From inode0 at gmail.com Tue Dec 1 05:48:29 2009 From: inode0 at gmail.com (inode0) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 23:48:29 -0600 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2009-11-19 UTC 1700 In-Reply-To: <4B0B24F5.7050305@redhat.com> References: <20091120042204.GO29686@victoria.internal.frields.org> <4B0B24F5.7050305@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 6:12 PM, John Poelstra wrote: > On 11/21/2009 09:18 AM, inode0 wrote: >> >> So here is what I would suggest at this point in time if the board >> would like to try to help fund some part of the FreeMedia project as >> an experiment. We tend to have inordinately large numbers of requests >> from certain regions (these are large because of need in those >> regions). I think we should work with Susmit to see if there is a way >> to provide some direct help to a small number of contributors in India >> to help with the volume of requests in that region. I think we could >> learn a lot by doing that and help where the problem is the most >> severe today. >> > > Can you be more specific about how the board would fund the FreeMedia > project as an experiment? > ?--How much funding would the board need to provide for this experiment? > ?--How many requests per month in Susmit's region do you receive? ?How many > go unfilled each month? After chatting with Susmit about this it doesn't appear that we can solve the problem there by throwing media or money at the region. Basically, if we provided X it would be consumed and another X would be needed. So some structural change is necessary to fundamentally fix things and he is working on that now as he has described in another thread recently. So I am out of ideas about how the board can help beyond giving us some moral support. :) We do appreciate that. John From baransels at fedoraproject.org Tue Dec 1 07:13:51 2009 From: baransels at fedoraproject.org (=?UTF-8?B?QmFyYW5zZWwgU2HEn8SxbmRhIC0gRmVkb3Jh?=) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 09:13:51 +0200 Subject: TLA? Message-ID: Greetings, I'm going to open a local website about fedora, I want to sign the TLA prior to opening the website.How can I do this? Thanks -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bruno at wolff.to Tue Dec 1 13:05:57 2009 From: bruno at wolff.to (Bruno Wolff III) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 07:05:57 -0600 Subject: TLA? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20091201130557.GA22801@wolff.to> On Tue, Dec 01, 2009 at 09:13:51 +0200, Baransel Sa??nda - Fedora wrote: > Greetings, > > I'm going to open a local website about fedora, I want to sign the TLA prior > to opening the website.How can I do this? The following seems to be a good starting point. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Local_community_domains From stickster at gmail.com Tue Dec 1 15:41:06 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 10:41:06 -0500 Subject: Answers from the Candidate Questionnaire now in the Wiki (Was: Candidate Questionnaire status) In-Reply-To: <4B0CE4A5.70201@leemhuis.info> References: <4AFB2CF0.10303@leemhuis.info> <4B024899.60707@leemhuis.info> <4B02FDCC.8050508@leemhuis.info> <4B0B8EC3.9080403@leemhuis.info> <4B0CE4A5.70201@leemhuis.info> Message-ID: <20091201154106.GG2803@victoria.internal.frields.org> On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 09:02:45AM +0100, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > Hi > > Me again ;-) > > Thorsten Leemhuis wrote on 24.11.2009 08:44: > > Thorsten Leemhuis wrote on 17.11.2009 20:47: > >> On 17.11.2009 07:54, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > >>> Thorsten Leemhuis wrote on 11.11.2009 22:30: > >>>> As you may have heard already, several seats of the Fedora > >>>> Board, FESCo, and FAMSCO are up for election soon(?). Right now > >>>> we are in the nomination period, which will be followed by a > >>>> "Candidate Questionnaire." [...] > >> Deadline for answers: 20091124-06:00 UTC [...] > > Quick status update: I sent the questions to 23 people and 19 of them > > replied with the answers. I didn't get any replies to the questions (or > > my reminder mail from Sunday evening) from > > > > * Rodrigo Padula de Oliveira (RodrigoPadula) > > * Max Spevack (spevack) > > * Scott Seiersen (sseiersen) > > * Will Woods (wwoods) > > Max sent a apology, but the other remained silent afaics. > > > I hope to find time to work through the answers later today (in > > something like 12 hours from now) and publish them afterwards. > > Compiled a wiki page with the answers and gave the nominees 12 hours to > check the results. A few bugs were found and fixed, but I think > everything is fine now. > > So the answers are now free for public consumption on this page: > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Elections/F13_Questionnaire Thorsten, thanks for the time and effort you put into this. We'll make sure to notify the community that if they want to see results for a questionnaire for the next election, someone will need to take over this responsibility. Your help has been much appreciated! -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From stickster at gmail.com Wed Dec 2 01:50:43 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 20:50:43 -0500 Subject: TLA? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20091202015043.GB19612@victoria.internal.frields.org> On Tue, Dec 01, 2009 at 09:13:51AM +0200, Baransel Sa??nda - Fedora wrote: > Greetings, > > I'm going to open a local website about fedora, I want to sign the TLA > prior to opening the website.How can I do this? Hi Baransel, you do not need a TLA unless you are planning to use the Fedora trademarks (i.e. the "fedora" name) in your registered domain name. As a separate issue, if you'd like I can certainly connect you with some Fedora Ambassadors in your area who might be able to give you tips or assistance on content or setup. Let me know if that's something in which you're interested. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From baransels at fedoraproject.org Wed Dec 2 05:49:12 2009 From: baransels at fedoraproject.org (=?UTF-8?B?QmFyYW5zZWwgU2HEn8SxbmRhIC0gRmVkb3Jh?=) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 07:49:12 +0200 Subject: TLA? In-Reply-To: <20091202015043.GB19612@victoria.internal.frields.org> References: <20091202015043.GB19612@victoria.internal.frields.org> Message-ID: Bruno Wolff III > The following seems to be a good starting point. > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Local_community_domains > Thanks for info but I already studied that wiki page and it tells me to contact with advisory-board. Paul W. Frields > Hi Baransel, you do not need a TLA unless you are planning to use the > Fedora trademarks (i.e. the "fedora" name) in your registered domain > name. > Yes I'm planning to use the name. > As a separate issue, if you'd like I can certainly connect you with > some Fedora Ambassadors in your area who might be able to give you > tips or assistance on content or setup. Let me know if that's > something in which you're interested. > Thanks for the offer, I'm planning to contact with other ambassadors as soon as site goes live.I already completed the setup, I even had time to work on the public fedora mirror of website, I'm trying to get legal permission for 2 months.Yet there is no response from legal at fedora*.I was going to connect with you in the end of this week. I just need TLA before my coupon expires Thanks -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mel at redhat.com Wed Dec 2 06:54:04 2009 From: mel at redhat.com (Mel Chua) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 2009 01:54:04 -0500 Subject: Fwd: F13 goals and marketing objectives... Message-ID: <4B160F0C.6060908@redhat.com> Robyn asked a great question on the Marketing list after our meeting today, and this seemed like the right place to take it. Thoughts? -------- Original Message -------- Subject: F13 goals and marketing objectives... Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2009 19:29:56 -0700 From: Robyn Bergeron Reply-To: For discussions about marketing and expanding the Fedora user base To: For discussions about marketing and expanding the Fedora user base Greetings all, The basis for this email comes from discussions in the marketing meeting earlier today; logs aren't posted (yet), but in a nutshell it was more or less a brainstorming sprint on what projects we (marketing) would like to tackle for F13. The brainstorming list is also getting written up in wiki form, so that will be forthcoming as well, but I'm going to write while it's still in my brain... Are there specific overall goals for F13 posted / written down / being discussed? Or is this something being discussed at fudcon? The only reference I could find was in a sticksterblogpost (http://marilyn.frields.org:8080/~paul/wordpress/?p=2848). The reason I ask is because...it would be ideal to really tie what we are doing to the higher goals of Fedora. Not necessarily doing one-off projects / tasks - although those certainly are awesome too, especially if we discover that they are super valuable or well-received - but more really ensuring that we are coming up with ideas / tasks that assist in reaching F13 goals. Of course, some of these are fairly simple; I'd assume that "getting F13 out the door by XYZ date" is a goal of sorts, and the straightforward marketing work we do - one-page release notes, in-depth features, etc. ties in with that. But there are, I'd hope, some higher, not entirely black-and-white goals - perhaps things like "increasing user base," or something similar - where we should be picking tasks to help drive us on the big, happy road towards that end goal. So as we drill down towards a final task list, I think (now, where'd I put my soapbox? :D) that it would be great to have those goals out there - if we have them - to help us prioritize what we, as a marketing team, would like to do. Because while we seem to have endless ideas, unfortunately, we do not have infinite time and other resources (money, caffeine, and so forth) - and I would love to see the awesome brainpower and resources we do have be put to the most effective use. And if there aren't goals out there yet - are they forthcoming? :) -Robyn -- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list From stickster at gmail.com Wed Dec 2 15:05:37 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 10:05:37 -0500 Subject: TLA? In-Reply-To: References: <20091202015043.GB19612@victoria.internal.frields.org> Message-ID: <20091202150537.GG3563@victoria.internal.frields.org> On Wed, Dec 02, 2009 at 07:49:12AM +0200, Baransel Sa??nda - Fedora wrote: > Bruno Wolff III > > The following seems to be a good starting point. > [1]http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Local_community_domains > > Thanks for info but I already studied that wiki page and it tells me to > contact with advisory-board. > > Paul W. Frields > > Hi Baransel, you do not need a TLA unless you are planning to use the > Fedora trademarks (i.e. the "fedora" name) in your registered domain > name. > > Yes I'm planning to use the name. > ? > > As a separate issue, if you'd like I can certainly connect you with > some Fedora Ambassadors in your area who might be able to give you > tips or assistance on content or setup. ?Let me know if that's > something in which you're interested. > > Thanks for the offer, I'm planning to contact with other ambassadors as > soon as site goes live.I already completed the setup, I even had time to > work on the public fedora mirror of website, I'm trying to get legal > permission for 2 months.Yet there is no response from legal at fedora*.I was > going to connect with you in the end of this week. > I just need TLA before my coupon expires > > Thanks OK, I'll ping the Board to get approval and then send you the TLA. Thanks for the information! -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From chitlesh.goorah at gmail.com Wed Dec 2 18:14:41 2009 From: chitlesh.goorah at gmail.com (Chitlesh GOORAH) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 19:14:41 +0100 Subject: gallery.fedoraproject.org who is interested ? Message-ID: <50baabb30912021014t2ce51c5bxf7d4f5ec139e73a4@mail.gmail.com> Hello there, FEL is a bit too technical for the general public. However it is opensource and we are all proud of what we can achieve with it. In order to do its marketing and build a community around it seduces new users and contributors, we need to show what the software under its umbrella can achieve. What else other than screenshots and events photos more appropriate to convey such thing ? I also believe that other teams have similar issues. Hence I'm hoping for your support to find a common solution for everyone. On IRC, mmcgrath told me that costs might be an issue for having a gallery for FEL only, due to its targeted users. Thus it seems wise to have one a big gallery for all the teams. At top level, every team will have its album and will be able to create sub albums. i.e * FEL * backend design * events * PCB * KDE * events * ... * Artwork * F-12 * F-13 .... There were a lot of discussion about gallery.fedoraproject.org in the past. Are we ready to realise it ? Who supports the idea so that we can file a proper RFR ? All I'm hoping for is that the work done behind FEL can still live without me. We currently have a temporary gallery here http://publictest6.fedoraproject.org/gallery2/main.php but it can be deleted without any warning. Hence I'm looking for a permanent place with other contributors having write access as well. I think the marketing team will be the one who will most benefit from it by showing F as Friends from those Fedora Events. Kind regards, Chitlesh Goorah From stickster at gmail.com Wed Dec 2 18:51:19 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 13:51:19 -0500 Subject: Reminder: Fedora Board IRC meeting 1700 UTC 2009-12-03 Message-ID: <20091202185119.GP3563@victoria.internal.frields.org> The Board is holding its monthly public meeting on Thursday, December 3, 2009, at 1700 UTC[1] on IRC Freenode. For this meeting, the public is invited to do the following: * Join #fedora-board-meeting to see the Board's conversation. * Join #fedora-board-questions to discuss topics and post questions. This channel is read/write for everyone. The moderator will voice people from the queue, one at a time, in the #fedora-board-meeting channel. We'll limit time per voice as needed to give everyone in the queue a chance to be heard. The Board may reserve some time at the top of the hour to cover any agenda items as appropriate. We look forward to seeing you at the meeting! -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 190 bytes Desc: not available URL: From a.badger at gmail.com Wed Dec 2 21:36:16 2009 From: a.badger at gmail.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 13:36:16 -0800 Subject: gallery.fedoraproject.org who is interested ? In-Reply-To: <50baabb30912021014t2ce51c5bxf7d4f5ec139e73a4@mail.gmail.com> References: <50baabb30912021014t2ce51c5bxf7d4f5ec139e73a4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091202213616.GJ22261@clingman.lan> On Wed, Dec 02, 2009 at 07:14:41PM +0100, Chitlesh GOORAH wrote: > > There were a lot of discussion about gallery.fedoraproject.org in the > past. Are we ready to realise it ? Who supports the idea so that we > can file a proper RFR ? > > All I'm hoping for is that the work done behind FEL can still live > without me. We currently have a temporary gallery here > http://publictest6.fedoraproject.org/gallery2/main.php but it can be > deleted without any warning. Hence I'm looking for a permanent place > with other contributors having write access as well. > > I think the marketing team will be the one who will most benefit from > it by showing F as Friends from those Fedora Events. > mizmo was interested in us hosting a content area for screenshots, artwork, etc a long time ago. We were stymied at the time by lack of a secure application for managing it. Perhaps there's a plugin to zikula that could serve this purpose? -Toshio -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From stickster at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 01:19:54 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2009 20:19:54 -0500 Subject: gallery.fedoraproject.org who is interested ? In-Reply-To: <20091202213616.GJ22261@clingman.lan> References: <50baabb30912021014t2ce51c5bxf7d4f5ec139e73a4@mail.gmail.com> <20091202213616.GJ22261@clingman.lan> Message-ID: <20091203011954.GL3563@victoria.internal.frields.org> On Wed, Dec 02, 2009 at 01:36:16PM -0800, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > On Wed, Dec 02, 2009 at 07:14:41PM +0100, Chitlesh GOORAH wrote: > > > > There were a lot of discussion about gallery.fedoraproject.org in the > > past. Are we ready to realise it ? Who supports the idea so that we > > can file a proper RFR ? > > > > All I'm hoping for is that the work done behind FEL can still live > > without me. We currently have a temporary gallery here > > http://publictest6.fedoraproject.org/gallery2/main.php but it can be > > deleted without any warning. Hence I'm looking for a permanent place > > with other contributors having write access as well. > > > > I think the marketing team will be the one who will most benefit from > > it by showing F as Friends from those Fedora Events. > > > mizmo was interested in us hosting a content area for screenshots, artwork, > etc a long time ago. We were stymied at the time by lack of a secure > application for managing it. Perhaps there's a plugin to zikula that could > serve this purpose? We'll have one of the main Zikula folks, Simon Birtwistle, at FUDCon and he would be an invaluable resource for asking some background questions about the popular modules available that could handle these duties. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From simon at zikula.org Thu Dec 3 09:16:23 2009 From: simon at zikula.org (Simon Birtwistle) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 09:16:23 +0000 Subject: gallery.fedoraproject.org who is interested ? Message-ID: <4b1781ea.0c07560a.6ca7.77e1@mx.google.com> I'm on the move at the moment and replying to this on my mobile phone, so apologies for a lack of details/links. There are a few different options for galleries in Zikula depending on what you want to achieve and how much work you are happy to do. There are some solutions for Zikula (MediaAttach comes to mind) which would require a lot of setup but are well integrated with other zikula modules and could also be used as a image library for news articles etc. Alternatively, there are other modules that are far simpler and provide a basic gallery interface for users with little effort. Some modules are already on the list for Fedora Insight so in theory this capability could be ready very fast - we'll look at it at Fudcon I'm sure. Simon -----Original Message----- From: Paul W. Frields Sent: 03 December 2009 01:19 To: fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com Subject: Re: gallery.fedoraproject.org who is interested ? On Wed, Dec 02, 2009 at 01:36:16PM -0800, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > On Wed, Dec 02, 2009 at 07:14:41PM +0100, Chitlesh GOORAH wrote: > > > > There were a lot of discussion about gallery.fedoraproject.org in the > > past. Are we ready to realise it ? Who supports the idea so that we > > can file a proper RFR ? > > > > All I'm hoping for is that the work done behind FEL can still live > > without me. We currently have a temporary gallery here > > http://publictest6.fedoraproject.org/gallery2/main.php but it can be > > deleted without any warning. Hence I'm looking for a permanent place > > with other contributors having write access as well. > > > > I think the marketing team will be the one who will most benefit from > > it by showing F as Friends from those Fedora Events. > > > mizmo was interested in us hosting a content area for screenshots, artwork, > etc a long time ago. We were stymied at the time by lack of a secure > application for managing it. Perhaps there's a plugin to zikula that could > serve this purpose? We'll have one of the main Zikula folks, Simon Birtwistle, at FUDCon and he would be an invaluable resource for asking some background questions about the popular modules available that could handle these duties. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug _______________________________________________ fedora-advisory-board mailing list fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board From stickster at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 12:31:37 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 07:31:37 -0500 Subject: Fwd: F13 goals and marketing objectives... In-Reply-To: <4B160F0C.6060908@redhat.com> References: <4B160F0C.6060908@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20091203123137.GA2848@victoria.internal.frields.org> Robyn Bergeron originally wrote: > Are there specific overall goals for F13 posted / written down / being > discussed? Or is this something being discussed at fudcon? The only > reference I could find was in a sticksterblogpost > (http://marilyn.frields.org:8080/~paul/wordpress/?p=2848). The blog post in question talks about a specific facet of the distribution, but not the Project overall or marketing in any sense. > The reason I ask is because...it would be ideal to really tie what we > are doing to the higher goals of Fedora. Not necessarily doing > one-off projects / tasks - although those certainly are awesome too, > especially if we discover that they are super valuable or > well-received - but more really ensuring that we are coming up with > ideas / tasks that assist in reaching F13 goals. > > Of course, some of these are fairly simple; I'd assume that "getting > F13 out the door by XYZ date" is a goal of sorts, and the > straightforward marketing work we do - one-page release notes, > in-depth features, etc. ties in with that. But there are, I'd hope, > some higher, not entirely black-and-white goals - perhaps things like > "increasing user base," or something similar - where we should be > picking tasks to help drive us on the big, happy road towards that end > goal. We are always trying to increase the size of our contributor community, by providing any interested person (often a user) the tools and knowledge needed to join, find a team and tasks that align with his or her interests, and produce a useful result that gives that person a sense of accomplishment and connection. The Marketing team is particularly bi-directional in its pursuit of that goal. In one sense, Marketing should produce general information or roadmap (i.e. knowledge) and ensure that effectively gets into the hands of those potential contributors. Scaling outward from the Fedora Project, so to speak. In another sense, Marketing, just like any other Fedora Project component, should do its best to provide a clear set of specific tasks and processes so that people interested in doing marketing work can get involved in the team -- scaling outward, *inside* the Fedora Project. > So as we drill down towards a final task list, I think (now, where'd I > put my soapbox? :D) that it would be great to have those goals out > there - if we have them - to help us prioritize what we, as a > marketing team, would like to do. Because while we seem to have > endless ideas, unfortunately, we do not have infinite time and other > resources (money, caffeine, and so forth) - and I would love to see > the awesome brainpower and resources we do have be put to the most > effective use. > > And if there aren't goals out there yet - are they forthcoming? :) When it comes to Marketing, I think with each release we should be: * Improving our ability to produce the comprehensive set of materials used for release marketing -- whether that means producing something additional, like the one-page release notes, or reducing chaff and avoiding duplication * Building and documenting (!) a process by which we efficiently get marketing material in the hands of all FOSS-interested media outlets with a minimum of confusion For Fedora 13, the biggest and most obvious goals for Marketing and tying into Fedora overall that I can see are: * Getting Fedora Insight -- that is, the Zikula instance where we'll start to centralize and showcase marketing material, documentation, news, and media -- up and running * Cross-training a number of individuals on the team to provide the necessary support for administering the Zikula system, avoiding SPoF's... ensuring that as leadership changes in Marketing over time, which is natural and expected, we have enough informed people to review, stage and publish material * Improve cross-team communication and participation between Marketing, Docs, and QA so that release docs are as timely as possible, and that we are highlighting prominent improvements and changes in a Fedora release * Highlighting the superior engineering in Fedora, which is something I think we don't always call out as well as we could... there are a ton of amazingly smart and experienced people working in the Fedora community, and the work of that large and technically savvy group ensures Fedora continues to make good decisions about technologies and approaches. We don't always get it 100% right off the bat, but the good judgment of these folks means we usually steer clear of Band-Aid approaches that would bite us (or our users) later. * Finding a sustainable rate for producing interesting material throughout a release cycle, to smooth out (somewhat) the peaks-and-troughs graph of workload that occurs over a release cycle. This is a pretty tough one to do in one cycle, and I suspect we will learn it over iterations, much as we've done with many other processes, e.g. the release schedule. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From stickster at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 15:33:41 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 10:33:41 -0500 Subject: Elections and infrastructure Message-ID: <20091203153341.GH2848@victoria.internal.frields.org> Although Mike McGrath and the Infrastructure team don't expect the server relocation to affect our upcoming elections, we want to make sure the community's ability to vote is not unnecessarily affected given the timing. The original voting period was December 8-15, and the infrastructure move is occurring over the weekend of the 12th: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-announce-list/2009-December/msg00000.html https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/1845 I talked this morning with Mike, John Rose, and Nigel Jones, and here's the plan we arrived at: * The voting period will start on December 5 instead of December 8. This ensures that, no matter what unforeseen circumstances occur, there will be a full weekend of uninterrupted voting time available to all community members. All townhalls will be finished by that point, since none are planned for FUDCon at this time. * Although Mike and the Infrastructure team believe they can keep the elections open throughout the move, in the event of any substantial outage (8 hours or more), we will extend the end of voting by an additional day. For any additional day of outage, we'll extend the end of voting by another additional day. Again, we aren't expecting to have to do this, but it's better for us to have a plan ahead of time. * Nigel is preparing a change to the elections app that will allow a logged in user to check the accuracy of a previously recorded vote. This will give an additional measure of confidence in the election system, even in the event of a brief outage. If any user detects a problem, they can report it via IRC, email to the infrastructure list, or a Trac ticket. * Mike is preparing a blog post to the Planet to further spread the word about the infrastructure move. Nigel and I will also post blog entries about the information you see here, and I'll send out announcements to the appropriate mailing lists. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From stickster at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 18:25:17 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 13:25:17 -0500 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2009-12-03 UTC 1700 Message-ID: <20091203182517.GP2848@victoria.internal.frields.org> Minutes: http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-board-meeting/2009-12-03/fedora-board-meeting.2009-12-03-17.00.html Minutes (text): http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-board-meeting/2009-12-03/fedora-board-meeting.2009-12-03-17.00.txt Log: http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-board-meeting/2009-12-03/fedora-board-meeting.2009-12-03-17.00.log.html ============================= #fedora-board-meeting Meeting ============================= Meeting started by stickster at 17:00:32 UTC. The full logs are available at http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-board-meeting/2009-12-03/fedora-board-meeting.2009-12-03-17.00.log.html . Meeting summary --------------- * Roll call! (stickster, 17:00:42) * Board -- open floor (stickster, 17:02:43) * Many thanks to mchua, SMParrish, ctyler for FUDCon planning and execution assistance! (stickster, 17:06:09) * FUDCon post-mortem: IRC Freenode, #fudcon-planning 2009-12-10 UTC 2100 (stickster, 17:13:12) * ACTION: stickster to mail TLA holders and potential holders with updated agreement info ASAP (stickster, 17:16:24) * Election schedule extension (stickster, 17:17:07) * LINK: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2009-December/msg00014.html (stickster, 17:17:26) * Community Q&A! (stickster, 17:23:51) * Marketing & F13 (stickster, 17:28:57) * Release cycle: see above ^^^ (stickster, 18:04:35) Meeting ended at 18:05:44 UTC. Action Items ------------ * stickster to mail TLA holders and potential holders with updated agreement info ASAP Action Items, by person ----------------------- * stickster * stickster to mail TLA holders and potential holders with updated agreement info ASAP * **UNASSIGNED** * (none) People Present (lines said) --------------------------- * stickster (119) * poelcat (39) * mdomsch (30) * jwb (25) * mmcgrath (19) * rbergeron (19) * notting (16) * dgilmore (14) * EvilBob (10) * glezos (4) * zodbot (2) * caillon (2) * spot (1) Generated by `MeetBot`_ 0.1.4 .. _`MeetBot`: http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot From inode0 at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 23:46:52 2009 From: inode0 at gmail.com (inode0) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2009 17:46:52 -0600 Subject: Election Town Halls Message-ID: Today we completed the 6 town halls for the Fedora Project Board, FESCo, and FAmSCo elections. If you weren't able to attend these you can access logs from each meeting from the main election page on the wiki. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Elections I'd like to thank all the candidates who chose to participate in one or more of the town halls. Without their cooperation our moderators would have been very lonely. I'd like to also thank Yaakov Nemoy, Toshio Kuratomi, Kevin Fenzi, Lars Delhage, Karsten Wade, and Paul Mellors for volunteering to do the sometimes exciting and sometimes not so exciting work as moderators of these events. Remember to vote! The schedule for voting has been slightly revised as described on the wiki but will begin on December 5 and run through at least December 15. Vote early though to help us minimize any impact our other activities might have. John From nigjones at redhat.com Sat Dec 5 00:19:42 2009 From: nigjones at redhat.com (Nigel Jones) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 19:19:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: Fedora Board, FESCo & FAmSCo Elections - Voting Information In-Reply-To: <1846964.1861259971953089.JavaMail.nigjones@njones.bne.redhat.com> Message-ID: <9440004.1881259972380235.JavaMail.nigjones@njones.bne.redhat.com> Hi Everyone, The elections for the Fedora Board, Fedora Engineering Steering Committee (FESCo) and the Fedora Ambassadors Steering Committee have been created and are due to start at 0000 UTC on 5th December 2009 and are scheduled to run until 2359 UTC on 15th December 2009. All groups have chosen to use the Range Voting method (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Range_voting). Ballots may be cast on the Fedora Elections System at https://admin.fedoraproject.org/voting. If this is the first time you've used the voting system, please refer to the Fedora Elections Guide, currently located at http://nigelj.fedorapeople.org/feg/. **** Please Note **** There will be a Fedora Infrastructure outage during the voting period that may effect the voting application, as a result we have brought the voting start date forward to the 5th December instead of the 8th December. As announced by Paul Frields in the event of extended outage, we will as appropriate extend the voting period. We have also implemented a new feature in our voting software, so users can verify their votes. Vote verification can be done at: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/voting/verify You will be prompted for your Fedora Account System username and password and a list of elections where votes have been recorded will be listed. For more information please refer to: Fedora Infrastructure Outage Information: * https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-announce-list/2009-December/msg00000.html * https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/1845 Contingency plans in case of extended outage: * https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2009-December/msg00014.html ********************* Fedora Board Election: ---------------------- This election, the Fedora Board is electing two candidates and will appoint another two members. Vacating the seats on the board this election are elected representatives Matt Domsch & Bill Nottingham, and appointed representatives Christoher Aillon and Dimitris Glezos (https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board/History). The candidates for this election, in alphabetical order are: Chris Tyler (ctyler) Colin Walters (walters) Matt Domsch (mdomsch) Steven M. Parrish (SMParrish) To vote, you must have a signed Contributor License Agreement (CLA). Vote Here: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/voting/about/boardf13 Town Hall Logs: * http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-townhall/2009-12-01/fedora-board-town-hall-2009-12-01.2009-12-01-03.00.log.html * http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-townhall/2009-12-02/fedora-townhall.2009-12-02-15.01.log.html Fedora Engineering Steering Committee Election: ----------------------------------------------- For this election, FESCo will be electing four candidates to sit on the committee. Vacating the seats on FESCo this election are Jon Stanley, Dan Hor?k, Jarod Wilson, and David Woodhouse. The candidates for this election, in alphabetical order are: Adam Jackson (ajax) Christoph Wickert (cwickert) Justin M. Forbes (jforbes) Matthew Garrett (mjg59) Peter Jones (pjones) Richard June (rjune) Robert Scheck (rsc) To vote, you must have a signed Contributor License Agreement (CLA) and be a member of another Fedora group. Vote Here: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/voting/about/fescof13 Town Hall Logs: * http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-townhall/2009-12-01/fesco-town-hall-2009-12-01.2009-12-01-22.00.log.html * http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-townhall/2009-12-03/fesco-town-hall-2009-12-03.2009-12-03-18.07.log.html Fedora Ambassadors Steering Committee Election: ----------------------------------------------- This election FAmSCo will be electing all 7 seats on the committee. These seats were previously held by Max Spevack, Joerg Simon, Francesco Ugolini, Thomas Canniot, Rodrigo Padula, David Nalley and Susmit Shannigrahi. The candidates for this election, in no particular order are: David Nalley Jean-Francois Saucier Joerg Simon Luca Foppiano Maria Gracia Leandro Max Spevack Robert Scheck Rodrigo Padula de Oliveira Sandro Mathys Scott Seiersen Shakthi Kannan Susmit Shannigrahi To vote, you must be a member of the ambassadors group in the Fedora Account System. Vote Here: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/voting/about/famscof13 Townhall Log: * http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meetings:Town_Hall_FAmSCo_2009-11-28_1800 * http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-townhall/2009-11-30/famsco-townhall.2009-11-30-17.58.log.html *** I'd also like to point out the following from Paul Frields' announcement for the June 2008 Board Election: "I'd like everyone voting to remember that this isn't a popularity contest, or a reward system. Think about how you'd like to Board to look when you vote, the same way you think about how you'd like any government body to look when you cast votes for their elections. We have a lot of worthy candidates on this list, and you should pick the ones that you feel will best represent you in advancing the Fedora Project. This is one of numerous ways in which our community makes decisions about the leadership of Fedora. Your vote counts, and I hope you take advantage of it." *** This advice is still valid, not just for the Fedora Board election but for all three elections. Thanks also go to John Rose and other volunteers who have helped with organising and running Town Hall meetings for these elections. Regards, Nigel Jones Fedora Election Admin From stickster at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 05:23:08 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul Frields) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 00:23:08 -0500 Subject: Board appointment Message-ID: I am pleased to announce that Christopher Aillon will continue in his appointed seat on the Fedora Project Board for this cycle. His term will last until the selection process following the release of Fedora 14, in accordance with the Board's established succession planning. Christopher's presence on the Board has helped our discussions on a number of subjects over the past year, and I look forward to having him continue that relationship. Apologies for making this announcement slightly after the beginning of elections, due to the schedule change of elections and the intervening FUDCon activity. The remaining Board appointment will be made after the close of the Board elections. -- Paul W. Frields From giallu at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 09:06:22 2009 From: giallu at gmail.com (Gianluca Sforna) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 10:06:22 +0100 Subject: ambassadors "conflict of interest" Message-ID: Please accept my apologies if this is not the proper place to ask. I've never read anything against this, so I'm wondering if it was ever brought up at all. Are Fedora ambassadors allowed to also be ambassadors? -- Gianluca Sforna http://morefedora.blogspot.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/gianlucasforna From ppapadeas at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 09:31:24 2009 From: ppapadeas at gmail.com (Pierros Papadeas) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 11:31:24 +0200 Subject: ambassadors "conflict of interest" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21461b360912070131m1bfa14f1re4759dcbff451803@mail.gmail.com> Hi Gianluca, I supposed it is not strictly prohibited by some "law" or policy of fedora. BUT, In terms that Fedora Project has some distinct values (4Fs etc) that we believe and promote, I doubt if the "values" of another community/project are non conflicting with ours. I mean that the main reason for not doing it, are conflicting values between projects, and that's something that concerns you (and is not a law or something). Finally, imagine showing up to an event and meet someone that has this double property... I would begin to question his belief on either of the project. Now, if the two projects have separate target group and purpose (e.g. Fedora vs. a highly customized spin on IRC relaying (zdoing!) ) I don't see any problem with that. (But I dont think that there are ambassadors for such minor groups.) ~? On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 11:06 AM, Gianluca Sforna wrote: > Please accept my apologies if this is not the proper place to ask. > > I've never read anything against this, so I'm wondering if it was ever > brought up at all. > > Are Fedora ambassadors allowed to also be name here> ambassadors? > > -- > Gianluca Sforna > > http://morefedora.blogspot.com > http://www.linkedin.com/in/gianlucasforna > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board > -- Pierros Papadeas PGP key: 0x6130DBF8 http://pierros.papadeas.gr pierros at papadeas.gr liknus @ GRnet , Freenode -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From herson at azneita.org Mon Dec 7 10:56:14 2009 From: herson at azneita.org (Heherson Pagcaliwagan) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 18:56:14 +0800 Subject: ambassadors "conflict of interest" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 5:06 PM, Gianluca Sforna wrote: > Please accept my apologies if this is not the proper place to ask. > > I've never read anything against this, so I'm wondering if it was ever > brought up at all. > > Are Fedora ambassadors allowed to also be name here> ambassadors? Personally, I see no reason why this wouldn't be acceptable. We're already sharing code, why not share the people too :) > > -- > Gianluca Sforna > > http://morefedora.blogspot.com > http://www.linkedin.com/in/gianlucasforna > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board > -- Heherson Pagcaliwagan http://project.azneita.org +63.908.885.5428 From christoph.wickert at googlemail.com Mon Dec 7 10:57:16 2009 From: christoph.wickert at googlemail.com (Christoph Wickert) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 11:57:16 +0100 Subject: ambassadors "conflict of interest" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1260183436.3323.24.camel@wicktop.localdomain> Am Montag, den 07.12.2009, 10:06 +0100 schrieb Gianluca Sforna: > Are Fedora ambassadors allowed to also be name here> ambassadors? We have such people already in the ambassadors group. For example, Maces is an Arch user (but not an Arch ambassador, because they don't have an ambassadors program). Although he doesn't know Fedora as good as he knows Arch, he knows a lot about LXDE and gave workshops and talks about LXDE in general and on Fedora. During FROSCon and Chemnitzer Linuxtage he did booth service for us the whole time. As you can see, these people can be valuable ambassadors for Fedora. Regards, Chrisroph From tiemann at redhat.com Mon Dec 7 13:41:21 2009 From: tiemann at redhat.com (Michael Tiemann) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 08:41:21 -0500 Subject: ambassadors "conflict of interest" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B1D0601.5080209@redhat.com> Gianluca Sforna wrote: > Please accept my apologies if this is not the proper place to ask. > > I've never read anything against this, so I'm wondering if it was ever > brought up at all. > > Are Fedora ambassadors allowed to also be name here> ambassadors? > I think it's problematic. I think that Fedora ambassadors should high-value, trusted opinion-leaders, and should embody the energy and excitement of the Fedora project. Somebody who tries to act as a higher authority of why one would want to use Distribution X or Y for a given situation, instead of encouraging people outside the community or inside of it to make Fedora the best distribution for the task in question, are not being true ambassadors. I see no conflict whatsoever for somebody to be both a Fedora Ambassador and also an ambassador for GNOME or KDE or Emacs or PostgreSQL or MySQL, etc. But I think that somebody who has a fistful of distribution ambassadorships isn't providing the kind of differentiated boost to Fedora that I'd expect to come from a Fedora Ambassador. M -- GPG Key: F0AD 3368 D24A 56CD A2AD 6A12 CAB3 2E89 EA0A C0E4 The structure of world peace cannot be the work of one man, or one party, or one nation...it must be a peace which rests on the cooperative effort of the whole world. -- Franklin Delano Roosevelt Part of the tragedy is of the artist is that there is no real goal in achieving what you are naturally good at. The real satisfaction lies in the things you accomplish by practice and effort. -- Joris van den Berg, commenting on the death of H. Cartier Bresson Dream so big you can share -- me From smooge at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 18:24:19 2009 From: smooge at gmail.com (Stephen John Smoogen) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 11:24:19 -0700 Subject: ambassadors "conflict of interest" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <80d7e4090912071024q544921a7xd7779fa8b6eb84ad@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 2:06 AM, Gianluca Sforna wrote: > Please accept my apologies if this is not the proper place to ask. > > I've never read anything against this, so I'm wondering if it was ever > brought up at all. > > Are Fedora ambassadors allowed to also be name here> ambassadors? > I don't think it should be a problem. I know where I live.. there are few Linux people and each one runs something different. The people who are effective in communicating Linux in general usually have to show why choice is available and that people need to find what is best for them. This means they are usually wearing 2-3 hats of "Gentoo", "Debian", "Ubuntu", "Slackware" and "Fedora" to get enough other people to show up at an event to show that this is not a crazy flash in the pan (and yes there are still a lot of people who think Linux will go away any time soon.) In this case the ambassador is working on getting 'peace' between various factions for a larger win. -- Stephen J Smoogen. Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp. Or what's a heaven for? -- Robert Browning From larry.cafiero at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 18:43:30 2009 From: larry.cafiero at gmail.com (Larry Cafiero) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 10:43:30 -0800 Subject: ambassadors "conflict of interest" In-Reply-To: <80d7e4090912071024q544921a7xd7779fa8b6eb84ad@mail.gmail.com> References: <80d7e4090912071024q544921a7xd7779fa8b6eb84ad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7a0d56080912071043t611d8cd2x6d7a18e02ddbc29a@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 10:24 AM, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 2:06 AM, Gianluca Sforna wrote: > > > > Are Fedora ambassadors allowed to also be > name here> ambassadors? > > > > I don't think it should be a problem. I know where I live.. there are > few Linux people and each one runs something different. The people who > are effective in communicating Linux in general usually have to show > why choice is available and that people need to find what is best for > them. This means they are usually wearing 2-3 hats of "Gentoo", > "Debian", "Ubuntu", "Slackware" and "Fedora" to get enough other > people to show up at an event to show that this is not a crazy flash > in the pan (and yes there are still a lot of people who think Linux > will go away any time soon.) > > In this case the ambassador is working on getting 'peace' between > various factions for a larger win. I agree with Stephen -- especially since a lot of Free/Open Source Software advocates and evangelists tend to work toward their goal of promoting FOSS in "ambassador" programs (and in whatever capacity for those distros without programs), with the sole purpose of promote Linux and FOSS over a particular distro or program. I know several people who "wear more than one hat" (no pun intended) and I'm OK with it because it contributes to, as Stephen puts it, "a larger win." For that reason, the fact that people work across distro lines is not much of an issue as far as I am concerned. Larry Cafiero -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bob at fedoraunity.org Mon Dec 7 19:08:55 2009 From: bob at fedoraunity.org (Robert 'Bob' Jensen) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 19:08:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: ambassadors "conflict of interest" In-Reply-To: <5612171.47001260212907477.JavaMail.root@zimbra.cbccgroup.com> Message-ID: <32225719.47021260212935619.JavaMail.root@zimbra.cbccgroup.com> ----- "Gianluca Sforna" wrote: > Please accept my apologies if this is not the proper place to ask. > > I've never read anything against this, so I'm wondering if it was > ever > brought up at all. > > Are Fedora ambassadors allowed to also be name here> ambassadors? > It is better to do one thing well than to suck at many. With that being said, Fedora is about Freedom, one of those freedoms I hope includes Freedom of speech. One might choose to be an ambassador for a project just for the free shirt, while in their heart they agree with another project to a greater degree, I think this is wrong. Go with what you believe in, if you believe that Linux in general is the answer to most questions perhaps you should take up that flag. I don't think taking that stance should exclude you from being a Fedora Ambassador it certainly would not forcibly include you in that formal group. I choose to not be a formal "Fedora Ambassador" yet when ever practical I suggest Fedora to people interested. When Fedora is impractical I suggest Red Hat Enterprise Linux, CentOS, Ubuntu, IPCop or some other distro. I think it is foolish to think that Fedora is perfect for every situation or is perfect in general. -- Bob ------------------------------------------------------------------------ | Robert 'Bob' Jensen || Fedora Unity Founder | | bob at fedoraunity.org || http://fedoraunity.org/ | | http://bjensen.fedorapeople.org/ | | http://blogs.fedoraunity.org/bobjensen | | http://www.facebook.com/rpjensen | ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From caillon at redhat.com Mon Dec 7 20:32:49 2009 From: caillon at redhat.com (Christopher Aillon) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 15:32:49 -0500 Subject: ambassadors "conflict of interest" In-Reply-To: <4B1D0601.5080209@redhat.com> References: <4B1D0601.5080209@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4B1D6671.8040509@redhat.com> On 12/07/2009 08:41 AM, Michael Tiemann wrote: > Gianluca Sforna wrote: >> Please accept my apologies if this is not the proper place to ask. >> >> I've never read anything against this, so I'm wondering if it was ever >> brought up at all. >> >> Are Fedora ambassadors allowed to also be > name here> ambassadors? > I think it's problematic. I think that Fedora ambassadors should > high-value, trusted opinion-leaders, and should embody the energy and > excitement of the Fedora project. Somebody who tries to act as a higher > authority of why one would want to use Distribution X or Y for a given > situation, instead of encouraging people outside the community or inside > of it to make Fedora the best distribution for the task in question, are > not being true ambassadors. I agree wholeheartedly. One of the distinctive things Fedora brings to the table is our uncompromising values of 100% free and open source high quality software. Telling people about Fedora's values and then going around and telling other people to download something which conflicts with our core values (e.g. because they ship certain codecs/drivers) severely demerits our messaging. From stickster at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 20:58:36 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul Frields) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 15:58:36 -0500 Subject: Planet material Message-ID: We've had a few occasions over the past year where contributors have put questionable material on the Planet that doesn't reflect the Fedora Project's mission to lead the advancement of free and open source software and content as a collaborative community. To build that community, we should all be committed to "be excellent to each other." By creating an environment for constructive contribution, we can more effectively and successfully compare and challenge different ideas to find the best solutions for advancement, while building the size, diversity, and strength of our community. We have a diversity of backgrounds and values in our community, which is part of our strength. We don't want to unnecessarily restrict the audience of people who might become valuable contributors in the Fedora Project, and that means respecting each other viewpoints even when we disagree on particulars. We want the Fedora Project to be a constructive place for anyone to contribute without fear or worry. We want our contributors to feel welcome to express themselves, and not discourage controversial or critical opinions as long as they're offered in a constructive spirit of improvement. The privilege of posting on the Fedora Planet also includes a shared responsibility for all of us to respect our potential readers. To help our contributors understand how they can make constructive and community-friendly choices when sending blog posts to the Planet feed, I've drafted a bit of additional information on our Planet wiki page: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Planet#Appropriate_Material -- Paul From stickster at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 22:58:31 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul Frields) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 17:58:31 -0500 Subject: ambassadors "conflict of interest" In-Reply-To: <4B1D0601.5080209@redhat.com> References: <4B1D0601.5080209@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 8:41 AM, Michael Tiemann wrote: > Gianluca Sforna wrote: >> >> Please accept my apologies if this is not the proper place to ask. >> >> I've never read anything against this, so I'm wondering if it was ever >> brought up at all. >> >> Are Fedora ambassadors allowed to also be > name here> ambassadors? >> > > I think it's problematic. ?I think that Fedora ambassadors should > high-value, trusted opinion-leaders, and should embody the energy and > excitement of the Fedora project. ?Somebody who tries to act as a higher > authority of why one would want to use Distribution X or Y for a given > situation, instead of encouraging people outside the community or inside of > it to make Fedora the best distribution for the task in question, are not > being true ambassadors. > > I see no conflict whatsoever for somebody to be both a Fedora Ambassador and > also an ambassador for GNOME or KDE or Emacs or PostgreSQL or MySQL, etc. > ?But I think that somebody who has a fistful of distribution ambassadorships > isn't providing the kind of differentiated boost to Fedora that I'd expect > to come from a Fedora Ambassador. I have to agree with Michael Tiemann about this. The Fedora Project is not just "an example of a free software project." The Fedora Project also embodies a specific set of core values that are not only different from some other projects, but sometimes even incompatible. It's impossible to believe whole-heartedly in two mutually incompatible things. So to some extent, doing other promotional work as a Fedora Ambassador would probably depend on that compatibility -- kind of like compatibility in free software licensing. For instance, promoting an upstream that Fedora ships would seem to me to be compatible. Promoting a different project that doesn't share our values doesn't seem workable to me. I always try to keep in mind that being a Fedora Ambassador is neither a fan club, nor a merit badge. It's a position of trust used to spread the word about how our Project and its values and methods work, and to encourage other people to get involved in their own way. I'm all for people using that position to work with other groups to establish better, more sustainable practices for FOSS, but I don't think you can do that wearing a different philosophy for whichever group you happen to be representing at the time. Paul From giallu at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 23:32:45 2009 From: giallu at gmail.com (Gianluca Sforna) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 00:32:45 +0100 Subject: ambassadors "conflict of interest" In-Reply-To: References: <4B1D0601.5080209@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 11:58 PM, Paul Frields wrote: > > I have to agree with Michael Tiemann about this. > > The Fedora Project is not just "an example of a free software > project." ?The Fedora Project also embodies a specific set of core > values that are not only different from some other projects, but > sometimes even incompatible. It's impossible to believe > whole-heartedly in two mutually incompatible things. > > So to some extent, doing other promotional work as a Fedora Ambassador > would probably depend on that compatibility -- kind of like > compatibility in free software licensing. For instance, promoting an > upstream that Fedora ships would seem to me to be compatible. > Promoting a different project that doesn't share our values doesn't > seem workable to me. > > I always try to keep in mind that being a Fedora Ambassador is neither > a fan club, nor a merit badge. It's a position of trust used to spread > the word about how our Project and its values and methods work, and to > encourage other people to get involved in their own way. I'm all for > people using that position to work with other groups to establish > better, more sustainable practices for FOSS, but I don't think you can > do that wearing a different philosophy for whichever group you happen > to be representing at the time. Thanks Paul (and all others) for your clearly written point of view on the topic. I also happen to share this opinion, but of course I'm sure there could be cases of very valuable Ambassadors with extensive experience with other distros. So, it is correct to assume we don't want nor need to enforce any specific policy? -- Gianluca Sforna http://morefedora.blogspot.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/gianlucasforna From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Dec 7 23:39:03 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 05:09:03 +0530 Subject: ambassadors "conflict of interest" In-Reply-To: References: <4B1D0601.5080209@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4B1D9217.1070605@fedoraproject.org> On 12/08/2009 05:02 AM, Gianluca Sforna wrote: > > So, it is correct to assume we don't want nor need to enforce any > specific policy? I don't think a policy is going to be useful. We need individual Ambassadors to think and act in a level headed manner. If they can promote two or more distributions without confusing or conflicting ideas, more power to them. Rahul From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Tue Dec 8 04:27:08 2009 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (Seth Vidal) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 23:27:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: Planet material In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Dec 2009, Paul Frields wrote: > We've had a few occasions over the past year where contributors have > put questionable material on the Planet that doesn't reflect the > Fedora Project's mission to lead the advancement of free and open > source software and content as a collaborative community. To build > that community, we should all be committed to "be excellent to each > other." By creating an environment for constructive contribution, we > can more effectively and successfully compare and challenge different > ideas to find the best solutions for advancement, while building the > size, diversity, and strength of our community. > > We have a diversity of backgrounds and values in our community, which > is part of our strength. We don't want to unnecessarily restrict the > audience of people who might become valuable contributors in the > Fedora Project, and that means respecting each other viewpoints even > when we disagree on particulars. We want the Fedora Project to be a > constructive place for anyone to contribute without fear or worry. > > We want our contributors to feel welcome to express themselves, and > not discourage controversial or critical opinions as long as they're > offered in a constructive spirit of improvement. The privilege of > posting on the Fedora Planet also includes a shared responsibility for > all of us to respect our potential readers. To help our contributors > understand how they can make constructive and community-friendly > choices when sending blog posts to the Planet feed, I've drafted a bit > of additional information on our Planet wiki page: > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Planet#Appropriate_Material Why don't we let the hall monitors cover planet as well? more or less same criteria and then we don't have to add yet-another-policy? -sv From thinklinux.ssh at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 04:53:55 2009 From: thinklinux.ssh at gmail.com (susmit shannigrahi) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 10:23:55 +0530 Subject: Planet material In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> ?https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Planet#Appropriate_Material How about aggregating only those blogs which are tagged with "Fedora" or "Linux" or "Fedora Planet" (a suitable tag can be found and announced by board)? This way everything from someone's blog will not turn up at planet and at the same time we can avoid dictating what people should or should not put on their personal blogs. Thanks. -- Regards, Susmit. ============================================= http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/user:susmit ============================================= Sent from Calcutta, WB, India From foss.mailinglists at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 05:01:42 2009 From: foss.mailinglists at gmail.com (sankarshan) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 10:31:42 +0530 Subject: Planet material In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <35586fc00912072101l6bb6186eg44976349deb95bd6@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 10:23 AM, susmit shannigrahi wrote: >>> ?https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Planet#Appropriate_Material > > How about aggregating only those blogs which are tagged with "Fedora" > or "Linux" or "Fedora Planet" (a suitable tag can be found and > announced by board)? > > This way everything from someone's blog will not turn up at planet and > at the same time we can avoid dictating what people should or should > not put on their personal blogs. A lot of blogs on the Planet(s) use variations of "Fedora", "PlanetFeed" and so forth to ensure that not everything lands up. I'd say keeping the page (put forth by Paul) and, including the hall monitors make for a sensible combination. Going further down this path will get us into the acrimonious land similar to what Planet GNOME has been treading (long thread warning) -- sankarshan mukhopadhyay Sent from Brisbane, Qld, Australia From onekopaka at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 05:10:39 2009 From: onekopaka at gmail.com (Darren VanBuren) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 21:10:39 -0800 Subject: Planet material In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <407b25020912072110r655577d4x4845321e5e405b1f@mail.gmail.com> I know what I do, is I just have a fedora category on my blog, and so Planet shows only those posts in said category. The magic of WordPress is you can turn any set of posts into an RSS feed. What I have is http://theoks.net/blog/category/fedora/feed/, which just shows, in RSS form, all of my Fedora-related posts. Darren L. VanBuren ===================== http://theoks.net/ On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 20:53, susmit shannigrahi wrote: >>> ?https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Planet#Appropriate_Material > > How about aggregating only those blogs which are tagged with "Fedora" > or "Linux" or "Fedora Planet" (a suitable tag can be found and > announced by board)? > > This way everything from someone's blog will not turn up at planet and > at the same time we can avoid dictating what people should or should > not put on their personal blogs. > > Thanks. > > -- > Regards, > Susmit. > > ============================================= > http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/user:susmit > ============================================= > Sent from Calcutta, WB, India > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board > From luis.villa at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 06:07:04 2009 From: luis.villa at gmail.com (Luis Villa) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 22:07:04 -0800 Subject: Planet material In-Reply-To: <407b25020912072110r655577d4x4845321e5e405b1f@mail.gmail.com> References: <407b25020912072110r655577d4x4845321e5e405b1f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2cb10c440912072207w53da2177k13bb7b406e9506e4@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 9:10 PM, Darren VanBuren wrote: > I know what I do, is I just have a fedora category on my blog, and so > Planet shows only those posts in said category. This is what lots of (most?) Mozilla folks do for their planet, and I personally think it makes for a dry, personality-free planet- fine for technical content but not giving any sense of there being a real community of real people and personalities. That said, they still moderate who gets on their planet in the first place, so perhaps their signal-noise is different than fedora's (which I admit I don't