From splinux at fedoraproject.org Sun Aug 6 22:09:12 2006 From: splinux at fedoraproject.org (Damien Durand) Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 00:09:12 +0200 Subject: Fedora usability : a new project? Message-ID: Hello everyone, Fedora usability was born but it's not official yet;-) : http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DamienDurand/Usability What's fedora Usability? The Fedora Usability project aims to provide coherence, accessibility and intuivity for all people using Fedora Core and its associated resources. Fedora must be easy and making things simple and coherent for a pleasant use is my objectif with this project. I need feedback, if you're interested to contribute feel free to add your name in the usability group : http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DamienDurand/Usability/UsabilityGroup Once this project completed and approved by you, I'll move the wiki pages and will send an official announce ;-) Thanks in advance Damien Durand -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wtogami at redhat.com Sun Aug 6 22:19:54 2006 From: wtogami at redhat.com (Warren Togami) Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 18:19:54 -0400 Subject: Fedora usability : a new project? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44D66B0A.4030400@redhat.com> Damien Durand wrote: > Hello everyone, > > Fedora usability was born but it's not official yet;-) : > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DamienDurand/Usability > > What's fedora Usability? > > The Fedora Usability project aims to provide coherence, accessibility > and intuivity for all people using Fedora Core and its associated > resources. Fedora must be easy and making things simple and coherent for > a pleasant use is my objectif with this project. > > I need feedback, if you're interested to contribute feel free to add > your name in the usability group : > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DamienDurand/Usability/UsabilityGroup > > > Once this project completed and approved by you, I'll move the wiki > pages and will send an official announce ;-) > > Thanks in advance > > Damien Durand > I suggested that Damien use fedora-desktop-list for discussions related to this SIG because this list has really lacked purpose, structure and leadership in the past. Hopefully the Usability SIG can help to define goals for the desktop and create a clear purpose for this mailing list. Perhaps the HIG type discussion would be only one of several topics to discuss here. Warren Togami wtogami at redhat.com From stuart.cr at gmail.com Tue Aug 8 22:16:24 2006 From: stuart.cr at gmail.com (Rick Stuart) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 17:16:24 -0500 Subject: Fedora usability : a new project? Message-ID: <44D90D38.5050701@gmail.com> I welcome this idea! I have asked many folks about what they like and dis like about Linux and I only get prejudiced statements. If you sit someone ( a familiar and comfortable user of Windows) in front of your pride and joy 64-bit Fedora Core 5 install and invite them to try it out, they will fail to see any value. If you help them find their way to stuff, they will certainly hit a brick wall that you have to fix by opening a terminal window, and then it's all over. Here are a couple of suggestions: Provide an option to configure users with sufficient privileges so that they can enter their OWN password for administrative access instead of ROOT's. ( /usr/bin/system-config-* linked to "consolehelper" ) For a good model, check out UBUNTU......sorry about your toes. Something like /etc/consolehelpers a-la /etc/sudoers. I really like YUM, but I REALLY think that it sucks to explain it to users who are new to Linux. Package manager is nice, but then there is that pesky root password requirement....."So, I'll just log in as root so I don't have to type that password!" It is miserably slow. Does it even connect to YUM? I am not seeing all the available packages I can see with 'yum list available'. If that's not the right tool, then why is it on the menu under 'Add/Remove software'? Don't make me say the U-word. Give me better Themes choices. That is a big deal...and...UBUNTU is not any better.... FIX GNOME's SCREENLOCK!!!! I want the slideshow to be configurable like KDE's....It USED to be! Make wireless drop dead obvious. I hate to say it, but Windows has that down. MOST real users are going to be on laptops and Fedora is NOT ready for them. That's all I can think of right now. I have poured on the gasoline and I am waiting for the match...hurry, the gasoline is giving me a rash. Oh, wait!! One more....give up on the default mail-tool being evolution. Thunderbird! Rick Stuart From sundaram at redhat.com Wed Aug 9 06:15:30 2006 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 11:45:30 +0530 Subject: Fedora usability : a new project? In-Reply-To: <44D90D38.5050701@gmail.com> References: <44D90D38.5050701@gmail.com> Message-ID: <44D97D82.4060304@redhat.com> Rick Stuart wrote: > I welcome this idea! I have asked many folks about what they like and > dis like about Linux and I only get prejudiced statements. If you sit > someone ( a familiar and comfortable user of Windows) in front of your > pride and joy 64-bit Fedora Core 5 install and invite them to try it > out, they will fail to see any value. If you help them find their way > to stuff, they will certainly hit a brick wall that you have to fix by > opening a terminal window, and then it's all over. > > Here are a couple of suggestions: > > Provide an option to configure users with sufficient privileges so that > they can enter their OWN password for administrative access instead of > ROOT's. ( /usr/bin/system-config-* linked to "consolehelper" ) For a > good model, check out UBUNTU......sorry about your toes. Something like > /etc/consolehelpers a-la /etc/sudoers. That isnt really a good model. https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-extras-list/2006-July/msg00814.html > > I really like YUM, but I REALLY think that it sucks to explain it to > users who are new to Linux. Why? It has a consistent command line interface and it is no worse than any other command tool that I know of. http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/yum/ Package manager is nice, but then there is > that pesky root password requirement....."So, I'll just log in as root > so I don't have to type that password!" It is miserably slow. Does > it even connect to YUM? Yes, It uses yum. I am not seeing all the available packages I > can see with 'yum list available'. If that's not the right tool, then > why is it on the menu under 'Add/Remove software'? Don't make me say > the U-word. Click the big "List" button. > > Give me better Themes choices. That is a big deal...and...UBUNTU is not > any better.... We have about a dozen in core and many more in extras. I think thats plenty of choice apart from the easily installable themes from art.gnome.org and kde-look.org > > FIX GNOME's SCREENLOCK!!!! I want the slideshow to be configurable like > KDE's....It USED to be! It never was. Xscreensavers was that way but it isnt in core anymore. There is a upstream discussion on adding this feature to the new GNOME screensaver program. > > Make wireless drop dead obvious. I hate to say it, but Windows has that > down. MOST real users are going to be on laptops and Fedora is NOT > ready for them. Use Network Manager. It is not enabled by default yet till we get a few features fixed. https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2006-August/msg00081.html > > That's all I can think of right now. I have poured on the gasoline and > I am waiting for the match...hurry, the gasoline is giving me a rash. > Oh, wait!! One more....give up on the default mail-tool being > evolution. Thunderbird! Wont work. We need well integrated calendering functionality, Exchange interoperability etc and ThunderBird extensions are not very mature yet. Rahul From david at lovesunix.net Wed Aug 9 07:27:23 2006 From: david at lovesunix.net (David Nielsen) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 09:27:23 +0200 Subject: Fedora usability : a new project? In-Reply-To: <44D90D38.5050701@gmail.com> References: <44D90D38.5050701@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1155108443.2872.38.camel@price> tir, 08 08 2006 kl. 17:16 -0500, skrev Rick Stuart > Provide an option to configure users with sufficient privileges so that > they can enter their OWN password for administrative access instead of > ROOT's. ( /usr/bin/system-config-* linked to "consolehelper" ) For a > good model, check out UBUNTU......sorry about your toes. Something like > /etc/consolehelpers a-la /etc/sudoers. PolicyKit should provide this functionality the right way. I don't know if we have an ETA on this being useful but I would rather wait for a proper fix than use priviliage escalation that can introduce problems like horrid security . having to audit half a million lines of GTK+ code because it now runs as root and any slight bug could take down the system is my very definition of not funny. > I really like YUM, but I REALLY think that it sucks to explain it to > users who are new to Linux. Package manager is nice, but then there is > that pesky root password requirement....."So, I'll just log in as root > so I don't have to type that password!" It is miserably slow. Does > it even connect to YUM? I am not seeing all the available packages I > can see with 'yum list available'. If that's not the right tool, then > why is it on the menu under 'Add/Remove software'? Don't make me say > the U-word. You should always provide some kind of authication when installing programs globally, not doing so is inviting all kinds of security issues. The software manager doesn't seem slow to me, however the UI locks up due to it not being threaded - Katz' has strong arguments against adding that kind of complexity to the code. I think we might need to make him compromise a bit to make the UI not appear like it died - users tend to not like that behavior, myself included. Ubuntu has the basically same setup was we do. > Give me better Themes choices. That is a big deal...and...UBUNTU is not > any better.... You should join the artwork team and point out specific things that would add to your enjoyment of Fedora, just saying "make it better" isn't really helpful. What are the specfic issues you have and do you have ideas to investigate. If you can provide a mockup it would be great if not, a lenghty explanation and maybe referencing parts of designs on gnome-look you do like would help us get to a default theme that was good looking while still retaining good usability across the board. > FIX GNOME's SCREENLOCK!!!! I want the slideshow to be configurable like > KDE's....It USED to be! No it didn't, we used to use xscreensaver which had all kinds of other problems, gnome-screensaver restored some sanity. If you want additional features to gnome-screensaver upstream is the place to do it. I personally fail to see why this is so huge an issue that you feel the need to scream. If you have a specific thing that no longer works or could be improve please provide a better description of your issue than "fix it". It is not very helpful for either one of us. It is also not likely to get your issue the attention it deserves. > Make wireless drop dead obvious. I hate to say it, but Windows has that > down. MOST real users are going to be on laptops and Fedora is NOT > ready for them. I think the solution here is Network-Manager, it is however not entirely ready for rollout. SuSE and SLED have replaced their entire networking system with it and it seems to work beautifully for them. This is being worked on heavily - have no fear. It will not make FC6 as the default but FC7 seems like the obvious place for it to be deployed - being a major change it needs a metric shitload of testing so it needs to be deployed early in the test cycle. > That's all I can think of right now. I have poured on the gasoline and > I am waiting for the match...hurry, the gasoline is giving me a rash. > Oh, wait!! One more....give up on the default mail-tool being > evolution. Thunderbird! Thunderbird isn't a suitable replacement for Evolution, we can't provide the same functionality like Exchange integration with it. Also it doesn't integrate as well with the underlying system as Evolution does. Another issue to consider is migration of existing accounts to Thunderbird which isn't working right as I recall. The proper solution would be to fix Evolution, maybe break it into seperate applications so it would be easier to fix or replace in the future with better options. Evolution sadly isn't going anywhere anytime soon. - David Nielsen From stuart.cr at gmail.com Thu Aug 10 18:41:48 2006 From: stuart.cr at gmail.com (Rick Stuart) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 13:41:48 -0500 Subject: Execute as Root GUI Admin Interfaces In-Reply-To: <20060809160024.7E16673464@hormel.redhat.com> References: <20060809160024.7E16673464@hormel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <44DB7DEC.5080508@gmail.com> Originally: Re: Fedora usability : a new project? (Rick Stuart) > From: Rahul > > > Rick Stuart wrote: > >> I welcome this idea! I have asked many folks about what they like and >> dis like about Linux and I only get prejudiced statements. If you sit >> someone ( a familiar and comfortable user of Windows) in front of your >> pride and joy 64-bit Fedora Core 5 install and invite them to try it >> out, they will fail to see any value. If you help them find their way >> to stuff, they will certainly hit a brick wall that you have to fix by >> opening a terminal window, and then it's all over. >> >> Here are a couple of suggestions: >> >> Provide an option to configure users with sufficient privileges so that >> they can enter their OWN password for administrative access instead of >> ROOT's. ( /usr/bin/system-config-* linked to "consolehelper" ) For a >> good model, check out UBUNTU......sorry about your toes. Something like >> /etc/consolehelpers a-la /etc/sudoers. >> > > That isnt really a good model. > > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-extras-list/2006-July/msg00814.htm > > From: David Nielsen > > > > PolicyKit should provide this functionality the right way. I don't know > if we have an ETA on this being useful but I would rather wait for a > proper fix than use priviliage escalation that can introduce problems > like horrid security . having to audit half a million lines of GTK+ code > because it now runs as root and any slight bug could take down the > system is my very definition of not funny. > > PolicyKit looks interesting based on the discussions Rahul included. Correct me if I got it wrong, but would PolicyKit allow an administrator to set people up so they can do certain things as administrators (like mounting a disk) ? It looked like the user gets no challenge for authorization if they are set up to be able to do that. I actually think that is a problem. I think that when someone is executing with root privileges, they should be aware of it and consider whether they meant to do that. That is why I suggested a [SUDO]consolehelper. I am assuming that Rahul was referring to that as being a bad model. I agree that giving everyone this ability like UBUNTU does it is a problem. However, I do not agree that setting policies for a user and not reminding him/her what their action implies is any better. In our corporate Windows world, we can set domain policies and local policies that give people more administrative rights. We then invest much more support time trying to unravel what they accidentally did because they had elevated privileges and got no warnings when they mis-stepped. Our Linux desktops have very few such problems even though we have a fairly large number of "sudoers" who can do root level tasks, but have to do so intentionally. These sudoers don't need or want the root password, but they can do their jobs without problems as long as they know the CLI commands to do it. We have started reducing Windows users default admin rights and force them to intentionally (and temporarily) elevate themselves to do admin tasks. The biggest problem is the fact that they have to log out and in to get the elevated rights on Windows. Note also that MicroSoft has started popping up a lot more warnings asking people if they REALLY want to install the Trojan binary. People hate it, but what can you do? I realize this may fit better in a security discussion, but I consider it a basic usability issue so I am throwing it out here. Thanks, Rick -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stuart.cr at gmail.com Thu Aug 10 18:11:56 2006 From: stuart.cr at gmail.com (Rick Stuart) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 13:11:56 -0500 Subject: Fedora usability : a new project? In-Reply-To: <20060809160024.7E16673464@hormel.redhat.com> References: <20060809160024.7E16673464@hormel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <44DB76EC.9030809@gmail.com> Okay, I'll submit a new thread for each of the comments I made to see if I can clarify my reasons for SHOUTING. Perhaps I need to ask for clarification on the proposed perspective. Are we talking about home PeeCee users or corporate? I deal with the dichotomy of Windows-vs-Linux in both environments, so I would be most interested in seeing how this goes. I personally don't care about most of the GUI, (except the SCREENSAVER...;-), but it seems to be the way most people will expect to approach administering their system. In a corporate environment, you can get away with doing most of that for them.....except when they pick up their laptop and get on a plane for Jakarta. Then we have a problem. CLI seems simple enough unless you are telling someone to "cee dee to slash ee tee cee slash ess why ess cee oh in eff eye gee" over a bad connection. We try to think ahead to address what they might encounter, but there is always something. Obviously, we need to spend more time using the GUI tools so we can see how they work and what needs to be done with them because the blank stares (or the silence and then a sigh) I get when I say "Click on Applications/Accessories/Terminal...". Thanks, Rick fedora-desktop-list-request at redhat.com wrote: > Send Fedora-desktop-list mailing list submissions to > fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > fedora-desktop-list-request at redhat.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > fedora-desktop-list-owner at redhat.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Fedora-desktop-list digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Fedora usability : a new project? (Rick Stuart) > 2. Re: Fedora usability : a new project? (Rahul) > 3. Re: Fedora usability : a new project? (David Nielsen) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 17:16:24 -0500 > From: Rick Stuart > Subject: Re: Fedora usability : a new project? > To: fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > Message-ID: <44D90D38.5050701 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > I welcome this idea! I have asked many folks about what they like and > dis like about Linux and I only get prejudiced statements. If you sit > someone ( a familiar and comfortable user of Windows) in front of your > pride and joy 64-bit Fedora Core 5 install and invite them to try it > out, they will fail to see any value. If you help them find their way > to stuff, they will certainly hit a brick wall that you have to fix by > opening a terminal window, and then it's all over. > > Here are a couple of suggestions: > > Provide an option to configure users with sufficient privileges so that > they can enter their OWN password for administrative access instead of > ROOT's. ( /usr/bin/system-config-* linked to "consolehelper" ) For a > good model, check out UBUNTU......sorry about your toes. Something like > /etc/consolehelpers a-la /etc/sudoers. > > I really like YUM, but I REALLY think that it sucks to explain it to > users who are new to Linux. Package manager is nice, but then there is > that pesky root password requirement....."So, I'll just log in as root > so I don't have to type that password!" It is miserably slow. Does > it even connect to YUM? I am not seeing all the available packages I > can see with 'yum list available'. If that's not the right tool, then > why is it on the menu under 'Add/Remove software'? Don't make me say > the U-word. > > Give me better Themes choices. That is a big deal...and...UBUNTU is not > any better.... > > FIX GNOME's SCREENLOCK!!!! I want the slideshow to be configurable like > KDE's....It USED to be! > > Make wireless drop dead obvious. I hate to say it, but Windows has that > down. MOST real users are going to be on laptops and Fedora is NOT > ready for them. > > That's all I can think of right now. I have poured on the gasoline and > I am waiting for the match...hurry, the gasoline is giving me a rash. > Oh, wait!! One more....give up on the default mail-tool being > evolution. Thunderbird! > > Rick Stuart > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 11:45:30 +0530 > From: Rahul > Subject: Re: Fedora usability : a new project? > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > > Message-ID: <44D97D82.4060304 at redhat.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Rick Stuart wrote: > >> I welcome this idea! I have asked many folks about what they like and >> dis like about Linux and I only get prejudiced statements. If you sit >> someone ( a familiar and comfortable user of Windows) in front of your >> pride and joy 64-bit Fedora Core 5 install and invite them to try it >> out, they will fail to see any value. If you help them find their way >> to stuff, they will certainly hit a brick wall that you have to fix by >> opening a terminal window, and then it's all over. >> >> Here are a couple of suggestions: >> >> Provide an option to configure users with sufficient privileges so that >> they can enter their OWN password for administrative access instead of >> ROOT's. ( /usr/bin/system-config-* linked to "consolehelper" ) For a >> good model, check out UBUNTU......sorry about your toes. Something like >> /etc/consolehelpers a-la /etc/sudoers. >> > > > That isnt really a good model. > > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-extras-list/2006-July/msg00814.html > > >> I really like YUM, but I REALLY think that it sucks to explain it to >> users who are new to Linux. >> > > Why? It has a consistent command line interface and it is no worse than > any other command tool that I know of. > > http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/yum/ > > > Package manager is nice, but then there is > >> that pesky root password requirement....."So, I'll just log in as root >> so I don't have to type that password!" It is miserably slow. Does >> it even connect to YUM? >> > > Yes, It uses yum. > > > I am not seeing all the available packages I > >> can see with 'yum list available'. If that's not the right tool, then >> why is it on the menu under 'Add/Remove software'? Don't make me say >> the U-word. >> > > Click the big "List" button. > > >> Give me better Themes choices. That is a big deal...and...UBUNTU is not >> any better.... >> > > We have about a dozen in core and many more in extras. I think thats > plenty of choice apart from the easily installable themes from > art.gnome.org and kde-look.org > > > >> FIX GNOME's SCREENLOCK!!!! I want the slideshow to be configurable like >> KDE's....It USED to be! >> > > It never was. Xscreensavers was that way but it isnt in core anymore. > There is a upstream discussion on adding this feature to the new GNOME > screensaver program. > > > >> Make wireless drop dead obvious. I hate to say it, but Windows has that >> down. MOST real users are going to be on laptops and Fedora is NOT >> ready for them. >> > > Use Network Manager. It is not enabled by default yet till we get a few > features fixed. > > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2006-August/msg00081.html > > > >> That's all I can think of right now. I have poured on the gasoline and >> I am waiting for the match...hurry, the gasoline is giving me a rash. >> Oh, wait!! One more....give up on the default mail-tool being >> evolution. Thunderbird! >> > > Wont work. We need well integrated calendering functionality, Exchange > interoperability etc and ThunderBird extensions are not very mature yet. > > Rahul > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 09:27:23 +0200 > From: David Nielsen > Subject: Re: Fedora usability : a new project? > To: Discussions about development for the Fedora desktop > > Message-ID: <1155108443.2872.38.camel at price> > Content-Type: text/plain > > tir, 08 08 2006 kl. 17:16 -0500, skrev Rick Stuart > >> Provide an option to configure users with sufficient privileges so that >> they can enter their OWN password for administrative access instead of >> ROOT's. ( /usr/bin/system-config-* linked to "consolehelper" ) For a >> good model, check out UBUNTU......sorry about your toes. Something like >> /etc/consolehelpers a-la /etc/sudoers. >> > > PolicyKit should provide this functionality the right way. I don't know > if we have an ETA on this being useful but I would rather wait for a > proper fix than use priviliage escalation that can introduce problems > like horrid security . having to audit half a million lines of GTK+ code > because it now runs as root and any slight bug could take down the > system is my very definition of not funny. > > >> I really like YUM, but I REALLY think that it sucks to explain it to >> users who are new to Linux. Package manager is nice, but then there is >> that pesky root password requirement....."So, I'll just log in as root >> so I don't have to type that password!" It is miserably slow. Does >> it even connect to YUM? I am not seeing all the available packages I >> can see with 'yum list available'. If that's not the right tool, then >> why is it on the menu under 'Add/Remove software'? Don't make me say >> the U-word. >> > > You should always provide some kind of authication when installing > programs globally, not doing so is inviting all kinds of security issues. > The software manager doesn't seem slow to me, however the UI locks up > due to it not being threaded - Katz' has strong arguments against adding > that kind of complexity to the code. I think we might need to make him > compromise a bit to make the UI not appear like it died - users tend to not > like that behavior, myself included. > > Ubuntu has the basically same setup was we do. > > >> Give me better Themes choices. That is a big deal...and...UBUNTU is not >> any better.... >> > > You should join the artwork team and point out specific things that would > add to your enjoyment of Fedora, just saying "make it better" isn't really > helpful. What are the specfic issues you have and do you have ideas to > investigate. > > If you can provide a mockup it would be great if not, a lenghty explanation > and maybe referencing parts of designs on gnome-look you do like would help > us get to a default theme that was good looking while still retaining good > usability across the board. > > >> FIX GNOME's SCREENLOCK!!!! I want the slideshow to be configurable like >> KDE's....It USED to be! >> > > No it didn't, we used to use xscreensaver which had all kinds of other > problems, gnome-screensaver restored some sanity. If you want additional > features to gnome-screensaver upstream is the place to do it. I personally > fail to see why this is so huge an issue that you feel the need to scream. > > If you have a specific thing that no longer works or could be improve please > provide a better description of your issue than "fix it". It is not very > helpful for either one of us. It is also not likely to get your issue the > attention it deserves. > > >> Make wireless drop dead obvious. I hate to say it, but Windows has that >> down. MOST real users are going to be on laptops and Fedora is NOT >> ready for them. >> > > I think the solution here is Network-Manager, it is however not entirely > ready for rollout. SuSE and SLED have replaced their entire networking > system with it and it seems to work beautifully for them. This is being > worked on heavily - have no fear. It will not make FC6 as the default > but FC7 seems like the obvious place for it to be deployed - being a major > change it needs a metric shitload of testing so it needs to be deployed > early in the test cycle. > > >> That's all I can think of right now. I have poured on the gasoline and >> I am waiting for the match...hurry, the gasoline is giving me a rash. >> Oh, wait!! One more....give up on the default mail-tool being >> evolution. Thunderbird! >> > > Thunderbird isn't a suitable replacement for Evolution, we can't provide > the same functionality like Exchange integration with it. Also it doesn't > integrate as well with the underlying system as Evolution does. Another issue > to consider is migration of existing accounts to Thunderbird which isn't > working right as I recall. > > The proper solution would be to fix Evolution, maybe break it into seperate > applications so it would be easier to fix or replace in the future with > better options. Evolution sadly isn't going anywhere anytime soon. > > - David Nielsen > > > > ------------------------------ > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > > End of Fedora-desktop-list Digest, Vol 30, Issue 2 > ************************************************** > > From sundaram at redhat.com Thu Aug 10 19:55:12 2006 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 01:25:12 +0530 Subject: Execute as Root GUI Admin Interfaces In-Reply-To: <44DB7DEC.5080508@gmail.com> References: <20060809160024.7E16673464@hormel.redhat.com> <44DB7DEC.5080508@gmail.com> Message-ID: <44DB8F20.1030303@redhat.com> Hi >> > PolicyKit looks interesting based on the discussions Rahul included. > Correct me if I got it wrong, but would PolicyKit allow an administrator > to set people up so they can do certain things as administrators (like > mounting a disk) ? It looked like the user gets no challenge for > authorization if they are set up to be able to do that. I actually > think that is a problem. I think that when someone is executing with > root privileges, they should be aware of it and consider whether they > meant to do that. That is why I suggested a [SUDO]consolehelper. I am > assuming that Rahul was referring to that as being a bad model. I > agree that giving everyone this ability like UBUNTU does it is a > problem. However, I do not agree that setting policies for a user and > not reminding him/her what their action implies is any better. Administrator can set policies for users to limit or allow tasks such as mounting a disk. Administrator can set local policies to be as restrictive or as lenient as they want. Rahul From dcbw at redhat.com Thu Aug 10 20:48:56 2006 From: dcbw at redhat.com (Dan Williams) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 16:48:56 -0400 Subject: Execute as Root GUI Admin Interfaces In-Reply-To: <44DB7DEC.5080508@gmail.com> References: <20060809160024.7E16673464@hormel.redhat.com> <44DB7DEC.5080508@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1155242936.14687.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2006-08-10 at 13:41 -0500, Rick Stuart wrote: > Originally: Re: Fedora usability : a new project? (Rick Stuart) > > From: Rahul > > Bringing davidz into the discussion if he hasn't been tracking fedora-desktop-list at all... David, look below :) Dan > > Rick Stuart wrote: > > > > > I welcome this idea! I have asked many folks about what they like and > > > dis like about Linux and I only get prejudiced statements. If you sit > > > someone ( a familiar and comfortable user of Windows) in front of your > > > pride and joy 64-bit Fedora Core 5 install and invite them to try it > > > out, they will fail to see any value. If you help them find their way > > > to stuff, they will certainly hit a brick wall that you have to fix by > > > opening a terminal window, and then it's all over. > > > > > > Here are a couple of suggestions: > > > > > > Provide an option to configure users with sufficient privileges so that > > > they can enter their OWN password for administrative access instead of > > > ROOT's. ( /usr/bin/system-config-* linked to "consolehelper" ) For a > > > good model, check out UBUNTU......sorry about your toes. Something like > > > /etc/consolehelpers a-la /etc/sudoers. > > > > > > > That isnt really a good model. > > > > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-extras-list/2006-July/msg00814.htm > > > > From: David Nielsen > > > > > > > > PolicyKit should provide this functionality the right way. I don't know > > if we have an ETA on this being useful but I would rather wait for a > > proper fix than use priviliage escalation that can introduce problems > > like horrid security . having to audit half a million lines of GTK+ code > > because it now runs as root and any slight bug could take down the > > system is my very definition of not funny. > > > > > PolicyKit looks interesting based on the discussions Rahul included. > Correct me if I got it wrong, but would PolicyKit allow an > administrator to set people up so they can do certain things as > administrators (like mounting a disk) ? It looked like the user gets > no challenge for authorization if they are set up to be able to do > that. I actually think that is a problem. I think that when someone > is executing with root privileges, they should be aware of it and > consider whether they meant to do that. That is why I suggested a > [SUDO]consolehelper. I am assuming that Rahul was referring to that > as being a bad model. I agree that giving everyone this ability like > UBUNTU does it is a problem. However, I do not agree that setting > policies for a user and not reminding him/her what their action > implies is any better. > > In our corporate Windows world, we can set domain policies and local > policies that give people more administrative rights. We then invest > much more support time trying to unravel what they accidentally did > because they had elevated privileges and got no warnings when they > mis-stepped. Our Linux desktops have very few such problems even > though we have a fairly large number of "sudoers" who can do root > level tasks, but have to do so intentionally. These sudoers don't > need or want the root password, but they can do their jobs without > problems as long as they know the CLI commands to do it. We have > started reducing Windows users default admin rights and force them to > intentionally (and temporarily) elevate themselves to do admin tasks. > The biggest problem is the fact that they have to log out and in to > get the elevated rights on Windows. > > Note also that MicroSoft has started popping up a lot more warnings > asking people if they REALLY want to install the Trojan binary. > People hate it, but what can you do? > > I realize this may fit better in a security discussion, but I consider > it a basic usability issue so I am throwing it out here. > > Thanks, > > Rick > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list From davidz at redhat.com Thu Aug 10 21:27:23 2006 From: davidz at redhat.com (David Zeuthen) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 17:27:23 -0400 Subject: Execute as Root GUI Admin Interfaces In-Reply-To: <1155242936.14687.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20060809160024.7E16673464@hormel.redhat.com> <44DB7DEC.5080508@gmail.com> <1155242936.14687.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1155245243.2351.39.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> On Thu, 2006-08-10 at 16:48 -0400, Dan Williams wrote: > > PolicyKit looks interesting based on the discussions Rahul included. > > Correct me if I got it wrong, but would PolicyKit allow an > > administrator to set people up so they can do certain things as > > administrators (like mounting a disk) ? Yes. > It looked like the user gets > > no challenge for authorization if they are set up to be able to do > > that. I actually think that is a problem. I think that when someone > > is executing with root privileges, they should be aware of it and > > consider whether they meant to do that. First off, "executing with root privileges" may be the answer today, but it's not really what we want a desktop app to do. We want an app to be able to do very specific and confined tasks such as "mount a removable disk", "format a fixed disk", "configure a modem", "set the timezone", "upgrade OS with trusted packages", "install new trusted package", "install new untrusted package", whatever. If we can engineer our applications in such that it's this fine grained the chances of them doing bad things when compromised are slimmer than if they run with root privileges. So, the whole idea of PolicyKit is to split privileged apps into two parts - the UI shell (that runs unprivileged) and a privileged part that allows the unprivileged bit to call very specific methods if the caller has the right ''PolicyKit privilege''. If the caller haven't got the required privilege (for, say, changing the timezone), he may be able to prompt for it and this requires authentication, either as the super user or as the regular user. > That is why I suggested a > > [SUDO]consolehelper. I am assuming that Rahul was referring to that > > as being a bad model. I agree that giving everyone this ability like > > UBUNTU does it is a problem. However, I do not agree that setting > > policies for a user and not reminding him/her what their action > > implies is any better. I will state that consolehelper, and for that matter the scheme Ubuntu and the rest of the distros are using, is just badly broken since it makes an X11 application run as root. Yet, we still see new crap being added to the distro that does this. Hopefully (I'm an optimist by nature) that will change when we add PolicyKit to Fedora early in the FC7 timeframe (I think it's already in SUSE btw), but I'm not holding my breath so to speak - there's a lot of work left... Also, see this presentation http://people.freedesktop.org/~david/talks/system-integration-and-gnome-guadec2006-davidz.pdf for the bigger picture. See http://webcvs.freedesktop.org/hal/PolicyKit/doc/spec/polkit-spec.html?revision=1.7 http://webcvs.freedesktop.org/hal/PolicyKit/doc/spec/polkit-arch.png?revision=1.1 for more details on PolicyKt. David From stuart.cr at gmail.com Thu Aug 10 22:38:32 2006 From: stuart.cr at gmail.com (Rick Stuart) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 17:38:32 -0500 Subject: Add/Remove Software Utility In-Reply-To: <20060809160024.7E16673464@hormel.redhat.com> References: <20060809160024.7E16673464@hormel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <44DBB568.8040706@gmail.com> Original Post: Re: Fedora usability : a new project? This is not an issue for me after Rahul and David's guidance, but I did have a few minor comments. > > Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 11:45:30 +0530 > From: Rahul > > >> Rick Stuart wrote: >> I really like YUM, but I REALLY think that it sucks to explain it to >> users who are new to Linux. >> > > Why? It has a consistent command line interface and it is no worse than > any other command tool that I know of. > > http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/yum/ > > > > Like I said, I like the CLI. The user community I work with, (corporately and around my neighborhood) does not do CLI. RTFM is not an answer for them. Package manager is nice, but then there is > > that pesky root password requirement....."So, I'll just log in as root > > so I don't have to type that password!" It is miserably slow. Does > > it even connect to YUM? > Yes, It uses yum. I am not seeing all the available packages I > > can see with 'yum list available'. If that's not the right tool, then > > why is it on the menu under 'Add/Remove software'? Don't make me say > > the U-word. > Click the big "List" button. First, I will say that I did take another look at the package manager and yes it does list all installed and available apps from all my repos. The search tool works just like "yum list | grep [whatever]" which is nice. The 'Big List Button" generates a list that I could see might be imposing to a user, but if you have the viewpoint that users should not be installing software (I agree in a corporate environment) then who cares, right? > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 09:27:23 +0200 > From: David Nielsen > > > You should always provide some kind of authication when installing > programs globally, not doing so is inviting all kinds of security issues. > Agreed. If I have set a policy that this user can install software, then challenge him for his password, not Root's and, for the corporate controls, log the activity. > The software manager doesn't seem slow to me, however the UI locks up > due to it not being threaded - Katz' has strong arguments against adding > that kind of complexity to the code. I think we might need to make him > compromise a bit to make the UI not appear like it died - users tend to not > like that behavior, myself included. > > Ubuntu has the basically same setup was we do. > > - David Nielsen > All told, after looking at it again, I have no problem with pointing users at the package manger except that I REALLY don't want them using the root password. Perhaps when PolicyKit can help there, but I think the user should be challenged for his password rather than just get in to package manager. It is slow, but I compared it to Windows' Add/Remove and it is really no worse. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Thu Aug 10 22:55:54 2006 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 04:25:54 +0530 Subject: Add/Remove Software Utility In-Reply-To: <44DBB568.8040706@gmail.com> References: <20060809160024.7E16673464@hormel.redhat.com> <44DBB568.8040706@gmail.com> Message-ID: <44DBB97A.9030506@redhat.com> >> >> > Like I said, I like the CLI. The user community I work with, > (corporately and around my neighborhood) does not do CLI. RTFM is not > an answer for them. By this definition all the command line tool sucks. There is no need to single out Yum I guess. > > Click the big "List" button. > > > First, I will say that I did take another look at the package manager > and yes it does list all installed and available apps from all my > repos. The search tool works just like "yum list | grep [whatever]" > which is nice. The 'Big List Button" generates a list that I could see > might be imposing to a user, but if you have the viewpoint that users > should not be installing software (I agree in a corporate environment) > then who cares, right? Generally users can install packages from groups which is provided as the primary interface or search and install any package they want. If they do want to list all the packages, then yes the choice might be intimidating to them. Do you have any suggestions to improve the user interface? > All told, after looking at it again, I have no problem with pointing > users at the package manger except that I REALLY don't want them using > the root password. Perhaps when PolicyKit can help there, but I think > the user should be challenged for his password rather than just get in > to package manager. Yes. PolicyKit after its integrated with the rest of the system should help here. Rahul From stuart.cr at gmail.com Fri Aug 11 01:40:25 2006 From: stuart.cr at gmail.com (Rick Stuart) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 20:40:25 -0500 Subject: Add/Remove Software Utility In-Reply-To: <20060809160024.7E16673464@hormel.redhat.com> References: <20060809160024.7E16673464@hormel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <44DBE009.7090806@gmail.com> First, I will say that I did take another look at the package manager and yes it does list all installed and available apps from all my repos. The search tool works just like "yum list | grep [whatever]" which is nice. The 'Big List Button" generates a list that I could see might be imposing to a user, but if you have the viewpoint that users should not be installing software (I agree in a corporate environment) then who cares, right? Rahul Said: Generally users can install packages from groups which is provided as the primary interface or search and install any package they want. If they do want to list all the packages, then yes the choice might be intimidating to them. Do you have any suggestions to improve the user interface? I think the checks are a good way of showing what is installed. Not sure why there are two checks though. It is very straight forward to click on the apps to install. I would suggest putting a search box on the list window. I found that you can type the first few letters of the app in and it goes to that vicinity in the list which some people seem to like. A search box could also find key words in the description. Combining the search a list windows would make sense. You could do it like Thunderbird's "subject or Sender" search works. Type in a keyword and only items with that keyword show. Click the X and the entire list comes back in view. Next, I would like to know where the app listed is coming from. If I have a lot of repos set up, I might care. Also, I would like to know if there was more than one repo offering a particular RPM, but I never tried that with yum.... A new radio button that would sort by repo or source would be cool. At least showing the source in a column on the list would be useful. I like that in the list function in yum. Also, in keeping with other discussions about user privileges and software. Something we do with a tool called Marimba on the windows world is to provide a list of apps that the user can install with other available apps grayed out. To get access to the grayed out apps, they must make a request, but that way they can look to see if they exist on the YUM inventory. Any chance of sorting the apps by logical groups? Sort of like the package view, but with everything in the list. I have not seen anything in the yum outputs that could be used to do that, but wouldn't it be cool. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From splinux at fedoraproject.org Fri Aug 11 12:32:41 2006 From: splinux at fedoraproject.org (Damien Durand) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 14:32:41 +0200 Subject: About Fedora Usability Message-ID: Dear board and Fedora Usability members, I'm writing this mail to speak about the Fedora Usability project/sigs. Explain the objectifs and fix various conflicts about this. First a description : The Fedora Usability project aims to provide coherence, accessibility and intuivity for all people using Fedora Core and its associated resources. Then my goals with this project/sigs are : - Help the developer team to build coherent and easy to use applications - Help the webmaster team to provide a coherent comprehensive website - Help the documentation team to provide a coherent and comprehensive documentation How? - Track the uncoherent things in the Fedora softwares, read the Fedora contents about the documentation and websites. Once a thing is detected, this one is reported to the Usability Schedule and is fixed by a patch. Next this patch is send to the maintainer. The Usability project/sigs allows to us to study the user actions and understand how the users use the Fedora distribution and different resources. Correct me If I'm wrong but Fedora is not only a distribution for sysadmins and developers. Fedora must be usable by everyone! So it's my opinion and people who don't agree with this will not have a beer to the next fudcon ;-) I'll make a rapport about this project/sigs every weeks and send it to Thomas Chung to show the advancements. Fedora must be simple and for everyone and we make an effort whit that. Good day to all and thanks in advance, Damien Durand -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stickster at gmail.com Fri Aug 11 14:05:31 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 10:05:31 -0400 Subject: About Fedora Usability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1155305131.3409.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> > How? > > - Track the uncoherent things in the Fedora softwares, read the Fedora > contents about the documentation and websites. Once a thing is > detected, this one is reported to the Usability Schedule and is fixed > by a patch. Next this patch is send to the maintainer. > > The Usability project/sigs allows to us to study the user actions and > understand how the users use the Fedora distribution and different > resources. Correct me If I'm wrong but Fedora is not only a > distribution for sysadmins and developers. Fedora must be usable by > everyone! So it's my opinion and people who don't agree with this will > not have a beer to the next fudcon ;-) > > I'll make a rapport about this project/sigs every weeks and send it to > Thomas Chung to show the advancements. > > Fedora must be simple and for everyone and we make an effort whit > that. > > Good day to all and thanks in advance, Damien, I think the idea for a Usability SIG is a good one. (Please refer to the initiative without the "Project" name for now, since Projects have to be approved.) To get better community traction, you should flesh out this idea a little more. If you look at the draft wiki page: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DefiningProjects ...you'll see some pointers for how to define your action plan, including a list of requirements, a formation/governing strategy, and how you think the SIG's progress is to be measured. I think your best area of concentration may be keeping channels open and active with multiple upstream developers for applications that need improvement. The statements that Nicolas made about users having to do too much upstream went right to the point. Use that to guide your action plan. Be specific. But I still see a lot of grey area and possible duplication of effort in some of the goals you state: > - Help the webmaster team to provide a coherent comprehensive website How exactly does this goal fall *outside* the current Fedora Websites Project? What will Usability provide that Websites doesn't or can't? Fedora in this case is the originator and upstream, so what *exactly* will Usability do besides file bugs with Websites and track their progress? Neither of those functions warrants its own subproject IMHO. > - Help the documentation team to provide a coherent and comprehensive > documentation The same question goes for this. What will Usability SIG provide that can't be done through participating in the existing Documentation Project? -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stb52988 at gmail.com Fri Aug 11 14:31:31 2006 From: stb52988 at gmail.com (Steve Barnhart) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 10:31:31 -0400 Subject: Add/Remove Software Utility In-Reply-To: <44DBE009.7090806@gmail.com> References: <20060809160024.7E16673464@hormel.redhat.com> <44DBE009.7090806@gmail.com> Message-ID: <15ce3ec0608110731l3ce02176k5f45b2d9540130fa@mail.gmail.com> perhaps I'm the only one but doesn't pirut (I believe its called), the software installer seem a little "kidish" w/regard to the gui? There's definately nothing wrong with it being easy like that but I feel a less "crowded" gui w/out the kiddish-looking big buttons and such would make Fedora look more professional. On 8/10/06, Rick Stuart wrote: > > > > > First, I will say that I did take another look at the package manager and > yes it does list all installed and available apps from all my repos. The > search tool works just like "yum list | grep [whatever]" which is nice. The > 'Big List Button" generates a list that I could see might be imposing to a > user, but if you have the viewpoint that users should not be installing > software (I agree in a corporate environment) then who cares, right? > > Rahul Said: > Generally users can install packages from groups which is provided as the > primary interface or search and install any package they want. If they do > want to list all the packages, then yes the choice might be intimidating to > them. Do you have any suggestions to improve the user interface? > > I think the checks are a good way of showing what is installed. Not sure > why there are two checks though. It is very straight forward to click on > the apps to install. > > I would suggest putting a search box on the list window. I found that you > can type the first few letters of the app in and it goes to that vicinity in > the list which some people seem to like. A search box could also find key > words in the description. Combining the search a list windows would make > sense. You could do it like Thunderbird's "subject or Sender" search works. > Type in a keyword and only items with that keyword show. Click the X and > the entire list comes back in view. > > Next, I would like to know where the app listed is coming from. If I have > a lot of repos set up, I might care. Also, I would like to know if there > was more than one repo offering a particular RPM, but I never tried that > with yum.... A new radio button that would sort by repo or source would be > cool. At least showing the source in a column on the list would be useful. > I like that in the list function in yum. > > Also, in keeping with other discussions about user privileges and software. > Something we do with a tool called Marimba on the windows world is to > provide a list of apps that the user can install with other available apps > grayed out. To get access to the grayed out apps, they must make a request, > but that way they can look to see if they exist on the YUM inventory. > > Any chance of sorting the apps by logical groups? Sort of like the package > view, but with everything in the list. I have not seen anything in the yum > outputs that could be used to do that, but wouldn't it be cool. > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > > -- Steve From stb52988 at gmail.com Fri Aug 11 16:08:03 2006 From: stb52988 at gmail.com (Steve Barnhart) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 12:08:03 -0400 Subject: Fedora Artwork Message-ID: <15ce3ec0608110908u48e35dd4w143c7549d39a2067@mail.gmail.com> I personally do not prefer the "bubbly" theme introduced in recent versions of Fedora and am not immediately fond of the artwork path the Fedora team seems to be taking. To me it seems to be departing away from the regular/old redhat-artwork team which imo is a bad thing. I liked bluecurve when it first came out and many people did, but in any way it did create A LOT of attention onto Redhat. It was a nice and professional theme and still looks pretty good today except for the use of grey and "blah" buttons. The icon theme though is still nice and the artwork (GDm theme, splash screen etc.) shown in RHEL4 is more of the kind of stuff I would like to see instead of the "kiddish" kind of look Fedora seems to be taking on. I believe many want a professional looking distro and Redhat/Fedora was/is that and I would like if perhaps we could take some different directions in the artwork again, perhaps more in tune to what RHEL team does. I have looked at the new icon theme (Echo) and I think I like it and I even like the Bluecurve GDM theme shipped w/FC5 as well as the splash screen for GNOME. Its the bubbily/light blue theme and such that is in the new release that I do not like. Hopefully we can discuss this more. -- Steve From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Fri Aug 11 16:27:02 2006 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 11:27:02 -0500 Subject: Fedora Artwork In-Reply-To: <15ce3ec0608110908u48e35dd4w143c7549d39a2067@mail.gmail.com> References: <15ce3ec0608110908u48e35dd4w143c7549d39a2067@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <44DCAFD6.9010807@prodigy.net.mx> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Steve Barnhart escribi?: > I personally do not prefer the "bubbly" theme introduced in recent > versions of Fedora and am not immediately fond of the artwork path the > Fedora team seems to be taking. To me it seems to be departing away > from the regular/old redhat-artwork team which imo is a bad thing. I > liked bluecurve when it first came out and many people did, but in any > way it did create A LOT of attention onto Redhat. It was a nice and > professional theme and still looks pretty good today except for the > use of grey and "blah" buttons. > > The icon theme though is still nice and the artwork (GDm theme, splash > screen etc.) shown in RHEL4 is more of the kind of stuff I would like > to see instead of the "kiddish" kind of look Fedora seems to be taking > on. I believe many want a professional looking distro and > Redhat/Fedora was/is that and I would like if perhaps we could take > some different directions in the artwork again, perhaps more in tune > to what RHEL team does. I have looked at the new icon theme (Echo) and > I think I like it and I even like the Bluecurve GDM theme shipped > w/FC5 as well as the splash screen for GNOME. Its the bubbily/light > blue theme and such that is in the new release that I do not like. > Hopefully we can discuss this more. > I'm not too fond of the "bubbling" theme, however I must admit that in context it does look rather nice. I like what I've seen of Echo thus far, and to be in tune with it, I think the bubbling theme kind of interferes (IMO), I'm sure there are some good ideas on how to integrate the brand "fedora" and the logo into a default desktop/splash/GDM theme besides the bubbling presence it has today (seems like an ad for Alkazelzer or a soda IMO) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFE3K/WXM+XOp70dwoRAhZIAJ9/w8TXZgsnCU9Ew0B+Pht1Gx7RFACfUTcm 6xkYUlxiZxk3+a6DyT5V0xY= =4E4D -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From splinux at fedoraproject.org Fri Aug 11 20:18:03 2006 From: splinux at fedoraproject.org (Damien Durand) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 22:18:03 +0200 Subject: About Fedora Usability In-Reply-To: <1155305131.3409.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1155305131.3409.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: +1 Well after a good reflection, the documentation and website point are uncoherent, I think it's too hard and limited this project to fedora sofwares is better. The answers about my strategy : - *"Who* the new project would serve and who will lead the project" : The futur project is devote to simplify the life of Fedora users about the fedora use and I think I'll lead this project. - *"What* the goals and scope of the new project would be" : Provide coherence, accessibility and intuivity to all people using Fedora Core. - *"When* the project can be considered a success" : I don't know really, I haven't an idea for that and I think the answer willl be false. - "*Where* the project will lead and where it will fit into the Fedora Project" : The project will return fedora simpler and coherent and will allow a better feedback with the user. *- "Why* the idea warrants the creation of a new project within the Fedora Project" : Because there's a lot of hard work and I don't disturb any other Fedora project. ** 2006/8/11, Paul W. Frields : > > > How? > > > > - Track the uncoherent things in the Fedora softwares, read the Fedora > > contents about the documentation and websites. Once a thing is > > detected, this one is reported to the Usability Schedule and is fixed > > by a patch. Next this patch is send to the maintainer. > > > > The Usability project/sigs allows to us to study the user actions and > > understand how the users use the Fedora distribution and different > > resources. Correct me If I'm wrong but Fedora is not only a > > distribution for sysadmins and developers. Fedora must be usable by > > everyone! So it's my opinion and people who don't agree with this will > > not have a beer to the next fudcon ;-) > > > > I'll make a rapport about this project/sigs every weeks and send it to > > Thomas Chung to show the advancements. > > > > Fedora must be simple and for everyone and we make an effort whit > > that. > > > > Good day to all and thanks in advance, > > Damien, > > I think the idea for a Usability SIG is a good one. (Please refer to > the initiative without the "Project" name for now, since Projects have > to be approved.) To get better community traction, you should flesh out > this idea a little more. If you look at the draft wiki page: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DefiningProjects > > ...you'll see some pointers for how to define your action plan, > including a list of requirements, a formation/governing strategy, and > how you think the SIG's progress is to be measured. I think your best > area of concentration may be keeping channels open and active with > multiple upstream developers for applications that need improvement. > The statements that Nicolas made about users having to do too much > upstream went right to the point. Use that to guide your action plan. > Be specific. > > But I still see a lot of grey area and possible duplication of effort in > some of the goals you state: > > > - Help the webmaster team to provide a coherent comprehensive website > > How exactly does this goal fall *outside* the current Fedora Websites > Project? What will Usability provide that Websites doesn't or can't? > Fedora in this case is the originator and upstream, so what *exactly* > will Usability do besides file bugs with Websites and track their > progress? Neither of those functions warrants its own subproject IMHO. > > > - Help the documentation team to provide a coherent and comprehensive > > documentation > > The same question goes for this. What will Usability SIG provide that > can't be done through participating in the existing Documentation > Project? > > -- > Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ > gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 > Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board > Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject > > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeffy5 at optonline.net Fri Aug 11 21:48:48 2006 From: jeffy5 at optonline.net (Jeffrey D. Yuille) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 17:48:48 -0400 Subject: Fedora Artwork In-Reply-To: <15ce3ec0608110908u48e35dd4w143c7549d39a2067@mail.gmail.com> References: <15ce3ec0608110908u48e35dd4w143c7549d39a2067@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <44DCFB40.1010109@optonline.net> Steve Barnhart wrote: > I personally do not prefer the "bubbly" theme introduced in recent > versions of Fedora and am not immediately fond of the artwork path the > Fedora team seems to be taking. To me it seems to be departing away > from the regular/old redhat-artwork team which imo is a bad thing. I > liked bluecurve when it first came out and many people did, but in any > way it did create A LOT of attention onto Redhat. It was a nice and > professional theme and still looks pretty good today except for the > use of grey and "blah" buttons. > > The icon theme though is still nice and the artwork (GDm theme, splash > screen etc.) shown in RHEL4 is more of the kind of stuff I would like > to see instead of the "kiddish" kind of look Fedora seems to be taking > on. I believe many want a professional looking distro and > Redhat/Fedora was/is that and I would like if perhaps we could take > some different directions in the artwork again, perhaps more in tune > to what RHEL team does. I have looked at the new icon theme (Echo) and > I think I like it and I even like the Bluecurve GDM theme shipped > w/FC5 as well as the splash screen for GNOME. Its the bubbily/light > blue theme and such that is in the new release that I do not like. > Hopefully we can discuss this more. > Amen to that, I like the old themes in FC4, FC3, etc. Why the maintainers decided to depart from that, I have no idea. Jeff From andrewz at springsrescuemission.org Tue Aug 15 00:01:40 2006 From: andrewz at springsrescuemission.org (Andrew Ziem) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 18:01:40 -0600 Subject: usability: unplugged ethernet cable on an office desktop Message-ID: <44E10EE4.9010200@springsrescuemission.org> I hope my two cents here is what the Fedora Usability Project is looking for. For office desktop users, there are several usability issues with the old "ethernet cable is unplugged" problem. These problems affect a "normal" Fedora Core 5 office computer that uses ethernet, DHCP, NIS (for authentication), and NFS (especially for users' home directories). Some of the problems also affect (a) home users and (b) situations where the cable is plugged in but the network services are unavailable. 1. If the computer starts with the cable unplugged, then there's a start-up message like "Determining IP information for eth0:. Failed or link not present. Check cable?" First, some people may not read it because the startup messages are a bunch of technical mumbo-jumbo. Second, some people may be getting a cup of coffee instead of watching the screen during (long) startup process. 2. If the ethernet doesn't work at startup, it dies forever. If I plug in my ethernet cable some time later after startup, nothing happens. Even if the user can figure out the problem, it seems the user has to have root privileges to do "service network restart" to get the network back up. 3. If ypbind can't connect at startup, it just dies forever. Even if the user can figure out the problem, it seems the user has to have root privileges to do "service ypbind restart". 4. If NFS mounting fails at startup, it stays unmounted until manually mounted. Even if the user can figure out the problem, it seems the user has to have root privileges to do mount the directories. Though there is a setting in /etc/fstab to allow users to mount directories without root privileges, it also allows them to unmount the directories. 5. If a user tries to log in when the system is suffering from the above problems, GDM just tells him his username or password is incorrect. This error message is misleading: the more fundamental problem is related to networking. Based on these problems, here's what would reduce confusion, eliminate help desk calls, and make people happy: 1. If the network cable is unplugged and the system requires networking for authentication (NIS), then display a warning in GDM. 2. Better yet, cache authentication from ypbind. Supposedly, there are ways to do it, but the only way it's ever worked for me is to configure the system as a slave NIS server. 3. If the user is already logged in when the ethernet network goes down, display from the system tray using the new pop-up notification system in Gnome 2.14. Also, a system tray icon may be helpful if the user is away from his desk when the problem happens. 4. If the DHCP server/NIS server/NFS server is unavailable when the system starts but is available later, the system should do something roughly equivalent to "service network restart; service ypbind restart" and then mount NFS drives. Basically, DHCP, ypbind, and NFS mounts should be more resilient. As a quick competitive analysis, a Windows 2000 system does not suffer any of these problems while not requiring any extra configuration. Andrew From notting at redhat.com Tue Aug 15 00:23:31 2006 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 20:23:31 -0400 Subject: usability: unplugged ethernet cable on an office desktop In-Reply-To: <44E10EE4.9010200@springsrescuemission.org> References: <44E10EE4.9010200@springsrescuemission.org> Message-ID: <20060815002331.GB28686@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Andrew Ziem (andrewz at springsrescuemission.org) said: > 1. If the computer starts with the cable unplugged, then there's a > start-up message like "Determining IP information for eth0:. Failed or > link not present. Check cable?" First, some people may not read it > because the startup messages are a bunch of technical mumbo-jumbo. > Second, some people may be getting a cup of coffee instead of watching > the screen during (long) startup process. Use NetworkManager. > 2. If the ethernet doesn't work at startup, it dies forever. If I plug > in my ethernet cable some time later after startup, nothing happens. > Even if the user can figure out the problem, it seems the user has to > have root privileges to do "service network restart" to get the network > back up. Use NetworkManager. :) > 3. If ypbind can't connect at startup, it just dies forever. Even if > the user can figure out the problem, it seems the user has to have root > privileges to do "service ypbind restart". This is best solved with proper dependency resolution in the initscripts. > 4. If NFS mounting fails at startup, it stays unmounted until manually > mounted. Even if the user can figure out the problem, it seems the user > has to have root privileges to do mount the directories. Though there > is a setting in /etc/fstab to allow users to mount directories without > root privileges, it also allows them to unmount the directories. Same here > Based on these problems, here's what would reduce confusion, eliminate > help desk calls, and make people happy: > > 1. If the network cable is unplugged and the system requires networking > for authentication (NIS), then display a warning in GDM. > > 2. Better yet, cache authentication from ypbind. Supposedly, there are > ways to do it, but the only way it's ever worked for me is to configure > the system as a slave NIS server. See pam_ccreds. > 3. If the user is already logged in when the ethernet network goes down, > display from the system tray using the new pop-up notification system in > Gnome 2.14. Also, a system tray icon may be helpful if the user is away > from his desk when the problem happens. Use NetworkManager. (Yes, I'm a broken record here.) Bill From david at lovesunix.net Tue Aug 15 05:04:07 2006 From: david at lovesunix.net (David Nielsen) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 07:04:07 +0200 Subject: usability: unplugged ethernet cable on an office desktop In-Reply-To: <20060815002331.GB28686@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <44E10EE4.9010200@springsrescuemission.org> <20060815002331.GB28686@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1155618247.15197.7.camel@price> man, 14 08 2006 kl. 20:23 -0400, skrev Bill Nottingham: > Use NetworkManager. (Yes, I'm a broken record here.) > > Bill Pretty much Bill, so pray tell us when exactly will NM be ready for default deployment in Fedora like say OpenSuSE/SLED does. Untill that glorious day these concerns are perfectly valid and a perfect indicator as to just how much we need a fully functional NM implementation suitable for the core Fedora use cases. - David Nielsen From notting at redhat.com Tue Aug 15 05:22:36 2006 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 01:22:36 -0400 Subject: usability: unplugged ethernet cable on an office desktop In-Reply-To: <1155618247.15197.7.camel@price> References: <44E10EE4.9010200@springsrescuemission.org> <20060815002331.GB28686@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1155618247.15197.7.camel@price> Message-ID: <20060815052236.GA3424@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> David Nielsen (david at lovesunix.net) said: > > Use NetworkManager. (Yes, I'm a broken record here.) > > Pretty much Bill, so pray tell us when exactly will NM be ready for > default deployment in Fedora like say OpenSuSE/SLED does. Untill that > glorious day these concerns are perfectly valid and a perfect indicator > as to just how much we need a fully functional NM implementation > suitable for the core Fedora use cases. If you want to deploy a desktop in such a configuration how does: chkconfig --level 345 network off chckonfig --level 345 NetworkManager on not work for you? Bill From david at lovesunix.net Tue Aug 15 05:50:05 2006 From: david at lovesunix.net (David Nielsen) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 07:50:05 +0200 Subject: usability: unplugged ethernet cable on an office desktop In-Reply-To: <20060815052236.GA3424@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <44E10EE4.9010200@springsrescuemission.org> <20060815002331.GB28686@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1155618247.15197.7.camel@price> <20060815052236.GA3424@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1155621005.15197.9.camel@price> tir, 15 08 2006 kl. 01:22 -0400, skrev Bill Nottingham: > David Nielsen (david at lovesunix.net) said: > > > Use NetworkManager. (Yes, I'm a broken record here.) > > > > Pretty much Bill, so pray tell us when exactly will NM be ready for > > default deployment in Fedora like say OpenSuSE/SLED does. Untill that > > glorious day these concerns are perfectly valid and a perfect indicator > > as to just how much we need a fully functional NM implementation > > suitable for the core Fedora use cases. > > If you want to deploy a desktop in such a configuration how does: > > chkconfig --level 345 network off > chckonfig --level 345 NetworkManager on > > not work for you? My point was that we don't yet do this by default which means the concerns still apply to any default case for Fedora. And I was wondering when we might see NetworkMAnager be deployed as the standard solution for networking, I'm hoping for FC7. - David From roguexz at gmail.com Tue Aug 15 07:55:30 2006 From: roguexz at gmail.com (Rogue) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 00:55:30 -0700 Subject: Regarding shortcut keys Message-ID: <44E17DF2.9020908@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dcbw at redhat.com Tue Aug 15 11:31:09 2006 From: dcbw at redhat.com (Dan Williams) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 07:31:09 -0400 Subject: usability: unplugged ethernet cable on an office desktop In-Reply-To: <1155618247.15197.7.camel@price> References: <44E10EE4.9010200@springsrescuemission.org> <20060815002331.GB28686@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1155618247.15197.7.camel@price> Message-ID: <1155641469.2898.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2006-08-15 at 07:04 +0200, David Nielsen wrote: > man, 14 08 2006 kl. 20:23 -0400, skrev Bill Nottingham: > > > Use NetworkManager. (Yes, I'm a broken record here.) > > > > Bill > > Pretty much Bill, so pray tell us when exactly will NM be ready for > default deployment in Fedora like say OpenSuSE/SLED does. Untill that SUSE doesn't have that many custom patches for NetworkManager, they pretty much ship a stock version. So the base functionality isn't the same. What they have chosen to do is just flip the switch, turn it on by default, and people then live with it or turn it off. They just flipped the switch, and seem to be doing fine so far. [1] Dan [1] That doesn't mean it would be fine for us, of course. But it's a data point. > glorious day these concerns are perfectly valid and a perfect indicator > as to just how much we need a fully functional NM implementation > suitable for the core Fedora use cases. > > - David Nielsen > From stickster at gmail.com Tue Aug 15 13:39:41 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 09:39:41 -0400 Subject: Regarding shortcut keys In-Reply-To: <44E17DF2.9020908@gmail.com> References: <44E17DF2.9020908@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1155649181.14705.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2006-08-15 at 00:55 -0700, Rogue wrote: > Hi All, > > May be I am a novice out here and don't know if something is wrong > here. I have FC 5 (upgraded from FC 4) on my laptop. I tend to get > irritated with the Keyboard Shortcuts application. > > 1. There is no way to reset the key value to disabled. Either I am > extremely blind in finding that out, but pressing escape key when the > shortcut selection is active takes the escape key as the input. It > would be great if I had an option, either via a context menu or via a > UI widget like a context-sensitive button that would allow me to reset > the value to "Default / Disabled" I think the dialog windows tells you that you just press the Backspace key to do this. > 2. I can not combine the windows key with another key when defining > the shortcut. This i guess is something that I am overlooking but any > information on this would be great. I suppose something in your keymap would let you use this key like a Shift, Alt, or Ctrl, but I've no idea how, sorry. Hopefully someone has an answer for this part. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Tue Aug 15 13:52:47 2006 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 19:22:47 +0530 Subject: usability: unplugged ethernet cable on an office desktop In-Reply-To: <1155641469.2898.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <44E10EE4.9010200@springsrescuemission.org> <20060815002331.GB28686@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1155618247.15197.7.camel@price> <1155641469.2898.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <44E1D1AF.6060106@redhat.com> Dan Williams wrote: > SUSE doesn't have that many custom patches for NetworkManager, they > pretty much ship a stock version. So the base functionality isn't the > same. What they have chosen to do is just flip the switch, turn it on > by default, and people then live with it or turn it off. > > They just flipped the switch, and seem to be doing fine so far. [1] > > Dan > > [1] That doesn't mean it would be fine for us, of course. But it's a > data point. > Without any deep understanding of the issues I would say we can do the same for FC6 and update the missing features later. Rahul From dcbw at redhat.com Tue Aug 15 14:00:57 2006 From: dcbw at redhat.com (Dan Williams) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 10:00:57 -0400 Subject: usability: unplugged ethernet cable on an office desktop In-Reply-To: <1155641469.2898.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <44E10EE4.9010200@springsrescuemission.org> <20060815002331.GB28686@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1155618247.15197.7.camel@price> <1155641469.2898.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1155650458.2713.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2006-08-15 at 07:31 -0400, Dan Williams wrote: > On Tue, 2006-08-15 at 07:04 +0200, David Nielsen wrote: > > man, 14 08 2006 kl. 20:23 -0400, skrev Bill Nottingham: > > > > > Use NetworkManager. (Yes, I'm a broken record here.) > > > > > > Bill > > > > Pretty much Bill, so pray tell us when exactly will NM be ready for > > default deployment in Fedora like say OpenSuSE/SLED does. Untill that > > SUSE doesn't have that many custom patches for NetworkManager, they > pretty much ship a stock version. So the base functionality isn't the This should read "So the base functionality _is_ the same". > same. What they have chosen to do is just flip the switch, turn it on > by default, and people then live with it or turn it off. > > They just flipped the switch, and seem to be doing fine so far. [1] > > Dan > > [1] That doesn't mean it would be fine for us, of course. But it's a > data point. > > > glorious day these concerns are perfectly valid and a perfect indicator > > as to just how much we need a fully functional NM implementation > > suitable for the core Fedora use cases. > > > > - David Nielsen > > > From david at fubar.dk Tue Aug 15 16:33:03 2006 From: david at fubar.dk (David Zeuthen) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 12:33:03 -0400 Subject: usability: unplugged ethernet cable on an office desktop In-Reply-To: <1155621005.15197.9.camel@price> References: <44E10EE4.9010200@springsrescuemission.org> <20060815002331.GB28686@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1155618247.15197.7.camel@price> <20060815052236.GA3424@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1155621005.15197.9.camel@price> Message-ID: <1155659583.2434.20.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> On Tue, 2006-08-15 at 07:50 +0200, David Nielsen wrote: > My point was that we don't yet do this by default which means the > concerns still apply to any default case for Fedora. Perhaps what the world needs is a derived Fedora Core distribution tailored for the desktop. Same packages [1], few patches [2], just different behaviour out of the box more suited for the desktop. Certainly a lot easier trying to explain the powers that be ... things like it's easier for servers admins to chkconfig --level 345 network on chckonfig --level 345 NetworkManager off instead of asking people installing a desktop to do chkconfig --level 345 network off chckonfig --level 345 NetworkManager on as the latter category of people is not really UNIX savy. Doing a derived distro for the desktop would allow us to care more about the desktop without wasting time educating other stake holders in Fedora that we need this or that change for the desktop to work well. Maybe the desktop needs a break from the rest of the distro. Just a thought. David [1] : well, all the daily crob jobs like updatedb etc. plus much more would have to go :-) [2] : maybe that glibc patch to reread /etc/resolv.conf so we don't have to run bind for NetworkManager in the default install :-) From sundaram at redhat.com Tue Aug 15 16:40:55 2006 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 22:10:55 +0530 Subject: usability: unplugged ethernet cable on an office desktop In-Reply-To: <1155659583.2434.20.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> References: <44E10EE4.9010200@springsrescuemission.org> <20060815002331.GB28686@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1155618247.15197.7.camel@price> <20060815052236.GA3424@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1155621005.15197.9.camel@price> <1155659583.2434.20.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <44E1F917.6090004@redhat.com> David Zeuthen wrote: > [1] : well, all the daily crob jobs like updatedb etc. plus much more > would have to go :-) Not very relevant to larger idea of a derived distro which might very well be a good thing to try but we dont run updatedb cron by default for a while now. Rahul From david at fubar.dk Tue Aug 15 16:56:35 2006 From: david at fubar.dk (David Zeuthen) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 12:56:35 -0400 Subject: usability: unplugged ethernet cable on an office desktop In-Reply-To: <44E1F917.6090004@redhat.com> References: <44E10EE4.9010200@springsrescuemission.org> <20060815002331.GB28686@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1155618247.15197.7.camel@price> <20060815052236.GA3424@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1155621005.15197.9.camel@price> <1155659583.2434.20.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> <44E1F917.6090004@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1155660995.2434.30.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> On Tue, 2006-08-15 at 22:10 +0530, Rahul wrote: > David Zeuthen wrote: > > > [1] : well, all the daily crob jobs like updatedb etc. plus much more > > would have to go :-) > > Not very relevant to larger idea of a derived distro which might very > well be a good thing to try but we dont run updatedb cron by default for > a while now. Well, I'm aware of that, but the script is still installed with tons of other stuff that we don't need on a modern desktop [1]. There's so many things we have right now that we don't need in a desktop distro. For example, the very idea of using anaconda to install the OS is just wrong in 2006. The way you want to do this (and Ubuntu is doing this already) is clearly to have a bootable CD with a "Install OS to hard disk" icon that does what you want. Nothing more, nothing less. This, and tons of other things e.g. krh's plymouth stuff, is not something I personally want to try in the context of Fedora - I'd much rather spend my time working on the bits to actually enable this (and I am) rather than argue with the powers that be what the implications of doing this is for arcane platforms like ia64 or s390 :-) David [1] : sure, servers or the UNIX people might need it. They can just install Fedora or, who knows, maybe a derived distro tailored for them :-) From david at fubar.dk Tue Aug 15 17:00:16 2006 From: david at fubar.dk (David Zeuthen) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 13:00:16 -0400 Subject: usability: unplugged ethernet cable on an office desktop In-Reply-To: <1155660995.2434.30.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> References: <44E10EE4.9010200@springsrescuemission.org> <20060815002331.GB28686@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1155618247.15197.7.camel@price> <20060815052236.GA3424@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1155621005.15197.9.camel@price> <1155659583.2434.20.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> <44E1F917.6090004@redhat.com> <1155660995.2434.30.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <1155661216.2434.33.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> On Tue, 2006-08-15 at 12:56 -0400, David Zeuthen wrote: > For example, the very idea of using anaconda to install the OS is just > wrong in 2006. The way you want to do this (and Ubuntu is doing this > already) is clearly to have a bootable CD with a "Install OS to hard > disk" icon that does what you want. Nothing more, nothing less. Of course, I meant a livecd here. So you could actually try out the bits in the OS e.g. Firefox, NetworkManager, 3d apps etc. etc.. So, you know, you can make sure the OS works on your hardware before installing it. David From sundaram at redhat.com Tue Aug 15 17:08:20 2006 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 22:38:20 +0530 Subject: usability: unplugged ethernet cable on an office desktop In-Reply-To: <1155660995.2434.30.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> References: <44E10EE4.9010200@springsrescuemission.org> <20060815002331.GB28686@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1155618247.15197.7.camel@price> <20060815052236.GA3424@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1155621005.15197.9.camel@price> <1155659583.2434.20.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> <44E1F917.6090004@redhat.com> <1155660995.2434.30.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <44E1FF84.5010408@redhat.com> David Zeuthen wrote: > On Tue, 2006-08-15 at 22:10 +0530, Rahul wrote: >> David Zeuthen wrote: >> >>> [1] : well, all the daily crob jobs like updatedb etc. plus much more >>> would have to go :-) >> Not very relevant to larger idea of a derived distro which might very >> well be a good thing to try but we dont run updatedb cron by default for >> a while now. > > Well, I'm aware of that, but the script is still installed with tons of > other stuff that we don't need on a modern desktop [1]. There's so many > things we have right now that we don't need in a desktop distro. > > For example, the very idea of using anaconda to install the OS is just > wrong in 2006. The way you want to do this (and Ubuntu is doing this > already) is clearly to have a bootable CD with a "Install OS to hard > disk" icon that does what you want. Nothing more, nothing less. They do have a traditional style installer too. I was discussing the Live CD with installer option in fedora-livecd list and Jeremy Katz didnt appear too keen on it. However I completely agree with you on having this atleast as a option. If we have enough people willing to do a Fedora Desktop derivative, then lets just do that. We are going down that path of enabling such things to happen anyway. Rahul From notting at redhat.com Tue Aug 15 17:15:46 2006 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 13:15:46 -0400 Subject: usability: unplugged ethernet cable on an office desktop In-Reply-To: <1155661216.2434.33.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> References: <44E10EE4.9010200@springsrescuemission.org> <20060815002331.GB28686@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1155618247.15197.7.camel@price> <20060815052236.GA3424@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1155621005.15197.9.camel@price> <1155659583.2434.20.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> <44E1F917.6090004@redhat.com> <1155660995.2434.30.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> <1155661216.2434.33.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <20060815171546.GA8663@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> David Zeuthen (david at fubar.dk) said: > On Tue, 2006-08-15 at 12:56 -0400, David Zeuthen wrote: > > For example, the very idea of using anaconda to install the OS is just > > wrong in 2006. The way you want to do this (and Ubuntu is doing this > > already) is clearly to have a bootable CD with a "Install OS to hard > > disk" icon that does what you want. Nothing more, nothing less. > > Of course, I meant a livecd here. So you could actually try out the bits > in the OS e.g. Firefox, NetworkManager, 3d apps etc. etc.. So, you know, > you can make sure the OS works on your hardware before installing it. No, you make sure the OS has the applications for your needs before installing it. It obviously should work on all your hardware as a matter of course. :) Bill From david at lovesunix.net Tue Aug 15 17:43:14 2006 From: david at lovesunix.net (David Nielsen) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 19:43:14 +0200 Subject: usability: unplugged ethernet cable on an office desktop In-Reply-To: <44E1FF84.5010408@redhat.com> References: <44E10EE4.9010200@springsrescuemission.org> <20060815002331.GB28686@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1155618247.15197.7.camel@price> <20060815052236.GA3424@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1155621005.15197.9.camel@price> <1155659583.2434.20.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> <44E1F917.6090004@redhat.com> <1155660995.2434.30.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> <44E1FF84.5010408@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1155663794.2677.13.camel@price> tir, 15 08 2006 kl. 22:38 +0530, skrev Rahul: > David Zeuthen wrote: > > On Tue, 2006-08-15 at 22:10 +0530, Rahul wrote: > >> David Zeuthen wrote: > >> > >>> [1] : well, all the daily crob jobs like updatedb etc. plus much more > >>> would have to go :-) > >> Not very relevant to larger idea of a derived distro which might very > >> well be a good thing to try but we dont run updatedb cron by default for > >> a while now. > > > > Well, I'm aware of that, but the script is still installed with tons of > > other stuff that we don't need on a modern desktop [1]. There's so many > > things we have right now that we don't need in a desktop distro. > > > > For example, the very idea of using anaconda to install the OS is just > > wrong in 2006. The way you want to do this (and Ubuntu is doing this > > already) is clearly to have a bootable CD with a "Install OS to hard > > disk" icon that does what you want. Nothing more, nothing less. > > They do have a traditional style installer too. I was discussing the > Live CD with installer option in fedora-livecd list and Jeremy Katz > didnt appear too keen on it. However I completely agree with you on > having this atleast as a option. If we have enough people willing to do > a Fedora Desktop derivative, then lets just do that. We are going down > that path of enabling such things to happen anyway. I would definitely lend any help I can to such a project, I use Fedora exclusively as my desktop OS so I have a great interest in seeing it be all it can be even if that means taking it out of the context of the regular Fedora distribution. I don't especially see why we couldn't do it within Fedora but if it's preferred to do it in a seperate sub project then that would be fine by me. I'm however not a big fan of livecd installers, I think livecds are great for testing but if I want to install something then I'm in favor of the "old school" Fedora method. It just seems cleaner to me. Also the installers of that kind I've tried so far aren't really all that good. I recently played with the Ubuntu installer and it doesn't support half the nice things Anaconda does, e.g. I was completely unable to perform the some what simple task of setting up my two 400gig drives in a RAID, let alone up LVM on top of that. Sure that could be added but we have that in a perfectly fine form within Anaconda already. But Fedora would make a great foundation for a top of the line secure desktop with all the lastest in cool technology for that market. NetworkManager just being one of them, I could see us having fun with stuff like Galago and Telepathy, there are plenty of areas where the desktop experience can be improved. - David Nielsen From david at fubar.dk Tue Aug 15 18:22:58 2006 From: david at fubar.dk (David Zeuthen) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 14:22:58 -0400 Subject: usability: unplugged ethernet cable on an office desktop In-Reply-To: <1155663794.2677.13.camel@price> References: <44E10EE4.9010200@springsrescuemission.org> <20060815002331.GB28686@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1155618247.15197.7.camel@price> <20060815052236.GA3424@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1155621005.15197.9.camel@price> <1155659583.2434.20.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> <44E1F917.6090004@redhat.com> <1155660995.2434.30.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> <44E1FF84.5010408@redhat.com> <1155663794.2677.13.camel@price> Message-ID: <1155666178.2434.51.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> On Tue, 2006-08-15 at 19:43 +0200, David Nielsen wrote: > I was completely unable to perform > the some what simple task of setting up my two 400gig drives in a RAID, > let alone up LVM on top of that. Sure that could be added but we have > that in a perfectly fine form within Anaconda already. The really funny thing is that I agree that Anaconda excels at this point. However, it's really way beyond me why this great functionality is restricted to install time only. Why can't I do RAID and LVM easily from the desktop to setup external drives? (Sure, you can say system-config-lvm is one answer for LVM at least but that leaves RAID out of the question.) That's why I started writing a Disk Utility for GNOME - the plan is for it to work much like Mac OS X's Disk Uility and also do RAID / LVM, here's a very early screenshot http://people.freedesktop.org/~david/gdu-2.png It uses HAL and PolicyKit so we'll also get out of that "run X11 apps as root" trap plus once we teach HAL about RAID / LVM we can add options to g-v-m such as [ ] Assemble RAID arrays when hotplugged [ ] Set up Logical Volumes when hotplugged etc. etc. David From david at lovesunix.net Tue Aug 15 18:27:32 2006 From: david at lovesunix.net (David Nielsen) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 20:27:32 +0200 Subject: usability: unplugged ethernet cable on an office desktop In-Reply-To: <1155666178.2434.51.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> References: <44E10EE4.9010200@springsrescuemission.org> <20060815002331.GB28686@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1155618247.15197.7.camel@price> <20060815052236.GA3424@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1155621005.15197.9.camel@price> <1155659583.2434.20.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> <44E1F917.6090004@redhat.com> <1155660995.2434.30.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> <44E1FF84.5010408@redhat.com> <1155663794.2677.13.camel@price> <1155666178.2434.51.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <1155666452.2677.22.camel@price> tir, 15 08 2006 kl. 14:22 -0400, skrev David Zeuthen: > On Tue, 2006-08-15 at 19:43 +0200, David Nielsen wrote: > > I was completely unable to perform > > the some what simple task of setting up my two 400gig drives in a RAID, > > let alone up LVM on top of that. Sure that could be added but we have > > that in a perfectly fine form within Anaconda already. > > The really funny thing is that I agree that Anaconda excels at this > point. However, it's really way beyond me why this great functionality > is restricted to install time only. Why can't I do RAID and LVM easily > from the desktop to setup external drives? > > (Sure, you can say system-config-lvm is one answer for LVM at least but > that leaves RAID out of the question.) > > That's why I started writing a Disk Utility for GNOME - the plan is for > it to work much like Mac OS X's Disk Uility and also do RAID / LVM, > here's a very early screenshot > > http://people.freedesktop.org/~david/gdu-2.png > > It uses HAL and PolicyKit so we'll also get out of that "run X11 apps as > root" trap plus once we teach HAL about RAID / LVM we can add options to > g-v-m such as > > [ ] Assemble RAID arrays when hotplugged > [ ] Set up Logical Volumes when hotplugged > > etc. etc. That looks awesome, it is also a testament to your lack of blogging about cool stuff recently. - A lesser cool David From forms at heartseed.org Tue Aug 15 18:40:28 2006 From: forms at heartseed.org (forms) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 11:40:28 -0700 Subject: Fedora Artwork In-Reply-To: <44DCFB40.1010109@optonline.net> References: <15ce3ec0608110908u48e35dd4w143c7549d39a2067@mail.gmail.com> <44DCFB40.1010109@optonline.net> Message-ID: <44E2151C.3070709@heartseed.org> Jeffrey D. Yuille wrote: > Steve Barnhart wrote: >> I personally do not prefer the "bubbly" theme introduced in recent >> versions of Fedora and am not immediately fond of the artwork path the >> Fedora team seems to be taking. while I might understand the issue some may have of bubbly, I personally LOVE it and find it soothing and basically overall showing that fedora 'cares' maybe :)...ok that could be a stretch but I think it fits well ;) cheers g.leej(nl) From notting at redhat.com Tue Aug 15 18:48:29 2006 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 14:48:29 -0400 Subject: usability: unplugged ethernet cable on an office desktop In-Reply-To: <1155666178.2434.51.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> References: <20060815002331.GB28686@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1155618247.15197.7.camel@price> <20060815052236.GA3424@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1155621005.15197.9.camel@price> <1155659583.2434.20.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> <44E1F917.6090004@redhat.com> <1155660995.2434.30.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> <44E1FF84.5010408@redhat.com> <1155663794.2677.13.camel@price> <1155666178.2434.51.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <20060815184829.GA2909@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> David Zeuthen (david at fubar.dk) said: > http://people.freedesktop.org/~david/gdu-2.png > > It uses HAL and PolicyKit so we'll also get out of that "run X11 apps as > root" trap plus once we teach HAL about RAID / LVM we can add options to > g-v-m such as > > [ ] Assemble RAID arrays when hotplugged > [ ] Set up Logical Volumes when hotplugged How are you handling partial volumes? Bill From david at fubar.dk Tue Aug 15 18:57:18 2006 From: david at fubar.dk (David Zeuthen) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 14:57:18 -0400 Subject: usability: unplugged ethernet cable on an office desktop In-Reply-To: <20060815184829.GA2909@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <20060815002331.GB28686@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1155618247.15197.7.camel@price> <20060815052236.GA3424@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1155621005.15197.9.camel@price> <1155659583.2434.20.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> <44E1F917.6090004@redhat.com> <1155660995.2434.30.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> <44E1FF84.5010408@redhat.com> <1155663794.2677.13.camel@price> <1155666178.2434.51.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> <20060815184829.GA2909@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1155668238.2434.54.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> On Tue, 2006-08-15 at 14:48 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > David Zeuthen (david at fubar.dk) said: > > http://people.freedesktop.org/~david/gdu-2.png > > > > It uses HAL and PolicyKit so we'll also get out of that "run X11 apps as > > root" trap plus once we teach HAL about RAID / LVM we can add options to > > g-v-m such as > > > > [ ] Assemble RAID arrays when hotplugged > > [ ] Set up Logical Volumes when hotplugged > > How are you handling partial volumes? This code is not written yet (patches welcome!) but I suspect you will be able to start partly-assembled stuff from g-d-u after clicking a warning dialog or two. David From notting at redhat.com Tue Aug 15 19:21:07 2006 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 15:21:07 -0400 Subject: usability: unplugged ethernet cable on an office desktop In-Reply-To: <1155668238.2434.54.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> References: <20060815052236.GA3424@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1155621005.15197.9.camel@price> <1155659583.2434.20.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> <44E1F917.6090004@redhat.com> <1155660995.2434.30.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> <44E1FF84.5010408@redhat.com> <1155663794.2677.13.camel@price> <1155666178.2434.51.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> <20060815184829.GA2909@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1155668238.2434.54.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <20060815192107.GC2909@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> David Zeuthen (david at fubar.dk) said: > > > It uses HAL and PolicyKit so we'll also get out of that "run X11 apps as > > > root" trap plus once we teach HAL about RAID / LVM we can add options to > > > g-v-m such as > > > > > > [ ] Assemble RAID arrays when hotplugged > > > [ ] Set up Logical Volumes when hotplugged > > > > How are you handling partial volumes? > > This code is not written yet (patches welcome!) but I suspect you will > be able to start partly-assembled stuff from g-d-u after clicking a > warning dialog or two. No, I mean you'll get disparate events: - hey, I added hda1! - Looks like it might be part of VG ... - hey, I added hdb1! - Looks like it might be part of VG ... - hey, I added hdc1! - Looks like it might be part of VG ... When do you decide to assemble? Bill From david at fubar.dk Tue Aug 15 19:38:59 2006 From: david at fubar.dk (David Zeuthen) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 15:38:59 -0400 Subject: usability: unplugged ethernet cable on an office desktop In-Reply-To: <20060815192107.GC2909@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <20060815052236.GA3424@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1155621005.15197.9.camel@price> <1155659583.2434.20.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> <44E1F917.6090004@redhat.com> <1155660995.2434.30.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> <44E1FF84.5010408@redhat.com> <1155663794.2677.13.camel@price> <1155666178.2434.51.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> <20060815184829.GA2909@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1155668238.2434.54.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> <20060815192107.GC2909@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1155670739.2434.63.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> On Tue, 2006-08-15 at 15:21 -0400, Bill Nottingham wrote: > No, I mean you'll get disparate events: > > - hey, I added hda1! > - Looks like it might be part of VG ... > - hey, I added hdb1! > - Looks like it might be part of VG ... > > - hey, I added hdc1! > - Looks like it might be part of VG ... > > When do you decide to assemble? Each PV got enough metadata to tell what the entire LV looks like - e.g. actually each PV has metadata saying 1) I'm part of LV "foo"; and 2) LV foo consists of PV's "bar", "baz" and "bat". So we just teach HAL to pick up this metadata (like we already do for 20 + file systems) and then export it as volume.linux.lvm.* properties and then g-v-m can do the right thing when it sees all the PV's. It's actually pretty simple. Same thing for is true for RAID. However, for RAID, we might allow the user to start a RAID mirror set (probably from g-d-u) even if some backing volumes are missing but we probably shouldn't do this automatically. Except for maybe on boot but that's initramfs / initscripts business. That's what I thought you were asking :-) David From andrewz at springsrescuemission.org Tue Aug 15 21:32:17 2006 From: andrewz at springsrescuemission.org (Andrew Ziem) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 15:32:17 -0600 Subject: usability: adding a PPD from the new printer wizard Message-ID: <44E23D61.9090206@springsrescuemission.org> (Sorry, I don't have FC6, so I can't check the new system-config-printer.) Say you are adding a new printer using the wizard. You get to the screen "Printer model" when you realize you forgot to add the PPD. The wizard doesn't let you add a PPD at this point, and since the wizard is modal, you can't add a PPD from the main window. So, you have to abort the wizard to add a PPD. It would be easier and intuitive to have an "Add a PPD" button on the Wizard's "Printer model" page. Andrew From stb52988 at gmail.com Tue Aug 15 22:06:17 2006 From: stb52988 at gmail.com (Steve Barnhart) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 18:06:17 -0400 Subject: Fedora Artwork In-Reply-To: <44E2151C.3070709@heartseed.org> References: <15ce3ec0608110908u48e35dd4w143c7549d39a2067@mail.gmail.com> <44DCFB40.1010109@optonline.net> <44E2151C.3070709@heartseed.org> Message-ID: <15ce3ec0608151506x68aab88am8cc5d304b3855954@mail.gmail.com> haha fedora 'cares' lol that's funny :). On a slight other note, if they care they should not be so closed-minded when it comes to free and proprietary software and/or codecs and formats such as mp3 and the ntfs module. They could _atleast_ link to clearer documentation on how to do such things. Yes I know about the Fedora FAQ but I don't think its linked anywhere on the wiki where they discuss restricted formats. I remember reading a rant about it, wish I could remember it. Sorry to change the topic. Back on, ya I prefer a more professional theme, something that the red hat folks would still do :). I also like parts of the DNA theme, its heading in the right direction. Maybe a couple choices would be nice instead of 1 theme/wallpaper per release On 8/15/06, forms wrote: > Jeffrey D. Yuille wrote: > > Steve Barnhart wrote: > >> I personally do not prefer the "bubbly" theme introduced in recent > >> versions of Fedora and am not immediately fond of the artwork path the > >> Fedora team seems to be taking. > while I might understand the issue some may have of bubbly, I personally > LOVE it and find it soothing and basically overall showing that fedora > 'cares' maybe :)...ok that could be a stretch but I think it fits well ;) > > cheers > g.leej(nl) > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > -- Steve From sundaram at redhat.com Tue Aug 15 22:50:46 2006 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 04:20:46 +0530 Subject: Fedora Artwork In-Reply-To: <15ce3ec0608151506x68aab88am8cc5d304b3855954@mail.gmail.com> References: <15ce3ec0608110908u48e35dd4w143c7549d39a2067@mail.gmail.com> <44DCFB40.1010109@optonline.net> <44E2151C.3070709@heartseed.org> <15ce3ec0608151506x68aab88am8cc5d304b3855954@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <44E24FC6.5060803@redhat.com> Steve Barnhart wrote: > haha fedora 'cares' lol that's funny :). On a slight other note, if > they care they should not be so closed-minded when it comes to free > and proprietary software and/or codecs and formats such as mp3 and the > ntfs module. They could _atleast_ link to clearer documentation on how > to do such things. Yes I know about the Fedora FAQ but I don't think > its linked anywhere on the wiki where they discuss restricted formats. > I remember reading a rant about it, wish I could remember it. > Its a matter of policy in only including and supporting Free software. Holding such ideologies is similar to being a vegetarian for example, which has nothing to do with being close minded. In many cases writing down the steps to get codecs might very well amount to contributory infringement and we cant do that. So lets not have that discusssion yet again in a art list. Rahul From hackmiester at gmail.com Tue Aug 15 23:01:22 2006 From: hackmiester at gmail.com (hackmiester (Hunter Fuller)) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 18:01:22 -0500 Subject: usability: unplugged ethernet cable on an office desktop In-Reply-To: <1155659583.2434.20.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> References: <44E10EE4.9010200@springsrescuemission.org> <20060815002331.GB28686@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1155618247.15197.7.camel@price> <20060815052236.GA3424@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1155621005.15197.9.camel@price> <1155659583.2434.20.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> Message-ID: On 15 August 2006, at 11:33, David Zeuthen wrote: > On Tue, 2006-08-15 at 07:50 +0200, David Nielsen wrote: >> My point was that we don't yet do this by default which means the >> concerns still apply to any default case for Fedora. > > Perhaps what the world needs is a derived Fedora Core distribution > tailored for the desktop. Same packages [1], few patches [2], just > different behaviour out of the box more suited for the desktop. We already have a "Desktop" option in the installer. I propose that that option configure things differently, instead of just juggling packages differently. > > Certainly a lot easier trying to explain the powers that be ... things > like it's easier for servers admins to > > chkconfig --level 345 network on > chckonfig --level 345 NetworkManager off > > instead of asking people installing a desktop to do > > chkconfig --level 345 network off > chckonfig --level 345 NetworkManager on > > as the latter category of people is not really UNIX savy. > > Doing a derived distro for the desktop would allow us to care more > about > the desktop without wasting time educating other stake holders in > Fedora > that we need this or that change for the desktop to work well. > > Maybe the desktop needs a break from the rest of the distro. Just a > thought. > > David > > [1] : well, all the daily crob jobs like updatedb etc. plus much more > would have to go :-) > > [2] : maybe that glibc patch to reread /etc/resolv.conf so we don't > have > to run bind for NetworkManager in the default install :-) > > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list From sundaram at redhat.com Tue Aug 15 23:08:46 2006 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 04:38:46 +0530 Subject: usability: unplugged ethernet cable on an office desktop In-Reply-To: References: <44E10EE4.9010200@springsrescuemission.org> <20060815002331.GB28686@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1155618247.15197.7.camel@price> <20060815052236.GA3424@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1155621005.15197.9.camel@price> <1155659583.2434.20.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> Message-ID: <44E253FE.80808@redhat.com> hackmiester (Hunter Fuller) wrote: > > On 15 August 2006, at 11:33, David Zeuthen wrote: > >> On Tue, 2006-08-15 at 07:50 +0200, David Nielsen wrote: >>> My point was that we don't yet do this by default which means the >>> concerns still apply to any default case for Fedora. >> >> Perhaps what the world needs is a derived Fedora Core distribution >> tailored for the desktop. Same packages [1], few patches [2], just >> different behaviour out of the box more suited for the desktop. > > We already have a "Desktop" option in the installer. I propose that that > option configure things differently, instead of just juggling packages > differently. No. We dont from FC5 onwards. Rahul From hackmiester at gmail.com Tue Aug 15 23:09:50 2006 From: hackmiester at gmail.com (hackmiester (Hunter Fuller)) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 18:09:50 -0500 Subject: usability: unplugged ethernet cable on an office desktop In-Reply-To: <20060815171546.GA8663@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <44E10EE4.9010200@springsrescuemission.org> <20060815002331.GB28686@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1155618247.15197.7.camel@price> <20060815052236.GA3424@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1155621005.15197.9.camel@price> <1155659583.2434.20.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> <44E1F917.6090004@redhat.com> <1155660995.2434.30.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> <1155661216.2434.33.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> <20060815171546.GA8663@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: On 15 August 2006, at 12:15, Bill Nottingham wrote: > > No, you make sure the OS has the applications for your needs before > installing it. It obviously should work on all your hardware as a > matter of course. :) All hardware is impossible to provide drivers for, as it evolves constantly. For example, it doesn't work on my MacBook stock. It doesn't like the video card. Or my ThinkPad R51's wireless. > > Bill > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list From sundaram at redhat.com Tue Aug 15 23:14:47 2006 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 04:44:47 +0530 Subject: usability: unplugged ethernet cable on an office desktop In-Reply-To: References: <44E10EE4.9010200@springsrescuemission.org> <20060815002331.GB28686@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1155618247.15197.7.camel@price> <20060815052236.GA3424@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1155621005.15197.9.camel@price> <1155659583.2434.20.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> <44E1F917.6090004@redhat.com> <1155660995.2434.30.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> <1155661216.2434.33.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> <20060815171546.GA8663@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <44E25567.4050803@redhat.com> hackmiester (Hunter Fuller) wrote: > > On 15 August 2006, at 12:15, Bill Nottingham wrote: > >> >> No, you make sure the OS has the applications for your needs before >> installing it. It obviously should work on all your hardware as a >> matter of course. :) > > All hardware is impossible to provide drivers for, as it evolves > constantly. For example, it doesn't work on my MacBook stock. It doesn't > like the video card. Or my ThinkPad R51's wireless. > I think that is well understood. The smiley indicated a tongue in cheek comment. Rahul From b2.mdr.magarzo at gmail.com Tue Aug 15 23:57:11 2006 From: b2.mdr.magarzo at gmail.com (M Daniel R Magarzo) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 01:57:11 +0200 Subject: Fedora Artwork In-Reply-To: <44DCFB40.1010109@optonline.net> References: <15ce3ec0608110908u48e35dd4w143c7549d39a2067@mail.gmail.com> <44DCFB40.1010109@optonline.net> Message-ID: <1155686231.19137.42.camel@ulises> El vie, 11-08-2006 a las 17:48 -0400, Jeffrey D. Yuille escribi?: > Steve Barnhart wrote: > > I personally do not prefer the "bubbly" theme introduced in recent > > versions of Fedora and am not immediately fond of the artwork path the > > Fedora team seems to be taking. To me it seems to be departing away > > from the regular/old redhat-artwork team which imo is a bad thing. I > > liked bluecurve when it first came out and many people did, but in any > > way it did create A LOT of attention onto Redhat. It was a nice and > > professional theme and still looks pretty good today except for the > > use of grey and "blah" buttons. > > > > The icon theme though is still nice and the artwork (GDm theme, splash > > screen etc.) shown in RHEL4 is more of the kind of stuff I would like > > to see instead of the "kiddish" kind of look Fedora seems to be taking > > on. I believe many want a professional looking distro and > > Redhat/Fedora was/is that and I would like if perhaps we could take > > some different directions in the artwork again, perhaps more in tune > > to what RHEL team does. I have looked at the new icon theme (Echo) and > > I think I like it and I even like the Bluecurve GDM theme shipped > > w/FC5 as well as the splash screen for GNOME. Its the bubbily/light > > blue theme and such that is in the new release that I do not like. > > Hopefully we can discuss this more. > > > Amen to that, I like the old themes in FC4, FC3, etc. Why the > maintainers decided to depart from that, I have no idea. > > Jeff > Amen too. At home those fc5 themes & splashes are known as fedora "champagne" :-p I also agree with that idea about its new look, it is a lot childish in my opinion, for sure proper to animate the decoration's sky in a music "festival", the walls of a kindergarten, etc... Sorry, but I've upgraded to fc5 (from fc4) recently, so maybe I am still under "shock". I wouldn't like to be disrespectful with the team in charge at all but one of the first things I did when customizing the new install was to take away the /boot/grub/splash.xpm.gz file replacing it for a previous one, install gnome-themes-extra pack, change to a bluecurve theme, choose a more serious background, gnome-themes, etc... But mine it's just an single opinion -there are millions of colours, so there are millions of tastes. Regards From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Wed Aug 16 01:17:43 2006 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 20:17:43 -0500 Subject: usability: adding a PPD from the new printer wizard In-Reply-To: <44E23D61.9090206@springsrescuemission.org> References: <44E23D61.9090206@springsrescuemission.org> Message-ID: <44E27237.2040105@prodigy.net.mx> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Andrew Ziem escribi?: > (Sorry, I don't have FC6, so I can't check the new > system-config-printer.) > > Say you are adding a new printer using the wizard. You get to the > screen "Printer model" when you realize you forgot to add the PPD. > The wizard doesn't let you add a PPD at this point, and since the > wizard is modal, you can't add a PPD from the main window. So, you > have to abort the wizard to add a PPD. > > It would be easier and intuitive to have an "Add a PPD" button on > the Wizard's "Printer model" page. > > > Andrew > I agree with you in this regard... Other printer usability "issues". I'm not so sure if anyone else has noticed this, but for home users it is a pain to not be able to adjust printer quality settings as a normal user and from the standard print dialogs (yes, much to my dislike, like it is in Windows?), or at least have access to a central printer "properties" window from where they could set their preferences for printing quality (dpi, quality settings, paper size, etc), say, be able to set all quality and other parameters to the printer, as a normal user, from Programs -> System Tools (Aplicaciones - -> Herramientas del Sistema in my Spanish localized desktop). I'm sure this imposes a lot of potential "issues" from security to management, but maybe by having all users be part of the "print" group by default and only allow those users to have access to the printer's properties, and when an admin would like to tighten the degree to which the users can waste the printer's tonner/ink cartridges fixing the printer's quality setting to, for instance, "normal" and only the users part of the "print" group can modify this setting *only during their session*, and for that particular user *only* (should more than one user may have an open session in the system, like say, a remote login from ssh or remote desktop) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFE4nI3XM+XOp70dwoRAnwxAJ9thX/6Whe+OYZeEMZOtiixVS+7eACeP0So XWc0t/Bkw6Nv/qK45r3F0X8= =rSSe -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From notting at redhat.com Wed Aug 16 02:13:52 2006 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 22:13:52 -0400 Subject: usability: adding a PPD from the new printer wizard In-Reply-To: <44E27237.2040105@prodigy.net.mx> References: <44E23D61.9090206@springsrescuemission.org> <44E27237.2040105@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: <20060816021352.GA7394@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Gian Paolo Mureddu (gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx) said: > Other printer usability "issues". > > I'm not so sure if anyone else has noticed this, but for home users it > is a pain to not be able to adjust printer quality settings as a > normal user and from the standard print dialogs (yes, much to my > dislike, like it is in Windows?) This is fixed in FC6, at least for apps ported to the new GTK+ printing code. Bill From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Wed Aug 16 03:53:47 2006 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 22:53:47 -0500 Subject: usability: adding a PPD from the new printer wizard In-Reply-To: <20060816021352.GA7394@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <44E23D61.9090206@springsrescuemission.org> <"20060816021352.GA739 4"@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <44E296CB.9010904@prodigy.net.mx> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Bill Nottingham escribi?: > Gian Paolo Mureddu (gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx) said: >> Other printer usability "issues". >> >> I'm not so sure if anyone else has noticed this, but for home >> users it is a pain to not be able to adjust printer quality >> settings as a normal user and from the standard print dialogs >> (yes, much to my dislike, like it is in Windows?) > > This is fixed in FC6, at least for apps ported to the new GTK+ > printing code. > > Bill > That is good to know, and as a good news it is, it also came awfully late. However it is excellent news for those of us who serve as the home "sysadmins". Thanks for the heads up. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFE4pbLXM+XOp70dwoRAuEwAJ4oXNFKaAALyFVnO8ZuvBg/wi2rugCdF/DX daiQxRb0oo4NHcdUEcnitAM= =eODA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From roguexz at gmail.com Wed Aug 16 06:15:09 2006 From: roguexz at gmail.com (Rogue) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 23:15:09 -0700 Subject: Regarding shortcut keys In-Reply-To: <1155649181.14705.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <44E17DF2.9020908@gmail.com> <1155649181.14705.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <44E2B7ED.3020208@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bloch at verdurin.com Wed Aug 16 08:38:20 2006 From: bloch at verdurin.com (bloch at verdurin.com) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 09:38:20 +0100 Subject: Regarding shortcut keys In-Reply-To: <44E2B7ED.3020208@gmail.com> References: <44E17DF2.9020908@gmail.com> <1155649181.14705.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> <44E2B7ED.3020208@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060816083820.GE23901@bloch> On Tue, 15 Aug 2006, Rogue wrote: > Hi Paul, > > Thanks a tonne for that information.. I am just blind to have not noticed it > :") > > The combination keys work with alt, shift and control, it would be great if it > could work with the windows key too :-) > You probably need to use the Keyboard preferences application. In my case, I've set the Alt/Win key behaviour option to "Hyper is mapped to the Win-keys" and I can use the Win key in combination with a number to go to different virtual desktops. From andrewz at springsrescuemission.org Wed Aug 16 17:57:48 2006 From: andrewz at springsrescuemission.org (Andrew Ziem) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 11:57:48 -0600 Subject: usability: setting system-wide network proxies for all applications Message-ID: <44E35C9C.7070605@springsrescuemission.org> Here's something I filed in Bugzilla back in June. Fixing this issue would make life easier for enterprise users, but it's not clear what exactly the solution would be. Should the proxy control be integrated into system-config-network, Sabayon, or somewhere else? ---https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=197371---------------------------------------- Description of problem: Imagine the scenario of a multi-computer office network, and each computer has multiple users. The office firewall does not allow direct port 80 access, so all web traffic must go through the web proxy. Setting the proxy for each application for each user on each computer can be tiring. Competition: In SUSE 10.1, Yast can configure a system wide proxy which affects (at least) Firefox, Gnome, KDE, and environment variables. Programs such as wget, links, and yum (on Fedora) obey the environment variables. In SUSE 10.1, OpenOffice.org's proxy setting is not affected (but it would be nice if it were). In Microsoft Windows, most applications obey the system proxy settings (Control Panel->Internet Options->Connections). ---https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=197371---------------------------------------- Recently, I thought about two other nuances. First, when yum runs as a service, (by default) it doesn't load environment variables from /etc/profile.d/*sh, which is a convenient place to setup proxy environment variables. Second, non-GUI Linux programs (unlike GUI web browsers, for example) support neither proxy auto-detection nor automatic configuration URLs. Andrew From roguexz at gmail.com Thu Aug 17 03:28:53 2006 From: roguexz at gmail.com (Rogue) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 20:28:53 -0700 Subject: Regarding shortcut keys In-Reply-To: <20060816083820.GE23901@bloch> References: <44E17DF2.9020908@gmail.com> <1155649181.14705.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> <44E2B7ED.3020208@gmail.com> <20060816083820.GE23901@bloch> Message-ID: <44E3E275.2070802@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From splinux at fedoraproject.org Thu Aug 17 21:19:41 2006 From: splinux at fedoraproject.org (Damien Durand) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 23:19:41 +0200 Subject: A sound or music when your desktop is starting? Message-ID: Hi all, What do you think about a sound or music when your gnome ok kde desktop is starting? It's just an idea :-) Regards, Damien Durand -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david at lovesunix.net Thu Aug 17 21:38:19 2006 From: david at lovesunix.net (David Nielsen) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 23:38:19 +0200 Subject: A sound or music when your desktop is starting? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1155850699.2708.145.camel@price> tor, 17 08 2006 kl. 23:19 +0200, skrev Damien Durand: > Hi all, > > What do you think about a sound or music when your gnome ok kde > desktop is starting? It's just an idea :-) Not by default at least, it would add to startup time and general annoyance - it's hard to find sounds that please everyone if not impossible. Now I'm all for say collecting a package of nice sutle sounds that the user can install for some audio feedback but I don't see the case for enabling it by default. In my experience most users who want this will add soundclips from the internet of say their favorite cartoon or something like that. I doubt we'll gain much by forcing a default "bling sound" on everyone. - David From sundaram at redhat.com Thu Aug 17 21:46:20 2006 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 03:16:20 +0530 Subject: A sound or music when your desktop is starting? In-Reply-To: <1155850699.2708.145.camel@price> References: <1155850699.2708.145.camel@price> Message-ID: <44E4E3AC.8040001@redhat.com> David Nielsen wrote: > tor, 17 08 2006 kl. 23:19 +0200, skrev Damien Durand: >> Hi all, >> >> What do you think about a sound or music when your gnome ok kde >> desktop is starting? It's just an idea :-) > > Not by default at least, it would add to startup time and general > annoyance - it's hard to find sounds that please everyone if not > impossible. The same can be said about artwork for example. That by itself isnt a good argument. Now I'm all for say collecting a package of nice sutle > sounds that the user can install for some audio feedback but I don't see > the case for enabling it by default. > > In my experience most users who want this will add soundclips from the > internet of say their favorite cartoon or something like that. I doubt > we'll gain much by forcing a default "bling sound" on everyone. > We would only "force" sounds as much as we force a wallpaper or a window manager theme on everyone. Without good (defined as not being too long, jazzy etc) default sounds this particular functionality wouldnt even be realized by the user. I for one wouldnt mind seeing a few different sound themes available in Fedora Core with one of them enabled by default. Rahul From david at lovesunix.net Thu Aug 17 21:54:30 2006 From: david at lovesunix.net (David Nielsen) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 23:54:30 +0200 Subject: A sound or music when your desktop is starting? In-Reply-To: <44E4E3AC.8040001@redhat.com> References: <1155850699.2708.145.camel@price> <44E4E3AC.8040001@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1155851670.2708.154.camel@price> fre, 18 08 2006 kl. 03:16 +0530, skrev Rahul: > David Nielsen wrote: > > tor, 17 08 2006 kl. 23:19 +0200, skrev Damien Durand: > >> Hi all, > >> > >> What do you think about a sound or music when your gnome ok kde > >> desktop is starting? It's just an idea :-) > > > > Not by default at least, it would add to startup time and general > > annoyance - it's hard to find sounds that please everyone if not > > impossible. > > The same can be said about artwork for example. That by itself isnt a > good argument. > > Now I'm all for say collecting a package of nice sutle > > sounds that the user can install for some audio feedback but I don't see > > the case for enabling it by default. > > > > In my experience most users who want this will add soundclips from the > > internet of say their favorite cartoon or something like that. I doubt > > we'll gain much by forcing a default "bling sound" on everyone. > > > > We would only "force" sounds as much as we force a wallpaper or a window > manager theme on everyone. Without good (defined as not being too long, > jazzy etc) default sounds this particular functionality wouldnt even be > realized by the user. > > I for one wouldnt mind seeing a few different sound themes available in > Fedora Core with one of them enabled by default. I take it you haven't been in cubical hell when someone hasn't turned his builtin speakers off and the Windows startup sound goes off - or in class when the same thing happens. Artwork doesn't generally annoy passersby, collegues or classmates, sound can very easily. Now I'm in no way against showing off by assembling some cool packages of sounds that we can do it, but by default I'd prefer silence. - David From marco.bertaglia at googlemail.com Thu Aug 17 22:02:42 2006 From: marco.bertaglia at googlemail.com (Marco Bertaglia) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 23:02:42 +0100 Subject: A sound or music when your desktop is starting? In-Reply-To: <1155851670.2708.154.camel@price> References: <1155850699.2708.145.camel@price> <44E4E3AC.8040001@redhat.com> <1155851670.2708.154.camel@price> Message-ID: No, definitely, no sound by default, after all Open Soft is all about Free Choice I don't want any reminescence of the "blue screen of Death" ;-)) Cheers Marco On 17/08/06, David Nielsen wrote: > fre, 18 08 2006 kl. 03:16 +0530, skrev Rahul: > > David Nielsen wrote: > > > tor, 17 08 2006 kl. 23:19 +0200, skrev Damien Durand: > > >> Hi all, > > >> > > >> What do you think about a sound or music when your gnome ok kde > > >> desktop is starting? It's just an idea :-) > > > > > > Not by default at least, it would add to startup time and general > > > annoyance - it's hard to find sounds that please everyone if not > > > impossible. > > > > The same can be said about artwork for example. That by itself isnt a > > good argument. > > > > Now I'm all for say collecting a package of nice sutle > > > sounds that the user can install for some audio feedback but I don't see > > > the case for enabling it by default. > > > > > > In my experience most users who want this will add soundclips from the > > > internet of say their favorite cartoon or something like that. I doubt > > > we'll gain much by forcing a default "bling sound" on everyone. > > > > > > > We would only "force" sounds as much as we force a wallpaper or a window > > manager theme on everyone. Without good (defined as not being too long, > > jazzy etc) default sounds this particular functionality wouldnt even be > > realized by the user. > > > > I for one wouldnt mind seeing a few different sound themes available in > > Fedora Core with one of them enabled by default. > > I take it you haven't been in cubical hell when someone hasn't turned > his builtin speakers off and the Windows startup sound goes off - or in > class when the same thing happens. > > Artwork doesn't generally annoy passersby, collegues or classmates, > sound can very easily. > > Now I'm in no way against showing off by assembling some cool packages > of sounds that we can do it, but by default I'd prefer silence. > > - David > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > -- Marco Bertaglia 5 Withersdane Hall Cottages Coldharbour Lane Wye Kent TN25 5DA tel. +44 (0)1233 811910 work +44 (0)2075 942602 From sundaram at redhat.com Thu Aug 17 22:10:37 2006 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 03:40:37 +0530 Subject: A sound or music when your desktop is starting? In-Reply-To: <1155851670.2708.154.camel@price> References: <1155850699.2708.145.camel@price> <44E4E3AC.8040001@redhat.com> <1155851670.2708.154.camel@price> Message-ID: <44E4E95D.4060306@redhat.com> David Nielsen wrote: > > I take it you haven't been in cubical hell when someone hasn't turned > his builtin speakers off and the Windows startup sound goes off - or in > class when the same thing happens. Working on odd timings like 4 AM in the morning has the advantage that there is noone around to complain about sounds ;-) > > Artwork doesn't generally annoy passersby, collegues or classmates, > sound can very easily. Right, which is why I noted that the default sound set shouldnt be jazzy. > > Now I'm in no way against showing off by assembling some cool packages > of sounds that we can do it, but by default I'd prefer silence. > The problem with just shipping sounds but not enabling them is that end users wouldnt stumble upon this feature easily. From david at wwns.com Fri Aug 18 01:37:39 2006 From: david at wwns.com (David R. Wilson) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 20:37:39 -0500 Subject: A sound or music when your desktop is starting? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1155865059.23478.73.camel@radio.wwns.com> I would highly suggest a 12 gauge. If it doesn't take care of the noise the second shot will. Dave On Thu, 2006-08-17 at 23:19 +0200, Damien Durand wrote: > Hi all, > > What do you think about a sound or music when your gnome ok kde > desktop is starting? It's just an idea :-) > > Regards, > > Damien Durand > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Aug 18 04:54:52 2006 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 20:54:52 -0800 Subject: A sound or music when your desktop is starting? In-Reply-To: <44E4E95D.4060306@redhat.com> References: <1155850699.2708.145.camel@price> <44E4E3AC.8040001@redhat.com> <1155851670.2708.154.camel@price> <44E4E95D.4060306@redhat.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910608172154p55674d89sf2b2df824114f83c@mail.gmail.com> On 8/17/06, Rahul wrote: > Right, which is why I noted that the default sound set shouldnt be jazzy. -1 There is no definition of 'subtle' or 'tasteful' for automated default sounds which is appropriate in any public setting. An ugly wallpaper by default is not a distraction to someone in a study area or in a meeting. Any default startup or desktop action sounds are an airborne disease whose infection rate can be substantially amplified by external, amplified speakers. While I personally yearn for the day where eye-candy fanatics can violate the visual senses of everyone in a 500 foot radius as easily as someone with their wall AC powered 5.1 speaker upgrade from Dell with a volume knob that goes to 11 can shatter my eardrums with the ever-so-soft tinkle of a desktop startup melody... that day isn't here just yet so everyone's retinas are safe. Our eardrums are not... subtle tones of a not-to-jazzy nature are still a public nuisance. Support my ballot measure to end unnecessary desktop noise pollution, vote yes on measure 123! -jef"make the default desktop have a vibrate mode instead, that way when laptops are used in the manner assumed in their naming...everyone would prefer vibrate"spaleta From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Fri Aug 18 05:00:23 2006 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 00:00:23 -0500 Subject: A sound or music when your desktop is starting? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44E54967.8050102@prodigy.net.mx> Damien Durand escribi?: > Hi all, > > What do you think about a sound or music when your gnome ok kde > desktop is starting? It's just an idea :-) > > Regards, > > Damien Durand I prefer what I currently do, add to the session startup a sound I made with aplay, works wonderfully :D From forms at heartseed.org Fri Aug 18 20:40:40 2006 From: forms at heartseed.org (forms) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 13:40:40 -0700 Subject: A sound or music when your desktop is starting? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44E625C8.8020608@heartseed.org> Damien Durand wrote: > Hi all, > > What do you think about a sound or music when your gnome ok kde > desktop is starting? It's just an idea :-) > > Regards, > > Damien Durand > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.3/423 - Release Date: 8/18/2006 > It does in ubuntu and I like it very much. It also does it in Windows XP and its never been changed, so I preclude that M$ finds the decision appropriate. It's not fatal if someone doesn't like it right ? ( we should learn to relax more ) From hackmiester at gmail.com Fri Aug 18 22:03:38 2006 From: hackmiester at gmail.com (hackmiester (Hunter Fuller)) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 17:03:38 -0500 Subject: usability: unplugged ethernet cable on an office desktop In-Reply-To: <44E253FE.80808@redhat.com> References: <44E10EE4.9010200@springsrescuemission.org> <20060815002331.GB28686@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1155618247.15197.7.camel@price> <20060815052236.GA3424@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1155621005.15197.9.camel@price> <1155659583.2434.20.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> <44E253FE.80808@redhat.com> Message-ID: <582451B3-D575-42FD-B767-0B99C49E2B77@gmail.com> On 15 August 2006, at 18:08, Rahul wrote: > hackmiester (Hunter Fuller) wrote: >> We already have a "Desktop" option in the installer. I propose >> that that option configure things differently, instead of just >> juggling packages differently. > > No. We dont from FC5 onwards. ergh... sorry... but why not? It'd be perfect for this!... > > Rahul > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list From hackmiester at gmail.com Fri Aug 18 22:04:36 2006 From: hackmiester at gmail.com (hackmiester (Hunter Fuller)) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 17:04:36 -0500 Subject: usability: unplugged ethernet cable on an office desktop In-Reply-To: <44E25567.4050803@redhat.com> References: <44E10EE4.9010200@springsrescuemission.org> <20060815002331.GB28686@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1155618247.15197.7.camel@price> <20060815052236.GA3424@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1155621005.15197.9.camel@price> <1155659583.2434.20.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> <44E1F917.6090004@redhat.com> <1155660995.2434.30.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> <1155661216.2434.33.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> <20060815171546.GA8663@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <44E25567.4050803@redhat.com> Message-ID: <7AA62B5D-8404-4CC3-AB20-23DE6C91B557@gmail.com> On 15 August 2006, at 18:14, Rahul wrote: > hackmiester (Hunter Fuller) wrote: >> All hardware is impossible to provide drivers for, as it evolves >> constantly. For example, it doesn't work on my MacBook stock. It >> doesn't like the video card. Or my ThinkPad R51's wireless. > > I think that is well understood. The smiley indicated a tongue in > cheek comment. Aah, thanks for clarifying :) > > Rahul > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list From sundaram at redhat.com Fri Aug 18 22:13:06 2006 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul) Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 03:43:06 +0530 Subject: usability: unplugged ethernet cable on an office desktop In-Reply-To: <582451B3-D575-42FD-B767-0B99C49E2B77@gmail.com> References: <44E10EE4.9010200@springsrescuemission.org> <20060815002331.GB28686@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1155618247.15197.7.camel@price> <20060815052236.GA3424@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1155621005.15197.9.camel@price> <1155659583.2434.20.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> <44E253FE.80808@redhat.com> <582451B3-D575-42FD-B767-0B99C49E2B77@gmail.com> Message-ID: <44E63B72.1000506@redhat.com> hackmiester (Hunter Fuller) wrote: > > On 15 August 2006, at 18:08, Rahul wrote: > >> hackmiester (Hunter Fuller) wrote: >>> We already have a "Desktop" option in the installer. I propose that >>> that option configure things differently, instead of just juggling >>> packages differently. >> >> No. We dont from FC5 onwards. > ergh... sorry... > but why not? It'd be perfect for this!... We are moving into supporting Fedora Extras and any custom repository during installation and "desktop" as defined by the installer isnt what everyone has in mind. Now it is designed to be more task based http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Anaconda/PackageSelection Rahul From hackmiester at gmail.com Sun Aug 20 15:16:26 2006 From: hackmiester at gmail.com (hackmiester (Hunter Fuller)) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 10:16:26 -0500 Subject: A sound or music when your desktop is starting? In-Reply-To: <44E4E3AC.8040001@redhat.com> References: <1155850699.2708.145.camel@price> <44E4E3AC.8040001@redhat.com> Message-ID: <9B2F0CC3-A145-4C10-83FC-A3C8B763009F@gmail.com> On 17 August 2006, at 16:46, Rahul wrote: > > The same can be said about artwork for example. That by itself isnt > a good argument. > > We would only "force" sounds as much as we force a wallpaper or a > window manager theme on everyone. Well, people will think something's missing if you have no wallpaper, and you certainly have to have a window manager theme!! > Without good (defined as not being too long, jazzy etc) default > sounds this particular functionality wouldnt even be realized by > the user. True. > I for one wouldnt mind seeing a few different sound themes > available in Fedora Core with one of them enabled by default. Yes. I like Mac OS X' occasional subtle sounds. They are quite quiet (say that 15 times fast!) and unobtrusive - a crumpling paper when you empty the trash, a whoosh when you send mail, etc... I think subtle would be the way to go, so people know that the functionality exists, but don't deafen/scare them. :) > > Rahul > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list From hackmiester at gmail.com Sun Aug 20 15:19:51 2006 From: hackmiester at gmail.com (hackmiester (Hunter Fuller)) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 10:19:51 -0500 Subject: usability: unplugged ethernet cable on an office desktop In-Reply-To: <44E63B72.1000506@redhat.com> References: <44E10EE4.9010200@springsrescuemission.org> <20060815002331.GB28686@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1155618247.15197.7.camel@price> <20060815052236.GA3424@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1155621005.15197.9.camel@price> <1155659583.2434.20.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> <44E253FE.80808@redhat.com> <582451B3-D575-42FD-B767-0B99C49E2B77@gmail.com> <44E63B72.1000506@redhat.com> Message-ID: <51249580-241B-4AC7-A77C-3F31776EC234@gmail.com> On 18 August 2006, at 17:13, Rahul wrote: > hackmiester (Hunter Fuller) wrote: >> On 15 August 2006, at 18:08, Rahul wrote: >>> hackmiester (Hunter Fuller) wrote: >>>> We already have a "Desktop" option in the installer. I propose >>>> that that option configure things differently, instead of just >>>> juggling packages differently. >>> >>> No. We dont from FC5 onwards. >> ergh... sorry... >> but why not? It'd be perfect for this!... > > We are moving into supporting Fedora Extras and any custom > repository during installation and "desktop" as defined by the > installer isnt what everyone has in mind. Now it is designed to be > more task based Well still, the installer should have some option for automatically setting things up a certain way. One page for package selection, another for configuration. > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Anaconda/PackageSelection > > Rahul > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list From sundaram at redhat.com Sun Aug 20 15:31:04 2006 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 21:01:04 +0530 Subject: usability: unplugged ethernet cable on an office desktop In-Reply-To: <51249580-241B-4AC7-A77C-3F31776EC234@gmail.com> References: <44E10EE4.9010200@springsrescuemission.org> <20060815002331.GB28686@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1155618247.15197.7.camel@price> <20060815052236.GA3424@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> <1155621005.15197.9.camel@price> <1155659583.2434.20.camel@zelda.fubar.dk> <44E253FE.80808@redhat.com> <582451B3-D575-42FD-B767-0B99C49E2B77@gmail.com> <44E63B72.1000506@redhat.com> <51249580-241B-4AC7-A77C-3F31776EC234@gmail.com> Message-ID: <44E88038.1000801@redhat.com> hackmiester (Hunter Fuller) wrote: > > Well still, the installer should have some option for automatically > setting things up a certain way. One page for package selection, another > for configuration. > Agreed. The installer already allows package selection. Configuration setup that depends on particular installation groups are a good thing but isnt necessary dependent on the user interface. Rahul From splinux at fedoraproject.org Sun Aug 27 13:40:25 2006 From: splinux at fedoraproject.org (Damien Durand) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 15:40:25 +0200 Subject: [Usability] : First report of the Fedora Usability Sig Message-ID: Welcome to the first report of the Fedora Usability Sig Objective: The Usability Sig has for goal to provide coherence, accessibility and intuivity for all people using Fedora Core and its associated ressources. Works provided by the Usability Sig: *- System-config-rootpassword has been redefined* Damien Durand, Haikel Guemar and Diana Fong have redefined the system-config-rootpassword tool for more intuitivy and security. You will find here a patch with the modifications : http://glive.tuxfamily.org/usability/new_system_config_root_password2.patch A RPM package is also available for test and provide some feedbacks: http://glive.tuxfamily.org/usability/system-config-rootpassword-usability-1.noarch.rpm /!\ This package is not official, the Fedora Project is not responsable of this modifications, don't repport bugs on bugzilla.redhat.com but use the fedora-desktop-list for this. - Introduction guide Damien Durand has started the usability introction guide : http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DamienDurand/Usability/IntroductionGuide You can and you are encouraged to modify it. /!\ This guide is not official and is not a part of the Fedora Documentation Project - Contributors There is a total of 9 members in the UsabilityGroup: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Usability/UsabilityGroup with 3 active contributors and 6 potential. If you would like help, please add your name on the page. To get support or to discuss about Usability in Fedora, join the Fedora-Desktop-List: http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list Or the * #fedora-usability* channel on *irc.freenode.org* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bpepple at fedoraproject.org Sun Aug 27 14:04:18 2006 From: bpepple at fedoraproject.org (Brian Pepple) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 10:04:18 -0400 Subject: [Usability] : First report of the Fedora Usability Sig In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1156687458.21805.1.camel@shuttle.piedmont.com> On Sun, 2006-08-27 at 15:40 +0200, Damien Durand wrote: > Welcome to the first report of the Fedora Usability Sig Is there a reason why the Usability SIG isn't located with the rest of the SIG's on the wiki? http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Usability http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Extras/SIGs /B -- Brian Pepple gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 810CC15E BD5E 6F9E 8688 E668 8F5B CBDE 326A E936 810C C15E -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From splinux at fedoraproject.org Sun Aug 27 15:05:51 2006 From: splinux at fedoraproject.org (Damien Durand) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 17:05:51 +0200 Subject: [Usability] : First report of the Fedora Usability Sig In-Reply-To: <1156687458.21805.1.camel@shuttle.piedmont.com> References: <1156687458.21805.1.camel@shuttle.piedmont.com> Message-ID: The Usability Sig is not a Fedora Extras sig. The location is correct. 2006/8/27, Brian Pepple : > > On Sun, 2006-08-27 at 15:40 +0200, Damien Durand wrote: > > Welcome to the first report of the Fedora Usability Sig > > Is there a reason why the Usability SIG isn't located with the rest of > the SIG's on the wiki? > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Usability > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Extras/SIGs > > /B > -- > Brian Pepple > > gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 810CC15E > BD5E 6F9E 8688 E668 8F5B CBDE 326A E936 810C C15E > > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bpepple at fedoraproject.org Sun Aug 27 15:34:14 2006 From: bpepple at fedoraproject.org (Brian Pepple) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 11:34:14 -0400 Subject: [Usability] : First report of the Fedora Usability Sig In-Reply-To: References: <1156687458.21805.1.camel@shuttle.piedmont.com> Message-ID: <1156692854.24845.3.camel@shuttle.piedmont.com> On Sun, 2006-08-27 at 17:05 +0200, Damien Durand wrote: > The Usability Sig is not a Fedora Extras sig. The location is correct. I disagree. It should be under http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Usability instead of under http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Usability, which gives the impression that it is an approved project, instead of a SIG. /B -- Brian Pepple gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 810CC15E BD5E 6F9E 8688 E668 8F5B CBDE 326A E936 810C C15E -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From splinux at fedoraproject.org Sun Aug 27 16:27:03 2006 From: splinux at fedoraproject.org (Damien Durand) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 18:27:03 +0200 Subject: [Usability] : First report of the Fedora Usability Sig In-Reply-To: <1156692854.24845.3.camel@shuttle.piedmont.com> References: <1156687458.21805.1.camel@shuttle.piedmont.com> <1156692854.24845.3.camel@shuttle.piedmont.com> Message-ID: Yeah, but if we make this, we should move all pages related to usability and by consequent, moved all pages of other sig I'm not agree with you, for me the actuel location is not a problem. Regars, Damien 2006/8/27, Brian Pepple : > > On Sun, 2006-08-27 at 17:05 +0200, Damien Durand wrote: > > The Usability Sig is not a Fedora Extras sig. The location is correct. > > I disagree. It should be under > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Usability instead of under > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Usability, which gives the impression that > it is an approved project, instead of a SIG. > > /B > -- > Brian Pepple > > gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 810CC15E > BD5E 6F9E 8688 E668 8F5B CBDE 326A E936 810C C15E > > > -- > Fedora-desktop-list mailing list > Fedora-desktop-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-desktop-list > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bpepple at fedoraproject.org Sun Aug 27 18:27:55 2006 From: bpepple at fedoraproject.org (Brian Pepple) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 14:27:55 -0400 Subject: [Usability] : First report of the Fedora Usability Sig In-Reply-To: References: <1156687458.21805.1.camel@shuttle.piedmont.com> <1156692854.24845.3.camel@shuttle.piedmont.com> Message-ID: <1156703275.2262.0.camel@shuttle.piedmont.com> On Sun, 2006-08-27 at 18:27 +0200, Damien Durand wrote: > Yeah, but if we make this, we should move all pages related to > usability and by consequent, moved all pages of other sig That is exactly what I'm suggesting. /B -- Brian Pepple gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 810CC15E BD5E 6F9E 8688 E668 8F5B CBDE 326A E936 810C C15E -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From splinux at fedoraproject.org Tue Aug 29 15:55:55 2006 From: splinux at fedoraproject.org (Damien Durand) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 17:55:55 +0200 Subject: Fwd: [fab] [Usability] : First report of the Fedora Usability Sig In-Reply-To: References: <1156865190.2548.26.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Damien Durand Date: 29 ao?t 2006 17:55 Subject: Re: [fab] [Usability] : First report of the Fedora Usability Sig To: Karsten Wade Cc: fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com Well, I can move the guide if you want, no problem for this. But let me know if the documentation team is agree with this. Damien Durand 2006/8/29, Karsten Wade < kwade at redhat.com>: > > On Sun, 2006-08-27 at 15:40 +0200, Damien Durand wrote: > - Introduction guide > > > Damien Durand has started the usability introction guide : > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DamienDurand/Usability/IntroductionGuide > You can and you are encouraged to modify it. > > > /!\ This guide is not official and is not a part of the Fedora > Documentation Project You can move this to the draft documents location, Docs/Drafts/. Functionally it is the same, except: i. It is more formal, not being tied to a specific user's NameSpace ii. Editors and writers watch Docs/Drafts.* and can help improve the document iteratively iii. Docs/Drafts is part of a process that I guess you would want the Usability Introduction Guide to be part of Just a suggestion. :) Other sub-projects use their own namespace, which makes sense, too. It depends on if you think of this guide as being "for all of Fedora" (Docs/Drafts) or project-specific ( e.g., SELinux/, Packaging/Guidelines, etc.). - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ _______________________________________________ fedora-advisory-board mailing list fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board _______________________________________________ fedora-advisory-board-readonly mailing list fedora-advisory-board-readonly at redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board-readonly -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mstuff at read.org.nz Thu Aug 31 11:56:46 2006 From: mstuff at read.org.nz (Morgan Read) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:56:46 +1200 Subject: usability: fedora's killer app? Clean-Install Assistant... Message-ID: <44F6CE7E.5020509@read.org.nz> What's the worst thing about operating systems and progress? Clean-install/Re-install/Upgrade And, fedora has both: allot of OS and allot of progress While reading over the usability discussion on the devel list, I noticed someone's comment on the frantic release cycle - which is great, I want the latest and greatest. But, the clean install every 6mths or less has got the be the biggest pita for fedora. This is of course true with all OSs, only fedora clicks over three times the speed of anything else. Three times the pita. And we all want a clean-install cf. upgrade because we all want to make use of the latest and greatest fedora has to offer (never mind the questions of whether an upgrade ever actually works - on any OS). Many years ago I installed all the interactions between MacOS 7.1 and 8.1, and then some. The greatest thing I ever found was this: http://www.marcmoini.com/C-IAssistant.html It's called Clean-Install Assistant. A wizard that steps you through the process of saving your custom config (by comparing the system against a database of non-custom system) installing a clean system and then re-installing the custom config. Of course fedora is somewhat more sophisticated than MacOS 8.1, but the principle's the same. Basically, what I have to do at least every 6mths is: - List my packages - List all changes to /home/me/ - List all changes to /etc/ - back up /home/me/ and /etc/ - Clean install - List my new packages and yum the diff - Go through my lists of /home/me/ and /etc/ and move-reconfig from the backups - Then muck around for the next month or so fine tuning all the stuff that I don't know about and never will that naturally gets customised through use - By which time it's time to go through the whole process again! (not quite:) So, what a blessing it would be to have a wizard that by a few clicks of a mouse stepped you effortlessly and comprehensively through that pita I've just listed above. I know, my Mac heritage is showing:) But, the principle is a valid one and what a relief it would be. M. -- Morgan Read NEW ZEALAND fedora: Freedom Forever! http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Overview "By choosing not to ship any proprietary or binary drivers, Fedora does differ from other distributions. ..." Quote: Max Spevik http://interviews.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/08/17/177220 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 251 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Aug 31 12:01:34 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 17:31:34 +0530 Subject: usability: fedora's killer app? Clean-Install Assistant... In-Reply-To: <44F6CE7E.5020509@read.org.nz> References: <44F6CE7E.5020509@read.org.nz> Message-ID: <44F6CF9E.1010507@fedoraproject.org> Morgan Read wrote: > What's the worst thing about operating systems and progress? > > Clean-install/Re-install/Upgrade > > And, fedora has both: allot of OS and allot of progress > > While reading over the usability discussion on the devel list, I noticed > someone's comment on the frantic release cycle - which is great, I want the > latest and greatest. But, the clean install every 6mths or less has got the be > the biggest pita for fedora. > > This is of course true with all OSs, only fedora clicks over three times the > speed of anything else. Three times the pita. And we all want a clean-install > cf. upgrade because we all want to make use of the latest and greatest fedora > has to offer (never mind the questions of whether an upgrade ever actually works > - on any OS). > > Many years ago I installed all the interactions between MacOS 7.1 and 8.1, and > then some. The greatest thing I ever found was this: > http://www.marcmoini.com/C-IAssistant.html > > It's called Clean-Install Assistant. A wizard that steps you through the > process of saving your custom config (by comparing the system against a database > of non-custom system) installing a clean system and then re-installing the > custom config. > > Of course fedora is somewhat more sophisticated than MacOS 8.1, but the > principle's the same. Basically, what I have to do at least every 6mths is: > - List my packages > - List all changes to /home/me/ > - List all changes to /etc/ > - back up /home/me/ and /etc/ > - Clean install > - List my new packages and yum the diff > - Go through my lists of /home/me/ and /etc/ and move-reconfig from the backups > - Then muck around for the next month or so fine tuning all the stuff that I > don't know about and never will that naturally gets customised through use > - By which time it's time to go through the whole process again! (not quite:) > > So, what a blessing it would be to have a wizard that by a few clicks of a mouse > stepped you effortlessly and comprehensively through that pita I've just listed > above. > > I know, my Mac heritage is showing:) But, the principle is a valid one and what > a relief it would be. > > M. > You might be interested in http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/AnacondaWorkItems#upgrade. I would love to have a upgrade assistant like what you suggest too. Rahul From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Aug 31 18:47:56 2006 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:47:56 -0800 Subject: usability: fedora's killer app? Clean-Install Assistant... In-Reply-To: <44F6CE7E.5020509@read.org.nz> References: <44F6CE7E.5020509@read.org.nz> Message-ID: <604aa7910608311147q10abe878i8d570a8c59f414a5@mail.gmail.com> On 8/31/06, Morgan Read wrote: > Of course fedora is somewhat more sophisticated than MacOS 8.1, but the > principle's the same. Basically, what I have to do at least every 6mths is: > - List my packages easily done.. and in fact a nightly list of packages is generated by a cronscript /var/log/rpmpkgs by the associated cronjob. > - List all changes to /home/me/ changes in /home/ could not be tracked since pretty much everything down in /home/ is non-default and its not even regarded as system information. You would need to backup all of /home/, no need to try to track changes inside /home when all of /home is considered a customization. > - List all changes to /etc/ Isn't this accomplished by parsing all of rpm -V and looking for files in /etc/ ? > - back up /home/me/ and /etc/ backup to where and how? backing up a user's space while outside of an enterprise network is still a huge problem with no reasonably accessible in-distro solution. Go back into the fedora archives and read up on previous discussions concerning the pybackpack Summer of Code project and the discussion on what an accessible in-distro backup facility needs to taste line. We need to solve the problem of providing a generally useful and accessible backup facility that can handle removable media, local harddrive, and network backup targets whenever a backup is requested before we attempt to automate backups strictly for fresh-install preparations. The issue of backups is much larger than pre-fresh-reinstall, and if you are only backing up /home to prep for a fresh install of a new Fedora release then I hope Fedora starts doing monthly releases to encourage people to backup their personal data atleast monthly. > - Clean install > - List my new packages and yum the diff > - Go through my lists of /home/me/ and /etc/ and move-reconfig from the backups Easily said... not easily done if there is system configuration syntax changes which requires hand editting. Didn't we just see this sort of thing happen in fc5 with the internal changes in apache's modules? > - Then muck around for the next month or so fine tuning all the stuff that I > don't know about and never will that naturally gets customised through use > - By which time it's time to go through the whole process again! (not quite:) > > So, what a blessing it would be to have a wizard that by a few clicks of a mouse > stepped you effortlessly and comprehensively through that pita I've just listed > above. rpmpkg log already exists rpm -V can tell you what configs have been customized rpm -qf can be used to see if files in /etc/ are unknown to rpm and thus may need to be backed up. writing a simple script to parse these isn't a big deal.... in fact this is the sort of thing perl is only good for. The big gaping hole in the set of technology needed for your wizard is a comprehensive and accessible backup technology that is easily configured and can handle whatever media a home system has access to for backing up hundreds of gigs of personal data. While I didn't have a chance to reiterate this as my #1 wishlist item for fc6, I take that opportunity now. The biggest missing piece of desktop user oriented technology in Fedora Core is in my opinion a robust and accessible backup/restore tool. -jef