From mairin at linuxgrrl.com Thu Nov 5 20:57:17 2009 From: mairin at linuxgrrl.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn?= Duffy) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 15:57:17 -0500 Subject: The Fedora experience Message-ID: <1257454637.2190.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Please check this article out. I think with our new website design we need to be providing an experience - a presentation - like this, and these techniques seem like they'll be a useful guide. ~m http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/content/oct2009/sb2009106_706829.htm Uncovering Steve Jobs' Presentation Secrets "For his new book, communications coach Carmine Gallo watched hours of Jobs' keynotes. Here he identifies the five elements of every presentation by the Apple CEO" ... "1. A headline. Steve Jobs positions every product with a headline that fits well within a 140-character Twitter post. For example, Jobs described the MacBook Air as "the world's thinnest notebook." That phrase appeared on his presentation slides, the Apple Web site, and Apple's press releases at the same time. What is the one thing you want people to know about your product? This headline must be consistent in all of your marketing and presentation material." From stickster at gmail.com Thu Nov 5 22:52:51 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 17:52:51 -0500 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2009-11-05 UTC 1700 Message-ID: <20091105225251.GB2894@victoria.internal.frields.org> Minutes: http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-board-meeting/2009-11-05/fedora-board-meeting.2009-11-05-17.01.html Minutes (text): http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-board-meeting/2009-11-05/fedora-board-meeting.2009-11-05-17.01.txt Log: http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-board-meeting/2009-11-05/fedora-board-meeting.2009-11-05-17.01.log.html ============================= #fedora-board-meeting Meeting ============================= Meeting started by stickster at 17:01:52 UTC. The full logs are available at http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-board-meeting/2009-11-05/fedora-board-meeting.2009-11-05-17.01.log.html . Meeting summary --------------- * Roll call (stickster, 17:01:59) * Fedora 12 release (stickster, 17:04:33) * LINK: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_12_one_page_release_notes (stickster, 17:05:44) * If you have pictures of people using Fedora or at an event you'd like to contribute, please send them along to the fedora-marketing-list, drop the link in IRC Freenode at #fedora-mktg, or just email stickster (stickster, 17:06:28) * Updates for F12 enabled in bodhi -- package maintainers take note! (stickster, 17:07:42) * Community Q&A (stickster, 17:08:03) * LINK: http://lwn.net/Articles/359271/ (jwb, 17:11:49) * LINK: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Hall_Monitor_Policy#Background (stickster, 17:21:33) * website redesigns (stickster, 17:27:53) * LINK: http://spins-test.fedoraproject.org/ (mdomsch, 17:30:19) * LINK: http://spins-test.fedoraproject.org/ (stickster, 17:30:37) * Spins site redesign is almost complete and should be able to go live soon (stickster, 17:31:03) * AGREED: Board members to talk to ricky about clarifying the open role of webmaster, and based on that, work on recruiting someone with substantial time outside of Infrastructure team (stickster, 17:41:21) * ACTION: stickster to pursue resources to support a regular Fedora Board f2f meeting. (stickster, 18:12:40) * ACTION: poelcat and stickster to gear up FAB thread, getting experienced UI/design people to help with user profiling (stickster, 18:16:56) * LINK: http://docs.fedoraproject.org/drafts.html (stickster, 18:19:18) * LINK: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_write_a_Fedora_press_release (stickster, 18:21:44) * wrap up (stickster, 18:23:52) * Fedora 13 release name schedule: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Name_suggestions_for_Fedora_13#Naming_Schedule (stickster, 18:25:27) * ACTION: jwb and stickster to get help with naming process (stickster, 18:27:35) Meeting ended at 18:28:50 UTC. Action Items ------------ * stickster to pursue resources to support a regular Fedora Board f2f meeting. * poelcat and stickster to gear up FAB thread, getting experienced UI/design people to help with user profiling * jwb and stickster to get help with naming process Action Items, by person ----------------------- * jwb * jwb and stickster to get help with naming process * poelcat * poelcat and stickster to gear up FAB thread, getting experienced UI/design people to help with user profiling * stickster * stickster to pursue resources to support a regular Fedora Board f2f meeting. * poelcat and stickster to gear up FAB thread, getting experienced UI/design people to help with user profiling * jwb and stickster to get help with naming process * **UNASSIGNED** * (none) People Present (lines said) --------------------------- * stickster (158) * mmcgrath (38) * jwb (26) * mdomsch (25) * poelcat (22) * skvidal (21) * notting (17) * nirik (14) * dgilmore (9) * jjmcd_ (7) * zodbot (2) * caillon (2) * spot (1) Generated by `MeetBot`_ 0.1.4 .. _`MeetBot`: http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot From loupgaroublond at gmail.com Fri Nov 6 10:12:53 2009 From: loupgaroublond at gmail.com (Yaakov Nemoy) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 11:12:53 +0100 Subject: The Fedora experience In-Reply-To: <1257454637.2190.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1257454637.2190.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <7f692fec0911060212s6963b545p3651a0502f4a1d6a@mail.gmail.com> 2009/11/5 M?ir?n Duffy : > Please check this article out. I think with our new website design we > need to be providing an experience - a presentation - like this, and > these techniques seem like they'll be a useful guide. > > ~m > > http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/content/oct2009/sb2009106_706829.htm > > Uncovering Steve Jobs' Presentation Secrets > > "For his new book, communications coach Carmine Gallo watched hours of > Jobs' keynotes. Here he identifies the five elements of every > presentation by the Apple CEO" ... > > "1. A headline. Steve Jobs positions every product with a headline that > fits well within a 140-character Twitter post. For example, Jobs > described the MacBook Air as "the world's thinnest notebook." That > phrase appeared on his presentation slides, the Apple Web site, and > Apple's press releases at the same time. What is the one thing you want > people to know about your product? This headline must be consistent in > all of your marketing and presentation material." A bit of trolling, but i mean this seriously in a way. The article mentions having a villain. Who is our villain? Is it Microsoft or Canonical? But seriously, we focus on being a leader where it doesn't matter what other people are doing. Being compared to either of those two just goes against our principles. -Yaakov From mairin at linuxgrrl.com Fri Nov 6 14:29:20 2009 From: mairin at linuxgrrl.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn?= Duffy) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 09:29:20 -0500 Subject: The Fedora experience In-Reply-To: <7f692fec0911060212s6963b545p3651a0502f4a1d6a@mail.gmail.com> References: <1257454637.2190.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <7f692fec0911060212s6963b545p3651a0502f4a1d6a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1257517760.7737.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2009-11-06 at 11:12 +0100, Yaakov Nemoy wrote: > A bit of trolling, but i mean this seriously in a way. > > The article mentions having a villain. Who is our villain? Is it > Microsoft or Canonical? > > But seriously, we focus on being a leader where it doesn't matter what > other people are doing. Being compared to either of those two just > goes against our principles. I think our villian is proprietary software and closed formats. Our villian is maybe people who don't share? ~m From loupgaroublond at gmail.com Fri Nov 6 14:53:35 2009 From: loupgaroublond at gmail.com (Yaakov Nemoy) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 15:53:35 +0100 Subject: The Fedora experience In-Reply-To: <1257517760.7737.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1257454637.2190.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <7f692fec0911060212s6963b545p3651a0502f4a1d6a@mail.gmail.com> <1257517760.7737.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <7f692fec0911060653o5db9c56eu2817adac5ccdfca9@mail.gmail.com> 2009/11/6 M?ir?n Duffy : > On Fri, 2009-11-06 at 11:12 +0100, Yaakov Nemoy wrote: >> A bit of trolling, but i mean this seriously in a way. >> >> The article mentions having a villain. Who is our villain? Is it >> Microsoft or Canonical? >> >> But seriously, we focus on being a leader where it doesn't matter what >> other people are doing. Being compared to either of those two just >> goes against our principles. > > I think our villian is proprietary software and closed formats. Our > villian is maybe people who don't share? I was thinking along similar lines, but how can we make this more concrete? I'm just curious, since i see having a concrete personal villain against the way we do things and a bit mean spirited. It takes away the ability to be an all inclusive community. Then again, taking the moral low road has been successful for Apple. -Yaakov PS, i don't think it's the only reason for their success, i'm just curious in what framework we set this in. From bkearney at redhat.com Fri Nov 6 15:32:02 2009 From: bkearney at redhat.com (Bryan Kearney) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 10:32:02 -0500 Subject: The Fedora experience In-Reply-To: <7f692fec0911060653o5db9c56eu2817adac5ccdfca9@mail.gmail.com> References: <1257454637.2190.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> <7f692fec0911060212s6963b545p3651a0502f4a1d6a@mail.gmail.com> <1257517760.7737.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> <7f692fec0911060653o5db9c56eu2817adac5ccdfca9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AF44172.1020001@redhat.com> On 11/06/2009 09:53 AM, Yaakov Nemoy wrote: > 2009/11/6 M?ir?n Duffy: >> On Fri, 2009-11-06 at 11:12 +0100, Yaakov Nemoy wrote: >>> A bit of trolling, but i mean this seriously in a way. >>> >>> The article mentions having a villain. Who is our villain? Is it >>> Microsoft or Canonical? >>> >>> But seriously, we focus on being a leader where it doesn't matter what >>> other people are doing. Being compared to either of those two just >>> goes against our principles. >> >> I think our villian is proprietary software and closed formats. Our >> villian is maybe people who don't share? Looks like a good book to read. I question the villain item recently. Yes, that is what the mac ads are. But the keynotes are all about lifestyle and coolness. The Air had no villian, and I dont think the iPhone did. It was more coolness then against "Them". For broader adoption, I think Linux and FOSS needs that type of coolness which speaks to a broader audience. Closed formats speak to some, but for others who can read their 10 year old .doc formats in Office 2009 it is not a big play. -- bk From inode0 at gmail.com Sun Nov 8 15:36:39 2009 From: inode0 at gmail.com (inode0) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 09:36:39 -0600 Subject: Upcoming Fedora Election Schedule (Proposal) Message-ID: * F13 Naming Schedule The schedule proposed by John appears perfect to me so if there are no objections we'll proceed with that schedule as outlined here https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Name_suggestions_for_Fedora_13#Naming_Schedule * Fedora Advisory Board and Steering Committee Election Schedule November 10-16: Nomination of candidates for open seats November 17-23: Candidate questionnaire period (answers are private until published as a group) November 26: Publish questionnaire responses no later than November 26 November 27 - December 3: IRC town hall meetings (1 or 2 at the discretion of the board/committee) December 5-7: Live town hall meetings at FUDCon (?) December 8-15: Voting period I am proposing a slightly more compressed nomination and voting period than we have had in the past to accommodate better processing of the questionnaires which were found to be very valuable last election cycle but for which there was not sufficient time to publish answers prior to all of the town hall meetings. I haven't been a party to the discussions about live town hall meetings at FUDCon in Toronto but I see them on the draft election page at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Elections I'm really not sure how these are intended to work when the candidates for open seats may well not be present. I am only aware of one FAmSCo member planning to attend and a subset of the other bodies. Can someone fill me in on how these are supposed to be useful in the election process? If they came before the IRC town halls I could see them providing good context but happening at the very end of the election process I'm unclear what role they are supposed to the playing in the elections. Comments please. John From fugolini at fedoraproject.org Sun Nov 8 16:38:40 2009 From: fugolini at fedoraproject.org (Francesco Ugolini) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 17:38:40 +0100 Subject: Upcoming Fedora Election Schedule (Proposal) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3d4767520911080838u48e6f7c2lf7df110f8b983cd4@mail.gmail.com> 2009/11/8 inode0 : > > I am proposing a slightly more compressed nomination and voting period > than we have had in the past to accommodate better processing of the > questionnaires which were found to be very valuable last election > cycle but for which there was not sufficient time to publish answers > prior to all of the ?town hall meetings. I really like the idea. Will it be unique for all the committees and advisory board? > I'm really not sure how these are intended to work when the candidates > for open seats may well not be present. I am only aware of one FAmSCo > member planning to attend and a subset of the other bodies. Can > someone fill me in on how these are supposed to be useful in the > election process? If they came before the IRC town halls I could see > them providing good context but happening at the very end of the > election process I'm unclear what role they are supposed to the > playing in the elections. If there is a camera and a microphone they could be used to create videos. Just a small problem: only fudcon attendees will be able to make questions/give answers. I think FUDCons could be a good platform to start a discussion, at list for ambassadors, on local/regional issues. I think, in this case, if NA ambassadors agree it could be interesting to see what could happen with this system. >From the other committeess/advisory board, I don't know how it could impact, since their model seems different from ambassadors project one (our goals require a regional structure). BTW, IRC meetings are a great place to have people all together, and sure Ambassadors will have one ;) Just another point: is December 27th a doable date? I don't know how many people will attend it (it's just 2 days after Christmas day). Maybe a good promotion of this date will help people organizing their time in order to attend. Regards Francesco From jwboyer at gmail.com Sun Nov 8 17:48:08 2009 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 12:48:08 -0500 Subject: Upcoming Fedora Election Schedule (Proposal) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20091108174808.GH5367@hansolo.jdub.homelinux.org> On Sun, Nov 08, 2009 at 09:36:39AM -0600, inode0 wrote: >* F13 Naming Schedule > >The schedule proposed by John appears perfect to me so if there are no >objections we'll proceed with that schedule as outlined here > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Name_suggestions_for_Fedora_13#Naming_Schedule > >* Fedora Advisory Board and Steering Committee Election Schedule Small correction: it's Fedora Board, not Fedora Advisory Board. josh From inode0 at gmail.com Sun Nov 8 17:58:24 2009 From: inode0 at gmail.com (inode0) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 11:58:24 -0600 Subject: Upcoming Fedora Election Schedule (Proposal) In-Reply-To: <20091108174808.GH5367@hansolo.jdub.homelinux.org> References: <20091108174808.GH5367@hansolo.jdub.homelinux.org> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 11:48 AM, Josh Boyer wrote: > On Sun, Nov 08, 2009 at 09:36:39AM -0600, inode0 wrote: >>* F13 Naming Schedule >> >>The schedule proposed by John appears perfect to me so if there are no >>objections we'll proceed with that schedule as outlined here >> >> ? ? ?https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Name_suggestions_for_Fedora_13#Naming_Schedule >> >>* Fedora Advisory Board and Steering Committee Election Schedule > > Small correction: it's Fedora Board, not Fedora Advisory Board. I'll use Fedora Project Board in announcements since that appears to be the official designation. John From inode0 at gmail.com Sun Nov 8 18:40:41 2009 From: inode0 at gmail.com (inode0) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 12:40:41 -0600 Subject: Upcoming Fedora Election Schedule (Proposal) In-Reply-To: <3d4767520911080838u48e6f7c2lf7df110f8b983cd4@mail.gmail.com> References: <3d4767520911080838u48e6f7c2lf7df110f8b983cd4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 10:38 AM, Francesco Ugolini wrote: > 2009/11/8 inode0 : >> >> I am proposing a slightly more compressed nomination and voting period >> than we have had in the past to accommodate better processing of the >> questionnaires which were found to be very valuable last election >> cycle but for which there was not sufficient time to publish answers >> prior to all of the ?town hall meetings. > > I really like the idea. Will it be unique for all the committees and > advisory board? It wasn't last year but it could be this year if there are suggestions. Here is a link to the questionnaire from last time. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Elections/Questionnaire >> I'm really not sure how these are intended to work when the candidates >> for open seats may well not be present. I am only aware of one FAmSCo >> member planning to attend and a subset of the other bodies. Can >> someone fill me in on how these are supposed to be useful in the >> election process? If they came before the IRC town halls I could see >> them providing good context but happening at the very end of the >> election process I'm unclear what role they are supposed to the >> playing in the elections. > > If there is a camera and a microphone they could be used to create > videos. Just a small problem: only fudcon attendees will be able to > make questions/give answers. > > ?I think FUDCons could be a good platform to start a discussion, at > list for ambassadors, on local/regional issues. I think, in this case, > if NA ambassadors agree it could be interesting to see what could > happen with this system. > > >From the other committeess/advisory board, I don't know how it could > impact, since their model seems different from ambassadors project one > (our goals require a regional structure). > > BTW, IRC meetings are a great place to have people all together, and > sure Ambassadors will have one ;) > > Just another point: is December 27th a doable date? I don't know how > many people will attend it (it's just 2 days after Christmas day). > Maybe a good promotion of this date will help people organizing their > time in order to attend. The elections as proposed conclude on December 15. John From fugolini at fedoraproject.org Sun Nov 8 18:44:02 2009 From: fugolini at fedoraproject.org (Francesco Ugolini) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 19:44:02 +0100 Subject: Upcoming Fedora Election Schedule (Proposal) In-Reply-To: References: <3d4767520911080838u48e6f7c2lf7df110f8b983cd4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3d4767520911081044g2dc6f595vb7f4195cb2151aa6@mail.gmail.com> 2009/11/8 inode0 : > > The elections as proposed conclude on December 15. I apologize. I mixed 27 with the month of the following tasks. Then no problem at all! Regards Francesco From fedora at leemhuis.info Sun Nov 8 19:11:25 2009 From: fedora at leemhuis.info (Thorsten Leemhuis) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2009 20:11:25 +0100 Subject: Upcoming Fedora Election Schedule (Proposal) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AF717DD.4090600@leemhuis.info> Hi! inode0 wrote on 08.11.2009 16:36: > [...] > * Fedora Advisory Board and Steering Committee Election Schedule > > November 10-16: Nomination of candidates for open seats > November 17-23: Candidate questionnaire period (answers are private > until published as a group) > November 26: Publish questionnaire responses no later than November 26 > November 27 - December 3: IRC town hall meetings (1 or 2 at the > discretion of the board/committee) > [...] > I am proposing a slightly more compressed nomination and voting period > than we have had in the past to accommodate better processing of the > questionnaires which were found to be very valuable last election > cycle but for which there was not sufficient time to publish answers > prior to all of the town hall meetings. I'd do it like this to have it even more compressed and do something like this: November 10-16: prepare questions for the candidate questionnaire and publish them on November 17 November 17-23: Nomination of candidates for open seats November 25 deadline for candidate to send in answers for the candidate questionnaire; answers have to be private and get published as a group November 26: Publish questionnaire responses no later than November 26 November 27 - December 3: IRC town hall meetings (1 or 2 at the > discretion of the board/committee) > [...] Reasons: That gives people that nominate early more then a week to prepare the answers; those that nominate on the last minute have way less time, but that's their own "fault". CU knurd From inode0 at gmail.com Mon Nov 9 05:16:09 2009 From: inode0 at gmail.com (inode0) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 23:16:09 -0600 Subject: Upcoming Fedora Election Schedule (Proposal) In-Reply-To: <4AF717DD.4090600@leemhuis.info> References: <4AF717DD.4090600@leemhuis.info> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 1:11 PM, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > Hi! > > inode0 wrote on 08.11.2009 16:36: >> [...] >> * Fedora Advisory Board and Steering Committee Election Schedule >> >> November 10-16: Nomination of candidates for open seats >> November 17-23: Candidate questionnaire period (answers are private >> until published as a group) >> November 26: Publish questionnaire responses no later than November 26 >> November 27 - December 3: IRC town hall meetings (1 or 2 at the >> discretion of the board/committee) >> [...] >> I am proposing a slightly more compressed nomination and voting period >> than we have had in the past to accommodate better processing of the >> questionnaires which were found to be very valuable last election >> cycle but for which there was not sufficient time to publish answers >> prior to all of the ?town hall meetings. > > I'd do it like this to have it even more compressed and do something > like this: > > November 10-16: prepare questions for the candidate questionnaire and > publish them on November 17 I meant to publish the questions on the 17th so we could begin generating them ASAP and have the answers returned by the 23rd giving a couple of days to you (I hope you are willing to help with this again) to work your magic on them. > November 17-23: Nomination of candidates for open seats > November 25 deadline for candidate to send in answers for the candidate > questionnaire; answers have to be private and get published as a group > November 26: Publish questionnaire responses no later than November 26 > November 27 - December 3: IRC town hall meetings (1 or 2 at the >> discretion of the board/committee) >> [...] > > Reasons: That gives people that nominate early more then a week to > prepare the answers; those that nominate on the last minute have way > less time, but that's their own "fault". So I think the only question is whether to have the nomination period before or after the publication of the questions. I'm not sure how I feel about that. I see your point. I don't like penalizing someone who gets "recruited" to run either though. It isn't really their fault they don't run to nominate themselves on the first day. And the answers were so useful to the people voting that I'd like to make sure all candidates have a reasonable amount of time to answer them for us. So with the nomination period at the same time as the generation of the question, and the nomination period ending when the questions are released, gives everyone one week to give them serious thought and write up meaningful answers. I think this is most helpful to voters. John From inode0 at gmail.com Mon Nov 9 05:40:18 2009 From: inode0 at gmail.com (inode0) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 23:40:18 -0600 Subject: Upcoming Fedora elections In-Reply-To: <4AEA04A8.1030606@redhat.com> References: <20091026214525.GA24576@domsch.com> <20091026221520.GV21903@victoria.internal.frields.org> <4AEA04A8.1030606@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 3:10 PM, John Poelstra wrote: > On 10/26/2009 03:15 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: >> >> I believe the Fedora 13 naming election will be happening >> significantly before FUDCon, so that we can announce the new name at >> the event. ?Although that's not technically a requirement, and can be >> dropped if desired, it's a little bit of extra fun. ?Names would be >> collected around the second week in November and a vote around the end >> of the month. > > I stubbed out the schedule for Fedora 13. > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Name_suggestions_for_Fedora_13#Naming_Schedule Thanks John. I have been asked to consider having the voting period for this election include a full weekend. Would this work for you as well? Would this be ok with the legal review needs? * Name collection: November 10 to November 16 * List to Fedora Board: November 16 to November 21 * Legal Review of Board approved names: November 21 to November 28 * Community vote on final name: November 28 to December 4 * Name announced: December 5, 2009 John From fedora at leemhuis.info Mon Nov 9 14:38:21 2009 From: fedora at leemhuis.info (Thorsten Leemhuis) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 15:38:21 +0100 Subject: Upcoming Fedora Election Schedule (Proposal) In-Reply-To: References: <4AF717DD.4090600@leemhuis.info> Message-ID: <4AF8295D.7080600@leemhuis.info> inode0 wrote on 09.11.2009 06:16: > On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 1:11 PM, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: >> inode0 wrote on 08.11.2009 16:36: >>> [...] >>> * Fedora Advisory Board and Steering Committee Election Schedule >>> November 10-16: Nomination of candidates for open seats >>> November 17-23: Candidate questionnaire period (answers are private >>> until published as a group) >>> November 26: Publish questionnaire responses no later than November 26 >>> November 27 - December 3: IRC town hall meetings (1 or 2 at the >>> discretion of the board/committee) >>> [...] >>> I am proposing a slightly more compressed nomination and voting period >>> than we have had in the past to accommodate better processing of the >>> questionnaires which were found to be very valuable last election >>> cycle but for which there was not sufficient time to publish answers >>> prior to all of the town hall meetings. >> I'd do it like this to have it even more compressed and do something >> like this: >> November 10-16: prepare questions for the candidate questionnaire and >> publish them on November 17 > I meant to publish the questions on the 17th so we could begin > generating them ASAP and have the answers returned by the 23rd giving > a couple of days to you (I hope you are willing to help with this > again) to work your magic on them. /me better should have kept his nose down, as then maybe someone else might have taken care of that work I assume there is no one around that wants volunteers to do it? >> November 17-23: Nomination of candidates for open seats >> November 25 deadline for candidate to send in answers for the candidate >> questionnaire; answers have to be private and get published as a group >> November 26: Publish questionnaire responses no later than November 26 >> November 27 - December 3: IRC town hall meetings (1 or 2 at the >>> discretion of the board/committee) >>> [...] >> >> Reasons: That gives people that nominate early more then a week to >> prepare the answers; those that nominate on the last minute have way >> less time, but that's their own "fault". > So I think the only question is whether to have the nomination period > before or after the publication of the questions. I'm not sure how I > feel about that. Actually I'm not completely sure myself. A bit of overlap could work as well... CU knurd From inode0 at gmail.com Mon Nov 9 20:21:22 2009 From: inode0 at gmail.com (inode0) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 14:21:22 -0600 Subject: Upcoming Fedora Election Schedule (Proposal) In-Reply-To: <4AF8295D.7080600@leemhuis.info> References: <4AF717DD.4090600@leemhuis.info> <4AF8295D.7080600@leemhuis.info> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 8:38 AM, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > inode0 wrote on 09.11.2009 06:16: >> On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 1:11 PM, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: >> I meant to publish the questions on the 17th so we could begin >> generating them ASAP and have the answers returned by the 23rd giving >> a couple of days to you (I hope you are willing to help with this >> again) to work your magic on them. > > /me better should have kept his nose down, as then maybe someone else > might have taken care of that work > > I assume there is no one around that wants volunteers to do it? Please help again, your work last time made a real impact. >> So I think the only question is whether to have the nomination period >> before or after the publication of the questions. I'm not sure how I >> feel about that. > > Actually I'm not completely sure myself. A bit of overlap could work as > well... If I don't hear any yelling what I think I plan to do at this point is have the nomination period and the collection of questions overlap completely running Nov. 10-16. The final questions can be published for the candidates to answer on the 17th and we'll give them one week until the 23rd to return them. That will hopefully give them time to carefully craft their answers without feeling overly rushed. One question about the question collection process that I need to know before sending out an announcement is where are those going to be collected? Will the page here http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Elections/Questionnaire be "reset" to begin the current cycle as a collection point for the new questions? Thanks, John From poelstra at redhat.com Tue Nov 10 00:52:46 2009 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 16:52:46 -0800 Subject: Upcoming Fedora elections In-Reply-To: References: <20091026214525.GA24576@domsch.com> <20091026221520.GV21903@victoria.internal.frields.org> <4AEA04A8.1030606@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4AF8B95E.1080608@redhat.com> On 11/08/2009 09:40 PM, inode0 wrote: > On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 3:10 PM, John Poelstra wrote: >> On 10/26/2009 03:15 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: >>> >>> I believe the Fedora 13 naming election will be happening >>> significantly before FUDCon, so that we can announce the new name at >>> the event. Although that's not technically a requirement, and can be >>> dropped if desired, it's a little bit of extra fun. Names would be >>> collected around the second week in November and a vote around the end >>> of the month. >> >> I stubbed out the schedule for Fedora 13. >> >> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Name_suggestions_for_Fedora_13#Naming_Schedule > > Thanks John. I have been asked to consider having the voting period > for this election include a full weekend. Would this work for you as > well? Would this be ok with the legal review needs? > > * Name collection: November 10 to November 16 > * List to Fedora Board: November 16 to November 21 > * Legal Review of Board approved names: November 21 to November 28 > * Community vote on final name: November 28 to December 4 > * Name announced: December 5, 2009 > > John That seems fine to me. One thing some people might raise (which I don't think matters) is that Fedora 12 won't be released before we start on a name for Fedora 13. The original dates were drafted before Fedora 12 slipped. This also shorts the legal review by three work days which might cause problems.... might not. It's hard to know how much the "weekend" buys in this case because it is a holiday weekend in the US. John P From inode0 at gmail.com Tue Nov 10 02:05:02 2009 From: inode0 at gmail.com (inode0) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 20:05:02 -0600 Subject: F13 Naming: Leonidas -> Constantine -> ? Message-ID: With Fedora 12 just a few days from release it is time to begin the naming process for the next Fedora release. Contributors can make suggestions for the name for Fedora 13 by visiting https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Name_suggestions_for_Fedora_13 and following the instructions. Remember there needs to be an "is-a" link between the name Constantine and the name you suggest and this link must be different than all previous links used to connect Fedora release names. Full details of the release naming schedule are available on the above link but please note than the period for gathering suggestions begins now and runs through November 16. So there isn't a lot of time, think up some good names, and get them added to the wiki. Have fun, John From stickster at gmail.com Tue Nov 10 06:57:57 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 16:57:57 +1000 Subject: Upcoming Fedora elections In-Reply-To: References: <20091026214525.GA24576@domsch.com> <20091026221520.GV21903@victoria.internal.frields.org> <4AEA04A8.1030606@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20091110065757.GH3453@victoria.internal.frields.org> On Sun, Nov 08, 2009 at 11:40:18PM -0600, inode0 wrote: > On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 3:10 PM, John Poelstra wrote: > > On 10/26/2009 03:15 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > >> > >> I believe the Fedora 13 naming election will be happening > >> significantly before FUDCon, so that we can announce the new name at > >> the event. ?Although that's not technically a requirement, and can be > >> dropped if desired, it's a little bit of extra fun. ?Names would be > >> collected around the second week in November and a vote around the end > >> of the month. > > > > I stubbed out the schedule for Fedora 13. > > > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Name_suggestions_for_Fedora_13#Naming_Schedule > > Thanks John. I have been asked to consider having the voting period > for this election include a full weekend. Would this work for you as > well? Would this be ok with the legal review needs? > > * Name collection: November 10 to November 16 > * List to Fedora Board: November 16 to November 21 > * Legal Review of Board approved names: November 21 to November 28 > * Community vote on final name: November 28 to December 4 > * Name announced: December 5, 2009 Looks pretty good to me, although I would like the Board to make its recommendations to Red Hat Legal by NLT November 19, to ensure we aren't sending Legal into crunch time right before the Thanksgiving holiday. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From stickster at gmail.com Tue Nov 10 08:18:54 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 18:18:54 +1000 Subject: Upcoming Fedora elections In-Reply-To: <4AF8B95E.1080608@redhat.com> References: <20091026214525.GA24576@domsch.com> <20091026221520.GV21903@victoria.internal.frields.org> <4AEA04A8.1030606@redhat.com> <4AF8B95E.1080608@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20091110081854.GD5774@victoria.internal.frields.org> On Mon, Nov 09, 2009 at 04:52:46PM -0800, John Poelstra wrote: > On 11/08/2009 09:40 PM, inode0 wrote: > >On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 3:10 PM, John Poelstra wrote: > >>On 10/26/2009 03:15 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > >>> > >>>I believe the Fedora 13 naming election will be happening > >>>significantly before FUDCon, so that we can announce the new name at > >>>the event. Although that's not technically a requirement, and can be > >>>dropped if desired, it's a little bit of extra fun. Names would be > >>>collected around the second week in November and a vote around the end > >>>of the month. > >> > >>I stubbed out the schedule for Fedora 13. > >> > >>https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Name_suggestions_for_Fedora_13#Naming_Schedule > > > >Thanks John. I have been asked to consider having the voting period > >for this election include a full weekend. Would this work for you as > >well? Would this be ok with the legal review needs? > > > > * Name collection: November 10 to November 16 > > * List to Fedora Board: November 16 to November 21 > > * Legal Review of Board approved names: November 21 to November 28 > > * Community vote on final name: November 28 to December 4 > > * Name announced: December 5, 2009 > > > >John > > That seems fine to me. One thing some people might raise (which I > don't think matters) is that Fedora 12 won't be released before we > start on a name for Fedora 13. The original dates were drafted > before Fedora 12 slipped. > > This also shorts the legal review by three work days which might > cause problems.... might not. It's hard to know how much the > "weekend" buys in this case because it is a holiday weekend in the > US. I did touch base with Legal earlier and they said they'd be able to deliver the goods even with the impending holidays. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From stickster at gmail.com Tue Nov 10 08:22:04 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 18:22:04 +1000 Subject: Upcoming Fedora Election Schedule (Proposal) In-Reply-To: References: <4AF717DD.4090600@leemhuis.info> <4AF8295D.7080600@leemhuis.info> Message-ID: <20091110082204.GE5774@victoria.internal.frields.org> On Mon, Nov 09, 2009 at 02:21:22PM -0600, inode0 wrote: > One question about the question collection process that I need to know > before sending out an announcement is where are those going to be > collected? Will the page here > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Elections/Questionnaire > > be "reset" to begin the current cycle as a collection point for the > new questions? That makes sense -- just erase it and start over. The history will cover the older content. If that's not sufficient, simply move the existing page to a more reflective name and start over. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From stickster at gmail.com Tue Nov 10 08:25:03 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 18:25:03 +1000 Subject: F13 Naming: Leonidas -> Constantine -> ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20091110082503.GF5774@victoria.internal.frields.org> On Mon, Nov 09, 2009 at 08:05:02PM -0600, inode0 wrote: > With Fedora 12 just a few days from release it is time to begin the > naming process for the next Fedora release. > > Contributors can make suggestions for the name for Fedora 13 by visiting > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Name_suggestions_for_Fedora_13 > > and following the instructions. > > Remember there needs to be an "is-a" link between the name Constantine > and the name you suggest and this link must be different than all > previous links used to connect Fedora release names. > > Full details of the release naming schedule are available on the above > link but please note than the period for gathering suggestions begins > now and runs through November 16. > > So there isn't a lot of time, think up some good names, and get them > added to the wiki. The Board and I will be looking for the most creative and unusual names. I've already gone over the current list of suggestions once, with the goal of not saving all the vetting work for later. I'd encourage everyone to try and find not only unusual links and names, but also to make sure we have a way of linking out too! :-) -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From inode0 at gmail.com Tue Nov 10 15:42:42 2009 From: inode0 at gmail.com (inode0) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 09:42:42 -0600 Subject: Nominations now open for December Fedora Elections Message-ID: It is time to begin the process of nominating candidates for the open seats in the following bodies: * Fedora Project Board * Fedora Ambassadors Steering Committee (FAmSCo) * Fedora Engineering Steering Committee (FESCo) General Election Schedule: * November 10-16: Nominations are open. * November 17-23: Candidate questionnaires. * November 27 - December 3: IRC Town Hall-style discussions with candidates for the various elected positions will be arranged. * December 8-15: The elections will take place. Nominations You may self-nominate. If you wish to nominate someone else, please consult with that person ahead of time. Wiki nomination pages [1] carry additional details about the nominee which the nominee is expected to write. Simply update the respective wiki page with your nomination information. Please thoughtfully consider how you can best contribute to Fedora by serving on one of these important committees or by encouraging someone you know who you think can make a difference to serve. [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Elections Thanks, John From jeff at ocjtech.us Tue Nov 10 15:45:48 2009 From: jeff at ocjtech.us (Jeffrey Ollie) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 09:45:48 -0600 Subject: F13 Naming: Leonidas -> Constantine -> ? In-Reply-To: <20091110082503.GF5774@victoria.internal.frields.org> References: <20091110082503.GF5774@victoria.internal.frields.org> Message-ID: <935ead450911100745i7cc2ec7bi2fe07bcf201d47bc@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 2:25 AM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > The Board and I will be looking for the most creative and unusual > names. ?I've already gone over the current list of suggestions once, > with the goal of not saving all the vetting work for later. ?I'd > encourage everyone to try and find not only unusual links and names, > but also to make sure we have a way of linking out too! :-) It occurred to me that it would be useful to have a wiki page that listed all of the names that were rejected "for cause" - i.e. ones that have trademark issues or have too many negative connotations. Names that just weren't popular enough wouldn't be included. It might help save some time in the future... -- Jeff Ollie From inode0 at gmail.com Tue Nov 10 15:42:42 2009 From: inode0 at gmail.com (inode0) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 09:42:42 -0600 Subject: Nominations now open for December Fedora Elections Message-ID: It is time to begin the process of nominating candidates for the open seats in the following bodies: * Fedora Project Board * Fedora Ambassadors Steering Committee (FAmSCo) * Fedora Engineering Steering Committee (FESCo) General Election Schedule: * November 10-16: Nominations are open. * November 17-23: Candidate questionnaires. * November 27 - December 3: IRC Town Hall-style discussions with candidates for the various elected positions will be arranged. * December 8-15: The elections will take place. Nominations You may self-nominate. If you wish to nominate someone else, please consult with that person ahead of time. Wiki nomination pages [1] carry additional details about the nominee which the nominee is expected to write. Simply update the respective wiki page with your nomination information. Please thoughtfully consider how you can best contribute to Fedora by serving on one of these important committees or by encouraging someone you know who you think can make a difference to serve. [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Elections Thanks, John -- fedora-announce-list mailing list fedora-announce-list at redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-announce-list From jwboyer at gmail.com Tue Nov 10 17:29:44 2009 From: jwboyer at gmail.com (Josh Boyer) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 12:29:44 -0500 Subject: F13 Naming: Leonidas -> Constantine -> ? In-Reply-To: <935ead450911100745i7cc2ec7bi2fe07bcf201d47bc@mail.gmail.com> References: <20091110082503.GF5774@victoria.internal.frields.org> <935ead450911100745i7cc2ec7bi2fe07bcf201d47bc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091110172944.GB5699@hansolo.jdub.homelinux.org> On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 09:45:48AM -0600, Jeffrey Ollie wrote: >On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 2:25 AM, Paul W. Frields wrote: >> >> The Board and I will be looking for the most creative and unusual >> names. ?I've already gone over the current list of suggestions once, >> with the goal of not saving all the vetting work for later. ?I'd >> encourage everyone to try and find not only unusual links and names, >> but also to make sure we have a way of linking out too! :-) > >It occurred to me that it would be useful to have a wiki page that >listed all of the names that were rejected "for cause" - i.e. ones >that have trademark issues or have too many negative connotations. >Names that just weren't popular enough wouldn't be included. It might >help save some time in the future... The wiki pages for the past couple of releases should have that info in them. josh From poelstra at redhat.com Tue Nov 10 23:40:40 2009 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 15:40:40 -0800 Subject: User Profiles Message-ID: <4AF9F9F8.5040400@redhat.com> From last week's board meeting (2009-11-05)... * ACTION: poelcat and stickster to gear up FAB thread, getting experienced UI/design people to help with user profiling ------------------------------------------------------- I'm starting this thread (with Paul's help) and looking for help and a more concrete methodology for building user profiles. Creating user profiles is part of the project the board is helping to lead around who Fedora's target audience is. Normally an organization would commission a market study to help identify it's target audience. These studies require expertise, time, and money... all of which are in short supply to us now. With that in mind we are attempting to reach the same place, but with a less scientific approach. I took information from the the 2009-10-29 board meeting to start a wiki page: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_Profiles This page obviously needs a lot more work and I'm wondering if we could get some help from the desktop and design team to know how to be best represent these profiles and build them out. Thanks, John From fedora at leemhuis.info Wed Nov 11 21:30:24 2009 From: fedora at leemhuis.info (Thorsten Leemhuis) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 22:30:24 +0100 Subject: What questions would you like to ask the Candidates for the Fedora Board, FESCo, and FAMSCO? Message-ID: <4AFB2CF0.10303@leemhuis.info> Hi! As you may have heard already, several seats of the Fedora Board, FESCo, and FAMSCO are up for election soon(?). Right now we are in the nomination period, which will be followed by a "Candidate Questionnaire." That means we'll give candidates a list of questions to answer by private mail within one week after the nomination period closed; the results will be publish soon after that to make sure they are available to the public before the Town Hall meetings on IRC happen. Candidates may choose to answer (or not) those questions as they see fit. Voters can use the answers to get an impression of what the candidate think or plan to do while serving for the committees they are nominated for. That should help to get a interesting discussion running during the IRC Town Hall meetings; furthermore, those people that can't or don't want to participate in the IRC meetings can use the answers to make a more informed vote. Hence we need to prepare a few good questions that we can send to the candidates once the nomination period ends. And that's where I need *your help* now: If you have one or more questions you'd like to send to the candidates simply go and add them to: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Elections/F13_Questionnaire It just takes a minute or two, so best to do it right now -- otherwise you might get distracted and forget about it. ;-) I'll take care of the remaining work to review, sort, and clean up the questions(?); after that I'll send them to the candidates soon after the nomination period ended. Hence, I need your question suggestions by around the 15th November 17:00 UTC latest to get a chance to prepare everything in time. So please go to the wiki now and add at least one hard question! The answers will help Fedora contributors to chose whom to vote for! Thanks in advance for your help . CU knurd (?) If you haven't read about it yet see https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Elections for details. (?) If you want to get involved or review the questions before I send them please drop me a line and I'll try to get that arranged; maybe we can arrange a quick, informal IRC meeting on Sunday evening if there is interest From stickster at gmail.com Fri Nov 13 18:37:50 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 10:37:50 -0800 Subject: Community domain request From April 2009 In-Reply-To: <3161376e0911120849n73f2145eie65b2ad0ada97fba@mail.gmail.com> References: <3161376e0911120849n73f2145eie65b2ad0ada97fba@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091113183750.GK4044@victoria.internal.frields.org> On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 05:49:05PM +0100, Frederic Hornain wrote: > Dear *, > > Following the request I did in April for [1]be.fedoraproject.org - I know > it is quite a long time -, the fedora-advisory-board and you requested us > - Vincent Van der Kussen, Bert and I - ( > [2]https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2009-April/msg00004.html) > to give you more details about : > > [3]be.fedoraproject.org -> IP address :? 195.207.18.42 > > > The team that will maintain the site, and their current role(s) > ?? Vincent Van der Kussen, Bert and I. - Fedora Ambassadors - > ?? Vincent would be in charge of the Web server as it is own. > > > What application will be available at the site ( static pages? Blogroll > ? etc.) > ?? Mostly static pages > > - Why we need a Belgian Fedora website : > > Belgian coverage of Fedora is low, (most) people have the idea that Fedora > is the old Red Hat system. > > - Purpose of the website > ??? > ??? - Give people a place to find Belgian information (redirect to Dutch > items on the Official Fedora wiki.) > ??? - Give Ambassadors a place to get together. > ??? - Reviews of Belgian Fedora activity. > ??? - Fedora Belgium is no substitute for the Fedora Wiki concerning > information ( small items must be possible) > ??? - Get more people to start using Fedora, so maybe some of these people > might even start contributing. > ??? - Central place for extra info of Belgian events. > > This website doesn't need to be a big thing, some basic information for > interested people and links to Fedora related information on the internet. > > Thanks for you time and your efforts. > > BTW, thank to Vincent for this argumentations. > > Best Regards > Frederic Thank you for the update Frederic. We should be able to establish the "be.fedoracommunity.org" domain, as previously agreed, based on the information provided here. Note the domain name, which we had communicated about previously. Once I get the consensus "yes" from the Board, which should happen very quickly, I'll file the ticket with Infrastructure with this request. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From fhornain at gmail.com Thu Nov 12 16:49:05 2009 From: fhornain at gmail.com (Frederic Hornain) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:49:05 +0100 Subject: Community domain request From April 2009 Message-ID: <3161376e0911120849n73f2145eie65b2ad0ada97fba@mail.gmail.com> Dear *, Following the request I did in April for be.fedoraproject.org - I know it is quite a long time -, the fedora-advisory-board and you requested us - Vincent Van der Kussen, Bert and I - ( https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2009-April/msg00004.html) to give you more details about : be.fedoraproject.org -> IP address : 195.207.18.42 > The team that will maintain the site, and their current role(s) Vincent Van der Kussen, Bert and I. - Fedora Ambassadors - Vincent would be in charge of the Web server as it is own. > What application will be available at the site ( static pages? Blogroll ? etc.) Mostly static pages - Why we need a Belgian Fedora website : Belgian coverage of Fedora is low, (most) people have the idea that Fedora is the old Red Hat system. - Purpose of the website - Give people a place to find Belgian information (redirect to Dutch items on the Official Fedora wiki.) - Give Ambassadors a place to get together. - Reviews of Belgian Fedora activity. - Fedora Belgium is no substitute for the Fedora Wiki concerning information ( small items must be possible) - Get more people to start using Fedora, so maybe some of these people might even start contributing. - Central place for extra info of Belgian events. This website doesn't need to be a big thing, some basic information for interested people and links to Fedora related information on the internet. Thanks for you time and your efforts. BTW, thank to Vincent for this argumentations. Best Regards Frederic -- ----------------------------------------------------- Fedora-ambassadors-list mailing list Fedora-ambassadors-list at redhat.com Olpc mailing list olpc-open at laptop.