read very regularly.) Luis From dimitris at glezos.com Tue Dec 8 08:35:35 2009 From: dimitris at glezos.com (Dimitris Glezos) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 10:35:35 +0200 Subject: Planet material In-Reply-To: <2cb10c440912072207w53da2177k13bb7b406e9506e4@mail.gmail.com> References: <407b25020912072110r655577d4x4845321e5e405b1f@mail.gmail.com> <2cb10c440912072207w53da2177k13bb7b406e9506e4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6d4237680912080035m329d46e9i8933b5347fda9c19@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 8:07 AM, Luis Villa wrote: > On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 9:10 PM, Darren VanBuren wrote: >> I know what I do, is I just have a fedora category on my blog, and so >> Planet shows only those posts in said category. > > This is what lots of (most?) Mozilla folks do for their planet, and I > personally think it makes for a dry, personality-free planet- fine for > technical content but not giving any sense of there being a real > community of real people and personalities. I'm also a supporter for planets that aren't only technical but have a more personal atmosphere. We could write down some advices (if you blog too much about non-Fedora bits, consider narrowing your planet feed, same if you're a non-english speaker, etc). > That said, they still moderate who gets on their planet in the first > place, so perhaps their signal-noise is different than fedora's (which > I admit I don't read very regularly.) In general, I hear more bad comments about Planet Fedora than good ones. People complain there should be more technical posts which aren't hidden in a sea of non-technical ones, and the same about English posts. And this has a chicken-n-egg effect too: Fewer tech people read planet, and aren't encouraged to write a long and insightful blog post, etc... -d -- Dimitris Glezos Transifex: The Multilingual Publishing Revolution http://www.transifex.net/ -- http://www.indifex.com/ From foss.mailinglists at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 08:45:41 2009 From: foss.mailinglists at gmail.com (sankarshan) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 14:15:41 +0530 Subject: Planet material In-Reply-To: <6d4237680912080035m329d46e9i8933b5347fda9c19@mail.gmail.com> References: <407b25020912072110r655577d4x4845321e5e405b1f@mail.gmail.com> <2cb10c440912072207w53da2177k13bb7b406e9506e4@mail.gmail.com> <6d4237680912080035m329d46e9i8933b5347fda9c19@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <35586fc00912080045m1eb15a8dt6087c39ef030687c@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 2:05 PM, Dimitris Glezos wrote: > In general, I hear more bad comments about Planet Fedora than good > ones. People complain there should be more technical posts which > aren't hidden in a sea of non-technical ones, and the same about > English posts. And this has a chicken-n-egg effect too: Fewer tech > people read planet, and aren't encouraged to write a long and > insightful blog post, etc... Sometimes, interesting stuff can be found at places like: -- sankarshan mukhopadhyay Sent from Brisbane, Qld, Australia From fugolini at fedoraproject.org Tue Dec 8 12:23:53 2009 From: fugolini at fedoraproject.org (Francesco Ugolini) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 13:23:53 +0100 Subject: ambassadors "conflict of interest" In-Reply-To: References: <4B1D0601.5080209@redhat.com> Message-ID: <3d4767520912080423w6b620c42i5cfe7cc8b74eeae3@mail.gmail.com> 2009/12/7 Paul Frields : > I always try to keep in mind that being a Fedora Ambassador is neither > a fan club, nor a merit badge. It's a position of trust used to spread > the word about how our Project and its values and methods work, and to > encourage other people to get involved in their own way. I'm all for > people using that position to work with other groups to establish > better, more sustainable practices for FOSS, but I don't think you can > do that wearing a different philosophy for whichever group you happen > to be representing at the time. > > Paul +1 There aren't better world to answer the question :) Regards Francesco From bruno at wolff.to Tue Dec 8 13:58:04 2009 From: bruno at wolff.to (Bruno Wolff III) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 07:58:04 -0600 Subject: Planet material In-Reply-To: <6d4237680912080035m329d46e9i8933b5347fda9c19@mail.gmail.com> References: <407b25020912072110r655577d4x4845321e5e405b1f@mail.gmail.com> <2cb10c440912072207w53da2177k13bb7b406e9506e4@mail.gmail.com> <6d4237680912080035m329d46e9i8933b5347fda9c19@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091208135804.GA23810@wolff.to> On Tue, Dec 08, 2009 at 10:35:35 +0200, Dimitris Glezos wrote: > > I'm also a supporter for planets that aren't only technical but have a > more personal atmosphere. We could write down some advices (if you > blog too much about non-Fedora bits, consider narrowing your planet > feed, same if you're a non-english speaker, etc). This seems odd. I would think more non-English posts would be a good thing. Especially if people have a way to filter blog entries based on language. From dimitris at glezos.com Tue Dec 8 14:22:41 2009 From: dimitris at glezos.com (Dimitris Glezos) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 16:22:41 +0200 Subject: Planet material In-Reply-To: <20091208135804.GA23810@wolff.to> References: <407b25020912072110r655577d4x4845321e5e405b1f@mail.gmail.com> <2cb10c440912072207w53da2177k13bb7b406e9506e4@mail.gmail.com> <6d4237680912080035m329d46e9i8933b5347fda9c19@mail.gmail.com> <20091208135804.GA23810@wolff.to> Message-ID: <6d4237680912080622w6326f47cica95cd0cb2c41600@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 3:58 PM, Bruno Wolff III wrote: > On Tue, Dec 08, 2009 at 10:35:35 +0200, > ?Dimitris Glezos wrote: >> >> I'm also a supporter for planets that aren't only technical but have a >> more personal atmosphere. We could write down some advices (if you >> blog too much about non-Fedora bits, consider narrowing your planet >> feed, same if you're a non-english speaker, etc). > > This seems odd. I would think more non-English posts would be a good thing. > Especially if people have a way to filter blog entries based on language. Right on both points. Would be great if there was a way to select your languages and only see those posts every time you visit planet.fpo. -d -- Dimitris Glezos Transifex: The Multilingual Publishing Revolution http://www.transifex.net/ -- http://www.indifex.com/ From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Tue Dec 8 14:25:25 2009 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (Seth Vidal) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 09:25:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: Planet material In-Reply-To: <6d4237680912080622w6326f47cica95cd0cb2c41600@mail.gmail.com> References: <407b25020912072110r655577d4x4845321e5e405b1f@mail.gmail.com> <2cb10c440912072207w53da2177k13bb7b406e9506e4@mail.gmail.com> <6d4237680912080035m329d46e9i8933b5347fda9c19@mail.gmail.com> <20091208135804.GA23810@wolff.to> <6d4237680912080622w6326f47cica95cd0cb2c41600@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Dec 2009, Dimitris Glezos wrote: > On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 3:58 PM, Bruno Wolff III wrote: >> On Tue, Dec 08, 2009 at 10:35:35 +0200, >> ?Dimitris Glezos wrote: >>> >>> I'm also a supporter for planets that aren't only technical but have a >>> more personal atmosphere. We could write down some advices (if you >>> blog too much about non-Fedora bits, consider narrowing your planet >>> feed, same if you're a non-english speaker, etc). >> >> This seems odd. I would think more non-English posts would be a good thing. >> Especially if people have a way to filter blog entries based on language. > > Right on both points. Would be great if there was a way to select your > languages and only see those posts every time you visit planet.fpo. > If you want per-language planet we can do that but it is going to have to be self-selected. I do not believe any of the aggregators currently can detect what language a blog post is written in. Especially when many of ours are written in 2 at the same time. -sv From bruno at wolff.to Tue Dec 8 14:33:15 2009 From: bruno at wolff.to (Bruno Wolff III) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 08:33:15 -0600 Subject: Planet material In-Reply-To: References: <407b25020912072110r655577d4x4845321e5e405b1f@mail.gmail.com> <2cb10c440912072207w53da2177k13bb7b406e9506e4@mail.gmail.com> <6d4237680912080035m329d46e9i8933b5347fda9c19@mail.gmail.com> <20091208135804.GA23810@wolff.to> <6d4237680912080622w6326f47cica95cd0cb2c41600@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091208143315.GA11885@wolff.to> On Tue, Dec 08, 2009 at 09:25:25 -0500, Seth Vidal wrote: > > If you want per-language planet we can do that but it is going to > have to be self-selected. I do not believe any of the aggregators > currently can detect what language a blog post is written in. > Especially when many of ours are written in 2 at the same time. I would expect the authors to be tagging their stuff with a language. In theory you could use content-language headers for this, but in practice tagging it like the subject matter is probably easier to make work in practice. From dimitris at glezos.com Tue Dec 8 14:35:22 2009 From: dimitris at glezos.com (Dimitris Glezos) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 16:35:22 +0200 Subject: Planet material In-Reply-To: References: <407b25020912072110r655577d4x4845321e5e405b1f@mail.gmail.com> <2cb10c440912072207w53da2177k13bb7b406e9506e4@mail.gmail.com> <6d4237680912080035m329d46e9i8933b5347fda9c19@mail.gmail.com> <20091208135804.GA23810@wolff.to> <6d4237680912080622w6326f47cica95cd0cb2c41600@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6d4237680912080635j712d4953x2f4b26dd3b140476@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 4:25 PM, Seth Vidal wrote: > > > On Tue, 8 Dec 2009, Dimitris Glezos wrote: > >> On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 3:58 PM, Bruno Wolff III wrote: >>> >>> On Tue, Dec 08, 2009 at 10:35:35 +0200, >>> ?Dimitris Glezos wrote: >>>> >>>> I'm also a supporter for planets that aren't only technical but have a >>>> more personal atmosphere. We could write down some advices (if you >>>> blog too much about non-Fedora bits, consider narrowing your planet >>>> feed, same if you're a non-english speaker, etc). >>> >>> This seems odd. I would think more non-English posts would be a good >>> thing. >>> Especially if people have a way to filter blog entries based on language. >> >> Right on both points. Would be great if there was a way to select your >> languages and only see those posts every time you visit planet.fpo. >> > > If you want per-language planet we can do that but it is going to have to be > self-selected. I do not believe any of the aggregators currently can detect > what language a blog post is written in. Especially when many of ours are > written in 2 at the same time. Tagging can work for this, but it's not an ideal solution since few will actually do it. Kinda magicical language detection from Google's API: http://code.google.com/intl/el/apis/ajaxlanguage/documentation/#Detect http://code.google.com/intl/el/apis/ajaxlanguage/documentation/detection.html -d -- Dimitris Glezos Transifex: The Multilingual Publishing Revolution http://www.transifex.net/ -- http://www.indifex.com/ From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Tue Dec 8 14:41:22 2009 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (Seth Vidal) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 09:41:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: Planet material In-Reply-To: <6d4237680912080635j712d4953x2f4b26dd3b140476@mail.gmail.com> References: <407b25020912072110r655577d4x4845321e5e405b1f@mail.gmail.com> <2cb10c440912072207w53da2177k13bb7b406e9506e4@mail.gmail.com> <6d4237680912080035m329d46e9i8933b5347fda9c19@mail.gmail.com> <20091208135804.GA23810@wolff.to> <6d4237680912080622w6326f47cica95cd0cb2c41600@mail.gmail.com> <6d4237680912080635j712d4953x2f4b26dd3b140476@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Dec 2009, Dimitris Glezos wrote: > On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 4:25 PM, Seth Vidal wrote: >> >> >> On Tue, 8 Dec 2009, Dimitris Glezos wrote: >> >>> On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 3:58 PM, Bruno Wolff III wrote: >>>> >>>> On Tue, Dec 08, 2009 at 10:35:35 +0200, >>>> ?Dimitris Glezos wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I'm also a supporter for planets that aren't only technical but have a >>>>> more personal atmosphere. We could write down some advices (if you >>>>> blog too much about non-Fedora bits, consider narrowing your planet >>>>> feed, same if you're a non-english speaker, etc). >>>> >>>> This seems odd. I would think more non-English posts would be a good >>>> thing. >>>> Especially if people have a way to filter blog entries based on language. >>> >>> Right on both points. Would be great if there was a way to select your >>> languages and only see those posts every time you visit planet.fpo. >>> >> >> If you want per-language planet we can do that but it is going to have to be >> self-selected. I do not believe any of the aggregators currently can detect >> what language a blog post is written in. Especially when many of ours are >> written in 2 at the same time. > > Tagging can work for this, but it's not an ideal solution since few > will actually do it. > > Kinda magicical language detection from Google's API: > > http://code.google.com/intl/el/apis/ajaxlanguage/documentation/#Detect > http://code.google.com/intl/el/apis/ajaxlanguage/documentation/detection.html interesting. I wonder how I would go about integrating that into the feed reader. I'll think a bit. -sv From fedora at fishter.org.uk Tue Dec 8 16:22:50 2009 From: fedora at fishter.org.uk (Graeme Hilton) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 16:22:50 +0000 Subject: Planet material In-Reply-To: <20091208135804.GA23810@wolff.to> References: <407b25020912072110r655577d4x4845321e5e405b1f@mail.gmail.com> <2cb10c440912072207w53da2177k13bb7b406e9506e4@mail.gmail.com> <6d4237680912080035m329d46e9i8933b5347fda9c19@mail.gmail.com> <20091208135804.GA23810@wolff.to> Message-ID: <6ca300c00912080822p1adce519p777af2626338be3c@mail.gmail.com> 2009/12/8 Bruno Wolff III : > On Tue, Dec 08, 2009 at 10:35:35 +0200, > ?Dimitris Glezos wrote: >> >> I'm also a supporter for planets that aren't only technical but have a >> more personal atmosphere. We could write down some advices (if you >> blog too much about non-Fedora bits, consider narrowing your planet >> feed, same if you're a non-english speaker, etc). > > This seems odd. I would think more non-English posts would be a good thing. > Especially if people have a way to filter blog entries based on language. I don't speak any languages other than English, but I really want to see more planet blog posts in languages other than English. It reminds us all how diverse and widespread the Fedora Community is. I think some people need constant reminding that Fedora is a global community. Graeme Hilton Scottish, but only fluent in English ;-) From mmcgrath at redhat.com Tue Dec 8 19:44:04 2009 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 13:44:04 -0600 (CST) Subject: Planet material In-Reply-To: References: <407b25020912072110r655577d4x4845321e5e405b1f@mail.gmail.com> <2cb10c440912072207w53da2177k13bb7b406e9506e4@mail.gmail.com> <6d4237680912080035m329d46e9i8933b5347fda9c19@mail.gmail.com> <20091208135804.GA23810@wolff.to> <6d4237680912080622w6326f47cica95cd0cb2c41600@mail.gmail.com> <6d4237680912080635j712d4953x2f4b26dd3b140476@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Dec 2009, Seth Vidal wrote: > > > On Tue, 8 Dec 2009, Dimitris Glezos wrote: > > > On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 4:25 PM, Seth Vidal > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 8 Dec 2009, Dimitris Glezos wrote: > > > > > > > On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 3:58 PM, Bruno Wolff III wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Dec 08, 2009 at 10:35:35 +0200, > > > > > ?Dimitris Glezos wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm also a supporter for planets that aren't only technical but have > > > > > > a > > > > > > more personal atmosphere. We could write down some advices (if you > > > > > > blog too much about non-Fedora bits, consider narrowing your planet > > > > > > feed, same if you're a non-english speaker, etc). > > > > > > > > > > This seems odd. I would think more non-English posts would be a good > > > > > thing. > > > > > Especially if people have a way to filter blog entries based on > > > > > language. > > > > > > > > Right on both points. Would be great if there was a way to select your > > > > languages and only see those posts every time you visit planet.fpo. > > > > > > > > > > If you want per-language planet we can do that but it is going to have to > > > be > > > self-selected. I do not believe any of the aggregators currently can > > > detect > > > what language a blog post is written in. Especially when many of ours are > > > written in 2 at the same time. > > > > Tagging can work for this, but it's not an ideal solution since few > > will actually do it. > > > > Kinda magicical language detection from Google's API: > > > > http://code.google.com/intl/el/apis/ajaxlanguage/documentation/#Detect > > http://code.google.com/intl/el/apis/ajaxlanguage/documentation/detection.html > > interesting. I wonder how I would go about integrating that into the feed > reader. I'll think a bit. > make sure it's free free, none of that fake free stuff :) -Mike From thinklinux.ssh at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 04:17:03 2009 From: thinklinux.ssh at gmail.com (susmit shannigrahi) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 09:47:03 +0530 Subject: Planet material In-Reply-To: References: <407b25020912072110r655577d4x4845321e5e405b1f@mail.gmail.com> <2cb10c440912072207w53da2177k13bb7b406e9506e4@mail.gmail.com> <6d4237680912080035m329d46e9i8933b5347fda9c19@mail.gmail.com> <20091208135804.GA23810@wolff.to> <6d4237680912080622w6326f47cica95cd0cb2c41600@mail.gmail.com> <6d4237680912080635j712d4953x2f4b26dd3b140476@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hmm..looks like I didn't express myself very well. My proposal was to let the contributors decide what they want to show in the planet. (I am not very sure I like the idea of hall monitors.) If someone thinks that his/her latest recipe should be on planet, he/she can do that by tagging the post with "planetfedora", it can work fine for all types of posts: technical or non-technical. -- Regards, Susmit. ============================================= http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/user:susmit ============================================= From jonstanley at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 04:36:36 2009 From: jonstanley at gmail.com (Jon Stanley) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 23:36:36 -0500 Subject: Planet material In-Reply-To: References: <2cb10c440912072207w53da2177k13bb7b406e9506e4@mail.gmail.com> <6d4237680912080035m329d46e9i8933b5347fda9c19@mail.gmail.com> <20091208135804.GA23810@wolff.to> <6d4237680912080622w6326f47cica95cd0cb2c41600@mail.gmail.com> <6d4237680912080635j712d4953x2f4b26dd3b140476@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 11:17 PM, susmit shannigrahi wrote: > If someone thinks that his/her latest recipe should be on planet, > he/she can do that by tagging the post with "planetfedora", it can > work fine for all types of posts: technical or non-technical. They can do this today by providing an RSS feed of posts so tagged. If they wish for all of their posts to show up, simply provide the feed of the entire blog. Some planets that I'm on i filter, and others I don't. I don't filter Planet Fedora, but I rarely post anything on my blog that is not in some way related to Fedora. From duffy at fedoraproject.org Tue Dec 8 18:29:27 2009 From: duffy at fedoraproject.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn?= Duffy) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 13:29:27 -0500 Subject: Planet material In-Reply-To: <35586fc00912072101l6bb6186eg44976349deb95bd6@mail.gmail.com> References: <35586fc00912072101l6bb6186eg44976349deb95bd6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1260296967.2139.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2009-12-08 at 10:31 +0530, sankarshan wrote: > A lot of blogs on the Planet(s) use variations of "Fedora", > "PlanetFeed" and so forth to ensure that not everything lands up. I'd > say keeping the page (put forth by Paul) and, including the hall > monitors make for a sensible combination. There has been objectionable material in post content that was actually about Fedora, though. ~m From foss.mailinglists at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 04:45:05 2009 From: foss.mailinglists at gmail.com (sankarshan) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 10:15:05 +0530 Subject: Planet material In-Reply-To: <1260296967.2139.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <35586fc00912072101l6bb6186eg44976349deb95bd6@mail.gmail.com> <1260296967.2139.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <35586fc00912082045q49da70f9g4edd1afaa974610e@mail.gmail.com> 2009/12/8 M?ir?n Duffy : > On Tue, 2009-12-08 at 10:31 +0530, sankarshan wrote: >> A lot of blogs on the Planet(s) use variations of "Fedora", >> "PlanetFeed" and so forth to ensure that not everything lands up. I'd >> say keeping the page (put forth by Paul) and, including the hall >> monitors make for a sensible combination. > > There has been objectionable material in post content that was actually > about Fedora, though. Indeed. And, there isn't "one single way" to handle this because other than a combination of a stern "Behave" (which the hall monitors are mandated to do) along with a policy/code of conduct to point folks to, it becomes difficult to catch objectionable material. -- sankarshan mukhopadhyay From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Wed Dec 9 04:50:01 2009 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (Seth Vidal) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 23:50:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: Planet material In-Reply-To: <35586fc00912082045q49da70f9g4edd1afaa974610e@mail.gmail.com> References: <35586fc00912072101l6bb6186eg44976349deb95bd6@mail.gmail.com> <1260296967.2139.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <35586fc00912082045q49da70f9g4edd1afaa974610e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Dec 2009, sankarshan wrote: > 2009/12/8 M?ir?n Duffy : >> On Tue, 2009-12-08 at 10:31 +0530, sankarshan wrote: >>> A lot of blogs on the Planet(s) use variations of "Fedora", >>> "PlanetFeed" and so forth to ensure that not everything lands up. I'd >>> say keeping the page (put forth by Paul) and, including the hall >>> monitors make for a sensible combination. >> >> There has been objectionable material in post content that was actually >> about Fedora, though. > > Indeed. And, there isn't "one single way" to handle this because other > than a combination of a stern "Behave" (which the hall monitors are > mandated to do) along with a policy/code of conduct to point folks to, > it becomes difficult to catch objectionable material. you can't catch it beforehand. You can really only react to problems and address them well. -sv From foss.mailinglists at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 05:00:20 2009 From: foss.mailinglists at gmail.com (sankarshan) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 10:30:20 +0530 Subject: Planet material In-Reply-To: References: <35586fc00912072101l6bb6186eg44976349deb95bd6@mail.gmail.com> <1260296967.2139.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <35586fc00912082045q49da70f9g4edd1afaa974610e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <35586fc00912082100k563e1dbcwcf2d9ffacc998591@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 10:20 AM, Seth Vidal wrote: > you can't catch it beforehand. You can really only react to problems and > address them well. Precisely. When reacting you'd need a existing page that specifically mentions the kind of transgressions. Which is being handled by the page drafted by Paul. -- sankarshan mukhopadhyay Sent from Brisbane, Qld, Australia From mairin at linuxgrrl.com Wed Dec 9 05:05:58 2009 From: mairin at linuxgrrl.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn?= Duffy) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 00:05:58 -0500 Subject: Planet material In-Reply-To: <35586fc00912082100k563e1dbcwcf2d9ffacc998591@mail.gmail.com> References: <35586fc00912072101l6bb6186eg44976349deb95bd6@mail.gmail.com> <1260296967.2139.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <35586fc00912082045q49da70f9g4edd1afaa974610e@mail.gmail.com> <35586fc00912082100k563e1dbcwcf2d9ffacc998591@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1260335158.3680.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2009-12-09 at 10:30 +0530, sankarshan wrote: > On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 10:20 AM, Seth Vidal wrote: > > > you can't catch it beforehand. You can really only react to problems and > > address them well. > > Precisely. When reacting you'd need a existing page that specifically > mentions the kind of transgressions. Which is being handled by the > page drafted by Paul. Right and I'm not trying to say that won't handle it. What I'm saying is that limiting planet to posts tagged with 'fedora' or some such is not a solution for the example I cited. ~m From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Wed Dec 9 05:13:09 2009 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (Seth Vidal) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 00:13:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: Planet material In-Reply-To: <35586fc00912082100k563e1dbcwcf2d9ffacc998591@mail.gmail.com> References: <35586fc00912072101l6bb6186eg44976349deb95bd6@mail.gmail.com> <1260296967.2139.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <35586fc00912082045q49da70f9g4edd1afaa974610e@mail.gmail.com> <35586fc00912082100k563e1dbcwcf2d9ffacc998591@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Dec 2009, sankarshan wrote: > On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 10:20 AM, Seth Vidal wrote: > >> you can't catch it beforehand. You can really only react to problems and >> address them well. > > Precisely. When reacting you'd need a existing page that specifically > mentions the kind of transgressions. Which is being handled by the > page drafted by Paul. > And the hall-monitors policy pretty much covers it. Don't be a jerk, we'll let you know when you've crossed the line. -sv From mairin at linuxgrrl.com Wed Dec 9 05:22:03 2009 From: mairin at linuxgrrl.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn?= Duffy) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 00:22:03 -0500 Subject: Planet material In-Reply-To: References: <35586fc00912072101l6bb6186eg44976349deb95bd6@mail.gmail.com> <1260296967.2139.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <35586fc00912082045q49da70f9g4edd1afaa974610e@mail.gmail.com> <35586fc00912082100k563e1dbcwcf2d9ffacc998591@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1260336123.3680.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2009-12-09 at 00:13 -0500, Seth Vidal wrote: > > On Wed, 9 Dec 2009, sankarshan wrote: > > > On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 10:20 AM, Seth Vidal wrote: > > > >> you can't catch it beforehand. You can really only react to problems and > >> address them well. > > > > Precisely. When reacting you'd need a existing page that specifically > > mentions the kind of transgressions. Which is being handled by the > > page drafted by Paul. > > > > And the hall-monitors policy pretty much covers it. > > Don't be a jerk, we'll let you know when you've crossed the line. I didn't know anything about hall monitors before this thread. And the post in question was up for several hours - apparently they did not notice it? ~m From jkeating at redhat.com Wed Dec 9 05:27:52 2009 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 21:27:52 -0800 Subject: Planet material In-Reply-To: <1260336123.3680.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <35586fc00912072101l6bb6186eg44976349deb95bd6@mail.gmail.com> <1260296967.2139.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <35586fc00912082045q49da70f9g4edd1afaa974610e@mail.gmail.com> <35586fc00912082100k563e1dbcwcf2d9ffacc998591@mail.gmail.com> <1260336123.3680.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1260336472.30425.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2009-12-09 at 00:22 -0500, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > I didn't know anything about hall monitors before this thread. And the > post in question was up for several hours - apparently they did not > notice it? > > I don't believe it is currently the hall monitors job to monitor planet. I believe seth was suggesting we could take that set of people and that set of ideals that is currently being used for the mailing lists and apply them to planet. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mairin at linuxgrrl.com Wed Dec 9 05:32:25 2009 From: mairin at linuxgrrl.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn?= Duffy) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 00:32:25 -0500 Subject: Planet material In-Reply-To: <1260336472.30425.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <35586fc00912072101l6bb6186eg44976349deb95bd6@mail.gmail.com> <1260296967.2139.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <35586fc00912082045q49da70f9g4edd1afaa974610e@mail.gmail.com> <35586fc00912082100k563e1dbcwcf2d9ffacc998591@mail.gmail.com> <1260336123.3680.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1260336472.30425.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1260336745.3680.27.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2009-12-08 at 21:27 -0800, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Wed, 2009-12-09 at 00:22 -0500, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > > I didn't know anything about hall monitors before this thread. And the > > post in question was up for several hours - apparently they did not > > notice it? > > > > > > I don't believe it is currently the hall monitors job to monitor planet. > I believe seth was suggesting we could take that set of people and that > set of ideals that is currently being used for the mailing lists and > apply them to planet. Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh okay. I never heard of the hall monitors before and I didn't realize they are just mailing lists now. Thanks for clearing that up. Sorry for any confusion I may have introduced. ~m From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Wed Dec 9 05:39:01 2009 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (Seth Vidal) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 00:39:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: Planet material In-Reply-To: <1260336745.3680.27.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <35586fc00912072101l6bb6186eg44976349deb95bd6@mail.gmail.com> <1260296967.2139.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <35586fc00912082045q49da70f9g4edd1afaa974610e@mail.gmail.com> <35586fc00912082100k563e1dbcwcf2d9ffacc998591@mail.gmail.com> <1260336123.3680.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1260336472.30425.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1260336745.3680.27.