From leonard at den.ottolander.nl Thu Apr 1 12:57:35 2004 From: leonard at den.ottolander.nl (Leonard den Ottolander) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 14:57:35 +0200 Subject: Is SELinux for curmudgeonly codgers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1080824254.4753.13.camel@athlon.localdomain> Hi Bear Tooth, > Given that I live behind a hardware router as well as RedHat's medium > level of security -- and normally turn the cable modem off at night, as > well as shutting everything down when out of town, and updating every few > days when in town, or at once on receipt of any security notice from > RedHat -- does SELinux look like being more of a boon or a hassle? These kind of issues are better discussed at the fedora-test-list or the fedora-selinux-list (this is the desktop-list, ie for discussion on desktop development). See http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo for subscription. You can also find the archives there. Similar questions to yours have been discussed on these lists in the last few days (at least on the test-list), so you might want to browse the archive a little. Also there's a FAQ that handles most basic questions at http://people.redhat.com/kwade/fedora-docs/selinux-faq-en/ . Leonard. -- mount -t life -o ro /dev/dna /genetic/research From bt3819 at arbor.edu Thu Apr 1 18:15:45 2004 From: bt3819 at arbor.edu (Benjamin Thompson) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 13:15:45 -0500 Subject: Mozilla Usability in FC2t2 Message-ID: <406C5C51.4030903@arbor.edu> Hello everyone, I don't know if anyone else is having this issue, I don't know if it's a bug that I could/should report on bugzilla, and nobody on #fedora ever responds. My question is this: is it normal for Mozilla to appear to have completely locked up for periods of time in excess of 45 seconds when navigating to a new page? This happens to me very consistently and I'm wondering if this has been happening to anyone else. It makes my browsing an exceedingly slow and arduous process. Mozilla-Mail also freezes when the browser does this. Yet after the wait, the page is seen as loaded and the browser and mail client are functioning as normal. This presents a serious detriment to usability if Mozilla is behaving this way. A less patient person would assume Mozilla was crashing and would end up Force-Quitting their browser several times per hour. If I am unique in having this issue, I hope someone can offer suggestions on how I can fix the problem. Intel PIII 800MHz 512 PC133 SDRAM ATI Radeon 7200 Mozilla 1.6 Fully yum-updated Fedora Core 2 test2 as of this writing From kreg at virtual1.net Thu Apr 1 18:22:31 2004 From: kreg at virtual1.net (Kreg Steppe) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 13:22:31 -0500 Subject: Mozilla Usability in FC2t2 In-Reply-To: <406C5C51.4030903@arbor.edu> References: <406C5C51.4030903@arbor.edu> Message-ID: <1080843751.5827.15.camel@tayloraxp03.mvalaw.com> Not to be dismissive to your problem, I am not having that problem. I have Moz open all day long. (I am a web developer) Would sound like a DNS problem if it wasn't for mail acting up also. (Do you have Mac Flash installed?) Kreg Steppe On Thu, 2004-04-01 at 13:15, Benjamin Thompson wrote: > Hello everyone, > > I don't know if anyone else is having this issue, I don't know if > it's a bug that I could/should report on bugzilla, and nobody on #fedora > ever responds. My question is this: is it normal for Mozilla to appear > to have completely locked up for periods of time in excess of 45 seconds > when navigating to a new page? This happens to me very consistently and > I'm wondering if this has been happening to anyone else. It makes my > browsing an exceedingly slow and arduous process. Mozilla-Mail also > freezes when the browser does this. Yet after the wait, the page is seen > as loaded and the browser and mail client are functioning as normal. > This presents a serious detriment to usability if Mozilla is behaving > this way. A less patient person would assume Mozilla was crashing and > would end up Force-Quitting their browser several times per hour. If I > am unique in having this issue, I hope someone can offer suggestions on > how I can fix the problem. > > Intel PIII 800MHz > 512 PC133 SDRAM > ATI Radeon 7200 > Mozilla 1.6 > Fully yum-updated Fedora Core 2 test2 as of this writing > From limbo at bluethingy.com Thu Apr 1 18:54:47 2004 From: limbo at bluethingy.com (Michael Knepher) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 10:54:47 -0800 Subject: Mozilla Usability in FC2t2 In-Reply-To: <406C5C51.4030903@arbor.edu> References: <406C5C51.4030903@arbor.edu> Message-ID: <1080845687.8174.10.camel@lionel-hutz.darnell.group> On Thu, 2004-04-01 at 13:15 -0500, Benjamin Thompson wrote: > Hello everyone, > > I don't know if anyone else is having this issue, I don't know if > it's a bug that I could/should report on bugzilla, and nobody on #fedora > ever responds. My question is this: is it normal for Mozilla to appear > to have completely locked up for periods of time in excess of 45 seconds > when navigating to a new page? This happens to me very consistently and > I'm wondering if this has been happening to anyone else. It makes my > browsing an exceedingly slow and arduous process. Mozilla-Mail also > freezes when the browser does this. Yet after the wait, the page is seen > as loaded and the browser and mail client are functioning as normal. > This presents a serious detriment to usability if Mozilla is behaving > this way. A less patient person would assume Mozilla was crashing and > would end up Force-Quitting their browser several times per hour. If I > am unique in having this issue, I hope someone can offer suggestions on > how I can fix the problem. fedora-test or fedora-devel are probably better lists for this question, but I've had similar issues with the latest epiphany/moz-1.6, though not necessarily to the same degree. While the browser is getting data for a large page (possibly waiting for the server to provide dynamically-built pages?), I am only able to switch tabs either immediately after clicking (within 1-2 seconds) or after the page loads. > > Intel PIII 800MHz > 512 PC133 SDRAM > ATI Radeon 7200 > Mozilla 1.6 > Fully yum-updated Fedora Core 2 test2 as of this writing > > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list From behdad at cs.toronto.edu Thu Apr 1 21:27:14 2004 From: behdad at cs.toronto.edu (Behdad Esfahbod) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 16:27:14 -0500 Subject: Mozilla Usability in FC2t2 In-Reply-To: <406C5C51.4030903@arbor.edu> References: <406C5C51.4030903@arbor.edu> Message-ID: Do you have Flash plugins installed? In this case a lock up is a known problem and killing esd temporarily fixes that. behdad On Thu, 1 Apr 2004, Benjamin Thompson wrote: > Hello everyone, > > I don't know if anyone else is having this issue, I don't know if > it's a bug that I could/should report on bugzilla, and nobody on #fedora > ever responds. My question is this: is it normal for Mozilla to appear > to have completely locked up for periods of time in excess of 45 seconds > when navigating to a new page? This happens to me very consistently and > I'm wondering if this has been happening to anyone else. It makes my > browsing an exceedingly slow and arduous process. Mozilla-Mail also > freezes when the browser does this. Yet after the wait, the page is seen > as loaded and the browser and mail client are functioning as normal. > This presents a serious detriment to usability if Mozilla is behaving > this way. A less patient person would assume Mozilla was crashing and > would end up Force-Quitting their browser several times per hour. If I > am unique in having this issue, I hope someone can offer suggestions on > how I can fix the problem. > > Intel PIII 800MHz > 512 PC133 SDRAM > ATI Radeon 7200 > Mozilla 1.6 > Fully yum-updated Fedora Core 2 test2 as of this writing > > > --behdad behdad.org From jpgrdnr at softhome.net Fri Apr 2 17:48:16 2004 From: jpgrdnr at softhome.net (jpgrdnr at softhome.net) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 10:48:16 -0700 Subject: Gnome and Kde problem Message-ID: Unable to start gnome or kde(as of Fedora Core Test 2). I get the startup "Fedora Core" without the icons and then a freeze (I am still able to Ctrl Alt Bkspace to the prompt). I've looked at the logs and have problems with the Alsa driver and the esound. I had gnome problems since RH 9. With Fedora Core 1 I could start kde by using gdm in root and then logging into root with the session being kde. Kde no longer works with this method. Would a reinstall be a good recommend as opposed to an update? I'm running a Athlon XP1600+ /w 512 mgs ram, FX5600 (an Abit Siluro 256mb version) although I have gotten x to work (I dont see it being the video card) Any troubleshooting suggestions would be great because I have an IBM R40 and FC T2 rocks on it! Jon From nphilipp at redhat.com Fri Apr 2 20:18:40 2004 From: nphilipp at redhat.com (Nils Philippsen) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 22:18:40 +0200 Subject: Gnome and Kde problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1080937119.2492.1.camel@gibraltar.stuttgart.redhat.com> On Fri, 2004-04-02 at 19:48, jpgrdnr at softhome.net wrote: > Unable to start gnome or kde(as of Fedora Core Test 2). I get the startup > "Fedora Core" without the icons and then a freeze (I am still able to Ctrl > Alt Bkspace to the prompt). I've looked at the logs and have problems with > the Alsa driver and the esound. I had gnome problems since RH 9. > With Fedora Core 1 I could start kde by using gdm in root and then logging > into root with the session being kde. Kde no longer works with this method. > > Would a reinstall be a good recommend as opposed to an update? > I'm running a Athlon XP1600+ /w 512 mgs ram, FX5600 (an Abit Siluro 256mb > version) > although I have gotten x to work (I dont see it being the video card) Are you by chance using the nvidia supplied binary only drivers? BTW, your question might be better suited for fedora-test-list. Nils -- Nils Philippsen / Red Hat / nphilipp at redhat.com "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- B. Franklin, 1759 PGP fingerprint: C4A8 9474 5C4C ADE3 2B8F 656D 47D8 9B65 6951 3011 From jpgrdnr at softhome.net Sat Apr 3 17:13:37 2004 From: jpgrdnr at softhome.net (jpgrdnr at softhome.net) Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2004 10:13:37 -0700 Subject: Fedora-desktop-list Digest, Vol 2, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <20040403170005.43CFE73C08@hormel.redhat.com> References: <20040403170005.43CFE73C08@hormel.redhat.com> Message-ID: fedora-desktop-list-request at redhat.com writes: > Send Fedora-desktop-list mailing list submissions to > fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > fedora-desktop-list-request at redhat.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > fedora-desktop-list-owner at redhat.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Fedora-desktop-list digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Gnome and Kde problem (jpgrdnr at softhome.net) > 2. Re: Gnome and Kde problem (Nils Philippsen) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 10:48:16 -0700 > From: jpgrdnr at softhome.net > Subject: Gnome and Kde problem > To: fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Unable to start gnome or kde(as of Fedora Core Test 2). I get the startup > "Fedora Core" without the icons and then a freeze (I am still able to Ctrl > Alt Bkspace to the prompt). I've looked at the logs and have problems with > the Alsa driver and the esound. I had gnome problems since RH 9. > With Fedora Core 1 I could start kde by using gdm in root and then logging > into root with the session being kde. Kde no longer works with this method. > > Would a reinstall be a good recommend as opposed to an update? > I'm running a Athlon XP1600+ /w 512 mgs ram, FX5600 (an Abit Siluro 256mb > version) > although I have gotten x to work (I dont see it being the video card) > > > Any troubleshooting suggestions would be great because I have an IBM R40 > and FC T2 rocks on it! > > Jon > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 22:18:40 +0200 > From: Nils Philippsen > Subject: Re: Gnome and Kde problem > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > > Message-ID: <1080937119.2492.1.camel at gibraltar.stuttgart.redhat.com> > Content-Type: text/plain > > On Fri, 2004-04-02 at 19:48, jpgrdnr at softhome.net wrote: >> Unable to start gnome or kde(as of Fedora Core Test 2). I get the startup >> "Fedora Core" without the icons and then a freeze (I am still able to Ctrl >> Alt Bkspace to the prompt). I've looked at the logs and have problems with >> the Alsa driver and the esound. I had gnome problems since RH 9. >> With Fedora Core 1 I could start kde by using gdm in root and then logging >> into root with the session being kde. Kde no longer works with this method. >> >> Would a reinstall be a good recommend as opposed to an update? >> I'm running a Athlon XP1600+ /w 512 mgs ram, FX5600 (an Abit Siluro 256mb >> version) >> although I have gotten x to work (I dont see it being the video card) > > Are you by chance using the nvidia supplied binary only drivers? > > BTW, your question might be better suited for fedora-test-list. > > Nils > -- > Nils Philippsen / Red Hat / nphilipp at redhat.com I've tried both the nv and nvidia drivers respectively and haven't noticed a changed other than in performance. Started posting to the other mailing list. I'm just wondering about some method to go about this, beyond looking at the logfiles. Jon From michaelfivis at verizon.net Sat Apr 3 18:23:49 2004 From: michaelfivis at verizon.net (michael fivis) Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2004 13:23:49 -0500 Subject: Fedora-desktop-list Digest, Vol 2, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: References: <20040403170005.43CFE73C08@hormel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <406F0135.5060109@verizon.net> Isn't that good if they perform differently? > > I've tried both the nv and nvidia drivers respectively and haven't > noticed a changed other than in performance. Started posting to the > other mailing list. > I'm just wondering about some method to go about this, beyond looking > at the logfiles. > Jon > From jpgrdnr at softhome.net Sun Apr 4 17:51:40 2004 From: jpgrdnr at softhome.net (jpgrdnr at softhome.net) Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2004 11:51:40 -0600 Subject: X server/KDE/Gnome problems In-Reply-To: <20040404160007.0553C73CE9@hormel.redhat.com> References: <20040404160007.0553C73CE9@hormel.redhat.com> Message-ID: Nils: > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2004 13:23:49 -0500 > From: michael fivis > Subject: Re: Fedora-desktop-list Digest, Vol 2, Issue 3 > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > > Message-ID: <406F0135.5060109 at verizon.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Isn't that good if they perform differently? Yup, it a good thing down the road...but as of now different drivers don't really help out a whole lot. I'm going to try a full reinstall and see if that works. And if it doesn't then there's some sort of configuration failure on Redhat's part. I'll just have to wait until my hardware is supported. Jon From jpgrdnr at softhome.net Sun Apr 4 19:47:48 2004 From: jpgrdnr at softhome.net (jpgrdnr at softhome.net) Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2004 13:47:48 -0600 Subject: Complete reinstall fixed gnome/kde problems. Message-ID: A complete reinstall fixed all issues I had with gnome and kde. Wild. Very nice. Saw the bootloader for the first time. Looks professional. Jon From solo4bird at sohu.com Mon Apr 5 07:43:58 2004 From: solo4bird at sohu.com (solo4bird at sohu.com) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 15:43:58 +0800 (CST) Subject: Bugs with ppp0 configuration (ADSL) Message-ID: <7010060.1081151038284.JavaMail.postfix@mx23.mail.sohu.com> I am using fedora core 1 with the newest 2.6.4 kernel, built by myself. I am using the GUI tool of redhat-config-network to add an ppp0 device for ADSL,there was a wizard pop out for my configuration. So following the steps of the wizard, I named the ISP as CNC, and then entered the user name and password for the virtual dial of ADSL. After this, I activated the device. I found I got an IP from ISP, but I cannot ping any host. eg, ping www.yahoo.com, I got an "unkown host " returned. and there is nothing in /etc/resolve file. I try to locate the problem. I found when I add the ppp0 via the GUI tool. All the config file of this ppp0 device have been named as conifg-CNC. By this way, if I use "ifup ppp0", fedora will give me an error of "missing ppp0 config file". Then I looked into the property of the ppp0 device using the GUI tool. There found an alias item, which is CNC by the way. I renamed it as ppp0 and save. I found the config-CNC files had been renamed as config-ppp0. And then reactivated the device, all the network problem were gone!!! So I figure it as a potential bug of redhat-config-network! Tony Liu 2004-04-05 China,P.R From victor at opsource.net Mon Apr 5 23:46:36 2004 From: victor at opsource.net (Victor Gregorio) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2004 16:46:36 -0700 Subject: Gconf-editor Option For Click to Raise? Message-ID: <4071EFDC.9050703@opsource.net> Hello. Is there an option hidden somewhere in gconf that tweaks the "click to raise" option for windows? I can configure the focus to follow the mouse, but need to click on the title bar in order to raise the window. I would prefer if the window raised itself when I click *any* part of the window. Is this possible with Fedora? Thanks, Victor. From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Tue Apr 6 00:11:28 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2004 20:11:28 -0400 Subject: Gconf-editor Option For Click to Raise? In-Reply-To: <4071EFDC.9050703@opsource.net> References: <4071EFDC.9050703@opsource.net> Message-ID: <1081210288.26562.8.camel@binkley> On Mon, 2004-04-05 at 16:46 -0700, Victor Gregorio wrote: > Hello. Is there an option hidden somewhere in gconf that tweaks the > "click to raise" option for windows? I can configure the focus to > follow the mouse, but need to click on the title bar in order to raise > the window. > > I would prefer if the window raised itself when I click *any* part of > the window. Is this possible with Fedora? > Newer version of metacity fixes this problem. it was a looooooooooong complained about bug. -sv From victor at opsource.net Tue Apr 6 00:29:58 2004 From: victor at opsource.net (Victor Gregorio) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2004 17:29:58 -0700 Subject: Gconf-editor Option For Click to Raise? In-Reply-To: <1081210288.26562.8.camel@binkley> References: <4071EFDC.9050703@opsource.net> <1081210288.26562.8.camel@binkley> Message-ID: <4071FA06.9030603@opsource.net> Thank you. -Victor seth vidal wrote: > On Mon, 2004-04-05 at 16:46 -0700, Victor Gregorio wrote: > > >>Hello. Is there an option hidden somewhere in gconf that tweaks the >>"click to raise" option for windows? I can configure the focus to >>follow the mouse, but need to click on the title bar in order to raise >>the window. >> >>I would prefer if the window raised itself when I click *any* part of >>the window. Is this possible with Fedora? >> > > > Newer version of metacity fixes this problem. > it was a looooooooooong complained about bug. > > -sv > > > From db at zigo.dhs.org Tue Apr 6 05:38:10 2004 From: db at zigo.dhs.org (Dennis Bjorklund) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 07:38:10 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Gconf-editor Option For Click to Raise? In-Reply-To: <1081210288.26562.8.camel@binkley> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Apr 2004, seth vidal wrote: > > I would prefer if the window raised itself when I click *any* part of > > the window. Is this possible with Fedora? > > Newer version of metacity fixes this problem. > it was a looooooooooong complained about bug. Then we can expect a lot of complaints from the people who prefer to not raise the window when clicking in the interior (when using focus follows the mouse stuff). Or is the fix a gconf setting? -- /Dennis Bj?rklund From victor at opsource.net Tue Apr 6 05:43:36 2004 From: victor at opsource.net (Victor Gregorio) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2004 22:43:36 -0700 Subject: Gconf-editor Option For Click to Raise? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40724388.9070109@opsource.net> A gconf setting would be ideal. -Victor Dennis Bjorklund wrote: > On Mon, 5 Apr 2004, seth vidal wrote: > > >>>I would prefer if the window raised itself when I click *any* part of >>>the window. Is this possible with Fedora? >> >>Newer version of metacity fixes this problem. >>it was a looooooooooong complained about bug. > > > Then we can expect a lot of complaints from the people who prefer to not > raise the window when clicking in the interior (when using focus follows > the mouse stuff). > > Or is the fix a gconf setting? > From stevelist at silverorange.com Wed Apr 14 01:03:10 2004 From: stevelist at silverorange.com (Steven Garrity) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 22:03:10 -0300 Subject: Visual highlight of active inputs Message-ID: <407C8DCE.8010201@silverorange.com> I posted last month in gnome-usability (http://lists.gnome.org/archives/usability/2004-March/msg00067.html) about visually highlighting active input boxes. > I'm curious as to what people think about trying to make the current > focus more visual prominent on input widgets - especially text input fields. > > Currently, the only visual indication of an active/focused text input > filed in Gnome (and in Windows, for that matter) is the thin blinking > text-input cursor. I was told that this was already possible and was in the realm of the theme. If this is the case, perhaps it is something worth looking at for bluecurve. The highlighting of active form elements is very powerful in OS X (screenshot: http://www.actsofvolition.com/images/osxreview_textform.gif) and would be interesting to see in Gnome. Steven Garrity From walters at redhat.com Wed Apr 21 17:48:11 2004 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 13:48:11 -0400 Subject: replacing XMMS Message-ID: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> So our situation with music players is a little bad. Right now in the menu we have "Music Player" and "Audio Player". The first is Rhythmbox, the second is XMMS. A user new to Fedora is going to be baffled by this - it's like having two clocks. Ideally we would only have one music player. I'm hoping to get Rhythmbox in good enough shape for FC3 that it can replace XMMS for most use cases. What I'm curious of is comments by people who still use XMMS, and why. What are the most important things to you that need to be fixed in Rhythmbox? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Wed Apr 21 17:57:41 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 13:57:41 -0400 Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> Message-ID: <1082570261.12666.4.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> > What I'm curious of is comments by people who still use XMMS, and why. > What are the most important things to you that need to be fixed in > Rhythmbox? > I still use xmms b/c will run w/o skipping on my laptop (p3-550) rhythmbox won't. xmms is less pretty but I typically queue up songs, put it on the last desktop and leave it alone, so it's not a big deal. -sv From walters at redhat.com Wed Apr 21 18:06:37 2004 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 14:06:37 -0400 Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <1082570261.12666.4.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082570261.12666.4.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> Message-ID: <1082570797.2438.25.camel@nexus.verbum.private> On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 13:57, seth vidal wrote: > > What I'm curious of is comments by people who still use XMMS, and why. > > What are the most important things to you that need to be fixed in > > Rhythmbox? > > > > I still use xmms b/c will run w/o skipping on my laptop (p3-550) > rhythmbox won't. Ok. Optimizing this is something we haven't really worked on much yet. Partially that's because it works fine on all my systems :) > xmms is less pretty but I typically queue up songs, put it on the last > desktop and leave it alone, so it's not a big deal. Do you find queuing songs in Rhythmbox to be more difficult? Right now you basically have to make a playlist if you want to do that. Which of these problems do you think is more important? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From link at subpop.net Wed Apr 21 18:11:10 2004 From: link at subpop.net (Link Dupont) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 11:11:10 -0700 Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <1082570261.12666.4.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082570261.12666.4.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> Message-ID: <1082571069.11291.3.camel@blue> On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 13:57 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > > What I'm curious of is comments by people who still use XMMS, and why. > > What are the most important things to you that need to be fixed in > > Rhythmbox? > > > > I still use xmms b/c will run w/o skipping on my laptop (p3-550) > rhythmbox won't. > > xmms is less pretty but I typically queue up songs, put it on the last > desktop and leave it alone, so it's not a big deal. My friend does this too. He uses quark for that. I realize that quark is very non-new-user-friendly, but it fits that use case. What about beep-media-player? I've taken a good long gander at it, and it does improve on some things that xmms has. Also, considered shipping Muine for a more minimalist music player? While Rhythmbox provides the full-fledged music management? > -sv > > > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Wed Apr 21 18:16:23 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 14:16:23 -0400 Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <1082570797.2438.25.camel@nexus.verbum.private> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082570261.12666.4.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1082570797.2438.25.camel@nexus.verbum.private> Message-ID: <1082571383.12666.7.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> > Ok. Optimizing this is something we haven't really worked on much yet. > Partially that's because it works fine on all my systems :) > > > xmms is less pretty but I typically queue up songs, put it on the last > > desktop and leave it alone, so it's not a big deal. > > Do you find queuing songs in Rhythmbox to be more difficult? Right now > you basically have to make a playlist if you want to do that. > > Which of these problems do you think is more important? Honestly I think the 'its slow on my older hardware' problem will eventually just go away :) I'd love to see a 'load these songs, and play them, don't load the full db' mode in rhythmbox - but I'm not sure that's in the design so... -sv From razvan.vilt at linux360.ro Wed Apr 21 18:17:03 2004 From: razvan.vilt at linux360.ro (Razvan Corneliu C.R. "d3vi1" VILT) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 21:17:03 +0300 Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> Message-ID: <1082571423.3045.19.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 13:48 -0400, Colin Walters wrote: > So our situation with music players is a little bad. Right now in the > menu we have "Music Player" and "Audio Player". The first is Rhythmbox, > the second is XMMS. A user new to Fedora is going to be baffled by this > - it's like having two clocks. > > Ideally we would only have one music player. I'm hoping to get > Rhythmbox in good enough shape for FC3 that it can replace XMMS for most > use cases. > > What I'm curious of is comments by people who still use XMMS, and why. > What are the most important things to you that need to be fixed in > Rhythmbox? Replacing is uninspired. Maybe move-it to more submenu and give it's name. Besides the lower resource consumption, one other argument is that it is soo similar to winamp2.x and 5.x for that matter. Wonderful plugins, support for themes and some other stuff. IMHO we should not replace an audio player with a jukebox software. We should have them both. Of course, Rhythmbox can be default. Also, totem is missing. This is a huge down-side. It should be in fedora, some gstreamer-plugins or xine back-end can be in livna provided that some message-box advises the user of what they should do to get them. If you want to drop xmms, IMHO, you should put Beep-Media-Player in it's place. Rhythmbox is also lacking some important stuff right now. It's usable, but it has no core/interface separation (for themability as most desktop users just love that eye-candy), no groovy plugins (equalizer, visualization, dsp, external-control) or at least plugins support. As a note: Why do people use winamp, when they have windows media player which does just that and more? Because the aproaches are different. P.S. Having an alternative is not bad. Beep-Media-Player look groovy. From walters at redhat.com Wed Apr 21 18:17:20 2004 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 14:17:20 -0400 Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <1082571069.11291.3.camel@blue> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082570261.12666.4.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1082571069.11291.3.camel@blue> Message-ID: <1082571440.2438.32.camel@nexus.verbum.private> On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 14:11, Link Dupont wrote: > My friend does this too. He uses quark for that. I realize that quark is very > non-new-user-friendly, but it fits that use case. Right. It's an important use case, and Rhythmbox just doesn't work for it at all right now. I talked with Seth the other day about how to fix it, and we've tossed around some ideas on rhythmbox-devel in the past, but it needs more thought. > What about beep-media-player? I've taken a good long gander at it, and > it does improve on some things that xmms has. I do think that if Rhythmbox didn't improve at all from where it is now, it would make sense to at least dump xmms and move to beep, if only because it's one less thing that uses GTK+ 1.2. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From bdpepple at ameritech.net Wed Apr 21 18:18:55 2004 From: bdpepple at ameritech.net (Brian Pepple) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 14:18:55 -0400 Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> Message-ID: <1082571535.10699.3.camel@hp.273piedmont.org> On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 13:48, Colin Walters wrote: > What I'm curious of is comments by people who still use XMMS, and why. > What are the most important things to you that need to be fixed in > Rhythmbox? I still use XMMS, since it's less CPU intensive than Rhythmbox. On an older machine Rhythmbox, tends to use too much resources. /B -- Brian Pepple -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From bdpepple at ameritech.net Wed Apr 21 18:27:06 2004 From: bdpepple at ameritech.net (Brian Pepple) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 14:27:06 -0400 Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <1082571069.11291.3.camel@blue> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082570261.12666.4.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1082571069.11291.3.camel@blue> Message-ID: <1082572025.10699.6.camel@hp.273piedmont.org> On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 14:11, Link Dupont wrote: > Also, considered shipping Muine for a more minimalist music player? Isn't Muine being written in Mono? /B -- Brian Pepple -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From nathan at silverorange.com Wed Apr 21 18:27:06 2004 From: nathan at silverorange.com (Nathan Fredrickson) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 14:27:06 -0400 Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> Message-ID: <1082572025.12369.347.camel@rocky> On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 13:48, Colin Walters wrote: > What I'm curious of is comments by people who still use XMMS, and why. > What are the most important things to you that need to be fixed in > Rhythmbox? I just took my first look at Rhythmbox to see if it could stream an MP3 over HTTP and most importantly seek within the stream. Unfortunately I just get an error I don't understand: "Failed to create mad element; check your installation". My usage pattern is probably non-standard, however my ideal player would: - stream audio files (such as MP3) over HTTP - seek within the stream using the HTTP Range header - support HTTP Authentication From walters at redhat.com Wed Apr 21 18:27:58 2004 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 14:27:58 -0400 Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <1082571535.10699.3.camel@hp.273piedmont.org> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082571535.10699.3.camel@hp.273piedmont.org> Message-ID: <1082572078.2438.37.camel@nexus.verbum.private> On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 14:18, Brian Pepple wrote: > On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 13:48, Colin Walters wrote: > > > What I'm curious of is comments by people who still use XMMS, and why. > > What are the most important things to you that need to be fixed in > > Rhythmbox? > > I still use XMMS, since it's less CPU intensive than Rhythmbox. On an > older machine Rhythmbox, tends to use too much resources. True. There's a few senses of "removal" - removal from the package set entirely, and just removal from the default installation, and removal from the default menu. I'm really only talking about the latter. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From hp at redhat.com Wed Apr 21 18:32:09 2004 From: hp at redhat.com (Havoc Pennington) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 14:32:09 -0400 Subject: desktop discussion Message-ID: <1082572328.2023.68.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hi, I've closed our internal desktop discussion list for new posts. Here are the topics we've discussed recently that should have been public: 1. Java/Mono - I moved this discussion to fairly public places ;-) Best to keep it off this list. 2. Hardware autoconfiguration. General goal is to autoconfigure hardware without user intervention or writing to /etc. This is the hal/dbus/ Project Utopia stuff. http://ometer.com/hardware.html 3. Deployment scenarios that avoid per-machine state, including read-only root fs copied from a central image, thin clients, and so forth. There was a discussion of this on fedora-devel. We don't have very detailed ideas yet. 4. Media players, Colin just posted on this. 5. Details of rearranging menus 6. Daniel Veillard is hacking on a per-user daemon to replace the FAM system daemon, primarily motivated by SELinux (FAM system daemon lets you violate the security boundaries) 7. The gconf multiple login question, which everyone is already familiar with sadly... Mark was having a look. Our OS desktop discussion is less than you might think, since most topics fall into an upstream project such as GNOME. If you're interested in the Fedora desktop I'd definitely recommend watching the project-specific forums as well. Hope this is helpful. Feel free to ask about specific development topics. Havoc From walters at redhat.com Wed Apr 21 18:31:20 2004 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 14:31:20 -0400 Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <1082572025.12369.347.camel@rocky> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082572025.12369.347.camel@rocky> Message-ID: <1082572280.2438.41.camel@nexus.verbum.private> On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 14:27, Nathan Fredrickson wrote: > On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 13:48, Colin Walters wrote: > > What I'm curious of is comments by people who still use XMMS, and why. > > What are the most important things to you that need to be fixed in > > Rhythmbox? > > I just took my first look at Rhythmbox to see if it could stream an MP3 > over HTTP and most importantly seek within the stream. Unfortunately I > just get an error I don't understand: "Failed to create mad element; > check your installation". Getting MP3 support in the FC1 Rhythmbox is not trivial, it involves both recompiling Rhythmbox and installing a GStreamer plugin. In FC2 it's a bit better - you just need the GStreamer plugin. > My usage pattern is probably non-standard, however my ideal player > would: > - stream audio files (such as MP3) over HTTP > - seek within the stream using the HTTP Range header Hmmm. So this isn't internet radio, you're just playing a static file? I think the gnome-vfs HTTP plugin doesn't support seeking. Once we fix that this should Just Work to add files over http to your library. > - support HTTP Authentication That should already be fixed in Rhythmbox 0.8.0, due to it being fixed in gnome-vfs. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From ms-nospam-0306 at arcor.de Wed Apr 21 18:32:55 2004 From: ms-nospam-0306 at arcor.de (Michael Schwendt) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 20:32:55 +0200 Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <1082572025.12369.347.camel@rocky> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082572025.12369.347.camel@rocky> Message-ID: <20040421203255.55acc6f5.ms-nospam-0306@arcor.de> On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 14:27:06 -0400, Nathan Fredrickson wrote: > On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 13:48, Colin Walters wrote: > > What I'm curious of is comments by people who still use XMMS, and why. > > What are the most important things to you that need to be fixed in > > Rhythmbox? > > I just took my first look at Rhythmbox to see if it could stream an MP3 > over HTTP and most importantly seek within the stream. Unfortunately I > just get an error I don't understand: "Failed to create mad element; > check your installation". This is a gstreamer plug-in error message which refers to the "MAD" mp3 codec software, which is not included in Fedora Core. For Fedora Core 1, a patched rhythmbox and a gstreamer-plugins-mp3 package are provided at http://rpm.livna.org From link at subpop.net Wed Apr 21 18:33:30 2004 From: link at subpop.net (Link Dupont) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 11:33:30 -0700 Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <1082572025.10699.6.camel@hp.273piedmont.org> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082570261.12666.4.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1082571069.11291.3.camel@blue> <1082572025.10699.6.camel@hp.273piedmont.org> Message-ID: <1082572410.11291.5.camel@blue> On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 14:27 -0400, Brian Pepple wrote: > On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 14:11, Link Dupont wrote: > > Also, considered shipping Muine for a more minimalist music player? > > Isn't Muine being written in Mono? Yes, I keep forgetting about the copyright issues around that. :( > /B > -- > Brian Pepple > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list From notting at redhat.com Wed Apr 21 19:10:21 2004 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 15:10:21 -0400 Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <1082571423.3045.19.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082571423.3045.19.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> Message-ID: <20040421191021.GC8531@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Razvan Corneliu C.R. d3vi1 VILT (razvan.vilt at linux360.ro) said: > Also, totem is missing. This is a huge down-side. It should be in > fedora, some gstreamer-plugins or xine back-end can be in livna provided > that some message-box advises the user of what they should do to get > them. No, sorry, can't legally do that. > If you want to drop xmms, IMHO, you should put Beep-Media-Player in it's > place. Beep's sole feature point is a hack port to GTK2, afaik. It wasn't a particularly clean or stable port when I looked at it. As for why I use xmms: 1) force of habit 2) smaller (both visually and memory wise) 3) doesn't skip (and this is on a 1.6Ghz box) 4) loads playlists MUCH faster Bill From notting at redhat.com Wed Apr 21 19:11:24 2004 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 15:11:24 -0400 Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <1082572078.2438.37.camel@nexus.verbum.private> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082571535.10699.3.camel@hp.273piedmont.org> <1082572078.2438.37.camel@nexus.verbum.private> Message-ID: <20040421191124.GD8531@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Colin Walters (walters at redhat.com) said: > True. There's a few senses of "removal" - removal from the package set > entirely, and just removal from the default installation, and removal > from the default menu. I'm really only talking about the latter. Removal from the default menu is wrong. If it's installed, it should be in the menu. For example, if it moved to extras, it would still have a menu item, obviously. So, if it's still in Core, it should still have a menu item, just not necessarily be in the default package set. Bill From hp at redhat.com Wed Apr 21 19:24:49 2004 From: hp at redhat.com (Havoc Pennington) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 15:24:49 -0400 Subject: shared calendar servers Message-ID: <1082575489.2023.78.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hi, We're interested in open source servers that might be interesting as shared calendar backends for Evolution. Know about opengroupware.org, egroupware.org, phpgroupware.org. Havoc From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Wed Apr 21 19:28:54 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 15:28:54 -0400 Subject: shared calendar servers In-Reply-To: <1082575489.2023.78.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1082575489.2023.78.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1082575734.12666.30.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 15:24, Havoc Pennington wrote: > Hi, > > We're interested in open source servers that might be interesting as > shared calendar backends for Evolution. > > Know about opengroupware.org, egroupware.org, phpgroupware.org. > What about interacting with osaf and the chandler project for the calendaring systems they are developing? -sv From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Wed Apr 21 19:31:35 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 15:31:35 -0400 Subject: desktop discussion In-Reply-To: <1082572328.2023.68.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1082572328.2023.68.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1082575895.12666.35.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> > 6. Daniel Veillard is hacking on a per-user daemon to replace > the FAM system daemon, primarily motivated by SELinux > (FAM system daemon lets you violate the security boundaries) What is it that fam is supposed to achieve? I know it does file change notification but I've never noticed a change in system behavior from when it is off or on. Is Daniel's work on line somewhere? > > 7. The gconf multiple login question, which everyone is already > familiar with sadly... Mark was having a look. What's been mark's take on this? Last thing I heard some discussion of application configuration storage daemon - possibly not gconfd based - but that sounded like deep in the future. thanks for the info. -sv From sflory at rackable.com Wed Apr 21 19:30:35 2004 From: sflory at rackable.com (Samuel Flory) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 12:30:35 -0700 Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> Message-ID: <4086CBDB.4020805@rackable.com> Colin Walters wrote: > So our situation with music players is a little bad. Right now in the > menu we have "Music Player" and "Audio Player". The first is Rhythmbox, > the second is XMMS. A user new to Fedora is going to be baffled by this > - it's like having two clocks. > > Ideally we would only have one music player. I'm hoping to get > Rhythmbox in good enough shape for FC3 that it can replace XMMS for most > use cases. > > What I'm curious of is comments by people who still use XMMS, and why. > What are the most important things to you that need to be fixed in > Rhythmbox? > > It takes up way too much space. I tend to use xmms and noatun as they are usable while shaded. That way I can have it always on top, and on every desktop without getting in the way. Rythmbox is not only completely useless shaded, but larger. Also I don't see an easy way to increase buffering to prevent skips. -- There is no such thing as obsolete hardware. Merely hardware that other people don't want. (The Second Rule of Hardware Acquisition) Sam Flory From nathan at silverorange.com Wed Apr 21 19:34:14 2004 From: nathan at silverorange.com (Nathan Fredrickson) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 15:34:14 -0400 Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <1082572280.2438.41.camel@nexus.verbum.private> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082572025.12369.347.camel@rocky> <1082572280.2438.41.camel@nexus.verbum.private> Message-ID: <1082576053.12369.365.camel@rocky> On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 14:31, Colin Walters wrote: > On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 14:27, Nathan Fredrickson wrote: > > I just took my first look at Rhythmbox to see if it could stream an MP3 > > over HTTP and most importantly seek within the stream. Unfortunately I > > just get an error I don't understand: "Failed to create mad element; > > check your installation". > > Getting MP3 support in the FC1 Rhythmbox is not trivial, it involves > both recompiling Rhythmbox and installing a GStreamer plugin. In FC2 > it's a bit better - you just need the GStreamer plugin. It wasn't too hard after all-- I installed gstreamer-plugins-mp3 from livna.org and MP3s play fine in FC1. No compiling necessary. > > My usage pattern is probably non-standard, however my ideal player > > would: > > - stream audio files (such as MP3) over HTTP > > - seek within the stream using the HTTP Range header > > Hmmm. So this isn't internet radio, you're just playing a static file? > I think the gnome-vfs HTTP plugin doesn't support seeking. Once we fix > that this should Just Work to add files over http to your library. Yes, I have a web-application on a remote server that produces MP3 files and M3U playlists of them. They are just static files accessible over HTTP. Now that I've got gstreamer-plugins-mp3, I see that Rhythmbox can play files over HTTP by selecting "New Internet Radio Station" and entering the URL there. You're right there's no seeking currently and yes, it would make more sense to add them to the Library than as a radio station. > > - support HTTP Authentication > > That should already be fixed in Rhythmbox 0.8.0, due to it being fixed > in gnome-vfs. Excellent, I'm looking forward to that too. From razvan.vilt at linux360.ro Wed Apr 21 19:36:34 2004 From: razvan.vilt at linux360.ro (Razvan Corneliu C.R. "d3vi1" VILT) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 22:36:34 +0300 Subject: Desktop issues discussion proposal Message-ID: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> Well... it seems like we have some small issues in the future path of the fedora core desktop (not only for fedora actually). 1) Menus. More is not the best solution, so it's out. We should try to create a replacement, because in some situations the menus are overwhelming. 2) How many applications doing the same thing do we need? Having too many applications can be confusing. A new user (especially one that comes from another OS or from an old Linux distribution version), would be confused and might not make the optimal choice for his situation. Think of how many music players we have, how many editors, how many mail clients. Should all these be in the equivalent of the now deprecated X-Red-Hat-Base? Should we even show all the applications we have installed or just the popular ones? A Microsoft style hide unused entries would be practical? Are there any other solutions, such as 2/3 level menu tree? Try and suggest also some other QUESTIONS and a date for a virtual meeting on irc to find/discuss answers to these. I don't recommend answering these questions right here/now. An irc chat would be more appropriate. Also if you want to have a chat on this, think of the time differences around the world (I'm in GMT+2), because it's evening when you guys have lunch, and it's waaaay past mid-night (closer to morning) when it's evening for you. These being said, I looking forward to a productive mind-storm on these topic, and not only. Best Regards, Razvan Corneliu C.R. "d3vi1" VILT Digital Vision - linux360 - Vision Project Maintainer From katzj at redhat.com Wed Apr 21 19:45:28 2004 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 15:45:28 -0400 Subject: desktop discussion In-Reply-To: <1082575895.12666.35.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> References: <1082572328.2023.68.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082575895.12666.35.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> Message-ID: <1082576727.14824.9.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 15:31 -0400, seth vidal wrote: > > 6. Daniel Veillard is hacking on a per-user daemon to replace > > the FAM system daemon, primarily motivated by SELinux > > (FAM system daemon lets you violate the security boundaries) > > > What is it that fam is supposed to achieve? I know it does file change > notification but I've never noticed a change in system behavior from > when it is off or on. Is Daniel's work on line somewhere? You should definitely notice a change with it off in rawhide. Install a new app, watch the gnome-vfs menu backend not notice the change and you get to kill gnome-panel to refresh your menus. Jeremy From hp at redhat.com Wed Apr 21 19:47:29 2004 From: hp at redhat.com (Havoc Pennington) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 15:47:29 -0400 Subject: desktop discussion In-Reply-To: <1082575895.12666.35.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> References: <1082572328.2023.68.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082575895.12666.35.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> Message-ID: <1082576849.2023.92.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 15:31, seth vidal wrote: > What is it that fam is supposed to achieve? I know it does file change > notification but I've never noticed a change in system behavior from > when it is off or on. Is Daniel's work on line somewhere? > I think it may be in GNOME CVS. FAM is used by various parts of the desktop, e.g. you need it for nautilus to notice if you move files around, and for the theme control panel to notice when you install a theme, and so forth. > > > > 7. The gconf multiple login question, which everyone is already > > familiar with sadly... Mark was having a look. > > What's been mark's take on this? Last thing I heard some discussion of > application configuration storage daemon - possibly not gconfd based - > but that sounded like deep in the future. Our idea was to merge all of /apps/metacity into one file, all of /apps/panel into one file, etc. That makes gconf equivalent to plain text files in terms of semantics. Mark already implemented it mostly. But we were getting stuck on the fact that then you can't share homedirs with old installations. Also, some apps have pretty deep trees under the level 1 directory, so the single file would be kinda huge. We could make it configurable, that's probably the right answer. Note that you can do this today using the gconf-merge-tree command to merge an existing ~/.gconf and then it will stay merged. Havoc From hp at redhat.com Wed Apr 21 19:49:57 2004 From: hp at redhat.com (Havoc Pennington) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 15:49:57 -0400 Subject: shared calendar servers In-Reply-To: <1082575734.12666.30.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> References: <1082575489.2023.78.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082575734.12666.30.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> Message-ID: <1082576997.2023.95.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 15:28, seth vidal wrote: > On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 15:24, Havoc Pennington wrote: > > Hi, > > > > We're interested in open source servers that might be interesting as > > shared calendar backends for Evolution. > > > > Know about opengroupware.org, egroupware.org, phpgroupware.org. > > > > What about interacting with osaf and the chandler project for the > calendaring systems they are developing? They mailed recently and asked if we could give them our thoughts on calendar server-side, and I said something like "ummm... our thoughts aren't very well-developed" ;-) but yeah, interested in working with them. Havoc From hp at redhat.com Wed Apr 21 19:50:58 2004 From: hp at redhat.com (Havoc Pennington) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 15:50:58 -0400 Subject: desktop discussion In-Reply-To: <1082576727.14824.9.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> References: <1082572328.2023.68.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082575895.12666.35.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1082576727.14824.9.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1082577058.2023.97.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 15:45, Jeremy Katz wrote: > > You should definitely notice a change with it off in rawhide. Install a > new app, watch the gnome-vfs menu backend not notice the change and you > get to kill gnome-panel to refresh your menus. I think that's just the new menu code sucking, I don't think it works with FAM enabled either :-P Havoc From katzj at redhat.com Wed Apr 21 19:52:42 2004 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 15:52:42 -0400 Subject: desktop discussion In-Reply-To: <1082577058.2023.97.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1082572328.2023.68.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082575895.12666.35.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1082576727.14824.9.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> <1082577058.2023.97.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1082577162.14824.12.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 15:50 -0400, Havoc Pennington wrote: > On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 15:45, Jeremy Katz wrote: > > You should definitely notice a change with it off in rawhide. Install a > > new app, watch the gnome-vfs menu backend not notice the change and you > > get to kill gnome-panel to refresh your menus. > > I think that's just the new menu code sucking, I don't think it works > with FAM enabled either :-P dcbw said it did. I was believing him at the time ;) Jeremy From notting at redhat.com Wed Apr 21 19:57:57 2004 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 15:57:57 -0400 Subject: Desktop issues discussion proposal In-Reply-To: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> References: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> Message-ID: <20040421195757.GE8531@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Razvan Corneliu C.R. d3vi1 VILT (razvan.vilt at linux360.ro) said: > Well... it seems like we have some small issues in the future path of > the fedora core desktop (not only for fedora actually). > 1) Menus. More is not the best solution, so it's out. We should try to > create a replacement, because in some situations the menus are > overwhelming. > 2) How many applications doing the same thing do we need? Having too > many applications can be confusing. A new user (especially one that > comes from another OS or from an old Linux distribution version), would > be confused and might not make the optimal choice for his situation. > Think of how many music players we have, how many editors, how many mail > clients. Should all these be in the equivalent of the now deprecated > X-Red-Hat-Base? Should we even show all the applications we have > installed or just the popular ones? A Microsoft style hide unused > entries would be practical? Are there any other solutions, such as 2/3 > level menu tree? This are related. The answer is generally to just move stuff out of Core, and into Extras. Eventually, if the user explicitly decides to install 20 mail clients, that's their own problem, but the default OS install shouldn't do this to them, yes. Bill From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Wed Apr 21 20:00:01 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 16:00:01 -0400 Subject: shared calendar servers In-Reply-To: <1082576997.2023.95.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1082575489.2023.78.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082575734.12666.30.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1082576997.2023.95.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1082577601.19684.18.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> > They mailed recently and asked if we could give them our thoughts on > calendar server-side, and I said something like "ummm... our thoughts > aren't very well-developed" ;-) but yeah, interested in working with > them. They're still in heavy devel but I think they'll be an interesting group to interact with. They've gotten some fairly serious backing from the common solutions group and their tie-in with I2 is something to think about when thinking about desktop deployments and calendars. Universities are interesting users of desktops - specifically of calendars. -sv From dawson at fnal.gov Wed Apr 21 20:00:55 2004 From: dawson at fnal.gov (Troy Dawson) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 15:00:55 -0500 Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <1082572078.2438.37.camel@nexus.verbum.private> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082571535.10699.3.camel@hp.273piedmont.org> <1082572078.2438.37.camel@nexus.verbum.private> Message-ID: <4086D2F7.7000907@fnal.gov> Colin Walters wrote: > On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 14:18, Brian Pepple wrote: > >>On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 13:48, Colin Walters wrote: >> >> >>>What I'm curious of is comments by people who still use XMMS, and why. >>>What are the most important things to you that need to be fixed in >>>Rhythmbox? >> >>I still use XMMS, since it's less CPU intensive than Rhythmbox. On an >>older machine Rhythmbox, tends to use too much resources. > > > True. There's a few senses of "removal" - removal from the package set > entirely, and just removal from the default installation, and removal > from the default menu. I'm really only talking about the latter. > > I use XMMS. Why? It just feels right to me. I've tried alot of others, and I make sure that I try them for at least a week. But in the end, I have always ended up with XMMS. Either for the feel, for the plugin's etc. Would I be upset if it was taken from the distro? yes Would I be upset if it was taken from the main menu? No. I do think it's a little confusing to have both in the main menu. I think a new user would be happy with Rhythmbox. I think also that a user that is already used to XMMS and wants to play it, is going to go for that extra effort to find it. So my final 2 cents worth is yes, pull xmms from the main menu, and even from being installed by default if that is needed. Just don't take it from the distribution. Troy -- __________________________________________________ Troy Dawson dawson at fnal.gov (630)840-6468 Fermilab ComputingDivision/CSS CSI Group __________________________________________________ From dcbw at redhat.com Wed Apr 21 20:04:45 2004 From: dcbw at redhat.com (Dan Williams) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 16:04:45 -0400 Subject: Desktop issues discussion proposal In-Reply-To: <20040421195757.GE8531@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <20040421195757.GE8531@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1082577884.2844.10.camel@dcbw.boston.redhat.com> There's also fedora-desktop-list, perhaps discussions like this would work better there? There's actually a discussion going on there right now about the # of music players that are in our menus. Dan On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 15:57 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Razvan Corneliu C.R. d3vi1 VILT (razvan.vilt at linux360.ro) said: > > Well... it seems like we have some small issues in the future path of > > the fedora core desktop (not only for fedora actually). > > 1) Menus. More is not the best solution, so it's out. We should try to > > create a replacement, because in some situations the menus are > > overwhelming. > > 2) How many applications doing the same thing do we need? Having too > > many applications can be confusing. A new user (especially one that > > comes from another OS or from an old Linux distribution version), would > > be confused and might not make the optimal choice for his situation. > > Think of how many music players we have, how many editors, how many mail > > clients. Should all these be in the equivalent of the now deprecated > > X-Red-Hat-Base? Should we even show all the applications we have > > installed or just the popular ones? A Microsoft style hide unused > > entries would be practical? Are there any other solutions, such as 2/3 > > level menu tree? > > This are related. The answer is generally to just move stuff out of > Core, and into Extras. Eventually, if the user explicitly decides > to install 20 mail clients, that's their own problem, but the default > OS install shouldn't do this to them, yes. > > Bill > > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list From dcbw at redhat.com Wed Apr 21 20:06:30 2004 From: dcbw at redhat.com (Dan Williams) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 16:06:30 -0400 Subject: desktop discussion In-Reply-To: <1082577162.14824.12.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> References: <1082572328.2023.68.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082575895.12666.35.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1082576727.14824.9.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> <1082577058.2023.97.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082577162.14824.12.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1082577989.2844.12.camel@dcbw.boston.redhat.com> Jeremey, I said I was _working_ on it :) It invalidates 2 out of the 3 caches that need to be invalidated right now, but unfortunately, the 3rd cache is the "money cache", and quite elusive. Dan On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 15:52 -0400, Jeremy Katz wrote: > On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 15:50 -0400, Havoc Pennington wrote: > > On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 15:45, Jeremy Katz wrote: > > > You should definitely notice a change with it off in rawhide. Install a > > > new app, watch the gnome-vfs menu backend not notice the change and you > > > get to kill gnome-panel to refresh your menus. > > > > I think that's just the new menu code sucking, I don't think it works > > with FAM enabled either :-P > > dcbw said it did. I was believing him at the time ;) > > Jeremy > > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Wed Apr 21 20:09:20 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 16:09:20 -0400 Subject: desktop discussion In-Reply-To: <1082577989.2844.12.camel@dcbw.boston.redhat.com> References: <1082572328.2023.68.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082575895.12666.35.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1082576727.14824.9.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> <1082577058.2023.97.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082577162.14824.12.camel@orodruin.boston.redhat.com> <1082577989.2844.12.camel@dcbw.boston.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1082578160.19684.30.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 16:06, Dan Williams wrote: > Jeremey, > > I said I was _working_ on it :) It invalidates 2 out of the 3 caches > that need to be invalidated right now, but unfortunately, the 3rd cache > is the "money cache", and quite elusive. there's a money cache!?! Fantastic! ok, I'll stop now. -sv From mdraghi at prosud.com Wed Apr 21 20:23:40 2004 From: mdraghi at prosud.com (Mariano Draghi) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 17:23:40 -0300 Subject: Desktop issues discussion proposal In-Reply-To: <20040421195757.GE8531@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <20040421195757.GE8531@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: > > This are related. The answer is generally to just move stuff out of > Core, and into Extras. Eventually, if the user explicitly decides > to install 20 mail clients, that's their own problem, but the default > OS install shouldn't do this to them, yes. > This is easy with some applications, and _very_ difficult with others. Take the (recent) example of Rythmbox vs XMMS f.i. And the same goes with Evolution vs KMail vs Mozilla Mail/Thunderbird. Right now, each of them has is strenghts, and there would be plenty of users that even for historical reasons will hate Fedora if we take out "their" e-mail client. Which one is the good default? Why? I think that for some kind of applications, we should provide in Anaconda a list of choices, clearly specifying a recommended default: Which e-mail client would you like to install? [x] Evolution (recommended) [ ] Mozilla Mail [ ] KMail ... So the newbie can press [Next] and go on with the default, and the more advanced user (or just somebody a little more used to Linux) can clearly identify the default and change it for his own choice, or even choose (and install) all of them. Besides, it would be nice to have some config tool to setup/change the default _after_ the installation, and this tool could take care of the MIME types, and menu auto-reconfiguration (i.e. move the new default e-mail client to the main menu, and the others (if any) to the extras). -- Mariano From nandox7 at myrealbox.com Thu Apr 22 00:05:00 2004 From: nandox7 at myrealbox.com (Nando) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 01:05:00 +0100 Subject: Usb storage icon. Message-ID: <000e01c427fd$753cbb20$0901a8c0@frozzen.com> Hi, does anyone have made or have seen a icon, that could apply to a usb storage device? Like a usb pen drive. Giving preference to an approach to the bluecurve theme. Thank you, Nando -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From helios82 at optushome.com.au Thu Apr 22 00:47:20 2004 From: helios82 at optushome.com.au (Matt Hansen) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 10:47:20 +1000 Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> Message-ID: <1082594840.24703.1.camel@fc1> On Thu, 2004-04-22 at 03:48, Colin Walters wrote: > So our situation with music players is a little bad. Right now in the > menu we have "Music Player" and "Audio Player". The first is Rhythmbox, > the second is XMMS. A user new to Fedora is going to be baffled by this > - it's like having two clocks. > > Ideally we would only have one music player. I'm hoping to get > Rhythmbox in good enough shape for FC3 that it can replace XMMS for most > use cases. > > What I'm curious of is comments by people who still use XMMS, and why. > What are the most important things to you that need to be fixed in > Rhythmbox? Hi Colin, Well here's my opinion. Apart from it using less CPU resources, I can find nothing else I personally like about it. For a start, it is _way_ to small. I need to basically squint real close to see things. (And yes, my eyesight is fine. ;) I also know there's the Ctrl-D combo to make it larger, but on my screen, this looks real ugly. Second, there UI is horrible. How can anyone like the controls and navigations in this? Having to click a non-obvious drop-down button to get to the menu items is far from desired for a new user. And like many audio players, it's inundated with preferences and settings that most users have no need for. Rythmbox is growing on me more and more these days. I use it for all my mp3'ing/ogg'ing etc. It is a shame to have to retrieve gnome-plugins to make it mp3able but hey, do it once and that's it. And it's for a better cause with Fedora's goals which I agree and admire. :) Someone commented on it taking too much space. Well I disagree. There's a great taskbar feature used with Rythmbox and other software that places an icon there whereby you can click the taskbar icon to open or hide the player completely! I love this feature and wish more apps would do this. Also saves panel space. Another thing I like is the ability to right-click an audio file and "add to music album" or somesuch. A couple things I'm not so fussed on (maybe due to lack of knowledge) is that is not able to play _one_ song without it jumping to the next, i.e. it's always in playlist mode (which is great, but sometimes I only want to play one song). Any way to change that? Also, there's a lack of control buttons it seems. There's currently "go to next song" go to previous" and "play/pause". What about stop? Overall, I'm happy with it, and it's much more UI friendly which I feel is better. So, I'm one for not caring if xmms is not installed by default or is replaced. Heh, apologies for the length.. Regards, -Matt -- "Would you buy a car with the hood welded shut?" - Bob Young on the benefits of the open source development model. mhelios - www.fedoraforum.