From yusufg at outblaze.com Mon Nov 8 02:50:02 2004 From: yusufg at outblaze.com (Yusuf Goolamabbas) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 10:50:02 +0800 Subject: Firefox 1.0 (Official) and Gnome integration issues with FC3 Message-ID: <20041108025002.GC20961@outblaze.com> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=268314 bryner might take a fix for 1.0, the firefox packaged with FC3 doesn't exhibit this behaviour though. Some more info in this thread on the aviary list http://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/aviary/2004-November/000131.html -- Yusuf Goolamabbas yusufg at outblaze.com From marshal at bisdex.com Mon Nov 8 04:35:15 2004 From: marshal at bisdex.com (William McInnis) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 22:35:15 -0600 Subject: what about rhgb staying up after boot Message-ID: <000f01c4c54c$67e82530$2f01a8c0@emilie> ok i have a laptop and when rhgb is booting i can use full screen is there a) a way to make rhgb to say up after boot b) make rhgb themeable ? thanks for answers in advance -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From veillard at redhat.com Mon Nov 8 06:59:07 2004 From: veillard at redhat.com (Daniel Veillard) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 01:59:07 -0500 Subject: what about rhgb staying up after boot In-Reply-To: <000f01c4c54c$67e82530$2f01a8c0@emilie> References: <000f01c4c54c$67e82530$2f01a8c0@emilie> Message-ID: <20041108065907.GA7462@redhat.com> On Sun, Nov 07, 2004 at 10:35:15PM -0600, William McInnis wrote: > ok i have a laptop and when rhgb is booting i can use full screen is there > a) a way to make rhgb to say up after boot what would be the purpose ? I don't see the point, rhgb is really eye candy and user interface improvement for the duration of the system boot, once the system is booted the login session is taking control over the graphical console. > b) make rhgb themeable ? might be doable at some point but not really urgent. Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat Desktop team http://redhat.com/ veillard at redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From chapmanccc at juno.com Thu Nov 11 14:58:31 2004 From: chapmanccc at juno.com (chapmanccc at juno.com) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 14:58:31 GMT Subject: Professionalism Message-ID: <20041111.065903.12238.134202@webmail32.nyc.untd.com> To the developers, The Linux operating system is maturing and we all hope that it will be a major contender in the home and business markets. As it approaches this goal, the customer base changes. Linux is no longer the "geek OS" it once was. Where once the predominant profile of a Linux user was a young male, you now find fathers and husbands (I am both), women (I am married to one) and children (I have three). Linux is my main OS at home and my wife and oldest child also use it. With this evolution, a level of professionalism must also take place. Being that the Fedora project is one of the leading consumer Linux distributions, I would hope the developers would want to 'lead the pack' in this area. This brings me to my point. I was rather disappointed with the content in the "WebCollage" and "Barcode" screensavers. These screensavers have since been manually removed from my system, but I would have preferred them not to be installed by default. When I install Mac OS or Windows, garbage like this is not included. Why? Because the developers strive to build a professional product. Yes, I can install items like this with Mac OS or Windows, but I would need to download or purchase them after installing the OS. Developers, please be considerate when creating the Fedora distributions and let's strive to make Linux as professional as possible. Thank you, Chris ________________________________________________________________ Juno Platinum $9.95. Juno SpeedBand $14.95. Sign up for Juno Today at http://www.juno.com! Look for special offers at Best Buy stores. From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Thu Nov 11 15:08:30 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:08:30 -0500 Subject: Professionalism In-Reply-To: <20041111.065903.12238.134202@webmail32.nyc.untd.com> References: <20041111.065903.12238.134202@webmail32.nyc.untd.com> Message-ID: <1100185711.3094.27.camel@binkley> On Thu, 2004-11-11 at 14:58 +0000, chapmanccc at juno.com wrote: > To the developers, > > The Linux operating system is maturing and we all hope that it will be > a major contender in the home and business markets. As it approaches > this goal, the customer base changes. Linux is no longer the "geek > OS" it once was. Where once the predominant profile of a Linux user > was a young male, you now find fathers and husbands (I am both), women > (I am married to one) and children (I have three). Linux is my main > OS at home and my wife and oldest child also use it. > > With this evolution, a level of professionalism must also take place. > Being that the Fedora project is one of the leading consumer Linux > distributions, I would hope the developers would want to 'lead the > pack' in this area. > > This brings me to my point. I was rather disappointed with the > content in the "WebCollage" and "Barcode" screensavers. These > screensavers have since been manually removed from my system, but I > would have preferred them not to be installed by default. When I > install Mac OS or Windows, garbage like this is not included. Why? > Because the developers strive to build a professional product. Yes, I > can install items like this with Mac OS or Windows, but I would need > to download or purchase them after installing the OS. > > Developers, please be considerate when creating the Fedora > distributions and let's strive to make Linux as professional as > possible. I agree, We should have more professional behavior. And since most professionals are adults and know that world is filled with all sorts of things that _you_ may not like but that others may, I think we should respect the differences between people and let adults choose what behavior of their screensavers they want. Therefore, I recommend screensaver preferences! In EVERY DESKTOP! The ability to choose a screensaver must be included in the distribution to put a stop to this anti-professional degradation. oh.. wait.. they're already there. hmm. -sv From markmc at redhat.com Thu Nov 11 15:33:16 2004 From: markmc at redhat.com (Mark McLoughlin) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 15:33:16 +0000 Subject: Professionalism In-Reply-To: <20041111.065903.12238.134202@webmail32.nyc.untd.com> References: <20041111.065903.12238.134202@webmail32.nyc.untd.com> Message-ID: <1100187195.7587.19.camel@blaa> Hi Chris, On Thu, 2004-11-11 at 14:58, chapmanccc at juno.com wrote: > To the developers, > > The Linux operating system is maturing and we all hope that it will be > a major contender in the home and business markets. As it approaches > this goal, the customer base changes. Linux is no longer the "geek > OS" it once was. Where once the predominant profile of a Linux user > was a young male, you now find fathers and husbands (I am both), women > (I am married to one) and children (I have three). Linux is my main > OS at home and my wife and oldest child also use it. > > With this evolution, a level of professionalism must also take place. > Being that the Fedora project is one of the leading consumer Linux > distributions, I would hope the developers would want to 'lead the > pack' in this area. > > This brings me to my point. I was rather disappointed with the > content in the "WebCollage" and "Barcode" screensavers. These > screensavers have since been manually removed from my system, but I > would have preferred them not to be installed by default. When I > install Mac OS or Windows, garbage like this is not included. Why? > Because the developers strive to build a professional product. Yes, I > can install items like this with Mac OS or Windows, but I would need > to download or purchase them after installing the OS. I think Ray has recently done work to put some of the screensavers into a package which isn't installed by default. I agree that it might be worthwhile to put some of the more geeky screensavers into that package. Its always going to be a tough call to decide which ones should be installed by default and which ones shouldn't, but logging a bug bugzilla.redhat.com/xscreensaver with your suggestions for which ones shouldn't be installed by default (with a rationale for each suggestion). > Developers, please be considerate when creating the Fedora > distributions and let's strive to make Linux as professional as > possible. Thanks for the advice. I'll start acting more professional tomorrow. Cheers, Mark. From mattdm at mattdm.org Thu Nov 11 15:34:40 2004 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:34:40 -0500 Subject: "Professionalism" In-Reply-To: <20041111.065903.12238.134202@webmail32.nyc.untd.com> References: <20041111.065903.12238.134202@webmail32.nyc.untd.com> Message-ID: <20041111153440.GB23142@jadzia.bu.edu> On Thu, Nov 11, 2004 at 02:58:31PM +0000, chapmanccc at juno.com wrote: > This brings me to my point. I was rather disappointed with the content in > the "WebCollage" and "Barcode" screensavers. These screensavers have since > been manually removed from my system, but I would have preferred them not WebCollage doesn't have any content. It gets it from this thing called "the Internet". If you look at its documentation, it even tells you that. What's more, it's there but not enabled by default. I'm not sure what particular word has offended you in Barcode, but it's basically picking from a random dictionary. And, if you look at the source RPM, you'll find a patch which removes several words referring to parts of the human body some people find embarrassing. I looked at the remaining list, and am perplexed as to what you are offended by. "Gerbils", perhaps? -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> From davej at redhat.com Thu Nov 11 15:49:59 2004 From: davej at redhat.com (Dave Jones) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:49:59 -0500 Subject: "Professionalism" In-Reply-To: <20041111153440.GB23142@jadzia.bu.edu> References: <20041111.065903.12238.134202@webmail32.nyc.untd.com> <20041111153440.GB23142@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: <20041111154958.GD22473@redhat.com> On Thu, Nov 11, 2004 at 10:34:40AM -0500, Matthew Miller wrote: > I'm not sure what particular word has offended you in Barcode, but it's > basically picking from a random dictionary. And, if you look at the source > RPM, you'll find a patch which removes several words referring to parts of > the human body some people find embarrassing. I looked at the remaining > list, and am perplexed as to what you are offended by. "Gerbils", perhaps? At OLS last year (I think during Erik Troan's talk on conary), whilst taking questions, barcode kicked in. On a ~10ft projector, with the word 'flatulence'. Unfortunate and somewhat embarressing perhaps, but highly amusing. The choice of words barcode uses do seem to be of this nature a lot of the time, so I can sort of see the OPs point. Dave From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Thu Nov 11 15:51:26 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 10:51:26 -0500 Subject: "Professionalism" In-Reply-To: <20041111154958.GD22473@redhat.com> References: <20041111.065903.12238.134202@webmail32.nyc.untd.com> <20041111153440.GB23142@jadzia.bu.edu> <20041111154958.GD22473@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1100188286.3094.31.camel@binkley> On Thu, 2004-11-11 at 10:49 -0500, Dave Jones wrote: > On Thu, Nov 11, 2004 at 10:34:40AM -0500, Matthew Miller wrote: > > > I'm not sure what particular word has offended you in Barcode, but it's > > basically picking from a random dictionary. And, if you look at the source > > RPM, you'll find a patch which removes several words referring to parts of > > the human body some people find embarrassing. I looked at the remaining > > list, and am perplexed as to what you are offended by. "Gerbils", perhaps? > > At OLS last year (I think during Erik Troan's talk on conary), whilst > taking questions, barcode kicked in. On a ~10ft projector, with the > word 'flatulence'. > > Unfortunate and somewhat embarressing perhaps, but highly amusing. > > The choice of words barcode uses do seem to be of this nature a lot > of the time, so I can sort of see the OPs point. i can see the point of splitting up the xscreensaver package into more sets or making it easier to prohibit users from getting to certain ones, but I think at some point it just becomes silly censorship b/c some people are afraid of seeing a naughty bit or hearing a dirty word. I'm all for professionalism but I'm MORE for acting like an adult and realizing the world isn't all roses and tea. -sv From moreshwars at hotmail.com Thu Nov 11 17:30:25 2004 From: moreshwars at hotmail.com (Moreshwar Salpekar) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 23:00:25 +0530 Subject: Serial ATA Supprt Message-ID: Dear All, I am new to this group. I just got a PC with motherboard Intel 915GAV. It has two Serial ATA Hard disks one of 120GB with WinXP and other 80GB I want to use for Fedora. I want to know what core of Fedore I should go for. I got Fedora Core 1 but it is unable to detect my hard drives. Will Fedora Core 2 Help? I read somewhere that Linux Kernel 2.6.x supports Serial ATA but Fedora docs mention nowhere on Serial ATA support is it there in fedora? If not where do I get Serial ATA driver? I looked at Seagate site (both my hard drives are Seagate) but nothing there on Serial ATA driver for Linux? I want to install Fedora asap. Regards Moreshwar From kaspars at os.lv Thu Nov 11 17:15:58 2004 From: kaspars at os.lv (Kaspars) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:15:58 +0200 Subject: FC3 desktop can`t log out or reboot Message-ID: <41939E4E.2070105@os.lv> Hi all, I get FC3 DVD diska and installed fresh FC3 on my desktop wrk. I boot in GUI and log in. My problem is that I can`t log out or reboot or halt computer from GUI from desktop... i use defalt desktop what it use. I updated all but still problem how i see is not corrected(maybe it is only my pc problem). So what I do is in FC3(I think def. I use Gnome), I want to reboot pc and I go Action -> Log Out -> Chek "Restart the computer" and push Ok. and it hangs. The some is with "Log out" or "Shut down"... I need to go to console bu ctrl+alt+F1 and log in as root and command to reboot. How and where to fix it? And I only have satch problem? thanks all, Casper From dalive at flashmail.com Thu Nov 11 17:51:36 2004 From: dalive at flashmail.com (Arturo) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 17:51:36 +0000 Subject: Serial ATA Supprt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4193A6A8.405@flashmail.com> Moreshwar Salpekar wrote: >Dear All, >I am new to this group. I just got a PC with motherboard Intel 915GAV. It >has two Serial ATA Hard disks one of 120GB with WinXP and other 80GB I want >to use for Fedora. I want to know what core of Fedore I should go for. I got >Fedora Core 1 but it is unable to detect my hard drives. Will Fedora Core 2 >Help? >I read somewhere that Linux Kernel 2.6.x supports Serial ATA but Fedora docs >mention nowhere on Serial ATA support is it there in fedora? If not where do >I get Serial ATA driver? I looked at Seagate site (both my hard drives are >Seagate) but nothing there on Serial ATA driver for Linux? > >I want to install Fedora asap. > >Regards >Moreshwar > > > I am no guru. But I have an SATA HDD in my Linux server. And I built it from scratch (components) . My motherboard also has an SATA port, I installed FC2 without a hitch. I didn't try FC1 on that setup. BTW.....any reason why you're not installing FC3? Peace From kyrre at solution-forge.net Thu Nov 11 18:08:39 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:08:39 +0100 Subject: Professionalism In-Reply-To: <1100185711.3094.27.camel@binkley> References: <20041111.065903.12238.134202@webmail32.nyc.untd.com> <1100185711.3094.27.camel@binkley> Message-ID: <1100196519.2683.3.camel@kyrre> tor, 11.11.2004 kl. 16.08 skrev seth vidal: > On Thu, 2004-11-11 at 14:58 +0000, chapmanccc at juno.com wrote: > > To the developers, > > > > The Linux operating system is maturing and we all hope that it will be > > a major contender in the home and business markets. As it approaches > > this goal, the customer base changes. Linux is no longer the "geek > > OS" it once was. Where once the predominant profile of a Linux user > > was a young male, you now find fathers and husbands (I am both), women > > (I am married to one) and children (I have three). Linux is my main > > OS at home and my wife and oldest child also use it. > > > > With this evolution, a level of professionalism must also take place. > > Being that the Fedora project is one of the leading consumer Linux > > distributions, I would hope the developers would want to 'lead the > > pack' in this area. > > > > This brings me to my point. I was rather disappointed with the > > content in the "WebCollage" and "Barcode" screensavers. These > > screensavers have since been manually removed from my system, but I > > would have preferred them not to be installed by default. When I > > install Mac OS or Windows, garbage like this is not included. Why? > > Because the developers strive to build a professional product. Yes, I > > can install items like this with Mac OS or Windows, but I would need > > to download or purchase them after installing the OS. > > > > Developers, please be considerate when creating the Fedora > > distributions and let's strive to make Linux as professional as > > possible. > > I agree, We should have more professional behavior. And since most > professionals are adults and know that world is filled with all sorts of > things that _you_ may not like but that others may, I think we should > respect the differences between people and let adults choose what > behavior of their screensavers they want. Therefore, I recommend > screensaver preferences! In EVERY DESKTOP! The ability to choose a > screensaver must be included in the distribution to put a stop to this > anti-professional degradation. > > > oh.. wait.. they're already there. > > hmm. > > -sv > Yes they are. But imagine removing those on every damn user profile in... lets say a school. What really should be done, is split the screensaverpackage in three rpms (at least) - "xscreensaver-safe", "xcsreensaver-gl", and "xscreensaver-others". At least the two first should be installed by default. The reason to split it, is that the gl package can then be removed safely from systems where it is not wanted. Simply beckause they suck CPU, and on non-hw-3d deployments, you migth not want them. From freelance0 at gmail.com Thu Nov 11 18:20:30 2004 From: freelance0 at gmail.com (Alex Catullo) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:20:30 -0500 Subject: Serial ATA Supprt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6dc131f204111110201af49795@mail.gmail.com> Fedora core 2 and 3 should both detect SATA. If you still have trouble with it, in the BIOS menu, go to the "advanced" tab and look at the IDE configuration. By default, the IDE settings are set to "enhanced" Switch that to "legacy" and make sure SATA 0 and IDE pri and sec are active. On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 23:00:25 +0530, Moreshwar Salpekar wrote: > Dear All, > I am new to this group. I just got a PC with motherboard Intel 915GAV. It > has two Serial ATA Hard disks one of 120GB with WinXP and other 80GB I want > to use for Fedora. I want to know what core of Fedore I should go for. I got > Fedora Core 1 but it is unable to detect my hard drives. Will Fedora Core 2 > Help? > I read somewhere that Linux Kernel 2.6.x supports Serial ATA but Fedora docs > mention nowhere on Serial ATA support is it there in fedora? If not where do > I get Serial ATA driver? I looked at Seagate site (both my hard drives are > Seagate) but nothing there on Serial ATA driver for Linux? > > I want to install Fedora asap. > > Regards > Moreshwar > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > From jorris at redhat.com Thu Nov 11 18:31:16 2004 From: jorris at redhat.com (Jon Orris) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:31:16 -0500 Subject: FC3 desktop can`t log out or reboot In-Reply-To: <41939E4E.2070105@os.lv> References: <41939E4E.2070105@os.lv> Message-ID: <1100197876.3855.3.camel@web.checkm8.com> On Thu, 2004-11-11 at 19:15 +0200, Kaspars wrote: > Hi all, > > I get FC3 DVD diska and installed fresh FC3 on my desktop wrk. > I boot in GUI and log in. My problem is that I can`t log out or reboot > or halt computer from GUI from desktop... i use defalt desktop what it > use. I updated all but still problem how i see is not corrected(maybe it > is only my pc problem). > So what I do is in FC3(I think def. I use Gnome), I want to reboot pc > and I go Action -> Log Out -> Chek "Restart the computer" and push Ok. > and it hangs. The some is with "Log out" or "Shut down"... I need to go > to console bu ctrl+alt+F1 and log in as root and command to reboot. > How and where to fix it? And I only have satch problem? > > thanks all, >From your description, it sounds like this bug that I reported: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=134265 The current workaround is to disable DRI, at least on my machine. It may be helpful in tracking the root cause if you append your hardware & xconfig info to the bug report. -- Jon Orris Red Hat From mattdm at mattdm.org Thu Nov 11 18:35:56 2004 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:35:56 -0500 Subject: "Professionalism" In-Reply-To: <20041111154958.GD22473@redhat.com> References: <20041111.065903.12238.134202@webmail32.nyc.untd.com> <20041111153440.GB23142@jadzia.bu.edu> <20041111154958.GD22473@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20041111183556.GB30285@jadzia.bu.edu> On Thu, Nov 11, 2004 at 10:49:59AM -0500, Dave Jones wrote: > At OLS last year (I think during Erik Troan's talk on conary), whilst > taking questions, barcode kicked in. On a ~10ft projector, with the > word 'flatulence'. That's one of the words that's patched out, actually. Hmm; on looking, the "sanitize-hacks" patch wasn't in FC2; it's new to FC3. Perhaps right after the incident you mention. :) -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> From freelance0 at gmail.com Thu Nov 11 19:06:46 2004 From: freelance0 at gmail.com (Alex Catullo) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 14:06:46 -0500 Subject: Professionalism In-Reply-To: <1100196519.2683.3.camel@kyrre> References: <20041111.065903.12238.134202@webmail32.nyc.untd.com> <1100185711.3094.27.camel@binkley> <1100196519.2683.3.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: <6dc131f20411111106640f5e9f@mail.gmail.com> Professionalism in linux is definitely a nice thing, but if you want it, go out and get a copy of enterprise Linux. In Fedora, it's all about the bleeding edge technology and newest ideas from the community, and being "professional" limits that quite a bit. At least in fedora ther'es the freedom for the creative things like the "unprofessional" barcode and flying toasters screensavers. That's what it's all about, the freedom to add any ideas; and that's why Fedora isn't "professional" "I was rather disappointed with the content in the "WebCollage" and "Barcode" screensavers. These screensavers have since been manually removed from my system, but I would have preferred them not to be installed by default. When I install Mac OS or Windows, garbage like this is not included. Why?" Because this is Linux. Linux is meant to be that quirky OS that releives the boredom of stock operating systems like windows. If you want to be professional, use RHEL. But in Fedora, we strive to endorse new ideas, regardless of their "professionality" On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:08:39 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > tor, 11.11.2004 kl. 16.08 skrev seth vidal: > > > > On Thu, 2004-11-11 at 14:58 +0000, chapmanccc at juno.com wrote: > > > To the developers, > > > > > > The Linux operating system is maturing and we all hope that it will be > > > a major contender in the home and business markets. As it approaches > > > this goal, the customer base changes. Linux is no longer the "geek > > > OS" it once was. Where once the predominant profile of a Linux user > > > was a young male, you now find fathers and husbands (I am both), women > > > (I am married to one) and children (I have three). Linux is my main > > > OS at home and my wife and oldest child also use it. > > > > > > With this evolution, a level of professionalism must also take place. > > > Being that the Fedora project is one of the leading consumer Linux > > > distributions, I would hope the developers would want to 'lead the > > > pack' in this area. > > > > > > This brings me to my point. I was rather disappointed with the > > > content in the "WebCollage" and "Barcode" screensavers. These > > > screensavers have since been manually removed from my system, but I > > > would have preferred them not to be installed by default. When I > > > install Mac OS or Windows, garbage like this is not included. Why? > > > Because the developers strive to build a professional product. Yes, I > > > can install items like this with Mac OS or Windows, but I would need > > > to download or purchase them after installing the OS. > > > > > > Developers, please be considerate when creating the Fedora > > > distributions and let's strive to make Linux as professional as > > > possible. > > > > I agree, We should have more professional behavior. And since most > > professionals are adults and know that world is filled with all sorts of > > things that _you_ may not like but that others may, I think we should > > respect the differences between people and let adults choose what > > behavior of their screensavers they want. Therefore, I recommend > > screensaver preferences! In EVERY DESKTOP! The ability to choose a > > screensaver must be included in the distribution to put a stop to this > > anti-professional degradation. > > > > > > oh.. wait.. they're already there. > > > > hmm. > > > > -sv > > > > Yes they are. But imagine removing those on every damn user profile > in... lets say a school. > > What really should be done, is split the screensaverpackage in three > rpms (at least) - "xscreensaver-safe", "xcsreensaver-gl", and > "xscreensaver-others". At least the two first should be installed by > default. The reason to split it, is that the gl package can then be > removed safely from systems where it is not wanted. Simply beckause they > suck CPU, and on non-hw-3d deployments, you migth not want them. > > > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > From jason at cassiopaea.com Thu Nov 11 21:31:27 2004 From: jason at cassiopaea.com (Jason Knight) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 16:31:27 -0500 Subject: Professionalism In-Reply-To: <6dc131f20411111106640f5e9f@mail.gmail.com> References: <20041111.065903.12238.134202@webmail32.nyc.untd.com> <1100185711.3094.27.camel@binkley> <1100196519.2683.3.camel@kyrre> <6dc131f20411111106640f5e9f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4193DA2F.5090409@cassiopaea.com> I understand both sides of the coin but I agree with Alex. Also; [And since most professionals are adults and know that world is filled with all sorts of things that _you_ may not like but that others may[...]] This works both ways, Fedora is a project meant to encourage creativity and contribution. It makes no claims to being "The Safest Linux for Your Kids!", "Squeamish? Worry not dear fellow, we strive daily to insure that you and your family are completely insolated from the peckidillos and quirks of others!" "We either accept all freedom for all people, or we accept no freedom for anyone. The happy medium is an illusion." Of course, Fedora is RH's project, and it is steered by a committee, so we must abide by their decsions, but I don't see even mildly-moderately offensive screensavers being a huge issue in an Open Source, community driven project where creative innovation is desired. Let's try to keep a light heart! -ishikawa Alex Catullo wrote: >Professionalism in linux is definitely a nice thing, but if you want >it, go out and get a copy of enterprise Linux. In Fedora, it's all >about the bleeding edge technology and newest ideas from the >community, and being "professional" limits that quite a bit. At least >in fedora ther'es the freedom for the creative things like the >"unprofessional" barcode and flying toasters screensavers. That's what >it's all about, the freedom to add any ideas; and that's why Fedora >isn't "professional" > > "I was rather disappointed with the content in the "WebCollage" and >"Barcode" screensavers. These screensavers have since been manually >removed from my system, but I would have preferred them not to be >installed by default. When I install Mac OS or Windows, garbage like >this is not included. Why?" > >Because this is Linux. Linux is meant to be that quirky OS that >releives the boredom of stock operating systems like windows. If you >want to be professional, use RHEL. But in Fedora, we strive to endorse >new ideas, regardless of their "professionality" > >On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:08:39 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak > wrote: > > From alt.wally at mousemeadows.com Thu Nov 11 22:28:51 2004 From: alt.wally at mousemeadows.com (Wally Wilson) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 14:28:51 -0800 Subject: "Professinalism" syntax Message-ID: <1100212131.2230.10.camel@Laptron4020.attbi.com> To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop On Thu, 2004-11-11 at 10:49 -0500, Dave Jones wrote: > On Thu, Nov 11, 2004 at 10:34:40AM -0500, Matthew Miller wrote: > > At OLS last year (I think during Erik Troan's talk on conary), whilst > taking questions, barcode kicked in. On a ~10ft projector, with the > word 'flatulence'. > > Unfortunate and somewhat embarressing perhaps, but highly amusing. > > The choice of words barcode uses do seem to be of this nature a lot > of the time, so I can sort of see the OPs point. I'm all for professionalism but I'm MORE for acting like an adult and realizing the world isn't all roses and tea. -sv -------------------------------- The real issue -- the issue that the original author failed to address -- is not about "professionalism" at all. The real issue is about personal mores and taste. Words mean things, and the Fedora package is every bit as "professional" as any other Linux distro. If someone does not like, or want something as simple as a screen saver, for whatever reasons, it is their choice and their responsibility to address the matter on each machine they administer. The same argument could be made for including games in the distro when it is used in a work environment that does not allow games. The responsibility for administering a system lies with the owner, not the software manufacturer. MS has made good money trying to remove the responsibility of system admin from its userbase, and that is not how the real world works. -wally From dalive at flashmail.com Fri Nov 12 00:06:40 2004 From: dalive at flashmail.com (Arturo) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 00:06:40 +0000 Subject: Professionalism In-Reply-To: <1100196519.2683.3.camel@kyrre> References: <20041111.065903.12238.134202@webmail32.nyc.untd.com> <1100185711.3094.27.camel@binkley> <1100196519.2683.3.