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Dec 2009, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > On Tue, 2009-12-08 at 21:27 -0800, Jesse Keating wrote: >> On Wed, 2009-12-09 at 00:22 -0500, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: >>> I didn't know anything about hall monitors before this thread. And the >>> post in question was up for several hours - apparently they did not >>> notice it? >>> >>> >> >> I don't believe it is currently the hall monitors job to monitor planet. >> I believe seth was suggesting we could take that set of people and that >> set of ideals that is currently being used for the mailing lists and >> apply them to planet. > > Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh okay. I never heard of the hall monitors before > and I didn't realize they are just mailing lists now. Thanks for > clearing that up. Sorry for any confusion I may have introduced. you never heard of the moderators list? On some ummm.... rambunctious threads on fedora-devel-list you hadn't noticed me or josh or spot telling people "this thread is closed"? That was us being moderators. We've also taken some other measures pursuant to our policies and reported those to the board. -sv From inode0 at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 22:30:01 2009 From: inode0 at gmail.com (inode0) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 16:30:01 -0600 Subject: Planet material In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Paul Frields wrote: > We've had a few occasions over the past year where contributors have > put questionable material on the Planet that doesn't reflect the > Fedora Project's mission to lead the advancement of free and open > source software and content as a collaborative community. To build > that community, we should all be committed to "be excellent to each > other." By creating an environment for constructive contribution, we > can more effectively and successfully compare and challenge different > ideas to find the best solutions for advancement, while building the > size, diversity, and strength of our community. > > We have a diversity of backgrounds and values in our community, which > is part of our strength. We don't want to unnecessarily restrict the > audience of people who might become valuable contributors in the > Fedora Project, and that means respecting each other viewpoints even > when we disagree on particulars. We want the Fedora Project to be a > constructive place for anyone to contribute without fear or worry. > > We want our contributors to feel welcome to express themselves, and > not discourage controversial or critical opinions as long as they're > offered in a constructive spirit of improvement. The privilege of > posting on the Fedora Planet also includes a shared responsibility for > all of us to respect our potential readers. To help our contributors > understand how they can make constructive and community-friendly > choices when sending blog posts to the Planet feed, I've drafted a bit > of additional information on our Planet wiki page: > > ?https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Planet#Appropriate_Material Has anyone described what content triggered this reaction? I did not see it before it was taken down and others are also asking in various forums what started all this. Before I post a picture of someone in a bikini to find out if that was really it, can someone just share with the rest of us what it was so we can all understand what is and what isn't permitted? John From tcallawa at redhat.com Wed Dec 9 22:32:36 2009 From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom "spot" Callaway) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 17:32:36 -0500 Subject: Planet material In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B202584.2070603@redhat.com> On 12/09/2009 05:30 PM, inode0 wrote: > Before I post a picture of someone in a bikini to find out if that was > really it, can someone just share with the rest of us what it was so > we can all understand what is and what isn't permitted? It was a screenshot of a Fedora desktop, where the background was set to a rather scantily clad woman. Illegal? Probably not. But it failed the "appropriate for viewing at work" test. ~spot From frankly3d at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 22:35:12 2009 From: frankly3d at gmail.com (Frank Murphy (Frankly3D)) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 22:35:12 +0000 Subject: Planet material In-Reply-To: <4B202584.2070603@redhat.com> References: <4B202584.2070603@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4B202620.5050806@gmail.com> On 09/12/09 22:32, Tom "spot" Callaway wrote: > On 12/09/2009 05:30 PM, inode0 wrote: >> Before I post a picture of someone in a bikini to find out if that was >> really it, can someone just share with the rest of us what it was so >> we can all understand what is and what isn't permitted? > > It was a screenshot of a Fedora desktop, where the background was set to > a rather scantily clad woman. > > Illegal? Probably not. But it failed the "appropriate for viewing at > work" test. > > ~spot > Unless one works as a pole-dancer :D -- Regards, Frank Murphy UTF_8 Encoded. From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Wed Dec 9 22:54:46 2009 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (Seth Vidal) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 17:54:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: Planet material In-Reply-To: <4B202584.2070603@redhat.com> References: <4B202584.2070603@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Dec 2009, Tom \"spot\" Callaway wrote: > On 12/09/2009 05:30 PM, inode0 wrote: >> Before I post a picture of someone in a bikini to find out if that was >> really it, can someone just share with the rest of us what it was so >> we can all understand what is and what isn't permitted? > > It was a screenshot of a Fedora desktop, where the background was set to > a rather scantily clad woman. > > Illegal? Probably not. But it failed the "appropriate for viewing at > work" test. the second item was a video of a woman stripping - and afaict - it had no particular relevance. -sv From inode0 at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 23:47:55 2009 From: inode0 at gmail.com (inode0) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 17:47:55 -0600 Subject: ambassadors "conflict of interest" In-Reply-To: <4B1D0601.5080209@redhat.com> References: <4B1D0601.5080209@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 7:41 AM, Michael Tiemann wrote: > Gianluca Sforna wrote: >> >> Please accept my apologies if this is not the proper place to ask. >> >> I've never read anything against this, so I'm wondering if it was ever >> brought up at all. >> >> Are Fedora ambassadors allowed to also be > name here> ambassadors? >> > > I think it's problematic. ?I think that Fedora ambassadors should > high-value, trusted opinion-leaders, and should embody the energy and > excitement of the Fedora project. ?Somebody who tries to act as a higher > authority of why one would want to use Distribution X or Y for a given > situation, instead of encouraging people outside the community or inside of > it to make Fedora the best distribution for the task in question, are not > being true ambassadors. I think there are some assumptions here that don't really apply in most cases. We do have ambassadors that also have similar roles in other distributions. To my knowledge they do not do what you are describing. While representing Fedora at an event they act appropriately for that role. At other events they represent other groups. Whether the philosophies of the groups are similar enough to allow them to sleep at night I'm happy leaving to their consciences to decide. > I see no conflict whatsoever for somebody to be both a Fedora Ambassador and > also an ambassador for GNOME or KDE or Emacs or PostgreSQL or MySQL, etc. > ?But I think that somebody who has a fistful of distribution ambassadorships > isn't providing the kind of differentiated boost to Fedora that I'd expect > to come from a Fedora Ambassador. I consider myself an ambassador for both Fedora and for RHEL. I do, when I think it is appropriate, suggest RHEL as something a person might want to look into when I think it fits their needs as I understand them better than Fedora can. Is that problematic? John From herlo1 at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 00:01:32 2009 From: herlo1 at gmail.com (Clint Savage) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 17:01:32 -0700 Subject: ambassadors "conflict of interest" In-Reply-To: References: <4B1D0601.5080209@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 4:47 PM, inode0 wrote: > On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 7:41 AM, Michael Tiemann wrote: >> Gianluca Sforna wrote: >>> >>> Please accept my apologies if this is not the proper place to ask. >>> >>> I've never read anything against this, so I'm wondering if it was ever >>> brought up at all. >>> >>> Are Fedora ambassadors allowed to also be >> name here> ambassadors? >>> >> >> I think it's problematic. ?I think that Fedora ambassadors should >> high-value, trusted opinion-leaders, and should embody the energy and >> excitement of the Fedora project. ?Somebody who tries to act as a higher >> authority of why one would want to use Distribution X or Y for a given >> situation, instead of encouraging people outside the community or inside of >> it to make Fedora the best distribution for the task in question, are not >> being true ambassadors. > > I think there are some assumptions here that don't really apply in > most cases. We do have ambassadors that also have similar roles in > other distributions. To my knowledge they do not do what you are > describing. While representing Fedora at an event they act > appropriately for that role. At other events they represent other > groups. Whether the philosophies of the groups are similar enough to > allow them to sleep at night I'm happy leaving to their consciences to > decide. I also agree here with John, with a bit more to say. The fight isn't just for Fedora against other distributions, but it's that we want the code to be free and Fedora most definitely embodies this spirit. However, I think that many other Linux distributions accomplish this task as well. I think it comes down to a perception of what is reality and how we expect Fedora ambassadors to act when not representing Fedora. I believe that representing Linux and free software is just as important and representing more than one Linux distribution does not preclude them from being Ambassadors for Fedora. In fact, I would hope that they would try to emphasize the benefits of Linux, Fedora and any other distribution of Linux rather than disparaging others. This is a community where we have to work together to get free and open source software everywhere and Fedora is just one way of providing that environment. -- snip -- Clint From stickster at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 00:30:37 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 19:30:37 -0500 Subject: Planet material In-Reply-To: References: <4B202584.2070603@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20091210003037.GM9741@victoria.internal.frields.org> On Wed, Dec 09, 2009 at 05:54:46PM -0500, Seth Vidal wrote: > > > On Wed, 9 Dec 2009, Tom \"spot\" Callaway wrote: > > >On 12/09/2009 05:30 PM, inode0 wrote: > >>Before I post a picture of someone in a bikini to find out if that was > >>really it, can someone just share with the rest of us what it was so > >>we can all understand what is and what isn't permitted? > > > >It was a screenshot of a Fedora desktop, where the background was set to > >a rather scantily clad woman. > > > >Illegal? Probably not. But it failed the "appropriate for viewing at > >work" test. > > the second item was a video of a woman stripping - and afaict - it > had no particular relevance. Actually, the second item was the static shot for that video, which didn't offer any context for the video itself. I was told the video itself was intended to be a joke about NSFW videos, although it wasn't funny or that appropriate for our Planet. I didn't mean to be unecessarily coy about the particular details of this case. This kind of material has made it to the planet in several other previous instances, and I didn't want to point fingers at anyone in particular if we haven't made some clear examples of what's inappropriate. We try to rely on common sense, but individual and cultural differences do exist, so I hope spelling out those examples will help. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From tiemann at redhat.com Thu Dec 10 00:40:22 2009 From: tiemann at redhat.com (Michael Tiemann) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2009 19:40:22 -0500 Subject: ambassadors "conflict of interest" In-Reply-To: References: <4B1D0601.5080209@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4B204376.90908@redhat.com> inode0 wrote: > I consider myself an ambassador for both Fedora and for RHEL. I do, > when I think it is appropriate, suggest RHEL as something a person > might want to look into when I think it fits their needs as I > understand them better than Fedora can. Is that problematic? > Nope...I had (foolishly) not considered that particular case, which is a very useful case indeed. I stand corrected, but I also think that to me the title of Fedora Ambassador is a very high standard, and not something to be granted or taken lightly. M From stickster at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 13:58:36 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul Frields) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 08:58:36 -0500 Subject: TLA? In-Reply-To: References: <20091202015043.GB19612@victoria.internal.frields.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 12:49 AM, Baransel Sa??nda - Fedora wrote: >> Hi Baransel, you do not need a TLA unless you are planning to use the >> Fedora trademarks (i.e. the "fedora" name) in your registered domain >> name. > > Yes I'm planning to use the name. > >> >> As a separate issue, if you'd like I can certainly connect you with >> some Fedora Ambassadors in your area who might be able to give you >> tips or assistance on content or setup. ?Let me know if that's >> something in which you're interested. > > Thanks for the offer, I'm planning to contact with other ambassadors as soon > as site goes live.I already completed the setup, I even had time to work on > the public fedora mirror of website, I'm trying to get legal permission for > 2 months.Yet there is no response from legal at fedora*.I was going to connect > with you in the end of this week. > I just need TLA before my coupon expires Hi Baransel, the Board asked for a brief summary of what you're planning to offer at the site. Will it be a blog? Public forums? Something else? What will a user see when he or she visits the front page? The Board was not opposed to offering a TLA, and simply wants to know what the agreement will cover. Paul From stickster at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 20:42:21 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 15:42:21 -0500 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2009-12-10 UTC 1700 Message-ID: <20091210204221.GZ3120@victoria.internal.frields.org> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meeting:Board_meeting_2009-12-10 == Roll Call == * Present: Paul Frields, Josh Boyer, John Poelstra, Dennis Gilmore, Mike McGrath, Bill Nottingham, Matt Domsch, Tom 'spot' Callaway * Regrets: Dimitris Gilmore, Chris Aillon == Last meeting == https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meeting:Board_meeting_2009-12-03 == Current issues == === Trademark agreements === * Paul is sorting these out today and tomorrow === fedoraturkiye.org === https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2009-December/msg00001.html * Board is not interested in replicating Fedora Infrastructure site * Matt says he cannot host a mirror (Matt investigated and informed requestor - insufficent bandwidth for a US-hosted mirror) * Paul suggested to contributor that a localized site would be beneficial and could be approved '''NEXT STEPS:''' * waiting for the contributor to get back to us with details === Planet guidelines === https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Planet#Appropriate_Material * Stems from some planet posts that showed up during FUDCon * Want to have a list of things that are not allowed * Board to decide: OK to use these guidelines? * Should we add this to the hall monitors' activity? ** No, just a ticket filed with infrastructure should be fine. * mmcgrath opposed - on the grounds that censorship is bad ** spot and pfrields: Censorship is preventing output from users; we are simply refusing to aggregate and pass it on * pfrields: having some limits to aggregation is the cost of not restricting the subject matter on the Planet ** allowing some non-Fedora material on the Planet has a valuable social aspect for community building ** dgilmore: We all have lives of which Fedora is a part * DECISION: ** Planet content will continue to be dealt with case-by-case once contributors notify a Board member or the sysadmin team ** The Board will manage the list of inappropriate material as needed ** We will not ask the hall monitors to moderate content at this time * '''ACTION:''' Paul to add a bit that tells people what to do if they're not sure if something is inappropriate, and a link to report questionable material. === FUDCon follow-up === * excellent content and attendance * dgilmore: first time we have not been able to fit all proposals in.(maybe we can look at having an overflow session) * mmcgrath: Budget constraint on transportation -- connecting flights where I lost a whole day, similarly with smooge+toshio+jkeating+inode0+others * mdomsch: People who might not have come due to timing other than encouragement from others ** There was a lot of IRC to help mitigate if people aren't on site * poelcat: How about starting earlier? It felt like we were getting started half way through the day. ** not taking full advantage of cost of bringing all these people together ** At RDU FUDCon a few times back breakfast was at 8:30 AM and we started at 9:00 AM. ** dgilmore: maybe the key is having breakfast at the event * poelcat: internet speed was a problem (at both the hotel, and at the university) ** could we bring in an outside internet provider at a price that would not kill us? *** mdomsch: possible yes, inexpensive no ** poelcat: setting the ''problem reasons'' aside, the internet is our primary communication and producitivty mechanism so it seems important that it works well ** digilmore: being outside of the US, restricted alternative personal connection methods like WIMAX or phone tethering ** mdomsch: very hard problem to solve when you bring 150-200+ people to an event * '''ACTIONS:''' Board members to send additional feedback to fudcon-planning -at- lists fedoraproject org as appropriate === Updates === https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Desktop/Whiteboards/UpdateExperience https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2009-October/msg00222.html * pfrields: Talk by McCann + Aillon at FUDCon was interesting because it acknowledges and ties together a lot of common problems with some thoughts on solving them * '''ACTION:''' Paul will break out the sub-thread to it's own topic on f-a-b to restart discussion. * '''ACTION:''' Paul to invite Jon McCann, to expand on (with Chris) the update talk they gave at FUDCon == New issues == === Ad Bard banner offer === * Ad Bard is a FSF-approved free software project advertising network, offering to run a Fedora Project ad banner over January 2010 * We just need to put together a specific sized/formatted ad to link to fp.o * '''ACTION:''' Josh to coordinate with the design team and get something sent out == Next meeting == * Proposed: Thu Dec 17 2009 - 1700 UTC/12:00pm US Eastern -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From chitlesh.goorah at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 07:17:10 2009 From: chitlesh.goorah at gmail.com (Chitlesh GOORAH) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 08:17:10 +0100 Subject: ambassadors "conflict of interest" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50baabb30912102317n49b1a17bn8401294275abd801@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 10:06 AM, Gianluca Sforna <> wrote: > Please accept my apologies if this is not the proper place to ask. > > I've never read anything against this, so I'm wondering if it was ever > brought up at all. > > Are Fedora ambassadors allowed to also be name here> ambassadors? Hello there, I tend to say yes you can, but after reading the comments of others I'll now say yes and no. * First ask what is the purpose of the Fedora Ambassador Project ? Please bear in mind here i'm not referring to the purpose of the Fedora Ambassador. It's not only about events, like some comments tend to reflect. It's not only about wearing a blue polo shirt either. It also entails the _quality_ of information being spread, what is the accuracy of the information being spread and is it the professional way to do so ?. You started this thread not sure whether it is suitable for this mailing list or not. A Fedora Ambassador was supposed to know the Fedora Project and how to get feedback out of Fedora Project to the public and get feedback into the Fedora Project so that things can achieve efficiently. * "Fedora Ambassador" is a title which many people abuse or wrongly use it. Another question one should ask is : What is my purpose as a Fedora Ambassador with respect to the core values of the Fedora Project ? "The love for Opensource". Talking about how good is opensource is not enough. These opensource philosophies should also be respected. "Fedora Ambassador" should ensure that these philosophies are respected. For e.g. there is a linkedin group "opensource X", however big corporates are posting marketing items of their non-opensource products there. What is the role of the Fedora Ambassador here ? Will the word of a Fedora Ambassador gain more respect than a normal person if one says "Listen keep your proprietary solutions out of this group" Does the Fedora Ambassador status bring more people to agree with what the Fedora Ambassador replied ? There are many cases like these where we(fedora contributors) need people(ideally Fedora Ambassadors). But if there are no Fedora Ambassador available to fill this need, then what can the Fedora Ambassador do ? It is also a role to lead and manage that takes time, having a dual-title with other group, one may not have enough time to achieve it. * "Fedora Ambassador" IS NOT a title for self-marketing. That said, if you plan to use fedora ambassador title and ubuntu equivalent title for example and you are not contributing for the proper communication between both. Then it is pointless. It could also be considered as self-marketing. Human errors are common. Let's say a fedora contributor said something pretty bad about another distribution. With your dual-title, everyone expects you to play a role in restoring the peace and harmony again. * Your purpose as a Fedora Ambassador. When joining the Fedora Ambassador project, one should have a personal goal to achieve with the Fedora Ambassador title. What was your goal ? Is it about + ensuring communication and sharing between different projects ? + using your personal skills to help Fedora Project to get a professional marketing image ? + mentoring new local contributors ? + the excitement to complete random requests from both fedora contributors and public to achieve some sort of communication relay ? + .... * "Fedora Ambassador" fills the holes of Fedora contributors. Fedora Ambassador task is not only about spreading the word from the Fedora project to the outside world (pay attention to the direction). It is also to help sub fedora projects in getting the deserved marketing value. That said, a Fedora Ambassador is an ideal person within the Fedora Community to get promotional material prepared, give feedbacks about the existing promotional material, find a fedora contributor to improve both the content and visual aids, see what in the real life what is the competing product is doing in terms of marketing and why the opensource software in question is missing to attract the masses. There are so many roles within the Fedora Project where the Fedora Ambassador can play a vital role as a leader. * Dual-title status versus Fedora Budget ? Having dual-title reflects time spent on each. Other Fedora contributors might contribute their full spare-time for Fedora Project. It would be unfair for Fedora Project to cover the expenses of this Fedora Ambassador and not on one contributing his/her full spare-time. It sadly happened in the past, where a Fedora contributor (actually with a dual-title too) for about 3months of activity was reimbursed for his travel to an event and during that event he spent his time roaming from conference room to conference room (non fedora related). Now he is no longer contributing for Fedora. Could that money be well spent ? I would love instead to use that more for creating FEL livedvds. Creating livedvds, takes time in ensuring it happens. Hence another example about how Fedora Ambassador can contribute in filling the holes of the other fedora friend, by getting things done. Fedora contributors are counting on Fedora Ambassadors in achieving X, Y and Z with or without dual-title status. However it is expected to hear (in event reports, blogs, ...) the feedbacks of those having dual-title status about how the Fedora Ambassador title help him/her in achieving X, Y and Z: Kind regards, Chitlesh Goorah From stickster at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 15:00:42 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 10:00:42 -0500 Subject: Fedora Board, FESCo & FAmSCo Elections - Voting Information In-Reply-To: <9440004.1881259972380235.JavaMail.nigjones@njones.bne.redhat.com> References: <1846964.1861259971953089.JavaMail.nigjones@njones.bne.redhat.com> <9440004.1881259972380235.JavaMail.nigjones@njones.bne.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20091214150042.GC3141@victoria.internal.frields.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Fri, Dec 04, 2009 at 07:19:42PM -0500, Nigel Jones wrote: > **** Please Note **** > There will be a Fedora Infrastructure outage during the voting period that > may effect the voting application, as a result we have brought the voting > start date forward to the 5th December instead of the 8th December. > > As announced by Paul Frields in the event of extended outage, we will as > appropriate extend the voting period. > > We have also implemented a new feature in our voting software, so users > can verify their votes. Vote verification can be done at: > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/voting/verify > You will be prompted for your Fedora Account System username and password > and a list of elections where votes have been recorded will be listed. > > > For more information please refer to: > > Fedora Infrastructure Outage Information: > * https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-announce-list/2009-December/msg00000.html > * https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/1845 > > Contingency plans in case of extended outage: > * https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2009-December/msg00014.html > ********************* The series of outages have been very short overall, but upper estimates of various outages possibly affecting the voting application are close to 8 hours. Therefore, in keeping with our contingency plan, the voting period for the Board, FESCo, and FAmSCo elections will be extended by one additional day. These elections now end on 2009-12-16 UTC 2359. - -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFLJlMarNvJN70RNxcRAr+nAJ4mrm1hOvNLoafJBJVCSLbJDRs6vACeOc2H VG/6jW/S+2E1rqDLX5Uganw= =DbVy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From prjmellors at googlemail.com Mon Dec 7 09:14:21 2009 From: prjmellors at googlemail.com (paul Mellors) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 09:14:21 +0000 Subject: ambassadors "conflict of interest" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8a78b9130912070114v649b26a8w5e218505fa4f0f49@mail.gmail.com> Unless someone else corrects me, then i don't see why not :) I'm also a ubuntu fan, Debian Fan, think i was a OpenSuse ambassador at one point. I just prefer and support Fedora now :) Paul [MooDoo] 2009/12/7 Gianluca Sforna > Please accept my apologies if this is not the proper place to ask. > > I've never read anything against this, so I'm wondering if it was ever > brought up at all. > > Are Fedora ambassadors allowed to also be name here> ambassadors? > > -- > Gianluca Sforna > > http://morefedora.blogspot.com > http://www.linkedin.com/in/gianlucasforna > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stickster at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 16:16:00 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 11:16:00 -0500 Subject: Update/install experience Message-ID: <20091214161600.GH3141@victoria.internal.frields.org> At FUDCon, Christopher Aillon and Jon McCann gave an interesting talk on the Fedora software update/installation experience. Bill Nottingham and I were present, but given that other Board members have had questions about this talk, I wanted to bubble this topic up for some more attention. I'm not sure how many other Board or FESCo members were in attendance; there were many compelling talks at FUDCon from which attendees had to choose. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Desktop/Whiteboards/UpdateExperience I invited Jon to come to this week's Board meeting to basically give a slightly compressed version of the FUDCon talk, and for us to discuss how the ideas in that talk might impact groups across Fedora like QA, rel-eng, packagers, and others. The point of this meeting is for Board members to ask questions about, and understand, the whiteboard and its implications. >From reading the whiteboard, there's a decent amount of overlap with some of the efforts to improve Rawhide. Currently I think those are limited to making Rawhide more regularly installable, but we shouldn't avoid thinking about how to make Rawhide more regularly *usable* too. Christohper Aillon had also posted some thoughts earlier about the way the Mozilla sheriffs process results in a more usable nightly tip for products: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2009-October/msg00100.html Paul ----- Forwarded message from William Jon McCann ----- Hi, On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 1:57 PM, Tom "spot" Callaway wrote: > On 10/16/2009 01:43 PM, William Jon McCann wrote: >> Hi Spot, >> >>>From an experience design perspective, here is the way I think it should be: >> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Desktop/Whiteboards/UpdateExperience >> >> This set of requirements came out of discussions with members of QE, >> rel-eng, and Desktop. >> >> Comments? ?If we can agree on these goals then we just have to figure >> out how make them happen. > > Jon, > > This document... is a bit confusing to me honestly, because I'm not sure > that the terms used are defined effectively. What is a "System > Component"? When you refer to "the app they are using", are you talking > about PackageKit? Yum? XChat? A System Component at least to first approximation is anything that is not an Application. An Application is something like Firefox. A System Component is something like upstart. A rule of thumb may be that if we want something to have an identity then it is very likely an App. I realize that this is a very subtle distinction for many engineers. However, there is a very fundamental difference for users (and therefore for experience designers). > You mention integration tests, but provide no further vision there. Yeah hopefully the people that will be interested in doing this will have more input there. > I also tend to disagree with specific points, such as: > > * System updates may only be deferred for a short time after which they > will be installed automatically. > > (I don't think we ever want to force updates down our users throats, as > well intentioned as we may be. Then again, I might be confused because > you seem to differentiate between "System updates" and "Application > updates"). Yes, realizing the difference between System updates and Application updates is key to understanding this. > It sounds very much like you are advocating a "Service Pack" model, and > I'm not sure that is functionally sane or even desirable. No, it is not the same as a service pack really. > Then again, I could be reading this wrong. > > I think that in general, users only care about updates when they break > something. I'd rather focus on improving the quality (and decreasing the > quantity of) our updates than spend a lot of time worrying about > bundling and delivery times and locations. Hmm, I probably didn't do a very good job getting the point across in that page. I'm trying to describe the experience we want to provide from a design point of view. I don't think you have a chance of improving anything until you can consider an update to be more than just a new package. Jon ----- End forwarded message ----- From kevin at tummy.com Mon Dec 14 18:50:42 2009 From: kevin at tummy.com (Kevin Fenzi) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 11:50:42 -0700 Subject: Update/install experience In-Reply-To: <20091214161600.GH3141@victoria.internal.frields.org> References: <20091214161600.GH3141@victoria.internal.frields.org> Message-ID: <20091214115042.4c00739b@ohm.scrye.com> On Mon, 14 Dec 2009 11:16:00 -0500 "Paul W. Frields" wrote: > At FUDCon, Christopher Aillon and Jon McCann gave an interesting talk > on the Fedora software update/installation experience. Bill > Nottingham and I were present, but given that other Board members have > had questions about this talk, I wanted to bubble this topic up for > some more attention. I'm not sure how many other Board or FESCo > members were in attendance; there were many compelling talks at FUDCon > from which attendees had to choose. > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Desktop/Whiteboards/UpdateExperience I'm still not sure this improves anything, at least from reading the page above (I wasn't able to be at fudcon). So, say we have 30updates/day currently. With this model they would pile up and then be tested in a unit? Then once a week all 210 of them would be pushed out? (The once a day blorp becomes a larger once a week blorp). Who is testing them "as a single unit" ? How much time for testing would there be? If another update shows up the day before the weekly push, it would be deferred to the next one? How about 2 days? 3? Would security updates hold for the next weekly push? Or push out as they are done? If so, wouldn't that mess up in progress testing? kevin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From walters at verbum.org Mon Dec 14 18:53:08 2009 From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2009 18:53:08 +0000 Subject: Update/install experience In-Reply-To: <20091214161600.GH3141@victoria.internal.frields.org> References: <20091214161600.GH3141@victoria.internal.frields.org> Message-ID: Hi, Let me briefly summarize my takeaway from the discussion before it gets flushed from short term memory: On the Fedora infrastructure side, the two main things that I remember are: * Do enhancement updates at most once a month (keeping one repo, so enhancements might get pushed along with security, but better than the arbitrary time now) * AutoQA hook in updates process Most of the experience problems in my mind are actually in the desktop UI we have currently; i.e. don't apply if you're running a virtual private server which you administer over ssh or whatever. Though there is some overlap; e.g. providing the user/admin with knowledge of what needs to be restarted consistently. I wrote up a summary of my discussions with mizmo and skvidal here: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Desktop/Whiteboards/UpdateExperienceImplementation The concept of doing the per-application update in the UI still needs fleshing out; the whole thing is probably an F14 completion type thing, depending on resourcing; though F13 could have some more short-term hacks, say just target Firefox specifically as some people have been advocating. From william.jon.mccann at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 07:24:23 2009 From: william.jon.mccann at gmail.com (William Jon McCann) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 02:24:23 -0500 Subject: Planet material In-Reply-To: <6d4237680912080622w6326f47cica95cd0cb2c41600@mail.gmail.com> References: <407b25020912072110r655577d4x4845321e5e405b1f@mail.gmail.com> <2cb10c440912072207w53da2177k13bb7b406e9506e4@mail.gmail.com> <6d4237680912080035m329d46e9i8933b5347fda9c19@mail.gmail.com> <20091208135804.GA23810@wolff.to> <6d4237680912080622w6326f47cica95cd0cb2c41600@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <939dd5750912142324q1a71bbf0ybe64e6a66d9055e3@mail.gmail.com> Hi, On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 9:22 AM, Dimitris Glezos wrote: > On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 3:58 PM, Bruno Wolff III wrote: >> On Tue, Dec 08, 2009 at 10:35:35 +0200, >> ?Dimitris Glezos wrote: >>> >>> I'm also a supporter for planets that aren't only technical but have a >>> more personal atmosphere. We could write down some advices (if you >>> blog too much about non-Fedora bits, consider narrowing your planet >>> feed, same if you're a non-english speaker, etc). >> >> This seems odd. I would think more non-English posts would be a good thing. >> Especially if people have a way to filter blog entries based on language. > > Right on both points. Would be great if there was a way to select your > languages and only see those posts every time you visit planet.fpo. Right, the confusion of languages all in the same feed doesn't really accomplish much besides showing that we have contributors from all over the place. However, I don't think it does that as effectively as say a map. (For example, http://live.gnome.org/GnomeWorldWide) On the other hand, we compromise much by having a feed that very few if any people can read in its entirety. It is, at least partially, wasting everyone's time. It also doesn't do as much as it could to help us learn what each other is doing - or to facilitate cross community communication. Nor does it help people outside the project get a good view of what is going on here. It is one of the top reasons I've heard people give for why they don't read it. I think we'd be a little put off if mailing lists, wikis, bugs, or IRC conversations were conducted in many languages at the same time. For these we've adopted a lingua franca. I propose we do the same for the "default" Fedora Planet feed. Certainly there are people in our community who don't speak English, blog in multiple languages, etc. We should be able to provide a place for that too - maybe separate language feeds linked right off the main planet page. Hopefully this isn't a novel or controversial idea. Many other technical community blog feeds are doing exactly this already. In GNOME, we have many contributors from all over the world all taking part in and sharing a single conversation. This is a pretty powerful concept that reaches beyond the feed itself. While it is true that my native language is English, many of the more vocal supporters of using a lingua franca are in fact not native English speakers. They generally acknowledge it is important to all take part in the same conversation if we are to share or goals, ideas, and ideals. I think it is important to think about what role we expect the Fedora Planet to serve. What is the point of it? If we think that any part of the answer involves communication, being part of a conversation (whether internally or externally), or telling a story then I think we are better off if we can agree on common terms. Maybe slightly too abstract but worth mentioning... I think the themes on which we want to base Fedora marketing (and the Planet does play a huge role in this at least to enthusiast communities) include: cohesive, focused, considerate. And work our way away from disjoint, diffuse, contentious. Productive people tend to like being part of the former. Thanks, Jon PS. Other things that I think would help a lot include: topic specific feeds (eg. virtualization - see Microsoft's tech blogs for great examples of this in action), links to blogger biographical information saying what they work on and how active they are in that work (maybe a kind of meritocracy index - though this seems really hard to do). From wwoods at redhat.com Tue Dec 15 16:06:33 2009 From: wwoods at redhat.com (Will Woods) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 11:06:33 -0500 Subject: Update/install experience In-Reply-To: <20091214115042.4c00739b@ohm.scrye.com> References: <20091214161600.GH3141@victoria.internal.frields.org> <20091214115042.4c00739b@ohm.scrye.com> Message-ID: <1260893193.2390.17.camel@metroid> On Mon, 2009-12-14 at 11:50 -0700, Kevin Fenzi wrote: > On Mon, 14 Dec 2009 11:16:00 -0500 > "Paul W. Frields" wrote: > > > At FUDCon, Christopher Aillon and Jon McCann gave an interesting talk > > on the Fedora software update/installation experience. Bill > > Nottingham and I were present, but given that other Board members have > > had questions about this talk, I wanted to bubble this topic up for > > some more attention. I'm not sure how many other Board or FESCo > > members were in attendance; there were many compelling talks at FUDCon > > from which attendees had to choose. > > > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Desktop/Whiteboards/UpdateExperience > > I'm still not sure this improves anything, at least from reading the > page above (I wasn't able to be at fudcon). > > So, say we have 30updates/day currently. The average starts at around 25-30/day for the first 4 months and then declines to 20 or less over the life of the release. Check the Bodhi "Metrics" pages for some data. > With this model they would pile up and then be tested in a unit? > Then once a week all 210 of them would be pushed out? > (The once a day blorp becomes a larger once a week blorp). Me, I'd prefer a once-a-month drop of changes, but yes. Same amount of changes, just batched into larger, periodic system updates. > Who is testing them "as a single unit" ? Anyone who's interested in testing updates or getting early access to new fixes and features. Collectively referred to as "QA". I'm sure you've heard of us? > How much time for testing would there be? If another update shows up > the day before the weekly push, it would be deferred to the next one? > How about 2 days? 3? Policy remains to be set here. I'd personally advocate monthly update pushes with a freeze at least one week before the release. Stuff that comes in after the freeze goes into the next push. > Would security updates hold for the next weekly push? Absolutely not; security updates will always go out as soon as they're ready. Note that this would mean that we have *much* more available manpower to test the security updates. > Or push out as they are done? If so, wouldn't that mess up in progress > testing? Not really. Security updates are usually small, targeted changes, and they're pretty uncommon - I don't have exact numbers but I'd estimate something like 10/month across the entire distribution; the number of security updates for a typical install will be a subset of that. The destabilizing effect is much, much less than (e.g.) the daily changes we get during the freezes for Alpha/Beta. It's a manageable amount. -w From kevin at tummy.com Tue Dec 15 23:48:38 2009 From: kevin at tummy.com (Kevin Fenzi) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2009 16:48:38 -0700 Subject: Update/install experience In-Reply-To: <1260893193.2390.17.camel@metroid> References: <20091214161600.GH3141@victoria.internal.frields.org> <20091214115042.4c00739b@ohm.scrye.com> <1260893193.2390.17.camel@metroid> Message-ID: <20091215164838.62469dec@ohm.scrye.com> On Tue, 15 Dec 2009 11:06:33 -0500 Will Woods wrote: ...snip... > > So, say we have 30updates/day currently. > > The average starts at around 25-30/day for the first 4 months and then > declines to 20 or less over the life of the release. Check the Bodhi > "Metrics" pages for some data. Yep. > > With this model they would pile up and then be tested in a unit? > > Then once a week all 210 of them would be pushed out? > > (The once a day blorp becomes a larger once a week blorp). > > Me, I'd prefer a once-a-month drop of changes, but yes. Same amount of > changes, just batched into larger, periodic system updates. ok. > > Who is testing them "as a single unit" ? > > Anyone who's interested in testing updates or getting early access to > new fixes and features. Collectively referred to as "QA". I'm sure > you've heard of us? Sure. :) I am just worried that this is a "well, everyone will jump in and test" type of thing. If they aren't doing so now, how does this setup increase QA folks? Or you think the current folks in QA will be able to test all updates in the flow if it was just organized a bit better? How many problems or bugs are due to integration with other updates? In the cases of new package A using new package B, wouldn't you currently have to have both installed to test A anyhow? > > How much time for testing would there be? If another update shows up > > the day before the weekly push, it would be deferred to the next > > one? How about 2 days? 3? > > Policy remains to be set here. I'd personally advocate monthly update > pushes with a freeze at least one week before the release. Stuff that > comes in after the freeze goes into the next push. So, this would be essentially "12.1", "12.2"? Ie, minor point releases of stable release X. > > Would security updates hold for the next weekly push? > > Absolutely not; security updates will always go out as soon as they're > ready. Note that this would mean that we have *much* more available > manpower to test the security updates. Why? Wouldn't the people who test be also testing the next monthly blob? Or there would be no testing on it until it's frozen? > > Or push out as they are done? If so, wouldn't that mess up in > > progress testing? > > Not really. Security updates are usually small, targeted changes, and > they're pretty uncommon - I don't have exact numbers but I'd estimate > something like 10/month across the entire distribution; the number of > security updates for a typical install will be a subset of that. yeah, much smaller to be sure. > The destabilizing effect is much, much less than (e.g.) the daily > changes we get during the freezes for Alpha/Beta. It's a manageable > amount. So wait... are we talking rawhide here or stable releases? or Both? kevin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From duffy at fedoraproject.org Wed Dec 16 05:06:51 2009 From: duffy at fedoraproject.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn_Duffy?=) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 00:06:51 -0500 Subject: Planet material In-Reply-To: <939dd5750912142324q1a71bbf0ybe64e6a66d9055e3@mail.gmail.com> References: <407b25020912072110r655577d4x4845321e5e405b1f@mail.gmail.com> <2cb10c440912072207w53da2177k13bb7b406e9506e4@mail.gmail.com> <6d4237680912080035m329d46e9i8933b5347fda9c19@mail.gmail.com> <20091208135804.GA23810@wolff.to> <6d4237680912080622w6326f47cica95cd0cb2c41600@mail.gmail.com> <939dd5750912142324q1a71bbf0ybe64e6a66d9055e3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B286AEB.7040400@fedoraproject.org> Hi Jon, William Jon McCann wrote: > I think we'd be a little put off if mailing lists, wikis, bugs, or IRC > conversations were conducted in many languages at the same time. For > these we've adopted a lingua franca. I propose we do the same for the > "default" Fedora Planet feed. Many multilingual posters post both in their native tongue and also provide an English translation on the bottom. What do you think about those posts and their appropriateness for the main planet feed? As an American I worry because I know in other places being multilingual is far more common and folks from such places are part of our community. I think what might be nice is across any planets we have, to have a sticky control where you check off the languages that you are interested in, and you can check off more than one so if I want to read both English and Spanish posts on the same page I can. And that setting could be sticky / controlled by cookie so I ever only have to click it once per computer I read from. (would be nice if the rss URL presented would be modified to match my in-page language settings as well.) What do you think about that idea? Also, should there even be a main planet feed? Maybe we've outgrown it, same as we obviously outgrew the barcamp process at FUDcon Toronto (a good thing, so many awesome talks!) Maybe we could re-envision the planet as multiple sub-plants that could kind of mirror the topics of the major mailing lists, and the front page could be a dashboard of what's going on underneath - kinda like the front page of news.google? Then... maybe I'm going too nuts here.... but we could take a feed from Fedora Insight, which is going to be edited / high-quality content, post that up front and center... then have the individual topical planet feeds in two or three columns underneath organized by category. Like the latest 2 or 3 posts from each topic maybe... ~m From tiemann at redhat.com Wed Dec 16 12:08:56 2009 From: tiemann at redhat.com (Michael Tiemann) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 07:08:56 -0500 Subject: Planet material In-Reply-To: <4B286AEB.7040400@fedoraproject.org> References: <407b25020912072110r655577d4x4845321e5e405b1f@mail.gmail.com> <2cb10c440912072207w53da2177k13bb7b406e9506e4@mail.gmail.com> <6d4237680912080035m329d46e9i8933b5347fda9c19@mail.gmail.com> <20091208135804.GA23810@wolff.to> <6d4237680912080622w6326f47cica95cd0cb2c41600@mail.gmail.com> <939dd5750912142324q1a71bbf0ybe64e6a66d9055e3@mail.gmail.com> <4B286AEB.7040400@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <4B28CDD8.4010308@redhat.com> M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > Hi Jon, > > William Jon McCann wrote: >> I think we'd be a little put off if mailing lists, wikis, bugs, or IRC >> conversations were conducted in many languages at the same time. For >> these we've adopted a lingua franca. I propose we do the same for the >> "default" Fedora Planet feed. > > Many multilingual posters post both in their native tongue and also > provide an English translation on the bottom. What do you think about > those posts and their appropriateness for the main planet feed? I think they rock! I think they shout from the rooftops that this is an international community, and an inclusive one, too. M From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Wed Dec 16 13:27:05 2009 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (Seth Vidal) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 08:27:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: Planet material In-Reply-To: <4B28CDD8.4010308@redhat.com> References: <407b25020912072110r655577d4x4845321e5e405b1f@mail.gmail.com> <2cb10c440912072207w53da2177k13bb7b406e9506e4@mail.gmail.com> <6d4237680912080035m329d46e9i8933b5347fda9c19@mail.gmail.com> <20091208135804.GA23810@wolff.to> <6d4237680912080622w6326f47cica95cd0cb2c41600@mail.gmail.com> <939dd5750912142324q1a71bbf0ybe64e6a66d9055e3@mail.gmail.com> <4B286AEB.7040400@fedoraproject.org> <4B28CDD8.4010308@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Dec 2009, Michael Tiemann wrote: > M?ir?n Duffy wrote: >> Hi Jon, >> >> William Jon McCann wrote: >>> I think we'd be a little put off if mailing lists, wikis, bugs, or IRC >>> conversations were conducted in many languages at the same time. For >>> these we've adopted a lingua franca. I propose we do the same for the >>> "default" Fedora Planet feed. >> >> Many multilingual posters post both in their native tongue and also provide >> an English translation on the bottom. What do you think about those posts >> and their appropriateness for the main planet feed? > I think they rock! I think they shout from the rooftops that this is an > international community, and an inclusive one, too. > I concur. -sv From stickster at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 14:22:14 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 09:22:14 -0500 Subject: Planet material In-Reply-To: <4B28CDD8.4010308@redhat.com> References: <407b25020912072110r655577d4x4845321e5e405b1f@mail.gmail.com> <2cb10c440912072207w53da2177k13bb7b406e9506e4@mail.gmail.com> <6d4237680912080035m329d46e9i8933b5347fda9c19@mail.gmail.com> <20091208135804.GA23810@wolff.to> <6d4237680912080622w6326f47cica95cd0cb2c41600@mail.gmail.com> <939dd5750912142324q1a71bbf0ybe64e6a66d9055e3@mail.gmail.com> <4B286AEB.7040400@fedoraproject.org> <4B28CDD8.4010308@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20091216142214.GG24973@victoria.internal.frields.org> On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 07:08:56AM -0500, Michael Tiemann wrote: > M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > >Hi Jon, > > > >William Jon McCann wrote: > >>I think we'd be a little put off if mailing lists, wikis, bugs, or IRC > >>conversations were conducted in many languages at the same time. For > >>these we've adopted a lingua franca. I propose we do the same for the > >>"default" Fedora Planet feed. > > > >Many multilingual posters post both in their native tongue and > >also provide an English translation on the bottom. What do you > >think about those posts and their appropriateness for the main > >planet feed? > I think they rock! I think they shout from the rooftops that this > is an international community, and an inclusive one, too. I love the fact that we have people conversing about Fedora on their blogs from around the world. In fact, my bet is that we're missing a big chunk of conversation going on internationally, and that not everyone involved is including their material in our feed. But at the same time, I have to acknowledge that (sadly) I'm not much of a polyglot other than some German -- our German friends know my limitations pretty well :-) -- so I can't read or respond to most of these posts in any effective way. Machine translation isn't usually helpful especially when reading nuances. I would love to be able to select languages and topics for what I see on the Planet, with the default being all topics for the lingua franca only. I don't know how one achieves this with the planet software we use; perhaps it comes down to having some sort of app wrapping around the planet to provide these features. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From dimitris at glezos.com Wed Dec 16 14:39:30 2009 From: dimitris at glezos.com (Dimitris Glezos) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 16:39:30 +0200 Subject: Planet material In-Reply-To: <20091216142214.GG24973@victoria.internal.frields.org> References: <407b25020912072110r655577d4x4845321e5e405b1f@mail.gmail.com> <2cb10c440912072207w53da2177k13bb7b406e9506e4@mail.gmail.com> <6d4237680912080035m329d46e9i8933b5347fda9c19@mail.gmail.com> <20091208135804.GA23810@wolff.to> <6d4237680912080622w6326f47cica95cd0cb2c41600@mail.gmail.com> <939dd5750912142324q1a71bbf0ybe64e6a66d9055e3@mail.gmail.com> <4B286AEB.7040400@fedoraproject.org> <4B28CDD8.4010308@redhat.com> <20091216142214.GG24973@victoria.internal.frields.org> Message-ID: <6d4237680912160639n1d31453bwa4ae6c1a47762be0@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 4:22 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 07:08:56AM -0500, Michael Tiemann wrote: >> M?ir?n Duffy wrote: >> >Hi Jon, >> > >> >William Jon McCann wrote: >> >>I think we'd be a little put off if mailing lists, wikis, bugs, or IRC >> >>conversations were conducted in many languages at the same time. ?For >> >>these we've adopted a lingua franca. ?I propose we do the same for the >> >>"default" Fedora Planet feed. >> > >> >Many multilingual posters post both in their native tongue and >> >also provide an English translation on the bottom. What do you >> >think about those posts and their appropriateness for the main >> >planet feed? >> I think they rock! ?I think they shout from the rooftops that this >> is an international community, and an inclusive one, too. > > I love the fact that we have people conversing about Fedora on their > blogs from around the world. ?In fact, my bet is that we're missing a > big chunk of conversation going on internationally, and that not > everyone involved is including their material in our feed. > > But at the same time, I have to acknowledge that (sadly) I'm not much > of a polyglot other than some German -- our German friends know my > limitations pretty well :-) -- so I can't read or respond to most of > these posts in any effective way. ?Machine translation isn't usually > helpful especially when reading nuances. > > I would love to be able to select languages and topics for what I see > on the Planet, with the default being all topics for the lingua franca > only. ?I don't know how one achieves this with the planet software we > use; perhaps it comes down to having some sort of app wrapping around > the planet to provide these features. Here's a development approach that comes in mind: 1. Read the blog post's tags in case it finds the name of a language there. If none, guess the language and if the guess has a high enough confidence, categorize it under the specific language, otherwise, assume it's English. Store the association between blog post - language on a DB. 2. Make specific languages available under http://planet.fpo/l/en+fr+de/. 3. Allow the user to select the languages he understands on the sidebar. Store them in a cookie. 4. Show in sidebar only feeds which are blogging in my languages. 5. Use the browser's default language to highlight blog posts which are in my native language. -d -- Dimitris Glezos Transifex: The Multilingual Publishing Revolution http://www.transifex.net/ -- http://www.indifex.com/ From william.jon.mccann at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 14:56:42 2009 From: william.jon.mccann at gmail.com (William Jon McCann) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 09:56:42 -0500 Subject: Planet material In-Reply-To: <4B286AEB.7040400@fedoraproject.org> References: <407b25020912072110r655577d4x4845321e5e405b1f@mail.gmail.com> <2cb10c440912072207w53da2177k13bb7b406e9506e4@mail.gmail.com> <6d4237680912080035m329d46e9i8933b5347fda9c19@mail.gmail.com> <20091208135804.GA23810@wolff.to> <6d4237680912080622w6326f47cica95cd0cb2c41600@mail.gmail.com> <939dd5750912142324q1a71bbf0ybe64e6a66d9055e3@mail.gmail.com> <4B286AEB.7040400@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <939dd5750912160656i2f2d7cd4wd741f59c1ca63dbb@mail.gmail.com> Hi Mo, 2009/12/16 M?ir?n Duffy : > Hi Jon, > > William Jon McCann wrote: >> >> I think we'd be a little put off if mailing lists, wikis, bugs, or IRC >> conversations were conducted in many languages at the same time. ?For >> these we've adopted a lingua franca. ?I propose we do the same for the >> "default" Fedora Planet feed. > > Many multilingual posters post both in their native tongue and also provide > an English translation on the bottom. What do you think about those posts > and their appropriateness for the main planet feed? Can you link to an example of what you mean? Without seeing it, it still sounds a bit noisy. > As an American I worry because I know in other places being multilingual is > far more common and folks from such places are part of our community. I > think what might be nice is across any planets we have, to have a sticky > control where you check off the languages that you are interested in, and > you can check off more than one so if I want to read both English and > Spanish posts on the same page I can. And that setting could be sticky / > controlled by cookie so I ever only have to click it once per computer I > read from. (would be nice if the rss URL presented would be modified to > match my in-page language settings as well.) What do you think about that > idea? I think it is very important to both understand and be considerate to your audience. I think it is probably more effective to write different content when directing things at different audiences. Also, I'm not sure we want to require configuration of the planet feed - that may send the wrong message about Fedora too (about decision making, audience, just works mentality, etc). I'm really interested in the defaults. However, I think we can and should provide places for language specific feeds. Probably even linked off the main page. Similarly we should also have a way to get to topic specific feeds. However, we should keep in mind that any of this configuration is not relevant for people consuming the feeds through reader software (eg. Google Reader). We should make sure to provide a good experience for that too. > Also, should there even be a main planet feed? Maybe we've outgrown it, same > as we obviously outgrew the barcamp process at FUDcon Toronto (a good thing, > so many awesome talks!) Maybe we could re-envision the planet as multiple > sub-plants that could kind of mirror the topics of the major mailing lists, > and the front page could be a dashboard of what's going on underneath - > kinda like the front page of news.google? I think we need both topic specific feeds and a central square/common feed. This is important for fostering a strong sense of community, shared vision, focus, etc. > Then... maybe I'm going too nuts here.... but we could take a feed from > Fedora Insight, which is going to be edited / high-quality content, post > that up front and center... then have the individual topical planet feeds in > two or three columns underneath organized by category. Like the latest 2 or > 3 posts from each topic maybe... One of the many neat things about open source is that we don't have the public/private split (or not as much). Consumers get to pick the level of detail they are interested in - rather than having the corporate PR folks do it for them. The decision is most often made based on frequency and volume. Planet Fedora will be fast, noisy, rambunctious. My understanding of Fedora Insight is that it will be moderated and with less frequent updates (bigger chunks). Both serve a role and the level of interest (geekiness :) ) will determine which the consumer will select. Personally, I'll take both. Maybe over the holidays or during the week I'll read only Insight but on the train I'll try to catch up with Planet. But I think this is a slightly different than how a lingua franca can help foster a sense of a single Fedora community on the Planet. Thanks, Jon From stickster at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 15:00:20 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 10:00:20 -0500 Subject: Update/install experience In-Reply-To: <20091215164838.62469dec@ohm.scrye.com> References: <20091214161600.GH3141@victoria.internal.frields.org> <20091214115042.4c00739b@ohm.scrye.com> <1260893193.2390.17.camel@metroid> <20091215164838.62469dec@ohm.scrye.com> Message-ID: <20091216150020.GH24973@victoria.internal.frields.org> Jumping in because it's a topic of great interest for me, even though I'm not deeply involved in daily QA work. QA folks, forgive me if I go astray or misrepresent anything. On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 04:48:38PM -0700, Kevin Fenzi wrote: > On Tue, 15 Dec 2009 11:06:33 -0500 > Will Woods wrote: > > > Who is testing them "as a single unit" ? > > > > Anyone who's interested in testing updates or getting early access to > > new fixes and features. Collectively referred to as "QA". I'm sure > > you've heard of us? > > Sure. :) > > I am just worried that this is a "well, everyone will jump in and test" > type of thing. If they aren't doing so now, how does this setup > increase QA folks? Or you think the current folks in QA will be able to > test all updates in the flow if it was just organized a bit better? I would think it's more of both -- the latter in the short term, being able to effectively test something after release day; and in the longer term, the ability to grow a QA community as a result of more discrete tasks available that can be accurately described, documented, and picked up by willing contributors. Right now, once a release is out the door, there's no effective way to test the stable release midstream, and have that be meaningful for other people. Problems in the help channels sometimes come down to users having to run 'rpm -q ' because when you ask "What Fedora are you running?" the answer isn't all that helpful starting a few weeks after release day. (Or maybe even the day after, for that matter.) The first answer is, "Have you updated?" when there's no real answer to whether that will actually help the situation, or might cause an unrelated problem -- typically it's asked because the helper is using latest updates, and this advice is the only way to make sure the user is on the same set of software. I'm not saying that's not a sane approach the way things are right now, and this is not a slam in any way, shape, or form toward the intrepid folks who help users with problems. They're doing the best they can based on the way our releases and updates run right now. But what if we did start offering a collection on a regular basis that rolled in these updates? Reducing the multiplicity of updates and resulting test matrices could make it possible for us to start cataloging fixes and catching regressions before they impact users. There'd be more certainty when helping a user as to what components they actually had installed. Perhaps this wouldn't look like a respin, so I'm purposely not calling it that. > How many problems or bugs are due to integration with other updates? > In the cases of new package A using new package B, wouldn't you > currently have to have both installed to test A anyhow? Which is, I think, one reason why we could, for the moment, step away from thinking about packages and just consider components as the original whiteboard suggested. > > > How much time for testing would there be? If another update shows up > > > the day before the weekly push, it would be deferred to the next > > > one? How about 2 days? 3? > > > > Policy remains to be set here. I'd personally advocate monthly update > > pushes with a freeze at least one week before the release. Stuff that > > comes in after the freeze goes into the next push. > > So, this would be essentially "12.1", "12.2"? > Ie, minor point releases of stable release X. I guess that would be one way to do it, sure. The only problem here is that the original release looks like a '.0' and I'd hate to accumulate all the unsubstantiated baggage that implies. Maybe that's unavoidable though. Already, plenty of people using every Linux distro under the sun wait for their favorite to supposedly "stabilize" before they upgrade to a new release, regardless of whether that approach is actually doing anything for stability. > > > Would security updates hold for the next weekly push? > > > > Absolutely not; security updates will always go out as soon as they're > > ready. Note that this would mean that we have *much* more available > > manpower to test the security updates. > > Why? Wouldn't the people who test be also testing the next monthly > blob? Or there would be no testing on it until it's frozen? > > > > Or push out as they are done? If so, wouldn't that mess up in > > > progress testing? > > > > Not really. Security updates are usually small, targeted changes, and > > they're pretty uncommon - I don't have exact numbers but I'd estimate > > something like 10/month across the entire distribution; the number of > > security updates for a typical install will be a subset of that. > > yeah, much smaller to be sure. Hopefully, having updates out on a more predictable, less frequent basis would make it easier to break time off for security update testing. It's not a matter of creating more time with a miracle, just being able to better plan the teamwork. I can't speak for the QA folks, but I would think that a constantly moving target (such as daily updates to a stable release) makes it really difficult to accurately plan in that way. > > The destabilizing effect is much, much less than (e.g.) the daily > > changes we get during the freezes for Alpha/Beta. It's a manageable > > amount. > > So wait... are we talking rawhide here or stable releases? or Both? Interesting question to be sure. Again, I'd call back to Christopher's post about sheriffs and things that he believes need to be fixed in Fedora's approach if we want to provide a better environment for advancing FOSS, especially including our many developers. Right now we have a lot of people who are (or could be) great Fedora contributors who don't use Rawhide until quite late in the cycle, when it's really in pre-release status. That means we miss out on a lot of insightful bugs, comments, and other contributions. Right now, you not only need to be brave to use Rawhide, you frequently need to have a lot of time on your hands even if you want to use Rawhide to work on something that's more at the development or application level. I tend to think that Rawhide itself could use some rethinking -- while keeping it open (up to some point) for radical changes, making those changes in some unit fashion that would ensure someone could actually install and use the system daily to a reasonable degree. It would be ludicrous to say "No bugs allowed in Rawhide," but there's probably a basic level of functionality we could ensure, so that it'd be more usable for daily work and development by people who can still live with more bugs than you'd expect in a stable release. For instance, the system boots on certain definite sets of hardware and a VM, and lets you login, start a web browser, and visit pre-defined web pages. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Wed Dec 16 15:11:37 2009 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (Seth Vidal) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 10:11:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: Update/install experience In-Reply-To: <20091216150020.GH24973@victoria.internal.frields.org> References: <20091214161600.GH3141@victoria.internal.frields.org> <20091214115042.4c00739b@ohm.scrye.com> <1260893193.2390.17.camel@metroid> <20091215164838.62469dec@ohm.scrye.com> <20091216150020.GH24973@victoria.internal.frields.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Dec 2009, Paul W. Frields wrote: > Jumping in because it's a topic of great interest for me, even though > I'm not deeply involved in daily QA work. QA folks, forgive me if I > go astray or misrepresent anything. > > On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 04:48:38PM -0700, Kevin Fenzi wrote: >> On Tue, 15 Dec 2009 11:06:33 -0500 >> Will Woods wrote: >>>> Who is testing them "as a single unit" ? >>> >>> Anyone who's interested in testing updates or getting early access to >>> new fixes and features. Collectively referred to as "QA". I'm sure >>> you've heard of us? >> >> Sure. :) >> >> I am just worried that this is a "well, everyone will jump in and test" >> type of thing. If they aren't doing so now, how does this setup >> increase QA folks? Or you think the current folks in QA will be able to >> test all updates in the flow if it was just organized a bit better? > > Problems in the help channels sometimes come down to users having to > run 'rpm -q ' because when you ask "What Fedora are > you running?" the answer isn't all that helpful starting a few weeks > after release day. Actually yum may be able to help with that, now. The 'yum version' command allows us to setup groups of pkgs to query and produce a checksum that can be easily compared. It'd be possible to check a base set of pkgs to see if they match up to what is useful for testing. from the docs: version Produces a "version" of the rpmdb, and of the enabled reposito- ries if "all" is given as the first argument. You can also spec- ify version groups in the version-groups config. file. If you pass -v, for verbose mode, more information is listed. The ver- sion is calculated by taking a sha1 hash of the packages (in sorted order), and the checksum_type/checksum_data entries from the yumdb. Note that this rpmdb version is now also used signif- icantly within yum (esp. in yum history). -sv From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Wed Dec 16 15:14:40 2009 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (Seth Vidal) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 10:14:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: Planet material In-Reply-To: <6d4237680912160639n1d31453bwa4ae6c1a47762be0@mail.gmail.com> References: <407b25020912072110r655577d4x4845321e5e405b1f@mail.gmail.com> <2cb10c440912072207w53da2177k13bb7b406e9506e4@mail.gmail.com> <6d4237680912080035m329d46e9i8933b5347fda9c19@mail.gmail.com> <20091208135804.GA23810@wolff.to> <6d4237680912080622w6326f47cica95cd0cb2c41600@mail.gmail.com> <939dd5750912142324q1a71bbf0ybe64e6a66d9055e3@mail.gmail.com> <4B286AEB.7040400@fedoraproject.org> <4B28CDD8.4010308@redhat.com> <20091216142214.GG24973@victoria.internal.frields.org> <6d4237680912160639n1d31453bwa4ae6c1a47762be0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Dec 2009, Dimitris Glezos wrote: > Here's a development approach that comes in mind: > > 1. Read the blog post's tags in case it finds the name of a language > there. If none, guess the language and if the guess has a high enough > confidence, categorize it under the specific language, otherwise, > assume it's English. Store the association between blog post - > language on a DB. > 2. Make specific languages available under http://planet.fpo/l/en+fr+de/. > 3. Allow the user to select the languages he understands on the > sidebar. Store them in a cookie. > 4. Show in sidebar only feeds which are blogging in my languages. > 5. Use the browser's default language to highlight blog posts which > are in my native language. > okay the thing most folks are missing here is what they've always missed. This isn't about separating things out on the webpage. It's about making the rss feeds make sense. -sv From william.jon.mccann at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 15:22:15 2009 From: william.jon.mccann at gmail.com (William Jon McCann) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 10:22:15 -0500 Subject: Planet material In-Reply-To: <4B28CDD8.4010308@redhat.com> References: <407b25020912072110r655577d4x4845321e5e405b1f@mail.gmail.com> <2cb10c440912072207w53da2177k13bb7b406e9506e4@mail.gmail.com> <6d4237680912080035m329d46e9i8933b5347fda9c19@mail.gmail.com> <20091208135804.GA23810@wolff.to> <6d4237680912080622w6326f47cica95cd0cb2c41600@mail.gmail.com> <939dd5750912142324q1a71bbf0ybe64e6a66d9055e3@mail.gmail.com> <4B286AEB.7040400@fedoraproject.org> <4B28CDD8.4010308@redhat.com> Message-ID: <939dd5750912160722i42c34330mb944c770fd384b54@mail.gmail.com> Hi Michael, On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 7:08 AM, Michael Tiemann wrote: > M?ir?n Duffy wrote: >> >> Hi Jon, >> >> William Jon McCann wrote: >>> >>> I think we'd be a little put off if mailing lists, wikis, bugs, or IRC >>> conversations were conducted in many languages at the same time. ?For >>> these we've adopted a lingua franca. ?I propose we do the same for the >>> "default" Fedora Planet feed. >> >> Many multilingual posters post both in their native tongue and also >> provide an English translation on the bottom. What do you think about those >> posts and their appropriateness for the main planet feed? > > I think they rock! ?I think they shout from the rooftops that this is an > international community, and an inclusive one, too. I haven't seen what Mo had in mind so I'm going to comment on how much it may rock. It may :) But I think there is a subtle and important difference between being international and being multilingual. We are indeed both. There are various ways of demonstrating that. However, I don't think that the best way to demonstrate that we are international or global is to demonstrate that we are multilingual. A community shares a language in order to communicate. That is pretty much the precondition for community. Have to agree on terms. As people living in the US know, being multilingual doesn't mean that you are international. I grew up listening to both English and French (though they didn't bother to teach it to me - my family used French when they didn't want me to know what they were talking about). But, my family isn't international. It is pretty amazing that we can have a community as diverse as Fedora. We've all come here to share, to work, to learn. In order to do that we need to agree on the terms of the language. And not just negotiate between the parties engaging in the conversation because in open source the entire world takes part, even if sometimes only as an observer. Anything else is very much not inclusive. We can all have our own languages but when we come to the town square, village center, meeting place, in order to trade, learn, complain, motivate, etc, we should have one conversation. Thanks, Jon PS. We should totally do that Fedora map. It would rock too! From jkeating at redhat.com Wed Dec 16 17:37:56 2009 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 09:37:56 -0800 Subject: Update/install experience In-Reply-To: <20091216150020.GH24973@victoria.internal.frields.org> References: <20091214161600.GH3141@victoria.internal.frields.org> <20091214115042.4c00739b@ohm.scrye.com> <1260893193.2390.17.camel@metroid> <20091215164838.62469dec@ohm.scrye.com> <20091216150020.GH24973@victoria.internal.frields.org> Message-ID: <1260985076.21725.86.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2009-12-16 at 10:00 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote: > I tend to think that Rawhide itself could use some rethinking -- while > keeping it open (up to some point) for radical changes, making those > changes in some unit fashion that would ensure someone could actually > install and use the system daily to a reasonable degree. It would be > ludicrous to say "No bugs allowed in Rawhide," but there's probably a > basic level of functionality we could ensure, so that it'd be more > usable for daily work and development by people who can still live > with more bugs than you'd expect in a stable release. For instance, > the system boots on certain definite sets of hardware and a VM, and > lets you login, start a web browser, and visit pre-defined web pages. This is what AutoQA aims to accomplish at the per-build testing level. We can delay builds from being tagged into rawhide if they fail some level of automated testing. -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kevin at tummy.com Wed Dec 16 17:50:59 2009 From: kevin at tummy.com (Kevin Fenzi) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 10:50:59 -0700 Subject: Update/install experience In-Reply-To: <20091216150020.GH24973@victoria.internal.frields.org> References: <20091214161600.GH3141@victoria.internal.frields.org> <20091214115042.4c00739b@ohm.scrye.com> <1260893193.2390.17.camel@metroid> <20091215164838.62469dec@ohm.scrye.com> <20091216150020.GH24973@victoria.internal.frields.org> Message-ID: <20091216105059.587d2dbf@ohm.scrye.com> On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 10:00:20 -0500 "Paul W. Frields" wrote: ...snip... > I would think it's more of both -- the latter in the short term, being > able to effectively test something after release day; and in the > longer term, the ability to grow a QA community as a result of more > discrete tasks available that can be accurately described, documented, > and picked up by willing contributors. Right now, once a release is > out the door, there's no effective way to test the stable release > midstream, and have that be meaningful for other people. Thats not entirely true... we do have updates-testing and bodhi karma. I run with updates-testing enabled here, and when I had a broken initramfs recently I tracked it down to a dracut update. I then added my -1 karma and it was the last one needed for it to be unpushed from updates-testing. > Problems in the help channels sometimes come down to users having to > run 'rpm -q ' because when you ask "What Fedora are > you running?" the answer isn't all that helpful starting a few weeks > after release day. (Or maybe even the day after, for that matter.) > The first answer is, "Have you updated?" when there's no real answer > to whether that will actually help the situation, or might cause an > unrelated problem -- typically it's asked because the helper is using > latest updates, and this advice is the only way to make sure the user > is on the same set of software. I'm not saying that's not a sane > approach the way things are right now, and this is not a slam in any > way, shape, or form toward the intrepid folks who help users with > problems. They're doing the best they can based on the way our > releases and updates run right now. Yeah, but you will always have to ask that. I don't think having a '12.1' and '12.2' would help much... as people install stuff from testing, 3rd party repos, koji, or make their own. Just saying "I am updated to 12.2" won't really say they are on only the exact update set from 12.2. > But what if we did start offering a collection on a regular basis that > rolled in these updates? Reducing the multiplicity of updates and > resulting test matrices could make it possible for us to start > cataloging fixes and catching regressions before they impact users. > There'd be more certainty when helping a user as to what components > they actually had installed. Perhaps this wouldn't look like a > respin, so I'm purposely not calling it that. I don't know that it really helps out... > > How many problems or bugs are due to integration with other updates? > > In the cases of new package A using new package B, wouldn't you > > currently have to have both installed to test A anyhow? > > Which is, I think, one reason why we could, for the moment, step away > from thinking about packages and just consider components as the > original whiteboard suggested. ok. How do we define components then? "KDE" is a component? > Hopefully, having updates out on a more predictable, less frequent > basis would make it easier to break time off for security update > testing. It's not a matter of creating more time with a miracle, just > being able to better plan the teamwork. I can't speak for the QA > folks, but I would think that a constantly moving target (such as > daily updates to a stable release) makes it really difficult to > accurately plan in that way. ok, so perhaps it's this planning that I am wondering about, and should ask on the test list. So, not sure if this is just a rephrasing of this proposal, but: - All updates need to spend time in updates-testing unless they are security related. - All updates must have N karma to push to stable updates. Or some kind of checkoff for QA. - updates-testing pushes are daily. stable updates pushes are weekly. If thats the case, I think it would be a fine idea, I'm perhaps just getting confused on all the high level talk. Or is there more to it than this? kevin -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rc040203 at freenet.de Wed Dec 16 18:01:40 2009 From: rc040203 at freenet.de (Ralf Corsepius) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 19:01:40 +0100 Subject: Update/install experience In-Reply-To: <20091215164838.62469dec@ohm.scrye.com> References: <20091214161600.GH3141@victoria.internal.frields.org> <20091214115042.4c00739b@ohm.scrye.com> <1260893193.2390.17.camel@metroid> <20091215164838.62469dec@ohm.scrye.com> Message-ID: <4B292084.2080100@freenet.de> On 12/16/2009 12:48 AM, Kevin Fenzi wrote: > On Tue, 15 Dec 2009 11:06:33 -0500 > Will Woods wrote: > > ...snip... > >>> So, say we have 30updates/day currently. >> >> The average starts at around 25-30/day for the first 4 months and then >> declines to 20 or less over the life of the release. Check the Bodhi >> "Metrics" pages for some data. > > Yep. > >>> With this model they would pile up and then be tested in a unit? >>> Then once a week all 210 of them would be pushed out? >>> (The once a day blorp becomes a larger once a week blorp). >> >> Me, I'd prefer a once-a-month drop of changes, but yes. Same amount of >> changes, just batched into larger, periodic system updates. To me this sounds like bad idea - Primarily for 3 reasons: a) This contradicts Fedora's aims (fast pace) and is non-helpful to everybody. developers and package maintainers should be interested in seeing their bugs found and fixed ASAP, as well are users interested in seeing bugs they are fixed ASAP. This is want makes the key difference between Fedora and rawhide (volatile and unstable), RHEL (stagnation) and other distros with long bugfixing cycles. b) This strategy is non-helpful to users, because "small haps" of updates are "digestable", but "big chunks" of updates will "choke" them once a month. It will lead to users to opt to delay updating at times when it is "convenient" to them => they will expose themselves to broken packages and to security risk much longer It will contribute to maintainers not being able to fix bugs => It leads to users struggling with bugs == a regression of "user experience". c) This leads to a worser quality of Fedora, because unlike to what you believe, the mass of testing is performed by users, when using Fedora, not by RH's testing group nor in "*-testing". >> The destabilizing effect is much, much less than (e.g.) the daily >> changes we get during the freezes for Alpha/Beta. It's a manageable >> amount. IMO, this is a wild claim without any justification - I question it. It will lead to more "slience" and "less churn", but not to a better quality of the distro nor to a better "user experience". Ralf From jwboyer at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 18:16:20 2009 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 13:16:20 -0500 Subject: Update/install experience In-Reply-To: <20091216105059.587d2dbf@ohm.scrye.com> References: <20091214161600.GH3141@victoria.internal.frields.org> <20091214115042.4c00739b@ohm.scrye.com> <1260893193.2390.17.camel@metroid> <20091215164838.62469dec@ohm.scrye.com> <20091216150020.GH24973@victoria.internal.frields.org> <20091216105059.587d2dbf@ohm.scrye.com> Message-ID: <20091216181620.GK16448@hansolo.jdub.homelinux.org> On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 10:50:59AM -0700, Kevin Fenzi wrote: >ok, so perhaps it's this planning that I am wondering about, and should >ask on the test list. > >So, not sure if this is just a rephrasing of this proposal, but: > >- All updates need to spend time in updates-testing unless they are > security related. Sounds like exactly what EPEL does. I think enforcement is manual there still, and that isn't going to scale to Fedora. The change should be fairly minimal though. >- All updates must have N karma to push to stable updates. Or some kind > of checkoff for QA. Code changes already have to be made for the similar critpath QA/releng signoff. Hopefully this would just be another simple todo there. >- updates-testing pushes are daily. stable updates pushes are weekly. I could do this right now with no change to any code. It could also be done independently of the rest of the above. josh From stickster at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 20:45:14 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 15:45:14 -0500 Subject: Update/install experience In-Reply-To: <20091216105059.587d2dbf@ohm.scrye.com> References: <20091214161600.GH3141@victoria.internal.frields.org> <20091214115042.4c00739b@ohm.scrye.com> <1260893193.2390.17.camel@metroid> <20091215164838.62469dec@ohm.scrye.com> <20091216150020.GH24973@victoria.internal.frields.org> <20091216105059.587d2dbf@ohm.scrye.com> Message-ID: <20091216204514.GV24973@victoria.internal.frields.org> On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 10:50:59AM -0700, Kevin Fenzi wrote: > On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 10:00:20 -0500 > "Paul W. Frields" wrote: > > ...snip... > > > I would think it's more of both -- the latter in the short term, being > > able to effectively test something after release day; and in the > > longer term, the ability to grow a QA community as a result of more > > discrete tasks available that can be accurately described, documented, > > and picked up by willing contributors. Right now, once a release is > > out the door, there's no effective way to test the stable release > > midstream, and have that be meaningful for other people. > > Thats not entirely true... we do have updates-testing and bodhi karma. > I run with updates-testing enabled here, and when I had a broken > initramfs recently I tracked it down to a dracut update. I then added > my -1 karma and it was the last one needed for it to be unpushed from > updates-testing. What I mean is, the meaningfulness is decreased with a constantly moving package set. We absolutely do have resources for doing per package (or even per-bunch in a couple cases) testing, but it's not coordinated in an entire set from top to bottom. And there are reasons for that, which come from the way we currently aim to provide Rawhide and updates. > > Problems in the help channels sometimes come down to users having to > > run 'rpm -q ' because when you ask "What Fedora are > > you running?" the answer isn't all that helpful starting a few weeks > > after release day. (Or maybe even the day after, for that matter.) > > The first answer is, "Have you updated?" when there's no real answer > > to whether that will actually help the situation, or might cause an > > unrelated problem -- typically it's asked because the helper is using > > latest updates, and this advice is the only way to make sure the user > > is on the same set of software. I'm not saying that's not a sane > > approach the way things are right now, and this is not a slam in any > > way, shape, or form toward the intrepid folks who help users with > > problems. They're doing the best they can based on the way our > > releases and updates run right now. > > Yeah, but you will always have to ask that. > I don't think having a '12.1' and '12.2' would help much... as people > install stuff from testing, 3rd party repos, koji, or make their own. > Just saying "I am updated to 12.2" won't really say they are on only > the exact update set from 12.2. > > > But what if we did start offering a collection on a regular basis that > > rolled in these updates? Reducing the multiplicity of updates and > > resulting test matrices could make it possible for us to start > > cataloging fixes and catching regressions before they impact users. > > There'd be more certainty when helping a user as to what components > > they actually had installed. Perhaps this wouldn't look like a > > respin, so I'm purposely not calling it that. > > I don't know that it really helps out... > > > > How many problems or bugs are due to integration with other updates? > > > In the cases of new package A using new package B, wouldn't you > > > currently have to have both installed to test A anyhow? > > > > Which is, I think, one reason why we could, for the moment, step away > > from thinking about packages and just consider components as the > > original whiteboard suggested. > > ok. How do we define components then? "KDE" is a component? > > > Hopefully, having updates out on a more predictable, less frequent > > basis would make it easier to break time off for security update > > testing. It's not a matter of creating more time with a miracle, just > > being able to better plan the teamwork. I can't speak for the QA > > folks, but I would think that a constantly moving target (such as > > daily updates to a stable release) makes it really difficult to > > accurately plan in that way. > > ok, so perhaps it's this planning that I am wondering about, and should > ask on the test list. > > So, not sure if this is just a rephrasing of this proposal, but: > > - All updates need to spend time in updates-testing unless they are > security related. > > - All updates must have N karma to push to stable updates. Or some kind > of checkoff for QA. > > - updates-testing pushes are daily. stable updates pushes are weekly. > > If thats the case, I think it would be a fine idea, I'm perhaps just > getting confused on all the high level talk. Or is there more to it > than this? I think there is more to it -- again, I'd point back at the whiteboard[1] that covers more than just additional testing time and a more regulated pace of updates. I enjoyed reading this whiteboard and hearing the presentation at FUDCon because it jibed with my desire for Fedora to deliver a superior experience to anyone using it, including both our core contributors and also people who are potential contributors. After all, we have a lot more in common than not. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From mmcgrath at redhat.com Wed Dec 16 21:14:58 2009 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 15:14:58 -0600 (CST) Subject: Update/install experience In-Reply-To: <20091216181620.GK16448@hansolo.jdub.homelinux.org> References: <20091214161600.GH3141@victoria.internal.frields.org> <20091214115042.4c00739b@ohm.scrye.com> <1260893193.2390.17.camel@metroid> <20091215164838.62469dec@ohm.scrye.com> <20091216150020.GH24973@victoria.internal.frields.org> <20091216105059.587d2dbf@ohm.scrye.com> <20091216181620.GK16448@hansolo.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Dec 2009, Josh Boyer wrote: > On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 10:50:59AM -0700, Kevin Fenzi wrote: > >ok, so perhaps it's this planning that I am wondering about, and should > >ask on the test list. > > > >So, not sure if this is just a rephrasing of this proposal, but: > > > >- All updates need to spend time in updates-testing unless they are > > security related. > > Sounds like exactly what EPEL does. I think enforcement is manual > there still, and that isn't going to scale to Fedora. The change > should be fairly minimal though. > Dennis can speak to this better then I can but as I understand it several people try to go around the policies and go straight to stable immediately, even after it's been explained to them. Bodhi itself doesn't quite have that workflow built into it so I think at times dennis and the packager have gotten into a "It's stable" "It's testing" "it's stable" fight. -Mike From stickster at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 00:50:45 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul Frields) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 19:50:45 -0500 Subject: Update/install experience In-Reply-To: References: <20091214161600.GH3141@victoria.internal.frields.org> <20091214115042.4c00739b@ohm.scrye.com> <1260893193.2390.17.camel@metroid> <20091215164838.62469dec@ohm.scrye.com> <20091216150020.GH24973@victoria.internal.frields.org> <20091216105059.587d2dbf@ohm.scrye.com> <20091216181620.GK16448@hansolo.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 4:14 PM, Mike McGrath wrote: > > On Wed, 16 Dec 2009, Josh Boyer wrote: > >> On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 10:50:59AM -0700, Kevin Fenzi wrote: >> >ok, so perhaps it's this planning that I am wondering about, and should >> >ask on the test list. >> > >> >So, not sure if this is just a rephrasing of this proposal, but: >> > >> >- All updates need to spend time in updates-testing unless they are >> > ?security related. >> >> Sounds like exactly what EPEL does. ?I think enforcement is manual >> there still, and that isn't going to scale to Fedora. ?The change >> should be fairly minimal though. >> > > Dennis can speak to this better then I can but as I understand it several > people try to go around the policies and go straight to stable > immediately, even after it's been explained to them. ?Bodhi itself doesn't > quite have that workflow built into it so I think at times dennis and the > packager have gotten into a "It's stable" "It's testing" "it's stable" > fight. I actually did this once myself, inadvertently, because I didn't understand the workflow (it was a new package). I guess technically it wasn't a fight but more like a tug of war you don't realize you're in at first. :-) But I think the discussion is getting away from the topic a bit. Paul From mmcgrath at redhat.com Thu Dec 17 01:40:58 2009 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 19:40:58 -0600 (CST) Subject: Update/install experience In-Reply-To: References: <20091214161600.GH3141@victoria.internal.frields.org> <20091214115042.4c00739b@ohm.scrye.com> <1260893193.2390.17.camel@metroid> <20091215164838.62469dec@ohm.scrye.com> <20091216150020.GH24973@victoria.internal.frields.org> <20091216105059.587d2dbf@ohm.scrye.com> <20091216181620.GK16448@hansolo.