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From helios82 at optushome.com.au Thu Apr 22 01:11:18 2004 From: helios82 at optushome.com.au (Matt Hansen) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 11:11:18 +1000 Subject: desktop discussion In-Reply-To: <1082576849.2023.92.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1082572328.2023.68.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082575895.12666.35.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1082576849.2023.92.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1082596278.24703.8.camel@fc1> On Thu, 2004-04-22 at 05:47, Havoc Pennington wrote: > On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 15:31, seth vidal wrote: > > What is it that fam is supposed to achieve? I know it does file change > > notification but I've never noticed a change in system behavior from > > when it is off or on. Is Daniel's work on line somewhere? > > > > I think it may be in GNOME CVS. FAM is used by various parts of the > desktop, e.g. you need it for nautilus to notice if you move files > around, and for the theme control panel to notice when you install a > theme, and so forth. Well, is it supposed to notice new files downloaded to a directory? For example, if I d/l files to a directory, and have an open nautilus window in that dir, I have to manually "reload" the window before the new file shows, no matter if sgi_fam is on or not. Ok, I have to ask, what's the status for GNOME menu editing? What state will it be in for FC2 and which release do you foresee full functionality for this? Regards, -Matt -- "Would you buy a car with the hood welded shut?" - Bob Young on the benefits of the open source development model. mhelios - www.fedoraforum.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From nomis80 at nomis80.org Thu Apr 22 01:39:30 2004 From: nomis80 at nomis80.org (Simon Perreault) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 21:39:30 -0400 Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> Message-ID: <200404212139.30934.nomis80@nomis80.org> On April 21, 2004 13:48, Colin Walters wrote: > So our situation with music players is a little bad. Right now in the > menu we have "Music Player" and "Audio Player". The first is Rhythmbox, > the second is XMMS. A user new to Fedora is going to be baffled by this > - it's like having two clocks. ...which is not a bad thing, and some people would even like to have three, with the un-exclusion of JuK from KDE 3.2. -- Simon Perreault -- http://nomis80.org From hp at redhat.com Thu Apr 22 02:01:07 2004 From: hp at redhat.com (Havoc Pennington) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 22:01:07 -0400 Subject: desktop discussion In-Reply-To: <1082596278.24703.8.camel@fc1> References: <1082572328.2023.68.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082575895.12666.35.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1082576849.2023.92.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082596278.24703.8.camel@fc1> Message-ID: <1082599266.2129.50.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 21:11, Matt Hansen wrote: > Well, is it supposed to notice new files downloaded to a directory? For > example, if I d/l files to a directory, and have an open nautilus window > in that dir, I have to manually "reload" the window before the new file > shows, no matter if sgi_fam is on or not. > That should work, it's always worked for me. Could be hosed by selinux or something perhaps. > Ok, I have to ask, what's the status for GNOME menu editing? What state > will it be in for FC2 and which release do you foresee full > functionality for this? In FC2 the menus will use the documented freedesktop.org specification which is reasonable to edit with a text editor if you're an admin setting up a default user session. For the users themselves, longer term one line of thought is to just have a way to enable/disable menu items, and perhaps Favorites, I guess. But maybe Dan will get the nautilus editing to work, or GNOME upstream will do something else. Havoc From pabos at glypsube.org Thu Apr 22 03:00:20 2004 From: pabos at glypsube.org (Patrick) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 20:00:20 -0700 Subject: shared calendar servers Message-ID: <1082602820.19881.134.camel@glypsube.org> I did some looking around for a calendar server at one point in the recent past and came up with a short list. OPEN SOURCE ----------- U of Washington Calendar Server (UW Calendar) http://www.washington.edu/ucal Language: Java (1.4) Last release: 1.3 (Jan 2004) License: BSD-style (and contributers must sign over copyright to UW) Dependencies: Tomcat (servlet container) Status: some working functionality but incomplete jical http://jical.sourceforge.net/ Language: Java (1.4) License: LGPL Dependencies: - Uses JBoss. Implementation: - Publishing/reading iCal files from URIs. Chandler Calendar engineering page http://wiki.osafoundation.org/twiki/bin/view/Chandler/CalendarCapplet Horde (esp. Kronolith) http://www.horde.org/kronolith/ webcalendar http://www.k5n.us/webcalendar.php phpGroupware http://www.phpgroupware.org http://opengroupware.org/ http://opengroupware.org/en/projects/evolution/index.html egroupware.org phpicalendar http://phpicalendar.sourceforge.net/nuke/ - read-only, see http://phpicalendar.sourceforge.net/nuke/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=15 kroupware.org / kolab (OpenLDAP, Postfix, Cyrus IMAP, ProFTP) PREMATURE/ABORTED ATTEMPTS OR DISCUSSION ---------------------------------------- softwarestudio.org discussion some design notes in the middle of a longer thread http://www.softwarestudio.org/mail-archives/libical/0429.html Momentum http://www.softwarestudio.org/mail-archives/libical/0426.html evolution discussion (Apr 2003) http://lists.ximian.com/archives/public/evolution-hackers/2003-April/000241.html PROPRIETARY ----------- Netscape Calendar Server Sun ONE Calendar Server gordana calendar server Sendmail calendar server (defunct or integrated) Oracle Calendar Server incorporated "Corporate Time" by Steltor Novell Groupwise Novell NetMail Microsoft Exchange SuSe OpenExchange Brown Bear iCal Bynari Insight Server (proprietary glue?) (built using Apache/ProFTPd/Postfix/OpenLDAP/Cyrus IMAP) XC Connect Lotus (IBM) must have something in an integrated suite STANDARDS --------- http://www.imc.org/ietf-calendar/index.html iCalendar/iCal (RFC2445) http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2445.txt xCal (iCalendar DTD document) http://xml.coverpages.org/iCal.html Calendar Server Extensions for WebDAV (CalDAV) http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/draft-dusseault-caldav-00.html iTIP (RFC 2446) Transport-independent Interoperability protocol http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2446.txt iMIP (RFC 2447) Message-based Interoperability Protocol http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2447.txt Calendar Access Protocol (CAP) transport over BEEP http://www.beepcore.org/beepcore/home.jsp http://beepcore.org/beepcore/docs/profile-cap.html ICAP (extension of IMAP 4 to support CAP) http://www.wirs.aber.ac.uk/spk/Diary/icap-draft.htm#Overview LIBRARIES ---------------- libical (C) - LGPL/MPL http://www.softwarestudio.org/libical/ beepcore-c - BSD-like beepcore-tcl beepcore-Java http://www.beepcore.org/beepcore/home.jsp NECESSARY FEATURES ------------------ * Single-Sign On (usually via Directory integration) * user management via "addressbook users" rather than "system users" * Group scheduling/Meeting creation * Resource scheduling (ie. room availability, notebook checkout...) * Free/busy time * Merging of multiple calendars * import/export iCal * synchronization: * to handhelds/phone * to notebook * to other calendar servers * notification/reminder mechanism AUTHENTICATION -------------- pGina http://pgina.xpasystems.com/ Replaces 2000/XP authentication system with a PAM-like equivalent. ie. allow Windows clients to authenticate against OpenLDAP/Kerberos? -- Patrick From linux at bytebot.net Thu Apr 22 03:02:01 2004 From: linux at bytebot.net (Colin Charles) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 13:02:01 +1000 Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <20040421191124.GD8531@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082571535.10699.3.camel@hp.273piedmont.org> <1082572078.2438.37.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <20040421191124.GD8531@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1082602921.6063.343.camel@hermione> On Thu, 2004-04-22 at 05:11, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > True. There's a few senses of "removal" - removal from the package set > > entirely, and just removal from the default installation, and removal > > from the default menu. I'm really only talking about the latter. > > Removal from the default menu is wrong. Or we can bring back the Extras menu (or under Sound & Video -> More Sound & Video Applications), and give it its actual name - we'll call it XMMS > If it's installed, it should be in the menu. For example, if it > moved to extras, it would still have a menu item, obviously. So, > if it's still in Core, it should still have a menu item, just not > necessarily be in the default package set. Yes, if installed, a menu item should exist -- Colin Charles, byte at aeon.com.my http://www.bytebot.net/ From nphilipp at redhat.com Thu Apr 22 09:05:53 2004 From: nphilipp at redhat.com (Nils Philippsen) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 11:05:53 +0200 Subject: Usb storage icon. In-Reply-To: <000e01c427fd$753cbb20$0901a8c0@frozzen.com> References: <000e01c427fd$753cbb20$0901a8c0@frozzen.com> Message-ID: <1082624753.3779.12.camel@gibraltar.stuttgart.redhat.com> On Thu, 2004-04-22 at 02:05, Nando wrote: > Hi, > > does anyone have made or have seen a icon, that could apply to a usb > storage device? Like a usb pen drive. > Giving preference to an approach to the bluecurve theme. On FC1 or FC2test, put an entry (doesn't matter what, a bind mount will suffice) into /etc/fstab that mounts something on /mnt/memstick. Mount it and if you run GNOME, it will have a nice PCB like icon for it. Unfortunately the one for /mnt/flash is rather boring -- where is it configured what icon gets used for what mount point? Nils -- Nils Philippsen / Red Hat / nphilipp at redhat.com "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- B. Franklin, 1759 PGP fingerprint: C4A8 9474 5C4C ADE3 2B8F 656D 47D8 9B65 6951 3011 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From feliciano.matias at free.fr Thu Apr 22 11:05:21 2004 From: feliciano.matias at free.fr (Matias Feliciano) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 13:05:21 +0200 Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <1082602921.6063.343.camel@hermione> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082571535.10699.3.camel@hp.273piedmont.org> <1082572078.2438.37.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <20040421191124.GD8531@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1082602921.6063.343.camel@hermione> Message-ID: <1082631921.11612.188.camel@localhost.localdomain> Le jeu 22/04/2004 ? 05:02, Colin Charles a ?crit : > On Thu, 2004-04-22 at 05:11, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > > True. There's a few senses of "removal" - removal from the package set > > > entirely, and just removal from the default installation, and removal > > > from the default menu. I'm really only talking about the latter. > > > > Removal from the default menu is wrong. > > Or we can bring back the Extras menu No. I don't want the extra step "Extras menu". If i want xmms in the menu : $ rpm -i|yum install|system-config-package|... xmms If i don't want xmms : $ rpm -e xmms Why should we have entries in the menu if we don't use them ? Why add an extra step for an application that the user use ? Set the best default and then let users to add their preferred applications and remove some default applications if they don't use them. > (or under Sound & Video -> More > Sound & Video Applications), and give it its actual name - we'll call it > XMMS > > > If it's installed, it should be in the menu. For example, if it > > moved to extras, it would still have a menu item, obviously. So, > > if it's still in Core, it should still have a menu item, just not > > necessarily be in the default package set. > > Yes, if installed, a menu item should exist +1000 > -- > Colin Charles, byte at aeon.com.my > http://www.bytebot.net/ > From nphilipp at redhat.com Thu Apr 22 12:34:45 2004 From: nphilipp at redhat.com (Nils Philippsen) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 14:34:45 +0200 Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <1082631921.11612.188.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082571535.10699.3.camel@hp.273piedmont.org> <1082572078.2438.37.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <20040421191124.GD8531@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1082602921.6063.343.camel@hermione> <1082631921.11612.188.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1082637285.15153.3.camel@gibraltar.stuttgart.redhat.com> On Thu, 2004-04-22 at 13:05, Matias Feliciano wrote: > I don't want the extra step "Extras menu". > > If i want xmms in the menu : > $ rpm -i|yum install|system-config-package|... xmms > > If i don't want xmms : > $ rpm -e xmms > > > Why should we have entries in the menu if we don't use them ? Because other people on the same box would want to use them? What you really want to complain about is the lack of a decent means of editing the menus ;-). Nils -- Nils Philippsen / Red Hat / nphilipp at redhat.com "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- B. Franklin, 1759 PGP fingerprint: C4A8 9474 5C4C ADE3 2B8F 656D 47D8 9B65 6951 3011 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From czar at czarc.net Thu Apr 22 13:43:17 2004 From: czar at czarc.net (Gene C.) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 09:43:17 -0400 Subject: Desktop issues discussion proposal In-Reply-To: <20040421195757.GE8531@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <20040421195757.GE8531@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <200404220943.17132.czar@czarc.net> On Wednesday 21 April 2004 15:57, Bill Nottingham wrote: > This are related. The answer is generally to just move stuff out of > Core, and into Extras. Eventually, if the user explicitly decides > to install 20 mail clients, that's their own problem, but the default > OS install shouldn't do this to them, yes. How are packages which are gnome oriented versus kde oriented going to be handled? I think it makes a lot of sense to have a single "main" package for a function with others available in Fedora Extras. This keeps it simple for a user who just want a basic, working system while still providing options for those who want them. However, that still leaves packages which are closely tied to gnome and kde. For example, the mail client of choice is evolution (at least that is the message I am getting). But kde has kmail (my personal choice) which is also packaged as part of kdenetwork. Then there is sylpheed which I believe should be moved to extras. Should kdenetwork be split so kmail is not included but instead moved to Extras? This has to be a management nightmare. Of course, all of kde could be moved to Extras (or all of gnome), but I do not see that happening. I believe that there will remain some functions which will have multiple packages available as part of Fedora Core. The problem is to keep those to a small enough set so we can keep our sanity. -- Gene From feliciano.matias at free.fr Thu Apr 22 14:07:04 2004 From: feliciano.matias at free.fr (Matias Feliciano) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 16:07:04 +0200 Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <1082637285.15153.3.camel@gibraltar.stuttgart.redhat.com> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082571535.10699.3.camel@hp.273piedmont.org> <1082572078.2438.37.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <20040421191124.GD8531@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1082602921.6063.343.camel@hermione> <1082631921.11612.188.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082637285.15153.3.camel@gibraltar.stuttgart.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1082642824.11612.260.camel@localhost.localdomain> Le jeu 22/04/2004 ? 14:34, Nils Philippsen a ?crit : > On Thu, 2004-04-22 at 13:05, Matias Feliciano wrote: > > > Why should we have entries in the menu if we don't use them ? > > Because other people on the same box would want to use them? What you > really want to complain about is the lack of a decent means of editing > the menus ;-). > Menu editing is a good answers for the question : Why should I have entries in the menu if I don't use them ? :-) From mdraghi at prosud.com Thu Apr 22 14:39:37 2004 From: mdraghi at prosud.com (Mariano Draghi) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 11:39:37 -0300 Subject: Mozilla theme? Message-ID: Hi, Currently I'm using Mozilla on FC1 with a 3rd party BlueCurve theme that was mentioned in this list a few times (which looks _very_ nice btw) Now I learned that the new Linux GTK2 Mozilla builds (since version 1.7b) are more "OS theme-friendly", so to speak. I also learned --through this list-- that there is a BlueCurve icon set for Mozilla Firefox in development. I wonder how this is going to be managed in FC2... are we finally going to have a _default_ BlueCurve Theme for Mozilla? (please! That 'Classic' Mozilla theme looks _really_ bad!!!) FireFox is going to be part of FC2? If so, which one is going to be the default? Mozilla or Firefox? The new icon set is FireFox-only or it's going to be used for Mozilla suite too? Maybe some of my questions should be asked in the fedora-devel list, but please, at least I'd like some hear something about the planned Mozilla look-and-feel! Thanks for any inputs, -- Mariano From Nandox7 at myrealbox.com Thu Apr 22 15:10:39 2004 From: Nandox7 at myrealbox.com (Nandox7) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 16:10:39 +0100 Subject: Usb storage icon. Message-ID: <1082646639.9f2b115cNandox7@myrealbox.com> Well the problem is not the mounting and the icon popup's in the gnome desktop. That works with no problem, i'm just trying to find an icon, for an app that i'm trying to do, that deals with usb storage devices. -----Original Message----- From: Nils Philippsen To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 11:05:53 +0200 Subject: Re: Usb storage icon. On Thu, 2004-04-22 at 02:05, Nando wrote: > Hi, > > does anyone have made or have seen a icon, that could apply to a usb > storage device? Like a usb pen drive. > Giving preference to an approach to the bluecurve theme. On FC1 or FC2test, put an entry (doesn't matter what, a bind mount will suffice) into /etc/fstab that mounts something on /mnt/memstick. Mount it and if you run GNOME, it will have a nice PCB like icon for it. Unfortunately the one for /mnt/flash is rather boring -- where is it configured what icon gets used for what mount point? Nils -- Nils Philippsen / Red Hat / nphilipp at redhat.com "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- B. Franklin, 1759 PGP fingerprint: C4A8 9474 5C4C ADE3 2B8F 656D 47D8 9B65 6951 3011 From czar at czarc.net Thu Apr 22 15:45:37 2004 From: czar at czarc.net (Gene C.) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 11:45:37 -0400 Subject: Desktop issues discussion proposal In-Reply-To: <20040421195757.GE8531@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <20040421195757.GE8531@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <200404221145.37305.czar@czarc.net> On Wednesday 21 April 2004 15:57, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Razvan Corneliu C.R. d3vi1 VILT (razvan.vilt at linux360.ro) said: > > Well... it seems like we have some small issues in the future path of > > the fedora core desktop (not only for fedora actually). > > 1) Menus. More is not the best solution, so it's out. We should try to > > create a replacement, because in some situations the menus are > > overwhelming. > > 2) How many applications doing the same thing do we need? Having too > > many applications can be confusing. A new user (especially one that > > comes from another OS or from an old Linux distribution version), would > > be confused and might not make the optimal choice for his situation. > > Think of how many music players we have, how many editors, how many mail > > clients. Should all these be in the equivalent of the now deprecated > > X-Red-Hat-Base? Should we even show all the applications we have > > installed or just the popular ones? A Microsoft style hide unused > > entries would be practical? Are there any other solutions, such as 2/3 > > level menu tree? > > This are related. The answer is generally to just move stuff out of > Core, and into Extras. Eventually, if the user explicitly decides > to install 20 mail clients, that's their own problem, but the default > OS install shouldn't do this to them, yes. Some additional thought (besides what I posted in my other message): How about the multiple desktops supported (gnome/metacity, gnome/sawfish, kde, xfce)? How about upgrade support? What happens during an upgrade when something (lets take sawfish) is moved from Fedora Core to Fedora Extras? Will this break upgrade. Some time ago there was a message posted to the fedora-config-list about a new package management tool: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/config-tools/specs/redhat-config-packages I believe such a tool may be necessary in order to do any shuffling of packages between Core and Extras (especially from Core to Extras). -- Gene From razvan.vilt at linux360.ro Thu Apr 22 15:55:53 2004 From: razvan.vilt at linux360.ro (Razvan Corneliu C.R. "d3vi1" VILT) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 18:55:53 +0300 Subject: Desktop issues discussion proposal In-Reply-To: <200404221145.37305.czar@czarc.net> References: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <20040421195757.GE8531@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <200404221145.37305.czar@czarc.net> Message-ID: <1082649352.30312.3.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> > > Some time ago there was a message posted to the fedora-config-list about a new > package management tool: > http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/config-tools/specs/redhat-config-packages > > I believe such a tool may be necessary in order to do any shuffling of > packages between Core and Extras (especially from Core to Extras). That tool exists for some time. It's called system-config-packages lately. The downside is that it simply doesn't do all that yet. From czar at czarc.net Thu Apr 22 16:10:39 2004 From: czar at czarc.net (Gene C.) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 12:10:39 -0400 Subject: Desktop issues discussion proposal In-Reply-To: <1082649352.30312.3.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> References: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <200404221145.37305.czar@czarc.net> <1082649352.30312.3.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> Message-ID: <200404221210.39225.czar@czarc.net> On Thursday 22 April 2004 11:55, Razvan Corneliu C.R. \ wrote: > > Some time ago there was a message posted to the fedora-config-list about > > a new package management tool: > > http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/config-tools/specs/redhat-config-packag > >es > > > > I believe such a tool may be necessary in order to do any shuffling of > > packages between Core and Extras (especially from Core to Extras). > > That tool exists for some time. It's called system-config-packages > lately. The downside is that it simply doesn't do all that yet. It has been doing what it currently does for a long time not ... even when it is named redhat-config-packages. The network stuff would be nice but it is the individual package installation/removal that is needed (at least by me). There was a point (in the FC1 development cycle IIRC) where x-config-packages could install (and remove?) individual package but this got dropped because of some problems. At the time there was come comments to the effect of "we really need to do this right and redesign the whole thing with system-config-packages and up2date merging" (IIRC). Up2date has "some" of the needed functionality (install but not remove) with the --show-package-dialog command line option. But this is currently broken in that it only works if you have pending updates too (otherwise it says your system is up-to-date). -- Gene From tony at tgds.net Thu Apr 22 16:41:56 2004 From: tony at tgds.net (Tony Grant) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 18:41:56 +0200 Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> Message-ID: <1082652116.14007.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> Le mer 21/04/2004 ? 19:48, Colin Walters a ?crit : > So our situation with music players is a little bad. Right now in the > menu we have "Music Player" and "Audio Player". The first is Rhythmbox, > the second is XMMS. A user new to Fedora is going to be baffled by this > - it's like having two clocks. What is wrong with two clocks? > Ideally we would only have one music player. I'm hoping to get > Rhythmbox in good enough shape for FC3 that it can replace XMMS for most > use cases. Good luck... > What I'm curious of is comments by people who still use XMMS, and why. > What are the most important things to you that need to be fixed in > Rhythmbox? Because it plays music! Rhythmbox can't find the Mad plugin so it is kind of quiet on my machine... In fact it is "yum remove rhythmbox"! When I need a juke box I use iTunes on the G3 under my desk. Cheers Tony Grant -- www.tgds.net Library management software toolkit From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Thu Apr 22 16:50:03 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 12:50:03 -0400 Subject: Desktop issues discussion proposal In-Reply-To: <200404221210.39225.czar@czarc.net> References: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <200404221145.37305.czar@czarc.net> <1082649352.30312.3.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <200404221210.39225.czar@czarc.net> Message-ID: <1082652602.9297.34.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> > The network stuff would be nice but it is the individual package > installation/removal that is needed (at least by me). > > There was a point (in the FC1 development cycle IIRC) where x-config-packages > could install (and remove?) individual package but this got dropped because > of some problems. At the time there was come comments to the effect of "we > really need to do this right and redesign the whole thing with > system-config-packages and up2date merging" (IIRC). > I think a lot of system-config-packages is going to be the subject of a discussion sometime soon b/t me and katz and others. Specifically, figuring out if we can make s-c-p frontend for yum in an intelligent way. -sv From notting at redhat.com Thu Apr 22 16:57:00 2004 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 12:57:00 -0400 Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <1082652116.14007.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082652116.14007.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20040422165700.GB6351@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Tony Grant (tony at tgds.net) said: > Le mer 21/04/2004 ? 19:48, Colin Walters a ?crit : > > So our situation with music players is a little bad. Right now in the > > menu we have "Music Player" and "Audio Player". The first is Rhythmbox, > > the second is XMMS. A user new to Fedora is going to be baffled by this > > - it's like having two clocks. > > What is wrong with two clocks? http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/ut1_report/customization_tasks.html Bill From czar at czarc.net Thu Apr 22 17:08:08 2004 From: czar at czarc.net (Gene C.) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 13:08:08 -0400 Subject: Desktop issues discussion proposal In-Reply-To: <1082652602.9297.34.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> References: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <200404221210.39225.czar@czarc.net> <1082652602.9297.34.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> Message-ID: <200404221308.08139.czar@czarc.net> On Thursday 22 April 2004 12:50, seth vidal wrote: > > The network stuff would be nice but it is the individual package > > installation/removal that is needed (at least by me). > > > > There was a point (in the FC1 development cycle IIRC) where > > x-config-packages could install (and remove?) individual package but this > > got dropped because of some problems. At the time there was come > > comments to the effect of "we really need to do this right and redesign > > the whole thing with > > system-config-packages and up2date merging" (IIRC). > > I think a lot of system-config-packages is going to be the subject of a > discussion sometime soon b/t me and katz and others. Specifically, > figuring out if we can make s-c-p frontend for yum in an intelligent > way. Yes! This is the obvious (to me) solution for accessing packages via the network is yum ... why reinvent things when you have a good capability. Now, the rest of the story ... handing installation of individual new packages as well as removal of individual installed packages (including removing selected installed kernels). While the current package groupings can work for many, they do not work for everyone. The manual effort of removing packages from an everything install or installing additional packages from a selected install if very time consuming. The package management tool (at least as described in http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/config-tools/specs/redhat-config-packages ) looks like it would be very close to addressing my needs. -- Gene From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Thu Apr 22 17:12:58 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 13:12:58 -0400 Subject: Desktop issues discussion proposal In-Reply-To: <200404221308.08139.czar@czarc.net> References: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <200404221210.39225.czar@czarc.net> <1082652602.9297.34.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <200404221308.08139.czar@czarc.net> Message-ID: <1082653977.9297.37.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> > Yes! This is the obvious (to me) solution for accessing packages via the > network is yum ... why reinvent things when you have a good capability. > > Now, the rest of the story ... handing installation of individual new packages > as well as removal of individual installed packages (including removing > selected installed kernels). There needs to be some work done on the lists of packages displayed in s-c-p - then that can be handled. The new yum-HEAD work is intending to make specific package selection more possible. -sv From tony at tgds.net Thu Apr 22 17:13:36 2004 From: tony at tgds.net (Tony Grant) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 19:13:36 +0200 Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <20040422165700.GB6351@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082652116.14007.