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fedora at leemhuis.info Mon Nov 16 16:58:13 2009 From: fedora at leemhuis.info (Thorsten Leemhuis) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 17:58:13 +0100 Subject: What questions would you like to ask the Candidates for the Fedora Board, FESCo, and FAMSCO? In-Reply-To: <4AFBAAF6.5090508@leemhuis.info> References: <4AFBAAF6.5090508@leemhuis.info> Message-ID: <4B0184A5.1040106@leemhuis.info> Hi! Sorry, I haven't got around to work on the final version of the questions yet. I plan to do that early tomorrow, which leaves everybody still something like 13 hours to add questions to the wiki. CU knurd Thorsten Leemhuis wrote on 12.11.2009 07:28: > > As you may have heard already, several seats of the Fedora Board, FESCo, > and FAMSCO are up for election soon(?). Right now we are in the > nomination period, which will be followed by a "Candidate > Questionnaire." That means we'll give candidates a list of questions to > answer by private mail within one week after the nomination period > closed; the results will be publish soon after that to make sure they > are available to the public before the Town Hall meetings on IRC happen. > > Candidates may choose to answer (or not) those questions as they see > fit. Voters can use the answers to get an impression of what the > candidate think or plan to do while serving for the committees they are > nominated for. That should help to get a interesting discussion running > during the IRC Town Hall meetings; furthermore, those people that can't > or don't want to participate in the IRC meetings can use the answers to > make a more informed vote. > > Hence we need to prepare a few good questions that we can send to the > candidates once the nomination period ends. And that's where I need > *your help* now: > > If you have one or more questions you'd like to send to the candidates > simply go and add them to: > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Elections/F13_Questionnaire > > It just takes a minute or two, so best to do it right now -- otherwise > you might get distracted and forget about it. ;-) > > I'll take care of the remaining work to review, sort, and clean up the > questions(?); after that I'll send them to the candidates soon after the > nomination period ended. Hence, I need your question suggestions by > around the 15th November 17:00 UTC latest to get a chance to prepare > everything in time. > > So please go to the wiki now and add at least one hard question! The > answers will help Fedora contributors to chose whom to vote for! Thanks > in advance for your help . > > CU > knurd > > (?) If you haven't read about it yet see > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Elections for details. > > (?) If you want to get involved or review the questions before I send > them please drop me a line and I'll try to get that arranged; maybe we > can arrange a quick, informal IRC meeting on Sunday evening if there is > interest From mairin at linuxgrrl.com Mon Nov 16 22:55:09 2009 From: mairin at linuxgrrl.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn?= Duffy) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 17:55:09 -0500 Subject: User Profiles In-Reply-To: <4AF9F9F8.5040400@redhat.com> References: <4AF9F9F8.5040400@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1258412109.5514.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2009-11-10 at 15:40 -0800, John Poelstra wrote: > From last week's board meeting (2009-11-05)... > > * ACTION: poelcat and stickster to gear up FAB thread, getting > experienced UI/design people to help with user profiling > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > I'm starting this thread (with Paul's help) and looking for help and a > more concrete methodology for building user profiles. Creating user > profiles is part of the project the board is helping to lead around who > Fedora's target audience is. Normally an organization would commission > a market study to help identify it's target audience. These studies > require expertise, time, and money... all of which are in short supply > to us now. With that in mind we are attempting to reach the same place, > but with a less scientific approach. > > I took information from the the 2009-10-29 board meeting to start a wiki > page: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_Profiles > > This page obviously needs a lot more work and I'm wondering if we could > get some help from the desktop and design team to know how to be best > represent these profiles and build them out. I have a lot to say about this but haven't had the time yet. Now that the stork's got F12 in his little swaddling cloth, I will have more time to write down my thoughts on this. So, just a lame little note here to let you know I'm gonna be chiming in :) ~m From fedora at leemhuis.info Tue Nov 17 06:54:17 2009 From: fedora at leemhuis.info (Thorsten Leemhuis) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 07:54:17 +0100 Subject: What questions would you like to ask the Candidates for the Fedora Board, FESCo, and FAMSCO? In-Reply-To: <4AFB2CF0.10303@leemhuis.info> References: <4AFB2CF0.10303@leemhuis.info> Message-ID: <4B024899.60707@leemhuis.info> Thorsten Leemhuis wrote on 11.11.2009 22:30: > > As you may have heard already, several seats of the Fedora Board, FESCo, > and FAMSCO are up for election soon(?). Right now we are in the > nomination period, which will be followed by a "Candidate > Questionnaire." That means we'll give candidates a list of questions to > answer by private mail within one week after the nomination period > closed; the results will be publish soon after that to make sure they > are available to the public before the Town Hall meetings on IRC happen. > [...] > If you have one or more questions you'd like to send to the candidates > simply go and add them to: > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Elections/F13_Questionnaire I did some cleanups and added a few more question from the last questionnaire. Find below what I plan to sent to the candidates this evening at something like 19:00 UTC. If you dislike something please comment until then in a way to make sure we don't further delay things (yes, I know, that is a tight schedule, but I thought a RFC period of 12 hours is better then none). tia! CU knurd === Main questions === # What is ''The Fedora Project'' to you? # What do you consider to be Fedora's [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raison_d%27%C3%AAtre raison d'etre]? # Where do you see the project in one years? # Where do you see the project in two years? # Do you see a long-term goal or a "target audience" Fedora should strive for? # What part of the Fedora project would you change, given total power to do so? # Please name three things you plan to work on and realize while being on the Committee you run for! # How would you measure your success as an elected member? # What are your unique strengths and what are your weaknesses? ==== Committee specific questions: Board ==== # Suppose a user/contributor brings up an issue that bothers an important fraction of Fedora community and he proposes a change in the default behavior of Fedora; but either you don't have personal interest in that area, or (as a user) the issue doesn't bother you. How would you approach the problem? ==== Committee specific questions: FAmSCo ==== # What would you be doing to ensure that as a body FAmSCo is communicating more with its constituents ? # What things should be done to promote Fedora in countries where there is little or no Fedora presence, and how you see FAmSCo can support those initiatives? # Do you see any shortcomings in the mentoring overall process? What do you want to change in that process? ==== Committee specific questions: FESCo ==== # Do you feel that a Fedora release should have a more conservative update policy than rawhide, and if so what types of updates do you feel are acceptable to a stable Fedora release? # Suppose a user/contributor brings up an issue that bothers an important fraction of Fedora community and he proposes a change in the default behavior of Fedora; but either you don't have personal interest in that area, or (as a user) the issue doesn't bother you. How would you approach the problem? === More questions === # Why are you a member of the Fedora project? # Please mention if you are running for re-election or not. Further: If you are running for re-election, what are the things that you promised but could not do? Why so? What are you planning to prevent a recurrence? If you are running for the first time, in your opinion, what are the things that the previous committee could do but couldn't/didn't? # What is the most important part of the Fedora the distribution? (IE, Desktop, FEL, AOS) # From your perspective what is it that Fedora brings to linux distros that is unique and original? What sets Fedora apart? From fedora at leemhuis.info Tue Nov 17 19:47:24 2009 From: fedora at leemhuis.info (Thorsten Leemhuis) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 20:47:24 +0100 Subject: Questions sent (was: What questions would you like to ask the Candidates for the Fedora Board, FESCo, and FAMSCO?) In-Reply-To: <4B024899.60707@leemhuis.info> References: <4AFB2CF0.10303@leemhuis.info> <4B024899.60707@leemhuis.info> Message-ID: <4B02FDCC.8050508@leemhuis.info> On 17.11.2009 07:54, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > Thorsten Leemhuis wrote on 11.11.2009 22:30: >> >> As you may have heard already, several seats of the Fedora Board, >> FESCo, and FAMSCO are up for election soon(?). Right now we are in >> the nomination period, which will be followed by a "Candidate >> Questionnaire." That means we'll give candidates a list of >> questions to answer by private mail within one week after the >> nomination period closed; the results will be publish soon after >> that to make sure they are available to the public before the Town >> Hall meetings on IRC happen. [...] If you have one or more >> questions you'd like to send to the candidates simply go and add >> them to: >> >> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Elections/F13_Questionnaire > > I did some cleanups and added a few more question from the last > questionnaire. Find below what I plan to sent to the candidates this > evening at something like 19:00 UTC. If you dislike something please > comment until then in a way to make sure we don't further delay > things (yes, I know, that is a tight schedule, but I thought a RFC > period of 12 hours is better then none). tia! Nobody yelled, so I sent the questions to the people that are running in the elections by mail to the address from FAS. If you are one of those that are running and didn't get my mail please let me know asap. Deadline for answers: 20091124-06:00 UTC (the easier to remember date variant: have them finished by next Monday before midnight). I'll soon afterwards will try compile some documents that allow easy comparison of the answers. Cu knurd From stickster at gmail.com Wed Nov 18 19:09:31 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 14:09:31 -0500 Subject: Community domain request From April 2009 In-Reply-To: <3161376e0911120849n73f2145eie65b2ad0ada97fba@mail.gmail.com> References: <3161376e0911120849n73f2145eie65b2ad0ada97fba@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20091118190931.GV3052@victoria.internal.frields.org> On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 05:49:05PM +0100, Frederic Hornain wrote: > Dear *, > > Following the request I did in April for [1]be.fedoraproject.org - I know > it is quite a long time -, the fedora-advisory-board and you requested us > - Vincent Van der Kussen, Bert and I - ( > [2]https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2009-April/msg00004.html) > to give you more details about : > > [3]be.fedoraproject.org -> IP address :? 195.207.18.42 > > > The team that will maintain the site, and their current role(s) > ?? Vincent Van der Kussen, Bert and I. - Fedora Ambassadors - > ?? Vincent would be in charge of the Web server as it is own. > > > What application will be available at the site ( static pages? Blogroll > ? etc.) > ?? Mostly static pages > > - Why we need a Belgian Fedora website : > > Belgian coverage of Fedora is low, (most) people have the idea that Fedora > is the old Red Hat system. > > - Purpose of the website > ??? > ??? - Give people a place to find Belgian information (redirect to Dutch > items on the Official Fedora wiki.) > ??? - Give Ambassadors a place to get together. > ??? - Reviews of Belgian Fedora activity. > ??? - Fedora Belgium is no substitute for the Fedora Wiki concerning > information ( small items must be possible) > ??? - Get more people to start using Fedora, so maybe some of these people > might even start contributing. > ??? - Central place for extra info of Belgian events. > > This website doesn't need to be a big thing, some basic information for > interested people and links to Fedora related information on the internet. > > Thanks for you time and your efforts. > > BTW, thank to Vincent for this argumentations. Frederic, According to the Infrastructure ticket[1], this work has been completed. Thanks for your time and contributions improving the Fedora community! * * * [1] https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/1818 -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From poelstra at redhat.com Wed Nov 18 22:57:02 2009 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 14:57:02 -0800 Subject: Status of the Free Media Program Message-ID: <4B047BBE.6070602@redhat.com> Hi Free Media Leaders, I ended up on some of the Free Media program pages yesterday as I followed some of the release links from http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora At first I thought the program had ended (as in permanently terminated) because the pages I ended up said the program was closed. This led me raise this as an issue the board should get status on. Then Paul Frields told me privately that the program is very much alive and suggested sending my questions to a wider audience who might be interested and able to respond here. 1) What is the state of the Free Media program and how is it going? 2) Do you think the wiki page and the form are getting people to the right place effectively and giving them the right information? I was little confused when I ended up at https://fedoraproject.org/freemedia/FreeMedia-form.html and it said "Fedora Free Media form is now CLOSED" but there was no mention of when it would open and there are 90 different people to contact in my country :-/ Do we really want random people emailing a random ambassador? I also wondered if it was a good idea to be pointing people to something they can't have or even request on our main "Day of Release" page: http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora ? 3) Realizing that all the people giving their time and money to the Free Media program are doing this out of their own resources (which I think is amazing), do the Free Media project leaders feel that free media is getting to the right people--people that can't get it any other way? 4) Lastly, how can the board help drive more participation and involvement in the great work that you do in the Free Media program? Thanks for all that you do! John From inode0 at gmail.com Thu Nov 19 01:03:51 2009 From: inode0 at gmail.com (inode0) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 19:03:51 -0600 Subject: Status of the Free Media Program In-Reply-To: <4B047BBE.6070602@redhat.com> References: <4B047BBE.6070602@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 4:57 PM, John Poelstra wrote: > Hi Free Media Leaders, I'm not a FreeMedia leader but this program is close to my heart and I have strong feelings about it so I'll share my perspective of it with you. > I ended up on some of the Free Media program pages yesterday as I followed > some of the release links from > http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora > > At first I thought the program had ended (as in permanently terminated) > because the pages I ended up said the program was closed. ?This led me raise > this as an issue the board should get status on. ?Then Paul Frields told me > privately that the program is very much alive and suggested sending my > questions to a wider audience who might be interested and able to respond > here. You are not the first to think that the FreeMedia program had closed up shop. I encounter that on a regular but infrequent basis. > 1) What is the state of the Free Media program and how is it going? We do the best we can filling requests but it is just a fact of life that we get overwhelmed if we leave the request form open for very long. So it pops up early each month and is closed when we have so many requests we can't handle them all. It normally is only open for a few days. Can we improve in this regard? I think we can but currently we are a bit limited by the fact that all contributors can't contribute everywhere in the world. So when one location is overwhelmed we stop even when other locations could handle more requests. We are working on ways to fix this issue now so that going forward we can keep the form (or some regional form) open as long as the contributors involved can keep up. > 2) Do you think the wiki page and the form are getting people to the right > place effectively and giving them the right information? ?I was little > confused when I ended up at > https://fedoraproject.org/freemedia/FreeMedia-form.html and it said "Fedora > Free Media form is now CLOSED" but there was no mention of when it would > open and there are 90 different people to contact in my country :-/ ?Do we > really want random people emailing a random ambassador? No, we don't want anyone contacting ambassadors directly for FreeMedia, at least I don't. The closed version of the form used to suggest trying back again early in the next month and I think it still should. There are other areas in the world where direct contact of ambassadors for getting media is more agreeable. I think it is important to remember that only a small number of ambassadors are FreeMedia contributors. There is no direct connection between the two programs. Everyone is welcome to be a FreeMedia contributor. If you have a DVD/CD burner and are willing to share a couple of pieces of media each month with others please join us! > I also wondered if it was a good idea to be pointing people to something > they can't have or even request on our main "Day of Release" page: > http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora ? Probably not. > 3) Realizing that all the people giving their time and money to the Free > Media program are doing this out of their own resources (which I think is > amazing), do the Free Media project leaders feel that free media is getting > to the right people--people that can't get it any other way? Mostly I do. Not very many people are so lazy they would request I burn one and mail it to them if they could easily get it any other way (speaking from a North American perspective). A few probably think it is like a different media program where you get nice fancy pressed media, but I don't think there is a lot of that happening. > 4) Lastly, how can the board help drive more participation and involvement > in the great work that you do in the Free Media program? I think we need to solve a structural problem (how to manage the request pipeline regionally) before we need to attract more contributors. In North America new contributors can get bored quickly because others fill the requests before they try, and they feel like they aren't needed and move on to other things. So I really want eager new contributors to be greeted by open requests that they can fill. That doesn't really give any clue about how the board can help. But if you know anyone who would like to help design/implement a more useful interface to the program we'd love to meet them. John From foss.mailinglists at gmail.com Thu Nov 19 01:17:13 2009 From: foss.mailinglists at gmail.com (sankarshan) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 06:47:13 +0530 Subject: Status of the Free Media Program In-Reply-To: <4B047BBE.6070602@redhat.com> References: <4B047BBE.6070602@redhat.com> Message-ID: <35586fc00911181717v34b76caey29f056838ecb9837@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 4:27 AM, John Poelstra wrote: > Hi Free Media Leaders, > > I ended up on some of the Free Media program pages yesterday as I followed > some of the release links from > http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora > > At first I thought the program had ended (as in permanently terminated) > because the pages I ended up said the program was closed. ?This led me raise > this as an issue the board should get status on. ?Then Paul Frields told me > privately that the program is very much alive and suggested sending my > questions to a wider audience who might be interested and able to respond > here. I am not a Free Media Leader, and, without providing direct responses to the queries is a run down of how things were during April. Since then we have produced media in bulk to offset the issue of folks not receiving media. There are certain approaches that I noted on the blog post that seems to be working for India. -- sankarshan mukhopadhyay Sent from Pune, MH, India From thinklinux.ssh at gmail.com Thu Nov 19 02:35:58 2009 From: thinklinux.ssh at gmail.com (susmit shannigrahi) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 08:05:58 +0530 Subject: Status of the Free Media Program In-Reply-To: <4B047BBE.6070602@redhat.com> References: <4B047BBE.6070602@redhat.com> Message-ID: Hi, > At first I thought the program had ended (as in permanently terminated) > because the pages I ended up said the program was closed. ?This led me raise > this as an issue the board should get status on. ?Then Paul Frields told me > privately that the program is very much alive and suggested sending my > questions to a wider audience who might be interested and able to respond > here. > > 1) What is the state of the Free Media program and how is it going? It is going great. :) > 2) Do you think the wiki page and the form are getting people to the right > place effectively and giving them the right information? ?I was little > confused when I ended up at > https://fedoraproject.org/freemedia/FreeMedia-form.html and it said "Fedora > Free Media form is now CLOSED" but there was no mention of when it would > open and there are 90 different people to contact in my country :-/ ?Do we > really want random people emailing a random ambassador? Please note, the page talks about getting availability information from ambassadors, not disks. An ambassador knows where the events are etc.But this is only a temporary solution. I am working on getting an app ready for integrating the whole distribution thing and the mockup is here http://susmit.fedorapeople.org/freemedia/output.pdf. This will be worked on at foss.in (12 days from now) and I hope to solve it once and for all. > I also wondered if it was a good idea to be pointing people to something > they can't have or even request on our main "Day of Release" page: > http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora ? It is not, but the cycle is different. Freemedia opens at the beginning of each month and this does not coincide with release. > 3) Realizing that all the people giving their time and money to the Free > Media program are doing this out of their own resources (which I think is > amazing), do the Free Media project leaders feel that free media is getting > to the right people--people that can't get it any other way? The app I talked about can solve this problem to some extend. If required, we sometime challenge some requests for verification, but given the volume of the requests, we can not do it for each and every request. We have to trust people to some extend, no other way and no way to be cent percent sure about the media reaching right people or not. > 4) Lastly, how can the board help drive more participation and involvement > in the great work that you do in the Free Media program? Yes, thanks for bringing this up. My initial though was to integrate freemedia with ambassadors project and get it under FAmSCo. On a second thought, I think we can do well with a elected body for exclusively distribution. Entry into ambassadors group is no longer low-barrier and those who want to send only two dvds/month need not go through all the formalities of it. But notwithstanding the ease of job, we need dedicated people who can take care of the freemedia and distribution process, get new vendors and contributors signed up, work with LUGs and magazines to carry fedora and work on other things to ensure availability. In short, I am thinking of an elected body to take care of distribution process. Also, we have started receiving donations[1]once again and I have requested Max to take charge of the donations (only if he agrees). An elected body will be able to decide on the best way to spend the donations. However, I am yet to take this discussion to the freemedia list, and once that is done anf if the proposal is agreed upon, we can come up with a formal proposal to the board. This we will talk about in details after getting the app ready. [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Distribution/FreeMedia/Donation#Donation_History Thanks. -- Regards, Susmit. ============================================= http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/user:susmit ============================================= From thinklinux.ssh at gmail.com Thu Nov 19 02:57:26 2009 From: thinklinux.ssh at gmail.com (susmit shannigrahi) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 08:27:26 +0530 Subject: Status of the Free Media Program In-Reply-To: References: <4B047BBE.6070602@redhat.com> Message-ID: > But notwithstanding the ease of job, we need dedicated people who can > take care of the freemedia and distribution process One thing I need to clarify. This is not to mean the current contributors are not dedicated enough. By "dedicated" I meant whose "job" is to lead distribution process. Neville and Frank is doing a *GREAT* work with freemedia's administrative as well as other activities. Without their help, we did not stand any chance of turning around. And so are other contributors. The only goal of my proposal is to easy their burden and to ensure we are doing well in all regions. -- Regards, Susmit. ============================================= http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/user:susmit ============================================= Sent from Calcutta, WB, India From lolar7997 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 19 06:28:41 2009 From: lolar7997 at yahoo.com (Storm's Flower Shop) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 22:28:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sata Drivers Message-ID: <191958.67161.qm@web30205.