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Dec 2009, Paul Frields wrote: > On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 4:14 PM, Mike McGrath wrote: > > > > On Wed, 16 Dec 2009, Josh Boyer wrote: > > > >> On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 10:50:59AM -0700, Kevin Fenzi wrote: > >> >ok, so perhaps it's this planning that I am wondering about, and should > >> >ask on the test list. > >> > > >> >So, not sure if this is just a rephrasing of this proposal, but: > >> > > >> >- All updates need to spend time in updates-testing unless they are > >> > ?security related. > >> > >> Sounds like exactly what EPEL does. ?I think enforcement is manual > >> there still, and that isn't going to scale to Fedora. ?The change > >> should be fairly minimal though. > >> > > > > Dennis can speak to this better then I can but as I understand it several > > people try to go around the policies and go straight to stable > > immediately, even after it's been explained to them. ?Bodhi itself doesn't > > quite have that workflow built into it so I think at times dennis and the > > packager have gotten into a "It's stable" "It's testing" "it's stable" > > fight. > > I actually did this once myself, inadvertently, because I didn't > understand the workflow (it was a new package). I guess technically it > wasn't a fight but more like a tug of war you don't realize you're in > at first. :-) But I think the discussion is getting away from the > topic a bit. > I agree but it does get to kind of a core of the problem, that's forming a message about best practices around updates. I think in many ways that starts at the packager and providing a proper framework for updates (I'm thinking a level above bodhi where bodhi is the implementation layer of that framework), then providing proper incentive to follow that framework. That last one is especially tricky because the more rules we have and the more complex we are about updates, the less volunteers will be apt to follow the guidelines. Though putting some sort of guardian in the middle might be welcome as it'd allow the packagers to not have to directly follow the process. More "here's my update" kind of thing, then let QA, releng, whoever else take it from there. -Mike From mel at redhat.com Thu Dec 17 02:09:55 2009 From: mel at redhat.com (Mel Chua) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 21:09:55 -0500 Subject: FUDCon Toronto: please take the 5-minute feedback survey Message-ID: <4B2992F3.5080205@redhat.com> FUDCon Toronto (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FUDCon:Toronto_2009) is over - our largest FUDCon yet! We'd love to get your thoughts on how it went, so: * If you attended FUDCon Toronto, either in-person or remotely via Fedora Live, please take this survey and tell us what you thought. * If you didn't attend FUDCon Toronto but wanted to, please take this survey and tell us how we can help you get to the next one. * If you didn't want to go to FUDCon Toronto, please take this survey and tell us why - it's anonymous. ;-) The survey is available at http://fedoraproject.limequery.org/index.php?sid=34266&lang=en There are 29 questions, most of the yes/no variety; the survey takes less than 5 minutes to complete (I just timed myself). A special thanks to Robyn Bergeron, Yaakov Nemoy, and the rest of the Fedora Marketing team for designing the survey so it *can* be completed in less than 5 minutes! Questions are previewable at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FUDCon_survey. The survey will be active from 12/16/2009 through 1/8/2010, and we'll be analyzing and announcing the results shortly after it closes. If you're curious about the process, interested in helping us analyze the results, or have any questions in general, join the conversation on the Fedora Marketing mailing list (https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list). --Mel From baransels at fedoraproject.org Thu Dec 17 08:24:45 2009 From: baransels at fedoraproject.org (Baransel S. - Fedora) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 10:24:45 +0200 Subject: TLA? In-Reply-To: References: <20091202015043.GB19612@victoria.internal.frields.org> Message-ID: Hello, There will be Fedora community news in a native language and a public forum. A mockup of how the site will look is attached. Best Regards On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 3:58 PM, Paul Frields wrote: > Hi Baransel, the Board asked for a brief summary of what you're > planning to offer at the site. Will it be a blog? Public forums? > Something else? What will a user see when he or she visits the front > page? The Board was not opposed to offering a TLA, and simply wants > to know what the agreement will cover. > > Paul > > _______________________________________________ > fedora-advisory-board mailing list > fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: mockup.png Type: image/png Size: 115667 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nigjones at redhat.com Thu Dec 17 13:34:02 2009 From: nigjones at redhat.com (Nigel Jones) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 08:34:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: Fedora Board December 2009 Results In-Reply-To: <264925074.9351261056830345.JavaMail.root@zmail07.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com> Message-ID: <260973641.9441261056842767.JavaMail.root@zmail07.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com> Hi f-a-b subscribers, the moment you have been waiting for. The votes have been tallied and I can now announce the 2 successful candidates for the Fedora Board. We had a total of 225 votes for this election, meaning that each candidate could obtain up to a maximum of 900 votes. The results are as follows: 1. Matt Domsch 643 2. Chris Tyler 475 *** Cut Off *** 3. Coin Walters 451 4. Steven M. Parrish 412 So please join me in congratulating Matt and Chris on their return to the Fedora Board. Please find the full GPG-signed release announcement attached. Regards, Nigel Jones Fedora Election Administrator -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: fedoraboardf13results.txt.asc URL: From stickster at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 15:09:51 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 10:09:51 -0500 Subject: Election results for FAmSCo, FESCo coming shortly Message-ID: <20091217150951.GI5536@victoria.internal.frields.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Our election coordinator, Nigel Jones, was too swamped today to process all of the election results, but will be doing so later today (UTC time). Thanks for your patience, and thanks to Nigel for all his work coordinating the voting system and results. - -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFLKkm/rNvJN70RNxcRAjY9AKCoRs/EplwBz3kXCbYJlW9heW19TQCgtHmx wmnUs+PWljamrXBKBi1jq/c= =8gZv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From poelstra at redhat.com Thu Dec 17 15:25:31 2009 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 07:25:31 -0800 Subject: Fedora Board December 2009 Results In-Reply-To: <260973641.9441261056842767.JavaMail.root@zmail07.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com> References: <260973641.9441261056842767.JavaMail.root@zmail07.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com> Message-ID: <4B2A4D6B.10009@redhat.com> Nigel Jones said the following on 12/17/2009 05:34 AM Pacific Time: > Hi f-a-b subscribers, the moment you have been waiting for. > > The votes have been tallied and I can now announce the 2 successful candidates for the Fedora Board. > > We had a total of 225 votes for this election, meaning that each candidate could obtain up to a maximum of 900 votes. > > The results are as follows: > > 1. Matt Domsch 643 > 2. Chris Tyler 475 > > *** Cut Off *** > > 3. Coin Walters 451 > 4. Steven M. Parrish 412 > > > So please join me in congratulating Matt and Chris on their return to the Fedora Board. > > Please find the full GPG-signed release announcement attached. > > Regards, > > Nigel Jones > Fedora Election Administrator Thanks Nigel. To get a true measure of the level of "voter turn out" can you also tell us the total number of people that were eligible to vote in this election? John From stickster at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 16:09:00 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 11:09:00 -0500 Subject: Fedora Board December 2009 Results In-Reply-To: <4B2A4D6B.10009@redhat.com> References: <260973641.9441261056842767.JavaMail.root@zmail07.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com> <4B2A4D6B.10009@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20091217160900.GM5536@victoria.internal.frields.org> On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 07:25:31AM -0800, John Poelstra wrote: > Nigel Jones said the following on 12/17/2009 05:34 AM Pacific Time: > >Hi f-a-b subscribers, the moment you have been waiting for. > > > >The votes have been tallied and I can now announce the 2 successful > >candidates for the Fedora Board. > > > >We had a total of 225 votes for this election, meaning that each > >candidate could obtain up to a maximum of 900 votes. > > > >The results are as follows: > > > >1. Matt Domsch 643 > >2. Chris Tyler 475 > > > >*** Cut Off *** > > > >3. Coin Walters 451 > >4. Steven M. Parrish 412 > > > > > >So please join me in congratulating Matt and Chris on their return > >to the Fedora Board. > > > >Please find the full GPG-signed release announcement attached. > > > >Regards, > > > >Nigel Jones > >Fedora Election Administrator > > Thanks Nigel. > > To get a true measure of the level of "voter turn out" can you also > tell us the total number of people that were eligible to vote in > this election? Hi John, since Nigel is asleep I used fedora-python and found out the number of people in cla_done currently: 18,252 Also, here are ballot numbers for the last four Board elections: June 2008: 250 December 2008: 227 June 2009: 297 December 2009: 225 The ping-ponging of ballot numbers is interesting. The lower December numbers might lead one to conclude we need better publicity around elections in December. IIRC, Nigel has told us in the past the majority of ballots come in early, which would not support just having longer elections then. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From inode0 at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 16:16:24 2009 From: inode0 at gmail.com (inode0) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 10:16:24 -0600 Subject: Fedora Board December 2009 Results In-Reply-To: <4B2A4D6B.10009@redhat.com> References: <260973641.9441261056842767.JavaMail.root@zmail07.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com> <4B2A4D6B.10009@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 9:25 AM, John Poelstra wrote: > To get a true measure of the level of "voter turn out" can you also tell us > the total number of people that were eligible to vote in this election? While this is always interesting to see I've been struggling for the past couple of years with the question of what we want to conclude from such a measure? It always seems to grate on people that far more contributors vote for the codename than vote for anything else, but should it bother us? There seem to be two main reasons people share with me about why they don't vote. One is that they are interested in contributing something in particular to the project so they do that but they aren't interested in project governance so they don't participate in that part of the project (just as they don't participate in other project areas that don't interest them). The other and by far the most common reason I've heard is that the contributor doesn't know anything about the candidates beyond perhaps name recognition and for that reason they just don't feel competent to make an intelligent vote. We have been trying things to address the second item above by adding town halls and questionnaires during the election to give contributors a chance to meet the candidates and get to know them a bit more personally. We get almost universal positive feedback from both of these initiatives, but the numbers of people who seem to be affected by them seems quite small. There has been some negative feedback about town halls from candidates who feel it is altering the nature of Fedora elections in a bad way. I don't agree with that criticism at present but I do admit to seeing it as a danger. [I will say that one election this year seemed to have some unpleasantness attached to it that I've not seen before and that I hope to not see again, to what extent the process had anything to do with that I'm not sure.] While a meritocracy and an open democratic election process don't need to be at odds, I do think some of our efforts to increase voter turn out, adding things that seem a bit like debates to the process for one example, do tilt the expectations in a way that might be at odds with a meritocracy. Having too much focus on what the voter turn out actually was is another thing that I think tilts us away from being governed by a meritocracy. So the natural evolution of the election process seems to me to result in an open election with a small number of heavily involved contributors voting (making the decisions). If we want more voter participation the best way to preserve the underlying meritocracy is to get more heavily involved contributors. That number is always going to be rather small when compared to the number of people we allow to vote. John From jwboyer at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 16:45:06 2009 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 11:45:06 -0500 Subject: Fedora Board December 2009 Results In-Reply-To: References: <260973641.9441261056842767.JavaMail.root@zmail07.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com> <4B2A4D6B.10009@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20091217164506.GM16448@hansolo.jdub.homelinux.org> On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 10:16:24AM -0600, inode0 wrote: >So the natural evolution of the election process seems to me to result >in an open election with a small number of heavily involved >contributors voting (making the decisions). If we want more voter >participation the best way to preserve the underlying meritocracy is >to get more heavily involved contributors. That number is always going >to be rather small when compared to the number of people we allow to >vote. I think that's true. Some people just like statistics though :). josh From stickster at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 16:48:01 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 11:48:01 -0500 Subject: Fedora Board December 2009 Results In-Reply-To: <260973641.9441261056842767.JavaMail.root@zmail07.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com> References: <264925074.9351261056830345.JavaMail.root@zmail07.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com> <260973641.9441261056842767.JavaMail.root@zmail07.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20091217164801.GA13311@victoria.internal.frields.org> On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 08:34:02AM -0500, Nigel Jones wrote: > Hi f-a-b subscribers, the moment you have been waiting for. > > The votes have been tallied and I can now announce the 2 successful > candidates for the Fedora Board. > > We had a total of 225 votes for this election, meaning that each > candidate could obtain up to a maximum of 900 votes. > > The results are as follows: > > 1. Matt Domsch 643 > 2. Chris Tyler 475 > > *** Cut Off *** > > 3. Coin Walters 451 > 4. Steven M. Parrish 412 > > > So please join me in congratulating Matt and Chris on their return > to the Fedora Board. > > Please find the full GPG-signed release announcement attached. > > Regards, > > Nigel Jones > Fedora Election Administrator The following schedule will apply to the seating of the new Board: Thu Dec 17 -- Regular meeting Fri Dec 18 -- OOA this date, announce final appointment to Board Thu Dec 24 -- No meeting, holiday break Thu Dec 31 -- No meeting, holiday break Thu Jan 07 -- Handoff meeting, any non-returning Board members invited to attend as their last meeting There are a few individuals under consideration for the final appointed Board seat. This appointment is made after elections are completed to balance the Board's composition, and represent the entire Fedora community as much as possible. Although this appointment is ultimately up to the Fedora Project Leader to decide, generally the FPL discusses the appointments with others to achieve a consensus. I expect to make this final appointment within the next few days. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From frankly3d at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 17:05:01 2009 From: frankly3d at gmail.com (Frank Murphy (Frankly3D)) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 17:05:01 +0000 Subject: Blue Lightscribe Media Message-ID: <4B2A64BD.60409@gmail.com> Before I make a faux-pas. Is there any rules to me running off any copies of Fedora media, I may require for distribution as Freemedia and or within college. Using Blue discs from: http://www.studiosolutions.ie/prodList.asp?idCategory=321 (I have no association with above site) Am not certain above is the same as Fedora Blue. -- Regards, Frank Murphy UTF_8 Encoded. From tcallawa at redhat.com Thu Dec 17 17:18:37 2009 From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom "spot" Callaway) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 12:18:37 -0500 Subject: Blue Lightscribe Media In-Reply-To: <4B2A64BD.60409@gmail.com> References: <4B2A64BD.60409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B2A67ED.4060300@redhat.com> On 12/17/2009 12:05 PM, Frank Murphy (Frankly3D) wrote: > Before I make a faux-pas. > > Is there any rules to me running off any copies of Fedora media, > I may require for distribution as Freemedia and or within college. > Using Blue discs from: > http://www.studiosolutions.ie/prodList.asp?idCategory=321 > (I have no association with above site) > > Am not certain above is the same as Fedora Blue. See: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal:Trademark_guidelines#Copies_of_unmodified_Fedora_media ~spot From bbbush.yuan at gmail.com Fri Dec 18 00:25:23 2009 From: bbbush.yuan at gmail.com (Yuan Yijun) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 08:25:23 +0800 Subject: Fedora Board December 2009 Results In-Reply-To: References: <260973641.9441261056842767.JavaMail.root@zmail07.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com> <4B2A4D6B.10009@redhat.com> Message-ID: <76e72f800912171625o1a5d3b3fv439aabe634f6afb8@mail.gmail.com> 2009/12/18 inode0 : > areas that don't interest them). The other and by far the most common > reason I've heard is that the contributor doesn't know anything about > the candidates beyond perhaps name recognition and for that reason > they just don't feel competent to make an intelligent vote. > Me falls in this category. If I had enough time I'd have read all the questions and town hall logs. One reason is I cannot read blobs of English very fast. However email is fine, maybe I should paste those text into email and then read them? -- bbbush ^_^ From stickster at gmail.com Fri Dec 18 17:27:40 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 12:27:40 -0500 Subject: Election results for FAmSCo, FESCo coming shortly In-Reply-To: <20091217150951.GI5536@victoria.internal.frields.org> References: <20091217150951.GI5536@victoria.internal.frields.org> Message-ID: <20091218172740.GG20625@victoria.internal.frields.org> On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 10:09:51AM -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote: > Our election coordinator, Nigel Jones, was too swamped today to > process all of the election results, but will be doing so later today > (UTC time). Thanks for your patience, and thanks to Nigel for all his > work coordinating the voting system and results. Results have been posted: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2009-December/msg00849.html https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-ambassadors-list/2009-December/msg00234.html Thank you to Nigel Jones for his work on elections, and also to our infrastructure team not only for minimizing the impact of our infrastructure move on elections, but also for helping with results verification. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From stickster at gmail.com Fri Dec 18 22:07:39 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 17:07:39 -0500 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2009-12-17 UTC 1700 Message-ID: <20091218220739.GQ20625@victoria.internal.frields.org> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meeting:Board_meeting_2009-12-17 == Roll Call == * '''Present:''' Paul Frields, Christopher Aillon, Josh Boyer, Dimitris Glezos, Bill Nottingham, John Poelstra, Jon McCann, Tom "spot" Callaway, Matt Domsch, Mike McGrath, Dennis Gilmore == Last meeting == https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meeting:Board_meeting_2009-12-10 == Updates/Installs presentation == * William Jon McCann -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JonMccann * Co-presenter: Christopher Aillon ** pointed back to whiteboard link: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Desktop/Whiteboards/UpdateExperience with new added "Impact" section with information from stakeholders ** document doesn't present implementation, but records opinions garnered from current contributors and stakeholders * General Board consensus is that we do need to establish criteria for updates, and empower FESCo to enforce them * Lots of spirited discussion around various details of the proposal, with conversation that covered a lot of different issues but the Board is not ready to issue hard guidance yet ** Unclear to what extent current pending changes (NFR, AutoQA) will impact any Fedora user's update experience, or how these changes are currently incorporated in the whiteboard ** The whiteboard correctly identifies several problems but it's not clear that it completely lists root causes ACTION: # Enumerate the problems that need to be solved -- as explicitly as possible, no focus on solutions #* Suggested method, repetitive "why" to make sure we're identifying the right root causes #* On list, get owners for each problem from the Board side # Then solicit ideas for proposed solutions == Next meeting == * Thu Jan 07 2009 - 1700 UTC/12:00pm US Eastern (public IRC) -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From skvidal at fedoraproject.org Fri Dec 18 22:17:51 2009 From: skvidal at fedoraproject.org (Seth Vidal) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 17:17:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2009-12-17 UTC 1700 In-Reply-To: <20091218220739.GQ20625@victoria.internal.frields.org> References: <20091218220739.GQ20625@victoria.internal.frields.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Dec 2009, Paul W. Frields wrote: > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meeting:Board_meeting_2009-12-17 > > == Roll Call == > * '''Present:''' Paul Frields, Christopher Aillon, Josh Boyer, Dimitris Glezos, Bill Nottingham, John Poelstra, Jon McCann, Tom "spot" Callaway, Matt Domsch, Mike McGrath, Dennis Gilmore > > == Last meeting == > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meeting:Board_meeting_2009-12-10 > > == Updates/Installs presentation == > * William Jon McCann -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JonMccann > * Co-presenter: Christopher Aillon > ** pointed back to whiteboard link: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Desktop/Whiteboards/UpdateExperience with new added "Impact" section with information from stakeholders > ** document doesn't present implementation, but records opinions garnered from current contributors and stakeholders > * General Board consensus is that we do need to establish criteria for updates, and empower FESCo to enforce them > * Lots of spirited discussion around various details of the proposal, with conversation that covered a lot of different issues but the Board is not ready to issue hard guidance yet > ** Unclear to what extent current pending changes (NFR, AutoQA) will impact any Fedora user's update experience, or how these changes are currently incorporated in the whiteboard > ** The whiteboard correctly identifies several problems but it's not clear that it completely lists root causes Why was the above discussion brought to the board anyone? Instead of fesco? -sv From stickster at gmail.com Fri Dec 18 22:26:44 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2009 17:26:44 -0500 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2009-12-17 UTC 1700 In-Reply-To: References: <20091218220739.GQ20625@victoria.internal.frields.org> Message-ID: <20091218222644.GS20625@victoria.internal.frields.org> On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 05:17:51PM -0500, Seth Vidal wrote: > > > On Fri, 18 Dec 2009, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > >https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meeting:Board_meeting_2009-12-17 > > > >== Roll Call == > >* '''Present:''' Paul Frields, Christopher Aillon, Josh Boyer, Dimitris Glezos, Bill Nottingham, John Poelstra, Jon McCann, Tom "spot" Callaway, Matt Domsch, Mike McGrath, Dennis Gilmore > > > >== Last meeting == > > > >https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meeting:Board_meeting_2009-12-10 > > > >== Updates/Installs presentation == > >* William Jon McCann -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JonMccann > >* Co-presenter: Christopher Aillon > >** pointed back to whiteboard link: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Desktop/Whiteboards/UpdateExperience with new added "Impact" section with information from stakeholders > >** document doesn't present implementation, but records opinions garnered from current contributors and stakeholders > >* General Board consensus is that we do need to establish criteria for updates, and empower FESCo to enforce them > >* Lots of spirited discussion around various details of the proposal, with conversation that covered a lot of different issues but the Board is not ready to issue hard guidance yet > >** Unclear to what extent current pending changes (NFR, AutoQA) will impact any Fedora user's update experience, or how these changes are currently incorporated in the whiteboard > >** The whiteboard correctly identifies several problems but it's not clear that it completely lists root causes > > Why was the above discussion brought to the board anyone? Instead of > fesco? I invited Jon to talk about this at the meeting, because what he and Board member Christopher Aillon presented at FUDCon was fairly broad and affects quite a lot of Fedora. Some of the symptoms set out in the whiteboard have significant effects on contribution to Fedora overall, and that's something in which the Board is keenly interested by definition. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From william.jon.mccann at gmail.com Sat Dec 19 16:31:05 2009 From: william.jon.mccann at gmail.com (William Jon McCann) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 11:31:05 -0500 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2009-12-17 UTC 1700 In-Reply-To: <20091218220739.GQ20625@victoria.internal.frields.org> References: <20091218220739.GQ20625@victoria.internal.frields.org> Message-ID: <939dd5750912190831n4436e365y382db6b099be1e12@mail.gmail.com> Hey Paul, On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 5:07 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meeting:Board_meeting_2009-12-17 > > == Roll Call == > * '''Present:''' Paul Frields, Christopher Aillon, Josh Boyer, Dimitris Glezos, Bill Nottingham, John Poelstra, Jon McCann, Tom "spot" Callaway, Matt Domsch, Mike McGrath, Dennis Gilmore > > == Last meeting == > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meeting:Board_meeting_2009-12-10 > > == Updates/Installs presentation == > * William Jon McCann -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JonMccann > * Co-presenter: Christopher Aillon > ** pointed back to whiteboard link: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Desktop/Whiteboards/UpdateExperience with new added "Impact" section with information from stakeholders > ** document doesn't present implementation, but records opinions garnered from current contributors and stakeholders > * General Board consensus is that we do need to establish criteria for updates, and empower FESCo to enforce them > * Lots of spirited discussion around various details of the proposal, with conversation that covered a lot of different issues but the Board is not ready to issue hard guidance yet > ** Unclear to what extent current pending changes (NFR, AutoQA) will impact any Fedora user's update experience, or how these changes are currently incorporated in the whiteboard > ** The whiteboard correctly identifies several problems but it's not clear that it completely lists root causes > ACTION: > # Enumerate the problems that need to be solved -- as explicitly as possible, no focus on solutions > #* Suggested method, repetitive "why" to make sure we're identifying the right root causes > #* On list, get owners for each problem from the Board side > # Then solicit ideas for proposed solutions > > == Next meeting == > * Thu Jan 07 2009 - 1700 UTC/12:00pm US Eastern (public IRC) OK, so who is going to be responsible for following through on these actions? There are a few things I'd really like to get some clarification on as well. In the meeting it was claimed that focusing on the user experience was a "red herring." It was also stated that the Fedora project thinks a broken rawhide is not only a necessity due to lack of QA resources but also desirable because it follows from our goals of being first and fast. It was also stated that since we have a community to test rawhide and give us feedback when it is broken we don't have to test it beforehand. It was also stated that we've moved to a system where we no longer compose rawhide but push out new builds as they arrive and that should be what people are testing. There was also some disagreement between board members about what the role of the board even is. Some stated that they shouldn't be discussing implementation details and others said they shouldn't be setting goals without first determining what the implementation details are. Huh? Also, do you have an audio copy or transcript of the meeting? I think that might be of interest to some people. Anyway, I very much appreciate the invitation to address the board. I feel like I didn't do a very good job of conveying the desires of all the stateholders with whom I discussed these ideas. We had a talk and discussion group at FUDCon and I think there was overwhelming support for the ideas in the whiteboard (except for the one person who refused to discuss the issue when I asked to talk about it). I think I let them all down by not explaining how setting these goals will be extremely beneficial for Fedora. Thanks, Jon From mmcgrath at redhat.com Sat Dec 19 18:21:56 2009 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 12:21:56 -0600 (CST) Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2009-12-17 UTC 1700 In-Reply-To: <939dd5750912190831n4436e365y382db6b099be1e12@mail.gmail.com> References: <20091218220739.GQ20625@victoria.internal.frields.org> <939dd5750912190831n4436e365y382db6b099be1e12@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Dec 2009, William Jon McCann wrote: > Hey Paul, > > On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 5:07 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meeting:Board_meeting_2009-12-17 > > > > == Roll Call == > > * '''Present:''' Paul Frields, Christopher Aillon, Josh Boyer, Dimitris Glezos, Bill Nottingham, John Poelstra, Jon McCann, Tom "spot" Callaway, Matt Domsch, Mike McGrath, Dennis Gilmore > > > > == Last meeting == > > > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meeting:Board_meeting_2009-12-10 > > > > == Updates/Installs presentation == > > * William Jon McCann -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JonMccann > > * Co-presenter: Christopher Aillon > > ** pointed back to whiteboard link: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Desktop/Whiteboards/UpdateExperience with new added "Impact" section with information from stakeholders > > ** document doesn't present implementation, but records opinions garnered from current contributors and stakeholders > > * General Board consensus is that we do need to establish criteria for updates, and empower FESCo to enforce them > > * Lots of spirited discussion around various details of the proposal, with conversation that covered a lot of different issues but the Board is not ready to issue hard guidance yet > > ** Unclear to what extent current pending changes (NFR, AutoQA) will impact any Fedora user's update experience, or how these changes are currently incorporated in the whiteboard > > ** The whiteboard correctly identifies several problems but it's not clear that it completely lists root causes > > ACTION: > > # Enumerate the problems that need to be solved -- as explicitly as possible, no focus on solutions > > #* Suggested method, repetitive "why" to make sure we're identifying the right root causes > > #* On list, get owners for each problem from the Board side > > # Then solicit ideas for proposed solutions > > > > == Next meeting == > > * Thu Jan 07 2009 - 1700 UTC/12:00pm US Eastern (public IRC) > > OK, so who is going to be responsible for following through on these actions? > > There are a few things I'd really like to get some clarification on as > well. In the meeting it was claimed that focusing on the user > experience was a "red herring." It was also stated that the Fedora > project thinks a broken rawhide is not only a necessity due to lack of > QA resources but also desirable because it follows from our goals of > being first and fast. It was also stated that since we have a > community to test rawhide and give us feedback when it is broken we > don't have to test it beforehand. It was also stated that we've moved > to a system where we no longer compose rawhide but push out new builds > as they arrive and that should be what people are testing. There was > also some disagreement between board members about what the role of > the board even is. I'm not even sure where to start with the above. Saying stuff like "It was also stated that the Fedora project thinks a broken rawhide..." I'm not sure the Fedora Project itself has thoughts. > Some stated that they shouldn't be discussing > implementation details and others said they shouldn't be setting goals > without first determining what the implementation details are. Huh? > Did you think everyone on the board has the same thoughts about everything? I think you were met with such resistance because it was such a large proposal and you kept saying things like "Everyone I talked to agreed with X or Y". It really felt like your goal in that meeting was to try to get the Boards rubber stamp on that whiteboard proposal so you could take it to FESCo and meet any resistance from them with "The board said it was ok". The whiteboard: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Desktop/Whiteboards/UpdateExperience is almost entirely FESCo or other team based. The desktop team doesn't manage QA, Marketing, documentation or the releng teams. If you want QA or