[Ambassadors] Re: Replies to Certification Projects

[Abhradip Mukherjee]

@John and @any0n3

>I really still have no idea  what you are trying to convey with "certified
by fedoraproject." Do
>you want the students certified? Do you want the project certified? In
either case, what does the >certification imply?
I want to get the contributors certified on a paper which they can show to
their potential employers and say that "look, I have done project with these
guys and they certified me as a good contributor to their project".

@David

>I'd really recommend that you talk to Chris Tyler who teaches at

>Seneca College.

>http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/TeachingOpenSource_Mailing_List

Thanks a lot for such a nice constructive reply. Right now I am working on
that. Will send a mail to Tyler soon.

>The long and short of it is that you really need the instructors to be

>involved and grok both F/LOSS and Fedora if you want to be successful

>in using Fedora projects for coursework. Of course the benefit to the

>students is huge.

Thanks again! I am careful about such issues.



>You could either opt for general linux certifications with local LPIC
>centers.If your goal is to involve Red Hat certifications you cannot use
any Fedora
>branding iirc.

I am specifically looking to start projects that will contribute to FOSS and
Fedora and upon completion of such project contributors will be certified by
fedora project as contributors to that particular project.

@Jos? Roberto Colombo Junior <joseroberto at ieee.org>

>Yes ... I liked your idea.

Thanks!

>For sample, it's a project that will do what?

The projects can range from a documentation on how to play popular games on
PlayOnLinux, to contribute simple install scripts to
http://install.passion4freedom.07x.net to improvising on default
installation of Fedora upto anything that is feasible. Basically we will
launch a Brainstorm platform to gather ideas

>Or, what do I need?

I need assurance from Fedora that the works will be acknowledged and each
contributor will get an "offline copy of this acknowledgement in form of a
certificate".

>And, what are my goals?

I am interested in bringing more people (atleast from technological
colleges) to the development of GNU/Linux. I have often seen students saying
things like "why this is like this, can't they make it easier to use". In
case of FOSS they can change it but they dont do it. Because of two main
reasons.

1) They dont know how to do it. When they try to get into such things, they
get afraid by thinking that they have to study it all of their own and
there's no one around to help. Why not take some initiatives to encourage
and help such students? A brand name like Fedora can do a lot in such cases.

2) Under the immense pressure of their syllabus, they can not take out time
to contribute in a project that will neither give them any financial benefit
nor will do any benefit to their resume. At the end of the day everyone
needs to earn. Free software is a matter of freedom, free as in free speech
not free beer. But the message they get from such situations is that there's
no profit in developing free software. Which is wrong. If we can not finance
them for their work, why not try the second alternative? They think we are
trying to "use" them. Why not give them something back (in real)?

Creating such a development oriented environment is my goal.

>I am very happy with your idea!

Thanks a lot for helping me write a to the point reply.

>By what I see, he wants a certification, like a square to put on the wall,

>is it? Because this way, his students will be motived too much!

You understood the idea right.

>Sound good. This will motivate more contributors to Fedora project. As
>this gives something the contributor is proud of and as a substance of
>their work and participation.
And you understood it the best.


>Best Regards,
>Jason

Wish you lived as my neighbour.

@Kushal

>I don't think certificates are any good to attract students who
>will/"want to" become contributors.

I beg to differ. We need more contributors and we need more people to
educate about the ideologies of FOSS. OSS development model concentrates on
collaboration and is not a model that says "You wont get anything in return
because it is Free Software".

>Looking someone's own name in the project's website or in the Author's page
gives much more >confidence and "feel good" attitude than any certificate.

Nothing as offline copy to show to the employer at the time of interview.
They wont "feel good" then. Also let me inform you about campaigns by
non-free software companies. They list their names with photos, pay them
wages, invite to seminars and give food, sponsor their events. Which one
will make them "feel good" more? I am taking a better approach in terms of
ethics. I am bringing them to our movement with projects that gives
something in return to them apart from the knowledge. And then make them
realize why FOSS is necessary in terms of philosophy and development of
computer technology. Isn't it a better approach?

>All the developers we know , we know by their work, not by looking into
some certificate.

True. Even our certifications will not matter to them much after they start
regular contribution to FOSS. But to initiate the process, certification can
be a magic wind.


>I know personally how the students run behind a printed copy
of certificate,

Thanks for supporting my line above.