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Sata Drivers are the downfall for fedora 11 and fedora 12. Who use IDE drivers any more? They are going away. looks Like i'll be forced to use Open suse until Fedora has Sata drivers for the Nforce 750 From tcallawa at redhat.com Thu Nov 19 06:35:52 2009 From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom "spot" Callaway) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 01:35:52 -0500 Subject: Sata Drivers In-Reply-To: <191958.67161.qm@web30205.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <191958.67161.qm@web30205.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4B04E748.5050806@redhat.com> On 11/19/2009 01:28 AM, Storm's Flower Shop wrote: > Sata Drivers are the downfall for fedora 11 and fedora 12. Who use IDE drivers any more? They are going away. > > looks Like i'll be forced to use Open suse until Fedora has Sata drivers for the Nforce 750 This is only a little bit passive-aggressive. ;) Did you file a bugreport? Did you specify the type of computer you have? Did you mention what kernel & driver OpenSuse uses that works for you? Did you include a copy of the dmesg/boot.log showing the failure on Fedora 11 and/or 12? All of these things would have made a drive-by trolling to the wrong list into something infinitely more productive. We test on a lot of SATA systems, and we're not intentionally trying to cause the downfall of anyone or anything. Help us help you. :) ~spot From maxamillion at gmail.com Thu Nov 19 06:39:02 2009 From: maxamillion at gmail.com (Adam Miller) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 00:39:02 -0600 Subject: Sata Drivers In-Reply-To: <191958.67161.qm@web30205.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <191958.67161.qm@web30205.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Do you have a bug filed? -Adam (From Android - CM) On Nov 19, 2009 12:29 AM, "Storm's Flower Shop" wrote: Sata Drivers are the downfall for fedora 11 and fedora 12. Who use IDE drivers any more? They are going away. looks Like i'll be forced to use Open suse until Fedora has Sata drivers for the Nforce 750 _______________________________________________ fedora-advisory-board mailing list fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bbbush.yuan at gmail.com Thu Nov 19 13:00:32 2009 From: bbbush.yuan at gmail.com (Yuan Yijun) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 21:00:32 +0800 Subject: Status of the Free Media Program In-Reply-To: <4B047BBE.6070602@redhat.com> References: <4B047BBE.6070602@redhat.com> Message-ID: <76e72f800911190500j6126166fq8e69b6f6cac1c27d@mail.gmail.com> 2009/11/19 John Poelstra : > Hi Free Media Leaders, > > > 1) What is the state of the Free Media program and how is it going? > The use of Trac greatly simplified my work -- I always need to ping each recipient to get their exact post address as well as their phone number. The phone number is very important because without it, the media may get returned (because the post office cannot find the recipient). With a trac system I no longer need to send emails by hand. One problem with Trac is they no longer reply my email.. maybe they are scared by this advanced tool. Since susmit and inode0 are creating new rules for FreeMedia, I'll barely follow. My suggestion is as efficient as possible. Thus I don't want to send it to individuals -- and I haven't done that this year, only distributed some goodies at local events (release party, SFD and others). I got no indication that these media I sent are valuable. Last year only very few people gives feedback. Most think I am one agent or sales of RH, do you believe that? If a new website is going to be designed, please add more steps to make sure they know who we are. > I also wondered if it was a good idea to be pointing people to something > they can't have or even request on our main "Day of Release" page: > http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora ? > I also sent email to tell them where to buy. It is fairly easy to buy a boxed version of Fedora 12 at either a book store or http://amazon.cn at a very reasonable price. Also there are sellers on Taobao (like eBay) who offer Fedora discs -- these sellers can get a better discount from ems system while I cannot. In one word: if one has a computer that you can install Fedora on it, then the price of Fedora is no longer a concern. So just point them to some faster and more reliable way. One possible enhancement is to allow pre-sale, selling other items related to Fedora, or find a sponsor and distribute with AD. The cost is too much for anyone who want to make AD though.. Another dream is if 1GB SD card was as cheap as a CD, we could send SD card instead. -- bbbush ^_^ From bandolerojr91 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 19 13:53:19 2009 From: bandolerojr91 at yahoo.com (Jose Perez) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 05:53:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sata Drivers In-Reply-To: <191958.67161.qm@web30205.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <191958.67161.qm@web30205.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <382463.87936.qm@web44910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> i have fedora installed on my whole test lab and they are all SATA and ESATA servers/desktops. If you could please come into the IRC #fedora channel for further support, this is not the email group to be emailing these issues too. ________________________________ From: Storm's Flower Shop To: fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com Sent: Thu, November 19, 2009 1:28:41 AM Subject: Sata Drivers Sata Drivers are the downfall for fedora 11 and fedora 12. Who use IDE drivers any more? They are going away. looks Like i'll be forced to use Open suse until Fedora has Sata drivers for the Nforce 750 _______________________________________________ fedora-advisory-board mailing list fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From duffy at fedoraproject.org Thu Nov 19 20:06:27 2009 From: duffy at fedoraproject.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn?= Duffy) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 15:06:27 -0500 Subject: User Profiles In-Reply-To: <4AF9F9F8.5040400@redhat.com> References: <4AF9F9F8.5040400@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1258661187.3715.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2009-11-10 at 15:40 -0800, John Poelstra wrote: > I'm starting this thread (with Paul's help) and looking for help and a > more concrete methodology for building user profiles. Creating user > profiles is part of the project the board is helping to lead around who > Fedora's target audience is. Normally an organization would commission > a market study to help identify it's target audience. These studies > require expertise, time, and money... all of which are in short supply > to us now. With that in mind we are attempting to reach the same place, > but with a less scientific approach. > > I took information from the the 2009-10-29 board meeting to start a wiki > page: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_Profiles > > This page obviously needs a lot more work and I'm wondering if we could > get some help from the desktop and design team to know how to be best > represent these profiles and build them out. I think when you talk about defining a target audience and user profiles for a product, they need to be closely tied to the goals for the product. The goal of Fedora as defined by our mission statement [1] is: "To lead the advancement of free and open source software and content as a collaborative community. " * The Fedora Project always strives to lead, not follow. "* The Fedora Project consistently seeks to create, improve, and spread free/libre code and content. "* The Fedora Project succeeds through shared action on the part of many people throughout our community." If the chosen target audience and user profiles don't reflect that goal, then they won't help further it. Paul announced the Board's current working definition of Fedora's target audience in his 26 Oct 'Target audience' mail to this list [2]. I think this definition does a fine job of linking back to the goal of the project. That target audience definition with my inline comments on its relevancy to our goal is as follows: (1) Someone who is voluntarily switching to Linux Our strategy is not to force anyone to use Fedora. It's not going to come pre-installed on your computer. Maybe a better way of stating this point though is, "Someone who voluntarily wants to try another way of running their computer." It doesn't necessarily have to be Linux. The main point here should be, the target audience needs to be open to a change in how they use their computer. We are trying to lead the advancement of free software, and the folks most likely to switch to free software (advancing it through greater ubiquity) are those who are not afraid to undergo some change. (Let's make the change as painless as possible though!) (2) Someone who is familiar with computers, but is not necessarily a hacker or developer You have to have at least a vague notion of what an operating system is to understand what Fedora is. You shouldn't, however, have to be a hacker to be able to spread Fedora and free software (our goal). We want to spread free and open source software, and we won't spread it as far and wide as possible if we limit ourselves to catering to hackers and developers only. That is a very limiting audience when the goal is to 'spread free/libre code and content.' The body of folks interested in technology is substantially larger than our current sphere of influence. I interpret point #2 to mean that if you're familiar enough with computers to comfortably place an order with Amazon.com, you should be in our sights. (3) Someone who is likely to collaborate in some fashion when something's wrong with Fedora. This collaboration can be as simple as filing a bug report using abrt or posting a comment on a Fedora-related blog or news article. We want to advance free software as a collaborative community, so focusing on folks who are willing to collaborate, even just a little bit, to give back, is important to advance that goal. This is not to say we shouldn't work on tools such as abrt to make it easier for them to collaborate with us. Just that they need to be receptive to engaging with us. I think this statement could be further refined - you can collaborate when there isn't anything wrong with Fedora as well, by blogging about Fedora or talking about Fedora at a local LUG meeting or technology fair. (4) Someone who wants to use Fedora for general productivity, either using desktop applications or a Web browser. I think the web browser point is key here. To collaborate on content in the community, a browser is a must, and a good web browsing experience is key to easing the anxiety of migrating platforms - if I can get my webmail in Fedora just as (if not more) easily as I could in Windows or on OS X, I haven't had to give it up to migrate so there's less pain in the migration. I do think this is the weakest of the four target audience statements, though, because 'general productivity' is a bit nebulous/vague. But we can certainly flesh it out further, defining it more finely and prioritizing the finer points with user studies. I think to properly identify user profiles (and I think by user profiles we mean personas [3] ), we need to study folks who match the 4 target audience attributes above. I think the user profiles wiki page that John started [4] is a good first cut at further refining 'general productivity' in point 4 above. Rather than simply brainstorming what 'general productivity' means though, I think we should additionally distill what kinds of tasks it means by observing folks who fit the 4 points above. Since this message is already really long, I'm going to cut this here. Next I am going to make a post about our options on moving forward with a user research plan. ~m [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Overview [2] https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2009-October/msg00350.html [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personas [4] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_Profiles From mairin at linuxgrrl.com Thu Nov 19 21:03:52 2009 From: mairin at linuxgrrl.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn?= Duffy) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 16:03:52 -0500 Subject: User Profiles In-Reply-To: <1258661187.3715.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4AF9F9F8.5040400@redhat.com> <1258661187.3715.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1258664632.3715.99.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2009-11-19 at 15:06 -0500, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > Since this message is already really long, I'm going to cut this here. > Next I am going to make a post about our options on moving forward with > a user research plan. So first, to figure out which user research methods to use and the research deliverables we'll want to produce, I think we need to think about to what ends we would like to employ these personas. Here's my stab at it: - Personas will help us make informed design and policy decisions about the default configuration of software in Fedora itself. We need to consider these persona's needs and situations when making decisions about default application behavior in Fedora, and even the look & feel / appeal and style of the default artwork. - Personas will help us determine what tasks our target audience wants to accomplish with Fedora. This will help us figure out good default package selections for Fedora, and also to figure out, for a given task, which application is best suited to get the job done. - Personas will help us determine the timbre of our messaging in both marketing materials and our website in order to attract the very target audience we are hoping to gain. - Personas will help us streamline the main flows of the Fedora project - making it easier to download and install Fedora itself, making it easier to join Fedora as a contributor, and making it easy to get help with Fedora. - Release-engineering-wise, they can help us determine which updates are appropriate to be released when and the appropriate severity for them. E.g., it may be determined some sets of packages need to be under stricter guidelines than others based on the usage patterns we discover in our target audience. - Can you think of any other uses? I think the kinds of deliverables we are going to want to focus the research towards producing then could be along these lines: A) A task list. This is a simple list of the things people are using Fedora to do. To help in prioritization, indications of frequency and how widely practiced the tasks are across the user set should be given. Tasks should be goal-centric, not application-centric. E.g., 'Use firefox' is not a task. 'Create a logo design for my business card to send to the printers' is a task. The task should have a clear goal. B) Most frequently-used applications list (should include rich client / desktop apps AND web applications.) Mugshot used to have a tool that collected this data, and I think it's in gnome-shell now. Is there any way we could allow users to opt-in to this sort of application usage data collection? C) A list of peripherals used with Fedora and what task workflows they are a part of. (Downloading photos off of a digital camera to post on your recipe blog and email the link to grandpa, Plugging in a scanner to digitize old family photos and store them on a consumer NAS, filming a music video for a school project grabbing the video off the camera editing and uploading to youtube then emailing the teacher with the link, connecting the computer to a TV and watching the movie with the whole family, etc etc etc.) Some notion of how frequently the tasks are performed / how many users perform them will be important to prioritize efforts to streamline these workflows and produce guides / other content for the website and marketing materials to show users how to accomplish them with Fedora. D) Applications commonly installed post-Fedora install. Looking at the applications a user installs on top of Fedora, and the type of configuration they do on a machine beyond the defaults I think would help inform us where the default configuration / package set falls short, and/or how packages and configurations might be chunked together to make it easier to find them and get them installed. E) And of course, most importantly, a set of user personas extrapolated from all the data collected during research. Here are some user research methods I think we could employ to gather this kind of data. Some of them come from my set of IDEO method cards [1]: 1) An opt-in application usage collection mechanism as described in B above. 2) Maybe towards C and B, a listing of the Fedora-related bugzilla components in terms of frequency folks are filing bugs against them. The more bugs, perhaps the more visible problems are in those applications thus they might need to be prioritized more. 3) Surveys & Questionnaires - these are easy to do, although it would be nice if we had a survey system in our infrastructure to conduct these. 4) Personal Inventory - interview a handful of target audience members and ask them what objects related to their computer and computing lifestyle are most important to them and why. Produce a catalog of the items per interviewee. This will help us come up with a task list (A) and understand how Fedora might fit into our target audience's lives. 5) Be Your Customer - with the task list (A) we come up with, members of the Fedora project should walk through / enact performing those tasks on their own to understand all the issues that arise. Out of this a document listing out issues that need to be addressed in order to make the tasks easier to perform could be written and bugs filed as appropriate. 6) Scenarios - write up a character-rich story involving a made up user, who is clearly a member of the target audience, interacting with Fedora to provide context for how Fedora is used. 7) Behavioral Archeology - look for evidence of activity based on organization / placement of things. We could ask for people in our target audience to send in screenshots of their desktop and take note of what changes they made to their desktop. 8) Cultural probes - make 'camera journal kits' including a camera, notebook, and instructions and send it out to members of the target audience asking them to keep a photo journal of their experience with their computer over the course of some set time period. One way of doing this to help the participants remember to do it is to send them some signal at frequent intervals (phone, text message, email) and ask them to write down what they're doing on their computer as soon as they get it. 9) Fly on the wall - sit with members of the target audience for a few hours and simply observe how they interact with their computers without interfering with their activities. 10) Think-Aloud Protocol study - Similar to fly on the wall but more interactive - observe a member of the target audience interacting with the computer and take on a mentor/apprentice role with them - with you as the apprentice - and ask them to explain what they are doing as they do it. 11) Extreme User Interviews - pick a set of target audience members who are completely unfamiliar with Fedora and ask them to give it a try, writing up their experiences. More coming! ;-) ~m [1] http://www.ideo.com/work/item/method-cards/ From walters at verbum.org Thu Nov 19 21:16:56 2009 From: walters at verbum.org (Colin Walters) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 21:16:56 +0000 Subject: User Profiles In-Reply-To: <1258664632.3715.99.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4AF9F9F8.5040400@redhat.com> <1258661187.3715.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1258664632.3715.99.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: 2009/11/19 M?ir?n Duffy : > > B) Most frequently-used applications list (should include rich client / > desktop apps AND web applications.) Mugshot used to have a tool that > collected this data, and I think it's in gnome-shell now. It is, yep. It would be at least a few days of work to have this appear in GNOME 2 as well, but possible. > Is there any > way we could allow users to opt-in to this sort of application usage > data collection? I think changing the current firstboot smolt screen to be "Join Fedora Feedback" with an option set like: [ ] Send all automatic feedback to Fedora [ ] Send hardware profile (more information) [ ] Send application usage (more information) [ ] Send crash reports (more information) [ ] Send computer performance data (more information) [ ] Send ... The client parts of this are not too hard; the Fedora Infrastructure part is harder, last I talked with them about something like this they had a lot of concerns about storage space, etc. In the big picture all of infrastructure at the moment is contributor-scale and not user-scale, and that's a big leap even if we're saying the user is likely to be a contributor. From mairin at linuxgrrl.com Thu Nov 19 22:12:51 2009 From: mairin at linuxgrrl.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn?= Duffy) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:12:51 -0500 Subject: User Profiles In-Reply-To: <1258664632.3715.99.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4AF9F9F8.5040400@redhat.com> <1258661187.3715.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1258664632.3715.99.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1258668771.3715.103.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2009-11-19 at 16:03 -0500, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > More coming! ;-) Okay so I've taken a first stab at a user research plan for Fedora: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_Research_Plan Here's what I see as being the immediate next steps: - We need to select a representative for each of the stakeholder groups and perform the stakeholder interviews to start gathering research questions (https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_Research_Plan#Stakeholders) - We need to prioritize the research questions. - We need to decide which research questions we're going to try to answer first, and plan out what research methods to apply in order to try to answer them. - We need to plan a schedule for the research to occur under. Does anybody want to help conduct the stakeholder views, as the first next step? ~m From duffy at fedoraproject.org Thu Nov 19 22:14:50 2009 From: duffy at fedoraproject.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn?= Duffy) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:14:50 -0500 Subject: User Profiles In-Reply-To: References: <4AF9F9F8.5040400@redhat.com> <1258661187.3715.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1258664632.3715.99.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1258668890.3715.104.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2009-11-19 at 21:16 +0000, Colin Walters wrote: > The client parts of this are not too hard; the Fedora Infrastructure > part is harder, last I talked with them about something like this they > had a lot of concerns about storage space, etc. In the big picture > all of infrastructure at the moment is contributor-scale and not > user-scale, and that's a big leap even if we're saying the user is > likely to be a contributor. If scale is a problem, could we, rather than tying this into first boot, have some kind of email-based invitation system where only maybe 250 users get emails and are allowed to send data into the program? ~m From stickster at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 04:22:04 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 23:22:04 -0500 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2009-11-19 UTC 1700 Message-ID: <20091120042204.GO29686@victoria.internal.frields.org> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meeting:Board_meeting_2009-11-19 == Roll Call == * Present: Josh Boyer, Paul Frields, Bill Nottingham, Mike McGrath, John Poelstra, Matt Domsch, Chris Aillon, Tom "Spot" Callaway, Dennis Gilmore * Regrets: Dimitris Glezos == Last meeting == https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meeting:Board_meeting_2009-11-05 == Current issues == === Pending work === * Trademark licenses * Update proposal * Both on Paul's plate, delayed by other work, will handle ASAP * NEXT ACTIONS: ** Send TLAs to all the pending recipients noted on wiki and in Paul's email ** Put together update proposal, possibly based in part on Spot's previous work === FUDCon session setup === * Sessions board would like to participate in ** FUDCon + Board roundtable Q & A (incl. target audience preso if needed) *** Like monthly public IRC meeting *** Evening session? Hackfest session? ** Saturday: Update discipline intro (hopefully presenting ML ideation, not starting from scratch) *** More definitive policy around updates - schedule as a regular session in the barcamp ** Followup hackfest from update policy discussion ** Election town hall is separate * NEXT ACTIONS: ** Paul will pitch updates session at barcamp ** Dropping idea of Board and FESCo roundtable ** Matt to investigate viability and level of interest in an elections town hall at FUDCon == New business == === F12 release === * Limit to 5 minutes * Thanks/congrats * Acknowledge PackageKit issue, anything Board actionable? ** http://lwn.net/Articles/362592/ ** Need for security policy to guide large-scale decisions **# a policy for the default distribution offering **# a policy for spins ** Requires the Board to say, "Spins, you can change this as a rule." ** spot: if the board defines the user target--it has an obligation to define the security policy ** Agree to table for now * NEXT ACTIONS ** Revisit security policy after FESCo discusses PackageKit in their 2009-11-20 meeting ** Decide if there's a Board action, and if so, move forward with it === FreeMedia === https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2009-November/msg00035.html * Thread is public, anything to discuss here? * is there some way that we can fund shipping media to people to ship out to users ** John: if we fund this what would we not be funding? IOW what trade-off would we be making? *** Dennis: not fund there outbound postage, but provide them media so they can ship more at the same cost and give professional media not burnt and hand written. * NEXT ACTIONS: ** Continue discussion on fedora-advisory-board ** Follow-up === F13 naming === * Board members to indicate anything left that is unsuitable * Remainder goes to Legal for approval == Next meeting == * Proposed: Thu Dec 03 2009 - 1700 UTC/12:00pm US Eastern (public IRC) -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From mairin at linuxgrrl.com Fri Nov 20 20:24:22 2009 From: mairin at linuxgrrl.