing on the wrong thing. Your goal is to put you should focus more on how to make what's best for the users happen rather than what's best for you. ~m From stickster at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 18:36:56 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 14:36:56 -0400 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <1250875368.7596.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> <4A8EB12A.9030604@math.unl.edu> <4A8ECAEF.9060107@gmail.com> <1250875368.7596.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20090821183656.GC4581@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 01:22:48PM -0400, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > On Fri, 2009-08-21 at 12:03 -0500, Mike McGrath wrote: > > On Fri, 21 Aug 2009, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > > > > > On 08/21/2009 07:52 AM, Mike McGrath wrote: > > > > > > > Now the 'vision' stuff. We're kind of hoping the spins page (which will > > > > include KDE, the gnome spin and others) will become a strong way for the > > > > individual sigs to give a better indication on what the spin is, why one > > > > should download it, include pictures, videos, whatever to better market > > > > it. > > > > > > > I try not to be an active desktop-proponent but I do like to support > > > fairness. To make the spin page viable getting to it has to be a lot > > > easier. When confronted with this: > > > > > > > > > +=================================+ > > > | | > > > | DOWNLOAD FEDORA NOW! | > > > | | > > > +=================================+ > > > > > > (more download options) > > > > > > > > > There's not any incentive to visit the spins page. If we expect the > > > spins page to be a showcase of talent, then we have to drive people to > > > visit the spins page to see that talent. Otherwise the talent will > > > spend its time doing more important things. > > > > > > > I'll defer that to the mo'ster. But I think the idea is that advanced > > users will somehow be compelled to click on the advanced link (hopefully > > Mo's magic can make this happen) > > That snippet above is from the mockup for the front page of > www.fedoraproject.org, a page which today has no download button. > > The main download page has an additional much larger section "Other > download options" to the right of the panda: > > http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/page2.png This is the page that should be compared apples-to-apples with the current get-fedora page. The front page is incidental to this discussion because we're trying to actually have *some page actually worth looking at* for people new to Fedora. The get-fedora page continues to be the main landing site for downloads listed in our release announcements and elsewhere. > These pages are also not the only exposure I intend the spins pages to > get. For example, for the www.fpo design we have conceptualized a lot > more rotating, static content driven little widgets that could be used > for marketing different aspects of fedora: > > http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/page1.png > > We could absolutely have a spins-centric content block that serves as a > promo for the spins site and maybe even cycles through highlighting > different popular spins. We could also have a small graphical banner on > the main download page to drive people towards it. Something like, "More > flavors of Fedora" > > Don't forget we are also in the process of trying to get Fedora Insight > up and running, which I think is another great opportunity to promote > KDE and other spins and drive more traffic to the spins site. Overall, the exposure for spins is going to increase by leaps and bounds over where it stands right now. We obviously need to do better than a torrent listing and I defy anyone to defend that current page against the brilliant new mockups for both spins.fp.o and the separate pages fully populated with information from the communities responsible for them: http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/spins-directory.6.png http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/spins-electronicslab.svg > > > Equally, how do we measure success? If a higher percentage of people > > > download a non-default spin? > > The goal here isn't to drive downloads of non-default spins. The goal > here is to get more people downloading FEDORA, period. I would measure > success, then, as being a greater number of total downloads, not just > for spins because again the goal is to not drive spins downloads up. > > I know our number of downloads increases every release. Does anyone have > the statistics-fu to figure out, based on current trends, how much we > should *expect* it to increase to, and then we could consider this > project a success if we drive downloads to be higher than we were > expecting them to grow to? > > > > > > > You've peaked my metric curiosities. I'll come up with a couple of > > metrics to measure and we'll discuss how accurate they'd be at measuring > > success. Though I'd say right now if the ratio of Gnome : KDE downloads > > is similar I'd say at the very least we've not failed. > > Again, GNOME vs. KDE is a non-issue. We want to drive TOTAL Fedora > downloads up, irregardless of what desktop, arch, dvd vs livemedia, etc > etc etc is involved. > > However, we do NOT want to do to this at the expense of other spins. So > we could also track KDE downloads respective to what we were expecting > to make sure we are not driving them down. If they are at least what we > have expected then we have not screwed up. (My guess/hope is that people > who knew to click on the KDE banner on the site as it is now will be > just as capable as clicking the link in the 'Other Downloads' section > that very specifically calls out KDE. But we won't know for sure until > we try it. :) ) > > So I think our metrics for success should be: > > 1) Total downloads of Fedora increase to well above the number we were > expecting based on downloads for the previous releases over time. > > 2) Total downloads of the KDE spin are at least the number we are > expecting based on past download trends over time. > > AND as has been pointed out, if we fail on either or both of those > metrics, the design changes. I refuse to fight for a design that doesn't > achieve the goals it was set out to achieve. > > Does this make sense? It generally does to me. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From a.badger at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 18:24:12 2009 From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 11:24:12 -0700 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <1250868576.3159.110.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> <4A8EB12A.9030604@math.unl.edu> <1250868576.3159.110.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4A8EE64C.6090400@gmail.com> On 08/21/2009 08:29 AM, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > On Fri, 2009-08-21 at 09:37 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote: >> Tom "spot" Callaway wrote: >>> On 08/21/2009 10:04 AM, Rex Dieter wrote: >>>> Then, look at the new website mockups. >>>> >>>> (perceived) Answer: Fedora is the fedora-desktop spin >>> >>> Well, I think the point here is that for the new, uninformed user, we >>> need to present them with a single default choice. >>> >>> Forcing them to choose between: >>> GNOME, KDE, Games, LXCE, EDU, Electronics, Security >> >> One can still offer options, but have a choice pre-selected by default, >> akin to how some other distros are doing. > > I think one of the main misunderstandings/miscommunications about this > redesign is why we are doing it. The goals of this redesign, from my > understanding, is: > > 1) To grow adoption of Fedora by new prospective users > > 2) To grow community involvement in Fedora by growing the base of users > from which we can recruit community members. > > Let me remind you of one more goal I think we *all* share (and as sad as > it may be, is certainly one of my main goals in life): > > 3) To grow the general acceptance and usage of free & open source > software. > Okay, so the first question is: Fedora Board, are these the goals you've handed off to the design team? I don't see them listed on: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Website_redesign_2009 Goals seem pretty important. More important than the target audience even. Those should be written down. The second question is how this interacts with the target audience. For instance, do we want to "grow prospective users" even if they don't fall into the target audience of the page? Are those people of greater, lesser, or the same value to us as the target audience? If we decide that these are our goals, that allows us to start raising questions based upon the goals -- for instance, if "growing the community that we can recruit" from is a goal, maybe we want to be promoting less popular spins on get-fedora so that we can increase the developers of those spins. > With these goals in mind, it appears that rather than only catering to > the current community base we have (which is inarguably extremely > important), we need to also consider the users and community members we > do not have in the design as we are basically trying to sell our > software and our community to them (whom you do not seem to be > considering.) So considering the 'newbie' case is more important with > the goals stated above than it ever has been for our website before. > The use of "newbies" is difficult in this paragraph. The design goals expressed by the Board are definitely not for "newbies" in the sense of esr's Aunt Tilly. It's for "People who are somewhat computer savvy, but may be new to Fedora and/or Linux and FOSS in general". So these are people who have some technical background but may not have experience with FOSS. Also, I still don't see much of a sales pitch for the community in these mockups. We need things like: * credits the Fedora community/KDE SIG/Fedora Design Team created this * More first person pronouns "We made this to you" * Support: Troubleshooting? Fedora community IRC/mailing list/forum link. * Fedora Classroom! Can we pull off a "Fedora's downloading, learn to use it by joining a Fedora classroom session on IRC." [schedule of classes] [Read transcripts for past classes] on page3.png? > Who do you know who dabbles in Linux or has always wanted to try it out? > Think of that person. Imagine they are on the phone with you, and are > asking you how they can get a copy of Fedora: > Heh, bad analogy. If I'm on the phone with someone it's actually pretty simple to figure out what would be a good fit and have them download the right thing. You expect to hold a conversation with someone on the phone so you have the luxury of asking a lot of questions and talking about a lot of details. The web page has to address a much more difficult problem -- leading someone to a decent decision without losing their attention in the meantime. > I understand to you, adding KDE is 'just one more choice', but I hope > the above illustrates it all is 'just one more' that adds up to just one > big confusing mess than sends new users running screaming from our > website to other distros (or giving up on Linux altogether!) I buy into the too much choice argument but the current mockup doesn't make clear that the user has any choice at all. If that's intentional, there's no room for compromise here. If that's not intentional, then it needs to be worked on as a priority as without that, none of the people who are not on the get-fedora page will have anyreason to make the spins page better. > Since Linux does not have the market share I think we'd all like to see > in an ideal world, btw, I don't think following what other distros are > doing is (1) innovative (2) going to get us to where we want to be. > Especially if those distros don't share our goals as a distro, and > especially if the success of those distros' designs are unknown or not > shared. If the goal is to increase free & open source software adoption > and if the goal is to do that by spreading Fedora far & wide, wouldn't > we be better off trying to be innovative of our own accord and maybe > looking to the big players (OS X, Windows) to see what they do? > There's a few tangents in here: 1) Linux's market share is growing so getting antsy about changing how we do things isn't necessarily what we want to do. 2) OS X comes preinstalled on proprietary hardware. Is that what we want to do? Windows comes preinstalled on computers or in boxes at the store. Is that the model we want to adopt? In both of these cases, the "download now!" page is pretty difficult to find :-) 3) I think the goal of increasing market share is already taken by other distros. Ubuntu, SusE, RHEL, for instance. The commercial distros. If we're going to be innovative, I'd rather we did it by concentrating on the things we do well or want to do well (Infinity Freedom Voice, Freedom Friends Features First, Upstream upstream upstream, Leading but not bleeding, We know how to build a community, put your hand-wavey slogan here). Market share for the sake of market share is not something I want Fedora to strive for. >> But let's not get muddled in details. >> >> Let me be brutally honest: withholding choice and options here and/or >> diminishing kde's visibility *will* disenfranchise a lot of people. >> We'll lose out PR-wise big time, especially in light of opensuse's >> recent work that is largely perceived as doing right by the community. > > There is a clear trade-off here - either you "do wrong" by the > community, or you "do wrong" by users who want to try your distro but > run away screaming because you've confused and scared them. It seems > easier to reject the latter folks because they're not here yet, but > we'll fail if we don't continue to grow. > If you disenfranchise the current community, you'll shrink. This recent blog post is relevant. If you're as compulsively click happy as I am, you've already read it:: http://www.codesimplicity.com/archives/137 the secret to growth is to retain your current users because if you can do that, new ones will start coming by because they want to try something new. > If the current in-progress designs would disenfranchise current > community members, let's work on a way to address that *without* scaring > away new prospects a well. I think this is the heart of the matter. I definitely agree with it. However, I think we're looking at the ramifications of this differently. There's two possibilities for why there's disagreement: * Which is valued more, getting new members or keeping old members? I think that decreasing the morale of contributors is a more pressing concern than gaining more users. Gaining more users is important so that we can gain more contributors but its the old adage about it not making sense to lose what you have in order to get something of uncertain worth. * The level of problem that exists either with disenfranchising current members with the new design or driving away potential new contributors with the old design. My perception is that we're gaining new users despite the problems with the old design and that the new design is seen as a huge demoralizing issue for the current contributors. Your perception is probably that we're losing a lot of potential new users due to poor design and the current contributors will "get over it" once the new design is deployed. It's hard to guage this effect because one is psychological and the other is a lack of something rather than the addition of something. We could have a poll of contributors to determine how many of them dislike where the design is heading but that could be seen by some as a vote (rather than a poll to see how people are feeling) which could make people feel worse in the end. >> >> Is that a price the board is willing to pay? > > I think the board has made a statement that they would like to see us > recruiting a wider user base rather than only catering to the people we > already have in our community. I think a fair way to keep both current > community members happy and to not scare away our potential users (and > hopefully potential new community members) is: > > 1) By default, make the very first 'download' landing page dead simple > for the newbies. Make it one-click and hard to screw up and > easy-to-understand. > > 2) Have a very obvious 'If you know what you're doing, go over here' > link on the main download landing page that takes you to a screen > designed for the ideal 'already knows what their doing' user, giving > them a full set of choices. > > For #1, this is (and it's absolutely a work-in-progress) the proposal on > the table: > > http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/page2.png > > It would be accompanied by a page listing out the desktop spin in other > architectures and with bittorrent links. this page (not mocked up as of > yet, I'll try to work on it today) would also have information about > obtaining physical media (free media program, directory of vendors) > > For #2, this is the spins page design (again, absolutely a > work-in-progress) proposal: > > http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/spins-directory.6.png > Actually, your number 2 says: "Have a very obvious 'If you know what you're doing, go over here' link on the main download landing page". I think that's the main point of failure currently. The current page2.png mockup does not drive people who want to learn about or try different options to the spins page. Thought experiment: Try starting with a design for page2.png that has only two links but is absolutely horrible: +------------------------- | _What's a Spin?_ | Fedora has many differen | you can find the Fedora | perfect for you! +------------------------- +=======================+ | | | All Fedora Spins! | | | +=======================+ (Download Fedora) Then make a few incrementals in between before arriving at what we have now: +==================+ | Download Fedora! | +==================+ (Other download options) Think about which ones you love and which ones you hate. Write down what your reasons are. Then show the people that hate the current mockups and get their rankings and rationale. I think a balance can be struck between mass of download options and not enough information to proceed but it's going to require compromise on both sides. You can present more information and in not precisely the best manner and not drive new users to go elsewhere. And you can not present all the options and still get interested people to click further. But it's hard to see where that compromise point might be when there's not a clear understanding that the page is open for input and what the impact is when viewing the changes. Someone who says "Only putting all the spins on one page is fair" might be willing to say "This two link page draws me to click through to the more information page satisfactorily" once they see a mockup that attempts to make that happen. [snip spins page stuff] The spins mockup page is a bit beside the point right now. Nobody is confident that anyone is going to view the spins page so how it looks is not something anyone's going to get excited about. Think of it like this: """ +==================+ | | | Install Windows | | For free! | | | +==================+ (other download options) Maybe we can put the Linux distributions on the other downloads page with two views -- one by popularity (the default) and the second in alphabetical order. You can even tell people to go to fedora.microsoft.com to get it. I think you can really promote Fedora by doing a good job of making the description on that second page rock! """ :-) -Toshio -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From stickster at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 18:44:30 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 14:44:30 -0400 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <1250879201.8252.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> <4A8EB12A.9030604@math.unl.edu> <1250868576.3159.110.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A8ECF08.4020004@math.unl.edu> <1250874200.7596.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A8EE476.8030205@math.unl.edu> <1250879201.8252.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20090821184430.GD4581@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 02:26:41PM -0400, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > On Fri, 2009-08-21 at 13:16 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote: > > Of course. One must also be careful to not take the "less choice" > > mantra too far (yes, that is possible too). There's value judgement > > inherent to even offer a choice. Sometimes it is worth it, sometimes not. > > > crazy-talk-thinking-out-loud rhetorical: What would it take to justify > > offering a spin choice, that, say, included kde? A box of strawberries, > > X% userbase, a project/sig with metric Y of success, a pony, all of the > > above? maybe nothing. a board mandating it? > > I don't know. I hear the folks pushing for there to be a DVD link on the > front page are offering trained dolphins with lasers. And the folks > pushing for there to be an x86_64 link on the front page are offering a > a year's supply of coconuts. I guess you'll just have to compete on the > open market. > > There *IS* a spin choice for KDE on the spins page. It's rather > prominent. It will be more so when the page is reorganized to present > the spins in order of popularity by default. > > Are you asking me what will it take to put a KDE download link on the > main download page for Fedora? Maybe you're focusing on the wrong thing. > Your goal is to put you should focus more on how to make what's best for > the users happen rather than what's best for you. Mo, you asked about that diagram earlier -- I had forgotten all about the fact that I had a picture of it on my phone! Thanks for reminding me, I just uploaded it here: http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/images/spins-workflow-20090807.jpg Feel free to take a copy to wherever you need it, or diagram it more clearly for anyone's use. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From mmcgrath at redhat.com Fri Aug 21 18:53:02 2009 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 13:53:02 -0500 (CDT) Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <4A8EE64C.6090400@gmail.com> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> <4A8EB12A.9030604@math.unl.edu> <1250868576.3159.110.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A8EE64C.6090400@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Aug 2009, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > On 08/21/2009 08:29 AM, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > > On Fri, 2009-08-21 at 09:37 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote: > >> Tom "spot" Callaway wrote: > >>> On 08/21/2009 10:04 AM, Rex Dieter wrote: > >>>> Then, look at the new website mockups. > >>>> > >>>> (perceived) Answer: Fedora is the fedora-desktop spin > >>> > >>> Well, I think the point here is that for the new, uninformed user, we > >>> need to present them with a single default choice. > >>> > >>> Forcing them to choose between: > >>> GNOME, KDE, Games, LXCE, EDU, Electronics, Security > >> > >> One can still offer options, but have a choice pre-selected by default, > >> akin to how some other distros are doing. > > > > I think one of the main misunderstandings/miscommunications about this > > redesign is why we are doing it. The goals of this redesign, from my > > understanding, is: > > > > 1) To grow adoption of Fedora by new prospective users > > > > 2) To grow community involvement in Fedora by growing the base of users > > from which we can recruit community members. > > > > Let me remind you of one more goal I think we *all* share (and as sad as > > it may be, is certainly one of my main goals in life): > > > > 3) To grow the general acceptance and usage of free & open source > > software. > > > > Okay, so the first question is: Fedora Board, are these the goals > you've handed off to the design team? I don't see them listed on: > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Website_redesign_2009 > > Goals seem pretty important. More important than the target audience > even. Those should be written down. > I think the specific goal(s) we're looking for with this discusion is entirely based around simplifying the get-fedora page. But to do that we realized we needed to beef up the spins page as to not sweep other spins under the rug. > The second question is how this interacts with the target audience. For > instance, do we want to "grow prospective users" even if they don't fall > into the target audience of the page? Are those people of greater, > lesser, or the same value to us as the target audience? > > If we decide that these are our goals, that allows us to start raising > questions based upon the goals -- for instance, if "growing the > community that we can recruit" from is a goal, maybe we want to be > promoting less popular spins on get-fedora so that we can increase the > developers of those spins. > I think these other goals are always worth discussion but out of scope for simplifying the get-fedora page (at least for now). Time is tight and some fruit is hanging lower then the others. -Mike From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Aug 21 18:58:30 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 00:28:30 +0530 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <4A8EB12A.9030604@math.unl.edu> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> <4A8EB12A.9030604@math.unl.edu> Message-ID: <4A8EEE56.3070708@fedoraproject.org> On 08/21/2009 08:07 PM, Rex Dieter wrote: > But let's not get muddled in details. > > Let me be brutally honest: withholding choice and options here and/or > diminishing kde's visibility *will* disenfranchise a lot of people. > We'll lose out PR-wise big time, especially in light of opensuse's > recent work that is largely perceived as doing right by the community. > > Is that a price the board is willing to pay? Can't speak for the board but what opensuse did was go from trying to satisfy everybody (FAIL) to picking a default (right model). That actually seems to validate what Fedora is doing. The default is different because the community is different. Think about it. Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Aug 21 19:04:47 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 00:34:47 +0530 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <4A8ECF08.4020004@math.unl.edu> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> <4A8EB12A.9030604@math.unl.edu> <1250868576.3159.110.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A8ECF08.4020004@math.unl.edu> Message-ID: <4A8EEFCF.5010608@fedoraproject.org> On 08/21/2009 10:14 PM, Rex Dieter wrote: > M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > >> There is a clear trade-off here - either you "do wrong" by the >> community, or you "do wrong" by users who want to try your distro but >> run away screaming because you've confused and scared them. > > Thank you (and others!) for the thoughtful replies, there's a lot there > think and munch on. > > I guess it's just many (including myself) failed to see any evidence or > justification for the claims of "confused/scared new users" and the > current greatly simplified design choice. And... because the board > says so, continues to not be all that satisfying. I spend quite a lot of time in the community forums answering newbie questions and users do get confused quite a bit on what to download. I know it doesn't really match the KDE perspective of things but more choices do confuse people. They do not necessarily understand x86_32 vs x86_64 or GNOME vs KDE or what an ISO image is or how to actually burn them etc. Now the approach to solving that problem might actually be different to the current design but the problem is real. If you want to see this for yourself, grab a few non technical end users and show them http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora (current) vs http://fedoraproject.org/en/get-fedora-all (previous default page) vs http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/page1.png (proposed design) Rahul From a.badger at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 19:08:27 2009 From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 12:08:27 -0700 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <1250875368.7596.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> <4A8EB12A.9030604@math.unl.edu> <4A8ECAEF.9060107@gmail.com> <1250875368.7596.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4A8EF0AB.9050304@gmail.com> On 08/21/2009 10:22 AM, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > On Fri, 2009-08-21 at 12:03 -0500, Mike McGrath wrote: >> On Fri, 21 Aug 2009, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: >> >>> On 08/21/2009 07:52 AM, Mike McGrath wrote: >>> >>>> Now the 'vision' stuff. We're kind of hoping the spins page (which will >>>> include KDE, the gnome spin and others) will become a strong way for the >>>> individual sigs to give a better indication on what the spin is, why one >>>> should download it, include pictures, videos, whatever to better market >>>> it. >>>> >>> I try not to be an active desktop-proponent but I do like to support >>> fairness. To make the spin page viable getting to it has to be a lot >>> easier. When confronted with this: >>> >>> >>> +=================================+ >>> | | >>> | DOWNLOAD FEDORA NOW! | >>> | | >>> +=================================+ >>> >>> (more download options) >>> >>> >>> There's not any incentive to visit the spins page. If we expect the >>> spins page to be a showcase of talent, then we have to drive people to >>> visit the spins page to see that talent. Otherwise the talent will >>> spend its time doing more important things. >>> >> >> I'll defer that to the mo'ster. But I think the idea is that advanced >> users will somehow be compelled to click on the advanced link (hopefully >> Mo's magic can make this happen) > > That snippet above is from the mockup for the front page of > www.fedoraproject.org, a page which today has no download button. > No it's not. It's from page2.png. when you view page2.png, above the fold, there's a Download Fedora button and a small link that only says "Other Download options". After that there's a pull box which says a bit more about them. But that's below the psychological fold. It's beyond the main part of the page. It's in a pull box (In fact, it's the last item in the pull box so it's even below the psychological fold of the pull box. This is not a good design for getting people to the information on the spins page. Side note: In the context of the larger website, it's not a good design either. By the time someone clicks on a download link, they're looking for downloads rather than info. There needs to be a more information about spins link on the front page that takes people to the spins page too. > These pages are also not the only exposure I intend the spins pages to > get. For example, for the www.fpo design we have conceptualized a lot > more rotating, static content driven little widgets that could be used > for marketing different aspects of fedora: > > http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/page1.png > > We could absolutely have a spins-centric content block that serves as a > promo for the spins site and maybe even cycles through highlighting > different popular spins. We could also have a small graphical banner on > the main download page to drive people towards it. Something like, "More > flavors of Fedora" > The problem with the rotating banner ads is that they serve a different purpose. They're an ad, not navigation. Navigation needs to be findable. A randomly rotating banner ad fails to do that. > Don't forget we are also in the process of trying to get Fedora Insight > up and running, which I think is another great opportunity to promote > KDE and other spins and drive more traffic to the spins site. > >>> Equally, how do we measure success? If a higher percentage of people >>> download a non-default spin? > > The goal here isn't to drive downloads of non-default spins. The goal > here is to get more people downloading FEDORA, period. I would measure > success, then, as being a greater number of total downloads, not just > for spins because again the goal is to not drive spins downloads up. > That is not the goal. If Fedora downloads double but Fedora KDE downloads drop to zero, I would argue strenuously that the new design is a failure. I don't expect anything that drastic to happen, though -- that's why there needs to be a better definition of success and failure. > I know our number of downloads increases every release. Does anyone have > the statistics-fu to figure out, based on current trends, how much we > should *expect* it to increase to, and then we could consider this > project a success if we drive downloads to be higher than we were > expecting them to grow to? Looking at the trends is interesting but it's also dangerous to decide to base success or failure on them without a lot of thought. I'd expect that since RHEL5 is getting older and older and people are getting antsier about what RHEl6 could look like, we're going to see an increase in Fedora12 above just the trends from F9 to F10 to F11. But if we fail to see that, does that mean the redesign is a failure? Similarly, if we don't account for that and we do see a huge increase, was it due to the age of RHEL5 or the newly designed page? So whatever metric we are using, we need to decide that beforehand. And if we can't decide on metrics that's going to tell us that we're going to have a very hard time judging success or failure after the release. >>> >> >> You've peaked my metric curiosities. I'll come up with a couple of >> metrics to measure and we'll discuss how accurate they'd be at measuring >> success. Though I'd say right now if the ratio of Gnome : KDE downloads >> is similar I'd say at the very least we've not failed. > > Again, GNOME vs. KDE is a non-issue. We want to drive TOTAL Fedora > downloads up, irregardless of what desktop, arch, dvd vs livemedia, etc > etc etc is involved. > > However, we do NOT want to do to this at the expense of other spins. So > we could also track KDE downloads respective to what we were expecting > to make sure we are not driving them down. If they are at least what we > have expected then we have not screwed up. (My guess/hope is that people > who knew to click on the KDE banner on the site as it is now will be > just as capable as clicking the link in the 'Other Downloads' section > that very specifically calls out KDE. But we won't know for sure until > we try it. :) ) > Cool -- taken together, I agree with these two paragraphs :-) > So I think our metrics for success should be: > > 1) Total downloads of Fedora increase to well above the number we were > expecting based on downloads for the previous releases over time. > > 2) Total downloads of the KDE spin are at least the number we are > expecting based on past download trends over time. > > AND as has been pointed out, if we fail on either or both of those > metrics, the design changes. I refuse to fight for a design that doesn't > achieve the goals it was set out to achieve. > > Does this make sense? Yep. The tricky part is deciding what the trends are supposed to be and how seriously we take failures. So we need a few actual metrics that implement these to dissect and argue over the percentages and trends. -Toshio -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From stickster at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 19:20:28 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 15:20:28 -0400 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <4A8EEFCF.5010608@fedoraproject.org> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> <4A8EB12A.9030604@math.unl.edu> <1250868576.3159.110.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A8ECF08.4020004@math.unl.edu> <4A8EEFCF.5010608@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <20090821192028.GE4581@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 12:34:47AM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > On 08/21/2009 10:14 PM, Rex Dieter wrote: > > M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > > > >> There is a clear trade-off here - either you "do wrong" by the > >> community, or you "do wrong" by users who want to try your distro but > >> run away screaming because you've confused and scared them. > > > > Thank you (and others!) for the thoughtful replies, there's a lot there > > think and munch on. > > > > I guess it's just many (including myself) failed to see any evidence or > > justification for the claims of "confused/scared new users" and the > > current greatly simplified design choice. And... because the board > > says so, continues to not be all that satisfying. > > I spend quite a lot of time in the community forums answering newbie > questions and users do get confused quite a bit on what to download. I > know it doesn't really match the KDE perspective of things but more > choices do confuse people. They do not necessarily understand x86_32 vs > x86_64 or GNOME vs KDE or what an ISO image is or how to actually burn > them etc. Now the approach to solving that problem might actually be > different to the current design but the problem is real. > > If you want to see this for yourself, grab a few non technical end users > and show them > > http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora (current) > > vs > > http://fedoraproject.org/en/get-fedora-all (previous default page) > > vs http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/page2.png That's the correct page to draw the analogy. The front page is not an apples to apples comparison because it's never had a clear way to download anything at all. (That notwithstanding the page1 mockup is a huge improvement in that regard.) -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From a.badger at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 19:18:53 2009 From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 12:18:53 -0700 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> <4A8EB12A.9030604@math.unl.edu> <1250868576.3159.110.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A8EE64C.6090400@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A8EF31D.3070707@gmail.com> On 08/21/2009 11:53 AM, Mike McGrath wrote: > On Fri, 21 Aug 2009, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > >> On 08/21/2009 08:29 AM, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: >>> On Fri, 2009-08-21 at 09:37 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote: >>>> Tom "spot" Callaway wrote: >>>>> On 08/21/2009 10:04 AM, Rex Dieter wrote: >>>>>> Then, look at the new website mockups. >>>>>> >>>>>> (perceived) Answer: Fedora is the fedora-desktop spin >>>>> >>>>> Well, I think the point here is that for the new, uninformed user, we >>>>> need to present them with a single default choice. >>>>> >>>>> Forcing them to choose between: >>>>> GNOME, KDE, Games, LXCE, EDU, Electronics, Security >>>> >>>> One can still offer options, but have a choice pre-selected by default, >>>> akin to how some other distros are doing. >>> >>> I think one of the main misunderstandings/miscommunications about this >>> redesign is why we are doing it. The goals of this redesign, from my >>> understanding, is: >>> >>> 1) To grow adoption of Fedora by new prospective users >>> >>> 2) To grow community involvement in Fedora by growing the base of users >>> from which we can recruit community members. >>> >>> Let me remind you of one more goal I think we *all* share (and as sad as >>> it may be, is certainly one of my main goals in life): >>> >>> 3) To grow the general acceptance and usage of free & open source >>> software. >>> >> >> Okay, so the first question is: Fedora Board, are these the goals >> you've handed off to the design team? I don't see them listed on: >> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Website_redesign_2009 >> >> Goals seem pretty important. More important than the target audience >> even. Those should be written down. >> > > I think the specific goal(s) we're looking for with this discusion is > entirely based around simplifying the get-fedora page. But to do that we > realized we needed to beef up the spins page as to not sweep other spins > under the rug. > Simplifying is not a goal. Making it easier for our target audience to get Fedora is a goal. Getting more of our target audience to download and try out Fedora is a goal. Getting more of our target audience to fall in love with Fedora is a goal. Simplifying the download page is one means towards those ends. The conflicting goals that I'm (possibly falsely) seeing are: * Retention of existing contributors * Growth of Fedora user base * Growth of Fedora contributors Simplifying the get-fedora page is aimed at growing the userbase in total. But the argument is being made that the new design will hurt the ability of some areas of the project to retain and grow the contributor base. I think that beefing up the spins page is aimed at rectifying that but it doesn't help if people who are looking to download fedora aren't being enticed to click to the spins page. -Toshio -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From rdieter at math.unl.edu Fri Aug 21 19:31:31 2009 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 14:31:31 -0500 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <4A8EEE56.3070708@fedoraproject.org> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> <4A8EB12A.9030604@math.unl.edu> <4A8EEE56.3070708@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <4A8EF613.3030905@math.unl.edu> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Can't speak for the board but what opensuse did was go from trying to > satisfy everybody (FAIL) to picking a default (right model). That > actually seems to validate what Fedora is doing. The default is > different because the community is different. Think about it. I call shenanigans. Can't use the opensuse example against me. :) They're offering *choice* of desktops displayed, just with a pre-chosen default. That's very much different than any of our mockups. -- Rex From mmcgrath at redhat.com Fri Aug 21 19:32:32 2009 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 14:32:32 -0500 (CDT) Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <4A8EF31D.3070707@gmail.com> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> <4A8EB12A.9030604@math.unl.edu> <1250868576.3159.110.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A8EE64C.6090400@gmail.com> <4A8EF31D.3070707@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Aug 2009, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > On 08/21/2009 11:53 AM, Mike McGrath wrote: > > On Fri, 21 Aug 2009, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > > > >> On 08/21/2009 08:29 AM, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > >>> On Fri, 2009-08-21 at 09:37 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote: > >>>> Tom "spot" Callaway wrote: > >>>>> On 08/21/2009 10:04 AM, Rex Dieter wrote: > >>>>>> Then, look at the new website mockups. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> (perceived) Answer: Fedora is the fedora-desktop spin > >>>>> > >>>>> Well, I think the point here is that for the new, uninformed user, we > >>>>> need to present them with a single default choice. > >>>>> > >>>>> Forcing them to choose between: > >>>>> GNOME, KDE, Games, LXCE, EDU, Electronics, Security > >>>> > >>>> One can still offer options, but have a choice pre-selected by default, > >>>> akin to how some other distros are doing. > >>> > >>> I think one of the main misunderstandings/miscommunications about this > >>> redesign is why we are doing it. The goals of this redesign, from my > >>> understanding, is: > >>> > >>> 1) To grow adoption of Fedora by new prospective users > >>> > >>> 2) To grow community involvement in Fedora by growing the base of users > >>> from which we can recruit community members. > >>> > >>> Let me remind you of one more goal I think we *all* share (and as sad as > >>> it may be, is certainly one of my main goals in life): > >>> > >>> 3) To grow the general acceptance and usage of free & open source > >>> software. > >>> > >> > >> Okay, so the first question is: Fedora Board, are these the goals > >> you've handed off to the design team? I don't see them listed on: > >> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Website_redesign_2009 > >> > >> Goals seem pretty important. More important than the target audience > >> even. Those should be written down. > >> > > > > I think the specific goal(s) we're looking for with this discusion is > > entirely based around simplifying the get-fedora page. But to do that we > > realized we needed to beef up the spins page as to not sweep other spins > > under the rug. > > > Simplifying is not a goal. Making it easier for our target audience to > get Fedora is a goal. Getting more of our target audience to download > and try out Fedora is a goal. Getting more of our target audience to > fall in love with Fedora is a goal. > Sorry, I didn't mean to imply a Fedora goal. Goal in this case I simply intended "something we wanted to see get done" -Mike From mairin at linuxgrrl.com Fri Aug 21 19:31:13 2009 From: mairin at linuxgrrl.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn?= Duffy) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 15:31:13 -0400 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <4A8EE64C.6090400@gmail.com> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> <4A8EB12A.9030604@math.unl.edu> <1250868576.3159.110.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A8EE64C.6090400@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1250883073.8252.49.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2009-08-21 at 11:24 -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > If we decide that these are our goals, that allows us to start raising > questions based upon the goals -- for instance, if "growing the > community that we can recruit" from is a goal, maybe we want to be > promoting less popular spins on get-fedora so that we can increase the > developers of those spins. I don't follow the logic here. The goal is to increase overall community participation. It is not specifically targeting participation in spins. > > > With these goals in mind, it appears that rather than only catering to > > the current community base we have (which is inarguably extremely > > important), we need to also consider the users and community members we > > do not have in the design as we are basically trying to sell our > > software and our community to them (whom you do not seem to be > > considering.) So considering the 'newbie' case is more important with > > the goals stated above than it ever has been for our website before. > > > The use of "newbies" is difficult in this paragraph. The design goals > expressed by the Board are definitely not for "newbies" in the sense of > esr's Aunt Tilly. It's for "People who are somewhat computer savvy, but > may be new to Fedora and/or Linux and FOSS in general". So these are > people who have some technical background but may not have experience > with FOSS. I was assuming that folks knew that was what I meant by newbies since we discussed this at length earlier, I apologize for the vagueness. But you've explained exactly what was meant here. > > Also, I still don't see much of a sales pitch for the community in these > mockups. We need things like: The goal as I stated it and have understood it is: "2) To grow community involvement in Fedora by growing the base of users from which we can recruit community members. " Note that the goal is not stated "Recruit more community members." Just "grow the base." We have design work & updates for join.fpo scheduled for F13 - and I would imagine then is when we'll work on adding hooks to getting folks to join the project all over the site and related properties as well as fixing up join.fpo. > > * credits the Fedora community/KDE SIG/Fedora Design Team created this Credits who for what? > * More first person pronouns "We made this to you" I don't follow. > * Support: Troubleshooting? Fedora community IRC/mailing list/forum link. There is a "help and support" link under resources in the right column here: http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/page2.png And there is a very prominent "I need help" box here: http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/page3.png That would point to: http://fedoraproject.org/get-help Are these not sufficient? > * Fedora Classroom! Can we pull off a "Fedora's downloading, learn to > use it by joining a Fedora classroom session on IRC." [schedule of > classes] [Read transcripts for past classes] on page3.png? We are not ready for this. We haven't even gotten the basics figured out. > > > Who do you know who dabbles in Linux or has always wanted to try it out? > > Think of that person. Imagine they are on the phone with you, and are > > asking you how they can get a copy of Fedora: > > > Heh, bad analogy. If I'm on the phone with someone it's actually pretty > simple to figure out what would be a good fit and have them download the > right thing. You expect to hold a conversation with someone on the > phone so you have the luxury of asking a lot of questions and talking > about a lot of details. The web page has to address a much more > difficult problem -- leading someone to a decent decision without losing > their attention in the meantime. Even over the phone it's difficult to figure out the exact download they need then read a long url over the phone or navigate page-by-page over the phone "click here.... okay now click there" But you are absolutely right, the phone is cake compared to doing the same thing on a webpage. > > > I understand to you, adding KDE is 'just one more choice', but I hope > > the above illustrates it all is 'just one more' that adds up to just one > > big confusing mess than sends new users running screaming from our > > website to other distros (or giving up on Linux altogether!) > > I buy into the too much choice argument but the current mockup doesn't > make clear that the user has any choice at all. If that's intentional, > there's no room for compromise here. If that's not intentional, then it > needs to be worked on as a priority as without that, none of the people > who are not on the get-fedora page will have anyreason to make the spins > page better. The choice on the page right now is, "Download Fedora" or "Download a different Fedora." That is intentional. Does that make sense or is this problematic to you? With that intention in mind, I totally admit maybe the "download a different Fedora" choice isn't prominent enough. I'm thinking adding a colorful/graphical banner to the sidebar to drive traffic to spins.fpo might be a good solution. > > > Since Linux does not have the market share I think we'd all like to see > > in an ideal world, btw, I don't think following what other distros are > > doing is (1) innovative (2) going to get us to where we want to be. > > Especially if those distros don't share our goals as a distro, and > > especially if the success of those distros' designs are unknown or not > > shared. If the goal is to increase free & open source software adoption > > and if the goal is to do that by spreading Fedora far & wide, wouldn't > > we be better off trying to be innovative of our own accord and maybe > > looking to the big players (OS X, Windows) to see what they do? > > > There's a few tangents in here: > > 1) Linux's market share is growing so getting antsy about changing how > we do things isn't necessarily what we want to do. It's growing slowly. We're one of the more popular distros. Why would we follow a less popular distro's lead? > > 2) OS X comes preinstalled on proprietary hardware. Is that what we > want to do? Windows comes preinstalled on computers or in boxes at the > store. Is that the model we want to adopt? In both of these cases, the > "download now!" page is pretty difficult to find :-) Yes but my point wasn't their download pages or lack thereof. My point was there is no: OS X GNOME OS X KDE OS X XFCE OS X For Your Mom OS X For My Dog OS X Super Mega Awesome Ultimate 3000 There is *one* OS X. If I use OS X, and my friend in Toledo uses OS X, I can have a conversation about it with them and we can understand what the other is talking about. If I use Fedora with GNOME, and my friend in Toledo uses Fedora with KDE, and we talk about it, we're going to end up getting pretty confused. > > 3) I think the goal of increasing market share is already taken by other > distros. Ubuntu, SusE, RHEL, for instance. The commercial distros. If > we're going to be innovative, I'd rather we did it by concentrating on > the things we do well or want to do well (Infinity Freedom Voice, > Freedom Friends Features First, Upstream upstream upstream, Leading but > not bleeding, We know how to build a community, put your hand-wavey > slogan here). Market share for the sake of market share is not > something I want Fedora to strive for. It's not for the sake of market share. It's for the sake of growing our potential contributor base. And I see it as a two-phased approach - fix the downloads so people can get the darn thing, then fix our contributor entryway so it's easy to sign up and help and do something meaningful. Even the Scientologists don't try to recruit you from the get-go by talking about their philosophies and ideals (which I'm sure are quite important to them.) They offer you FREE MUSEUM TICKETS. Then they use that as a platform to try to sell you on joining. > >> But let's not get muddled in details. > >> > >> Let me be brutally honest: withholding choice and options here and/or > >> diminishing kde's visibility *will* disenfranchise a lot of people. > >> We'll lose out PR-wise big time, especially in light of opensuse's > >> recent work that is largely perceived as doing right by the community. > > > > There is a clear trade-off here - either you "do wrong" by the > > community, or you "do wrong" by users who want to try your distro but > > run away screaming because you've confused and scared them. It seems > > easier to reject the latter folks because they're not here yet, but > > we'll fail if we don't continue to grow. > > > If you disenfranchise the current community, you'll shrink. This recent > blog post is relevant. If you're as compulsively click happy as I am, > you've already read it:: > http://www.codesimplicity.com/archives/137 > > the secret to growth is to retain your current users because if you can > do that, new ones will start coming by because they want to try > something new. It's a balance between current folks and newbies. You need to keep both happy, as I pointed out earlier. I still do not think catering to only current users is the way to grow. The phrase "preaching to the choir" comes to mind. > > If the current in-progress designs would disenfranchise current > > community members, let's work on a way to address that *without* scaring > > away new prospects a well. > > I think this is the heart of the matter. I definitely agree with it. > However, I think we're looking at the ramifications of this differently. > There's two possibilities for why there's disagreement: > > * Which is valued more, getting new members or keeping old members? I > think that decreasing the morale of contributors is a more pressing > concern than gaining more users. Gaining more users is important so > that we can gain more contributors but its the old adage about it not > making sense to lose what you have in order to get something of > uncertain worth. Keeping old members for certain, but I really do not understand why this design would cause us to lose community members. I really don't. And when I ask people why, the only feedback I get is that "there is no KDE link." Okay. That doesn't tell me that the design is going to drive away people from the entire pool of Fedora users and contributors. That tells me we might have an issue with a subset of that, the Fedora KDE community. So already the problem is smaller than you've put it. Then I ask these folks, "is there anything else about the mockups you don't like?" And some people tell me they don't like the panda. And that's about it. So you are going to tell me that: - no explicit KDE link, KDE is treated equally as all other spins - a panda bear Are going to be the downfall of the entire Fedora Community? If folks have specific reasons other than the lack of a KDE link on the main download page for being 'disenfranchised' by this design, I would love to hear them. > * The level of problem that exists either with disenfranchising current > members with the new design or driving away potential new contributors > with the old design. My perception is that we're gaining new users > despite the problems with the old design and that the new design is seen > as a huge demoralizing issue for the current contributors. Your > perception is probably that we're losing a lot of potential new users > due to poor design and the current contributors will "get over it" once > the new design is deployed. I do not understand what there is to "get over." "Get over" that the website looks clean & professional rather than the limited & static rush job with almost no time spent on it that it is? I can vouch for the current site being a rush job and a mess being the case, since what is there I helped create. Does everyone here know what the goal to accomplish was with the design of the current pages? I'll tell you: Goal: When the fedoraproject.org wiki goes down because of bandwidth overload from a release, be able to show some very low-bandwidth, static content for Fedora so users don't get a big fat error message when they go to fedoraproject.org. The current site certainly fulfills that goal. I do believe it's not a particularly lofty goal and we should strive for more. Remember when fedoraproject.org was one big blue bar with links elsewhere, mostly at redhat.com? Remember when fedoraproject.org *was* the wiki, which was Moinmoin at the time? I am not trying to push for change that people who put time and effort into Fedora to "just get over"... Wow. If I was designing things to just be gotten over - well I wouldn't be doing it, I'll put it that way. NOBODY is proposing to redesign our website to the exclusion of our current user and contributor base. Strawman has been beaten into a straw-y pulp. Let's move on: Why is the proposed design demoralizing? > It's hard to guage this effect because one > is psychological and the other is a lack of something rather than the > addition of something. We could have a poll of contributors to > determine how many of them dislike where the design is heading but that > could be seen by some as a vote (rather than a poll to see how people > are feeling) which could make people feel worse in the end. > > >> > >> Is that a price the board is willing to pay? > > > > I think the board has made a statement that they would like to see us > > recruiting a wider user base rather than only catering to the people we > > already have in our community. I think a fair way to keep both current > > community members happy and to not scare away our potential users (and > > hopefully potential new community members) is: > > > > 1) By default, make the very first 'download' landing page dead simple > > for the newbies. Make it one-click and hard to screw up and > > easy-to-understand. > > > > 2) Have a very obvious 'If you know what you're doing, go over here' > > link on the main download landing page that takes you to a screen > > designed for the ideal 'already knows what their doing' user, giving > > them a full set of choices. > > > > For #1, this is (and it's absolutely a work-in-progress) the proposal on > > the table: > > > > http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/page2.png > > > > It would be accompanied by a page listing out the desktop spin in other > > architectures and with bittorrent links. this page (not mocked up as of > > yet, I'll try to work on it today) would also have information about > > obtaining physical media (free media program, directory of vendors) > > > > For #2, this is the spins page design (again, absolutely a > > work-in-progress) proposal: > > > > http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/spins-directory.6.png > > > Actually, your number 2 says: "Have a very obvious 'If you know what > you're doing, go over here' link on the main download landing page". I > think that's the main point of failure currently. The current page2.png > mockup does not drive people who want to learn about or try different > options to the spins page. Thought experiment: Try starting with a > design for page2.png that has only two links but is absolutely horrible: > > +------------------------- > | _What's a Spin?