>but bringing the same attitude into FOSS development is not going to help
us.
What about RHCT, RHCE, SCJP etc? Aren't they based on FOSS technologies?
This time its just that instead of going with an exam I am talking about
contributing to a project. This will definitely help us. Also please clarify
why do you think it wont help us only if we issue certificates keeping other
things like awareness among the programmers intact? We wont take students
instantly into the project. At first they have to work with us and after we
are sure about his Passion4Freedom (http://groups.google.com/group/tp4f) we
will include them in our projects.

@ Shakthi Kannan

>Here in India (West Bengal) we have a strong
>base. There are several students ready to jump into development fields.
They
>want to contribute and work for fedoraproject and GNU/Linux development at
>large.
 >So, if (that) already exists why do we need certification?
Because when they get to know that for doing the development they wont get
any money / any certificate, the best brains ( the ones who can easily get
money for their work from other offtime jobs) and the competent  students
(who can easily do a project in some institutions by paying some money and
can get a certificate) goes away. The ones who understands the true meaning
of FOSS at that moment of time stays with us. But I can guarantee if those
other guys have joined us then, someday later they would have also become
FOSS followers as through the activities of the movement we would have
successfully conveyed the message to them. They can pay for certificates.
But wont go for something which is cheap and gives nothing in return except
listing on websites. What will they have in hand to show their mother, who
might not know anything about websites and therefore does not understand the
importance. (She would have been more happy to see her son's face on a
not-so-famous local newspaper, simply because then she would have had
something to take in hand, go to her neighbor and show off). What will they
show to an employer who wont agree to go up and check on the website whether
the student sitting in front has a listing on the website or not. He would
pick the next guy who has a well known certification in hand.


>The problem with certification is that it is sometimes projected
>differently that people join in _just_ for the certification,

and
>In this process, people fail to understand FOSS development models,

>iterative learning processes, curiosity and need to experiment, learn,
>community participation et. al.

and

>One needs to give the true picture of community participation,
>Free/Open Source development, than have short *marketing offers*.

As I mentioned, we wont take anybody in, _just_ for the certification. It
will be like if you understand FOSS ideologies well, and if you are willing
to learn through projects we will give you an opportunity to work and get
certificate of appreciation upon quality contribution.

>and not that they love Free/Open Source Software, and end up demanding
>questions like: "I am certified, but, where can I now get a job?"
Have you ever heard somebody asking the same question to any training
institutions who give away random certifications to any guy with a fat
wallet?

We will issue certifications on FOSS technologies if you are worthy of it,
that's it. If you think you want it, come and join us. If you dont think you
want it we still ask you to join us. If you dont want to join us, just hear
to our appeal at least with care and then decide. If you are determined to
not to join us, then "Thank you and doors are always open for you to come
back and join us". What's wrong in such an approach?

>While this might bring lot of certified people in a short-term, it
>doesn't help in catering to the individual in the long run.
What will cater to the individual in the long run is the experience of
working in a FOSS project and understanding the philosophies of FOSS
movement.

>Just my thoughts,
Thanks for sharing and making me explain in detail.

@Sankarshan

>Instead of thinking of starting a project to "certify" the interested
participants, it would perhaps >be a good idea to look at : <
http://kushaldas.in/tmp/summer_training-small.png> And, as >always,there is
#fedora-india for them to land up and get initial hand-holding/coaching.

Thanks for guiding to such a wonderful initiative by dgplug. But my goal is
a bit different. It's not "training for a particular period of time on
pre-decided topics". I am looking for a platform to collaborate on projects
anywhere anytime for anybody interested in FOSS development. Projects will
go on, day after day new new students will come and join. It is not summer
training.

>The way I read your mail, you are talking about two specific points :

>[1] getting students to contribute and participate [2] assessing the

>feasibility of obtaining for them a "certificate" which would be

>accepted and relevant in their academic life. I'd suggest that we

>focus a bit more on [1] first so that we have good participants.

I am focused on point[1] as you can perhaps see from my detailed reply. Now
it is time for me to concentrate more on point[2] as I want those brains too
who might not be much interested in doing a project for obtaining no money/
no certifications.Thank you for replying Sankarshanda.

Please help me on this issue and make this thing happen. It is a necessity
of the community according to my opinion.

With hope still alive,

-ADM

Fedora Ambassador, WB, India
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