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: <4193FE90.3090402@flashmail.com> Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: >tor, 11.11.2004 kl. 16.08 skrev seth vidal: > > >>On Thu, 2004-11-11 at 14:58 +0000, chapmanccc at juno.com wrote: >> >> >>>To the developers, >>> >>>The Linux operating system is maturing and we all hope that it will be >>>a major contender in the home and business markets. As it approaches >>>this goal, the customer base changes. Linux is no longer the "geek >>>OS" it once was. Where once the predominant profile of a Linux user >>>was a young male, you now find fathers and husbands (I am both), women >>>(I am married to one) and children (I have three). Linux is my main >>>OS at home and my wife and oldest child also use it. >>> >>>With this evolution, a level of professionalism must also take place. >>>Being that the Fedora project is one of the leading consumer Linux >>>distributions, I would hope the developers would want to 'lead the >>>pack' in this area. >>> >>>This brings me to my point. I was rather disappointed with the >>>content in the "WebCollage" and "Barcode" screensavers. These >>>screensavers have since been manually removed from my system, but I >>>would have preferred them not to be installed by default. When I >>>install Mac OS or Windows, garbage like this is not included. Why? >>>Because the developers strive to build a professional product. Yes, I >>>can install items like this with Mac OS or Windows, but I would need >>>to download or purchase them after installing the OS. >>> >>>Developers, please be considerate when creating the Fedora >>>distributions and let's strive to make Linux as professional as >>>possible. >>> >>> >>I agree, We should have more professional behavior. And since most >>professionals are adults and know that world is filled with all sorts of >>things that _you_ may not like but that others may, I think we should >>respect the differences between people and let adults choose what >>behavior of their screensavers they want. Therefore, I recommend >>screensaver preferences! In EVERY DESKTOP! The ability to choose a >>screensaver must be included in the distribution to put a stop to this >>anti-professional degradation. >> >> >>oh.. wait.. they're already there. >> >>hmm. >> >>-sv >> >> >> > >Yes they are. But imagine removing those on every damn user profile >in... lets say a school. > >What really should be done, is split the screensaverpackage in three >rpms (at least) - "xscreensaver-safe", "xcsreensaver-gl", and >"xscreensaver-others". At least the two first should be installed by >default. The reason to split it, is that the gl package can then be >removed safely from systems where it is not wanted. Simply beckause they >suck CPU, and on non-hw-3d deployments, you migth not want them. > > > This is the most constructive suggestion I've seen on the list so far in response to this issue, and so I second it.. I am however, somwhat curious as to what offensive words popped-up in Barcode. Peace From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Fri Nov 12 00:21:50 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:21:50 -0500 Subject: "Professinalism" syntax In-Reply-To: <1100212131.2230.10.camel@Laptron4020.attbi.com> References: <1100212131.2230.10.camel@Laptron4020.attbi.com> Message-ID: <1100218910.6926.10.camel@binkley> > > Words mean things, and the Fedora package is every bit as "professional" > as any other Linux distro. actually, it's not, it is explicitly a hobbyist distro. see the website. -sv From mattdm at mattdm.org Fri Nov 12 00:31:45 2004 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:31:45 -0500 Subject: Professionalism In-Reply-To: <4193FE90.3090402@flashmail.com> References: <20041111.065903.12238.134202@webmail32.nyc.untd.com> <1100185711.3094.27.camel@binkley> <1100196519.2683.3.camel@kyrre> <4193FE90.3090402@flashmail.com> Message-ID: <20041112003145.GA9755@jadzia.bu.edu> On Fri, Nov 12, 2004 at 12:06:40AM +0000, Arturo wrote: > This is the most constructive suggestion I've seen on the list so far in > response to this issue, and so I second it.. I am however, somwhat > curious as to what offensive words popped-up in Barcode. Here's the list from FC3 (take that, Bayesian filters...): abdomen abeyance abhorrence abrasion abstraction acid addiction alertness Algeria anxiety aorta argyle socks attrition axis of evil bamboo bangle bankruptcy baptism beer bellicosity bells belly bliss bogosity booty bread bubba burrito California capybara cardinality caribou carnage children chocolate CLONE constriction contrition cop corpse cowboy crabapple craziness cthulhu Death decepticon deception Decker decoder decoy defenestration democracy dependency despair desperation disease disease doberman DOOM dreams dreams drugs easy ebony election eloquence emergency eureka excommunication fat fatherland Faust fear fever filth fluff fnord freedom fruit fruit futility gerbils GOD goggles goobers gorilla halibut handmaid happiness hate helplessness hermaphrodite heroine hope hysteria icepick identity ignorance importance individuality inkling insurrection intoxicant ire irritant jade jaundice Joyce kidney stone kitchenette kiwi lathe lattice lawyer lemming liquidation lobbyist love lozenge magazine magnesium malfunction marmot marshmallow merit merkin mescaline milk mischief mistrust money monkey monkeybutter nationalism nature neuron noise nomenclature nutria OBEY ocelot offspring overseer pain pajamas passenger passion Passover peace penance persimmon petticoat pharmacist PhD pitchfork plague Poindexter politician pony presidency prison prophecy Prozac punishment punk rock punk quagmire quarantine quartz rabies radish rage readout reality reject rejection respect revolution roadrunner rule savor scab scalar Scandinavia schadenfreude security sediment self worth sickness silicone slack slander slavery sledgehammer smegma smelly socks sorrow space program stamen standardization stench subculture subversion suffering surrender surveillance synthesis television tenant tendril terror terrorism terrorist the impossible the unknown toast topography truism turgid underbrush underling unguent unusual uplink urge valor variance vaudeville vector vegetarian venom verifiability victim vignette villainy W.A.S.T.E. wagon waiver warehouse waste waveform whiffle ball whorl windmill words worm worship worship Xanax Xerxes Xhosa xylophone yellow yesterday your nose Zanzibar zeal zebra zest zinc -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> From davej at redhat.com Fri Nov 12 00:38:33 2004 From: davej at redhat.com (Dave Jones) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:38:33 -0500 Subject: Professionalism In-Reply-To: <20041112003145.GA9755@jadzia.bu.edu> References: <20041111.065903.12238.134202@webmail32.nyc.untd.com> <1100185711.3094.27.camel@binkley> <1100196519.2683.3.camel@kyrre> <4193FE90.3090402@flashmail.com> <20041112003145.GA9755@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: <20041112003833.GB5988@redhat.com> On Thu, Nov 11, 2004 at 07:31:45PM -0500, Matthew Miller wrote: > On Fri, Nov 12, 2004 at 12:06:40AM +0000, Arturo wrote: > > This is the most constructive suggestion I've seen on the list so far in > > response to this issue, and so I second it.. I am however, somwhat > > curious as to what offensive words popped-up in Barcode. > > Here's the list from FC3 (take that, Bayesian filters...): It's certainly an insight into that developers head 8-) Monkeybutter indeed.. *shakes head* Dave From dalive at flashmail.com Fri Nov 12 00:51:47 2004 From: dalive at flashmail.com (Arturo) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 00:51:47 +0000 Subject: Professionalism In-Reply-To: <20041112003833.GB5988@redhat.com> References: <20041111.065903.12238.134202@webmail32.nyc.untd.com> <1100185711.3094.27.camel@binkley> <1100196519.2683.3.camel@kyrre> <4193FE90.3090402@flashmail.com> <20041112003145.GA9755@jadzia.bu.edu> <20041112003833.GB5988@redhat.com> Message-ID: <41940923.60902@flashmail.com> Dave Jones wrote: >On Thu, Nov 11, 2004 at 07:31:45PM -0500, Matthew Miller wrote: > > On Fri, Nov 12, 2004 at 12:06:40AM +0000, Arturo wrote: > > > This is the most constructive suggestion I've seen on the list so far in > > > response to this issue, and so I second it.. I am however, somwhat > > > curious as to what offensive words popped-up in Barcode. > > > > Here's the list from FC3 (take that, Bayesian filters...): > >It's certainly an insight into that developers head 8-) > > And what have you learnt, pray tell >Monkeybutter indeed.. *shakes head* > > Dave > > > From douglas.furlong at firebox.com Fri Nov 12 09:55:44 2004 From: douglas.furlong at firebox.com (Douglas Furlong) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 09:55:44 +0000 Subject: Professionalism In-Reply-To: <41940923.60902@flashmail.com> References: <20041111.065903.12238.134202@webmail32.nyc.untd.com> <1100185711.3094.27.camel@binkley> <1100196519.2683.3.camel@kyrre> <4193FE90.3090402@flashmail.com> <20041112003145.GA9755@jadzia.bu.edu> <20041112003833.GB5988@redhat.com> <41940923.60902@flashmail.com> Message-ID: <1100253344.3313.95.camel@douglas-furlong.firebox.com> On Fri, 2004-11-12 at 00:51 +0000, Arturo wrote: > Dave Jones wrote: > > >On Thu, Nov 11, 2004 at 07:31:45PM -0500, Matthew Miller wrote: > > > On Fri, Nov 12, 2004 at 12:06:40AM +0000, Arturo wrote: > > > > This is the most constructive suggestion I've seen on the list so far in > > > > response to this issue, and so I second it.. I am however, somwhat > > > > curious as to what offensive words popped-up in Barcode. > > > > > > Here's the list from FC3 (take that, Bayesian filters...): > > > >It's certainly an insight into that developers head 8-) > > > > > And what have you learnt, pray tell > If nothing else it has kept me highly ammused. However, I am not entirely sure how "Abdomen" is an offencive word, or unprofessional for that matter :) -- Douglas Furlong Systems Administrator Firebox.com T: 0870 420 4475 F: 0870 220 2178 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From nphilipp at redhat.com Fri Nov 12 10:46:19 2004 From: nphilipp at redhat.com (Nils Philippsen) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:46:19 +0100 Subject: "Professinalism" syntax In-Reply-To: <1100218910.6926.10.camel@binkley> References: <1100212131.2230.10.camel@Laptron4020.attbi.com> <1100218910.6926.10.camel@binkley> Message-ID: <1100256380.4165.8.camel@gibraltar.stuttgart.redhat.com> On Thu, 2004-11-11 at 19:21 -0500, seth vidal wrote: > > > > Words mean things, and the Fedora package is every bit as "professional" > > as any other Linux distro. > > > actually, it's not, it is explicitly a hobbyist distro. I take the opportunity to coin the term "professional hobbyist(tm)", put whatever meaning you like into it ;-). I thought he referred to quality when he said "professional", not audience. Nils -- Nils Philippsen / Red Hat / nphilipp at redhat.com "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- B. Franklin, 1759 PGP fingerprint: C4A8 9474 5C4C ADE3 2B8F 656D 47D8 9B65 6951 3011 From alt.wally at mousemeadows.com Fri Nov 12 14:12:45 2004 From: alt.wally at mousemeadows.com (Wally Wilson) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 06:12:45 -0800 Subject: "Professionalism" syntax Message-ID: <1100268764.2223.8.camel@Laptron4020.attbi.com> > Words mean things, and the Fedora package is every bit as > "professional" as any other Linux distro. -ww actually, it's not, it is explicitly a hobbyist distro. see the website. -sv -------------------- My point, exactly. You purchase Mandrake, Xandros, or SuSe. You download Fedora Core, Debian, Slackware, etc. "Professionals" get paid and do what they do for a living. The best idea so far, is to divide the screensavers into three packages. -wally From mattdm at mattdm.org Fri Nov 12 14:30:59 2004 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 09:30:59 -0500 Subject: "Professionalism" syntax In-Reply-To: <1100268764.2223.8.camel@Laptron4020.attbi.com> References: <1100268764.2223.8.camel@Laptron4020.attbi.com> Message-ID: <20041112143059.GA1632@jadzia.bu.edu> On Fri, Nov 12, 2004 at 06:12:45AM -0800, Wally Wilson wrote: > The best idea so far, is to divide the screensavers into three packages. Honestly, I don't see any point in the "third" package. The FC3 "sanitize" really ought to be plenty. And I see no compelling reason to put those things _back_ -- if you really need screensavers that sometimes say "penis" or "boobies", rebuild the package. -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Fri Nov 12 14:32:11 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 09:32:11 -0500 Subject: "Professionalism" syntax In-Reply-To: <20041112143059.GA1632@jadzia.bu.edu> References: <1100268764.2223.8.camel@Laptron4020.attbi.com> <20041112143059.GA1632@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: <1100269931.6926.43.camel@binkley> On Fri, 2004-11-12 at 09:30 -0500, Matthew Miller wrote: > On Fri, Nov 12, 2004 at 06:12:45AM -0800, Wally Wilson wrote: > > The best idea so far, is to divide the screensavers into three packages. > > Honestly, I don't see any point in the "third" package. The FC3 "sanitize" > really ought to be plenty. And I see no compelling reason to put those > things _back_ -- if you really need screensavers that sometimes say "penis" > or "boobies", rebuild the package. > What about when the crazies continue to take their toll? Should the word 'breast' be removed? How about 'atheist'? Is 'liberal' a dirty word, too? No. Don't censor yourself b/c some people are too afraid to deal with a little discomfort. Let them rebuild the package if they want to remove something _they_ think is offensive. this is ridiculous. -sv From tdiehl at rogueind.com Fri Nov 12 15:02:56 2004 From: tdiehl at rogueind.com (Tom Diehl) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:02:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: "Professionalism" syntax In-Reply-To: <1100269931.6926.43.camel@binkley> References: <1100268764.2223.8.camel@Laptron4020.attbi.com> <20041112143059.GA1632@jadzia.bu.edu> <1100269931.6926.43.camel@binkley> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Nov 2004, seth vidal wrote: > On Fri, 2004-11-12 at 09:30 -0500, Matthew Miller wrote: > > On Fri, Nov 12, 2004 at 06:12:45AM -0800, Wally Wilson wrote: > > > The best idea so far, is to divide the screensavers into three packages. > > > > Honestly, I don't see any point in the "third" package. The FC3 "sanitize" > > really ought to be plenty. And I see no compelling reason to put those > > things _back_ -- if you really need screensavers that sometimes say "penis" > > or "boobies", rebuild the package. > > > > What about when the crazies continue to take their toll? > > Should the word 'breast' be removed? How about 'atheist'? Is 'liberal' a > dirty word, too? > > No. Don't censor yourself b/c some people are too afraid to deal with a > little discomfort. Let them rebuild the package if they want to remove > something _they_ think is offensive. > > this is ridiculous. +1 Maybe we should just remove all of the words from everywhere so we can be sure never to offend anyone. :-) FWIW, I seem to remember a thread, where in some non-english speaking country the word Fedora was offensive. Where does this kind of stuff stop? OTOH, I suppose worthless threads like these are a good sign things are working pretty much as expected, otherwise there would not be time to debate this kind of stuff. :-) Regards, Tom From mattdm at mattdm.org Fri Nov 12 15:28:38 2004 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:28:38 -0500 Subject: "Professionalism" syntax In-Reply-To: <1100269931.6926.43.camel@binkley> References: <1100268764.2223.8.camel@Laptron4020.attbi.com> <20041112143059.GA1632@jadzia.bu.edu> <1100269931.6926.43.camel@binkley> Message-ID: <20041112152838.GA3189@jadzia.bu.edu> On Fri, Nov 12, 2004 at 09:32:11AM -0500, seth vidal wrote: > Should the word 'breast' be removed? How about 'atheist'? Is 'liberal' a > dirty word, too? This is a slippery-slope argument. I think a reasonable determination of "words likely to embarrass Eric Troan when shown on the big screen at OLS" can be made. :) > No. Don't censor yourself b/c some people are too afraid to deal with a > little discomfort. Let them rebuild the package if they want to remove > something _they_ think is offensive. So you think the current patch should be backed out? Hmmm. Maybe the screensaver should be patched to use /usr/share/dict/words instead of its own little idiosyncratic list. -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> From kyrre at solution-forge.net Fri Nov 12 15:33:44 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 16:33:44 +0100 Subject: "Professionalism" syntax In-Reply-To: <1100269931.6926.43.camel@binkley> References: <1100268764.2223.8.camel@Laptron4020.attbi.com> <20041112143059.GA1632@jadzia.bu.edu> <1100269931.6926.43.camel@binkley> Message-ID: <1100273623.2691.3.camel@kyrre> fre, 12.11.2004 kl. 15.32 skrev seth vidal: > On Fri, 2004-11-12 at 09:30 -0500, Matthew Miller wrote: > > On Fri, Nov 12, 2004 at 06:12:45AM -0800, Wally Wilson wrote: > > > The best idea so far, is to divide the screensavers into three packages. > > > > Honestly, I don't see any point in the "third" package. The FC3 "sanitize" > > really ought to be plenty. And I see no compelling reason to put those > > things _back_ -- if you really need screensavers that sometimes say "penis" > > or "boobies", rebuild the package. > > > > What about when the crazies continue to take their toll? > > Should the word 'breast' be removed? How about 'atheist'? Is 'liberal' a > dirty word, too? > > No. Don't censor yourself b/c some people are too afraid to deal with a > little discomfort. Let them rebuild the package if they want to remove > something _they_ think is offensive. > > this is ridiculous. > > -sv I understand your point (and i have no problems with it *myself*), but if my manager came to me complaining about "hey! That new Linux-thingy, you installed, it popped up "penis" on my projector, while i was presenting our might-be new customers a new product!" and i never even had thought of the posibility - i would have been bloody damn embarassed and angry. Kyrre Ness Sj?b?k Atheist, liberal, and socialist. From kyrre at solution-forge.net Fri Nov 12 15:40:18 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 16:40:18 +0100 Subject: Professionalism In-Reply-To: <4193FE90.3090402@flashmail.com> References: <20041111.065903.12238.134202@webmail32.nyc.untd.com> <1100185711.3094.27.camel@binkley> <1100196519.2683.3.camel@kyrre> <4193FE90.3090402@flashmail.com> Message-ID: <1100274018.2691.7.camel@kyrre> fre, 12.11.2004 kl. 01.06 skrev Arturo: > Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > > >tor, 11.11.2004 kl. 16.08 skrev seth vidal: > > > > > >>On Thu, 2004-11-11 at 14:58 +0000, chapmanccc at juno.com wrote: > >> > >> > >>>To the developers, > >>> > >>>The Linux operating system is maturing and we all hope that it will be > >>>a major contender in the home and business markets. As it approaches > >>>this goal, the customer base changes. Linux is no longer the "geek > >>>OS" it once was. Where once the predominant profile of a Linux user > >>>was a young male, you now find fathers and husbands (I am both), women > >>>(I am married to one) and children (I have three). Linux is my main > >>>OS at home and my wife and oldest child also use it. > >>> > >>>With this evolution, a level of professionalism must also take place. > >>>Being that the Fedora project is one of the leading consumer Linux > >>>distributions, I would hope the developers would want to 'lead the > >>>pack' in this area. > >>> > >>>This brings me to my point. I was rather disappointed with the > >>>content in the "WebCollage" and "Barcode" screensavers. These > >>>screensavers have since been manually removed from my system, but I > >>>would have preferred them not to be installed by default. When I > >>>install Mac OS or Windows, garbage like this is not included. Why? > >>>Because the developers strive to build a professional product. Yes, I > >>>can install items like this with Mac OS or Windows, but I would need > >>>to download or purchase them after installing the OS. > >>> > >>>Developers, please be considerate when creating the Fedora > >>>distributions and let's strive to make Linux as professional as > >>>possible. > >>> > >>> > >>I agree, We should have more professional behavior. And since most > >>professionals are adults and know that world is filled with all sorts of > >>things that _you_ may not like but that others may, I think we should > >>respect the differences between people and let adults choose what > >>behavior of their screensavers they want. Therefore, I recommend > >>screensaver preferences! In EVERY DESKTOP! The ability to choose a > >>screensaver must be included in the distribution to put a stop to this > >>anti-professional degradation. > >> > >> > >>oh.. wait.. they're already there. > >> > >>hmm. > >> > >>-sv > >> > >> > >> > > > >Yes they are. But imagine removing those on every damn user profile > >in... lets say a school. > > > >What really should be done, is split the screensaverpackage in three > >rpms (at least) - "xscreensaver-safe", "xcsreensaver-gl", and > >"xscreensaver-others". At least the two first should be installed by > >default. The reason to split it, is that the gl package can then be > >removed safely from systems where it is not wanted. Simply beckause they > >suck CPU, and on non-hw-3d deployments, you migth not want them. > > > > > > > This is the most constructive suggestion I've seen on the list so far in > response to this issue, and so I second it.. I am however, somwhat > curious as to what offensive words popped-up in Barcode. > > Peace Thank you. Splitting it up should really be best for all parties - so that if you want it, you can install the rpm (from yum, even). If you dont, remove it, and youll never have an update putting it back behind your back. Same goes to the GL and other cpu-hogs - on a LTSP server, i would *very much indeed* like to kill off those - through the package system... From aaron.bennett at olin.edu Fri Nov 12 15:43:51 2004 From: aaron.bennett at olin.edu (Aaron Bennett) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:43:51 -0500 Subject: "Professionalism" syntax In-Reply-To: <20041112152838.GA3189@jadzia.bu.edu> References: <1100268764.2223.8.camel@Laptron4020.attbi.com> <20041112143059.GA1632@jadzia.bu.edu> <1100269931.6926.43.camel@binkley> <20041112152838.GA3189@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: <4194DA37.2020802@olin.edu> Matthew Miller wrote: > > >Maybe the screensaver should be patched to use /usr/share/dict/words instead >of its own little idiosyncratic list. > > > > > /usr/share/dict/works contains the following unprofessional words: erection atheism sex sexed sexes sexual sexuality screw breast fornication etc etc... what we actually need is a "Department of Fedora Professionalism" board that could censor^H^H^H^H^H^H review all words contained anywhere in the distribution to avoid offending anyone... either that or people could grow up. :-) From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Fri Nov 12 15:45:22 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:45:22 -0500 Subject: "Professionalism" syntax In-Reply-To: <1100273623.2691.3.camel@kyrre> References: <1100268764.2223.8.camel@Laptron4020.attbi.com> <20041112143059.GA1632@jadzia.bu.edu> <1100269931.6926.43.camel@binkley> <1100273623.2691.3.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: <1100274322.9554.10.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> > I understand your point (and i have no problems with it *myself*), but > if my manager came to me complaining about "hey! That new Linux-thingy, > you installed, it popped up "penis" on my projector, while i was > presenting our might-be new customers a new product!" and i never even > had thought of the posibility - i would have been bloody damn embarassed > and angry. > So you're kowtowing to a purely hypothetical, corporate, prurient interest? I don't want a distribution I work on censored b/c someone is afraid their screensaver might offend a customer. If people are concerned about 'decency' in certain packages then let them add a distribution-nanny package that cleans these things up. yum install frightened_of_naughty_words.noarch -sv From douglas.furlong at firebox.com Fri Nov 12 15:47:44 2004 From: douglas.furlong at firebox.com (Douglas Furlong) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 15:47:44 +0000 Subject: "Professionalism" syntax In-Reply-To: <4194DA37.2020802@olin.edu> References: <1100268764.2223.8.camel@Laptron4020.attbi.com> <20041112143059.GA1632@jadzia.bu.edu> <1100269931.6926.43.camel@binkley> <20041112152838.GA3189@jadzia.bu.edu> <4194DA37.2020802@olin.edu> Message-ID: <1100274464.3313.121.camel@douglas-furlong.firebox.com> On Fri, 2004-11-12 at 10:43 -0500, Aaron Bennett wrote: > Matthew Miller wrote: > > > > > > >Maybe the screensaver should be patched to use /usr/share/dict/words instead > >of its own little idiosyncratic list. > > > > > > > > > > > /usr/share/dict/works contains the following unprofessional words: > > erection > atheism > sex > sexed > sexes > sexual > sexuality > screw What is wrong with a screw? I am fairly certain builds are screwing things all the time, be it would, metal, I suppose they use bolts more then screws on cement... How is a screw in any way a dirty word? Oh!!! You had sex on the mind? Is that our fault? > breast > fornication > > etc etc... > > what we actually need is a "Department of Fedora Professionalism" board > that could censor^H^H^H^H^H^H review all words contained anywhere in the > distribution to avoid offending anyone... > > either that or people could grow up. :-) Oh thank god for that... This just gets silly, you know? -- Douglas Furlong Systems Administrator Firebox.com T: 0870 420 4475 F: 0870 220 2178 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Fri Nov 12 16:00:02 2004 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 18:00:02 +0200 Subject: "Professionalism" syntax In-Reply-To: <1100273623.2691.3.camel@kyrre> References: <1100268764.2223.8.camel@Laptron4020.attbi.com> <20041112143059.GA1632@jadzia.bu.edu> <1100269931.6926.43.camel@binkley> <1100273623.2691.3.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: <4194DE02.8060608@nicubunu.ro> Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > I understand your point (and i have no problems with it *myself*), but > if my manager came to me complaining about "hey! That new Linux-thingy, > you installed, it popped up "penis" on my projector, while i was > presenting our might-be new customers a new product!" and i never even > had thought of the posibility - i would have been bloody damn embarassed > and angry. i haven't payed attention at install time and replaced with something, but what is the _default_ screen saver? if is a simple one, this is a non-issue. it may be a random one, and we can solve the "problem" just by making a good default. if an user want to change a inoffensive screensaver into a offensive one, we can't really stop it: for example the user can select something like GLText and put whatever he want in there. -- nicu my personal Fedora artwork: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/artwork Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Fri Nov 12 15:55:37 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:55:37 -0500 Subject: "Professionalism" syntax In-Reply-To: <20041112152838.GA3189@jadzia.bu.edu> References: <1100268764.2223.8.camel@Laptron4020.attbi.com> <20041112143059.GA1632@jadzia.bu.edu> <1100269931.6926.43.camel@binkley> <20041112152838.GA3189@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: <1100274937.9554.21.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> On Fri, 2004-11-12 at 10:28, Matthew Miller wrote: > On Fri, Nov 12, 2004 at 09:32:11AM -0500, seth vidal wrote: > > Should the word 'breast' be removed? How about 'atheist'? Is 'liberal' a > > dirty word, too? > > This is a slippery-slope argument. I think a reasonable determination of > "words likely to embarrass Eric Troan when shown on the big screen at OLS" > can be made. :) Guess what, I bet everyone there thought it was funny and silly. But not offensive. Eric obviously wasn't too worried about it. -sv From mattdm at mattdm.org Fri Nov 12 16:48:11 2004 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:48:11 -0500 Subject: "Professionalism" syntax In-Reply-To: <4194DA37.2020802@olin.edu> References: <1100268764.2223.8.camel@Laptron4020.attbi.com> <20041112143059.GA1632@jadzia.bu.edu> <1100269931.6926.43.camel@binkley> <20041112152838.GA3189@jadzia.bu.edu> <4194DA37.2020802@olin.edu> Message-ID: <20041112164811.GA6269@jadzia.bu.edu> On Fri, Nov 12, 2004 at 10:43:51AM -0500, Aaron Bennett wrote: > /usr/share/dict/works contains the following unprofessional words: Yep. But it's a big dictionary of common words, not a picked list. And let's be realistic -- the existing list appears hand-picked to contain controversial terms. I personally find it amusing, but I understand why others don't. I also think that the line drawn by the existing 'sanitize' patch is reasonable. -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> From mattdm at mattdm.org Fri Nov 12 16:50:15 2004 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:50:15 -0500 Subject: "Professionalism" syntax In-Reply-To: <1100274937.9554.21.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> References: <1100268764.2223.8.camel@Laptron4020.attbi.com> <20041112143059.GA1632@jadzia.bu.edu> <1100269931.6926.43.camel@binkley> <20041112152838.GA3189@jadzia.bu.edu> <1100274937.9554.21.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> Message-ID: <20041112165015.GB6269@jadzia.bu.edu> On Fri, Nov 12, 2004 at 10:55:37AM -0500, seth vidal wrote: > > This is a slippery-slope argument. I think a reasonable determination of > > "words likely to embarrass Eric Troan when shown on the big screen at OLS" > > can be made. :) > Guess what, I bet everyone there thought it was funny and silly. But not > offensive. Eric obviously wasn't too worried about it. I know. I hope you don't think I'm taking this too seriously. But clearly, it's reasonable for there to be a line somewhere -- a "standard", if you will. Would you argue so strongly if the original list contained, say, "fuck"? -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> From p.vandenberg at personainternet.com Fri Nov 12 16:59:41 2004 From: p.vandenberg at personainternet.com (Paul Vandenberg) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:59:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: Bluecurve and KDE Message-ID: <15619.192.26.212.72.1100278781.squirrel@webmail.personainternet.com> Hi, I have noticed that the Bluecurve theme in KDE is never complete. The completeness varies from release to release, with FC1 being the closest to complete and now FC3 being one of the worst. Some examples are: I added the Home icon to the panel from the menu. In the menu it was a Bluecurve home icon. Once added to the panel, it turned into a Crystal icon. If you launch Konqueror as file manager, the folder icons are all Bluecurve in the main section. In the tree section on the left, they are Crystal. If I then select medium icons, the Bluecurve ones in the main part are changed into smaller Cystal icons. I really like Bluecurve, but I must say the mix of Bluecurve and Crystal icons is really terrible looking. Red Hat's philosophy has always been to remove functionality rather than ship broken functionality. I certainly think this applies here. I understand that resources are limited, so why not just remove Bluecurve altogether from KDE? Fedora is a GNOME based distro. As long as Bluecurve is in GNOME, that should be good enough. Thanks for listening. Paul From kyrre at solution-forge.net Fri Nov 12 18:12:20 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 19:12:20 +0100 Subject: "Professionalism" syntax In-Reply-To: <4194DE02.8060608@nicubunu.ro> References: <1100268764.2223.8.camel@Laptron4020.attbi.com> <20041112143059.GA1632@jadzia.bu.edu> <1100269931.6926.43.camel@binkley> <1100273623.2691.3.camel@kyrre> <4194DE02.8060608@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <1100283140.4132.11.camel@kyrre> > if an user want to change a inoffensive screensaver into a offensive > one, we can't really stop it: for example the user can select something > like GLText and put whatever he want in there. Exept GL(Text) isn't really good for anything but machines with HW accellerated GL - which in many cases means properitary drivers... From jason at cassiopaea.com Fri Nov 12 18:29:27 2004 From: jason at cassiopaea.com (Jason Knight) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 19:29:27 +0100 Subject: "Professionalism" syntax In-Reply-To: <20041112164811.GA6269@jadzia.bu.edu> References: <1100268764.2223.8.camel@Laptron4020.attbi.com> <20041112143059.GA1632@jadzia.bu.edu> <1100269931.6926.43.camel@binkley> <20041112152838.GA3189@jadzia.bu.edu> <4194DA37.2020802@olin.edu> <20041112164811.GA6269@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: <41950107.6050300@cassiopaea.com> This has really gone on a long time, My absolute last recommendation on this topic is: The effort, however small, to address this "issue" is simply not worth it. Ignorance is no excuse, it is the sys admin's job to know how to install and configure the OS. Mission Critical, and Professional Systems should consider using RHEL. Cheers All. -Jason Matthew Miller wrote: >On Fri, Nov 12, 2004 at 10:43:51AM -0500, Aaron Bennett wrote: > > >>/usr/share/dict/works contains the following unprofessional words: >> >> > >Yep. But it's a big dictionary of common words, not a picked list. And let's >be realistic -- the existing list appears hand-picked to contain >controversial terms. I personally find it amusing, but I understand why >others don't. I also think that the line drawn by the existing 'sanitize' >patch is reasonable. > > > > From kyrre at solution-forge.net Fri Nov 12 18:27:45 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 19:27:45 +0100 Subject: "Professionalism" syntax In-Reply-To: <1100274322.9554.10.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> References: <1100268764.2223.8.camel@Laptron4020.attbi.com> <20041112143059.GA1632@jadzia.bu.edu> <1100269931.6926.43.camel@binkley> <1100273623.2691.3.camel@kyrre> <1100274322.9554.10.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> Message-ID: <1100284064.4132.25.camel@kyrre> fre, 12.11.2004 kl. 16.45 skrev seth vidal: > > I understand your point (and i have no problems with it *myself*), but > > if my manager came to me complaining about "hey! That new Linux-thingy, > > you installed, it popped up "penis" on my projector, while i was > > presenting our might-be new customers a new product!" and i never even > > had thought of the posibility - i would have been bloody damn embarassed > > and angry. > > > > So you're kowtowing to a purely hypothetical, corporate, prurient > interest? > No, i am not. On my *personal* desktop i would not have any problem with porn pictures being the default screensaver (unless my mother saw it...) - as i know how to find the screensaver control dialog. I would just find it stupid, childish, and generally looking like something two teenage boys had programmed at night. We don't want Linux/RH/Fedora/etc to look like something programmed by two High School students, we want it to look like the rock solid, professional piece of software it *IS*. Something that just does what it should do, and nothing else. Something you can thrust. > I don't want a distribution I work on censored b/c someone is afraid > their screensaver might offend a customer. > If people are concerned about 'decency' in certain packages then let > them add a distribution-nanny package that cleans these things up. > > yum install frightened_of_naughty_words.noarch > or "yum install naugty_words" Kyrre. From notting at redhat.com Fri Nov 12 19:06:28 2004 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 14:06:28 -0500 Subject: "Professionalism" syntax In-Reply-To: <1100274937.9554.21.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> References: <1100268764.2223.8.camel@Laptron4020.attbi.com> <20041112143059.GA1632@jadzia.bu.edu> <1100269931.6926.43.camel@binkley> <20041112152838.GA3189@jadzia.bu.edu> <1100274937.9554.21.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> Message-ID: <20041112190628.GB12609@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> seth vidal (skvidal at phy.duke.edu) said: > On Fri, 2004-11-12 at 10:28, Matthew Miller wrote: > > On Fri, Nov 12, 2004 at 09:32:11AM -0500, seth vidal wrote: > > > Should the word 'breast' be removed? How about 'atheist'? Is 'liberal' a > > > dirty word, too? > > > > This is a slippery-slope argument. I think a reasonable determination of > > "words likely to embarrass Eric Troan when shown on the big screen at OLS" > > can be made. :) > > Guess what, I bet everyone there thought it was funny and silly. But not > offensive. Eric obviously wasn't too worried about it. I'd expect Erik would be more concerned about spelling his name right in this thread. :) Bill From mattdm at mattdm.org Fri Nov 12 19:11:53 2004 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 14:11:53 -0500 Subject: "Professionalism" syntax In-Reply-To: <20041112190628.GB12609@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1100268764.2223.8.camel@Laptron4020.attbi.com> <20041112143059.GA1632@jadzia.bu.edu> <1100269931.6926.43.camel@binkley> <20041112152838.GA3189@jadzia.bu.edu> <1100274937.9554.21.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <20041112190628.GB12609@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20041112191153.GA12746@jadzia.bu.edu> On Fri, Nov 12, 2004 at 02:06:28PM -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > Guess what, I bet everyone there thought it was funny and silly. But not > > offensive. Eric obviously wasn't too worried about it. > I'd expect Erik would be more concerned about spelling his name > right in this thread. :) Hmmm. Maybe the barcode screensaver should be patched to be a credits list rather than random words. :) -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> From kyrre at solution-forge.net Fri Nov 12 19:25:59 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 20:25:59 +0100 Subject: "Professionalism" syntax In-Reply-To: <41950107.6050300@cassiopaea.com> References: <1100268764.2223.8.camel@Laptron4020.attbi.com> <20041112143059.GA1632@jadzia.bu.edu> <1100269931.6926.43.camel@binkley> <20041112152838.GA3189@jadzia.bu.edu> <4194DA37.2020802@olin.edu> <20041112164811.GA6269@jadzia.bu.edu> <41950107.6050300@cassiopaea.com> Message-ID: <1100287558.4132.42.camel@kyrre> fre, 12.11.2004 kl. 19.29 skrev Jason Knight: > This has really gone on a long time, > > My absolute last recommendation on this topic is: The effort, however > small, to address this "issue" is simply not worth it. > > Ignorance is no excuse, it is the sys admin's job to know how to install > and configure the OS. > > Mission Critical, and Professional Systems should consider using RHEL. > So RHL has removed it? > Cheers All. > -Jason > > Matthew Miller wrote: > > >On Fri, Nov 12, 2004 at 10:43:51AM -0500, Aaron Bennett wrote: > > > > > >>/usr/share/dict/works contains the following unprofessional words: > >> > >> > > > >Yep. But it's a big dictionary of common words, not a picked list. And let's > >be realistic -- the existing list appears hand-picked to contain > >controversial terms. I personally find it amusing, but I understand why > >others don't. I also think that the line drawn by the existing 'sanitize' > >patch is reasonable. > > > > > > > > From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Fri Nov 12 19:34:19 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 14:34:19 -0500 Subject: "Professionalism" syntax In-Reply-To: <1100284064.4132.25.camel@kyrre> References: <1100268764.2223.8.camel@Laptron4020.attbi.com> <20041112143059.GA1632@jadzia.bu.edu> <1100269931.6926.43.camel@binkley> <1100273623.2691.3.camel@kyrre> <1100274322.9554.10.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1100284064.4132.25.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: <1100288058.14648.9.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> > > I don't want a distribution I work on censored b/c someone is afraid > > their screensaver might offend a customer. > > If people are concerned about 'decency' in certain packages then let > > them add a distribution-nanny package that cleans these things up. > > > > yum install frightened_of_naughty_words.noarch > > > > or "yum install naugty_words" I don't want other people making the determination for me what is or is not a 'naughty word'. There are a whole set of words that I believe might be considered inappropriate depending on one's religion that I would not want removed at all. Local mores are the responsibility of the Local Administrator. If you feel certain words will be found to be offensive by your users then YOU have to remove them. We will not find a group of words that is commonly accepted as offensive. -sv From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Fri Nov 12 19:37:20 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 14:37:20 -0500 Subject: "Professionalism" syntax In-Reply-To: <20041112165015.GB6269@jadzia.bu.edu> References: <1100268764.2223.8.camel@Laptron4020.attbi.com> <20041112143059.GA1632@jadzia.bu.edu> <1100269931.6926.43.camel@binkley> <20041112152838.GA3189@jadzia.bu.edu> <1100274937.9554.21.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <20041112165015.GB6269@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: <1100288240.14648.11.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> > I know. I hope you don't think I'm taking this too seriously. But clearly, > it's reasonable for there to be a line somewhere -- a "standard", if you > will. Would you argue so strongly if the original list contained, say, > "fuck"? No, There is not a reasonable line. It is only determinable based on your local standards. That means the local administrator must make those decisions. All words are offensive to someone. -sv From kyrre at solution-forge.net Fri Nov 12 19:56:19 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 20:56:19 +0100 Subject: "Professionalism" syntax In-Reply-To: <1100288058.14648.9.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> References: <1100268764.2223.8.camel@Laptron4020.attbi.com> <20041112143059.GA1632@jadzia.bu.edu> <1100269931.6926.43.camel@binkley> <1100273623.2691.3.camel@kyrre> <1100274322.9554.10.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1100284064.4132.25.camel@kyrre> <1100288058.14648.9.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> Message-ID: <1100289379.4132.47.camel@kyrre> fre, 12.11.2004 kl. 20.34 skrev seth vidal: > > > I don't want a distribution I work on censored b/c someone is afraid > > > their screensaver might offend a customer. > > > If people are concerned about 'decency' in certain packages then let > > > them add a distribution-nanny package that cleans these things up. > > > > > > yum install frightened_of_naughty_words.noarch > > > > > > > or "yum install naugty_words" > > > I don't want other people making the determination for me what is or is > not a 'naughty word'. There are a whole set of words that I believe > might be considered inappropriate depending on one's religion that I > would not want removed at all. > > Local mores are the responsibility of the Local Administrator. If you > feel certain words will be found to be offensive by your users then YOU > have to remove them. > > We will not find a group of words that is commonly accepted as > offensive. > -sv > > No but you might find that some words are found "unprofessional" for 95% of the userbase - even if they personally don't care. From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Fri Nov 12 20:00:44 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 15:00:44 -0500 Subject: "Professionalism" syntax In-Reply-To: <1100289379.4132.47.camel@kyrre> References: <1100268764.2223.8.camel@Laptron4020.attbi.com> <20041112143059.GA1632@jadzia.bu.edu> <1100269931.6926.43.camel@binkley> <1100273623.2691.3.camel@kyrre> <1100274322.9554.10.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1100284064.4132.25.camel@kyrre> <1100288058.14648.9.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1100289379.4132.47.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: <1100289644.14648.13.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> > No but you might find that some words are found "unprofessional" for 95% > of the userbase - even if they personally don't care. What if I happen to be in the world's oldest profession? I think you're generalizing overly much and making far too sweeping assumptions about mores and values. -sv From tjb at unh.edu Fri Nov 12 20:03:14 2004 From: tjb at unh.edu (Thomas J. Baker) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 15:03:14 -0500 Subject: Official Bluecurve Firefox Theme? Message-ID: <1100289794.18951.15.camel@wintermute.sr.unh.edu> I would guess that there's got to be a bluecurve theme in the works somewhere at Red Hat. Any chance we could get a preview. The FireCurveBlue theme doesn't work with firefox 1.0 and the homepage for the theme appears gone. Thanks, tjb -- ======================================================================= | Thomas Baker email: tjb at unh.edu | | Systems Programmer | | Research Computing Center voice: (603) 862-4490 | | University of New Hampshire fax: (603) 862-1761 | | 332 Morse Hall | | Durham, NH 03824 USA http://wintermute.sr.unh.edu/~tjb | ======================================================================= From lars at homer.se Fri Nov 12 20:17:30 2004 From: lars at homer.se (Lars E. Pettersson) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 21:17:30 +0100 Subject: Official Bluecurve Firefox Theme? In-Reply-To: <1100289794.18951.15.camel@wintermute.sr.unh.edu> References: <1100289794.18951.15.camel@wintermute.sr.unh.edu> Message-ID: <41951A5A.3020108@homer.se> On 11/12/2004 09:03 PM, Thomas J. Baker wrote: > I would guess that there's got to be a bluecurve theme in the works > somewhere at Red Hat. Any chance we could get a preview. The > FireCurveBlue theme doesn't work with firefox 1.0 and the homepage for > the theme appears gone. Have you looked at the 1.0 Firefox in rawhide? That one has what I think you mean with bluecurve theme icons (I just had it in a short while before the Firefox 1.0 was released as an update for FC3.) I hope that we that like the Mozilla icons still will have the option in the Tools->Themes dialog to chose between bluecurve, and Firefox original (by Gerich and Horlander) (did not see any way to restore the original icons in the rawhide Firefox 1.0) Lars -- Lars E. Pettersson http://www.sm6rpz.se/ From mattdm at mattdm.org Fri Nov 12 20:26:32 2004 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 15:26:32 -0500 Subject: "Professionalism" syntax In-Reply-To: <1100289644.14648.13.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> References: <1100268764.2223.8.camel@Laptron4020.attbi.com> <20041112143059.GA1632@jadzia.bu.edu> <1100269931.6926.43.camel@binkley> <1100273623.2691.3.camel@kyrre> <1100274322.9554.10.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1100284064.4132.25.camel@kyrre> <1100288058.14648.9.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1100289379.4132.47.camel@kyrre> <1100289644.14648.13.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> Message-ID: <20041112202632.GA15785@jadzia.bu.edu> On Fri, Nov 12, 2004 at 03:00:44PM -0500, seth vidal wrote: > > No but you might find that some words are found "unprofessional" for 95% > > of the userbase - even if they personally don't care. > What if I happen to be in the world's oldest profession? > I think you're generalizing overly much and making far too sweeping > assumptions about mores and values. But, y'know, we could apply the advice George Carlin gave his daughter. (If you can't trust George Carlin's moral judgement on this issue, who *can* you trust? [Appeal to authority]) -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> From tjb at unh.edu Fri Nov 12 20:36:38 2004 From: tjb at unh.edu (Thomas J. Baker) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 15:36:38 -0500 Subject: Official Bluecurve Firefox Theme? In-Reply-To: <41951A5A.3020108@homer.se> References: <1100289794.18951.15.camel@wintermute.sr.unh.edu> <41951A5A.3020108@homer.se> Message-ID: <1100291798.18951.25.camel@wintermute.sr.unh.edu> On Fri, 2004-11-12 at 21:17 +0100, Lars E. Pettersson wrote: > On 11/12/2004 09:03 PM, Thomas J. Baker wrote: > > I would guess that there's got to be a bluecurve theme in the works > > somewhere at Red Hat. Any chance we could get a preview. The > > FireCurveBlue theme doesn't work with firefox 1.0 and the homepage for > > the theme appears gone. > > Have you looked at the 1.0 Firefox in rawhide? That one has what I think > you mean with bluecurve theme icons (I just had it in a short while > before the Firefox 1.0 was released as an update for FC3.) > > I hope that we that like the Mozilla icons still will have the option in > the Tools->Themes dialog to chose between bluecurve, and Firefox > original (by Gerich and Horlander) (did not see any way to restore the > original icons in the rawhide Firefox 1.0) > > Lars > -- > Lars E. Pettersson > http://www.sm6rpz.se/ > Thanks. I'll check it out, although I haven't got a successful mirror of anything since Sunday... tjb -- ======================================================================= | Thomas Baker email: tjb at unh.edu | | Systems Programmer | | Research Computing Center voice: (603) 862-4490 | | University of New Hampshire fax: (603) 862-1761 | | 332 Morse Hall | | Durham, NH 03824 USA http://wintermute.sr.unh.edu/~tjb | ======================================================================= From caillon at redhat.com Sat Nov 13 08:13:52 2004 From: caillon at redhat.com (Christopher Aillon) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 03:13:52 -0500 Subject: Official Bluecurve Firefox Theme? In-Reply-To: <1100289794.18951.15.camel@wintermute.sr.unh.edu> References: <1100289794.18951.15.camel@wintermute.sr.unh.edu> Message-ID: <4195C240.3090205@redhat.com> Thomas J. Baker wrote: > I would guess that there's got to be a bluecurve theme in the works > somewhere at Red Hat. Any chance we could get a preview. The > FireCurveBlue theme doesn't work with firefox 1.0 and the homepage for > the theme appears gone. The Rawhide package, mirrored at http://people.redhat.com/caillon/RPMS/rawhide/mozilla.org/ contains a patch to supply whatever icons your GNOME theme uses. However, there still are some issues with it that need sorting out before it gets turned on in FC3. From lars at homer.se Sat Nov 13 12:19:59 2004 From: lars at homer.se (Lars E. Pettersson) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 13:19:59 +0100 Subject: Official Bluecurve Firefox Theme? In-Reply-To: <4195C240.3090205@redhat.com> References: <1100289794.18951.15.camel@wintermute.sr.unh.edu> <4195C240.3090205@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4195FBEF.3010404@homer.se> On 11/13/2004 09:13 AM, Christopher Aillon wrote: > The Rawhide package, mirrored at > http://people.redhat.com/caillon/RPMS/rawhide/mozilla.org/ contains a > patch to supply whatever icons your GNOME theme uses. Will it be possible to also chose the original Firefox theme? I use Bluecurve as theme in Gnome, but like the icons used by Firefox (and Thunderbird.) I could not see any way to get the original Firefox theme back in the rawhide Firefox 1.0 when I tested it, but would like to see that as an option when it hits FC3 update. Lars -- Lars E. Pettersson http://www.sm6rpz.se/ From caillon at redhat.com Sat Nov 13 12:28:55 2004 From: caillon at redhat.com (Christopher Aillon) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 07:28:55 -0500 Subject: Official Bluecurve Firefox Theme? In-Reply-To: <4195FBEF.3010404@homer.se> References: <1100289794.18951.15.camel@wintermute.sr.unh.edu> <4195C240.3090205@redhat.com> <4195FBEF.3010404@homer.se> Message-ID: <4195FE07.2060808@redhat.com> Lars E. Pettersson wrote: > Will it be possible to also chose the original Firefox theme? This is a change that will be made upstream to the "original" theme. From lars at homer.se Sat Nov 13 12:45:33 2004 From: lars at homer.se (Lars E. Pettersson) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 13:45:33 +0100 Subject: Official Bluecurve Firefox Theme? In-Reply-To: <4195FE07.2060808@redhat.com> References: <1100289794.18951.15.camel@wintermute.sr.unh.edu> <4195C240.3090205@redhat.com> <4195FBEF.3010404@homer.se> <4195FE07.2060808@redhat.com> Message-ID: <419601ED.6080509@homer.se> On 11/13/2004 01:28 PM, Christopher Aillon wrote: > Lars E. Pettersson wrote: > >> Will it be possible to also chose the original Firefox theme? > > This is a change that will be made upstream to the "original" theme. Just to clarify things, so it will always use the Gnome theme used at the moment then? OK, then my only hope is that the original theme, what is called "Firefox (default) 2.0, Gerich and Horlander" just now (do not know if it has a more official name), will be available as an download from Mozilla. I really like the icons used there... Lars -- Lars E. Pettersson http://www.sm6rpz.se/ From moreshwars at hotmail.com Sat Nov 13 14:53:15 2004 From: moreshwars at hotmail.com (Moreshwar Salpekar) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 20:23:15 +0530 Subject: Fedora-desktop-list Digest, Vol 9, Issue 3 References: <20041112095621.89F7373248@hormel.redhat.com> Message-ID: I do not know where to get FC 3 I am able to lay hands on FC2 only lay idea where to get Fedora 3 CDs (In India). If I could lay hands on that I will install FC 3. Thanks for help Regards Moreshwar ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 15:26 Subject: Fedora-desktop-list Digest, Vol 9, Issue 3 > Send Fedora-desktop-list mailing list submissions to > fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > fedora-desktop-list-request at redhat.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > fedora-desktop-list-owner at redhat.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Fedora-desktop-list digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Serial ATA Supprt (Moreshwar Salpekar) > 2. FC3 desktop can`t log out or reboot (Kaspars) > 3. Re: Serial ATA Supprt (Arturo) > 4. Re: Professionalism (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) > 5. Re: Serial ATA Supprt (Alex Catullo) > 6. Re: FC3 desktop can`t log out or reboot (Jon Orris) > 7. Re: "Professionalism" (Matthew Miller) > 8. Re: Professionalism (Alex Catullo) > 9. Re: Professionalism (Jason Knight) > 10. Re: "Professinalism" syntax (Wally Wilson) > 11. Re: Professionalism (Arturo) > 12. Re: "Professinalism" syntax (seth vidal) > 13. Re: Professionalism (Matthew Miller) > 14. Re: Professionalism (Dave Jones) > 15. Re: Professionalism (Arturo) > 16. Re: Professionalism (Douglas Furlong) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 23:00:25 +0530 > From: "Moreshwar Salpekar" > Subject: Serial ATA Supprt > To: > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Dear All, > I am new to this group. I just got a PC with motherboard Intel 915GAV. It > has two Serial ATA Hard disks one of 120GB with WinXP and other 80GB I want > to use for Fedora. I want to know what core of Fedore I should go for. I got > Fedora Core 1 but it is unable to detect my hard drives. Will Fedora Core 2 > Help? > I read somewhere that Linux Kernel 2.6.x supports Serial ATA but Fedora docs > mention nowhere on Serial ATA support is it there in fedora? If not where do > I get Serial ATA driver? I looked at Seagate site (both my hard drives are > Seagate) but nothing there on Serial ATA driver for Linux? > > I want to install Fedora asap. > > Regards > Moreshwar > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:15:58 +0200 > From: Kaspars > Subject: FC3 desktop can`t log out or reboot > To: fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > Message-ID: <41939E4E.2070105 at os.lv> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed > > > Hi all, > > I get FC3 DVD diska and installed fresh FC3 on my desktop wrk. > I boot in GUI and log in. My problem is that I can`t log out or reboot > or halt computer from GUI from desktop... i use defalt desktop what it > use. I updated all but still problem how i see is not corrected(maybe it > is only my pc problem). > So what I do is in FC3(I think def. I use Gnome), I want to reboot pc > and I go Action -> Log Out -> Chek "Restart the computer" and push Ok. > and it hangs. The some is with "Log out" or "Shut down"... I need to go > to console bu ctrl+alt+F1 and log in as root and command to reboot. > How and where to fix it? And I only have satch problem? > > thanks all, > > Casper > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 17:51:36 +0000 > From: Arturo > Subject: Re: Serial ATA Supprt > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > > Message-ID: <4193A6A8.405 at flashmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed > > Moreshwar Salpekar wrote: > > >Dear All, > >I am new to this group. I just got a PC with motherboard Intel 915GAV. It > >has two Serial ATA Hard disks one of 120GB with WinXP and other 80GB I want > >to use for Fedora. I want to know what core of Fedore I should go for. I got > >Fedora Core 1 but it is unable to detect my hard drives. Will Fedora Core 2 > >Help? > >I read somewhere that Linux Kernel 2.6.x supports Serial ATA but Fedora docs > >mention nowhere on Serial ATA support is it there in fedora? If not where do > >I get Serial ATA driver? I looked at Seagate site (both my hard drives are > >Seagate) but nothing there on Serial ATA driver for Linux? > > > >I want to install Fedora asap. > > > >Regards > >Moreshwar > > > > > > > I am no guru. But I have an SATA HDD in my Linux server. And I built it > from scratch (components) . My motherboard also has an SATA port, I > installed FC2 without a hitch. I didn't try FC1 on that setup. > > BTW.....any reason why you're not installing FC3? > > Peace > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:08:39 +0100 > From: Kyrre Ness Sjobak > Subject: Re: Professionalism > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > > Message-ID: <1100196519.2683.3.camel at kyrre> > Content-Type: text/plain > > tor, 11.11.2004 kl. 16.08 skrev seth vidal: > > On Thu, 2004-11-11 at 14:58 +0000, chapmanccc at juno.com wrote: > > > To the developers, > > > > > > The Linux operating system is maturing and we all hope that it will be > > > a major contender in the home and business markets. As it approaches > > > this goal, the customer base changes. Linux is no longer the "geek > > > OS" it once was. Where once the predominant profile of a Linux user > > > was a young male, you now find fathers and husbands (I am both), women > > > (I am married to one) and children (I have three). Linux is my main > > > OS at home and my wife and oldest child also use it. > > > > > > With this evolution, a level of professionalism must also take place. > > > Being that the Fedora project is one of the leading consumer Linux > > > distributions, I would hope the developers would want to 'lead the > > > pack' in this area. > > > > > > This brings me to my point. I was rather disappointed with the > > > content in the "WebCollage" and "Barcode" screensavers. These > > > screensavers have since been manually removed from my system, but I > > > would have preferred them not to be installed by default. When I > > > install Mac OS or Windows, garbage like this is not included. Why? > > > Because the developers strive to build a professional product. Yes, I > > > can install items like this with Mac OS or Windows, but I would need > > > to download or purchase them after installing the OS. > > > > > > Developers, please be considerate when creating the Fedora > > > distributions and let's strive to make Linux as professional as > > > possible. > > > > I agree, We should have more professional behavior. And since most > > professionals are adults and know that world is filled with all sorts of > > things that _you_ may not like but that others may, I think we should > > respect the differences between people and let adults choose what > > behavior of their screensavers they want. Therefore, I recommend > > screensaver preferences! In EVERY DESKTOP! The ability to choose a > > screensaver must be included in the distribution to put a stop to this > > anti-professional degradation. > > > > > > oh.. wait.. they're already there. > > > > hmm. > > > > -sv > > > > Yes they are. But imagine removing those on every damn user profile > in... lets say a school. > > What really should be done, is split the screensaverpackage in three > rpms (at least) - "xscreensaver-safe", "xcsreensaver-gl", and > "xscreensaver-others". At least the two first should be installed by > default. The reason to split it, is that the gl package can then be > removed safely from systems where it is not wanted. Simply beckause they > suck CPU, and on non-hw-3d deployments, you migth not want them. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:20:30 -0500 > From: Alex Catullo > Subject: Re: Serial ATA Supprt > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > > Message-ID: <6dc131f204111110201af49795 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > Fedora core 2 and 3 should both detect SATA. If you still have trouble > with it, in the BIOS menu, go to the "advanced" tab and look at the > IDE configuration. By default, the IDE settings are set to "enhanced" > Switch that to "legacy" and make sure SATA 0 and IDE pri and sec are > active. > > > > On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 23:00:25 +0530, Moreshwar Salpekar > wrote: > > Dear All, > > I am new to this group. I just got a PC with motherboard Intel 915GAV. It > > has two Serial ATA Hard disks one of 120GB with WinXP and other 80GB I want > > to use for Fedora. I want to know what core of Fedore I should go for. I got > > Fedora Core 1 but it is unable to detect my hard drives. Will Fedora Core 2 > > Help? > > I read somewhere that Linux Kernel 2.6.x supports Serial ATA but Fedora docs > > mention nowhere on Serial ATA support is it there in fedora? If not where do > > I get Serial ATA driver? I looked at Seagate site (both my hard drives are > > Seagate) but nothing there on Serial ATA driver for Linux? > > > > I want to install Fedora asap. > > > > Regards > > Moreshwar > > > > -- > > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:31:16 -0500 > From: Jon Orris > Subject: Re: FC3 desktop can`t log out or reboot > To: fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > Message-ID: <1100197876.3855.3.camel at web.checkm8.com> > Content-Type: text/plain > > On Thu, 2004-11-11 at 19:15 +0200, Kaspars wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I get FC3 DVD diska and installed fresh FC3 on my desktop wrk. > > I boot in GUI and log in. My problem is that I can`t log out or reboot > > or halt computer from GUI from desktop... i use defalt desktop what it > > use. I updated all but still problem how i see is not corrected(maybe it > > is only my pc problem). > > So what I do is in FC3(I think def. I use Gnome), I want to reboot pc > > and I go Action -> Log Out -> Chek "Restart the computer" and push Ok. > > and it hangs. The some is with "Log out" or "Shut down"... I need to go > > to console bu ctrl+alt+F1 and log in as root and command to reboot. > > How and where to fix it? And I only have satch problem? > > > > thanks all, > > >From your description, it sounds like this bug that I reported: > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=134265 > > The current workaround is to disable DRI, at least on my machine. > > It may be helpful in tracking the root cause if you append your hardware > & xconfig info to the bug report. > > > -- > Jon Orris > Red Hat > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:35:56 -0500 > From: Matthew Miller > Subject: Re: "Professionalism" > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > > Message-ID: <20041111183556.GB30285 at jadzia.bu.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > On Thu, Nov 11, 2004 at 10:49:59AM -0500, Dave Jones wrote: > > At OLS last year (I think during Erik Troan's talk on conary), whilst > > taking questions, barcode kicked in. On a ~10ft projector, with the > > word 'flatulence'. > > That's one of the words that's patched out, actually. > > Hmm; on looking, the "sanitize-hacks" patch wasn't in FC2; it's new to FC3. > Perhaps right after the incident you mention. :) > > > -- > Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org > Boston University Linux ------> > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 14:06:46 -0500 > From: Alex Catullo > Subject: Re: Professionalism > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > > Message-ID: <6dc131f20411111106640f5e9f at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > Professionalism in linux is definitely a nice thing, but if you want > it, go out and get a copy of enterprise Linux. In Fedora, it's all > about the bleeding edge technology and newest ideas from the > community, and being "professional" limits that quite a bit. At least > in fedora ther'es the freedom for the creative things like the > "unprofessional" barcode and flying toasters screensavers. That's what > it's all about, the freedom to add any ideas; and that's why Fedora > isn't "professional" > > "I was rather disappointed with the content in the "WebCollage" and > "Barcode" screensavers. These screensavers have since been manually > removed from my system, but I would have preferred them not to be > installed by default. When I install Mac OS or Windows, garbage like > this is not included. Why?" > > Because this is Linux. Linux is meant to be that quirky OS that > releives the boredom of stock operating systems like windows. If you > want to be professional, use RHEL. But in Fedora, we strive to endorse > new ideas, regardless of their "professionality" > > On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:08:39 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak > wrote: > > tor, 11.11.2004 kl. 16.08 skrev seth vidal: > > > > > > > On Thu, 2004-11-11 at 14:58 +0000, chapmanccc at juno.com wrote: > > > > To the developers, > > > > > > > > The Linux operating system is maturing and we all hope that it will be > > > > a major contender in the home and business markets. As it approaches > > > > this goal, the customer base changes. Linux is no longer the "geek > > > > OS" it once was. Where once the predominant profile of a Linux user > > > > was a young male, you now find fathers and husbands (I am both), women > > > > (I am married to one) and children (I have three). Linux is my main > > > > OS at home and my wife and oldest child also use it. > > > > > > > > With this evolution, a level of professionalism must also take place. > > > > Being that the Fedora project is one of the leading consumer Linux > > > > distributions, I would hope the developers would want to 'lead the > > > > pack' in this area. > > > > > > > > This brings me to my point. I was rather disappointed with the > > > > content in the "WebCollage" and "Barcode" screensavers. These > > > > screensavers have since been manually removed from my system, but I > > > > would have preferred them not to be installed by default. When I > > > > install Mac OS or Windows, garbage like this is not included. Why? > > > > Because the developers strive to build a professional product. Yes, I > > > > can install items like this with Mac OS or Windows, but I would need > > > > to download or purchase them after installing the OS. > > > > > > > > Developers, please be considerate when creating the Fedora > > > > distributions and let's strive to make Linux as professional as > > > > possible. > > > > > > I agree, We should have more professional behavior. And since most > > > professionals are adults and know that world is filled with all sorts of > > > things that _you_ may not like but that others may, I think we should > > > respect the differences between people and let adults choose what > > > behavior of their screensavers they want. Therefore, I recommend > > > screensaver preferences! In EVERY DESKTOP! The ability to choose a > > > screensaver must be included in the distribution to put a stop to this > > > anti-professional degradation. > > > > > > > > > oh.. wait.. they're already there. > > > > > > hmm. > > > > > > -sv > > > > > > > Yes they are. But imagine removing those on every damn user profile > > in... lets say a school. > > > > What really should be done, is split the screensaverpackage in three > > rpms (at least) - "xscreensaver-safe", "xcsreensaver-gl", and > > "xscreensaver-others". At least the two first should be installed by > > default. The reason to split it, is that the gl package can then be > > removed safely from systems where it is not wanted. Simply beckause they > > suck CPU, and on non-hw-3d deployments, you migth not want them. > > > > > > > > -- > > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 16:31:27 -0500 > From: Jason Knight > Subject: Re: Professionalism > To: Alex Catullo , Discussions about development > for the Fedora desktop > Message-ID: <4193DA2F.5090409 at cassiopaea.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > I understand both sides of the coin but I agree with Alex. Also; > > [And since most professionals are adults and know that world is filled > with all sorts of things that _you_ may not like but that others may[...]] > > This works both ways, Fedora is a project meant to encourage creativity > and contribution. It makes no claims to being "The Safest Linux for Your > Kids!", "Squeamish? Worry not dear fellow, we strive daily to insure > that you and your family are completely insolated from the peckidillos > and quirks of others!" > > "We either accept all freedom for all people, or we accept no freedom > for anyone. The happy medium is an illusion." > > Of course, Fedora is RH's project, and it is steered by a committee, so > we must abide by their decsions, but I don't see even mildly-moderately > offensive screensavers being a huge issue in an Open Source, community > driven project where creative innovation is desired. Let's try to keep a > light heart! > > > > -ishikawa > > > Alex Catullo wrote: > > >Professionalism in linux is definitely a nice thing, but if you want > >it, go out and get a copy of enterprise Linux. In Fedora, it's all > >about the bleeding edge technology and newest ideas from the > >community, and being "professional" limits that quite a bit. At least > >in fedora ther'es the freedom for the creative things like the > >"unprofessional" barcode and flying toasters screensavers. That's what > >it's all about, the freedom to add any ideas; and that's why Fedora > >isn't "professional" > > > > "I was rather disappointed with the content in the "WebCollage" and > >"Barcode" screensavers. These screensavers have since been manually > >removed from my system, but I would have preferred them not to be > >installed by default. When I install Mac OS or Windows, garbage like > >this is not included. Why?" > > > >Because this is Linux. Linux is meant to be that quirky OS that > >releives the boredom of stock operating systems like windows. If you > >want to be professional, use RHEL. But in Fedora, we strive to endorse > >new ideas, regardless of their "professionality" > > > >On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:08:39 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak > > wrote: > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 14:28:51 -0800 > From: Wally Wilson > Subject: Re: "Professinalism" syntax > To: fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > Message-ID: <1100212131.2230.10.camel at Laptron4020.attbi.com> > Content-Type: text/plain > > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > > On Thu, 2004-11-11 at 10:49 -0500, Dave Jones wrote: > > On Thu, Nov 11, 2004 at 10:34:40AM -0500, Matthew Miller wrote: > > > > At OLS last year (I think during Erik Troan's talk on conary), whilst > > taking questions, barcode kicked in. On a ~10ft projector, with the > > word 'flatulence'. > > > > Unfortunate and somewhat embarressing perhaps, but highly amusing. > > > > The choice of words barcode uses do seem to be of this nature a lot > > of the time, so I can sort of see the OPs point. > > I'm all for professionalism but I'm MORE for acting like an adult and > realizing the world isn't all roses and tea. > -sv > -------------------------------- > > The real issue -- the issue that the original author failed to address > -- is not about "professionalism" at all. The real issue is about > personal mores and taste. > > Words mean things, and the Fedora package is every bit as "professional" > as any other Linux distro. > > If someone does not like, or want something as simple as a screen saver, > for whatever reasons, it is their choice and their responsibility to > address the matter on each machine they administer. The same argument > could be made for including games in the distro when it is used in a > work environment that does not allow games. > > The responsibility for administering a system lies with the owner, not > the software manufacturer. MS has made good money trying to remove the > responsibility of system admin from its userbase, and that is not how > the real world works. > > -wally > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 00:06:40 +0000 > From: Arturo > Subject: Re: Professionalism > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > > Message-ID: <4193FE90.3090402 at flashmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed > > Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > > >tor, 11.11.2004 kl. 16.08 skrev seth vidal: > > > > > >>On Thu, 2004-11-11 at 14:58 +0000, chapmanccc at juno.com wrote: > >> > >> > >>>To the developers, > >>> > >>>The Linux operating system is maturing and we all hope that it will be > >>>a major contender in the home and business markets. As it approaches > >>>this goal, the customer base changes. Linux is no longer the "geek > >>>OS" it once was. Where once the predominant profile of a Linux user > >>>was a young male, you now find fathers and husbands (I am both), women > >>>(I am married to one) and children (I have three). Linux is my main > >>>OS at home and my wife and oldest child also use it. > >>> > >>>With this evolution, a level of professionalism must also take place. > >>>Being that the Fedora project is one of the leading consumer Linux > >>>distributions, I would hope the developers would want to 'lead the > >>>pack' in this area. > >>> > >>>This brings me to my point. I was rather disappointed with the > >>>content in the "WebCollage" and "Barcode" screensavers. These > >>>screensavers have since been manually removed from my system, but I > >>>would have preferred them not to be installed by default. When I > >>>install Mac OS or Windows, garbage like this is not included. Why? > >>>Because the developers strive to build a professional product. Yes, I > >>>can install items like this with Mac OS or Windows, but I would need > >>>to download or purchase them after installing the OS. > >>> > >>>Developers, please be considerate when creating the Fedora > >>>distributions and let's strive to make Linux as professional as > >>>possible. > >>> > >>> > >>I agree, We should have more professional behavior. And since most > >>professionals are adults and know that world is filled with all sorts of > >>things that _you_ may not like but that others may, I think we should > >>respect the differences between people and let adults choose what > >>behavior of their screensavers they want. Therefore, I recommend > >>screensaver preferences! In EVERY DESKTOP! The ability to choose a > >>screensaver must be included in the distribution to put a stop to this > >>anti-professional degradation. > >> > >> > >>oh.. wait.. they're already there. > >> > >>hmm. > >> > >>-sv > >> > >> > >> > > > >Yes they are. But imagine removing those on every damn user profile > >in... lets say a school. > > > >What really should be done, is split the screensaverpackage in three > >rpms (at least) - "xscreensaver-safe", "xcsreensaver-gl", and > >"xscreensaver-others". At least the two first should be installed by > >default. The reason to split it, is that the gl package can then be > >removed safely from systems where it is not wanted. Simply beckause they > >suck CPU, and on non-hw-3d deployments, you migth not want them. > > > > > > > This is the most constructive suggestion I've seen on the list so far in > response to this issue, and so I second it.. I am however, somwhat > curious as to what offensive words popped-up in Barcode. > > Peace > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 12 > Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:21:50 -0500 > From: seth vidal > Subject: Re: "Professinalism" syntax > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > > Message-ID: <1100218910.6926.10.camel at binkley> > Content-Type: text/plain > > > > > Words mean things, and the Fedora package is every bit as "professional" > > as any other Linux distro. > > > actually, it's not, it is explicitly a hobbyist distro. > > see the website. > > -sv > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 13 > Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:31:45 -0500 > From: Matthew Miller > Subject: Re: Professionalism > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > > Message-ID: <20041112003145.GA9755 at jadzia.bu.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > On Fri, Nov 12, 2004 at 12:06:40AM +0000, Arturo wrote: > > This is the most constructive suggestion I've seen on the list so far in > > response to this issue, and so I second it.. I am however, somwhat > > curious as to what offensive words popped-up in Barcode. > > Here's the list from FC3 (take that, Bayesian filters...): > > abdomen > abeyance > abhorrence > abrasion > abstraction > acid > addiction > alertness > Algeria > anxiety > aorta > argyle socks > attrition > axis of evil > bamboo > bangle > bankruptcy > baptism > beer > bellicosity > bells > belly > bliss > bogosity > booty > bread > bubba > burrito > California > capybara > cardinality > caribou > carnage > children > chocolate > CLONE > constriction > contrition > cop > corpse > cowboy > crabapple > craziness > cthulhu > Death > decepticon > deception > Decker > decoder > decoy > defenestration > democracy > dependency > despair > desperation > disease > disease > doberman > DOOM > dreams > dreams > drugs > easy > ebony > election > eloquence > emergency > eureka > excommunication > fat > fatherland > Faust > fear > fever > filth > fluff > fnord > freedom > fruit > fruit > futility > gerbils > GOD > goggles > goobers > gorilla > halibut > handmaid > happiness > hate > helplessness > hermaphrodite > heroine > hope > hysteria > icepick > identity > ignorance > importance > individuality > inkling > insurrection > intoxicant > ire > irritant > jade > jaundice > Joyce > kidney stone > kitchenette > kiwi > lathe > lattice > lawyer > lemming > liquidation > lobbyist > love > lozenge > magazine > magnesium > malfunction > marmot > marshmallow > merit > merkin > mescaline > milk > mischief > mistrust > money > monkey > monkeybutter > nationalism > nature > neuron > noise > nomenclature > nutria > OBEY > ocelot > offspring > overseer > pain > pajamas > passenger > passion > Passover > peace > penance > persimmon > petticoat > pharmacist > PhD > pitchfork > plague > Poindexter > politician > pony > presidency > prison > prophecy > Prozac > punishment > punk rock > punk > quagmire > quarantine > quartz > rabies > radish > rage > readout > reality > reject > rejection > respect > revolution > roadrunner > rule > savor > scab > scalar > Scandinavia > schadenfreude > security > sediment > self worth > sickness > silicone > slack > slander > slavery > sledgehammer > smegma > smelly socks > sorrow > space program > stamen > standardization > stench > subculture > subversion > suffering > surrender > surveillance > synthesis > television > tenant > tendril > terror > terrorism > terrorist > the impossible > the unknown > toast > topography > truism > turgid > underbrush > underling > unguent > unusual > uplink > urge > valor > variance > vaudeville > vector > vegetarian > venom > verifiability > victim > vignette > villainy > W.A.S.T.E. > wagon > waiver > warehouse > waste > waveform > whiffle ball > whorl > windmill > words > worm > worship > worship > Xanax > Xerxes > Xhosa > xylophone > yellow > yesterday > your nose > Zanzibar > zeal > zebra > zest > zinc > > > -- > Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org > Boston University Linux ------> > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 14 > Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 19:38:33 -0500 > From: Dave Jones > Subject: Re: Professionalism > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > > Message-ID: <20041112003833.GB5988 at redhat.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > On Thu, Nov 11, 2004 at 07:31:45PM -0500, Matthew Miller wrote: > > On Fri, Nov 12, 2004 at 12:06:40AM +0000, Arturo wrote: > > > This is the most constructive suggestion I've seen on the list so far in > > > response to this issue, and so I second it.. I am however, somwhat > > > curious as to what offensive words popped-up in Barcode. > > > > Here's the list from FC3 (take that, Bayesian filters...): > > It's certainly an insight into that developers head 8-) > > Monkeybutter indeed.. *shakes head* > > Dave > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 15 > Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 00:51:47 +0000 > From: Arturo > Subject: Re: Professionalism > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > > Message-ID: <41940923.60902 at flashmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed > > Dave Jones wrote: > > >On Thu, Nov 11, 2004 at 07:31:45PM -0500, Matthew Miller wrote: > > > On Fri, Nov 12, 2004 at 12:06:40AM +0000, Arturo wrote: > > > > This is the most constructive suggestion I've seen on the list so far in > > > > response to this issue, and so I second it.. I am however, somwhat > > > > curious as to what offensive words popped-up in Barcode. > > > > > > Here's the list from FC3 (take that, Bayesian filters...): > > > >It's certainly an insight into that developers head 8-) > > > > > And what have you learnt, pray tell > > >Monkeybutter indeed.. *shakes head* > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 16 > Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 09:55:44 +0000 > From: Douglas Furlong > Subject: Re: Professionalism > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > > Message-ID: <1100253344.3313.95.camel at douglas-furlong.firebox.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > On Fri, 2004-11-12 at 00:51 +0000, Arturo wrote: > > Dave Jones wrote: > > > > >On Thu, Nov 11, 2004 at 07:31:45PM -0500, Matthew Miller wrote: > > > > On Fri, Nov 12, 2004 at 12:06:40AM +0000, Arturo wrote: > > > > > This is the most constructive suggestion I've seen on the list so far in > > > > > response to this issue, and so I second it.. I am however, somwhat > > > > > curious as to what offensive words popped-up in Barcode. > > > > > > > > Here's the list from FC3 (take that, Bayesian filters...): > > > > > >It's certainly an insight into that developers head 8-) > > > > > > > > And what have you learnt, pray tell > > > If nothing else it has kept me highly ammused. > > However, I am not entirely sure how "Abdomen" is an offencive word, or > unprofessional for that matter :) > > > -- > Douglas Furlong > Systems Administrator > Firebox.com > T: 0870 420 4475 F: 0870 220 2178 > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: not available > Type: application/pgp-signature > Size: 189 bytes > Desc: This is a digitally signed message part > Url : /archives/fedora-desktop-list/attachments/20041112/30caf2b3/attachment.bin > > ------------------------------ > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > > End of Fedora-desktop-list Digest, Vol 9, Issue 3 > ************************************************* > From kyrre at solution-forge.net Sat Nov 13 15:51:42 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 16:51:42 +0100 Subject: "Professionalism" syntax In-Reply-To: <1100289644.14648.13.