marketing to do those things, why not take them directly to those teams? You're asking us who's going to follow up on those actions? It's your proposal, I'd assume if you're serious about it you would follow up. -Mike From william.jon.mccann at gmail.com Sat Dec 19 19:06:02 2009 From: william.jon.mccann at gmail.com (William Jon McCann) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 14:06:02 -0500 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2009-12-17 UTC 1700 In-Reply-To: References: <20091218220739.GQ20625@victoria.internal.frields.org> <939dd5750912190831n4436e365y382db6b099be1e12@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <939dd5750912191106x23be03f5t6884a6d26a01e1b2@mail.gmail.com> Hey Mike, On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 1:21 PM, Mike McGrath wrote: > On Sat, 19 Dec 2009, William Jon McCann wrote: > >> Hey Paul, >> >> On Fri, Dec 18, 2009 at 5:07 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: >> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meeting:Board_meeting_2009-12-17 >> > >> > == Roll Call == >> > * '''Present:''' Paul Frields, Christopher Aillon, Josh Boyer, Dimitris Glezos, Bill Nottingham, John Poelstra, Jon McCann, Tom "spot" Callaway, Matt Domsch, Mike McGrath, Dennis Gilmore >> > >> > == Last meeting == >> > >> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meeting:Board_meeting_2009-12-10 >> > >> > == Updates/Installs presentation == >> > * William Jon McCann -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JonMccann >> > * Co-presenter: Christopher Aillon >> > ** pointed back to whiteboard link: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Desktop/Whiteboards/UpdateExperience with new added "Impact" section with information from stakeholders >> > ** document doesn't present implementation, but records opinions garnered from current contributors and stakeholders >> > * General Board consensus is that we do need to establish criteria for updates, and empower FESCo to enforce them >> > * Lots of spirited discussion around various details of the proposal, with conversation that covered a lot of different issues but the Board is not ready to issue hard guidance yet >> > ** Unclear to what extent current pending changes (NFR, AutoQA) will impact any Fedora user's update experience, or how these changes are currently incorporated in the whiteboard >> > ** The whiteboard correctly identifies several problems but it's not clear that it completely lists root causes >> > ACTION: >> > # Enumerate the problems that need to be solved -- as explicitly as possible, no focus on solutions >> > #* Suggested method, repetitive "why" to make sure we're identifying the right root causes >> > #* On list, get owners for each problem from the Board side >> > # Then solicit ideas for proposed solutions >> > >> > == Next meeting == >> > * Thu Jan 07 2009 - 1700 UTC/12:00pm US Eastern (public IRC) >> >> OK, so who is going to be responsible for following through on these actions? >> >> There are a few things I'd really like to get some clarification on as >> well. ?In the meeting it was claimed that focusing on the user >> experience was a "red herring." ?It was also stated that the Fedora >> project thinks a broken rawhide is not only a necessity due to lack of >> QA resources but also desirable because it follows from our goals of >> being first and fast. ?It was also stated that since we have a >> community to test rawhide and give us feedback when it is broken we >> don't have to test it beforehand. ?It was also stated that we've moved >> to a system where we no longer compose rawhide but push out new builds >> as they arrive and that should be what people are testing. ?There was >> also some disagreement between board members about what the role of >> the board even is. > > I'm not even sure where to start with the above. ?Saying stuff like "It > was also stated that the Fedora project thinks a broken rawhide..." ?I'm > not sure the Fedora Project itself has thoughts. That was stated by a board member and no other board members seemed to take issue with it. >> ?Some stated that they shouldn't be discussing >> implementation details and others said they shouldn't be setting goals >> without first determining what the implementation details are. ?Huh? >> > > Did you think everyone on the board has the same thoughts about > everything? I really hope that you don't. :) When you and I talked about some of these issues at FUDCon I thought we were pretty much in agreement about a lot of things. In particular, hearing about your wife's difficulties with Fedora was really interesting (and a little embarassing). > I think you were met with such resistance because it was such a large > proposal and you kept saying things like "Everyone I talked to agreed with > X or Y". ?It really felt like your goal in that meeting was to try to get > the Boards rubber stamp on that whiteboard proposal so you could take it > to FESCo and meet any resistance from them with "The board said it was > ok". My goal was to have a discussion about goals and direction for the experience of updates in Fedora. I was invited to the meeting. I didn't ask to come before the group. I had similar goals at FUDCon and the reception the ideas got at FUDCon was markedly different from the reaction of the board. > The whiteboard: > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Desktop/Whiteboards/UpdateExperience > > is almost entirely FESCo or other team based. Exactly, the Chairman of board doesn't seem to agree with that. I don't really want to talk about implementation details so I'm not sure why I'd want to talk to FESCO. I'd much prefer to talk about experience design and understand more clearly what goals the board has for the project in this area. Sure I realize that to many people especially engineers who prefer to just get things done these are fairly abstract, visiony things. But they really do matter. I think these are things that the board could help us with. I'm not saying that the board is really prepared to be designing experiences or positioning us for growth and establishing these kind of goals on its own. However, I do hope that the board has a desire to work in partnership with the folks who think it is well past time we start taking the user experience more seriously. > The desktop team doesn't manage QA, Marketing, documentation or the releng > teams. ?If you want QA or marketing to do those things, why not take them > directly to those teams? ?You're asking us who's going to follow up on > those actions? ?It's your proposal, I'd assume if you're serious about it > you would follow up. I wasn't talking about my proposal. Paul posted action items from the meeting. I'm wondering who on the board is tasked with those. Thanks, Jon From mmcgrath at redhat.com Sat Dec 19 20:29:13 2009 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 14:29:13 -0600 (CST) Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2009-12-17 UTC 1700 In-Reply-To: <939dd5750912191106x23be03f5t6884a6d26a01e1b2@mail.gmail.com> References: <20091218220739.GQ20625@victoria.internal.frields.org> <939dd5750912190831n4436e365y382db6b099be1e12@mail.gmail.com> <939dd5750912191106x23be03f5t6884a6d26a01e1b2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Dec 2009, William Jon McCann wrote: > > The whiteboard: > > > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Desktop/Whiteboards/UpdateExperience > > > > is almost entirely FESCo or other team based. > > Exactly, the Chairman of board doesn't seem to agree with that. I Ok I've got to say this. Your deflection tactics have got to stop. You need to let people speak for themselves. When someone on the call disagreed with you yesterday about QA, you said "well will woods thinks it's a great idea". When I think something is for Fesco you say "Well the Chairman of the board doesn't seem to agree with that". It's not getting you anywhere and bad it's form. Besides, just because someone agrees with you (or me) doesn't make it so. If you're not alone on this, have them come and speak up and be willing to let them do that. Otherwise stick to what you think on your own. When the whiteboard was brought up to the FAB in October [1] it was met with complete silence. -Mike [1] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2009-October/msg00127.html From jwboyer at gmail.com Sat Dec 19 20:49:43 2009 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 15:49:43 -0500 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2009-12-17 UTC 1700 In-Reply-To: References: <20091218220739.GQ20625@victoria.internal.frields.org> <939dd5750912190831n4436e365y382db6b099be1e12@mail.gmail.com> <939dd5750912191106x23be03f5t6884a6d26a01e1b2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091219204943.GO16448@hansolo.jdub.homelinux.org> On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 02:29:13PM -0600, Mike McGrath wrote: >Otherwise stick to what you think on your own. When the whiteboard was >brought up to the FAB in October [1] it was met with complete silence. To be fair, it was buried in an abusurdly long thread which probably means it's visibility was limited. That's why I suggested we start a new thread on f-a-b (which Paul did) before discussing this at the Board level. (Which also got few comments, but was only done a few days before the Board meeting.) josh From william.jon.mccann at gmail.com Sat Dec 19 21:13:17 2009 From: william.jon.mccann at gmail.com (William Jon McCann) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 16:13:17 -0500 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2009-12-17 UTC 1700 In-Reply-To: References: <20091218220739.GQ20625@victoria.internal.frields.org> <939dd5750912190831n4436e365y382db6b099be1e12@mail.gmail.com> <939dd5750912191106x23be03f5t6884a6d26a01e1b2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <939dd5750912191313l7453821fm296383e4bb3e28c6@mail.gmail.com> Hey Mike, On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 3:29 PM, Mike McGrath wrote: > On Sat, 19 Dec 2009, William Jon McCann wrote: > >> > The whiteboard: >> > >> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Desktop/Whiteboards/UpdateExperience >> > >> > is almost entirely FESCo or other team based. >> >> Exactly, the Chairman of board doesn't seem to agree with that. ?I > > Ok I've got to say this. ?Your deflection tactics have got to stop. ?You > need to let people speak for themselves. ?When someone on the call > disagreed with you yesterday about QA, you said "well will woods thinks > it's a great idea". ?When I think something is for Fesco you say "Well the > Chairman of the board doesn't seem to agree with that". No, Spot was suggesting that the QA team may have a problem with the proposal and I responded that I talked to Will about it at FUDCon and he seemed to support it. That seems like a pretty reasonable response to me. I also mentioned that Cameron Meadors was one of the people involved in the earliest discussions. I'm not speaking for Paul either - he already responded to this issue himself. https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2009-December/msg00112.html > It's not getting you anywhere and bad it's form. ?Besides, just because > someone agrees with you (or me) doesn't make it so. ?If you're not alone > on this, have them come and speak up and be willing to let them do that. > Otherwise stick to what you think on your own. ?When the whiteboard was > brought up to the FAB in October [1] it was met with complete silence. People should step forward on their own, I agree. Similarly I'd like the folks on the board go on the record and state publicly what parts of the proposal that they disagree with. That would help me understand where the points of disagreement actually are. Because those folks didn't bring up specific issues at FUDCon, on the list, or in the board meeting. But let's try to turn this into something positive. For those of us who would like to see the board give an opinion on this issue - or for the project as a whole to move in this direction, what does the board recommend that we do at this point? I have tried to convey that this wiki does not only represent my professional recommendation for the project but an effort to reflect the desires of many other stakeholders as well. I'm sorry if this has appeared to be in bad form. Even if it was I'm not sure it is productive to focus on that now. Thanks, Jon From bruno at wolff.to Sat Dec 19 21:12:19 2009 From: bruno at wolff.to (Bruno Wolff III) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 15:12:19 -0600 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2009-12-17 UTC 1700 In-Reply-To: <939dd5750912190831n4436e365y382db6b099be1e12@mail.gmail.com> References: <20091218220739.GQ20625@victoria.internal.frields.org> <939dd5750912190831n4436e365y382db6b099be1e12@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091219211219.GA23989@wolff.to> On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 11:31:05 -0500, William Jon McCann wrote: > > experience was a "red herring." It was also stated that the Fedora > project thinks a broken rawhide is not only a necessity due to lack of > QA resources but also desirable because it follows from our goals of > being first and fast. It was also stated that since we have a I find it hard to believe that anyone claimed that a broken rawhide in itself is a desireable thing. There are also different causes of brokenness. Some is brokenness within a package or small set of packages because of sloppiness. That shouldn't really be happening and is definitely not desireable. Some is caused by a change in a subsystem used by a lot of stuff without all of the dependencies also getting updated. This isn't really desireable either. Some ways of avoiding this situation have been discussed, but there can be conflicts between getting the new feature in, having packagers need to jump into action quickly to support such changes and doing the push without having all of the dependencies updated. > community to test rawhide and give us feedback when it is broken we > don't have to test it beforehand. It was also stated that we've moved Except this takes time away from people who could be doing development instead of testing. I have been doing lots of testing of broken stuff this past week or so, instead of getting some development tasks and personal stuff done. From bruno at wolff.to Sat Dec 19 21:59:30 2009 From: bruno at wolff.to (Bruno Wolff III) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 15:59:30 -0600 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2009-12-17 UTC 1700 In-Reply-To: <20091219211219.GA23989@wolff.to> References: <20091218220739.GQ20625@victoria.internal.frields.org> <939dd5750912190831n4436e365y382db6b099be1e12@mail.gmail.com> <20091219211219.GA23989@wolff.to> Message-ID: <20091219215930.GA22064@wolff.to> On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 15:12:19 -0600, Bruno Wolff III wrote: > > There are also different causes of brokenness. Some is brokenness within > a package or small set of packages because of sloppiness. That shouldn't > really be happening and is definitely not desireable. Some is caused by > a change in a subsystem used by a lot of stuff without all of the dependencies > also getting updated. This isn't really desireable either. Some ways of > avoiding this situation have been discussed, but there can be conflicts > between getting the new feature in, having packagers need to jump into > action quickly to support such changes and doing the push without having > all of the dependencies updated. I meant to add a bit more to this but got distracted and then sent the message before going back to this part. There is also another case where a new feature is being tried out and sometimes what looks good in theory doesn't work so well in practice even if there aren't actual bugs. I think this kind of issue is something that rawhide is useful for testing before a bad idea makes it to an actual release. I also think this is the kind of spear heading that Fedora should be doing. I don't think that being the first distro to use the new version of firefox or whatever, really does that much to advance free software in general. I don't think that tossing out alphas or broken betas into rawhide is really all that useful as the upstream project can find the obvious errors without help from Fedora. The kernel is a bit of an exception, because getting that tested is harder than most things and Fedora takes special steps to mitigate against bad kernels. From jwboyer at gmail.com Sat Dec 19 23:47:04 2009 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 18:47:04 -0500 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2009-12-17 UTC 1700 In-Reply-To: <939dd5750912191313l7453821fm296383e4bb3e28c6@mail.gmail.com> References: <20091218220739.GQ20625@victoria.internal.frields.org> <939dd5750912190831n4436e365y382db6b099be1e12@mail.gmail.com> <939dd5750912191106x23be03f5t6884a6d26a01e1b2@mail.gmail.com> <939dd5750912191313l7453821fm296383e4bb3e28c6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091219234703.GP16448@hansolo.jdub.homelinux.org> On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 04:13:17PM -0500, William Jon McCann wrote: >Hey Mike, > >On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 3:29 PM, Mike McGrath wrote: >> On Sat, 19 Dec 2009, William Jon McCann wrote: >> >>> > The whiteboard: >>> > >>> > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Desktop/Whiteboards/UpdateExperience >>> > >>> > is almost entirely FESCo or other team based. >>> >>> Exactly, the Chairman of board doesn't seem to agree with that. ?I >> >> It's not getting you anywhere and bad it's form. ?Besides, just because >> someone agrees with you (or me) doesn't make it so. ?If you're not alone >> on this, have them come and speak up and be willing to let them do that. >> Otherwise stick to what you think on your own. ?When the whiteboard was >> brought up to the FAB in October [1] it was met with complete silence. > >People should step forward on their own, I agree. Similarly I'd like >the folks on the board go on the record and state publicly what parts >of the proposal that they disagree with. That would help me >understand where the points of disagreement actually are. Because >those folks didn't bring up specific issues at FUDCon, on the list, or >in the board meeting. That isn't entirely true. I brought up the fact that the proposal doesn't address one of the primary causes of such a bad experience, and that is that we have almost no coherency among what we consider acceptable for a stable update, and when it's pushed. While it's certainly something the submitters of the proposal shouldn't be tasked with solving, the proposal does presume to express when and how updates get pushed without any insight into the difficulties with that. This lined up exactly with Spot's point that the proposal should be broken into separate, more managable pieces. There is a lot of overlap in there with things like AutoQA, the CritPath management, etc. Personally, I'd like to see the proposal boiled down into what is envisioned for the end user update design interaction. Also, I suggested during the meeting that Board members discuss implementation details on this list, and not during the meeting. Whether that is the reason you didn't get specific technical feedback on many portions or not, I have no idea. However it certainly is _not_ because there are no issues or some kind of silent agreement. Now, since you asked, here are my current objections to the implementation details on the Whiteboard page. I will start by saying I am under the assumption that the presentation portions of this are referring to PackageKit, or some other graphical package manager. If this implies that today's basic yum functionality needs to change, I would have major objections to that. - Overlap with the critpath and AutoQA work. The 'Testing' section at the bottom has a very limited set of things that are all in the critical path, but it is certainly not complete and overlaps the effort there entirely. Also, the sections on testing essentially describe what AutoQA is going to accomplish. Both of these have already been proposed and approved. This proposal doesn't need to rehash them. - "Users should be able to detect updates from within the application they are running." This seems both overreaching and fairly difficult to implement. I don't think patching applications to query for an update to themselves is a good idea. Also, getting update notification from multiple apps and a graphical package manager would be really annoying. - Non-interactive update installation. My only issue is if this was forced on and/or not configurable. If users can opt into it, I have no problems. - Apply updates at shutdown. Again, if this is a configurable, opt in option I have no problems. If not, I certainly don't want to wait for my laptop to install 60MiB of updates when I tell it to shutdown as I'm leaving a coffee shop. - System updates can only be defered for a short time. I would like more information as to why this is good. I certainly don't need to update e.g. grub on my non-EFI machine if the update only fixes an EFI related bug. I also have some concerns on your proposed weekly stable update releases. How does that apply to the updates testing repository? How does it apply to entirely new packages that are pushed to a stable release? Personally, I would like to see these kind of issues broken out into a separate proposal and worked through FESCo. I'd be happy to discuss it with you if you and your team would like. josh From mclasen at redhat.com Sun Dec 20 03:07:48 2009 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 22:07:48 -0500 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2009-12-17 UTC 1700 In-Reply-To: <939dd5750912190831n4436e365y382db6b099be1e12@mail.gmail.com> References: <20091218220739.GQ20625@victoria.internal.frields.org> <939dd5750912190831n4436e365y382db6b099be1e12@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1261278468.28439.3.camel@planemask> On Sat, 2009-12-19 at 11:31 -0500, William Jon McCann wrote: > > Also, do you have an audio copy or transcript of the meeting? I think > that might be of interest to some people. > I would be really interested in this. The hostile tone in this thread makes me wonder what went wrong in that meeting. Not having the context of the full meeting makes it hard for me to 'come in and speak up' as has been requested elsewhere in this thread. From mmcgrath at redhat.com Sun Dec 20 03:44:16 2009 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 21:44:16 -0600 (CST) Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2009-12-17 UTC 1700 In-Reply-To: <1261278468.28439.3.camel@planemask> References: <20091218220739.GQ20625@victoria.internal.frields.org> <939dd5750912190831n4436e365y382db6b099be1e12@mail.gmail.com> <1261278468.28439.3.camel@planemask> Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Dec 2009, Matthias Clasen wrote: > On Sat, 2009-12-19 at 11:31 -0500, William Jon McCann wrote: > > > > > Also, do you have an audio copy or transcript of the meeting? I think > > that might be of interest to some people. > > > > I would be really interested in this. The hostile tone in this thread > makes me wonder what went wrong in that meeting. Not having the context > of the full meeting makes it hard for me to 'come in and speak up' as > has been requested elsewhere in this thread. > I'm fairly certain the board meetings aren't taped and for good reason. In fact this is the first time I can think of where "someone said this, and this and this and this in the meeting" has ever been made public in such a manner. All the context you need is provided by the whiteboard though if you want to speak up. I'd mention though, the desktop team seems to be well represented by Jon, I feel very confident I have a good idea of what he is trying to accomplish with his proposal. The problem is that so far none of the other teams have chimed in and most of the suggestions I've heard made to him have been completely ignored (break it up into smaller bits, take it to fesco, take it to the other teams, etc) -Mike From inode0 at gmail.com Sun Dec 20 04:13:21 2009 From: inode0 at gmail.com (inode0) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 22:13:21 -0600 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2009-12-17 UTC 1700 In-Reply-To: References: <20091218220739.GQ20625@victoria.internal.frields.org> <939dd5750912190831n4436e365y382db6b099be1e12@mail.gmail.com> <1261278468.28439.3.camel@planemask> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 9:44 PM, Mike McGrath wrote: > I'm fairly certain the board meetings aren't taped and for good reason. If the only topic at this meeting was the updates/installs presentation I'm having a hard time imagining a good reason it couldn't have been done in public. Doing work out in the open is not always possible, it is almost never as convenient as the alternative, but I hope the board will continue to look for opportunities to give the community access. John From mmcgrath at redhat.com Sun Dec 20 04:24:34 2009 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 22:24:34 -0600 (CST) Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2009-12-17 UTC 1700 In-Reply-To: References: <20091218220739.GQ20625@victoria.internal.frields.org> <939dd5750912190831n4436e365y382db6b099be1e12@mail.gmail.com> <1261278468.28439.3.camel@planemask> Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Dec 2009, inode0 wrote: > On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 9:44 PM, Mike McGrath wrote: > > I'm fairly certain the board meetings aren't taped and for good reason. > > If the only topic at this meeting was the updates/installs > presentation I'm having a hard time imagining a good reason it > couldn't have been done in public. Doing work out in the open is not > always possible, it is almost never as convenient as the alternative, > but I hope the board will continue to look for opportunities to give > the community access. > In hindsight not having this talk during a public board meeting was certainly a mistake. But then I'm still confused why this was taken to a board meeting at all. Especially if, as Jon says, everyone he's spoken to is in agreement with it. If everyone's in agreement, why not just do it? It's not like the items listed on the white board need the boards permission or anything. -Mike From matt at domsch.com Sun Dec 20 05:12:10 2009 From: matt at domsch.com (Matt Domsch) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2009 23:12:10 -0600 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2009-12-17 UTC 1700 In-Reply-To: References: <20091218220739.GQ20625@victoria.internal.frields.org> <939dd5750912190831n4436e365y382db6b099be1e12@mail.gmail.com> <1261278468.28439.3.camel@planemask> Message-ID: <20091220051210.GA30581@domsch.com> On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 10:13:21PM -0600, inode0 wrote: > On Sat, Dec 19, 2009 at 9:44 PM, Mike McGrath wrote: > > I'm fairly certain the board meetings aren't taped and for good reason. > > If the only topic at this meeting was the updates/installs > presentation I'm having a hard time imagining a good reason it > couldn't have been done in public. It certainly could have been, but in general we've been having one public IRC meeting a month, and the other three are higher-bandwidth phone calls with notes taken during the call. This happened to make the agenda for a phone call. Given the tone, and repetitiveness of the conversation, it could have been done on IRC too... > Doing work out in the open is not always possible, it is almost > never as convenient as the alternative, but I hope the board will > continue to look for opportunities to give the community access. I struggle with this. From a logistics POV, we could do a wider phone bridge, or bridge with limited voicing. I think we've been waiting on Fedora Talk to have that capability. But I don't think listening in on a 2-hour meandering conversation, either live or recorded later, would really help in this instance. Their proposal was public (it's in the wiki), and was certainly discussed in various groups at FUDCon Toronto. I don't know how much more open that can be, without requiring all conversations about anything to get moved onto the mailing lists. I think the whiteboard proposal doesn't do enough to explain what the pain points are, before it jumps into proposals for how to address them. Maybe the pain is obvious, but it's hard to motivate large swaths of the project contributors to change their ways without being able to articulate _why_ they should, and how life will be better having done so. I don't fault Jon and Christopher for bringing their idea to the Board. They are in many ways trying to help define the audience for Fedora, which the Board has been struggling with for some time. The problem here (from my perspective) was recognizing that there are many audiences to satisfy. Furthermore, I'd like anyone to feel comfortable bringing any concerns, ideas, etc. to the Board. Yes, the Board may well redirect (either before or after listening), but the Board need not only converse on requests raised by another formal committee (e.g. FESCo). Jon and Christopher presented a plan which, to me, tried to collapse several different audiences into one. I think that the audience for updates-released is significantly different than the audience for rawhide. In increasing levels of "pain I as a user am willing to put up with", updates-released -> updates-testing -> Fedora++-devel (early branching due to No Frozen Rawhide plans) -> rawhide. Processes (including level of QA) that let developers push updates into rawhide necessarily should differ from pushing updates into updates-released. Is rawhide in its current form perfect - no, far from it. But concrete steps _are_ being taken to address the most obvious pain points: No Frozen Rawhide, including early branching for Fedora++; AutoQA to test trees prior to being published. Maybe even (gasp) nightly repoclosure, and, dare I say it, automatic rebuilds of packages when one of their dependencies change. Is the updates-released process perfect? Again, no, and steps are being taken to address some of the more visible pain points here too. The return of "the set of packages which thou shalt not break" is welcome - now we need some help with AutoQA to check those more thoroughly. Getting additional people to use updates-testing, and report bodhi karma and comments, either as a formal tester or not, would help. Batching updates into weekly chunks? I'm not convinced yet. I can see how that might give a QA team a more testable target, but I'm not convinced it helps our users a whole lot. What I'd like to see out of this is that when people do wish to suggest far-ranging changes to the Project, please put more rigor put into articulating the problems, politely, but thoroughly, and proposed solutions, in a consumable fashion. Sure, this may cross internal boundaries and responsibilities - I'd hope we're not so inflexible as to allow such. If you don't know where a piece or two belongs, the Board can help with that redirection. Thanks, Matt From stickster at gmail.com Tue Dec 22 00:29:59 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul Frields) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 19:29:59 -0500 Subject: Fedora Board December 2009 Results In-Reply-To: <20091217164801.GA13311@victoria.internal.frields.org> References: <264925074.9351261056830345.JavaMail.root@zmail07.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com> <260973641.9441261056842767.JavaMail.root@zmail07.collab.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com> <20091217164801.GA13311@victoria.internal.frields.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 17, 2009 at 11:48 AM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > Fri Dec 18 -- OOA this date, announce final appointment to Board > > Thu Dec 24 -- No meeting, holiday break > > Thu Dec 31 -- No meeting, holiday break > > Thu Jan 07 -- Handoff meeting, any non-returning Board members invited > ? ? ? ? ? ? ?to attend as their last meeting > > There are a few individuals under consideration for the final > appointed Board seat. ?This appointment is made after elections are > completed to balance the Board's composition, and represent the entire > Fedora community as much as possible. ?Although this appointment is > ultimately up to the Fedora Project Leader to decide, generally the > FPL discusses the appointments with others to achieve a consensus. ?I > expect to make this final appointment within the next few days. I still have the final Board appointment under consideration. The selection and announcement will be made after Christmas but significantly before the first meeting of the new Board on January 7. Apologies for the late notice -- this note was drafted earlier but I hadn't had a chance to send it out. Paul