_ > | Fedora has many differen > | you can find the Fedora > | perfect for you! > +------------------------- > > +=======================+ > | | > | All Fedora Spins! | > | | > +=======================+ > (Download Fedora) > > > Then make a few incrementals in between before arriving at what we have now: > > +==================+ > | Download Fedora! | > +==================+ > (Other download options) > > > Think about which ones you love and which ones you hate. Write down > what your reasons are. Then show the people that hate the current > mockups and get their rankings and rationale. This is a good idea. I'll give it a shot. > > I think a balance can be struck between mass of download options and not > enough information to proceed but it's going to require compromise on > both sides. You can present more information and in not precisely the > best manner and not drive new users to go elsewhere. And you can not > present all the options and still get interested people to click > further. But it's hard to see where that compromise point might be when > there's not a clear understanding that the page is open for input and > what the impact is when viewing the changes. Someone who says "Only > putting all the spins on one page is fair" might be willing to say > "This two link page draws me to click through to the more information > page satisfactorily" once they see a mockup that attempts to make that > happen. Well, the latter is how it is currently designed and people seem to still take issue with that so I'm really at a loss. I definitely don't want to be spinning my wheels making a bunch of mockups that really aren't needed other than to try to convince people that I'm not sure will ever be pleased that the direction we're going is a sane one. > > [snip spins page stuff] > > The spins mockup page is a bit beside the point right now. Nobody is > confident that anyone is going to view the spins page so how it looks is > not something anyone's going to get excited about. Think of it like this: > > """ > +==================+ > | | > | Install Windows | > | For free! | > | | > +==================+ > (other download options) I think the sad truth here that folks seem to not want to admit is that most people do not want to download more spins. And most people that do know exactly where to get their spin of choice. I think the hidden agenda here is that certain spins want a platform for marketing and growing their particular spin. That's fine. But get.fpo is not for advertising spins. That is not the point of the page. The point of get.fpo is to give Fedora to people, most of whom will never know or care what a spin is to be brutally honest. And once they have the desktop spin, they can install ANYTHING they want or need. They can even install KDE. If people really want to promote KDE or other spins, eg, rather than co-opt the get.fpo page, a better plan might be to make it easier to install and switch to after someone has already bought into Fedora. And by the way, I'd be saying the same exact thing about the desktop/gnome spin if the board had deemed KDE to be the default. > Maybe we can put the Linux distributions on the other downloads page > with two views -- one by popularity (the default) and the second in > alphabetical order. You can even tell people to go to > fedora.microsoft.com to get it. I think you can really promote Fedora > by doing a good job of making the description on that second page rock! Yeh I think I already wrote up that I was gonna have two tabs, popularity/alphabetical on that mockup. It's a good idea. ~m From a.badger at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 19:33:48 2009 From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 12:33:48 -0700 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <4A8EDFF5.3050808@redhat.com> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <4A8EDFF5.3050808@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4A8EF69C.5080303@gmail.com> On 08/21/2009 10:57 AM, John Poelstra wrote: > Rex Dieter said the following on 08/21/2009 07:04 AM Pacific Time: >> OK, I get the idea behind all of this, really I do. Much of it is >> great, but let me share what's been nagging at the back of my mind for >> some time. It's just been hard to put into words, so I'll try my best >> here. >> >> Let's get back to the question: What is Fedora? > > The question of "What is Fedora" has still not adequately been answered > for me. Refocusing the download page is *part* of getting to answering > the question, but I still do not believe we are as clear as we could be > about what we *are* (present) and what we *want* to be (future). I > realize others believe that defining it too much will stifle the project. > Fedora is the community of people who are involved with Fedora. >> I thought a general consensus was something akin to: a solid flexible >> base distro technology that can be used for many different purposes > > I think this is a definition we have historically held to, but to me it > is too vague and uninspiring. It lacks focus. It tries to be too many > things to too many people. It is a recipe for mediocrity, not > excellence. I am not saying it cannot be one part of what we are, but > if that is the sole definition of what we are and what we want to be, > then we are destined to be "good," but never "great." > > I want Fedora to be great. I cannot think of a super successful project > or company that has 'been all things to all people.' They are usually > very good because they focus on a few things and work on doing those > things very well. Fedora still needs to be clearer about what things we > want to do very well. And when we pick those things they need to be > things we can measure and evaluate--another behavior of very successful > companies. I realize Fedora is not a "company", but I think the > principle still applies. > I agree with this on a certain level and disagree with it on another level. I think that the Fedora Project should concentrate on being stellar at community building. The Fedora Product(s) should include a "solid flexible base distro for many different purposes" which may well be good without being great. On top of that one product, we can create other products that should strive to be great and focus on one area. But the project as a whole should be diverse and try to make the "solid flexible base" something that everyone can build on top of. >> Then, look at the new website mockups. >> >> (perceived) Answer: Fedora is the fedora-desktop spin > > The website mockups are meant to address the requirements specified by > the board and discussion on this list. > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Website_redesign_2009 > > If the requirements are wrong, then that is separate discussion that we > should have. Does there need to be more discussion around the > requirements? > Yes, I think so. Many of the issues I've seen raised speak to the requirements, not to the design. Additionally, as mentioned before, the goals of the redesign are not mentioned in that page, only the audience that the page is meant to target. For instance, there's a difference between the goal of: "Get new but technical users to download Fedora" and "Get new but technical users to fall in love with Fedora". A more complex set of upfront choices might even be more helpful for achieving the second goal. -Toshio -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Aug 21 19:35:50 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 01:05:50 +0530 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <4A8EF613.3030905@math.unl.edu> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> <4A8EB12A.9030604@math.unl.edu> <4A8EEE56.3070708@fedoraproject.org> <4A8EF613.3030905@math.unl.edu> Message-ID: <4A8EF716.5000402@fedoraproject.org> On 08/22/2009 01:01 AM, Rex Dieter wrote: > Rahul Sundaram wrote: > >> Can't speak for the board but what opensuse did was go from trying to >> satisfy everybody (FAIL) to picking a default (right model). That >> actually seems to validate what Fedora is doing. The default is >> different because the community is different. Think about it. > > I call shenanigans. Can't use the opensuse example against me. :) > > They're offering *choice* of desktops displayed, just with a pre-chosen > default. That's very much different than any of our mockups. Fedora offers choices as well, of course. It is not correct to imply otherwise. The design is merely different. As far as the distribution itself is concerned, they did go from using choice as a excuse not to make a decision to actually making a decision to favour one environment. That absolutely validates what Fedora has been doing. Rahul From mairin at linuxgrrl.com Fri Aug 21 19:42:49 2009 From: mairin at linuxgrrl.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn?= Duffy) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 15:42:49 -0400 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <4A8EF0AB.9050304@gmail.com> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> <4A8EB12A.9030604@math.unl.edu> <4A8ECAEF.9060107@gmail.com> <1250875368.7596.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A8EF0AB.9050304@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1250883769.9488.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2009-08-21 at 12:08 -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > On 08/21/2009 10:22 AM, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > > That snippet above is from the mockup for the front page of > > www.fedoraproject.org, a page which today has no download button. > > > No it's not. It's from page2.png. when you view page2.png, above the > fold, there's a Download Fedora button and a small link that only says > "Other Download options". > > After that there's a pull box which says a bit more about them. But > that's below the psychological fold. It's beyond the main part of the > page. It's in a pull box (In fact, it's the last item in the pull box > so it's even below the psychological fold of the pull box. This is not > a good design for getting people to the information on the spins page. It is on both. What I was told I should do with the design is make it easy to get Fedora for people less experienced with open source software, and to make it possible to get other flavors of Fedora for people who know what they are doing. People who know what they are doing are certainly more capable of clicking on the smaller 'more options' link or looking at the pull box (which may or may not be below the fold in the final site, the resolutions in the mockups are not accurate representations) than the less experienced users are capable of making a design between get fedora or get more fedora. > > Side note: In the context of the larger website, it's not a good design > either. By the time someone clicks on a download link, they're looking > for downloads rather than info. There needs to be a more information > about spins link on the front page that takes people to the spins page too. Yes, they are looking for a download. Not a novel and a screenful of combinatorical links. > > > These pages are also not the only exposure I intend the spins pages to > > get. For example, for the www.fpo design we have conceptualized a lot > > more rotating, static content driven little widgets that could be used > > for marketing different aspects of fedora: > > > > http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/page1.png > > > > We could absolutely have a spins-centric content block that serves as a > > promo for the spins site and maybe even cycles through highlighting > > different popular spins. We could also have a small graphical banner on > > the main download page to drive people towards it. Something like, "More > > flavors of Fedora" > > > The problem with the rotating banner ads is that they serve a different > purpose. They're an ad, not navigation. Navigation needs to be > findable. A randomly rotating banner ad fails to do that. That's not true. Many times banner ads are more effective than actual navigation. I also never proposed that the banner rotate, I think you read that into it. It could rotate by featuring a different spin, e.g., like so: More Flavors of Fedora like: Fedora Kde! Check them all out > --- More Flavors of Fedora like: Fedora Electronic Lab! Check them all out > --- More Flavors of Fedora like: Fedora Security Lab! Check them all out > --- More Flavors of Fedora like: Fedora XFCE! Check them all out > > > > Don't forget we are also in the process of trying to get Fedora Insight > > up and running, which I think is another great opportunity to promote > > KDE and other spins and drive more traffic to the spins site. > > > >>> Equally, how do we measure success? If a higher percentage of people > >>> download a non-default spin? > > > > The goal here isn't to drive downloads of non-default spins. The goal > > here is to get more people downloading FEDORA, period. I would measure > > success, then, as being a greater number of total downloads, not just > > for spins because again the goal is to not drive spins downloads up. > > > That is not the goal. If Fedora downloads double but Fedora KDE > downloads drop to zero, I would argue strenuously that the new design is > a failure. Right that's why you have to read the whole email :) I said the metrics should be both that total downloads increase and that spin downloads do not decrease. ~m From jwboyer at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 20:31:52 2009 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 16:31:52 -0400 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <4A8EF69C.5080303@gmail.com> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <4A8EDFF5.3050808@redhat.com> <4A8EF69C.5080303@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090821203152.GJ20831@hansolo.jdub.homelinux.org> On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 12:33:48PM -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: >On 08/21/2009 10:57 AM, John Poelstra wrote: >> Rex Dieter said the following on 08/21/2009 07:04 AM Pacific Time: >>> OK, I get the idea behind all of this, really I do. Much of it is >>> great, but let me share what's been nagging at the back of my mind for >>> some time. It's just been hard to put into words, so I'll try my best >>> here. >>> >>> Let's get back to the question: What is Fedora? >> >> The question of "What is Fedora" has still not adequately been answered >> for me. Refocusing the download page is *part* of getting to answering >> the question, but I still do not believe we are as clear as we could be >> about what we *are* (present) and what we *want* to be (future). I >> realize others believe that defining it too much will stifle the project. >> > >Fedora is the community of people who are involved with Fedora. So we're FedoraSpace/FedoraBook? >I agree with this on a certain level and disagree with it on another >level. I think that the Fedora Project should concentrate on being >stellar at community building. The Fedora Product(s) should include a >"solid flexible base distro for many different purposes" which may well >be good without being great. On top of that one product, we can create >other products that should strive to be great and focus on one area. >But the project as a whole should be diverse and try to make the "solid >flexible base" something that everyone can build on top of. I'm sorry, but when I read this it sounds like you might as well be saying "Fedora is a social networking experiment centered around creating a marginal distro of new stuff that other people polish up." I'm pretty sure that isn't what you intended at all, but it's exactly what a newbie might interpret. And it sounds pretty boring to me. josh From mairin at linuxgrrl.com Fri Aug 21 19:44:01 2009 From: mairin at linuxgrrl.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn?= Duffy) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 15:44:01 -0400 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <4A8EF31D.3070707@gmail.com> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> <4A8EB12A.9030604@math.unl.edu> <1250868576.3159.110.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A8EE64C.6090400@gmail.com> <4A8EF31D.3070707@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1250883841.9488.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2009-08-21 at 12:18 -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > Simplifying the get-fedora page is aimed at growing the userbase in > total. But the argument is being made that the new design will hurt > the ability of some areas of the project to retain and grow the > contributor base. The spins aren't the only other areas of the project. > I think that beefing up the spins page is aimed at > rectifying that but it doesn't help if people who are looking to > download fedora aren't being enticed to click to the spins page. Who wants to click on the spins page? Who do we want to click on the spin page? ~m From stickster at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 20:56:52 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 16:56:52 -0400 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <1250883073.8252.49.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> <4A8EB12A.9030604@math.unl.edu> <1250868576.3159.110.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A8EE64C.6090400@gmail.com> <1250883073.8252.49.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20090821205652.GA14615@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 03:31:13PM -0400, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > > Also, I still don't see much of a sales pitch for the community in these > > mockups. We need things like: > > The goal as I stated it and have understood it is: > > "2) To grow community involvement in Fedora by growing the base of users > from which we can recruit community members. " > > Note that the goal is not stated "Recruit more community members." Just > "grow the base." We have design work & updates for join.fpo scheduled > for F13 - and I would imagine then is when we'll work on adding hooks to > getting folks to join the project all over the site and related > properties as well as fixing up join.fpo. Certainly -- for now, we are trying to repair the specific problem of people being confused and turned away by our download site at present, and one of the primary goals is be a more inclusive community to potential contributors and participants. And those participants are more than people who want to work on spins. They're people who might file bugs, or help with translations, or commit free creative works to the commons, or a myriad of other things. We cannot specifically target each of those groups effectively with a single page, so the proper design is to be as inclusive as possible and direct those groups to a single default that will help them get started. Mo, myself, and many other people know first-hand the problems created by our current pages because we've seen people who want to get involved, and can't figure out how to download our platform because it's too confusing and they don't want to do "the wrong thing." > > > I understand to you, adding KDE is 'just one more choice', but I hope > > > the above illustrates it all is 'just one more' that adds up to just one > > > big confusing mess than sends new users running screaming from our > > > website to other distros (or giving up on Linux altogether!) > > > > I buy into the too much choice argument but the current mockup doesn't > > make clear that the user has any choice at all. If that's intentional, > > there's no room for compromise here. If that's not intentional, then it > > needs to be worked on as a priority as without that, none of the people > > who are not on the get-fedora page will have anyreason to make the spins > > page better. > > The choice on the page right now is, "Download Fedora" or "Download a > different Fedora." That is intentional. Does that make sense or is this > problematic to you? > > With that intention in mind, I totally admit maybe the "download a > different Fedora" choice isn't prominent enough. I'm thinking adding a > colorful/graphical banner to the sidebar to drive traffic to spins.fpo > might be a good solution. One of the requirements the Board generated was to provide a clear route to the Spins hub from the get-fedora page (for people who want more choices), and to the get-fedora page from the Spins hub (for people who can't decide). If a banner solves that issue in a way the Board generally approves, I see no problem. > > > Since Linux does not have the market share I think we'd all like to see > > > in an ideal world, btw, I don't think following what other distros are > > > doing is (1) innovative (2) going to get us to where we want to be. > > > Especially if those distros don't share our goals as a distro, and > > > especially if the success of those distros' designs are unknown or not > > > shared. If the goal is to increase free & open source software adoption > > > and if the goal is to do that by spreading Fedora far & wide, wouldn't > > > we be better off trying to be innovative of our own accord and maybe > > > looking to the big players (OS X, Windows) to see what they do? > > > > > There's a few tangents in here: > > > > 1) Linux's market share is growing so getting antsy about changing how > > we do things isn't necessarily what we want to do. > > It's growing slowly. We're one of the more popular distros. Why would we > follow a less popular distro's lead? I'm a little discouraged here because "getting antsy" sounds uncomfortably close to "being complacent." When I had the opportunity to work with Mo on some of the design, we looked directly at successful projects like Mozilla, which does an exceptional job of attracting contributors with a clear, easy to follow website design that is very attractive to a wide audience. We also looked at a number of general-purpose sites where the design upheld the goal of the vendor, and used these to checkpoint our work. I'm not interested in following other distros in upgrading our website design, I'm interested in following successful designers, as long as the design supports the message, and that message is "You too can become a contributor." > > 3) I think the goal of increasing market share is already taken by other > > distros. Ubuntu, SusE, RHEL, for instance. The commercial distros. If > > we're going to be innovative, I'd rather we did it by concentrating on > > the things we do well or want to do well (Infinity Freedom Voice, > > Freedom Friends Features First, Upstream upstream upstream, Leading but > > not bleeding, We know how to build a community, put your hand-wavey > > slogan here). Market share for the sake of market share is not > > something I want Fedora to strive for. > > It's not for the sake of market share. It's for the sake of growing our > potential contributor base. And I see it as a two-phased approach - fix > the downloads so people can get the darn thing, then fix our contributor > entryway so it's easy to sign up and help and do something meaningful. > > Even the Scientologists don't try to recruit you from the get-go by > talking about their philosophies and ideals (which I'm sure are quite > important to them.) They offer you FREE MUSEUM TICKETS. Then they use > that as a platform to try to sell you on joining. Mo is precisely right here, market share has never been the point. (It's arguable we have that too, given the turnover that I've seen anecdotally.) But let's be clear, ignoring the rest of the world is a stupid, short-sighted option. Instead, we should be making ourselves as effective as possible at spreading our message of Freedom Friends Features First(*). The way we do that effectively, historically, as Fedora, is to promote the idea that You Have Something to Contribute. We want to see you contribute free stuff, using free tools. So we will get you to that point as expediently as you want. (*) BTW, let's avoid I.F.V., it's old and Marketing doesn't use it anymore. If you see it somewhere in Fedora, let me or Marketing know so we can help people replace it with up to date material. > > the secret to growth is to retain your current users because if you can > > do that, new ones will start coming by because they want to try > > something new. > > It's a balance between current folks and newbies. You need to keep both > happy, as I pointed out earlier. I still do not think catering to only > current users is the way to grow. The phrase "preaching to the choir" > comes to mind. Sometimes we can't keep everyone happy, but we try our best to do the right thing for Fedora overall. In summary, the redesign does this: * Current spins state: Ugly listing page * Future spins state: Beautiful, organized hub, with customizable content and domain names * Current get-fedora state: Ugly page with lots of options * Future get-fedora state: Beautiful page with fewer options and route to spins hub * Current front page: God-awful * Future front page: Beautiful page with easy d/l and routes to community, spins hub, events, et al. On balance I think the designs succeed admirably in killing off complacency and making someone's experience on the site feel more efficient and comfortable. We want them to process that experience and understand that the Fedora Project is going to give them a comfortable way to contribute, just as we give them a comfortable way to get started with our tools. In short, the new designs suck less. Maybe they suck in different ways, but it's certainly less overall. > I think the sad truth here that folks seem to not want to admit is that > most people do not want to download more spins. And most people that do > know exactly where to get their spin of choice. I think the hidden > agenda here is that certain spins want a platform for marketing and > growing their particular spin. That's fine. But get.fpo is not for > advertising spins. That is not the point of the page. And as a matter of fact, we are now going to provide that, with a well-matching design and customizability, and even subdomains as desired, where there has heretofore been nothing. > The point of get.fpo is to give Fedora to people, most of whom will > never know or care what a spin is to be brutally honest. And once they > have the desktop spin, they can install ANYTHING they want or need. They > can even install KDE. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From a.badger at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 21:15:55 2009 From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 14:15:55 -0700 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <20090821203152.GJ20831@hansolo.jdub.homelinux.org> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <4A8EDFF5.3050808@redhat.com> <4A8EF69C.5080303@gmail.com> <20090821203152.GJ20831@hansolo.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: <4A8F0E8B.2030500@gmail.com> On 08/21/2009 01:31 PM, Josh Boyer wrote: > On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 12:33:48PM -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: >> On 08/21/2009 10:57 AM, John Poelstra wrote: >>> Rex Dieter said the following on 08/21/2009 07:04 AM Pacific Time: >>>> OK, I get the idea behind all of this, really I do. Much of it is >>>> great, but let me share what's been nagging at the back of my mind for >>>> some time. It's just been hard to put into words, so I'll try my best >>>> here. >>>> >>>> Let's get back to the question: What is Fedora? >>> >>> The question of "What is Fedora" has still not adequately been answered >>> for me. Refocusing the download page is *part* of getting to answering >>> the question, but I still do not believe we are as clear as we could be >>> about what we *are* (present) and what we *want* to be (future). I >>> realize others believe that defining it too much will stifle the project. >>> >> >> Fedora is the community of people who are involved with Fedora. > > So we're FedoraSpace/FedoraBook? > In a way. But with different bells and whistles and tinsel. Can't forget the tinsel. Let me put it this way -- At this point in time if all of the people you respect within Fedora decided they were going to go work on and use a different Linux distro, would you stay on and continue to be a Board member, work on releng, hang out in the #fedora-irc channels because you are primarily concerned with the Fedora the Linux Distro or would you quietly check out the other Linux distro and think seriously about switching since everyone you'd grown comfortable with working with had moved over there? >> I agree with this on a certain level and disagree with it on another >> level. I think that the Fedora Project should concentrate on being >> stellar at community building. The Fedora Product(s) should include a >> "solid flexible base distro for many different purposes" which may well >> be good without being great. On top of that one product, we can create >> other products that should strive to be great and focus on one area. >> But the project as a whole should be diverse and try to make the "solid >> flexible base" something that everyone can build on top of. > > I'm sorry, but when I read this it sounds like you might as well be saying > "Fedora is a social networking experiment centered around creating a marginal > distro of new stuff that other people polish up." > > I'm pretty sure that isn't what you intended at all, but it's exactly what > a newbie might interpret. And it sounds pretty boring to me. > More like: Fedora is a social networking experiment which produces both a boring old base for producing distros and a highly polished, up-to-date, innovative desktop for people to use. ie: we should be creating both the "Desktop Spin" which is what most end-users download, get excited about, brag about using to their friends; and the infrastructure and packages to allow people to create other spins. I think this aligns well with our current stated goals and direction -- but not entirely with poelcat's vision which is why I wanted to write it. (And come to that, the Free Software Movement as a whole is a social networking experiment which produces both boring and exciting stuff. I just think that Fedora can do the social part better than average.) -Toshio -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From a.badger at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 21:39:29 2009 From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 14:39:29 -0700 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <1250883841.9488.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> <4A8EB12A.9030604@math.unl.edu> <1250868576.3159.110.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A8EE64C.6090400@gmail.com> <4A8EF31D.3070707@gmail.com> <1250883841.9488.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4A8F1411.4000403@gmail.com> On 08/21/2009 12:44 PM, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > On Fri, 2009-08-21 at 12:18 -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: >> Simplifying the get-fedora page is aimed at growing the userbase in >> total. But the argument is being made that the new design will hurt >> the ability of some areas of the project to retain and grow the >> contributor base. > > The spins aren't the only other areas of the project. > Correct. Could you point out where I'm saying they are? >> I think that beefing up the spins page is aimed at >> rectifying that but it doesn't help if people who are looking to >> download fedora aren't being enticed to click to the spins page. > > Who wants to click on the spins page? > That's in the first part of my post here: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2009-August/msg00049.html Summarised: New and curious users (which I argue is really anyone that gets as far as wanting to run Fedora) whose strategy for learning is to read about things instead of downloading a livecd and trying it out (which is not everyone and why having a prominent default spin in addition to directing people to the spins page *is* a good idea). > Who do we want to click on the spin page? > I think the same people as who want to click there. After all, if they want to click through to the spins page, why are we trying to stop them. -Toshio -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From mairin at linuxgrrl.com Fri Aug 21 22:04:49 2009 From: mairin at linuxgrrl.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn?= Duffy) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 18:04:49 -0400 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <4A8F1411.4000403@gmail.com> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> <4A8EB12A.9030604@math.unl.edu> <1250868576.3159.110.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A8EE64C.6090400@gmail.com> <4A8EF31D.3070707@gmail.com> <1250883841.9488.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A8F1411.4000403@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1250892289.9488.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2009-08-21 at 14:39 -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > On 08/21/2009 12:44 PM, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > > On Fri, 2009-08-21 at 12:18 -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > >> Simplifying the get-fedora page is aimed at growing the userbase in > >> total. But the argument is being made that the new design will hurt > >> the ability of some areas of the project to retain and grow the > >> contributor base. > > > > The spins aren't the only other areas of the project. > > > Correct. Could you point out where I'm saying they are? You didn't. :) But when terms like 'demoralizing' or 'disenfranchising' are being thrown around, I like pointing out the scope here isn't the entirety of Fedora-the-community. Growing our base of new users has the potential to help ALL parts of Fedora, and this design it seems has the potential to only hurt some parts of Fedora. > > >> I think that beefing up the spins page is aimed at > >> rectifying that but it doesn't help if people who are looking to > >> download fedora aren't being enticed to click to the spins page. > > > > Who wants to click on the spins page? > > > That's in the first part of my post here: > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2009-August/msg00049.html > > Summarised: New and curious users (which I argue is really anyone that > gets as far as wanting to run Fedora) whose strategy for learning is to > read about things instead of downloading a livecd and trying it out > (which is not everyone and why having a prominent default spin in > addition to directing people to the spins page *is* a good idea). People who are curious and who want to read before they try are going to look at the 'Handy Resources' section of this page and click through the manuals and guides and information there, aren't they? http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/page2.png Also, aren't new and curious folks going to check out www.fedoraproject.org too? My point being, this doesn't all gotta go down on get.fedoraproject.org. Like was mentioned earlier, we can have a content block on the front page calling out spins or talking about them. We can have content on Fedora Insight. If you're assuming new & curious users, they are gonna be looking at other parts of the site. > > Who do we want to click on the spin page? > > > I think the same people as who want to click there. After all, if they > want to click through to the spins page, why are we trying to stop them. Then who don't we want to click on it? We probably don't want people, for example, who expect a smooth desktop experience to muck around with spins too much because they aren't tested (not as much as the default spin anyway) right? What people are the spins trying to attract? For some spins, this is obvious (Art Studio, Electronic Lab.) For some spins, it's confounding (KDE, XFCE). ~m From mairin at linuxgrrl.com Fri Aug 21 22:20:45 2009 From: mairin at linuxgrrl.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn?= Duffy) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 18:20:45 -0400 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> Message-ID: <1250893245.9488.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2009-08-21 at 09:04 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote: > OK, I get the idea behind all of this, really I do. Much of it is > great, but let me share what's been nagging at the back of my mind for > some time. It's just been hard to put into words, so I'll try my best here. Um, this thread is a bit of a mess now so I'm not sure where to post these so I figured at the top made sense. I'm sorry if I'm breaking 5 different mailing list etiquette rules here. :( I drew out a little site map roughly based on the whiteboard scribblin' stickster and I did earlier: http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/wwwfpo_diagram.png I numbered the pages to hopefully make for easier discussion. Here's the current mockup for each page: 1) http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/page1.png 2) http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/page2.png 3) http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/spins-directory.6.png 4) no mockup yet 5) this is the actual ISO file 6) http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/page3.png 7) no mockup yet 8) no mockup yet 9) no mockup yet 10-13) mockup sorely out of date but: http://fedorapeople.org/groups/designteam/Projects/Fedora% 20Spins/Wireframes/spindetailsmock4.png Let me tell you where I intend to go from here, in order: - I'm going to update the spins directory page (#3) to list the spins in order of popularity by default, and also let users tab over to view the spins in alpha order - I'm going to add a content block to the spins directory page to explain what a spin is and link out to other spin-related resources (e.g. wiki page on how to roll your own) - I'm going to use some of Toshio's suggestions for the get-fedora page (#2) and play around with the balance between the DOWNLOAD NOW!!!!111 option and the 'other options' option. I'll probably make a few iterations here and solicit your input. - I'm going to create an updated mockup for the spins details pages (10-13). - I'm going to solicit feedback for all of these by posting stuff to this list when it's done as well as making posts to Planet Fedora. - By next Friday I am hoping to close out the feedback period so I can crank out the rest of the work (which is hopefully less controversial) so I can get the websites team a solid set of mockups by Sept. 20 for the spins and by Sept. 27 for the FPO-related stuffs. - F12 comes out and the new site design comes out. Hopefully you don't all hate me at this point and we have a website that at least most if not everyone can be proud of (if not at least unashamed of. :) ) Peace! ~m (in 91+F degree weather in Boston with no A/C, please take pity!) From stickster at gmail.com Fri Aug 21 23:01:59 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 19:01:59 -0400 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <1250893245.9488.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <1250893245.9488.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20090821230159.GF14615@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 06:20:45PM -0400, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > On Fri, 2009-08-21 at 09:04 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote: > > OK, I get the idea behind all of this, really I do. Much of it is > > great, but let me share what's been nagging at the back of my mind for > > some time. It's just been hard to put into words, so I'll try my best here. > > Um, this thread is a bit of a mess now so I'm not sure where to post > these so I figured at the top made sense. I'm sorry if I'm breaking 5 > different mailing list etiquette rules here. :( > > I drew out a little site map roughly based on the whiteboard scribblin' > stickster and I did earlier: > > http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/wwwfpo_diagram.png > > I numbered the pages to hopefully make for easier discussion. > > Here's the current mockup for each page: > > 1) http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/page1.png > > 2) http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/page2.png > > 3) http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/spins-directory.6.png > > 4) no mockup yet > > 5) this is the actual ISO file > > 6) http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/page3.png > > 7) no mockup yet > > 8) no mockup yet > > 9) no mockup yet > > 10-13) mockup sorely out of date but: > http://fedorapeople.org/groups/designteam/Projects/Fedora% > 20Spins/Wireframes/spindetailsmock4.png > > Let me tell you where I intend to go from here, in order: > > - I'm going to update the spins directory page (#3) to list the spins in > order of popularity by default, and also let users tab over to view the > spins in alpha order > > - I'm going to add a content block to the spins directory page to > explain what a spin is and link out to other spin-related resources > (e.g. wiki page on how to roll your own) > > - I'm going to use some of Toshio's suggestions for the get-fedora page > (#2) and play around with the balance between the DOWNLOAD NOW!!!!111 > option and the 'other options' option. I'll probably make a few > iterations here and solicit your input. > > - I'm going to create an updated mockup for the spins details pages > (10-13). > > - I'm going to solicit feedback for all of these by posting stuff to > this list when it's done as well as making posts to Planet Fedora. > > - By next Friday I am hoping to close out the feedback period so I can > crank out the rest of the work (which is hopefully less controversial) > so I can get the websites team a solid set of mockups by Sept. 20 for > the spins and by Sept. 27 for the FPO-related stuffs. > > - F12 comes out and the new site design comes out. Hopefully you don't > all hate me at this point and we have a website that at least most if > not everyone can be proud of (if not at least unashamed of. :) ) > > Peace! > > ~m > > (in 91+F degree weather in Boston with no A/C, please take pity!) Thanks for this diagram, it helps visualize the many entry points people have to the site. I think we're vastly overestimating potential to "hurt" any parts of Fedora here, because one of the things we can effectively do with this new design is to let teams do their own promotion, e.g. get.fedoraproject.org/my-spin. A team member showing off their work will now have somewhere to send people directly for information about that work, and getting involved therein, with less confusion for the people who potentially could contribute to that work. That's something we've not previously had, and furthermore in practice it renders moot a lot of the worries about how spins are made available. People who are looking for something specific are going to have a specific place to go for it. People who are looking for the a la carte menu will have a specific place to go for it. People who aren't sure and just want an easy choice will have a specific place to go for it. In all cases, the download can be easily followed with helpful information on support and getting involved. I think the work you've done thus far is excellent. There may be room for improvement still, and the Board will consider any alternatives that come out of the design process. But regardless, it's a far sight more attractive, functional, and effective than we have now. I'm very excited about the design and can't wait to see more next week. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From mathstuf at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 01:07:09 2009 From: mathstuf at gmail.com (Ben Boeckel) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 21:07:09 -0400 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? Message-ID: <200908212107.14387.MathStuf@gmail.com> Because something is being difficult about me sending via KNode/GMane (either unknown errors or spinning), I'm sending via KMail. Sorry for breaking the thread. --Ben -------------- next part -------------- Followup-To: gmane.linux.redhat.fedora.advisory-board Lines: 140 From: Ben Boeckel Subject: Re: website mockups, what is fedora? To: fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com Reply-To: MathStuf at gmail.com Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 19:07:27 -0400 References: <4A8EA95D.4000206 at math.unl.edu> User-Agent: KNode/4.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8Bit Newsgroups: gmane.linux.redhat.fedora.advisory-board -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Rex Dieter wrote: > OK, I get the idea behind all of this, really I do. Much of it is > great, but let me share what's been nagging at the back of my mind for > some time. It's just been hard to put into words, so I'll try my best here. > > Let's get back to the question: What is Fedora? > > I thought a general consensus was something akin to: a solid flexible > base distro technology that can be used for many different purposes > > Then, look at the new website mockups. > > (perceived) Answer: Fedora is the fedora-desktop spin > > The KDE SIG, developers and users alike, for better or worse, draw this > natural conclusion. It's a perceived step back from the status quo, > where KDE is mentioned on the main download page anyway. We feel that > the main download page mockups don't adequately reflect the scope of the > Fedora project (i.e. its developer and user community) and that it would > be beneficial for Fedora to properly advertise that scope. > > Especially for the classes of users identified as: > People who are somewhat computer savvy, but may be new to Fedora and/or > Linux and FOSS in general > or > People who don't know where to find anything other than the default > offering (i.e., is there something else available?) > These folks likely want to know more about the project scope, and > (over)simplification is missing the opportunity to inform and educate them. > > > -- Rex I've read this thread and instead of micromanaging threaded replies, I'll just post my thoughts here. I think that what Fedora needs to have is a separation of the current spins into Editions and Spins. Editions would be the the general-use spins, such as GNOME, KDE, LXDE, and XFCE. Spins would be a collection of applications meant for a single purpose, such as Astronomy, Education, and FEL. In order to explain this, I have to give what I think Fedora is. I offer that it is an experience. For developers, the experience of working with other dedicated individuals working together to provide a satisfying computing environment, the Fedora experience for users. I have learned much since I first started using Fedora with FC6, but my work with the KDE SIG for Fedora has been the largest chunk of that since I started a year ago. Working together to help users who need help, patch testing, getting upstream aware of bugs, and more. *That* is what Fedora should strive for. For users, Fedora should be a way of enjoying your time with a computer. Whether it be as you check your email, keep up with fads and memes on the Internet, package software, or develop software, Fedora should be there to make it enjoyable, or at least painfree. In order to be considered an Edition, the team would work to provide a complete Fedora experience. This includes documentation, a testing team, support, timely bugfixes, and possibly a critical path-like QA process. Spins would be derived from Editions and be geared towards a specific use-case (as they are today). This separation should help to fix the problems with the mockups of the download pages. The mockups look nice, but they are a step in the wrong direction. Some have argued that more users means more contributors, but I see this as na?ve. I think that instead there are a certain number of developers (whether through potential or already realized) and that attracting these people should be our goal. So I think the actual relationship commonly given is that more users are just more chances for getting a contributor at random. There are other ways to raise the chances such as piqing interest in a project enough to get the user involved. By hiding what Fedora has to offer, we lower the chances that what we showcase will inspire the user enough to become a developer. It may take a trip to OpenSuSE or *buntu to realize that, but by then they are not contributing to Fedora. We *should* make the transition from the dominant operating systems today as painless as possible. This does mean that we should offer defaults. But not at the expense of putting other alternatives behind a door. We should take cues from OpenSuSE which offers a variety of desktop environments without hiding the non-default ones. Pre-empting the argument that this choice overwhelms users, I argue that these users are the ones who would ask for help in installing Fedora anyways. Linux is spread to people through having friends and family who install Linux for others. These are the ones who make the decision about the desktop environment used and what's on the front page is probably going to do little to change their decision. Assuming that those who go to install Fedora who do not have such help, I think there are bigger barriers than the desktop environment choice. Do they know how to burn and ISO to a disc (on Windows, this is still something that I seem to always be scrounging for apps to do and am never satisfied; never tried with a Mac)? Do they know if they even have a CD/DVD burner? What if their boot order is wrong? How to partition a drive so that Windows is preserved just-in-case? How to get Windows back if Fedora is not for them (removing GRUB and getting back the Windows bootloader requires its rescue disc last I checked)? If this user can get through this, then they've probably researched what the desktops environments are while waiting for Windows to resize its partitions. Assuming they know that they exist. So, I think that instead of arguing over the current design, we focus on what is causing these problems and separate out the things that are not "just" spins and call them Editions. The complete Edition split will probably have to wait until F13, but the website design differences can be made for F12. Thoughts? - --Ben -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkqPI5YACgkQiPi+MRHG3qS0nACfTKW1XbDDRQvSD3Tn08tIhItd OrwAn1CdxDTmeKgQmQGN077HgWnHOaSU =Oa4B -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From a.badger at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 01:27:09 2009 From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 18:27:09 -0700 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <1250883073.8252.49.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> <4A8EB12A.9030604@math.unl.edu> <1250868576.3159.110.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A8EE64C.6090400@gmail.com> <1250883073.8252.49.