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn?= Duffy) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:24:22 -0500 Subject: User Profiles In-Reply-To: <1258668771.3715.103.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4AF9F9F8.5040400@redhat.com> <1258661187.3715.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1258664632.3715.99.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1258668771.3715.103.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1258748662.2190.80.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2009-11-19 at 17:12 -0500, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > Does anybody want to help conduct the stakeholder views, as the first > next step? So I am gonna run a hackfest on Tuesday to start hashing these out. Please come! http://mairin.wordpress.com/2009/11/20/want-to-learn-design-skills-want-to-help-fedora-fedora-interaction-design-hackfest-tuesday-24-nov/ ~m From stickster at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 20:37:25 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:37:25 -0500 Subject: User Profiles In-Reply-To: <1258661187.3715.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4AF9F9F8.5040400@redhat.com> <1258661187.3715.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20091120203725.GU4905@victoria.internal.frields.org> On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 03:06:27PM -0500, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > On Tue, 2009-11-10 at 15:40 -0800, John Poelstra wrote: > > I'm starting this thread (with Paul's help) and looking for help and a > > more concrete methodology for building user profiles. Creating user > > profiles is part of the project the board is helping to lead around who > > Fedora's target audience is. Normally an organization would commission > > a market study to help identify it's target audience. These studies > > require expertise, time, and money... all of which are in short supply > > to us now. With that in mind we are attempting to reach the same place, > > but with a less scientific approach. > > > > I took information from the the 2009-10-29 board meeting to start a wiki > > page: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_Profiles > > > > This page obviously needs a lot more work and I'm wondering if we could > > get some help from the desktop and design team to know how to be best > > represent these profiles and build them out. > > I think when you talk about defining a target audience and user profiles > for a product, they need to be closely tied to the goals for the > product. The goal of Fedora as defined by our mission statement [1] is: > > "To lead the advancement of free and open source software and content > as a collaborative community. > " * The Fedora Project always strives to lead, not follow. > "* The Fedora Project consistently seeks to create, improve, and > spread free/libre code and content. > "* The Fedora Project succeeds through shared action on the part of > many people throughout our community." > > If the chosen target audience and user profiles don't reflect that goal, > then they won't help further it. Right. And we need help describing these personas correctly, so I appreciate the time you put into these posts. Thanks for helping us keep the ball rolling! I'm going to bounce back some ideas below. As you read them, can you tell me what would be the best way to capture them in discreet bits that help with this profiling task? I don't know whether that means just bulletizing in notes on the wiki and figuring it out later, or stating them in some separate, well-understood way that's specific to user profiling. > Paul announced the Board's current working definition of Fedora's target > audience in his 26 Oct 'Target audience' mail to this list [2]. I think > this definition does a fine job of linking back to the goal of the > project. That target audience definition with my inline comments on its > relevancy to our goal is as follows: > > (1) Someone who is voluntarily switching to Linux > > Our strategy is not to force anyone to use Fedora. It's not going to > come pre-installed on your computer. Maybe a better way of stating this > point though is, "Someone who voluntarily wants to try another way of > running their computer." It doesn't necessarily have to be Linux. The > main point here should be, the target audience needs to be open to a > change in how they use their computer. We are trying to lead the > advancement of free software, and the folks most likely to switch to > free software (advancing it through greater ubiquity) are those who are > not afraid to undergo some change. (Let's make the change as painless as > possible though!) So you're saying this person (we should come up with a name!) is interested in "another way" generally, and not FOSS or Linux in particular. That sounds sensible to me, because it is possible for people to contribute who don't *yet* understand how FOSS works. We do want someone who is open-minded about it, because if she's not, she likely wouldn't spontaneously change. (And maybe wouldn't be interested in this other way in any case.) But yet, we're not looking to exclusively target tinkerers, "looking" to change their computers for arbitrary reasons. Would it make sense to describe *why* she wants to change? > (2) Someone who is familiar with computers, but is not necessarily a > hacker or developer > > You have to have at least a vague notion of what an operating system is > to understand what Fedora is. You shouldn't, however, have to be a > hacker to be able to spread Fedora and free software (our goal). We want > to spread free and open source software, and we won't spread it as far > and wide as possible if we limit ourselves to catering to hackers and > developers only. That is a very limiting audience when the goal is to > 'spread free/libre code and content.' The body of folks interested in > technology is substantially larger than our current sphere of influence. > I interpret point #2 to mean that if you're familiar enough with > computers to comfortably place an order with Amazon.com, you should be > in our sights. Here's what I was thinking about this point, and this may not be at odds at all. (I like your interpretation too.) This person by definition has to be someone who's comfortable with sticking a DVD into their system, and potentially writing over part or all of their hard disk. They'd need to understand the potential impact of an installation. I'm not saying that it's then OK to go nuts and surprise them, just that the person needs to be comfortable with the idea that they are going to perform an action on their computer, as part of installation, that many people don't do. (Well, more of them do it these days than should have to, but that's another story.) For example, Trent Reznor doesn't want to hack on his computer, he wants to make music. But he's certainly interested in spreading free/libre code and content, even if it's in service of just shaking up the norm. OK, maybe you don't buy that example because Trent's looking for music-making capabilities we can't yet provide. My point being someone like this is certainly not a developer but the ideas we put into practice in Fedora should sound appealing enough for Trent to say, "My music tracks are all backed up on that other disk over there, so they're safe, and if I hate this new thing, I'll just restore this system anyway." And yes, I understand that Live USB might invalidate part of this characteristic I'm describing. Is it possible to capture the characteristics for a persona using Live USB at the same time as we capture those for this other persona? Can they be the same? Do they need to be the same? > (3) Someone who is likely to collaborate in some fashion when > something's wrong with Fedora. > > This collaboration can be as simple as filing a bug report using abrt or > posting a comment on a Fedora-related blog or news article. We want to > advance free software as a collaborative community, so focusing on folks > who are willing to collaborate, even just a little bit, to give back, is > important to advance that goal. This is not to say we shouldn't work on > tools such as abrt to make it easier for them to collaborate with us. > Just that they need to be receptive to engaging with us. I think this > statement could be further refined - you can collaborate when there > isn't anything wrong with Fedora as well, by blogging about Fedora or > talking about Fedora at a local LUG meeting or technology fair. Good point indeed. In all the cases of Fedora you list above, I see that communication is the common point. What about something like this, that's less charged? (3) Someone who is willing and able to communicate about their experiences with Fedora. ...which captures the same idea, but is broad enough to capture a broad spectrum of activity, from bug reporting to Ambassadorial work. > (4) Someone who wants to use Fedora for general productivity, either > using desktop applications or a Web browser. > > I think the web browser point is key here. To collaborate on content in > the community, a browser is a must, and a good web browsing experience > is key to easing the anxiety of migrating platforms - if I can get my > webmail in Fedora just as (if not more) easily as I could in Windows or > on OS X, I haven't had to give it up to migrate so there's less pain in > the migration. I do think this is the weakest of the four target > audience statements, though, because 'general productivity' is a bit > nebulous/vague. But we can certainly flesh it out further, defining it > more finely and prioritizing the finer points with user studies. That's a very fair critique, and thanks for offering a way to refine this point. > I think to properly identify user profiles (and I think by user profiles > we mean personas [3] ), we need to study folks who match the 4 target > audience attributes above. I think the user profiles wiki page that John > started [4] is a good first cut at further refining 'general > productivity' in point 4 above. Rather than simply brainstorming what > 'general productivity' means though, I think we should additionally > distill what kinds of tasks it means by observing folks who fit the 4 > points above. > > Since this message is already really long, I'm going to cut this here. > Next I am going to make a post about our options on moving forward with > a user research plan. I'm off to read that one next! :-) -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From stickster at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 20:50:35 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:50:35 -0500 Subject: User Profiles In-Reply-To: <1258668890.3715.104.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4AF9F9F8.5040400@redhat.com> <1258661187.3715.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1258664632.3715.99.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1258668890.3715.104.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20091120205035.GV4905@victoria.internal.frields.org> On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 05:14:50PM -0500, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > On Thu, 2009-11-19 at 21:16 +0000, Colin Walters wrote: > > The client parts of this are not too hard; the Fedora Infrastructure > > part is harder, last I talked with them about something like this they > > had a lot of concerns about storage space, etc. In the big picture > > all of infrastructure at the moment is contributor-scale and not > > user-scale, and that's a big leap even if we're saying the user is > > likely to be a contributor. > > If scale is a problem, could we, rather than tying this into first boot, > have some kind of email-based invitation system where only maybe 250 > users get emails and are allowed to send data into the program? Am I right in thinking we'd want to randomize these in some way to ensure that we're not getting a selection of people that's too insular, beyond the obvious selector of saying "sure, I'll participate"? -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From mairin at linuxgrrl.com Fri Nov 20 20:58:57 2009 From: mairin at linuxgrrl.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn?= Duffy) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:58:57 -0500 Subject: User Profiles In-Reply-To: <20091120203725.GU4905@victoria.internal.frields.org> References: <4AF9F9F8.5040400@redhat.com> <1258661187.3715.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20091120203725.GU4905@victoria.internal.frields.org> Message-ID: <1258750737.2190.102.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2009-11-20 at 15:37 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote: > I'm going to bounce back some ideas below. As you read them, can you > tell me what would be the best way to capture them in discreet bits > that help with this profiling task? I don't know whether that means > just bulletizing in notes on the wiki and figuring it out later, or > stating them in some separate, well-understood way that's specific to > user profiling. > > > Paul announced the Board's current working definition of Fedora's target > > audience in his 26 Oct 'Target audience' mail to this list [2]. I think > > this definition does a fine job of linking back to the goal of the > > project. That target audience definition with my inline comments on its > > relevancy to our goal is as follows: > > > > (1) Someone who is voluntarily switching to Linux > > > > Our strategy is not to force anyone to use Fedora. It's not going to > > come pre-installed on your computer. Maybe a better way of stating this > > point though is, "Someone who voluntarily wants to try another way of > > running their computer." It doesn't necessarily have to be Linux. The > > main point here should be, the target audience needs to be open to a > > change in how they use their computer. We are trying to lead the > > advancement of free software, and the folks most likely to switch to > > free software (advancing it through greater ubiquity) are those who are > > not afraid to undergo some change. (Let's make the change as painless as > > possible though!) > > So you're saying this person (we should come up with a name!) is > interested in "another way" generally, and not FOSS or Linux in > particular. That sounds sensible to me, because it is possible for > people to contribute who don't *yet* understand how FOSS works. We do > want someone who is open-minded about it, because if she's not, she > likely wouldn't spontaneously change. (And maybe wouldn't be > interested in this other way in any case.) Well, it's not a specific person per se; it's going to be a characteristic shared by potentially multiple personas in the same target group. To be clear, we may well end up with 3-8 different personas to represent this target audience. And that's perfectly fine. :) > > But yet, we're not looking to exclusively target tinkerers, "looking" > to change their computers for arbitrary reasons. Would it make sense > to describe *why* she wants to change? Hmm... I think that is a good idea, to understand why they want to change. I'm not sure though if it's something that is dictated by the target audience definition, or something that we determine via user research. To be honest, I was thinking about the type of person who might read about Linux or some piece of free software on a site like lifehacker.com - and the implicit reasoning for change there is to make your life better / easier / simpler. So if we want to take a stab at a reason in the target audience definition, that's one potential one we could throw out htere. We may not need to decide on their reason for changing now, however. Remember our goal is to get our target audience to change to *us* - is it important to our goal why they want to change yet? Do we know enough about the reasons someone would want to change to determine which of the 'changers' we want to target to in order to meet our goals? Certainly, "Why would you consider changing your OS" might be a good high-level research question to pursue with a sampling of target audience members. > > I interpret point #2 to mean that if you're familiar enough with > > computers to comfortably place an order with Amazon.com, you should be > > in our sights. > > Here's what I was thinking about this point, and this may not be at > odds at all. (I like your interpretation too.) This person by > definition has to be someone who's comfortable with sticking a DVD > into their system, and potentially writing over part or all of their > hard disk. They'd need to understand the potential impact of an > installation. I'm not saying that it's then OK to go nuts and > surprise them, just that the person needs to be comfortable with the > idea that they are going to perform an action on their computer, as > part of installation, that many people don't do. (Well, more of them > do it these days than should have to, but that's another story.) For hard disk installation, it needs to be someone who has permission to write over the hard drive potentially, which means Sharon's 5th grade son George who uses her computer to do his homework on is probably not in the target audience. But when George gets his own computer upon entering high school, it's his to explore. So maybe we need to add to the definition that our target audience needs to exclusively own and control a desktop or laptop computer (since if they share their computer 'roommates' may not appreciate change :) ). If it's a shared computer, it really needs to be the primary computer owner / head of family making the changes. This is definitely an important refinement on the 'Amazon.com purchaser' interpretation. > For example, Trent Reznor doesn't want to hack on his computer, he > wants to make music. But he's certainly interested in spreading > free/libre code and content, even if it's in service of just shaking > up the norm. OK, maybe you don't buy that example because Trent's > looking for music-making capabilities we can't yet provide. My point > being someone like this is certainly not a developer but the ideas we > put into practice in Fedora should sound appealing enough for Trent to > say, "My music tracks are all backed up on that other disk over there, > so they're safe, and if I hate this new thing, I'll just restore this > system anyway." Absolutely. It seems like we're already fleshing out some inflection points to dictate specific within the target audience. A free/libre content creator who wants to make sure his content is not lost when he tries this new OS and also that he can work his content in the new OS. > > And yes, I understand that Live USB might invalidate part of this > characteristic I'm describing. Is it possible to capture the > characteristics for a persona using Live USB at the same time as we > capture those for this other persona? Can they be the same? Do they > need to be the same? Absolutely. This is an inflection point that could determine the boundary between two different personas in this target audience: - George who is a 5th grader who wants to play Tux Racer on a Fedora USB stick with his friends without getting in trouble with his Mom for erasing her hard drive. - Sharon who can't afford the $$$ Adobe Creative Suite but would like to install Fedora on the family computer for her artistically-inclined son to be able to try the many FOSS graphic design tools available. She obviously doesn't have to worry about 'getting in trouble' for installing Fedora. :) > > > (3) Someone who is likely to collaborate in some fashion when > > something's wrong with Fedora. > > > > This collaboration can be as simple as filing a bug report using abrt or > > posting a comment on a Fedora-related blog or news article. We want to > > advance free software as a collaborative community, so focusing on folks > > who are willing to collaborate, even just a little bit, to give back, is > > important to advance that goal. This is not to say we shouldn't work on > > tools such as abrt to make it easier for them to collaborate with us. > > Just that they need to be receptive to engaging with us. I think this > > statement could be further refined - you can collaborate when there > > isn't anything wrong with Fedora as well, by blogging about Fedora or > > talking about Fedora at a local LUG meeting or technology fair. > > Good point indeed. In all the cases of Fedora you list above, I see > that communication is the common point. What about something like > this, that's less charged? > > (3) Someone who is willing and able to communicate about their > experiences with Fedora. > > ...which captures the same idea, but is broad enough to capture a > broad spectrum of activity, from bug reporting to Ambassadorial work. I like this much better! Is it okay if I update it on the wiki? ~m From mairin at linuxgrrl.com Fri Nov 20 21:01:25 2009 From: mairin at linuxgrrl.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn?= Duffy) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 16:01:25 -0500 Subject: User Profiles In-Reply-To: <20091120205035.GV4905@victoria.internal.frields.org> References: <4AF9F9F8.5040400@redhat.com> <1258661187.3715.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1258664632.3715.99.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1258668890.3715.104.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20091120205035.GV4905@victoria.internal.frields.org> Message-ID: <1258750885.2190.104.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2009-11-20 at 15:50 -0500, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 05:14:50PM -0500, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > > On Thu, 2009-11-19 at 21:16 +0000, Colin Walters wrote: > > > The client parts of this are not too hard; the Fedora Infrastructure > > > part is harder, last I talked with them about something like this they > > > had a lot of concerns about storage space, etc. In the big picture > > > all of infrastructure at the moment is contributor-scale and not > > > user-scale, and that's a big leap even if we're saying the user is > > > likely to be a contributor. > > > > If scale is a problem, could we, rather than tying this into first boot, > > have some kind of email-based invitation system where only maybe 250 > > users get emails and are allowed to send data into the program? > > Am I right in thinking we'd want to randomize these in some way to > ensure that we're not getting a selection of people that's too > insular, beyond the obvious selector of saying "sure, I'll > participate"? Absolutely. The other thing is, though, if we're studying people using Fedora, we're going to be insular. We're not capturing the side of people in our target audience who aren't using Fedora. That's okay though, as long as we contextualize the data collected via this mechanism appropriately. In a perfect world, we'd be able to write clients that Windows and OS X users could install that would capture data too. But I don't know if we have the development (and legal?) resources to do that. ~m From stickster at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 22:23:58 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 17:23:58 -0500 Subject: User Profiles In-Reply-To: <1258664632.3715.99.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4AF9F9F8.5040400@redhat.com> <1258661187.3715.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1258664632.3715.99.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20091120222358.GW4905@victoria.internal.frields.org> On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 04:03:52PM -0500, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > On Thu, 2009-11-19 at 15:06 -0500, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > > Since this message is already really long, I'm going to cut this here. > > Next I am going to make a post about our options on moving forward with > > a user research plan. > > So first, to figure out which user research methods to use and the > research deliverables we'll want to produce, I think we need to think > about to what ends we would like to employ these personas. Here's my > stab at it: > > - Personas will help us make informed design and policy decisions about > the default configuration of software in Fedora itself. We need to > consider these persona's needs and situations when making decisions > about default application behavior in Fedora, and even the look & feel / > appeal and style of the default artwork. > > - Personas will help us determine what tasks our target audience wants > to accomplish with Fedora. This will help us figure out good default > package selections for Fedora, and also to figure out, for a given task, > which application is best suited to get the job done. > > - Personas will help us determine the timbre of our messaging in both > marketing materials and our website in order to attract the very target > audience we are hoping to gain. > > - Personas will help us streamline the main flows of the Fedora project > - making it easier to download and install Fedora itself, making it > easier to join Fedora as a contributor, and making it easy to get help > with Fedora. > > - Release-engineering-wise, they can help us determine which updates are > appropriate to be released when and the appropriate severity for them. > E.g., it may be determined some sets of packages need to be under > stricter guidelines than others based on the usage patterns we discover > in our target audience. > > - Can you think of any other uses? There might be implications for the test cases on which we concentrate for Fedora, and the content and prioritization of test days, given what I see below. Besides those ideas, this is a great summary of the goals I'd had in mind. > I think the kinds of deliverables we are going to want to focus the > research towards producing then could be along these lines: > > A) A task list. This is a simple list of the things people are using > Fedora to do. To help in prioritization, indications of frequency and > how widely practiced the tasks are across the user set should be given. > Tasks should be goal-centric, not application-centric. E.g., 'Use > firefox' is not a task. 