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20040422165700.GB6351@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1082654015.14007.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> Le jeu 22/04/2004 ? 18:57, Bill Nottingham a ?crit : > http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/ut1_report/customization_tasks.html Oh my god! I knew it was bad, but that bad... =:-D Tony (Nostalgic for his afterstep clock circa 1998...) -- www.tgds.net Library management software toolkit From czar at czarc.net Thu Apr 22 17:21:27 2004 From: czar at czarc.net (Gene C.) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 13:21:27 -0400 Subject: Desktop issues discussion proposal In-Reply-To: <1082653977.9297.37.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> References: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <200404221308.08139.czar@czarc.net> <1082653977.9297.37.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> Message-ID: <200404221321.27083.czar@czarc.net> On Thursday 22 April 2004 13:12, seth vidal wrote: > > Yes! This is the obvious (to me) solution for accessing packages via the > > network is yum ... why reinvent things when you have a good capability. > > > > Now, the rest of the story ... handing installation of individual new > > packages as well as removal of individual installed packages (including > > removing selected installed kernels). > > There needs to be some work done on the lists of packages displayed in > s-c-p - then that can be handled. The new yum-HEAD work is intending to > make specific package selection more possible. If you have individual and group installation and removal (plus handling multiple repository which I believe yum already does ... I am not currently a yum user), this could give the needed functionality as well as replace up2date. -- Gene From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Thu Apr 22 17:29:49 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 13:29:49 -0400 Subject: Desktop issues discussion proposal In-Reply-To: <200404221321.27083.czar@czarc.net> References: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <200404221308.08139.czar@czarc.net> <1082653977.9297.37.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <200404221321.27083.czar@czarc.net> Message-ID: <1082654989.9297.68.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> > If you have individual and group installation and removal (plus handling > multiple repository which I believe yum already does ... I am not currently a > yum user), this could give the needed functionality as well as replace > up2date. up2date isn't going away - it's interfaces to rhn and the protocols involved are it's best feature - in addition, adrian has generated a rather impressive infrastructure in up2date. But I would like to see a nice gui on yum and some neat utils derived from there. -sv From hp at redhat.com Thu Apr 22 17:33:17 2004 From: hp at redhat.com (Havoc Pennington) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 13:33:17 -0400 Subject: Desktop issues discussion proposal In-Reply-To: <200404220943.17132.czar@czarc.net> References: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <20040421195757.GE8531@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <200404220943.17132.czar@czarc.net> Message-ID: <1082655197.2086.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2004-04-22 at 09:43, Gene C. wrote: > > Should kdenetwork be split so kmail is not included but instead moved to > Extras? This has to be a management nightmare. > For end-user apps (i.e. those in the menus), it will almost always be desirable to maintain a 1 .desktop file to 1 RPM mapping. And in fact we should be syncing the name of the package displayed in the package tool (including translations) with the .desktop file name. Or even making package management happen in terms of .desktop files. From a single-user standpoint, "menu editing" (at least in terms of add/remove items) and "package management" really have no reason to be different. The ideal user experience might be to effectively refcount each RPM by the number of users that have it in their menus, and when nobody has the item in their menus the package gets removed. And similarly you'd install a package by choosing what items to add to your menus. Unclear if there's a sane way to implement this, but this is a nice way for a desktop user to see things. Obviously it only works for desktop-app type of packages. You need another approach to deal with servers, though you could perhaps imagine a similar approach (when you enable the service, it automatically gets the required packages and punches the firewall to make the service go). Also, even if package add/remove were combined with menu editing, you still need an "update" or "get patches" kind of UI... though judging by the number of Windows viruses out there, perhaps the default should be to run this thing automatically every night unless the user opts out ;-) Anyway, we really should think about the issue much more broadly and not assume that the task at hand is "write a single tool that does package management." How can we get it smoothly integrated into the desktop? Maybe there are multiple tools for different tasks or kinds of user. There are related problems too, such as making it really easy for third parties to provide a set of RPMs with comps file on a CD or in an http directory, and handle that really nicely with an install wizard. Just some brainstorm ideas. Let's start with what the user should see though, and then figure out how to implement our closest approximation. Havoc From mdraghi at prosud.com Thu Apr 22 17:50:13 2004 From: mdraghi at prosud.com (Mariano Draghi) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 14:50:13 -0300 Subject: Desktop issues discussion proposal In-Reply-To: <1082655197.2086.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <20040421195757.GE8531@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <200404220943.17132.czar@czarc.net> <1082655197.2086.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: Havoc Pennington wrote: > [ ... snip ... ] > For end-user apps (i.e. those in the menus), it will almost always be > desirable to maintain a 1 .desktop file to 1 RPM mapping. And in fact we > should be syncing the name of the package displayed in the package tool > (including translations) with the .desktop file name. Or even making > package management happen in terms of .desktop files. From a single-user > standpoint, "menu editing" (at least in terms of add/remove items) and > "package management" really have no reason to be different. I can't agree more with you on that, specially w/ the last sentence. It would be a much more clear 'metaphor' for the newbie. I've never tried a Mac on my life, but I believe that there is in Mac OS a kind of vFolder where all the applications reside, moving an installer there installs the application, removing the application from there uninstalls it (please correct me if I'm wrong). Anyway, I think a strong relationship between Menu Items and Applications is a big step in usability... It would be very intuitive for a new user to drag an RPM to the menu, and have the application installed. But I can't figure out how we can deal with a multiple-user desktop... should the new added RPM appear auto magically in all the other users' menus? Should the system alert the other users in the next login about a recently added application, and ask them if they want to use it? (i.e. put it in the menu) What it's clear is that for desktop-apps it has no sense to have the app installed without the matching menu entry somewhere. > > Just some brainstorm ideas. Same here ;) -- Mariano From czar at czarc.net Thu Apr 22 17:49:26 2004 From: czar at czarc.net (Gene C.) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 13:49:26 -0400 Subject: Desktop issues discussion proposal In-Reply-To: <1082655197.2086.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <200404220943.17132.czar@czarc.net> <1082655197.2086.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200404221349.26941.czar@czarc.net> On Thursday 22 April 2004 13:33, Havoc Pennington wrote: > Just some brainstorm ideas. Let's start with what the user should see > though, and then figure out how to implement our closest approximation. I cannot disagree with anything you said! Now for my caviat -- so long as I can install either evolution or kmail as my email client (or both in at least one strange case I have), I completely agree ... I want mostly gnome but with kmail as the email client. On Windows, some users prefer outlook, some eudora and some netscape-mail or whatever. The same holds true here. Mostly, my comments on this thread were addressed at how to eliminate packages providing redundant functionality from Fedora Core and move it to Fedora Extras. It may be possible to do that for some packages but some will need to stay with Fedora Core because the alternative is worse ... I cite kmail as an example of that. -- Gene From fedora at leemhuis.info Thu Apr 22 18:03:19 2004 From: fedora at leemhuis.info (Thorsten Leemhuis) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 20:03:19 +0200 Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <1082571383.12666.7.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082570261.12666.4.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1082570797.2438.25.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082571383.12666.7.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> Message-ID: <1082656999.1639.8.camel@work.thl.home> Am Mi, den 21.04.2004 schrieb seth vidal um 20:16: > I'd love to see a 'load these songs, and play them, don't load the full > db' mode in rhythmbox - but I'm not sure that's in the design so... ++ I have sorted my songs by directorys (like 80s_best, 80_not_so_good,...). This way I'm able to play only the songs I really like or add those two times to the playlist and the others only once. This sorting works player and os independent ;-) . But until now I did not find how to import these to Rhythmbox and rate the songs from one directory higher that those from others... That's why I still use xmms... Just my 2 cent CU thl From maxwax at speakeasy.net Thu Apr 22 17:57:19 2004 From: maxwax at speakeasy.net (Maxwell Spangler) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 13:57:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Apr 2004, Colin Walters wrote: > What I'm curious of is comments by people who still use XMMS, and why. > What are the most important things to you that need to be fixed in > Rhythmbox? Many of us have never been able to get Rhythmbox to work due to the mp3 issue and the need for additional downloads, etc. When I've tried, I've noticed that Rhythmbox takes an amazingly long time to handle large volumes of music. 10,000+ tracks plus, or example. The irony is that this size collection is exactly where Rhythmbox's music managment would probably be superior to other programs.. So in the short term, many of us use xmms because it's there and it works. -- -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Maxwell Spangler Program Writer Greenbelt, Maryland, U.S.A. Washington D.C. Metropolitan Area From feliciano.matias at free.fr Thu Apr 22 18:07:54 2004 From: feliciano.matias at free.fr (Matias Feliciano) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 20:07:54 +0200 Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <1082654015.14007.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082652116.14007.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20040422165700.GB6351@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1082654015.14007.26.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1082657274.11612.317.camel@localhost.localdomain> Le jeu 22/04/2004 ? 19:13, Tony Grant a ?crit : > Le jeu 22/04/2004 ? 18:57, Bill Nottingham a ?crit : > > > http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/ut1_report/customization_tasks.html > > Oh my god! I knew it was bad, but that bad... =:-D > Don't be to worry. All clocks give the same time :-) From fedora at wir-sind-cool.org Thu Apr 22 18:19:01 2004 From: fedora at wir-sind-cool.org (Michael Schwendt) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 20:19:01 +0200 Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <20040421203255.55acc6f5.ms-nospam-0306@arcor.de> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082572025.12369.347.camel@rocky> <20040421203255.55acc6f5.ms-nospam-0306@arcor.de> Message-ID: <20040422201901.5d34fbcc.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> > On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 14:27:06 -0400, Nathan Fredrickson wrote: > > > On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 13:48, Colin Walters wrote: > > > What I'm curious of is comments by people who still use XMMS, and why. > > > What are the most important things to you that need to be fixed in > > > Rhythmbox? > > > > I just took my first look at Rhythmbox to see if it could stream an MP3 > > over HTTP and most importantly seek within the stream. Unfortunately I > > just get an error I don't understand: "Failed to create mad element; > > check your installation". > > This is a gstreamer plug-in error message which refers to the "MAD" mp3 > codec software, which is not included in Fedora Core. For Fedora Core 1, > a patched rhythmbox and a gstreamer-plugins-mp3 package are provided > at http://rpm.livna.org I've updated the gstreamer-plugins-mp3 package for Fedora Core Development. http://riva.homelinux.org/~ms/tmp/gstreamer-plugins-mp3-0.8.1-0.lvn.1.i386.rpm http://bugzilla.livna.org/show_bug.cgi?id=98 It does _not_ need a modified rhythmbox. -- Fedora Core release 1.91 (FC2) - Linux 2.6.5-1.327 From robdumas at optonline.net Thu Apr 22 20:24:43 2004 From: robdumas at optonline.net (Robert Dumas) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 16:24:43 -0400 Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <1082594840.24703.1.camel@fc1> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082594840.24703.1.camel@fc1> Message-ID: <40882A0B.2080001@optonline.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Matt Hansen wrote: | Hi Colin, | | Well here's my opinion. Apart from it using less CPU resources, I can | find nothing else I personally like about it. For a start, it is _way_ | to small. I need to basically squint real close to see things. (And yes, | my eyesight is fine. ;) I also know there's the Ctrl-D combo to make it | larger, but on my screen, this looks real ugly. Second, there UI is | horrible. How can anyone like the controls and navigations in this? | Having to click a non-obvious drop-down button to get to the menu items | is far from desired for a new user. And like many audio players, it's | inundated with preferences and settings that most users have no need | for. I have to admit, I'm with him on this. Rhythmbox is much more appealing to a new user and I think that's important. XMMS appears, as far as I can tell, to be designed as a mere workalike for Winamp 2.x, but even Nullsoft has dumped the old layout in favor of the new 5.x layout, which I find a lot easier to use than Winamp 2.x ever was. Some folks seem to think we need to ship Fedora with everything -- including the kitchen sink -- installed, but I disagree. I think Fedora can live without XMMS; after all, having two players installed will simply confuse new users. After all, if people *really* want to use other players, they can get them, right? I mean, lots of Windows users are smart enough to go online and get Winamp instead of just using Windows Media Player (*insert barfing noises here*), so there's no reason to assume Fedora users couldn't do the same. Perhaps alternative programs can be included on the CD-ROM, but I think for a basic install, one player (installed) is enough for most people. - -- Robert D. - -------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dumas // robdumas at optonline.net http://obnoxio.us/ // AIM: ThisMessIAmIn - -------------------------------------------------------------- My OpenPGP public key is available at: http://obnoxio.us/about/publickey/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3-nr1 (Windows XP) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFAiCoKLAAdl774rDgRAsybAJ9ujgShbH6Hem+Scf306lUlDDmovgCdHxyK TZ3w7KD45tYycwnS3hBhlDk= =fW5I -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From julo at altern.org Thu Apr 22 20:34:35 2004 From: julo at altern.org (Julien Olivier) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 21:34:35 +0100 Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <1082652116.14007.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082652116.14007.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1082666075.1975.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> > > What I'm curious of is comments by people who still use XMMS, and why. > > What are the most important things to you that need to be fixed in > > Rhythmbox? > > Because it plays music! Rhythmbox can't find the Mad plugin so it is > kind of quiet on my machine... In fact it is "yum remove rhythmbox"! > I don't get it. Do you mean that XMMS plays MP3 out of the box on your Fedora distribution ? I'm 99% it's not the case... -- Julien Olivier From duncanbrown at linuxadvocate.net Thu Apr 22 20:39:25 2004 From: duncanbrown at linuxadvocate.net (duncan brown) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 16:39:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <40882A0B.2080001@optonline.net> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082594840.24703.1.camel@fc1> <40882A0B.2080001@optonline.net> Message-ID: <38277.192.58.199.186.1082666365.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> > I have to admit, I'm with him on this. Rhythmbox is much more appealing > to a new user and I think that's important. XMMS appears, as far as I > can tell, to be designed as a mere workalike for Winamp 2.x, but even > Nullsoft has dumped the old layout in favor of the new 5.x layout, which > I find a lot easier to use than Winamp 2.x ever was. i feel the exact opposite way, the small footprint (ram/cpu/desktop) works well for me. it's an interface that i've been familiar with for the better part of a decade now. if you're looking to put rhythmbox on the foreground, then why not just have xmms install into the "more sound and video applications" menu? my pIII 700 with 256mb of ram CRAWLS when i have rhythmbox and firefox running. just because it's got more features doesn't mean it's better. don't get me wrong, i used rhythmbox for about 2 months after fc1 came out and was installed on my machine, but it makes my machine almost unusable. if you want to concentrate on something, put energy into getting rhythmbox less of a resource hog. i like the way it organizes audio, i've never had it fail to open the audio driver (like xmms is want to do), and it's gtk, so i don't have to worry about hunting down a theme for it that somewhat matches my desktop. oh, and xmms has great plugin support for stuff like flac and mp3, if i were able to get rhythmbox working with mp3s without having to recompile i'd be alot happier. > Some folks seem to think we need to ship Fedora with everything -- > including the kitchen sink -- installed, but I disagree. I think Fedora > can live without XMMS; after all, having two players installed will > simply confuse new users. i really think this discussion sounds alot like 'gnome or kde? we should decide for everyone what desktop environment they should get!' > After all, if people *really* want to use other players, they can get > them, right? I mean, lots of Windows users are smart enough to go online > and get Winamp instead of just using Windows Media Player (*insert > barfing noises here*), so there's no reason to assume Fedora users > couldn't do the same. Perhaps alternative programs can be included on > the CD-ROM, but I think for a basic install, one player (installed) is > enough for most people. and there's no reason to assume fedora users don't want xmms to ship with their distribution. rhythmbox needs to be optimized and get (more && better organized) features. -d -+(duncan brown -+(duncanbrown at linuxadvocate.net -+(http://www.linuxadvocate.net () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ - against microsoft attachments Blessed is the man who, having nothing to say, abstains from giving wordy evidence of the fact. -- George Eliot From duncanbrown at linuxadvocate.net Thu Apr 22 20:40:25 2004 From: duncanbrown at linuxadvocate.net (duncan brown) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 16:40:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <1082666075.1975.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082652116.14007.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082666075.1975.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <54976.192.58.199.186.1082666425.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> Julien Olivier said: > I don't get it. Do you mean that XMMS plays MP3 out of the box on your > Fedora distribution ? I'm 99% it's not the case... no, but grabbing a plugin to play them is easier than recompiling rhythmbox. -d -+(duncan brown -+(duncanbrown at linuxadvocate.net -+(http://www.linuxadvocate.net () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ - against microsoft attachments Blessed is the man who, having nothing to say, abstains from giving wordy evidence of the fact. -- George Eliot From walters at redhat.com Thu Apr 22 20:39:35 2004 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 16:39:35 -0400 Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <38277.192.58.199.186.1082666365.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082594840.24703.1.camel@fc1> <40882A0B.2080001@optonline.net> <38277.192.58.199.186.1082666365.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> Message-ID: <1082666374.5334.31.camel@nexus.verbum.private> On Thu, 2004-04-22 at 16:39, duncan brown wrote: > if you're looking to put rhythmbox on the foreground, then why not just > have xmms install into the "more sound and video applications" menu? my > pIII 700 with 256mb of ram CRAWLS when i have rhythmbox and firefox > running. The whole idea of Rhythmbox (caching all your song metadata in memory) definitely requires more RAM, no way around that. How many songs do you have? > oh, and xmms has great plugin support for stuff like flac and mp3, if i > were able to get rhythmbox working with mp3s without having to recompile > i'd be alot happier. You can since 0.8.0. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From wralphie at comcast.net Thu Apr 22 20:50:03 2004 From: wralphie at comcast.net (jludwig) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 16:50:03 -0400 Subject: Desktop issues discussion proposal In-Reply-To: References: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <20040421195757.GE8531@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1082667002.3236.6.camel@jMOD.home> On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 16:23, Mariano Draghi wrote: > > > > This are related. The answer is generally to just move stuff out of > > Core, and into Extras. Eventually, if the user explicitly decides > > to install 20 mail clients, that's their own problem, but the default > > OS install shouldn't do this to them, yes. > > > > This is easy with some applications, and _very_ difficult with others. > Take the (recent) example of Rythmbox vs XMMS f.i. > And the same goes with Evolution vs KMail vs Mozilla Mail/Thunderbird. > Right now, each of them has is strenghts, and there would be plenty of > users that even for historical reasons will hate Fedora if we take out > "their" e-mail client. > Which one is the good default? Why? > > I think that for some kind of applications, we should provide in > Anaconda a list of choices, clearly specifying a recommended default: > Which e-mail client would you like to install? > [x] Evolution (recommended) > [ ] Mozilla Mail > [ ] KMail > ... > So the newbie can press [Next] and go on with the default, and the more > advanced user (or just somebody a little more used to Linux) can clearly > identify the default and change it for his own choice, or even choose > (and install) all of them. > > Besides, it would be nice to have some config tool to setup/change the > default _after_ the installation, and this tool could take care of the > MIME types, and menu auto-reconfiguration (i.e. move the new default > e-mail client to the main menu, and the others (if any) to the extras). > > -- > Mariano This would also be what I would like to see. For example, every time I upgrade or load a system I get the "out of the box" firewall rules without any other option. This is fine for average desktops and newbees, but causes my extra configuration work. I would actually like more choices that can be selected as desired, in fact there was an issue with pine being removed. -- jludwig From aaron.bennett at olin.edu Thu Apr 22 20:50:21 2004 From: aaron.bennett at olin.edu (Aaron Bennett) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 16:50:21 -0400 Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <40882A0B.2080001@optonline.net> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082594840.24703.1.camel@fc1> <40882A0B.2080001@optonline.net> Message-ID: <4088300D.2060409@olin.edu> Robert Dumas wrote: > > After all, if people *really* want to use other players, they can get > them, right? I mean, lots of Windows users are smart enough to go online > and get Winamp instead of just using Windows Media Player (*insert > barfing noises here*), so there's no reason to assume Fedora users > couldn't do the same. My users' greatest frustration with Linux is exactly that. Under windows, if you want to install a new MP3 player, you go to download.com or somewhere, find one that looks cool, download it, save it on your desktop, double-click it and click next,next,next and it's installed. Try doing that with Linux. It's impossible for a ton of reasons -- many of them very good. I've talked to many of my users about this... and they are smart people -- engineering students. What happens to them with Linux is usually something like this... They have a class assignment that they need to write some python code for, so they reboot their laptop into Linux. They log on, start writing their code, and think "Boy, Linux is really pretty cool. I'd like to use it more but I hate this mp3 player. " They open up google and query on "Linux MP3 Players," follow the links, download a few programs. These are usually either rpms or source tarballs. They download the rpms to their desktop, and then click them. It doesn't work. They click the tars and it extracts them. They keep clicking. No amount of mouse driven clicking will get that program installed. The more adventurous of them manage to stumble onto some documentation about the rpm command -- maybe someone told them about man pages, or they look online. So they type rpm --instal . What they get back is "Foo-2.4.5 depends on bar-2.5.61." Usually at that point they say "screw this" , finish their homework , and reboot into Windows as fast as possible. -- Aaron Bennett UNIX Administrator Franklin W. Olin College of Engineering From duncanbrown at linuxadvocate.net Thu Apr 22 20:59:10 2004 From: duncanbrown at linuxadvocate.net (duncan brown) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 16:59:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <4088300D.2060409@olin.edu> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082594840.24703.1.camel@fc1> <40882A0B.2080001@optonline.net> <4088300D.2060409@olin.edu> Message-ID: <57143.192.58.199.186.1082667550.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> Aaron Bennett said: > My users' greatest frustration with Linux is exactly that. Under > windows, if you want to install a new MP3 player, you go to download.com > or somewhere, find one that looks cool, download it, save it on your > desktop, double-click it and click next,next,next and it's installed. > Try doing that with Linux. It's impossible for a ton of reasons -- many > of them very good. I've talked to many of my users about this... and > they are smart people -- engineering students. What happens to them > with Linux is usually something like this... this is where fedora needs to more seriously look at apt as something default, and getting synaptic to behave more like apt on the command line. i've changed the default behaviour on my gnome desktop to run 'apt-get update && apt-get install %s' (not exactly, there's a wrapper script), but apt checks the rpm file and then downloads the requirements. synaptic needs to do this, which i've tried and it doesn't work. i havn't been able to find any real documentation on the command line flags for it. if a pretty gui came up and grabbed all the dependencies for you, users would be very happy. i feel taken care of when apt comes up in a terminal and installs what i need. sorry for forking this thread. > They have a class assignment that they need to write some python code > for, so they reboot their laptop into Linux. They log on, start writing > their code, and think "Boy, Linux is really pretty cool. I'd like to > use it more but I hate this mp3 player. " They open up google and query > on "Linux MP3 Players," follow the links, download a few programs. > These are usually either rpms or source tarballs. They download the > rpms to their desktop, and then click them. It doesn't work. They > click the tars and it extracts them. They keep clicking. No amount of > mouse driven clicking will get that program installed. you should point them to ways to install synaptic and apt, and they won't have to worry about things like that once they configure some mirrors with mp3/etc. i have a semi-completed walkthrough for things like that. http://www.linuxadvocate.net/apt > The more adventurous of them manage to stumble onto some documentation > about the rpm command -- maybe someone told them about man pages, or > they look online. So they type rpm --instal . What they get > back is "Foo-2.4.5 depends on bar-2.5.61." > > Usually at that point they say "screw this" , finish their homework , > and reboot into Windows as fast as possible. again, synaptic being modified to work the way apt does. i think focusing on apt/synaptic instead of 'do we need 2 media players?' is more along the lines of where you should go. not only that, but synaptic depends on gnome, what about the folks in kde? what if they want xmms? -d -+(duncan brown -+(duncanbrown at linuxadvocate.net -+(http://www.linuxadvocate.net () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ - against microsoft attachments Blessed is the man who, having nothing to say, abstains from giving wordy evidence of the fact. -- George Eliot From duncanbrown at linuxadvocate.net Thu Apr 22 21:01:18 2004 From: duncanbrown at linuxadvocate.net (duncan brown) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 17:01:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <1082666374.5334.31.camel@nexus.verbum.private> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082594840.24703.1.camel@fc1> <40882A0B.2080001@optonline.net> <38277.192.58.199.186.1082666365.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> <1082666374.5334.31.camel@nexus.verbum.private> Message-ID: <45525.192.58.199.186.1082667678.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> Colin Walters said: > The whole idea of Rhythmbox (caching all your song metadata in memory) > definitely requires more RAM, no way around that. How many songs do you > have? heh, funny you should ask. i'm about 2/3rds of the way converting my cd collection to ogg... all 700+ discs =] >> oh, and xmms has great plugin support for stuff like flac and mp3, if >> i were able to get rhythmbox working with mp3s without having to >> recompile i'd be alot happier. > > You can since 0.8.0. i live in the here and now, and the latest 'fedora released' is 0.5.4 on fc1. what version is going to ship with fc2? -+(duncan brown -+(duncanbrown at linuxadvocate.net -+(http://www.linuxadvocate.net () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ - against microsoft attachments Blessed is the man who, having nothing to say, abstains from giving wordy evidence of the fact. -- George Eliot From walters at redhat.com Thu Apr 22 21:12:04 2004 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 17:12:04 -0400 Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <45525.192.58.199.186.1082667678.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082594840.24703.1.camel@fc1> <40882A0B.2080001@optonline.net> <38277.192.58.199.186.1082666365.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> <1082666374.5334.31.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <45525.192.58.199.186.1082667678.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> Message-ID: <1082668324.5334.68.camel@nexus.verbum.private> On Thu, 2004-04-22 at 17:01, duncan brown wrote: > heh, funny you should ask. i'm about 2/3rds of the way converting my cd > collection to ogg... all 700+ discs =] So approximately 7000 songs? Rhythmbox should be able to handle that, last I tested it. > >> oh, and xmms has great plugin support for stuff like flac and mp3, if > >> i were able to get rhythmbox working with mp3s without having to > >> recompile i'd be alot happier. > > > > You can since 0.8.0. > > i live in the here and now, and the latest 'fedora released' is 0.5.4 on > fc1. what version is going to ship with fc2? 0.8.1. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From duncanbrown at linuxadvocate.net Thu Apr 22 21:19:05 2004 From: duncanbrown at linuxadvocate.net (duncan brown) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 17:19:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <1082668324.5334.68.camel@nexus.verbum.private> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082594840.24703.1.camel@fc1> <40882A0B.2080001@optonline.net> <38277.192.58.199.186.1082666365.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> <1082666374.5334.31.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <45525.192.58.199.186.1082667678.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> <1082668324.5334.68.camel@nexus.verbum.private> Message-ID: <34919.192.58.199.186.1082668745.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> Colin Walters said: > On Thu, 2004-04-22 at 17:01, duncan brown wrote: > > So approximately 7000 songs? Rhythmbox should be able to handle that, > last I tested it. it may be able to handle that, but can my machine handle rhythmbox handling that? =] that's alot of ram just for playing music. then again, if i can't get xmms and rhythmbox is still a hog, there's always ogg123 -z ~/music =] -+(duncan brown -+(duncanbrown at linuxadvocate.net -+(http://www.linuxadvocate.net () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ - against microsoft attachments Blessed is the man who, having nothing to say, abstains from giving wordy evidence of the fact. -- George Eliot From razvan.vilt at linux360.ro Thu Apr 22 21:20:23 2004 From: razvan.vilt at linux360.ro (Razvan Corneliu C.R. "d3vi1" VILT) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 00:20:23 +0300 Subject: Desktop issues discussion proposal In-Reply-To: <1082655197.2086.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <20040421195757.GE8531@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <200404220943.17132.czar@czarc.net> <1082655197.2086.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1082668822.30312.18.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> On Thu, 2004-04-22 at 13:33 -0400, Havoc Pennington wrote: > On Thu, 2004-04-22 at 09:43, Gene C. wrote: > > > > Should kdenetwork be split so kmail is not included but instead moved to > > Extras? This has to be a management nightmare. > > > > For end-user apps (i.e. those in the menus), it will almost always be > desirable to maintain a 1 .desktop file to 1 RPM mapping. And in fact we > should be syncing the name of the package displayed in the package tool > (including translations) with the .desktop file name. Or even making > package management happen in terms of .desktop files. From a single-user > standpoint, "menu editing" (at least in terms of add/remove items) and > "package management" really have no reason to be different. > > The ideal user experience might be to effectively refcount each RPM by > the number of users that have it in their menus, and when nobody has the > item in their menus the package gets removed. And similarly you'd > install a package by choosing what items to add to your menus. Unclear > if there's a sane way to implement this, but this is a nice way for a > desktop user to see things. > > Obviously it only works for desktop-app type of packages. You need > another approach to deal with servers, though you could perhaps imagine > a similar approach (when you enable the service, it automatically gets > the required packages and punches the firewall to make the service go). > > Also, even if package add/remove were combined with menu editing, you > still need an "update" or "get patches" kind of UI... though judging by > the number of Windows viruses out there, perhaps the default should be > to run this thing automatically every night unless the user opts out ;-) > > Anyway, we really should think about the issue much more broadly and not > assume that the task at hand is "write a single tool that does package > management." How can we get it smoothly integrated into the desktop? > Maybe there are multiple tools for different tasks or kinds of user. > > There are related problems too, such as making it really easy for third > parties to provide a set of RPMs with comps file on a CD or in an http > directory, and handle that really nicely with an install wizard. > > Just some brainstorm ideas. Let's start with what the user should see > though, and then figure out how to implement our closest approximation. > > Havoc That sounds soo nice for the end user. But what about me? I've been using linux since 1996. I was 12 by then and I'm not sure I'm ready for such radical changes. I just love being in control of things. First I WANT to be able to select the rpm packages one-by-one, whether it's in anaconda or system-config-packages, we should not forget those users which want to be in control. It's nice to have an easier way, but lets not give up the power of rpm. From carco944t at msn.com Thu Apr 22 21:46:00 2004 From: carco944t at msn.com (JORGE CARCORZE) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 14:46:00 -0700 Subject: Playing CD...probelms... Message-ID: >When using up2date to update XMMS to 1.2.10.....what happens to the old >XMMS >rpm? gets deleted? > >I installed FC1 on a P Celeron 1.1GHz/384RAM. When inserting a CD, I see >the the FC1 CD player reading the track but no sound......same with >XMMS....haven't try Rythmbox..... > >I check the sound card and I do hear the nice gitar sounds..My experience >with Linux FC1 is a garnd total of 20 hours.....including installation.. > >help! (:( > >-carco944t _________________________________________________________________ Watch LIVE baseball games on your computer with MLB.TV, included with MSN Premium! http://join.msn.com/?page=features/mlb&pgmarket=en-us/go/onm00200439ave/direct/01/ From dvk222 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 22 21:48:40 2004 From: dvk222 at yahoo.com (Dmitry Khotyanovsky) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 14:48:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: replacing XMMS Message-ID: <20040422214840.26310.qmail@web60005.mail.yahoo.com> > What I'm curious of is comments by people who still use XMMS, and why. > What are the most important things to you that need to be fixed in > Rhythmbox? > Well, I think Rhythmbox is good enough. I just think it is too complicated for me. I never felt eager enough to manage all these playlists and libraries. With xmms I can just type "xmms Artist_Directory/Some_Album_Directory" to play the album or "xmms some_song.mp3" to play the song (or "xmms *.mp3" to play all the songs in the directory). Rhythmbox cannot do things like that, can it? Actually, I never create playlists, nor I use Juke Boxes. I just don't need them, because I store music arranged in directories. More generally, I am not comfortable with the idea of removing popular Linux applications from the Fedora distribution. Dmitry __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25? http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash From nphilipp at redhat.com Thu Apr 22 21:51:50 2004 From: nphilipp at redhat.com (Nils Philippsen) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 23:51:50 +0200 Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <54976.192.58.199.186.1082666425.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082652116.14007.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082666075.1975.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <54976.192.58.199.186.1082666425.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> Message-ID: <1082670710.8360.11.camel@gibraltar.stuttgart.redhat.com> On Thu, 2004-04-22 at 22:40, duncan brown wrote: > Julien Olivier said: > > > I don't get it. Do you mean that XMMS plays MP3 out of the box on your > > Fedora distribution ? I'm 99% it's not the case... > > no, but grabbing a plugin to play them is easier than recompiling rhythmbox. Only that this AFAIK is no longer necessary with rhythmbox >= 0.8.0 as it doesn't do things directly, but only via gstreamer. So in theory, dropping an MP3 gstreamer plugin into (as of now) /usr/lib/gstreamer-0.8 and all gstreamer apps should magically be able to play MP3. Or so I think ;-), Colin please correct me if this is just gibberish. Nils -- Nils Philippsen / Red Hat / nphilipp at redhat.com "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- B. Franklin, 1759 PGP fingerprint: C4A8 9474 5C4C ADE3 2B8F 656D 47D8 9B65 6951 3011 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From duncanbrown at linuxadvocate.net Thu Apr 22 21:58:44 2004 From: duncanbrown at linuxadvocate.net (duncan brown) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 17:58:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Playing CD...probelms... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <64197.192.58.199.186.1082671124.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> JORGE CARCORZE said: >When using up2date to update XMMS to 1.2.10.....what happens to the old > XMMS rpm? gets deleted? it all depends on if your up2date deleted the rpm file, but i think you meant the old xmms executable, not the installation package, right? >I installed FC1 on a P Celeron 1.1GHz/384RAM. When inserting a CD, I > see the the FC1 CD player reading the track but no sound......same with > XMMS....haven't try Rythmbox..... do you have the audio cable going from your cdrom drive to your soundcard? do you have cd audio muted or turned down in your volume control? -d -+(duncan brown -+(duncanbrown at linuxadvocate.net -+(http://www.linuxadvocate.net () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ - against microsoft attachments Blessed is the man who, having nothing to say, abstains from giving wordy evidence of the fact. -- George Eliot From hp at redhat.com Thu Apr 22 22:58:21 2004 From: hp at redhat.com (Havoc Pennington) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 18:58:21 -0400 Subject: Desktop issues discussion proposal In-Reply-To: <1082654989.9297.68.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> References: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <200404221308.08139.czar@czarc.net> <1082653977.9297.37.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <200404221321.27083.czar@czarc.net> <1082654989.9297.68.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> Message-ID: <1082674701.2086.240.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2004-04-22 at 13:29, seth vidal wrote: > > If you have individual and group installation and removal (plus handling > > multiple repository which I believe yum already does ... I am not currently a > > yum user), this could give the needed functionality as well as replace > > up2date. > > up2date isn't going away - it's interfaces to rhn and the protocols > involved are it's best feature - in addition, adrian has generated a > rather impressive infrastructure in up2date. > > But I would like to see a nice gui on yum and some neat utils derived > from there. To me a separate GUI based on the backends used is pretty darn weird. I don't see how it's sane to install both a yum gui and an up2date gui by default for example. Havoc From duncanbrown at linuxadvocate.net Thu Apr 22 23:05:14 2004 From: duncanbrown at linuxadvocate.net (duncan brown) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 19:05:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Desktop issues discussion proposal In-Reply-To: <1082674701.2086.240.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <200404221308.08139.czar@czarc.net> <1082653977.9297.37.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <200404221321.27083.czar@czarc.net> <1082654989.9297.68.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1082674701.2086.240.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <62379.192.58.199.186.1082675114.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> Havoc Pennington said: > To me a separate GUI based on the backends used is pretty darn weird. I > don't see how it's sane to install both a yum gui and an up2date gui by > default for example. not only that, but you'd be re-inventing the wheel. apt should be a part of fedora core, along with synaptic. i know that there are problems with multi-arch procs and apt, but why not devote the time and effort into getting apt up to snuff (along with synaptic) and have that as your update manager? -d -+(duncan brown -+(duncanbrown at linuxadvocate.net -+(http://www.linuxadvocate.net () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ - against microsoft attachments Blessed is the man who, having nothing to say, abstains from giving wordy evidence of the fact. -- George Eliot From hp at redhat.com Thu Apr 22 23:11:00 2004 From: hp at redhat.com (Havoc Pennington) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 19:11:00 -0400 Subject: Desktop issues discussion proposal In-Reply-To: <1082668822.30312.18.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> References: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <20040421195757.GE8531@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <200404220943.17132.czar@czarc.net> <1082655197.2086.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082668822.30312.18.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> Message-ID: <1082675459.2086.252.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2004-04-22 at 17:20, Razvan Corneliu C.R. "d3vi1" VILT wrote: > That sounds soo nice for the end user. But what about me? I've been > using linux since 1996. I was 12 by then and I'm not sure I'm ready for > such radical changes. I just love being in control of things. First I > WANT to be able to select the rpm packages one-by-one, whether it's in > anaconda or system-config-packages, we should not forget those users > which want to be in control. It's nice to have an easier way, but lets > not give up the power of rpm. > Nobody is stopping us from having multiple UIs, but the focus of the desktop team at Red Hat is really on some very specific target users. In rough outline, a typical desktop-using professional in a corporate setting, and a network admin managing a lot of desktop systems in the same setting. Working on posting more details. Our intent for the default desktop install and configuration will be to optimize for these users and we'll focus efforts there in Fedora Core. But part of the fun of Fedora is that we do have a lot of choices, including multiple window managers and so forth. And of course the command line will always be there. One suggestion from Seth is to have a "UNIX" comps group, containing all the GUI stuff that traditional UNIX users expect that would not be interesting to our desktop users. Havoc From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Thu Apr 22 23:17:04 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 19:17:04 -0400 Subject: Desktop issues discussion proposal In-Reply-To: <1082674701.2086.240.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <200404221308.08139.czar@czarc.net> <1082653977.9297.37.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <200404221321.27083.czar@czarc.net> <1082654989.9297.68.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1082674701.2086.240.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1082675823.7144.1.camel@binkley> > To me a separate GUI based on the backends used is pretty darn weird. I > don't see how it's sane to install both a yum gui and an up2date gui by > default for example. then why are s-c-p and up2date separate now? Why does s-c-p exist at all? -sv From duncanbrown at linuxadvocate.net Thu Apr 22 23:20:53 2004 From: duncanbrown at linuxadvocate.net (duncan brown) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 19:20:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Desktop issues discussion proposal In-Reply-To: <1082675459.2086.252.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <20040421195757.GE8531@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <200404220943.17132.czar@czarc.net> <1082655197.2086.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082668822.30312.18.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <1082675459.2086.252.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <40233.192.58.199.186.1082676053.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> Havoc Pennington said: > One suggestion from Seth is to have a "UNIX" comps group, containing all > the GUI stuff that traditional UNIX users expect that would not be > interesting to our desktop users. or even call it 'power users', this would also take care of the 'xmms or rhythmbox' argument. just have xmms as a part of that, so casual users won't have to know it's there or get frustrated by it. -+(duncan brown -+(duncanbrown at linuxadvocate.net -+(http://www.linuxadvocate.net () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ - against microsoft attachments Blessed is the man who, having nothing to say, abstains from giving wordy evidence of the fact. -- George Eliot From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Thu Apr 22 23:21:55 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 19:21:55 -0400 Subject: Desktop issues discussion proposal In-Reply-To: <62379.192.58.199.186.1082675114.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> References: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <200404221308.08139.czar@czarc.net> <1082653977.9297.37.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <200404221321.27083.czar@czarc.net> <1082654989.9297.68.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1082674701.2086.240.camel@localhost.localdomain> <62379.192.58.199.186.1082675114.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> Message-ID: <1082676115.7144.5.camel@binkley> > not only that, but you'd be re-inventing the wheel. apt should be a part > of fedora core, along with synaptic. i know that there are problems with > multi-arch procs and apt, but why not devote the time and effort into > getting apt up to snuff (along with synaptic) and have that as your update > manager? > all the config tools I can think of in fedora core are in python - why go out and work on one which is all in C or C++? Synaptic is all in C and C++. -sv From hp at redhat.com Thu Apr 22 23:24:02 2004 From: hp at redhat.com (Havoc Pennington) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 19:24:02 -0400 Subject: Desktop issues discussion proposal In-Reply-To: <1082667002.3236.6.camel@jMOD.home> References: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <20040421195757.GE8531@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1082667002.3236.6.camel@jMOD.home> Message-ID: <1082676241.2086.265.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2004-04-22 at 16:50, jludwig wrote: > This would also be what I would like to see. For example, every time I > upgrade or load a system I get the "out of the box" firewall rules > without any other option. This is fine for average desktops and newbees, > but causes my extra configuration work. I don't think more installer options will happen - everyone is very in favor of kicking that stuff to firstboot or to config tools post-boot. If you want to avoid manually configuring systems, what you want is kickstart. For the firewall example specifically, there's no real reason firewalls on most systems should even _require_ configuration - we know what services are up, we should open those ports and close the other ports. On a desktop, that probably means everything is closed. If someone starts a service, the initscript or whatever can open the port. If you don't want a port open, stop the service. Yes, some services can serve both local and remote users. Let those two aspects be started and stopped separately. "[ ] Receive print jobs from this machine" "[ ] Receive print jobs from other machines" - if both are unchecked, no print daemon starts. But of course leave the config file, so if you really want some other firewall config, or are setting up a machine whose purpose is to be a firewall, rather than to be firewalled, you can create that config. And there might be a GUI for creating a custom firewall, covering common use-cases for that. Havoc From hp at redhat.com Thu Apr 22 23:28:18 2004 From: hp at redhat.com (Havoc Pennington) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 19:28:18 -0400 Subject: Desktop issues discussion proposal In-Reply-To: References: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <20040421195757.GE8531@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <200404220943.17132.czar@czarc.net> <1082655197.2086.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1082676498.2086.269.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2004-04-22 at 13:50, Mariano Draghi wrote: > But I can't figure out how we can deal with a multiple-user desktop... > should the new added RPM appear auto magically in all the other users' > menus? Should the system alert the other users in the next login about a > recently added application, and ask them if they want to use it? (i.e. > put it in the menu) Yeah, lots of possible solutions. Another approach is that there's a default menu everyone gets, and they don't see newly-installed software at all until they install it themselves (which may just add the menu item if the RPM is already installed). In many environments probably users can't cause RPMs to be installed as the system is centrally managed, they can only edit menus in effect. But the menu editing might look like "add/remove software" to the user. Havoc From bloch at verdurin.com Thu Apr 22 23:29:41 2004 From: bloch at verdurin.com (bloch at verdurin.com) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 00:29:41 +0100 Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <1082570797.2438.25.camel@nexus.verbum.private> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082570261.12666.4.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1082570797.2438.25.camel@nexus.verbum.private> Message-ID: <20040422232941.GB4616@bloch.verdurin.priv> On Wed, 21 Apr 2004, Colin Walters wrote: > > xmms is less pretty but I typically queue up songs, put it on the last > > desktop and leave it alone, so it's not a big deal. > > Do you find queuing songs in Rhythmbox to be more difficult? Right now > you basically have to make a playlist if you want to do that. > That's a big problem with Rhythmbox for me. XMMS really isn't so good, but it's easy to play a single song or to play some songs via the commandline etc. From hp at redhat.com Thu Apr 22 23:31:43 2004 From: hp at redhat.com (Havoc Pennington) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 19:31:43 -0400 Subject: Desktop issues discussion proposal In-Reply-To: <1082675823.7144.1.camel@binkley> References: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <200404221308.08139.czar@czarc.net> <1082653977.9297.37.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <200404221321.27083.czar@czarc.net> <1082654989.9297.68.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1082674701.2086.240.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082675823.7144.1.camel@binkley> Message-ID: <1082676703.2086.273.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2004-04-22 at 19:17, seth vidal wrote: > > To me a separate GUI based on the backends used is pretty darn weird. I > > don't see how it's sane to install both a yum gui and an up2date gui by > > default for example. > > then why are s-c-p and up2date separate now? > > Why does s-c-p exist at all? > The original plan was to eventually deprecate one, but then nobody has had a ton of time to work on it. s-c-p was a newer UI proposal. Havoc From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Thu Apr 22 23:34:01 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 19:34:01 -0400 Subject: Desktop issues discussion proposal In-Reply-To: <1082676703.2086.273.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <200404221308.08139.czar@czarc.net> <1082653977.9297.37.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <200404221321.27083.czar@czarc.net> <1082654989.9297.68.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1082674701.2086.240.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082675823.7144.1.camel@binkley> <1082676703.2086.273.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1082676841.7144.8.camel@binkley> > The original plan was to eventually deprecate one, but then nobody has > had a ton of time to work on it. s-c-p was a newer UI proposal. > then this is something worth discussing. do rhel commitments make it impossible to modify up2date interface? I think starting from the base of s-c-p leaves a lot of room to grow. this is an area I am deeply interested in working on. -sv From hp at redhat.com Thu Apr 22 23:35:13 2004 From: hp at redhat.com (Havoc Pennington) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 19:35:13 -0400 Subject: Desktop issues discussion proposal In-Reply-To: <62379.192.58.199.186.1082675114.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> References: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <200404221308.08139.czar@czarc.net> <1082653977.9297.37.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <200404221321.27083.czar@czarc.net> <1082654989.9297.68.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1082674701.2086.240.camel@localhost.localdomain> <62379.192.58.199.186.1082675114.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> Message-ID: <1082676913.2086.277.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2004-04-22 at 19:05, duncan brown wrote: > Havoc Pennington said: > > > To me a separate GUI based on the backends used is pretty darn weird. I > > don't see how it's sane to install both a yum gui and an up2date gui by > > default for example. > > not only that, but you'd be re-inventing the wheel. apt should be a part > of fedora core, along with synaptic. i know that there are problems with > multi-arch procs and apt, but why not devote the time and effort into > getting apt up to snuff (along with synaptic) and have that as your update > manager? > To me the synaptic UI is designed around exposing all the functionality of apt and RPM, rather than around a set of target users and their goals/tasks. http://www.nongnu.org/synaptic/action.html So I would say it's possible to do much better on the GUI. As far as the backend implementation of apt vs. yum vs. up2date, I don't really care, but I know the people who work on them have some strong opinions. Havoc From hp at redhat.com Thu Apr 22 23:40:26 2004 From: hp at redhat.com (Havoc Pennington) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 19:40:26 -0400 Subject: Desktop issues discussion proposal In-Reply-To: <1082676841.7144.8.camel@binkley> References: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <200404221308.08139.czar@czarc.net> <1082653977.9297.37.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <200404221321.27083.czar@czarc.net> <1082654989.9297.68.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1082674701.2086.240.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082675823.7144.1.camel@binkley> <1082676703.2086.273.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082676841.7144.8.camel@binkley> Message-ID: <1082677225.2086.281.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2004-04-22 at 19:34, seth vidal wrote: > > then this is something worth discussing. do rhel commitments make it > impossible to modify up2date interface? Not that I know of. > I think starting from the base > of s-c-p leaves a lot of room to grow. > > this is an area I am deeply interested in working on. Yup. I guess Jeremy has some more detailed thoughts... Havoc From mattdm at mattdm.org Fri Apr 23 00:59:51 2004 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 20:59:51 -0400 Subject: Desktop issues discussion proposal In-Reply-To: <1082676241.2086.265.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <20040421195757.GE8531@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1082667002.3236.6.camel@jMOD.home> <1082676241.2086.265.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20040423005951.GA3880@jadzia.bu.edu> On Thu, Apr 22, 2004 at 07:24:02PM -0400, Havoc Pennington wrote: > For the firewall example specifically, there's no real reason firewalls on > most systems should even _require_ configuration - we know what services > are up, we should open those ports and close the other ports. On a > desktop, that probably means everything is closed. If someone starts a > service, the initscript or whatever can open the port. If you don't want a > port open, stop the service. In that case, why even _have_ a firewall? If nothing's listening on a port, it's not like anyone can connect to it. -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> From mattdm at mattdm.org Fri Apr 23 01:00:36 2004 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 21:00:36 -0400 Subject: Desktop issues discussion proposal In-Reply-To: <1082675459.2086.252.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <20040421195757.GE8531@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <200404220943.17132.czar@czarc.net> <1082655197.2086.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082668822.30312.18.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <1082675459.2086.252.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20040423010036.GB3880@jadzia.bu.edu> On Thu, Apr 22, 2004 at 07:11:00PM -0400, Havoc Pennington wrote: > One suggestion from Seth is to have a "UNIX" comps group, containing all > the GUI stuff that traditional UNIX users expect that would not be > interesting to our desktop users. "Old School". -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> From jensknutson at yahoo.com Fri Apr 23 01:23:40 2004 From: jensknutson at yahoo.com (Jens Knutson) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 20:23:40 -0500 Subject: auto-firewall configuration In-Reply-To: <20040423005951.GA3880@jadzia.bu.edu> References: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <20040421195757.GE8531@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1082667002.3236.6.camel@jMOD.home> <1082676241.2086.265.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20040423005951.GA3880@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: <1082683420.1920.14.camel@zeus.dknutson.net> On Thu, 2004-04-22 at 19:59, Matthew Miller wrote: > > desktop, that probably means everything is closed. If someone starts a > > service, the initscript or whatever can open the port. If you don't want a > > port open, stop the service. > > In that case, why even _have_ a firewall? If nothing's listening on a port, > it's not like anyone can connect to it. but then... if a service is to be made available, you can't have the firewall turned on for that port, so why have the service if the firewall will just prevent it from functioning? - jck -- "We act as though comfort and luxury were the chief requirements of life, when all that we need to make us happy is something to be enthusiastic about." -- Albert Einstein From hp at redhat.com Fri Apr 23 04:01:52 2004 From: hp at redhat.com (Havoc Pennington) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 00:01:52 -0400 Subject: auto-firewall configuration In-Reply-To: <1082683420.1920.14.camel@zeus.dknutson.net> References: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <20040421195757.GE8531@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1082667002.3236.6.camel@jMOD.home> <1082676241.2086.265.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20040423005951.GA3880@jadzia.bu.edu> <1082683420.1920.14.camel@zeus.dknutson.net> Message-ID: <1082692912.2531.86.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2004-04-22 at 21:23, Jens Knutson wrote: > On Thu, 2004-04-22 at 19:59, Matthew Miller wrote: > > > desktop, that probably means everything is closed. If someone starts a > > > service, the initscript or whatever can open the port. If you don't want a > > > port open, stop the service. > > > > In that case, why even _have_ a firewall? If nothing's listening on a port, > > it's not like anyone can connect to it. > I suppose it's just for the case where you want to listen for connections from the local machine, but not from other machines? (Could use domain sockets for this too) Also perhaps to block non-root users from starting servers on unreserved ports. > but then... if a service is to be made available, you can't have the > firewall turned on for that port, so why have the service if the > firewall will just prevent it from functioning? > Right, you just want to say "these services are available to the network, and nothing else is available" - and have the firewall and which daemons are started up reflect the desired availability. I don't know. I'd be curious to hear about people who do anything complex with firewalling a single system. I know people do really complex things with a system that _is_ a firewall for a whole network. But for a standalone system firewalling itself it seems like you always want "enable the services this system provides, and disable everything else" - which seems like it can be automated if we have knowledge of those services. Havoc From helios82 at optushome.com.au Fri Apr 23 04:47:28 2004 From: helios82 at optushome.com.au (Matt Hansen) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 14:47:28 +1000 Subject: Desktop issues discussion proposal In-Reply-To: <1082676241.2086.265.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <20040421195757.GE8531@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1082667002.3236.6.camel@jMOD.home> <1082676241.2086.265.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1082695648.1604.12.camel@fc1> On Fri, 2004-04-23 at 09:24, Havoc Pennington wrote: > But of course leave the config file, so if you really want some other > firewall config, or are setting up a machine whose purpose is to be a > firewall, rather than to be firewalled, you can create that config. > And there might be a GUI for creating a custom firewall, covering common > use-cases for that. Havoc, Are you talking generically with that last sentence or is this in the works? i.e. http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/config-tools/ states a number of tools "that would be useful but do not exist yet". For example it lists: "Firewall - configuration tool for IP Tables (something more finegrained than redhat-config-securitylevel)" What's the status on this tool and other tools listed there? One tool that isn't listed that would be useful is a Mail server tool - could take some of the complexity out of setting up Sendmail/Postfix (esp. Sendmail). I suppose it's lack of RH developer interest/time? Regards, -Matt -- "Would you buy a car with the hood welded shut?" - Bob Young on the benefits of the open source development model. mhelios - www.fedoraforum.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From nandox7 at myrealbox.com Fri Apr 23 07:50:48 2004 From: nandox7 at myrealbox.com (Nando) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 08:50:48 +0100 Subject: Desktop issues discussion proposal References: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro><20040421195757.GE8531@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1082667002.3236.6.camel@jMOD.home><1082676241.2086.265.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082695648.1604.12.camel@fc1> Message-ID: <004f01c42907$b229a4c0$0901a8c0@frozzen.com> Having rear all the different opinions, i'd like to give one more. Why not integrate yum, apt or up2date, doesn't matter wich one. Whith the actual package manager of Fedora? I myself think it currently misses a ton of features, so why not try to develop it, and it the way integrate a package updater and downloader in it? It's better for the newbie user, that get's all the control of the software in one place. And for the ones that prefer the console tools, they have it in the same way. This is my opinion. Thank you, and keep up the good work! Nando From julo at altern.org Fri Apr 23 07:53:09 2004 From: julo at altern.org (Julien Olivier) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 08:53:09 +0100 Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <1082670710.8360.11.camel@gibraltar.stuttgart.redhat.com> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082652116.14007.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082666075.1975.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <54976.192.58.199.186.1082666425.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> <1082670710.8360.11.camel@gibraltar.stuttgart.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1082706789.1961.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> > Only that this AFAIK is no longer necessary with rhythmbox >= 0.8.0 as > it doesn't do things directly, but only via gstreamer. So in theory, > dropping an MP3 gstreamer plugin into (as of now) /usr/lib/gstreamer-0.8 > and all gstreamer apps should magically be able to play MP3. Or so I > think ;-), Colin please correct me if this is just gibberish. I'd just like to add that, maybe, in the future, Fedora could provide a CD burner and a video player (totem) based on gstreamer. So you would have to get the right gstreamer-plugin once, and you would have MP3 support in Rhythmbox, Totem and a (therotitcal) CD burner. It's much better than having to download a plugin for each app using illegal codecs. Am I wrong here ? -- Julien Olivier From Klaus.Steinberger at Physik.Uni-Muenchen.DE Fri Apr 23 08:19:34 2004 From: Klaus.Steinberger at Physik.Uni-Muenchen.DE (Klaus Steinberger) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 10:19:34 +0200 Subject: shared calendar servers In-Reply-To: <20040423075059.8AC4E732C5@hormel.redhat.com> References: <20040423075059.8AC4E732C5@hormel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <4088D196.9020300@Physik.Uni-Muenchen.DE> I would suggest the kolab server. The Pro's: Opensource KDE Client available Full KDE integration under development (Kontact) supported by Aethera Outlook Connectors are available (currently working ones are from companies like Bynari etc.) (some projects are working on opensource MAPI connectors) A Webclient based on Horde is under development (probably that will be integrated into horde mainstream) The Con's: Currently only OpenPKG rpm's are available (except Mandrake) It requires an LDAP Server, so it's probably not a solution for little sites Sincerly, Klaus Steinberger -- Klaus Steinberger Maier-Leibnitz Labor Phone: (+49 89)289 14287 Am Coulombwall 6, D-85748 Garching, Germany FAX: (+49 89)289 14280 EMail: Klaus.Steinberger at Physik.Uni-Muenchen.DE URL: http://www.physik.uni-muenchen.de/~k2/ In a world without Walls and Fences, who needs Windows and Gates From markmc at redhat.com Fri Apr 23 09:20:09 2004 From: markmc at redhat.com (Mark McLoughlin) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 10:20:09 +0100 Subject: desktop discussion In-Reply-To: <1082572328.2023.68.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1082572328.2023.68.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1082712008.2986.17.camel@laptop> Hey, On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 19:32, Havoc Pennington wrote: > 2. Hardware autoconfiguration. > General goal is to autoconfigure hardware without user > intervention or writing to /etc. This is the hal/dbus/ > Project Utopia stuff. http://ometer.com/hardware.html People interested in this might want to follow the hal and dbus mailing lists: http://freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/dbus http://freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/hal and a Project Utpopia mailing list has just started with a discussion about the roadmap for the project: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/utopia-list/2004-April/thread.html#00001 Cheers, Mark. From markmc at redhat.com Fri Apr 23 09:38:11 2004 From: markmc at redhat.com (Mark McLoughlin) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 10:38:11 +0100 Subject: desktop discussion In-Reply-To: <1082576849.2023.92.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1082572328.2023.68.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082575895.12666.35.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1082576849.2023.92.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1082713091.2986.35.camel@laptop> Hey, On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 20:47, Havoc Pennington wrote: > On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 15:31, seth vidal wrote: > > > > 7. The gconf multiple login question, which everyone is already > > > familiar with sadly... Mark was having a look. > > > > What's been mark's take on this? Last thing I heard some discussion of > > application configuration storage daemon - possibly not gconfd based - > > but that sounded like deep in the future. > > Our idea was to merge all of /apps/metacity into one file, all of > /apps/panel into one file, etc. That makes gconf equivalent to plain > text files in terms of semantics. Mark already implemented it mostly. > > But we were getting stuck on the fact that then you can't share homedirs > with old installations. Also, some apps have pretty deep trees under the > level 1 directory, so the single file would be kinda huge. > > We could make it configurable, that's probably the right answer. Yeah, so I think there are two problems: 1) Some people (e.g. people who are switching back and forth between say RHEL4 and RHEL3 daily) are going to be screwed by this feature because GConf 2.4 and earlier don't understand the merged file format. So, I think for FC3 we'll switch it on by default but allow it be switched off with a backend flag. So by default /etc/gconf/2/path would contain: xml:readwrite:$(HOME)/.gconf and if you needed to switch back and forth between version you could change it to: xml:readwrite,nomerge:$(HOME)/.gconf The nomerge flag should probably explode all existing %gconf-tree.xml files into a directory based hierarchy again, too. 2) The optimal set of trees to merge into a file isn't that easy to figure out - we may want to just go with merging everything two levels down and if we figure out later that it should be configurable we can implement it then. Anyway, more details (and a better explanation of the problems) in the upstream bug report: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=138498 Cheers, Mark. From fedora at wir-sind-cool.org Fri Apr 23 12:35:58 2004 From: fedora at wir-sind-cool.org (Michael Schwendt) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 14:35:58 +0200 Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <1082706789.1961.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082652116.14007.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082666075.1975.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <54976.192.58.199.186.1082666425.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> <1082670710.8360.11.camel@gibraltar.stuttgart.redhat.com> <1082706789.1961.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20040423143558.53df5b11.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 08:53:09 +0100, Julien Olivier wrote: > > Only that this AFAIK is no longer necessary with rhythmbox >= 0.8.0 as > > it doesn't do things directly, but only via gstreamer. So in theory, > > dropping an MP3 gstreamer plugin into (as of now) /usr/lib/gstreamer-0.8 > > and all gstreamer apps should magically be able to play MP3. Correct. > I'd just like to add that, maybe, in the future, Fedora could provide a > CD burner and a video player (totem) based on gstreamer. So you would > have to get the right gstreamer-plugin once, and you would have MP3 > support in Rhythmbox, Totem and a (therotitcal) CD burner. It's much > better than having to download a plugin for each app using illegal > codecs. > > Am I wrong here ? No. The gstreamer-plugins-mp3 package is just a temporary work-around. One could make a site like rpm.livna.org provide a "gstreamer-plugins" upgrade package instead, which contains other missing plugins, too (e.g. mpeg). There are plans on doing that. I'm not up-to-date about them, though. -- Fedora Core release 1 (Yarrow) - Linux 2.4.22-1.2188.nptl From aaron.bennett at olin.edu Fri Apr 23 13:59:17 2004 From: aaron.bennett at olin.edu (Aaron Bennett) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 09:59:17 -0400 Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <57143.192.58.199.186.1082667550.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082594840.24703.1.camel@fc1> <40882A0B.2080001@optonline.net> <4088300D.2060409@olin.edu> <57143.192.58.199.186.1082667550.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> Message-ID: <40892135.3070109@olin.edu> duncan brown wrote: >Aaron Bennett said: > > > >this is where fedora needs to more seriously look at apt as something >default, and getting synaptic to behave more like apt on the command line. > >i've changed the default behaviour on my gnome desktop to run 'apt-get >update && apt-get install %s' (not exactly, there's a wrapper script), but >apt checks the rpm file and then downloads the requirements. synaptic >needs to do this, which i've tried and it doesn't work. i havn't been >able to find any real documentation on the command line flags for it. if >a pretty gui came up and grabbed all the dependencies for you, users would >be very happy. i feel taken care of when apt comes up in a terminal and >installs what i need. > that rocks. Does Yum support resolving local packages's dependencies with remote repositories yet? Yum is so much more compact then apt-get, and I really like that it uses rpm-lib instead of dumping all the rpms into one giant and ass-ugly --nodeps system call. Also, eventually system-config-packages will probably be better or as good as synaptic. -- Aaron Bennett UNIX Administrator Franklin W. Olin College of Engineering From aaron.bennett at olin.edu Fri Apr 23 14:07:40 2004 From: aaron.bennett at olin.edu (Aaron Bennett) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 10:07:40 -0400 Subject: Desktop issues discussion proposal In-Reply-To: <20040423010036.GB3880@jadzia.bu.edu> References: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <20040421195757.GE8531@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <200404220943.17132.czar@czarc.net> <1082655197.2086.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082668822.30312.18.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <1082675459.2086.252.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20040423010036.GB3880@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: <4089232C.2040803@olin.edu> Matthew Miller wrote: >On Thu, Apr 22, 2004 at 07:11:00PM -0400, Havoc Pennington wrote: > > >>One suggestion from Seth is to have a "UNIX" comps group, containing all >>the GUI stuff that traditional UNIX users expect that would not be >>interesting to our desktop users. >> >> > >"Old School". > > That would rock. A large group of academic users at my school would thank you. One of our school's most ardent Linux advocates is a Fvwm2 user. It's important not to leave people behind when it's of minimal pain to offer plenty of small programs like that and make sure they work correctly. -- Aaron Bennett UNIX Administrator Franklin W. Olin College of Engineering From fedora at wir-sind-cool.org Fri Apr 23 15:10:14 2004 From: fedora at wir-sind-cool.org (Michael Schwendt) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 17:10:14 +0200 Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <40892135.3070109@olin.edu> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082594840.24703.1.camel@fc1> <40882A0B.2080001@optonline.net> <4088300D.2060409@olin.edu> <57143.192.58.199.186.1082667550.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> <40892135.3070109@olin.edu> Message-ID: <20040423171014.757d3acb.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 09:59:17 -0400, Aaron Bennett wrote: > Does Yum support resolving local packages's dependencies > with remote repositories yet? You can always add a local file:// repositories to yum.conf, e.g. [local] name=Packages on local hard disk drive baseurl=file:///var/ftp/pub/rpms and if any of the packages from that repository depend on something from the network, yum will download the missing packages. -- Fedora Core release 1 (Yarrow) - Linux 2.4.22-1.2188.nptl -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mdraghi at prosud.com Fri Apr 23 15:16:05 2004 From: mdraghi at prosud.com (Mariano Draghi) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 12:16:05 -0300 Subject: Desktop issues discussion proposal In-Reply-To: <1082675459.2086.252.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <20040421195757.GE8531@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <200404220943.17132.czar@czarc.net> <1082655197.2086.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082668822.30312.18.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <1082675459.2086.252.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: Havoc Pennington escribi?: > > One suggestion from Seth is to have a "UNIX" comps group, containing all > the GUI stuff that traditional UNIX users expect that would not be > interesting to our desktop users. > That would be PERFECT! I'm starting to get uncomfortable with the idea of losing choice, really. I mean, GNU/Linux has always been about choice. We shouldn't lose that. We shouldn't forget that Fedora is GNU/Linux. We shouldn't forget the contributors, the developers, the skilled people who like their old-not-so-friendly-apps, and doesn't care about the eye-candy and are BIG friends of the CLI. I know that we should bring Linux to a bigger audience, one which is not accustomed to that, but in doing so we CAN'T and SHOULDN'T forget the old *NIX friends!!! So we have to come up with clever ideas to hide the complexity to the desktop users, keeping a not-so-difficult path for the others. If I ended up downloading 4 CD ISOs to find that the (popular GNU/Linux) tools I need aren't included, and I had to go to a thousand of extras and unofficial repositories to download my RPMs, or even started to download tar balls... then we are taking wrong decisions. -- Mariano From tony at tgds.net Fri Apr 23 15:27:36 2004 From: tony at tgds.net (Tony Grant) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 17:27:36 +0200 Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <20040423143558.53df5b11.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082652116.14007.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082666075.1975.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <54976.192.58.199.186.1082666425.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> <1082670710.8360.11.camel@gibraltar.stuttgart.redhat.com> <1082706789.1961.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20040423143558.53df5b11.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> Message-ID: <1082734055.16641.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> Thanks to pointers in this thread I managed to get rhythmbox running. It uses 25% CPU on my Epia-M10000... It is huge - both onscreen and in RAM. It takes about 3x the screen real estate that iTunes (which is too big) takes in reduced mode. Why would you want to replace xmms with a program like that? Did I say that it crashes? When it gets slim and fast then it might have a chance but for the moment this is alpha quality software. 0.02? Tony Grant -- www.tgds.net Library management software toolkit From bfox at redhat.com Fri Apr 23 15:51:51 2004 From: bfox at redhat.com (Brent Fox) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 11:51:51 -0400 Subject: Desktop issues discussion proposal In-Reply-To: <1082676241.2086.265.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <20040421195757.GE8531@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1082667002.3236.6.camel@jMOD.home> <1082676241.2086.265.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1082735511.11613.12.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com> On Thu, 2004-04-22 at 19:24, Havoc Pennington wrote: > On Thu, 2004-04-22 at 16:50, jludwig wrote: > > This would also be what I would like to see. For example, every time I > > upgrade or load a system I get the "out of the box" firewall rules > > without any other option. This is fine for average desktops and newbees, > > but causes my extra configuration work. > > I don't think more installer options will happen - everyone is very in > favor of kicking that stuff to firstboot or to config tools post-boot. I'd like to see the firewall screen removed from anaconda. The installer would then disallow all incoming traffic by default with the possible exception of ssh. Then move the firewall screen to firstboot so that if the system is ever compromised, it's because the user specifically chose to open something up. We should try to be secure by default. Having said that, I think we could improve the firewall screen a bit. Users moving over from Windows have no idea what "SSH" or "SMTP" connections are or why they would want to enable them. Other services in the list like "Telnet" should probably be removed since no one in their right mind should use telnet anymore. Of course, kickstart will still be there for people who have highly customized configurations and need to roll them out to multiple machines. Cheers, Brent > If you want to avoid manually configuring systems, what you want is > kickstart. > > For the firewall example specifically, there's no real reason firewalls > on most systems should even _require_ configuration - we know what > services are up, we should open those ports and close the other ports. > On a desktop, that probably means everything is closed. If someone > starts a service, the initscript or whatever can open the port. > If you don't want a port open, stop the service. > > Yes, some services can serve both local and remote users. Let those two > aspects be started and stopped separately. "[ ] Receive print jobs from > this machine" "[ ] Receive print jobs from other machines" - if both are > unchecked, no print daemon starts. > > But of course leave the config file, so if you really want some other > firewall config, or are setting up a machine whose purpose is to be a > firewall, rather than to be firewalled, you can create that config. > And there might be a GUI for creating a custom firewall, covering common > use-cases for that. > > Havoc > > From bfox at redhat.com Fri Apr 23 16:09:04 2004 From: bfox at redhat.com (Brent Fox) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 12:09:04 -0400 Subject: Desktop issues discussion proposal In-Reply-To: <1082695648.1604.12.camel@fc1> References: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <20040421195757.GE8531@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1082667002.3236.6.camel@jMOD.home> <1082676241.2086.265.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082695648.1604.12.camel@fc1> Message-ID: <1082736544.11613.25.camel@verve.devel.redhat.com> On Fri, 2004-04-23 at 00:47, Matt Hansen wrote: > On Fri, 2004-04-23 at 09:24, Havoc Pennington wrote: > > > But of course leave the config file, so if you really want some other > > firewall config, or are setting up a machine whose purpose is to be a > > firewall, rather than to be firewalled, you can create that config. > > And there might be a GUI for creating a custom firewall, covering common > > use-cases for that. > > Havoc, > > Are you talking generically with that last sentence or is this in the > works? i.e. http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/config-tools/ states a > number of tools "that would be useful but do not exist yet". For example > it lists: > "Firewall - configuration tool for IP Tables (something more finegrained > than redhat-config-securitylevel)" The kind of firewall tool that item is talking about is something targeted at a system-administrator who wants to do more complicated things to the system than s-c-securitylevel allows. In other words, a firewall tool for someone who knows something about firewalls. s-c-securitylevel is designed to give non-techie users a decent measure of security without needing much knowledge. > What's the status on this tool and other tools listed there? One tool > that isn't listed that would be useful is a Mail server tool - could > take some of the complexity out of setting up Sendmail/Postfix (esp. > Sendmail). I suppose it's lack of RH developer interest/time? More a lack of time than anything. Ideally, non-RH developers could help move these forward - there are way more of you than there are of us. :) It would help if RH would get the public CVS server up and running with external commit access. Cheers, Brent From hp at redhat.com Fri Apr 23 16:57:30 2004 From: hp at redhat.com (Havoc Pennington) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 12:57:30 -0400 Subject: Desktop issues discussion proposal In-Reply-To: <1082695648.1604.12.camel@fc1> References: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <20040421195757.GE8531@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1082667002.3236.6.camel@jMOD.home> <1082676241.2086.265.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082695648.1604.12.camel@fc1> Message-ID: <1082739450.2531.194.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2004-04-23 at 00:47, Matt Hansen wrote: > > Are you talking generically with that last sentence or is this in the > works? i.e. http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/config-tools/ states a > number of tools "that would be useful but do not exist yet". For example > it lists: > "Firewall - configuration tool for IP Tables (something more finegrained > than redhat-config-securitylevel)" > What's the status on this tool and other tools listed there? One tool > that isn't listed that would be useful is a Mail server tool - could > take some of the complexity out of setting up Sendmail/Postfix (esp. > Sendmail). I suppose it's lack of RH developer interest/time? I've been arguing that for the desktop end user, we need to eliminate the need to use any tool that ends up modifying files in /etc. There's also a pretty strong argument that our primary target admin is going to be managing multiple systems and using kickstart, scripts, thin client, RHN, or other architectures to avoid configuring them one-by-one. Basically manually configuring one system at a time kind of sucks, and SMBs and home users only do it because it's too much work to set up a nice architecture to avoid it. Configuring systems one at a time this way means you have to back up the full OS image of each system, systems get out of sync, etc. So the question becomes what is the target audience of a GUI that only modifies a single system's config files in /etc. A possible answer is that you use this GUI to configure the template system or image subtree that gets replicated to multiple other systems. Another question is whether effort should be focused on architecture for configuring multiple systems at once and avoiding per-system state. An ideal is that your machine crashes, you get a new one, you assign a profile/template/whatever to the machine, and you're immediately back up and running with no reconfig or data loss. To answer your question, I think we are still spending a fair bit of time on the config tools though. Havoc From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Fri Apr 23 17:01:47 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 13:01:47 -0400 Subject: Desktop issues discussion proposal In-Reply-To: <1082739450.2531.194.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <20040421195757.GE8531@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1082667002.3236.6.camel@jMOD.home> <1082676241.2086.265.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082695648.1604.12.camel@fc1> <1082739450.2531.194.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1082739702.5371.25.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> > There's also a pretty strong argument that our primary target admin is > going to be managing multiple systems and using kickstart, scripts, thin > client, RHN, or other architectures to avoid configuring them > one-by-one. is it? let me give you a few common examples: 1. prof in the dept with a laptop 2. my dad both run linux. I am the 'admin' for both machines. However I do not have immediate access to ssh into the machine. So I have to be able to talk them through things. Have you ever talked someone through vim or emacs for editing a file in /etc? it's a nightmare. So I think there is definitely an argument for the home user to be editing their config files - even if those files are network configuration and adding a user. -sv From privat at trond-danielsen.org Fri Apr 23 17:10:57 2004 From: privat at trond-danielsen.org (Trond Danielsen) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 19:10:57 +0200 Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <1082734055.16641.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082652116.14007.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082666075.1975.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <54976.192.58.199.186.1082666425.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> <1082670710.8360.11.camel@gibraltar.stuttgart.redhat.com> <1082706789.1961.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20040423143558.53df5b11.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> <1082734055.16641.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <40894E21.3000706@trond-danielsen.org> Tony Grant wrote: > Thanks to pointers in this thread I managed to get rhythmbox running. > > It uses 25% CPU on my Epia-M10000... > > It is huge - both onscreen and in RAM. It takes about 3x the screen real > estate that iTunes (which is too big) takes in reduced mode. > > Why would you want to replace xmms with a program like that? Did I say > that it crashes? > > When it gets slim and fast then it might have a chance but for the > moment this is alpha quality software. > > 0.02? > > Tony Grant > I'm running rhythmbox, and accorting to "top", it only uses 0.7% and less when running minimized to the notification area, where is uses less than 0.5 %. (I have some problems to, but cpu-usage and size is none of them...) -- Trond Danielsen *********************************** _ * http://www.trond-danielsen.org * The ASCII ribbon campaign ( ) * Mobile tlf: +47 99 62 52 35 * against HTML e-mail X * GPG ID: 0x02F29FD9 * http://www.metacon.ca/ascii / \ *********************************** From shahms at shahms.com Fri Apr 23 17:54:13 2004 From: shahms at shahms.com (Shahms King) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 10:54:13 -0700 Subject: Desktop issues discussion proposal In-Reply-To: <1082739702.5371.25.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> References: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <20040421195757.GE8531@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1082667002.3236.6.camel@jMOD.home> <1082676241.2086.265.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082695648.1604.12.camel@fc1> <1082739450.2531.194.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082739702.5371.25.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> Message-ID: <1082742853.1216.9.camel@shahms.mesd.k12.or.us> On Fri, 2004-04-23 at 10:01, seth vidal wrote: > > There's also a pretty strong argument that our primary target admin is > > going to be managing multiple systems and using kickstart, scripts, thin > > client, RHN, or other architectures to avoid configuring them > > one-by-one. > > is it? The strongest argument for that (IMHO) is that a single machine is just the simplest case of multiple networked machines. Having an architecture that is network/multi-host aware allows it to apply equally well to both the individual home user and the LAN sysadmin. > let me give you a few common examples: > 1. prof in the dept with a laptop > 2. my dad > > both run linux. I am the 'admin' for both machines. However I do not > have immediate access to ssh into the machine. So I have to be able to > talk them through things. Have you ever talked someone through vim or > emacs for editing a file in /etc? it's a nightmare. Well, aside from the issues of both vim and emacs being really, really unfriendly to first time users, talking someone through editing a text config file is much easier than trying to have them navigate a UI. Especially since UIs have a habit of changing much more quickly than the on-disk file format. If I'm running FC 3 and I'm trying to guide someone using FC 2 through a UI, the odds are pretty good it's going to take a lot longer than just having them edit the config files by hand. That's not counting the time it's going to take to have them find the right application. Even if the UI hasn't changed significantly, the odds are almost 100% (at this point) that the menu structure will have. > So I think there is definitely an argument for the home user to be > editing their config files - even if those files are network > configuration and adding a user. > > -sv I don't disagree, but this use case *should* be taken care of using the same tools that manage multiple hosts. Assuming the UI isn't poorly designed, most users would have no idea that the tools they were using could be used to manage multiple computers at the same time. -- Shahms King From sflory at rackable.com Fri Apr 23 18:16:52 2004 From: sflory at rackable.com (Samuel Flory) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 11:16:52 -0700 Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <40894E21.3000706@trond-danielsen.org> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082652116.14007.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082666075.1975.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <54976.192.58.199.186.1082666425.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> <1082670710.8360.11.camel@gibraltar.stuttgart.redhat.com> <1082706789.1961.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20040423143558.53df5b11.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> <1082734055.16641.