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4A8F496D.9040306@gmail.com> I have a nice point by point reply to this but after I wrote it I realized that it's not going to do any good. You misunderstand what I'm saying in a ton of places. And I'm sure that I must be misunderstanding you in a ton of places as well (like the banner ads, your explanation that they all go to the spins.fp.o overview was something I didn't understand). So replying to everything we don't see eye to eye with is just going to make for longer and longer messages with more and more tangents. So let's try something different. I'm going to just quote where we agree and see if we can build anything up from there. And a disclaimer: I'm not a member of the KDE SIG. I can attempt to talk about what I think they're thinking and feeling but I only attend their meetings or read the #fedora-kde channel occasionally. If Rex speaks up with something different about how the KDE SIG feels, take him as authoritative, not me. On 08/21/2009 12:31 PM, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > On Fri, 2009-08-21 at 11:24 -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: >> I buy into the too much choice argument but the current mockup doesn't >> make clear that the user has any choice at all. If that's intentional, >> there's no room for compromise here. If that's not intentional, then it >> needs to be worked on as a priority as without that, none of the people >> who are not on the get-fedora page will have anyreason to make the spins >> page better. > > The choice on the page right now is, "Download Fedora" or "Download a > different Fedora." That is intentional. Does that make sense or is this > problematic to you? > Speaking for me and only me, this choice makes sense to me. I don't think that it's extensible to be perfectly fair in this situation (GNOME + KDE + XFCE + LXDE + [Sugar] by the criteria of different desktop) and I do think that "Download a different Fedora" can be made into a better way to get to the redesigned spins than what is presently available. > With that intention in mind, I totally admit maybe the "download a > different Fedora" choice isn't prominent enough. I'm thinking adding a > colorful/graphical banner to the sidebar to drive traffic to spins.fpo > might be a good solution. Excellent, doing something to enhance the "other choices link" is pretty much all I'm driving at. How much more prominent it needs to be, I think, is where the compromise with the other spins will come in. You also asked these questions which I think would be a good place to go next: * Why does the KDE SIG feel disenfranchised and demoralised by the mockups? Remember when I said how we perceive this problem that you might be looking at it as the poor design of the current site is driving away lots of new users and the current contributors will "get over" any flaws in the new design once the new design is up? You came back with a statement that if the result of your redesign was only that people felt that they got over their negative feelings for the new design, you wouldn't be doing this. You've put a lot of hard work and effort into the new site. Aesthetically it is worlds better than the old page. Functionally, the expectation is that it's a lot better as well. If you release it and the best that people can come up with is "well, I don't hate it as much as when you first proposed it", that would be a huge let-down. You've done too much great work for people not to appreciate it. That feeling is what the KDE SIG is feeling and for a similar reason. They've put in a lot of hard work to make sure that KDE on Fedora rocks. It's up-to-date compared to other distros. It's got people watching for bugs and applying them to packages before the packages even get to rawhide. It's grown by quite a few new contributors over the past year. All in all, they're feeling successful and they know that they're producing something that's great. Now they see the website mockup. Wow, it sure is beautiful! Such an improvement over what we had currently. I'm sure glad Fedora KDE is part of this.... Wait a minute. Why isn't Fedora KDE part of this?! At this point, people are feeling angry. They've put in a lot of work, making a stellar product. And what they think the mockup is showing is that their work isn't going to be easily findable anymore. There's a big button that says download Fedora and little text that says "More Download Options". What the hell, they think, don't people appreciate the work we've done? Then they go and attempt to provide input about what they find wrong with the new design but they find out that people aren't interested in listening to them. Sure they've done work for on segment of Fedora, but they aren't on the Board and they aren't the designer who made the mockups and the mockups *are* satisfying the explicitly stated requirements from the Board so what's the problem? Don't you think it looks better? Come on, take one for the team! It doesn't matter that you aren't featured on get-fedora, if someone manages to find spins.fp.o, they'll still be able to find kde there! At this point, they are getting tired of being angry. Instead, they feel undervalued, not respected, not appreciated, powerless to affect change, unlistened to. The word for those feelings is disenfranchised. They also feel that they can put all the time they want into making their piece of the project really shine but it doesn't make a difference in the end -- their needs aren't being met. The work that they've put into Fedora isn't going to be seen. The effort that they've spent making Fedora better isn't visible. This is where they start feeling demoralized. [Now continue reading to the next question] * What besides no link on get fedora to KDE is wrong with the page? * And implied by this: what's some constructive things we can do to make those things better? The answer to this question is problematic. Because the simplistic answer to the question, as you know from the feedback you've already gotten, is that only the lack of a link to the KDE spin is what's wrong. But that answer isn't the real story. If I go to the doctor, I'll tell him that I have a stomachache that won't go away. It's up to the doctor to figure out that I have the flu, cancer, or krone's disease. Similarly, "There's no link to the KDE spin" is a report of the symptom. I think the cause is what was written in the first answer -- The KDE SIG feels that their hard work is being undervalued and disregarded by not having a link on the page. They care deeply and passionately about Fedora but it appears that the people who have power over Fedora don't care about them and their work to make Fedora better. The cure is to figure out how to redesign the page to show that their work *is* valued. I think this means showing how people can download their product easily and intuitively if they want to. The implementation of this cure is the hard part where you each have to "spin your wheels" making new proposals that the other side can criticize. Right now, I think you are so far apart that the criticism is simply rejecting the other side's proposals. (Proposal: "Direct link to KDE spin but Default spin highlighted more prominently and given first position?" Answer: "No!" Counter Proposal: "One button to Default Spin and tiny link to spins page" Counter Answer: "No!") But if you keep moving your proposals closer, there will be a point where you will start building on each other's suggestions instead of rejecting them. This is a hard process, made harder because you're the doctor in this scenario. You are the designer. You have a grasp of the different UI elements that are available. So it's very likely to be your bag of tricks that will be used to direct the people who want choice to the spins page while letting the people who fear choice be comfortable picking the default solution. -Toshio -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From mairin at linuxgrrl.com Sat Aug 22 01:49:18 2009 From: mairin at linuxgrrl.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn?= Duffy) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 21:49:18 -0400 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <4A8F496D.9040306@gmail.com> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> <4A8EB12A.9030604@math.unl.edu> <1250868576.3159.110.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A8EE64C.6090400@gmail.com> <1250883073.8252.49.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A8F496D.9040306@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1250905758.9488.74.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2009-08-21 at 18:27 -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > That feeling is what the KDE SIG is feeling and for a similar reason. > They've put in a lot of hard work to make sure that KDE on Fedora rocks. > It's up-to-date compared to other distros. It's got people watching > for bugs and applying them to packages before the packages even get to > rawhide. It's grown by quite a few new contributors over the past year. > All in all, they're feeling successful and they know that they're > producing something that's great. If KDE SIG members feel that the exclusion of one link on one single web page is entirely representative of how the community, Board, and others perceive their status in Fedora - well, that is absolutely absurd, and they really need to take a step back and get a little perspective. One of the things I love about Fedora in KDE is that it is "Fedora KDE." It's not, "Kedora" or some other silly name, branded completely separately from the main project and left to fend for itself, not a 'true' Fedora. Is that not a symbol in itself of the Fedora Community's appreciation for the KDE SIG? For many (I feel completely objective & rational) reasons, KDE will not be the default desktop of Fedora anytime soon. If we put a KDE download link on the main 'Get Fedora' page, it will never be as prominent as the default download's link. There will always be confusion and explanation needed to instruct people on how to download KDE. This redesign I feel is a wonderful opportunity for spins like KDE to tailor their site to offer the download experience they want for their users. Rather than saying 'go to get.fedoraproject.org and click over there, and then click that' they can just say 'go to get.fedoraproject.org/kde.' Much simpler. They can provide a sidebar of resource links that point to any instructions they've written particular for KDE users and to upstream KDE docs if they want - that will not be possible any time in the forseeable future on the main "Get Fedora" page. Fedora KDE is NOT a distro. Fedora KDE is part of a larger distro, and that distro is called FEDORA. I'm not asking anyone to 'take one for the team.' I am asking that folks please consider this new base of users we are trying to attract. > Now they see the website mockup. Wow, it sure is beautiful! Such an > improvement over what we had currently. I'm sure glad Fedora KDE is > part of this.... Wait a minute. Why isn't Fedora KDE part of this?! How is Fedora KDE not a part of this design? Fedora KDE will have a site all its own that users can be directed to. > > At this point, people are feeling angry. They've put in a lot of work, > making a stellar product. And what they think the mockup is showing is > that their work isn't going to be easily findable anymore. There's a > big button that says download Fedora and little text that says "More > Download Options". What the hell, they think, don't people appreciate > the work we've done? > > Then they go and attempt to provide input about what they find wrong > with the new design but they find out that people aren't interested in > listening to them. Sure they've done work for on segment of Fedora, but > they aren't on the Board and they aren't the designer who made the > mockups and the mockups *are* satisfying the explicitly stated > requirements from the Board so what's the problem? Don't you think it > looks better? Come on, take one for the team! It doesn't matter that > you aren't featured on get-fedora, if someone manages to find > spins.fp.o, they'll still be able to find kde there! > > At this point, they are getting tired of being angry. Instead, they > feel undervalued, not respected, not appreciated, powerless to affect > change, unlistened to. The word for those feelings is disenfranchised. > They also feel that they can put all the time they want into making > their piece of the project really shine but it doesn't make a difference > in the end -- their needs aren't being met. The work that they've put > into Fedora isn't going to be seen. The effort that they've spent > making Fedora better isn't visible. This is where they start feeling > demoralized. [Now continue reading to the next question] > > * What besides no link on get fedora to KDE is wrong with the page? > * And implied by this: what's some constructive things we can do to > make those things better? > > The answer to this question is problematic. Because the simplistic > answer to the question, as you know from the feedback you've already > gotten, is that only the lack of a link to the KDE spin is what's wrong. > > But that answer isn't the real story. If I go to the doctor, I'll tell > him that I have a stomachache that won't go away. It's up to the doctor > to figure out that I have the flu, cancer, or krone's disease. > Similarly, "There's no link to the KDE spin" is a report of the symptom. > I think the cause is what was written in the first answer -- The KDE > SIG feels that their hard work is being undervalued and disregarded by > not having a link on the page. They care deeply and passionately about > Fedora but it appears that the people who have power over Fedora don't > care about them and their work to make Fedora better. > > The cure is to figure out how to redesign the page to show that their > work *is* valued. I think this means showing how people can download > their product easily and intuitively if they want to. > > The implementation of this cure is the hard part where you each have to > "spin your wheels" making new proposals that the other side can > criticize. Right now, I think you are so far apart that the criticism > is simply rejecting the other side's proposals. (Proposal: "Direct link > to KDE spin but Default spin highlighted more prominently and given > first position?" Answer: "No!" Counter Proposal: "One button to Default > Spin and tiny link to spins page" Counter Answer: "No!") But if you > keep moving your proposals closer, there will be a point where you will > start building on each other's suggestions instead of rejecting them. > This is a hard process, made harder because you're the doctor in this > scenario. You are the designer. You have a grasp of the different UI > elements that are available. So it's very likely to be your bag of > tricks that will be used to direct the people who want choice to the > spins page while letting the people who fear choice be comfortable > picking the default solution. > > > -Toshio > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board From mairin at linuxgrrl.com Sat Aug 22 02:33:52 2009 From: mairin at linuxgrrl.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn?= Duffy) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 22:33:52 -0400 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <1250905758.9488.74.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> <4A8EB12A.9030604@math.unl.edu> <1250868576.3159.110.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A8EE64C.6090400@gmail.com> <1250883073.8252.49.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A8F496D.9040306@gmail.com> <1250905758.9488.74.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1250908432.9488.164.camel@localhost.localdomain> I have no idea why but my mail client sent this when I was nowhere near finished, so I'll try again. On Fri, 2009-08-21 at 21:49 -0400, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > On Fri, 2009-08-21 at 18:27 -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > > That feeling is what the KDE SIG is feeling and for a similar reason. > > They've put in a lot of hard work to make sure that KDE on Fedora rocks. > > It's up-to-date compared to other distros. It's got people watching > > for bugs and applying them to packages before the packages even get to > > rawhide. It's grown by quite a few new contributors over the past year. > > All in all, they're feeling successful and they know that they're > > producing something that's great. > > If KDE SIG members feel that the exclusion of one link on one single web > page is entirely representative of how the community, Board, and others > perceive their status in Fedora - well, that is absolutely absurd, and > they really need to take a step back and get a little perspective. > > One of the things I love about Fedora in KDE is that it is "Fedora KDE." > It's not, "Kedora" or some other silly name, branded completely > separately from the main project and left to fend for itself, not a > 'true' Fedora. > > Is that not a symbol in itself of the Fedora Community's appreciation > for the KDE SIG? > > For many (I feel completely objective & rational) reasons, KDE will not > be the default desktop of Fedora anytime soon. If we put a KDE download > link on the main 'Get Fedora' page, it will never be as prominent as the > default download's link. There will always be confusion and explanation > needed to instruct people on how to download KDE. > > This redesign I feel is a wonderful opportunity for spins like KDE to > tailor their site to offer the download experience they want for their > users. Rather than saying 'go to get.fedoraproject.org and click over > there, and then click that' they can just say 'go to > get.fedoraproject.org/kde.' Much simpler. They can provide a sidebar of > resource links that point to any instructions they've written particular > for KDE users and to upstream KDE docs if they want - that will not be > possible any time in the forseeable future on the main "Get Fedora" > page. I am wondering if, when I update the old spins details design, if I use KDE as the example maybe the advantages of this redesign will be more readily apparent? > > > Fedora KDE is NOT a distro. Fedora KDE is part of a larger distro, and > that distro is called FEDORA. I'm not asking anyone to 'take one for the > team.' I am asking that folks please consider this new base of users we > are trying to attract. > > > Now they see the website mockup. Wow, it sure is beautiful! Such an > > improvement over what we had currently. I'm sure glad Fedora KDE is > > part of this.... Wait a minute. Why isn't Fedora KDE part of this?! > > How is Fedora KDE not a part of this design? Fedora KDE will have a site > all its own that users can be directed to. > > > > > At this point, people are feeling angry. They've put in a lot of work, > > making a stellar product. And what they think the mockup is showing is > > that their work isn't going to be easily findable anymore. There's a > > big button that says download Fedora and little text that says "More > > Download Options". What the hell, they think, don't people appreciate > > the work we've done? There is more than just little text that says 'More Download Options.' Please. Let's be fair. KDE is specifically mentioned in a much larger download options section on the main download page. > > > > Then they go and attempt to provide input about what they find wrong > > with the new design but they find out that people aren't interested in > > listening to them. Sure they've done work for on segment of Fedora, but > > they aren't on the Board and they aren't the designer who made the > > mockups and the mockups *are* satisfying the explicitly stated > > requirements from the Board so what's the problem? Don't you think it > > looks better? Come on, take one for the team! It doesn't matter that > > you aren't featured on get-fedora, if someone manages to find > > spins.fp.o, they'll still be able to find kde there! This assumes that there is any compelling reason to download the KDE spin for the users we're trying to target. What is it? I don't know what it is. I think that the people who would be interested in downloading Fedora KDE are people who know enough about Linux to know what a desktop environment is and to know what a three-letter acronym that 99.9% of the world has no clue what it means. These people should be smart enough to understand that more options labeled with the subtext 'x86_64, KDE, XFC, and more!' means more options and you click on more options to see the full gamut. What about a three-letter acronym in a sidebar on the Get Fedora page right now is attracting new Fedora KDE users? If the problem is that more options doesn't visually represent the depth of options that we offer, there are design solutions to that. If the problem is that the more options link is not prominent enough, there are design solutions to that. If more options is not prominent enough, let's work on design solutions to address that problem. > > At this point, they are getting tired of being angry. Instead, they > > feel undervalued, not respected, not appreciated, powerless to affect > > change, unlistened to. The word for those feelings is disenfranchised. > > They also feel that they can put all the time they want into making > > their piece of the project really shine but it doesn't make a difference > > in the end -- their needs aren't being met. The work that they've put > > into Fedora isn't going to be seen. The effort that they've spent > > making Fedora better isn't visible. This is where they start feeling > > demoralized. [Now continue reading to the next question] I do not understand all this ado about a single link. Do the KDE spin folks really feel that the entire representation of their position in the Fedora Community lies within a single link on a webpage? 'Disenfranchisement' and 'demoralizing' are very, very heavy words to be using here over a single link. > > > > * What besides no link on get fedora to KDE is wrong with the page? > > * And implied by this: what's some constructive things we can do to > > make those things better? > > > > The answer to this question is problematic. Because the simplistic > > answer to the question, as you know from the feedback you've already > > gotten, is that only the lack of a link to the KDE spin is what's wrong. KDE folks, please tell me HOW not having a link to the KDE spin on the main download page is going to hurt you. Please. Tell me the problems it will cause that I need to solve and I am sure they can be solved in other and potentially better ways. I cannot solve the problems it will cause you in my designs if I do not know what they are. I have tried to tell you in many different ways why the link has been removed - along with 20 other links - because we are targeting a new class of users. Tell me what you really want - what are the KDE spin's goals? - Do you want to grow users of Fedora KDE? What users are you looking to attract? How do they differ from the target users of the Desktop spin? How would you market to them? - Do you simply want KDE to be recognized as an important part of the Fedora project? There are many, many, many potential ways of doing that, that do not involve the 'Get Fedora' page at all. - Do you just want KDE to be easy to find for the experienced KDE users that know what they're doing? There must be modifications we could do to address this case. I'm trying to reverse-engineer your intentions. But I have NO CLUE what it is you're wanting. My blog has been flooded with complaints that there is no KDE link, and I've even been subject to rather harsh and unfair berating in IRC over this. Let's fix this by talking about your goals and your concerns about the problems this change is going to cause rather than demanding via multiple forms of communication that it should be added back without rationale. No matter how many times I repeat it I do not think it is going to change - adding a KDE link to that page not only completely goes against the requirement of having one main default download on the page, but it really also goes against my professional opinion as a designer as what is best for making a page that will attract the types of users that the Board has told me they would like to make a try at. So please tell me what problems removing that link is going to cause you, and please tell me what your goals as a project are. I will do my very best to come up with something that you can at least be amenable to (and I am hoping you would rather be delighted with it), I have absolutely nothing against you and anytime I've needed help with something KDE, KDE SIG members have been extremely responsive and helpful. So, please don't take this or make this personal. Help me and you have a right to complain if you don't like the results. > > But that answer isn't the real story. If I go to the doctor, I'll tell > > him that I have a stomachache that won't go away. It's up to the doctor > > to figure out that I have the flu, cancer, or krone's disease. > > Similarly, "There's no link to the KDE spin" is a report of the symptom. > > I think the cause is what was written in the first answer -- The KDE > > SIG feels that their hard work is being undervalued and disregarded by > > not having a link on the page. They care deeply and passionately about > > Fedora but it appears that the people who have power over Fedora don't > > care about them and their work to make Fedora better. > > > > The cure is to figure out how to redesign the page to show that their > > work *is* valued. I think this means showing how people can download > > their product easily and intuitively if they want to. If the goal is to 'show KDE as a prominent and valued member of the Fedora community', again, there are far better ways of doing that than cluttering up the main download page. For real. Fedora KDE is not just an ISO file. Fedora KDE is a SIG, Fedora KDE is a community, Fedora KDE is a group of really cool (well at least not when they're berating me in IRC ;-) ) and smart people who put out one of the best versions of KDE for a distro out there. So why do you sell all of Fedora KDE short by considering it just to be an ISO file? > > The implementation of this cure is the hard part where you each have to > > "spin your wheels" making new proposals that the other side can > > criticize. Right now, I think you are so far apart that the criticism > > is simply rejecting the other side's proposals. (Proposal: "Direct link > > to KDE spin but Default spin highlighted more prominently and given > > first position?" Answer: "No!" Please, please be fair to me. The answer has not just been no. The answer has been, "We are trying to attract users who are new to Fedora and new to open source, and we do not want to overwhelm them. I've been given the requirement of having a single download link on the main page. So I cannot do this because it conflicts with other goals of the redesign project. Do you have any alternative suggestions?" I have played that script many times with no answer to my question. Please show me where I've told someone who gave me feedback "NO" without providing any rationale as to why, and I'll try to make it right. > Counter Proposal: "One button to Default > > Spin and tiny link to spins page" Counter Answer: "No!") The current design does one better than this and has one button to the default spin, and multiple links to the spins page with explanations of what can be found there, including a specific callout to the KDE spin. > But if you > > keep moving your proposals closer, there will be a point where you will > > start building on each other's suggestions instead of rejecting them. > > This is a hard process, made harder because you're the doctor in this > > scenario. You are the designer. You have a grasp of the different UI > > elements that are available. So it's very likely to be your bag of > > tricks that will be used to direct the people who want choice to the > > spins page while letting the people who fear choice be comfortable > > picking the default solution. This process you describe is what we call 'backseat driving' or 'too many cooks in the kitchen.' Generally, the more cooks in the kitchen, the more mediocre the results. I'm a lot more open than most designers. In fact I've been called fanatically so. I find it curious I'm now being criticized for not being open enough. Please recognize, though, that I am more than just a pixel pusher, and don't insist on micromanaging me to the point I cannot even accomplish the most basic of tasks without approval from 3 different mailing lists. ~m From mairin at linuxgrrl.com Sat Aug 22 02:34:02 2009 From: mairin at linuxgrrl.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn?= Duffy) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 22:34:02 -0400 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <200908212107.14387.MathStuf@gmail.com> References: <200908212107.14387.MathStuf@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1250908442.9488.165.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2009-08-21 at 21:07 -0400, Ben Boeckel wrote: > We *should* make the transition from the dominant operating > systems today as painless as possible. This does mean that we > should offer defaults. But not at the expense of putting other > alternatives behind a door. I disagree that having a default option and an 'others' option is putting the non-default options behind a door. Please explain why you feel this is the case. The loudest critiques of the new design are hailing open suse as the way to go: http://software.opensuse.org/ Looking at this screen, I see no mention of GNOME or KDE? How is this screen giving me a choice of default desktops? Can someone fill me in as to what is going on here? Has the new design not debuted yet, or something? Either way, requiring people to fill out a form to download something is full of FAIL. Let me show you what a OpenSuSE's current download page looks like for us mere mortals: 1) Select Type of Computer (o) weio3u4t983gh4wt5gh ( ) dslkghrelkghndkfngkdsng ( ) skdjfkdsgfkdsglkneg 2) Choose an Installation Medium (o) DVD ( ) aaaaahftri4ehgtlo9h4egkhgtr ( ) afhr4f34ekgtrh (Experienced Users Only) 3) Choose a Download Method (o) 3hgwiehigu4krgtj ( ) iugfel4whfihy4wifh 4) Start Download here _Installation DVD_ _eargegr_ _aergeagr_ _argearg_ _Extra Languages _ _iehglekjlgjesrlgj_ That download button is awful small. Doesn't even say download. I had to scan the page several times to figure out how it worked. > Pre-empting the argument that this choice overwhelms users, I > argue that these users are the ones who would ask for help in > installing Fedora anyways. My younger brother had absolutely no problem installing Fedora on his own once given a direct link to the ISO that would work for him. The installation is fairly straightforward unless you run into a bug (which is common enough but even folks who can interpret the o3whjgrofheighlreg usually need help in those situations as well.) > In order to be considered an Edition, the team would work to > provide a complete Fedora experience. This includes > documentation, a testing team, support, timely bugfixes, and > possibly a critical path-like QA process. Spins would be derived > from Editions and be geared towards a specific use-case (as they > are today). Problem is only the Desktop spin meets these requirements right now AFAIK. All our docs are written for GNOME and as far as I know KDE has no testing team (I could be wrong on the latter.) Your point about there being a difference between desktop environment focused spins and actual specialized use case spins is a very astute one. The specialized spins like Art Studio, Security Lab, and Electronic Lab have clear purposes and use cases and users will clearly know what they are meant for. XFCE and KDE spins really offer no compelling reason to download them other than 'it's different.' It might be worth separating out the spins on the spins site as being either use-case oriented or desktop-environment oriented, but I do not think we have enough spins to justify this classification. I can give it a shot in the spins mockup though. > This separation should help to fix the problems with the mockups > of the download pages. > I'm sorry, but it really does appear the problems run quite a bit deeper than that. You mock me up a page that incorporates this editions idea, and in the process I think you'll see what I mean. If you want to push editions as the solution, then I think what you're really going to have to do is have an entirely separate website for each edition. That's probably a better way to go. But I really don't want to balkanize our spins... I think it's important they have Fedora branding. ~m From mmcgrath at redhat.com Sat Aug 22 02:40:33 2009 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 21:40:33 -0500 (CDT) Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <1250908432.9488.164.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> <4A8EB12A.9030604@math.unl.edu> <1250868576.3159.110.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A8EE64C.6090400@gmail.com> <1250883073.8252.49.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A8F496D.9040306@gmail.com> <1250905758.9488.74.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1250908432.9488.164.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Aug 2009, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > I have no idea why but my mail client sent this when I was nowhere near > finished, so I'll try again. > Perhaps you should give kmail a try -Mike From mmcgrath at redhat.com Sat Aug 22 02:42:25 2009 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 21:42:25 -0500 (CDT) Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <1250908442.9488.165.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <200908212107.14387.MathStuf@gmail.com> <1250908442.9488.165.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Aug 2009, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > On Fri, 2009-08-21 at 21:07 -0400, Ben Boeckel wrote: > > We *should* make the transition from the dominant operating > > systems today as painless as possible. This does mean that we > > should offer defaults. But not at the expense of putting other > > alternatives behind a door. > > I disagree that having a default option and an 'others' option is > putting the non-default options behind a door. Please explain why you > feel this is the case. > > The loudest critiques of the new design are hailing open suse as the way > to go: > > http://software.opensuse.org/ > > Looking at this screen, I see no mention of GNOME or KDE? How is this > screen giving me a choice of default desktops? Can someone fill me in as > to what is going on here? Has the new design not debuted yet, or > something? > I believe it's been decided on but won't be implemented until their next release. -Mike From smooge at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 03:36:43 2009 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 21:36:43 -0600 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <1250883841.9488.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> <4A8EB12A.9030604@math.unl.edu> <1250868576.3159.110.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A8EE64C.6090400@gmail.com> <4A8EF31D.3070707@gmail.com> <1250883841.9488.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <80d7e4090908212036q48830966v9918ac020679222f@mail.gmail.com> 2009/8/21 M?ir?n Duffy : > On Fri, 2009-08-21 at 12:18 -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: >> Simplifying the get-fedora page is aimed at growing the userbase in >> total. ?But the argument is being made that the new design will hurt >> the ability of some areas of the project to retain and grow the >> contributor base. > > The spins aren't the only other areas of the project. > >> ? I think that beefing up the spins page is aimed at >> rectifying that but it doesn't help if people who are looking to >> download fedora aren't being enticed to click to the spins page. > > Who wants to click on the spins page? > > Who do we want to click on the spin page? I think those are good questions to look at. What we are looking at is for people who want to experiment and play around with things.. be a bit adventurous. For most new people what they want is a dvd or cdrom that will get them stuff to play with, install once, and then probably throw away :(. To be honest, desktops are the WRONG religious argument to be having. It distracts from the key points of getting people to not throw away/uninstall the system but to learn how to use it and what they get from it. The amount of energy we are spending on this argument should be put on the HARD problem: How do you let the person make an informed decision on whether they want to keep using it or not. -- Stephen J Smoogen. Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp. Or what's a heaven for? -- Robert Browning From mathstuf at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 04:15:37 2009 From: mathstuf at gmail.com (Ben Boeckel) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 00:15:37 -0400 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? Message-ID: <200908220015.38138.MathStuf@gmail.com> Again something is weird with f-a-b and GMane/KNode. Errors about not being able to write to news.gmane.org. -------------- next part -------------- Followup-To: gmane.linux.redhat.fedora.advisory-board Lines: 184 From: Ben Boeckel Subject: Re: website mockups, what is fedora? To: fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com Reply-To: MathStuf at gmail.com Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 00:13:12 -0400 References: <200908212107.14387.MathStuf at gmail.com> <1250908442.9488.165.camel at localhost.localdomain> User-Agent: KNode/4.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8Bit Newsgroups: gmane.linux.redhat.fedora.advisory-board -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > On Fri, 2009-08-21 at 21:07 -0400, Ben Boeckel wrote: >> We *should* make the transition from the dominant operating >> systems today as painless as possible. This does mean that we >> should offer defaults. But not at the expense of putting other >> alternatives behind a door. > > I disagree that having a default option and an 'others' option is > putting the non-default options behind a door. Please explain why you > feel this is the case. Maybe "door" is strong. One click is the difference between the GNOME edition page and the spins just as google is one back to their search for "linux download". Probably still not saying what I mean, but since they are all general purpose environments, they should be given similar treatment. (See below for a way that, I think, may work). > The loudest critiques of the new design are hailing open suse as the way > to go: > > http://software.opensuse.org/ > > Looking at this screen, I see no mention of GNOME or KDE? How is this > screen giving me a choice of default desktops? Can someone fill me in as > to what is going on here? Has the new design not debuted yet, or > something? They have a DVD as default, they all fit there, so the place to look there is in their Anaconda for how they do the differentiation. With the live CDs, the website must where that choice is made. > Either way, requiring people to fill out a form to download something is > full of FAIL. I agree. > That download button is awful small. Doesn't even say download. I had to > scan the page several times to figure out how it worked. Yes, the current page is dull. Especially in 8pt fonts ;) . >> Pre-empting the argument that this choice overwhelms users, I >> argue that these users are the ones who would ask for help in >> installing Fedora anyways. > > My younger brother had absolutely no problem installing Fedora on his > own once given a direct link to the ISO that would work for him. The > installation is fairly straightforward unless you run into a bug (which > is common enough but even folks who can interpret the o3whjgrofheighlreg > usually need help in those situations as well.) I've had to talk people through drag and drop. If I gave them a link to a page with an ISO and *complete* instructions, they'd still call me for help. This is how I feel most technophobic people see computers and what the new download page is attempting to target. If we continue going down this road of "users * $DEV_PERCENTAGE == developers", we will again be trying to appease everyone which I believe you stated in the thread as unfeasible. We have to assume some baseline of intelligence in those we expect to become developers. Those who are too lazy to look up what a desktop environment is and comparisons between those on a list are not likely to become developers. Windows and OS X get along fine with "here is what we made, hope you like it" because there *are no choices* besides what's crippled in your downgraded version. Linux is different. If a potential developer uses GNOME and doesn't like it, is it obvious that there are alternatives? KDE and XFCE are thrown in with Astronomy and Education. I can see people thinking it was just some niche of study they didn't know anything about. I think we should be able to have some way of putting the DEs on one page and yet still be able to get the attention of new users to get the default. As a thought, Linux does have a reputation of being for techies, so this is something that new users probably expect anyways. Maybe a "New to Linux? Click here (GNOME Edition) to see what Fedora is all about. Want to explore Fedora more in depth? Look what we have to offer below: ". Those interested in one DE from an article or something can recognize the screenshots and get what they came to look for. Those looking for Fedora to try get the GNOME edition. Those looking for what fits them best are nit picky anyways and would be more willing to do some research. >> In order to be considered an Edition, the team would work to >> provide a complete Fedora experience. This includes >> documentation, a testing team, support, timely bugfixes, and >> possibly a critical path-like QA process. Spins would be derived >> from Editions and be geared towards a specific use-case (as they >> are today). > > Problem is only the Desktop spin meets these requirements right now > AFAIK. All our docs are written for GNOME and as far as I know KDE has > no testing team (I could be wrong on the latter.) We're trying to get something formal set up, but it is still quite informal yet. > Your point about there being a difference between desktop environment > focused spins and actual specialized use case spins is a very astute > one. The specialized spins like Art Studio, Security Lab, and Electronic > Lab have clear purposes and use cases and users will clearly know what > they are meant for. XFCE and KDE spins really offer no compelling reason > to download them other than 'it's different.' In many ways, as the multitude of flame wars found all over the Internet can attest to. > It might be worth > separating out the spins on the spins site as being either use-case > oriented or desktop-environment oriented, but I do not think we have > enough spins to justify this classification. I can give it a shot in the > spins mockup though. That would be good :) . I still think not at least giving them equal footing with GNOME is wrong, but it's a start. >> This separation should help to fix the problems with the mockups >> of the download pages. >> > I'm sorry, but it really does appear the problems run quite a bit deeper > than that. You mock me up a page that incorporates this editions idea, > and in the process I think you'll see what I mean. > > If you want to push editions as the solution, then I think what you're > really going to have to do is have an entirely separate website for each > edition. That's probably a better way to go. Possibly, but my designs skills submit to function over form which would make any website I touch awfully spartan and raw. Not to mention having pointy corners everywhere. > But I really don't want to > balkanize our spins... I think it's important they have Fedora branding. I don't remember saying that they weren't Fedora. The difference between editions and spins would likely be similar to the difference between the GNOME edition and the spins today. > ~m - --Ben -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkqPcDsACgkQiPi+MRHG3qSy6QCfeF6OgeqrS6swGZn6Y+FqLV+u 1UUAoL+rdWHyQJq/Sml3fNwEr5Tuj3Hk =uJhQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From mairin at linuxgrrl.com Sat Aug 22 04:21:26 2009 From: mairin at linuxgrrl.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn?= Duffy) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 00:21:26 -0400 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <200908220015.38138.MathStuf@gmail.com> References: <200908220015.38138.MathStuf@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1250914886.9488.171.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2009-08-22 at 00:15 -0400, Ben Boeckel wrote: > > I've had to talk people through drag and drop. If I gave them a > link to a page with an ISO and *complete* instructions, they'd > still call me for help. This is how I feel most technophobic > people see computers and what the new download page is > attempting to target. The requirements make it quite clear we are not targeting absolute n00bs. We're targeting folks who know how to drive a machine but simply don't have Linux or open source experience. The page is not trying to target Grandma. Believe me, it would look a LOT different if it was. > I think we should be able to have some way of putting the DEs on > one page and yet still be able to get the attention of new users > to get the default. > As I challenged you to do earlier, show me the mockup. I've tried to make it and pkilled inkscape in utter disgust. Lack of design skills is no excuse - make squares on a canvas and label each with where you'd have these things go. A wireframe is fine. > That would be good :) . I still think not at least giving them > equal footing with GNOME is wrong, but it's a start. Did you not look at the spins mockup? The desktop spin is placed on there no more prominently than any other spin. ~m From mathstuf at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 06:01:27 2009 From: mathstuf at gmail.com (Ben Boeckel) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 02:01:27 -0400 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? Message-ID: <200908220201.43424.MathStuf@gmail.com> *sigh* Using KMail now with mail delivery on and now I forget to check the receiver. On Saturday 22 August 2009 00:21:26 you wrote: > On Sat, 2009-08-22 at 00:15 -0400, Ben Boeckel wrote: > > > > I've had to talk people through drag and drop. If I gave them a > > link to a page with an ISO and *complete* instructions, they'd > > still call me for help. This is how I feel most technophobic > > people see computers and what the new download page is > > attempting to target. > > The requirements make it quite clear we are not targeting absolute > n00bs. We're targeting folks who know how to drive a machine but simply > don't have Linux or open source experience. > > The page is not trying to target Grandma. Believe me, it would look a > LOT different if it was. With my mockup (I have yet to get an official opinion from the KDE SIG due to the time of day), the new user should be attracted to the big button at the top while still keeping the fact that Fedora has more to offer up front and center. > > I think we should be able to have some way of putting the DEs on > > one page and yet still be able to get the attention of new users > > to get the default. > > > > As I challenged you to do earlier, show me the mockup. I've tried to > make it and pkilled inkscape in utter disgust. Lack of design skills is > no excuse - make squares on a canvas and label each with where you'd > have these things go. A wireframe is fine. Well, I ended up just using a GUI designer since neither raster nor vector editor has treated me well (the SVG editing I've done was with KWrite/Gwenview). Screenshot attached. > > That would be good :) . I still think not at least giving them > > equal footing with GNOME is wrong, but it's a start. > > Did you not look at the spins mockup? The desktop spin is placed on > there no more prominently than any other spin. On the spins page. Not on the main download page. One foot is equal, but the other is on a pedestal. > > ~m --Ben -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: mockup.png Type: image/png Size: 36907 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From mairin at linuxgrrl.com Sat Aug 22 06:04:19 2009 From: mairin at linuxgrrl.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn?= Duffy) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 02:04:19 -0400 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <200908220201.43424.MathStuf@gmail.com> References: <200908220201.43424.MathStuf@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1250921059.9488.187.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2009-08-22 at 02:01 -0400, Ben Boeckel wrote: > *sigh* Using KMail now with mail delivery on and now I forget to check the receiver. > okay ill resend my reply Thanks for giving it a try. Here are the problems I see with the mockup: - Are you NEW? Go over *there*. This isn't for you. (not very welcoming) - Okay, now that we got rid of the n00bs in the room. Let me tell you information you likely already know. Here's what an Edition is... blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah - Are you going to have a single download link above the fold? --- page fold --- Actual download links down here - What happens if you have more than 4 desktop environments? How does the design handle that? - The DVD section might as well not be there. It's down in Antarctica. And how do you explain what the DVD has in it in relation to the spins? - What if I want KDE x86_64? Where do I go? These are technical people, they need access to all the arches. - What if (quite likely) all of the desktop environment logos clash with each other and they don't all look professional? - What is the sidebar going to have in it? The documentation we have in the sidebar in the mockups is going to be useless because it is GNOME-only. - What if I want the Electronics spin? What if I want the Art studio spin? There's no mention of the possibility of these here. - Fedora is not a menagerie of desktop environments. This makes it seem as if it is. Gotta collect them all. Here is pikachu, here is.. uh, toad-guy, here is giraffe guy... - If you're catering to people who know what they're doing, you better offer a bittorrent link per spin. And an md5 sum. And a link to the gpg keys to verify the packages. You've basically turned the design inside out. The designs I did make it very easy and welcoming for newbies (where newbies != grandma), and they require just one additional click from people who are already in the community and feel welcome. This design basically makes it clear that new people are not very welcome - it provides a lot of choices right away, and tells the newbies to go elsewhere, forcing them through 3 clicks and 3 page loads just to get Fedora. They haven't bought in yet. Current community members have. I'm also curious how this design would interact with the big 'download' button on the front page that has been proposed. ~m From mairin at linuxgrrl.com Sat Aug 22 06:21:24 2009 From: mairin at linuxgrrl.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn?= Duffy) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 02:21:24 -0400 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <1250893245.9488.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <1250893245.9488.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1250922084.9488.192.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2009-08-21 at 18:20 -0400, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > > - I'm going to use some of Toshio's suggestions for the get-fedora page > (#2) and play around with the balance between the DOWNLOAD NOW!!!!111 > option and the 'other options' option. I'll probably make a few > iterations here and solicit your input. Here's what a bunch of us came up with in #fedora-admin tonight. Let me know if it's any better: http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfpo-16.png BTW here is the sitemap again to put this design in context: http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/wwwfpo_diagram.png The mockup is for screen #2, 'get fedora' ~m From smooge at gmail.com Sat Aug 22 20:36:27 2009 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 14:36:27 -0600 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <1250921059.9488.187.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <200908220201.43424.MathStuf@gmail.com> <1250921059.9488.187.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <80d7e4090908221336m56a05087k9b4aacd838434ed9@mail.gmail.com> 2009/8/22 M?ir?n Duffy : > On Sat, 2009-08-22 at 02:01 -0400, Ben Boeckel wrote: >> *sigh* Using KMail now with mail delivery on and now I forget to check the receiver. >> > okay ill resend my reply > > Thanks for giving it a try. Here are the problems I see with the mockup: Ok I think I see where the 'fundamental breakdown' is coming in on the mockups. The KDE 'spirit' has always seemed to be about letting people know everything possible, and letting a person make their own decisions. In fact if one thing that gets more flame wars is anyone 'dumbing' down an interface by hiding choice. It goes with the assumption that man is innately curious and will want to play with and know he can play with anything. This shows up in the mockups with people giving tons of choices and letting innate curiosity fill in questions. The other view is that people have shutdown their natural curiousity with the 'caution of adulthood'. They become confused and distracted and are psychologically unable to make 'good' decisions on things they know little about. So by limiting down choice you are able to get more acceptance from people so that they feel comfortable using the 'unknown' item. The issue I think between the two is what population is larger of the two. From the studies I have seen, it seems that the second population (easily confused/intimidated/scared/cautious/whatever you wish to put here) is the larger part of the population. I am not talking about complete new people here. People who have used computers all their lives will still show up as just wanting the cautious 1 click method because they have too many other concerns on their minds. [I have long rants from former co-workers who find the Gnome desktop too complicated which after questioning them find out that it didn't allow them to get their job done in 1-2 clicks...] The design challenge is that these people are not the only population around. People who are 'adventurous', wanting to feel more in control by seeing all the choices possible; the ones who throw out firefox after they find that most of the things they could have played with are hidden behind about:configs; they get turned off by being what they see as being herded. So the issue is getting them off of the easy pages as quickly as possible to the 'Expert' pages. I would say that for some of them what you want is not just send them to the Spins/Technology Preview pages but send them to the Spin Maker as quickly as possible. The challenge for the adventurous 'all-choice' population is to realize that they aren't the lion share of people. -- Stephen J Smoogen. Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp. Or what's a heaven for? -- Robert Browning From simon at zikula.org Sun Aug 23 02:24:56 2009 From: simon at zikula.org (Simon Birtwistle) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 03:24:56 +0100 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <80d7e4090908221336m56a05087k9b4aacd838434ed9@mail.gmail.com> References: <200908220201.43424.MathStuf@gmail.com> <1250921059.9488.187.camel@localhost.localdomain> <80d7e4090908221336m56a05087k9b4aacd838434ed9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <008201ca2398$e9486f40$bbd94dc0$@org> > The challenge for the adventurous 'all-choice' population is to > realize that they aren't the lion share of people. This is similar to my argument on #fedora-admin last night. The following is all 'in my experience' and is not to be taken as fact, however. People who are new to linux (and Fedora) will 99% of the time download the default, however big you make the other options. If you give them 4 equal choices, they will be confused because they don't have the prerequisite knowledge to make an informed choice (and no, one paragraph isn't enough, and no, a bunch of pages with 'Gnome Explained' isn't enough either, because they won't read it). Confusion is bad in new users. People who are not new to linux (or even Fedora) are intelligent/curious enough about the alternatives to seek out choice. They don't need it presented to them in 4 equal boxes on the download page. I admit, the other choices option could be larger or in a button form to be slightly more obvious, but I honestly think that to attract sort of users who will end up downloading one of the alternative operating systems you don't need a complicated download page stuffed full of alternatives. While Fedora has a default operating system the users who are new to Linux will download that default. The more experienced users will seek out alternatives and/or experiment if they aren't happy with the default. If they are seeking out alternatives, the current designs look fine to me - because if you're looking for other options it's obvious enough where they are. In summary: I think making the download page more complex to support 'fairness' is a mistaken thing to do. That complexity will make life more difficult for the large majority that just want to download the defaults and try it. My 2cents (while I'm in NYC anyway). Simon From mathstuf at gmail.com Sun Aug 23 14:27:53 2009 From: mathstuf at gmail.com (Ben Boeckel) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 10:27:53 -0400 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? Message-ID: <200908231027.58941.MathStuf@gmail.com> On Saturday 22 August 2009 16:36:27 you wrote: > 2009/8/22 M?ir?n Duffy : > > On Sat, 2009-08-22 at 02:01 -0400, Ben Boeckel wrote: > >> *sigh* Using KMail now with mail delivery on and now I forget to check the receiver. > >> > > okay ill resend my reply > > > > Thanks for giving it a try. Here are the problems I see with the mockup: > > > Ok I think I see where the 'fundamental breakdown' is coming in on the > mockups. The KDE 'spirit' has always seemed to be about letting people > know everything possible, and letting a person make their own > decisions. In fact if one thing that gets more flame wars is anyone > 'dumbing' down an interface by hiding choice. It goes with the > assumption that man is innately curious and will want to play with and > know he can play with anything. This shows up in the mockups with > people giving tons of choices and letting innate curiosity fill in > questions. > > The other view is that people have shutdown their natural curiousity > with the 'caution of adulthood'. They become confused and distracted > and are psychologically unable to make 'good' decisions on things they > know little about. So by limiting down choice you are able to get more > acceptance from people so that they feel comfortable using the > 'unknown' item. > > The issue I think between the two is what population is larger of the > two. From the studies I have seen, it seems that the second population > (easily confused/intimidated/scared/cautious/whatever you wish to put > here) is the larger part of the population. I am not talking about > complete new people here. People who have used computers all their > lives will still show up as just wanting the cautious 1 click method > because they have too many other concerns on their minds. [I have long > rants from former co-workers who find the Gnome desktop too > complicated which after questioning them find out that it didn't allow > them to get their job done in 1-2 clicks...] > > The design challenge is that these people are not the only population > around. People who are 'adventurous', wanting to feel more in control > by seeing all the choices possible; the ones who throw out firefox > after they find that most of the things they could have played with > are hidden behind about:configs; they get turned off by being what > they see as being herded. So the issue is getting them off of the easy > pages as quickly as possible to the 'Expert' pages. I would say that > for some of them what you want is not just send them to the > Spins/Technology Preview pages but send them to the Spin Maker as > quickly as possible. > > The challenge for the adventurous 'all-choice' population is to > realize that they aren't the lion share of people. > Good point. Kevin said on IRC earlier today that we may be looking at it from different viewpoints as well. The current mockups assume new-to-Linux while in the KDE SIG we are looking from a new-to-Fedora-but-familiar-with-Linux viewpoint. Maybe this is a part of the root of the problem behind how we see these mockups? --Ben -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From mathstuf at gmail.com Sun Aug 23 14:38:26 2009 From: mathstuf at gmail.com (Ben Boeckel) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 10:38:26 -0400 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <1250921059.9488.187.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <200908220201.43424.MathStuf@gmail.com> <1250921059.9488.187.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200908231038.32226.MathStuf@gmail.com> On Saturday 22 August 2009 02:04:19 M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > On Sat, 2009-08-22 at 02:01 -0400, Ben Boeckel wrote: > > *sigh* Using KMail now with mail delivery on and now I forget to check the receiver. > > > okay ill resend my reply > > Thanks for giving it a try. Here are the problems I see with the mockup: > > - Are you NEW? Go over *there*. This isn't for you. (not very > welcoming) I think people understand that there are people who know better than them at something. Do math geniuses get pushed off to the side just because not everyone knows as much as them? > - Okay, now that we got rid of the n00bs in the room. Let me tell you > information you likely already know. Here's what an Edition is... blah > blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah > > - Are you going to have a single download link above the fold? > > --- page fold --- > > Actual download links down here > > - What happens if you have more than 4 desktop environments? How does > the design handle that? They can be put into a vertical layout instead of a grid. This can be decided at each release since the Editions available for that release are unlikely to change over the life of that release. > - The DVD section might as well not be there. It's down in Antarctica. > And how do you explain what the DVD has in it in relation to the spins? There'd be text there, not just a download link. > - What if I want KDE x86_64? Where do I go? These are technical people, > they need access to all the arches. Put two buttons next to each other with a link to each. > - What if (quite likely) all of the desktop environment logos clash with > each other and they don't all look professional? They'd clash in the spins page as well. I was thinking of the images used there, not the actual project logos. It was late, vocabulary was failing. > - What is the sidebar going to have in it? The documentation we have in > the sidebar in the mockups is going to be useless because it is > GNOME-only. The install for all of them is Anaconda, so there's no difference there. They both have links on the desktop (IIRC, I haven't run the KDE Live myself in a while). The biggest difference from the install is having to "customize packages" to get KDE (and to disable GNOME, which is a PITA). > - What if I want the Electronics spin? What if I want the Art studio > spin? There's no mention of the possibility of these here. Sidebar? Panda box? There would be text for it. > - Fedora is not a menagerie of desktop environments. This makes it seem > as if it is. Gotta collect them all. Here is pikachu, here is.. uh, > toad-guy, here is giraffe guy... Do people see all the versions of Windows as "collectable"? This argument is silly. Fedora is not just GNOME either. I see no reason to be deceptive. > - If you're catering to people who know what they're doing, you better > offer a bittorrent link per spin. And an md5 sum. And a link to the gpg > keys to verify the packages. Currently there's a portal page with the "Of your download does not start in 5 seconds, click ." This information can go there. > You've basically turned the design inside out. The designs I did make it > very easy and welcoming for newbies (where newbies != grandma), and they > require just one additional click from people who are already in the > community and feel welcome. It makes those looking for not-Desktop (whatever that may be, not specified anywhere, really needs a GNOME label on it, s/Desktop/GNOME/ would be best IMO) feel alienated. The "one click" is small and hard to find. > This design basically makes it clear that new people are not very > welcome - it provides a lot of choices right away, and tells the newbies > to go elsewhere, forcing them through 3 clicks and 3 page loads just to > get Fedora. They haven't bought in yet. Current community members have. I think people can expect a "here's what we're about, let us walk you through" to something like Linux. It's not like buying a new handsoap or something. > I'm also curious how this design would interact with the big 'download' > button on the front page that has been proposed. Goes to this page if OS == Linux and where the big download goes for != Linux? If could go to this page no matter what. There are websites that have a button on the frontpage that doesn't link straight to a file. I can find some if you want, but I've hit them enough that I think you've probably seen them too. > ~m -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From mathstuf at gmail.com Sun Aug 23 14:51:39 2009 From: mathstuf at gmail.com (Ben Boeckel) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 10:51:39 -0400 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <008201ca2398$e9486f40$bbd94dc0$@org> References: <200908220201.43424.MathStuf@gmail.com> <80d7e4090908221336m56a05087k9b4aacd838434ed9@mail.gmail.com> <008201ca2398$e9486f40$bbd94dc0$@org> Message-ID: <200908231051.47811.MathStuf@gmail.com> On Saturday 22 August 2009 22:24:56 Simon Birtwistle wrote: > > The challenge for the adventurous 'all-choice' population is to > > realize that they aren't the lion share of people. > > This is similar to my argument on #fedora-admin last night. The following > is all 'in my experience' and is not to be taken as fact, however. > > People who are new to linux (and Fedora) will 99% of the time download the > default, however big you make the other options. Number toss. KDE has 30% of torrent downloads and since HTTP downloads have no overall metrics, this is what we have. Deviating new from old users is also not done at all. > If you give them 4 equal > choices, they will be confused because they don't have the prerequisite > knowledge to make an informed choice (and no, one paragraph isn't enough, > and no, a bunch of pages with 'Gnome Explained' isn't enough either, because > they won't read it). Confusion is bad in new users. > > People who are not new to linux (or even Fedora) are intelligent/curious > enough about the alternatives to seek out choice. They don't need it > presented to them in 4 equal boxes on the download page. I admit, the other > choices option could be larger or in a button form to be slightly more > obvious, but I honestly think that to attract sort of users who will end up > downloading one of the alternative operating systems you don't need a > complicated download page stuffed full of alternatives. > > While Fedora has a default operating system the users who are new to Linux > will download that default. Fedora has a default *desktop environment*; KDE, XFCE, and LXDE on Fedora is still Fedora. They will, I still have that in what I sketched. > The more experienced users will seek out > alternatives and/or experiment if they aren't happy with the default. Alternative edition or alternative distro? > If > they are seeking out alternatives, the current designs look fine to me - > because if you're looking for other options it's obvious enough where they > are. Is it obvious *what* they are? Desktop can mean any of GNOME, KDE, etc. and it's "opposite" is Server. The "opposite" of GNOME is KDE, LXDE, or XFCE. > In summary: I think making the download page more complex to support > 'fairness' is a mistaken thing to do. That complexity will make life more > difficult for the large majority that just want to download the defaults and > try it. That's why I left a big button at the top. Those who are new don't need to deal with "what's a DE?". They never get to the bottom unless they are curious, which I would argue are also the ones more likely to become developers in the end. > My 2cents (while I'm in NYC anyway). > > > Simon > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From thomasj at fedoraproject.org Sun Aug 23 14:55:14 2009 From: thomasj at fedoraproject.org (Thomas Janssen) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 16:55:14 +0200 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <4A8EEE56.3070708@fedoraproject.org> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> <4A8EB12A.9030604@math.unl.edu> <4A8EEE56.3070708@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: 2009/8/21 Rahul Sundaram : > On 08/21/2009 08:07 PM, Rex Dieter wrote: >> But let's not get muddled in details. >> >> Let me be brutally honest: ?withholding choice and options here and/or >> diminishing kde's visibility *will* disenfranchise a lot of people. >> We'll lose out PR-wise big time, especially in light of opensuse's >> recent work that is largely perceived as doing right by the community. >> >> Is that a price the board is willing to pay? > > Can't speak for the board but what opensuse did was go from trying to > satisfy everybody (FAIL) to picking a default (right model). That > actually seems to validate what Fedora is doing. The default is > different because the community is different. Think about it. Erm.. what openSUSE did was, leave everything as it is, but changed to KDE as the default DE on the DVD. Means if you leave the installer at the defaults, you get the KDE desktop instead of the GNOME one. -- LG Thomas Dubium sapientiae initium From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sun Aug 23 15:13:48 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 20:43:48 +0530 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> <4A8EB12A.9030604@math.unl.edu> <4A8EEE56.3070708@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <4A915CAC.1050201@fedoraproject.org> On 08/23/2009 08:25 PM, Thomas Janssen wrote: > 2009/8/21 Rahul Sundaram >> On 08/21/2009 08:07 PM, Rex Dieter wrote: >>> But let's not get muddled in details. >>> >>> Let me be brutally honest: withholding choice and options here and/or >>> diminishing kde's visibility *will* disenfranchise a lot of people. >>> We'll lose out PR-wise big time, especially in light of opensuse's >>> recent work that is largely perceived as doing right by the community. >>> >>> Is that a price the board is willing to pay? >> >> Can't speak for the board but what opensuse did was go from trying to >> satisfy everybody (FAIL) to picking a default (right model). That >> actually seems to validate what Fedora is doing. The default is >> different because the community is different. Think about it. > > Erm.. what openSUSE did was, leave everything as it is, but changed to > KDE as the default DE on the DVD. Means if you leave the installer at > the defaults, you get the KDE desktop instead of the GNOME one. How does this contradict anything I said? They simply didn't have any defaults before, for the past few releases and forced users to pick a desktop environment justifying it as "pro choice and pro freedom". Now they have realized that trying to satisfy everybody is a path to failure and picked what their community wanted as the default. Fedora has always had a default. Fedora got it right. Rahul From thomasj at fedoraproject.org Sun Aug 23 15:55:56 2009 From: thomasj at fedoraproject.org (Thomas Janssen) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 17:55:56 +0200 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <4A915CAC.1050201@fedoraproject.org> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> <4A8EB12A.9030604@math.unl.edu> <4A8EEE56.3070708@fedoraproject.org> <4A915CAC.1050201@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: 2009/8/23 Rahul Sundaram : > On 08/23/2009 08:25 PM, Thomas Janssen wrote: >> 2009/8/21 Rahul Sundaram >>> On 08/21/2009 08:07 PM, Rex Dieter wrote: >>>> But let's not get muddled in details. >>>> >>>> Let me be brutally honest: ?withholding choice and options here and/or >>>> diminishing kde's visibility *will* disenfranchise a lot of people. >>>> We'll lose out PR-wise big time, especially in light of opensuse's >>>> recent work that is largely perceived as doing right by the community. >>>> >>>> Is that a price the board is willing to pay? >>> >>> Can't speak for the board but what opensuse did was go from trying to >>> satisfy everybody (FAIL) to picking a default (right model). That >>> actually seems to validate what Fedora is doing. The default is >>> different because the community is different. Think about it. >> >> Erm.. what openSUSE did was, leave everything as it is, but changed to >> KDE as the default DE on the DVD. Means if you leave the installer at >> the defaults, you get the KDE desktop instead of the GNOME one. > > How does this contradict anything I said? They simply didn't have any > defaults before, for the past few releases and forced users to pick a > desktop environment justifying it as "pro choice and pro freedom". I cant see anything wrong at pro choice and especially not at pro freedom. I have to boot my OS11-DVD again to be 100% sure, but IIRC they had GNOME before. They changed it because they have something we dont. openfate, a FeatureTracker where user can post their wishes and *vote* for it. Anyways. What you said was "picking a default" is the right model. And that wasn't what was done. Novell changed the default Desktop from KDE to GNOME and now it's back, because the *community* wanted it. > Now they have realized that trying to satisfy everybody is a path to failure > and picked what their community wanted as the default. ?Fedora has > always had a default. Fedora got it right. I cant completely agree with you here. I'm not saying that Fedora is wrong with it, but the *how* is wrong. If you want to grow your userbase, you have to listen to your community. If you don't do it, don't wonder if it's not growing (i do understand that you can't listen for every single peep). But if there is something bigger, you should at least listen and take it seriously. So if you've said openSUSE got it right (because they listen to the community and of course take it seriously) i would agree. But that's just the 2 cents of a proud KDE user. -- LG Thomas Dubium sapientiae initium From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sun Aug 23 16:04:17 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 21:34:17 +0530 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> <4A8EB12A.9030604@math.unl.edu> <4A8EEE56.3070708@fedoraproject.org> <4A915CAC.1050201@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <4A916881.8050205@fedoraproject.org> On 08/23/2009 09:25 PM, Thomas Janssen wrote: > I cant see anything wrong at pro choice and especially not at pro > freedom. Forcing users to pick a desktop environment is no more a favorable point than forcing users to pick a text editor. In either case, it is the distribution's job to pick a default. The mechanism is completely a orthogonal point. The fact is that they now have a default choice where they didn't have one for several releases. That is a important thing to take into consideration while arguing about abstracts like "choice" or "freedom". Fact is that, such abstracts don't make a good argument at all. > I cant completely agree with you here. I'm not saying that Fedora is > wrong with it, but the *how* is wrong If you want to grow your > userbase, you have to listen to your community. If you don't do it, > don't wonder if it's not growing (i do understand that you can't > listen for every single peep). Then, what does listening to the community mean, exactly? Community is not a single entity with a chorus view point. The free software community tends to be a very diverse group with very different and strong view points that contradict each other. I don't agree that fanboysim in a voting poll is equivalent to listening to the community. If popularity is the right choice, we should all be running Windows instead. Rahul From thomasj at fedoraproject.org Sun Aug 23 16:19:18 2009 From: thomasj at fedoraproject.org (Thomas Janssen) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 18:19:18 +0200 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <1250905758.9488.74.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> <4A8EB12A.9030604@math.unl.edu> <1250868576.3159.110.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A8EE64C.6090400@gmail.com> <1250883073.8252.49.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A8F496D.9040306@gmail.com> <1250905758.9488.74.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: 2009/8/22 M?ir?n Duffy : > One of the things I love about Fedora in KDE is that it is "Fedora KDE." > It's not, "Kedora" or some other silly name, branded completely > separately from the main project and left to fend for itself, not a > 'true' Fedora. > > Is that not a symbol in itself of the Fedora Community's appreciation > for the KDE SIG? I don't think that has anything to do with the "Community's appreciation" for the KDE SIG. But i might be wrong. > Fedora KDE is NOT a distro. Fedora KDE is part of a larger distro, and > that distro is called FEDORA. Well, where is Fedora GNOME as part of this larger distro? Just to use your argument. If Fedora is a big thing with many parts, i can't see that one. >> Now they see the website mockup. ?Wow, it sure is beautiful! ?Such an >> improvement over what we had currently. ?I'm sure glad Fedora KDE is >> part of this.... Wait a minute. ?Why isn't Fedora KDE part of this?! > > How is Fedora KDE not a part of this design? Fedora KDE will have a site > all its own that users can be directed to. Do we have a Fedora GNOME page where all it's users can be directed to as well? -- LG Thomas Dubium sapientiae initium From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sun Aug 23 16:33:47 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 22:03:47 +0530 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> <4A8EB12A.9030604@math.unl.edu> <1250868576.3159.110.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A8EE64C.6090400@gmail.com> <1250883073.8252.49.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A8F496D.9040306@gmail.com> <1250905758.9488.74.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4A916F6B.2080700@fedoraproject.org> On 08/23/2009 09:49 PM, Thomas Janssen wrote: > 2009/8/22 M?ir?n Duffy : >> >> How is Fedora KDE not a part of this design? Fedora KDE will have a site >> all its own that users can be directed to. > > Do we have a Fedora GNOME page where all it's users can be directed to as well? It isn't required because the default download will include GNOME. If GNOME developers want it, let them ask for it. Why are you worried about it? Rahul From thomasj at fedoraproject.org Sun Aug 23 16:46:40 2009 From: thomasj at fedoraproject.org (Thomas Janssen) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 18:46:40 +0200 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <4A916881.8050205@fedoraproject.org> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> <4A8EB12A.9030604@math.unl.edu> <4A8EEE56.3070708@fedoraproject.org> <4A915CAC.1050201@fedoraproject.org> <4A916881.8050205@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: 2009/8/23 Rahul Sundaram : > On 08/23/2009 09:25 PM, Thomas Janssen wrote: > Forcing users to pick a desktop environment is no more a favorable point > than forcing users to pick a text editor. Well, not really the same. There are already some different text editors installed by default. Vi, nano for example and the graphical is anyways choosen by the DE. Anyways. The whole point in this thread is about to have a "general Download" link on the front page that leads to a download page with a "default enabled" (radio button for example) image of the "fedora gnome edition". And the other Fedora Editions like KDE, XFCE, LXDE and the different spins we have. You can combine that with lots of information with ajax technology or popup windows or links to completely other pages. If you can't grow your userbase with it, you can't anyways. > In either case, it is the > distribution's job to pick a default. Nobody, absolutely nobody said you shouldn't pick a default. Of course pick it, but show the rest as well in the same manner. So you can satisfy everybody and have a default. >> I cant completely agree with you here. I'm not saying that Fedora is >> wrong with it, but the *how* is wrong > > If you want to grow your >> userbase, you have to listen to your community. If you don't do it, >> don't wonder if it's not growing (i do understand that you can't >> listen for every single peep). > > Then, what does listening to the community mean, exactly? You mean because of the "every peep"? That's obviously. If your userbase is 10.000 user (fiction) and 5 users have the wish for XY, that's a peep you, most likely, can't satisfy. If there's a vote of 4000 users of your userbase, you should maybe listen closer or you might get some trouble. And if my english would be as good as my german i could explain it with better words. Sorry. > Community is > not a single entity with a chorus view point. The free software > community tends to be a very diverse group with very different and > strong view points that contradict each other. ?I don't agree that > fanboysim in a voting poll is equivalent to listening to the community. So what is listen to the community for you? And it has nothing to do with fanboyism what i wrote. It's just the example with KDE. But oh well, the "fanboyism" was the biggest wish of the community. Look at that. -- LG Thomas Dubium sapientiae initium From thomasj at fedoraproject.org Sun Aug 23 16:51:21 2009 From: thomasj at fedoraproject.org (Thomas Janssen) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 18:51:21 +0200 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <4A916F6B.2080700@fedoraproject.org> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> <4A8EB12A.9030604@math.unl.edu> <1250868576.3159.110.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A8EE64C.6090400@gmail.com> <1250883073.8252.49.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A8F496D.9040306@gmail.com> <1250905758.9488.74.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A916F6B.2080700@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: 2009/8/23 Rahul Sundaram : > On 08/23/2009 09:49 PM, Thomas Janssen wrote: >> 2009/8/22 M?ir?n Duffy : >>> >>> How is Fedora KDE not a part of this design? Fedora KDE will have a site >>> all its own that users can be directed to. >> >> Do we have a Fedora GNOME page where all it's users can be directed to as well? > > It isn't required because the default download will include GNOME. If > GNOME developers want it, let them ask for it. Why are you worried about it? Because of my IRC experience in #fedora, where we have *a ton* of the "Desktop" users who cant even find the basic things at the Menu. -- LG Thomas Dubium sapientiae initium From a.badger at gmail.com Sun Aug 23 16:51:52 2009 From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 09:51:52 -0700 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <4A916F6B.2080700@fedoraproject.org> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> <4A8EB12A.9030604@math.unl.edu> <1250868576.3159.110.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A8EE64C.6090400@gmail.com> <1250883073.8252.49.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A8F496D.9040306@gmail.com> <1250905758.9488.74.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A916F6B.2080700@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <4A9173A8.7070607@gmail.com> On 08/23/2009 09:33 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > On 08/23/2009 09:49 PM, Thomas Janssen wrote: >> 2009/8/22 M?ir?n Duffy : >>> >>> How is Fedora KDE not a part of this design? Fedora KDE will have a site >>> all its own that users can be directed to. >> >> Do we have a Fedora GNOME page where all it's users can be directed to as well? > > It isn't required because the default download will include GNOME. If > GNOME developers want it, let them ask for it. Why are you worried about it? > Actually... If I've understood mizmo's mockups correctly, there will be a Fedora GNOME page (but called the Fedora Desktop or whatever the name is). Conceptually, the fact that Fedora GNOME is also the livecd that is downloaded via get.fpo is supposed to be beside the fact in this design. -Toshio -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sun Aug 23 16:54:43 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 22:24:43 +0530 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> <4A8EB12A.9030604@math.unl.edu> <1250868576.3159.110.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A8EE64C.6090400@gmail.com> <1250883073.8252.49.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A8F496D.9040306@gmail.com> <1250905758.9488.74.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A916F6B.2080700@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <4A917453.1010502@fedoraproject.org> On 08/23/2009 10:21 PM, Thomas Janssen wrote: > 2009/8/23 Rahul Sundaram : >> On 08/23/2009 09:49 PM, Thomas Janssen wrote: >>> 2009/8/22 M?ir?n Duffy : >>>> >>>> How is Fedora KDE not a part of this design? Fedora KDE will have a site >>>> all its own that users can be directed to. >>> >>> Do we have a Fedora GNOME page where all it's users can be directed to as well? >> >> It isn't required because the default download will include GNOME. If >> GNOME developers want it, let them ask for it. Why are you worried about it? > > Because of my IRC experience in #fedora, where we have *a ton* of the > "Desktop" users who cant even find the basic things at the Menu. There will always be such users. It can be helped with documentation in some cases. Not necessary a separate page. Rahul From rdieter at math.unl.edu Sun Aug 23 17:03:05 2009 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 12:03:05 -0500 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> Message-ID: <4A917649.8060204@math.unl.edu> M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > - By next Friday I am hoping to close out the feedback period so I can > crank out the rest of the work (which is hopefully less controversial) > so I can get the websites team a solid set of mockups by Sept. 20 for > the spins and by Sept. 27 for the FPO-related stuffs. > > - F12 comes out and the new site design comes out. Hopefully you don't > all hate me at this point and we have a website that at least most if > not everyone can be proud of (if not at least unashamed of. :) ) Everyone should at least appreciate the hard work put into these new designs. It's been a valuable discussion too, and the kde sig will do it's best to accept and work within the current design goals and requirements. In my mind anyway, there's no doubt that the overall result will be a significant improvement over the status-quo. That said, it's clear that many of the concerns and issues we have seem to be fundamental ones that simply aren't rectifiable in this design phase, given the goals and requirements currently outlined by the board. The hope is that we can continue to work with the board to address that in the future. -- Rex From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sun Aug 23 17:13:06 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 22:43:06 +0530 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> <4A8EB12A.9030604@math.unl.edu> <4A8EEE56.3070708@fedoraproject.org> <4A915CAC.1050201@fedoraproject.org> <4A916881.8050205@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <4A9178A2.9050906@fedoraproject.org> On 08/23/2009 10:16 PM, Thomas Janssen wrote: > Nobody, absolutely nobody said you shouldn't pick a default. Of course > pick it, but show the rest as well in the same manner. Since you agree that there should be a default, this is exactly what my point was about openSUSE's current decision of having a default instead of leaving it all open to end users but I don't agree that we need to put all the other desktop environments at the same level in the front page. There are just too many. This would clutter the download page and confuse users. The users who would get confused about it is always going to be the majority and unless we want to ignore that audience (which would be a valid option as well), our design should cater to them. I also recommend listening to http://www.ted.com/talks/barry_schwartz_on_the_paradox_of_choice.html > So what is listen to the community for you? And it has nothing to do > with fanboyism what i wrote. It's just the example with KDE. "?If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.? - Henry Ford. That is a often repeated quote on relying on the consequence of relying on the wisdom of the masses. Your example of listening to the community is a popularity contest. I don't think popularity contest is the right way to make every decision. A vote on Fedora theme from end users would never really consider factors such as copyright, usability testing, contrast against desktop icons and so on yet these are critically important to us in making the right choices. Users will often look for short term gratification and the votes often reflect this. In several decisions, users are not going to able to determine the technical nuances of the decision well enough to make a informed choice. A vote for SELinux enabled by default would have never come from users directly especially around the time we did make that choice. I would argue that, Fedora and Linux on the whole benefited from that decision nevertheless. There is no silver bullet solution to this. We can take a vote into account on occasions but blindly following it is a disaster. Rahul From tcallawa at redhat.com Sun Aug 23 17:38:33 2009 From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom "spot" Callaway) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 13:38:33 -0400 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <200908231027.58941.MathStuf@gmail.com> References: <200908231027.58941.MathStuf@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A917E99.4070207@redhat.com> On 08/23/2009 10:27 AM, Ben Boeckel wrote: > Good point. Kevin said on IRC earlier today that we may be looking at it from different viewpoints as well. The current mockups assume new-to-Linux while in the KDE SIG we are looking from a new-to-Fedora-but-familiar-with-Linux viewpoint. Maybe this is a part of the root of the problem behind how we see these mockups? Quite possibly. FWIW, from my perspective, I see the "get.fp.o" page as something that should be friendly and easy for the "new to linux", while still clearly pointing folks who are "familiar with Linux" to the spins page, where they can make an educated choice. ~spot From thomasj at fedoraproject.org Sun Aug 23 17:43:52 2009 From: thomasj at fedoraproject.org (Thomas Janssen) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 19:43:52 +0200 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <4A9178A2.9050906@fedoraproject.org> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> <4A8EB12A.9030604@math.unl.edu> <4A8EEE56.3070708@fedoraproject.org> <4A915CAC.1050201@fedoraproject.org> <4A916881.8050205@fedoraproject.org> <4A9178A2.9050906@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: 2009/8/23 Rahul Sundaram : > On 08/23/2009 10:16 PM, Thomas Janssen wrote: > >> Nobody, absolutely nobody said you shouldn't pick a default. Of course >> pick it, but show the rest as well in the same manner. > > Since you agree that there should be a default, this is exactly what my > point was about openSUSE's current decision of having a default instead > of leaving it all open to end users but I don't agree that we need to > put all the other desktop environments at the same level in the front > page. There are just too many. This would clutter the download page and > confuse users. You haven't carefully read what i wrote. I said a "General Download Link" [Download] leading to the download page (and this page provides what i wrote). I doubt you want different download pages. > We can take a vote into account on occasions but blindly following it is > a disaster. What i said with other words. You can't listen to 1% of your userbase. But if 40-50-60-70% has that wish. You might not ignore them. Of course you can. -- LG Thomas Dubium sapientiae initium From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sun Aug 23 17:46:40 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 23:16:40 +0530 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> <4A8EB12A.9030604@math.unl.edu> <4A8EEE56.3070708@fedoraproject.org> <4A915CAC.1050201@fedoraproject.org> <4A916881.8050205@fedoraproject.org> <4A9178A2.9050906@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <4A918080.7070305@fedoraproject.org> On 08/23/2009 11:13 PM, Thomas Janssen wrote: > You haven't carefully read what i wrote. I said a "General Download > Link" [Download] leading to the download page (and this page provides > what i wrote). > I doubt you want different download pages. Yes but that is already being taken into account in the current mockups. get.fp.o vs spins.fp.o. Don't see any disagreement. >> We can take a vote into account on occasions but blindly following it is >> a disaster. > > What i said with other words. You can't listen to 1% of your userbase. > But if 40-50-60-70% has that wish. You might not ignore them. > Of course you can. Yes, we can still override the overwhelming majority if they vote for example, no password prompts anywhere. My point is simply that, a vote can only be one of the factors if at all in any decision about defaults. The actual majority of users simply won't care about technical gibberish like GNOME or KDE or Xfce. Rahul From mairin at linuxgrrl.com Sun Aug 23 18:39:31 2009 From: mairin at linuxgrrl.com (mairin at linuxgrrl.com) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 14:39:31 -0400 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <200908231038.32226.MathStuf@gmail.com> References: <200908220201.43424.MathStuf@gmail.com> <1250921059.9488.187.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200908231038.32226.MathStuf@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On Saturday 22 August 2009 02:04:19 M?ir?n Duffy wrote: >> On Sat, 2009-08-22 at 02:01 -0400, Ben Boeckel wrote: > I think people understand that there are people who know better than them > at something. Yes, that doesn't mean they like to be reminded of it. If you want to attract people you work at making them feel good, not stupid. > Do math geniuses get pushed off to the side just because not > everyone knows as much as them? According to my high school experiences, yes. > >> - What happens if you have more than 4 desktop environments? How does >> the design handle that? > They can be put into a vertical layout instead of a grid. This can be > decided at each release since the Editions available for that release are > unlikely to change over the life of that release. Which one comes first then? How do you allay concerns about this? > >> - What if I want KDE x86_64? Where do I go? These are technical people, >> they need access to all the arches. > Put two buttons next to each other with a link to each. Okay, so you're going to have a grid of 8 download links plus link #9 for the n00bs. A sea of links, just like we used to have long ago and what we have been trying to avoid. > >> - What if (quite likely) all of the desktop environment logos clash with >> each other and they don't all look professional? > They'd clash in the spins page as well. I was thinking of the images used > there, not the actual project logos. It was late, vocabulary was failing. They wouldn't clash in the spins page because we're branding Fedora spins with the Fedora sublogo template. > >> - What is the sidebar going to have in it? The documentation we have in >> the sidebar in the mockups is going to be useless because it is >> GNOME-only. > The install for all of them is Anaconda, so there's no difference there. > They both have links on the desktop (IIRC, I haven't run the KDE Live > myself in a while). The biggest difference from the install is having to > "customize packages" to get KDE (and to disable GNOME, which is a PITA). That needs to be worked out. >> - Fedora is not a menagerie of desktop environments. This makes it seem >> as if it is. Gotta collect them all. Here is pikachu, here is.. uh, >> toad-guy, here is giraffe guy... > Do people see all the versions of Windows as "collectable"? This argument > is silly. Fedora is not just GNOME either. I see no reason to be > deceptive. Right now, your mockup looks like a little glass shelf where one puts their collectibles to be gazed at. Which is confusing. Is Fedora one thing, or is Fedora this collection of things? Do I need to download all of these to really get it? > >> - If you're catering to people who know what they're doing, you better >> offer a bittorrent link per spin. And an md5 sum. And a link to the gpg >> keys to verify the packages. > Currently there's a portal page with the "Of your download does not start > in 5 seconds, click ." This information can go there. No, that portal page was designed just for the default download. We'd need to design a portal page, for each of the spins tailored to it. (a lot of maintenance) > >> You've basically turned the design inside out. The designs I did make it >> very easy and welcoming for newbies (where newbies != grandma), and they >> require just one additional click from people who are already in the >> community and feel welcome. > It makes those looking for not-Desktop (whatever that may be, not > specified anywhere, really needs a GNOME label on it, s/Desktop/GNOME/ > would be best IMO) feel alienated. The "one click" is small and hard to > find. It's really frustrating for me to hear words like "alienated" and "demoralized" and "disenfranchised" about a web page. Please think about WHO would be looking for a not-Desktop spin. Think about this. Tell me how many people this is in comparison to others today. Tell me how this can be reconciled with the requirements for this page, which state that we are seeking to attract users who are new to Linux & open source. > >> This design basically makes it clear that new people are not very >> welcome - it provides a lot of choices right away, and tells the newbies >> to go elsewhere, forcing them through 3 clicks and 3 page loads just to >> get Fedora. They haven't bought in yet. Current community members have. > I think people can expect a "here's what we're about, let us walk you > through" to something like Linux. It's not like buying a new handsoap or > something. Huh? I'm not following at all. I want to try Linux, I don't want to get a tour of every single desktop environment available. > >> I'm also curious how this design would interact with the big 'download' >> button on the front page that has been proposed. > Goes to this page if OS == Linux and where the big download goes for != > Linux? If could go to this page no matter what. There are websites that > have a button on the frontpage that doesn't link straight to a file. I can > find some if you want, but I've hit them enough that I think you've > probably seen them too. The point behind the button is to have one-click download.... ~m From mairin at linuxgrrl.com Sun Aug 23 18:46:40 2009 From: mairin at linuxgrrl.com (mairin at linuxgrrl.com) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 14:46:40 -0400 Subject: please review mockup (was Re: website mockups, what is fedora?) In-Reply-To: <1250922084.9488.192.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <1250893245.9488.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1250922084.9488.192.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: Hey, so while the two page-fuls of emails containing philosophical discussions that I've gotten this afternoon are interesting, I've yet to receive any feedback on the mockup I stayed up until past 2 AM on a Friday night to make. I tried to work in the suggestions Toshio gave me here on the list. Please let me know if this mockup is an improvement over the other one and helps. Please also remember that I'm trying to close out the feedback period next Friday so the designs can be done in time for the websites team to crank out html/css, get it translated, do browser testing, and get it up on the site in time for F12. ~m > On Fri, 2009-08-21 at 18:20 -0400, M??ir??n Duffy wrote: >> >> - I'm going to use some of Toshio's suggestions for the get-fedora page >> (#2) and play around with the balance between the DOWNLOAD NOW!!!!111 >> option and the 'other options' option. I'll probably make a few >> iterations here and solicit your input. > > Here's what a bunch of us came up with in #fedora-admin tonight. Let me > know if it's any better: > > http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfpo-16.png > > BTW here is the sitemap again to put this design in context: > > http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/wwwfpo_diagram.png > > The mockup is for screen #2, 'get fedora' > > ~m > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board > From stickster at gmail.com Sun Aug 23 19:38:16 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul Frields) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 15:38:16 -0400 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <200908231027.58941.MathStuf@gmail.com> References: <200908231027.58941.MathStuf@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 10:27 AM, Ben Boeckel wrote: >> The challenge for the adventurous 'all-choice' population is to >> realize that they aren't the lion share of people. >> > > Good point. Kevin said on IRC earlier today that we may > be looking at it from different viewpoints as well. The > current mockups assume new-to-Linux while in the KDE > SIG we are looking from a new-to-Fedora-but-familiar- > with-Linux viewpoint. Maybe this is a part of the root of > the problem behind how we see these mockups? It may be. That's why we set out a set of audience precepts to show for whom these pages are intended. I think the assumption that people looking for a specific set of tools, or for a specific spin they've either seen or heard about, are going to blindly look for the general download page, especially if we present better options for them. If I'm in the KDE SIG, promoting Fedora at a show, or pointing out our spin to someone in person, over email, on IRC, or elsewhere, if I have a place to point people directly such as "get.fp.o/kde", that is where I'll send them. Why would I send them elsewhere on a goose chase when I can put them right where they'll see what I work on every day? It is bad design and the wrong strategy to force that goal onto the get-fedora page, which has a very different set of objectives. That's why this fixation on making the general get-fedora page more complex and choice-laden seems very counterproductive to me. It assumes that we should have a goal for that page of diverting people who don't know how to make an informed choice, to force them to make that choice. As we've laid out previously, the purpose of this page is to cater -- not exclusively, but primarily -- to people who are not looking for a panoply of choices. We're providing *other* pages to cater to people looking for either specific choices, or a large menu of options. The get-fedora page *does* need to provide for the relatively small portion of people who end up there by accident, giving them a way to find the things they were looking for. Those people are incented to read the whole page to find what they want, and the "route to choice" area prominently displays a number of the most popular things they'd be looking for. Paul From stickster at gmail.com Sun Aug 23 19:51:24 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul Frields) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 15:51:24 -0400 Subject: please review mockup (was Re: website mockups, what is fedora?) In-Reply-To: References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <1250893245.9488.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1250922084.9488.192.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 2:46 PM, wrote: > Hey, so while the two page-fuls of emails containing philosophical > discussions that I've gotten this afternoon are interesting, I've yet to > receive any feedback on the mockup I stayed up until past 2 AM on a Friday > night to make. I tried to work in the suggestions Toshio gave me here on > the list. > > Please let me know if this mockup is an improvement over the other one and > helps. > > Please also remember that I'm trying to close out the feedback period next > Friday so the designs can be done in time for the websites team to crank > out html/css, get it translated, do browser testing, and get it up on the > site in time for F12. So the changes I see in this mockup -- which, by the way, looks great -- are: * Removes the "internet connection" requirement * Moves the "other options" block up in the secondary information block * Removes the explanatory "what do I do with this?" block in the secondary information block * No more panda (awww.) This mockup still satisfies all the criteria we set out on the wiki through https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Website_redesign_2009, in that it provides: * One simple, clear download option for the majority of visitors * A clear route to our other options (e.g. spins hub) Something that might help keep the "Other options" area from overwhelming the download button area would be to relocate the panda. I think removing the "confused panda" is a good idea because it sends a subtle signal that there's just too much going on in the page, and maybe the user *should* be confused. I could see putting a confident, happy panda next to the download button with a sort of Vanna White pose, so a user who's not looking for other options won't feel like they're making a mistake by taking the obvious choice. (I'm recalling Barry Schwarz's TED Talk on the paradox of choice here.) Paul From a.badger at gmail.com Sun Aug 23 19:51:20 2009 From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 12:51:20 -0700 Subject: please review mockup (was Re: website mockups, what is fedora?) In-Reply-To: References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <1250893245.9488.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1250922084.9488.192.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4A919DB8.4080902@gmail.com> On 08/23/2009 11:46 AM, mairin at linuxgrrl.com wrote: > Hey, so while the two page-fuls of emails containing philosophical > discussions that I've gotten this afternoon are interesting, I've yet to > receive any feedback on the mockup I stayed up until past 2 AM on a Friday > night to make. I tried to work in the suggestions Toshio gave me here on > the list. > > Please let me know if this mockup is an improvement over the other one and > helps. > I like the latest mockup and think it's a great improvement but you already knew that from IRC :-) I think that Rex also expressed his liking for the mockup with reservations about the goals which he will target to the Board for future changes rather than the design for F12. https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2009-August/msg00111.html I could have read more positive-ness into his message than is actually there since I've been watching the #fedora-kde channel and know what he's been cautiously positive there as well. -Toshio -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From jonstanley at gmail.com Sun Aug 23 20:24:37 2009 From: jonstanley at gmail.com (Jon Stanley) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 16:24:37 -0400 Subject: please review mockup (was Re: website mockups, what is fedora?) In-Reply-To: <4A919DB8.4080902@gmail.com> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <1250893245.9488.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1250922084.9488.192.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A919DB8.4080902@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 3:51 PM, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > I could have read more positive-ness into his message than is actually > there since I've been watching the #fedora-kde channel and know what > he's been cautiously positive there as well. I'm in #fedora-kde but haven't followed the discussion there (and I specifically haven't looked in order not to slant this mail :) ), but I read postiveness into what Rex said as well. Basically "the requirements that you were given are junk, but you did a great job within those constraints" is how I read it. Now whether the requirements were junk or not we could debate til we're blue in the face :) Again, as you know from IRC, I'm in favor of this new mockup as well :) From a.badger at gmail.com Sun Aug 23 20:27:29 2009 From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 13:27:29 -0700 Subject: please review mockup (was Re: website mockups, what is fedora?) In-Reply-To: References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <1250893245.9488.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1250922084.9488.192.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4A91A631.7030305@gmail.com> On 08/23/2009 12:51 PM, Paul Frields wrote: > Something that might help keep the "Other options" area from > overwhelming the download button area would be to relocate the panda. > I think removing the "confused panda" is a good idea because it sends > a subtle signal that there's just too much going on in the page, and > maybe the user *should* be confused. I could see putting a confident, > happy panda next to the download button with a sort of Vanna White > pose, so a user who's not looking for other options won't feel like > they're making a mistake by taking the obvious choice. (I'm recalling > Barry Schwarz's TED Talk on the paradox of choice here.) > I think the Download Now button is pretty darn prominent right now. It's big, first, centered with whitespace around it. Visually, it's the main element of the page and nothing else comes close to rivaling it. If you detract too much from the other options area, then they become overwhelmed by the download button. We do want people who are looking for the other options to feel that they should click there. People who aren't curious and just want to download Fedora are probably going to ignore everything beyond the main page element since that provides them with exactly what they are looking for. One person in #fedora-kde noted that the other options area still reminds them of the "fine print" boxes that you ignore when the main print is staring you in the face. I don't know if that particular person would be satisfied with anything less than equal billing (which would definitely *not* satisfy the Board requirements) but I do think that attempting to make the Download Now button even more prominent compared to "other options" is the wrong way to go. -Toshio -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From a.badger at gmail.com Sun Aug 23 20:57:59 2009 From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 13:57:59 -0700 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: References: <200908231027.58941.MathStuf@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A91AD57.2070609@gmail.com> On 08/23/2009 12:38 PM, Paul Frields wrote: > On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 10:27 AM, Ben Boeckel wrote: >>> The challenge for the adventurous 'all-choice' population is to >>> realize that they aren't the lion share of people. >>> >> >> Good point. Kevin said on IRC earlier today that we may >> be looking at it from different viewpoints as well. The >> current mockups assume new-to-Linux while in the KDE >> SIG we are looking from a new-to-Fedora-but-familiar- >> with-Linux viewpoint. Maybe this is a part of the root of >> the problem behind how we see these mockups? > > It may be. That's why we set out a set of audience precepts to show > for whom these pages are intended. I think the assumption that people > looking for a specific set of tools, or for a specific spin they've > either seen or heard about, are going to blindly look for the general > download page, especially if we present better options for them. > I imagine you want an "is false" at the end of that sentence :-) I think you're wrong though -- I think that people looking for a specific spin or a set of tools will look for the general download page. It's about the "task the user wants to perform", not the "type of Fedora". I want to download Fedora KDE, that got a positive review on a blog. I go to fedoraproject.org. I click on Download. I'm presented with getfp.o. At this point I don't need to see "Fedora desktop" and "Fedora KDE" side by side to know what to click. But I do need to see something that clues me into the fact that the big download now button isn't what I want to click. And that the "Spins" or "Other options" link is what I want. I think mizmo's current mockups are doing a reasonable job at this.... Maybe the Other options area could be highlighted more but I admit to being at a loss to know how. It's pretty hard for text/a list of links to compete with a big blue button. > If I'm in the KDE SIG, promoting Fedora at a show, or pointing out our > spin to someone in person, over email, on IRC, or elsewhere, if I have > a place to point people directly such as "get.fp.o/kde", that is where > I'll send them. Why would I send them elsewhere on a goose chase when > I can put them right where they'll see what I work on every day? I don't know about this either. If I'm at a show promoting Fedora KDE I would definitely send people directly to get.fp.o/kde. But if I'm at a show promoting Fedora, is that really what I'd do? It seems... unethical. I think most people in the KDE SIG would show people the new spins page and talk to them about the various choices that exist there. It's a higher touch sales pitch but it is more personal and more fair. The other option is that I will direct them to the get.fp.o page. Either because I don't want to be higher touch (although why I am promoting at a show and don't want to talk to people I don't know) or because I'm with a bunch of other Fedora Contributors and they're all showing people the get.fp.o page so I want us to look professional and have a consistent message for everyone. > It > is bad design and the wrong strategy to force that goal onto the > get-fedora page, which has a very different set of objectives. > > That's why this fixation on making the general get-fedora page more > complex and choice-laden seems very counterproductive to me. It > assumes that we should have a goal for that page of diverting people > who don't know how to make an informed choice, to force them to make > that choice. As we've laid out previously, the purpose of this page is > to cater -- not exclusively, but primarily -- to people who are not > looking for a panoply of choices. We're providing *other* pages to > cater to people looking for either specific choices, or a large menu > of options. > Not all of the people who have been speaking here feel that a strong enough default does not force choice on people. Or perhaps better stated as a very strong default is almost as good as a single choice solution while allowing for other goals to coexist in the design. Note that I'm happy with having a prominent enough link to a separate page with choices so I'm not going to talk further on this particular point -- you'll have to corner one of the people who has presented this side for that :-) > The get-fedora page *does* need to provide for the relatively small > portion of people who end up there by accident, giving them a way to > find the things they were looking for. Those people are incented to > read the whole page to find what they want, and the "route to choice" > area prominently displays a number of the most popular things they'd > be looking for. As implied by the first part of this reply, the one thing I disagree with you here is "people who end up there by accident". I agree that the current design of getfp.o is not intended for them to get value out of and also that the "more options area" is at least intended to direct them to the proper place. But I think it is wrong to think of them as getting to get.fp.o by accident. what do they want to do? Download Fedora SpinFoo. What will they click on on the front page? A navigation item that says 1) "Download SpinFoo", 2) "Download", or 3) "SpinFoo". We won't have a navigation item that says "Download SpinFoo". We will have one that says "Download" that takes people to get.fp.o. We might have something that says "SpinFoo" (for instance in the "banner ad" place) but it won't be a navigation item so that decreases the relevance people place on it. So lots of people who we want to go to the spins page are going to see get.fp.o before they get there. We need to be sure the bridge from get.fp.o to spins is apparent for all of those people. -Toshio -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From mairin at linuxgrrl.com Sun Aug 23 21:22:07 2009 From: mairin at linuxgrrl.com (mairin at linuxgrrl.com) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 17:22:07 -0400 Subject: please review mockup (was Re: website mockups, what is fedora?) In-Reply-To: References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <1250893245.9488.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1250922084.9488.192.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <2305cd4f633419512d52b1c11e359402.squirrel@webmail.linuxgrrl.com> > On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 2:46 PM, wrote: > So the changes I see in this mockup -- which, by the way, looks great -- > are: > > * Removes the "internet connection" requirement Yeh, it was pointed out it was a silly and potentially confusing bullet point there because you only need the connection to download the ISO, once you have the ISO you don't need a connection. > * Moves the "other options" block up in the secondary information block > * Removes the explanatory "what do I do with this?" block in the > secondary information block > * No more panda (awww.) Ah, this is a good idea, I should have written up a changelog for it. There's a few more changes, you can watch it starting at http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/page2.png then jump to http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfpo-2.png up to http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfpo-16.png hehe * the other options link directly under the download button + details about the download have been sized up (from about 7 pt to 12pt) * the entire 'what is live media?' block has been nuked * the how-to-upgrade block was rewritten and shortened to compete less with the other options block * the other options includes direct links to subpages, not just one main other options link, requiring less clicks for users who know which subpage to go to * an export regulations block has been added * I added an upgrade instructions resource to the resources area in the right sidebar - this is because some of the upgrade text was slimmed down and I wanted to make it more clear for people upgrading what to do (it'd point to the same thing as the 'more info' underneath the upgrade block does I am a little concerned about folks who might want to learn more about how to use live media before they download the iso. Maybe a link to more info about live media and how it works could go in the main paragraph at the top? > Something that might help keep the "Other options" area from > overwhelming the download button area would be to relocate the panda. > I think removing the "confused panda" is a good idea because it sends > a subtle signal that there's just too much going on in the page, and > maybe the user *should* be confused. I could see putting a confident, > happy panda next to the download button with a sort of Vanna White > pose, so a user who's not looking for other options won't feel like > they're making a mistake by taking the obvious choice. (I'm recalling > Barry Schwarz's TED Talk on the paradox of choice here.) I'm wondering if the Vanna White panda (ooh can I give it a dress?) pointing out the other options block would help draw attention to it since folks still seem to think it still is too de-emphasized... ~m From stickster at gmail.com Sun Aug 23 23:09:00 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul Frields) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 19:09:00 -0400 Subject: Board meeting change Message-ID: In last week's minutes, we set up our next meeting as a public IRC meeting in #fedora-design: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meeting:Board_meeting_2009-08-20 However, to accommodate some of the attendees, the meeting time will be *1630 UTC* instead of the normal 1600 UTC. Board members will be present and we'll use the meeting time to discuss the current mockups with the Design Team and the rest of the Fedora community. Everyone is welcome. Paul From stickster at gmail.com Sun Aug 23 23:28:43 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul Frields) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 19:28:43 -0400 Subject: please review mockup (was Re: website mockups, what is fedora?) In-Reply-To: <2305cd4f633419512d52b1c11e359402.squirrel@webmail.linuxgrrl.com> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <1250893245.9488.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1250922084.9488.192.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2305cd4f633419512d52b1c11e359402.squirrel@webmail.linuxgrrl.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 5:22 PM, wrote: >> On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 2:46 PM, wrote: >> So the changes I see in this mockup -- which, by the way, looks great -- >> are: >> >> * Removes the "internet connection" requirement > > Yeh, it was pointed out it was a silly and potentially confusing bullet > point there because you only need the connection to download the ISO, once > you have the ISO you don't need a connection. > >> * Moves the "other options" block up in the secondary information block >> * Removes the explanatory "what do I do with this?" block in the >> secondary information block >> * No more panda (awww.) > > Ah, this is a good idea, I should have written up a changelog for it. > There's a few more changes, you can watch it starting at > http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/page2.png then jump to > http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfpo-2.png up to > http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfpo-16.png hehe > > * the other options link directly under the download button + details > about the download have been sized up (from about 7 pt to 12pt) > * the entire 'what is live media?' block has been nuked > * the how-to-upgrade block was rewritten and shortened to compete less > with the other options block > * the other options includes direct links to subpages, not just one main > other options link, requiring less clicks for users who know which subpage > to go to > * an export regulations block has been added > * I added an upgrade instructions resource to the resources area in the > right sidebar - this is because some of the upgrade text was slimmed down > and I wanted to make it more clear for people upgrading what to do (it'd > point to the same thing as the 'more info' underneath the upgrade block > does You might actually want to remove the "Installation Guide" link -- because it doesn't work as well against Live media as the "Installation QSG" which is precisely designed for Live media (i.e. the fastest way to get and install Fedora). > I am a little concerned about folks who might want to learn more about how > to use live media before they download the iso. Maybe a link to more info > about live media and how it works could go in the main paragraph at the > top? Like a "How does this work?" link. That could work well. >> Something that might help keep the "Other options" area from >> overwhelming the download button area would be to relocate the panda. >> I think removing the "confused panda" is a good idea because it sends >> a subtle signal that there's just too much going on in the page, and >> maybe the user *should* be confused. ?I could see putting a confident, >> happy panda next to the download button with a sort of Vanna White >> pose, so a user who's not looking for other options won't feel like >> they're making a mistake by taking the obvious choice. (I'm recalling >> Barry Schwarz's TED Talk on the paradox of choice here.) > > I'm wondering if the Vanna White panda (ooh can I give it a dress?) > pointing out the other options block would help draw attention to it since > folks still seem to think it still is too de-emphasized... I think that would tend to undermine the non-confusing aspect for the primary audience for the page, i.e. people who are looking for the easiest and fastest way to get Fedora. The option block is already prominently highlighted with a grey box, and I don't think we're doing the page design any favors by diluting the way it serves that primary audience. Paul From mmcgrath at redhat.com Mon Aug 24 00:51:11 2009 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 19:51:11 -0500 (CDT) Subject: please review mockup (was Re: website mockups, what is fedora?) In-Reply-To: References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <1250893245.9488.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1250922084.9488.192.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Aug 2009, mairin at linuxgrrl.com wrote: > Hey, so while the two page-fuls of emails containing philosophical > discussions that I've gotten this afternoon are interesting, I've yet to > receive any feedback on the mockup I stayed up until past 2 AM on a Friday > night to make. I tried to work in the suggestions Toshio gave me here on > the list. > > Please let me know if this mockup is an improvement over the other one and > helps. > First, looks good. That's a get-fedora page we can all be proud of. One thing I (as someone who knows what I'm looking for) would bring up is I don't actually see the word "spins" on there anywhere. I know at the shows and in marketing we specifically use the word spins. Perhaps the "Other Options" header could be called "Other Options and Custom Spins" or something similar? If this was a design decision and I just missed it, my apologies. -Mike From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Aug 24 10:10:10 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 15:40:10 +0530 Subject: please review mockup (was Re: website mockups, what is fedora?) In-Reply-To: <2305cd4f633419512d52b1c11e359402.squirrel@webmail.linuxgrrl.com> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <1250893245.9488.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1250922084.9488.192.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2305cd4f633419512d52b1c11e359402.squirrel@webmail.linuxgrrl.com> Message-ID: <4A926702.6030800@fedoraproject.org> On 08/24/2009 02:52 AM, mairin at linuxgrrl.com wrote: > > Ah, this is a good idea, I should have written up a changelog for it. > There's a few more changes, you can watch it starting at > http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/page2.png then jump to > http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfpo-2.png up to > http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfpo-16.png hehe Installation quick start guide and installation guide, right next to each other is confusing. Which one should I pick and why? Am I missing out important information by reading the quick start guide? Why should I even read either of them? Does the installation guide link to the release notes and vice versa? Also 256 MB RAM is definitely not enough. Installer needs a minimum of 512 I think and the experience is going to be much better with 1 GB or above. Around 3 GB is enough for installation from the Live CD. 10 GB is not necessary IMO. Rahul From stickster at gmail.com Mon Aug 24 11:40:59 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 07:40:59 -0400 Subject: please review mockup (was Re: website mockups, what is fedora?) In-Reply-To: References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <1250893245.9488.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1250922084.9488.192.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20090824114059.GC3497@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 07:51:11PM -0500, Mike McGrath wrote: > On Sun, 23 Aug 2009, mairin at linuxgrrl.com wrote: > > > Hey, so while the two page-fuls of emails containing philosophical > > discussions that I've gotten this afternoon are interesting, I've yet to > > receive any feedback on the mockup I stayed up until past 2 AM on a Friday > > night to make. I tried to work in the suggestions Toshio gave me here on > > the list. > > > > Please let me know if this mockup is an improvement over the other one and > > helps. > > > > First, looks good. That's a get-fedora page we can all be proud of. One > thing I (as someone who knows what I'm looking for) would bring up is I > don't actually see the word "spins" on there anywhere. I know at the > shows and in marketing we specifically use the word spins. Perhaps the > "Other Options" header could be called "Other Options and Custom Spins" or > something similar? > > If this was a design decision and I just missed it, my apologies. The reason "Spins" doesn't appear here is because it's a Fedora jargon term. If you put it there, you also have to define what it means, which takes up space and distracts from the message you're trying to get to the viewer, which is that other options are available, regardless of what they're called in Fedora-land. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From a.badger at gmail.com Mon Aug 24 17:16:01 2009 From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 10:16:01 -0700 Subject: please review mockup (was Re: website mockups, what is fedora?) In-Reply-To: <2305cd4f633419512d52b1c11e359402.squirrel@webmail.linuxgrrl.com> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <1250893245.9488.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1250922084.9488.192.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2305cd4f633419512d52b1c11e359402.squirrel@webmail.linuxgrrl.com> Message-ID: <4A92CAD1.1000500@gmail.com> On 08/23/2009 02:22 PM, mairin at linuxgrrl.com wrote: > stickster wrote: >> Something that might help keep the "Other options" area from >> overwhelming the download button area would be to relocate the panda. >> I think removing the "confused panda" is a good idea because it sends >> a subtle signal that there's just too much going on in the page, and >> maybe the user *should* be confused. I could see putting a confident, >> happy panda next to the download button with a sort of Vanna White >> pose, so a user who's not looking for other options won't feel like >> they're making a mistake by taking the obvious choice. (I'm recalling >> Barry Schwarz's TED Talk on the paradox of choice here.) > > I'm wondering if the Vanna White panda (ooh can I give it a dress?) > pointing out the other options block would help draw attention to it since > folks still seem to think it still is too de-emphasized... > If you're okay with that, I like the idea a lot! The panda would be pretty low on the page as well so I don't think it would pull that much attention from the "Download Now" button. Just enough for people looking for something besides a simple download to hop to what the panda was pointing out as the second most important item. -Toshio -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From notting at redhat.com Mon Aug 24 19:56:00 2009 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 15:56:00 -0400 Subject: please review mockup (was Re: website mockups, what is fedora?) In-Reply-To: References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <1250893245.9488.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1250922084.9488.192.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20090824195600.GC1466@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> mairin at linuxgrrl.com (mairin at linuxgrrl.com) said: > Please let me know if this mockup is an improvement over the other one and > helps. I'm missing an earlier one to compare against... but it's certainly miles better than what's there now. Minor comments: - s/Need to upgrade/Already using/ ? - 'More download options' and 'Other options' seems redundant. - The light gray text gives an impression of the entire site running at 75% opacity to me. Maybe I'm nuts. Bill From kwade at redhat.com Mon Aug 24 21:43:02 2009 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 14:43:02 -0700 Subject: Structurelessness, feminism and open: what open advocates can learn from second wave feminists Message-ID: <20090824214302.GE4303@calliope.phig.org> One thing we don't do too much of on this list is discuss how power is controlled and wielded in the Fedora Project. As I've been doing a lot of thinking and reading lately about feminism and technology, this David Eaves post was a nice fit in to that. http://eaves.ca/2009/07/06/structurelessness-feminism-and-open It's a good meditation with good calls to action on how an open project can ensure it's _ability_ to grow contributor base. Amongst other stuff. Great read for anyone currently in this project, especially if you care about how it is going to look and act in the future. - Karsten -- Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener http://quaid.fedorapeople.org AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mairin at linuxgrrl.com Mon Aug 24 21:49:42 2009 From: mairin at linuxgrrl.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn?= Duffy) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 17:49:42 -0400 Subject: website mockups, what is fedora? In-Reply-To: <1250908432.9488.164.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <4A8EABF6.50009@redhat.com> <4A8EB12A.9030604@math.unl.edu> <1250868576.3159.110.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A8EE64C.6090400@gmail.com> <1250883073.8252.49.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4A8F496D.9040306@gmail.com> <1250905758.9488.74.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1250908432.9488.164.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1251150582.10226.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> I just wanted to bump this because I would love to see a response to this... Also note I'm currently running an informal survey about when/why - how - what users download to help inform this. But I need to hear from KDE folks too so I can understand your goals. ~m On Fri, 2009-08-21 at 22:33 -0400, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > KDE folks, please tell me HOW not having a link to the KDE spin on the > main download page is going to hurt you. Please. Tell me the problems it > will cause that I need to solve and I am sure they can be solved in > other and potentially better ways. > > I cannot solve the problems it will cause you in my designs if I do not > know what they are. I have tried to tell you in many different ways why > the link has been removed - along with 20 other links - because we are > targeting a new class of users. > > Tell me what you really want - what are the KDE spin's goals? > > - Do you want to grow users of Fedora KDE? What users are you looking to > attract? How do they differ from the target users of the Desktop spin? > How would you market to them? > > - Do you simply want KDE to be recognized as an important part of the > Fedora project? There are many, many, many potential ways of doing that, > that do not involve the 'Get Fedora' page at all. > > - Do you just want KDE to be easy to find for the experienced KDE users > that know what they're doing? There must be modifications we could do to > address this case. > > I'm trying to reverse-engineer your intentions. But I have NO CLUE what > it is you're wanting. My blog has been flooded with complaints that > there is no KDE link, and I've even been subject to rather harsh and > unfair berating in IRC over this. Let's fix this by talking about your > goals and your concerns about the problems this change is going to cause > rather than demanding via multiple forms of communication that it should > be added back without rationale. > > No matter how many times I repeat it I do not think it is going to > change - adding a KDE link to that page not only completely goes against > the requirement of having one main default download on the page, but it > really also goes against my professional opinion as a designer as what > is best for making a page that will attract the types of users that the > Board has told me they would like to make a try at. > > So please tell me what problems removing that link is going to cause > you, and please tell me what your goals as a project are. I will do my > very best to come up with something that you can at least be amenable to > (and I am hoping you would rather be delighted with it), I have > absolutely nothing against you and anytime I've needed help with > something KDE, KDE SIG members have been extremely responsive and > helpful. So, please don't take this or make this personal. Help me and > you have a right to complain if you don't like the results. > > If the goal is to 'show KDE as a prominent and valued member of the > Fedora community', again, there are far better ways of doing that than > cluttering up the main download page. For real. Fedora KDE is not just > an ISO file. Fedora KDE is a SIG, Fedora KDE is a community, Fedora KDE > is a group of really cool (well at least not when they're berating me in > IRC ;-) ) and smart people who put out one of the best versions of KDE > for a distro out there. So why do you sell all of Fedora KDE short by > considering it just to be an ISO file? From gdk at redhat.com Mon Aug 24 21:52:18 2009 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 17:52:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Structurelessness, feminism and open: what open advocates can learn from second wave feminists In-Reply-To: <20090824214302.GE4303@calliope.phig.org> References: <20090824214302.GE4303@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Aug 2009, Karsten Wade wrote: > One thing we don't do too much of on this list is discuss how power is > controlled and wielded in the Fedora Project. As I've been doing a > lot of thinking and reading lately about feminism and technology, this > David Eaves post was a nice fit in to that. > > http://eaves.ca/2009/07/06/structurelessness-feminism-and-open > > It's a good meditation with good calls to action on how an open > project can ensure it's _ability_ to grow contributor base. Amongst > other stuff. Great read for anyone currently in this project, > especially if you care about how it is going to look and act in the > future. >From TFA: "I've personally experienced the struggle of trying to engage/penetrate an open source community. Who I should talk to, how to present my ideas, where to present them -- all often have rules (of which, within Mozilla, I was usually informed by friends on the inside -- while occasionally I discovered the rules awkwardly, after grossly violating them). Most open source communities I know of -- such as Mozilla or Canada25 -- never claimed (thankfully) to be democratic, but there is an important lesson here. Recognizing the dangers of too much (or rather the wrong) structure is important. But that should not blind us to the other risk -- the danger outlined above by Freeman for feminists in 1970: that in our zeal to avoid bad structure, we open advocates begin to pretend that there is no structure, or no need for structure." I think we fight hard not to fall into this trap. We don't strive to be a democracy; we strive (certainly imperfectly) to be a meritocracy. He/she who solves problems, gets more problems to solve. Ideally. :) --g -- Computer Science professors should be teaching open source. Help make it happen. Visit http://teachingopensource.org. From tcallawa at redhat.com Mon Aug 24 21:54:47 2009 From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom "spot" Callaway) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 17:54:47 -0400 Subject: Structurelessness, feminism and open: what open advocates can learn from second wave feminists In-Reply-To: References: <20090824214302.GE4303@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <4A930C27.3040903@redhat.com> On 08/24/2009 05:52 PM, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > He/she who solves problems, gets more problems to solve. Ideally. Is this how I ended up with 300 packages? Damn! ~spot From stickster at gmail.com Mon Aug 24 21:56:00 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 17:56:00 -0400 Subject: please review mockup (was Re: website mockups, what is fedora?) In-Reply-To: <20090824195600.GC1466@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <4A8EA95D.4000206@math.unl.edu> <1250893245.9488.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1250922084.9488.192.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20090824195600.GC1466@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20090824215600.GE3497@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 03:56:00PM -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > mairin at linuxgrrl.com (mairin at linuxgrrl.com) said: > > Please let me know if this mockup is an improvement over the other one and > > helps. > > I'm missing an earlier one to compare against... but it's certainly miles > better than what's there now. > > Minor comments: > > - s/Need to upgrade/Already using/ ? > - 'More download options' and 'Other options' seems redundant. > - The light gray text gives an impression of the entire site running at 75% > opacity to me. Maybe I'm nuts. The evolution was: http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/page2.png http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfpo-2.png http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfpo-16.png -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From mairin at linuxgrrl.com Mon Aug 24 21:56:21 2009 From: mairin at linuxgrrl.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn?= Duffy) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 17:56:21 -0400 Subject: Structurelessness, feminism and open: what open advocates can learn from second wave feminists In-Reply-To: References: <20090824214302.GE4303@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <1251150981.10226.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2009-08-24 at 17:52 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > He/she > who solves problems, gets more problems to solve. Ideally. :) And the most important one is to figure out how to get others in the same position in case of an errant bus... :) ~m From gdk at redhat.com Mon Aug 24 22:03:22 2009 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 18:03:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Structurelessness, feminism and open: what open advocates can learn from second wave feminists In-Reply-To: <1251150981.10226.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20090824214302.GE4303@calliope.phig.org> <1251150981.10226.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: yOn Mon, 24 Aug 2009, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > On Mon, 2009-08-24 at 17:52 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: >> He/she who solves problems, gets more problems to solve. Ideally. :) > > And the most important one is to figure out how to get others in the > same position in case of an errant bus... :) Yeah, we can afford to work on this. To some degree, it's a natural tendency, I think; most folks who put in a lot of work, and care about something, respond when overloaded by trying to find others to share the load. I wonder how well we do that, as a community. --g -- Computer Science professors should be teaching open source. Help make it happen. Visit http://teachingopensource.org. From jspaleta at gmail.com Mon Aug 24 22:13:51 2009 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 14:13:51 -0800 Subject: Structurelessness, feminism and open: what open advocates can learn from second wave feminists In-Reply-To: References: <20090824214302.GE4303@calliope.phig.org> <1251150981.10226.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <604aa7910908241513x1de95652j2ec3026e054f4b1a@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 2:03 PM, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > I wonder how well we do that, as a community. How would you even begin to quantify that..... From a.badger at gmail.com Mon Aug 24 22:33:55 2009 From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 15:33:55 -0700 Subject: Structurelessness, feminism and open: what open advocates can learn from second wave feminists In-Reply-To: <604aa7910908241513x1de95652j2ec3026e054f4b1a@mail.gmail.com> References: <20090824214302.GE4303@calliope.phig.org> <1251150981.10226.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910908241513x1de95652j2ec3026e054f4b1a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A931553.2090001@gmail.com> On 08/24/2009 03:13 PM, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 2:03 PM, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: >> I wonder how well we do that, as a community. > > How would you even begin to quantify that..... > What is the growth rate of new committers and commits from new committers of Project Foo that person Bar is the owner of? How much does person Bar's commits towards Project Foo fall off over time while Project Foo remains active (through commits by the new committers)? If person Bar is averaging the same number of builds per month, are the packages that he/she owns changing? What's happening to the old packages? Are they being rebuilt by comaintainers/new maintainers? Are the comaintainers new packagers? Are package sponsors sponsoring people who take over packages that they own or that the packages they do own are either deps of or depped on by? These are all very rough and the means to get at this information is a bit convoluted, but I think it points at how the problem could be approached. -Toshio -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From mel at redhat.com Tue Aug 25 05:52:52 2009 From: mel at redhat.com (Mel Chua) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 01:52:52 -0400 Subject: Website redesign project page Message-ID: <4A937C34.101@redhat.com> For folks like me who are barely keeping up with the website mockups conversation... a couple of us took some time to put up a project page with scheduling, milestones, links to historical discussions for context, links to the requirements that previously lived at this URL, and other (hopefully) useful stuff of that nature. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Website_redesign_2009 It's meant to be a one-stop-shop for "what's up with this project, anyway?" status updates and basic questions. This was prompted by a discussion with Eike Hein in #fedora-kde - thanks, Eike. I'm trying to keep it up to date as I read through the conversation so far every evening, but I'm just doing this briefly once a day, and may miss stuff / will almost certainly be biased. Help staying afloat is welcome. :) --Mel From smparrish at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 15:18:07 2009 From: smparrish at gmail.com (Steven M. Parrish) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 11:18:07 -0400 Subject: Request for a *.fedoraproject.org subdomain Message-ID: <200908251118.08800.smparrish@gmail.com> During today's KDE-SIG meeting it was decided that we would like to establish a subdomain for our use. We are looking at kde.fedoraproject.org. This domain would be used for marketing of the KDE Fedora Spin and to provide a launching point for users wanting to download the spin. Would it also be possible to host the content on Fedora Infrastructure or do we need to provide our own. Any questions please ask. Regards, Steven ===================================================== Steven M. Parrish ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- gpg fingerprint: 4B6C 8357 059E B7ED 8095 0FD6 1F4B EDA0 A9A6 13C0 http://tuxbrewr.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: SMParrish @ #fedora-kde, #fedora-devel, #fedora-olpc, #sugar From stickster at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 15:33:38 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 11:33:38 -0400 Subject: Request for a *.fedoraproject.org subdomain In-Reply-To: <200908251118.08800.smparrish@gmail.com> References: <200908251118.08800.smparrish@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090825153338.GG3472@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 11:18:07AM -0400, Steven M. Parrish wrote: > During today's KDE-SIG meeting it was decided that we would like to establish > a subdomain for our use. We are looking at kde.fedoraproject.org. This > domain would be used for marketing of the KDE Fedora Spin and to provide a > launching point for users wanting to download the spin. > > Would it also be possible to host the content on Fedora Infrastructure or do > we need to provide our own. > > Any questions please ask. I don't see any problem with this; in fact, our redesign of the Spins hub anticipates this for Spins overall. So we could equally have an electronicslab.fedoraproject.org, lxde.fedoraproject.org, and so forth. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From mmcgrath at redhat.com Tue Aug 25 15:46:39 2009 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 10:46:39 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Request for a *.fedoraproject.org subdomain In-Reply-To: <200908251118.08800.smparrish@gmail.com> References: <200908251118.08800.smparrish@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Aug 2009, Steven M. Parrish wrote: > During today's KDE-SIG meeting it was decided that we would like to establish > a subdomain for our use. We are looking at kde.fedoraproject.org. This > domain would be used for marketing of the KDE Fedora Spin and to provide a > launching point for users wanting to download the spin. > > Would it also be possible to host the content on Fedora Infrastructure or do > we need to provide our own. > We'd host the content. Do we want a kde.fedoraproject.org site to redirect to spins.fedoraproject.org/kde/ or do we need to start hosting a bunch of entirely different websites? -Mike From stickster at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 17:04:19 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 13:04:19 -0400 Subject: Request for a *.fedoraproject.org subdomain In-Reply-To: References: <200908251118.08800.smparrish@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090825170419.GJ3472@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 10:46:39AM -0500, Mike McGrath wrote: > On Tue, 25 Aug 2009, Steven M. Parrish wrote: > > > During today's KDE-SIG meeting it was decided that we would like to establish > > a subdomain for our use. We are looking at kde.fedoraproject.org. This > > domain would be used for marketing of the KDE Fedora Spin and to provide a > > launching point for users wanting to download the spin. > > > > Would it also be possible to host the content on Fedora Infrastructure or do > > we need to provide our own. > > > > We'd host the content. Do we want a kde.fedoraproject.org site to > redirect to spins.fedoraproject.org/kde/ or do we need to start hosting a > bunch of entirely different websites? Subdomains for our various Spin offerings should follow the general look and feel provided by the Design team. There will be a section of content that each Spin provider can populate, laying out information about goals, composition, technical details, and so forth. There'd also be a standard Fedora branded banner of some sort like "KDE," "LXDE," and so forth. (For a good current example, refer to https://admin.fedoraproject.org/community .) All that would be contained within a general template that they can help us craft, using Design's general look and feel. I don't anticipate a bunch of completely different web sites, since users would then be very confused as to whether they were still on an official Fedora site or not. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From smparrish at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 18:18:01 2009 From: smparrish at gmail.com (Steven M. Parrish) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 14:18:01 -0400 Subject: Request for a *.fedoraproject.org subdomain Message-ID: <4a942adb.02015a0a.15e9.683e@mx.google.com> My goal is to make sure that we maintain the look and feel of f.p.o. The last thing we want is to confuse the user with a different design. Using a template for consistency is a great idea, and since none of us is a web designer we will make use of the Fedora Design team if they are willing to assist. Steven -----Original Message----- From: Paul W. Frields Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 1:04 PM To: fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com Subject: Re: Request for a *.fedoraproject.org subdomain On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 10:46:39AM -0500, Mike McGrath wrote: > On Tue, 25 Aug 2009, Steven M. Parrish wrote: > > > During today's KDE-SIG meeting it was decided that we would like to establish > > a subdomain for our use. We are looking at kde.fedoraproject.org. This > > domain would be used for marketing of the KDE Fedora Spin and to provide a > > launching point for users wanting to download the spin. > > > > Would it also be possible to host the content on Fedora Infrastructure or do > > we need to provide our own. > > > > We'd host the content. Do we want a kde.fedoraproject.org site to > redirect to spins.fedoraproject.org/kde/ or do we need to start hosting a > bunch of entirely different websites? Subdomains for our various Spin offerings should follow the general look and feel provided by the Design team. There will be a section of content that each Spin provider can populate, laying out information about goals, composition, technical details, and so forth. There'd also be a standard Fedora branded banner of some sort like "KDE," "LXDE," and so forth. (For a good current example, refer to https://admin.fedoraproject.org/community .) All that would be contained within a general template that they can help us craft, using Design's general look and feel. I don't anticipate a bunch of completely different web sites, since users would then be very confused as to whether they were still on an official Fedora site or not. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug _______________________________________________ fedora-advisory-board mailing list fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board From mmcgrath at redhat.com Tue Aug 25 18:34:46 2009 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 13:34:46 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Request for a *.fedoraproject.org subdomain In-Reply-To: <4a942adb.02015a0a.15e9.683e@mx.google.com> References: <4a942adb.02015a0a.15e9.683e@mx.google.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Aug 2009, Steven M. Parrish wrote: > My goal is to make sure that we maintain the look and feel of f.p.o. The last thing we want is to confuse the user with a different design. Using a template for consistency is a great idea, and since none of us is a web designer we will make use of the Fedora Design team if they are willing to assist. > Based on the mockups you see it would be very wise to start writing up paragraphs and getting whatever screen shots you feel are important together. Design is one thing, actual content is another. You can get the basics up and ready so we can get it filled in and handed back to you for tweaks and changes and things. -Mike > Steven > > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul W. Frields > Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 1:04 PM > To: fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > Subject: Re: Request for a *.fedoraproject.org subdomain > > On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 10:46:39AM -0500, Mike McGrath wrote: > > On Tue, 25 Aug 2009, Steven M. Parrish wrote: > > > > > During today's KDE-SIG meeting it was decided that we would like to establish > > > a subdomain for our use. We are looking at kde.fedoraproject.org. This > > > domain would be used for marketing of the KDE Fedora Spin and to provide a > > > launching point for users wanting to download the spin. > > > > > > Would it also be possible to host the content on Fedora Infrastructure or do > > > we need to provide our own. > > > > > > > We'd host the content. Do we want a kde.fedoraproject.org site to > > redirect to spins.fedoraproject.org/kde/ or do we need to start hosting a > > bunch of entirely different websites? > > Subdomains for our various Spin offerings should follow the general > look and feel provided by the Design team. There will be a section of > content that each Spin provider can populate, laying out information > about goals, composition, technical details, and so forth. > > There'd also be a standard Fedora branded banner of some sort like > "KDE," "LXDE," and so forth. (For a good current example, refer to > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/community .) All that would be > contained within a general template that they can help us craft, using > Design's general look and feel. > > I don't anticipate a bunch of completely different web sites, since > users would then be very confused as to whether they were still on an > official Fedora site or not. > > -- > Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ > gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 > http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ > irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board > > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board > From stickster at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 18:42:58 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 14:42:58 -0400 Subject: Request for a *.fedoraproject.org subdomain In-Reply-To: References: <4a942adb.02015a0a.15e9.683e@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <20090825184258.GY3472@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 01:34:46PM -0500, Mike McGrath wrote: > On Tue, 25 Aug 2009, Steven M. Parrish wrote: > > > My goal is to make sure that we maintain the look and feel of > > f.p.o. The last thing we want is to confuse the user with a > > different design. Using a template for consistency is a great > > idea, and since none of us is a web designer we will make use of > > the Fedora Design team if they are willing to assist. > > > > Based on the mockups you see it would be very wise to start writing up > paragraphs and getting whatever screen shots you feel are important > together. Design is one thing, actual content is another. You can get > the basics up and ready so we can get it filled in and handed back to you > for tweaks and changes and things. I think this was the most recent individual spin page Mo worked on. Remember the actual design is not set in stone there, but provides a decent guide for how you might use the content areas. I'm going to let the Spins SIG know they should ensure their other spin owners see this mockup and start writing up content as well. We can store that anywhere on the wiki, and link it from the web redesign pages for reference when it's time to populate the content. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From mmcgrath at redhat.com Tue Aug 25 18:48:00 2009 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 13:48:00 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Request for a *.fedoraproject.org subdomain In-Reply-To: References: <4a942adb.02015a0a.15e9.683e@mx.google.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Aug 2009, Mike McGrath wrote: > On Tue, 25 Aug 2009, Steven M. Parrish wrote: > > > My goal is to make sure that we maintain the look and feel of f.p.o. The last thing we want is to confuse the user with a different design. Using a template for consistency is a great idea, and since none of us is a web designer we will make use of the Fedora Design team if they are willing to assist. > > > > Based on the mockups you see it would be very wise to start writing up > paragraphs and getting whatever screen shots you feel are important > together. Design is one thing, actual content is another. You can get > the basics up and ready so we can get it filled in and handed back to you > for tweaks and changes and things. > Replying to myself here. I suspect these spins pages will be similarly controlled to the rest of our websites infrastructure. We build most sites from the fedora-web repo. I'm sure long term this will change, it's possible short term it will change as well. The basics are listed here: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/ShowUs This allows for a good amount of control, allows your pages to be completely translated, etc. As I understand it people in each sig will have the ability to edit and alter their pages on their own following the same requirements as the fedoraproject.org site (of which the important ones are look and feel and the string freeze deadline for the translators). The websites team will probably also be editing the spins pages to correct formatting issues, browser compatibility issues, fixing malformed or inefficient images / screenshots and that type of thing. I'm sure they'll help with anything else that is requested. This could all change if we find a better way of doing things while converting the mockups to code, but I suspect we'll end up with something very similar to how fedoraproject.org is presently built. -Mike From stickster at gmail.com Tue Aug 25 21:08:10 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 17:08:10 -0400 Subject: Choice, and where to have it Message-ID: <20090825210810.GI3472@localhost.localdomain> I think Fedora, with our foundation of Freedom, always includes the element of choice. Apropos of the website redesigns, one of the biggest struggles I've seen with the requirements the Board and I laid out is understanding where choice is of primary importance, and where it's not. One of the things the Board acknowledged early on in the redesign process weeks ago was that choice is important to a significant part of our community, including the KDE SIG. The KDE design philosophy, for instance, promotes choice and up-front flexibility, and people who enjoy KDE value choice accordingly. So, our goals and requirements being what they were, we did want to ensure there was a better way to present choice than our current website. The spins.fp.o redesign (which was also announced on this list) was intended to promote choice as a primary value. The current spins.fp.o is merely a torrent listing which is not only unattractive but offers no ability for Spin owners to actually promote their communities and their work. The get-fedora-all page is not materially better, because not only does it not show all choices, but it is actively confusing to users who are trying to find their choices to begin with. The new spins.fp.o design (latest mockup here [1]) does several things to value choice. First, it presents all options for spins, complete with easy access to a Download Now button that users can select for ease once they've found the spin of their choice. It also allows users to drill down into as many Spins as they like, with individual pages backing each Spin. These individual pages will feature customizable content, and each Spin owner can show off their work, and explain who/why/how to download it. As Steven Parrish wisely alluded to earlier, there's a great chance here for Spin owners to promote their work in a vastly improved way compared to our current anemic pages. For example, there can be a kde.fedoraproject.org or lxde.fedoraproject.org. These subdomains can point directly to the individual Spin community page, share a unified design with the look and feel of Fedora as seen on our other sites, but include a variety of content provided by the Spin owner. The Spin owners then have the ability when showing off their work to someone to say, "Hey, would you like a copy of this? Visit MMMM.fedoraproject.org for a free copy." The Spins site is a place where choice is a primary value, and we are still looking for ways to improve the choice opportunities there. At the same time, with this offering in place, the Board wants to make room for a get-fedora page that consciously does not set up choice as a primary value. That way we allow people who aren't in a position to make informed choice to still get a working Fedora as quickly as possible. Because the get-fedora page is not intended to act as a funnel for all needs, all Spin owners can feel comfortable promoting their Spin in the context of their individual pages. The get-fedora page is meant to serve those people, for example, who are likely to be confused by the array of options offered in Fedora, and simply need to get a start on their engagement with free and open source software. People who value choice more highly will be able to navigate using the "other options" block[2] to the spins site where they'll have a user experience that matches their expectations. Hopefully this explanation will give some perspective to the requirements underlying the website redesign, and show how our future site will be more attractive and functional for as many people as possible, whatever they value most from Fedora. * * * [1] http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/spins-directory.6.png [2] http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/getfpo-16.png -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From kwade at redhat.com Wed Aug 26 01:37:14 2009 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 18:37:14 -0700 Subject: Board meeting change In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090826013714.GJ4299@calliope.phig.org> On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 07:09:00PM -0400, Paul Frields wrote: > In last week's minutes, we set up our next meeting as a public IRC > meeting in #fedora-design: > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meeting:Board_meeting_2009-08-20 BTW, in case it's not clear, your link refers to the #Next_meeting anchor that shows: Proposed: 2009-08-27 UTC So, that is this Thursday at 1630 UTC. - Karsten -- Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener http://quaid.fedorapeople.org AD0E0C41 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From chitlesh.goorah at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 07:39:48 2009 From: chitlesh.goorah at gmail.com (Chitlesh GOORAH) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 09:39:48 +0200 Subject: Request for a *.fedoraproject.org subdomain In-Reply-To: References: <4a942adb.02015a0a.15e9.683e@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <50baabb30908260039p7ac08221p55a1fbf03cc1b81c@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 8:48 PM, Mike McGrath wrote: > The basics are listed here: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/ShowUs Hello there, I don't know to which extent progress has been made with respect to the website. However having seen the mockup Paul pointed http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/spins-electronicslab.svg I have used this mockup in the past (timeframe F-8 to F-10) to make FEL'S website. However recently with the fedora community pages based on moksha, I have updated FEL's entire layout as you can see here: http://chitlesh.fedorapeople.org/FEL/ Since now the FEL's current website is exactly like the initial grounds of Fedora community pages, I would recommend you guys not to start from scratch and use my layout for other spins. The work has already being done and only needs improvement. On the right hand side of http://chitlesh.fedorapeople.org/FEL/, you will find other sections. As for FEL's content, all user oriented contents are jotted on current url (except the work being done for F-12). So as FEL spin owner, I think the FEL's content can smooth wired to the new http://electroniclab.fedoraproject.org as long as the following items are met: * new website should be compatible with _any_ browser, (this is very useful for FEL's marketing) * new website has a professional layout, which does not tag FEL as a geek version. I would also wish an interface similar to http://chitlesh.fedorapeople.org/FEL#Publications, where FEL's contributors (those who signed CLA) can post their slides and a text+image. This helps a lot for FEL's marketing again, in a sense that it reflects global coverage and maturity. regards, Chitlesh From smooge at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 14:06:40 2009 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 08:06:40 -0600 Subject: Request for a *.fedoraproject.org subdomain In-Reply-To: <200908251118.08800.smparrish@gmail.com> References: <200908251118.08800.smparrish@gmail.com> Message-ID: <80d7e4090908260706l8e28498nb9412db9830eaf5f@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 9:18 AM, Steven M. Parrish wrote: > During today's KDE-SIG meeting it was decided that we would like to establish > a subdomain for our use. ?We are looking at kde.fedoraproject.org. ?This > domain would be used for marketing of the KDE Fedora Spin and to provide a > launching point for users wanting to download the spin. > > Would it also be possible to host the content on Fedora Infrastructure or do > we need to provide our own. > > Any questions please ask. > > Regards, Are you looking for a hostname address : kde.fedoraproject.org, or a subdomain: *.kde.fedoraproject.org >From the talk, I am guessing just a hostname. -- Stephen J Smoogen. Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp. Or what's a heaven for? -- Robert Browning From stickster at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 14:10:22 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 10:10:22 -0400 Subject: Board meeting change In-Reply-To: <20090826013714.GJ4299@calliope.phig.org> References: <20090826013714.GJ4299@calliope.phig.org> Message-ID: <20090826141022.GF3354@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 06:37:14PM -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 07:09:00PM -0400, Paul Frields wrote: > > In last week's minutes, we set up our next meeting as a public IRC > > meeting in #fedora-design: > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meeting:Board_meeting_2009-08-20 > > BTW, in case it's not clear, your link refers to the #Next_meeting > anchor that shows: > > Proposed: 2009-08-27 UTC > > So, that is this Thursday at 1630 UTC. That's correct -- thanks for the clarification Karsten. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From smparrish at gmail.com Wed Aug 26 14:27:00 2009 From: smparrish at gmail.com (Steven M. Parrish) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 10:27:00 -0400 Subject: Request for a *.fedoraproject.org subdomain In-Reply-To: <80d7e4090908260706l8e28498nb9412db9830eaf5f@mail.gmail.com> References: <200908251118.08800.smparrish@gmail.com> <80d7e4090908260706l8e28498nb9412db9830eaf5f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200908261027.01894.smparrish@gmail.com> > On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 9:18 AM, Steven M. Parrish wrote: > > During today's KDE-SIG meeting it was decided that we would like to > > establish a subdomain for our use. We are looking at > > kde.fedoraproject.org. This domain would be used for marketing of the > > KDE Fedora Spin and to provide a launching point for users wanting to > > download the spin. > > > > Would it also be possible to host the content on Fedora Infrastructure or > > do we need to provide our own. > > > > Any questions please ask. > > > > Regards, > > Are you looking for a hostname address : kde.fedoraproject.org, > > or a subdomain: *.kde.fedoraproject.org > > From the talk, I am guessing just a hostname. Yes just a hostname kde.fedoraproject.org Steven ===================================================== Steven M. Parrish ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- gpg fingerprint: 4B6C 8357 059E B7ED 8095 0FD6 1F4B EDA0 A9A6 13C0 http://tuxbrewr.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: SMParrish @ #fedora-kde, #fedora-devel, #fedora-olpc, #sugar From stickster at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 12:48:03 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul Frields) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 08:48:03 -0400 Subject: Board meeting reminder Message-ID: Today's Board meeting will be held on IRC Freenode #fedora-design at 1630 UTC. We'll be going over the current round of web page mockups so Mairin Duffy can incorporate feedback into the final designs. Interested community members are invited to attend. Paul From christoph.wickert at googlemail.com Thu Aug 27 14:25:17 2009 From: christoph.wickert at googlemail.com (Christoph Wickert) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 16:25:17 +0200 Subject: The current Trademark License Agreement is unacceptable Message-ID: <1251383117.2923.85.camel@localhost> Sorry for the lurid subject, but at least I have everybody's attention now. ;) I'm working together with people from some Fedora centric sites at the moment. So far none was asked to sign the TLA [1] but we are planing a redesign which makes use of the Fedora logo. So now it would be the right time to put the relationship to the Fedora Project onto a solid base, which means the owners should sign the TLA. However I cannot advocate this to anybody currently. There are two reasons that make me think that nobody should sign the TLA in it's current version: ?3 and ?7. > 3. Termination: Licensor or Licensee may (without prejudice to any > other right or remedy) terminate this Agreement (a) for any reason at > any time upon thirty (30) days prior notice in writing to the other > party; (b) at any time upon notice in writing to the other party if > the other party is in material breach of any obligation hereunder and > does not cure such breach within seven (7) days of being requested in > writing to do so; or (c) with no notice where the Domain Name(s), Web > Pages, or Licensee's use of the Trademarks are the subject of a legal > claim. The right to use the Licensor's Trademarks will cease > immediately upon the termination or expiration of this Agreement and > Licensee must immediately discontinue use of the Licensor's > Trademarks. On termination or expiration of the License, the Licensee > agrees that the ownership of the Domain Name(s) automatically > transfers to Licensor and Licensee will take all steps necessary, > including working with domain name registrars and registries as > necessary, to ensure that the legal ownership and control of the > Domain Name(s) is expeditiously transferred to Licensor or a party of > its choosing. Licensee agrees to remove any Web Pages content > immediately if in Licensor's sole discretion such removal is > warranted. So even if the licensee follows all the terms of the TLA and the logo usage guidelines, Red Hat can terminate the agreement for (a) no reason and (c) even without notice at any time. If they do, they automatically become owner of the licensees domain. This is a legal way of hijacking the domain with all it's contents, all it's reputation and all the work that was put into it. This just isn't fair. I'm not even sure if the licensee is allowed to transfer the domain and it's content to Red Hat: Think of a community website with private data of the users. Here in Germany we have very strict law for data privacy protection. If the community members did not explicitly agree to giving their personal data to Red Hat or any entity outside of Germany, the licensee must not give this data to the licensor. If he does, he also violates the law. He is caught between the devil and the deep blue sea. The second issue is the indemnification: > 7. Indemnification: The Licensee will indemnify and hold harmless the > Licensor and its directors, officers, employees and agents > (collectively, the ?Indemnitees?) from and against any and all > damages, injuries, liabilities, costs and expenses, including but not > restricted to actual legal fees and costs charged to any of the > Indemnitees by their lawyers, that may be incurred by any of the > Indemnitees or claimed by any third parties against any of the > Indemnitees in connection with any wares, services or business of the > Licensee, any negligent or wrongful conduct of the Licensee, and any > breach of this Agreement by the Licensee or by any person who is > related to or affiliated with the Licensee. The foregoing > notwithstanding, Licensor will indemnify, defend and hold Licensee > harmless from any claim that the Licensee's use of the Trademarks > consistent with the terms of this agreement is an infringement of a > third party's trademark in those countries where Licensor has > registered the accused trademark. We all know how ridiculous high indemnifications under American law are, so no community person effectively can bear this risk. I agree there must be a form of indemnification, but it should be limited to a certain amount, otherwise a person could be bankrupt or the rest of his life even if he didn't damage Red Hat or Fedora in any way. So why is the TLA a adhesion contract? Please don't tell me that Red Hat as an American company needs to be that restrictive in order to protect their trademarks. I recently reviewed the Nimbus theme from OpenSolaris (#488174) and Rahul argued that we must not ship the OpenSolaris logo. I looked at their trademark FAQ [2] and their trademark policy [3] and I wasn't able to find anything that prevents us from shipping their logo. They have a "fair use" guideline. You can basically do whatever you want, as long as you don't damage their trademark on purpose and as long as it's non commercial. Why can Sun be way more liberal than Red Hat although both are American companies? I really regret saying that currently I cannot recommend signing the TLA to anybody. It's a shame. Regards, Christoph [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Trademark_license_agreement [2] http://opensolaris.org/os/about/faq/trademark_faq/ [3] http://www.opensolaris.org/os/trademark/ From stickster at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 19:22:12 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 15:22:12 -0400 Subject: The current Trademark License Agreement is unacceptable In-Reply-To: <1251383117.2923.85.camel@localhost> References: <1251383117.2923.85.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20090827192212.GA4000@localhost.localdomain> Hi Christoph, Thanks for writing your thoughts about the trademark license agreement. Hopefully the following will clarify some of the legal language on which you've commented. Of course, I'm not a lawyer, nor your lawyer, and this isn't legal advice, but it is my best understanding of the agreement, which I've discussed many times with actual, experienced Red Hat attorneys. On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 04:25:17PM +0200, Christoph Wickert wrote: > There are two reasons that make me think that nobody should sign the > TLA in it's current version: ?3 and ?7. > >> 3. Termination: Licensor or Licensee may (without prejudice to any >> other right or remedy) terminate this Agreement (a) for any reason >> at any time upon thirty (30) days prior notice in writing to the >> other party; (b) at any time upon notice in writing to the other >> party if the other party is in material breach of any obligation >> hereunder and does not cure such breach within seven (7) days of >> being requested in writing to do so; or (c) with no notice where >> the Domain Name(s), Web Pages, or Licensee's use of the Trademarks >> are the subject of a legal claim. The right to use the Licensor's >> Trademarks will cease immediately upon the termination or >> expiration of this Agreement and Licensee must immediately >> discontinue use of the Licensor's Trademarks. On termination or >> expiration of the License, the Licensee agrees that the ownership >> of the Domain Name(s) automatically transfers to Licensor and >> Licensee will take all steps necessary, including working with >> domain name registrars and registries as necessary, to ensure that >> the legal ownership and control of the Domain Name(s) is >> expeditiously transferred to Licensor or a party of its >> choosing. Licensee agrees to remove any Web Pages content >> immediately if in Licensor's sole discretion such removal is >> warranted. >> > So even if the licensee follows all the terms of the TLA and the > logo usage guidelines, Red Hat can terminate the agreement for (a) > no reason and (c) even without notice at any time. If they do, they > automatically become owner of the licensees domain. This is a legal > way of hijacking the domain with all it's contents, all it's > reputation and all the work that was put into it. This just isn't > fair. > > I'm not even sure if the licensee is allowed to transfer the domain > and it's content to Red Hat: Think of a community website with > private data of the users. Here in Germany we have very strict law > for data privacy protection. If the community members did not > explicitly agree to giving their personal data to Red Hat or any > entity outside of Germany, the licensee must not give this data to > the licensor. If he does, he also violates the law. He is caught > between the devil and the deep blue sea. Section 3 only contemplates a transfer of the domain name. There's no implication for the content of the website (data), which remains the property of the previous owner. You can transfer a domain name without transferring any data or content, but I suspect you knew that already. ;-) But to address your main objection, regarding the ability to terminate the agreement. Note that this ability is shared by both Red Hat and the domain owner. Red Hat has an interest in protecting the trademarks it owns, and in fact by law *must* protect them (not just in the US) to retain their value. Without this section, it would be possible for a domain owner to unilaterally transfer or sell the domain to any third-party, who could then use the trademark in evil ways. This section effectively gives Red Hat a remedy in case someone goes completely crazy, and decides to sell their domain to, for example, "The Global Anti-Fedora Terror Brigade." Of course, neither Red Hat nor I think this would happen. Community members have no reason to turn over their domains to evil people. But legal agreements are not written from the perspective of what we assume. They must be written from the perspective of mitigating risks. Therefore this language has been developed over many years under the law, and has the unfortunate side-effect of looking very ugly. Less ugly language, customized by Red Hat, would probably not provide the necessary safeguards under the law, so it would be useless. This language is there because a trademark owner must have the right to protect their identity in a contract. (If this contract involved money, there probably wouldn't be a clause for termination for convenience, but we're in a different situation here.) But Red Hat isn't interested in using this section to unfairly deprive community members of the ability to create community web sites. If that was the case, there'd be no reason to create an agreement in the first place. In fact, there'd have been no reason to update our trademark guidelines at all to allow domain name use by the community! The agreement gives Red Hat a way to be very liberal in permitting community members to use the Fedora trademarks on personally owned sites to help spread Fedora effectively worldwide. Nevertheless, I've been talking with Red Hat Legal over a number of months about this section. Although this is very much standard language for a trademark owner to have, Red Hat doesn't want community members to get the mistaken impression that they want to swoop in and seize domains willy-nilly. Furthermore, there are far too many different possible cases to be able to effectively separate the trademark license issue from the domain ownership issue in a single agreement. So our legal counsel is planning to drop the termination for convenience clause, 3(a). It would be possible -- and counsel is willing -- to add some additional language stating that Red Hat trusts the community to do the right thing, and doesn't want to pre-emptively take over their domains. But since that wouldn't have any legal effect, I'm not sure anyone really cares whether it's there. In your opinion, Christoph, would that make a big difference? By the way, in the case where a domain owner wants to transfer or sell the domain to someone, Red Hat would work with the first domain owner to put a license agreement in place with the new owner. > The second issue is the indemnification: > >> 7. Indemnification: The Licensee will indemnify and hold harmless >> the Licensor and its directors, officers, employees and agents >> (collectively, the ?Indemnitees?) from and against any and all >> damages, injuries, liabilities, costs and expenses, including but >> not restricted to actual legal fees and costs charged to any of the >> Indemnitees by their lawyers, that may be incurred by any of the >> Indemnitees or claimed by any third parties against any of the >> Indemnitees in connection with any wares, services or business of >> the Licensee, any negligent or wrongful conduct of the Licensee, >> and any breach of this Agreement by the Licensee or by any person >> who is related to or affiliated with the Licensee. The foregoing >> notwithstanding, Licensor will indemnify, defend and hold Licensee >> harmless from any claim that the Licensee's use of the Trademarks >> consistent with the terms of this agreement is an infringement of a >> third party's trademark in those countries where Licensor has >> registered the accused trademark. >> > We all know how ridiculous high indemnifications under American law > are, so no community person effectively can bear this risk. I agree > there must be a form of indemnification, but it should be limited to > a certain amount, otherwise a person could be bankrupt or the rest > of his life even if he didn't damage Red Hat or Fedora in any way. Now, as for Section 7, and your questions about indemnification. Again, this is fairly standard language in US law. The meaning of this clause is that if you use the Fedora trademarks outside of what the agreement and our guidelines allow, or if you advertise or provide some sort of service or other business in connection with the Fedora trademarks, and someone sues you over that, Red Hat can't be held liable. Let's say you had a business where you fixed people's Fedora systems for a fee. If you did a bad job, and a customer sued you, this clause keeps Red Hat from being dragged into it just because you happen to use the Fedora trademarks to advertise your business. This doesn't mean you would have to pay a big Red Hat Legal bill to handle Red Hat's defense. What typically happens is that the lawyer defending you would simply handle everything at once, at no extra cost. This makes sense, because it's not fair to Red Hat to have to assume liability for everything you do just because they happen to have given you a license to use Fedora trademarks for specific purposes like promoting Fedora. By the same token, if you're simply using the trademarks as provided in the agreement, and someone sues you over, say, a trademark violation, Red Hat would indemnify you. Red Hat has a huge interest in making sure that our community members are protected from evil people who might try to stop them from promoting Fedora, so that makes sense too. > So why is the TLA a adhesion contract? Please don't tell me that Red > Hat as an American company needs to be that restrictive in order to > protect their trademarks. I recently reviewed the Nimbus theme from > OpenSolaris (#488174) and Rahul argued that we must not ship the > OpenSolaris logo. I looked at their trademark FAQ [2] and their > trademark policy [3] and I wasn't able to find anything that > prevents us from shipping their logo. They have a "fair use" > guideline. You can basically do whatever you want, as long as you > don't damage their trademark on purpose and as long as it's non > commercial. Why can Sun be way more liberal than Red Hat although > both are American companies? Finally, a comment on your characterization of the OpenSolaris trademark guidelines, which aren't nearly as liberal as you seem to think. http://www.opensolaris.org/os/trademark/ First, note their guidelines say: "Your proposed use of an OpenSolaris Trademark will often be "fair use" or permitted by Sun if:..." They didn't say "are fair use and permitted," they say "will often be fair use or permitted." That's very precise language meaning they aren't committing 100% to *anything* you see in those guidelines. That's very different from our guidelines in Fedora where we specifically allow a broad range of usage without any wishy-washiness or dithering. Next, note their guidelines include a *possible* permission if "there is no commercial intent behind or impact from the use." This is a complete escape hatch, because Sun can argue at any time that just about *ANY* use of the OpenSolaris trademark includes a commercial impact. Looking over the rest of the terms, and the mini-FAQ that precedes them, I don't see any substantial differences with the kind of use cases they claim to allow, except for the fact that, again, we clear those usages categorically in our guidelines. * * * Now, having said all that, our Legal folks are very supportive of community building, and I'm sure they would welcome a dialogue about this subject. We might want to take that dialogue to the fedora-legal-list where it probably belongs, but I'm happy to facilitate it if it helps people better understand this agreement. I've learned a lot about this subject (but still only know a tiny fraction of what our lawyers do) over the past 18 months, and it's been enough to give me a very good appreciation for their hard work, and dedication to both a strong Fedora brand and a strong community. Paul From pchestek at redhat.com Thu Aug 27 19:40:36 2009 From: pchestek at redhat.com (Pamela Chestek) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 15:40:36 -0400 Subject: The current Trademark License Agreement is unacceptable In-Reply-To: <20090827192212.GA4000@localhost.localdomain> References: <1251383117.2923.85.camel@localhost> <20090827192212.GA4000@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4A96E134.7000001@redhat.com> Okay, here we go. You know, I just got a whole sweepstakes fiasco straightened out yesterday. I needed something to do with my newly found free time. ;-) Paul W. Frields wrote on 08/27/2009 03:22 PM: > Hi Christoph, > > Thanks for writing your thoughts about the trademark license > agreement. Hopefully the following will clarify some of the legal > language on which you've commented. Of course, I'm not a lawyer, nor > your lawyer, and this isn't legal advice, but it is my best > understanding of the agreement, which I've discussed many times with > actual, experienced Red Hat attorneys. > > From fedora at ml.shredzone.de Thu Aug 27 21:28:45 2009 From: fedora at ml.shredzone.de (Richard Koerber) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 23:28:45 +0200 Subject: The current Trademark License Agreement is unacceptable In-Reply-To: <20090827192212.GA4000@localhost.localdomain> References: <1251383117.2923.85.camel@localhost> <20090827192212.GA4000@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4A96FA8D.8000306@ml.shredzone.de> Hi Paul! Thank you for your answer. Like Christoph, I am also concerned about signing the TLA for my German Fedora web site. I will try to explain my concerns, even though it will be difficult for me, since the topic is rather complex and English isn't my native language. > Section 3 only contemplates a transfer of the domain name. There's no > implication for the content of the website (data), which remains the > property of the previous owner. You can transfer a domain name > without transferring any data or content, but I suspect you knew that > already. ;-) I do not completely agree. The TLA also says: "The right to use the Licensor's Trademarks will cease immediately upon the termination or expiration of this Agreement and Licensee must immediately discontinue use of the Licensor's Trademarks." If I understand it correctly, it means that after termination, I would not only have to give away the domain, but I would also have to stop using the word "Fedora" at all. This means that with terminating the TLA, it would not only mean that I would lose the domain, but it would also render the content completely worthless, because I would not be allowed to publish it any more. I also see some issues with Section 4 ("Permitted Use"), especially with the Trademark guidelines. If I understood them correctly, I would be required to do the following: 1) I would have to use trademark symbols "for the first instance" of "Fedora" on my site. Well, I just cannot do that! I could try for my own content, even though I am sure I would forget some. Anyhow the site also allows visitors to post comments, and I cannot make sure that those commentors also use the proper trademark symbols. And what is the "first instance" anyways? Now when I take the TLA literally, then Red Hat would be allowed to terminate the TLA immediately if I just forgot the trademark symbol on a very single "first instance" of "Fedora". On my site's imprint, it is stated that trademarks are used without the explicit use of trademark symbols, and the lack of a symbol does not necessarily mean that there is no trademark existing. This is allright according to German law. I am afraid that I can be sued for trademark violation when I start to use the symbols on some trademarks, but do not on others. (I hope you get the picture.) 2) I would be required to use the Fedora "Spinfinity" logo. When I started that site, I decided to use a self made logo. I do not use the Spinfinity logo at all (except of some Fedora screenshots maybe). Of course I want to keep it that way. 3) I would also be required to add links and a disclaimer ("This site is not affiliated with...") in English language, which is rather nonsense on a German web site. After all, when I see the TLA and the Trademark guidelines, I see a LOT of "must do" and "must not do" rules. I cannot assess all the legal implications of the TLA. But I see that breaking one single rule (even if unintentionally or by a commentor's post) would allow Red Hat to immediately terminate the TLA, which would mean that I would lose the domain, and I also would not be allowed to publish the content any more. Frankly, I would rather drop the domain or close down the entire site, before I would sign the TLA. I hope that I could explain my concerns in an understandable way. -- Richard From smooge at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 21:39:41 2009 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 15:39:41 -0600 Subject: The current Trademark License Agreement is unacceptable In-Reply-To: <4A96FA8D.8000306@ml.shredzone.de> References: <1251383117.2923.85.camel@localhost> <20090827192212.GA4000@localhost.localdomain> <4A96FA8D.8000306@ml.shredzone.de> Message-ID: <80d7e4090908271439h40d2b6f8teba0e1370c9dd880@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 3:28 PM, Richard Koerber wrote: > Hi Paul! > > Thank you for your answer. Like Christoph, I am also concerned about signing > the TLA for my German Fedora web site. I will try to explain my concerns, even > though it will be difficult for me, since the topic is rather complex and > English isn't my native language. > >> Section 3 only contemplates a transfer of the domain name. ?There's no >> implication for the content of the website (data), which remains the >> property of the previous owner. ?You can transfer a domain name >> without transferring any data or content, but I suspect you knew that >> already. ;-) > > I do not completely agree. The TLA also says: "The right to use the Licensor's > Trademarks will cease immediately upon the termination or expiration of this > Agreement and Licensee must immediately discontinue use of the Licensor's > Trademarks." > > If I understand it correctly, it means that after termination, I would not > only have to give away the domain, but I would also have to stop using the > word "Fedora" at all. As someone told me long ago, when you start having ideas about absolutes in law, go see a lawyer. They are the only one who are qualified to properly parse that for you. As in where the word Fedora is used in context or not. "I am putting the Fedora on my head... " probably not in context of trademark. "I am using Fedora on my computer." Possibly in context but is it being used in a way that infringes? I am using IamFedoraIn.de as my domain and how I make money by representing myself as Fedora in Germany... probably in context. In all the case, you need a lawyer to properly parse this for your case. That is the problem with the real world... its more complicated that figuring out why your ruby script is not working on your Ruby->Python->Forth->Hardware emulated system. -- Stephen J Smoogen. Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp. Or what's a heaven for? -- Robert Browning From robert at fedoraproject.org Thu Aug 27 22:08:07 2009 From: robert at fedoraproject.org (Robert Scheck) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 00:08:07 +0200 Subject: The current Trademark License Agreement is unacceptable In-Reply-To: <4A96FA8D.8000306@ml.shredzone.de> References: <1251383117.2923.85.camel@localhost> <20090827192212.GA4000@localhost.localdomain> <4A96FA8D.8000306@ml.shredzone.de> Message-ID: <20090827220807.GA551@hurricane.linuxnetz.de> On Thu, 27 Aug 2009, Richard Koerber wrote: > Frankly, I would rather drop the domain or close down the entire site, > before I would sign the TLA. +1 I completely agree with you here for the current adhesion contract, that I got sent in March 2009 by Paul. I didn't sign the contract for the obvious reasons (and because of the lack of a missing qualified translation). I am not a lawyer, but for Germany the only legal way - at least as far as I got told - seems to be, if you want right now to protect your Fedora Project related domain names against Red Hat as the Fedora trademark owner, shut the domains down to avoid any relationship to the Fedora Project and add a disclamer if there was Fedora Project related usage in the past. As long as there's no relationship to the trademark, a trademark owner can't enforce the "right" to get the domain name, especially if it's in private use - so far a German court decision. Remember, I am not a lawyer. Since beginning of this issue for me in March, I got aware, that not all domain owners having Fedora Project related domains with the name "fedora" in it, have been asked by Paul and/or Red Hat legal to sign that trademark contract. Can I assume, that there's only an interest in the "cool" domain names? I'm sorry, but either all are asked or nobody is asked... Greetings, Robert -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tcallawa at redhat.com Thu Aug 27 22:11:01 2009 From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom "spot" Callaway) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 18:11:01 -0400 Subject: The current Trademark License Agreement is unacceptable In-Reply-To: <20090827220807.GA551@hurricane.linuxnetz.de> References: <1251383117.2923.85.camel@localhost> <20090827192212.GA4000@localhost.localdomain> <4A96FA8D.8000306@ml.shredzone.de> <20090827220807.GA551@hurricane.linuxnetz.de> Message-ID: <4A970475.4040304@redhat.com> On 08/27/2009 06:08 PM, Robert Scheck wrote: > Can I assume, that there's only an interest in the "cool" domain > names? In America, there is a saying: When you assume, you make an ass out of you and me. Don't make that assumption. Any sites using the Fedora trademarks not asked to sign the trademark agreement are accidental, not intentional, omissions. ~spot From christoph.wickert at googlemail.com Thu Aug 27 22:24:26 2009 From: christoph.wickert at googlemail.com (Christoph Wickert) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 00:24:26 +0200 Subject: The current Trademark License Agreement is unacceptable In-Reply-To: <80d7e4090908271439h40d2b6f8teba0e1370c9dd880@mail.gmail.com> References: <1251383117.2923.85.camel@localhost> <20090827192212.GA4000@localhost.localdomain> <4A96FA8D.8000306@ml.shredzone.de> <80d7e4090908271439h40d2b6f8teba0e1370c9dd880@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1251411866.2923.159.camel@localhost> Am Donnerstag, den 27.08.2009, 15:39 -0600 schrieb Stephen John Smoogen: > On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 3:28 PM, Richard Koerber wrote: > > Hi Paul! > > > > Thank you for your answer. Like Christoph, I am also concerned about signing > > the TLA for my German Fedora web site. I will try to explain my concerns, even > > though it will be difficult for me, since the topic is rather complex and > > English isn't my native language. > > > >> Section 3 only contemplates a transfer of the domain name. There's no > >> implication for the content of the website (data), which remains the > >> property of the previous owner. You can transfer a domain name > >> without transferring any data or content, but I suspect you knew that > >> already. ;-) > > > > I do not completely agree. The TLA also says: "The right to use the Licensor's > > Trademarks will cease immediately upon the termination or expiration of this > > Agreement and Licensee must immediately discontinue use of the Licensor's > > Trademarks." > > > > If I understand it correctly, it means that after termination, I would not > > only have to give away the domain, but I would also have to stop using the > > word "Fedora" at all. > > As someone told me long ago, when you start having ideas about > absolutes in law, go see a lawyer. They are the only one who are > qualified to properly parse that for you. The problem is: Who can afford a lawyer? This is American trade mark law, so you not only need a common lawyer but an expert for intellectual property rights. Is Red Hat really expecting their community members to pay for a lawyer if they want to contribute? That would be ridiculous. Regards, Christoph P.S.: Bug thanks to Paul for his explanations, although I cannot subscribe to his POV. I will reply tomorrow, now I'm too sleepy. From deadbabylon at googlemail.com Thu Aug 27 22:35:27 2009 From: deadbabylon at googlemail.com (Sebastian Vahl) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 00:35:27 +0200 Subject: The current Trademark License Agreement is unacceptable In-Reply-To: <4A970475.4040304@redhat.com> References: <1251383117.2923.85.camel@localhost> <20090827220807.GA551@hurricane.linuxnetz.de> <4A970475.4040304@redhat.com> Message-ID: <200908280035.27929.deadbabylon@googlemail.com> Am Freitag 28 August 2009 schrieb Tom "spot" Callaway: > On 08/27/2009 06:08 PM, Robert Scheck wrote: > > Can I assume, that there's only an interest in the "cool" domain > > names? > > In America, there is a saying: > > When you assume, you make an ass out of you and me. > > Don't make that assumption. Any sites using the Fedora trademarks not > asked to sign the trademark agreement are accidental, not intentional, > omissions. But Robert is the only domain holder in the german community to whom the TLA was send. But please don't intend to send it to the remaining ones. I'm in contact with all of them and sending the TLA at this time without further discussion and without changes being made will likely force them to shut down their domains (so the conclusion at this point). And so a main part of the german community will be extinguished... Sebastian -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 22:48:37 2009 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 14:48:37 -0800 Subject: The current Trademark License Agreement is unacceptable In-Reply-To: <1251411866.2923.159.camel@localhost> References: <1251383117.2923.85.camel@localhost> <20090827192212.GA4000@localhost.localdomain> <4A96FA8D.8000306@ml.shredzone.de> <80d7e4090908271439h40d2b6f8teba0e1370c9dd880@mail.gmail.com> <1251411866.2923.159.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <604aa7910908271548r17edae2fkad40e748fa2ea75c@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 2:24 PM, Christoph Wickert wrote: > The problem is: Who can afford a lawyer? This is American trade mark > law, so you not only need a common lawyer but an expert for intellectual > property rights. Is Red Hat really expecting their community members to > pay for a lawyer if they want to contribute? That would be ridiculous. More ridiculous than the level of mistrust over the stated intention to protect the trademarks against potential misuse? Let me put it this way. Would you prefer that the Fedora brand be unprotected by trademarks so that anyone could use them for any purpose whatsoever even if they were deliberately attempting to cause confusion in the market? Either you believe the Fedora brand is worthy of protection or you do not. I happen to think its worthy of protection against malicious use. I don't want a Microsoft or Apple shill being able to put up misinformation sites that use the Fedora trademarks. In order to prevent that, trademark law must be invoked and all trademark usage must be sanctioned. I also do not believe that you can satisfactorily write down a succinct definition of all possible misuse that a licensee may engage in that would cause confusion in the market. What is bad faith use of the mark? Noone will agree on a bright line boundary. The language has to be loose in order to protect the marks against all potential misuse. The language is not there as a trap to spring on people acting in good faith. If that's how you feel then there's already a HUGE gap in trust which I don't see how can be filled in. If you don't trust Red Hat as the mark holder to do the right thing and to only exercise the legal power to terminate a license when a license holder is misusing the mark..then I'm not sure what to tell you as I don't think a satisfactory compromise could be reached that did not require scrutiny by legal representation for all parties..something you don't want to do. If you don't trust Red Hat to do the right thing..you'll be contacting a lawyer if there was ever a dispute.. so I don't understand the reluctance now. -jef"Would you feel any better if Red Hat signed over the marks to me personally?"spaleta From luis.villa at gmail.com Thu Aug 27 23:00:16 2009 From: luis.villa at gmail.com (Luis Villa) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 19:00:16 -0400 Subject: The current Trademark License Agreement is unacceptable In-Reply-To: <200908280035.27929.deadbabylon@googlemail.com> References: <1251383117.2923.85.camel@localhost> <20090827220807.GA551@hurricane.linuxnetz.de> <4A970475.4040304@redhat.com> <200908280035.27929.deadbabylon@googlemail.com> Message-ID: <2cb10c440908271600n5032199ayc588bcf50ec2fb2a@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 6:35 PM, Sebastian Vahl wrote: > Am Freitag 28 August 2009 schrieb Tom "spot" Callaway: >> On 08/27/2009 06:08 PM, Robert Scheck wrote: >> > Can I assume, that there's only an interest in the "cool" domain >> > names? >> >> In America, there is a saying: >> >> When you assume, you make an ass out of you and me. >> >> Don't make that assumption. Any sites using the Fedora trademarks not >> asked to sign the trademark agreement are accidental, not intentional, >> omissions. > > But Robert is the only domain holder in the german community to whom the TLA > was send. > But please don't intend to send it to the remaining ones. I'm in contact with > all of them and sending the TLA at this time without further discussion and > without changes being made will likely force them to shut down their domains > (so the conclusion at this point). And so a main part of the german community > will be extinguished... [I am not a lawyer, yet; even if I were a lawyer I'm not your lawyer. So take with a grain of salt.] Look, I'm not a big fan of this trademark agreement; I think it is probably overkill and certainly reflects a centralized view of trademark that is harmful to how we operate as a peer production community. If I had my way Fedora (and Mozilla, etc., etc.) would radically reinvent how they license their marks. But that is a subject for another day, because it is complex and will require many months or years of lawyering to get completely right, and that is even if other lawyers agreed with me- which most don't! In the meantime, it is silly to talk about shutting down your domain or 'extinguishing community' because of this agreement. If you're using the Fedora mark in a domain name, Red Hat/Fedora can already take it from you via ICANN. They're virtually guaranteed to win that case. If they want, they can almost certainly go far beyond that, using the rest of trademark law to shut down your website, not just take the domain. Bottom line: even if you never sign the agreement- even if the agreement had never been written- you'd still be at their mercy when using the mark. All that unpleasantness is still there. The agreement does not make that worse, and may well in some respects make it better. So by all means work with Red Hat to simplify, clarify, etc. But please don't make the agreement out to be a big deal when it really isn't. It changes very little. Luis From robert at fedoraproject.org Fri Aug 28 00:21:02 2009 From: robert at fedoraproject.org (Robert Scheck) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 02:21:02 +0200 Subject: The current Trademark License Agreement is unacceptable In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440908271600n5032199ayc588bcf50ec2fb2a@mail.gmail.com> References: <1251383117.2923.85.camel@localhost> <20090827220807.GA551@hurricane.linuxnetz.de> <4A970475.4040304@redhat.com> <200908280035.27929.deadbabylon@googlemail.com> <2cb10c440908271600n5032199ayc588bcf50ec2fb2a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090828002102.GA11553@hurricane.linuxnetz.de> On Thu, 27 Aug 2009, Luis Villa wrote: > In the meantime, it is silly to talk about shutting down your domain > or 'extinguishing community' because of this agreement. If you're > using the Fedora mark in a domain name, Red Hat/Fedora can already > take it from you via ICANN. They're virtually guaranteed to win that > case. Well, you might be correct for the US, the generic Top Level Domains (gTLDs) and maybe some international Top Level Domains (ccTLDs), but luckily the world is a bit more complicated. ICANN, that means you are talking about the UDRP (Uniform Domain-Name Dispute-Resolution Policy) [1]. Not all TLD registries use UDRP at all, so there's a list at ICANN [2] for approved providers. When now looking explicitly to *.de where according to IANA (doing as a kind of department of ICANN the technical business for them) the DENIC eG is responsible [3], there are interesting FAQs at the DENIC eG website. First is "Why is there no Dispute Resolution Procedure (like ICANN's UDRP) at DENIC?" [4], second is "What can I do if I believe that I have a better right to a domain than its current holder?" [5] and the third is "DISPUTE Entries" [6]. If you don't want to read these FAQs, the short form is, that you have to win your suit against the current domain name owner in Germany at a German court, otherwise DENIC eG won't give you the defendant domain name. Support by DENIC eG is only offered via a "DISPUTE" to avoid changes at the given domain name owner (in front or during the lawsuit). And as already explained before [7], a trademark (Fedora is a registered trademark in the European Union, but not in Germany) or a company name, is not necessarily a reason to win a suit at a German court [8]. A proof that things can work without ICANN UDRP is e.g. the domain name fahrplan.de [9]. Did I mention, that it could make bad press, if Red Hat suits a longtime Fedora Contributor and owner of a German domain name related to the Fedora Project just in order to get and hold that Fedora Project related German domain name? Conclusion: If I ever find a plaint by Red Hat regarding a Fedora Project related German domain name in my postbox, two of our "Fedora f"s are a lie. References ---------- [1] http://www.icann.org/en/udrp/udrp-policy-24oct99.htm [2] http://www.icann.org/en/dndr/udrp/approved-providers.htm [3] http://www.iana.org/domains/root/db/de.html [4] http://www.denic.de/en/faq-single/450/1/248.html (English) http://www.denic.de/faq-single/450/1/248.html (German) [5] http://www.denic.de/en/faq-single/373/248.html (English) http://www.denic.de/faq-single/373/248.html (German) [6] http://www.denic.de/en/domains/dispute.html (English) http://www.denic.de/domains/dispute.html (German) [7] http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2009-August/msg00162.html [8] BGH, Urt. v. 11. April 2002 - I ZR 317/99 - OLG Muenchen - LG Muenchen I [9] http://www.heise.de/newsticker/data/ad-02.12.99-001/ (German) Greetings, Robert -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: not available URL: From matt at domsch.com Fri Aug 28 01:53:50 2009 From: matt at domsch.com (Matt Domsch) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 20:53:50 -0500 Subject: The current Trademark License Agreement is unacceptable In-Reply-To: <20090828002102.GA11553@hurricane.linuxnetz.de> References: <1251383117.2923.85.camel@localhost> <20090827220807.GA551@hurricane.linuxnetz.de> <4A970475.4040304@redhat.com> <200908280035.27929.deadbabylon@googlemail.com> <2cb10c440908271600n5032199ayc588bcf50ec2fb2a@mail.gmail.com> <20090828002102.GA11553@hurricane.linuxnetz.de> Message-ID: <20090828015349.GA5148@domsch.com> On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 02:21:02AM +0200, Robert Scheck wrote: > On Thu, 27 Aug 2009, Luis Villa wrote: > > In the meantime, it is silly to talk about shutting down your domain > > or 'extinguishing community' because of this agreement. If you're > > using the Fedora mark in a domain name, Red Hat/Fedora can already > > take it from you via ICANN. They're virtually guaranteed to win that > > case. > > > Did I mention, that it could make bad press, if Red Hat suits a longtime > Fedora Contributor and owner of a German domain name related to the Fedora > Project just in order to get and hold that Fedora Project related German > domain name? no doubt. If we were to the point where Red Hat was suing contributors who are acting in good faith, then I'd argue that the whole project had failed. I don't think "bad press" is enough concern to prevent such a suit - if there was a serious violation of "good faith" that warranted action, "bad press" would be the least of the worries. > Conclusion: If I ever find a plaint by Red Hat regarding a Fedora Project > related German domain name in my postbox, two of our "Fedora f"s are a lie. presumably "freedom" and "friends". Clearly the "friends" part would be gone, but "freedom" does not mean "I can do whatever I want". With freedom comes responsibility. In this case, that responsibility (for all parties involved) includes following trademark law. This whole thing is not about making enemies of contributors, or believing any of our contributors are acting in bad faith. The trademark license is all about protecting the project from people (presumably _not_ contributors) who act in bad faith and against the welfare of the Project, and having a remedy. One could argue that a "bad faith" actor would likely never have signed the TLA in the first place; As Luis points out, nothing prevents the trademark owner from going after them. The converse is that the trademark agreement then _protects_ the domain owner who acts in good faith (as Paul notes, with section 3a being removed). From christoph.wickert at googlemail.com Fri Aug 28 07:42:15 2009 From: christoph.wickert at googlemail.com (Christoph Wickert) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 09:42:15 +0200 Subject: The current Trademark License Agreement is unacceptable In-Reply-To: <604aa7910908271548r17edae2fkad40e748fa2ea75c@mail.gmail.com> References: <1251383117.2923.85.camel@localhost> <20090827192212.GA4000@localhost.localdomain> <4A96FA8D.8000306@ml.shredzone.de> <80d7e4090908271439h40d2b6f8teba0e1370c9dd880@mail.gmail.com> <1251411866.2923.159.camel@localhost> <604aa7910908271548r17edae2fkad40e748fa2ea75c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1251445335.2746.63.camel@localhost> Am Donnerstag, den 27.08.2009, 14:48 -0800 schrieb Jeff Spaleta: > On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 2:24 PM, Christoph > Wickert wrote: > > The problem is: Who can afford a lawyer? This is American trade mark > > law, so you not only need a common lawyer but an expert for intellectual > > property rights. Is Red Hat really expecting their community members to > > pay for a lawyer if they want to contribute? That would be ridiculous. > > More ridiculous than the level of mistrust over the stated intention > to protect the trademarks against potential misuse? I find the mistrust understandable if * someone wants me to sign a contract that I cannot fully understand * they refuse to provide a translation that I can understand * there are still questions not answered after half a year. > Let me put it this way. Would you prefer that the Fedora brand be > unprotected by trademarks so that anyone could use them for any > purpose whatsoever even if they were deliberately attempting to cause > confusion in the market? No, but I think the current attempt to protect is counterproductive. We all know that intentions are good (TM), so let's not look at the intentions but at the results: Robert is the owner of the domain fedora.de. He used it to mirror the German parts of fedoraproject.org. Now with the TLA he can no longer do this because the webpages at fp.o do not follow the standards set in the TLA and the Logo Usage Guidelines. As a result he had to close down the page. This is a loss for both Fedora and Robert. > Either you believe the Fedora brand is worthy of protection or you do > not. Sorry Jeff, I think the world is not only black and white and not all questions can be reduced to a simple "ether... or". For me it's "Yes... but...". I do believe the Fedora brand is worthy of protection, but the current TLA is not a good way to protect it because it bears unforeseeable risks for the community members but zero risk for the trademark owner. > I happen to think its worthy of protection against malicious use. > I don't want a Microsoft or Apple shill being able to put up > misinformation sites that use the Fedora trademarks. In order to > prevent that, trademark law must be invoked and all trademark usage > must be sanctioned. Was this intended or a Freudian slip? You mean *mis*use must be sanctioned, right? Currently I'm under the impression that "all trademark usage must be sanctioned" fits better to the TLA. > I also do not believe that you can satisfactorily write down a > succinct definition of all possible misuse that a licensee may engage > in that would cause confusion in the market. Agreed. But we are not talking about misuse here, at least the TLA does not. The TLA clearly states "for any reason". If there was at least a mention of the term "misuse" we could build upon that. > If you don't trust Red Hat as the mark holder to do the right thing > and to only exercise the legal power to terminate a license when a > license holder is misusing the mark..then I'm not sure what to tell > you as I don't think a satisfactory compromise could be reached that > did not require scrutiny by legal representation for all > parties..something you don't want to do. If you don't trust Red Hat to > do the right thing..you'll be contacting a lawyer if there was ever a > dispute.. so I don't understand the reluctance now. Signing an agreement is not about trust. If we all trusted each other there wouldn't be need for a written agreement. So basically signing a contract is about what both parties are allowed to do within the room for interpretation the contract leaves. And in my opinion this room is way to wide and gives the licensor greater rights than the licensee. Please note that I'm not declining the TLA as such but only certain parts. I do agree that there should be a solid legal base for using the trademarks, but I think the current TLA is only solid for one party but not for the other. > -jef"Would you feel any better if Red Hat signed over the marks to me > personally?"spaleta Regards, Christoph"I don't think so."Wickert From christoph.wickert at googlemail.com Fri Aug 28 07:52:34 2009 From: christoph.wickert at googlemail.com (Christoph Wickert) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 09:52:34 +0200 Subject: The current Trademark License Agreement is unacceptable In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440908271600n5032199ayc588bcf50ec2fb2a@mail.gmail.com> References: <1251383117.2923.85.camel@localhost> <20090827220807.GA551@hurricane.linuxnetz.de> <4A970475.4040304@redhat.com> <200908280035.27929.deadbabylon@googlemail.com> <2cb10c440908271600n5032199ayc588bcf50ec2fb2a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1251445954.2746.72.camel@localhost> Am Donnerstag, den 27.08.2009, 19:00 -0400 schrieb Luis Villa: > The agreement does not make that worse, and may well in some respects > make it better. So by all means work with Red Hat to simplify, > clarify, etc. But please don't make the agreement out to be a big deal > when it really isn't. It changes very little. I disagree, it does make it worse because 1. the licensee obligates himself for an unlimited indemnification and 2. the licensee acknowledges the licensor to automatically become owner of his domains even for no reason. Without the TLA these questions would have to be cleared when they arise, but by signing the TLA you in advance resign the right to go to court. > Luis Regards, Christoph From fedora at ml.shredzone.de Fri Aug 28 08:35:31 2009 From: fedora at ml.shredzone.de (=?UTF-8?B?UmljaGFyZCBLw7ZyYmVy?=) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 10:35:31 +0200 Subject: The current Trademark License Agreement is unacceptable In-Reply-To: <604aa7910908271548r17edae2fkad40e748fa2ea75c@mail.gmail.com> References: <1251383117.2923.85.camel@localhost> <20090827192212.GA4000@localhost.localdomain> <4A96FA8D.8000306@ml.shredzone.de> <80d7e4090908271439h40d2b6f8teba0e1370c9dd880@mail.gmail.com> <1251411866.2923.159.camel@localhost> <604aa7910908271548r17edae2fkad40e748fa2ea75c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A9796D3.1000106@ml.shredzone.de> > More ridiculous than the level of mistrust over the stated intention > to protect the trademarks against potential misuse? It is not about mistrust... When people sign contracts, it's usually because both sides expect a gain from it. Anyhow, as I have explained, I think that I will have less rights after signing the TLA than I have now (at least under German law). I could use the fedora domain without worries, allright. But now I would have to worry that I lose the right to publish my intellectual property when Red Hat revokes the right to use their trademarks. Plus I would now have to abide by a catalog of design requirements, in order to use the trademark properly. Some of those requirements even raise new legal issues for me. So what is my actual gain from signing the TLA? Especially when considering the fact that I have invested money and a considerable amount of time in that site, but did not make a single cent from it. Besides that, we're not signing contracts for fun. Pacta sunt servanda. It is careless to sign a contract in the hope that some parts of it will never be applied. -- Richard From dimitris at glezos.com Fri Aug 28 09:04:42 2009 From: dimitris at glezos.com (Dimitris Glezos) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 12:04:42 +0300 Subject: The current Trademark License Agreement is unacceptable In-Reply-To: <1251445335.2746.63.camel@localhost> References: <1251383117.2923.85.camel@localhost> <20090827192212.GA4000@localhost.localdomain> <4A96FA8D.8000306@ml.shredzone.de> <80d7e4090908271439h40d2b6f8teba0e1370c9dd880@mail.gmail.com> <1251411866.2923.159.camel@localhost> <604aa7910908271548r17edae2fkad40e748fa2ea75c@mail.gmail.com> <1251445335.2746.63.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <6d4237680908280204v68a954cfj28bfc42748efa2aa@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 10:42 AM, Christoph Wickert wrote: > Am Donnerstag, den 27.08.2009, 14:48 -0800 schrieb Jeff Spaleta: >> Let me put it this way. Would you prefer that the Fedora brand be >> unprotected by trademarks so that anyone could use them for any >> purpose whatsoever even if they were deliberately attempting to cause >> confusion in the market? > > No, but I think the current attempt to protect is counterproductive. We > all know that intentions are good (TM), so let's not look at the > intentions but at the results: > > Robert is the owner of the domain fedora.de. He used it to mirror the > German parts of fedoraproject.org. Now with the TLA he can no longer do > this because the webpages at fp.o do not follow the standards set in the > TLA and the Logo Usage Guidelines. As a result he had to close down the > page. This is a loss for both Fedora and Robert. In volunteer communities such as open source, de-motivating factors are tragic losses. Christoph's arguments clearly bring to the surface some of my concerns about the aggressive enforcement of our protection of the trademark. I, too, believe we need to protect our trademark. But the real question is: who do we want to protect it from? Right now we're putting obstacles and red-tape to excited community members. But these are the people who power our own community, these are the people who represent Fedora in conferences, local universities, at their jobs. If we trust them to be our champions and defend our Project, we should trust them in domains too, for example: "if you see that you're stepping away from active contribution, we trust you'll hand the domain over to other members." Because eventually: 1. The only way we can enforce a signed agreement is if RH Legal takes a community member of ours to the court. This should never happen. 2. Even without a signed agreement it could take them to court, because they're using the trademark. 3. But the above two are completely off topic, IMHO. The real problem is this: We want to protect Fedora from bad people. These people who WILL want to harm the trademark will do it ANYWAY. Signed agreement or not, trademark or not. I believe that a lot of people are trying to help. But I also believe the whole red-tape we're putting is not the right way to do it because it's not effective. It's like security in airports: asking people to give away bottle of water and having mothers of 4 trying their own breast milk, and taking away nail clippers... It just sucks, and doesn't stop the real bad guys. It just makes our lives miserable. Empowering our local users and tearing down all Stop-Energy factors should be #1 priority as community architects. Having said these, there *are* a number of ways to protect our trademark from THESE users. For example, when we see such a site that we suspect is not respecting the trademark, we could ask the person at THAT point to sign the agreement. >> I happen to think its worthy of protection against malicious use. >> I don't want a Microsoft or Apple shill being able to put up >> misinformation sites that use the Fedora trademarks. In order to >> prevent that, trademark law must be invoked and all trademark usage >> must be sanctioned. > > Was this intended or a Freudian slip? You mean *mis*use must be > sanctioned, right? Currently I'm under the impression that "all > trademark usage must be sanctioned" fits better to the TLA. One of my arguments against these measures was that the examples of malicious use are very rare, if they exist. Do we know of any, actually? And if yes, do we have proof that a) The person wouldn't comply with an email from the board asking kindly to stop it? b) The person *could* be approached via the legal way (or is the domain registered on the Isle of man)? c) The cost for putting red-tape to the other 99% community members IS WORTH this risk? >> If you don't trust Red Hat as the mark holder to do the right thing >> and to only exercise the legal power to terminate a license when a >> license holder is misusing the mark..then I'm not sure what to tell >> you as I don't think a satisfactory compromise could be reached that >> did not require scrutiny by legal representation for all >> parties.. Trust goes both ways. IMHO we should *by default* trust our community champions to do the right thing. If they don't, we should trust that they will if we simply ASK them to do it. Someone should be innocent until proven otherwise. *Especially* in a community where "Freedom" is a core value. -d -- Dimitris Glezos Transifex: The Multilingual Publishing Revolution http://www.transifex.net/ -- http://www.indifex.com/ From mmcgrath at redhat.com Fri Aug 28 13:30:49 2009 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 08:30:49 -0500 (CDT) Subject: The current Trademark License Agreement is unacceptable In-Reply-To: <1251445335.2746.63.camel@localhost> References: <1251383117.2923.85.camel@localhost> <20090827192212.GA4000@localhost.localdomain> <4A96FA8D.8000306@ml.shredzone.de> <80d7e4090908271439h40d2b6f8teba0e1370c9dd880@mail.gmail.com> <1251411866.2923.159.camel@localhost> <604aa7910908271548r17edae2fkad40e748fa2ea75c@mail.gmail.com> <1251445335.2746.63.camel@localhost> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Aug 2009, Christoph Wickert wrote: > Am Donnerstag, den 27.08.2009, 14:48 -0800 schrieb Jeff Spaleta: > > On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 2:24 PM, Christoph > > Wickert wrote: > > > The problem is: Who can afford a lawyer? This is American trade mark > > > law, so you not only need a common lawyer but an expert for intellectual > > > property rights. Is Red Hat really expecting their community members to > > > pay for a lawyer if they want to contribute? That would be ridiculous. > > > > More ridiculous than the level of mistrust over the stated intention > > to protect the trademarks against potential misuse? > > I find the mistrust understandable if > * someone wants me to sign a contract that I cannot fully > understand > * they refuse to provide a translation that I can understand > * there are still questions not answered after half a year. > Honestly as someone who's not involved in this at all and just watching from the outside, it seems like y'all are working hard to find ways to make this not work instead of the other way around. After these questions are answered, will you come up with some more? -Mike From notting at redhat.com Fri Aug 28 13:34:30 2009 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 09:34:30 -0400 Subject: The current Trademark License Agreement is unacceptable In-Reply-To: <6d4237680908280204v68a954cfj28bfc42748efa2aa@mail.gmail.com> References: <1251383117.2923.85.camel@localhost> <20090827192212.GA4000@localhost.localdomain> <4A96FA8D.8000306@ml.shredzone.de> <80d7e4090908271439h40d2b6f8teba0e1370c9dd880@mail.gmail.com> <1251411866.2923.159.camel@localhost> <604aa7910908271548r17edae2fkad40e748fa2ea75c@mail.gmail.com> <1251445335.2746.63.camel@localhost> <6d4237680908280204v68a954cfj28bfc42748efa2aa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090828133430.GA19247@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Dimitris Glezos (dimitris at glezos.com) said: > Having said these, there *are* a number of ways to protect our > trademark from THESE users. For example, when we see such a site that > we suspect is not respecting the trademark, we could ask the person at > THAT point to sign the agreement. Everything I've ever been told about trademark law is that you can *NOT* selectively enforce trademarks. Bill From fedora at ml.shredzone.de Fri Aug 28 13:37:55 2009 From: fedora at ml.shredzone.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Richard_K=F6rber?=) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 15:37:55 +0200 Subject: The current Trademark License Agreement is unacceptable In-Reply-To: References: <1251383117.2923.85.camel@localhost> <20090827192212.GA4000@localhost.localdomain> <4A96FA8D.8000306@ml.shredzone.de> <80d7e4090908271439h40d2b6f8teba0e1370c9dd880@mail.gmail.com> <1251411866.2923.159.camel@localhost> <604aa7910908271548r17edae2fkad40e748fa2ea75c@mail.gmail.com> <1251445335.2746.63.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <4A97DDB3.9020304@ml.shredzone.de> > Honestly as someone who's not involved in this at all and just watching > from the outside, it seems like y'all are working hard to find ways to > make this not work instead of the other way around. After these questions > are answered, will you come up with some more? Thanks, it really feels good to be taken seriously... :( -- Richard From dennis at ausil.us Fri Aug 28 14:47:28 2009 From: dennis at ausil.us (Dennis Gilmore) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 09:47:28 -0500 Subject: The current Trademark License Agreement is unacceptable In-Reply-To: <4A9796D3.1000106@ml.shredzone.de> References: <1251383117.2923.85.camel@localhost> <604aa7910908271548r17edae2fkad40e748fa2ea75c@mail.gmail.com> <4A9796D3.1000106@ml.shredzone.de> Message-ID: <200908280947.28561.dennis@ausil.us> On Friday 28 August 2009 03:35:31 am Richard K?rber wrote: > > More ridiculous than the level of mistrust over the stated intention > > to protect the trademarks against potential misuse? > > It is not about mistrust... > > When people sign contracts, it's usually because both sides expect a > gain from it. Anyhow, as I have explained, I think that I will have less > rights after signing the TLA than I have now (at least under German law). > > I could use the fedora domain without worries, allright. But now I would > have to worry that I lose the right to publish my intellectual property > when Red Hat revokes the right to use their trademarks. Plus I would now > have to abide by a catalog of design requirements, in order to use the > trademark properly. Some of those requirements even raise new legal > issues for me. > > So what is my actual gain from signing the TLA? > > Especially when considering the fact that I have invested money and a > considerable amount of time in that site, but did not make a single cent > from it. > > Besides that, we're not signing contracts for fun. Pacta sunt servanda. > It is careless to sign a contract in the hope that some parts of it will > never be applied. I think you need to go to a lawyer and get professional legal opinion.you are making assumptions and reading things into this. AFAIK your not a lawyer and if it concerns you so much then you should seek professional guidance. Dennis -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From christoph.wickert at googlemail.com Fri Aug 28 15:15:45 2009 From: christoph.wickert at googlemail.com (Christoph Wickert) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 17:15:45 +0200 Subject: The current Trademark License Agreement is unacceptable In-Reply-To: References: <1251383117.2923.85.camel@localhost> <20090827192212.GA4000@localhost.localdomain> <4A96FA8D.8000306@ml.shredzone.de> <80d7e4090908271439h40d2b6f8teba0e1370c9dd880@mail.gmail.com> <1251411866.2923.159.camel@localhost> <604aa7910908271548r17edae2fkad40e748fa2ea75c@mail.gmail.com> <1251445335.2746.63.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <1251472545.2746.198.camel@localhost> Am Freitag, den 28.08.2009, 08:30 -0500 schrieb Mike McGrath: > > Honestly as someone who's not involved in this at all and just watching > from the outside, it seems like y'all are working hard to find ways to > make this not work instead of the other way around. First of all I'm not really involved ether, because I do not own a Fedora* domain. I am member of the Fedora Project and I work hard to get the wider community, e. g. people running sites about Fedora involved in the Fedora project or to at least enhance the cooperation between them and the project. I *want* them to sign a contract, but unfortunately I cannot recommend signing the TLA in it's current form, even as a member of the project who believes in Red Hat's good will. Second: Please don't use generalizations like "you all". My position is different from Robert's or Richard's for example. But I share their concerns, at least to a certain degree. > After these questions > are answered, will you come up with some more? Not sure about others, but I cannot tell anybody to sign a contract if he still has questions. > -Mike Regards, Christoph From mmcgrath at redhat.com Fri Aug 28 15:59:13 2009 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 10:59:13 -0500 (CDT) Subject: The current Trademark License Agreement is unacceptable In-Reply-To: <1251472545.2746.198.camel@localhost> References: <1251383117.2923.85.camel@localhost> <20090827192212.GA4000@localhost.localdomain> <4A96FA8D.8000306@ml.shredzone.de> <80d7e4090908271439h40d2b6f8teba0e1370c9dd880@mail.gmail.com> <1251411866.2923.159.camel@localhost> <604aa7910908271548r17edae2fkad40e748fa2ea75c@mail.gmail.com> <1251445335.2746.63.camel@localhost> <1251472545.2746.198.camel@localhost> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Aug 2009, Christoph Wickert wrote: > Am Freitag, den 28.08.2009, 08:30 -0500 schrieb Mike McGrath: > > > > Honestly as someone who's not involved in this at all and just watching > > from the outside, it seems like y'all are working hard to find ways to > > make this not work instead of the other way around. > > First of all I'm not really involved ether, because I do not own a > Fedora* domain. I am member of the Fedora Project and I work hard to get > the wider community, e. g. people running sites about Fedora involved in > the Fedora project or to at least enhance the cooperation between them > and the project. I *want* them to sign a contract, but unfortunately I > cannot recommend signing the TLA in it's current form, even as a member > of the project who believes in Red Hat's good will. > > Second: Please don't use generalizations like "you all". My position is > different from Robert's or Richard's for example. But I share their > concerns, at least to a certain degree. > > > After these questions > > are answered, will you come up with some more? > > Not sure about others, but I cannot tell anybody to sign a contract if > he still has questions. > It just feels like the people involved has created a lose lose position for themselves. They can't or won't get a lawyer, so they can't get expert advice from them and have chosen not to trust the RH lawyers. Since they themselves aren't going to become lawyers they're trying to interperate the law themselves. Which is just like getting a lawyer to try to understand python. There's a reason developers develop and lawyers.. law. And thus they're literally stuck. Their only option is to trust the agreement won't take their home away from them. While I admit that's a tough place for them to be in, Ville's email was very correct. There seems to be no choice but to trust the RH lawyers and the RH company. Mdomsch was also very correct in that if we start suing our community base we've failed. If I were in this position I'd sign the contract and do my work. If legal trouble came about and I thought it was unfair. I'd leave and spend my volunteer but still skilled labor somewhere else. -Mike From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 16:16:17 2009 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 08:16:17 -0800 Subject: The current Trademark License Agreement is unacceptable In-Reply-To: <1251445335.2746.63.camel@localhost> References: <1251383117.2923.85.camel@localhost> <20090827192212.GA4000@localhost.localdomain> <4A96FA8D.8000306@ml.shredzone.de> <80d7e4090908271439h40d2b6f8teba0e1370c9dd880@mail.gmail.com> <1251411866.2923.159.camel@localhost> <604aa7910908271548r17edae2fkad40e748fa2ea75c@mail.gmail.com> <1251445335.2746.63.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <604aa7910908280916y59061e56x12d94f7d5cad277f@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 11:42 PM, Christoph Wickert wrote: > Sorry Jeff, I think the world is not only black and white and not all But trademark law IS black and white. > questions can be reduced to a simple "ether... or". For me it's "Yes... > but...". I do believe the Fedora brand is worthy of protection, but the > current TLA is not a good way to protect it because it bears > unforeseeable risks for the community members but zero risk for the > trademark owner. Anyone using the marks right now...without a license from the marks holder is already taking a risk. The TLA presents no additional risks. > >> I happen to think its worthy of protection against malicious use. >> I don't want a Microsoft or Apple shill being able to put up >> misinformation sites that use the Fedora trademarks. In order to >> prevent that, trademark law must be invoked and all trademark usage >> must be sanctioned. > > Was this intended or a Freudian slip? You mean *mis*use must be > sanctioned, right? Currently I'm under the impression that "all > trademark usage must be sanctioned" fits better to the TLA. No actually... All use must be sanctioned... some definitions of the word sanction which apply: "formal and explicit approval" "approve: give sanction to" "give authority or permission to" "An approval, by an authority, that makes something valid" Sanction, as in to give approval, is required for trademark. Trademarks lose their protected status if they are allowed to go unused without a license. Yes it sucks...but that's how it works. If a malicious person can point to unlicensed use of the mark, they stand a much better chance of being able to invalidate the mark. What you perceive as a kindness to those showing good faith will actually make it harder to keep those with malicious intent from using the mark in a way that causes confusion. Unlicensed use of the mark by anyone weakens the ability of the mark holder to enforce the mark when it needs to be enforced. I sort of wish software patents and trademarks were reversed in this regard..but alas they are not. > >> I also do not believe that you can satisfactorily write down a >> succinct ?definition of all possible misuse that a licensee may engage >> in that would cause confusion in the market. > > Agreed. But we are not talking about misuse here, at least the TLA does > not. The TLA clearly states "for any reason". If there was at least a > mention of the term "misuse" we could build upon that. Since you can't define misuse, it has no meaning in a legal document. > Signing an agreement is not about trust. If we all trusted each other > there wouldn't be need for a written agreement. You are wrong. The legal system under which trademark exists requires trademarks to be licensed regardless. Trademarks which are allowed to be used unlicensed(unsanctioned use) lose their validity as protectable trademarks. By continuing to allow anyone..even myself..to use the fedora marks in an unlicensed capacity risks the protected status of the marks entirely. I would love nothing more than to be able to see unspecified good faith use going on without a license having to be signed...but it doesn't work that way for trademark. > So basically signing a > contract is about what both parties are allowed to do within the room > for interpretation the contract leaves. And in my opinion this room is > way to wide and gives the licensor greater rights than the licensee. The licensor already has wider rights. If you want rights parity in the agreement, I don't think you are going to be satisfied with any license. Sadly I fear that what is going to satisfy you ultimately is a more sophisticatedly worded license that is less explicit about the "any use" nature of the termination clause. > > Please note that I'm not declining the TLA as such but only certain > parts. I do agree that there should be a solid legal base for using the > trademarks, but I think the current TLA is only solid for one party but > not for the other. Trademark law is not structured in a way that makes it possible to give equal rights to both licensee and licensor. No one has figured out how to make a copyleft-like licensing vehicle that works inside the structure of trademark law that still adequately protects the mark. Please do not let your layperson understanding of copyright and how copyleft works misguide you into setting the wrong expectation for what is achievable as trademark license agreement. -jef From stickster at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 15:13:24 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 11:13:24 -0400 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2009-08-27 UTC 1630 Message-ID: <20090828151324.GF15310@localhost.localdomain> The log of the public IRC meeting in #fedora-design has been posted to the wiki: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meeting:Board_meeting_2009-08-27 Thanks to all who attended and helped us have a productive review and meeting. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From smooge at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 16:29:53 2009 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 10:29:53 -0600 Subject: The current Trademark License Agreement is unacceptable In-Reply-To: <1251472545.2746.198.camel@localhost> References: <1251383117.2923.85.camel@localhost> <20090827192212.GA4000@localhost.localdomain> <4A96FA8D.8000306@ml.shredzone.de> <80d7e4090908271439h40d2b6f8teba0e1370c9dd880@mail.gmail.com> <1251411866.2923.159.camel@localhost> <604aa7910908271548r17edae2fkad40e748fa2ea75c@mail.gmail.com> <1251445335.2746.63.camel@localhost> <1251472545.2746.198.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <80d7e4090908280929w362bf0e5k4dbb6e60b2213256@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 9:15 AM, Christoph Wickert wrote: > Am Freitag, den 28.08.2009, 08:30 -0500 schrieb Mike McGrath: >> >> Honestly as someone who's not involved in this at all and just watching >> from the outside, it seems like y'all are working hard to find ways to >> make this not work instead of the other way around. > > First of all I'm not really involved ether, because I do not own a > Fedora* domain. I am member of the Fedora Project and I work hard to get > the wider community, e. g. people running sites about Fedora involved in > the Fedora project or to at least enhance the cooperation between them > and the project. I *want* them to sign a contract, but unfortunately I > cannot recommend signing the TLA in it's current form, even as a member > of the project who believes in Red Hat's good will. > > Second: Please don't use generalizations like "you all". My position is > different from Robert's or Richard's for example. But I share their > concerns, at least to a certain degree. > >> After these questions >> are answered, will you come up with some more? > > Not sure about others, but I cannot tell anybody to sign a contract if > he still has questions. > Can you tell them to get professional advice versus asking on a mailing list? 1) Translations of legal documents are not used because they may not convey things properly in the language or legally binding aspects of that country. Its why the GPL had all the disclaimers about the English version being the only legal version and the translations may be wrong and not to be trusted. 2) There is a reason why IANAL is one of the oldest acronym's in Internet history. Giving/getting advice on a mailing list is a lose-lose situation. The advice is given by people who have no idea how the law really works and usually expect it to act like logic when it does not. And the people who are looking for it are at worst headed for disaster and best going to get a real lawyer. 3) Trademark law is not like copyright, patent, or other intellectual laws... The onus is on the owner of the trademark to police their 'mark' stringently and it is up to usually a jury to decide if they did it enough or not. Selective enforcement is not possible and in fact subletting out trademark in any format is usually frowned on heavily. Trademark law is a country by country thing or in germany state by state (Bavarian trademark rules may be different from Holstein rules and what is considered enforcing enough is different etc). -- Stephen J Smoogen. Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp. Or what's a heaven for? -- Robert Browning From fedora at ml.shredzone.de Fri Aug 28 16:46:48 2009 From: fedora at ml.shredzone.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Richard_K=F6rber?=) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 18:46:48 +0200 Subject: The current Trademark License Agreement is unacceptable In-Reply-To: References: <1251383117.2923.85.camel@localhost> <20090827192212.GA4000@localhost.localdomain> <4A96FA8D.8000306@ml.shredzone.de> <80d7e4090908271439h40d2b6f8teba0e1370c9dd880@mail.gmail.com> <1251411866.2923.159.camel@localhost> <604aa7910908271548r17edae2fkad40e748fa2ea75c@mail.gmail.com> <1251445335.2746.63.camel@localhost> <1251472545.2746.198.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <4A9809F8.3020708@ml.shredzone.de> > They can't or won't get a lawyer, so they can't get expert advice from > them and have chosen not to trust the RH lawyers. I don't need a lawyer's advice to know that I will breach the TLA the very moment I sign it. So what could I do? Should I hope that the Red Hat lawyers will generously ignore that? -- Richard From stickster at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 15:38:11 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 11:38:11 -0400 Subject: The current Trademark License Agreement is unacceptable In-Reply-To: <1251472545.2746.198.camel@localhost> References: <1251383117.2923.85.camel@localhost> <20090827192212.GA4000@localhost.localdomain> <4A96FA8D.8000306@ml.shredzone.de> <80d7e4090908271439h40d2b6f8teba0e1370c9dd880@mail.gmail.com> <1251411866.2923.159.camel@localhost> <604aa7910908271548r17edae2fkad40e748fa2ea75c@mail.gmail.com> <1251445335.2746.63.camel@localhost> <1251472545.2746.198.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20090828153811.GJ15310@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 05:15:45PM +0200, Christoph Wickert wrote: > Am Freitag, den 28.08.2009, 08:30 -0500 schrieb Mike McGrath: > > > > Honestly as someone who's not involved in this at all and just watching > > from the outside, it seems like y'all are working hard to find ways to > > make this not work instead of the other way around. > > First of all I'm not really involved ether, because I do not own a > Fedora* domain. I am member of the Fedora Project and I work hard to get > the wider community, e. g. people running sites about Fedora involved in > the Fedora project or to at least enhance the cooperation between them > and the project. I *want* them to sign a contract, but unfortunately I > cannot recommend signing the TLA in it's current form, even as a member > of the project who believes in Red Hat's good will. > > Second: Please don't use generalizations like "you all". My position is > different from Robert's or Richard's for example. But I share their > concerns, at least to a certain degree. > > > After these questions > > are answered, will you come up with some more? > > Not sure about others, but I cannot tell anybody to sign a contract if > he still has questions. Christoph, to what extent have my explanations answered your questions? I tried to address all your points, including letting you know that we intend to eliminate the 3(a) clause you objected to. I do agree that people shouldn't sign contracts they don't understand, which is exactly why I've tried to explain the issues you wrote about. It would be more productive for us to carry on that conversation and not be derailed by unproductive assumptions about people's motives, or assuming that overly literal readings of the agreement are the correct ones. I know that you are a great community member and the intention of this agreement isn't, and hasn't ever been, to derail your work. I think any such perception can be fixed through a better understanding of what the text actually means -- as opposed to how you or I might interpret it, which isn't necessarily how it would be interpreted in the legal sense -- and the willingness of our counsel to help us find ways to improve the agreement, which I think you've already seen by the offer to eliminate the 3(a) clause. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net Fri Aug 28 17:14:24 2009 From: Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net (Axel Thimm) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 20:14:24 +0300 Subject: The current Trademark License Agreement is unacceptable In-Reply-To: <80d7e4090908280929w362bf0e5k4dbb6e60b2213256@mail.gmail.com> References: <1251383117.2923.85.camel@localhost> <20090827192212.GA4000@localhost.localdomain> <4A96FA8D.8000306@ml.shredzone.de> <80d7e4090908271439h40d2b6f8teba0e1370c9dd880@mail.gmail.com> <1251411866.2923.159.camel@localhost> <604aa7910908271548r17edae2fkad40e748fa2ea75c@mail.gmail.com> <1251445335.2746.63.camel@localhost> <1251472545.2746.198.camel@localhost> <80d7e4090908280929w362bf0e5k4dbb6e60b2213256@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090828171424.GA24479@victor.nirvana> On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 10:29:53AM -0600, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > Trademark law is a country by country thing or in germany state by > state (Bavarian trademark rules may be different from Holstein rules > and what is considered enforcing enough is different etc). The last time Holstein had any kind of self-administration was in 1864 before it was merged with Southern Schleswig to Schleswig-Holstein ;) And to add something of value to the discussion: Trademark law in Germany is federal-only, there are no state-specific laws/registrations - I can only guess that this is similar for the US as well, but maybe it isn't. Trademark law in the EU has been simplied that much that it is almost as easy to register an EU-wide trademark as a national one and users of these trademarks can start counting on similar treatment across the EU. Finally for international trademarks there is the 100 year old Madrid protocol signed off by all major players which is bundling international registrations in a single office in Geneva. This is different from the EU registration in that it justs bundles the registrations, but doesn't offer a single place of dispute. What I want to say is that despite all possible country-specific differences in law, trademark laws are quite old and had time to level off across country barriers. There won't be many significant differences from the US to Germany for example, and certainly not from Bavaria to (Schleswig-)Holstein. ;). -- Axel.Thimm at ATrpms.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dimitris at glezos.com Fri Aug 28 17:20:00 2009 From: dimitris at glezos.com (Dimitris Glezos) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 20:20:00 +0300 Subject: The current Trademark License Agreement is unacceptable In-Reply-To: <80d7e4090908280929w362bf0e5k4dbb6e60b2213256@mail.gmail.com> References: <1251383117.2923.85.camel@localhost> <20090827192212.GA4000@localhost.localdomain> <4A96FA8D.8000306@ml.shredzone.de> <80d7e4090908271439h40d2b6f8teba0e1370c9dd880@mail.gmail.com> <1251411866.2923.159.camel@localhost> <604aa7910908271548r17edae2fkad40e748fa2ea75c@mail.gmail.com> <1251445335.2746.63.camel@localhost> <1251472545.2746.198.camel@localhost> <80d7e4090908280929w362bf0e5k4dbb6e60b2213256@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6d4237680908281020h22c04cc2nde92f5302b8f85ca@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 7:29 PM, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > Can you tell them to get professional advice versus asking on a mailing list? I'll be very sad if we conclude that we want to foster a community in which a member will need professional legal advice to start a fan site. Such an energy stopper.. Also -- one of the most often mistakes in globalization is assuming that certain local 'habits' and 'idioms' apply to everyone. In this case, I noticed a lot of assumptions about other countries' legal habits. We should consider various things before globalizing this agreement document: Is it common in other countries to ask a lawyer before you sign a document? Do lawyers really know how to "handle" this document (does the lawyer speak English at all? Does he understand the fine details? Do the points in the document actually apply in the local law?) Can these documents actually be signed (eg. underage fans creating sites)? Are we sure this request isn't even *insulting* people in certain countries? > 1) Translations of legal documents are not used because they may not > convey things properly in the language or legally binding aspects of > that country. Its why the GPL had all the disclaimers about the > English version being the only legal version and the translations may > be wrong and not to be trusted. That's why this process isn't called "translation", but "localization". Part of it is adapting the document to the local law. Because in a lot of cases, the original version isn't even applicable. And that's why Creative Commons has actively ported their licenses in more than 50 countries. I'm sure that trademark law is more or less international by now. I'm not sure the assumptions behind our actions in enforcing our trademark are. My suggestion is to trust our users by default. To catch bad guys, create monitors (eg. local community champions) that can detect when a site does bad things. The Board at that point can send this person a letter to hand off the domain. As we did all this time, quite successfully. -d -- Dimitris Glezos Transifex: The Multilingual Publishing Revolution http://www.transifex.net/ -- http://www.indifex.com/ From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 17:37:28 2009 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 09:37:28 -0800 Subject: The current Trademark License Agreement is unacceptable In-Reply-To: <6d4237680908281020h22c04cc2nde92f5302b8f85ca@mail.gmail.com> References: <1251383117.2923.85.camel@localhost> <4A96FA8D.8000306@ml.shredzone.de> <80d7e4090908271439h40d2b6f8teba0e1370c9dd880@mail.gmail.com> <1251411866.2923.159.camel@localhost> <604aa7910908271548r17edae2fkad40e748fa2ea75c@mail.gmail.com> <1251445335.2746.63.camel@localhost> <1251472545.2746.198.camel@localhost> <80d7e4090908280929w362bf0e5k4dbb6e60b2213256@mail.gmail.com> <6d4237680908281020h22c04cc2nde92f5302b8f85ca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910908281037r3dc71c8tc7fd1a78e257adb0@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 9:20 AM, Dimitris Glezos wrote: > My suggestion is to trust our users by default. Are you suggesting that there be no license agreement? Or are you suggesting that the agreement be worded differently? Assuming you mean no agreement at all....this is easy to say..but you can't get around the need to have a trademark license agreement in place if you want a protected mark. There is no getting around that. There has to be a license..a legal document...and all users of the mark have to abide by it...or there is no protected mark. Assuming you mean a different wording....you'd have to explicitly define an exhaustive list of "bad things" and put them into the license agreement as exclude behavior. If it comes down to judgement on a case by case basis its effectively no different than the current for any reason clause. At best you've come up with a way to word the clause. -jef From stickster at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 17:43:10 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 13:43:10 -0400 Subject: The current Trademark License Agreement is unacceptable In-Reply-To: <6d4237680908281020h22c04cc2nde92f5302b8f85ca@mail.gmail.com> References: <20090827192212.GA4000@localhost.localdomain> <4A96FA8D.8000306@ml.shredzone.de> <80d7e4090908271439h40d2b6f8teba0e1370c9dd880@mail.gmail.com> <1251411866.2923.159.camel@localhost> <604aa7910908271548r17edae2fkad40e748fa2ea75c@mail.gmail.com> <1251445335.2746.63.camel@localhost> <1251472545.2746.198.camel@localhost> <80d7e4090908280929w362bf0e5k4dbb6e60b2213256@mail.gmail.com> <6d4237680908281020h22c04cc2nde92f5302b8f85ca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090828174310.GD20360@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 08:20:00PM +0300, Dimitris Glezos wrote: > On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 7:29 PM, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > > Can you tell them to get professional advice versus asking on a mailing list? > > I'll be very sad if we conclude that we want to foster a community in > which a member will need professional legal advice to start a fan > site. Such an energy stopper.. I don't think anyone has concluded that, Dimitris. What I think Smooge is saying is that a bunch of non-lawyers advising a bunch of non-lawyers about what a legal text might mean is not a good basis for making decisions, or for advising others for that matter. If I thought that this process required people to go get attorneys I'd agree it's an utter failure. A few rough spots that need to be ironed out, especially when they involve misunderstandings, do not cause me to think the same thing. Because we have a whole project full of very smart people -- particularly engineers -- it's naturally tempting for us to think we can solve problems through analysis. But just as I wouldn't expect an attorney to figure out how to debug kernel problems, I wouldn't expect us on this list to be able to debug a legal agreement. However, we definitely can *report* problems and help in the testing. Both activities are important, just as they are in our project when we deal with code. > My suggestion is to trust our users by default. To catch bad guys, > create monitors (eg. local community champions) that can detect when a > site does bad things. The Board at that point can send this person a > letter to hand off the domain. As we did all this time, quite > successfully. You are not taking into account that through inaction in other places -- which I agree needs to be guided by respect for the issues raised here by community members, and addressing them wherever possible -- we can easily make it impossible for the Board to effectively do that. When our TM guidelines forbade basically *everything,* it was easy to just police misuse at will. But that also meant Red Hat had much more unilateral and inflexible control over the trademarks, even though everyone seemed to ignore that glaring fact most (and maybe all) of the time. Now that our TM guidelines have been overhauled and create many more liberal permissions, we have a more difficult (but I think worthwhile) job in creating a landscape where we're helping to safeguard the trademarks but at the same time permitting broad and liberal use. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From herrold at owlriver.com Fri Aug 28 17:53:52 2009 From: herrold at owlriver.com (R P Herrold) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 13:53:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The current Trademark License Agreement is unacceptable In-Reply-To: <20090828171424.GA24479@victor.nirvana> References: <1251383117.2923.85.camel@localhost> <20090827192212.GA4000@localhost.localdomain> <4A96FA8D.8000306@ml.shredzone.de> <80d7e4090908271439h40d2b6f8teba0e1370c9dd880@mail.gmail.com> <1251411866.2923.159.camel@localhost> <604aa7910908271548r17edae2fkad40e748fa2ea75c@mail.gmail.com> <1251445335.2746.63.camel@localhost> <1251472545.2746.198.camel@localhost> <80d7e4090908280929w362bf0e5k4dbb6e60b2213256@mail.gmail.com> <20090828171424.GA24479@victor.nirvana> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Aug 2009, Axel Thimm wrote: > And to add something of value to the discussion: Trademark law in > Germany is federal-only, there are no state-specific > laws/registrations - I can only guess that this is similar for the US > as well, but maybe it isn't. It is not -- and it even worse than you posit; there is federal, state by state, and common (non-statutory) law http://www.bitlaw.com/trademark/index.html Just as nasty a shake pit as you'd ever not want to go swimming through without a lawyer's guidance. I was a "prior use" user of the old 'fedora.us' mark in commerce, prior to Red Hat's pick up of it. I have no hostile intent, but I have used it continuiously since starting. --Russ herrold From inode0 at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 18:12:25 2009 From: inode0 at gmail.com (inode0) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 13:12:25 -0500 Subject: The current Trademark License Agreement is unacceptable In-Reply-To: <604aa7910908281037r3dc71c8tc7fd1a78e257adb0@mail.gmail.com> References: <1251383117.2923.85.camel@localhost> <80d7e4090908271439h40d2b6f8teba0e1370c9dd880@mail.gmail.com> <1251411866.2923.159.camel@localhost> <604aa7910908271548r17edae2fkad40e748fa2ea75c@mail.gmail.com> <1251445335.2746.63.camel@localhost> <1251472545.2746.198.camel@localhost> <80d7e4090908280929w362bf0e5k4dbb6e60b2213256@mail.gmail.com> <6d4237680908281020h22c04cc2nde92f5302b8f85ca@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910908281037r3dc71c8tc7fd1a78e257adb0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 12:37 PM, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 9:20 AM, Dimitris Glezos wrote: >> My suggestion is to trust our users by default. > > Are you suggesting that there be no license agreement? Or are you > suggesting that the agreement be worded differently? The use of Fedora trademarks without permission is granted in various cases in the Trademark Guidelines. Is it not possible to craft a use case here that would fall into that category and sufficiently cover Red Hat's needs while not being a worrisome burden on our contributors? John From dimitris at glezos.com Fri Aug 28 18:15:34 2009 From: dimitris at glezos.com (Dimitris Glezos) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 21:15:34 +0300 Subject: The current Trademark License Agreement is unacceptable In-Reply-To: <20090828174310.GD20360@localhost.localdomain> References: <20090827192212.GA4000@localhost.localdomain> <80d7e4090908271439h40d2b6f8teba0e1370c9dd880@mail.gmail.com> <1251411866.2923.159.camel@localhost> <604aa7910908271548r17edae2fkad40e748fa2ea75c@mail.gmail.com> <1251445335.2746.63.camel@localhost> <1251472545.2746.198.camel@localhost> <80d7e4090908280929w362bf0e5k4dbb6e60b2213256@mail.gmail.com> <6d4237680908281020h22c04cc2nde92f5302b8f85ca@mail.gmail.com> <20090828174310.GD20360@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <6d4237680908281115v7f630ceaj383276a203e170c0@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 8:43 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: >> My suggestion is to trust our users by default. To catch bad guys, >> create monitors (eg. local community champions) that can detect when a >> site does bad things. The Board at that point can send this person a >> letter to hand off the domain. As we did all this time, quite >> successfully. > > You are not taking into account that through inaction in other places > -- which I agree needs to be guided by respect for the issues raised > here by community members, and addressing them wherever possible -- we > can easily make it impossible for the Board to effectively do that. -- This is a good argument, which I'd love to see backed up by some more details. I've asked this before and didn't get an answer. I'd really like to understand exactly what makes impossible for the Board to do what, and under which circumstances. Exactly how does our capability of enforcing the trademark to ONE BAD site change, depending on 99 other sites which either have a signed agreement or not? > When our TM guidelines forbade basically *everything,* it was easy to > just police misuse at will. ?But that also meant Red Hat had much more > unilateral and inflexible control over the trademarks, even though > everyone seemed to ignore that glaring fact most (and maybe all) of > the time. ?Now that our TM guidelines have been overhauled and create > many more liberal permissions, we have a more difficult (but I think > worthwhile) job in creating a landscape where we're helping to > safeguard the trademarks but at the same time permitting broad and > liberal use. My question still remains: Are these processes EFFECTIVE? Do we protect the trademarks from the bad people, or are we just forbidding old ladies from flying with nailclippers? Are we sure the cost we're paying isn't worth the risk? And what is the real risk and how are we effectively defending against it? I'm not even sure we all agree on what the risk is. To me, the risk is a bad person wanting to harm our trademark. This person would never sign such a contract, and will launch the site in a country where you can't easily enforce it. -d -- Dimitris Glezos Transifex: The Multilingual Publishing Revolution http://www.transifex.net/ -- http://www.indifex.com/ From smooge at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 18:17:36 2009 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 12:17:36 -0600 Subject: The current Trademark License Agreement is unacceptable In-Reply-To: <20090828174310.GD20360@localhost.localdomain> References: <20090827192212.GA4000@localhost.localdomain> <80d7e4090908271439h40d2b6f8teba0e1370c9dd880@mail.gmail.com> <1251411866.2923.159.camel@localhost> <604aa7910908271548r17edae2fkad40e748fa2ea75c@mail.gmail.com> <1251445335.2746.63.camel@localhost> <1251472545.2746.198.camel@localhost> <80d7e4090908280929w362bf0e5k4dbb6e60b2213256@mail.gmail.com> <6d4237680908281020h22c04cc2nde92f5302b8f85ca@mail.gmail.com> <20090828174310.GD20360@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <80d7e4090908281117j1924f9cdxb2237683159cb0a4@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 11:43 AM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 08:20:00PM +0300, Dimitris Glezos wrote: >> On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 7:29 PM, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: >> > Can you tell them to get professional advice versus asking on a mailing list? >> >> I'll be very sad if we conclude that we want to foster a community in >> which a member will need professional legal advice to start a fan >> site. Such an energy stopper.. > > I don't think anyone has concluded that, Dimitris. ?What I think > Smooge is saying is that a bunch of non-lawyers advising a bunch of > non-lawyers about what a legal text might mean is not a good basis for > making decisions, or for advising others for that matter. ?If I > thought that this process required people to go get attorneys I'd > agree it's an utter failure. ?A few rough spots that need to be ironed > out, especially when they involve misunderstandings, do not cause me > to think the same thing. Yes, sorry.. as much as English is supposedly my native language, I am not good at using it. I do not expect people to have to get lawyers, but the level of questions and doubt shown in the questions and comments could not be answered on a list of non-lawyers (or even on a list of lawyers). These sort of questions usually end up as this one, everyone frustrated because they can't have a definitive answer and no one agrees on what is the best course.. Sorry for adding to the confusion. I will try to make it better by dropping out as I am not helping. -- Stephen J Smoogen. Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp. Or what's a heaven for? -- Robert Browning From tcallawa at redhat.com Fri Aug 28 18:38:58 2009 From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom "spot" Callaway) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 14:38:58 -0400 Subject: The current Trademark License Agreement is unacceptable In-Reply-To: <6d4237680908281115v7f630ceaj383276a203e170c0@mail.gmail.com> References: <20090827192212.GA4000@localhost.localdomain> <80d7e4090908271439h40d2b6f8teba0e1370c9dd880@mail.gmail.com> <1251411866.2923.159.camel@localhost> <604aa7910908271548r17edae2fkad40e748fa2ea75c@mail.gmail.com> <1251445335.2746.63.camel@localhost> <1251472545.2746.198.camel@localhost> <80d7e4090908280929w362bf0e5k4dbb6e60b2213256@mail.gmail.com> <6d4237680908281020h22c04cc2nde92f5302b8f85ca@mail.gmail.com> <20090828174310.GD20360@localhost.localdomain> <6d4237680908281115v7f630ceaj383276a203e170c0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A982442.3060504@redhat.com> On 08/28/2009 02:15 PM, Dimitris Glezos wrote: > Exactly how does our capability of enforcing the trademark to ONE BAD site change, > depending on 99 other sites which either have a signed agreement or > not? IANAL, so please keep that in mind. I'm sure that Luis or Pam will correct me if I am incorrect. :) My understanding is that the holder of registered trademarks have to "enforce the registration in the event of infringement" or they will lose the trademark. Basically, you have to be constantly vigilant or you are putting your trademark at serious risk. There are two simple ways to accomplish this: 1. Don't let anyone else use your registered trademark. 2. Require anyone who uses it to do so under explicit agreement from you, so that if they end up doing something to infringe your trademark, you have solid legal ground to stand on, and don't risk losing your trademark as a result. > My question still remains: Are these processes EFFECTIVE? Do we > protect the trademarks from the bad people, or are we just forbidding > old ladies from flying with nailclippers? They are. If we permitted anyone to do whatever they wanted to do with the Fedora trademark, then tried to go after someone who was using it maliciously, that malicious user would easily be able to argue that we had failed to enforce our trademarks, because everyone else was using our trademarks without permission (even though their use was not malicious). With the agreement in place, we can clearly indicate that the only authorized users are those who have been granted permission and are using our marks within the guidelines set out by us. (And, that the malicious user is outside of the bounds of that agreement, so it is even more clear that we do not consider their malicious use acceptable (even though they have not signed it). The trick here is to make those guidelines map up with the non-malicious use cases, basically, to permit our community to use them for "good". We have no intention of revoking use of the trademarks from anyone who is behaving within the bounds of the agreement. To abuse an analogy: If there is a sign at the town swimming pool, which lists the rules as follows: 1. No diving. 2. No eating in the pool. 3. No peeing in the pool. 4. Failure to follow the rules will result in immediate ejection from the pool. Most folks aren't going to dive or eat or pee in the pool. Some folks will think better of their cunning plan to pee in the pool when they think no one is looking. A select few will ignore the rules, but the lifeguard is going to point out the rules that they've broken when they're being tossed out. Without the rules, most folks aren't going to dive or eat or pee in the pool. Some folks will pee in the pool because they didn't know better. And those select few who want to cause trouble will loudly proclaim that because there were no rules for anyone, they're being unfairly singled out for their actions, and refuse to leave the pool. ***** I think the point that we should take away here is that yes, we need to have a Trademark License Agreement (in an ideal universe, perhaps not, but the one we live in requires it as a understood and accepted way to enforce trademark usage). Lets focus on the points where the agreement is unclear and work with Red Hat Legal to clarify or amend those sections. ~spot From luis.villa at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 18:45:41 2009 From: luis.villa at gmail.com (Luis Villa) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 14:45:41 -0400 Subject: The current Trademark License Agreement is unacceptable In-Reply-To: <4A982442.3060504@redhat.com> References: <20090827192212.GA4000@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910908271548r17edae2fkad40e748fa2ea75c@mail.gmail.com> <1251445335.2746.63.camel@localhost> <1251472545.2746.198.camel@localhost> <80d7e4090908280929w362bf0e5k4dbb6e60b2213256@mail.gmail.com> <6d4237680908281020h22c04cc2nde92f5302b8f85ca@mail.gmail.com> <20090828174310.GD20360@localhost.localdomain> <6d4237680908281115v7f630ceaj383276a203e170c0@mail.gmail.com> <4A982442.3060504@redhat.com> Message-ID: <2cb10c440908281145i226e10ffl2096d95ea1d4a280@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 2:38 PM, Tom "spot" Callaway wrote: > On 08/28/2009 02:15 PM, Dimitris Glezos wrote: >> Exactly how does our capability of enforcing the trademark to ONE BAD site change, >> depending on 99 other sites which either have a signed agreement or >> not? > > IANAL, so please keep that in mind. I'm sure that Luis or Pam will > correct me if I am incorrect. :) > > My understanding is that the holder of registered trademarks have to > "enforce the registration in the event of infringement" or they will > lose the trademark. Basically, you have to be constantly vigilant or you > are putting your trademark at serious risk. This is essentially correct. Close enough for our purposes at this time, at any rate. :) Luis From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 18:46:41 2009 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 10:46:41 -0800 Subject: The current Trademark License Agreement is unacceptable In-Reply-To: References: <1251383117.2923.85.camel@localhost> <1251411866.2923.159.camel@localhost> <604aa7910908271548r17edae2fkad40e748fa2ea75c@mail.gmail.com> <1251445335.2746.63.camel@localhost> <1251472545.2746.198.camel@localhost> <80d7e4090908280929w362bf0e5k4dbb6e60b2213256@mail.gmail.com> <6d4237680908281020h22c04cc2nde92f5302b8f85ca@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910908281037r3dc71c8tc7fd1a78e257adb0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910908281146t457d638aqc2619c6b2600fbaa@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 10:12 AM, inode0 wrote: > The use of Fedora trademarks without permission is granted in various > cases in the Trademark Guidelines. Is it not possible to craft a use > case here that would fall into that category and sufficiently cover > Red Hat's needs while not being a worrisome burden on our > contributors? Can you come up with an exhaustive and prescriptive definition of all categories of misuse that could be agreed on? I don't think you can. There is an inherent fuzziness with regard to what is and is not confusing usage..as a lot of it is in the context of how a mark is used and the intent thereof. We maybe able to easily write down a short list of activities we want to see the mark used for...but we aren't going to be able to prescriptively list everything that constitutes misuse...because misuse can and will be contextually. All this really boils down to whether or not its reasonable for a rights holder to be able to make the judgement as to what misuse is after the license is in place. Since an exhaustive definition of everything that encompasses all potential misuse is not available..I think its perfectly reasonable to expect a rights holder to keep the right to make that judgement as part of the decision process leading to license termination. Now there maybe a better way to word the termination clause to make it more palatable but I very much doubt the legal import of the clause will materially change. -jef From stickster at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 18:51:42 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 14:51:42 -0400 Subject: The current Trademark License Agreement is unacceptable In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440908281145i226e10ffl2096d95ea1d4a280@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910908271548r17edae2fkad40e748fa2ea75c@mail.gmail.com> <1251445335.2746.63.camel@localhost> <1251472545.2746.198.camel@localhost> <80d7e4090908280929w362bf0e5k4dbb6e60b2213256@mail.gmail.com> <6d4237680908281020h22c04cc2nde92f5302b8f85ca@mail.gmail.com> <20090828174310.GD20360@localhost.localdomain> <6d4237680908281115v7f630ceaj383276a203e170c0@mail.gmail.com> <4A982442.3060504@redhat.com> <2cb10c440908281145i226e10ffl2096d95ea1d4a280@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090828185142.GE23054@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 02:45:41PM -0400, Luis Villa wrote: > On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 2:38 PM, Tom "spot" Callaway wrote: > > On 08/28/2009 02:15 PM, Dimitris Glezos wrote: > >> Exactly how does our capability of enforcing the trademark to ONE BAD site change, > >> depending on 99 other sites which either have a signed agreement or > >> not? > > > > IANAL, so please keep that in mind. I'm sure that Luis or Pam will > > correct me if I am incorrect. :) > > > > My understanding is that the holder of registered trademarks have to > > "enforce the registration in the event of infringement" or they will > > lose the trademark. Basically, you have to be constantly vigilant or you > > are putting your trademark at serious risk. > > This is essentially correct. Close enough for our purposes at this > time, at any rate. :) And it's worth pointing out here, as at least some current and former Board members are aware, that Red Hat Legal continues to spend a significant amount of time actually fighting off "bad guys" who are trying to use the Fedora trademarks in an unpleasant or sometimes actually malicious manner. Thus far, to my knowledge, none of those people are Fedora community members. I would expect that we all as Fedora "friends" acknowledge that we don't personally want to eat, dive, or pee in the proverbial pool. :-) -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From pchestek at redhat.com Fri Aug 28 18:55:13 2009 From: pchestek at redhat.com (Pamela Chestek) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 14:55:13 -0400 Subject: Red Hat Comments on License Agreement Message-ID: <4A982811.7030401@redhat.com> Let me introduce myself. My name is Pam Chestek and I am the in-house Red Hat lawyer with the primary responsibility for trademarks company-wide. I wrote the original license and I am the person advising Fedora on it. First and foremost, let me say that Red Hat hugely values the Fedora community and the Fedora Project. It's important for you to know that when I do work on behalf of Fedora, my only responsibility is to do what's best for Fedora. The agreement is intended to protect the collective interest of the Fedora Project and community as a whole. You may not like how the agreement affects you as an individual, and you may disagree that the decisions accomplish the goal. But Red Hat has no hidden agenda and the only consideration when making decisions is Fedora's best interest. The feedback on the license has been invaluable and I thank everyone for their thoughtful review and input. A number of issues have been raised and I'll try to cover them all. First, on the translation. I did not provide a translation because for the most part you are reading the English version correctly. There are only a few places where I think there might be a misunderstanding, but they are only minor. So a German translation would not have solved the problem and would have added more problems, since there would be more discrepancies introduced by adding a second version. It makes sense to me to work out the issues in English without confusing things by adding another language. On to the issues in the agreement itself. One major sticking point is termination. There were three bases for termination in the original agreement, 3(a) for convenience, 3(b) for material breach, and 3(c) if there is a lawsuit. The purpose of Paragraph 3(a) was to give Fedora flexibility in what it does. For example, if the Fedora community decided that the ?Fedora? name didn't appropriately represent the project anymore and wanted to change it, all the licenses could be terminated and new ones granted for the new name. Because this has been so controversial, though, we can forgo the flexibility and eliminate this basis for termination. I don't think that 3(b) and 3(c) should be too controversial. I believe everyone agrees it's reasonable to terminate the license if one of the parties isn't meeting their responsibilities under the contract. I want to point out that the termination is not for any breach, but only for ?material? breach, which I'll talk about below. 3(c) is there because if there's a lawsuit, there must be a way to make immediate changes to avoid further damages. So, for example, if a licensee was sued for trademark infringement for its use of Fedora (a situation where Red Hat indemnifies the licensee), it might be reasonable to have the web site stop using the Fedora trademark to prevent further liability, so terminating the license would be an appropriate action. Another major issue is giving the domain name to the Fedora Project when the agreement terminates. It would be exceptionally damaging to the Fedora Project if a domain name that was previously used for the betterment of the project fell into the hands of wrongdoers and was used in a way harmful to Fedora. It would even be damaging if people were used to visiting a particular site for Fedora info but that site just wasn't there anymore, because we would have lost touch with community members and they might think less of Fedora because of it. It's just not in the best interest of the Fedora Project to let that happen. On indemnification, the agreement does not give Fedora the right to control what is on your web site (other than how you use the Fedora trademarks), so it seems only fair that everyone is responsible for what's in their own control. Take a hypothetical case where there was no indemnification provision and both you and Red Hat are sued for a claim unrelated to the trademark (a claim for a bad computer repair or something). Assume the court awards some amount of damages to the plaintiff on his or her claim. Since both of us were named as defendants we can both be held responsible for payment, but the payment will only be the amount awarded by the court (not doubled because there are two defendants). The only difference when there is an indemnification is that there is also a private agreement between us that, because you caused the claim and Red Hat had nothing to do with it, you will pay the whole amount. Likewise, if the only reason you are in the lawsuit is because you are using the Fedora trademark, Red Hat has to pay the whole amount. That seems fair. There was a lot of concern that failure to follow the guidelines would mean that the contract was breached and would terminate. That's not true at all. As I mentioned above, the contract will only terminate for ?material? breach of the contract, not minor ones. A law dictionary defines ?material breach? as ?violation of contract which is substantial and significant.? Things like forgetting to use the ? symbol would never be considered a material breach. We include the Guidelines as part of the agreement because fostering consistent use of the Fedora marks is a major goal of the contract, but it would take a flagrant disregard for the Guidelines before it would be considered a ?material? breach. Even then, in the case of a ?material? breach there is a cure provision; that is, before the agreement terminates we have to give you written notice of the breach and you have seven days to correct it. It is therefore just not possible that minor oversights in following the trademark guidelines would ever be a reason to terminate the agreement. There are several places where people have pointed out that following the guidelines wouldn't be possible. We can put language in the agreement that addresses those as necessary, for example, to clarify that if a site only mirrors then it is otherwise excused from the guidelines. There was another comment about having an English-language trademark legend on a German site; that's also a good point and we can change it to say that the legend should be in the language of the site. The concept that marking the Fedora mark but not others' might expose the web site owner to liability is not something I am familiar with, but I'm happy to try to accommodate concerns like these once I understand where the problem lies. With respect to a concern that the agreement means you will have to cease using ?Fedora? altogether if the license terminates, that is indeed what the agreement says, but that wasn't the intention and I will modify the agreement. The concept was that you would not have a license to use the trademarks, but you would still be able to use them in the same way that any other unlicensed person could use them under principles of fair use. I will change the sentence to read ?The license to use the Licensor's Trademarks will cease immediately upon the termination or expiration of this Agreement.? I'll delete the remainder of the sentence. Will that be acceptable? There was also a comment suggesting that those who signed the license were obliged to use the Infinity logo. That's not true; there is nothing in the agreement or the guidelines that requires use of a trademark. Instead, the agreement only says that if you use the Fedora name or logos, you have to use them properly. There was one very good comment that both sides expect to gain from entering into a contract. That's true and I hope is the case here. The principle purpose of the license is to allow widespread use of the Fedora trademarks, but making sure it is done consistently and always with a clear reference to the Fedora Project. Consistent use is critical to building a strong, recognizable trademark, which in turn increases the visibility of the Fedora Project and the community. I hope everyone agrees that this is a valuable benefit to everyone. There's another critical benefit to the community. An unlicensed use is an infringement (assuming it's not a fair use). If the Fedora Project tolerates some infringements, even ?friendly? ones, the day will someday come when it could not take any action against a harmful, confusing use and the community's unique identity will fade away. If instead the Fedora community makes sure that the appropriate licenses are in place, the identity that we share collectively remains strong and vibrant for all our benefit. I welcome your comments. -- Pamela S. Chestek Senior IP Attorney Red Hat, Inc. 1801 Varsity Drive Raleigh, NC 27606 919-754-4473 pchestek at redhat.com From inode0 at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 18:56:32 2009 From: inode0 at gmail.com (inode0) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 13:56:32 -0500 Subject: The current Trademark License Agreement is unacceptable In-Reply-To: <604aa7910908281146t457d638aqc2619c6b2600fbaa@mail.gmail.com> References: <1251383117.2923.85.camel@localhost> <604aa7910908271548r17edae2fkad40e748fa2ea75c@mail.gmail.com> <1251445335.2746.63.camel@localhost> <1251472545.2746.198.camel@localhost> <80d7e4090908280929w362bf0e5k4dbb6e60b2213256@mail.gmail.com> <6d4237680908281020h22c04cc2nde92f5302b8f85ca@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910908281037r3dc71c8tc7fd1a78e257adb0@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910908281146t457d638aqc2619c6b2600fbaa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 1:46 PM, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 10:12 AM, inode0 wrote: >> The use of Fedora trademarks without permission is granted in various >> cases in the Trademark Guidelines. Is it not possible to craft a use >> case here that would fall into that category and sufficiently cover >> Red Hat's needs while not being a worrisome burden on our >> contributors? > > Can you come up with an exhaustive and prescriptive definition of all > categories of misuse that could be agreed on? ?I don't think you can. > There is an inherent fuzziness with regard to what is and is not > confusing usage..as a lot of it is in the context of how a mark is > used and the intent thereof. We maybe able to easily write down a > short list of activities we want to see the mark used for...but we > aren't going to be able to prescriptively list everything that > constitutes misuse...because misuse can and will be contextually. Why should I be asked to do this? The current Trademark Guidelines have a section titled: Usage That Does Not Require Permission. My question above was whether one additional permitted use case could be crafted to add to the existing list that would cover some of the area of concern being discussed in this thread. > All this really boils down to whether or not its reasonable for a > rights holder to be able to make the judgement as to what misuse is > after the license is in place. ?Since an exhaustive definition of > everything that encompasses all potential misuse is not available..I > think its perfectly reasonable to expect a rights holder to keep the > right to make that judgement as part of the decision process leading > to license termination. Now there maybe a better way to word the > termination clause to make it more palatable but I very much doubt the > legal import of the clause will materially change. This is entirely a different matter. We don't ask authors for example to sign any agreement. We say in advance you may use our trademarks under these conditions without further bother. Why are they, as one example, exempted from signing an agreement to use the trademarks when our own contributors aren't? John From stickster at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 19:00:30 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 15:00:30 -0400 Subject: Red Hat Comments on License Agreement In-Reply-To: <4A982811.7030401@redhat.com> References: <4A982811.7030401@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20090828190030.GF23054@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 02:55:13PM -0400, Pamela Chestek wrote: > Let me introduce myself. My name is Pam Chestek and I am the in-house > Red Hat lawyer with the primary responsibility for trademarks > company-wide. I wrote the original license and I am the person advising > Fedora on it. [...] Pam, before a thread commences to explore the details of what you've posted, thank you for being available to interface directly with the community here on the FAB list. I'm sure the conversation will benefit a lot from your expertise and experience. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From stickster at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 19:46:53 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 15:46:53 -0400 Subject: The current Trademark License Agreement is unacceptable In-Reply-To: References: <604aa7910908271548r17edae2fkad40e748fa2ea75c@mail.gmail.com> <1251445335.2746.63.camel@localhost> <1251472545.2746.198.camel@localhost> <80d7e4090908280929w362bf0e5k4dbb6e60b2213256@mail.gmail.com> <6d4237680908281020h22c04cc2nde92f5302b8f85ca@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910908281037r3dc71c8tc7fd1a78e257adb0@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910908281146t457d638aqc2619c6b2600fbaa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090828194653.GH23054@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 01:56:32PM -0500, inode0 wrote: > On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 1:46 PM, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 10:12 AM, inode0 wrote: > >> The use of Fedora trademarks without permission is granted in various > >> cases in the Trademark Guidelines. Is it not possible to craft a use > >> case here that would fall into that category and sufficiently cover > >> Red Hat's needs while not being a worrisome burden on our > >> contributors? > > > > Can you come up with an exhaustive and prescriptive definition of all > > categories of misuse that could be agreed on? ?I don't think you can. > > There is an inherent fuzziness with regard to what is and is not > > confusing usage..as a lot of it is in the context of how a mark is > > used and the intent thereof. We maybe able to easily write down a > > short list of activities we want to see the mark used for...but we > > aren't going to be able to prescriptively list everything that > > constitutes misuse...because misuse can and will be contextually. > > Why should I be asked to do this? The current Trademark Guidelines > have a section titled: Usage That Does Not Require Permission. My > question above was whether one additional permitted use case could be > crafted to add to the existing list that would cover some of the area > of concern being discussed in this thread. I'm not sure that's possible to do. How would you phrase such a use case? "Anyone may register a domain with 'fedora' in it if..." No wait, we already goofed, because that means now it might be incumbent on us to proactively police all new domain registrations or risk loss of trademark integrity. Not to mention the difficulty of getting a domain *de-registered* once it's out there, even if we could manage that policing effectively. > > All this really boils down to whether or not its reasonable for a > > rights holder to be able to make the judgement as to what misuse is > > after the license is in place. ?Since an exhaustive definition of > > everything that encompasses all potential misuse is not available..I > > think its perfectly reasonable to expect a rights holder to keep the > > right to make that judgement as part of the decision process leading > > to license termination. Now there maybe a better way to word the > > termination clause to make it more palatable but I very much doubt the > > legal import of the clause will materially change. > > This is entirely a different matter. We don't ask authors for example > to sign any agreement. We say in advance you may use our trademarks > under these conditions without further bother. Why are they, as one > example, exempted from signing an agreement to use the trademarks when > our own contributors aren't? Because AIUI it's almost impossible to enforce trademarks in the case of books written for purposes like academic study, such as books on how to use the Fedora distribution. I believe this might also be true of books such as a hypothetical "My Life in the Fedora Project" (M. Spevack, Wiley & Sons). We simply require among other minimal protections that authors don't claim that we endorsed their books. It's probably also fair to note that publishers, in general, are pretty cautious over the use of any trademarks, which isn't true of the average Internet denizen. (Note that's general Internet population, not Fedora community members, who I think are generally far more mindful of such things.) -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From inode0 at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 20:14:32 2009 From: inode0 at gmail.com (inode0) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 15:14:32 -0500 Subject: The current Trademark License Agreement is unacceptable In-Reply-To: <20090828194653.GH23054@localhost.localdomain> References: <604aa7910908271548r17edae2fkad40e748fa2ea75c@mail.gmail.com> <1251472545.2746.198.camel@localhost> <80d7e4090908280929w362bf0e5k4dbb6e60b2213256@mail.gmail.com> <6d4237680908281020h22c04cc2nde92f5302b8f85ca@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910908281037r3dc71c8tc7fd1a78e257adb0@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910908281146t457d638aqc2619c6b2600fbaa@mail.gmail.com> <20090828194653.GH23054@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 2:46 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 01:56:32PM -0500, inode0 wrote: >> On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 1:46 PM, Jeff Spaleta wrote: >> > On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 10:12 AM, inode0 wrote: >> >> The use of Fedora trademarks without permission is granted in various >> >> cases in the Trademark Guidelines. Is it not possible to craft a use >> >> case here that would fall into that category and sufficiently cover >> >> Red Hat's needs while not being a worrisome burden on our >> >> contributors? >> > >> > Can you come up with an exhaustive and prescriptive definition of all >> > categories of misuse that could be agreed on? ?I don't think you can. >> > There is an inherent fuzziness with regard to what is and is not >> > confusing usage..as a lot of it is in the context of how a mark is >> > used and the intent thereof. We maybe able to easily write down a >> > short list of activities we want to see the mark used for...but we >> > aren't going to be able to prescriptively list everything that >> > constitutes misuse...because misuse can and will be contextually. >> >> Why should I be asked to do this? The current Trademark Guidelines >> have a section titled: Usage That Does Not Require Permission. My >> question above was whether one additional permitted use case could be >> crafted to add to the existing list that would cover some of the area >> of concern being discussed in this thread. > > I'm not sure that's possible to do. ?How would you phrase such a use > case? ?"Anyone may register a domain with 'fedora' in it if..." ?No > wait, we already goofed, because that means now it might be incumbent > on us to proactively police all new domain registrations or risk loss > of trademark integrity. ?Not to mention the difficulty of getting a > domain *de-registered* once it's out there, even if we could manage > that policing effectively. Oh, I wouldn't care to suggest a phrasing. There are lawyers and Fedora Board members who need to figure that part out. I just inquired if it might be possible. The plain fact is that some people are granted permission to use the trademarks without asking for permission and without signing any agreements. So it seems reasonable to think that it might be possible. Just me holding out some small glimmer of hope that we could sneak through a crack in the window to alleviate some of the expressed discomfort ... >> > All this really boils down to whether or not its reasonable for a >> > rights holder to be able to make the judgement as to what misuse is >> > after the license is in place. ?Since an exhaustive definition of >> > everything that encompasses all potential misuse is not available..I >> > think its perfectly reasonable to expect a rights holder to keep the >> > right to make that judgement as part of the decision process leading >> > to license termination. Now there maybe a better way to word the >> > termination clause to make it more palatable but I very much doubt the >> > legal import of the clause will materially change. >> >> This is entirely a different matter. We don't ask authors for example >> to sign any agreement. We say in advance you may use our trademarks >> under these conditions without further bother. Why are they, as one >> example, exempted from signing an agreement to use the trademarks when >> our own contributors aren't? > > Because AIUI it's almost impossible to enforce trademarks in the case > of books written for purposes like academic study, such as books on > how to use the Fedora distribution. ?I believe this might also be true > of books such as a hypothetical "My Life in the Fedora Project" > (M. Spevack, Wiley & Sons). ?We simply require among other minimal > protections that authors don't claim that we endorsed their books. > It's probably also fair to note that publishers, in general, are > pretty cautious over the use of any trademarks, which isn't true of > the average Internet denizen. ?(Note that's general Internet > population, not Fedora community members, who I think are generally > far more mindful of such things.) In the age of self-published books I think relying on care from publishers is losing its effectiveness judging from books that I've seen. But this still leaves me wondering why we can't simply require domain holders to do x, y, and z in a similar fashion. Having I think made my point, I'll leave it now for others to dismiss or pursue as they see fit. I would not be surprised if it was considered and dismissed way back when for good reasons. John From david at gnsa.us Fri Aug 28 20:34:13 2009 From: david at gnsa.us (David Nalley) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 16:34:13 -0400 Subject: Red Hat Comments on License Agreement In-Reply-To: <4A982811.7030401@redhat.com> References: <4A982811.7030401@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 2:55 PM, Pamela Chestek wrote: > Let me introduce myself. My name is Pam Chestek and I am the in-house Red > Hat lawyer with the primary responsibility for trademarks company-wide. I > wrote the original license and I am the person advising Fedora on it. > > First and foremost, let me say that Red Hat hugely values the Fedora > community and the Fedora Project. It's important for you to know that when I > do work on behalf of Fedora, my only responsibility is to do what's best for > Fedora. The agreement is intended to protect the collective interest of the > Fedora Project and community as a whole. You may not like how the agreement > affects you as an individual, and you may disagree that the decisions > accomplish the goal. But Red Hat has no hidden agenda and the only > consideration when making decisions is Fedora's best interest. > > The feedback on the license has been invaluable and I thank everyone for > their thoughtful review and input. A number of issues have been raised and > I'll try to cover them all. > > First, on the translation. I did not provide a translation because for the > most part you are reading the English version correctly. There are only a > few places where I think there might be a misunderstanding, but they are > only minor. So a German translation would not have solved the problem and > would have added more problems, since there would be more discrepancies > introduced by adding a second version. It makes sense to me to work out the > issues in English without confusing things by adding another language. > > On to the issues in the agreement itself. One major sticking point is > termination. There were three bases for termination in the original > agreement, 3(a) for convenience, 3(b) for material breach, and 3(c) if there > is a lawsuit. The purpose of Paragraph 3(a) was to give Fedora flexibility > in what it does. For example, if the Fedora community decided that the > ?Fedora? name didn't appropriately represent the project anymore and wanted > to change it, all the licenses could be terminated and new ones granted for > the new name. Because this has been so controversial, though, we can forgo > the flexibility and eliminate this basis for termination. > > I don't think that 3(b) and 3(c) should be too controversial. I believe > everyone agrees it's reasonable to terminate the license if one of the > parties isn't meeting their responsibilities under the contract. I want to > point out that the termination is not for any breach, but only for > ?material? breach, which I'll talk about below. > > 3(c) is there because if there's a lawsuit, there must be a way to make > immediate changes to avoid further damages. So, for example, if a licensee > was sued for trademark infringement for its use of Fedora (a situation where > Red Hat indemnifies the licensee), it might be reasonable to have the web > site stop using the Fedora trademark to prevent further liability, so > terminating the license would be an appropriate action. > > Another major issue is giving the domain name to the Fedora Project when the > agreement terminates. It would be exceptionally damaging to the Fedora > Project if a domain name that was previously used for the betterment of the > project fell into the hands of wrongdoers and was used in a way harmful to > Fedora. It would even be damaging if people were used to visiting a > particular site for Fedora info but that site just wasn't there anymore, > because we would have lost touch with community members and they might think > less of Fedora because of it. It's just not in the best interest of the > Fedora Project to let that happen. > > On indemnification, the agreement does not give Fedora the right to control > what is on your web site (other than how you use the Fedora trademarks), so > it seems only fair that everyone is responsible for what's in their own > control. > > Take a hypothetical case where there was no indemnification provision and > both you and Red Hat are sued for a claim unrelated to the trademark (a > claim for a bad computer repair or something). Assume the court awards some > amount of damages to the plaintiff on his or her claim. Since both of us > were named as defendants we can both be held responsible for payment, but > the payment will only be the amount awarded by the court (not doubled > because there are two defendants). The only difference when there is an > indemnification is that there is also a private agreement between us that, > because you caused the claim and Red Hat had nothing to do with it, you will > pay the whole amount. Likewise, if the only reason you are in the lawsuit is > because you are using the Fedora trademark, Red Hat has to pay the whole > amount. That seems fair. > > There was a lot of concern that failure to follow the guidelines would mean > that the contract was breached and would terminate. That's not true at all. > As I mentioned above, the contract will only terminate for ?material? breach > of the contract, not minor ones. A law dictionary defines ?material breach? > as ?violation of contract which is substantial and significant.? Things like > forgetting to use the ? symbol would never be considered a material breach. > We include the Guidelines as part of the agreement because fostering > consistent use of the Fedora marks is a major goal of the contract, but it > would take a flagrant disregard for the Guidelines before it would be > considered a ?material? breach. Even then, in the case of a ?material? > breach there is a cure provision; that is, before the agreement terminates > we have to give you written notice of the breach and you have seven days to > correct it. It is therefore just not possible that minor oversights in > following the trademark guidelines would ever be a reason to terminate the > agreement. > > There are several places where people have pointed out that following the > guidelines wouldn't be possible. We can put language in the agreement that > addresses those as necessary, for example, to clarify that if a site only > mirrors then it is otherwise excused from the guidelines. > > There was another comment about having an English-language trademark legend > on a German site; that's also a good point and we can change it to say that > the legend should be in the language of the site. > > The concept that marking the Fedora mark but not others' might expose the > web site owner to liability is not something I am familiar with, but I'm > happy to try to accommodate concerns like these once I understand where the > problem lies. > > With respect to a concern that the agreement means you will have to cease > using ?Fedora? altogether if the license terminates, that is indeed what the > agreement says, but that wasn't the intention and I will modify the > agreement. The concept was that you would not have a license to use the > trademarks, but you would still be able to use them in the same way that any > other unlicensed person could use them under principles of fair use. I will > change the sentence to read ?The license to use the Licensor's Trademarks > will cease immediately upon the termination or expiration of this > Agreement.? I'll delete the remainder of the sentence. Will that be > acceptable? > > There was also a comment suggesting that those who signed the license were > obliged to use the Infinity logo. That's not true; there is nothing in the > agreement or the guidelines that requires use of a trademark. Instead, the > agreement only says that if you use the Fedora name or logos, you have to > use them properly. > > There was one very good comment that both sides expect to gain from entering > into a contract. That's true and I hope is the case here. The principle > purpose of the license is to allow widespread use of the Fedora trademarks, > but making sure it is done consistently and always with a clear reference to > the Fedora Project. Consistent use is critical to building a strong, > recognizable trademark, which in turn increases the visibility of the Fedora > Project and the community. I hope everyone agrees that this is a valuable > benefit to everyone. > > There's another critical benefit to the community. An unlicensed use is an > infringement (assuming it's not a fair use). If the Fedora Project tolerates > some infringements, even ?friendly? ones, the day will someday come when it > could not take any action against a harmful, confusing use and the > community's unique identity will fade away. If instead the Fedora community > makes sure that the appropriate licenses are in place, the identity that we > share collectively remains strong and vibrant for all our benefit. > > I welcome your comments. > -- > > Pamela S. Chestek > Senior IP Attorney > Red Hat, Inc. > 1801 Varsity Drive > Raleigh, NC 27606 > 919-754-4473 > pchestek at redhat.com > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board > So I don't have a stake in the underlying conversation, but it's times like this that I am reminded how awesome the free software/open source community is, and even more so how companies within that community who grok open source. Just days ago I marvelled at how Mo noted that there was a problem with playing certain video files within gstreamer - and within hours there was a bug filed, a temporary workaround, and someone within gstreamer committed a fix. Despite how awesome that is, this kind of solution happens all the time in the community. Now fast forward to today, and we have a 'Senior IP Attorney' at a major company communicating directly with community members, and working to address concerns of community. That is awesome!!! I am impressed every time I see Richard Fontana, and more recently Pamela Chestek showing up on Fedora mailing lists, and specifically because they are spending the time to address concerns of the community. You guys are to be commended for this as is RHT for letting you do this. From loupgaroublond at gmail.com Fri Aug 28 21:54:37 2009 From: loupgaroublond at gmail.com (Yaakov Nemoy) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 23:54:37 +0200 Subject: Red Hat Comments on License Agreement In-Reply-To: <4A982811.7030401@redhat.com> References: <4A982811.7030401@redhat.com> Message-ID: <7f692fec0908281454m54e8a80cs4cac4b97e78745ef@mail.gmail.com> Thanks, Pamela, for all the comments. I've been watching this thread and this does clear up alot of questions. Let me just make some philosophical points. 2009/8/28 Pamela Chestek : > There was one very good comment that both sides expect to gain from entering > into a contract. That's true and I hope is the case here. The principle > purpose of the license is to allow widespread use of the Fedora trademarks, > but making sure it is done consistently and always with a clear reference to > the Fedora Project. Consistent use is critical to building a strong, > recognizable trademark, which in turn increases the visibility of the Fedora > Project and the community. I hope everyone agrees that this is a valuable > benefit to everyone. > > There's another critical benefit to the community. An unlicensed use is an > infringement (assuming it's not a fair use). If the Fedora Project tolerates > some infringements, even ?friendly? ones, the day will someday come when it > could not take any action against a harmful, confusing use and the > community's unique identity will fade away. If instead the Fedora community > makes sure that the appropriate licenses are in place, the identity that we > share collectively remains strong and vibrant for all our benefit. > > I welcome your comments. In simple words, the benefit is more central control of the Trademark in order to strengthen the identity of the community, under this trademark. With little comment on where i stand on the issue, there are many people who don't always see eye to eye on this sort of issue. They prefer the anarchy that comes with a decentralized control over the trademark, because it's not important to be centrally organized. Some people aren't always necessarily fans of centralized organizations, and there are a number of reasons why. I'm going to skip over the arguments why one way or another is bad or good. Since Fedora does consist of a very international and diverse community, sufficed to say, there are a number of people in the community who do think this way. Your points do clarify where RH is going with this, and how it benefits the community, but i can imagine from some point of views, these comments are just going to make it worse in their eyes. And no, i don't have an answer that's going to satisfy any of them, because that would just be sugar coating it. I can't answer which works better, centralized organisation or decentralized. I think i would need a few more university degrees to even begin answering it. Still, i want to point out the that the community is not the trademark. The community is a community, no matter how we organize ourselves. From a practical standpoint, the trademark is the property of Red Hat and is a gift to the community along with the manpower that Red Hat also contributes via people working on Fedora part or full time. Everyone here contributes to the community, even if it's just posting to f-devel. (Personally, every time i feel like posting something there that isn't 100% technical, i save money to buy someone a beer.) The trademark, in my eyes is part of RH's contribution. But we all know what happens to that one kid who takes his ball home early ;) -Yaakov "i contribute to free and open source software by buying beer" Nemoy From fedora at ml.shredzone.de Fri Aug 28 21:27:07 2009 From: fedora at ml.shredzone.de (Richard Koerber) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 23:27:07 +0200 Subject: Red Hat Comments on License Agreement In-Reply-To: <4A982811.7030401@redhat.com> References: <4A982811.7030401@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4A984BAB.6070402@ml.shredzone.de> Pam, first of all, thank you for your detailed answer, which I really appreciate. Let me comment your answer at the parts that were important for me. > [Indemnification] Likewise, > if the only reason you are in the lawsuit is because you are using the > Fedora trademark, Red Hat has to pay the whole amount. That seems fair. Just a question here: Does this part of the indemnification apply world-wide? > There was a lot of concern that failure to follow the guidelines would > mean that the contract was breached and would terminate. That's not true > at all. As I mentioned above, the contract will only terminate for > ?material? breach of the contract, not minor ones. A law dictionary > defines ?material breach? as ?violation of contract which is substantial > and significant.? Things like forgetting to use the ? symbol would never > be considered a material breach. [...] Even > then, in the case of a ?material? breach there is a cure provision; that > is, before the agreement terminates we have to give you written notice > of the breach and you have seven days to correct it. This was a major concern for me, and it's good to know that a minor breach would not violate the contract. This is especially important for forums and comment areas, where visitors can post freely. It would be a bad thing if a visitor's post would lead to the termination of the contract. There should be a certain level of tolerance, for example if someone posts "Fuhdora Project"... > There was another comment about having an English-language trademark > legend on a German site; that's also a good point and we can change it > to say that the legend should be in the language of the site. Allowing a legend in the site's local language would be very helpful for everyone, I think. What would be the use of an English legend if the majority of the visitors speak another language? :) > The concept that marking the Fedora mark but not others' might expose > the web site owner to liability is not something I am familiar with, but > I'm happy to try to accommodate concerns like these once I understand > where the problem lies. Okay, it was me who said this. I hope I can explain what I mean... If I would start to write "Fedora?", but would not write a trademark symbol for (let's say) "Intel", a visitor could conclude that Fedora is a registered trademark, and Intel is not. I am afraid I could then be a target for a trademark infringement claim from Intel. :) (Remember: German law applies.) So, once I'd start placing trademark symbols, I would have to do trademark recherces for every word I use, to properly place all the trademark symbols where required. I just cannot do that for obivous reasons. Thus, on my site's imprint, I state that I do not use trademark symbols, and the absence does not necessarily mean that there is no trademark existing. This is a common practice in Germany, for example in computer literature. > With respect to a concern that the agreement means you will have to > cease using ?Fedora? altogether if the license terminates, that is > indeed what the agreement says, but that wasn't the intention and I will > modify the agreement. The concept was that you would not have a license > to use the trademarks, but you would still be able to use them in the > same way that any other unlicensed person could use them under > principles of fair use. I will change the sentence to read ?The license > to use the Licensor's Trademarks will cease immediately upon the > termination or expiration of this Agreement.? I'll delete the remainder > of the sentence. Will that be acceptable? AFAIK there is no "fair use" concept in German law, but I know what you mean. After all, it is no trademark infringement if, for example, a trademark is used in a news report or a customer's post in a forum. For me it is crucial that I am still allowed to publish my intellectual property about Fedora, even if, for example, I terminate the contract because I shut down the site for financial reasons. > There was also a comment suggesting that those who signed the license > were obliged to use the Infinity logo. That's not true; there is nothing > in the agreement or the guidelines that requires use of a trademark. > Instead, the agreement only says that if you use the Fedora name or > logos, you have to use them properly. Then it was a misunderstanding. I am glad to hear that. Pam, your posting was the first one that really addressed my concerns, and I am relieved that they can be resolved. Thanks again for your work, and for joining the discussion. -- Richard From bob at fedoraunity.org Fri Aug 28 22:38:43 2009 From: bob at fedoraunity.org (Robert 'Bob' Jensen) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 22:38:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: The current Trademark License Agreement is unacceptable In-Reply-To: <1251383117.2923.85.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <16569654.57531251499123072.JavaMail.root@zimbra.cbccgroup.com> I refuse to handle contract negotiations on a public mailing list to be archived forever by some third party. -- Bob ------------------------------------------------------------------------ | Robert 'Bob' Jensen || Fedora Unity Founder | | bob at fedoraunity.org || http://fedoraunity.org/ | | http://bjensen.fedorapeople.org/ | | http://blogs.fedoraunity.org/bobjensen | ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From pchestek at redhat.com Fri Aug 28 22:39:25 2009 From: pchestek at redhat.com (Pamela Chestek) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 18:39:25 -0400 Subject: Red Hat Comments on License Agreement In-Reply-To: <4A984BAB.6070402@ml.shredzone.de> References: <4A982811.7030401@redhat.com> <4A984BAB.6070402@ml.shredzone.de> Message-ID: <4A985C9D.4050602@redhat.com> Richard Koerber wrote on 08/28/2009 05:27 PM: >> [Indemnification] Likewise, >> if the only reason you are in the lawsuit is because you are using the >> Fedora trademark, Red Hat has to pay the whole amount. That seems fair. >> > > Just a question here: Does this part of the indemnification apply world-wide? > Not quite. The indemnification clause says we will indemnify for trademark infringement only in those countries where the trademark is registered. It is registered in Germany (all of the EU, so Austria too) and the United States, so we would indemnify in those countries. If you have a German web site it's unlikely that you would be sued in some other random country, although I can't say it would never happen. To avoid the question, I'd rather not give a list of countries where FEDORA is registered. Since this is a public list, I'd rather not identify the countries where we don't yet have registrations, because it would make it much easier for someone to know where to go to file an application and try to steal the mark. If anyone has questions about a particular country, please contact me off-list. > > This was a major concern for me, and it's good to know that a minor breach > would not violate the contract. > > This is especially important for forums and comment areas, where visitors can > post freely. It would be a bad thing if a visitor's post would lead to the > termination of the contract. There should be a certain level of tolerance, for > example if someone posts "Fuhdora Project"... > I'm glad to hear I could clarify it. It shouldn't be a major concern and we try not to have unreasonable expectations. And I'm sure you'd let us know if they were unreasonable! ;-) > If I would start to write "Fedora?", but would not write a trademark symbol > for (let's say) "Intel", a visitor could conclude that Fedora is a registered > trademark, and Intel is not. I am afraid I could then be a target for a > trademark infringement claim from Intel. :) (Remember: German law applies.) > Do you know for a fact that this is true under German law? If you could point me to a reference that would be very helpful. I don't know, although I can ask German colleagues about it. The statement you use is one that a trademark owner and its licensees would use for their own protection (defensively), but it seems unusual to me that a company could make an offensive claim against you for inconsistent marking. If that's the case under German law though, we're happy to accommodate it. > > For me it is crucial that I am still allowed to publish my intellectual > property about Fedora, even if, for example, I terminate the contract because > I shut down the site for financial reasons. > You would still own your own intellectual property, although your use of the Fedora trademarks would have to be fair use (or the equivalent concept locally). > > Pam, your posting was the first one that really addressed my concerns, and I > am relieved that they can be resolved. Thanks again for your work, and for > joining the discussion. > I'm very glad I could answer your questions, and even more glad that my information addressed your concerns positively. Pam From tcallawa at redhat.com Fri Aug 28 23:36:15 2009 From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom "spot" Callaway) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 19:36:15 -0400 Subject: The current Trademark License Agreement is unacceptable In-Reply-To: <16569654.57531251499123072.JavaMail.root@zimbra.cbccgroup.com> References: <16569654.57531251499123072.JavaMail.root@zimbra.cbccgroup.com> Message-ID: <4A9869EF.8070402@redhat.com> On 08/28/2009 06:38 PM, Robert 'Bob' Jensen wrote: > I refuse to handle contract negotiations on a public mailing list to be archived forever by some third party. Then, Bob, don't. :) No one's forcing you to, or even, asking you to have these discussions in public. ~spot From fedora at ml.shredzone.de Mon Aug 31 08:03:42 2009 From: fedora at ml.shredzone.de (=?windows-1252?Q?Richard_K=F6rber?=) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 10:03:42 +0200 Subject: Red Hat Comments on License Agreement In-Reply-To: <4A985C9D.4050602@redhat.com> References: <4A982811.7030401@redhat.com> <4A984BAB.6070402@ml.shredzone.de> <4A985C9D.4050602@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4A9B83DE.8020407@ml.shredzone.de> >> If I would start to write "Fedora?", but would not write a trademark >> symbol >> for (let's say) "Intel", a visitor could conclude that Fedora is a >> registered >> trademark, and Intel is not. I am afraid I could then be a target for a >> trademark infringement claim from Intel. :) (Remember: German law >> applies.) >> > Do you know for a fact that this is true under German law? If you could > point me to a reference that would be very helpful. There is no precedence for my example. Anyhow there is a legal construction called "St?rerhaftung" (verbatim translated as "disturbance liability"), which (simply spoken, as I am not a lawyer) makes me liable for helping on trademark infringements. For example, if I link to a page that infringes a trademark, I can be sued for placing that link even if I wasn't aware of that infringement. Some "black sheep lawyers" make a fortune with that construction. I just want to try my best to stay in safe waters, by refraining from experiments with trademark signs. ;-) The trademark guidelines talk about the "first instance of the trademark". If I understand it correctly, it is not required to place a trademark sign on any occurance of "Fedora". But what exactly is the "first instance"? Maybe we can find a win-win situation here. -- Richard From pchestek at redhat.com Mon Aug 31 17:53:58 2009 From: pchestek at redhat.com (Pamela Chestek) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 13:53:58 -0400 Subject: Red Hat Comments on License Agreement In-Reply-To: <4A9B83DE.8020407@ml.shredzone.de> References: <4A982811.7030401@redhat.com> <4A984BAB.6070402@ml.shredzone.de> <4A985C9D.4050602@redhat.com> <4A9B83DE.8020407@ml.shredzone.de> Message-ID: <4A9C0E36.6020206@redhat.com> Richard K?rber wrote on 08/31/2009 04:03 AM: >>> If I would start to write "Fedora?", but would not write a trademark >>> symbol >>> for (let's say) "Intel", a visitor could conclude that Fedora is a >>> registered >>> trademark, and Intel is not. I am afraid I could then be a target for a >>> trademark infringement claim from Intel. :) (Remember: German law >>> applies.) >>> >>> >> Do you know for a fact that this is true under German law? If you could >> point me to a reference that would be very helpful. >> > > There is no precedence for my example. Anyhow there is a legal > construction called "St?rerhaftung" (verbatim translated as "disturbance > liability"), which (simply spoken, as I am not a lawyer) makes me liable > for helping on trademark infringements. > > For example, if I link to a page that infringes a trademark, I can be > sued for placing that link even if I wasn't aware of that infringement. > Some "black sheep lawyers" make a fortune with that construction. I just > want to try my best to stay in safe waters, by refraining from > experiments with trademark signs. ;-) > > The trademark guidelines talk about the "first instance of the > trademark". If I understand it correctly, it is not required to place a > trademark sign on any occurance of "Fedora". But what exactly is the > "first instance"? Maybe we can find a win-win situation here. > > Thanks for the information. I've posted a general question to a listserv of trademark lawyers to see what other trademark lawyers might think about it. Which may not mean much; if a listserv told me not to worry I'm not sure that the advice would be good enough for me. But at least we may get some more information. The "first instance" standard is pretty commonplace. Normally I recommend using it in title bars and headings, and then the first time it's used in the text. But as far as I know there's no country that says specifically where you have to use the symbol. Do you have an idea for a way it would work for you? Pamela From fedora at ml.shredzone.de Mon Aug 31 19:49:27 2009 From: fedora at ml.shredzone.de (Richard Koerber) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 21:49:27 +0200 Subject: Red Hat Comments on License Agreement In-Reply-To: <4A9C0E36.6020206@redhat.com> References: <4A982811.7030401@redhat.com> <4A984BAB.6070402@ml.shredzone.de> <4A985C9D.4050602@redhat.com> <4A9B83DE.8020407@ml.shredzone.de> <4A9C0E36.6020206@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4A9C2947.5030701@ml.shredzone.de> > The "first instance" standard is pretty commonplace. Normally I > recommend using it in title bars and headings, and then the first time > it's used in the text. But as far as I know there's no country that > says specifically where you have to use the symbol. Do you have an idea > for a way it would work for you? Well, yes. There is a common page that is required by law on virtually all German web sites. It's the "contact" page, or more commonly called "imprint". This page must be easily reachable from any other page (this is, it must not be hidden or take several clicks to reach it). On this page contact addresses and tax information (for commercial sites) are mandatory, but usually there are also terms of use, disclaimers, copyright notes, trademark information and other legal stuff to be found there. I think this would be the best place for trademark notes regarding Fedora, and also very likely the first page where people would look for such information. Would this be acceptable for the TLA? Well, so far I have talked for my own concerns. What is with the other people in Christoph's thread? Any comments, anyone? -- Richard