'Create a logo design for my business card to > send to the printers' is a task. The task should have a clear goal. > > B) Most frequently-used applications list (should include rich client / > desktop apps AND web applications.) Mugshot used to have a tool that > collected this data, and I think it's in gnome-shell now. Is there any > way we could allow users to opt-in to this sort of application usage > data collection? > > C) A list of peripherals used with Fedora and what task workflows they > are a part of. (Downloading photos off of a digital camera to post on > your recipe blog and email the link to grandpa, Plugging in a scanner to > digitize old family photos and store them on a consumer NAS, filming a > music video for a school project grabbing the video off the camera > editing and uploading to youtube then emailing the teacher with the > link, connecting the computer to a TV and watching the movie with the > whole family, etc etc etc.) Some notion of how frequently the tasks are > performed / how many users perform them will be important to prioritize > efforts to streamline these workflows and produce guides / other content > for the website and marketing materials to show users how to accomplish > them with Fedora. > > D) Applications commonly installed post-Fedora install. Looking at the > applications a user installs on top of Fedora, and the type of > configuration they do on a machine beyond the defaults I think would > help inform us where the default configuration / package set falls > short, and/or how packages and configurations might be chunked together > to make it easier to find them and get them installed. > > E) And of course, most importantly, a set of user personas extrapolated > from all the data collected during research. > > Here are some user research methods I think we could employ to gather > this kind of data. Some of them come from my set of IDEO method cards > [1]: > > 1) An opt-in application usage collection mechanism as described in B > above. > > 2) Maybe towards C and B, a listing of the Fedora-related bugzilla > components in terms of frequency folks are filing bugs against them. The > more bugs, perhaps the more visible problems are in those applications > thus they might need to be prioritized more. That makes sense and would probably be pretty easy to gather. > 3) Surveys & Questionnaires - these are easy to do, although it would be > nice if we had a survey system in our infrastructure to conduct these. There is a polling mechanism packaged (I believe) for Zikula, the CMS that the Fedora Marketing team is working on at FUDCon Toronto 2009. Also, I believe Ian Weller or someone involved in the Marketing team had looked into packaging LimeSurvey, which is also 100% FOSS and thus eligible for Infrastructure. > 4) Personal Inventory - interview a handful of target audience members > and ask them what objects related to their computer and computing > lifestyle are most important to them and why. Produce a catalog of the > items per interviewee. This will help us come up with a task list (A) > and understand how Fedora might fit into our target audience's lives. How do we go about selecting these people? > 5) Be Your Customer - with the task list (A) we come up with, members of > the Fedora project should walk through / enact performing those tasks on > their own to understand all the issues that arise. Out of this a > document listing out issues that need to be addressed in order to make > the tasks easier to perform could be written and bugs filed as > appropriate. This is brilliant -- occasionally in rare moments of downtime I work through a procedure to see what it takes, and use that to file bugs myself, but hadn't made the contextual connection with the user profiling. In large part, this is also how the Desktop SIG worked on their "Fit and Finish" days to provide additional shine for Fedora 12. > 6) Scenarios - write up a character-rich story involving a made up user, > who is clearly a member of the target audience, interacting with Fedora > to provide context for how Fedora is used. > > 7) Behavioral Archeology - look for evidence of activity based on > organization / placement of things. We could ask for people in our > target audience to send in screenshots of their desktop and take note of > what changes they made to their desktop. > > 8) Cultural probes - make 'camera journal kits' including a camera, > notebook, and instructions and send it out to members of the target > audience asking them to keep a photo journal of their experience with > their computer over the course of some set time period. One way of doing > this to help the participants remember to do it is to send them some > signal at frequent intervals (phone, text message, email) and ask them > to write down what they're doing on their computer as soon as they get > it. > > 9) Fly on the wall - sit with members of the target audience for a few > hours and simply observe how they interact with their computers without > interfering with their activities. This is akin to a "sit bird-dog with a notepad" method? > 10) Think-Aloud Protocol study - Similar to fly on the wall but more > interactive - observe a member of the target audience interacting with > the computer and take on a mentor/apprentice role with them - with you > as the apprentice - and ask them to explain what they are doing as they > do it. Seems like this would be tough to do without role-reversing! But it would be fascinating to watch someone with the proper discipline do it. I could imagine a third person acting as coach to help people learn how to do this right. > 11) Extreme User Interviews - pick a set of target audience members who > are completely unfamiliar with Fedora and ask them to give it a try, > writing up their experiences. The SO test? -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From stickster at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 22:28:31 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 17:28:31 -0500 Subject: User Profiles In-Reply-To: <1258748662.2190.80.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4AF9F9F8.5040400@redhat.com> <1258661187.3715.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1258664632.3715.99.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1258668771.3715.103.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1258748662.2190.80.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20091120222831.GX4905@victoria.internal.frields.org> On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 03:24:22PM -0500, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > On Thu, 2009-11-19 at 17:12 -0500, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > > Does anybody want to help conduct the stakeholder views, as the first > > next step? > > So I am gonna run a hackfest on Tuesday to start hashing these out. > Please come! > > http://mairin.wordpress.com/2009/11/20/want-to-learn-design-skills-want-to-help-fedora-fedora-interaction-design-hackfest-tuesday-24-nov/ Brilliant! If I can break free for part or all of this time, I would love to participate in this -- at the very least I'll lurk and log. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From thinklinux.ssh at gmail.com Sat Nov 21 02:05:31 2009 From: thinklinux.ssh at gmail.com (susmit shannigrahi) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 07:35:31 +0530 Subject: Queries about Fedora 13 naming process. Message-ID: Hi, I was wondering after initial approval, how names are actually selected from the long list of suggestions. Is there a definite process? Yes or not, would it be possible to provide the reasons for rejection beside each name? At least from board's part? Also, there is at least one anomaly. Langstrom (Constantine is the last name of a character in comics, so as Langstrom) is approved by both board and legal while other names has been rejected for being from comic books and which is clearly written at the top of that page. Pardon me if the page is not final yet, but my questions remain all the same. -- Regards, Susmit. ============================================= http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/user:susmit ============================================= From stickster at gmail.com Sat Nov 21 16:25:51 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 11:25:51 -0500 Subject: Queries about Fedora 13 naming process. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20091121162551.GA22796@victoria.internal.frields.org> On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 07:35:31AM +0530, susmit shannigrahi wrote: > Hi, > > I was wondering after initial approval, how names are actually > selected from the long list of suggestions. Is there a definite > process? Yes or not, would it be possible to provide the reasons for > rejection beside each name? At least from board's part? We try to provide justification as often as possible during the initial phase, when names are moved to the rejection list for not meeting guidelines. Of the names not selected this time, the following reasons applied: * Two word names * Not meeting the "is-a" test precisely * Repetition (Greco-Roman era naming from the past two releases) * General unsuitability (first names, connotations, etc.) * Lack of creative linkages out for F14 names In some cases this did require a judgment call, and attaching that reason to a particular name suggestion could be discouraging to an individual contributor, which I'd prefer to avoid. We had a long list of names, some of which were very creative, submitted by the community. Shortening that list is a difficult task, but the resulting ballot is pretty diverse and a good reflection on the suggestions we received, so thanks to everyone who participated! The general guidelines for release names are found here: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Guidelines_for_release_names > Also, there is at least one anomaly. Langstrom (Constantine is the > last name of a character in comics, so as Langstrom) is approved by > both board and legal while other names has been rejected for being > from comic books and which is clearly written at the top of that page. The notice says that comic book linkages "will likely be rejected," but not that they will *automatically* be rejected. The Board members found this particular name acceptable for the ballot. -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From inode0 at gmail.com Sat Nov 21 17:18:22 2009 From: inode0 at gmail.com (inode0) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 11:18:22 -0600 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2009-11-19 UTC 1700 In-Reply-To: <20091120042204.GO29686@victoria.internal.frields.org> References: <20091120042204.GO29686@victoria.internal.frields.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 10:22 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > === FreeMedia === > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2009-November/msg00035.html > * Thread is public, anything to discuss here? > * is there some way that we can fund shipping media to people to ship > out to users > ** John: if we fund this what would we not be funding? IOW what > trade-off would we be making? > *** Dennis: not fund there outbound postage, but provide them media so > they can ship more at the same cost and give professional media not > burnt and hand written. > * NEXT ACTIONS: > ** Continue discussion on fedora-advisory-board > ** Follow-up I'd like to make a couple of comments about Fedora funding the FreeMedia program. I was violently against this in the past for reasons I have explained elsewhere (discussions on the FreeMedia mailing list) but I have softened a bit. First I would like to note that Fedora has in the past and continues to help the FreeMedia program financially although it has been done more in a hit and miss fashion I think than as a regular funding item. For the F10 and F11 releases, for example, I have had leftover pressed media on hand and during the final FreeMedia period I have sent out fairly large numbers of these to people requesting images through the FreeMedia program and this cost is being covered by Fedora (both the cost of pressed media and the cost of the shipping). We don't want to waste pressed media and this seems to us to be a valuable way use it when it is available. We don't order pressed media with this use in mind however. The two common suggestions for Fedora helping have serious limitations due to the logistics involved in worldwide distribution being performed by many people. Consider providing pressed media but leaving the contributors to cover postage. Postage is fairly expensive for some contributors, most only send a small number each month (we ask contributors to try to send at least two pieces of media, some do more but typically it is probably a single digit number). So, how would we ship very small numbers of pressed media to hundreds of FreeMedia contributors around the world so they in turn could send them to people local in their regions? This is a logistical nightmare and probably not worth the cost and effort in the end (at least I don't see how it could be worth the cost involved). And of course there are delays getting the pressed media and further delays shipping it around so valuable time is also lost doing this. The second common suggestion is for Fedora to let the FreeMedia contributors continue buying their own supplies and doing the work the way they do now but reimburse their reasonable expenses. This has the same logistical problem. How to efficiently and without sending Max to the nearest high bridge would we ever arrange such small reimbursements to so many people so frequently? Looking at it with the logistical limitations in mind we could try picking one or two people in various regions to provide direct help to. I think that help would need to be in both ways though, pressed media and postage. We can't ask someone to self-fund $100 a month in postage. (Some do that but we can't ask them to on a regular basis.) My general fear about doing this is that it will fundamentally change the character of the program. Will volunteers continue to contribute at their own expense when that guy over there is doing it and Fedora is paying for it? Maybe I'm cynical, but I think that would inevitably hurt the morale of the volunteers. So here is what I would suggest at this point in time if the board would like to try to help fund some part of the FreeMedia project as an experiment. We tend to have inordinately large numbers of requests from certain regions (these are large because of need in those regions). I think we should work with Susmit to see if there is a way to provide some direct help to a small number of contributors in India to help with the volume of requests in that region. I think we could learn a lot by doing that and help where the problem is the most severe today. John From inode0 at gmail.com Sat Nov 21 17:50:45 2009 From: inode0 at gmail.com (inode0) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 11:50:45 -0600 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2009-11-19 UTC 1700 In-Reply-To: <20091120042204.GO29686@victoria.internal.frields.org> References: <20091120042204.GO29686@victoria.internal.frields.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 10:22 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > === FUDCon session setup === > * Sessions ?board would like to participate in > ** FUDCon + Board roundtable Q & A (incl. target audience preso if > needed) > *** Like monthly public IRC meeting > *** Evening session? Hackfest session? > ** Saturday: Update discipline intro (hopefully presenting ML > ideation, not starting from scratch) > *** More definitive policy around updates - schedule as a regular > session in the barcamp > ** Followup hackfest from update policy discussion > ** Election town hall is separate > * NEXT ACTIONS: > ** Paul will pitch updates session at barcamp > ** Dropping idea of Board and FESCo roundtable > ** Matt to investigate viability and level of interest in an elections > town hall at FUDCon We have decided not to have election town halls at FUDCon this year for various reasons including the number of candidates not attending FUDCon. John From stickster at gmail.com Mon Nov 23 13:15:15 2009 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 08:15:15 -0500 Subject: Names for F13 release Message-ID: <20091123131515.GE24839@victoria.internal.frields.org> Of the names submitted by the Board to Red Hat Legal for trademark clearance, the following names were approved: Botany Truro Manfredi Goddard Langstrom Gloriana Loana I'll ask Nigel Jones to set up the appropriate ballot in the Fedora election system. As shown on the wiki page, voting will take place from November 28 to December 4: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Name_suggestions_for_Fedora_13 -- Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug From poelstra at redhat.com Mon Nov 23 23:58:26 2009 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 15:58:26 -0800 Subject: User Profiles In-Reply-To: <1258748662.2190.80.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4AF9F9F8.5040400@redhat.com> <1258661187.3715.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1258664632.3715.99.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1258668771.3715.103.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1258748662.2190.80.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4B0B21A2.5030207@redhat.com> On 11/20/2009 12:24 PM, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > On Thu, 2009-11-19 at 17:12 -0500, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: >> Does anybody want to help conduct the stakeholder views, as the first >> next step? > > So I am gonna run a hackfest on Tuesday to start hashing these out. > Please come! > > http://mairin.wordpress.com/2009/11/20/want-to-learn-design-skills-want-to-help-fedora-fedora-interaction-design-hackfest-tuesday-24-nov/ > > ~m Yes, I want to help. I will be there tomorrow, but will be 30 minutes late. Thanks for all you are doing to help us move forward on this issue! John From poelstra at redhat.com Tue Nov 24 00:12:37 2009 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 16:12:37 -0800 Subject: Fedora Board Recap 2009-11-19 UTC 1700 In-Reply-To: References: <20091120042204.GO29686@victoria.internal.frields.org> Message-ID: <4B0B24F5.7050305@redhat.com> On 11/21/2009 09:18 AM, inode0 wrote: > So here is what I would suggest at this point in time if the board > would like to try to help fund some part of the FreeMedia project as > an experiment. We tend to have inordinately large numbers of requests > from certain regions (these are large because of need in those > regions). I think we should work with Susmit to see if there is a way > to provide some direct help to a small number of contributors in India > to help with the volume of requests in that region. I think we could > learn a lot by doing that and help where the problem is the most > severe today. > Can you be more specific about how the board would fund the FreeMedia project as an experiment? --How much funding would the board need to provide for this experiment? --How many requests per month in Susmit's region do you receive? How many go unfilled each month? Thanks, John From poelstra at redhat.com Tue Nov 24 00:17:27 2009 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 16:17:27 -0800 Subject: Status of the Free Media Program In-Reply-To: References: <4B047BBE.6070602@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4B0B2617.8090904@redhat.com> On 11/18/2009 06:35 PM, susmit shannigrahi wrote: > Hi, > > >> At first I thought the program had ended (as in permanently terminated) >> because the pages I ended up said the program was closed. This led me raise >> this as an issue the board should get status on. Then Paul Frields told me >> privately that the program is very much alive and suggested sending my >> questions to a wider audience who might be interested and able to respond >> here. >> >> 1) What is the state of the Free Media program and how is it going? > > It is going great. :) > > >> 2) Do you think the wiki page and the form are getting people to the right >> place effectively and giving them the right information? I was little >> confused when I ended up at >> https://fedoraproject.org/freemedia/FreeMedia-form.html and it said "Fedora >> Free Media form is now CLOSED" but there was no mention of when it would >> open and there are 90 different people to contact in my country :-/ Do we >> really want random people emailing a random ambassador? > > Please note, the page talks about getting availability information > from ambassadors, not disks. An ambassador knows where the events are > etc.But this is only a temporary solution. > I am working on getting an app ready for integrating the whole > distribution thing and the mockup is here > http://susmit.fedorapeople.org/freemedia/output.pdf. This will be > worked on at foss.in (12 days from now) and I hope to solve it once > and for all. > > >> I also wondered if it was a good idea to be pointing people to something >> they can't have or even request on our main "Day of Release" page: >> http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora ? > > It is not, but the cycle is different. Freemedia opens at the > beginning of each month and this does not coincide with release. > Can we have a solution in place by the Fedora 13 Alpha release so that people have a better user experience downloading the Fedora 12 Release? I understand that you do not provide media for the test releases, but it is a natural milestone. >> 3) Realizing that all the people giving their time and money to the Free >> Media program are doing this out of their own resources (which I think is >> amazing), do the Free Media project leaders feel that free media is getting >> to the right people--people that can't get it any other way? > > The app I talked about can solve this problem to some extend. If > required, we sometime challenge some requests for verification, but > given the volume of the requests, we can not do it for each and every > request. We have to trust people to some extend, no other way and no > way to be cent percent sure about the media reaching right people or > not. > > >> 4) Lastly, how can the board help drive more participation and involvement >> in the great work that you do in the Free Media program? > > Yes, thanks for bringing this up. > > My initial though was to integrate freemedia with ambassadors project > and get it under FAmSCo. On a second thought, I think we can do well > with a elected body for exclusively distribution. Entry into > ambassadors group is no longer low-barrier and those who want to send > only two dvds/month need not go through all the formalities of it. > > But notwithstanding the ease of job, we need dedicated people who can > take care of the freemedia and distribution process, get new vendors > and contributors signed up, work with LUGs and magazines to carry > fedora and work on other things to ensure availability. In short, I am > thinking of an elected body to take care of distribution process. > Also, we have started receiving donations[1]once again and I have > requested Max to take charge of the donations (only if he agrees). An > elected body will be able to decide on the best way to spend the > donations. > > However, I am yet to take this discussion to the freemedia list, and > once that is done anf if the proposal is agreed upon, we can come up > with a formal proposal to the board. This we will talk about in > details after getting the app ready. > > [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Distribution/FreeMedia/Donation#Donation_History > > Thanks. > Thanks for all of your detailed information. I understand that right now the board cannot help you and that you will submit a proposal to the board once you have discussed with the team. Thank you, John From poelstra at redhat.com Tue Nov 24 00:56:37 2009 From: poelstra at redhat.com (John Poelstra) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 16:56:37 -0800 Subject: User Profiles In-Reply-To: <1258664632.3715.99.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4AF9F9F8.5040400@redhat.com> <1258661187.3715.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1258664632.3715.99.