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <40894E21.3000706@trond-danielsen.org> Message-ID: <40895D94.6000308@rackable.com> Trond Danielsen wrote: > Tony Grant wrote: > >> Thanks to pointers in this thread I managed to get rhythmbox running. >> >> It uses 25% CPU on my Epia-M10000... >> >> It is huge - both onscreen and in RAM. It takes about 3x the screen real >> estate that iTunes (which is too big) takes in reduced mode. >> >> Why would you want to replace xmms with a program like that? Did I say >> that it crashes? >> >> When it gets slim and fast then it might have a chance but for the >> moment this is alpha quality software. >> >> 0.02? >> >> Tony Grant >> > I'm running rhythmbox, and accorting to "top", it only uses 0.7% and > less when running minimized to the notification area, where is uses less > than 0.5 %. > > (I have some problems to, but cpu-usage and size is none of them...) > On my system it uses 33% of memory after a day of use: top - 11:05:46 up 22:15, 15 users, load average: 0.27, 0.27, 0.13 Tasks: 95 total, 1 running, 94 sleeping, 0 stopped, 0 zombie Cpu(s): 10.3% us, 1.3% sy, 0.0% ni, 88.1% id, 0.3% wa, 0.0% hi, 0.0% si Mem: 516724k total, 506092k used, 10632k free, 18140k buffers Swap: 1052216k total, 61544k used, 990672k free, 100404k cached PID USER PR NI VIRT RES SHR S %CPU %MEM TIME+ COMMAND 3114 root 15 0 81020 19m 53m S 6.6 3.8 9:12.81 X 3254 sflory 15 0 30560 10m 26m S 0.7 2.1 0:25.02 kdeinit 3267 sflory 15 0 29380 9312 25m S 0.7 1.8 0:00.97 kdeinit 3657 sflory 15 0 234m 166m 20m S 0.7 33.1 8:55.90 rhythmbox Which seems to indicate it's got a massive leak as this it after a few minutes: Cpu(s): 4.3% us, 1.0% sy, 0.0% ni, 94.7% id, 0.0% wa, 0.0% hi, 0.0% si Mem: 516724k total, 426024k used, 90700k free, 25216k buffers Swap: 1052216k total, 41064k used, 1011152k free, 168916k cached PID USER PR NI VIRT RES SHR S %CPU %MEM TIME+ COMMAND 3643 sflory 15 0 196m 86m 36m S 0.3 17.2 12:59.52 mozilla-bin 3114 root 15 0 81132 19m 53m S 0.7 3.8 9:23.38 X 26100 sflory 15 0 82396 15m 20m S 0.7 3.0 0:05.70 rhythmbox Heck even Mozilla and OO aren't that bad!! Cpu(s): 14.0% us, 1.0% sy, 0.0% ni, 85.0% id, 0.0% wa, 0.0% hi, 0.0% si Mem: 516724k total, 511484k used, 5240k free, 24236k buffers Swap: 1052216k total, 41064k used, 1011152k free, 209976k cached PID USER PR NI VIRT RES SHR S %CPU %MEM TIME+ COMMAND 26156 sflory 15 0 188m 87m 104m S 0.0 17.4 0:15.06 soffice.bin 3643 sflory 15 0 196m 86m 36m S 0.0 17.2 13:08.45 mozilla-bin 3114 root 15 0 81164 19m 53m S 10.6 3.9 9:35.22 X 26145 sflory 15 0 56172 13m 20m S 0.7 2.7 0:00.81 xmms -- There is no such thing as obsolete hardware. Merely hardware that other people don't want. (The Second Rule of Hardware Acquisition) Sam Flory From walters at redhat.com Fri Apr 23 18:25:30 2004 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 14:25:30 -0400 Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <40895D94.6000308@rackable.com> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082652116.14007.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082666075.1975.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <54976.192.58.199.186.1082666425.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> <1082670710.8360.11.camel@gibraltar.stuttgart.redhat.com> <1082706789.1961.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20040423143558.53df5b11.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> <1082734055.16641.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <40894E21.3000706@trond-danielsen.org> <40895D94.6000308@rackable.com> Message-ID: <1082744729.2348.16.camel@nexus.verbum.private> On Fri, 2004-04-23 at 14:16, Samuel Flory wrote: > On my system it uses 33% of memory after a day of use: That's clearly a bug somewhere. What version are you using? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From hp at redhat.com Fri Apr 23 19:04:11 2004 From: hp at redhat.com (Havoc Pennington) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 15:04:11 -0400 Subject: Desktop issues discussion proposal In-Reply-To: <1082739702.5371.25.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> References: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <20040421195757.GE8531@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1082667002.3236.6.camel@jMOD.home> <1082676241.2086.265.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082695648.1604.12.camel@fc1> <1082739450.2531.194.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082739702.5371.25.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> Message-ID: <1082747051.2531.241.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2004-04-23 at 13:01, seth vidal wrote: > 1. prof in the dept with a laptop We should be able to get laptops managed. That other thread on fedora-devel mentioned this a bit maybe? Anyway, basically replicate the OS image to them whenever they are connected. If we can't figure out how to manage laptops (require manual config/admin of them) then it's a big problem, since half of corporate desktops are laptops. > 2. my dad This is a home user though as you say, not really a current focus at Red Hat. Though we're happy to see people improving Fedora in this respect and aren't going to reject enhancements for home users. Havoc From hp at redhat.com Fri Apr 23 19:07:35 2004 From: hp at redhat.com (Havoc Pennington) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 15:07:35 -0400 Subject: Desktop issues discussion proposal In-Reply-To: <1082742853.1216.9.camel@shahms.mesd.k12.or.us> References: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <20040421195757.GE8531@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1082667002.3236.6.camel@jMOD.home> <1082676241.2086.265.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082695648.1604.12.camel@fc1> <1082739450.2531.194.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082739702.5371.25.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1082742853.1216.9.camel@shahms.mesd.k12.or.us> Message-ID: <1082747254.2531.244.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2004-04-23 at 13:54, Shahms King wrote: > > let me give you a few common examples: > > 1. prof in the dept with a laptop > > 2. my dad > > > > both run linux. I am the 'admin' for both machines. However I do not > > have immediate access to ssh into the machine. So I have to be able to > > talk them through things. Have you ever talked someone through vim or > > emacs for editing a file in /etc? it's a nightmare. > > Well, aside from the issues of both vim and emacs being really, really > unfriendly to first time users, talking someone through editing a text > config file is much easier than trying to have them navigate a UI. Hmm, though maybe the desktop sharing gadget in FC2 is helpful (although, if ssh doesn't work - is that a firewall thing? - I guess VNC won't either) Has anyone external tried out the desktop sharing in a helpdesk-type situation? Havoc From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Fri Apr 23 19:18:32 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 15:18:32 -0400 Subject: Desktop issues discussion proposal In-Reply-To: <1082747051.2531.241.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <20040421195757.GE8531@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1082667002.3236.6.camel@jMOD.home> <1082676241.2086.265.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082695648.1604.12.camel@fc1> <1082739450.2531.194.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082739702.5371.25.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1082747051.2531.241.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1082747912.5371.65.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> On Fri, 2004-04-23 at 15:04, Havoc Pennington wrote: > On Fri, 2004-04-23 at 13:01, seth vidal wrote: > > 1. prof in the dept with a laptop > > We should be able to get laptops managed. That other thread on > fedora-devel mentioned this a bit maybe? Anyway, basically replicate the > OS image to them whenever they are connected. do you have any idea how intrusive that is? Especially on laptops where hardware gets ODD from release to release. I disagree - there need to be ways for a user to setup and modify config files w/o having to understand each one. If I can't tell the chair how to reconfigure his network adapter for a static ip when he's in some remote location then there is going to be problems. > If we can't figure out how to manage laptops (require manual > config/admin of them) then it's a big problem, since half of corporate > desktops are laptops. show me any other operating system that doesn't have manual administration of configuration settings (system-wide) be able to be done from a gui console? Can you think of ANY? I can think of lots that can't do mass-system-maintenance. But NONE that can't do a single-system maintenance. you're going too far in the opposite direction and it just isn't realistic at all. -sv From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Fri Apr 23 19:20:16 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 15:20:16 -0400 Subject: Desktop issues discussion proposal In-Reply-To: <1082747254.2531.244.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <20040421195757.GE8531@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1082667002.3236.6.camel@jMOD.home> <1082676241.2086.265.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082695648.1604.12.camel@fc1> <1082739450.2531.194.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082739702.5371.25.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1082742853.1216.9.camel@shahms.mesd.k12.or.us> <1082747254.2531.244.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1082748016.5371.67.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> > Hmm, though maybe the desktop sharing gadget in FC2 is helpful > (although, if ssh doesn't work - is that a firewall thing? - I guess VNC > won't either) > > Has anyone external tried out the desktop sharing in a helpdesk-type > situation? > It doesn't work, at all, through firewalls or nat. and it won't help, at all, when the problem is their network connection is hosed up. -sv From mandreiana at rdslink.ro Fri Apr 23 19:32:07 2004 From: mandreiana at rdslink.ro (Marius Andreiana) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 22:32:07 +0300 Subject: shared contacts server (was shared calendar servers In-Reply-To: <1082575489.2023.78.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1082575489.2023.78.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1082748726.5130.6.camel@marte.biciclete.ro> On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 22:24, Havoc Pennington wrote: > Hi, > > We're interested in open source servers that might be interesting as > shared calendar backends for Evolution. How about shared contacts too? I know LDAP can do this, but evolution doesn't seem to be able to write to server, only reading. -- Marius Andreiana Galuna - Solutii Linux in Romania http://www.galuna.ro From mdraghi at prosud.com Fri Apr 23 19:37:57 2004 From: mdraghi at prosud.com (Mariano Draghi) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 16:37:57 -0300 Subject: Desktop issues discussion proposal In-Reply-To: <1082747051.2531.241.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <20040421195757.GE8531@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1082667002.3236.6.camel@jMOD.home> <1082676241.2086.265.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082695648.1604.12.camel@fc1> <1082739450.2531.194.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082739702.5371.25.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1082747051.2531.241.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: Havoc Pennington escribi?: > > This is a home user though as you say, not really a current focus at Red > Hat. Though we're happy to see people improving Fedora in this respect > and aren't going to reject enhancements for home users. > > Havoc > Sorry, but http://fedora.redhat.com/ states: """ The goal of The Fedora Project is to work with the Linux community to build a complete, general purpose operating system exclusively from free software. """ I really don't see where the "home users" are excluded in that definition. I've been thinking that the "corporate" user was a target of RHEL, _not_ Fedora. Besides, many of the latests discussions in this list (rythmbox vs xmms being a very good example) are clearly focused in usability of things that have nothing to do with the corporate desktop client assisted by a IT department. Really, I don't get the point. I'd like if for once someone clearly specifies which is the target audience of Fedora, so others can clearly choose if this is a project where it's worth participating. Please, I _don't_ want to sound rude, but this is the kind of statements that put Fedora as just a pre-beta of RHEL, and I'm afraid that hurts the process. Besides, if RedHat is going to focus only in the things they care (i.e., enterprise), and want others (the community) to do the rest of the work, then Red Hat should set up ASAP the infrastructure so the community can get more involved. Because there is no point in having this loooooong threads here if at the end RedHat is going to do what they want and nothing else. Right now (FC1), Fedora is a very "usable" and general purpose OS. Has this goal changed? When? Why? By whom? This question of what RedHat wants or not wants pops up here and there from time to time... and even people deeply involved in RedHat has different opinions (or goals). Again, I don't see the point of _many_ of the threads in this list (and the others) if Fedora is going to be "Fedora Desktop ENTERPRISE Linux". Sorry for the rant, just my 2 cents... -- Mariano From hp at redhat.com Fri Apr 23 19:46:43 2004 From: hp at redhat.com (Havoc Pennington) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 15:46:43 -0400 Subject: Desktop issues discussion proposal In-Reply-To: <1082747912.5371.65.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> References: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <20040421195757.GE8531@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1082667002.3236.6.camel@jMOD.home> <1082676241.2086.265.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082695648.1604.12.camel@fc1> <1082739450.2531.194.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082739702.5371.25.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1082747051.2531.241.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082747912.5371.65.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> Message-ID: <1082749603.2531.257.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2004-04-23 at 15:18, seth vidal wrote: > > do you have any idea how intrusive that is? Especially on laptops where > hardware gets ODD from release to release. Intrusive how? (Does ODD mean weird emphasized, or is it an acronym?) We're talking about an rsync-equivalent to incorporate changes that have deliberately been queued by the admin. Of course if you have a totally different config for every user/machine, you can't benefit from this (and the ability to keep a stateful thick client system won't go away). The idea is to enable a setup where you are keeping lots of machines in sync, not to prevent a setup where you aren't. > I disagree - there need to be ways for a user to setup and modify config > files w/o having to understand each one. If I can't tell the chair how > to reconfigure his network adapter for a static ip when he's in some > remote location then there is going to be problems. Ah, but does this require root privs or files in /etc when using a managed deployment model, that is the question. > show me any other operating system that doesn't have manual > administration of configuration settings (system-wide) be able to be > done from a gui console? > > Can you think of ANY? I can only think of two other desktop OS's that matter, Windows XP and OS X. We're trying to improve on those in terms of management, though. Other suggestions welcome for how to do so. > I can think of lots that can't do mass-system-maintenance. But NONE that > can't do a single-system maintenance. > > you're going too far in the opposite direction and it just isn't > realistic at all. We can't do everything at once. I'm not looking for ways to say "we won't do XYZ," but ways to say "we will do XYZ first" Don't get worried about current functionality vanishing; the question here is what functionality to add. Havoc From djr at redhat.com Fri Apr 23 19:47:14 2004 From: djr at redhat.com (Daniel Reed) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 15:47:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Desktop issues discussion proposal In-Reply-To: <1082747912.5371.65.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> References: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <20040421195757.GE8531@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1082667002.3236.6.camel@jMOD.home> <1082676241.2086.265.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082695648.1604.12.camel@fc1> <1082739450.2531.194.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082739702.5371.25.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1082747051.2531.241.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082747912.5371.65.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> Message-ID: On 2004-04-23T15:18-0400, seth vidal wrote: ) On Fri, 2004-04-23 at 15:04, Havoc Pennington wrote: ) > If we can't figure out how to manage laptops (require manual ) > config/admin of them) then it's a big problem, since half of corporate ) > desktops are laptops. ) show me any other operating system that doesn't have manual ) administration of configuration settings (system-wide) be able to be ) done from a gui console? http://www.slackware.org/ (everything is done from a traditional console) However, I think you two may be talking past each other. Our goal is not to limit the power of our users, but rather to eliminate the need for their involvement in this task. (In "require manual config," emphasis is on "require.") At worst, we would be enabling individual users' disempowerment by forces in network support. ("Do not reconfigure your machine or face the wrath of hostmaster!") If done well, however, the machines' configuration (automatically determined and/or mass managed) would be robust enough to keep most users from ever worrying about using a "manual override." If the network support staff do not see frequent, repeated problems from the use of manual override, they should not need to issue any mandates about its use. -- Daniel Reed http://people.redhat.com/djr/ From hp at redhat.com Fri Apr 23 20:00:22 2004 From: hp at redhat.com (Havoc Pennington) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 16:00:22 -0400 Subject: Desktop issues discussion proposal In-Reply-To: References: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <20040421195757.GE8531@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1082667002.3236.6.camel@jMOD.home> <1082676241.2086.265.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082695648.1604.12.camel@fc1> <1082739450.2531.194.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082739702.5371.25.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1082747051.2531.241.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1082750421.2531.272.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2004-04-23 at 15:37, Mariano Draghi wrote: > Havoc Pennington escribi?: > > > > > This is a home user though as you say, not really a current focus at Red > > Hat. Though we're happy to see people improving Fedora in this respect > > and aren't going to reject enhancements for home users. > > > > Havoc > > > > Sorry, but http://fedora.redhat.com/ states: > """ > The goal of The Fedora Project is to work with the Linux community to > build a complete, general purpose operating system exclusively from free > software. > """ > > I really don't see where the "home users" are excluded in that definition. > I've been thinking that the "corporate" user was a target of RHEL, _not_ > Fedora. That's why I said "not really a current focus at Red Hat." Other contributors to Fedora could choose to focus on home users (and I'd encourage it). > Besides, many of the latests discussions in this list (rythmbox vs xmms > being a very good example) are clearly focused in usability of things > that have nothing to do with the corporate desktop client assisted by a > IT department. Lots of corporate environments do allow people to listen to music, and have webcasts and conf call recordings and things of that nature. > Really, I don't get the point. My point is primarily that we need to be clear what the context is for every proposed enhancement. Ultimately there are multiple target users and multiple possible deployment scenarios, and you have to design different features and modes of the software to accomodate each of them. In my opinion we can go ahead and assume that home installs won't work the same as corporate installs in many respects. Though personally I would love an easy out-of-the-box way to set up my home network such that I got automatic backups, etc. ... I'm also pretty tech savvy. > Besides, if RedHat is going to focus only in the things they care (i.e., > enterprise), and want others (the community) to do the rest of the work, > then Red Hat should set up ASAP the infrastructure so the community can > get more involved. I certainly agree with that, and Christian and his team are working on it. > Right now (FC1), Fedora is a very "usable" and general purpose OS. Has > this goal changed? When? Why? By whom? The goal has not changed. What we're discussing here is adding new capabilities and focused improvements for particular audiences and scenarios. UI design can't be done "generically," you have to know what your focus is. This is the reason I'm emphasizing our focus, because that is where our design proposals come from. Red Hat does expect home users to be a focus down the line, and we don't want to see the OS go in directions that will preclude that. Both Fedora and RHEL are intended to be general-purpose operating systems; home vs. corporate is not the difference between them (and server vs. desktop *certainly* is not the difference). Anyway, to think about desktop UI and design crisply, we *must* distinguish different kinds of user and deployment scenario. In a whole lot of cases, we'll need multiple UIs. A router and a home desktop for example can't sanely use the same network config dialog. Havoc From hp at redhat.com Fri Apr 23 20:02:01 2004 From: hp at redhat.com (Havoc Pennington) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 16:02:01 -0400 Subject: shared contacts server (was shared calendar servers In-Reply-To: <1082748726.5130.6.camel@marte.biciclete.ro> References: <1082575489.2023.78.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082748726.5130.6.camel@marte.biciclete.ro> Message-ID: <1082750521.2531.275.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2004-04-23 at 15:32, Marius Andreiana wrote: > On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 22:24, Havoc Pennington wrote: > > Hi, > > > > We're interested in open source servers that might be interesting as > > shared calendar backends for Evolution. > How about shared contacts too? I know LDAP can do this, but evolution > doesn't seem to be able to write to server, only reading. > Good point. In an MS architecture, are contacts in Exchange or in AD? Anyone know the answer for Sun, Lotus, Novell? The weakness of LDAP seems to be that it's only people who work at your company. We need some other idea of contacts that includes anyone you email or IM, roughly speaking. Havoc From shahms at shahms.com Fri Apr 23 20:10:50 2004 From: shahms at shahms.com (Shahms King) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 13:10:50 -0700 Subject: shared contacts server (was shared calendar servers In-Reply-To: <1082750521.2531.275.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1082575489.2023.78.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082748726.5130.6.camel@marte.biciclete.ro> <1082750521.2531.275.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1082751050.1216.16.camel@shahms.mesd.k12.or.us> On Fri, 2004-04-23 at 13:02, Havoc Pennington wrote: > On Fri, 2004-04-23 at 15:32, Marius Andreiana wrote: > > On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 22:24, Havoc Pennington wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > We're interested in open source servers that might be interesting as > > > shared calendar backends for Evolution. > > How about shared contacts too? I know LDAP can do this, but evolution > > doesn't seem to be able to write to server, only reading. > > > > Good point. In an MS architecture, are contacts in Exchange or in AD? > Anyone know the answer for Sun, Lotus, Novell? > > The weakness of LDAP seems to be that it's only people who work at your > company. We need some other idea of contacts that includes anyone you > email or IM, roughly speaking. > > Havoc I can't remember off the top of my head if Evolution supports modifying LDAP data, but I think it does. The problem is (mostly) ACLs, it's actually relatively straightforward to allow read-write access for adding entries "beneath" a user's dn, but most people don't do this. Given the proper configuration, LDAP is a perfectly reasonable place to store both "enterprise-wide" and personal contact information. -- Shahms King From sflory at rackable.com Fri Apr 23 20:23:46 2004 From: sflory at rackable.com (Samuel Flory) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 13:23:46 -0700 Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <1082744729.2348.16.camel@nexus.verbum.private> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082652116.14007.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082666075.1975.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <54976.192.58.199.186.1082666425.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> <1082670710.8360.11.camel@gibraltar.stuttgart.redhat.com> <1082706789.1961.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20040423143558.53df5b11.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> <1082734055.16641.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <40894E21.3000706@trond-danielsen.org> <40895D94.6000308@rackable.com> <1082744729.2348.16.camel@nexus.verbum.private> Message-ID: <40897B52.4010804@rackable.com> Colin Walters wrote: > On Fri, 2004-04-23 at 14:16, Samuel Flory wrote: > > >> On my system it uses 33% of memory after a day of use: > > > That's clearly a bug somewhere. What version are you using? > > [root at goblin sflory]# rpm -q rhythmbox rhythmbox-0.8.1-1 It's possible I've pulled in an updated version via yum since I last ran rythmbox. I tend to just leave my ogg player running 24/7. -- There is no such thing as obsolete hardware. Merely hardware that other people don't want. (The Second Rule of Hardware Acquisition) Sam Flory From mdraghi at prosud.com Fri Apr 23 20:31:56 2004 From: mdraghi at prosud.com (Mariano Draghi) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 17:31:56 -0300 Subject: Desktop issues discussion proposal In-Reply-To: <1082750421.2531.272.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1082576193.3045.40.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> <20040421195757.GE8531@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1082667002.3236.6.camel@jMOD.home> <1082676241.2086.265.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082695648.1604.12.camel@fc1> <1082739450.2531.194.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082739702.5371.25.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1082747051.2531.241.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082750421.2531.272.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: Havoc Pennington escribi?: > ... > The goal has not changed. What we're discussing here is adding new > capabilities and focused improvements for particular audiences and > scenarios. > ... > Anyway, to think about desktop UI and design crisply, we *must* > distinguish different kinds of user and deployment scenario. In a whole > lot of cases, we'll need multiple UIs. A router and a home desktop for > example can't sanely use the same network config dialog. It's GOOD to read that! I completely agree in this question of multiple UIs (i.e. multiple solutions). And my concern is that sometimes there seems to be a path (one that I really don't like) where in the name of the simplicity we just cut things off. (I don't want to sound repetitive, but again, the current thread about removing xmms is a good example). I'm ok with the idea of RedHat pushing its own ideas into Fedora (after all, we have Fedora because of RedHat, and I'm _very_ happy with the work that RedHat has done now and in the past as regards UIs and usability) as long as they don't keep others from doing the things RedHat doesn't want. I know that making everybody happy is much more difficult... but at the same time, it's a much more appealing challenge! ;) Thanks Havoc for your thoughts! -- Mariano From julo at altern.org Sat Apr 24 07:40:40 2004 From: julo at altern.org (Julien Olivier) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 08:40:40 +0100 Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> Message-ID: <1082792440.8067.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 18:48, Colin Walters wrote: > So our situation with music players is a little bad. Right now in the > menu we have "Music Player" and "Audio Player". The first is Rhythmbox, > the second is XMMS. A user new to Fedora is going to be baffled by this > - it's like having two clocks. > > Ideally we would only have one music player. I'm hoping to get > Rhythmbox in good enough shape for FC3 that it can replace XMMS for most > use cases. > > What I'm curious of is comments by people who still use XMMS, and why. > What are the most important things to you that need to be fixed in > Rhythmbox? > Hi I've got a simple suggestion that could make rhythmbox better for XMMS users: When you open a file or a selection of files from command line or from Nautilus, they should be added automatically to the main library (this is already the case), and a new playlist should be created, containing only those files. Rhythmbox should then start playing all the files in this newly created playlist, and only them. Then, maybe, it should remove this playlist when you shut it down ? The advantage of this method is that you could easily play all the files in a given folder, or play individual files, without having them lost in your large library. What do you think of that ? -- Julien Olivier From duncanbrown at linuxadvocate.net Sun Apr 25 03:09:44 2004 From: duncanbrown at linuxadvocate.net (duncan brown) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 23:09:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <20040423171014.757d3acb.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082594840.24703.1.camel@fc1> <40882A0B.2080001@optonline.net> <4088300D.2060409@olin.edu> <57143.192.58.199.186.1082667550.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> <40892135.3070109@olin.edu> <20040423171014.757d3acb.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> Message-ID: <50224.138.88.168.45.1082862584.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> i think he's really looking more along the lines of a random package he just downloaded into his home directory. -d Michael Schwendt said: > On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 09:59:17 -0400, Aaron Bennett wrote: > >> Does Yum support resolving local packages's dependencies >> with remote repositories yet? > > You can always add a local file:// repositories to yum.conf, e.g. > > [local] > name=Packages on local hard disk drive > baseurl=file:///var/ftp/pub/rpms > > and if any of the packages from that repository depend on something from > the network, yum will download the missing packages. > > > > -- > Fedora Core release 1 (Yarrow) - Linux 2.4.22-1.2188.nptl -+(duncan brown -+(duncanbrown at linuxadvocate.net -+(http://www.linuxadvocate.net () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ - against microsoft attachments Blessed is the man who, having nothing to say, abstains from giving wordy evidence of the fact. -- George Eliot From fedora at wir-sind-cool.org Sun Apr 25 11:34:49 2004 From: fedora at wir-sind-cool.org (Michael Schwendt) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 13:34:49 +0200 Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <50224.138.88.168.45.1082862584.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082594840.24703.1.camel@fc1> <40882A0B.2080001@optonline.net> <4088300D.2060409@olin.edu> <57143.192.58.199.186.1082667550.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> <40892135.3070109@olin.edu> <20040423171014.757d3acb.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> <50224.138.88.168.45.1082862584.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> Message-ID: <20040425133449.40b60266.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 23:09:44 -0400 (EDT), duncan brown wrote: > i think he's really looking more along the lines of a random package he > just downloaded into his home directory. That would be like rpm option --aid, but with yum taking all known packages into consideration, too. A "random package" may depend on a random repository yum does not know about, however. It may even be incompatible with the distribution. So preferably, a package is not downloaded manually, but downloaded with yum. From duncanbrown at linuxadvocate.net Sun Apr 25 15:38:53 2004 From: duncanbrown at linuxadvocate.net (duncan brown) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 11:38:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <20040425133449.40b60266.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082594840.24703.1.camel@fc1> <40882A0B.2080001@optonline.net> <4088300D.2060409@olin.edu> <57143.192.58.199.186.1082667550.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> <40892135.3070109@olin.edu> <20040423171014.757d3acb.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> <50224.138.88.168.45.1082862584.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> <20040425133449.40b60266.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> Message-ID: <50192.138.88.168.45.1082907533.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> average joe doesn't want to use yum, he wants to be able to double click an icon on his desktop and have things taken care of. no command line, no searching through a gui. now, say he wants to install the cd2ogg rpm from http://www.linuxadvocate.net/yum/fedora/1/linuxadvocate/cd2ogg-2.1-fc1.i386.rpm now, he doesn't have cdparanoia installed (which is one of the requirements) but doesn't want to add my yum repository since this is basically a one off install... so, all he really should do (ideally in his mind) is click on the rpm link which should bring up the option in mozilla/firefox to use a helper application. it downloads, the helper application loads the rpm, says you need cdparanoia and installs that along with the rpm. no command line required, IT'S TAKEN CARE OF FOR HIM. now, i've been compiling my own apps since 1993 so yum is really a life saver for me, but that's also considering i'm a sysadmin professionally, 99.9999999999999999% of the population isn't. don't think like a sysadmin when it comes to package management, think like someone who doesn't want to deal with details and command line flags. KISS. does someone have to deal with command line flags to install winamp or yahoo messenger? all this can be solved with letting synaptic take command line options (transparent to the desktop user) to install a package and resolve the dependencies for the person. i mean, what's with this stigma that apt/synaptic seems to have with the fedora hardcore core? it's a great tool (if somewhat resource thirsty) which needs one option added and this is taken care of. no more worries. -d Michael Schwendt said: > On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 23:09:44 -0400 (EDT), duncan brown wrote: > >> i think he's really looking more along the lines of a random package >> he just downloaded into his home directory. > > That would be like rpm option --aid, but with yum taking all known > packages into consideration, too. A "random package" may depend on a > random repository yum does not know about, however. It may even be > incompatible with the distribution. So preferably, a package is not > downloaded manually, but downloaded with yum. > > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list -+(duncan brown -+(duncanbrown at linuxadvocate.net -+(http://www.linuxadvocate.net () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ - against microsoft attachments Blessed is the man who, having nothing to say, abstains from giving wordy evidence of the fact. -- George Eliot From fedora at wir-sind-cool.org Sun Apr 25 16:27:38 2004 From: fedora at wir-sind-cool.org (Michael Schwendt) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 18:27:38 +0200 Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <50192.138.88.168.45.1082907533.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082594840.24703.1.camel@fc1> <40882A0B.2080001@optonline.net> <4088300D.2060409@olin.edu> <57143.192.58.199.186.1082667550.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> <40892135.3070109@olin.edu> <20040423171014.757d3acb.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> <50224.138.88.168.45.1082862584.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> <20040425133449.40b60266.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> <50192.138.88.168.45.1082907533.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> Message-ID: <20040425182738.2e2b957f.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 11:38:53 -0400 (EDT), duncan brown wrote: > average joe doesn't want to use yum, he wants to be able to double click > an icon on his desktop and have things taken care of. no command line, no > searching through a gui. I do understand you, but that doesn't change my perspective. A "random package" at an arbitrary site on the Internet may have dependencies on packages found on the same site or a completely different site. It needs more for a one-click web-based installation to be successful. > now, say he wants to install the cd2ogg rpm from > http://www.linuxadvocate.net/yum/fedora/1/linuxadvocate/cd2ogg-2.1-fc1.i386.rpm > > now, he doesn't have cdparanoia installed (which is one of the > requirements) but doesn't want to add my yum repository since this is > basically a one off install... so, all he really should do (ideally in his > mind) is click on the rpm link which should bring up the option in > mozilla/firefox to use a helper application. Just that ".rpm" usually is served as RealAudio MIME type and not RPM: $ grep rpm /etc/mime.types application/x-rpm rpm #audio/x-pn-realaudio-plugin rpm > it downloads, the helper > application loads the rpm, says you need cdparanoia and installs that > along with the rpm. no command line required, IT'S TAKEN CARE OF FOR HIM. Or with many problems like we have currently when a user downloads a "random package" (still quoting you here ;) and double-clicks on it in his browser, e.g. Konqueror, and it attempts at installing the package with the redhat-install-packages helper tool and fails because of unsolvable dependencies. Before we attempt at simplifying installation of random packages manually downloaded from arbitrary locations, Fedora Extras should come to life and provide a good foundation of extra packages and a web of mirror sites which is known to yum/up2date/apt _by default_. > does someone have to deal with command line flags to install winamp or > yahoo messenger? Apples and oranges. In particular if an installer .exe contains enough DLLs to overwrite system files if need be. It's a usual installation scenario that Joe User gets a graphical error dialog telling him that Foo 8.1 is required for the installation to succeed. > all this can be solved with letting synaptic take command line options > (transparent to the desktop user) to install a package and resolve the > dependencies for the person. Provided that the package sources are known to the APT-RPM backend. Same for Yum. From robdumas at optonline.net Sun Apr 25 18:22:18 2004 From: robdumas at optonline.net (Robert Dumas) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 14:22:18 -0400 Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <50192.138.88.168.45.1082907533.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082594840.24703.1.camel@fc1> <40882A0B.2080001@optonline.net> <4088300D.2060409@olin.edu> <57143.192.58.199.186.1082667550.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> <40892135.3070109@olin.edu> <20040423171014.757d3acb.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> <50224.138.88.168.45.1082862584.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> <20040425133449.40b60266.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> <50192.138.88.168.45.1082907533.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> Message-ID: <408C01DA.2010005@optonline.net> duncan brown wrote: > average joe doesn't want to use yum, he wants to be able to double click > an icon on his desktop and have things taken care of. no command line, no > searching through a gui. > > now, say he wants to install the cd2ogg rpm from > http://www.linuxadvocate.net/yum/fedora/1/linuxadvocate/cd2ogg-2.1-fc1.i386.rpm > > now, he doesn't have cdparanoia installed (which is one of the > requirements) but doesn't want to add my yum repository since this is > basically a one off install... so, all he really should do (ideally in his > mind) is click on the rpm link which should bring up the option in > mozilla/firefox to use a helper application. it downloads, the helper > application loads the rpm, says you need cdparanoia and installs that > along with the rpm. no command line required, IT'S TAKEN CARE OF FOR HIM. Duncan brings up a really good point here: installing an application is extraordinarily simple in other operating systems. In Windows, all you have to do is run the downloaded file, which launches the installer. In Mac OS X, You simply drag the image to the Applications folder. Installing something, ANYTHING, ought to be at least as simple as launching an installer. So the default behaviour for an RPM on the desktop (or getting it from a link) ought to be to bring up a dialogue window that does something along the lines of beginning to check dependencies to install the package. If any required packages are not present, as in the case of cd2ogg needing cdparanoia, the dialogue informs the user. It then, perhaps, lets him pick a mirror (or, I imagine, torrent tracker) from which to download the requirement, gets and installs it. The way packages are installed still needs to be thought of more in users' terms; most users of Windows or Mac OS know that there's a dirt-simple way of installing applications and although Linux has come a very long way in a very short time, it's still not easy enough that my dad could install a package without a lot of help from me (read: me, installing it for him). -- Robert D. -------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dumas // robdumas at optonline.net http://obnoxio.us/ // AIM: ThisMessIAmIn -------------------------------------------------------------- My OpenPGP public key is available at: http://obnoxio.us/about/publickey/ From duncanbrown at linuxadvocate.net Mon Apr 26 13:01:05 2004 From: duncanbrown at linuxadvocate.net (duncan brown) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 09:01:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <20040425182738.2e2b957f.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082594840.24703.1.camel@fc1> <40882A0B.2080001@optonline.net> <4088300D.2060409@olin.edu> <57143.192.58.199.186.1082667550.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> <40892135.3070109@olin.edu> <20040423171014.757d3acb.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> <50224.138.88.168.45.1082862584.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> <20040425133449.40b60266.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> <50192.138.88.168.45.1082907533.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> <20040425182738.2e2b957f.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> Message-ID: <63501.192.58.199.187.1082984465.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> i'm not looking for an argument, just bringing out points. i'm a long time sysadmin (read: 9+ years), but i've found myself looking for more and more KISS solutions for everything in my IT life, which has really changed my perspective on DIY. i now run a hardware based stand-alone firewall/nat instead of a low powered linux firewall, i put a wireless ethernet bridge in my living room to hook everything up instead of a linux box as a wireless bridge (which i do have in my home office room, so it's not a matter of not having the savvy, but i definitely see a need for KISS. besides, it's going to be replaced with a hardware based bridge soon anyway) Michael Schwendt said: > On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 11:38:53 -0400 (EDT), duncan brown wrote: > > I do understand you, but that doesn't change my perspective. A "random > package" at an arbitrary site on the Internet may have dependencies on > packages found on the same site or a completely different site. It needs > more for a one-click web-based installation to be successful. ok, going along with this, i completely agree with you. it was a simplified example. maybe what we need is something like a file format or script that'll add the arbitrary site's package list to your gui package installer's ''available and semi-trusted'' (read: won't overwrite any packages or files provided by the base/extras list) and will then have the ability to download and install software from this site and resolve dependencies. while i'm on this track, i think rpms need to be able to be installed by any user, but only into their own home dir and accessable by themselves only. joe's logged into gnome and wants to install cd2ogg, but he doesn't have root access... sure, he could grab the .tar.gz and just put it in ~/bin and add that to his $PATH, but that's what we want to get away from. he should have the ability to have rpm install the script and any dependencies that aren't already resident on the system into his own ~/bin or whatever directory. now, let's say that root installs the cdparanoia package a month after joe installs it into his userspace's rpm database. the root rpm database checks the joe's rpm database (let's say ~/.myrpm.db) to see if anyone else has cdparanoia installed and then either removes the rpm in joe's user space, or (as joe should have the option) leave it alone and let joe keep on using it. > Or with many problems like we have currently when a user downloads a > "random package" (still quoting you here ;) and double-clicks on it in > his browser, e.g. Konqueror, and it attempts at installing the package > with the redhat-install-packages helper tool and fails because of > unsolvable dependencies. but we're not talking about redhat-install-packages. we're talking about some product that's still in the ether that'll remove any reliance on yum/apt/etc that we have right now. i'm talking about using apt because it works for me now, but it's not everything that's needed. synaptic is as good as it gets at the moment and it's a great leap in the right direction, but i think that something better needs to happen that incorporates what i've already said. > Before we attempt at simplifying installation of random packages > manually downloaded from arbitrary locations, Fedora Extras should come > to life and provide a good foundation of extra packages and a web of > mirror sites which is known to yum/up2date/apt _by default_. but it's not about arbitrary websites! it's about the user and programs that they want to use. fedora and extras don't have mono in their repositories, but the user wants to use it. they should be able to just click a link on mono's site and have mono added to their semi-trusted list of places to get software. >> does someone have to deal with command line flags to install winamp or >> yahoo messenger? > > Apples and oranges. In particular if an installer .exe contains enough > DLLs to overwrite system files if need be. It's a usual installation > scenario that Joe User gets a graphical error dialog telling him that > Foo 8.1 is required for the installation to succeed. i don't see how the simplicity of installing a piece of software on windows is an orange to the apple of linux's rpm/deb/etc. and yeah, you get dependencies, but they're so RARE. and they need to be able to be non-existant as far as the user having to do research on where to find it and the correct version for their system. just because windows has a bug^H^H^Hfeature like gui windows notifying you of a dependency, that doesn't mean we need it too. users want to use. they don't care what gets them there, they just want to get there. >> all this can be solved with letting synaptic take command line options >> (transparent to the desktop user) to install a package and resolve the >> dependencies for the person. > > Provided that the package sources are known to the APT-RPM backend. Same > for Yum. i may be wrong, but hasn't there been chatter about the apt and yum repos becomming cross-[?platform?] compatible? -+(duncan brown -+(duncanbrown at linuxadvocate.net -+(http://www.linuxadvocate.net () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ - against microsoft attachments Blessed is the man who, having nothing to say, abstains from giving wordy evidence of the fact. -- George Eliot From fedora at wir-sind-cool.org Mon Apr 26 13:42:01 2004 From: fedora at wir-sind-cool.org (Michael Schwendt) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 15:42:01 +0200 Subject: Simplifying package installation (was: replacing XMMS) In-Reply-To: <63501.192.58.199.187.1082984465.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082594840.24703.1.camel@fc1> <40882A0B.2080001@optonline.net> <4088300D.2060409@olin.edu> <57143.192.58.199.186.1082667550.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> <40892135.3070109@olin.edu> <20040423171014.757d3acb.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> <50224.138.88.168.45.1082862584.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> <20040425133449.40b60266.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> <50192.138.88.168.45.1082907533.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> <20040425182738.2e2b957f.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> <63501.192.58.199.187.1082984465.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> Message-ID: <20040426154201.2c2e40a9.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 09:01:05 -0400 (EDT), duncan brown wrote: > while i'm on this track, i think rpms need to be able to be installed by > any user, but only into their own home dir and accessable by themselves > only. joe's logged into gnome and wants to install cd2ogg, but he doesn't > have root access... sure, he could grab the .tar.gz and just put it in > ~/bin and add that to his $PATH, but that's what we want to get away from. > he should have the ability to have rpm install the script and any > dependencies that aren't already resident on the system into his own ~/bin > or whatever directory. First the software must be made fully relocatable and, for instance, find its translation modules and not expect its data files in a location that was hardcoded at build-time. And of course, it must ignore a global instance installed into the system by the administrator and allow for switching back and forth between local installation and system-wide installation (e.g. in its configuration data). > now, let's say that root installs the cdparanoia > package a month after joe installs it into his userspace's rpm database. > the root rpm database checks the joe's rpm database (let's say > ~/.myrpm.db) to see if anyone else has cdparanoia installed and then > either removes the rpm in joe's user space, or (as joe should have the > option) leave it alone and let joe keep on using it. Does this scale? And what about security flaws in the locally installed packages? > but we're not talking about redhat-install-packages. No, we're not. But it illustrates some of the problems with random packages downloaded of the Internet. > fedora and extras don't have mono in their > repositories, but the user wants to use it. they should be able to just > click a link on mono's site and have mono added to their semi-trusted list > of places to get software. Assume the following packages ( http://www.go-mono.com/archive/0.31/fedora-1-i386/ ) install cleanly in Fedora Core 1 if they were contained within a repository and you could add that repository easily to your favourite package utility. One of the Fedora Project's objectives is "Create an environment where third party packages are easy to add and positive encouragement and support exists for third party packaging." Common meta data for yum/apt and others are one step on the way to making access to repositories easier. The jump from a loose collection of binary rpm files offered at some web site to a one-click installation is not a small one. > i don't see how the simplicity of installing a piece of software on > windows is an orange to the apple of linux's rpm/deb/etc. and yeah, you > get dependencies, but they're so RARE. and they need to be able to be > non-existant as far as the user having to do research on where to find it > and the correct version for their system. just because windows has a > bug^H^H^Hfeature like gui windows notifying you of a dependency, that > doesn't mean we need it too. It's a bad comparison in that with packages created by arbitrary open source software projects we face a different dependency scenario, in particular if a package contains explicit dependencies added manually by the packager, which do more damage than helping the user. For instance, a simple version mismatch between the installed version of Python and the required version of Python, or a different package name used on different Linux distributions, and a package would refuse to install (and I don't even cover cross-distribution package compatibility). Compare that with a proprietary system. From duncanbrown at linuxadvocate.net Mon Apr 26 15:30:40 2004 From: duncanbrown at linuxadvocate.net (duncan brown) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 11:30:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Simplifying package installation (was: replacing XMMS) In-Reply-To: <20040426154201.2c2e40a9.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082594840.24703.1.camel@fc1> <40882A0B.2080001@optonline.net> <4088300D.2060409@olin.edu> <57143.192.58.199.186.1082667550.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> <40892135.3070109@olin.edu> <20040423171014.757d3acb.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> <50224.138.88.168.45.1082862584.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> <20040425133449.40b60266.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> <50192.138.88.168.45.1082907533.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> <20040425182738.2e2b957f.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> <63501.192.58.199.187.1082984465.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> <20040426154201.2c2e40a9.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> Message-ID: <50023.192.58.199.185.1082993440.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> Michael Schwendt said: > On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 09:01:05 -0400 (EDT), duncan brown wrote: > >> while i'm on this track, i think rpms need to be able to be installed > First the software must be made fully relocatable and, for instance, > find its translation modules and not expect its data files in a location > that was hardcoded at build-time. And of course, it must ignore a global > instance installed into the system by the administrator and allow for > switching back and forth between local installation and system-wide > installation (e.g. in its configuration data). (utopian rant warning) well, in perfect world, things would be coded to not look in predetermined places, it should be a user variable. now, if something is configured to work in that fashion, then there should be a flag in the .spec for the rpm stating so. what about chroot style environment that only affects the current user? something where the libraries/binaries the user installed for himself are available, and symlinks to the system's libraries and binaries are located in the same environment. > Does this scale? And what about security flaws in the locally installed > packages? what security flaws? there are inherent security problems just letting people TOUCH a system. do you mean security updates? something along those lines should be based upon the preferences of the ADMIN, not the user. if the user's using software with known flaws, the admin should be able to remove the user's package and have him use the locally installed one. now, if you're talking about updates, then the user should update the package. maybe in our utopian package management suite we'd have the option to update our user installed package. > Assume the following packages ( > http://www.go-mono.com/archive/0.31/fedora-1-i386/ ) install cleanly in > Fedora Core 1 if they were contained within a repository and you could > add that repository easily to your favourite package utility. One of > the Fedora Project's objectives is "Create an environment where third > party packages are easy to add and positive encouragement and support > exists for third party packaging." Common meta data for yum/apt and > others are one step on the way to making access to repositories easier. > The jump from a loose collection of binary rpm files offered at some web > site to a one-click installation is not a small one. that's exactly what i wrote about previously. a user should be able to click on a link on a website or run a downloaded script that adds the repository to their repository list. there should also be something the same for system-wide repositories. it's not a small task, i know. and i'm not really equipped to work on something like this myself (php and bash are about the height of my coding skills), i'm just trying to throw ideas out as to what i've heard from alot of people that i've thrown fedora at that either havn't had much (if any) computer experience and ones who have extensive windows use experience but no linux... and they all say the same thing about software installation. they basically want to install software without going through hassle (all were impressed with synaptic, though somewhat intimidated) i think that someone needs to do a usability study, a real FORMAL one. i wouldn't mind doing it, but i don't have the resources beyond just giving people i've thrown fedora at a questionnaire... the problem here is it's sysadmins and people that aren't intimidated by computers discussing this. we need a PHB or a mom's input. -d > >> i don't see how the simplicity of installing a piece of software on >> windows is an orange to the apple of linux's rpm/deb/etc. and yeah, >> you get dependencies, but they're so RARE. and they need to be able >> to be non-existant as far as the user having to do research on where >> to find it and the correct version for their system. just because >> windows has a bug^H^H^Hfeature like gui windows notifying you of a >> dependency, that doesn't mean we need it too. > > It's a bad comparison in that with packages created by arbitrary open > source software projects we face a different dependency scenario, in > particular if a package contains explicit dependencies added manually by > the packager, which do more damage than helping the user. For instance, > a simple version mismatch between the installed version of Python and > the required version of Python, or a different package name used on > different Linux distributions, and a package would refuse to install > (and I don't even cover cross-distribution package compatibility). > Compare that with a proprietary system. > > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list -+(duncan brown -+(duncanbrown at linuxadvocate.net -+(http://www.linuxadvocate.net () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ - against microsoft attachments Blessed is the man who, having nothing to say, abstains from giving wordy evidence of the fact. -- George Eliot From sflory at rackable.com Mon Apr 26 17:01:04 2004 From: sflory at rackable.com (Samuel Flory) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 10:01:04 -0700 Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <1082744729.2348.16.camel@nexus.verbum.private> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082652116.14007.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082666075.1975.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <54976.192.58.199.186.1082666425.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> <1082670710.8360.11.camel@gibraltar.stuttgart.redhat.com> <1082706789.1961.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20040423143558.53df5b11.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> <1082734055.16641.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <40894E21.3000706@trond-danielsen.org> <40895D94.6000308@rackable.com> <1082744729.2348.16.camel@nexus.verbum.private> Message-ID: <408D4050.2080309@rackable.com> Colin Walters wrote: > On Fri, 2004-04-23 at 14:16, Samuel Flory wrote: > > >> On my system it uses 33% of memory after a day of use: > > > That's clearly a bug somewhere. What version are you using? > > Yep leaking memory like you wouldn't believe. This was after leaving it on over the weekend. Mem: 516724k total, 511136k used, 5588k free, 13512k buffers Swap: 1052216k total, 439156k used, 613060k free, 49388k cached PID USER PR NI VIRT RES SHR S %CPU %MEM TIME+ COMMAND 4856 sflory 16 0 510m 316m 20m S 0.7 62.7 24:19.26 rhythmbox 27798 sflory 15 0 170m 35m 36m S 0.0 7.0 11:05.34 mozilla-bin 3114 root 15 0 80336 8340 53m S 1.0 1.6 22:05.65 X [root at goblin sflory]# rpm -q rhythmbox rhythmbox-0.8.1-1 [root at goblin sflory]# cat /etc/fedora-release Fedora Core release 1.92 (FC2 Test 3) -- There is no such thing as obsolete hardware. Merely hardware that other people don't want. (The Second Rule of Hardware Acquisition) Sam Flory From hp at redhat.com Wed Apr 28 18:11:25 2004 From: hp at redhat.com (Havoc Pennington) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 14:11:25 -0400 Subject: [OT] fedora-desktop not working ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1083175885.2210.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-04-28 at 12:33, Mariano Draghi wrote: > Hi, > I wonder if someone arround here can confirm if the fedora-desktop list > is having any problem (since almost 2 days ago...) > I'm not getting posts; and the list archive at www.redhat.com hasn't any > post either since Apr 26th. > That's puzzling me, because the other lists are working just fine. > I'm reading the lists through Gmane, but if the official archive at Red > Hat is not updated, I suppose it's not a Gmane (NNTP) problem. > There just haven't been any posts; all of Red Hat was out of town, and I guess nobody else had anything to say ;-) Havoc From mdraghi at prosud.com Wed Apr 28 18:36:21 2004 From: mdraghi at prosud.com (Mariano Draghi) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 15:36:21 -0300 Subject: [OT] fedora-desktop not working ? In-Reply-To: <1083175885.2210.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1083175885.2210.30.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: Havoc Pennington escribi?: > There just haven't been any posts; all of Red Hat was out of town, and I > guess nobody else had anything to say ;-) Weird indeed... after all the past week activity! I guess I miss the discussions ;) Thanks for your reply! -- Mariano From sopwith at redhat.com Wed Apr 21 16:46:33 2004 From: sopwith at redhat.com (Elliot Lee) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 12:46:33 -0400 Subject: subscribe Message-ID: <200404211646.i3LGkXpF024132@devserv.devel.redhat.com> From sopwith at redhat.com Wed Apr 28 16:09:53 2004 From: sopwith at redhat.com (Elliot Lee) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 12:09:53 -0400 Subject: Fedora Project Mailing Lists reminder Message-ID: <200404281609.i3SG9rdS017524@ostrich-deluxe.devel.redhat.com> This is a reminder of the mailing lists for the Fedora Project, and the purpose of each list. You can view this information at http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/communicate/ When you're using these mailing lists, please take the time to choose the one that is most appropriate to your post. If you don't know the right mailing list to use for a question or discussion, please contact me. This will help you get the best possible answer for your question, and keep other list subscribers happy! Mailing Lists Mailing lists are email addresses which send email to all users subscribed to the mailing list. Sending an email to a mailing list reaches all users interested in discussing a specific topic and users available to help other users with the topic. The following mailing lists are available. To subscribe, send email to -request at redhat.com (replace with the desired mailing list name such as fedora-list) with the word subscribe in the subject. fedora-announce-list - Announcements of changes and events fedora-list - For users of releases fedora-test-list - For testers of test releases fedora-devel-list - For developers, developers, developers fedora-docs-list - For participants of the docs project fedora-desktop-list - For discussions about desktop issues such as user interfaces, artwork, and usability fedora-config-list - For discussions about the development of configuration tools fedora-legacy-list - For discussions about the Fedora Legacy Project fedora-selinux-list - For discussions about the Fedora SELinux Project fedora-de-list - For discussions about Fedora in the German language fedora-ja-list - For discussions about Fedora in the Japanese language fedora-i18n-list - For discussions about the internationalization of Fedora Core fedora-trans-list - For discussions about translating the software and documentation associated with the Fedora Project German: fedora-trans-de French: fedora-trans-fr Spanish: fedora-trans-es Italian: fedora-trans-it Brazilian Portuguese: fedora-trans-pt_br Japanese: fedora-trans-ja Korean: fedora-trans-ko Simplified Chinese: fedora-trans-zh_cn Traditional Chinese: fedora-trans-zh_tw From walters at redhat.com Fri Apr 30 20:18:12 2004 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 16:18:12 -0400 Subject: replacing XMMS In-Reply-To: <408D4050.2080309@rackable.com> References: <1082569691.2438.18.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <1082652116.14007.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1082666075.1975.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> <54976.192.58.199.186.1082666425.squirrel@atom.csionline.net> <1082670710.8360.11.camel@gibraltar.stuttgart.redhat.com> <1082706789.1961.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20040423143558.53df5b11.fedora@wir-sind-cool.org> <1082734055.16641.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <40894E21.3000706@trond-danielsen.org> <40895D94.6000308@rackable.com> <1082744729.2348.16.camel@nexus.verbum.private> <408D4050.2080309@rackable.com> Message-ID: <1083356292.32388.0.camel@nexus.verbum.private> On Mon, 2004-04-26 at 13:01, Samuel Flory wrote: > Yep leaking memory like you wouldn't believe. This was after leaving > it on over the weekend. > > Mem: 516724k total, 511136k used, 5588k free, 13512k buffers > Swap: 1052216k total, 439156k used, 613060k free, 49388k cached > > PID USER PR NI VIRT RES SHR S %CPU %MEM TIME+ COMMAND > 4856 sflory 16 0 510m 316m 20m S 0.7 62.7 24:19.26 rhythmbox Do you by any chance have an automatic playlist that's size limited? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: