[Ambassadors] FAD EMEA (2007-11-23 - 2007-11-25)

[Thomas Canniot]

Le Sat, 10 Nov 2007 10:26:18 +0100,
Gerold Kassube <gerold at lugd.org> a écrit :

> Dear Mr. Tom and all others,
> 
> > Thanks Pierre-Yves for giving me the offlist answer to the question
> > you made here.
> > 
> > I would first recommend everyone to use the mailing list for
> > discussing this subject and avoid personal mails, so as everyone
> > could get the right info at the right moment.
> ^^
> Great Mr. Tom,

Hey Gerold :) How are you doing ?


> here you point out to answer to everyone and miscredit myself because
> I answers pingou in private and tell *only him* that FP (named: Max
> Spevack) is able to help and pays the rooms and breakfast ...
> YOU personally answered Joergs demand to have you at the FAD (sended
> to the ML as you requested) also in private;

Well, it's because I consider that some subjects are personal ones and
that others are private ones. Considering the time and date of my
arrival to Strasburg, I guess most ambassadors don't really mind about
it at all. However, knowing how much the FAD would cost them may
interest *all* the European ambassadors and not pingou alone.  Then
responding to him personnaly, is a kind of a problem as it won't
encourage people to go this FAD, as they don't have all the information
at their disposal to organise their trip.


> a few later than you
> wrote this "Hey, we in France don't need a FAD; so why you stupid
> other European need" ...

I never said such a thing and never insulted any other European
Ambassadors. Maybe I'm not chatty enough to say how much I respect the
work of all the Ambassadors, but you can't make me tell things I never
wrote / said / thought.


> It that the way you like to form national or regional Teams? 
> 
> > 
> > Then according to what Pierre Yves told me, the FedoraProject
> > offered ambassadors for the FAD the nights at the hotel, but can't
> > invest in transportation. That's really disappointing, and we could
> > really wonder how the FP consider the FAD : For this kind of
> > European meeting, it is quite ununderstandable that the hotel is
> > offered. I would have offered the transport (train, car, anyway you
> > want as long as you can justify it and say before the FAD : "i'm
> > going there and I expect to spend XXX€ there because of the
> > train"). In fact, in Europe and anywhere, what is very expensive
> > for people is transportation and not sleeping in a hotel.
> ^^
> What is fair to everyone? The one like to arrange flying, the other
> preferes traveling by train or by car ... The other one likes to
> travel with others so the way is very, very different how to "arrive"
> at the FAD ....
> ... and this also depends to the costs!

I understand this is very subjective, and I agree with you that others
could have prefered the other reimbursement.


> BUT it is always and for everybody the same price for a room to stay
> over night.
> And from my point of view it is more important to have a full day of
> work face-to-face instead of 200 IRC meetings or TelCo-Calls.

Of course it is more efficient and I know it don't worry.


> To your complain "Why at this f*** guy near to Basel in sh*** Germany
> [remark: thats what personally I understand what you're saying
> everytime];

Well then you understand it in a very subjective way. I'm not that
vulgar in real life :)


> It it not my primary duty to organise FADs or fairs near
> to my "home" it is because I know a little bit around here ...
> ... and unfortunately it is also "central" in Europe. We have here
> France, Switzerland, Germany as Countrys reachable in 20 minutes! We
> have an airport (Basel, Moulhouse, Freiburg), we have a big railway
> station BAsel and last but not least we have a high concentration of
> (yes I have to say it) German Ambassadors around 200 - 300 kms like
> Robert, Jens, Joerg, Florian, Jan, Stefan, Andreas; don't forget ALL
> Swiss Ambassadors Fabian, Sandro and the Austrian like Claus or
> Oliver ...

OK then you win here. I personaly don't know the local geography near
Basel and it remains quite difficult to know where ambassadors are
precisely located. In France, we know where is everybody becasue it is
people we chat with everybody. And I agree as well that if I tell you
that Johan is from Douai and Armel from Nantes, it won't ring a bell to
you either.
One of our lackness in France is that most ambassadors are from the
West cost or from the North of France.


> FAD is for this people who will attend and are able to help; it is a
> "planing and organisational meeting" for the Ambassadors who are
> willing to help covering EUROPEAN fairs, Events or whatelse.
> Everybody is invited and who is near or far from us to attend and
> bring his issues to us as a TEAM!
> In this Gremium we decide in which events we want to push our power to
> bring fedora forward ...
> By gosh, Mr. Tom ...
> this is not my private meeting, it is a "come together from EMEAs
> Ambassadors"!

I know :) Then, as it is a series of European meeting, why not have the
organisation of the FAD turning each year ? This year it is in Basel,
next year it could be in Italy, in Poland, in France, in any other
country where people are ready to organise it. That could be
outstanding and even fairer for everybody.


> > What do we really need to run a fad ? This question could be
> > rephrased by : What do we need for people to talk in front of each
> > other, at the same time and place. The answer is very simple : a
> > table and chairs ! And we found them in most hotels anywhere in
> > Europe. Because what is important is that people could move, to
> > meet and discuss. Not that the thickness of the matress they would
> > sleep on :). You can always take a low cost hotel on you own or ask
> > for some friend / family / local ambassadors to sleep at their
> > homes, for free or very little money.
> ^^
> see above!
> 
> > 
> > What I want to say is that : 
> > 1. We don't need such a luxurious hotel to run the FAD
> ^^
> correct, you can come saturday in the morning (mostly we start WORKING
> at 9 or 10 a.m.) and you can leave after we're ready with work at 10
> or 11 p.m.; no doubt about ...
> But the other attendees want to have to oppurtunity to see and feel
> other Ambassadors, their thinking and "tick-ing" and we want to have
> also fun, discussion face-to-face

That I will be happy to do as well :)


> > 2. All we need is a table and chairs (most *normal* hotels have
> > them)
> ^^
> Yes, maybe we are for the "work" somewhere else; at the university of
> Basel, in my private house, in a dedicated meeting room; as I told
> somewhere .... :-)
> 
> > 3. We need to be reimbursed what *is* expensive : transportation,
> > and not the hotel
> ^^
> could never be handled and is fair to everybody. If you need to be
> there or it is important for you to attend and you can't pay for
> whatever; (this is for all Ambassadors the same!) ASK Max or the
> project to help!

Why not actually, but asking for money in a private way is something
that makes me very ill at ease, and this is not really the best way I
would like the FedoraProject be towards Ambassadors (i.e. a cash
machine to pay for people travels). And as Max is already paying for
the hotel, I personaly think that HIS help is not something we should
abuse of.


> > 4. Some hotels (low cost and high cost ones) could / should have
> > been suggested instead of imposing one to the group, and imposing
> > them to pay for something they can hardly decide of the price.
> ^^
> It is up-to-everybody to organise an event (like this) and bring it to
> everyones attention to make it better ...

Great then, we should maybe organise a vote on the list or with the
Fedora account system so as to vote for a next organising country
(of course, the last country in the list wouldn't be allowed to run for
the organisation the year after - or more)

 
> > Finally, I would like to remind everybody that the FedoraProject is
> > composed of many profiles and I would retain two of them : employees
> > and students. Thanks to them, you can already understand that they
> > don't have the same revenue and the same way of life.
> > Thus, I have to announce you that I don't have 250€ to spend for
> > Fedora.
> ^^
> It is better not to have a look back what I personally spend out of my
> pocket to "help" Fedora with my small support I can give but I'm sure
> if I count all and every pence and I ask Max to pay he'll kick me
> out. And I'm also sure that there are many more who spend more of
> their live, money and power to support Fedora with more than your 250
> EUR ... But if you need it to attend let me know, I'm also able to
> help and ask the community to collect the money for you ...

Well, I understand that 250€ could represent a little for you, but this
is once again very subjective as it depends on what you earn every
month! I'm a student, I don't work! I can afford the trip, but just
understand that Fedora is not my priority in my monthly budget! 
And about asking the community to pay for my trip, please understand
that I'm not waiting for money from the comunity, but for contribution
that would be much more helpful for the FP.


> > Once again, I am very disappointed, because one again, I will miss
> > the fad.
> Fortunately you can attend. It is a pleasure for all of us to have the
> President of the french people at the table

And understand that it will be a pleasure for me to be one of yours.


> Finaly: I am pissed of from this mail and it hurts me personally much
> and I feel very unsatisfied when I read such words. I only want to
> bring the community, the project and last but not least Fedora
> forward. And one person begins to ask basicly question because he
> don't understand what we have practiced some times before and begun to
> live ...

I understand your reaction and I don't criticize your involvement in
any way. I would just have asked more the other Ambassadors about "the
FAD of their dreams". But once again, it is not a reproach you have to
take for yourself, it is just a way of organizing things that you
brought to us silently because nobody was ready or chatty enough to
say what he thougt about this. We CAN organise things in another way
and I would be very glad to help you organise them.
As there were very tiny debates about how to run a FAD, then I'm glad we
can have this discussion with you.


> I have now tried to organize several FADs in Rheinfelden, in Berlin
> (is approx. 800 km away); Linuxtag the last two years and much more
> and you ask why? Because nobody other will do so or is able to do;

Do you want to bet ? ;)


> I  don't know but from my point of view it is much important to do
> so; and all attendees tell me that this is important what I try to
> do; so either you like nor you dislike. If you like attend if you
> dislike stay at home.

see above !

> 
> Just my five cents
> 
> Gerold

And my five cents as well :)

Thomas
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