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4B0B2F45.9070205@redhat.com> On 11/19/2009 01:03 PM, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > On Thu, 2009-11-19 at 15:06 -0500, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: >> Since this message is already really long, I'm going to cut this here. >> Next I am going to make a post about our options on moving forward with >> a user research plan. > > So first, to figure out which user research methods to use and the > research deliverables we'll want to produce, I think we need to think > about to what ends we would like to employ these personas. Here's my > stab at it: > > - Personas will help us make informed design and policy decisions about > the default configuration of software in Fedora itself. We need to > consider these persona's needs and situations when making decisions > about default application behavior in Fedora, and even the look& feel / > appeal and style of the default artwork. > > - Personas will help us determine what tasks our target audience wants > to accomplish with Fedora. This will help us figure out good default > package selections for Fedora, and also to figure out, for a given task, > which application is best suited to get the job done. > > - Personas will help us determine the timbre of our messaging in both > marketing materials and our website in order to attract the very target > audience we are hoping to gain. > > - Personas will help us streamline the main flows of the Fedora project > - making it easier to download and install Fedora itself, making it > easier to join Fedora as a contributor, and making it easy to get help > with Fedora. > > - Release-engineering-wise, they can help us determine which updates are > appropriate to be released when and the appropriate severity for them. > E.g., it may be determined some sets of packages need to be under > stricter guidelines than others based on the usage patterns we discover > in our target audience. > > - Can you think of any other uses? > - Personas will help us focus our Test Days and QA time on applications and Fedora experience used by our Target Audience. John From thinklinux.ssh at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 07:41:00 2009 From: thinklinux.ssh at gmail.com (susmit shannigrahi) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 13:11:00 +0530 Subject: Status of the Free Media Program In-Reply-To: <4B0B2617.8090904@redhat.com> References: <4B047BBE.6070602@redhat.com> <4B0B2617.8090904@redhat.com> Message-ID: > Can we have a solution in place by the Fedora 13 Alpha release so that > people have a better user experience downloading the Fedora 12 Release? We shall probably have it much before that if everything goes as planned. > Thanks for all of your detailed information. I understand that right now the > board cannot help you and that you will submit a proposal to the board once > you have discussed with the team. Right. Thanks. -- Regards, Susmit. ============================================= http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/user:susmit ============================================= From fedora at leemhuis.info Tue Nov 24 07:44:03 2009 From: fedora at leemhuis.info (Thorsten Leemhuis) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 08:44:03 +0100 Subject: Candidate Questionnaire status (Was: Questions sent) In-Reply-To: <4B02FDCC.8050508@leemhuis.info> References: <4AFB2CF0.10303@leemhuis.info> <4B024899.60707@leemhuis.info> <4B02FDCC.8050508@leemhuis.info> Message-ID: <4B0B8EC3.9080403@leemhuis.info> Hi! Thorsten Leemhuis wrote on 17.11.2009 20:47: > On 17.11.2009 07:54, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: >> Thorsten Leemhuis wrote on 11.11.2009 22:30: >>> As you may have heard already, several seats of the Fedora >>> Board, FESCo, and FAMSCO are up for election soon(?). Right now >>> we are in the nomination period, which will be followed by a >>> "Candidate Questionnaire." [...] >> I did some cleanups and added a few more question from the last >> questionnaire. [...]> > Nobody yelled, so I sent the questions to the people that are running > in the elections by mail to the address from FAS. If you are one of > those that are running and didn't get my mail please let me know > asap. > > Deadline for answers: 20091124-06:00 UTC [...] Quick status update: I sent the questions to 23 people and 19 of them replied with the answers. I didn't get any replies to the questions (or my reminder mail from Sunday evening) from * Rodrigo Padula de Oliveira (RodrigoPadula) * Max Spevack (spevack) * Scott Seiersen (sseiersen) * Will Woods (wwoods) If that is due to my spam filters or something other stupid thing let me know asap. I hope to find time to work through the answers later today (in something like 12 hours from now) and publish them afterwards. CU knurd From mairin at linuxgrrl.com Tue Nov 24 23:15:49 2009 From: mairin at linuxgrrl.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn?= Duffy) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 18:15:49 -0500 Subject: User Profiles In-Reply-To: <1258748662.2190.80.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4AF9F9F8.5040400@redhat.com> <1258661187.3715.44.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1258664632.3715.99.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1258668771.3715.103.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1258748662.2190.80.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1259104549.11792.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2009-11-20 at 15:24 -0500, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > On Thu, 2009-11-19 at 17:12 -0500, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > > Does anybody want to help conduct the stakeholder views, as the first > > next step? > > So I am gonna run a hackfest on Tuesday to start hashing these out. > Please come! > > http://mairin.wordpress.com/2009/11/20/want-to-learn-design-skills-want-to-help-fedora-fedora-interaction-design-hackfest-tuesday-24-nov/ Here's my summary: http://mairin.wordpress.com/2009/11/24/fedora-interaction-design-hackfest-summary/ ~m From fedora at leemhuis.info Wed Nov 25 08:02:45 2009 From: fedora at leemhuis.info (Thorsten Leemhuis) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 09:02:45 +0100 Subject: Answers from the Candidate Questionnaire now in the Wiki (Was: Candidate Questionnaire status) In-Reply-To: <4B0B8EC3.9080403@leemhuis.info> References: <4AFB2CF0.10303@leemhuis.info> <4B024899.60707@leemhuis.info> <4B02FDCC.8050508@leemhuis.info> <4B0B8EC3.9080403@leemhuis.info> Message-ID: <4B0CE4A5.70201@leemhuis.info> Hi Me again ;-) Thorsten Leemhuis wrote on 24.11.2009 08:44: > Thorsten Leemhuis wrote on 17.11.2009 20:47: >> On 17.11.2009 07:54, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: >>> Thorsten Leemhuis wrote on 11.11.2009 22:30: >>>> As you may have heard already, several seats of the Fedora >>>> Board, FESCo, and FAMSCO are up for election soon(?). Right now >>>> we are in the nomination period, which will be followed by a >>>> "Candidate Questionnaire." [...] >> Deadline for answers: 20091124-06:00 UTC [...] > Quick status update: I sent the questions to 23 people and 19 of them > replied with the answers. I didn't get any replies to the questions (or > my reminder mail from Sunday evening) from > > * Rodrigo Padula de Oliveira (RodrigoPadula) > * Max Spevack (spevack) > * Scott Seiersen (sseiersen) > * Will Woods (wwoods) Max sent a apology, but the other remained silent afaics. > I hope to find time to work through the answers later today (in > something like 12 hours from now) and publish them afterwards. Compiled a wiki page with the answers and gave the nominees 12 hours to check the results. A few bugs were found and fixed, but I think everything is fine now. So the answers are now free for public consumption on this page: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Elections/F13_Questionnaire CU knurd P.S.: Just to make things clear 6 month early: next time somebody else has to handle the questionnaire. From christoph.wickert at googlemail.com Wed Nov 25 14:48:00 2009 From: christoph.wickert at googlemail.com (Christoph Wickert) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 15:48:00 +0100 Subject: Answers from the Candidate Questionnaire now in the Wiki (Was: Candidate Questionnaire status) In-Reply-To: <4B0CE4A5.70201@leemhuis.info> References: <4AFB2CF0.10303@leemhuis.info> <4B024899.60707@leemhuis.info> <4B02FDCC.8050508@leemhuis.info> <4B0B8EC3.9080403@leemhuis.info> <4B0CE4A5.70201@leemhuis.info> Message-ID: <1259160480.2654.69.camel@wicktop.localdomain> Am Mittwoch, den 25.11.2009, 09:02 +0100 schrieb Thorsten Leemhuis: > > So the answers are now free for public consumption on this page: > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Elections/F13_Questionnaire Hi Thorsten, one of my answers got lost although it was on your tmp page [1]. I have added it back. > CU > knurd [1] https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=ThorstenLeemhuis/tmp&oldid=138508#Suppose_a_user.2Fcontributor_brings_up_an_issue_that_bothers_an_important_fraction_of_Fedora_community_and_he_proposes_a_change_in_the_default_behavior_of_Fedora.3B_but_either_you_don.27t_have_personal_interest_in_that_area.2C_or_.28as_a_user.29_the_issue_doesn.27t_bother_you._How_would_you_approach_the_problem.3F_2 From inode0 at gmail.com Wed Nov 25 15:04:19 2009 From: inode0 at gmail.com (inode0) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 09:04:19 -0600 Subject: Answers from the Candidate Questionnaire now in the Wiki (Was: Candidate Questionnaire status) In-Reply-To: <4B0CE4A5.70201@leemhuis.info> References: <4AFB2CF0.10303@leemhuis.info> <4B024899.60707@leemhuis.info> <4B02FDCC.8050508@leemhuis.info> <4B0B8EC3.9080403@leemhuis.info> <4B0CE4A5.70201@leemhuis.info> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 2:02 AM, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > So the answers are now free for public consumption on this page: > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Elections/F13_Questionnaire > > CU > knurd > > P.S.: Just to make things clear 6 month early: next time somebody else > has to handle the questionnaire. knurd I just want to thank you again for all your work on this. I understand it is a burden to candidates and a lot of work for you to collect and organize the answers but it sure makes for some interesting reading. For those who don't personally know the candidates you have made a big contribution to the recent elections. John From notting at redhat.com Wed Nov 25 16:30:43 2009 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2009 11:30:43 -0500 Subject: Answers from the Candidate Questionnaire now in the Wiki (Was: Candidate Questionnaire status) In-Reply-To: References: <4AFB2CF0.10303@leemhuis.info> <4B024899.60707@leemhuis.info> <4B02FDCC.8050508@leemhuis.info> <4B0B8EC3.9080403@leemhuis.info> <4B0CE4A5.70201@leemhuis.info> Message-ID: <20091125163042.GE8863@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> inode0 (inode0 at gmail.com) said: > > So the answers are now free for public consumption on this page: > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Elections/F13_Questionnaire > > I just want to thank you again for all your work on this. I understand > it is a burden to candidates and a lot of work for you to collect and > organize the answers but it sure makes for some interesting reading. > For those who don't personally know the candidates you have made a big > contribution to the recent elections. Agreed; thanks for all the hard work here! Bill From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Nov 27 22:46:31 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 04:16:31 +0530 Subject: Fedora Remix and Adblock extension Message-ID: <4B1056C7.7080305@fedoraproject.org> Hi, If I include the Adblock extension by default in a Fedora Remix, would I be violating the Mozilla trademark license agreement? Just wanted to make sure before I do that. Reading http://www.mozilla.org/foundation/trademarks/policy.html, it seems that extensions by default is not allowed but I see other distributions doing that. In particular, Ubuntu has Ubufox (https://launchpad.net/ubufox) that offers a choice of flash plugins and recently, they experimented with a search modification as detailed in http://lwn.net/Articles/345945/ So, is this allowed or not? If it is not allowed, is there any other software in Fedora with similar constrains? Can this be documented in the Remix or Legal pages in the wiki? I think Fedora Board should look into this matter and hence I am posting it here. Rahul From matt at domsch.com Sun Nov 29 03:04:56 2009 From: matt at domsch.com (Matt Domsch) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 21:04:56 -0600 Subject: Fedora Remix and Adblock extension In-Reply-To: <4B1056C7.7080305@fedoraproject.org> References: <4B1056C7.7080305@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <20091129030456.GA10339@domsch.com> On Sat, Nov 28, 2009 at 04:16:31AM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi, > > If I include the Adblock extension by default in a Fedora Remix, would I > be violating the Mozilla trademark license agreement? Just wanted to > make sure before I do that. I'll start by saying that this isn't the place to argue Mozilla legal questions. > Reading http://www.mozilla.org/foundation/trademarks/policy.html, it > seems that extensions by default is not allowed Mozilla has a process by which you may request permission to do so. > but I see other distributions doing that. In particular, Ubuntu has > Ubufox (https://launchpad.net/ubufox) that offers a choice of flash > plugins and recently, they experimented with a search modification > as detailed in > > http://lwn.net/Articles/345945/ > It's possible that Canonical has requested permission from Mozilla to to do these things and still retain use of the Mozilla trademarks. >From my cursory reading of the Mozilla Trademark License Agreement, I'd think they would have had to do so. Red Hat and thus Fedora has permission to modify Firefox and Thunderbird (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraLegalIssues). > So, is this allowed or not? If it is not allowed, is there any other > software in Fedora with similar constrains? Can this be documented in > the Remix or Legal pages in the wiki? I think Fedora Board should look > into this matter and hence I am posting it here. Fedora's Licensing Guidelines call out strictures on copyright and patents, but not specifically on trademarks, on packages included in Fedora. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/LicensingGuidelines It's a fair question. It could also become an incredible timesink, so let's be sure we know what we want to get out of this before going to the lawyers for advice. Specific questions please. -Matt From baransels at gmail.com Sun Nov 29 07:58:21 2009 From: baransels at gmail.com (B.S.) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 09:58:21 +0200 Subject: Local community domain In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Greetings I'm planning to open a website about fedora in native language.I guess I have to sign TLA?How can I do this? Thanks -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sun Nov 29 12:45:24 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 18:15:24 +0530 Subject: Fedora Remix and Adblock extension In-Reply-To: <20091129030456.GA10339@domsch.com> References: <4B1056C7.7080305@fedoraproject.org> <20091129030456.GA10339@domsch.com> Message-ID: <4B126CE4.6080907@fedoraproject.org> On 11/29/2009 08:34 AM, Matt Domsch wrote: > On Sat, Nov 28, 2009 at 04:16:31AM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> Hi, >> >> If I include the Adblock extension by default in a Fedora Remix, would I >> be violating the Mozilla trademark license agreement? Just wanted to >> make sure before I do that. > > I'll start by saying that this isn't the place to argue Mozilla legal > questions. It is however the place to discuss Mozilla's trademark effects on Fedora. The adblock extension is packaged and available in Fedora and so is Firefox but it appears including them together is not permitted. Peculiar to say the least. > Red Hat and thus Fedora has permission to modify Firefox and > Thunderbird (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraLegalIssues). Is this permission transferred to Fedora Remixes? If not, again this seems unparalleled that Fedora Project would get a privilege for itself that downstream distributions cannot avail of. IMO, this goes against the nature of Fedora and Fedora Board should consider whether this is acceptable. > It's a fair question. It could also become an incredible timesink, so > let's be sure we know what we want to get out of this before going to > the lawyers for advice. Specific questions please. Hope the above clarifies what I wanted to convey. In summary, * Am I allowed to combine Firefox and one of its extensions by default in a Fedora Spin or Remix? * Does Board consider Fedora Project having a trademark exception that is not available for downstreams acceptable? * Is this kind of situation limited to Firefox? If so, why the special treatment? Rahul From inode0 at gmail.com Mon Nov 30 02:22:25 2009 From: inode0 at gmail.com (inode0) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 20:22:25 -0600 Subject: Fedora Project Board & FESCo Schedule for Election Town Hall Meetings Message-ID: Town hall meetings have now been scheduled for the Fedora Project Board and FESCo. The first Board meeting will be on Tuesday, December 1 at 0300 UTC. Please note that in North America this will be on the evening of Monday, November 30 at 10:00pm eastern. The second Board meeting will be Wednesday, December 2 at 1500 UTC. FESCo will have their town hall meetings on Tuesday, December 1 at 2200 UTC and Thursday, December 3 at 1800 UTC. Full details about the elections including town hall scheduling are available at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Elections To participate in any of the town hall meetings please join #fedora-townhall and #fedora-townhall-public on freenode at the scheduled time. Questions may be posed in the #fedora-townhall-public channel and the candidates will discuss your questions in #fedora-townhall. Hope to see many of you there. John From inode0 at gmail.com Mon Nov 30 03:35:39 2009 From: inode0 at gmail.com (inode0) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 21:35:39 -0600 Subject: Still looking for one town hall moderator Message-ID: We have the town hall meetings nearly in place now. The full schedule is available here: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Elections I'm really pleased with the volunteers for moderator duty this election but I do still need one more to cover the final FESCo town hall on Thursday, December 3 at 1800 UTC. So if you would like to volunteer or if you know someone you think would make an excellent moderator for this meeting please contact me. Thanks, John From tcallawa at redhat.com Mon Nov 30 15:45:59 2009 From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom "spot" Callaway) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 10:45:59 -0500 Subject: Fedora Remix and Adblock extension In-Reply-To: <4B126CE4.6080907@fedoraproject.org> References: <4B1056C7.7080305@fedoraproject.org> <20091129030456.GA10339@domsch.com> <4B126CE4.6080907@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <4B13E8B7.3010908@redhat.com> On 11/29/2009 07:45 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Is this permission transferred to Fedora Remixes? If not, again this > seems unparalleled that Fedora Project would get a privilege for itself > that downstream distributions cannot avail of. IMO, this goes against > the nature of Fedora and Fedora Board should consider whether this is > acceptable. Rahul, this is no different from the handling of the Fedora trademark. Remixers who wish to use the unmodified Firefox package can use Mozilla's trademark. Those who want to make changes (to embed adblock or any other package change), will need to talk to Mozilla to see if it is acceptable or not. ~spot From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Nov 30 18:51:17 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 00:21:17 +0530 Subject: Fedora Remix and Adblock extension In-Reply-To: <4B13E8B7.3010908@redhat.com> References: <4B1056C7.7080305@fedoraproject.org> <20091129030456.GA10339@domsch.com> <4B126CE4.6080907@fedoraproject.org> <4B13E8B7.3010908@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4B141425.6040404@fedoraproject.org> On 11/30/2009 09:15 PM, Tom "spot" Callaway wrote: > On 11/29/2009 07:45 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> Is this permission transferred to Fedora Remixes? If not, again this >> seems unparalleled that Fedora Project would get a privilege for itself >> that downstream distributions cannot avail of. IMO, this goes against >> the nature of Fedora and Fedora Board should consider whether this is >> acceptable. > > Rahul, this is no different from the handling of the Fedora trademark. > Remixers who wish to use the unmodified Firefox package can use > Mozilla's trademark. Those who want to make changes (to embed adblock or > any other package change), will need to talk to Mozilla to see if it is > acceptable or not. I don't really think its quite the same situation. I can't think of any other package that I can't combine with another package in Fedora without special permission from a third party. Besides Mozilla, can you cite a single instance where Fedora Project has special trademark agreements on modifications that is not inherited by downstreams? Rahul From tcallawa at redhat.com Mon Nov 30 18:53:16 2009 From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom "spot" Callaway) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 13:53:16 -0500 Subject: Fedora Remix and Adblock extension In-Reply-To: <4B141425.6040404@fedoraproject.org> References: <4B1056C7.7080305@fedoraproject.org> <20091129030456.GA10339@domsch.com> <4B126CE4.6080907@fedoraproject.org> <4B13E8B7.3010908@redhat.com> <4B141425.6040404@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <4B14149C.3040004@redhat.com> On 11/30/2009 01:51 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > I don't really think its quite the same situation. I can't think of any > other package that I can't combine with another package in Fedora > without special permission from a third party. Besides Mozilla, can you > cite a single instance where Fedora Project has special trademark > agreements on modifications that is not inherited by downstreams? It doesn't matter. Those are their rules to use their trademark. You don't have to like them, but you don't have to use their trademark to use/modify/redistribute their software. The act of bundling isn't prohibited by the copyright license here, you just lose the right to use their trademarks without getting their permission first. ~spot From notting at redhat.com Mon Nov 30 19:02:13 2009 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 14:02:13 -0500 Subject: Fedora Remix and Adblock extension In-Reply-To: <4B141425.6040404@fedoraproject.org> References: <4B1056C7.7080305@fedoraproject.org> <20091129030456.GA10339@domsch.com> <4B126CE4.6080907@fedoraproject.org> <4B13E8B7.3010908@redhat.com> <4B141425.6040404@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <20091130190213.GD15213@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Rahul Sundaram (sundaram at fedoraproject.org) said: > > Rahul, this is no different from the handling of the Fedora trademark. > > Remixers who wish to use the unmodified Firefox package can use > > Mozilla's trademark. Those who want to make changes (to embed adblock or > > any other package change), will need to talk to Mozilla to see if it is > > acceptable or not. > > I don't really think its quite the same situation. I can't think of any > other package that I can't combine with another package in Fedora > without special permission from a third party. Besides Mozilla, can you > cite a single instance where Fedora Project has special trademark > agreements on modifications that is not inherited by downstreams? It sounds like you're implicitly asking us to not agree to Mozilla's trademark agreements, and to go the Iceweasel route. We have decided in the past not to do this; I'm not sure why we'd change now. Bill From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Nov 30 19:07:42 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 00:37:42 +0530 Subject: Fedora Remix and Adblock extension In-Reply-To: <4B14149C.3040004@redhat.com> References: <4B1056C7.7080305@fedoraproject.org> <20091129030456.GA10339@domsch.com> <4B126CE4.6080907@fedoraproject.org> <4B13E8B7.3010908@redhat.com> <4B141425.6040404@fedoraproject.org> <4B14149C.3040004@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4B1417FE.7030006@fedoraproject.org> On 12/01/2009 12:23 AM, Tom "spot" Callaway wrote: > On 11/30/2009 01:51 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> I don't really think its quite the same situation. I can't think of any >> other package that I can't combine with another package in Fedora >> without special permission from a third party. Besides Mozilla, can you >> cite a single instance where Fedora Project has special trademark >> agreements on modifications that is not inherited by downstreams? > > It doesn't matter. It does matter to me. Otherwise I wouldn't ask. More below: Those are their rules to use their trademark. You > don't have to like them, but you don't have to use their trademark to > use/modify/redistribute their software. I am not sure, take it or leave are the only choices we have. Debian has a explicit rule against getting special permissions not available for downstreams and the rest of the free software community at clause 8 in DFSG at http://www.debian.org/social_contract Mozilla Firefox is the only exception that I am aware of in Fedora and the question for the Fedora Board (among others) is whether they consider it acceptable or not. The impact is essentially that I cannot combine two components as it is in Fedora. If the Fedora Board considers such special exceptions permissible, can we atleast get them documented in some place so I know I have to be extra careful about them in a remix? I don't think I can read trademark guidelines for all of the components in Fedora to determine such matters. Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Nov 30 19:17:44 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 00:47:44 +0530 Subject: Fedora Remix and Adblock extension In-Reply-To: <20091130190213.GD15213@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <4B1056C7.7080305@fedoraproject.org> <20091129030456.GA10339@domsch.com> <4B126CE4.6080907@fedoraproject.org> <4B13E8B7.3010908@redhat.com> <4B141425.6040404@fedoraproject.org> <20091130190213.GD15213@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <4B141A58.5080200@fedoraproject.org> On 12/01/2009 12:32 AM, Bill Nottingham wrote: > It sounds like you're implicitly asking us to not agree to Mozilla's > trademark agreements, and to go the Iceweasel route. We have decided > in the past not to do this; I'm not sure why we'd change now. I am asking the Fedora Board to reconsider the full impact of agreeing to Mozilla's trademark restrictions and whether it is in line with Fedora's stated goals. Renaming is one choice the Fedora Board has. Talking to Mozilla about it might be another. I think, at the minimum whatever permissions are granted to Fedora should be available for the entire Free software community and not be exclusive to Fedora. I think that matters whether or not it is copyright restictions (which we don't allow) or trademark restrictions (Firefox) or patent restrictions (Fluendo MP3 codec). Otherwise what stops us from including Fluendo MP3 codec by default in Fedora? I would be interested to hear the rationale that excludes one but not the other. Rahul From jkeating at redhat.com Mon Nov 30 19:27:31 2009 From: jkeating at redhat.com (Jesse Keating) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 11:27:31 -0800 Subject: Fedora Remix and Adblock extension In-Reply-To: <4B141425.6040404@fedoraproject.org> References: <4B1056C7.7080305@fedoraproject.org> <20091129030456.GA10339@domsch.com> <4B126CE4.6080907@fedoraproject.org> <4B13E8B7.3010908@redhat.com> <4B141425.6040404@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1259609251.2467.