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> References: <1100268764.2223.8.camel@Laptron4020.attbi.com> <20041112143059.GA1632@jadzia.bu.edu> <1100269931.6926.43.camel@binkley> <1100273623.2691.3.camel@kyrre> <1100274322.9554.10.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1100284064.4132.25.camel@kyrre> <1100288058.14648.9.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1100289379.4132.47.camel@kyrre> <1100289644.14648.13.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> Message-ID: <1100361100.2810.4.camel@kyrre> fre, 12.11.2004 kl. 21.00 skrev seth vidal: > > No but you might find that some words are found "unprofessional" for 95% > > of the userbase - even if they personally don't care. > > What if I happen to be in the world's oldest profession? > You are not. Unless the physics dept. at duke is something else than i might believe. > I think you're generalizing overly much and making far too sweeping > assumptions about mores and values. > > -sv I might. But who will miss it? It is a reason Apple and even M$ don't ship screensavers with words that might be misunderstood. From skvidal at phy.duke.edu Sat Nov 13 16:56:01 2004 From: skvidal at phy.duke.edu (seth vidal) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 11:56:01 -0500 Subject: "Professionalism" syntax In-Reply-To: <1100361100.2810.4.camel@kyrre> References: <1100268764.2223.8.camel@Laptron4020.attbi.com> <20041112143059.GA1632@jadzia.bu.edu> <1100269931.6926.43.camel@binkley> <1100273623.2691.3.camel@kyrre> <1100274322.9554.10.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1100284064.4132.25.camel@kyrre> <1100288058.14648.9.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1100289379.4132.47.camel@kyrre> <1100289644.14648.13.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1100361100.2810.4.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: <1100364961.3426.0.camel@binkley> On Sat, 2004-11-13 at 16:51 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > fre, 12.11.2004 kl. 21.00 skrev seth vidal: > > > No but you might find that some words are found "unprofessional" for 95% > > > of the userbase - even if they personally don't care. > > > > What if I happen to be in the world's oldest profession? > > > > You are not. Unless the physics dept. at duke is something else than i > might believe. > > > I think you're generalizing overly much and making far too sweeping > > assumptions about mores and values. > > > > -sv > > I might. But who will miss it? I will. > It is a reason Apple and even M$ don't ship screensavers with words that > might be misunderstood. I thought it was b/c they weren't nearly as interesting. -sv From kyrre at solution-forge.net Sat Nov 13 17:11:35 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 18:11:35 +0100 Subject: "Professionalism" syntax In-Reply-To: <1100364961.3426.0.camel@binkley> References: <1100268764.2223.8.camel@Laptron4020.attbi.com> <20041112143059.GA1632@jadzia.bu.edu> <1100269931.6926.43.camel@binkley> <1100273623.2691.3.camel@kyrre> <1100274322.9554.10.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1100284064.4132.25.camel@kyrre> <1100288058.14648.9.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1100289379.4132.47.camel@kyrre> <1100289644.14648.13.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1100361100.2810.4.camel@kyrre> <1100364961.3426.0.camel@binkley> Message-ID: <1100365894.3126.5.camel@kyrre> l?r, 13.11.2004 kl. 17.56 skrev seth vidal: > On Sat, 2004-11-13 at 16:51 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > > fre, 12.11.2004 kl. 21.00 skrev seth vidal: > > > > No but you might find that some words are found "unprofessional" for 95% > > > > of the userbase - even if they personally don't care. > > > > > > What if I happen to be in the world's oldest profession? > > > > > > > You are not. Unless the physics dept. at duke is something else than i > > might believe. > > > > > I think you're generalizing overly much and making far too sweeping > > > assumptions about mores and values. > > > > > > -sv > > > > I might. But who will miss it? > > I will. > > you know how to use yum to get them :P > > > It is a reason Apple and even M$ don't ship screensavers with words that > > might be misunderstood. > > I thought it was b/c they weren't nearly as interesting. > Do a nice screensaver need to contain anything that might get misjugded? But can we *please* stop this war? It is getting mor stupid by each post. No-body is suggesting to remove everything funny (such as what should happen to anybody configuring gdm to run as root, according to the gdmsetup help file), but simply: -removing screensavers containing words which can be misjudged -splitting the screensaver rpm into a "fit for you grandma's computer"- and a "needs hw GL"- package - so that you could kill the last one easily. From w5set at alltel.net Sat Nov 13 19:21:24 2004 From: w5set at alltel.net (Steve Thacker) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 13:21:24 -0600 Subject: "Professionalism" syntax In-Reply-To: <1100364961.3426.0.camel@binkley> References: <1100268764.2223.8.camel@Laptron4020.attbi.com> <20041112143059.GA1632@jadzia.bu.edu> <1100269931.6926.43.camel@binkley> <1100273623.2691.3.camel@kyrre> <1100274322.9554.10.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1100284064.4132.25.camel@kyrre> <1100288058.14648.9.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1100289379.4132.47.camel@kyrre> <1100289644.14648.13.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <1100361100.2810.4.camel@kyrre> <1100364961.3426.0.camel@binkley> Message-ID: <41965EB4.8050201@alltel.net> l?r, 13.11.2004 kl. 17.56 skrev seth vidal: > On Sat, 2004-11-13 at 16:51 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > > fre, 12.11.2004 kl. 21.00 skrev seth vidal: > > > > No but you might find that some words are found "unprofessional" for 95% > > > > of the userbase - even if they personally don't care. nteresting. > Do a nice screensaver need to contain anything that might get misjugded? But can we *please* stop this war? I AGREE--------STOP!!!! BUT please split the screensavers into "good for grandma and MY kids" and something that I wouldn't mind laughing about once in a while. I have enough trouble keeping my 5 teenage boys away from trash sites on the internet without something poping up on the screen reminding them of their hormone driven interests. I am not a prude--I work electrical construction as a forman/leadman, I allow my foster kids and adopted kids to roam on the internet to a limited extent, but they do use LINUX to do this with--like Fedora Core 2. I have taken MS Windows off of their "internet" computer and hopefully will have taken some of the "risk" from my local network from their browsing. But I do keep a log of where they go and disconnect their cat5 cable if they go or do something outside the rules of conduct--but a questionable screensaver popping up just might put a question inside very "inquireing" minds they just have to get an answer to.....thanks steve From dalive at flashmail.com Sat Nov 13 20:13:49 2004 From: dalive at flashmail.com (Arturo) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 20:13:49 +0000 Subject: FC3 CD Art Message-ID: <41966AFD.9030504@flashmail.com> Where can I find cd art (labels, sleeves, etc) for Fedora Core 3? Or at the very list good graphics to make one myself? Thanks From foolish at fedoraforum.org Sun Nov 14 00:06:02 2004 From: foolish at fedoraforum.org (Sindre Pedersen Bjordal) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 01:06:02 +0100 Subject: FC3 CD Art In-Reply-To: <41966AFD.9030504@flashmail.com> References: <41966AFD.9030504@flashmail.com> Message-ID: <1100390762.9050.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> See this thread on fedoraforum.org: http://www.fedoraforum.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1880 l?r, 13,.11.2004 kl. 20.13 +0000, skrev Arturo: > Where can I find cd art (labels, sleeves, etc) for Fedora Core 3? Or at > the very list good graphics to make one myself? > > Thanks > -- Sindre Pedersen Bjordal www.fedoraforum.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Dette er en digitalt signert meldingsdel URL: From davidz at redhat.com Sun Nov 14 02:24:57 2004 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 21:24:57 -0500 Subject: Faster login Message-ID: <1100399097.7906.21.camel@davidz> Hi, So I had a brief look at shortening startup/login time and tried disabling rhgb in favor of starting gdm early. It looks pretty promising; here are some wall-clock numbers from two runs of each configuration: | gdm_early | rhgb+gdm | ----------------------+------+-------+-------+------+ GRUB timeout | 0:00 | 0:00 | 0:00 | 0:00 | Starting udev | 0:13 | 0:13 | 0:13 | 0:14 | HW init done | 0:25 | 0:25 | 0:26 | 0:26 | rhgb visible | N/A | N/A | 0:36 | 0:35 | gdm login visible | 0:43 | 0:44 | 1:25 | 1:26 | gdm login entered | 0:52 | 0:52 | 1:31 | 1:32 | GNOME banner visible | 1:13 | 1:14 | 1:40 | 1:41 | Nautilus Background | 1:33 | 1:32 | 1:51 | 1:52 | Panel visible | 1:43 | 1:43 | 2:02 | 2:02 | HD activity off | 1:59 | 1:56 | 2:13 | 2:14 | The milestones should be pretty self evident. This is on a stock FC3 system running on a IBM T41 1.6GHz (running on AC power), 512MB RAM without any services manually disabled. In addition to starting gdm early, the modifications also start up a few services, D-BUS, HAL and NetworkManager, that is critical to the GNOME desktop. Some random thoughts/observations: - We get the gdm window 40 secs faster - The 12 secs from "Starting udev" to "HW init done" can be mostly shaved away/run in parallel - Kernel bootstrap time (13 secs) can probably be much shorter (that's what some kernel guys say anyway) - With this hack we shave twenty secs of the booting time (e.g. from GRUB until you can use your PC) but booting still feels much quicker because of the interaction with gdm in the middle (YMMV; e.g. placebo effect etc.) - rhgb+gdm spawns an X server each which is sort of stupid and unsafe (or so some Xorg guys tell me). This solution, per design, avoids doing that - we don't get the kudzu screen nor the fsck screens or any other console interactions. However, IMHO, such screens are not good UI in the first place - we should instead have GUI replacemnts that possibly notifies you when you log into the desktop session (stuff like NetworkManager and HAL alleviates such problems for networking and storage devices) - we don't get service startup notification, but, uhmm, is it really useful learning that the "Console Mouse Service" or "Printing Sub- system" have started? Instead, this stuff could just be put in gdm - it could be interesting to make /sbin/init own a D-BUS service that gdm and other stuff can query and interact with. Could also be fun to completely replace it with something a'la the SystemServices prototype that Seth did last year; links http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=4711 http://www.gnome.org/~seth/blog/2003/Sep/27 - Could be interesting to instrument the kernel with some pagefault counters etc. and attempt do more readahead on e.g. the GNOME libs (both Windows XP and Mac OS X does all that; I think we do too but I've been told it can be improved) So, anyway, I think it could be interesting to discuss starting gdm instead of rhgb. If you want to try out my crude hack, grab the file here http://people.redhat.com/davidz/newinit.sh put it in on your system as /newinit.sh, chmod a+x it and change this line /etc/inittab si::sysinit:/etc/rc.d/rc.sysinit to these two lines #si::sysinit:/etc/rc.d/rc.sysinit si::sysinit:/newinit.sh and you should be set to go! If it breaks you get to keep both pieces; e.g. try this at your own risk [1]. Cheers, David [1] :if it doesn't work you can boot your kernel with init=/bin/sh, do a 'mount -n -o remount,rw /' and edit your /etc/inittab file to point to the original sysinit. From dalive at flashmail.com Sun Nov 14 05:18:27 2004 From: dalive at flashmail.com (Arturo) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 05:18:27 +0000 Subject: Faster login In-Reply-To: <1100399097.7906.21.camel@davidz> References: <1100399097.7906.21.camel@davidz> Message-ID: <4196EAA3.2050407@flashmail.com> David Zeuthen wrote: >Hi, > >So I had a brief look at shortening startup/login time and tried >disabling rhgb in favor of starting gdm early. It looks pretty >promising; here are some wall-clock numbers from two runs of each >configuration: > > | gdm_early | rhgb+gdm | > ----------------------+------+-------+-------+------+ > GRUB timeout | 0:00 | 0:00 | 0:00 | 0:00 | > Starting udev | 0:13 | 0:13 | 0:13 | 0:14 | > HW init done | 0:25 | 0:25 | 0:26 | 0:26 | > rhgb visible | N/A | N/A | 0:36 | 0:35 | > gdm login visible | 0:43 | 0:44 | 1:25 | 1:26 | > gdm login entered | 0:52 | 0:52 | 1:31 | 1:32 | > GNOME banner visible | 1:13 | 1:14 | 1:40 | 1:41 | > Nautilus Background | 1:33 | 1:32 | 1:51 | 1:52 | > Panel visible | 1:43 | 1:43 | 2:02 | 2:02 | > HD activity off | 1:59 | 1:56 | 2:13 | 2:14 | > >The milestones should be pretty self evident. This is on a stock FC3 >system running on a IBM T41 1.6GHz (running on AC power), 512MB RAM >without any services manually disabled. > >In addition to starting gdm early, the modifications also start up a few >services, D-BUS, HAL and NetworkManager, that is critical to the GNOME >desktop. > >Some random thoughts/observations: > > - We get the gdm window 40 secs faster > > - The 12 secs from "Starting udev" to "HW init done" can be mostly > shaved away/run in parallel > > - Kernel bootstrap time (13 secs) can probably be much shorter > (that's what some kernel guys say anyway) > > - With this hack we shave twenty secs of the booting time (e.g. from > GRUB until you can use your PC) but booting still feels much quicker > because of the interaction with gdm in the middle (YMMV; e.g. placebo > effect etc.) > > - rhgb+gdm spawns an X server each which is sort of stupid and unsafe > (or so some Xorg guys tell me). This solution, per design, avoids > doing that > > - we don't get the kudzu screen nor the fsck screens or any other > console interactions. However, IMHO, such screens are not good UI > in the first place - we should instead have GUI replacemnts that > possibly notifies you when you log into the desktop session (stuff > like NetworkManager and HAL alleviates such problems for networking > and storage devices) > > - we don't get service startup notification, but, uhmm, is it really > useful learning that the "Console Mouse Service" or "Printing Sub- > system" have started? Instead, this stuff could just be put in gdm > > - it could be interesting to make /sbin/init own a D-BUS service that > gdm and other stuff can query and interact with. Could also be fun > to completely replace it with something a'la the SystemServices > prototype that Seth did last year; links > > http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=4711 > http://www.gnome.org/~seth/blog/2003/Sep/27 > > - Could be interesting to instrument the kernel with some pagefault > counters etc. and attempt do more readahead on e.g. the GNOME libs > (both Windows XP and Mac OS X does all that; I think we do too but > I've been told it can be improved) > >So, anyway, I think it could be interesting to discuss starting gdm >instead of rhgb. If you want to try out my crude hack, grab the file >here > > http://people.redhat.com/davidz/newinit.sh > >put it in on your system as /newinit.sh, chmod a+x it and change this >line /etc/inittab > > si::sysinit:/etc/rc.d/rc.sysinit > >to these two lines > > #si::sysinit:/etc/rc.d/rc.sysinit > si::sysinit:/newinit.sh > >and you should be set to go! If it breaks you get to keep both pieces; >e.g. try this at your own risk [1]. > >Cheers, >David > >[1] :if it doesn't work you can boot your kernel with init=/bin/sh, do a >'mount -n -o remount,rw /' and edit your /etc/inittab file to point to >the original sysinit. > > > You're ideas sound very promising, as I myself have a strong opinion as to how things should be, however I do not yet have the expertise to implement them myself, and other seem to think such too complicated. You're ideas however are a good step. I would just like to raise to issues. 1) I am all for removing outputs of kudzu, fsck and init.d, esp. this makes potential convertees somewhat scared to put it one way. However I would hope that just as Fedora provides a 'Details' option, a 'Show' option should be enabled to allow output from these things. 2) I am all for speeding up the system starup/login (although I have a 750 Mhz Intel and it really doesn't bother me at all), but would this optimization be a Gnome only perk? Or would this be equally or at least similiarly beneficial to kdm (KDE). Thanks From alexl at stofanet.dk Sun Nov 14 13:01:19 2004 From: alexl at stofanet.dk (Alex Thomsen Leth) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 14:01:19 +0100 Subject: Faster login In-Reply-To: <1100399097.7906.21.camel@davidz> References: <1100399097.7906.21.camel@davidz> Message-ID: <1100437280.4223.1.camel@scar.lion> great job. gdm shows really fast. but of course it takes a while for login. l?r, 13 11 2004 kl. 21:24 -0500, skrev David Zeuthen: > Hi, > > So I had a brief look at shortening startup/login time and tried > disabling rhgb in favor of starting gdm early. It looks pretty > promising; here are some wall-clock numbers from two runs of each > configuration: > > | gdm_early | rhgb+gdm | > ----------------------+------+-------+-------+------+ > GRUB timeout | 0:00 | 0:00 | 0:00 | 0:00 | > Starting udev | 0:13 | 0:13 | 0:13 | 0:14 | > HW init done | 0:25 | 0:25 | 0:26 | 0:26 | > rhgb visible | N/A | N/A | 0:36 | 0:35 | > gdm login visible | 0:43 | 0:44 | 1:25 | 1:26 | > gdm login entered | 0:52 | 0:52 | 1:31 | 1:32 | > GNOME banner visible | 1:13 | 1:14 | 1:40 | 1:41 | > Nautilus Background | 1:33 | 1:32 | 1:51 | 1:52 | > Panel visible | 1:43 | 1:43 | 2:02 | 2:02 | > HD activity off | 1:59 | 1:56 | 2:13 | 2:14 | > > The milestones should be pretty self evident. This is on a stock FC3 > system running on a IBM T41 1.6GHz (running on AC power), 512MB RAM > without any services manually disabled. > > In addition to starting gdm early, the modifications also start up a few > services, D-BUS, HAL and NetworkManager, that is critical to the GNOME > desktop. > > Some random thoughts/observations: > > - We get the gdm window 40 secs faster > > - The 12 secs from "Starting udev" to "HW init done" can be mostly > shaved away/run in parallel > > - Kernel bootstrap time (13 secs) can probably be much shorter > (that's what some kernel guys say anyway) > > - With this hack we shave twenty secs of the booting time (e.g. from > GRUB until you can use your PC) but booting still feels much quicker > because of the interaction with gdm in the middle (YMMV; e.g. placebo > effect etc.) > > - rhgb+gdm spawns an X server each which is sort of stupid and unsafe > (or so some Xorg guys tell me). This solution, per design, avoids > doing that > > - we don't get the kudzu screen nor the fsck screens or any other > console interactions. However, IMHO, such screens are not good UI > in the first place - we should instead have GUI replacemnts that > possibly notifies you when you log into the desktop session (stuff > like NetworkManager and HAL alleviates such problems for networking > and storage devices) > > - we don't get service startup notification, but, uhmm, is it really > useful learning that the "Console Mouse Service" or "Printing Sub- > system" have started? Instead, this stuff could just be put in gdm > > - it could be interesting to make /sbin/init own a D-BUS service that > gdm and other stuff can query and interact with. Could also be fun > to completely replace it with something a'la the SystemServices > prototype that Seth did last year; links > > http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=4711 > http://www.gnome.org/~seth/blog/2003/Sep/27 > > - Could be interesting to instrument the kernel with some pagefault > counters etc. and attempt do more readahead on e.g. the GNOME libs > (both Windows XP and Mac OS X does all that; I think we do too but > I've been told it can be improved) > > So, anyway, I think it could be interesting to discuss starting gdm > instead of rhgb. If you want to try out my crude hack, grab the file > here > > http://people.redhat.com/davidz/newinit.sh > > put it in on your system as /newinit.sh, chmod a+x it and change this > line /etc/inittab > > si::sysinit:/etc/rc.d/rc.sysinit > > to these two lines > > #si::sysinit:/etc/rc.d/rc.sysinit > si::sysinit:/newinit.sh > > and you should be set to go! If it breaks you get to keep both pieces; > e.g. try this at your own risk [1]. > > Cheers, > David > > [1] :if it doesn't work you can boot your kernel with init=/bin/sh, do a > 'mount -n -o remount,rw /' and edit your /etc/inittab file to point to > the original sysinit. > > From martinalderson at gmail.com Sun Nov 14 13:28:00 2004 From: martinalderson at gmail.com (Martin Alderson) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 13:28:00 +0000 Subject: Faster login In-Reply-To: <1100437280.4223.1.camel@scar.lion> References: <1100399097.7906.21.camel@davidz> <1100437280.4223.1.camel@scar.lion> Message-ID: <3d8600780411140528ef4e2d1@mail.gmail.com> > > Hi, > > > > So I had a brief look at shortening startup/login time and tried > > disabling rhgb in favor of starting gdm early. It looks pretty > > promising; here are some wall-clock numbers from two runs of each > > configuration Is it possible to have a very simple boot screen, ala Windows XP and MacOSX? It should be animated so that people can see if the computer is frozen? Basically it would be very good if as soon as you went into grub, about 2 seconds later you had a graphical boot screen. Can this be done without using X? Is there some sort of really simple X server-style application that could do this? From davidz at redhat.com Sun Nov 14 16:26:48 2004 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 11:26:48 -0500 Subject: Faster login In-Reply-To: <4196EAA3.2050407@flashmail.com> References: <1100399097.7906.21.camel@davidz> <4196EAA3.2050407@flashmail.com> Message-ID: <1100449608.5217.1.camel@davidz> On Sun, 2004-11-14 at 05:18 +0000, Arturo wrote: > 2) I am all for speeding up the system starup/login (although I have a > 750 Mhz Intel and it really doesn't bother me at all), but would this > optimization be a Gnome only perk? Or would this be equally or at least > similiarly beneficial to kdm (KDE). > I see no reason this should be GNOME specific at all; right now my hack just starts gdm, that could easily well be kdm, xdm or whatever. Cheers, David From davidz at redhat.com Sun Nov 14 16:28:46 2004 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 11:28:46 -0500 Subject: Faster login In-Reply-To: <3d8600780411140528ef4e2d1@mail.gmail.com> References: <1100399097.7906.21.camel@davidz> <1100437280.4223.1.camel@scar.lion> <3d8600780411140528ef4e2d1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1100449726.5217.4.camel@davidz> On Sun, 2004-11-14 at 13:28 +0000, Martin Alderson wrote: > Is it possible to have a very simple boot screen, ala Windows XP and > MacOSX? It should be animated so that people can see if the computer > is frozen? > > Basically it would be very good if as soon as you went into grub, > about 2 seconds later you had a graphical boot screen. > I personally think this would be nice, yeah. > Can this be done without using X? Is there some sort of really simple > X server-style application that could do this? > I think there are kernel patches out there for doing this (though the framebuffer device) although I'm not sure if they are upstream nor what state they are in; I suppose the kernel dudes would know. Cheers, David From hp at redhat.com Mon Nov 15 00:58:51 2004 From: hp at redhat.com (Havoc Pennington) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 19:58:51 -0500 Subject: Faster login In-Reply-To: <1100449726.5217.4.camel@davidz> References: <1100399097.7906.21.camel@davidz> <1100437280.4223.1.camel@scar.lion> <3d8600780411140528ef4e2d1@mail.gmail.com> <1100449726.5217.4.camel@davidz> Message-ID: <1100480332.4292.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2004-11-14 at 11:28 -0500, David Zeuthen wrote: > > > Can this be done without using X? Is there some sort of really simple > > X server-style application that could do this? > > > > I think there are kernel patches out there for doing this (though the > framebuffer device) although I'm not sure if they are upstream nor what > state they are in; I suppose the kernel dudes would know. IIRC the reason we did rhgb with X is that the kernel guys couldn't come up with any other approach that they would accept (or at least any other that they would accept and that was feasible to implement) But yeah, with these gdm results rhgb is looking like a bad idea to me; as soon as we can get up rhgb, we could get up gdm, and so we may as well jump straight to gdm and possibly extend gdm to display boot progress/errors. It might still be useful to get a non-X graphical display up earlier, before gdm/rhgb can start, though. Depending on how quickly we can get gdm up after a couple solid rounds of hacking on the boot time problem. Havoc From davidz at redhat.com Mon Nov 15 02:05:24 2004 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 21:05:24 -0500 Subject: Faster login In-Reply-To: <1100480332.4292.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1100399097.7906.21.camel@davidz> <1100437280.4223.1.camel@scar.lion> <3d8600780411140528ef4e2d1@mail.gmail.com> <1100449726.5217.4.camel@davidz> <1100480332.4292.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1100484324.4233.43.camel@davidz> On Sun, 2004-11-14 at 19:58 -0500, Havoc Pennington wrote: > IIRC the reason we did rhgb with X is that the kernel guys couldn't come > up with any other approach that they would accept (or at least any other > that they would accept and that was feasible to implement) > > But yeah, with these gdm results rhgb is looking like a bad idea to me; > as soon as we can get up rhgb, we could get up gdm, and so we may as > well jump straight to gdm and possibly extend gdm to display boot > progress/errors. > > It might still be useful to get a non-X graphical display up earlier, > before gdm/rhgb can start, though. Depending on how quickly we can get > gdm up after a couple solid rounds of hacking on the boot time problem. > I just had a look at http://www.bootsplash.org/ and it appears that these patches do a lot of configurable stuff insofar that one needs to store the configuration and graphical assets in the initrd. This, IMO, pretty much defeats the purpose since it takes time for the kernel to boot (slightly more than 10 secs right now). I'm not sure the assets can be built into the kernel instead of using the initrd. Ideally, IMO, all we need is a screen with a solid background colour (say, the same colour as in the gdm default theme) along with a small logo (e.g. a Red Fedora) and perhaps the twirling animation from rhgb. I'm pretty sure we don't need any progress bar and textual messages as we want gdm to appear within 10-20 seconds anyway (cf. my initial mail it's 43 seconds with my hack and 85 without the hack). So, in fact, if I boot my laptop with the kernel option vga=0x0317 (1024x768x24), then right after grub, I get the Tux log in the top along with scrolling kernel messages. Almost there.. So, I wonder how much work there is in taking a static background colour along with a centered logo, disable the messages from the kernel and make the animation.. animate. I also wonder if something like this could be accepted into the upstream kernel. Obviously, said assets (Fedora logo, animations etc.) will need to be compiled into the kernel proper as we need them before the initrd but, hey, everything has a price (the tux logo is already in there, so..). We would probably also need to select a more safe resolution e.g. max 800x600x256 or something in order to not destroy any monitors out there. Cheers, David From katzj at redhat.com Mon Nov 15 02:22:03 2004 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 21:22:03 -0500 Subject: Faster login In-Reply-To: <1100484324.4233.43.camel@davidz> References: <1100399097.7906.21.camel@davidz> <1100437280.4223.1.camel@scar.lion> <3d8600780411140528ef4e2d1@mail.gmail.com> <1100449726.5217.4.camel@davidz> <1100480332.4292.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100484324.4233.43.camel@davidz> Message-ID: <1100485323.15043.0.camel@bree.local.net> On Sun, 2004-11-14 at 21:05 -0500, David Zeuthen wrote: > Obviously, said assets (Fedora logo, animations etc.) will need to be > compiled into the kernel proper as we need them before the initrd but, > hey, everything has a price (the tux logo is already in there, so..). We > would probably also need to select a more safe resolution e.g. max > 800x600x256 or something in order to not destroy any monitors out there. ... and fix bugs which crop up when you're using a framebuffer and X at the same time. I'd love to say they don't exist, but I end up telling people to use 'linux nofb' to fix problems they encounter in the installer far too often :( Jeremy From notting at redhat.com Mon Nov 15 05:01:24 2004 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 00:01:24 -0500 Subject: Faster login In-Reply-To: <1100399097.7906.21.camel@davidz> References: <1100399097.7906.21.camel@davidz> Message-ID: <20041115050124.GB24017@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> David Zeuthen (davidz at redhat.com) said: > - With this hack we shave twenty secs of the booting time (e.g. from > GRUB until you can use your PC) but booting still feels much quicker > because of the interaction with gdm in the middle (YMMV; e.g. placebo > effect etc.) I'm guessing most of this is the lag in starting up RHGB and then killing it to start a second X server. But ICBW. > - we don't get the kudzu screen nor the fsck screens or any other > console interactions. However, IMHO, such screens are not good UI > in the first place - we should instead have GUI replacemnts that > possibly notifies you when you log into the desktop session (stuff > like NetworkManager and HAL alleviates such problems for networking > and storage devices) An error after you've logged in telling you 'oh, btw, your FS has errors and is screwed'? I'm assuming this is not what you mean. The kudzu stuff should be fixed (in general, everything should just be configured w/o dialogs; anything that can't be configured can wait), but filesystem errors need to take precedence over getting you logged in quickly. Of course, in your example, you're not starting anything until after fsck has long since finished. Which is probably the route to go. > - we don't get service startup notification, but, uhmm, is it really > useful learning that the "Console Mouse Service" or "Printing Sub- > system" have started? Instead, this stuff could just be put in gdm It should mainly just be logged. /etc/rc can either throw crap on dbus, or you could just read the syslogs. If you're *really* bored, you can pop up the old-school MacOS icons for each service. But the rhgb-style 'randomly increment the progress bar at predefined services X, Y, and Z has got to go.' > si::sysinit:/newinit.sh > > and you should be set to go! If it breaks you get to keep both pieces; > e.g. try this at your own risk [1]. xinetd? Whatever for? Looking at integrating this stuff in a maintainable manner, the following needs done: a) move a chunk of this crap to the root fs - or - make sure any networked /usr is mounted b) start making 'fundamental' services non-optional (things like syslog, dbus, etc.) c) take out xfs and shoot it. The X server should be fixed so that it can handle startup without it, and any old-school fonts will only be available once xfs starts up at some point later. Bill From notting at redhat.com Mon Nov 15 05:03:46 2004 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 00:03:46 -0500 Subject: Faster login In-Reply-To: <1100484324.4233.43.camel@davidz> References: <1100399097.7906.21.camel@davidz> <1100437280.4223.1.camel@scar.lion> <3d8600780411140528ef4e2d1@mail.gmail.com> <1100449726.5217.4.camel@davidz> <1100480332.4292.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100484324.4233.43.camel@davidz> Message-ID: <20041115050346.GC24017@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> David Zeuthen (davidz at redhat.com) said: > So, in fact, if I boot my laptop with the kernel option vga=0x0317 > (1024x768x24), then right after grub, I get the Tux log in the top along > with scrolling kernel messages. Almost there.. The question here is... a) do you want to use vga16fb/vesafb everywhere (not portable to all arches) b) do you want to change the boot model depending on how supported someone's particular card is for fb mode in the kernel? Not sure how useful this is just for hiding some kernel spew. :) Bill From davidz at redhat.com Mon Nov 15 15:41:26 2004 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:41:26 -0500 Subject: Faster login In-Reply-To: <20041115050346.GC24017@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1100399097.7906.21.camel@davidz> <1100437280.4223.1.camel@scar.lion> <3d8600780411140528ef4e2d1@mail.gmail.com> <1100449726.5217.4.camel@davidz> <1100480332.4292.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100484324.4233.43.camel@davidz> <20041115050346.GC24017@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1100533286.10015.10.camel@davidz> On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 00:03 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote: > David Zeuthen (davidz at redhat.com) said: > > So, in fact, if I boot my laptop with the kernel option vga=0x0317 > > (1024x768x24), then right after grub, I get the Tux log in the top along > > with scrolling kernel messages. Almost there.. > > The question here is... > > a) do you want to use vga16fb/vesafb everywhere (not portable to all > arches) Well, if it's there we might as well use it. > b) do you want to change the boot model depending on how supported > someone's particular card is for fb mode in the kernel? > > Not sure how useful this is just for hiding some kernel spew. :) > Ideally the time from grub to gdm should be < 10 secs anyway, so a blank screen without progress bars will do I guess. I guess Seth, Bryan or Diana can tell us why kernel spew is bad from a UI point of view. They might even tell us we need the progress bar anyway, dunno. Btw, it is my understanding that fb, drm and X (they all touch the hardware ) might merge in the future (which could give us oops() on top of X as in e.g. Solaris IIRC). Possibly far away. I could be wrong though. Ideally, it would be good if we could just setup the monitor to do the target resolution whenever the kernel boots and X will just take over from there. I'm sure some of the X guys can enlighten us here. Cheers, David From davidz at redhat.com Mon Nov 15 15:48:43 2004 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 10:48:43 -0500 Subject: Faster login In-Reply-To: <20041115050124.GB24017@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1100399097.7906.21.camel@davidz> <20041115050124.GB24017@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1100533723.10015.18.camel@davidz> On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 00:01 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote: > David Zeuthen (davidz at redhat.com) said: > > - With this hack we shave twenty secs of the booting time (e.g. from > > GRUB until you can use your PC) but booting still feels much quicker > > because of the interaction with gdm in the middle (YMMV; e.g. placebo > > effect etc.) > > I'm guessing most of this is the lag in starting up RHGB and then > killing it to start a second X server. But ICBW. > Dunno; hopefully someone will do the boot time poster framework that Own proposed on fedora-devel. Until then, I'm not sure we have enough hard data to tell. > > - we don't get the kudzu screen nor the fsck screens or any other > > console interactions. However, IMHO, such screens are not good UI > > in the first place - we should instead have GUI replacemnts that > > possibly notifies you when you log into the desktop session (stuff > > like NetworkManager and HAL alleviates such problems for networking > > and storage devices) > > An error after you've logged in telling you 'oh, btw, your FS has errors > and is screwed'? > > I'm assuming this is not what you mean. > > The kudzu stuff should be fixed (in general, everything should > just be configured w/o dialogs; anything that can't be configured > can wait), but filesystem errors need to take precedence over > getting you logged in quickly. > Yes. > Of course, in your example, you're not starting anything until > after fsck has long since finished. Which is probably the route > to go. > I think so, it's pretty fast in the laptop case anyway; couple of seconds. > > - we don't get service startup notification, but, uhmm, is it really > > useful learning that the "Console Mouse Service" or "Printing Sub- > > system" have started? Instead, this stuff could just be put in gdm > > It should mainly just be logged. /etc/rc can either throw crap on dbus, > or you could just read the syslogs. > > If you're *really* bored, you can pop up the old-school MacOS icons > for each service. Heh :-) > But the rhgb-style 'randomly increment the progress > bar at predefined services X, Y, and Z has got to go.' > > > si::sysinit:/newinit.sh > > > > and you should be set to go! If it breaks you get to keep both pieces; > > e.g. try this at your own risk [1]. > > xinetd? Whatever for? > Checking that someone read the changes? :-) - no, seriously, a moment of weakness from my side; I don't know why I put that in, sorry. > Looking at integrating this stuff in a maintainable manner, the > following needs done: > > a) move a chunk of this crap to the root fs > - or - > make sure any networked /usr is mounted Well, I suppose that starting gdm early is only really useful for laptops. If you have a networked /usr the odds are that this is a desktop box that is always on, so why not just postponing launching the stuff from /usr you need? (perhaps a reworked init system could have the dependency '/usr is mounted'). > b) start making 'fundamental' services non-optional (things like syslog, > dbus, etc.) Right. > c) take out xfs and shoot it. The X server should be fixed so that it > can handle startup without it, and any old-school fonts will only > be available once xfs starts up at some point later. > Indeed. Cheers, David From crandall at redhat.com Mon Nov 15 17:07:11 2004 From: crandall at redhat.com (Ken Crandall) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 09:07:11 -0800 Subject: Faster login In-Reply-To: <20041115050124.GB24017@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1100399097.7906.21.camel@davidz> <20041115050124.GB24017@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1100538431.22682.8.camel@magellan.laptop> On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 00:01 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote: > If you're *really* bored, you can pop up the old-school MacOS icons > for each service. But the rhgb-style 'randomly increment the progress > bar at predefined services X, Y, and Z has got to go.' This actually has lots of merits. If we put icons up for each service we started, this could start during the GDM login (across the bottom, lets say) and if the user logs-in before we're done starting services, the icons could be preserved and continued during the session init screen (where there are icons going across the bottom of the GNOME/KDE login banners) and the only "wait" point would be until the session init is done. That way you could have "needs attention" GUI items run/addressed first- thing. Ken -- Ken Crandall Red Hat, Inc. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From notting at redhat.com Mon Nov 15 17:58:15 2004 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:58:15 -0500 Subject: Faster login In-Reply-To: <1100533723.10015.18.camel@davidz> References: <1100399097.7906.21.camel@davidz> <20041115050124.GB24017@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100533723.10015.18.camel@davidz> Message-ID: <20041115175815.GG29670@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> David Zeuthen (davidz at redhat.com) said: > On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 00:01 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > David Zeuthen (davidz at redhat.com) said: > > > - With this hack we shave twenty secs of the booting time (e.g. from > > > GRUB until you can use your PC) but booting still feels much quicker > > > because of the interaction with gdm in the middle (YMMV; e.g. placebo > > > effect etc.) > > > > I'm guessing most of this is the lag in starting up RHGB and then > > killing it to start a second X server. But ICBW. > > > > Dunno; hopefully someone will do the boot time poster framework that Own > proposed on fedora-devel. Until then, I'm not sure we have enough hard > data to tell. Well, it's an obvious time savings point that starting the X server once is faster than starting the X server, killing it, and starting it again. It's just a matter of how much... :) Bill From mike at navi.cx Mon Nov 15 21:07:21 2004 From: mike at navi.cx (Mike Hearn) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 21:07:21 +0000 Subject: Faster login References: <1100399097.7906.21.camel@davidz> <20041115050124.GB24017@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100533723.10015.18.camel@davidz> <20041115175815.GG29670@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:58:15 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Well, it's an obvious time savings point that starting the X server > once is faster than starting the X server, killing it, and starting > it again. It's just a matter of how much... :) This is one of the things I always hated about rhgb the most (still used it though ;) The nVidia binary drivers take ages to initialize, as in 5+ seconds on my system: doing this twice just felt incredibly wasteful and definitely slowed things down. Of course, starting services I don't need/want like cups doesn't help either ... From veillard at redhat.com Mon Nov 15 21:19:43 2004 From: veillard at redhat.com (Daniel Veillard) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 16:19:43 -0500 Subject: Faster login In-Reply-To: <20041115175815.GG29670@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <1100399097.7906.21.camel@davidz> <20041115050124.GB24017@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100533723.10015.18.camel@davidz> <20041115175815.GG29670@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20041115211942.GE16354@redhat.com> On Mon, Nov 15, 2004 at 12:58:15PM -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote: > David Zeuthen (davidz at redhat.com) said: > > On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 00:01 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > > David Zeuthen (davidz at redhat.com) said: > > > > - With this hack we shave twenty secs of the booting time (e.g. from > > > > GRUB until you can use your PC) but booting still feels much quicker > > > > because of the interaction with gdm in the middle (YMMV; e.g. placebo > > > > effect etc.) > > > > > > I'm guessing most of this is the lag in starting up RHGB and then > > > killing it to start a second X server. But ICBW. > > > > > > > Dunno; hopefully someone will do the boot time poster framework that Own > > proposed on fedora-devel. Until then, I'm not sure we have enough hard > > data to tell. > > Well, it's an obvious time savings point that starting the X server > once is faster than starting the X server, killing it, and starting > it again. It's just a matter of how much... :) then we need an x.org x11 able to start from a read-only filesystem :-) Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat Desktop team http://redhat.com/ veillard at redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From veillard at redhat.com Mon Nov 15 21:21:29 2004 From: veillard at redhat.com (Daniel Veillard) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 16:21:29 -0500 Subject: Faster login In-Reply-To: References: <1100399097.7906.21.camel@davidz> <20041115050124.GB24017@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100533723.10015.18.camel@davidz> <20041115175815.GG29670@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20041115212129.GF16354@redhat.com> On Mon, Nov 15, 2004 at 09:07:21PM +0000, Mike Hearn wrote: > On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:58:15 -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > Well, it's an obvious time savings point that starting the X server > > once is faster than starting the X server, killing it, and starting > > it again. It's just a matter of how much... :) > > This is one of the things I always hated about rhgb the most (still used > it though ;) > > The nVidia binary drivers take ages to initialize, as in 5+ seconds on my > system: doing this twice just felt incredibly wasteful and definitely > slowed things down. try using an /etc/rhgb/xorg.conf without the nVidia binary drivers, this may work and may be faster, Daniel -- Daniel Veillard | Red Hat Desktop team http://redhat.com/ veillard at redhat.com | libxml GNOME XML XSLT toolkit http://xmlsoft.org/ http://veillard.com/ | Rpmfind RPM search engine http://rpmfind.net/ From behdad at cs.toronto.edu Mon Nov 15 21:22:46 2004 From: behdad at cs.toronto.edu (Behdad Esfahbod) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 16:22:46 -0500 Subject: Faster login In-Reply-To: References: <1100399097.7906.21.camel@davidz> <20041115050124.GB24017@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100533723.10015.18.camel@davidz> <20041115175815.GG29670@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Nov 2004, Mike Hearn wrote: > Of course, starting services I don't need/want like cups doesn't help > either ... Now that somebody brought up the issue, this is one of the most unattentioned parts of FC IMO. Fedora Core is easy enough to install that anybody with a small knowledge of Linux can simply handle it well, but something nobody thinks about after installation is to check the running services, mostly because many people assume that the right set of services are running. But after installing, I've got to go uncheck more than half of default services. For example the Japanese stuff (don't know about FC3, but were in older versions), portmap stuff, humm, can't remember right now, but there are lot's of services that I've never chosen at install time and are just there to slow down the boot process, while chances are I never use them at all. I agree that if one selects PostgreSQL to be installed, bringing it up by default is the better choice, but not many other services. Guess all I'm asking for is some kind of WinXP-like "start here" or tips like "configure services you need by running system-config-services"... after installation. No, I'm almost sure I'm not asking for more steps in firstboot :-). It turned out like too much random thoughts, Sorry, --behdad From kyrre at solution-forge.net Mon Nov 15 21:40:32 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 22:40:32 +0100 Subject: Faster login In-Reply-To: References: <1100399097.7906.21.camel@davidz> <20041115050124.GB24017@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100533723.10015.18.camel@davidz> <20041115175815.GG29670@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1100554832.29000.0.camel@kyrre> man, 15.11.2004 kl. 22.22 skrev Behdad Esfahbod: > On Mon, 15 Nov 2004, Mike Hearn wrote: > > > Of course, starting services I don't need/want like cups doesn't help > > either ... > > Now that somebody brought up the issue, this is one of the most > unattentioned parts of FC IMO. Fedora Core is easy enough to > install that anybody with a small knowledge of Linux can simply > handle it well, but something nobody thinks about after > installation is to check the running services, mostly because > many people assume that the right set of services are running. > But after installing, I've got to go uncheck more than half of > default services. For example the Japanese stuff (don't know > about FC3, but were in older versions), portmap stuff, humm, > can't remember right now, but there are lot's of services that > I've never chosen at install time and are just there to slow down > the boot process, while chances are I never use them at all. > > I agree that if one selects PostgreSQL to be installed, bringing > it up by default is the better choice, but not many other > services. Guess all I'm asking for is some kind of WinXP-like > "start here" or tips like "configure services you need by running > system-config-services"... after installation. No, I'm almost > sure I'm not asking for more steps in firstboot :-). > > It turned out like too much random thoughts, Sorry, > --behdad I *think* most people would be very, very angry if you killed their ability to print... From dalive at flashmail.com Mon Nov 15 23:03:56 2004 From: dalive at flashmail.com (Arturo) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 23:03:56 +0000 Subject: Faster login In-Reply-To: References: <1100399097.7906.21.camel@davidz> <20041115050124.GB24017@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100533723.10015.18.camel@davidz> <20041115175815.GG29670@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <419935DC.6060407@flashmail.com> Behdad Esfahbod wrote: >On Mon, 15 Nov 2004, Mike Hearn wrote: > > > >>Of course, starting services I don't need/want like cups doesn't help >>either ... >> >> > >Now that somebody brought up the issue, this is one of the most >unattentioned parts of FC IMO. Fedora Core is easy enough to >install that anybody with a small knowledge of Linux can simply >handle it well, but something nobody thinks about after >installation is to check the running services, mostly because >many people assume that the right set of services are running. >But after installing, I've got to go uncheck more than half of >default services. For example the Japanese stuff (don't know >about FC3, but were in older versions), portmap stuff, humm, >can't remember right now, but there are lot's of services that >I've never chosen at install time and are just there to slow down >the boot process, while chances are I never use them at all. > >I agree that if one selects PostgreSQL to be installed, bringing >it up by default is the better choice, but not many other >services. Guess all I'm asking for is some kind of WinXP-like >"start here" or tips like "configure services you need by running >system-config-services"... after installation. No, I'm almost >sure I'm not asking for more steps in firstboot :-). > >It turned out like too much random thoughts, Sorry, >--behdad > > > I believe this, and many other issues might be minimized by a more inovative installer. I have never used or seen a Mac, farless to have installed one. And I have not used all the distros out there, so forgive me if this has been implemented somewhere else. If think setting up the installer, Anaconda if I'm not mistaken, as follows might help alot, Selection of user level (computer skills) - Expert Fedora User - Full customization (pc setup type, partion setup, hardware, packages, etc) - Power User - Educated guesses to be made by Anaconda of setup, with ability to customize generated setup (in an itemized, non-linear way) - Novice/First-Time User - Anaconda generated/guesses an appropriate setup asking only for localized information, window manager would give a sort of "Welcome to Fedora walkthrough" - Use istall preferences from install media (usb, floppy, ftp, etc) - Anaconda reads a file (possibly an xml file) which defines all the information it needs with the option to make changed after loading. Based on this information, Anaconda would then only isntall what is necessary. For example, a First Time user in America won't need an ftp server, japaneese fonts, ssh server, etc, installed by default. This would give the ability to better lock down fresh installations so that people new to Fedora don't have unnecessary stuff that they will never need loading, but enthusists could have as much cutting edge as they may need. Such information I'm sure could be used in many other ways. Just an idea I've had for awhile, I'm sure many will consider this to be not worth the trouble. But consider the possibilities such would add to the user experience. Peace Arthur From hp at redhat.com Mon Nov 15 23:06:46 2004 From: hp at redhat.com (Havoc Pennington) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:06:46 -0500 Subject: Faster login In-Reply-To: <1100554832.29000.0.camel@kyrre> References: <1100399097.7906.21.camel@davidz> <20041115050124.GB24017@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100533723.10015.18.camel@davidz> <20041115175815.GG29670@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100554832.29000.0.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: <1100560006.12102.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 22:40 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > > I *think* most people would be very, very angry if you killed their > ability to print... > Of course, we shouldn't need a cups daemon for client-only machines in many cases - we can just talk IPP to the print server directly from the apps. You only need the spooler for a physically attached printer. Similar with email, apps can connect to the server instead of spooling locally first. Havoc From walters at redhat.com Mon Nov 15 23:14:04 2004 From: walters at redhat.com (Colin Walters) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 18:14:04 -0500 Subject: Faster login In-Reply-To: <1100560006.12102.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1100399097.7906.21.camel@davidz> <20041115050124.GB24017@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100533723.10015.18.camel@davidz> <20041115175815.GG29670@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100554832.29000.0.camel@kyrre> <1100560006.12102.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1100560444.5535.23.camel@nexus.verbum.private> On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 18:06 -0500, Havoc Pennington wrote: > On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 22:40 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > > > > I *think* most people would be very, very angry if you killed their > > ability to print... > > > > Of course, we shouldn't need a cups daemon for client-only machines in > many cases Well, right now the CUPS server is also used to pick up IPP broadcasts. It would be nice to have an IPP notification only daemon for security reasons too though. From stephan.matthiesen at gmx.de Tue Nov 16 12:59:29 2004 From: stephan.matthiesen at gmx.de (Stephan Matthiesen) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 12:59:29 +0000 Subject: Faster login In-Reply-To: References: <1100399097.7906.21.camel@davidz> <20041115175815.GG29670@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <200411161259.29896.stephan.matthiesen@gmx.de> Hi, Am Montag, 15. November 2004 21:07 schrieb Mike Hearn: > Of course, starting services I don't need/want like cups doesn't help > either ... Suggestion: Most people probably need cups, but not right from the start (usually you first edit a document etc.) What I do: I disabled all services that are not essential for login. Then I have a batch script that starts the rest when the load goes down, i.e. after login. So acpid, crond, cups, mysql, httpd, privoxy, wine ... get started while I'm already working. (It's a laptop, so I need to boot/shutdown several times a day; I need mysql and httpd for some of my databases). This way I saved something like 40 seconds startup time. It would be nice if there was a recognized/official way to start non-essential services after the login. It could be a simple modification of the existing links in /etc/rc5.d/, like: S85httpd starts http immediately L85httpd starts it later as a batch job. There should also information which services depend on each other, and which are needed for X. Cheers Stephan From mclasen at redhat.com Tue Nov 16 13:38:47 2004 From: mclasen at redhat.com (Matthias Clasen) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 08:38:47 -0500 Subject: Faster login In-Reply-To: <1100560444.5535.23.camel@nexus.verbum.private> References: <1100399097.7906.21.camel@davidz> <20041115050124.GB24017@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100533723.10015.18.camel@davidz> <20041115175815.GG29670@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100554832.29000.0.camel@kyrre> <1100560006.12102.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100560444.5535.23.camel@nexus.verbum.private> Message-ID: <1100612327.28209.5.camel@golem.boston.redhat.com> On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 18:14, Colin Walters wrote: > On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 18:06 -0500, Havoc Pennington wrote: > > On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 22:40 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > > > > > > I *think* most people would be very, very angry if you killed their > > > ability to print... > > > > > > > Of course, we shouldn't need a cups daemon for client-only machines in > > many cases > > Well, right now the CUPS server is also used to pick up IPP broadcasts. > It would be nice to have an IPP notification only daemon for security > reasons too though. > Regardless whether we use cupsd or a lighter replacement daemon, there should be no need to keep the user from logging in until that service is there... Matthias From kyrre at solution-forge.net Tue Nov 16 19:39:40 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:39:40 +0100 Subject: Faster login - Cups security In-Reply-To: <1100560444.5535.23.camel@nexus.verbum.private> References: <1100399097.7906.21.camel@davidz> <20041115050124.GB24017@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100533723.10015.18.camel@davidz> <20041115175815.GG29670@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1100554832.29000.0.camel@kyrre> <1100560006.12102.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1100560444.5535.23.camel@nexus.verbum.private> Message-ID: <1100633980.2682.13.camel@kyrre> tir, 16.11.2004 kl. 00.14 skrev Colin Walters: > On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 18:06 -0500, Havoc Pennington wrote: > > On Mon, 2004-11-15 at 22:40 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > > > > > > I *think* most people would be very, very angry if you killed their > > > ability to print... > > > > > > > Of course, we shouldn't need a cups daemon for client-only machines in > > many cases > > Well, right now the CUPS server is also used to pick up IPP broadcasts. > It would be nice to have an IPP notification only daemon for security > reasons too though. > When you mention security: Try this: Hook a computer which shares a printer up to a network. Make sure the host is named "localhost". Cups will now broadcast that "localhost" is sharing printer "?berprinter3" Now log in at another machine, and try to *print* to that printer. Make sure you DO have root access to the machine - you will have to stop cups and clear out its spool catalog. What happens is that cups don't do any sanity checks on the recieved broadcasts - if it recives a broadcast from "192.168.0.5" saying that "localhost" is sharing "?berprinter 3" it just stores that - no sanity checks such as trying to look up the hostname and seeing that it does resolve corectly. So it sends the job to itself, which is recived, sent to itself und zu weiter... From kyrre at solution-forge.net Tue Nov 16 19:43:05 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:43:05 +0100 Subject: Faster login In-Reply-To: <200411161259.29896.stephan.matthiesen@gmx.de> References: <1100399097.7906.21.camel@davidz> <20041115175815.GG29670@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <200411161259.29896.stephan.matthiesen@gmx.de> Message-ID: <1100634184.2682.16.camel@kyrre> tir, 16.11.2004 kl. 13.59 skrev Stephan Matthiesen: > Hi, > > Am Montag, 15. November 2004 21:07 schrieb Mike Hearn: > > Of course, starting services I don't need/want like cups doesn't help > > either ... > > Suggestion: Most people probably need cups, but not right from the start > (usually you first edit a document etc.) > > What I do: I disabled all services that are not essential for login. Then I > have a batch script that starts the rest when the load goes down, i.e. after > login. So acpid, crond, cups, mysql, httpd, privoxy, wine ... get started > while I'm already working. (It's a laptop, so I need to boot/shutdown several > times a day; I need mysql and httpd for some of my databases). > This way I saved something like 40 seconds startup time. > > It would be nice if there was a recognized/official way to start non-essential > services after the login. It could be a simple modification of the existing > links in /etc/rc5.d/, like: > S85httpd starts http immediately > L85httpd starts it later as a batch job. > There should also information which services depend on each other, and which > are needed for X. > > Cheers > Stephan Well - as long as it is predictable, all is fine. But you want to make sure that HTTPD and acpid actually WILL start asap. (but not before.) Think a machine with little RAM and no DMA. its load might not fall rappidly enough for those services to start, and it would make a debugging nightmare. From dalive at flashmail.com Wed Nov 17 01:08:51 2004 From: dalive at flashmail.com (Arturo) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 01:08:51 +0000 Subject: FC3 CD Art In-Reply-To: <41966AFD.9030504@flashmail.com> References: <41966AFD.9030504@flashmail.com> Message-ID: <419AA4A3.6010505@flashmail.com> I finally made some cd labels of my own. They can be found here: http://www.dalive.com/dalug/fedora/cdart.php Arturo wrote: > Where can I find cd art (labels, sleeves, etc) for Fedora Core 3? Or > at the very list good graphics to make one myself? > > Thanks > From sean.bruno at dsl-only.net Mon Nov 22 04:31:54 2004 From: sean.bruno at dsl-only.net (Sean Bruno) Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 20:31:54 -0800 Subject: OOO not auto-saving by default Message-ID: <1101097914.27458.6.camel@oscar.metro1.com> It appears that OOO doesn't have auto-save turned on by default. I just ran into this with my spouse, who is not very tech savy. She has never experienced(until now) the loss of a document do to a tech glitch or other oddities of computers. I "assumed" that this auto-save feature would be turned on, I would be incorrect... :) I enjoy letting my better-half poke around with Linux as it gives me a better perspective on what works and more importantly what does not. Anyway, fair warning to all OOO users, turn on your auto-save now, before it's too late! Sean Bruno From tony at tgds.net Mon Nov 22 06:55:46 2004 From: tony at tgds.net (tony) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 07:55:46 +0100 Subject: After a week with FC3 Message-ID: <1101106546.5118.51.camel@hush> Over the last week I have done two clean installs of FC3 on my hush (Epia M10000). The first time round I did an "everything" install just to check out what is new and the apps which I don't normally use. It took 70+ minutes and went smoothly. Second time after breaking the system* I did my normal Gnome workstation install with a few development tools. The machine is faster - boot time is shorter. Most stuff works really well. *I broke the system trying to install lirc and DVB into udev. Hey this is the 21st century - what is a computer without a digital satellite card and remote. Especially in a living room home office. Another problem is getting my Evolution 1.4 mail archives back into Evolution 2. There must be an easier way than one at a time from the old inbox. I plugged my Logitec Pocket digital in and, although I get the camera dialogue box, can not import the photos on it to my HD. I knew that this was because it is an experimental driver. To get VMware installed I had to jump through hoops to install the kernel source. OK this won't bug the average Joe but there are people who have been using a Linux desktop since 1997... Read: some of us have legacy apps... I plugged a firewire DVD-R in and it just worked. No luck with a USB key on the other hand. I still don't like Bluecurve and will have to grab some themes. This one is a 8/10 (FC1 was 7/10) so things are moving along nicely. The devil is in the details. Rather than great swooping changes most apps seem to be at the stage of need a final polish. Cheers Tony Grant From jeremy.rosengren at gmail.com Mon Nov 22 07:48:48 2004 From: jeremy.rosengren at gmail.com (Jeremy Rosengren) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 01:48:48 -0600 Subject: After a week with FC3 In-Reply-To: <1101106546.5118.51.camel@hush> References: <1101106546.5118.51.camel@hush> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 07:55:46 +0100, tony wrote: > To get VMware installed I had to jump through hoops to install the > kernel source. OK this won't bug the average Joe but there are people > who have been using a Linux desktop since 1997... Read: some of us have > legacy apps... If you're running VMware 4.5.2 (which you should be on recent versions of Fedora with 2.6.x kernels) you do not need the kernel source to either install VMware or compile the VMware modules after installation. You *do* need to satisfy some extra steps for Fedora Core 3 because the VMware installer doesn't understand udev, which I hear will be addressed in VMware 5 (currently in beta). -- jeremy From tony at tgds.net Mon Nov 22 08:12:38 2004 From: tony at tgds.net (tony) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 09:12:38 +0100 Subject: After a week with FC3 In-Reply-To: References: <1101106546.5118.51.camel@hush> Message-ID: <1101111159.6573.5.camel@hush> Le lundi 22 novembre 2004 ? 01:48 -0600, Jeremy Rosengren a ?crit : > On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 07:55:46 +0100, tony wrote: > > To get VMware installed I had to jump through hoops to install the > > kernel source. OK this won't bug the average Joe but there are people > > who have been using a Linux desktop since 1997... Read: some of us have > > legacy apps... > > If you're running VMware 4.5.2 (which you should be on recent versions > of Fedora with 2.6.x kernels) you do not need the kernel source to > either install VMware or compile the VMware modules after > installation. You *do* need to satisfy some extra steps for Fedora > Core 3 because the VMware installer doesn't understand udev, which I > hear will be addressed in VMware 5 (currently in beta). In my post I said that I was running an Epia M10000. This is an unsupported CPU for VMware so I am stuck with 3.2.1. This is not really an issue - I use vmaware-any-any and VMware runs just fine. Redhat has always had a thing with kernels, I don't know why. When I need to I will go back to running a kernel built from kernel.org source. Having a kernel source tree on hand is, well, handy... Cheers Tony Grant From kyrre at solution-forge.net Mon Nov 22 10:05:59 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 11:05:59 +0100 Subject: OOO not auto-saving by default In-Reply-To: <1101097914.27458.6.camel@oscar.metro1.com> References: <1101097914.27458.6.camel@oscar.metro1.com> Message-ID: <1101117959.8108.0.camel@kyrre> man, 22.11.2004 kl. 05.31 skrev Sean Bruno: > It appears that OOO doesn't have auto-save turned on by default. I just > ran into this with my spouse, who is not very tech savy. She has never > experienced(until now) the loss of a document do to a tech glitch or > other oddities of computers. > > I "assumed" that this auto-save feature would be turned on, I would be > incorrect... :) > > I enjoy letting my better-half poke around with Linux as it gives me a > better perspective on what works and more importantly what does not. > > Anyway, fair warning to all OOO users, turn on your auto-save now, > before it's too late! > > Sean Bruno And RH packagers: please turn it on... Sean: you might want to report this as a bug in bugzilla From jspaleta at gmail.com Mon Nov 22 14:40:50 2004 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 09:40:50 -0500 Subject: OOO not auto-saving by default In-Reply-To: <1101117959.8108.0.camel@kyrre> References: <1101097914.27458.6.camel@oscar.metro1.com> <1101117959.8108.0.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: <604aa791041122064048469e2a@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 11:05:59 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > And RH packagers: please turn it on... > > Sean: you might want to report this as a bug in bugzilla does upstream openoffice have it on by default? Whatever argument you could use to rationalize the distribution turning it on by default would also hold for upstream to enable it by default. So instead of every distribution having to take special effort to turn it on by default, file this with upstream with openoffice.org and get auto-saved turned on by default upstream and save every packager downstream the trouble. -jef From sean.bruno at dsl-only.net Tue Nov 23 18:34:40 2004 From: sean.bruno at dsl-only.net (Sean Bruno) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 10:34:40 -0800 Subject: EVO 2 and Exchange Message-ID: <1101234880.9896.3.camel@oscar.metro1.com> I was wondering if there is a bug with the "delegation" feature of the EVO2 calendars that anyone has heard of? I am attempting to allow an admin to muck with my calendar and she can access my calendar on the Exchange server, but she cannot change it even though I set her as a "Publishing Editor." Any ideas? -- From sean.bruno at dsl-only.net Wed Nov 24 06:41:10 2004 From: sean.bruno at dsl-only.net (Sean Bruno) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 22:41:10 -0800 Subject: utmpx/wtmpx Message-ID: <1101278471.14633.3.camel@wbar3.sea1-4-5-117-171.sea1.dsl-verizon.net> Does anyone know how to debug login record issues or who to talk to about login record issues? I am experiencing a weird issue described in bugzilla 140297 and I would like to debug it myself, but I don't seem to be able to find anyone to assist me with it. Sean From mgoodhew at gmail.com Wed Nov 24 11:51:14 2004 From: mgoodhew at gmail.com (Miles Goodhew) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 22:51:14 +1100 Subject: utmpx/wtmpx In-Reply-To: <1101278471.14633.3.camel@wbar3.sea1-4-5-117-171.sea1.dsl-verizon.net> References: <1101278471.14633.3.camel@wbar3.sea1-4-5-117-171.sea1.dsl-verizon.net> Message-ID: <3514a2104112403511377782c@mail.gmail.com> Sean, On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 22:41:10 -0800, Sean Bruno wrote: > Does anyone know how to debug login record issues or who to talk to > about login record issues? I am experiencing a weird issue described in > bugzilla 140297 and I would like to debug it myself, but I don't seem to > be able to find anyone to assist me with it. Lets see what I can remember about utmp/wtmp (Sorry, I'm using a desktop OS whose name starts with a "W", so all I can do is recall, I can't look it up). * I may have the relative meanings of "utmp" and "wtmp" swapped-over below. * "Utmpx/wtmpx" is a Sun-originated extension of the "traditional" utmp/wtmp files (Same purposes, just more information/fatter fields or whatnot). * Utmp and Wtmp use the same record structure, they just use them in different ways (see next two points). * Utmp is a running log of user login history ("last" reads this) - everytime a log action (login/logout/reboot and a bunch of other odd things) happens it gets appended here. * Wtmp is a list of the current login state of each user and is read by "Who"/"w". The records are indexed by UID (e.g. user "Fred" with UID=1024 has their login state recorded at offset ( sizeof( utmp_record ) * 1024 ). * Utmp and wtmp use fixed-field-length strings (the kind of things that the el-stupido "strncpy()" function exists to deal with - viva el "strlcpy()"!). These have the perculiar property of being NUL-padded ('\0') if their content is smaller than the field and they are not NUL-terminated if the content is as-long-as or longer than the field. (This is probably an important clue). If I were you, I'd work-up a program in language-of-your-choice (C, Python or Perl can do it for sure) to scan-through one record at a time and sanity-check the file that "who" reads (make sure it's wtmp - remember my first point above). As I also indicated above, the slightly anti-intuitive behaviour of strncpy() and the fields it produces might be a factor in the problem. Something could be inadvertantly adding an extra NUL character or overrunning a field somewhere (right after your listed logged-in user possibly). Or it could be the case that the ?tmp file is fine, but "who" is musjudging the data. Happy hacking, Moles. -- Miles Goodhew, Senior Hacker TransACT communications From byte at aeon.com.my Wed Nov 24 14:49:05 2004 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 22:49:05 +0800 Subject: "Professionalism" syntax In-Reply-To: <20041112191153.GA12746@jadzia.bu.edu> References: <1100268764.2223.8.camel@Laptron4020.attbi.com> <20041112143059.GA1632@jadzia.bu.edu> <1100269931.6926.43.camel@binkley> <20041112152838.GA3189@jadzia.bu.edu> <1100274937.9554.21.camel@opus.phy.duke.edu> <20041112190628.GB12609@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <20041112191153.GA12746@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: <1101307745.12254.56.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2004-11-12 at 14:11 -0500, Matthew Miller wrote: > > > Guess what, I bet everyone there thought it was funny and silly. But not > > > offensive. Eric obviously wasn't too worried about it. > > I'd expect Erik would be more concerned about spelling his name > > right in this thread. :) > > Hmmm. Maybe the barcode screensaver should be patched to be a credits list > rather than random words. :) If ya'll want changes, best to submit this upstream to jwz (who will just laugh at you) And no, this isn't singling Matt out, its the entire thread in general. As Seth keeps on saying, some word is offensive at some time to someone. Let's not get overly emotional - we do want things to be "professional", but let's not take out the "fun" out of Linux too This isn't the first time a screensaver related thread has come out (read the glorious archives). Maybe we should find a fix for FC4 - default is blank, xscreensaver-extras gets everything else -- Colin Charles, byte at aeon.com.my http://www.bytebot.net/ "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mohandas Gandhi From byte at aeon.com.my Wed Nov 24 14:53:10 2004 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 22:53:10 +0800 Subject: OOO not auto-saving by default In-Reply-To: <604aa791041122064048469e2a@mail.gmail.com> References: <1101097914.27458.6.camel@oscar.metro1.com> <1101117959.8108.0.camel@kyrre> <604aa791041122064048469e2a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1101307990.12254.60.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2004-11-22 at 09:40 -0500, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > wrote: > > And RH packagers: please turn it on... > > > > Sean: you might want to report this as a bug in bugzilla > > does upstream openoffice have it on by default? Whatever argument you > could use to rationalize the distribution turning it on by default > would also hold for upstream to enable it by default. So instead of No, its off by default and has been for ages > every distribution having to take special effort to turn it on by > default, file this with upstream with openoffice.org and get > auto-saved turned on by default upstream and save every packager > downstream the trouble. In fact, the users at openoffice.org/discuss at openoffice.org as well as IssueZilla has heard much about this issue It is a user defined task - especially in a networked environment, turning on autosave when home directories are NFS mounted isn't the wisest thing to do -- Colin Charles, byte at aeon.com.my http://www.bytebot.net/ "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mohandas Gandhi From mike at navi.cx Thu Nov 25 19:18:28 2004 From: mike at navi.cx (Mike Hearn) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 19:18:28 +0000 Subject: OOO not auto-saving by default References: <1101097914.27458.6.camel@oscar.metro1.com> <1101117959.8108.0.camel@kyrre> <604aa791041122064048469e2a@mail.gmail.com> <1101307990.12254.60.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 22:53:10 +0800, Colin Charles wrote: > It is a user defined task - especially in a networked environment, > turning on autosave when home directories are NFS mounted isn't the > wisest thing to do Shouldn't OpenOffice be more intelligent about automatically enabling/disabling it then, rather than assuming the user thinks to switch it on? I have to admit until I saw this I had never considered it might be off. I just assumed it'd be on. From akwasi_amponsah at hotmail.com Thu Nov 25 19:28:58 2004 From: akwasi_amponsah at hotmail.com (a j) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 11:28:58 -0800 Subject: kde is bugging in fc3 Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kyrre at solution-forge.net Thu Nov 25 21:23:00 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 22:23:00 +0100 Subject: OOO not auto-saving by default In-Reply-To: <1101307990.12254.60.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1101097914.27458.6.camel@oscar.metro1.com> <1101117959.8108.0.camel@kyrre> <604aa791041122064048469e2a@mail.gmail.com> <1101307990.12254.60.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1101417780.3666.0.camel@kyrre> > It is a user defined task - especially in a networked environment, > turning on autosave when home directories are NFS mounted isn't the > wisest thing to do Why not? From sean.bruno at dsl-only.net Thu Nov 25 22:49:50 2004 From: sean.bruno at dsl-only.net (Sean Bruno) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 14:49:50 -0800 Subject: OOO not auto-saving by default In-Reply-To: <1101307990.12254.60.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1101097914.27458.6.camel@oscar.metro1.com> <1101117959.8108.0.camel@kyrre> <604aa791041122064048469e2a@mail.gmail.com> <1101307990.12254.60.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1101422990.24463.13.camel@wbar3.sea1-4-5-117-171.sea1.dsl-verizon.net> I cannot come up with any argument that justifies the auto-save feature being turned off in a desktop or user-oriented distribution. I don't see any reason why this would be deactivated(it sure isn't in MS Office, I just checked a new install). Colin's point of the NFS mounted home directory completely escapes me. If someone can come up with a reason that can sink into my thick head, I would like to know. At this moment it seems a very "elitist" position to think that the average user(my spouse for instance) would have any reason to assume that a feature like this would be deactivated. These types of assumptions will keep all flavors of Linux from taking over decent market share of the home desktop market. Maybe Fedora isn't the right solution for the average person? :-( P.S. Is this message over the top? I can never tell when I cross the line! :) From edilista at fes.br Fri Nov 26 01:06:27 2004 From: edilista at fes.br (Edilmar Alves - Lista) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 22:06:27 -0300 Subject: How to start only one app in GUI? Message-ID: <41A68193.4080405@fes.br> Hi, I have a Fedora Core 2 Linux + VNC Server (running into xinetd). Then, the users may connect remotely to this server and run an app that I put into desktop (shortcut). But the users have access to other apps like OpenOffice and Mozilla, and I want: 1) the user may logon and the app starts automatically. Where do I do this? 2) none taskbar, console, etc, the app must start using full-screen, with no way to change to other apps like Alt+Tab shortcut. Is it possible? 3) the GUI must be light, I'd like to use some GUI with lower resources than GNOME and KDE. What's the better for this case? 4) the users may be in slow links, I think to use in the future softwares like FreeNX, and the GUI must be really with low graphical complexities... Thanks for any suggestions... From byte at aeon.com.my Fri Nov 26 01:41:39 2004 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 09:41:39 +0800 Subject: OOO not auto-saving by default In-Reply-To: <1101417780.3666.0.camel@kyrre> References: <1101097914.27458.6.camel@oscar.metro1.com> <1101117959.8108.0.camel@kyrre> <604aa791041122064048469e2a@mail.gmail.com> <1101307990.12254.60.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1101417780.3666.0.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: <1101433299.4658.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2004-11-25 at 22:23 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > > It is a user defined task - especially in a networked environment, > > turning on autosave when home directories are NFS mounted isn't the > > wisest thing to do > > Why not? Because the OOo <2.0 way is to overwrite the current file, which can be mighty annoying The OO. >2.0 way will save it in a temp file, and then only will it write it to a current file the moment you hit Save Now, my argument over traffic - if you're dealing w/large documents in a large environment (think a university lab), you're getting quite a lot of traffic with autosaves turned on. Also, those USB thumb drive things might not appreciate being written to so often (speculation here) -- Colin Charles, byte at aeon.com.my http://www.bytebot.net/ "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mohandas Gandhi From byte at aeon.com.my Fri Nov 26 01:44:03 2004 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 09:44:03 +0800 Subject: OOO not auto-saving by default In-Reply-To: <1101422990.24463.13.camel@wbar3.sea1-4-5-117-171.sea1.dsl-verizon.net> References: <1101097914.27458.6.camel@oscar.metro1.com> <1101117959.8108.0.camel@kyrre> <604aa791041122064048469e2a@mail.gmail.com> <1101307990.12254.60.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1101422990.24463.13.camel@wbar3.sea1-4-5-117-171.sea1.dsl-verizon.net> Message-ID: <1101433443.4658.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2004-11-25 at 14:49 -0800, Sean Bruno wrote: > I cannot come up with any argument that justifies the auto-save feature > being turned off in a desktop or user-oriented distribution. Should be fixed in OOo 2.0, I'm not sure if its going on by default, but the "broken" method is definitely going to be fixed > Maybe Fedora isn't the right solution for the average person? :-( > > P.S. Is this message over the top? I can never tell when I cross the > line! :) It isn't Fedora, its upstream. Think about working on a document, making some massive changes and then finding that autosave ate your old document up to. No chance of undoing easily. Your wife wouldn't be too pleased as well (as the default undo actions aren't all that high either) -- Colin Charles, byte at aeon.com.my http://www.bytebot.net/ "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mohandas Gandhi From w5set at alltel.net Fri Nov 26 02:16:52 2004 From: w5set at alltel.net (Steve Thacker) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 20:16:52 -0600 Subject: OOO not auto-saving by default In-Reply-To: <1101422990.24463.13.camel@wbar3.sea1-4-5-117-171.sea1.dsl-verizon.net> References: <1101097914.27458.6.camel@oscar.metro1.com> <1101117959.8108.0.camel@kyrre> <604aa791041122064048469e2a@mail.gmail.com> <1101307990.12254.60.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1101422990.24463.13.camel@wbar3.sea1-4-5-117-171.sea1.dsl-verizon.net> Message-ID: <41A69214.8030709@alltel.net> yep--over the top, you used 2 smiley/frowney faces.....but some older installs of word perfect and word had default autosaves of every 30 minutes setup. I have used "OpenOffice" for several years and all versions I have used have had the autosave feature turned off on default settings (as I found out by losing 30+ minutes of typing once). I just remember to set the "save" on five or so minutes when I setup ANY word or excel type office program. If you think any office application works just great right out of the box, you or your spouse must not use them much. That's why all of the "options" are in setup. Tune them to YOUR personal likings and operating way. Wonder the cost of your stated "new install" of Ms Office vs Linux and OpenOffice? For the price difference I will continue to support and use Linux personally, even stating that, this is being written on a XP machine with a LOT of windows office "stuff" on it that I use because of old habits which are still being broken slowly by just swivelling around in my chair to a cluster of my personal Linux machines. .....steve Sean Bruno wrote: > I cannot come up with any argument that justifies the auto-save feature > being turned off in a desktop or user-oriented distribution. > > I don't see any reason why this would be deactivated(it sure isn't in MS > Office, I just checked a new install). > > Colin's point of the NFS mounted home directory completely escapes me. > If someone can come up with a reason that can sink into my thick head, I > would like to know. At this moment it seems a very "elitist" position > to think that the average user(my spouse for instance) would have any > reason to assume that a feature like this would be deactivated. These > types of assumptions will keep all flavors of Linux from taking over > decent market share of the home desktop market. > > Maybe Fedora isn't the right solution for the average person? :-( > > P.S. Is this message over the top? I can never tell when I cross the > line! :) > > > > From sean.bruno at dsl-only.net Fri Nov 26 01:51:38 2004 From: sean.bruno at dsl-only.net (Sean Bruno) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 17:51:38 -0800 Subject: OOO not auto-saving by default In-Reply-To: <1101433443.4658.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1101097914.27458.6.camel@oscar.metro1.com> <1101117959.8108.0.camel@kyrre> <604aa791041122064048469e2a@mail.gmail.com> <1101307990.12254.60.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1101422990.24463.13.camel@wbar3.sea1-4-5-117-171.sea1.dsl-verizon.net> <1101433443.4658.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1101433899.32276.1.camel@wbar3.sea1-4-5-117-171.sea1.dsl-verizon.net> > It isn't Fedora, its upstream. Think about working on a document, making > some massive changes and then finding that autosave ate your old > document up to. No chance of undoing easily. Your wife wouldn't be too > pleased as well (as the default undo actions aren't all that high > either) I wonder if this entire time I have been confused by something. Is there a difference between what we are talking about, i.e. auto-save, and recovery from a system crash? Are these different things all together? Sean From sean.bruno at dsl-only.net Fri Nov 26 04:51:21 2004 From: sean.bruno at dsl-only.net (Sean Bruno) Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 20:51:21 -0800 Subject: OOO not auto-saving by default In-Reply-To: <41A69214.8030709@alltel.net> References: <1101097914.27458.6.camel@oscar.metro1.com> <1101117959.8108.0.camel@kyrre> <604aa791041122064048469e2a@mail.gmail.com> <1101307990.12254.60.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1101422990.24463.13.camel@wbar3.sea1-4-5-117-171.sea1.dsl-verizon.net> <41A69214.8030709@alltel.net> Message-ID: <1101444681.32276.12.camel@wbar3.sea1-4-5-117-171.sea1.dsl-verizon.net> > much. That's why all of the "options" are in setup. Tune them to YOUR > personal likings and operating way. Wow...Have you ever taken a standard computer user through the settings of any Office suite? They stare at you as though you are speaking a different language. Most users really don't care about options and get very frustrated when stuff "just doesn't work." > Wonder the cost of your stated "new install" of Ms Office vs Linux and > OpenOffice? For the price difference I will continue to support and use > Linux personally, even stating that, this is being written on a XP As far as cost is concerned, most people don't really care that OO and Linux are free. They get a "free" version of something with their new PC that mostly meets their needs. Am I underestimating the novice computer user? Am I making too big a deal out of one option setting here? If I am, I'll just drop it and make an "FAQ" on a post-it to change the auto-save setting. Since I am not seeing any opinions from the RedHat folks here, I think we are all wasting out time. From w5set at alltel.net Fri Nov 26 07:03:27 2004 From: w5set at alltel.net (Steve Thacker) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 01:03:27 -0600 Subject: OOO not auto-saving by default In-Reply-To: <1101444681.32276.12.camel@wbar3.sea1-4-5-117-171.sea1.dsl-verizon.net> References: <1101097914.27458.6.camel@oscar.metro1.com> <1101117959.8108.0.camel@kyrre> <604aa791041122064048469e2a@mail.gmail.com> <1101307990.12254.60.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1101422990.24463.13.camel@wbar3.sea1-4-5-117-171.sea1.dsl-verizon.net> <41A69214.8030709@alltel.net> <1101444681.32276.12.camel@wbar3.sea1-4-5-117-171.sea1.dsl-verizon.net> Message-ID: <41A6D53F.3030708@alltel.net> yes I have taken several "novices" thru the setups/options of OO and Ms windows stuff too. some couldn't setup a cup on a saucer, but most can and do most office personell are rather computer savy after just a little work, but I do think the setup of saving the work in any office suite should be closely controlled in this day and age. Just turning on the "auto-save" feature doesn't help without where it should go, so there are 2 points of interest here. Where to allow office people to save and if they should be allowed to carry home data if they use a thumb-drive, cd, floppy or whatever. Seems to me that in a secure data site, like a doctor/lawyer office it should go back to the server. Point is---where do you save or allow it to be saved after turning on the auto-save feature on everyone's computer? May as well not have it turned on in an office environment as to have maybe sensitive data going soneplace the admin wouldn't ever dream of allowing it. even in the home, where my usual usage is, I use particular directories of my own choise, not the default directories. I like to copy them to a data cd, or thumbdrive and take them with me--I don't like waiting to find them through a search of my hard drive, even Ms winders likes to bury them inside a directory or 4. and we are making a lot to do about just a minor point--just publish this default setting "problem" somehwere that newbies can find and list other ways to use the auto-save feature---Hay! a info page? I do have a small network (7 computers)going here at home and my wife likes me to be handy sometimes to FIX her computer once in a while. She uses Excel/word but I can't get her to change to OO/Linux. She won't allow me to even upgrade her computer to XP-let alone Linux Fedora Core-SHE SAYS SHE FINALLY GOT THE HANG OF ME Windows--yeah--right! .....steve Sean Bruno wrote: > > Wow...Have you ever taken a standard computer user through the settings > of any Office suite? They stare at you as though you are speaking a > different language. > > Most users really don't care about options and get very frustrated when > stuff "just doesn't work." > As far as cost is concerned, most people don't really care that OO and > Linux are free. They get a "free" version of something with their new > PC that mostly meets their needs. > > Am I underestimating the novice computer user? Am I making too big a > deal out of one option setting here? If I am, I'll just drop it and > make an "FAQ" on a post-it to change the auto-save setting. Since I am > not seeing any opinions from the RedHat folks here, I think we are all > wasting out time. > > > From byte at aeon.com.my Fri Nov 26 06:55:11 2004 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 14:55:11 +0800 Subject: OOO not auto-saving by default In-Reply-To: <1101433899.32276.1.camel@wbar3.sea1-4-5-117-171.sea1.dsl-verizon.net> References: <1101097914.27458.6.camel@oscar.metro1.com> <1101117959.8108.0.camel@kyrre> <604aa791041122064048469e2a@mail.gmail.com> <1101307990.12254.60.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1101422990.24463.13.camel@wbar3.sea1-4-5-117-171.sea1.dsl-verizon.net> <1101433443.4658.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1101433899.32276.1.camel@wbar3.sea1-4-5-117-171.sea1.dsl-verizon.net> Message-ID: <1101452112.3664.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2004-11-25 at 17:51 -0800, Sean Bruno wrote: > > It isn't Fedora, its upstream. Think about working on a document, making > > some massive changes and then finding that autosave ate your old > > document up to. No chance of undoing easily. Your wife wouldn't be too > > pleased as well (as the default undo actions aren't all that high > > either) > > I wonder if this entire time I have been confused by something. Is > there a difference between what we are talking about, i.e. auto-save, > and recovery from a system crash? Are these different things all > together? Auto-save is turned off by default, yes. When turned on however, and given a time (say every 5 minutes), it overwrites the file thats being worked on every 5 minutes (as opposed to saving it in a temporary location, and then only overwriting the file when the user clicks Save) Recovery from a system crash happens when autosave is turned on, yes. But what if your system *does not* crash, and AutoSave is turned on, and you made changes, and it ate your old file up? Wouldn't you be pissed? Lots of users would be, so OOo 2.0 will fix this. Trawl IssueZilla if you'd like more information about this -- Colin Charles, byte at aeon.com.my http://www.bytebot.net/ "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mohandas Gandhi From sean.bruno at dsl-only.net Sat Nov 27 04:02:41 2004 From: sean.bruno at dsl-only.net (Sean Bruno) Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 20:02:41 -0800 Subject: XMMS defaulting to ARTS Message-ID: <1101528162.5237.0.camel@wbar3.sea1-4-5-117-171.sea1.dsl-verizon.net> Was wondering if it was intentional that XMMS defaults to using ARTS for it's output plugin. From akwasi_amponsah at hotmail.com Sun Nov 28 12:28:54 2004 From: akwasi_amponsah at hotmail.com (a j) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 04:28:54 -0800 Subject: fc3 fails to stop on shut down Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kyrre at solution-forge.net Sun Nov 28 13:51:43 2004 From: kyrre at solution-forge.net (Kyrre Ness Sjobak) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 14:51:43 +0100 Subject: fc3 fails to stop on shut down In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1101649903.2741.0.camel@kyrre> s?n, 28.11.2004 kl. 13.28 skrev a j: > I have problem when shutting down fc 3. when I shut it down it get to > the point of apt-power > > called (something like that) and will not shut down I'm force to > manually shut down. but if reboot > > will does that perfectly. > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ APM you mean? How old are your machine? Kernel? From pijucliu at hawaiilinux.us Sun Nov 28 18:11:38 2004 From: pijucliu at hawaiilinux.us (Jamie Larsen) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 08:11:38 -1000 Subject: Suspend to RAM/Disk Message-ID: <41AA14DA.8040200@hawaiilinux.us> Does anyone know how to do Suspend to RAM/Disk with FC3? I have an HP xe4560 notebook (Athlon XP-M 2500 with 512 MB DDR). Suspend to RAM seemed to work with FC3 ("echo 3 > /proc/acpi/sleep"). However, once the machine goes into the suspend mode, I can't get it back other than a cold reboot. A couple a days ago, I bought a thin-and-light notebook (Avertec with Athlon XP-M 2200). Suspend-to-RAM works flawlessly with Windows XP/Home. Before I overwrite it with FC3, can anyone tell me whether it may allow the suspend to RAM/Disk operation? From freelance0 at gmail.com Sun Nov 28 21:14:36 2004 From: freelance0 at gmail.com (Alex Catullo) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 16:14:36 -0500 Subject: fc3 fails to stop on shut down In-Reply-To: <1101649903.2741.0.camel@kyrre> References: <1101649903.2741.0.camel@kyrre> Message-ID: <6dc131f20411281314340631c@mail.gmail.com> Iv'e found this to happen in every redhat distro i've used, I think there' isn't a "power down" string written into the shutdown sequence. I don't think this is a major problem, as all you need to do is hit the power button when it says "power down" On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 14:51:43 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak wrote: > s?n, 28.11.2004 kl. 13.28 skrev a j: > > > > I have problem when shutting down fc 3. when I shut it down it get to > > the point of apt-power > > > > called (something like that) and will not shut down I'm force to > > manually shut down. but if reboot > > > > will does that perfectly. > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > APM you mean? How old are your machine? Kernel? > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > From w5set at alltel.net Sun Nov 28 21:44:48 2004 From: w5set at alltel.net (Steve Thacker) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 15:44:48 -0600 Subject: fc3 fails to stop on shut down In-Reply-To: <6dc131f20411281314340631c@mail.gmail.com> References: <1101649903.2741.0.camel@kyrre> <6dc131f20411281314340631c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <41AA46D0.7040700@alltel.net> Some of my computers auto shutdown the power, some don't--some even identical to each other---look in the CMOS setup to see how the computer is configured (if availible there) to handle the shutdown button--i.e. shutdown or suspend to disk or delay ---etc.........steve Alex Catullo wrote: > Iv'e found this to happen in every redhat distro i've used, I think > there' isn't a "power down" string written into the shutdown sequence. > I don't think this is a major problem, as all you need to do is hit > the power button when it says "power down" > > > On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 14:51:43 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak > wrote: > >>s?n, 28.11.2004 kl. 13.28 skrev a j: >> >> >> >>>I have problem when shutting down fc 3. when I shut it down it get to >>>the point of apt-power >>> >>>called (something like that) and will not shut down I'm force to >>>manually shut down. but if reboot >>> >>>will does that perfectly. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>______________________________________________________________________ >> >>APM you mean? How old are your machine? Kernel? >> >>-- >>Fedora-desktop-list mailing list >>Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com >>http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list >> > > From bill.peck at gmail.com Mon Nov 29 04:27:01 2004 From: bill.peck at gmail.com (bill peck) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 23:27:01 -0500 Subject: Suspend to RAM/Disk In-Reply-To: <41AA14DA.8040200@hawaiilinux.us> References: <41AA14DA.8040200@hawaiilinux.us> Message-ID: <8ae9a39504112820274e763710@mail.gmail.com> Try pressing the fn key. On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 08:11:38 -1000, Jamie Larsen wrote: > Does anyone know how to do Suspend to RAM/Disk with FC3? > > I have an HP xe4560 notebook (Athlon XP-M 2500 with 512 MB DDR). > Suspend to RAM seemed to work with FC3 ("echo 3 > /proc/acpi/sleep"). > However, once the machine goes into the suspend mode, I can't get it > back other than a cold reboot. > > A couple a days ago, I bought a thin-and-light notebook (Avertec with > Athlon XP-M 2200). Suspend-to-RAM works flawlessly with Windows > XP/Home. Before I overwrite it with FC3, can anyone tell me whether it > may allow the suspend to RAM/Disk operation? > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > -- Bill Peck http://www.pecknet.com From stfn at gmx.net Mon Nov 29 09:01:06 2004 From: stfn at gmx.net (Stefan Hoelldampf) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:01:06 +0100 Subject: fc3 fails to stop on shut down In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41AAE552.7040407@gmx.net> a j wrote: > I have problem when shutting down fc 3. when I shut it down it get to > the point of apt-power > > called (something like that) and will not shut down I'm force to > manually shut down. but if reboot > > will does that perfectly. This problem is already known: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=132761 Regards, Stefan From a.meyer at hccnet.nl Mon Nov 29 09:11:29 2004 From: a.meyer at hccnet.nl (Andre Meyer) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:11:29 +0100 (MET) Subject: Thunderbird 0.9 RPM Message-ID: <32783.62.251.0.62.1101719489.squirrel@62.251.0.62> Hi all Finally, we have Thunderbird as (default) email client in FC3. But it is version 0.8, while 0.9 has been available for a while. Where can the RPM for version 0.9 be downloaded. None of the familiar places has it. Why is this so? Maybe the solution is just too simple for me to see ;-) thanks and kind regards Andre From a.meyer at hccnet.nl Mon Nov 29 09:14:28 2004 From: a.meyer at hccnet.nl (Andre Meyer) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:14:28 +0100 (MET) Subject: Long shutdown time behind firewall Message-ID: <33495.62.251.0.62.1101719668.squirrel@62.251.0.62> Hi all In FC3 I experience a strange effect that was not there in previous versions: when I shut down at my work location (I have a notebook computer) it takes a few minutes before anything happens. Using the same machine elsewhere does not show this effect. Can this be related to the firewall that is used at work? What might FC3 be waiting for? thanks and kind regards Andre From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Mon Nov 29 06:47:58 2004 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:47:58 +0200 Subject: fc3 fails to stop on shut down In-Reply-To: <41AA46D0.7040700@alltel.net> References: <1101649903.2741.0.camel@kyrre> <6dc131f20411281314340631c@mail.gmail.com> <41AA46D0.7040700@alltel.net> Message-ID: <41AAC61E.3090801@nicubunu.ro> Steve Thacker wrote: > Some of my computers auto shutdown the power, some don't--some even > identical to each other---look in the CMOS setup to see how the computer > is configured (if availible there) to handle the shutdown button--i.e. > shutdown or suspend to disk or delay ---etc.........steve i have the same problem on two different computers, both with AMD CPUs, one with VIA (KT266) chipset and another with SiS (don't remember now the model). the computers will shut down correctly only when ACPI is disabled in BIOS. -- nicu From kaspars at os.lv Mon Nov 29 08:47:41 2004 From: kaspars at os.lv (Kaspars) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:47:41 +0200 Subject: fc3 fails to stop on shut down In-Reply-To: <41AA46D0.7040700@alltel.net> References: <1101649903.2741.0.camel@kyrre> <6dc131f20411281314340631c@mail.gmail.com> <41AA46D0.7040700@alltel.net> Message-ID: <41AAE22D.80607@os.lv> I have the same problem... :) if GUI do Action -> Log out -> Log out or Shut Down then it hangs.. and I must go to command line and write to so.. :) Something in GUI is broken... Before it was ok, FC3 fresh install don`t work. Steve Thacker wrote: > Some of my computers auto shutdown the power, some don't--some even > identical to each other---look in the CMOS setup to see how the computer > is configured (if availible there) to handle the shutdown button--i.e. > shutdown or suspend to disk or delay ---etc.........steve > > Alex Catullo wrote: > >> Iv'e found this to happen in every redhat distro i've used, I think >> there' isn't a "power down" string written into the shutdown sequence. >> I don't think this is a major problem, as all you need to do is hit >> the power button when it says "power down" >> >> >> On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 14:51:43 +0100, Kyrre Ness Sjobak >> wrote: >> >>> s?n, 28.11.2004 kl. 13.28 skrev a j: >>> >>> >>> >>>> I have problem when shutting down fc 3. when I shut it down it get to >>>> the point of apt-power >>>> >>>> called (something like that) and will not shut down I'm force to >>>> manually shut down. but if reboot >>>> >>>> will does that perfectly. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ______________________________________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> APM you mean? How old are your machine? Kernel? >>> >>> -- >>> Fedora-desktop-list mailing list >>> Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com >>> http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list >>> >> >> > From mharris at www.linux.org.uk Mon Nov 29 13:16:00 2004 From: mharris at www.linux.org.uk (Mike A. Harris) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:16:00 -0500 Subject: Faster login In-Reply-To: <3d8600780411140528ef4e2d1@mail.gmail.com> References: <1100399097.7906.21.camel@davidz> <1100437280.4223.1.camel@scar.lion> <3d8600780411140528ef4e2d1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <41AB2110.6000108@www.linux.org.uk> Martin Alderson wrote: >>>Hi, >>> >>>So I had a brief look at shortening startup/login time and tried >>>disabling rhgb in favor of starting gdm early. It looks pretty >>>promising; here are some wall-clock numbers from two runs of each >>>configuration > > > Is it possible to have a very simple boot screen, ala Windows XP and > MacOSX? It should be animated so that people can see if the computer > is frozen? > > Basically it would be very good if as soon as you went into grub, > about 2 seconds later you had a graphical boot screen. > > Can this be done without using X? Is there some sort of really simple > X server-style application that could do this? This would be my own personal favourite way of approaching the problem. By popping up a low res (say 640x480ish) screen like XP does, and having a crappy 16 color image with a simple scroller, it is an improvement over raw text mode visually, and lets the computer boot up fast which trumps any gui eye candy effects in my opinion. It depends ultimately on wether users are more interested in seeing their desktops *now*, or if they're more interested in seeing GUI eye candy I guess. For the sake of argument, lets say we honed booting to the point where what is currently rhgb - took 1 second to display. What would be the point of the eye candy displayed for 1 second then? Nothing really useful IMHO. Any eye candy is at best - only useful if there is a long wait. From mattdm at mattdm.org Mon Nov 29 15:12:53 2004 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:12:53 -0500 Subject: Thunderbird 0.9 RPM In-Reply-To: <32783.62.251.0.62.1101719489.squirrel@62.251.0.62> References: <32783.62.251.0.62.1101719489.squirrel@62.251.0.62> Message-ID: <20041129151253.GD8992@jadzia.bu.edu> On Mon, Nov 29, 2004 at 10:11:29AM +0100, Andre Meyer wrote: > Finally, we have Thunderbird as (default) email client in FC3. But it is > version 0.8, while 0.9 has been available for a while. Where can the RPM > for version 0.9 be downloaded. None of the familiar places has it. Why is > this so? Maybe the solution is just too simple for me to see ;-) I think there's probably just not much enthusiasm for updating to another pre-1.0 release when the Thunderbird roadmap says "Our anticipated 1.0 release will focus primarily on bug fixing and polish work and should shortly follow our 0.9 release. Expected ETA is mid November." -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> From anto.montagnani at virgilio.it Mon Nov 29 15:24:52 2004 From: anto.montagnani at virgilio.it (antonio montagnani) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 16:24:52 +0100 Subject: Thunderbird 0.9 RPM In-Reply-To: <20041129151253.GD8992@jadzia.bu.edu> References: <32783.62.251.0.62.1101719489.squirrel@62.251.0.62> <20041129151253.GD8992@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: <41AB3F44.4000703@virgilio.it> Matthew Miller mi ha scritto / wrote to me il / on 29/11/2004 16.12: >On Mon, Nov 29, 2004 at 10:11:29AM +0100, Andre Meyer wrote: > > >>Finally, we have Thunderbird as (default) email client in FC3. But it is >>version 0.8, while 0.9 has been available for a while. Where can the RPM >>for version 0.9 be downloaded. None of the familiar places has it. Why is >>this so? Maybe the solution is just too simple for me to see ;-) >> >> > >I think there's probably just not much enthusiasm for updating to another >pre-1.0 release when the Thunderbird roadmap says "Our anticipated 1.0 >release will focus primarily on bug fixing and polish work and should >shortly follow our 0.9 release. Expected ETA is mid November." > > > I am happily running 0.9 after FC3 updating with RHN.... -- Antonio ================================================================================ Mail by Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 Websurfing by Mozilla Firefox 1.0 http://start.mozilla.org/firefox?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:it-IT:official ================================================================================ Posta con Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 Navigazione con Mozilla Firefox 1.0 http://start.mozilla.org/firefox?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:it-IT:official ================================================================================ Linux user number 362582 Skype user antoniomontag (telephone on TCP/IP) http://www.montagnani.org ================================================================================ From angrykeyboarder at gmail.com Tue Nov 30 01:10:46 2004 From: angrykeyboarder at gmail.com (Scott) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 18:10:46 -0700 Subject: Thunderbird 0.9 RPM In-Reply-To: <20041129151253.GD8992@jadzia.bu.edu> References: <32783.62.251.0.62.1101719489.squirrel@62.251.0.62> <20041129151253.GD8992@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: <41ABC896.3010803@gmail.com> Matthew Miller wrote: >On Mon, Nov 29, 2004 at 10:11:29AM +0100, Andre Meyer wrote: > > >>Finally, we have Thunderbird as (default) email client in FC3. But it is >>version 0.8, while 0.9 has been available for a while. Where can the RPM >>for version 0.9 be downloaded. None of the familiar places has it. Why is >>this so? Maybe the solution is just too simple for me to see ;-) >> >> > >I think there's probably just not much enthusiasm for updating to another >pre-1.0 release when the Thunderbird roadmap says "Our anticipated 1.0 >release will focus primarily on bug fixing and polish work and should >shortly follow our 0.9 release. Expected ETA is mid November." > > > Yeah well Mozilla has been late before (as they were with Firefox) and Fedora managed to get updates out.... TB 0.9 has some nice new features. I got tired of waiting so I built my own RPM 4 days ago thanks to... http://fedoranews.org/tchung/thunderbird/ Scott From angrykeyboarder at gmail.com Tue Nov 30 01:14:47 2004 From: angrykeyboarder at gmail.com (Scott) Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 18:14:47 -0700 Subject: Thunderbird 0.9 RPM In-Reply-To: <41AB3F44.4000703@virgilio.it> References: <32783.62.251.0.62.1101719489.squirrel@62.251.0.62> <20041129151253.GD8992@jadzia.bu.edu> <41AB3F44.4000703@virgilio.it> Message-ID: <41ABC987.4090607@gmail.com> antonio montagnani wrote: > Matthew Miller mi ha scritto / wrote to me il / on 29/11/2004 16.12: > >> On Mon, Nov 29, 2004 at 10:11:29AM +0100, Andre Meyer wrote: >> >> >>> Finally, we have Thunderbird as (default) email client in FC3. But >>> it is >>> version 0.8, while 0.9 has been available for a while. Where can the >>> RPM >>> for version 0.9 be downloaded. None of the familiar places has it. >>> Why is >>> this so? Maybe the solution is just too simple for me to see ;-) >>> >> >> >> I think there's probably just not much enthusiasm for updating to >> another >> pre-1.0 release when the Thunderbird roadmap says "Our anticipated 1.0 >> release will focus primarily on bug fixing and polish work and should >> shortly follow our 0.9 release. Expected ETA is mid November." >> >> >> > I am happily running 0.9 after FC3 updating with RHN.... > RHN as in "up2date"? If so that's intresting, because if that werre true, I'd be able to find a link to it here... http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/core/updates/3/i386/ or here... http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/core/updates/testing/3/i386/ Are you sure it's not v0.8 that you got from them? Scott From djh at iinet.net.au Tue Nov 30 02:10:01 2004 From: djh at iinet.net.au (djh) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 12:10:01 +1000 Subject: Thunderbird 0.9 RPM In-Reply-To: <41ABC987.4090607@gmail.com> References: <32783.62.251.0.62.1101719489.squirrel@62.251.0.62> <20041129151253.GD8992@jadzia.bu.edu> <41AB3F44.4000703@virgilio.it> <41ABC987.4090607@gmail.com> Message-ID: <41ABD679.9000504@iinet.net.au> Scott wrote: > RHN as in "up2date"? > > If so that's intresting, because if that werre true, I'd be able to > find a link to it here... > > http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/core/updates/3/i386/ > > or here... > > http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/core/updates/testing/3/i386/ > You can get it from rawhide. http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/core/development/i386/Fedora/RPMS/ David. From anto.montagnani at virgilio.it Tue Nov 30 08:45:52 2004 From: anto.montagnani at virgilio.it (antonio montagnani) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:45:52 +0100 Subject: Thunderbird 0.9 RPM In-Reply-To: <41ABC987.4090607@gmail.com> References: <32783.62.251.0.62.1101719489.squirrel@62.251.0.62> <20041129151253.GD8992@jadzia.bu.edu> <41AB3F44.4000703@virgilio.it> <41ABC987.4090607@gmail.com> Message-ID: <41AC3340.6030701@virgilio.it> Scott ha scritto / wrote il / on 30/11/2004 02:14: > antonio montagnani wrote: > >> Matthew Miller mi ha scritto / wrote to me il / on 29/11/2004 16.12: >> >>> On Mon, Nov 29, 2004 at 10:11:29AM +0100, Andre Meyer wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Finally, we have Thunderbird as (default) email client in FC3. But >>>> it is >>>> version 0.8, while 0.9 has been available for a while. Where can >>>> the RPM >>>> for version 0.9 be downloaded. None of the familiar places has it. >>>> Why is >>>> this so? Maybe the solution is just too simple for me to see ;-) >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I think there's probably just not much enthusiasm for updating to >>> another >>> pre-1.0 release when the Thunderbird roadmap says "Our anticipated 1.0 >>> release will focus primarily on bug fixing and polish work and should >>> shortly follow our 0.9 release. Expected ETA is mid November." >>> >>> >>> >> I am happily running 0.9 after FC3 updating with RHN.... >> > RHN as in "up2date"? > > If so that's intresting, because if that werre true, I'd be able to > find a link to it here... > > http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/core/updates/3/i386/ > > or here... > > http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/core/updates/testing/3/i386/ > > > Are you sure it's not v0.8 that you got from them? > > Scott > version 0.9 (20041103) , it is mine... -- Antonio ============================================================ Working with Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 on Linux Fedora Core 3 ============================================================ Utilizzo Mozilla Thunderbird 0.9 su Linux Fedora Core 3 ============================================================ Linux user number 362582 ============================================================