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2009-12-01 at 00:21 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > I don't really think its quite the same situation. I can't think of any > other package that I can't combine with another package in Fedora > without special permission from a third party. Besides Mozilla, can you > cite a single instance where Fedora Project has special trademark > agreements on modifications that is not inherited by downstreams? Wait a second here. We have the addblock extension packaged in Fedora right now? And we ship them combined in our "Everything" repo? And thus far, this is allowed for us to continue using the Firefox trademark? Are you going to do some modification to one of these packages in your remix that would change this status quo? -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom? is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Nov 30 19:32:36 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 01:02:36 +0530 Subject: Fedora Remix and Adblock extension In-Reply-To: <1259609251.2467.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4B1056C7.7080305@fedoraproject.org> <20091129030456.GA10339@domsch.com> <4B126CE4.6080907@fedoraproject.org> <4B13E8B7.3010908@redhat.com> <4B141425.6040404@fedoraproject.org> <1259609251.2467.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4B141DD4.3030906@fedoraproject.org> On 12/01/2009 12:57 AM, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Tue, 2009-12-01 at 00:21 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> >> I don't really think its quite the same situation. I can't think of any >> other package that I can't combine with another package in Fedora >> without special permission from a third party. Besides Mozilla, can you >> cite a single instance where Fedora Project has special trademark >> agreements on modifications that is not inherited by downstreams? > > Wait a second here. > > We have the addblock extension packaged in Fedora right now? And we > ship them combined in our "Everything" repo? And thus far, this is > allowed for us to continue using the Firefox trademark? Appears so. > Are you going to do some modification to one of these packages in your > remix that would change this status quo? No modifications. Just going to include Mozilla Firefox and the extension by default. Rahul From mmcgrath at redhat.com Mon Nov 30 19:52:01 2009 From: mmcgrath at redhat.com (Mike McGrath) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 13:52:01 -0600 (CST) Subject: Fedora Remix and Adblock extension In-Reply-To: <4B141DD4.3030906@fedoraproject.org> References: <4B1056C7.7080305@fedoraproject.org> <20091129030456.GA10339@domsch.com> <4B126CE4.6080907@fedoraproject.org> <4B13E8B7.3010908@redhat.com> <4B141425.6040404@fedoraproject.org> <1259609251.2467.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4B141DD4.3030906@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Dec 2009, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > On 12/01/2009 12:57 AM, Jesse Keating wrote: > > On Tue, 2009-12-01 at 00:21 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > >> > >> I don't really think its quite the same situation. I can't think of any > >> other package that I can't combine with another package in Fedora > >> without special permission from a third party. Besides Mozilla, can you > >> cite a single instance where Fedora Project has special trademark > >> agreements on modifications that is not inherited by downstreams? > > > > Wait a second here. > > > > We have the addblock extension packaged in Fedora right now? And we > > ship them combined in our "Everything" repo? And thus far, this is > > allowed for us to continue using the Firefox trademark? > > Appears so. > > > Are you going to do some modification to one of these packages in your > > remix that would change this status quo? > > No modifications. Just going to include Mozilla Firefox and the > extension by default. > "and the extension by default". You're talking, specifically, about a spin that has the mozilla-adblockplus rpm installed? That's it, no alteration of files of any kind? -Mike From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Nov 30 20:07:49 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 01:37:49 +0530 Subject: Fedora Remix and Adblock extension In-Reply-To: References: <4B1056C7.7080305@fedoraproject.org> <20091129030456.GA10339@domsch.com> <4B126CE4.6080907@fedoraproject.org> <4B13E8B7.3010908@redhat.com> <4B141425.6040404@fedoraproject.org> <1259609251.2467.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4B141DD4.3030906@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <4B142615.5010100@fedoraproject.org> On 12/01/2009 01:22 AM, Mike McGrath wrote: > > "and the extension by default". You're talking, specifically, about a > spin that has the mozilla-adblockplus rpm installed? That's it, no > alteration of files of any kind? Correct. Rahul From kanarip at kanarip.com Mon Nov 30 20:28:04 2009 From: kanarip at kanarip.com (Jeroen van Meeuwen) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 21:28:04 +0100 Subject: Fedora Remix and Adblock extension In-Reply-To: <4B142615.5010100@fedoraproject.org> References: <4B1056C7.7080305@fedoraproject.org> <20091129030456.GA10339@domsch.com> <4B126CE4.6080907@fedoraproject.org> <4B13E8B7.3010908@redhat.com> <4B141425.6040404@fedoraproject.org> <1259609251.2467.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4B141DD4.3030906@fedoraproject.org> <4B142615.5010100@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <4B142AD4.2090909@kanarip.com> On 11/30/2009 09:07 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > On 12/01/2009 01:22 AM, Mike McGrath wrote: > >> >> "and the extension by default". You're talking, specifically, about a >> spin that has the mozilla-adblockplus rpm installed? That's it, no >> alteration of files of any kind? > > Correct. > I don't see how this can be objectionable since installing the extension manually essentially does the very same thing. -- Jeroen From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Nov 30 20:35:53 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 02:05:53 +0530 Subject: Fedora Remix and Adblock extension In-Reply-To: <4B142AD4.2090909@kanarip.com> References: <4B1056C7.7080305@fedoraproject.org> <20091129030456.GA10339@domsch.com> <4B126CE4.6080907@fedoraproject.org> <4B13E8B7.3010908@redhat.com> <4B141425.6040404@fedoraproject.org> <1259609251.2467.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4B141DD4.3030906@fedoraproject.org> <4B142615.5010100@fedoraproject.org> <4B142AD4.2090909@kanarip.com> Message-ID: <4B142CA9.6060904@fedoraproject.org> On 12/01/2009 01:58 AM, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > On 11/30/2009 09:07 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> On 12/01/2009 01:22 AM, Mike McGrath wrote: >> >>> >>> "and the extension by default". You're talking, specifically, about a >>> spin that has the mozilla-adblockplus rpm installed? That's it, no >>> alteration of files of any kind? >> >> Correct. >> > > I don't see how this can be objectionable since installing the extension > manually essentially does the very same thing. The trademark guidelines from Mozilla seems to restrict it. http://www.mozilla.org/foundation/trademarks/policy.html "In addition, if you are distributing Mozilla binaries yourself, and wish to use the Mozilla Mark(s), you may not (a) disable, modify or otherwise interfere with any installation mechanism contained in a Mozilla product; (b) use any such installation mechanism to install any plug-ins, themes, extensions, software, or items other than the Mozilla product" Rahul From notting at redhat.com Mon Nov 30 20:38:03 2009 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 15:38:03 -0500 Subject: Fedora Remix and Adblock extension In-Reply-To: <4B142CA9.6060904@fedoraproject.org> References: <20091129030456.GA10339@domsch.com> <4B126CE4.6080907@fedoraproject.org> <4B13E8B7.3010908@redhat.com> <4B141425.6040404@fedoraproject.org> <1259609251.2467.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4B141DD4.3030906@fedoraproject.org> <4B142615.5010100@fedoraproject.org> <4B142AD4.2090909@kanarip.com> <4B142CA9.6060904@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <20091130203802.GA17480@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Rahul Sundaram (sundaram at fedoraproject.org) said: > The trademark guidelines from Mozilla seems to restrict it. > > http://www.mozilla.org/foundation/trademarks/policy.html > > "In addition, if you are distributing Mozilla binaries yourself, and > wish to use the Mozilla Mark(s), you may not (a) disable, modify or > otherwise interfere with any installation mechanism contained in a > Mozilla product; (b) use any such installation mechanism to install any > plug-ins, themes, extensions, software, or items other than the Mozilla > product" Actually, my reading is that "any such installation mechanism" refers to the mechanisms contained in the mozilla product. Given that the installation mechanism here is ISOs and RPMs, that would not count. But of course, as stated earlier in this thread, WANL, and talk to Mozilla. Bill From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Nov 30 20:49:49 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 02:19:49 +0530 Subject: Fedora Remix and Adblock extension In-Reply-To: <20091130203802.GA17480@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <20091129030456.GA10339@domsch.com> <4B126CE4.6080907@fedoraproject.org> <4B13E8B7.3010908@redhat.com> <4B141425.6040404@fedoraproject.org> <1259609251.2467.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4B141DD4.3030906@fedoraproject.org> <4B142615.5010100@fedoraproject.org> <4B142AD4.2090909@kanarip.com> <4B142CA9.6060904@fedoraproject.org> <20091130203802.GA17480@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <4B142FED.9080204@fedoraproject.org> On 12/01/2009 02:08 AM, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Rahul Sundaram (sundaram at fedoraproject.org) said: >> The trademark guidelines from Mozilla seems to restrict it. >> >> http://www.mozilla.org/foundation/trademarks/policy.html >> >> "In addition, if you are distributing Mozilla binaries yourself, and >> wish to use the Mozilla Mark(s), you may not (a) disable, modify or >> otherwise interfere with any installation mechanism contained in a >> Mozilla product; (b) use any such installation mechanism to install any >> plug-ins, themes, extensions, software, or items other than the Mozilla >> product" > > Actually, my reading is that "any such installation mechanism" refers > to the mechanisms contained in the mozilla product. Given that the > installation mechanism here is ISOs and RPMs, that would not count. > > But of course, as stated earlier in this thread, WANL, and talk to > Mozilla. Consider: "If you want to ship extensions, themes or plug-ins installed by default or as part of the same installation process as the Mozilla products (as opposed to, say, linked as XPIs from the default start page), and you plan on distributing them under any Mozilla Marks, you must first seek approval from us." That seems clear enough to me. I have written to them but meanwhile want to hear from others about this restriction. Rahul From tcallawa at redhat.com Mon Nov 30 20:58:59 2009 From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom "spot" Callaway) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 15:58:59 -0500 Subject: Fedora Remix and Adblock extension In-Reply-To: <4B1417FE.7030006@fedoraproject.org> References: <4B1056C7.7080305@fedoraproject.org> <20091129030456.GA10339@domsch.com> <4B126CE4.6080907@fedoraproject.org> <4B13E8B7.3010908@redhat.com> <4B141425.6040404@fedoraproject.org> <4B14149C.3040004@redhat.com> <4B1417FE.7030006@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <4B143213.5090302@redhat.com> On 11/30/2009 02:07 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > I am not sure, take it or leave are the only choices we have. Debian has > a explicit rule against getting special permissions not available for > downstreams and the rest of the free software community at clause 8 in > DFSG at > > http://www.debian.org/social_contract Okay, for starters, as I have pointed out to you in the past (repeatedly), we do not have any special permissions from Mozilla. We're using the same trademark license terms as everyone else, these terms are available to anyone. We choose to abide by their terms and use their trademarks. You (as a redistributor) have the exact same option, you can choose to use their trademark and follow their terms (or get alternate terms from Mozilla), or you can remove their trademarks. > Mozilla Firefox is the only exception that I am aware of in Fedora and > the question for the Fedora Board (among others) is whether they > consider it acceptable or not. The impact is essentially that I cannot > combine two components as it is in Fedora. Fedora itself has the same situation, we have a set of rules describing when you can use our trademarks and what you have to do in order to use it. If you don't want to abide by those terms, you can still modify and redistribute Fedora, but you can't use our trademarks. Also, as was pointed out, the Mozilla trademark license only covers installing addons using the Firefox-built-in addon mechanism. Bundling them together as part of the distribution doesn't trigger it. > If the Fedora Board considers such special exceptions permissible, can > we atleast get them documented in some place so I know I have to be > extra careful about them in a remix? I don't think I can read trademark > guidelines for all of the components in Fedora to determine such matters. You need to be extra careful when dealing with licenses in general. There is a point at which absurdity overtakes reason, and I fear we're approaching it. ~spot From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Nov 30 21:09:00 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 02:39:00 +0530 Subject: Fedora Remix and Adblock extension In-Reply-To: <4B143213.5090302@redhat.com> References: <4B1056C7.7080305@fedoraproject.org> <20091129030456.GA10339@domsch.com> <4B126CE4.6080907@fedoraproject.org> <4B13E8B7.3010908@redhat.com> <4B141425.6040404@fedoraproject.org> <4B14149C.3040004@redhat.com> <4B1417FE.7030006@fedoraproject.org> <4B143213.5090302@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4B14346C.3030809@fedoraproject.org> On 12/01/2009 02:28 AM, Tom "spot" Callaway wrote: > On 11/30/2009 02:07 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > >> I am not sure, take it or leave are the only choices we have. Debian has >> a explicit rule against getting special permissions not available for >> downstreams and the rest of the free software community at clause 8 in >> DFSG at >> >> http://www.debian.org/social_contract > > Okay, for starters, as I have pointed out to you in the past > (repeatedly), we do not have any special permissions from Mozilla. I keep hearing otherwise even in this thread which is confusing. Rahul From tcallawa at redhat.com Mon Nov 30 21:13:29 2009 From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom "spot" Callaway) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 16:13:29 -0500 Subject: Fedora Remix and Adblock extension In-Reply-To: <4B14346C.3030809@fedoraproject.org> References: <4B1056C7.7080305@fedoraproject.org> <20091129030456.GA10339@domsch.com> <4B126CE4.6080907@fedoraproject.org> <4B13E8B7.3010908@redhat.com> <4B141425.6040404@fedoraproject.org> <4B14149C.3040004@redhat.com> <4B1417FE.7030006@fedoraproject.org> <4B143213.5090302@redhat.com> <4B14346C.3030809@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <4B143579.10505@redhat.com> On 11/30/2009 04:09 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > I keep hearing otherwise even in this thread which is confusing. >From whom? A massively out of date wiki page with incorrect information? You've asked me about this, I've checked into it, and I've told you what the situation is. I'm not sure how this could be unclear. ~spot From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Nov 30 21:14:51 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 02:44:51 +0530 Subject: Fedora Remix and Adblock extension In-Reply-To: <4B143213.5090302@redhat.com> References: <4B1056C7.7080305@fedoraproject.org> <20091129030456.GA10339@domsch.com> <4B126CE4.6080907@fedoraproject.org> <4B13E8B7.3010908@redhat.com> <4B141425.6040404@fedoraproject.org> <4B14149C.3040004@redhat.com> <4B1417FE.7030006@fedoraproject.org> <4B143213.5090302@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4B1435CB.3060808@fedoraproject.org> On 12/01/2009 02:28 AM, Tom "spot" Callaway wrote: > On 11/30/2009 02:07 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > >> I am not sure, take it or leave are the only choices we have. Debian has >> a explicit rule against getting special permissions not available for >> downstreams and the rest of the free software community at clause 8 in >> DFSG at >> >> http://www.debian.org/social_contract > > Okay, for starters, as I have pointed out to you in the past > (repeatedly), we do not have any special permissions from Mozilla. We're > using the same trademark license terms as everyone else, these terms are > available to anyone. So, a related question is whether Fedora can explicitly guarantee that it won't get special permissions that is Fedora specific similar to how Debian has stated this? Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Nov 30 21:17:38 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 02:47:38 +0530 Subject: Fedora Remix and Adblock extension In-Reply-To: <4B143579.10505@redhat.com> References: <4B1056C7.7080305@fedoraproject.org> <20091129030456.GA10339@domsch.com> <4B126CE4.6080907@fedoraproject.org> <4B13E8B7.3010908@redhat.com> <4B141425.6040404@fedoraproject.org> <4B14149C.3040004@redhat.com> <4B1417FE.7030006@fedoraproject.org> <4B143213.5090302@redhat.com> <4B14346C.3030809@fedoraproject.org> <4B143579.10505@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4B143672.7040100@fedoraproject.org> On 12/01/2009 02:43 AM, Tom "spot" Callaway wrote: > On 11/30/2009 04:09 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> I keep hearing otherwise even in this thread which is confusing. > > From whom? A massively out of date wiki page with incorrect information? Matt Domsch pointed out the wiki as a reference when stating this earlier in the thread. If the wiki is outdated, please remove the information there to avoid confusion. Rahul From tcallawa at redhat.com Mon Nov 30 21:17:28 2009 From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom "spot" Callaway) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 16:17:28 -0500 Subject: Fedora Remix and Adblock extension In-Reply-To: <4B1435CB.3060808@fedoraproject.org> References: <4B1056C7.7080305@fedoraproject.org> <20091129030456.GA10339@domsch.com> <4B126CE4.6080907@fedoraproject.org> <4B13E8B7.3010908@redhat.com> <4B141425.6040404@fedoraproject.org> <4B14149C.3040004@redhat.com> <4B1417FE.7030006@fedoraproject.org> <4B143213.5090302@redhat.com> <4B1435CB.3060808@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <4B143668.1030300@redhat.com> On 11/30/2009 04:14 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > So, a related question is whether Fedora can explicitly guarantee that > it won't get special permissions that is Fedora specific similar to how > Debian has stated this? Why would we do this? We've never permitted Fedora specific licensing for anything in the past, copyright, trademark, patent, or drivers. If you want me to add some wording to the Licensing page which reflects this, I can do so. ~spot From tcallawa at redhat.com Mon Nov 30 21:17:52 2009 From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom "spot" Callaway) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 16:17:52 -0500 Subject: Fedora Remix and Adblock extension In-Reply-To: <4B143672.7040100@fedoraproject.org> References: <4B1056C7.7080305@fedoraproject.org> <20091129030456.GA10339@domsch.com> <4B126CE4.6080907@fedoraproject.org> <4B13E8B7.3010908@redhat.com> <4B141425.6040404@fedoraproject.org> <4B14149C.3040004@redhat.com> <4B1417FE.7030006@fedoraproject.org> <4B143213.5090302@redhat.com> <4B14346C.3030809@fedoraproject.org> <4B143579.10505@redhat.com> <4B143672.7040100@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <4B143680.60606@redhat.com> On 11/30/2009 04:17 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > On 12/01/2009 02:43 AM, Tom "spot" Callaway wrote: >> On 11/30/2009 04:09 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >>> I keep hearing otherwise even in this thread which is confusing. >> >> From whom? A massively out of date wiki page with incorrect information? > > Matt Domsch pointed out the wiki as a reference when stating this > earlier in the thread. If the wiki is outdated, please remove the > information there to avoid confusion. I already did that, when the link was pointed out. ~spot From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Nov 30 21:20:06 2009 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 02:50:06 +0530 Subject: Fedora Remix and Adblock extension In-Reply-To: <4B143668.1030300@redhat.com> References: <4B1056C7.7080305@fedoraproject.org> <20091129030456.GA10339@domsch.com> <4B126CE4.6080907@fedoraproject.org> <4B13E8B7.3010908@redhat.com> <4B141425.6040404@fedoraproject.org> <4B14149C.3040004@redhat.com> <4B1417FE.7030006@fedoraproject.org> <4B143213.5090302@redhat.com> <4B1435CB.3060808@fedoraproject.org> <4B143668.1030300@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4B143706.5020100@fedoraproject.org> On 12/01/2009 02:47 AM, Tom "spot" Callaway wrote: > On 11/30/2009 04:14 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> So, a related question is whether Fedora can explicitly guarantee that >> it won't get special permissions that is Fedora specific similar to how >> Debian has stated this? > > Why would we do this? We've never permitted Fedora specific licensing > for anything in the past, copyright, trademark, patent, or drivers. True but unless it is documented explicitly, someone will try and sneak something past using the stated guidelines as an excuse. You have very recent experience with that. > If you want me to add some wording to the Licensing page which reflects > this, I can do so. Yes, that would be very helpful. Thanks. Rahul From tcallawa at redhat.com Mon Nov 30 21:24:39 2009 From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom "spot" Callaway) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2009 16:24:39 -0500 Subject: Fedora Remix and Adblock extension In-Reply-To: <4B143706.5020100@fedoraproject.org> References: <4B1056C7.7080305@fedoraproject.org> <20091129030456.GA10339@domsch.com> <4B126CE4.6080907@fedoraproject.org> <4B13E8B7.3010908@redhat.com> <4B141425.6040404@fedoraproject.org> <4B14149C.3040004@redhat.com> <4B1417FE.7030006@fedoraproject.org> <4B143213.5090302@redhat.com> <4B1435CB.3060808@fedoraproject.org> <4B143668.1030300@redhat.com> <4B143706.5020100@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <4B143817.8020304@redhat.com> On 11/30/2009 04:20 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > On 12/01/2009 02:47 AM, Tom "spot" Callaway wrote: > >> If you want me to add some wording to the Licensing page which reflects >> this, I can do so. > > Yes, that would be very helpful. Thanks. I added the following text to Licensing#Overview: In addition, all acceptable licenses for Fedora (including copyright, trademark, and patent licenses) must be applicable not only to Red Hat or Fedora, but also to all recipients downstream. This means that any "Fedora-only" licenses, or licenses with specific terms that Red Hat or Fedora meets but that other recipients would not are not acceptable (and almost certainly non-free, as a result). ~spot From fhornain at gmail.com Thu Nov 19 07:16:40 2009 From: fhornain at gmail.com (Frederic Hornain) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 08:16:40 +0100 Subject: Community domain request From April 2009 In-Reply-To: <20091118190931.GV3052@victoria.internal.frields.org> References: <3161376e0911120849n73f2145eie65b2ad0ada97fba@mail.gmail.com> <20091118190931.GV3052@victoria.internal.frields.org> Message-ID: <3161376e0911182316l7a865b63m3e74e14ae03a432c@mail.gmail.com> Dear Paul, What to say ? Well THANKS. Best Regards Frederic On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 8:09 PM, Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 05:49:05PM +0100, Frederic Hornain wrote: > > Dear *, > > > > Following the request I did in April for [1]be.fedoraproject.org - I > know > > it is quite a long time -, the fedora-advisory-board and you requested > us > > - Vincent Van der Kussen, Bert and I - ( > > [2] > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-advisory-board/2009-April/msg00004.html > ) > > to give you more details about : > > > > [3]be.fedoraproject.org -> IP address :? 195.207.18.42 > > > > > The team that will maintain the site, and their current role(s) > > ?? Vincent Van der Kussen, Bert and I. - Fedora Ambassadors - > > ?? Vincent would be in charge of the Web server as it is own. > > > > > What application will be available at the site ( static pages? > Blogroll > > ? etc.) > > ?? Mostly static pages > > > > - Why we need a Belgian Fedora website : > > > > Belgian coverage of Fedora is low, (most) people have the idea that > Fedora > > is the old Red Hat system. > > > > - Purpose of the website > > ??? > > ??? - Give people a place to find Belgian information (redirect to > Dutch > > items on the Official Fedora wiki.) > > ??? - Give Ambassadors a place to get together. > > ??? - Reviews of Belgian Fedora activity. > > ??? - Fedora Belgium is no substitute for the Fedora Wiki concerning > > information ( small items must be possible) > > ??? - Get more people to start using Fedora, so maybe some of these > people > > might even start contributing. > > ??? - Central place for extra info of Belgian events. > > > > This website doesn't need to be a big thing, some basic information > for > > interested people and links to Fedora related information on the > internet. > > > > Thanks for you time and your efforts. > > > > BTW, thank to Vincent for this argumentations. > > Frederic, > > According to the Infrastructure ticket[1], this work has been > completed. Thanks for your time and contributions improving the > Fedora community! > > * * * > [1] https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/1818 > > -- > Paul W. Frields http://paul.frields.org/ > gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 > http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ > irc.freenode.net: stickster @ #fedora-docs, #fedora-devel, #fredlug > -- ----------------------------------------------------- Fedora-ambassadors-list mailing list Fedora-ambassadors-list at redhat.com Olpc mailing list olpc-open at laptop.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: